July 7, 2025 • 45 mins
Hi!! I would love to hear from you!
The hidden epidemic of chronic pain affects millions, but women in midlife bear a disproportionate burden—often with inadequate support from conventional healthcare. In this episode we discuss this revolutionary understanding of pain science with expert Mandy Ryle, who combines professional expertise with personal experience navigating her own chronic pain journey.
Mandy challenges our fundamental understanding of pain, exposing the outdated "mechanistic view" of the body that originated during the Industrial Revolution. This paradigm shift reveals why tissue damage and pain are only loosely correlated—explaining why 40-50% of midlife adults have joint changes visible on MRIs yet experience zero pain.
For women navigating the complexities of perimenopause, family responsibilities, and societal pressures, chronic pain becomes a perfect storm of biological, psychological, and social factors. Estrogen's role as a natural pain modulator, the perfectionist personality traits common among chronic pain sufferers, and the validation gap many women face in medical settings all contribute to this complex experience.
Most powerfully, Mandy offers practical strategies that work—not by "fixing broken parts" but by addressing the whole person. Movement reclamation, community support, nervous system regulation, and developing interoceptive awareness become pathways to significant improvement, even when pain cannot be completely eliminated.
Whether you're personally struggling with persistent pain or supporting someone who is, this conversation provides both the science and soul of effective pain management. Discover how to move beyond simply surviving pain toward reclaiming vibrancy, agency, and joy in everyday life.
Move Beyond Pain Roadmap Ebook: https://empoweredself.me/move-beyond-pain-roadmap-ebook/
Struggling with a pain issue? Schedule a chat to learn more about holistic pain care: https://empoweredself.me/free-strategy-session/
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YouTube Movement for Healing. Free video resources for holistic pain care:
https://www.youtube.com/@movementforhealing
The Yin Yoga Podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2q0Xto3mxbcv2sczyJbcvn?si=505e4ee91a5a48f7
On Itunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-yin-yoga-podcast/id1518403758
Moving Beyond Pain Facebook Group: A free community for those seeking holistic pain care resources and guidance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Empowered
Ease, where we celebrateinspiring women who are making a
significant impact in the livesof others.
Today, I'm thrilled to announceMandy Ryle as our next guest.
She's an extraordinaryindividual who is transforming
how we approach and managepersistent pain.
Mandy's innovative and holisticprogram is a lifeline for
(00:27):
individuals, particularly womenin midlife, grappling with
chronic pain.
Her approach is a harmoniousblend of nervous system
re-education, mindsetcultivation, nutrition, coaching
and exercise.
Mandy's expertise doesn't juststem from her comprehensive
understanding of painneuroscience and her
(00:49):
professional credentials as ayoga teacher and strength and
conditioning coach, but it'salso deeply personal Living with
a chronic pain conditionherself.
Mandy's journey infuses herwork with compassion and
authenticity, offering herclients not just relief but
empowerment and renewed vitality.
(01:11):
Beyond her transformativeconsulting, mandy offers a
wealth of resources, includingthe Move Beyond Pain Roadmap
ebook and her popular YouTubechannel Movement for Healing.
As the host of the Yin Yogapodcast, she continues to share
holistic approaches to wellnesswith a broad audience.
So join us as Mandy sharesinsights into her unique methods
(01:34):
, ongoing projects and how sheenvisions a world where pain is
managed not just physically butholistically, leading to a more
vibrant and fulfilling life.
Welcome, mandy, to EmpoweredEase.
Hello and welcome back toEmpowered Ease.
(01:55):
Our guest today is Mandy Ryle.
Hello, mandy, welcome, I'm sohappy you're here.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you for having me, Jen.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thanks for coming.
So you are kind of specializingin chronic pain.
So before we get into that, whydon't you tell us a little bit
about yourself and kind of yourjourney that got you to this
point?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, I would say my journey started with yoga, which
started with me being a singlemom of a one and three year old
in my late 20s and at the time Iwas a professional musician.
But I was really interested insome of the ways that yoga
practices could help my studentsbecause I was a voice teacher
(02:47):
help my students because I was avoice teacher.
And so I really got into yoga,which was great because my I
would.
When my kids were napping, Iwould put on a video and it just
kind of saved me, it helped mewith my anxiety, it helped me to
feel empowered.
So I got into yoga, actuallymore than I was into music.
I ended up doing a teachertraining, started teaching and
2010, I opened a studio and um,it was rough.
(03:11):
It's hard.
Owning a yoga studio is reallyhard.
I was in like a pretty horriblerelationship at that point and
raising two little kids and umdeveloped a chronic pain issue
around 2015.
Developed a chronic pain issuearound 2015, which was pretty
life-changing, as I'm sureanyone will tell you who has had
(03:36):
a chronic pain issue, and youtell yourself that you're not
going to let it keep you down,you're not going to let it
change you or shrink you, butdespite all of your best efforts
, that's exactly what it does.
So spent many, many 1000s ofdollars hours on all kinds of
different strategies andtreatments for this chronic pain
(03:58):
issue, and it just got worseand worse and worse.
In 2020, I ended up doing anadvanced teacher training with a
teacher called Jules Mitchell,and she is really heavily into
the biomechanics of yoga, butalso pain science, and so that
was really my first introductionto pain science and I it was
like finding my soulmate right.
(04:20):
It's this combination ofneuroscience, understanding
biopsychosocial factorscontributing to pain,
understanding the holisticnature of pain and therefore how
yoga and other lifestylefactors can contribute to
feeling better, which I employedand had a pretty haphazard
(04:42):
approach for quite some time,eventually ended up doing a pain
science mentorship with mymentor, who's in Canada, neil
Pearson, and that was reallywhen I developed the strategies
that I needed to get relief, andI can happily say that, even
though I am someone who stillhas a chronic pain issue, anyone
(05:02):
who has chronic pain willalways have chronic pain.
I'm someone who still has achronic pain issue.
Anyone who has chronic painwill always have chronic pain.
It has not shrunk my life.
I live pretty freely.
I live without fear.
Yes, I experience painintermittently, I have flares,
just like anybody who's had apain issue, but I can't honestly
say that I've overcome my painissue, and so, combined with
(05:24):
what I learned in my mentorshipand my education and my own
experience, I now help people toemploy those exact same
practices in a customized way sothat they can feel better too,
because there's a lot you can do.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Oh, that's beautiful.
That's beautiful, okay.
So I have some questions thatmaybe you could just like break
down a little bit for us.
So I this is maybe my firsttime really hearing about like
pain science, which makes mereally excited, and I- love all
what what you and like what itinvolves, all the things I love.
but can you explain or maybejust break that down a little
(05:58):
bit for those of us that aremaybe a little bit newer?
Like, what are some of thefactors involved in like the?
What are some of the bio-socialfactors involved in pain and
you know what?
Yeah, explain that a little bitmore for people who may be new
to that idea.
Or maybe what the new, whatsome of the neuroscience, or?
Yeah, sure, I'd love to.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So I mean, obviously it's a huge topic, but let me
see if I can give just kind of aprimer so you have a sense of
what pain neuroscience educationis.
So we acknowledge, at least youknow, maybe in the last 40 or
50 years that at least in thescientific community not in the
(06:40):
medical community certainly, anddefinitely not in the general
public that the pain experienceis a result of biopsychosocial
factors.
Most people still think thatthe reason that they experience
pain is because they have somesort of tissue damage, mm-hmm.
And when I say things likeactually your pain has less to
(07:03):
do with tissue damage than youthink, your pain has less to do
with tissue damage than youthink, that tissue damage and
pain are only very looselycorrelated, people think that's
crazy.
Right, if I have a disorderedjoint, I have osteoarthritis in
my knee, then I'm going to havepain, right?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Is it the inflammation?
Is that what the pain is?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So that is still a biological factor right, okay,
inflammation is still biological.
What the pain is, so that isstill a biological factor.
Right, okay, inflammation isstill biological.
But we have other factors too.
So, like I am 48 years old, if Ilook at like statistics which
look at asymptomatic people inmy age range between 40 and 50,
(07:48):
what we'll see is that about 40to 50% of us I always use this
age range because it's such anice neat number 40 to 50% of us
actually have osteoarthriticchanges in our knee joints.
I will remind you that theseare asymptomatic people.
These are people who do nothave knee pain or any kind of
functional deficits in theirknees.
But when we scan them, when wegive them an MRI, we find that
(08:10):
40 to 50% of them have thesechanges.
So I'll come back to what Isaid before, which is that
tissue damage and pain are onlyloosely correlated.
What are the factors that wouldlead to one person having pain
as a result of these jointchanges and one person being
(08:32):
totally unencumbered?
Those would have to bepsychosocial factors, right,
yeah, following me so far.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I'm loving this.
By the way, I'm learning andyou're very good at explaining
this and breaking it down.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So, thank you, that's what I do all day, every day.
Yeah, following me so far, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm loving this.
By the way, I'm learning andyou're very good at explaining
this and breaking it down, so,thank you, that's what I do all
day, every day.
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Explain this stuff Right, but it's hard to accept
because all of us grew up rightwith this.
We have a very mechanistic view.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
That really challenges the narrative that
everyone has believed, probablyforever, forever.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, forever.
I mean, the current paradigmand understanding of the human
body was actually developedaround the same time as the
Industrial Revolution, believeit or not.
So at the same time as we werestarting to you know, medicine
was starting to become actualmedicine as we know it, to
(09:27):
become actual medicine as weknow it, we were also developing
systems and tools formechanizing industry right, for
building cars and doing allsorts of crazy things, right?
So these two ideas sort of grewup in tandem, this mechanistic
view of the body.
I remember when I was inelementary school we had like it
was a page in a book or maybeit was on the overhead uh
projector that they used to useway back then right, maybe they
(09:48):
still use them um, a diagram ofthe body, but instead of organs
it was machine parts and it wasexplained to us that, okay, so
your body is like an engine,it's like you know, and when
piece, parts of it break, thenyou're screwed.
It body is like an engine, andwhen parts of it break, then
you're screwed.
It's just like an engine, right?
(10:10):
So my clients have this samemechanistic view of their body.
They think, oh, if my kneejoint wears out, I just have to
get it replaced my shoulder-.
Oh yeah, that's how theyexplain parts of the body.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Your cardiac system is explained as like a plumbing
system.
It's like a plumbing systemright.
We mechanize all of that.
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Believe it or not, like this system was
conceptualized in tandem withthe industrial revolution.
I believe it, you do believe it.
And just because we think it'strue, that doesn't mean it's
true, right?
There's a lot of things that wethink are true which are
absolutely false about ourbodies, especially no-transcript
(11:07):
.
The dharma of a biologicalentity is to adapt to stressors.
So your heart just doesn't likepump enough times, and that's
as many as you get, right,you're done pumping your heart.
That couldn't be less true.
The more you pump your heart,the more you work your heart,
the better it adapts, thestronger it gets, the more
(11:33):
resilient it gets.
So it's the same thing with yourknee.
People think, oh, I have wearand tear in my knee.
If you use your knee too much,you run too much or whatever,
you're going to wear out thatjoint.
You're going to need to get itreplaced at some point.
Except that's not true.
It's just not true.
Runners have lessosteoarthritis.
Runners have less knee painthan the general public and
certainly less than sedentaryindividuals.
So if this mechanistic view wastrue, then the people who do
(11:56):
absolutely nothing, couchpotatoes, would have healthier
knees than marathon runners.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, we need to use our.
You don't what's the saying?
I tell people all the time ifyou don't, use it you lose it at
a certain age, and that is verytrue.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
You do right, because the body is adapting both to
stressors which are not appliedin the case of the couch potato
right.
So now we'll see degenerativechanges just because the cells
are never adapting right.
Or you can see adaptation toapplied stress, the right, the
eustress right.
Not too much, not too little.
That's the sweet spot.
It happens to your heart, ithappens to your knees, it
(12:29):
happens to your shoulders, ithappens to your back, it happens
to your connective tissues,your bones, your muscles, your
brain.
Right, all of your systems areadapting all the time, and so
this mechanistic view is superharmful, especially for us women
as we enter midlife.
You're not there yet.
You're too young.
No, I'm 41.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I'm there.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Oh, you're getting there, okay.
Well, you look really young.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Well, thank you, I appreciate it.
I like credit it to beingimmature.
Maybe I should try a little bitmore.
Just kidding.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
But we think, oh well , the reason I'm in pain is
because my joints are wearingout, I'm just getting older.
This is not true.
We don't just start toexperience pain because we're
getting older.
We start to experience pain dueto a lot of other
biopsychosocial factors,including probably not being
active enough, and I would liketo talk about especially, you
know, those factors for women inmidlife, because that is
predominantly the populationthat I serve.
(13:28):
But I want to give you a chanceto kind of like break that up if
you need to.
I know I just talked a bunchfor a while.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
No, I loved it, I thought it was so great.
And I think now where I kind ofwant to go with this, because,
like that was beautifully brokendown, is kind of what some of
those factors can be, or thatyou see quite often, because you
know I can tell you, as you'retalking about this, I'm thinking
about a few different things.
I'm thinking about onesometimes, the way, like as a
critical care nurse, the waypain is relieved is, it's it's
(13:57):
different for everyone andsometimes it's distraction and
sometimes it's.
You know what I mean.
Like you know, so it's notalways related to, like,
relieving the physical symptomsfor pain relief.
So I'm thinking of that, butI'm also thinking of, like my
chronic pain.
People are people who stufftheir emotions.
They're people who have haven'tmaybe had a lot of ability or
(14:19):
situation to be able to expressthemselves freely.
You know, there's a lot ofcommon um factors I see involved
that are common for a lot ofwomen and we're the, we're the
brunt of this population withchronic pain, with chronic
illnesses, with all of that.
So I'm just wondering yourperspective on that.
Um, yeah, yeah, so yeah, it'strue.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
So women experience chronic pain more than men.
The women in midlife experiencechronic pain more than other
women.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Sorry to interrupt.
I want to add one part.
Is any of this related to ourlike hormone changes in this
stage of life too?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
There are hormone, there is a component of the
hormone changes.
So estrogen is a pain modulator.
Estrogen works with the otherneurochemicals which can either
turn down or amplify pain.
So estrogen is known to have alittle bit of a turning down
capacity in our system.
So we have less estrogen andyou know even progesterone,
(15:22):
right?
Progesterone sort of keeps uscalm.
When we get ramped up, thosepain chemicals also are
increased.
Also, estrogen helps to protectour bones, protects our joints,
right.
So we often see that women areexperiencing more joint changes,
joint pain, especially as oneof the primary complaints of
(15:44):
perimenopause.
And some of this is biological,right, those are biological
factors.
The other factor that youbrought up previously was
inflammation.
I think that a lot of us womenare experiencing
neuroinflammatory, neuroimmuneinflammation issues, gut issues,
at this age.
Obviously, autoimmune disorderstend to accelerate as we get to
(16:09):
this age range.
So those are all biologicalfactors.
However, inflammation is alsomodulated by emotional stress.
Emotional stress is probably oneof the primary drivers of
inflammation for most of us and,by the the way, it's modifiable
emotional stress, right.
Nutrition, how much we move.
(16:30):
Those are the main things thatwe can do to modulate
inflammation in our bodies.
But I also wanted to touch onsomething else you said is that
those of us and I'm includingmyself here, right, I know this
very, very well, I live thisthose of us with chronic pain do
have a bit of a type, apersonality type.
(16:54):
We tend to be people pleasers,we tend to be highly, highly
conscientious individuals.
We tend to be perfectionists.
We're very, very hard onourselves.
You know, we do know that earlylife trauma significantly
increases the chances that we'llexperience chronic pain in our
(17:14):
lifetime.
So there are personalityfactors which can increase not
only the likelihood that we willdevelop a chronic pain issue,
but make it a lot harder for usto overcome it.
And then, so that's kind ofsort of one of the sort of
(17:37):
psychological factors.
But let me just touch a littlebit on the social factors and
that's something you justbrought up, the sort of
psychological factors.
But let me just touch a littlebit on the social factors and
that's something you justbrought up.
I mean, I already mentioned I'm48 years old, right.
So I I like many of women myage are in this sandwich
(17:59):
generation right.
We've got our kids, who arejust leaving home and they have
their unique sets of challenges,and we have these relationship
challenges and dynamics thatwe're trying to navigate at a
like a really transitional pointin life.
I became an empty nester lastyear myself.
It's fabulous.
I highly recommend it.
But also we've got we've gotour parents right now.
(18:20):
We're dealing with the stressesof our parents, so that causes a
significant amount of stressthat we can't really do a lot
about.
Most of us, you know, at thisage range are in relationships,
especially heterosexual.
Only heterosexual women are inrelationships with men who were
(18:41):
raised in the eighties.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I just rolled my eyes so hard.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Or you know previous generations, like they were even
more disadvantaged, right.
So like we're feeling sort oflike overloaded in the home.
We're feeling like our voicesoften being silenced, right,
because a lot of theserelationships I know especially
I am currently going through adivorce right, like we don't
have a voice, right, and so thenthis just continues to
(19:11):
exacerbate this feeling that weare powerless.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Oh and it's cultural too, with, like the whole, just
the patriarchy in general.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
It's kind of ingrained in our culture from
for a very, very long time totake women's voice away to take
our voice away and then likeyou're only being a good woman
if you are subjugating yourneeds in favor of everyone else
in your life.
And how does this show up formy clients?
I mean, it shows up in that youknow, oh, I can't, I can't
exercise, I have to take thekids to practice, or, you know,
(19:47):
my, my husband, is alwaystraveling, so I can't do this
with because I have the kids orI have my parents or whatever,
so I can't exercise, I'minactive.
Inactivity is highly correlatedwith the development of chronic
pain, as well as increasedinflammation, as well as poor
outcomes in aging Right, so it'sno wonder that we're
experiencing all of these like atsunami.
And this is just when it comesto not moving enough.
(20:08):
What about diet?
I don't have time to take careof my diet.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I can't go to the grocery store and meal prep, or
X, y, z, yeah so, and these arejust like the physical factors
right, yeah, and I feel like ourneeds are changing a little bit
dietary at this point in ourage too that we're probably
lacking in as well, just fromthe understudied of what like
understudied of what this doesto our bodies, like this
(20:32):
perimenopause stage hasn't beenstudied very well, and we're
finding a lot of things going onthat can help.
So it's kind of crazy.
I love this, though, because Ithink there's so many more women
living with this stuff than weeven know about.
Because of that, we pushourself under the rug where
people please their well, youknow, and especially for people
that are, because I think a lotof women have a touch of this
(20:53):
and it's a spectrum.
And then I love how you'resaying there's like a
personality type to it, because,as you're describing some of
those traits I'm envisioning myclients with, I'm like, oh, you
know what?
Yeah, that would, she would fitin that mold a little bit
thinking about that.
So I think I just can't imaginehow empowering this is for some
women to hear, you know that,like hey, so if a woman is
(21:13):
listening to this and she's like, okay, you're hitting that,
that's me, that's me what, whatkind of advice would you give
them or where would you directthem or what do they need to
know at this point?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
wow, it's such a journey.
Right, it's such a journey, andI know this from my own
personal experience because, um,I'm like a go-getter, a very
motivated person.
Nobody needs to ask me to, youknow, I am on it.
So when I sort of startedlearning about pain neuroscience
, and then I just was so hungry,I was constantly reading
(21:44):
research.
I was reading books and gettingmore language and ideas about
this, and I was excited to applythem to my own pain issue, it
at times made it worse.
You know, oh, I was barking upthe wrong tree with that.
Let me try this strategy, letme try that strategy right.
So a lot of times we're reallydiscouraged because we tried.
We tried to get to the gym,right.
(22:06):
We felt like we got re-injured,we tried to change our diet,
except it was just really,really hard, so we gave up.
So, having somebody to stand byyour side and hold your hand
right and not only figure outlike what strategies are going
to work specifically in yourlife, but also what are
(22:26):
sustainable for you, what arethings that you can do on a
regular basis that are alsoreally, really effective, and
when we discover something thatisn't working, can we pivot
before we waste too much moretime and more pain, right.
So it's difficult.
This is a difficult, adifficult thing to manage on
(22:51):
your own.
I will say that, right, I'm notgoing to blow smoke and say, oh
, you got this right.
However, there are lots ofresources.
I have lots of resources forpeople who want a holistic
perspective on their pain andholistic strategies for their
pain.
So one of the things I wouldrecommend is my ebook, just
because it gives you a roadmap.
(23:12):
It's literally a roadmap tostarting to get moving with
chronic pain, which, as a 20year movement professional, is
probably the number one thing.
Because what is it that painusually keeps us from doing?
Moving?
Right, we stop doing exercise,certainly right, and then maybe
(23:37):
you stop taking care of youryard.
That's too much.
All that bending over isdifficult for me.
Okay, that's another thing I'veeliminated from my life.
I have clients who stopsocializing because sitting in
the chair or, you know, gettingto here or there, the family,
you know, the friends and familywant to go to this event and I
can't swim and I can't walk tothe park, right.
(23:57):
So now the lack of movement isalso impacting your social life
and we know that loneliness andsocial isolation increase pain
and also other illness.
And then what about?
Okay?
Well, driving has become reallydifficult for me.
I have clients who can't driveanymore because of their pain,
(24:17):
so it becomes even moreisolating, even more
debilitating.
So movement is the number onething that we have to reclaim.
Without the ability to move,we're missing out on all of
these other important thingsthat can actually turn down your
pain, even in the presence oftissue damage, even in the
(24:41):
presence of tissue damage.
So that roadmap to moving beyondpain, I think is a really,
really great resource.
I think also, having asupportive community of peers
can be really helpful,especially for us women, can be
(25:03):
really helpful, especially forus women.
I know that a lot of us arereally feeling marginalized and
misunderstood at this stage inour lives.
It's very bewildering a lot ofthe changes that we're
experiencing.
So having peers that you canlook to for advice, but also
just support, or even sometimescommiseration, can be really
really helpful.
So, yeah, a coach, movement, acommunity nutrition is really
(25:28):
important, developing personalresources, all of it.
That's why it's holistic, it'sall the things.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Powerful, powerful stuff.
So I was, as you were talking,I was wondering how?
Like so, I love the movementpiece, like so, but how do we,
how do you?
Um?
So one thing I'm hearing a lottoo from a lot of other people
that come on, and you know, Ithink it's really important for
women of our ages to allowourselves to rest when our
bodies are telling us to resttoo.
So I'm wondering how well?
I think the rest is alsoessential to keep moving
sometimes.
So I'm just wondering how youhelp women find balance, or
(26:13):
maybe, yeah, with the restversus the movement at this age,
like allowing ourselves time,because I feel like part of that
, like people pleasing and beinglike a really good self
motivator is sometimes that's.
You almost can wear yourselfout at times too.
You know, trying to and maybethey're not physical things, you
(26:33):
know what I mean we're wearingourselves out in other ways,
trying to get it all done andmake everybody happy.
So how do you find that balance?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
That is really hard, because pushing through pain is
probably the number one strategyfor my clients just pushing
through.
But we know that when we'reconsistently ignoring our pain
and pushing through it, it tendsto get worse.
It doesn't get better, right.
(27:02):
So for a lot of my clients, youknow they they actually need to
engage in some sort ofprogramming with some sort of
fitness, right or strength ormovement.
I do somatics a lot with people,which is a beautiful way of
moving that is really restful,which encourages us to start to
(27:23):
listen to our bodies.
So for me, the first step foralmost every client is
interoceptive awareness, isstarting to develop that
internal sense of number onewhat am I feeling, what am I
experiencing?
Instead of ignoring it, becausethat's what we do, we ignore
(27:44):
our feelings.
Having feelings is a hugeliability for a woman.
We can't put up with it, don'tbe difficult and bring that
stuff up.
Better not to have feelings.
It's so much easier foreveryone, right?
So for most people, it'slearning that to actually pay
attention to your body again,and the best way for me to do
(28:06):
that is through somaticeducation learning how it moves,
to feel your shoulder joint inthis range of motion and then
learning how do I feel about howit feels no-transcript over at
(28:29):
least stimulated state.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
a lot, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, so I mean, there's no one prescription for
when to rest.
What we have to do first is getin touch with how we're
actually feeling, so that we canmake an informed decision about
.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Well, I also want to go back to what you said about
community too, because it is nota small thing.
I think that's a huge piece ofa lot of women's struggles and,
like one of the points of thispodcast and something that comes
up constantly, is, like youknow, women really need a
community to heal that can notjust hear them but understand.
You need someone who can, whokind of, who can validate you a
(29:11):
little bit, who has, who needsomeone who can validate you a
little bit.
If I bring my nursing stresseshome to family members or
friends who aren't nurses, it'snot as validating to share with
them because they don't reallyunderstand.
However, if I go and Icommiserate with another ICU
nurse who knows what my stressis about, it feels more
relieving.
And this is true of trauma, thisis true of grief.
(29:35):
You know this is these are verypowerful times that we really
need other people who have gonethrough something similar enough
to understand.
We need to hear them tell theirstories.
We need to to hear be in a safeplace with them to be able to
tell our own.
And it's powerful on so manylevels because I think that
experience allows us to seeother women fighting through
(29:59):
things that allows us to seeother women letting themselves
rest and in hearing thosestories we validate those things
for ourselves.
That maybe as people pleasers,as perfectionists, we're just
pushing that under the rug alittle bit.
Oh, that's fine, that's notreally me.
And then when you hear anotherperson say it you're like, oh,
maybe that is affecting me,maybe that, maybe I should let
that out of the, out of mylittle wherever I shoved it for
(30:19):
a minute and look at it a littlemore no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
You know, we know that we just mentioned this
women experience chronic painmore than men, and women in
midlife experience it more thanother women.
We also know that when we go toour doctors or medical
professionals for help with ourpain, we are most likely to walk
out of the visit with aprescription for an
antidepressant and I don't wantto dog on this too much, right,
we do know that someantidepressants can have a
(31:57):
beneficial effect on chronicpain, right, so there is a good
clinical reason for that.
But also, it's tremendouslyunvalidating to be told oh, you
have shoulder pain, let's justwork on your anxiety.
Can you do some breathingexercises?
Maybe try to relax more, try abubble bath, right, that's
(32:18):
crushing, it's crushing.
Or even worse, like, well, whenyou lose 25 pounds, come back
and talk to me about yourshoulder.
So, yeah, we, we need otherpeople who are going through
these experiences to validate usso that we're not crazy.
Because feeling like you'recrazy and feeling like you have
no power and feeling like no oneunderstands you is really,
(32:40):
really amplifying for painsensitivity.
This is known, this is science,right?
So just feeling understood canactually turn down our
sensitivity.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Oh, I love that.
That's such a key thing.
And you know I yeah I don't, II knock on the medical system a
lot cause I'm in it.
But I'll say one thing I thinkthat is lacking is the education
about preventing or like reallyhealing things.
We do really just treatsymptoms and I feel like that's
getting worse and worse.
But then when we talk aboutsomething like this that maybe
(33:11):
isn't that well studied or maybeis like a new, I don't know,
wouldn't even say it's new.
It's just not really beenaccepted by the modern medical
system and it's starting towe're starting to, in our
culture, really accept this.
Well, parts of us are startingto really accept that this stuff
is real.
These holistic practices arereally healing people.
It's just not something you'regoing to find in your doctor's
(33:33):
office, unless you're seekingout someone who's like more into
functional medicine or, youknow, into the more holistic
practices.
So you know, I just want toencourage people to look around
for maybe some things outsidethat system, not to replace but
to supplement your care.
Because, again, I'm not sayingavoid the medical system, I'm
(33:55):
saying there are a lot ofsupplements, supplemental
holistic, functional practicesout there that help, and this is
one of those areas that, likepeople are going back.
You know the chronic, the waythey they.
Well, maybe you can speak tothis, because how we treat
chronic pain in the medicalsystem when you go to the doctor
(34:15):
, you know I know you saidantidepressants, but I'll pass
that as well what are the othertreatments you know like?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
It's really.
You know, I I have, over theyears I've had as clients many
physicians and you know, whenI'm out in the world and I'm
chatting with physicians and Itell them what I do, they're
always like, oh, thank Godsomeone is doing that Because,
honestly, like first of all,physicians don't really love
(34:47):
chronic pain right.
They don't have a lot of optionsfor chronic pain, and they'll
be the first to admit it.
I can give you a medication orI can do a procedure, right, the
problem is pain is notbiological only, it is
biopsychosocial, right?
So how often do we do thatprocedure?
And yet the person is in justas much pain, or more,
(35:09):
post-procedure right, it'sbecause there are other factors
contributing to pain, the otherpart of that which is, I think,
really harmful, and this comesback to the paradigm of how we
understand the body, and this isreally unique to Western
medicine, which is unique toWestern philosophy, right.
So, like to compare, we canlook at the Eastern philosophies
(35:32):
, like Ayurveda or Chinesetraditional medicine, right,
those philosophies considerpatterns, right?
So you go to an acupuncturistand they're going to talk about
your diet and you talk aboutyour sleep and your
relationships, and you're goingto look at your tongue and your
blood pressure and your eyes andyour hair, right, they're going
to look at this whole pattern,this whole constellation of self
(35:54):
, and they're going to try tocome up with, hopefully although
, again, we might have somesequestering of treatments also,
like, for example, inacupuncture or herbalism right,
so the constellation of factorsis considered when we have some
(36:14):
sort of malady right In Westernphilosophy, ie Western medicine,
we look for an origin, not apattern.
We need to find that one thing,that one joint, that one muscle,
that one cell, that one XYZthat's causing all of this.
(36:44):
We need an origin right andthis is unique to Western
philosophy right and it has alot to do also with our
Judeo-Christian philosophy aswell the origin right.
We got this one guy.
So the problem with looking foran origin is that we miss 99%
(37:05):
of what's going on in the self.
So I always tell my clientspain doesn't happen in a body
part, it happens in a unifiedself which means that we can tug
(37:27):
on this string or this stringor this string or this string.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Any string we pull on is going to make an impact on
your pain.
We just need to find the onesthat are going to sustainably
work in your life.
That holistic, patient-centeredapproach is where it's at.
It's where it's at for a lot ofthings and less acute
conditions, but for the mostpart, anything preventative, any
of that.
It's all about this big pictureall the factors in your life,
lifestyle, genetics, all of it.
So I love that, because that'swhere it's at, where the real
(37:51):
healing's at.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
And it's not that we can't do these things in tandem
with medicine, right?
I mean, most of my clients arealso seeing a physician.
Maybe they're also seeing aphysical therapist, Maybe
they're doing different kinds oftreatments or getting regular
checkups with their surgeon fortheir pain issues.
Right, these things are notmutually exclusive.
They can work together.
(38:12):
Right, these things are notmutually exclusive.
They can work together right.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
But sometimes they don't need them more as much
medical when they start working.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Most, I mean I.
I I have to my clients.
I have zero opinion on whatthey're doing with their doctor,
because that's not my role.
I will say that most of themfind over time that they need to
spend less time at thechiropractor and they need to do
less, you know, like tests andstuff with their doctor because
they're feeling better.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah, I love that.
That's so powerful.
Well, man, I have reallyappreciated this.
I feel like you are very, veryarticulate at communicating
these ideas and I appreciate it.
I feel like you are very, veryarticulate at communicating
these ideas and I appreciate it.
I feel like my listeners willappreciate it too.
So what if someone is listeningto this and they're like man, I
really want to.
I want to talk to you, I wantto work with Mandy.
(39:04):
Where would you send them first?
Speaker 2 (39:07):
So yeah, I I know you'll have a link for the ebook
.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yeah, I'm going to.
All of Mandy's links will be inthe show notes.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
There's a bunch, so yeah you'll have a link for the
ebook I would.
That's going to be probably thebest way to sort of enter my
ecosystem, because I have a lotthat I can offer once you're in
the ecosystem.
So once you request that ebook,you'll get a link for it, but
also you'll be on my email listso I can tell you about all of
(39:34):
the other cool things I'm doing.
Another option would be to justlook at my YouTube channel,
movement for healing.
I have lots and lots ofmovement resources on there.
I do a webinar once every fewmonths, which is pain specific.
The last one that I did wasabout the role of fear and
(39:57):
chronic pain.
The one before that wasspecifically travel tips for
people.
We're always doing cool stuff.
The next one is actuallyspecifically about the menopause
and perimenopause experienceand chronic pain.
Oh, powerful right now, yeah,and that one's coming up in um,
I think, at the end of August.
So if you request that ebook,then you'll get on that list and
(40:19):
I'll tell you when I have coolresources coming up, all of
which are free.
Um, if you're like, okay, Ithink this is for me, I really
need to talk to her individuallyabout my specific pain problem.
I think I've also provided youa link to schedule a 25 minute
free call with me so we candiscuss if working together
(40:40):
would be a good idea for you.
If I can help you.
I also run group programs,which I sort of love the most
because it adds that communityaspect.
So the next group program isspecifically regarding women in
the perimenopause experience andchronic pain.
So, yeah, that's all myresources.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
I love that.
I'm so excited I'm going toafter this, I'm going to talk to
you about some of the othernonprofits I work with around
this.
I feel like there's just somany people out there that if
they just need to know you exist, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
So thank you for having me on so I can talk to
people, because I don't thinkpeople know how many options
they have.
I don't know how much powerthey have and maybe is it going
to eliminate your pain 100%.
No, there's no treatment that'sgoing to eliminate it 100%.
But I know in the worst days ofmy pain experience I would have
taken a 15 or 20% improvement.
Right Anything to help you.
(41:40):
Yeah, and certainly we can domuch, much better than that.
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
So one thing I ask all my guests, I want to ask you
before I go, is so what is yourgo-to?
My gosh, I don't want tobutcher it.
I always used to say self-care,but now I say self.
Oh, my gosh, dr Lori Lawcorrected me and she told me to
call it.
Oh man, I'm going to have tolook it up for the next one.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Anyway, she's like don't say self-care anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Say self and now I can't remember it.
So sorry, dr Lori Laws, I willfind out.
I will look it up.
I'm blanking today because I'mtired, but what's your go-to
self-care when things aregetting overwhelming, the way
that you bring you back to you?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
It's for me.
I am in love with heavyresistance training, and that's
something that I think a lot ofwomen avoid Obviously, we know
that but especially women withchronic pain, and I used to too.
But what I discovered when Istarted strength training, heavy
resistance training about fouryears ago was that it actually
(42:42):
helps my pain issue.
I'm in significantly less painsignificantly less pain having a
regular strength trainingregimen.
I work out in the gym five daysa week.
I do cardio every day, and forme, it's what makes me feel
empowered, it's what makes mefeel like myself.
It helps to regulate my nervoussystem.
It helps to turn down thesensitivity on my pain.
(43:05):
It's everything.
It's everything.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
That's a new one too, like that's not one when
someone said before.
So I think how powerful and howrelated to your message so well
.
Thank you so much for coming onand sharing your knowledge.
Like I really appreciate it.
I feel like this is one ofthose, those topics that just
needs more light, needs moreattention for people to know
what's out there and that theydon't have to accept the way
(43:32):
things are right now.
They do have options, there'schanges possible.
So I think this is so powerful.
Thank you so much.
That was very well said, thankyou, thank you.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Empowered
Ease, where we celebrateinspiring women who are making a
significant impact in the livesof others.
Today, I'm thrilled to announceMandy Ryle as our next guest.
She's an extraordinaryindividual who is transforming
how we approach and managepersistent pain.
Mandy's innovative and holisticprogram is a lifeline for
(00:27):
individuals, particularly womenin midlife, grappling with
chronic pain.
Her approach is a harmoniousblend of nervous system
re-education, mindsetcultivation, nutrition, coaching
and exercise.
Mandy's expertise doesn't juststem from her comprehensive
understanding of painneuroscience and her
(00:49):
professional credentials as ayoga teacher and strength and
conditioning coach, but it'salso deeply personal Living with
a chronic pain conditionherself.
Mandy's journey infuses herwork with compassion and
authenticity, offering herclients not just relief but
empowerment and renewed vitality.
(01:11):
Beyond her transformativeconsulting, mandy offers a
wealth of resources, includingthe Move Beyond Pain Roadmap
ebook and her popular YouTubechannel Movement for Healing.
As the host of the Yin Yogapodcast, she continues to share
holistic approaches to wellnesswith a broad audience.
So join us as Mandy sharesinsights into her unique methods
(01:34):
, ongoing projects and how sheenvisions a world where pain is
managed not just physically butholistically, leading to a more
vibrant and fulfilling life.
Welcome, mandy, to EmpoweredEase.
Hello and welcome back toEmpowered Ease.
(01:55):
Our guest today is Mandy Ryle.
Hello, mandy, welcome, I'm sohappy you're here.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you for having me, Jen.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thanks for coming.
So you are kind of specializingin chronic pain.
So before we get into that, whydon't you tell us a little bit
about yourself and kind of yourjourney that got you to this
point?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, I would say my journey started with yoga, which
started with me being a singlemom of a one and three year old
in my late 20s and at the time Iwas a professional musician.
But I was really interested insome of the ways that yoga
practices could help my studentsbecause I was a voice teacher
(02:47):
help my students because I was avoice teacher.
And so I really got into yoga,which was great because my I
would.
When my kids were napping, Iwould put on a video and it just
kind of saved me, it helped mewith my anxiety, it helped me to
feel empowered.
So I got into yoga, actuallymore than I was into music.
I ended up doing a teachertraining, started teaching and
2010, I opened a studio and um,it was rough.
(03:11):
It's hard.
Owning a yoga studio is reallyhard.
I was in like a pretty horriblerelationship at that point and
raising two little kids and umdeveloped a chronic pain issue
around 2015.
Developed a chronic pain issuearound 2015, which was pretty
life-changing, as I'm sureanyone will tell you who has had
(03:36):
a chronic pain issue, and youtell yourself that you're not
going to let it keep you down,you're not going to let it
change you or shrink you, butdespite all of your best efforts
, that's exactly what it does.
So spent many, many 1000s ofdollars hours on all kinds of
different strategies andtreatments for this chronic pain
(03:58):
issue, and it just got worseand worse and worse.
In 2020, I ended up doing anadvanced teacher training with a
teacher called Jules Mitchell,and she is really heavily into
the biomechanics of yoga, butalso pain science, and so that
was really my first introductionto pain science and I it was
like finding my soulmate right.
(04:20):
It's this combination ofneuroscience, understanding
biopsychosocial factorscontributing to pain,
understanding the holisticnature of pain and therefore how
yoga and other lifestylefactors can contribute to
feeling better, which I employedand had a pretty haphazard
(04:42):
approach for quite some time,eventually ended up doing a pain
science mentorship with mymentor, who's in Canada, neil
Pearson, and that was reallywhen I developed the strategies
that I needed to get relief, andI can happily say that, even
though I am someone who stillhas a chronic pain issue, anyone
(05:02):
who has chronic pain willalways have chronic pain.
I'm someone who still has achronic pain issue.
Anyone who has chronic painwill always have chronic pain.
It has not shrunk my life.
I live pretty freely.
I live without fear.
Yes, I experience painintermittently, I have flares,
just like anybody who's had apain issue, but I can't honestly
say that I've overcome my painissue, and so, combined with
(05:24):
what I learned in my mentorshipand my education and my own
experience, I now help people toemploy those exact same
practices in a customized way sothat they can feel better too,
because there's a lot you can do.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Oh, that's beautiful.
That's beautiful, okay.
So I have some questions thatmaybe you could just like break
down a little bit for us.
So I this is maybe my firsttime really hearing about like
pain science, which makes mereally excited, and I- love all
what what you and like what itinvolves, all the things I love.
but can you explain or maybejust break that down a little
(05:58):
bit for those of us that aremaybe a little bit newer?
Like, what are some of thefactors involved in like the?
What are some of the bio-socialfactors involved in pain and
you know what?
Yeah, explain that a little bitmore for people who may be new
to that idea.
Or maybe what the new, whatsome of the neuroscience, or?
Yeah, sure, I'd love to.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So I mean, obviously it's a huge topic, but let me
see if I can give just kind of aprimer so you have a sense of
what pain neuroscience educationis.
So we acknowledge, at least youknow, maybe in the last 40 or
50 years that at least in thescientific community not in the
(06:40):
medical community certainly, anddefinitely not in the general
public that the pain experienceis a result of biopsychosocial
factors.
Most people still think thatthe reason that they experience
pain is because they have somesort of tissue damage, mm-hmm.
And when I say things likeactually your pain has less to
(07:03):
do with tissue damage than youthink, your pain has less to do
with tissue damage than youthink, that tissue damage and
pain are only very looselycorrelated, people think that's
crazy.
Right, if I have a disorderedjoint, I have osteoarthritis in
my knee, then I'm going to havepain, right?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Is it the inflammation?
Is that what the pain is?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So that is still a biological factor right, okay,
inflammation is still biological.
What the pain is, so that isstill a biological factor.
Right, okay, inflammation isstill biological.
But we have other factors too.
So, like I am 48 years old, if Ilook at like statistics which
look at asymptomatic people inmy age range between 40 and 50,
(07:48):
what we'll see is that about 40to 50% of us I always use this
age range because it's such anice neat number 40 to 50% of us
actually have osteoarthriticchanges in our knee joints.
I will remind you that theseare asymptomatic people.
These are people who do nothave knee pain or any kind of
functional deficits in theirknees.
But when we scan them, when wegive them an MRI, we find that
(08:10):
40 to 50% of them have thesechanges.
So I'll come back to what Isaid before, which is that
tissue damage and pain are onlyloosely correlated.
What are the factors that wouldlead to one person having pain
as a result of these jointchanges and one person being
(08:32):
totally unencumbered?
Those would have to bepsychosocial factors, right,
yeah, following me so far.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I'm loving this.
By the way, I'm learning andyou're very good at explaining
this and breaking it down.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So, thank you, that's what I do all day, every day.
Yeah, following me so far, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm loving this.
By the way, I'm learning andyou're very good at explaining
this and breaking it down, so,thank you, that's what I do all
day, every day.
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Explain this stuff Right, but it's hard to accept
because all of us grew up rightwith this.
We have a very mechanistic view.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
That really challenges the narrative that
everyone has believed, probablyforever, forever.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, forever.
I mean, the current paradigmand understanding of the human
body was actually developedaround the same time as the
Industrial Revolution, believeit or not.
So at the same time as we werestarting to you know, medicine
was starting to become actualmedicine as we know it, to
(09:27):
become actual medicine as weknow it, we were also developing
systems and tools formechanizing industry right, for
building cars and doing allsorts of crazy things, right?
So these two ideas sort of grewup in tandem, this mechanistic
view of the body.
I remember when I was inelementary school we had like it
was a page in a book or maybeit was on the overhead uh
projector that they used to useway back then right, maybe they
(09:48):
still use them um, a diagram ofthe body, but instead of organs
it was machine parts and it wasexplained to us that, okay, so
your body is like an engine,it's like you know, and when
piece, parts of it break, thenyou're screwed.
It body is like an engine, andwhen parts of it break, then
you're screwed.
It's just like an engine, right?
(10:10):
So my clients have this samemechanistic view of their body.
They think, oh, if my kneejoint wears out, I just have to
get it replaced my shoulder-.
Oh yeah, that's how theyexplain parts of the body.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Your cardiac system is explained as like a plumbing
system.
It's like a plumbing systemright.
We mechanize all of that.
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Believe it or not, like this system was
conceptualized in tandem withthe industrial revolution.
I believe it, you do believe it.
And just because we think it'strue, that doesn't mean it's
true, right?
There's a lot of things that wethink are true which are
absolutely false about ourbodies, especially no-transcript
(11:07):
.
The dharma of a biologicalentity is to adapt to stressors.
So your heart just doesn't likepump enough times, and that's
as many as you get, right,you're done pumping your heart.
That couldn't be less true.
The more you pump your heart,the more you work your heart,
the better it adapts, thestronger it gets, the more
(11:33):
resilient it gets.
So it's the same thing with yourknee.
People think, oh, I have wearand tear in my knee.
If you use your knee too much,you run too much or whatever,
you're going to wear out thatjoint.
You're going to need to get itreplaced at some point.
Except that's not true.
It's just not true.
Runners have lessosteoarthritis.
Runners have less knee painthan the general public and
certainly less than sedentaryindividuals.
So if this mechanistic view wastrue, then the people who do
(11:56):
absolutely nothing, couchpotatoes, would have healthier
knees than marathon runners.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, we need to use our.
You don't what's the saying?
I tell people all the time ifyou don't, use it you lose it at
a certain age, and that is verytrue.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
You do right, because the body is adapting both to
stressors which are not appliedin the case of the couch potato
right.
So now we'll see degenerativechanges just because the cells
are never adapting right.
Or you can see adaptation toapplied stress, the right, the
eustress right.
Not too much, not too little.
That's the sweet spot.
It happens to your heart, ithappens to your knees, it
(12:29):
happens to your shoulders, ithappens to your back, it happens
to your connective tissues,your bones, your muscles, your
brain.
Right, all of your systems areadapting all the time, and so
this mechanistic view is superharmful, especially for us women
as we enter midlife.
You're not there yet.
You're too young.
No, I'm 41.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I'm there.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Oh, you're getting there, okay.
Well, you look really young.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Well, thank you, I appreciate it.
I like credit it to beingimmature.
Maybe I should try a little bitmore.
Just kidding.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
But we think, oh well , the reason I'm in pain is
because my joints are wearingout, I'm just getting older.
This is not true.
We don't just start toexperience pain because we're
getting older.
We start to experience pain dueto a lot of other
biopsychosocial factors,including probably not being
active enough, and I would liketo talk about especially, you
know, those factors for women inmidlife, because that is
predominantly the populationthat I serve.
(13:28):
But I want to give you a chanceto kind of like break that up if
you need to.
I know I just talked a bunchfor a while.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
No, I loved it, I thought it was so great.
And I think now where I kind ofwant to go with this, because,
like that was beautifully brokendown, is kind of what some of
those factors can be, or thatyou see quite often, because you
know I can tell you, as you'retalking about this, I'm thinking
about a few different things.
I'm thinking about onesometimes, the way, like as a
critical care nurse, the waypain is relieved is, it's it's
(13:57):
different for everyone andsometimes it's distraction and
sometimes it's.
You know what I mean.
Like you know, so it's notalways related to, like,
relieving the physical symptomsfor pain relief.
So I'm thinking of that, butI'm also thinking of, like my
chronic pain.
People are people who stufftheir emotions.
They're people who have haven'tmaybe had a lot of ability or
(14:19):
situation to be able to expressthemselves freely.
You know, there's a lot ofcommon um factors I see involved
that are common for a lot ofwomen and we're the, we're the
brunt of this population withchronic pain, with chronic
illnesses, with all of that.
So I'm just wondering yourperspective on that.
Um, yeah, yeah, so yeah, it'strue.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
So women experience chronic pain more than men.
The women in midlife experiencechronic pain more than other
women.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Sorry to interrupt.
I want to add one part.
Is any of this related to ourlike hormone changes in this
stage of life too?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
There are hormone, there is a component of the
hormone changes.
So estrogen is a pain modulator.
Estrogen works with the otherneurochemicals which can either
turn down or amplify pain.
So estrogen is known to have alittle bit of a turning down
capacity in our system.
So we have less estrogen andyou know even progesterone,
(15:22):
right?
Progesterone sort of keeps uscalm.
When we get ramped up, thosepain chemicals also are
increased.
Also, estrogen helps to protectour bones, protects our joints,
right.
So we often see that women areexperiencing more joint changes,
joint pain, especially as oneof the primary complaints of
(15:44):
perimenopause.
And some of this is biological,right, those are biological
factors.
The other factor that youbrought up previously was
inflammation.
I think that a lot of us womenare experiencing
neuroinflammatory, neuroimmuneinflammation issues, gut issues,
at this age.
Obviously, autoimmune disorderstend to accelerate as we get to
(16:09):
this age range.
So those are all biologicalfactors.
However, inflammation is alsomodulated by emotional stress.
Emotional stress is probably oneof the primary drivers of
inflammation for most of us and,by the the way, it's modifiable
emotional stress, right.
Nutrition, how much we move.
(16:30):
Those are the main things thatwe can do to modulate
inflammation in our bodies.
But I also wanted to touch onsomething else you said is that
those of us and I'm includingmyself here, right, I know this
very, very well, I live thisthose of us with chronic pain do
have a bit of a type, apersonality type.
(16:54):
We tend to be people pleasers,we tend to be highly, highly
conscientious individuals.
We tend to be perfectionists.
We're very, very hard onourselves.
You know, we do know that earlylife trauma significantly
increases the chances that we'llexperience chronic pain in our
(17:14):
lifetime.
So there are personalityfactors which can increase not
only the likelihood that we willdevelop a chronic pain issue,
but make it a lot harder for usto overcome it.
And then, so that's kind ofsort of one of the sort of
(17:37):
psychological factors.
But let me just touch a littlebit on the social factors and
that's something you justbrought up, the sort of
psychological factors.
But let me just touch a littlebit on the social factors and
that's something you justbrought up.
I mean, I already mentioned I'm48 years old, right.
So I I like many of women myage are in this sandwich
(17:59):
generation right.
We've got our kids, who arejust leaving home and they have
their unique sets of challenges,and we have these relationship
challenges and dynamics thatwe're trying to navigate at a
like a really transitional pointin life.
I became an empty nester lastyear myself.
It's fabulous.
I highly recommend it.
But also we've got we've gotour parents right now.
(18:20):
We're dealing with the stressesof our parents, so that causes a
significant amount of stressthat we can't really do a lot
about.
Most of us, you know, at thisage range are in relationships,
especially heterosexual.
Only heterosexual women are inrelationships with men who were
(18:41):
raised in the eighties.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I just rolled my eyes so hard.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Or you know previous generations, like they were even
more disadvantaged, right.
So like we're feeling sort oflike overloaded in the home.
We're feeling like our voicesoften being silenced, right,
because a lot of theserelationships I know especially
I am currently going through adivorce right, like we don't
have a voice, right, and so thenthis just continues to
(19:11):
exacerbate this feeling that weare powerless.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Oh and it's cultural too, with, like the whole, just
the patriarchy in general.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
It's kind of ingrained in our culture from
for a very, very long time totake women's voice away to take
our voice away and then likeyou're only being a good woman
if you are subjugating yourneeds in favor of everyone else
in your life.
And how does this show up formy clients?
I mean, it shows up in that youknow, oh, I can't, I can't
exercise, I have to take thekids to practice, or, you know,
(19:47):
my, my husband, is alwaystraveling, so I can't do this
with because I have the kids orI have my parents or whatever,
so I can't exercise, I'minactive.
Inactivity is highly correlatedwith the development of chronic
pain, as well as increasedinflammation, as well as poor
outcomes in aging Right, so it'sno wonder that we're
experiencing all of these like atsunami.
And this is just when it comesto not moving enough.
(20:08):
What about diet?
I don't have time to take careof my diet.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I can't go to the grocery store and meal prep, or
X, y, z, yeah so, and these arejust like the physical factors
right, yeah, and I feel like ourneeds are changing a little bit
dietary at this point in ourage too that we're probably
lacking in as well, just fromthe understudied of what like
understudied of what this doesto our bodies, like this
(20:32):
perimenopause stage hasn't beenstudied very well, and we're
finding a lot of things going onthat can help.
So it's kind of crazy.
I love this, though, because Ithink there's so many more women
living with this stuff than weeven know about.
Because of that, we pushourself under the rug where
people please their well, youknow, and especially for people
that are, because I think a lotof women have a touch of this
(20:53):
and it's a spectrum.
And then I love how you'resaying there's like a
personality type to it, because,as you're describing some of
those traits I'm envisioning myclients with, I'm like, oh, you
know what?
Yeah, that would, she would fitin that mold a little bit
thinking about that.
So I think I just can't imaginehow empowering this is for some
women to hear, you know that,like hey, so if a woman is
(21:13):
listening to this and she's like, okay, you're hitting that,
that's me, that's me what, whatkind of advice would you give
them or where would you directthem or what do they need to
know at this point?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
wow, it's such a journey.
Right, it's such a journey, andI know this from my own
personal experience because, um,I'm like a go-getter, a very
motivated person.
Nobody needs to ask me to, youknow, I am on it.
So when I sort of startedlearning about pain neuroscience
, and then I just was so hungry,I was constantly reading
(21:44):
research.
I was reading books and gettingmore language and ideas about
this, and I was excited to applythem to my own pain issue, it
at times made it worse.
You know, oh, I was barking upthe wrong tree with that.
Let me try this strategy, letme try that strategy right.
So a lot of times we're reallydiscouraged because we tried.
We tried to get to the gym,right.
(22:06):
We felt like we got re-injured,we tried to change our diet,
except it was just really,really hard, so we gave up.
So, having somebody to stand byyour side and hold your hand
right and not only figure outlike what strategies are going
to work specifically in yourlife, but also what are
(22:26):
sustainable for you, what arethings that you can do on a
regular basis that are alsoreally, really effective, and
when we discover something thatisn't working, can we pivot
before we waste too much moretime and more pain, right.
So it's difficult.
This is a difficult, adifficult thing to manage on
(22:51):
your own.
I will say that, right, I'm notgoing to blow smoke and say, oh
, you got this right.
However, there are lots ofresources.
I have lots of resources forpeople who want a holistic
perspective on their pain andholistic strategies for their
pain.
So one of the things I wouldrecommend is my ebook, just
because it gives you a roadmap.
(23:12):
It's literally a roadmap tostarting to get moving with
chronic pain, which, as a 20year movement professional, is
probably the number one thing.
Because what is it that painusually keeps us from doing?
Moving?
Right, we stop doing exercise,certainly right, and then maybe
(23:37):
you stop taking care of youryard.
That's too much.
All that bending over isdifficult for me.
Okay, that's another thing I'veeliminated from my life.
I have clients who stopsocializing because sitting in
the chair or, you know, gettingto here or there, the family,
you know, the friends and familywant to go to this event and I
can't swim and I can't walk tothe park, right.
(23:57):
So now the lack of movement isalso impacting your social life
and we know that loneliness andsocial isolation increase pain
and also other illness.
And then what about?
Okay?
Well, driving has become reallydifficult for me.
I have clients who can't driveanymore because of their pain,
(24:17):
so it becomes even moreisolating, even more
debilitating.
So movement is the number onething that we have to reclaim.
Without the ability to move,we're missing out on all of
these other important thingsthat can actually turn down your
pain, even in the presence oftissue damage, even in the
(24:41):
presence of tissue damage.
So that roadmap to moving beyondpain, I think is a really,
really great resource.
I think also, having asupportive community of peers
can be really helpful,especially for us women, can be
(25:03):
really helpful, especially forus women.
I know that a lot of us arereally feeling marginalized and
misunderstood at this stage inour lives.
It's very bewildering a lot ofthe changes that we're
experiencing.
So having peers that you canlook to for advice, but also
just support, or even sometimescommiseration, can be really
really helpful.
So, yeah, a coach, movement, acommunity nutrition is really
(25:28):
important, developing personalresources, all of it.
That's why it's holistic, it'sall the things.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Powerful, powerful stuff.
So I was, as you were talking,I was wondering how?
Like so, I love the movementpiece, like so, but how do we,
how do you?
Um?
So one thing I'm hearing a lottoo from a lot of other people
that come on, and you know, Ithink it's really important for
women of our ages to allowourselves to rest when our
bodies are telling us to resttoo.
So I'm wondering how well?
I think the rest is alsoessential to keep moving
sometimes.
So I'm just wondering how youhelp women find balance, or
(26:13):
maybe, yeah, with the restversus the movement at this age,
like allowing ourselves time,because I feel like part of that
, like people pleasing and beinglike a really good self
motivator is sometimes that's.
You almost can wear yourselfout at times too.
You know, trying to and maybethey're not physical things, you
(26:33):
know what I mean we're wearingourselves out in other ways,
trying to get it all done andmake everybody happy.
So how do you find that balance?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
That is really hard, because pushing through pain is
probably the number one strategyfor my clients just pushing
through.
But we know that when we'reconsistently ignoring our pain
and pushing through it, it tendsto get worse.
It doesn't get better, right.
(27:02):
So for a lot of my clients, youknow they they actually need to
engage in some sort ofprogramming with some sort of
fitness, right or strength ormovement.
I do somatics a lot with people,which is a beautiful way of
moving that is really restful,which encourages us to start to
(27:23):
listen to our bodies.
So for me, the first step foralmost every client is
interoceptive awareness, isstarting to develop that
internal sense of number onewhat am I feeling, what am I
experiencing?
Instead of ignoring it, becausethat's what we do, we ignore
(27:44):
our feelings.
Having feelings is a hugeliability for a woman.
We can't put up with it, don'tbe difficult and bring that
stuff up.
Better not to have feelings.
It's so much easier foreveryone, right?
So for most people, it'slearning that to actually pay
attention to your body again,and the best way for me to do
(28:06):
that is through somaticeducation learning how it moves,
to feel your shoulder joint inthis range of motion and then
learning how do I feel about howit feels no-transcript over at
(28:29):
least stimulated state.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
a lot, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, so I mean, there's no one prescription for
when to rest.
What we have to do first is getin touch with how we're
actually feeling, so that we canmake an informed decision about
.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Well, I also want to go back to what you said about
community too, because it is nota small thing.
I think that's a huge piece ofa lot of women's struggles and,
like one of the points of thispodcast and something that comes
up constantly, is, like youknow, women really need a
community to heal that can notjust hear them but understand.
You need someone who can, whokind of, who can validate you a
(29:11):
little bit, who has, who needsomeone who can validate you a
little bit.
If I bring my nursing stresseshome to family members or
friends who aren't nurses, it'snot as validating to share with
them because they don't reallyunderstand.
However, if I go and Icommiserate with another ICU
nurse who knows what my stressis about, it feels more
relieving.
And this is true of trauma, thisis true of grief.
(29:35):
You know this is these are verypowerful times that we really
need other people who have gonethrough something similar enough
to understand.
We need to hear them tell theirstories.
We need to to hear be in a safeplace with them to be able to
tell our own.
And it's powerful on so manylevels because I think that
experience allows us to seeother women fighting through
(29:59):
things that allows us to seeother women letting themselves
rest and in hearing thosestories we validate those things
for ourselves.
That maybe as people pleasers,as perfectionists, we're just
pushing that under the rug alittle bit.
Oh, that's fine, that's notreally me.
And then when you hear anotherperson say it you're like, oh,
maybe that is affecting me,maybe that, maybe I should let
that out of the, out of mylittle wherever I shoved it for
(30:19):
a minute and look at it a littlemore no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
You know, we know that we just mentioned this
women experience chronic painmore than men, and women in
midlife experience it more thanother women.
We also know that when we go toour doctors or medical
professionals for help with ourpain, we are most likely to walk
out of the visit with aprescription for an
antidepressant and I don't wantto dog on this too much, right,
we do know that someantidepressants can have a
(31:57):
beneficial effect on chronicpain, right, so there is a good
clinical reason for that.
But also, it's tremendouslyunvalidating to be told oh, you
have shoulder pain, let's justwork on your anxiety.
Can you do some breathingexercises?
Maybe try to relax more, try abubble bath, right, that's
(32:18):
crushing, it's crushing.
Or even worse, like, well, whenyou lose 25 pounds, come back
and talk to me about yourshoulder.
So, yeah, we, we need otherpeople who are going through
these experiences to validate usso that we're not crazy.
Because feeling like you'recrazy and feeling like you have
no power and feeling like no oneunderstands you is really,
(32:40):
really amplifying for painsensitivity.
This is known, this is science,right?
So just feeling understood canactually turn down our
sensitivity.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Oh, I love that.
That's such a key thing.
And you know I yeah I don't, II knock on the medical system a
lot cause I'm in it.
But I'll say one thing I thinkthat is lacking is the education
about preventing or like reallyhealing things.
We do really just treatsymptoms and I feel like that's
getting worse and worse.
But then when we talk aboutsomething like this that maybe
(33:11):
isn't that well studied or maybeis like a new, I don't know,
wouldn't even say it's new.
It's just not really beenaccepted by the modern medical
system and it's starting towe're starting to, in our
culture, really accept this.
Well, parts of us are startingto really accept that this stuff
is real.
These holistic practices arereally healing people.
It's just not something you'regoing to find in your doctor's
(33:33):
office, unless you're seekingout someone who's like more into
functional medicine or, youknow, into the more holistic
practices.
So you know, I just want toencourage people to look around
for maybe some things outsidethat system, not to replace but
to supplement your care.
Because, again, I'm not sayingavoid the medical system, I'm
(33:55):
saying there are a lot ofsupplements, supplemental
holistic, functional practicesout there that help, and this is
one of those areas that, likepeople are going back.
You know the chronic, the waythey they.
Well, maybe you can speak tothis, because how we treat
chronic pain in the medicalsystem when you go to the doctor
(34:15):
, you know I know you saidantidepressants, but I'll pass
that as well what are the othertreatments you know like?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
It's really.
You know, I I have, over theyears I've had as clients many
physicians and you know, whenI'm out in the world and I'm
chatting with physicians and Itell them what I do, they're
always like, oh, thank Godsomeone is doing that Because,
honestly, like first of all,physicians don't really love
(34:47):
chronic pain right.
They don't have a lot of optionsfor chronic pain, and they'll
be the first to admit it.
I can give you a medication orI can do a procedure, right, the
problem is pain is notbiological only, it is
biopsychosocial, right?
So how often do we do thatprocedure?
And yet the person is in justas much pain, or more,
(35:09):
post-procedure right, it'sbecause there are other factors
contributing to pain, the otherpart of that which is, I think,
really harmful, and this comesback to the paradigm of how we
understand the body, and this isreally unique to Western
medicine, which is unique toWestern philosophy, right.
So, like to compare, we canlook at the Eastern philosophies
(35:32):
, like Ayurveda or Chinesetraditional medicine, right,
those philosophies considerpatterns, right?
So you go to an acupuncturistand they're going to talk about
your diet and you talk aboutyour sleep and your
relationships, and you're goingto look at your tongue and your
blood pressure and your eyes andyour hair, right, they're going
to look at this whole pattern,this whole constellation of self
(35:54):
, and they're going to try tocome up with, hopefully although
, again, we might have somesequestering of treatments also,
like, for example, inacupuncture or herbalism right,
so the constellation of factorsis considered when we have some
(36:14):
sort of malady right In Westernphilosophy, ie Western medicine,
we look for an origin, not apattern.
We need to find that one thing,that one joint, that one muscle,
that one cell, that one XYZthat's causing all of this.
(36:44):
We need an origin right andthis is unique to Western
philosophy right and it has alot to do also with our
Judeo-Christian philosophy aswell the origin right.
We got this one guy.
So the problem with looking foran origin is that we miss 99%
(37:05):
of what's going on in the self.
So I always tell my clientspain doesn't happen in a body
part, it happens in a unifiedself which means that we can tug
(37:27):
on this string or this stringor this string or this string.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Any string we pull on is going to make an impact on
your pain.
We just need to find the onesthat are going to sustainably
work in your life.
That holistic, patient-centeredapproach is where it's at.
It's where it's at for a lot ofthings and less acute
conditions, but for the mostpart, anything preventative, any
of that.
It's all about this big pictureall the factors in your life,
lifestyle, genetics, all of it.
So I love that, because that'swhere it's at, where the real
(37:51):
healing's at.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
And it's not that we can't do these things in tandem
with medicine, right?
I mean, most of my clients arealso seeing a physician.
Maybe they're also seeing aphysical therapist, Maybe
they're doing different kinds oftreatments or getting regular
checkups with their surgeon fortheir pain issues.
Right, these things are notmutually exclusive.
They can work together.
(38:12):
Right, these things are notmutually exclusive.
They can work together right.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
But sometimes they don't need them more as much
medical when they start working.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Most, I mean I.
I I have to my clients.
I have zero opinion on whatthey're doing with their doctor,
because that's not my role.
I will say that most of themfind over time that they need to
spend less time at thechiropractor and they need to do
less, you know, like tests andstuff with their doctor because
they're feeling better.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah, I love that.
That's so powerful.
Well, man, I have reallyappreciated this.
I feel like you are very, veryarticulate at communicating
these ideas and I appreciate it.
I feel like you are very, veryarticulate at communicating
these ideas and I appreciate it.
I feel like my listeners willappreciate it too.
So what if someone is listeningto this and they're like man, I
really want to.
I want to talk to you, I wantto work with Mandy.
(39:04):
Where would you send them first?
Speaker 2 (39:07):
So yeah, I I know you'll have a link for the ebook
.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yeah, I'm going to.
All of Mandy's links will be inthe show notes.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
There's a bunch, so yeah you'll have a link for the
ebook I would.
That's going to be probably thebest way to sort of enter my
ecosystem, because I have a lotthat I can offer once you're in
the ecosystem.
So once you request that ebook,you'll get a link for it, but
also you'll be on my email listso I can tell you about all of
(39:34):
the other cool things I'm doing.
Another option would be to justlook at my YouTube channel,
movement for healing.
I have lots and lots ofmovement resources on there.
I do a webinar once every fewmonths, which is pain specific.
The last one that I did wasabout the role of fear and
(39:57):
chronic pain.
The one before that wasspecifically travel tips for
people.
We're always doing cool stuff.
The next one is actuallyspecifically about the menopause
and perimenopause experienceand chronic pain.
Oh, powerful right now, yeah,and that one's coming up in um,
I think, at the end of August.
So if you request that ebook,then you'll get on that list and
(40:19):
I'll tell you when I have coolresources coming up, all of
which are free.
Um, if you're like, okay, Ithink this is for me, I really
need to talk to her individuallyabout my specific pain problem.
I think I've also provided youa link to schedule a 25 minute
free call with me so we candiscuss if working together
(40:40):
would be a good idea for you.
If I can help you.
I also run group programs,which I sort of love the most
because it adds that communityaspect.
So the next group program isspecifically regarding women in
the perimenopause experience andchronic pain.
So, yeah, that's all myresources.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
I love that.
I'm so excited I'm going toafter this, I'm going to talk to
you about some of the othernonprofits I work with around
this.
I feel like there's just somany people out there that if
they just need to know you exist, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
So thank you for having me on so I can talk to
people, because I don't thinkpeople know how many options
they have.
I don't know how much powerthey have and maybe is it going
to eliminate your pain 100%.
No, there's no treatment that'sgoing to eliminate it 100%.
But I know in the worst days ofmy pain experience I would have
taken a 15 or 20% improvement.
Right Anything to help you.
(41:40):
Yeah, and certainly we can domuch, much better than that.
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
So one thing I ask all my guests, I want to ask you
before I go, is so what is yourgo-to?
My gosh, I don't want tobutcher it.
I always used to say self-care,but now I say self.
Oh, my gosh, dr Lori Lawcorrected me and she told me to
call it.
Oh man, I'm going to have tolook it up for the next one.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Anyway, she's like don't say self-care anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Say self and now I can't remember it.
So sorry, dr Lori Laws, I willfind out.
I will look it up.
I'm blanking today because I'mtired, but what's your go-to
self-care when things aregetting overwhelming, the way
that you bring you back to you?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
It's for me.
I am in love with heavyresistance training, and that's
something that I think a lot ofwomen avoid Obviously, we know
that but especially women withchronic pain, and I used to too.
But what I discovered when Istarted strength training, heavy
resistance training about fouryears ago was that it actually
(42:42):
helps my pain issue.
I'm in significantly less painsignificantly less pain having a
regular strength trainingregimen.
I work out in the gym five daysa week.
I do cardio every day, and forme, it's what makes me feel
empowered, it's what makes mefeel like myself.
It helps to regulate my nervoussystem.
It helps to turn down thesensitivity on my pain.
(43:05):
It's everything.
It's everything.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
That's a new one too, like that's not one when
someone said before.
So I think how powerful and howrelated to your message so well
.
Thank you so much for coming onand sharing your knowledge.
Like I really appreciate it.
I feel like this is one ofthose, those topics that just
needs more light, needs moreattention for people to know
what's out there and that theydon't have to accept the way
(43:32):
things are right now.
They do have options, there'schanges possible.
So I think this is so powerful.
Thank you so much.
That was very well said, thankyou, thank you.
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UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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