v26.0 with Peter Witham

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey folks, WWDC 2025 is justaround the corner and I'll be
in the Cupertino area again.
I've got a jam packed scheduleplanned for WWDC week.
You'll find me out one more thing orcommunity kit, two of the best community
events that are happening that week.
But I especially wanna let youknow that on Monday, June 9th at
4:00 PM Pacific, I'll be recordinga very special milestone episode.

(00:22):
We're hitting our 200th episodeof Empower Apps at Community Kit.
We'll be talking about everythingannounced at the keynote and
the State of the Union, and Imay have a very special guest.
Be sure to sign up as space is limited.
The link is provided in our show notes.
I will be also hosting panels andhelping folks with server side swift
questions at one more thing and evendoing a live demo of Bushel at the

(00:44):
CommunityKit Indie Fair on Wednesday.
Speaking of bushel, version 2.1 isout and to celebrate both the new
release and WWDC, I'll be offering a50% off annual subscriptions for new
customers till the end of WWDC Week.
So definitely take advantageof this as soon as you can.
There's never been a better time tostreamline your workflow with Bushel

(01:08):
Links to all these events and morewill be in the show notes below.
Thank you for joining me and I hopeyou enjoy today's episode with Peter.
Welcome to anotherepisode of Empower Apps.
I'm your host, Leo Dion.
Today I am joined by Peter Witham.
Once again, Peter, thank you for makingyour 400th appearance on the show.

(01:32):
And I only look a day over 38.
This true.
For people who don't, listen to thispodcast, I'll let you introduce yourself.
thank you Leo having me back again.
Always look forward tothis and chatting with you.
Yeah, my name's Peter Winham.
I am primarily an iOS developer,although I also work with Android and
React native, but Swift is my thing'cause I have the Compile Swift,

(01:56):
podcast is what I'm primarily known for.
Shout out to my co-host on that, Jeff.
So yeah, that's probably where folkshave heard my, weird Texas accent before.
Texas accent.
I like it.
For people who, are subscribed to thenewsletter and follow me on social, I
will be in California once again for WWDC.

(02:19):
There's a bunch of events going on,including leading a panel and giving
a talk and talking about Bushel.
But I will be recording a special200th episode live from Community Kit.
You'll definitely want to check thatout since Peter won't be available.
I figure now's as good of a time asever to go over the year and what

(02:40):
we're thinking when it comes to WWDC.
I will also post a link to all thestuff so you can register there as well.
It's been a heck of a year, like inthe Apple space, where do we begin?
Not all good stuff and I feel like I wentover this in my year review of stuff that
I'm, I was worried about and it feelslike it all it's all come to a head.

(03:02):
Yeah.
What's your thoughts about it?
Doesn't It has been a veryup and down year, I think
Since the last, dub dc right?
So many things we couldcover in both directions.
I guess the one that stands out themost and, we'll get into the topics,
but, the fouled promises maybe ofAI that never really happened yet.

(03:27):
And things like this, but I feel likeit's not been one of the best years
for Apple and not necessarily alltheir fault as we'll probably get into.
But yeah, it's been a tough one.
Are you surprised by the AI stuff
I am.
The way Gruber described it, it's likethey never really demoed anything.

(03:48):
Is it that surprising orwhat part of you is shocked,
Yeah.
I think, I'm always one of thosepeople who, hey, whoever the company
is, but especially Apple, don'tgive it to us until it's ready.
And so therefore, if they don't feelit's ready, It's better to suffer
the brief beating that you get fromsaying something will be here and

(04:13):
then putting it all over the websiteand then, pulling it back again.
And I do feel that folks havebeen a little unfair, They
did give us something, right?
Not everything that it should have been.
And, hey, is that better than giving ussomething that was a complete disaster?
There's that side that says.

(04:33):
Siri was never that great to begin with.
Could it really have been any worse?
I'll take what I've got.
I have been using some of thestuff on the Mac, for example.
Like what?
services have been pretty good.
Especially for folks like ourselves whereit's okay, gimme a quick summary of this
document for podcast notes and thingslike that, i'm not expecting miracles

(04:55):
and I feel it was okay, but I think itwas the fact that it was really sold to
us as, Hey, this is really gonna bringyour iPhone, your watch, those other
platforms to life in a whole new way.
And it didn't,
the iPhone 16, that was the selling
Yeah.

(05:15):
I had the clip of, Snoop and Jason Mahomestrying to sell you an iPhone 16 with ai.
Yeah, like they really pushed it.
And you're right.
I don't think, I don't think that thosefolks out there, who are putting these,
lawsuits together about, Hey, I boughtthis because of this and it didn't happen.

(05:37):
It's we all know Apple'sgot a lot of lawyers.
Good luck with that.
Because there is that thing ofthey made you want to have it, but
they didn't force you to get it.
They just made you want it, whichis what Apple is excellent at.
Yeah.
it seems like it's a big hurdle forthem to get where every, I like, I
don't know what tools you use, butI've been using Claude and cursor

(05:59):
quite a bit and they're a great fit.
I don't know how Apple is gonna beable to compete with that, it almost
feels like too late in a lot of ways,for them to get into that space.
it
Now there's rumors that they'regonna provide SDKs for some
models, but I dunno, I'm we'll see.

(06:21):
Also, will we get it in theversion zero or will we have to
wait till version two and yada.
Yeah.
We never get anything in version zero.
Version zero is just the,police holder for the installer.
But I agree with you.
Apple.
Has to get it right next time is whatit comes down to in simple terms.

(06:41):
And it's interesting becauseyou mentioned about the SDKs.
I was thinking about this the otherday, is this Apple's way of saying, we
couldn't deliver so far on the promise,but if we open it up, we're sharing that
responsibility with the developers, right?
Maybe you can do it better than wecan, which I feel like is a smart thing

(07:04):
That's what they should do at this point,
'cause I'm with you.
I don't think they'll cashup with everybody else.
They certainly won't, gospeed ahead of everybody.
Not now, but the best they can hopefor is to catch up and continue to use
their platforms to push their services.
Which is what it comes down to.

(07:25):
Yep.
Yeah, and we know, like they've beendoing a lot with private cloud compute.
They talked about that actually atthe server side Swift conference
and how that's a big deal.
So I'm curious to see howthey might let developers plug
into that and be able to take
I think that is the one area where Appledoes have a better chance than anybody

(07:46):
getting ahead of everybody else in thesense of, maybe their, marketing spin
should be, your privacy still comes first.
That has been a big selling pointthat they've tried to spearhead,
absolutely.
I'd use them, if they'd have, I wasall excited to use these services and
that, and like I say, I've not beendisappointed with what I got, just that

(08:08):
I didn't get everything I was hoping for,
we did talk about Siri, so yeah, I'mnot expecting anything outta Siri
Yeah.
speaking of, things that they keeptrying to fix, iPad OS supposedly
is gonna have a redesign this year.
I just, I don't know what they'retrying to do with the iPad.
I don't think I'm thetarget audience for it.

(08:29):
I wish it was what I wantit to be, but it just isn't.
What's your thoughts on the redesign?
It really does depend whatthey mean by redesign for me.
they're looking at redesigning everything,
yeah, there's the visual
to go with a vision
And, like with everything Apple,usually when they, redesign these

(08:50):
things, It's nice, I like it.
It is still something they're verygood at as far as redesigning, iPad os
functionally, I use my iPad every day.
of course I'm a developer, It's not areplacement for my Mac and that is not
anything I expected it to be But theone thing that greatly disappoints me

(09:14):
is every time I plug in an externaldisplay to my iPad and it's okay, I
got another big iPad on the screen.
What value is that to me?
And a lot of that does fall, I think, todevelopers of third party apps because
it depends how they use that experience.
The I'm not gonna name and shame oranything like that, but there are

(09:35):
some that are like, Hey, you tried.
It's pretty good.
And there are others that are.
pretty terrible, so I don't need a bigiPad display, so I guess for me, I need,
what do you use your iPad for?
Yeah, engineering managerby trade is my thing.
So it's a lot of the managementtype things, classic example

(09:56):
is, the web browsers open a lot,
And it's handy, I'm one ofthose unfortunate people.
I have to use teams every day and, greatly
Yeah.
Welcome to
Yeah.
So it's great, let iPad handle teamsand Outlook and all that stuff, right?
That's a good idea.
That's what that's for.
Primarily, and it's because I'm usedto full screen apps at this point.

(10:19):
That's cool.
But I'd like windowed apps whenI plug in external display,
I think like for me, what burns meout about the iPad is just like.
You have to have theapp in the foreground.
Like copy and pastingbetween stuff is really hard.
Like compared with the ability Ihave to use my mouse and be able

(10:41):
to drag stuff around on the Mac.
Like I just lose a lot of
That's,
it makes it really difficult.
that's why I want multiple windows, liketrue multitasking, which I know isn't,
it depends how you want to interpret.
What multitasking is.
To me, multitasking is, likeyou said, multiple windows.
It, it's the Mac experience for me.

(11:02):
The you hit on a really goodexample of pane, actually.
The, the copy and the paste, andthat kind of feels like stage
manager, that thing that I never use.
And immediately turn off on everythingwas isn't this just a fancy clipboard?
Because it feels like that,
So I bought myself one ofthese portable monitors.

(11:24):
Oh, how do
you seen these before?
Yeah.
50 bucks, at Best Buy.
And I was like, let's see what happenswhen I hook this up to my iPhone.
You can't even do it in portrait mode,even though the iPhone is portrait,
it displays it like portrait, but inthe middle of the landscape display.

(11:44):
it only works if the iPhone is inlandscape and then it fills up the screen.
'cause it's oh, I wonder if I could takemy iPhone to a coffee shop with a display
and a keyboard and just start writing.
I was just curious and yeah, it's likestuff like those paper cuts that like,
yeah.
Make the experience
I had read these reports about,these possible enhancements

(12:04):
to using an external display.
And I got excited too.
I'm like.
Oh, great.
'cause I remember years ago, I can'tthink of who made it, maybe it was
Motorola, there was that phone thatyou could put in the back of a dock.
It was like the Nintendo Switch thing.
You put the phone in and thenboom, you got a computer.
So I was like, if Icould do that'd be great.
But yeah, you nail the problem,which is okay, there's always

(12:28):
something that makes it not work.
And I get it.
It's not necessarily Apple's fault, butit is because with these huge phones,
it's not a priority.
Of all the apps that I can think of thatI can use in landscape mode, fraction of
them, and certainly not the home screen.
My gosh, I used to love havingmy iPhone in landscape mode.

(12:49):
I remember that.
What's the deal?
Yeah.
I was gonna say something,but of course I forgot.
I don't know what theirplan is for the new design.
that goes to, the other big topic Iwanted to talk about that I've actually
started looking into how to implementthis properly in bushel, but we're
gonna get possibly year based versionnumbers, which I find interesting.

(13:15):
It's a little bit oddto do that for Gear 20.
26. But, the idea would be isthat this stepped WC everything is
gonna be version 26 for next year.
there might even be a rumor that theymight do that for the iPhones this year.
We'll see.
I think the iPhone morethan the OSS need to.

(13:36):
It's weird at this pointgoing with 17, 18, 19.
yeah, what do you think of that?
This came up pretty recently, right?
And immediately I thought,okay, this is a good idea.
And then I was like, oh, but that meanswe will miss out on the iPhone 20.
And doesn't that justhave a nice ring to it?
We had the iPhone X, the iPhone 10,whichever camp you want to be in.

(14:01):
We also missed out on iPhone
Oh yeah, that's true.
So it's like what, it's like they don'twant to commit to these wonderfully
magical numbers, but I'm actuallyin favor of the idea of the year
because, like so many of the tools,we use and now use the year number.
But it does, you're right in thatit also struck me, this doesn't

(14:24):
really work, it's because the waythe cycles work, here we are in
2025, dub DC just around the corner.
We are gonna get the new versions.
We all know this, right?
We're gonna call 'em 26 'causewe'll get them in the fall.
Okay.
That does that.
That's okay.
That kind of makes sense.
'cause we know we're gettingto see it way ahead of time.

(14:45):
But the perspective of thehardware, it feels a little bit
like car model years, right?
Oh, that's exactly what they're going for.
The idea would be is that anythingbut the budget phone would be
for the next year, and then thebudget phone, like the 16 E right.
Would've been the 25
yeah, exactly.
And so I think it's, I think I'm okaywith it, but we'll see how it plays out.

(15:11):
what they need to do, and I knowI've said this every year, but what
they need to do is just not have somany versions of everything, right?
Consumers can keep it simple.
I want the iPhone 26, I wantthe iPad 26 in size X. you and
I have spoken about this before.
It's no longer that simple thing of Iwant an iPad of one of these two sizes.

(15:34):
I want an iPhone of one of the,by simplifying the numbers, you've
not simplified the actual problem
Do you think we'll get hints of afoldable phone in our Swift UI code?
I hope so.
And the reason I say that is becauseI think to us the developer community.
We wouldn't be surprised as far as we areconcerned, it's a done deal at some point.

(15:57):
So we won't be shocked or surprised.
It'll just be, ah, there it is.
And sometimes I do wonder if companiesApple, in this case put those
little things in there for people tofind, to see what the reaction is.
Oh, okay.
Should we do that?
Because like we were saying earlierabout everything else, if Apple does a
foldable, it better be the Apple we usedto know and love, where it's like you

(16:24):
have made one better than everybody else.
Because, along with that,they're gonna charge more for it.
no question.
And
it's gonna be
I would be a what?
I think that's the thingis would I use one.
Probably I probably wouldn't.
'cause I love my iPhone 15.
I went down from the maxto the, to just the pro,

(16:46):
Okay.
I think for me was one of the bestdecisions, was like, this is fantastic,
this is what I should have done.
So I don't want to foldable,but I think it'll be in there.
I think we'll have traces ofsome mystery hardware that
will clearly be the foldable.
Just like we've said beforewhen they said, stop focusing
on actual physical screen sizes,

(17:09):
Yeah.
What do you think?
do you think we're years away
What would that look like?
Yeah.
It's so hard, right?
Because all the mockups thateverybody does for these things
is always the typical not thinkinglike Apple, oh, let's just take two
iPhones and sandwich them together,
Apple will either figure out the creaseproblem or they'll work around the crease

(17:30):
problem, which is the Apple way, right?
Where it's oh yeah, we can'thave see-through glasses.
Let's put a screen on theoutside to show your fake face.
Or, oh, we can't get rid of a notch,so let's just make it an island
and have a little widget at there.
So like I feel okay, what are they gonnado with the crease in a creative way that
right.
the
I thought about this and I was like, okay.
I've just never liked this idea of acrease that's like a fold, that actual

(17:54):
crease on the Samsung about where it is.
Have you looked at an actual foldable
I feel like they could oh, applewill be, is they, if anyone could
make a seamless screen that just.
It looks like it snapstogether, it would be them.
But maybe they can make a dynamicisland that runs all the way along
that middle piece that's thin.

(18:16):
Or something like
And because, I was thinking the other day,I was like, okay, clearly I'm not Apple,
but what's an Apples way and an Apishway is have it fold the other way so that
the screens are on the outside and thatcrease could become a magic island that
I can read when my phone is laying flat
Do you know what I mean?

(18:36):
Yep.
if you thought of this alreadyand that's what you're doing,
I didn't steal the plans.
No, they should
if they haven't thought ofit, hey gi, gimme a call.
We'll put
yeah.
I'll say if I just solvedthe problem, it's all right.
I'll just take 1% of anything,
did you, so you do some Android,
Yeah.
did you watch any of Google
I didn't watch it, but I have read Igotta say, for me, I was like, Google,

(19:02):
I think may have a better year thanApple right now, but again, assuming
they can deliver the magic, whoeverdelivers the magic's gonna get it.
But certainly it feels like all theright promises are there from Google.
Love more, hate them.
Just Apple right now.
feel like, Google.
Yeah, they're so smart to havetheir conference just before.

(19:24):
Because they can say even if they,accidentally now what Apple's gonna
announce, they can still say wedid it first, so I'm excited for
what Google's doing this year.
I don't wanna be afull-time Android developer.
No offense to anybody.
It's not my thing.
I'm a Swift
if you do want to be a full-timemanager or a developer, you skip tools.
That way you can

(19:45):
Oh yeah.
a previous
Aren't those guys great?
They are doing such a phenomenal job.
And I know folks that have usedthe Skip tools and of course, like
you say, you've interviewed them.
I've interviewed them.
I really think that they have a greatsolution and that is probably the
and I'm really excited to see now wehave the ecosystem steering committee.
That's another smart thing, right?

(20:06):
swift has not been pushed in.
In the sense of realizing it'savailable for other platforms
especially embedded stuff.
Like folks like
I don't know if youfollow the Edge OS stuff
Yeah.
And things like that.
'Cause hey, if I could write, and Ioften say this with the folks that I
hang out with, if I could write Swiftas my solution anywhere for anything,

(20:29):
you better believe that's what I do.
I just don't believe in havingto jump through hoops to make it
work, which is why those, you'resaying about the SKIP tools, it's
great, you've solved my pain point.
Well done.
Yeah.
So one thing I wanted to mentionthat we talked about version numbers
is I feel like the yearly cycleis weird, I don't know how to put

(20:50):
it, but I get it, it's a marketingthing, but at the same time what,
Does it?
and what I also feel like we're pushingfeatures sometimes that nobody wants.
An unfair
and it's like just to havesomething to show off for the
new model, blah, blah, blah.
And yeah, but you guys haven't fixedlike all these issues on the previous os.

(21:14):
And I think, two thoughts onthat is yeah you're putting
an undue pressure on yourself.
Oh, it's that time of year again, peopleare gonna expect new hardware, people
are gonna expect the new OSS in WWDC,knowing that they won't be available.
But also, like we said, last year,they still had most of the year.

(21:37):
this is part of the other bigger problem.
You have folks that are driving everythingbased on the money side of the equation.
And you've created this artificialenterprise of once a year, twice
a year you do this as opposedto ship it when it's ready.

(21:57):
I think these versions need s years.
Like what hap, we had the iPhone s'slike we need like iOS what, like 18
Yeah.
I don't mean that literally, butlike we're doing these every year
and like we still have bugs inversion four that haven't been
someone asked me the other day, what'sthe biggest thing you want this year?

(22:20):
And it's the same answer I always give,which is, Hey, I love those years when
they just truthfully say, nothing major.
It's a bug fix year.
As developers we're like, fantastic.
Thank you so much.
But I get it to all thetop level sweet folks.
It's the marketing thing, right?
from fixing bugs.
How does that ship a new phone?
But you do lose customersif you don't fix bug.

(22:43):
That's the problem that
until now.
Because I think that's thething is the competition has.
Never been as fierce as it is now.
And people, we are reaching a tippingpoint where things are now so expensive
that you folks are now saying, yougotta give me a reason to buy it.

(23:05):
I'm not just gonna get,but it's a new iPhone.
Okay, take my money.
It's a new iPad.
Take my money right now,because of lots of situations.
It's, why do I have to get it?
And you've gotta give me thatnew shiny, even this thing
of, it's got a better camera.

(23:25):
I don't think it works as,to sell it like it used to.
Do.
If you think about it like contentcreators like you and myself, do we
buy a new $1,100 camera every year?
I'm sure some folks do, but I don't,
right.
and I think the average consumer now islike starting to realize how expensive

(23:48):
these things are and what you get for it.
So I don't think the yearlycycle necessarily works anymore.
It does it, and in the, in thatsense, like you say, I agree.
Give me a, an on off cycle forbug fixes In software, I would
be more inclined to buy hardware.
If you gave me a two year cycle,wouldn't feel so bad and I'd

(24:12):
have paid off the other one,
I think the iPhone just, thereisn't gonna be that much more
innovation in the smartphone.
Not having said that, I dothink it's not a device that's
gonna go away anytime soon.
when the smartphonecame out, I don't think.
Sales of computers went down.
I just think more people had accessto technology with the smartphone.

(24:35):
AI is not gonna take away the smartphone.
Yeah, you don't want the
having a screen.
We want a screen, we want somethingwe can look at regardless of
whether there's AI behind it
look at the ipo, the iPod.
That was in theory, a great ideawith no screen, no controls, but.
Maybe it was just way tooahead of its time in that.
Yeah.
yeah.

(24:55):
Yeah, I'm, at this point, if you triedto get me to use anything that didn't
have some kind of input system, otherthan it relying on my weird accent
voice, it's just not gonna sell on me.
It's just not gonna happen.
I think there was a joke someone saidthe other day about, they stopped
the car project because you couldn't,it wasn't recognizing when someone

(25:17):
said, please stop, turn left, butI agree with you and I think the
phone device is not gonna go away.
But I recognize on the flip side,you only sell so many so often
I'm sure Apple's doing just fine,but there will be a tipping point.
Yeah.

(25:37):
Let's go for it.
Do you, when you say Costa iPhone,are you talking specifically
about tariffs or was there
no, I was just talking.
I try not to touch onanything close to politics.
It's such a dangerous area, butanything that raises the price of the
phone, even if it's just, apple wantsto raise the price, I think it's a

(26:02):
dangerous gamble let me put it this way.
I think a lot of folks.
when they buy the huge television, right?
hey priorities, right?
And so do you need to spend 1200,1300 plus on a phone every year?
Do you think people buy newphones every year still?

(26:24):
I think there's enough.
Okay.
this model, working for me, it'susually I won't entertain the idea
for at least a couple of years.
That's what I do.
And even I got a 15 and it's fantastic.
I have no reason to change it.
But I'm sure there are folks who arejust, I want to have the latest one.

(26:47):
There's enough of them.
Otherwise they would, it's likethose spam phone calls and everyone
says, how do people fall for this?
Why do they keep doing this?
Because enough people.
do it, that it's worththem to keep doing that.
I'm not saying the iPhone is spamfolks before you're right in, I'm
just saying that whatever it is,there's always enough people to buy
into the business model, otherwisethe business model wouldn't exist.

(27:09):
I think it's hurt the
I think it's mostly people who haveiPhone elevens and are upgrading.
I don't think it's people who arelike, I have the 14, I need the 15.
Yeah.
And I think, it's driven by the youngermarket, younger than ourselves, Leo.
If we are, if we're fruitful, I wishI had that kind of disposable income,
but then I'd probably be takingvacations if I could do that as well.

(27:34):
Yeah.
I don't, yeah, maybe they'llraise the cost of the iPhone.
They've already raised the cost ofthe cheapest iPhone, obviously, so I.
That's been the way they've done it.
I think that's the elephant in the roomright now, more so than the prices,
and I think that's gonna be one ofthe sticky situations Apple's probably

(27:55):
gonna be in for the next rest of the
yeah, and I,
regardless of politics.
It's just, a bad
Yeah.
At the end of the day, it comesdown to it's still the consumer
that gets hurt in the middle.
Regardless of how you get there, whethera price increase is forced on you,
or they choose to, or, any of thesecompanies or, whatever the situation,

(28:17):
it's gonna be us that, that suffer, right?
It always is.
And I think that more than anything maybewould drive a slower rate of iPhone sales.
I think it definitely gets worsewhen you talk about whatever the

(28:38):
plans are for the vision Pro.
You couldn't convince enough peopleto spend three K on this now.
The price of a phone goes up.
Surely at some point the priceof everything else hardware
is gonna go up as well, right?
Yeah
And on that note, it will affect mewhen it comes to Max because we're

(28:58):
pretty regular upgrade now Max, right?
I got the M four.
I love it.
But by the time the M
What kind of M four did you
the M four Pro Mac Mini,
Oh, I really want to get
I got the 64 gig version or whatever itis, 48, whatever that top number was.
I got that one in the Pro with,a one terabyte drive inside

(29:22):
and I'm using the externals.
That's awesome.
I have no reason to changethis thing anytime soon.
for what we do as developersand content creators, Xcode will
always take some time to compile.
rendering video and thingslike that, it's gonna keep me
probably
And that,
same here with my M1
there you go.
The M ones.

(29:42):
So imagine an M four studio, right?
You are not gonna need, youmight wanna replace that thing
every couple of years but in yourheart, you don't need to, right?
And I feel that's the same problem aswith the phone and everything else.
You nailed it when you said from ahardware perspective, these things
are now so mature that we are not.

(30:03):
You and I are old enough toremember the early days of I
got a 66 megahertz intel chip.
Pre SSDs, pre lc, like CRT monitors.
We've come a long way.
But that goes back to, like you said, withthat phone in my pocket, I got more power
in my pocket than I ever dreamed I would.
What are we gonna see with Vision Pro?

(30:25):
Like where can they possiblygo with that device?
You didn't get one, did you?
Okay.
have not tried the demo.
Here's the reason why I'll be completelytransparent with the audience.
Because I know if I try one, that's it.
I'm done.
Oh, you
I'm done.
Take my money.
And
Wow.
why I haven't, because I know thebenefits for me, the huge benefit

(30:48):
would be the one that a lot of folks,mention, Tim Mitra, for example, he's
always saying about the huge desktop.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
If I had that, I'd be set, but I also knowthat enough people say about the weight,
it's oh, that's why I don't have one.
Not to mention that I can't justifythe cost, but I did say to myself,

(31:10):
oh, V two might be a thing, but.
I think part of the question maybe you'reasking is there will be a V two, right?
Or what are they gonna do withthe V two to actually sell it?
The big part of the problem, obviously,is that the developers did not flock
to it like they thought they would, Ifeel like with that product, what pushes

(31:33):
me away is, besides the lack of apps,is the the thousands of paper cuts.
I feel like I'd use it and belike, oh, but This is a problem.
This is a problem.
This is a problem.
It's just after all, I'm just gonnabe like, I don't want to use this.
And we've heard reports of peoplewho've owned them and just left them
in their drawer because they're justlike, I'm sick and tired of dealing

(31:55):
I'd love to know the percentageof people, and I hope it's low,
but if they're honest, they said.
I'm still using it to feel likeI got my money's worth out of it.
And I know that be because I knowthere were folks use it to watch,
essentially like an infinite big screen.
And I bet that's amazing.

(32:16):
That's another reason why yeah, if Iwas to see the latest mission Impossible
on one of those, and my whole roomis a screen, I'm gonna feel like
it's the best thing I ever bought.
exactly.
so there is that.
But I also know Jeff, the co-host onthe compulsory of podcast, he has one.
But I lived through his experience ofspending a long time crafting his app.

(32:36):
Shout out to Jeff, by the way, buddy.
Spent, I watched him spending a long timemaking his app work exceptionally well.
On the Vision Os and then aftera while saying, how's that going?
And it's what?
Why did I bother?
And I get it,
So does he have a vision pro?
does.
Does he use
He says he does.

(32:57):
And I believe him.
What does he use it for?
yeah.
That was the thing.
I didn't, it was like,okay, I'll believe you.
I won't ask too many questions, we would,have you come on the podcast against him.
You can ask him.
'Cause I feel like there will bea great conversation between the
two of you about the Vision Pro,
I'd be curious like what?
But he does, I think, for him tospeak on his behalf, but obviously

(33:18):
as a developer, he spent a lot oftime with his app and felt like.
Wow, what a waste of time thatwas, and again, folks, I'm
just interpreting what he said.
it wasn't worth the developmenttime, and he's not the only
one I've heard that from.
And I think, like you are saying,that's been the thing to touch on
it, the death by a thousand cuts.
Yeah.
As we know with all Apple devices, right?

(33:40):
Let's be honest, whether Apple likes it ornot, it's the third party apps that make
or break it, it made the iPhone, right?
Not to say that the iPhone's not afantastic phone, but it didn't really
become useful to like myself untilgreat, now I got apps on it, right?
And that's what the VisionPro clearly needs as well.

(34:03):
But I don't blame developers if they tookthe stance of, you know what Apple, we
all know you don't like us developers.
You really never give us.
The attention because we arenot, we don't put the money
in your pocket in that sense.
Yes, we do.
Because look at the app store, right?

(34:23):
And Apple makes huge amountof money from services.
That's a whole other conversation.
But why would I help Apple when Ifeel like they're not really doing a
whole lot to help me except just liein their pockets with my hard work?
You know what I mean?
yeah.
I know, even diehard developers gospend a three grand on a vision pro.

(34:46):
right,
response
or
like, mine, I'll, I'd rather havespent three grand on a phenomenal
Mac mini, which is what I did.
And love this thing for years.
The Vision Pro is a V one, assuming.
It's still the plan.
It'll be redundant at somepoint year or next year, but

(35:08):
my Mac mini lives on, right?
Exactly.
That's the way I would look at it.
I'd rather spend money ona Mac than on a vision pro.
'cause I know I'd use it
yeah.
Or for that matter,that's two plus iPhones.
Exactly.
I know for yourself and likein my household, we are two

(35:29):
plus iPhone families, right?
Most people are, I think at this point, ifyou've got one, you've got more than one.
And so great, I'll upgradeall of those this year.
not all have to sit in theliving room with headsets on,
yeah.
do you think we're gonna seechanges to the app store at
this is

(35:50):
of, legal
yeah, I was gonna say, this is one of themore, I think, interesting areas, right?
We've seen so many changes, Overthe last year we've seen so many
changes, many of which Europe, noquestion, have forced the issue.
Putting aside whether, Ifeel that's right or wrong.

(36:11):
There have been changes and there will bemore changes because once you open that
door, you don't close it again, right?
The US I think has had it better.
And some, other countries that are notEurope are still, locked in the sense that
they are locked in on these platforms.

(36:32):
But I also think if, let's saythe situation arose and take
the Asian and US markets, right?
If they were to suddenly be forcedto open up third party app stores,
I don't think it would be a good id.
It wouldn't be a good experience.

(36:53):
for better or worse.
And you know me, the audience knows me.
I'm all for, hey, fair competitionis a good thing, right?
But I also think security andprivacy is more important.
Now I get it.
You could argue that.
Okay, privacy wise, apple stillhas my data and they might be

(37:16):
the nice people in the room.
Right now we don't knowthat's it in the future.
I'm not claiming it is I do value nothaving to worry that if an app makes
it on my phone or my iPad, and I'm notincluding the Mac very specifically there,
if it makes it on my iPhone or my iPad,there's a better than average chance.

(37:37):
I'm good.
Yes, there are still some problems,things get through, but it's as
someone who works on multiple platformsas a job, I can honestly say, it
is infinitely worse on Android.
Is it really
i.
I had an Android phone and I wantedto really love it because like the,

(37:59):
one of the test phones I've got nowis a Samsung and it's beautiful.
The screen, the cur, it's just fantastic.
It's if I didn't have aniPhone, this is what I have.
But.
Then I think about the appstores, and then I think about,
Android platform and that.
So yeah, there will bechanges to the app stores.
I think apple will always claimit's gonna hurt them, right?

(38:21):
You're cutting off, weare bleeding to death.
Okay.
Apple, quit it.
No one's gonna believe that you'rebleeding to death anytime soon.
But they do have a good argument, Hey,this way the users feel more confident.
I can't argue with that.
I think that's a validargument right there.
But what do you think from like a appbuilder's perspective, do you think

(38:43):
it'll get better or worse for us?
I think most people aregonna stick with Apple.
as somebody who only is onApple, I would say I don't trust
the app store as a consumer.
I just think there's a lot of sketchyapps, on the app store, so I don't even
feel like I'm paying for decent security.

(39:06):
It sounds like you have more experienceon Android, so maybe I'm mistaken.
So maybe we could get morepremium apps, stores that are
better quality apps and stuff.
I don't know.
But yeah it's a unfortunatesituation we're in and how we got
here as far as like they've beenpressed and pressed and have just.

(39:27):
Que they just continue to squeeze andthink they can get more out of it.
I do.
and I think the iPhone's been hurt by it,
Oh, absolutely I do.
And I do say that I think for.
Many different reasons.
Like you said, death by a thousand cuts.
I jokingly say it, but Ialso believe too, welcome to

(39:49):
Microsoft of the nineties folks.
You, once you dominate a market,it's not the question of whether
you earned that success or not.
'cause hey I think they did.
I think Apple deserves everything they gotbecause they came up with the solutions
to problems we didn't know we had.
But when we realized we did, wow.

(40:12):
Did it turn the worldaround for everybody, right?
Yes, of course.
I'm specifically talkingabout the iPhone here, right?
And not, I'm not talking aboutwhether I think it's right or wrong.
It did turn everythingaround for everybody, right?
Not everybody had a cell phone backwhen they were, super simple phones
and everybody, most people do now.

(40:35):
And so it's opened up peoplearound the world to the world,
which is nothing but a good thing.
But with that inevitably becomes okay,
but now you think that we shouldjust accept everything you do.
And that's acceptable to a certainpoint until they, in this case, apple.

(40:57):
And that's why I say welcome to Microsoftof the nineties, until you start to
abuse that and you start to, Apple'salways believed its own hype, but now
it really believes it's a reality.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
I don't know, I'm a bit cynical aboutit just 'cause from what I've seen,
the apps that are the big ones on theapp store tend to be doom scrolling

(41:20):
video apps or like gambling apps.
And that's all I see.
As far as what are the big hits?
So it's great, you've got addictiveapps, but like at the same time what
happened to the really, I don't know,maybe it's just the market has changed,
but it just seems like those are thehits and like your productivity app,

(41:44):
or, more creative games seem to begetting squeezed outta the market.
And I think I put a lot of thatblame on frankly, the unpredictable
nature of App store review.
If we've got 10 Tetris gloss,that is all that should be allowed

(42:05):
on the store is we have got themaximum amount of Tetris glos.
I'm not saying that, because the 11th onecould be groundbreaking, pivotal in some
way, but what I am saying is it doesn'tfeel like the rules for the app store.
And I know we as developers Iknow I'm preaching to the choir.
The rules seem to apply one way for somefolks, one way for another set of folks,

(42:31):
and then we can't help but touch uponthis, if you are one of those companies
that Apple's decided they've got a beefwith you, it's a third set of rules and
we will make out that to let you in.
We'll, just.
Kill Apple as a company, ofwhich none of us believe it.
But it doesn't matter ifyou've got enough lawyers,

(42:54):
yeah.
I do think that the biggest problemis just the financial structure
of how the app store was set up.
This is what we've ended up with, wherewe have games looking for whales and
things like that more than anything else.
And I think that's really where theproblem has reared its head and like
you said, app store review, et cetera.

(43:16):
it's to Apple's advantage, right?
That they make a ton of money
Of course.
And I don't fault them for that.
I think Apple deserves apercentage of sales because they
are doing an awful lot for us.
Even if it doesn't feel like it,anyone like us who's ever put an app
in the app store suddenly appreciatesI had to do zero clever marketing to

(43:39):
have a nice page in the app store.
there are so many useful things.
They deserve something for that.
They're hosting this stuff.
what does that percentage,what should it be?
I don't know.
But they deserve something.
But they don't, if I'm giving themsomething, they shouldn't be able
to dictate all the rules to me.

(43:59):
As a someone putting an app in, Ishould follow the guidelines that
I agreed to and laid out and theyshould be clear for me to understand
so that if you accept it or reject it.
It's okay, I get it.
I pushed too far.
Look at the amount of,you said it yourself.
Look at the amount of adverts thatyou see for things famously, certain

(44:22):
games that didn't exist, thatappeared in adverts and then Hey,
we actually made a game of this now.
That is Apple's fault.
'cause
They're the gatekeepers ofwhat gets in and what gets out.
that's why they tell us theirmonopoly is a good thing.
And yet they don't demonstrate usingthat monopoly for the right reasons to,
I think this, I don't careabout the 30% cut, whatever it

(44:45):
If I, it's like arguing about the$90 or whatever it is, $99 a year
to be in the developer program.
right.
Hey, if you're not making $99 ayear, I. I'll be transparent, right?
I have a full-time day job.
I don't make enough from the app storeto cover my yearly developer, cost.

(45:05):
But that's not why I am doing it.
But if I was doing it, Iwould take it serious enough.
I would feel like at that pointI'm doing something wrong.
So before we close out, I wanted to askyou, what have you been working on lately?
Yeah.
So over the past year inparticular, I have been doing
a lot more game development.
I actually did release like my Endershurdles game, which was just a fun,

(45:28):
Hey, could we make SpriteKit work?
That then ended up as a, ohdang, we got a real game.
I finally released it.
I moved away from SpriteKit,and went into like goodo.
So I did finally release it on multipleplatforms because everybody wanted me to.
But I have been doing a lot ofgame development because it's
my, when you do mobile apps.

(45:50):
Every day as a job.
At some point you're like, Idon't wanna do mobile app in the
evening necessarily every night.
So I do game development because I'mfree to do whatever I want and it
doesn't matter if I ship it or not.
so you're talking aboutGau and Sprite kit.
Explain to me the differences

(46:10):
For those, Sprite kit is Apple's, Icall it Apple's Gaming 2D technology.
And then of course there'svarious other ones for 3D this is
everybody kept pushing me like, youshould make this for Vision Pro.
And I'm like, what's the point?
Just to circle it back.
it's their 2D gaming technology andit is a lot harder to work with than

(46:32):
it should be because it's not a game.
Engine it is more, hey, if you wannamake a game engine with it, you can.
So you've gotta do all that work, right?
But if you look at others like,there are three that I use,
Gado, unity and Unreal Engine.
They are pre-built engines.
I just have to go make my thing right.

(46:54):
And interestingly doing Gadot has made melearn, GD script, which is very close to
working with Ruby and things like that.
And so it's huh, in fact, Jeff and Idid a compiled Swift episode recently
where we were talking about you go dosomething else and you find it has side
benefits to your mainstream work, right?

(47:17):
And so that's what happened there.
Not Sprite Kit turned out not tobe my thing because it was taking
too long to do basic things.
And that's a whole othersubject about how Apples.
Not embracing gaming platforms the waythey would like you to think they are.
I'll say it, I say itevery time, so apologies.
Apple, just by Unity already and makeSwift the main programming language,

(47:41):
and I will back you a thousand percent.
So Gau is a different engine,
engine,
but you can use Swift in it.
you can, it's not the main language, butthere are some very smart folks out there.
I'll find the link.
We'll put the link in the show notes.
you can use Swift by way of a bridge.
the cohost on Compulsive podcast,Jeff, he actually embraced this.

(48:02):
I tried to embrace it, but it gotto that thing of I was doing too
much work to get Swift workingbefore I actually made anything.
And that to me is always thesign that something's wrong.
Okay.
it's really good.
It's coming along in leaps and bounds.
There have been conference talks about it.
Apologies.
I can't remember thegentleman's name off hand.

(48:24):
Who did it.
We'll find it for the links.
It's really good.
And in fact, there's also an iPad appnow that you can use to make cado,
Oh, that's
You mean I can code them on the iPad?
Interesting.
Not really something I want,but interesting nonetheless.
But that's what I wanna see.
I wanna see Swift taken seriouslyin these other arenas, right?

(48:48):
Game development in particular, becauseyeah, I can type swift a lot quicker
than learning another language, right?
So that's what I've beenworking on a lot lately.
I still have apps.
I've got like my JobFinderTracker app, which is, swift
and Swift data and, all the in,
what platform.
it's on iOS

(49:09):
Okay.
I do wanna make it multi-platform,meaning iPad, a better iPad
experience, true native iPadexperience and Mac at some point.
I just don't feel it has the corefeatures yet that it needs to have.
And so it's kind, that thing of,okay, let's get one platform.
Right now I do the interfacesfor the others because it uses

(49:32):
cloud kit and everything else,so your data goes everywhere.
But it's just not theexperience I want it to be yet.
Yep.
And I will say I haven't migrated it toSwift six 'cause I'm a little afraid.
Peter, thank you so much for coming on.
Sorry you won't be in Californiathis year, but one of these years.
I'll have to get you

(49:52):
I almost made it to deep Dish thisyear, except for last minute, work
commitments almost made it, but yes.
Yeah.
Thank you, Leo.
we will make it buddy.
We will make it and be in thesame location at some point.
It will happen, that would be fantastic.
But as always, thank you forhaving me back on the show.
It's always a pleasure.

(50:12):
We always have so much to talkabout when we get together
and, just thoroughly enjoy it.
It's always interesting, so thank you.
And we'll put links to you andyour compile swift stuff and live
streams, et cetera, in the show notes.
So be sure to check that out.
Like I said, I will be, doing a specialrecording Monday, June 9th to talk about

(50:35):
the events of the first day at dubbedup, special 200 episode at Community Kit.
I'll have a link to preserve your spot.
You do have to reserve your spot free.
So go check that out.
I'll be doing a panel at one more thing.
On Tuesday, I'm gonna be showcasingbushel at the Indie Fair Community Kit.
So definitely check that out.

(50:56):
Bushel is gonna be on sale, till the 23rd.
we just released Bushel twopoint 10, 2.10, 2.1 0.0.
So check that out.
We added a menu bar, weredid the snapshot interface.
It's really great.
if you're gonna test out Mac Os.

(51:17):
26, you'll definitely want to, graba copy of bushel and give it a try.
you get 50% off if you subscribe,for your yearly subscriptions.
So take a look at that.
I'll have links to all that stuff.
And the show notes.
If you enjoyed this episode,please and subscribe and post a
review, in your podcast player.

(51:38):
Consider joining our Patreonto get these episodes early and
also subscribe to our newsletter.
Alright, that's it.
We'll see you, everybody in California.
Talk to you later.
Bye.

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