April 14, 2025 • 54 mins
Hi!! I would love to hear from you!
When Stephanie Konter O'Hara—a mental health therapist with over 13 years of experience—became a mother, she discovered something surprising: all her professional training couldn't prepare her for the emotional tsunami of postpartum anxiety. "I thought I knew what to expect," she shares candidly. "I was definitely not prepared for everything that I experienced emotionally in postpartum."
This powerful conversation explores the hidden realities of maternal mental health that aren't covered in typical birth preparation classes. Stephanie reveals critical information every expectant and new parent should know, including the surprising fact that most women experiencing postpartum depression feel most suicidal between months eight and ten—not during the initial newborn phase when most support is concentrated. We discuss the biological perfect storm of physical recovery, severe sleep deprivation, and hormonal fluctuations that create unique vulnerabilities during this transition.
Stephanie's insights go beyond the standard warnings about postpartum blues, diving into practical advice for building effective support systems and finding the right healthcare providers who truly listen. She emphasizes that typical "baby blues" should only last about two weeks—anything beyond that warrants professional support. For partners, family members, and friends, she offers guidance on providing meaningful support without judgment, starting with the simple question: "How can I support you?"
The discussion extends beyond the immediate postpartum period to explore how women's hormonal shifts throughout life—from new motherhood through perimenopause—profoundly affect values, relationships, and identity. This conversation offers validation for anyone navigating these transitions and practical guidance for building the support systems necessary to thrive through them.
Subscribe now to hear more conversations about the real, unfiltered experiences of women's health journeys and join our community of listeners seeking authentic dialogue about life's most challenging transitions.
Stephanie Konter-O'Hara, LPC, ACS is passionate about making space in the world for everyone to be themselves and live in the most connected and authentic way that they can. She is a Mom, Podcaster (Redefining US), Licensed Mental Health Therapist, Group Practice Owner of WellMinded Counseling and author of the workbook Becoming Mommy. She truly loves to help people explore their relationships with themselves and believes that we should all surround ourselves with more opportunities to connect with our village.
Here is her website: https://wellmindedcounseling.com/redefining-us-podcast
Link to her workbook: https://a.co/d/b462dWn
Socials (instagram and facebook) @wellmindedcounseling
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to Empowered Ease.
My guest today is StephanieConter O'Hara.
She is a mental healththerapist, specializing in
anxiety and postpartum issues.
She's also the host of theRedefining Us podcast, author of
the Becoming Mommy workbook andfounder of the Well-Minded
(00:26):
Counseling Group Practice.
Welcome, Stephanie, how are you?
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to talk to you andhave your listeners tune in.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm so excited for you to be here.
It sounds like you are doing awhole whole lot, which is
exciting, but all very relevantthings.
I'm loving this postpartum vibe, so tell me a little bit about
where your focus is at thesedays or what you're focusing on
right now.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah.
So I would say I've beenworking with a lot of women both
in postpartum and someperimenopause, because that
tends to happen with the womenthat I've worked with.
They're usually moms that arebecoming moms a little bit later
in life, so they'reexperiencing this like
postpartum experience and then,not too shortly after, edging
(01:18):
into perimenopause.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
That's not fair, not fair at all.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
No, it's not fair.
And so, yeah, I think I'm kindof learning more about
perimetopause as I go, justbecause that's the needs of the
clients that I'm serving.
But most of the training thatI've gotten formally is in
postpartum work.
But historically I've beenworking with women with like
(01:44):
eating disorders and anxiety andjust trauma in general.
I've been a therapist for 13years, so this is kind of like
the evolution of my work as aclinician.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I love that.
I mean, I feel like a lot ofthose things are tied together
to or can exacerbate another, soit's like a great foundation to
have with this kind of work andI feel like it's a very this
very untalked about issue wasbecoming more talked about.
But a lot of women that I'vetalked to I personally am not a
mother, but I have, likeeveryone in my circle that I've
talked to they have like theirstory and their experience and
(02:17):
it's so different for all ofthem.
But I feel like a lot of peoplefeel blindsided and this kind
of stuff helps with that.
So I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So tell me a little bit about what inspired your
journey to this postpartum work.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, so, as I mentioned, I've been a therapist
for 13 years and when I had mychild, I think it was like on
year 11.
So she's not too old yet, it'sonly 19 months.
But I had a relatively smooth,emotionally speaking pregnancy,
(02:55):
nothing like completelyunexpected.
And then, when I got into thepostpartum phase, it was very
unexpected and again like in mybrain I was like, oh, like I
know what to expect, like I'm atherapist, like I can manage
these things.
I know quote unquote all thecoping skills there are, to know
.
Rationalizing to yourself here,exactly, and I was.
(03:20):
There was a rude awakening, Iguess.
I was definitely not preparedfor everything that I
experienced emotionally inpostpartum and it became very
apparent to me that in my localcommunity there wasn't a lot of
people that I found through asimple Google search that were
(03:44):
dedicated to this work.
I found more like nationalorganizations and like more
resources on that like front,but or maybe resources for like
a pelvic floor PT, which totallylove them, that's needed, or
like a lactation consultant orlike a health coach that was
(04:05):
focused on like the nutritionalaspects, or you know, all of
these other care providers whichhats off to them, love that
they exist.
But as far as finding thetherapist that focused on this,
it felt a little lacking.
And so I found PostpartumSupport International in my
desperation of looking for aprovider and then kind of like
(04:27):
learned everything that I neededto know through that.
But I would say it felt I don'twant to say too late, but I
experienced a lot of myemotional turmoil personally,
from like one month to like fivemonths postpartum.
It was like the most intenseperiod for me and I had found
(04:52):
Postpartum Support Internationallike six months, in which was
still helpful but, definitelynot during the peak of my I
would call it a quote unquotecrisis.
I wasn't in crisis, would callit a quote unquote crisis.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I wasn't in crisis, but I felt emotionally like I
was in crisis.
So, as a mental healthprofessional, what is that like?
I mean, I've worked like beforeI became a critical care nurse.
I worked in mental health likeas, like you know, a tech and I
worked a little bit as a nurse.
So I feel, like you know, evenI judge myself a little bit.
It's hard sometimes.
So, yeah, share a little bitabout what that's like.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, so I already know this about myself going
into postpartum, but I have apredisposition to be very
anxious, worrying about thingsleft and right.
Health tends to be one of themany features of my anxiety.
So the anxiety not just wasabout my health, but also my
(05:50):
daughter's health, and so Iwould find myself fixated on
like is she breathing?
Like am I going to fall whileholding her as I walk down the
stairs?
Is she eating enough?
Is she sleeping enough?
What is her brain developmentlike?
Is she meeting all of hermilestones correctly?
Like I just became I'm going touse the word obsessive about
(06:14):
these things to a point where itwas consuming most of my day,
like doing research or likewatching her or like talking to
other people about what is yourkid doing?
Like is my kid behind?
And I just really it was reallyall consuming for me, um, and I
don't really think I could, likereally take a deep breath until
(06:38):
she was in daycare, and I knowthat might seem weird for some
people, but it kind of felt like, oh, there's these other people
that are going to help me, helpher get reach her milestones,
because these are trainedprofessionals on, like, child
development, like I don't needto become the expert in this
(07:00):
anymore, because now I havethese other care people like in
my life that are going to helpher like reach these milestones
that I was so afraid that like Ididn't know enough to help her
reach, or I couldn't keep herhealthy enough, or all these
beliefs that I had about myself.
So I really yeah, I got reallywound up about that and that was
(07:24):
like my experience and like,upon reflection, I was like, oh,
it's a little obsessive,compulsive of me and my anxiety,
I think, just like reached adifferent level than it is
typically during that time yeah,do you think it was like the
break of going like once youhave a little break to like,
(07:45):
have a little self-awareness oflike, what's going on, or like
having that like, oh, finallysomeone I can trust with them.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So I take a little moment for myself and like, oh
my god, things aren't right.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, I think that played a big part of it was
having the break, having otherpeople I could trust, like now
part of what I would considerlike my team and like my village
, and then also, um, mybreastfeeding journey became a
little less intense.
(08:18):
During that.
I had what people wouldprobably consider like an
oversupply, and so I think thehormones that are involved in
having, uh yeah, like a too muchsupply like contributed to a
lot of these things again, somuch that I learned afterwards,
like I learned all of this inlike month six of like oh,
(08:40):
that's probably why, like I wasexperiencing all of this.
But I yeah, I would go in my I'mgetting into the weeds here but
my baby like did not want totake a bottle.
So I was like breastfeeding heralmost like exclusively.
Despite my best efforts oftrying to get her to take a
bottle, she would just likerefuse.
(09:01):
She's a very strong-willedlittle one.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I don't think that's in the weeds, though.
That's all part of it.
You know what I mean, becausethere's the different kinds of
kids, everyone's like that'spart of it's balancing your
unique little little creatureyou just made and also yourself
and all this stuff going on.
You know, like, yeah, there'sso much involved.
So did you have, um, what kindof support did you have, like
(09:27):
postpartum?
I guess yeah, did you have alot of support and it just
didn't feel like enough?
Or did you have less support,or that's a good question.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I think I had support , but maybe I isolated myself
almost and it was like no oneknows the whole story, Like no
one knows the whole truth,because like I'm with this baby
24 hours a day and like, oh,they could say like, oh,
Stephanie, you should do this,or oh, Stephanie, you should do
(10:00):
that, and like my brain likecould not accept that
information.
Because what ended up happening, too, is like everyone has
different feedback, Everyone hasdifferent opinions, Everyone
has different ideas, and I waslike none of this is like the
exact same.
(10:20):
So how do I do this quoteunquote right, If my mom is
saying this, my mother-in-lawsaying this and the doctor
saying this and Google sayingthis and my friend is saying
this?
I was like so overwhelmed withinformation that I then feel
like I isolated myself to try tolike get away from the noise,
(10:41):
and I think that's kind of how Igenerally manage my anxiety,
but I think in this moment itjust was like more intense
because of everything that wasgoing on.
I think if I had more physicalsupport, I would have been able
to get that break that I feltlike I had during her going to
(11:04):
daycare.
I live across the country frommy parents and my in-laws and
most of my friends also liveacross the country.
I have other people herephysically, but they have their
own lives and they weren't likenecessarily coming over my house
to like watch my baby.
Nor do I think I maybe wouldhave let them like, yeah, Like I
(11:28):
don't know, like you know howmuch experience you have, your
degree in child education, LikeI found myself very protective.
My partner was definitelyaround and helpful, but he had a
full-time job and I was stayinghome for the first like four
months.
Um, I mean, don't even get mestarted on paternity and
maternity leave in this country.
(11:49):
It's like absolutely ridiculousLike, yeah, my husband had to
use his sick time and all of hisPTO to even like, take time off
in the first month to helpsupport us.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
And a lot of women have to do that too.
You know what I mean.
It's like everyone's using alltheir PTO and all their sick
time just to try to bond withyour new, your new little family
member.
It's not fair, yeah no.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So, yes, I had support, but it wasn't in person
physical support to that itwould have been helpful.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and it's hard to take advice, too, for people
that aren't there, and theneveryone wants to share their
experience and you're likethat's beautiful, but that's not
exactly what I'm going through.
Yeah, yes, so what was like theturning point?
What's the point that?
Like, split it for you?
Yeah, if there was one.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well, I do think her going to daycare was helpful.
And then really, when shestarted sleeping, I had read
some like nonsense on theinternet about I say nonsense
now, but then I thought it waslike the gospel about like child
attachment.
As a therapist, like having,like having attachment concerns
(12:58):
was like high priority.
And I read somewhere that, likechildren need one person to
like really attach themselves toin order to have like secure
attachment, which, looking back,I'm like there have been
millennia that there have beenmultiple people around a child
(13:21):
that they have been able toattach to in order to still
develop secure attachment.
But I had read something thatas long as I have one person I
think I read it as mean like Ihave to be this one person.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Right, that's my job.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, that is like my sole purpose right now is to be
this like secure attachmentfigure um.
And so I read that they neededthat for like the first six
months.
So I felt like I couldn't givemyself a break until then.
So I think when that time hadhit, I at six months, I was like
, okay, now I can like take adeep breath.
But if I were to redo it allover again, I was like, okay,
now I can like take a deepbreath.
But if I were to redo it allover again, I would have like
(14:02):
reminded myself that like, oh,they just need a secure
attachment that doesn'tnecessarily need to be like me
100% of the time.
Like it could also be mypartner, it can also be a nanny,
it could also be my brother, itcould also be, you know, my
sister.
Like it doesn't need to be justme that she has a secure
attachment with.
But I think my brain and mypanic like forgot basic
(14:26):
information.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
That's so common, though.
Like as a nurse, like I hear somany moms when they're in the
ER with their little one,they're like I just can't like
have so much appreciation forpeople who break it down for me,
Like I'm not a nurse becauseI'm not in my nurse brain, like
that's not what's going on inthere, I'm in my mom brain and I
don't not thinking likeanything but that.
So you know, yeah, yeah, it'sscary, so scary, yes, so scary.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
And I and I don know I took all these classes to like
prep for birth and like prepfor like the first two weeks.
And looking back, I keep likethinking to myself like if there
was like a prep class of likehow to be an attuned parent that
was like available at thehospital Not that I had to go
(15:17):
like digging for like on theinternet, but like something
that was widely available, thatI wouldn't have to like again, I
go back to like I just wasn'tthinking about that, like I
wasn't thinking about how I wasgoing to experience postpartum.
I was thinking about takingcare of the baby, because that's
what all of the classes and thebooks that were suggested to me
(15:39):
were about.
Like there was no realinformation suggested to me
about how I was going toexperience postpartum and what I
might go through, and I thinkthat would have been really
helpful to be available prior.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, so.
Is that what this workbook isabout?
This Becoming Mommy yes, so.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Becoming Mommy is basically that, in that it helps
women go through differentexercises.
Well, first realizing theimportance of going through them
is like the intro, but theexercises themselves are really
set up to help women identifywhat their values are, how they
want to show up, figure out whothey want in their village and
(16:26):
to go back to like expressingthe importance of their village.
It doesn't need to be just youto try to help moms get out of
this like isolationist, likemindset that they might find
themselves in.
So, yeah, the workbook, Ibelieve, has like some 20
exercises in it to really helpwomen, like hopefully in a very
(16:46):
like clear path, like get to aplace where they feel like
prepared to go through their ownemotional journey in postpartum
.
So there's like very littleinformation about taking care of
a baby in there, cause that'snot what this workbook was
supposed to be about.
It's about like taking care ofyou, like as the mom.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, that'd be such a great gift for a mom too, like
an expecting mom, cause I feellike it's just not something on
many people's radars, like yousaid, because it's like we're
programmed to think about theother things first, the baby
first.
Obviously, right, you're sohyper focused on that, but how
wonderful, is there any?
(17:26):
So I'm guessing you work withthese women one-on-one quite a
bit now.
Women in postpartum is theretypical things that you see?
I know you said personally youranxiety is really high in
general.
So are there other typicalthings that you think women?
I know you said personally youranxiety is really high in
general.
So are there other typicalthings that you think women
experience?
Cause I've heard of the likehovering, like I, if I take my
(17:46):
eyes off them, something couldhappen.
You know that kind of anxiety.
But I feel like there's othermanifestations in postpartum
that women experience aretypical too.
Can you name some of those?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, so I think postpartum depression has the
highest incidence of peoplebeing like experiencing that,
and a lot of it has to do withlike I'm not a good enough
mother for this baby, or like Iam incapable of taking care of
this baby or someone else wouldbe better off taking care of
(18:16):
them than I am to take care ofthem.
These are kind of like thethings that you might hear
someone in postpartum depressionsaying.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Is it like an imposter syndrome, kind of
exaggerated by hormones?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yes, I definitely think it is like a certain level
of imposter syndrome thathappens.
And then there's this likegrief or a loss that shows up
around, like oh, my life is nolonger the same.
Like I'm different, my life isdifferent.
Like where is the old me?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
like yeah, like in an instant.
There's a constant thing therethat is on your mind, that will
never be off your mind again yes, so there's like this huge
transition that creates thislike grief feeling oh yeah, for
your old you.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, so much sense in your old life and your old
relationship.
Even like now, your partnershipis no longer a partnership, like
, like you're in a familydynamic and like so how do you
shift?
That becomes a big questionthat women tend to wrestle with
and I think that can also, youknow, create feelings of loss or
(19:30):
grief because now they are notjust you know, oh, this is my
partner.
Like, oh, this is the father ofmy child, or this is the you
know wife, this is my partner.
Like, oh, this is the father ofmy child or this is the you
know wife of my child.
Like, it happens both ways.
Even a lot of men experiencepostpartum depression as well.
It just manifests differently.
I'm not an expert in that, butthat does exist for women who
(19:54):
are like why it makes sense,because that role changes too.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
You know what I mean.
Their their role of the kind ofattention they get and the kind
of care they get, also becauseyou don't have that kind of
energy.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yes, so a woman's effort towards the man changes,
but also their own efforttowards themselves changes, just
like it does with the women.
Like now I have to take care ofthis other person.
I can't just like go blow offsteam and play video games or
watch a sports game or go hangout with my buddies Like I now
need to be here, like for thisbaby.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
So I think if both people are experiencing this
huge life transition, whichcould again like the loss and
grief I think is pretty common,and transitions at the same time
are so hard in a relationshipanyway, you know what I mean.
We go through them one at atime.
Yeah, exactly, oh gosh, okay,so I love this.
(20:48):
This is great info.
Um, what do you?
Do you say, say the worst of itis typically the first five
months after, or?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I think it depends.
So it's interesting fact thatmost women who experience
postpartum depression orpostpartum anxiety typically
feel the most suicidal betweenmonths eight and ten interesting
.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Okay, that is very good to know.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I think it really has a lot to do with at least this
is.
I don't want to like bash onresearch institutions, but
there's not a lot of researchinto this.
It's more of just like whatthey've found from experience.
But I think if they did taketime to research this, my
anecdotal opinion is like in thefirst zero to eight months,
(21:37):
like your baby needs you, like alot, and at eight months they
start becoming a little bit moreindependent, like they start
crawling.
Usually they start eating moresolid foods.
So I think what happens?
Again, there's no researchreally diving deep into this.
There should be.
I don't know when that's goingto happen.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Hopefully there will be all the other women related
issues under study.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yes, but I think there's this like kind of like
with when people takeantidepressants, right Like
there's this phase where you'relike in the deep of it and you
can't, you're not even motivatedto do anything, and then when
you get on an antidepressant,usually the depression starts to
lift and you have more energy,and then that can lead to more
(22:22):
suicidal acts.
And so I think the same sort ofmechanism is happening here, of
like why most suicidalideations and acts in postpartum
happen between eight to 10months, because there is a
energy like level that you'regetting at that phase in
postpartum.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You're not just surviving anymore, you get a
little space to think about whatyou're actually, how you feel,
and it can hit hard, I wouldguess, especially if you cause.
When you're in survival mode,you're not processing anything,
you're just doing, yes, whichyou're lacking sleep so much.
So you're definitely insurvival mode.
Oh yeah, well that's powerfulto know.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, so to be like monitoring that for yourself, or
if you know someone that's inpostpartum, if you're a
therapist that works with thisor even any other provider, to
just be more mindful that therisks of hurting themselves or
committing suicide is betweeneight to 10 months.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Okay, so let's get into some of the advice you've
got and the tips and what peopleshould be looking for and how
to support and all of that,because, yeah, I want to know
now.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Well, I think the first thing is like remembering
that typical baby blues isreally only the first two weeks.
Like, if you're experiencinganxiety, depression, after that
point, it is time to seek likeadditional support.
Like I think people think thatit's just normal to feel
depressed or like normal to feelanxious I know that was part of
my story um, like oh, this isjust how it is.
(23:58):
Like yes, that can be quote,unquote how it is, but that
doesn't mean you need to do italone.
Like that means that you shouldseek out support, that you
should go talk to a provider andreach out to those resources,
because if it lasts longer thantwo weeks, it means it's like
clinically significant enough tospeak to someone, because at a
(24:20):
clinical level, like usuallyonly 20 to 30% of women like
experience this past the firsttwo weeks.
So if you're a part of that,like there is support and there
are professionals out there tohelp.
So I just wanted to say thatbecause I think normalizing that
you need to reach out ishelpful.
(24:43):
Another thing that I think isreally helpful to know is having
other women in your corner thatare going through something
similar to you is really helpful.
So finding community, whetherthat's like in a support group,
whether that's in a mom group,that you find like just
connecting with other women whoare in the same phase of life as
(25:05):
you, because I do think it'sreally difficult for someone
who's not in the thick of it toone remember what it was like,
because I've heard plenty ofpeople say like oh, that was
like five years ago, I don'teven remember what it was like,
I just blacked it out.
Like that's not helpful for youwhen you're in it.
I mean, other women who are insimilar spots as you could be
really helpful.
So, again, online supportgroups there's like mommy
(25:30):
support groups kind of things,mommy support groups, therapy
support groups.
There's this organizationcalled mommy's dad that I
connected with.
That is this woman who's reallylike a saint, who connects
women with other women based ontheir due dates and their
geographical location, and soyou can connect with other moms
(25:52):
who are literally going throughit at the time that you're going
through it, without having tolike leave your house.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Oh genius, what's her name?
Her?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
name.
Oh my goodness, I'm horrible atremembering.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
It's okay, we can look at it later.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Her group is called MAMISTAD.
It's M-A-M-I-S-T-A-D, so that'sgreat.
Postpartum SupportInternational also does groups
that are free that you can join,and they have local chapters
that you can be a part of.
So, yeah, I think that's.
Another really big thing that Iwanted to share is like you
(26:26):
don't have to go through thislike alone, and I love that you
said that every episode it comesup and people that listen to
this are like, oh, here it comes.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
But like women healing community, I say all the
time like we need each other tovalidate each other because we
don't validate ourselves, so wehave to share our stories and
hear other people's and I lovethat this is so relevant in like
everything we talk about, likebirth, like especially birth
right, because back in the daywe probably did this surrounded
by a lot more women with a lotmore experience.
(26:55):
It's a very like solo processnow in our culture and I think
that it's normal to be like feelalone and scared and sad Cause
I think really traditionallywomen huddled around each other
in these times and we don't havethat anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, and looking for other providers, I think also
helps.
Like in my experience, evenjust talking to other women,
they're like oh, I didn't evenknow pelvic floor, like PT
existed, like I didn't know thatthere were like sleep
consultants that had like avariety of ideas, not just the
cried out method.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Like providers that speak to what you need, not just
like what they think is best,is really important.
So making sure that there is analignment between you and your
provider is super, superimportant.
Just like I would say with atherapist like not every
therapist is going to fit you.
Like not every PT is going tofit you.
(27:51):
Not every lactation consult isgoing to fit you.
Like, do the hard work.
Unfortunately, it's hard workto like find the right provider.
Yes, settling for one is onlygoing to lead you to feel more
in misalignment with yourselfand your values and your goals,
and you don't have time for thatas a mom to feel in
misalignment with what you need.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
That's the best advice in every aspect of health
.
If a provider is not taking youseriously or somehow blows off
what you say or bounces over you, that is not the one for you in
any way.
You need somebody that hearsyou when you talk and when you
bring up a concern likeaddresses that, and if they
don't there, that's not the oneyou need to be seeing straight
(28:36):
up, yes, with your OB, with yourtherapist, with everybody, with
your cardiologist, like all ofthem.
So I love that you said that,cause that's great advice, and I
don't think we feel a lot ofpeople feel empowered to switch
providers.
We just think they're all thatway and that's not true.
They may be harder to find, butthere are people who care and
listen to you, and maybe it'sjust like a personality thing
(28:59):
too.
Maybe that provider listens toother people.
You just need to find the onethat listens to you.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
So but yeah, and if you're yeah, I was going to say
if your provider like doesn'tlisten to you, like it's okay to
say like hey, you're notactually hearing me, this is
what I said.
Like just because they'reexperts I'm using quotes for
those that people that can'thear or see me experts like
(29:24):
doesn't mean they're an expertin you.
You're an expert in you.
So advocating for what you needin that moment is super helpful
.
My workbook kind of talks aboutthat too, of like different
ways to approach providers whenyou feel unheard by them.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
But someone with you who does feel confident to like.
I don't think that's weird atall If you have some mouthy
nurse in your family, like me,and you want someone to go with
you to feel like help.
You ask questions Sometimes.
I think that, like you know,that's also very appropriate.
Maybe your husband's a littlebetter asking questions than you
, so you bring him along andhave him back you up.
Whatever it is.
(30:01):
I think that's helpful too Ifyou just need a little.
Some of us have helped pushingback, so bring someone with you
who will help you push back, ifthat's what you need, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And having like clear expectations or clear ideas
about what you want I think ishelpful too, rather than just
being like, oh, whatever happenshappens like both in the
delivery room and in thepostpartum care.
Like having an idea of what youwant or having someone there
that can help you like figureout what you want and advocate
(30:32):
for you is really important.
I love doulas for this.
This reason, so I definitelyencourage people to find one.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Do you listen to?
Something was wrong.
That podcast you've ever heard.
No, I don't this episode isabout birth trauma, which don't
listen to it.
If you're like you know, don'tlisten to birth trauma if you're
having a baby.
But if you're post it and youneed and you've had some kind of
birth trauma, it's great tolisten to.
It's very validating.
But one thing they stress inthat a lot is like having
someone with you who's there foryou, like in your birth
(31:03):
experience, because really whenyou go have a baby, it becomes
about the baby A lot of it,which is great.
That's what you want as a mom,right, but you need someone
who's there for you and a lot oftimes a doula.
They've been there a lot andthey are dedicated to you.
They're a great person toexplain what's going on.
That's normal art.
No, that's not really normal.
So that's a great person tohave there for you.
Cause a lot of people you gointo healthcare.
(31:23):
Even though I'm a nurse, I'm inhealthcare all the time.
I would have no idea what we'redoing in OB.
Whenever I've had OB patients,I like grab those nurses and I'm
like help me, I don't knowanything about this.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
So yeah, and there's postpartum doulas which, again,
even in my being pregnant, Ididn't realize that that was a
thing like having someone therefor your care in postpartum?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, and now, like you were saying, you live across
the country from your family Ido too.
I think that's so common too,where, like, it's not
necessarily your mom and yourmother-in-law can just drive
right over.
You know what I mean, and maybethey can, but still, can they
drive over every day?
Can they really be there?
Are you really connected withthem?
There's so much at play there.
You really have to find thesupport that works for you.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Your in-laws or your mother lives in the same town.
I'd also just want to givevoice to people who are retiring
later in life.
Both my mom and mymother-in-law work full time, so
even though they came to visitme and even though they're
available for phone calls andtexts like they couldn't be
available for probably how muchI wanted or needed someone of it
(32:31):
, or how much they probablywanted to do honestly, yeah,
that's true, exactly Right.
So like having someone that'sthat's their job or their role
to be a support to you is reallyhelpful.
So, even if you don't liveacross the country from your
family, like getting thatsupport is, I think, so
important and like under valuedpotentially from like the
(32:56):
perspective of like you don'tknow that you need it until you
need it, sort of thing?
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, for sure, I see that a ton.
So is there any other kind ofadvice for you?
Have women going into this tohelp them prepare?
I know this workbook is greatand honestly I think it's a
great gift for anyone.
You guys know people have ababy, so it's a great gift.
But what other advice would yougive for women?
Or maybe, like I kind of wantto say, like you I know you said
(33:25):
past the first two to fourweeks, but other signs maybe to
identify in themselves thatmaybe you need to reach out and
ask for a little help, Becauseyou know I'm one of those people
I'm usually like so deep in itbefore I realized, like what did
I do?
I buried myself.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Well, I do think it's important to say that if you've
already have a predispositionto have mental health issues
like, you're probably going toexperience that in postpartum.
So just be aware of that andmaybe seek out support
beforehand or have a plan foryour aftercare.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Would you say sorry to interrupt you, but would you
say it exacerbates for people,kind of, the struggles they
already have.
Or would you say, let some.
There's things that are totallydifferent as well.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Or I think it.
Yeah, well, both right.
Like it exacerbates thesituation.
If you've already, if youalready have anxiety, if you
already have depression, you'regoing to be very likely to have
that.
I think it's some.
I can't remember the statbecause I don't have a brain for
that necessarily, but theirnumbers don't stick.
(34:30):
Unfortunately, a lot of peopleeven get diagnosed with bipolar
disorder in postpartum.
So even if you haven'tpreviously been diagnosed with a
mental health condition like,it can show up in postpartum
because you're in the most likehormonally dysregulated, like
moment in postpartum andunfortunately, people experience
(34:53):
psychosis in postpartum thathave never experienced psychosis
before.
So I just want to talk reallybriefly about this because I
think people there's this fearthat if I tell someone that I
have mental health issues, thatthey're going to take my baby
away from me.
So I just wanted to voice thatthat there might be reservations
(35:16):
to seek the support if you'reconcerned about that.
But an educated provider isgoing to know the difference
between I'm anxious that mybaby's going to get hurt or I'm
anxious that my baby is going,that I'm going to hurt my baby,
compared to I want to hurt mybaby right or like I'm going to
do this to my baby.
(35:37):
And even if you do feel likeyou want to do that, like if you
have the wherewithal to saylike I need help, like still get
help, like they will probablyput you in a place to get that
help and you might, they mightput your baby in the care of
your partner or a family memberduring that time.
(35:57):
But it's still better to getthat help than to not, because I
don't.
Again, I don't want to get tothe dark side of this too much,
but, like so many women whoexperienced psychosis that end
up hurting their baby, there'svery little forgiveness in the
courts for that, even thoughyou're experiencing a psychotic
break that you didn't plan foror anticipate or want.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, and do you think that I mean I would?
I can only like guess to bewhat it would be like to be in
that place, but I would guessthat there's a lot of fear going
on about reaching out, a lot offear that's keeping, that's
exacerbating it, but also likethat's a really scary place to
be to reach out to somebody andsay like I mean, I had scary
(36:41):
thoughts during burnout andtelling someone that was like oh
my god, the hurdle.
That is the shame, the shamethat comes with sharing that
kind of stuff sometimes, eventhough it's totally normal.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I think it's so normal.
I haven't done any likeresearch or read any research on
this, but I think the amount ofwomen that think to themselves
like, especially late at night,when you're up and you've slept
like maybe five hours of brokensleep, thinking to yourself like
I can't do this or like someoneelse would be better off doing
(37:14):
this Almost every woman thatI've spoken to like has that
thought Like that is just socommon of an experience.
So like just know that you'renot alone.
Like, if you have thosefeelings in the middle of the
night, like it is brutal to havea physical trauma of giving
birth, whether you deliveredvaginally or through a C-section
(37:35):
, that's a physical trauma ofgiving birth, whether you
delivered vaginally or through aC-section, that's a physical
trauma.
And then you immediately gointo a perimenopausal state when
you're breastfeeding.
So you have like way lessestrogen, way less progesterone
in your body that normally helpregulate your mood.
Oh my God, the rage.
The rage, yes, also supercommon.
(37:57):
So you go into a perimetopausalstate during the time that
you're breastfeeding, the entiretime, and then you also
experience sleep deprivation.
So now you've had a physicaltrauma, sleep deprivation, and
you're in a perimetopausal stateif you're breastfeeding,
(38:18):
feeding, so the likelihood thatyou're going to feel completely
besides yourself, even if youdon't have a preexisting mental
health condition, is like Idon't know, most people have a
mental health condition becausewe live in this society and it
has a lot of pressure and a lotof us are medicating for, for
this, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
So let's be honest, most people do that.
So much pressure, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
And so I just want to put the yeah and out there that
like there's all of thesecontributing factors.
People are like, oh, I thoughtI was going to be happy having a
baby.
I so I wanted to have a babyfor so long, but this is like
what my dreams were.
And then they have thisexperience where, like holy cow,
like my whole world feelsturned upside down.
(39:00):
Why?
Speaker 1 (39:00):
And I'm like, hey, it's normal, it's normal, it's
normal.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Let's look at everything that has just
happened.
Yeah, you've been sleepdeprived, you are again in a
perimenopausal state and yourbody just experienced a physical
trauma.
Yeah, like, have some gracehave some patience, and that's
best case scenario.
(39:25):
That's best case scenario.
Do you know what I mean?
Yes, that's withoutexperiencing a birth trauma or
having your child born with likea chronic health condition or
anything else in your life goingon stressful too.
You know what?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
I mean, like anything else.
Oh my gosh, I love that you'redoing this.
Okay, so you work with peopleone-on-one in a counseling
practice.
You also have this workbook,and then I'm is this what you
talk about in your podcast too?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
So my podcast does talk about this stuff, but
there's also other people thatcome on and we've talked about
just the transition that womengo through during different
phases of life.
That's what kind of redefiningus is about is like through each
transition, whether it's a newjob or having a baby or a new
marriage or going throughmidlife or experiencing
(40:13):
perimenopause, going throughmidlife or experiencing
perimenopause like women and men.
But the podcast is about womenare going through transitions,
like all of the time, and ineach of these transitions we
have to redefine, like what ourvalues are, who we are, how
we're going to show up forourselves, for our community,
for people in our lives, and sothat's that's what redefining us
is about.
(40:33):
So we do have a lot of people on, just because it's a topic that
I'm interested in right now islike postpartum, but my goal is
to have people who are likeexperts in perimenopause or
experts in going through adivorce and how women continue
to redefine who they are throughthose like life transitions.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
I love that.
I love that.
I find like so that they say,like the age, that of your
midlife crisis is like yourforties, and that's also like a
lot of my clients are in theirlike late thirties to fifties I
would say women.
But it's also the time whereour values shift, like our
hormones are shifting and we'reshifting from like this, like
(41:17):
trying to be, like presentourselves to the world and an
achievement, to like we startvaluing our peace and that a
little more.
And so I think I love that thatyou're focusing on transitions,
because it's so powerful andthat's like a lot of times how I
, why I ended up seeing people,cause we're in this like
powerful transition of lifewhich also involves a lot of
hormone shifts.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
So yes, yeah, I was actually listening to a podcast
by the woman that wrote thepause Mary Claire.
Again, I'm like horrible atnames.
I should really I can relate.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I love this book.
What was her name?
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Okay, I was right, it's Dr Mary Claire, that's her
handle on Instagram, but shewrote this book and she, in the
podcast that I was listening toher share about, she was saying
that a lot of women end upgetting divorced in their
fifties because their values andtheir hormones shift so much in
the perimenopause menopausetransition that they end up like
(42:17):
wanting different things fortheir life than they did when
they were maybe in their 20s and30s when they got married, and
that their partner just has notgone through the same hormonal
shift that they did, which Ithought was really interesting.
Obviously, you can still getthrough your 50s and stay
married if that's what you wantto do.
I don't think every marriageends in, you know, divorce
(42:38):
because of perimenopause ormenopause.
But I do think like yeah, womenare going through transitions
all the time and like honoringthat for yourself is really
important.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Oh yeah, my husband and I.
It's funny because I've beenperimenopausal Anyone who
listens to the show knows likehardcore I just I'm ending this
job, I'm transitioning to newone, but I've been doing like 18
hour days for the past year, soit makes that so much worse,
like so much worse.
That's the reason why I'm likeI'm out of this, I can't handle
it anymore, I'm gonna killsomebody.
But my husband is so funnyCause there's days I it's not
funny in the moment at all, it'sfunny but I wake up and like
(43:10):
I'm a nurse I've been acaregiver my entire life Like I
care.
My husband's like I, you know,probably gets a little more
caregiving than some other women, cause that's just who I am.
But there are days when I wakeup and I don't want to care for
anything not a single otherperson and then there's a part
of and I realized it's hormones.
So it's like, okay, this isgoing to shift in a few days.
(43:32):
But I can't understand theperson I've been most of my life
Like why would I do?
Why do I do all this?
It's so exhausting to thinkabout, it gets me a little down
and I'll get pissed at him overthings I normally don't and he's
like, oh my God, I'm like it'snot like these things aren't
valid.
Okay, they're very valid.
It's just normally I have likea higher threshold for it.
(43:53):
You know, I'm not acting crazy.
I just feel very differentlyabout them right now.
It's like poor you, I'm sosorry, but it's true.
It's like it's so crazy howhormones play such an effect on
that nurturing feeling, becauseto me it's just such a shock
that it can actually be gonesometimes too.
(44:13):
And I'm like oh well, that's anempowering feeling to not feel
like you need to take care ofpeople.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Well, historically, women go, after going through
menopause, like no longer werethe caregivers of the community,
but they were seen as like wisemembers of the community, and
so people would go to them fortheir knowledge and like their
expertise, not necessarily fortheir like caregiving
capabilities that was usuallyreserved for like younger women
(44:40):
in the community.
So I just wanted to validate,like, of course, like your brain
, why am I still caregiving?
That's not what, like biologysays that my body and my brain
should be using its resources.
For now, like now is my time tolike bestow my knowledge and
wisdom on others and be more ina teacher like protector role
(45:01):
and not a caregiving role.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
So oh my gosh, I love that you said that I've I just
recently got like a leadershipjob in healthcare Cause I'm like
, well, I'm going to try to makea difference in this way,
because that's how I feel.
I feel like I'm ready to likebe, you know, not the one doing
the caregiving, but the onemaking the change so it gets
better, which is like, so that'sall fit so well.
So thanks for that.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
yeah, of course yeah, I think it's really important
to look at like, where we'vebeen compared to where we are
now, because, like, clearlythere's wisdom, and like how
communities and tribes existedfor years before the internet,
like how do you think theysurvived?
Speaker 1 (45:36):
yeah, I used to read, get so into.
I can't remember who wrote themishmael, do you ever read that
book back in the day?
No, it's about how a lot of howwe evolve from tribal things
are like hung over in ourculture.
Maybe some of the holdups wehave it's.
It's really interesting.
I love that perspective, butanyway, okay.
So let's say, if women are likestruggling with this, they're
(45:58):
hearing you or say like, um,some of those things, and
they're like, oh my God, that'smy daughter-in-law.
What do you suggest that theydo?
Where, where do they start?
How can they support people?
Speaker 2 (46:09):
or how can they support?
Yeah, I think it's important tocome from a place of like,
empathy and understanding, andnot a place of like you need
this, or like an accusement,accusing judgment.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Watch out for the rage.
Yeah, yeah, because, watch outfor the rage.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
I do think it starts with like you know what?
Like I really want to supportyou.
How can I support you?
Have them share with you whatthey think, first, and then,
like, provide suggestions orresources.
Like hey, I heard this podcast.
Or hey, there's this postpartumsupport international.
Or hey, there's these resources.
Because I think, just coming atit with, like you should do
(46:49):
this, like in general, not justin postpartum, but people aren't
going to listen to that.
So, asking what they think theyneed first and then providing
resources and support, I thinkis a great way to try to
approach helping someone in thisplace and for women who are in
it and struggling, just likewhat would you say to them?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
just reach out, ask for help.
What?
Speaker 2 (47:12):
yeah, no, you're not alone.
First of all, because I thinkthat's super helpful and you're
not crazy.
You're not alone.
First of all, because I thinkthat's super helpful and you're
not crazy, you're not broken andlike you can be a good mom and
you can do the work, like thefact that you even care about
being a good mom like alreadymakes you a good mom.
Yeah, you're there, you'realready there.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
You're wearing yourself sick, you're there.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
So remember that.
And yeah, like you can Google,you can reach out to me.
I can hopefully help provideresources for you in your local
area.
Postpartum supportinternational I can't speak
their praises enough.
That's an excellentorganization based out of Oregon
.
Yeah, where?
Speaker 1 (47:54):
can they find your workbook?
Where can they find your?
Where do you live?
Do you coach um as your therapy?
Just like a restrictive rightnow only do therapy.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
I do have a redefining us community that I'm
trying to get off the ground,that moving together like more
women who are interested intalking about these types of
things.
So that is for anyone in theUnited States, not just those
that are in Colorado, becausethat's where I have my therapy
practice and that's where I'mlicensed, in Colorado and in
(48:26):
Florida.
So you can't work with meone-on-one if you live in either
of those States.
But as far as just connectingin a community sense, I have my
Redefining Us community that youcan find on my website,
wellmindedcounselingcom.
I have my podcast, redefiningUs, that's located on all major
platforms.
Again, you can also find thatinformation on my website and my
(48:48):
Instagram, and I have a YouTubechannel, redefining Us, that
shows all of the podcasts.
My workbook is available on allmajor online retailers so you
can find it anywhere from, like,bookshoporg to amazon, to
barnes and noble to target, like.
If you just get it, you can orsearch it online, you can have
(49:09):
it shipped to your house I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
That's perfect.
Well, it's been so fun talkingto you.
I feel like I could ask youlike a million questions, but it
would be a little off base, somaybe we'll have you back
another time to talk about someother aspects of all of this,
but I loved it.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Is, oh, I want to ask you, Iask everyone this so um, what is
your go-to so like?
Speaker 2 (49:42):
say you're like super stressed out, overwhelmed, shut
down.
What is your go-to self-carewhen things are like getting out
of control that helps you likebring it in?
Yeah, I am someone who reallyis fueled up by alone time.
So if I can take time, even ifit's like 15 to 20 minutes, to
sit and do an activity, itdepends, right, like I think
sometimes I needed to sit downand do an activity.
Sometimes I need to go for awalk.
So those are probably the twothings that I do, depending on
my mood.
If I'm like really overwhelmedand I need a quiet place, I just
(50:05):
like to sit down and color likethat might something a toddler
might do.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
But like I do that too, I have a adult coloring
book.
Yeah, it helps me focus mythoughts sometimes because
there's so much racing.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yes, it's like so, and you can't be anxious when
you're being creative, becauseit actually is using the same
part of your brain, so you can'tbe anxious while you create.
So, if you're anxious, try tosit down and create something,
because you just can't do bothat the same time and create
something, because you justcan't do both at the same time.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
I love that.
I love that.
That's great advice.
Okay, well, I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Is there anything you want to leave us with?
Yeah, I just want more peopleto care about their own
experience in postpartum and fornot just the moms to care about
it but the society, because,like, we're doing something so
significant like raising thenext generation of humans and
like if we don't care about that, like what?
(51:06):
How could we possibly careabout anything else?
Is my opinion.
But yeah, like you have to takecare of the moms because
they're the backbone of society,so taking care of you is really
important.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
I love that You're highlighting such a great issue
too is like there's a lot ofvery understudied things about
women's health and women'shormone shifts throughout life
during pregnancy, afterpregnancy, normal shifts that
come throughout just life.
It's very understudied and um,and we deserve it.
We deserve to know a littlemore.
(51:36):
So I love that one of thepeople are like pushing this and
providing support.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yes, of course, and thank you so much to all of your
listeners.
I really appreciate you givingme the platform to speak to them
.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Well thanks.
Hello and welcome to Empowered Ease.
My guest today is StephanieConter O'Hara.
She is a mental healththerapist, specializing in
anxiety and postpartum issues.
She's also the host of theRedefining Us podcast, author of
the Becoming Mommy workbook andfounder of the Well-Minded
(00:26):
Counseling Group Practice.
Welcome, Stephanie, how are you?
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to talk to you andhave your listeners tune in.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm so excited for you to be here.
It sounds like you are doing awhole whole lot, which is
exciting, but all very relevantthings.
I'm loving this postpartum vibe, so tell me a little bit about
where your focus is at thesedays or what you're focusing on
right now.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah.
So I would say I've beenworking with a lot of women both
in postpartum and someperimenopause, because that
tends to happen with the womenthat I've worked with.
They're usually moms that arebecoming moms a little bit later
in life, so they'reexperiencing this like
postpartum experience and then,not too shortly after, edging
(01:18):
into perimenopause.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
That's not fair, not fair at all.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
No, it's not fair.
And so, yeah, I think I'm kindof learning more about
perimetopause as I go, justbecause that's the needs of the
clients that I'm serving.
But most of the training thatI've gotten formally is in
postpartum work.
But historically I've beenworking with women with like
(01:44):
eating disorders and anxiety andjust trauma in general.
I've been a therapist for 13years, so this is kind of like
the evolution of my work as aclinician.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I love that.
I mean, I feel like a lot ofthose things are tied together
to or can exacerbate another, soit's like a great foundation to
have with this kind of work andI feel like it's a very this
very untalked about issue wasbecoming more talked about.
But a lot of women that I'vetalked to I personally am not a
mother, but I have, likeeveryone in my circle that I've
talked to they have like theirstory and their experience and
(02:17):
it's so different for all ofthem.
But I feel like a lot of peoplefeel blindsided and this kind
of stuff helps with that.
So I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So tell me a little bit about what inspired your
journey to this postpartum work.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, so, as I mentioned, I've been a therapist
for 13 years and when I had mychild, I think it was like on
year 11.
So she's not too old yet, it'sonly 19 months.
But I had a relatively smooth,emotionally speaking pregnancy,
(02:55):
nothing like completelyunexpected.
And then, when I got into thepostpartum phase, it was very
unexpected and again like in mybrain I was like, oh, like I
know what to expect, like I'm atherapist, like I can manage
these things.
I know quote unquote all thecoping skills there are, to know
.
Rationalizing to yourself here,exactly, and I was.
(03:20):
There was a rude awakening, Iguess.
I was definitely not preparedfor everything that I
experienced emotionally inpostpartum and it became very
apparent to me that in my localcommunity there wasn't a lot of
people that I found through asimple Google search that were
(03:44):
dedicated to this work.
I found more like nationalorganizations and like more
resources on that like front,but or maybe resources for like
a pelvic floor PT, which totallylove them, that's needed, or
like a lactation consultant orlike a health coach that was
(04:05):
focused on like the nutritionalaspects, or you know, all of
these other care providers whichhats off to them, love that
they exist.
But as far as finding thetherapist that focused on this,
it felt a little lacking.
And so I found PostpartumSupport International in my
desperation of looking for aprovider and then kind of like
(04:27):
learned everything that I neededto know through that.
But I would say it felt I don'twant to say too late, but I
experienced a lot of myemotional turmoil personally,
from like one month to like fivemonths postpartum.
It was like the most intenseperiod for me and I had found
(04:52):
Postpartum Support Internationallike six months, in which was
still helpful but, definitelynot during the peak of my I
would call it a quote unquotecrisis.
I wasn't in crisis, would callit a quote unquote crisis.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I wasn't in crisis, but I felt emotionally like I
was in crisis.
So, as a mental healthprofessional, what is that like?
I mean, I've worked like beforeI became a critical care nurse.
I worked in mental health likeas, like you know, a tech and I
worked a little bit as a nurse.
So I feel, like you know, evenI judge myself a little bit.
It's hard sometimes.
So, yeah, share a little bitabout what that's like.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, so I already know this about myself going
into postpartum, but I have apredisposition to be very
anxious, worrying about thingsleft and right.
Health tends to be one of themany features of my anxiety.
So the anxiety not just wasabout my health, but also my
(05:50):
daughter's health, and so Iwould find myself fixated on
like is she breathing?
Like am I going to fall whileholding her as I walk down the
stairs?
Is she eating enough?
Is she sleeping enough?
What is her brain developmentlike?
Is she meeting all of hermilestones correctly?
Like I just became I'm going touse the word obsessive about
(06:14):
these things to a point where itwas consuming most of my day,
like doing research or likewatching her or like talking to
other people about what is yourkid doing?
Like is my kid behind?
And I just really it was reallyall consuming for me, um, and I
don't really think I could, likereally take a deep breath until
(06:38):
she was in daycare, and I knowthat might seem weird for some
people, but it kind of felt like, oh, there's these other people
that are going to help me, helpher get reach her milestones,
because these are trainedprofessionals on, like, child
development, like I don't needto become the expert in this
(07:00):
anymore, because now I havethese other care people like in
my life that are going to helpher like reach these milestones
that I was so afraid that like Ididn't know enough to help her
reach, or I couldn't keep herhealthy enough, or all these
beliefs that I had about myself.
So I really yeah, I got reallywound up about that and that was
(07:24):
like my experience and like,upon reflection, I was like, oh,
it's a little obsessive,compulsive of me and my anxiety,
I think, just like reached adifferent level than it is
typically during that time yeah,do you think it was like the
break of going like once youhave a little break to like,
(07:45):
have a little self-awareness oflike, what's going on, or like
having that like, oh, finallysomeone I can trust with them.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So I take a little moment for myself and like, oh
my god, things aren't right.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, I think that played a big part of it was
having the break, having otherpeople I could trust, like now
part of what I would considerlike my team and like my village
, and then also, um, mybreastfeeding journey became a
little less intense.
(08:18):
During that.
I had what people wouldprobably consider like an
oversupply, and so I think thehormones that are involved in
having, uh yeah, like a too muchsupply like contributed to a
lot of these things again, somuch that I learned afterwards,
like I learned all of this inlike month six of like oh,
(08:40):
that's probably why, like I wasexperiencing all of this.
But I yeah, I would go in my I'mgetting into the weeds here but
my baby like did not want totake a bottle.
So I was like breastfeeding heralmost like exclusively.
Despite my best efforts oftrying to get her to take a
bottle, she would just likerefuse.
(09:01):
She's a very strong-willedlittle one.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I don't think that's in the weeds, though.
That's all part of it.
You know what I mean, becausethere's the different kinds of
kids, everyone's like that'spart of it's balancing your
unique little little creatureyou just made and also yourself
and all this stuff going on.
You know, like, yeah, there'sso much involved.
So did you have, um, what kindof support did you have, like
(09:27):
postpartum?
I guess yeah, did you have alot of support and it just
didn't feel like enough?
Or did you have less support,or that's a good question.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I think I had support , but maybe I isolated myself
almost and it was like no oneknows the whole story, Like no
one knows the whole truth,because like I'm with this baby
24 hours a day and like, oh,they could say like, oh,
Stephanie, you should do this,or oh, Stephanie, you should do
(10:00):
that, and like my brain likecould not accept that
information.
Because what ended up happening, too, is like everyone has
different feedback, Everyone hasdifferent opinions, Everyone
has different ideas, and I waslike none of this is like the
exact same.
(10:20):
So how do I do this quoteunquote right, If my mom is
saying this, my mother-in-lawsaying this and the doctor
saying this and Google sayingthis and my friend is saying
this?
I was like so overwhelmed withinformation that I then feel
like I isolated myself to try tolike get away from the noise,
(10:41):
and I think that's kind of how Igenerally manage my anxiety,
but I think in this moment itjust was like more intense
because of everything that wasgoing on.
I think if I had more physicalsupport, I would have been able
to get that break that I feltlike I had during her going to
(11:04):
daycare.
I live across the country frommy parents and my in-laws and
most of my friends also liveacross the country.
I have other people herephysically, but they have their
own lives and they weren't likenecessarily coming over my house
to like watch my baby.
Nor do I think I maybe wouldhave let them like, yeah, Like I
(11:28):
don't know, like you know howmuch experience you have, your
degree in child education, LikeI found myself very protective.
My partner was definitelyaround and helpful, but he had a
full-time job and I was stayinghome for the first like four
months.
Um, I mean, don't even get mestarted on paternity and
maternity leave in this country.
(11:49):
It's like absolutely ridiculousLike, yeah, my husband had to
use his sick time and all of hisPTO to even like, take time off
in the first month to helpsupport us.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
And a lot of women have to do that too.
You know what I mean.
It's like everyone's using alltheir PTO and all their sick
time just to try to bond withyour new, your new little family
member.
It's not fair, yeah no.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So, yes, I had support, but it wasn't in person
physical support to that itwould have been helpful.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and it's hard to take advice, too, for people
that aren't there, and theneveryone wants to share their
experience and you're likethat's beautiful, but that's not
exactly what I'm going through.
Yeah, yes, so what was like theturning point?
What's the point that?
Like, split it for you?
Yeah, if there was one.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well, I do think her going to daycare was helpful.
And then really, when shestarted sleeping, I had read
some like nonsense on theinternet about I say nonsense
now, but then I thought it waslike the gospel about like child
attachment.
As a therapist, like having,like having attachment concerns
(12:58):
was like high priority.
And I read somewhere that, likechildren need one person to
like really attach themselves toin order to have like secure
attachment, which, looking back,I'm like there have been
millennia that there have beenmultiple people around a child
(13:21):
that they have been able toattach to in order to still
develop secure attachment.
But I had read something thatas long as I have one person I
think I read it as mean like Ihave to be this one person.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Right, that's my job.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, that is like my sole purpose right now is to be
this like secure attachmentfigure um.
And so I read that they neededthat for like the first six
months.
So I felt like I couldn't givemyself a break until then.
So I think when that time hadhit, I at six months, I was like
, okay, now I can like take adeep breath.
But if I were to redo it allover again, I was like, okay,
now I can like take a deepbreath.
But if I were to redo it allover again, I would have like
(14:02):
reminded myself that like, oh,they just need a secure
attachment that doesn'tnecessarily need to be like me
100% of the time.
Like it could also be mypartner, it can also be a nanny,
it could also be my brother, itcould also be, you know, my
sister.
Like it doesn't need to be justme that she has a secure
attachment with.
But I think my brain and mypanic like forgot basic
(14:26):
information.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
That's so common, though.
Like as a nurse, like I hear somany moms when they're in the
ER with their little one,they're like I just can't like
have so much appreciation forpeople who break it down for me,
Like I'm not a nurse becauseI'm not in my nurse brain, like
that's not what's going on inthere, I'm in my mom brain and I
don't not thinking likeanything but that.
So you know, yeah, yeah, it'sscary, so scary, yes, so scary.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
And I and I don know I took all these classes to like
prep for birth and like prepfor like the first two weeks.
And looking back, I keep likethinking to myself like if there
was like a prep class of likehow to be an attuned parent that
was like available at thehospital Not that I had to go
(15:17):
like digging for like on theinternet, but like something
that was widely available, thatI wouldn't have to like again, I
go back to like I just wasn'tthinking about that, like I
wasn't thinking about how I wasgoing to experience postpartum.
I was thinking about takingcare of the baby, because that's
what all of the classes and thebooks that were suggested to me
(15:39):
were about.
Like there was no realinformation suggested to me
about how I was going toexperience postpartum and what I
might go through, and I thinkthat would have been really
helpful to be available prior.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, so.
Is that what this workbook isabout?
This Becoming Mommy yes, so.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Becoming Mommy is basically that, in that it helps
women go through differentexercises.
Well, first realizing theimportance of going through them
is like the intro, but theexercises themselves are really
set up to help women identifywhat their values are, how they
want to show up, figure out whothey want in their village and
(16:26):
to go back to like expressingthe importance of their village.
It doesn't need to be just youto try to help moms get out of
this like isolationist, likemindset that they might find
themselves in.
So, yeah, the workbook, Ibelieve, has like some 20
exercises in it to really helpwomen, like hopefully in a very
(16:46):
like clear path, like get to aplace where they feel like
prepared to go through their ownemotional journey in postpartum
.
So there's like very littleinformation about taking care of
a baby in there, cause that'snot what this workbook was
supposed to be about.
It's about like taking care ofyou, like as the mom.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, that'd be such a great gift for a mom too, like
an expecting mom, cause I feellike it's just not something on
many people's radars, like yousaid, because it's like we're
programmed to think about theother things first, the baby
first.
Obviously, right, you're sohyper focused on that, but how
wonderful, is there any?
(17:26):
So I'm guessing you work withthese women one-on-one quite a
bit now.
Women in postpartum is theretypical things that you see?
I know you said personally youranxiety is really high in
general.
So are there other typicalthings that you think women?
I know you said personally youranxiety is really high in
general.
So are there other typicalthings that you think women
experience?
Cause I've heard of the likehovering, like I, if I take my
(17:46):
eyes off them, something couldhappen.
You know that kind of anxiety.
But I feel like there's othermanifestations in postpartum
that women experience aretypical too.
Can you name some of those?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, so I think postpartum depression has the
highest incidence of peoplebeing like experiencing that,
and a lot of it has to do withlike I'm not a good enough
mother for this baby, or like Iam incapable of taking care of
this baby or someone else wouldbe better off taking care of
(18:16):
them than I am to take care ofthem.
These are kind of like thethings that you might hear
someone in postpartum depressionsaying.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Is it like an imposter syndrome, kind of
exaggerated by hormones?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yes, I definitely think it is like a certain level
of imposter syndrome thathappens.
And then there's this likegrief or a loss that shows up
around, like oh, my life is nolonger the same.
Like I'm different, my life isdifferent.
Like where is the old me?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
like yeah, like in an instant.
There's a constant thing therethat is on your mind, that will
never be off your mind again yes, so there's like this huge
transition that creates thislike grief feeling oh yeah, for
your old you.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, so much sense in your old life and your old
relationship.
Even like now, your partnershipis no longer a partnership, like
, like you're in a familydynamic and like so how do you
shift?
That becomes a big questionthat women tend to wrestle with
and I think that can also, youknow, create feelings of loss or
(19:30):
grief because now they are notjust you know, oh, this is my
partner.
Like, oh, this is the father ofmy child, or this is the you
know wife, this is my partner.
Like, oh, this is the father ofmy child or this is the you
know wife of my child.
Like, it happens both ways.
Even a lot of men experiencepostpartum depression as well.
It just manifests differently.
I'm not an expert in that, butthat does exist for women who
(19:54):
are like why it makes sense,because that role changes too.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
You know what I mean.
Their their role of the kind ofattention they get and the kind
of care they get, also becauseyou don't have that kind of
energy.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yes, so a woman's effort towards the man changes,
but also their own efforttowards themselves changes, just
like it does with the women.
Like now I have to take care ofthis other person.
I can't just like go blow offsteam and play video games or
watch a sports game or go hangout with my buddies Like I now
need to be here, like for thisbaby.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
So I think if both people are experiencing this
huge life transition, whichcould again like the loss and
grief I think is pretty common,and transitions at the same time
are so hard in a relationshipanyway, you know what I mean.
We go through them one at atime.
Yeah, exactly, oh gosh, okay,so I love this.
(20:48):
This is great info.
Um, what do you?
Do you say, say the worst of itis typically the first five
months after, or?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I think it depends.
So it's interesting fact thatmost women who experience
postpartum depression orpostpartum anxiety typically
feel the most suicidal betweenmonths eight and ten interesting
.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Okay, that is very good to know.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I think it really has a lot to do with at least this
is.
I don't want to like bash onresearch institutions, but
there's not a lot of researchinto this.
It's more of just like whatthey've found from experience.
But I think if they did taketime to research this, my
anecdotal opinion is like in thefirst zero to eight months,
(21:37):
like your baby needs you, like alot, and at eight months they
start becoming a little bit moreindependent, like they start
crawling.
Usually they start eating moresolid foods.
So I think what happens?
Again, there's no researchreally diving deep into this.
There should be.
I don't know when that's goingto happen.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Hopefully there will be all the other women related
issues under study.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yes, but I think there's this like kind of like
with when people takeantidepressants, right Like
there's this phase where you'relike in the deep of it and you
can't, you're not even motivatedto do anything, and then when
you get on an antidepressant,usually the depression starts to
lift and you have more energy,and then that can lead to more
(22:22):
suicidal acts.
And so I think the same sort ofmechanism is happening here, of
like why most suicidalideations and acts in postpartum
happen between eight to 10months, because there is a
energy like level that you'regetting at that phase in
postpartum.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You're not just surviving anymore, you get a
little space to think about whatyou're actually, how you feel,
and it can hit hard, I wouldguess, especially if you cause.
When you're in survival mode,you're not processing anything,
you're just doing, yes, whichyou're lacking sleep so much.
So you're definitely insurvival mode.
Oh yeah, well that's powerfulto know.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, so to be like monitoring that for yourself, or
if you know someone that's inpostpartum, if you're a
therapist that works with thisor even any other provider, to
just be more mindful that therisks of hurting themselves or
committing suicide is betweeneight to 10 months.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Okay, so let's get into some of the advice you've
got and the tips and what peopleshould be looking for and how
to support and all of that,because, yeah, I want to know
now.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Well, I think the first thing is like remembering
that typical baby blues isreally only the first two weeks.
Like, if you're experiencinganxiety, depression, after that
point, it is time to seek likeadditional support.
Like I think people think thatit's just normal to feel
depressed or like normal to feelanxious I know that was part of
my story um, like oh, this isjust how it is.
(23:58):
Like yes, that can be quote,unquote how it is, but that
doesn't mean you need to do italone.
Like that means that you shouldseek out support, that you
should go talk to a provider andreach out to those resources,
because if it lasts longer thantwo weeks, it means it's like
clinically significant enough tospeak to someone, because at a
(24:20):
clinical level, like usuallyonly 20 to 30% of women like
experience this past the firsttwo weeks.
So if you're a part of that,like there is support and there
are professionals out there tohelp.
So I just wanted to say thatbecause I think normalizing that
you need to reach out ishelpful.
(24:43):
Another thing that I think isreally helpful to know is having
other women in your corner thatare going through something
similar to you is really helpful.
So finding community, whetherthat's like in a support group,
whether that's in a mom group,that you find like just
connecting with other women whoare in the same phase of life as
(25:05):
you, because I do think it'sreally difficult for someone
who's not in the thick of it toone remember what it was like,
because I've heard plenty ofpeople say like oh, that was
like five years ago, I don'teven remember what it was like,
I just blacked it out.
Like that's not helpful for youwhen you're in it.
I mean, other women who are insimilar spots as you could be
really helpful.
So, again, online supportgroups there's like mommy
(25:30):
support groups kind of things,mommy support groups, therapy
support groups.
There's this organizationcalled mommy's dad that I
connected with.
That is this woman who's reallylike a saint, who connects
women with other women based ontheir due dates and their
geographical location, and soyou can connect with other moms
(25:52):
who are literally going throughit at the time that you're going
through it, without having tolike leave your house.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Oh genius, what's her name?
Her?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
name.
Oh my goodness, I'm horrible atremembering.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
It's okay, we can look at it later.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Her group is called MAMISTAD.
It's M-A-M-I-S-T-A-D, so that'sgreat.
Postpartum SupportInternational also does groups
that are free that you can join,and they have local chapters
that you can be a part of.
So, yeah, I think that's.
Another really big thing that Iwanted to share is like you
(26:26):
don't have to go through thislike alone, and I love that you
said that every episode it comesup and people that listen to
this are like, oh, here it comes.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
But like women healing community, I say all the
time like we need each other tovalidate each other because we
don't validate ourselves, so wehave to share our stories and
hear other people's and I lovethat this is so relevant in like
everything we talk about, likebirth, like especially birth
right, because back in the daywe probably did this surrounded
by a lot more women with a lotmore experience.
(26:55):
It's a very like solo processnow in our culture and I think
that it's normal to be like feelalone and scared and sad Cause
I think really traditionallywomen huddled around each other
in these times and we don't havethat anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, and looking for other providers, I think also
helps.
Like in my experience, evenjust talking to other women,
they're like oh, I didn't evenknow pelvic floor, like PT
existed, like I didn't know thatthere were like sleep
consultants that had like avariety of ideas, not just the
cried out method.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Like providers that speak to what you need, not just
like what they think is best,is really important.
So making sure that there is analignment between you and your
provider is super, superimportant.
Just like I would say with atherapist like not every
therapist is going to fit you.
Like not every PT is going tofit you.
(27:51):
Not every lactation consult isgoing to fit you.
Like, do the hard work.
Unfortunately, it's hard workto like find the right provider.
Yes, settling for one is onlygoing to lead you to feel more
in misalignment with yourselfand your values and your goals,
and you don't have time for thatas a mom to feel in
misalignment with what you need.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
That's the best advice in every aspect of health
.
If a provider is not taking youseriously or somehow blows off
what you say or bounces over you, that is not the one for you in
any way.
You need somebody that hearsyou when you talk and when you
bring up a concern likeaddresses that, and if they
don't there, that's not the oneyou need to be seeing straight
(28:36):
up, yes, with your OB, with yourtherapist, with everybody, with
your cardiologist, like all ofthem.
So I love that you said that,cause that's great advice, and I
don't think we feel a lot ofpeople feel empowered to switch
providers.
We just think they're all thatway and that's not true.
They may be harder to find, butthere are people who care and
listen to you, and maybe it'sjust like a personality thing
(28:59):
too.
Maybe that provider listens toother people.
You just need to find the onethat listens to you.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
So but yeah, and if you're yeah, I was going to say
if your provider like doesn'tlisten to you, like it's okay to
say like hey, you're notactually hearing me, this is
what I said.
Like just because they'reexperts I'm using quotes for
those that people that can'thear or see me experts like
(29:24):
doesn't mean they're an expertin you.
You're an expert in you.
So advocating for what you needin that moment is super helpful
.
My workbook kind of talks aboutthat too, of like different
ways to approach providers whenyou feel unheard by them.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
But someone with you who does feel confident to like.
I don't think that's weird atall If you have some mouthy
nurse in your family, like me,and you want someone to go with
you to feel like help.
You ask questions Sometimes.
I think that, like you know,that's also very appropriate.
Maybe your husband's a littlebetter asking questions than you
, so you bring him along andhave him back you up.
Whatever it is.
(30:01):
I think that's helpful too Ifyou just need a little.
Some of us have helped pushingback, so bring someone with you
who will help you push back, ifthat's what you need, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And having like clear expectations or clear ideas
about what you want I think ishelpful too, rather than just
being like, oh, whatever happenshappens like both in the
delivery room and in thepostpartum care.
Like having an idea of what youwant or having someone there
that can help you like figureout what you want and advocate
(30:32):
for you is really important.
I love doulas for this.
This reason, so I definitelyencourage people to find one.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Do you listen to?
Something was wrong.
That podcast you've ever heard.
No, I don't this episode isabout birth trauma, which don't
listen to it.
If you're like you know, don'tlisten to birth trauma if you're
having a baby.
But if you're post it and youneed and you've had some kind of
birth trauma, it's great tolisten to.
It's very validating.
But one thing they stress inthat a lot is like having
someone with you who's there foryou, like in your birth
(31:03):
experience, because really whenyou go have a baby, it becomes
about the baby A lot of it,which is great.
That's what you want as a mom,right, but you need someone
who's there for you and a lot oftimes a doula.
They've been there a lot andthey are dedicated to you.
They're a great person toexplain what's going on.
That's normal art.
No, that's not really normal.
So that's a great person tohave there for you.
Cause a lot of people you gointo healthcare.
(31:23):
Even though I'm a nurse, I'm inhealthcare all the time.
I would have no idea what we'redoing in OB.
Whenever I've had OB patients,I like grab those nurses and I'm
like help me, I don't knowanything about this.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
So yeah, and there's postpartum doulas which, again,
even in my being pregnant, Ididn't realize that that was a
thing like having someone therefor your care in postpartum?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, and now, like you were saying, you live across
the country from your family Ido too.
I think that's so common too,where, like, it's not
necessarily your mom and yourmother-in-law can just drive
right over.
You know what I mean, and maybethey can, but still, can they
drive over every day?
Can they really be there?
Are you really connected withthem?
There's so much at play there.
You really have to find thesupport that works for you.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Your in-laws or your mother lives in the same town.
I'd also just want to givevoice to people who are retiring
later in life.
Both my mom and mymother-in-law work full time, so
even though they came to visitme and even though they're
available for phone calls andtexts like they couldn't be
available for probably how muchI wanted or needed someone of it
(32:31):
, or how much they probablywanted to do honestly, yeah,
that's true, exactly Right.
So like having someone that'sthat's their job or their role
to be a support to you is reallyhelpful.
So, even if you don't liveacross the country from your
family, like getting thatsupport is, I think, so
important and like under valuedpotentially from like the
(32:56):
perspective of like you don'tknow that you need it until you
need it, sort of thing?
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, for sure, I see that a ton.
So is there any other kind ofadvice for you?
Have women going into this tohelp them prepare?
I know this workbook is greatand honestly I think it's a
great gift for anyone.
You guys know people have ababy, so it's a great gift.
But what other advice would yougive for women?
Or maybe, like I kind of wantto say, like you I know you said
(33:25):
past the first two to fourweeks, but other signs maybe to
identify in themselves thatmaybe you need to reach out and
ask for a little help, Becauseyou know I'm one of those people
I'm usually like so deep in itbefore I realized, like what did
I do?
I buried myself.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Well, I do think it's important to say that if you've
already have a predispositionto have mental health issues
like, you're probably going toexperience that in postpartum.
So just be aware of that andmaybe seek out support
beforehand or have a plan foryour aftercare.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Would you say sorry to interrupt you, but would you
say it exacerbates for people,kind of, the struggles they
already have.
Or would you say, let some.
There's things that are totallydifferent as well.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Or I think it.
Yeah, well, both right.
Like it exacerbates thesituation.
If you've already, if youalready have anxiety, if you
already have depression, you'regoing to be very likely to have
that.
I think it's some.
I can't remember the statbecause I don't have a brain for
that necessarily, but theirnumbers don't stick.
(34:30):
Unfortunately, a lot of peopleeven get diagnosed with bipolar
disorder in postpartum.
So even if you haven'tpreviously been diagnosed with a
mental health condition like,it can show up in postpartum
because you're in the most likehormonally dysregulated, like
moment in postpartum andunfortunately, people experience
(34:53):
psychosis in postpartum thathave never experienced psychosis
before.
So I just want to talk reallybriefly about this because I
think people there's this fearthat if I tell someone that I
have mental health issues, thatthey're going to take my baby
away from me.
So I just wanted to voice thatthat there might be reservations
(35:16):
to seek the support if you'reconcerned about that.
But an educated provider isgoing to know the difference
between I'm anxious that mybaby's going to get hurt or I'm
anxious that my baby is going,that I'm going to hurt my baby,
compared to I want to hurt mybaby right or like I'm going to
do this to my baby.
(35:37):
And even if you do feel likeyou want to do that, like if you
have the wherewithal to saylike I need help, like still get
help, like they will probablyput you in a place to get that
help and you might, they mightput your baby in the care of
your partner or a family memberduring that time.
(35:57):
But it's still better to getthat help than to not, because I
don't.
Again, I don't want to get tothe dark side of this too much,
but, like so many women whoexperienced psychosis that end
up hurting their baby, there'svery little forgiveness in the
courts for that, even thoughyou're experiencing a psychotic
break that you didn't plan foror anticipate or want.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, and do you think that I mean I would?
I can only like guess to bewhat it would be like to be in
that place, but I would guessthat there's a lot of fear going
on about reaching out, a lot offear that's keeping, that's
exacerbating it, but also likethat's a really scary place to
be to reach out to somebody andsay like I mean, I had scary
(36:41):
thoughts during burnout andtelling someone that was like oh
my god, the hurdle.
That is the shame, the shamethat comes with sharing that
kind of stuff sometimes, eventhough it's totally normal.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I think it's so normal.
I haven't done any likeresearch or read any research on
this, but I think the amount ofwomen that think to themselves
like, especially late at night,when you're up and you've slept
like maybe five hours of brokensleep, thinking to yourself like
I can't do this or like someoneelse would be better off doing
(37:14):
this Almost every woman thatI've spoken to like has that
thought Like that is just socommon of an experience.
So like just know that you'renot alone.
Like, if you have thosefeelings in the middle of the
night, like it is brutal to havea physical trauma of giving
birth, whether you deliveredvaginally or through a C-section
(37:35):
, that's a physical trauma ofgiving birth, whether you
delivered vaginally or through aC-section, that's a physical
trauma.
And then you immediately gointo a perimenopausal state when
you're breastfeeding.
So you have like way lessestrogen, way less progesterone
in your body that normally helpregulate your mood.
Oh my God, the rage.
The rage, yes, also supercommon.
(37:57):
So you go into a perimetopausalstate during the time that
you're breastfeeding, the entiretime, and then you also
experience sleep deprivation.
So now you've had a physicaltrauma, sleep deprivation, and
you're in a perimetopausal stateif you're breastfeeding,
(38:18):
feeding, so the likelihood thatyou're going to feel completely
besides yourself, even if youdon't have a preexisting mental
health condition, is like Idon't know, most people have a
mental health condition becausewe live in this society and it
has a lot of pressure and a lotof us are medicating for, for
this, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
So let's be honest, most people do that.
So much pressure, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
And so I just want to put the yeah and out there that
like there's all of thesecontributing factors.
People are like, oh, I thoughtI was going to be happy having a
baby.
I so I wanted to have a babyfor so long, but this is like
what my dreams were.
And then they have thisexperience where, like holy cow,
like my whole world feelsturned upside down.
(39:00):
Why?
Speaker 1 (39:00):
And I'm like, hey, it's normal, it's normal, it's
normal.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Let's look at everything that has just
happened.
Yeah, you've been sleepdeprived, you are again in a
perimenopausal state and yourbody just experienced a physical
trauma.
Yeah, like, have some gracehave some patience, and that's
best case scenario.
(39:25):
That's best case scenario.
Do you know what I mean?
Yes, that's withoutexperiencing a birth trauma or
having your child born with likea chronic health condition or
anything else in your life goingon stressful too.
You know what?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
I mean, like anything else.
Oh my gosh, I love that you'redoing this.
Okay, so you work with peopleone-on-one in a counseling
practice.
You also have this workbook,and then I'm is this what you
talk about in your podcast too?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
So my podcast does talk about this stuff, but
there's also other people thatcome on and we've talked about
just the transition that womengo through during different
phases of life.
That's what kind of redefiningus is about is like through each
transition, whether it's a newjob or having a baby or a new
marriage or going throughmidlife or experiencing
(40:13):
perimenopause, going throughmidlife or experiencing
perimenopause like women and men.
But the podcast is about womenare going through transitions,
like all of the time, and ineach of these transitions we
have to redefine, like what ourvalues are, who we are, how
we're going to show up forourselves, for our community,
for people in our lives, and sothat's that's what redefining us
is about.
(40:33):
So we do have a lot of people on, just because it's a topic that
I'm interested in right now islike postpartum, but my goal is
to have people who are likeexperts in perimenopause or
experts in going through adivorce and how women continue
to redefine who they are throughthose like life transitions.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
I love that.
I love that.
I find like so that they say,like the age, that of your
midlife crisis is like yourforties, and that's also like a
lot of my clients are in theirlike late thirties to fifties I
would say women.
But it's also the time whereour values shift, like our
hormones are shifting and we'reshifting from like this, like
(41:17):
trying to be, like presentourselves to the world and an
achievement, to like we startvaluing our peace and that a
little more.
And so I think I love that thatyou're focusing on transitions,
because it's so powerful andthat's like a lot of times how I
, why I ended up seeing people,cause we're in this like
powerful transition of lifewhich also involves a lot of
hormone shifts.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
So yes, yeah, I was actually listening to a podcast
by the woman that wrote thepause Mary Claire.
Again, I'm like horrible atnames.
I should really I can relate.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I love this book.
What was her name?
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Okay, I was right, it's Dr Mary Claire, that's her
handle on Instagram, but shewrote this book and she, in the
podcast that I was listening toher share about, she was saying
that a lot of women end upgetting divorced in their
fifties because their values andtheir hormones shift so much in
the perimenopause menopausetransition that they end up like
(42:17):
wanting different things fortheir life than they did when
they were maybe in their 20s and30s when they got married, and
that their partner just has notgone through the same hormonal
shift that they did, which Ithought was really interesting.
Obviously, you can still getthrough your 50s and stay
married if that's what you wantto do.
I don't think every marriageends in, you know, divorce
(42:38):
because of perimenopause ormenopause.
But I do think like yeah, womenare going through transitions
all the time and like honoringthat for yourself is really
important.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Oh yeah, my husband and I.
It's funny because I've beenperimenopausal Anyone who
listens to the show knows likehardcore I just I'm ending this
job, I'm transitioning to newone, but I've been doing like 18
hour days for the past year, soit makes that so much worse,
like so much worse.
That's the reason why I'm likeI'm out of this, I can't handle
it anymore, I'm gonna killsomebody.
But my husband is so funnyCause there's days I it's not
funny in the moment at all, it'sfunny but I wake up and like
(43:10):
I'm a nurse I've been acaregiver my entire life Like I
care.
My husband's like I, you know,probably gets a little more
caregiving than some other women, cause that's just who I am.
But there are days when I wakeup and I don't want to care for
anything not a single otherperson and then there's a part
of and I realized it's hormones.
So it's like, okay, this isgoing to shift in a few days.
(43:32):
But I can't understand theperson I've been most of my life
Like why would I do?
Why do I do all this?
It's so exhausting to thinkabout, it gets me a little down
and I'll get pissed at him overthings I normally don't and he's
like, oh my God, I'm like it'snot like these things aren't
valid.
Okay, they're very valid.
It's just normally I have likea higher threshold for it.
(43:53):
You know, I'm not acting crazy.
I just feel very differentlyabout them right now.
It's like poor you, I'm sosorry, but it's true.
It's like it's so crazy howhormones play such an effect on
that nurturing feeling, becauseto me it's just such a shock
that it can actually be gonesometimes too.
(44:13):
And I'm like oh well, that's anempowering feeling to not feel
like you need to take care ofpeople.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Well, historically, women go, after going through
menopause, like no longer werethe caregivers of the community,
but they were seen as like wisemembers of the community, and
so people would go to them fortheir knowledge and like their
expertise, not necessarily fortheir like caregiving
capabilities that was usuallyreserved for like younger women
(44:40):
in the community.
So I just wanted to validate,like, of course, like your brain
, why am I still caregiving?
That's not what, like biologysays that my body and my brain
should be using its resources.
For now, like now is my time tolike bestow my knowledge and
wisdom on others and be more ina teacher like protector role
(45:01):
and not a caregiving role.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
So oh my gosh, I love that you said that I've I just
recently got like a leadershipjob in healthcare Cause I'm like
, well, I'm going to try to makea difference in this way,
because that's how I feel.
I feel like I'm ready to likebe, you know, not the one doing
the caregiving, but the onemaking the change so it gets
better, which is like, so that'sall fit so well.
So thanks for that.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
yeah, of course yeah, I think it's really important
to look at like, where we'vebeen compared to where we are
now, because, like, clearlythere's wisdom, and like how
communities and tribes existedfor years before the internet,
like how do you think theysurvived?
Speaker 1 (45:36):
yeah, I used to read, get so into.
I can't remember who wrote themishmael, do you ever read that
book back in the day?
No, it's about how a lot of howwe evolve from tribal things
are like hung over in ourculture.
Maybe some of the holdups wehave it's.
It's really interesting.
I love that perspective, butanyway, okay.
So let's say, if women are likestruggling with this, they're
(45:58):
hearing you or say like, um,some of those things, and
they're like, oh my God, that'smy daughter-in-law.
What do you suggest that theydo?
Where, where do they start?
How can they support people?
Speaker 2 (46:09):
or how can they support?
Yeah, I think it's important tocome from a place of like,
empathy and understanding, andnot a place of like you need
this, or like an accusement,accusing judgment.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Watch out for the rage.
Yeah, yeah, because, watch outfor the rage.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
I do think it starts with like you know what?
Like I really want to supportyou.
How can I support you?
Have them share with you whatthey think, first, and then,
like, provide suggestions orresources.
Like hey, I heard this podcast.
Or hey, there's this postpartumsupport international.
Or hey, there's these resources.
Because I think, just coming atit with, like you should do
(46:49):
this, like in general, not justin postpartum, but people aren't
going to listen to that.
So, asking what they think theyneed first and then providing
resources and support, I thinkis a great way to try to
approach helping someone in thisplace and for women who are in
it and struggling, just likewhat would you say to them?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
just reach out, ask for help.
What?
Speaker 2 (47:12):
yeah, no, you're not alone.
First of all, because I thinkthat's super helpful and you're
not crazy.
You're not alone.
First of all, because I thinkthat's super helpful and you're
not crazy, you're not broken andlike you can be a good mom and
you can do the work, like thefact that you even care about
being a good mom like alreadymakes you a good mom.
Yeah, you're there, you'realready there.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
You're wearing yourself sick, you're there.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
So remember that.
And yeah, like you can Google,you can reach out to me.
I can hopefully help provideresources for you in your local
area.
Postpartum supportinternational I can't speak
their praises enough.
That's an excellentorganization based out of Oregon
.
Yeah, where?
Speaker 1 (47:54):
can they find your workbook?
Where can they find your?
Where do you live?
Do you coach um as your therapy?
Just like a restrictive rightnow only do therapy.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
I do have a redefining us community that I'm
trying to get off the ground,that moving together like more
women who are interested intalking about these types of
things.
So that is for anyone in theUnited States, not just those
that are in Colorado, becausethat's where I have my therapy
practice and that's where I'mlicensed, in Colorado and in
(48:26):
Florida.
So you can't work with meone-on-one if you live in either
of those States.
But as far as just connectingin a community sense, I have my
Redefining Us community that youcan find on my website,
wellmindedcounselingcom.
I have my podcast, redefiningUs, that's located on all major
platforms.
Again, you can also find thatinformation on my website and my
(48:48):
Instagram, and I have a YouTubechannel, redefining Us, that
shows all of the podcasts.
My workbook is available on allmajor online retailers so you
can find it anywhere from, like,bookshoporg to amazon, to
barnes and noble to target, like.
If you just get it, you can orsearch it online, you can have
(49:09):
it shipped to your house I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
That's perfect.
Well, it's been so fun talkingto you.
I feel like I could ask youlike a million questions, but it
would be a little off base, somaybe we'll have you back
another time to talk about someother aspects of all of this,
but I loved it.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Is, oh, I want to ask you, Iask everyone this so um, what is
your go-to so like?
Speaker 2 (49:42):
say you're like super stressed out, overwhelmed, shut
down.
What is your go-to self-carewhen things are like getting out
of control that helps you likebring it in?
Yeah, I am someone who reallyis fueled up by alone time.
So if I can take time, even ifit's like 15 to 20 minutes, to
sit and do an activity, itdepends, right, like I think
sometimes I needed to sit downand do an activity.
Sometimes I need to go for awalk.
So those are probably the twothings that I do, depending on
my mood.
If I'm like really overwhelmedand I need a quiet place, I just
(50:05):
like to sit down and color likethat might something a toddler
might do.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
But like I do that too, I have a adult coloring
book.
Yeah, it helps me focus mythoughts sometimes because
there's so much racing.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yes, it's like so, and you can't be anxious when
you're being creative, becauseit actually is using the same
part of your brain, so you can'tbe anxious while you create.
So, if you're anxious, try tosit down and create something,
because you just can't do bothat the same time and create
something, because you justcan't do both at the same time.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
I love that.
I love that.
That's great advice.
Okay, well, I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Is there anything you want to leave us with?
Yeah, I just want more peopleto care about their own
experience in postpartum and fornot just the moms to care about
it but the society, because,like, we're doing something so
significant like raising thenext generation of humans and
like if we don't care about that, like what?
(51:06):
How could we possibly careabout anything else?
Is my opinion.
But yeah, like you have to takecare of the moms because
they're the backbone of society,so taking care of you is really
important.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
I love that You're highlighting such a great issue
too is like there's a lot ofvery understudied things about
women's health and women'shormone shifts throughout life
during pregnancy, afterpregnancy, normal shifts that
come throughout just life.
It's very understudied and um,and we deserve it.
We deserve to know a littlemore.
(51:36):
So I love that one of thepeople are like pushing this and
providing support.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yes, of course, and thank you so much to all of your
listeners.
I really appreciate you givingme the platform to speak to them
.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Well thanks.
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