July 17, 2025 • 59 mins
Sarah brings 35 years of clinical expertise to our conversation, revealing how relationship therapy has transformed from a one-dimensional approach to a comprehensive science-based system. As founder of Relate Center in Austin, Texas, she's pioneered an integrated method combining physical therapists, psychotherapists, and physicians to address both emotional and physical dimensions of relationships.
The digital transformation of mental healthcare takes center stage as Sarah candidly discusses how telehealth has revolutionized therapy accessibility while introducing new challenges. She shares thoughtful strategies for maintaining therapeutic connection in virtual settings—a balancing act between convenience and depth that practitioners continue to navigate in our post-pandemic world. Her insights illuminate the profound ways technology has democratized access to mental health support while sometimes sacrificing the intimacy of in-person connection.
What truly distinguishes this conversation is Sarah's perspective on psychology's radical evolution. She articulates how the field has shifted from viewing problems as purely psychological to understanding the critical role of trauma, physiology, and somatic experiences. Modern therapeutic approaches increasingly focus on nervous system regulation—helping clients shift from fight-or-flight responses to states where healing becomes possible. This represents a fundamental reimagining of what effective therapy looks like.
Sarah doesn't shy away from addressing the ethical challenges facing mental health practitioners today, from navigating complicated regulatory environments to fighting for qu
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to another episode here of our
podcast.
Sitting in front of me is noneother than Sarah from Relate
Center.
Sarah is an amazing, amazing,amazing therapist.
She has been in this space forquite a while 35 years of
experience working withindividuals couples
(00:23):
professionals 35 years ofexperience working with
individuals couplesprofessionals.
Sarah really takes ascience-based approach, deeply
personal approach to creatinglasting relationships that not
only work in your personal lifebut also in your professional
career.
Not only has Sarah's impactgone beyond the therapy room she
delivers workshops on teamwork,leadership, communication and
businesses all across thecountry.
(00:44):
Sarah, welcome to our podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Well, thank you for having me, Blake.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, yeah, hopefully that does you some justice
there.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's a lovely, lovely intro.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I had more, I could have kept going, but I wanted
you to get in.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Well, let's get into the meat of it.
That's good for me.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Yeah, so tell everybody.
I've told everybody what you do, but let's put your frame on it
.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Sure Well, you did a beautiful job, thank you.
I am a clinical social workerby training and have a specialty
in sex and relationshipcounseling, and we some of my
colleagues and I had built abusiness called Relate Center in
Austin, texas, where we'rereally putting together all the
new kind of data on what helpspeople have the best physical
(01:35):
and emotional intimaterelationship.
So that means physicaltherapists, pilates
psychotherapistsists, physicianswe really work to give people a
well-rounded sense ofprofessional help where?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
where did the need come for you guys to start
relate center?
And like, where was thatburning passion?
Like, hey, we have to do thiswell, you know there were.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
It was really hard to find people who had really
specific skills to help in thisarea and we kept finding that
people got dropped.
Like you would have a clientyou want to send her to a
physical therapist, but thenthat never happened, or we
didn't have any way really tocome back and make sure that the
(02:20):
person was getting anindividual kind of an experience
.
And we really wanted to makesure that we were all talking
and that we really had that kindof this bigger view for the
individual or the couple.
And so it just.
We just started working with acouple of people who had the
same philosophy and just said,hey, let's do this.
(02:40):
And we've now been in businessabout 16 years.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Wow, it sounds like you kind of got through a lot of
the ups and downs.
You know, obviously, working inhealthcare, there's a lot of
fun stuff that you guys have togo through when you're dealing
with patient records.
I mean, health data is verysensitive data.
Talk about how you kind of gotthrough some of those data
(03:09):
challenges that businesses do.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, you know, I think that's such a good
question because what we decidedto do to protect people's
privacy was be out of networkproviders.
So in network I would have toprove that somebody was crazy
enough, sick enough to still gethelp, and I was often dealing
with administrators about tryingto prove someone needed my care
(03:35):
.
So we decided as anout-of-network provider, even
though it was more costly, itprovided people more protection.
We felt like people who weremore famous, well-known, were
hesitant to come in because theydidn't want those records to be
in anyone else's file.
(03:55):
So we thought about it fromthat point of view as well as
just generally wanting to helpstreamline the services.
Many times if you're justlooking for a network, you are
more limited on who actually hadthe specialty you were looking
for.
So that helped us.
We all keep our own records, weall work with our own kind of
(04:18):
system.
So we're individual, we're anindividual practice, we're a
group of individually mindedpractice people with the same
philosophy.
But that's how we ended up withit and it clearly has, you know
, limits, because we really want, you wish, for people to be
able to have access to insuranceand to help that they should
(04:41):
have.
But we're just trying to dealwith the real world here.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, since you started Relate Center to now,
how have you seen the businessevolve?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, you know we went through COVID.
So I think the most importantthing is we all learned how to
do online counseling.
So how do we try to reachpeople?
And you know that was a bigadvantage for many, many people,
not even after COVID because ofI don't know what traffic is
like in Las Vegas, but in Austinit's crazy and you know it
(05:16):
would take people an hour to getto an office and an hour to get
home.
Hour to get home.
So it's really opened uppeople's ability to get help and
in that way it's it's all.
It's more cost effective forpeople and for us.
It's convenient and I can be inNew Jersey and I'm still working
with people, because I can workwith people from different,
(05:39):
because I also have a coachingcertificate.
So I'm I have an internationalcoaching certificate as well as
a license, and that helps meimmediately have protection.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, with your background in psychology and
clinical social work, how didyou kind of transition into
coaching and the thoughtleadership training?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Well, I've always had an interest in giving practical
help and working withentrepreneurs.
That's kind of my area of mostenjoyment, really.
People who are kind of sparedto try and do some of their own
kinds of things men and women,not necessarily businesses, but
that kind of personality,businesses but that kind of
(06:27):
personality.
So as I decided to move to abeautiful place, another
beautiful place, I needed tofind ways that I could see more
clients that weren't just in mystate, and so that has given me
the flexibility to do that.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
That is epic.
I'm curious as to your approachto healthcare.
Obviously, therapy is one ofthose things that's a very
catered, scientific,psychological intervention, if
we can use that term.
How is the approach that RelateCenter takes to psychotherapy
(07:05):
different than you know somebodywho you would stereotypically
sit down on a couch with andchalk it up?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
You know, I think that's such a good question
because there are lots ofdifferent modalities and many
modalities have fit for manydifferent kinds of people.
So we really I think who weattract are people who want a
lot of science-based studies anddata.
So a lot of our practicesaround sexual health, so many of
(07:34):
our clients come fromphysicians who need to have
someone looking at a differentkind of filling in what they
can't do medically.
So that's part of who I thinkwe're attracting is people who
are referrals.
I think our approach is alsopractical.
(07:58):
So we want people to like whyare they here?
What are your goals?
Are we meeting your goals?
We do long-term therapy some ofus as well, but all really with
.
Are we helping someone get fromA to Z so that they can really
see progress and feel itphysiologically as well?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
When obviously a lot of people use kind of COVID as a
transition period.
We've heard it so many timesthe way that businesses operate
immediately had to shift duringCOVID, especially now with the
prevalence of telehealth, likefor Relate Center, getting
(08:43):
people comfortable kind of doingthe telehealth.
Or were you guys already kindof ready to go when?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
that happened.
Well, you know that'sinteresting that you're asking
me about that, because I hadtaken a part-time position while
I was out of town working withan online company, so I was
already starting to look at thatto learn how to use the
(09:10):
computer, to learn, kind of, howto use different avenues.
So when COVID happened, Ireally already had a little
preview and a jumpstart to it.
That helped me a lot and Ithink we also just trying to
figure out how do we getservices to people.
There was an organization, anational organization, that
(09:32):
offered free therapy to peoplein health care reach the people
in need.
And you know when, when you'retalking to people in, you know
in the hospitals or watchingpeople die all the time, you
(09:52):
want to be able to get themaccess right away to get some
help with that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
Um, and I'm assuming now thatyou've been so successful at
Relate Center and the way thatyou see patients, has your
approach to the way that youserve customers through
telehealth changed?
Have you shifted the businessto accommodate?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yes, absolutely, especially because now that I
have to do virtual work most ofthe time, unless I'm doing
workshops and I think it'sworked really really well it's
nice that we still have peoplewho can do in-person.
I think it's a greatcombination of some people who
want to be able to keep doingonline, as well as the people
(10:40):
who really want to come and seesomeone in person.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, as well as the people who really want to come
and see someone in person.
Yeah, I'm curious as to youknow, obviously when you start a
healthcare service company Imean especially when you're
handling, you know, patientrecords you know obviously HIPAA
comes to mind.
You have to deal a lot withHIPAA the way that you handle
data, the way that you transmitdata.
(11:04):
What was your thought processto approaching HIPAA, to
approaching patient data, how isstored, how is transmitted, and
how did you bring some of thosebuilt-in compliance and
security mandates into yourpractice?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
That is a complicated answer and so I'm going to tell
you my process.
So I did sign up.
I do an online schedulingcredit card note taking service.
I limit what I actually putdown in terms of my notes.
(11:45):
I keep my file drawer withnotes.
I try not to actually writedown anything that I think could
get my client in troublebecause I don't really try.
I've had a bad experience withthe courts, you know, getting my
notes and not being as carefulas I should have been earlier in
(12:07):
my career when I didn'tunderstand kind of the
consequences, but certainly it'sbeen very.
You know, I don't know how youall or what you're finding out
about this, but it's really hardto find programs that are
geared for small businesses.
So many of these programs arereally built for these big, big
(12:29):
companies with lots oftherapists and do insurance that
are really kind of geared thatway and can be very expensive.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
So you know, we're always kind of struggling about
what's the best program that cangive me what I need, protects
my clients, protects their themfinancially, but also is has
some kind of flexibility of howI work yeah, that makes a lot of
sense, um, and it's an, it's aninteresting perspective and
(13:01):
thank you for being so candidand so honest and, um, and I'm
sure, obviously, in your entireamazing career, you've learned a
lot and you've changed a lotand you've grown a lot.
So, the way that you dobusiness and the way that you
handle, uh, information, um, notonly that too, but it's just
changed a lot over the years.
Like, if you look at HIPAA,like HIPAA, um, you know, it was
(13:23):
written in 1996, which was, youknow, most people weren't doing
telehealth and things like thatback then.
And then, you know, they had anew privacy rule that was
finalized in 2000.
And then in 2003, you know, ofcourse, they came out with some
more rules around, like EPHI andadministrative and physical
(13:44):
safeguards, and I mean 2006,2009.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I've had a lawyer tell me that if anyone wanted to
look at anyone's books reallyclosely, we'd all be in trouble.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Oh, totally, totally.
Yeah, I mean, it's weird.
A lot of the people that wetalk to, they essentially try to
avoid handling patient recordas much as possible so they can
skirt around HIPAA, or they usesystems that are essentially
(14:22):
offload A lot of it, like Epic.
Like Epic is, you know, kind ofthe industry leader, um, in in
our opinion, and in patientrecord management, um, you know
obviously now, um, in 2020, well, in 2025, I guess now we were
expecting, you know, somechanges to HIPAA.
(14:43):
You know around likemulti-factor authentication it
had to be mandatory.
You know data encryption.
You know not only patienthealth information at rest, but
in transit.
And now, in 2025, patients andproviders are going to have to
(15:06):
go through an annual riskanalysis which is fun I was like
kidding like a colonoscopyevery year, wow.
And not only that, too, but youknow coming up with incident
response, disaster recoveryplans, oh yeah yeah.
(15:28):
Internal audits.
You know compliance audits, andnot only that too, but with the
2025 proposed rule changes,they're going to be a little bit
stricter on vendor managementand how you know sensitive data
gets out and how you respond tothat Um, and they're going to
(15:50):
talk a little bit in some ofthese new proposed rules about
um, uh, like, uh, employeeturnover.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
You know so, like if somebody leaves your practice,
like how you suspend theiraccess to you know phi, which is
fun so a lot of fun, a lot offun stuff to prepare for right,
which is why I'm going to acoaching kind of model sure you
know I, what's happening is it'sforcing out a lot of good
(16:22):
practitioners because, it'sbecome more and more
administrative versus actuallygiving treatment.
And you know, I think that's.
You know you can kind ofunderstand where it comes from,
but it's just overwhelming formost of us, especially unless
(16:45):
you know, unless you have your.
Maybe what it's going to do ismake all therapists have to join
these big practices so that theadministrators handle
everything and they don't haveto do it.
But you know, when I joinedthis one online company, my, my
salary was a third of what Iusually make.
(17:06):
So you know, I think that's.
The other thing is they'remaking it very hard for people
to actually provide treatment inmy field.
It's very discouraging for me.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I agree they're making it complicated to be in
healthcare.
If we had more of a starter kit, like if we gave and I hope the
government listens to thingslike these.
but if we had a starter kit.
Like a starter kit, like hey,look, here here's a starter kit
(17:48):
that you can use to get intohealthcare, especially as a mom
and pop practice.
You know, with you know ahandful of providers, um, where
it's not not expensive, a lot ofthe heavy lifting is done for
you.
Um, you know, out of the box,you're ready to kind of just
start seeing patients andtreating and treating patients
(18:09):
and providing, you know, extracare, like you know amazing care
, like I wish we got there.
Yeah, because you know ourhealth care system is is a wonky
one is a wonky one.
I've seen it from the other side.
I've lived in Europe and I'vespent quite a lot of time in the
(18:31):
markets out there and inlearning how they treat patients
.
And yeah, it's a very weirdprocess here, especially
considering everything operateson a referral network.
So your primary care refers youto X Y Z, who then refers you
to X Y Z, and then it's justthis snowball of referrals which
(18:55):
doesn't really exist in otherhealthcare markets that I've
been a part of.
Um, I'm curious to yourapproach.
So from what I read about you,I mean you're a very
accomplished individual.
First of all, let me say youalso work with corporate teams.
Is that accurate?
(19:16):
Yes, wow, okay, so I'm curiousto how.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Professional teams, so I would say, not big
corporations.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Maybe I'm interrupting too soon.
I've worked a lot with the lawschool in Austin, helping train
young lawyers and helping themlearn how they are on a team,
and some entrepreneurs, somesmall businesses that are more
(19:51):
that not some family businesses,but also just smaller kinds of
groups who are looking at how todo better leadership.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Would you say that, how you cater your curriculum or
your therapy services, how didyou refine those?
You know, obviously it soundslike you came from seeing people
one-on-one in a patient setting, kind of graduating into
working with multiple people,kind of trying to to jump.
(20:23):
People learn differently.
People you know processinformation differently.
So how did you approach seeingsomebody one-on-one to?
Then you know coaching teamsand developing team.
You know team building.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So you know, a lot of this just like happens by
chance, where I think I had aclient who worked at a law firm
who said, hey, would you comeand give a talk to the young
women lawyers?
And we're like, sure, why not?
You know, I think a lot ofopportunities is that as well.
(21:00):
I think I could do that, let'stry.
In fact, I think that thattends to be one of the things
that women have a harder timedoing, of just being able to try
something, even if you're notsure you have all the skills.
(21:23):
Started working and taking upsome of those opportunities and
saying, hey, what about doingsome some workshop?
Hey, what about me learningwhat are some different ways to
teach people about themselves?
So, for example, some peoplelove working with some kind of
profiles, so we use differentkind of behavioral profiles that
(21:46):
help someone see themselvesbetter.
Then we would do, we do horseworkshops where people learn
leadership skills from thehorses who can't, you know,
can't tell you what to do, butthey react and you kind of learn
from their reaction of you'reconnected or you're a leader or
not.
And I think that as I grew, youknow, I wanted to share it with
(22:09):
different kinds of people, andthen that grew from there.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
How do you feel like psychology has evolved, I mean
since you got in the industry,you know, a while ago.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, wow.
Well, that's yeah, because Isat around in my college in one
of those early self-awarenessgroups in 1975.
So, wow, that's crazy.
It's changed quite a bit sincethen.
You know, for one thing, wehave so much more data now of
(22:44):
what actually helps.
We have more of a sense of wehave to deal with people.
Listen, when I first went tosex therapy school, they
believed that almost all sexualproblems were in your head.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And we've learned that that's just not true.
Have learned that that's justnot true.
There are so many things thatare about how you are, what
happens through trauma and howyou are in your body, as well as
different kind of biologicalmedical issues.
We just know so much more, somuch more of what I do really in
(23:20):
my practices.
Tell people what we know about.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Let me tell you what we now know or what we don't
know about.
X.
Sure, I was thinking you wouldI mean, based off our, our
limited interactions that I wasthinking you'd say something
also along the lines of um, the,the people's willingness to
participate, and it's, you know,like, like therapy.
You know it used to be kind oftaboo, you know nobody would
(23:49):
talk about it, that you're intherapy and it was kind of like
one of those little secrets.
You know that like it's a reallygood point, you know you keep
under, uh, under like tight lockand key, but now people are, oh
, yeah, just, how do you know?
Just I'm, that's true, I'mgoing to therapy at at 1, like
you know, like people are moreopen, um, and with the rise of,
(24:10):
you know, digital, the digitalinfrastructure that we live in,
people have kind of embracedthis and and, and you know the
lack of um, uh, I mean, accessto physicians and patient.
I mean, I mean now, I mean Ican connect with you who's in
New Jersey, I'm in Vegas and youknow, I, you know not not have
(24:31):
access to your skill set here,because the health care system
in Vegas is absolutely terrible.
Besides, the point for therapyhas changed and how people
interpret it.
And, and, yeah, I mean no shamehere, I've, I've been in
(24:53):
therapy for multiple years,right, you know, because I've,
I've, I've watched.
I watched this one.
I don't know what it was.
It was like info doc orsomething, and they talked about
how the brain and you probablywill love this but how the brain
has evolved to modern stressand modern scheduling.
(25:14):
Like our brain is not designedto process the amount of
information that we put throughit every single day.
So burnout, right, I mean somany of the workforce industry
is burned.
I mean, at least in my field, Ican tell you for sure.
Probably in others, but yourbrain was not designed to take
(25:36):
and use it the way that we useit in this modern world.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
True, right, yeah, well, you know.
That's such a good point thatwe know now that part of the
reason that we started ourpodcast and we're also now
writing a book is to be able toget information out to people
that they may not have.
So many people need justinformation so that they can
(26:01):
live their life more effectivelyso that they can live their
life more effectively?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, what areas do you feel like of psychology are
evolving the fastest right now,or maybe even the ones that are
maybe the most misunderstood?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
you know whether it's clinical or yeah, I think the
whole issue around body, aroundsomatic training, trauma of you
know, ptsd, stress I think somuch more is being studied about
that, about how to help people.
I've had multiple trainings indealing with trauma and how to
(26:41):
integrate people, kind of amind-body approach, positive
intelligence, emotionalintelligence, how you really
kind of put together thedifferent things Because one we
either had the idea that insightwas enough.
Once I understand what happenedto me, I will be completely
(27:02):
healthy, happened to me, I willbe completely healthy.
That didn't seem to work RightRight.
Or if I just know all of myemotions, that'll work.
If it's really about how do youintegrate, how do you
understand your history and yourweight survival mechanism, how
do you live in your body in away that helps it calm down so
it can respond to all thisstress?
(27:23):
And how do you shift?
You know how do you shift tothink more productively or act
more productively.
So that's to me, the magic thatis making these things more
doable more access, right.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Do you feel like there's newer promising
approaches or maybe modalitiesthat are more promising that
you've started to realize in thefield you know?
I think the idea is we do needto be open to what are the new
things.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I just recently took a course in positive
intelligence which really waskind of taking all these
complicated ideas and makingthem more accessible on your app
.
You know it's how do you getpeople to start using the tools?
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, something that I've noticed too, or maybe you
could probably talk on, is thetype of persona that you know
generally we'll see a therapistis usually a higher um people.
A lot, a lot of underprivilegeduh communities don't have
(28:51):
access to physical uh um or, I'msorry, psychological uh therapy
.
Um, how, how do you feel likewe can introduce psychotherapy
to these types of communitiesand how do you think we can kind
of get through that?
You know, this is life-changing.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Well, you know, I think that that's so important
and such a big problem and youknow, I think we're losing the
middle class more and more, notgaining it, so there are more
and more people who don't haveaccess to any health care or
mental health care.
That's part of why I've alwaysliked coming from social work,
(29:33):
because I think it's trying toreach all people versus limited
but um, I don't know how we'regoing to do that yeah you know I
don't know how people you knowwhat I've always tried to do is
offer some low-fee servicesalong in my practice.
(29:55):
I try to do so.
I used to.
I'm clearly not doing them nowthat I'm not in Austin.
But some free talks wherepeople can come in, but some
free talks where people can comeum.
I think I've worked in doctor'soffices where I would be a part
of the team, so we were doingthat early on and I think that
you know help people be able toget some access because, again,
(30:17):
it's information a lot of peoplejust don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
And men are afraid to ask.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Totally.
It's almost like embarrassingfor people to ask for help these
days, which is a shame.
Yeah, I'm curious.
It's something that I'vethought a lot about, and maybe
there's no answer, maybe youhave the perfect answer, but it
(30:49):
seems like people and I can onlyspeak from my personal
experience.
I got into therapy when I waslike the glass was overflowing
of life and I'm like I need tosee somebody, I need to talk to
somebody, I need to see some, Ineed to talk to somebody.
Do you think there are kind oflike do you think there is a
(31:09):
preventative approach to therapy, to psychotherapy, instead of
just saying, oh shit, I'm hereand now I need to talk to
somebody?
Like, like, how do you getahead of needing therapy?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Well, you know, yes, absolutely yes.
And I have had some familieswhere they have their kids come
in, not because they're havingproblems but because, hey,
they're a teenager, let's getyou in so that you know, you
start getting someself-awareness.
And you know, I think more andmore people are aware that they
(31:46):
need to help their kids haveskills, especially now you think
of what kids are going through.
Young people have so muchpressure on them and there's so
many limitations that are put onthem now in this world with
what's happening.
So, you know, I think that thattakes us, it takes our
(32:07):
generations, to help these new,these new generations come in.
That would give them tools sothey can say, hey, are you
reaching close to that point?
Then it's time to go back inand talk to somebody.
Sure, I'm working right nowwith a kid who's doing a junior
(32:27):
year abroad and, um, her parentsare like we're still gonna have
you talk to her.
So, even though she's in southamerica, she's we're doing
therapy.
Yeah, just because they knewthey were gonna, she was going
to be in some new experiencesthat she wasn't sure how to deal
with.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I mean, yeah, that is amazing that parents are that
supportive of her mental health.
I'm curious and this is goingto be a huge pivot.
But you know we've talked.
We've talked a lot abouttransitioning Relate Center, you
know, from seeing patients inperson to, you know, covid, to
(33:09):
the online boom, to telehealth.
We've touched on a lot of that,something that I can speak from
, to my personal experience, andthat's a lot of the stuff that
I try to bring into the podcast.
You know, because I'm a patient, we're all patients.
You know, because I'm a patient, we're all patients.
But with the rise of telehealth, you've also seen the decline
(33:29):
in the quality of care.
So how does Relate Centeraddress that?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Well, I'm not sure how each one of us would say
that, how each one of us wouldsay that I miss not being able
to have some personal contact.
You know, I think what's bestis you mix the two so you have
(33:59):
some real contact with somebodyand then you can work virtually.
I don't have that opportunityright now.
Part of what I'm doing to tryto stay more connected is I use
my text and email more so that Itry to let people know if
they're having a hard time.
You know, we can check in witheach other, we can do a short
(34:20):
call.
There are lots of ways to try tokind of get past that.
I just have an hour once a weekor every other week, because
that's the other thing.
That's happened a lot becausethe costs have keep going up.
A lot of people are now comingin every other week and that's
much harder to keep the threadof how are you doing?
(34:40):
Are you making progress?
Where are you getting stuck?
So you know, I think you haveto just up your communication in
different kind of ways.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
You know, I had people who are like driving in
their car and doing therapy andlike that's not a good idea.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Pull over, sit down and enjoy this.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Enjoy our discussion good idea pull over, sit down
and enjoy this, enjoy ourdiscussion.
I had someone who was doing agarage sale while she was trying
to do a therapy session.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I'm like no, let's reschedule.
Well, if she cleans out all thatjunk, then you know, maybe
she'll feel you know somerelease there um, something that
I've noticed and you know justa little bit more about my
personal life is therapy isabout what you get out, what you
put in to therapy, and it comesback down to how you
(35:37):
communicate.
You know how honest you are,but a lot of during that process
it's more aboutself-realization, like when
you're trying to break down yourproblems to somebody who just
knows a few things about you andyou're trying to distill it.
In that process you simplifyyour complicated problems and it
(36:02):
changes the way that you feelabout your problems and,
additionally, it gives you a newperspective.
So I've noticed, at least in mytherapy, a lot of my session is
like this this realization,like I made this out to be such
a big deal, but it wasn't, orlike you know, um, it's, it's,
(36:23):
it's a realization process.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So I don't know, maybe I'm thinking about it
differently, but yeah, no, Ithink that that's a really good
way to say that.
You know, I think about so muchof the time.
We have to see that we are notour problems.
We are a whole perfect self andwe have problems and challenges
and when it feels like it's allone, it feels terrible.
(36:48):
But when you can say, oh, I'mhaving a problem with blah, blah
, blah Me and my ex, my job,Tell me about your job and then
what you know, you get somedistance.
Like you said you can.
That's part of simplifying it,but it's also getting some being
able to look at it from adifferent point of view.
You know that whole idea aboutthe elephant.
(37:11):
You know where you look at theelephant.
It's a different thing yeah you,you want to be able to do that,
to really understand and shiftyeah right, because we're really
helping you shift yourphysiology from that fight or
flight kind of anxious place tomore of a relaxed kind of calm
(37:34):
place, because that's where wereally think best.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, and then you get in there and do your thing.
I'm curious and, as I startedum in cyber security and my
career has been, you know, 10years plus in cyber security,
now something that I neverreally thought about and now
that I'm in this industry, Ithink a lot about ethics, right,
(38:03):
you know like what?
Like what's ethical, what'sunethical?
So this might be an interestingquestion, but what do you see
is the biggest ethicalchallenges in psychology,
especially in the digital age?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So I had a mentor who said was kind of reading the
tea leaves and said eventuallythe good therapists are going to
be called something likepsychics or something because,
you won't be able to be aneffective therapist under all
(38:44):
these rules.
won't be able to be an effectivetherapist under all these rules
, and so I think that's going tobe.
The biggest ethical problem iswhen we start feel like, okay,
let me give you an example.
I treat trans people and womenand men too, but in Texas if a
(39:08):
neighbor heard I was treatingthat neighbor's kid who was 13,
because they had trans issues,they could turn me in, they
could take away my license andcharge me $10,000.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
If I told a woman she could go to another state to
have an abortion, I could losemy license that's embarrassing,
so you know you you're having to.
How do you be really helpful topeople who need help?
right and I'm talking aboutreally crazy things that are
(39:49):
happening, those examples.
But then you're just talkingabout if I'm, if I'm spending
all my time following the rules,how much time is left for me to
actually do the therapy.
So right, there's two kinds ofethical issues in that way.
You know, I'm giving you thecrazy thing that's happening in
(40:09):
our world.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Politically, but I'm also just talking about all the
rules and regulations that arecoming in.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
I feel like that's a mic drop moment right there.
I feel like that's a mic dropmoment right there.
Like you know, like you know,therapists, doctors, whatever
nurses like, should be focusedon quality of care and that's
the most important thing, youknow, instead of you know,
tiptoeing around policies orlegal challenges or all these
(40:43):
things, it just eats into thequality of care, the experience
that you get from yourpracticing physician or
psychologist or whatever.
It just takes away fromeverything and it's embarrassing
.
It's embarrassing that we fromeverything.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yeah, and it's embarrassing.
It's embarrassing that we'rehere.
Yeah, and you know, of coursewe want to protect people from
bad treatment.
Sure so you understand wherethese things come from, but when
they've kind of gone over thetop.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
This is.
This is another interestingquestion.
I came to some hard questions.
In case you, can't tell so forour listeners out there.
You know we have a lot in thetech space.
You know we have a lot of, youknow, systems administrators.
You know people that serve andwear multiple hats and they're
(41:43):
juggling all these differentthings that life has thrown at
you or your boss has thrown atyou.
You know, not everybody isgoing to be able to go directly
to you.
You know maybe a couple of them.
You know right, but how do youseparate a good therapist from a
(42:03):
bad therapist and how do youknow this is the right therapist
for me?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Well, I think our job as therapists is trying to
teach people how to make how tohow to make those decisions.
So I know that there's some, Ithink psychology today does it,
but I on the website fortherapists, they, I think they
talk a little bit about how doyou choose a therapist?
(42:30):
I think one of the things I sayto people is the research at
least the research a coupleyears ago is that within like
eight to 10 sessions, a clientshould be making some progress.
If not, it's the wrongtherapist or the wrong technique
.
So I always tell people I wantyou to let's talk about what
(42:52):
your goals are.
We're going to be checking into see if we're actually making
progress, if I'm the right matchfor you.
I think that's ourresponsibility is to help people
think about if they're gettingwhat they want from the process.
Now, clearly, not everybodydoes that, but that's what I do
(43:12):
and I like.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Yeah, amazing response.
This is kind of a nextgeneration.
I kind of want to talk a littlebit about the next generation.
I feel like you have so muchinsight that you know I mean
maybe somebody out there mightbe listening who's interested in
psychology, or you know, maybegetting into the field, or maybe
(43:37):
somebody's daughter, son, niece, nephew, you know what I mean.
That's how podcasts work right.
How do you think psychologyeducation and training need to
evolve to prepare futuretherapists?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Well, I hope we have young people who are interested
in doing this, because I lovewhat I do.
It's a powerful thing to feellike you're making a difference
in people's lives and offeringsomething that helps you know
versus something else.
So you know, I love what I do.
You know, I think that you hada great idea.
(44:20):
And why don't we get some kindof a in school?
So when I went to school, theydidn't train us about how to be
a therapist.
They, you know, they expectedus to go into agencies and not
do something on our own.
There should be classes on howdo you build a business?
(44:41):
How do you think about this?
How do you streamline it so youcan do the best job you can?
How do you think about whatkind of ongoing training you
should be doing to keep up withwhat's happening in the field?
How do you do that?
How do you put together asupport system?
So it would be really greatbecause we have to.
Right now you're just kind ofscrambling around to find those
(45:04):
answers.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
You know, fortunately you have to be in supervision
right now and good supervisorsare going to help people cobble
that together.
But but again, it would be sonice if you had some systems
that were really thinking aboutthat in a better way.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I couldn't agree more .
Let's frame that also towards,maybe, psych students who are
just coming out of theuniversity.
Hey, I don't even know whattype of therapist I want to be.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Yeah, they're not supposed to know.
They don't need to know that,they need to know.
I like this field, I likelearning and I'm going to take a
smattering of different thingsand get a direction.
Hopefully, people start outmore general.
That's what you want to do andsay, oh, I really like working
(46:03):
with x yeah so, um, that peoplealso have personality or
behavioral traits that help leadthem right.
So if you're a really analyticperson who likes lots detail,
you might want to go more intosome of the testing.
They're doing some incrediblekinds of testing these these
(46:26):
days so that you're reallylooking more at that data or
research.
You know a research person oror if you really more a
generalist, you know you'regoing to like to do more, you
might want to be more ageneralist.
You know you're gonna are I'mlike to do more.
You might want to be more atherapist.
Like you know, there's so manythings now that are available
(46:50):
once people get kind of thebasics that makes a ton of sense
.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Um, this podcast has just we've done.
You know we've covered so muchand you know something that you
know, I guess before ourdiscussion, you know I had never
really thought about, but youknow, we talked a bit about
coaching, we talked about abouttherapy, we talked about
psychology.
(47:18):
Right, and to somebody like me,like those are pretty much the
same thing, but they're not.
So do you see a future wherethe lines are blurred between,
like, coaching, therapy,psychology, like do you see
(47:41):
those merging together?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Well, I think certain groups are.
So I think psychiatrists arebecoming more and more giving
medicine.
They're getting more into themedical verse.
Used to be.
Psychiatrists were greattherapists.
Some of the best therapists inhistory were psychiatrists.
You know Jung Freud, you knowthey were great therapists.
Some of the best therapists inhistory were psychiatrists.
(48:04):
You know Jung Freud, you knowthey were great.
So now I think psychology,social work, clinical coaching
they're more and more comingtogether.
More and more of us therapistsare getting coaching training
and more coaches are gettingtherapy training.
So we're kind of seeing theskills of sometimes you want to
(48:26):
be very practical help peoplewith a particular problem.
They've identified a problem.
We're going to solve thatproblem.
Some people are here for morehow to understand their life and
how to help explore what theproblems are in there that's
holding them back, that they maynot be able to describe.
So I think that's all kind ofcoming together.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Let's get out the crystal ball and in.
In 10 years, what do you thinktherapy will look like?
Like psychology?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Psychics.
What do you think therapy will?
Speaker 1 (49:05):
look like like psychology, psychics.
The crystal ball is thedifference.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yeah, well I think it's going to continue to get
two-tiered, that people whocan't afford it are going to get
the agency six sessions, takemedicine and we're done.
I mean it's going to be andthen people who have money are
(49:31):
going to have better health careand better mental health care.
I think that's the sad thing.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
That's terrible and tragic.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
You know, the only thing we can try to help do is
add, get people to be aware andvote for what they need yeah,
100 um.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
And this again we talked a little bit about, you
know, like doing a new businessstarter kit and all these like
these, these amazing things thatcould happen If you could
redesign one part of thepsychology field, whether it be
licensing, education or even,you know, delivery.
(50:13):
What do you think it would be?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Okay, what holds me back is the threat of being sued
.
So there are many horrorstories of someone who's decided
they don't like the therapistand they, you know, put in a
complaint and it can ruin thetherapist's life.
(50:41):
So so much of what I having alicense.
Even though they say itprotects you, it also doesn't
protect you.
So you know, I have to thinkabout is this person who wants
treatment going to be the kindof person that I can trust and
(51:05):
worrying about that?
And so there, you know thatthat you hate to have to make
that kind of be thinking aboutthat, yeah, or mine, oh my God,
from what you were saying islike, oh my God, I'm going to be
sued.
I don't have any of those kindof things in place that you're
talking about.
You know, like it'soverwhelming.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
So I think that's the biggest concern I have in my
field.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
That's crazy, like I mean you're out here trying to
help people and you know, justbecause you're out here helping
people, I mean usually that'srooted right.
You think about nurses, youthink about doctors, you think
about therapists, right, likeyou're all mission driven to
help people have a better life,to live a safer life or, you
know, to to be healthy orwhatever it is Like you know
(51:55):
there should be adequateprotections in place for people
like you where you can focus on,you know, patient satisfaction.
Yeah, you know, like if you know, god forbid, you know a surgeon
cuts off the wrong leg.
We actually had somebody thatthat, that talked about that on
one of our other podcastepisodes and he, you know, made
(52:17):
a medical robots, you know, andwe were talking about he was
talking about some type of theway that it drills through parts
of the skull and you know thereused to be a like.
There's a very small margin oferror, because if you hit a
nerve here, like, you'reparalyzed for like the rest of
(52:38):
your life and you, so you haveone thing and they made some
type of technology where youknow you can I don't know what,
it very complicated, but you cansee where that nerve is on the
patient.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
So you can go around it which is crazy.
It is yeah, and you know aswe're talking, you also want to
make sure that bad treatment.
You know as we're talking, youalso want to make sure that bad
treatment.
You know people don't get badtreatment.
They'll get the long leg takenoff or traumatized with their
therapist because they did a badjob.
I mean, again, there are somany things we're trying to
(53:13):
balance here about having goodtreatment and you know how do
you and, of course course,what's the difference of bad
treatment, and sometimes peoplemake mistakes that sure yeah
aren't on purpose but are stillcould be devastating.
I mean there's right we go from.
There's black and white,there's so much gray yeah, I got
(53:37):
two more questions for you.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
This has been a crazy fun episode.
It's been great to talk withyou too, or I mean you talked
about dealing with.
(53:59):
You know even the educationalspace of dealing with students
and up and coming entrepreneursand things of that.
How do you feel likepsychologists can better
collaborate with otherdisciplines in the future?
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Well, it would be really nice if we had some kind
of a space, you know, an onlinespace, where we could safely,
could, could, can, could connectwith each other.
That would because you know wehave to we end up leaving
messages for physicians tryingto get let them know that we've
seen their patient or give themsome update.
(54:35):
It's always hard becauseeverybody's so busy trying to
find some kind of a space thatwe could all connect with each
other yeah, yeah, I mean thatwould be kind of like linkedin,
but for just doctors, yeah,where there's no spam and no bs.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Um, so we we talked a lot about, you know,
entrepreneurship.
I feel like we talked about,you know, starting a business,
growing a business.
You know licensing.
I mean therapy, I meanpsychology.
I mean we've touched on a lotUm, what role do you feel like
(55:18):
psychology will play in solvingyou know, bigger global
challenges?
And something that comes tomind is, like you know there's
people that I mean, dare I sayit are deranged in this modern
world, but also you have a lotof anxiety in this world.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
You also have a lot of loneliness.
Well, I think it's all aboutthe nervous system.
I think you've got to go backto the body.
You have to help peoplerecognize when they're in that
sympathetic part of our nervoussystem which is fight or flight.
You have to help them recognizehow to shift into a
parasympathetic state and it's.
I think it's all about that andhow you co-regulate.
(56:02):
So you know you co-regulate.
I can help regulate somebody ifI'm in a good spot, or my
animals.
I have my standard poodles whoare part of my practice, you
know, petting the animals,working with the horses.
There's ways that we helpco-regulate each other and I
(56:23):
think that's how we're going tohave to help people.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
That is an absolute epic, epic response.
I can't thank you enough forspending so much of your time
with us.
I feel like I got a freetherapy lesson out of this.
So much of your time with us.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
I feel like I got a free therapy lesson out of this
Blake it's been great talking toyou.
Thanks, and I'm so sorry Imissed the first time we had.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
No, you made up for it this time.
No, of course you made up forit this time.
Let people know where they canfind you, how they can connect
with you, you know, let themknow.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
So there are two different websites that's Relate
Center in Austin, Texas.
That's relatecentercom, orbeyondboundariescoachingnet,
which is a bummer.
That it's net Sarah.
It's Sarah at Relate Center.
(57:23):
It's the easiest way to go andI'd love to hear from anyone
who'd be interested in eitherjust talking more about this or
coming in for some work.
Speaker 1 (57:30):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
We'll make sure to leave.
And our podcast yeah, we have apodcast on Beyond Boundaries
Coaching.
You can find us on Apple on allthe major podcasting services.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
We will certainly in our show notes here link
everything where you can findSarah.
Thank, you, everybody, she.
This was a fun one.
This was a fun one.
Again.
I can't thank you for spendingso much time with us sharing
your you know your opinion onpsychology.
I mean, we talked a lot aboutentrepreneurship and I mean you
(58:06):
know the future of therapy.
Speaker 2 (58:15):
Thank you so much, thanks for you Great to talk
with and good luck and I can'twait to hear it.
Yeah, podcast, it sounds reallyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
It'll be out before you know it.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Bye.
Hello and welcome to another episode here of our
podcast.
Sitting in front of me is noneother than Sarah from Relate
Center.
Sarah is an amazing, amazing,amazing therapist.
She has been in this space forquite a while 35 years of
experience working withindividuals couples
(00:23):
professionals 35 years ofexperience working with
individuals couplesprofessionals.
Sarah really takes ascience-based approach, deeply
personal approach to creatinglasting relationships that not
only work in your personal lifebut also in your professional
career.
Not only has Sarah's impactgone beyond the therapy room she
delivers workshops on teamwork,leadership, communication and
businesses all across thecountry.
(00:44):
Sarah, welcome to our podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Well, thank you for having me, Blake.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, yeah, hopefully that does you some justice
there.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's a lovely, lovely intro.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I had more, I could have kept going, but I wanted
you to get in.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Well, let's get into the meat of it.
That's good for me.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Yeah, so tell everybody.
I've told everybody what you do, but let's put your frame on it
.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Sure Well, you did a beautiful job, thank you.
I am a clinical social workerby training and have a specialty
in sex and relationshipcounseling, and we some of my
colleagues and I had built abusiness called Relate Center in
Austin, texas, where we'rereally putting together all the
new kind of data on what helpspeople have the best physical
(01:35):
and emotional intimaterelationship.
So that means physicaltherapists, pilates
psychotherapistsists, physicianswe really work to give people a
well-rounded sense ofprofessional help where?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
where did the need come for you guys to start
relate center?
And like, where was thatburning passion?
Like, hey, we have to do thiswell, you know there were.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
It was really hard to find people who had really
specific skills to help in thisarea and we kept finding that
people got dropped.
Like you would have a clientyou want to send her to a
physical therapist, but thenthat never happened, or we
didn't have any way really tocome back and make sure that the
(02:20):
person was getting anindividual kind of an experience
.
And we really wanted to makesure that we were all talking
and that we really had that kindof this bigger view for the
individual or the couple.
And so it just.
We just started working with acouple of people who had the
same philosophy and just said,hey, let's do this.
(02:40):
And we've now been in businessabout 16 years.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Wow, it sounds like you kind of got through a lot of
the ups and downs.
You know, obviously, working inhealthcare, there's a lot of
fun stuff that you guys have togo through when you're dealing
with patient records.
I mean, health data is verysensitive data.
Talk about how you kind of gotthrough some of those data
(03:09):
challenges that businesses do.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, you know, I think that's such a good
question because what we decidedto do to protect people's
privacy was be out of networkproviders.
So in network I would have toprove that somebody was crazy
enough, sick enough to still gethelp, and I was often dealing
with administrators about tryingto prove someone needed my care
(03:35):
.
So we decided as anout-of-network provider, even
though it was more costly, itprovided people more protection.
We felt like people who weremore famous, well-known, were
hesitant to come in because theydidn't want those records to be
in anyone else's file.
(03:55):
So we thought about it fromthat point of view as well as
just generally wanting to helpstreamline the services.
Many times if you're justlooking for a network, you are
more limited on who actually hadthe specialty you were looking
for.
So that helped us.
We all keep our own records, weall work with our own kind of
(04:18):
system.
So we're individual, we're anindividual practice, we're a
group of individually mindedpractice people with the same
philosophy.
But that's how we ended up withit and it clearly has, you know
, limits, because we really want, you wish, for people to be
able to have access to insuranceand to help that they should
(04:41):
have.
But we're just trying to dealwith the real world here.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, since you started Relate Center to now,
how have you seen the businessevolve?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, you know we went through COVID.
So I think the most importantthing is we all learned how to
do online counseling.
So how do we try to reachpeople?
And you know that was a bigadvantage for many, many people,
not even after COVID because ofI don't know what traffic is
like in Las Vegas, but in Austinit's crazy and you know it
(05:16):
would take people an hour to getto an office and an hour to get
home.
Hour to get home.
So it's really opened uppeople's ability to get help and
in that way it's it's all.
It's more cost effective forpeople and for us.
It's convenient and I can be inNew Jersey and I'm still working
with people, because I can workwith people from different,
(05:39):
because I also have a coachingcertificate.
So I'm I have an internationalcoaching certificate as well as
a license, and that helps meimmediately have protection.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, with your background in psychology and
clinical social work, how didyou kind of transition into
coaching and the thoughtleadership training?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Well, I've always had an interest in giving practical
help and working withentrepreneurs.
That's kind of my area of mostenjoyment, really.
People who are kind of sparedto try and do some of their own
kinds of things men and women,not necessarily businesses, but
that kind of personality,businesses but that kind of
(06:27):
personality.
So as I decided to move to abeautiful place, another
beautiful place, I needed tofind ways that I could see more
clients that weren't just in mystate, and so that has given me
the flexibility to do that.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
That is epic.
I'm curious as to your approachto healthcare.
Obviously, therapy is one ofthose things that's a very
catered, scientific,psychological intervention, if
we can use that term.
How is the approach that RelateCenter takes to psychotherapy
(07:05):
different than you know somebodywho you would stereotypically
sit down on a couch with andchalk it up?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
You know, I think that's such a good question
because there are lots ofdifferent modalities and many
modalities have fit for manydifferent kinds of people.
So we really I think who weattract are people who want a
lot of science-based studies anddata.
So a lot of our practicesaround sexual health, so many of
(07:34):
our clients come fromphysicians who need to have
someone looking at a differentkind of filling in what they
can't do medically.
So that's part of who I thinkwe're attracting is people who
are referrals.
I think our approach is alsopractical.
(07:58):
So we want people to like whyare they here?
What are your goals?
Are we meeting your goals?
We do long-term therapy some ofus as well, but all really with
.
Are we helping someone get fromA to Z so that they can really
see progress and feel itphysiologically as well?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
When obviously a lot of people use kind of COVID as a
transition period.
We've heard it so many timesthe way that businesses operate
immediately had to shift duringCOVID, especially now with the
prevalence of telehealth, likefor Relate Center, getting
(08:43):
people comfortable kind of doingthe telehealth.
Or were you guys already kindof ready to go when?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
that happened.
Well, you know that'sinteresting that you're asking
me about that, because I hadtaken a part-time position while
I was out of town working withan online company, so I was
already starting to look at thatto learn how to use the
(09:10):
computer, to learn, kind of, howto use different avenues.
So when COVID happened, Ireally already had a little
preview and a jumpstart to it.
That helped me a lot and Ithink we also just trying to
figure out how do we getservices to people.
There was an organization, anational organization, that
(09:32):
offered free therapy to peoplein health care reach the people
in need.
And you know when, when you'retalking to people in, you know
in the hospitals or watchingpeople die all the time, you
(09:52):
want to be able to get themaccess right away to get some
help with that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
Um, and I'm assuming now thatyou've been so successful at
Relate Center and the way thatyou see patients, has your
approach to the way that youserve customers through
telehealth changed?
Have you shifted the businessto accommodate?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yes, absolutely, especially because now that I
have to do virtual work most ofthe time, unless I'm doing
workshops and I think it'sworked really really well it's
nice that we still have peoplewho can do in-person.
I think it's a greatcombination of some people who
want to be able to keep doingonline, as well as the people
(10:40):
who really want to come and seesomeone in person.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, as well as the people who really want to come
and see someone in person.
Yeah, I'm curious as to youknow, obviously when you start a
healthcare service company Imean especially when you're
handling, you know, patientrecords you know obviously HIPAA
comes to mind.
You have to deal a lot withHIPAA the way that you handle
data, the way that you transmitdata.
(11:04):
What was your thought processto approaching HIPAA, to
approaching patient data, how isstored, how is transmitted, and
how did you bring some of thosebuilt-in compliance and
security mandates into yourpractice?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
That is a complicated answer and so I'm going to tell
you my process.
So I did sign up.
I do an online schedulingcredit card note taking service.
I limit what I actually putdown in terms of my notes.
(11:45):
I keep my file drawer withnotes.
I try not to actually writedown anything that I think could
get my client in troublebecause I don't really try.
I've had a bad experience withthe courts, you know, getting my
notes and not being as carefulas I should have been earlier in
(12:07):
my career when I didn'tunderstand kind of the
consequences, but certainly it'sbeen very.
You know, I don't know how youall or what you're finding out
about this, but it's really hardto find programs that are
geared for small businesses.
So many of these programs arereally built for these big, big
(12:29):
companies with lots oftherapists and do insurance that
are really kind of geared thatway and can be very expensive.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
So you know, we're always kind of struggling about
what's the best program that cangive me what I need, protects
my clients, protects their themfinancially, but also is has
some kind of flexibility of howI work yeah, that makes a lot of
sense, um, and it's an, it's aninteresting perspective and
(13:01):
thank you for being so candidand so honest and, um, and I'm
sure, obviously, in your entireamazing career, you've learned a
lot and you've changed a lotand you've grown a lot.
So, the way that you dobusiness and the way that you
handle, uh, information, um, notonly that too, but it's just
changed a lot over the years.
Like, if you look at HIPAA,like HIPAA, um, you know, it was
(13:23):
written in 1996, which was, youknow, most people weren't doing
telehealth and things like thatback then.
And then, you know, they had anew privacy rule that was
finalized in 2000.
And then in 2003, you know, ofcourse, they came out with some
more rules around, like EPHI andadministrative and physical
(13:44):
safeguards, and I mean 2006,2009.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I've had a lawyer tell me that if anyone wanted to
look at anyone's books reallyclosely, we'd all be in trouble.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Oh, totally, totally.
Yeah, I mean, it's weird.
A lot of the people that wetalk to, they essentially try to
avoid handling patient recordas much as possible so they can
skirt around HIPAA, or they usesystems that are essentially
(14:22):
offload A lot of it, like Epic.
Like Epic is, you know, kind ofthe industry leader, um, in in
our opinion, and in patientrecord management, um, you know
obviously now, um, in 2020, well, in 2025, I guess now we were
expecting, you know, somechanges to HIPAA.
(14:43):
You know around likemulti-factor authentication it
had to be mandatory.
You know data encryption.
You know not only patienthealth information at rest, but
in transit.
And now, in 2025, patients andproviders are going to have to
(15:06):
go through an annual riskanalysis which is fun I was like
kidding like a colonoscopyevery year, wow.
And not only that, too, but youknow coming up with incident
response, disaster recoveryplans, oh yeah yeah.
(15:28):
Internal audits.
You know compliance audits, andnot only that too, but with the
2025 proposed rule changes,they're going to be a little bit
stricter on vendor managementand how you know sensitive data
gets out and how you respond tothat Um, and they're going to
(15:50):
talk a little bit in some ofthese new proposed rules about
um, uh, like, uh, employeeturnover.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
You know so, like if somebody leaves your practice,
like how you suspend theiraccess to you know phi, which is
fun so a lot of fun, a lot offun stuff to prepare for right,
which is why I'm going to acoaching kind of model sure you
know I, what's happening is it'sforcing out a lot of good
(16:22):
practitioners because, it'sbecome more and more
administrative versus actuallygiving treatment.
And you know, I think that's.
You know you can kind ofunderstand where it comes from,
but it's just overwhelming formost of us, especially unless
(16:45):
you know, unless you have your.
Maybe what it's going to do ismake all therapists have to join
these big practices so that theadministrators handle
everything and they don't haveto do it.
But you know, when I joinedthis one online company, my, my
salary was a third of what Iusually make.
(17:06):
So you know, I think that's.
The other thing is they'remaking it very hard for people
to actually provide treatment inmy field.
It's very discouraging for me.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I agree they're making it complicated to be in
healthcare.
If we had more of a starter kit, like if we gave and I hope the
government listens to thingslike these.
but if we had a starter kit.
Like a starter kit, like hey,look, here here's a starter kit
(17:48):
that you can use to get intohealthcare, especially as a mom
and pop practice.
You know, with you know ahandful of providers, um, where
it's not not expensive, a lot ofthe heavy lifting is done for
you.
Um, you know, out of the box,you're ready to kind of just
start seeing patients andtreating and treating patients
(18:09):
and providing, you know, extracare, like you know amazing care
, like I wish we got there.
Yeah, because you know ourhealth care system is is a wonky
one is a wonky one.
I've seen it from the other side.
I've lived in Europe and I'vespent quite a lot of time in the
(18:31):
markets out there and inlearning how they treat patients
.
And yeah, it's a very weirdprocess here, especially
considering everything operateson a referral network.
So your primary care refers youto X Y Z, who then refers you
to X Y Z, and then it's justthis snowball of referrals which
(18:55):
doesn't really exist in otherhealthcare markets that I've
been a part of.
Um, I'm curious to yourapproach.
So from what I read about you,I mean you're a very
accomplished individual.
First of all, let me say youalso work with corporate teams.
Is that accurate?
(19:16):
Yes, wow, okay, so I'm curiousto how.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Professional teams, so I would say, not big
corporations.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Maybe I'm interrupting too soon.
I've worked a lot with the lawschool in Austin, helping train
young lawyers and helping themlearn how they are on a team,
and some entrepreneurs, somesmall businesses that are more
(19:51):
that not some family businesses,but also just smaller kinds of
groups who are looking at how todo better leadership.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Would you say that, how you cater your curriculum or
your therapy services, how didyou refine those?
You know, obviously it soundslike you came from seeing people
one-on-one in a patient setting, kind of graduating into
working with multiple people,kind of trying to to jump.
(20:23):
People learn differently.
People you know processinformation differently.
So how did you approach seeingsomebody one-on-one to?
Then you know coaching teamsand developing team.
You know team building.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So you know, a lot of this just like happens by
chance, where I think I had aclient who worked at a law firm
who said, hey, would you comeand give a talk to the young
women lawyers?
And we're like, sure, why not?
You know, I think a lot ofopportunities is that as well.
(21:00):
I think I could do that, let'stry.
In fact, I think that thattends to be one of the things
that women have a harder timedoing, of just being able to try
something, even if you're notsure you have all the skills.
(21:23):
Started working and taking upsome of those opportunities and
saying, hey, what about doingsome some workshop?
Hey, what about me learningwhat are some different ways to
teach people about themselves?
So, for example, some peoplelove working with some kind of
profiles, so we use differentkind of behavioral profiles that
(21:46):
help someone see themselvesbetter.
Then we would do, we do horseworkshops where people learn
leadership skills from thehorses who can't, you know,
can't tell you what to do, butthey react and you kind of learn
from their reaction of you'reconnected or you're a leader or
not.
And I think that as I grew, youknow, I wanted to share it with
(22:09):
different kinds of people, andthen that grew from there.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
How do you feel like psychology has evolved, I mean
since you got in the industry,you know, a while ago.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, wow.
Well, that's yeah, because Isat around in my college in one
of those early self-awarenessgroups in 1975.
So, wow, that's crazy.
It's changed quite a bit sincethen.
You know, for one thing, wehave so much more data now of
(22:44):
what actually helps.
We have more of a sense of wehave to deal with people.
Listen, when I first went tosex therapy school, they
believed that almost all sexualproblems were in your head.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And we've learned that that's just not true.
Have learned that that's justnot true.
There are so many things thatare about how you are, what
happens through trauma and howyou are in your body, as well as
different kind of biologicalmedical issues.
We just know so much more, somuch more of what I do really in
(23:20):
my practices.
Tell people what we know about.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Let me tell you what we now know or what we don't
know about.
X.
Sure, I was thinking you wouldI mean, based off our, our
limited interactions that I wasthinking you'd say something
also along the lines of um, the,the people's willingness to
participate, and it's, you know,like, like therapy.
You know it used to be kind oftaboo, you know nobody would
(23:49):
talk about it, that you're intherapy and it was kind of like
one of those little secrets.
You know that like it's a reallygood point, you know you keep
under, uh, under like tight lockand key, but now people are, oh
, yeah, just, how do you know?
Just I'm, that's true, I'mgoing to therapy at at 1, like
you know, like people are moreopen, um, and with the rise of,
(24:10):
you know, digital, the digitalinfrastructure that we live in,
people have kind of embracedthis and and, and you know the
lack of um, uh, I mean, accessto physicians and patient.
I mean, I mean now, I mean Ican connect with you who's in
New Jersey, I'm in Vegas and youknow, I, you know not not have
(24:31):
access to your skill set here,because the health care system
in Vegas is absolutely terrible.
Besides, the point for therapyhas changed and how people
interpret it.
And, and, yeah, I mean no shamehere, I've, I've been in
(24:53):
therapy for multiple years,right, you know, because I've,
I've, I've watched.
I watched this one.
I don't know what it was.
It was like info doc orsomething, and they talked about
how the brain and you probablywill love this but how the brain
has evolved to modern stressand modern scheduling.
(25:14):
Like our brain is not designedto process the amount of
information that we put throughit every single day.
So burnout, right, I mean somany of the workforce industry
is burned.
I mean, at least in my field, Ican tell you for sure.
Probably in others, but yourbrain was not designed to take
(25:36):
and use it the way that we useit in this modern world.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
True, right, yeah, well, you know.
That's such a good point thatwe know now that part of the
reason that we started ourpodcast and we're also now
writing a book is to be able toget information out to people
that they may not have.
So many people need justinformation so that they can
(26:01):
live their life more effectivelyso that they can live their
life more effectively?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, what areas do you feel like of psychology are
evolving the fastest right now,or maybe even the ones that are
maybe the most misunderstood?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
you know whether it's clinical or yeah, I think the
whole issue around body, aroundsomatic training, trauma of you
know, ptsd, stress I think somuch more is being studied about
that, about how to help people.
I've had multiple trainings indealing with trauma and how to
(26:41):
integrate people, kind of amind-body approach, positive
intelligence, emotionalintelligence, how you really
kind of put together thedifferent things Because one we
either had the idea that insightwas enough.
Once I understand what happenedto me, I will be completely
(27:02):
healthy, happened to me, I willbe completely healthy.
That didn't seem to work RightRight.
Or if I just know all of myemotions, that'll work.
If it's really about how do youintegrate, how do you
understand your history and yourweight survival mechanism, how
do you live in your body in away that helps it calm down so
it can respond to all thisstress?
(27:23):
And how do you shift?
You know how do you shift tothink more productively or act
more productively.
So that's to me, the magic thatis making these things more
doable more access, right.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Do you feel like there's newer promising
approaches or maybe modalitiesthat are more promising that
you've started to realize in thefield you know?
I think the idea is we do needto be open to what are the new
things.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I just recently took a course in positive
intelligence which really waskind of taking all these
complicated ideas and makingthem more accessible on your app
.
You know it's how do you getpeople to start using the tools?
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, something that I've noticed too, or maybe you
could probably talk on, is thetype of persona that you know
generally we'll see a therapistis usually a higher um people.
A lot, a lot of underprivilegeduh communities don't have
(28:51):
access to physical uh um or, I'msorry, psychological uh therapy
.
Um, how, how do you feel likewe can introduce psychotherapy
to these types of communitiesand how do you think we can kind
of get through that?
You know, this is life-changing.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Well, you know, I think that that's so important
and such a big problem and youknow, I think we're losing the
middle class more and more, notgaining it, so there are more
and more people who don't haveaccess to any health care or
mental health care.
That's part of why I've alwaysliked coming from social work,
(29:33):
because I think it's trying toreach all people versus limited
but um, I don't know how we'regoing to do that yeah you know I
don't know how people you knowwhat I've always tried to do is
offer some low-fee servicesalong in my practice.
(29:55):
I try to do so.
I used to.
I'm clearly not doing them nowthat I'm not in Austin.
But some free talks wherepeople can come in, but some
free talks where people can comeum.
I think I've worked in doctor'soffices where I would be a part
of the team, so we were doingthat early on and I think that
you know help people be able toget some access because, again,
(30:17):
it's information a lot of peoplejust don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
And men are afraid to ask.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Totally.
It's almost like embarrassingfor people to ask for help these
days, which is a shame.
Yeah, I'm curious.
It's something that I'vethought a lot about, and maybe
there's no answer, maybe youhave the perfect answer, but it
(30:49):
seems like people and I can onlyspeak from my personal
experience.
I got into therapy when I waslike the glass was overflowing
of life and I'm like I need tosee somebody, I need to talk to
somebody, I need to see some, Ineed to talk to somebody.
Do you think there are kind oflike do you think there is a
(31:09):
preventative approach to therapy, to psychotherapy, instead of
just saying, oh shit, I'm hereand now I need to talk to
somebody?
Like, like, how do you getahead of needing therapy?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Well, you know, yes, absolutely yes.
And I have had some familieswhere they have their kids come
in, not because they're havingproblems but because, hey,
they're a teenager, let's getyou in so that you know, you
start getting someself-awareness.
And you know, I think more andmore people are aware that they
(31:46):
need to help their kids haveskills, especially now you think
of what kids are going through.
Young people have so muchpressure on them and there's so
many limitations that are put onthem now in this world with
what's happening.
So, you know, I think that thattakes us, it takes our
(32:07):
generations, to help these new,these new generations come in.
That would give them tools sothey can say, hey, are you
reaching close to that point?
Then it's time to go back inand talk to somebody.
Sure, I'm working right nowwith a kid who's doing a junior
(32:27):
year abroad and, um, her parentsare like we're still gonna have
you talk to her.
So, even though she's in southamerica, she's we're doing
therapy.
Yeah, just because they knewthey were gonna, she was going
to be in some new experiencesthat she wasn't sure how to deal
with.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I mean, yeah, that is amazing that parents are that
supportive of her mental health.
I'm curious and this is goingto be a huge pivot.
But you know we've talked.
We've talked a lot abouttransitioning Relate Center, you
know, from seeing patients inperson to, you know, covid, to
(33:09):
the online boom, to telehealth.
We've touched on a lot of that,something that I can speak from
, to my personal experience, andthat's a lot of the stuff that
I try to bring into the podcast.
You know, because I'm a patient, we're all patients.
You know, because I'm a patient, we're all patients.
But with the rise of telehealth, you've also seen the decline
(33:29):
in the quality of care.
So how does Relate Centeraddress that?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Well, I'm not sure how each one of us would say
that, how each one of us wouldsay that I miss not being able
to have some personal contact.
You know, I think what's bestis you mix the two so you have
(33:59):
some real contact with somebodyand then you can work virtually.
I don't have that opportunityright now.
Part of what I'm doing to tryto stay more connected is I use
my text and email more so that Itry to let people know if
they're having a hard time.
You know, we can check in witheach other, we can do a short
(34:20):
call.
There are lots of ways to try tokind of get past that.
I just have an hour once a weekor every other week, because
that's the other thing.
That's happened a lot becausethe costs have keep going up.
A lot of people are now comingin every other week and that's
much harder to keep the threadof how are you doing?
(34:40):
Are you making progress?
Where are you getting stuck?
So you know, I think you haveto just up your communication in
different kind of ways.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
You know, I had people who are like driving in
their car and doing therapy andlike that's not a good idea.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Pull over, sit down and enjoy this.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Enjoy our discussion good idea pull over, sit down
and enjoy this, enjoy ourdiscussion.
I had someone who was doing agarage sale while she was trying
to do a therapy session.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I'm like no, let's reschedule.
Well, if she cleans out all thatjunk, then you know, maybe
she'll feel you know somerelease there um, something that
I've noticed and you know justa little bit more about my
personal life is therapy isabout what you get out, what you
put in to therapy, and it comesback down to how you
(35:37):
communicate.
You know how honest you are,but a lot of during that process
it's more aboutself-realization, like when
you're trying to break down yourproblems to somebody who just
knows a few things about you andyou're trying to distill it.
In that process you simplifyyour complicated problems and it
(36:02):
changes the way that you feelabout your problems and,
additionally, it gives you a newperspective.
So I've noticed, at least in mytherapy, a lot of my session is
like this this realization,like I made this out to be such
a big deal, but it wasn't, orlike you know, um, it's, it's,
(36:23):
it's a realization process.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So I don't know, maybe I'm thinking about it
differently, but yeah, no, Ithink that that's a really good
way to say that.
You know, I think about so muchof the time.
We have to see that we are notour problems.
We are a whole perfect self andwe have problems and challenges
and when it feels like it's allone, it feels terrible.
(36:48):
But when you can say, oh, I'mhaving a problem with blah, blah
, blah Me and my ex, my job,Tell me about your job and then
what you know, you get somedistance.
Like you said you can.
That's part of simplifying it,but it's also getting some being
able to look at it from adifferent point of view.
You know that whole idea aboutthe elephant.
(37:11):
You know where you look at theelephant.
It's a different thing yeah you,you want to be able to do that,
to really understand and shiftyeah right, because we're really
helping you shift yourphysiology from that fight or
flight kind of anxious place tomore of a relaxed kind of calm
(37:34):
place, because that's where wereally think best.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, and then you get in there and do your thing.
I'm curious and, as I startedum in cyber security and my
career has been, you know, 10years plus in cyber security,
now something that I neverreally thought about and now
that I'm in this industry, Ithink a lot about ethics, right,
(38:03):
you know like what?
Like what's ethical, what'sunethical?
So this might be an interestingquestion, but what do you see
is the biggest ethicalchallenges in psychology,
especially in the digital age?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So I had a mentor who said was kind of reading the
tea leaves and said eventuallythe good therapists are going to
be called something likepsychics or something because,
you won't be able to be aneffective therapist under all
(38:44):
these rules.
won't be able to be an effectivetherapist under all these rules
, and so I think that's going tobe.
The biggest ethical problem iswhen we start feel like, okay,
let me give you an example.
I treat trans people and womenand men too, but in Texas if a
(39:08):
neighbor heard I was treatingthat neighbor's kid who was 13,
because they had trans issues,they could turn me in, they
could take away my license andcharge me $10,000.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
If I told a woman she could go to another state to
have an abortion, I could losemy license that's embarrassing,
so you know you you're having to.
How do you be really helpful topeople who need help?
right and I'm talking aboutreally crazy things that are
(39:49):
happening, those examples.
But then you're just talkingabout if I'm, if I'm spending
all my time following the rules,how much time is left for me to
actually do the therapy.
So right, there's two kinds ofethical issues in that way.
You know, I'm giving you thecrazy thing that's happening in
(40:09):
our world.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Politically, but I'm also just talking about all the
rules and regulations that arecoming in.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
I feel like that's a mic drop moment right there.
I feel like that's a mic dropmoment right there.
Like you know, like you know,therapists, doctors, whatever
nurses like, should be focusedon quality of care and that's
the most important thing, youknow, instead of you know,
tiptoeing around policies orlegal challenges or all these
(40:43):
things, it just eats into thequality of care, the experience
that you get from yourpracticing physician or
psychologist or whatever.
It just takes away fromeverything and it's embarrassing
.
It's embarrassing that we fromeverything.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yeah, and it's embarrassing.
It's embarrassing that we'rehere.
Yeah, and you know, of coursewe want to protect people from
bad treatment.
Sure so you understand wherethese things come from, but when
they've kind of gone over thetop.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
This is.
This is another interestingquestion.
I came to some hard questions.
In case you, can't tell so forour listeners out there.
You know we have a lot in thetech space.
You know we have a lot of, youknow, systems administrators.
You know people that serve andwear multiple hats and they're
(41:43):
juggling all these differentthings that life has thrown at
you or your boss has thrown atyou.
You know, not everybody isgoing to be able to go directly
to you.
You know maybe a couple of them.
You know right, but how do youseparate a good therapist from a
(42:03):
bad therapist and how do youknow this is the right therapist
for me?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Well, I think our job as therapists is trying to
teach people how to make how tohow to make those decisions.
So I know that there's some, Ithink psychology today does it,
but I on the website fortherapists, they, I think they
talk a little bit about how doyou choose a therapist?
(42:30):
I think one of the things I sayto people is the research at
least the research a coupleyears ago is that within like
eight to 10 sessions, a clientshould be making some progress.
If not, it's the wrongtherapist or the wrong technique
.
So I always tell people I wantyou to let's talk about what
(42:52):
your goals are.
We're going to be checking into see if we're actually making
progress, if I'm the right matchfor you.
I think that's ourresponsibility is to help people
think about if they're gettingwhat they want from the process.
Now, clearly, not everybodydoes that, but that's what I do
(43:12):
and I like.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Yeah, amazing response.
This is kind of a nextgeneration.
I kind of want to talk a littlebit about the next generation.
I feel like you have so muchinsight that you know I mean
maybe somebody out there mightbe listening who's interested in
psychology, or you know, maybegetting into the field, or maybe
(43:37):
somebody's daughter, son, niece, nephew, you know what I mean.
That's how podcasts work right.
How do you think psychologyeducation and training need to
evolve to prepare futuretherapists?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Well, I hope we have young people who are interested
in doing this, because I lovewhat I do.
It's a powerful thing to feellike you're making a difference
in people's lives and offeringsomething that helps you know
versus something else.
So you know, I love what I do.
You know, I think that you hada great idea.
(44:20):
And why don't we get some kindof a in school?
So when I went to school, theydidn't train us about how to be
a therapist.
They, you know, they expectedus to go into agencies and not
do something on our own.
There should be classes on howdo you build a business?
(44:41):
How do you think about this?
How do you streamline it so youcan do the best job you can?
How do you think about whatkind of ongoing training you
should be doing to keep up withwhat's happening in the field?
How do you do that?
How do you put together asupport system?
So it would be really greatbecause we have to.
Right now you're just kind ofscrambling around to find those
(45:04):
answers.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
You know, fortunately you have to be in supervision
right now and good supervisorsare going to help people cobble
that together.
But but again, it would be sonice if you had some systems
that were really thinking aboutthat in a better way.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I couldn't agree more .
Let's frame that also towards,maybe, psych students who are
just coming out of theuniversity.
Hey, I don't even know whattype of therapist I want to be.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Yeah, they're not supposed to know.
They don't need to know that,they need to know.
I like this field, I likelearning and I'm going to take a
smattering of different thingsand get a direction.
Hopefully, people start outmore general.
That's what you want to do andsay, oh, I really like working
(46:03):
with x yeah so, um, that peoplealso have personality or
behavioral traits that help leadthem right.
So if you're a really analyticperson who likes lots detail,
you might want to go more intosome of the testing.
They're doing some incrediblekinds of testing these these
(46:26):
days so that you're reallylooking more at that data or
research.
You know a research person oror if you really more a
generalist, you know you'regoing to like to do more, you
might want to be more ageneralist.
You know you're gonna are I'mlike to do more.
You might want to be more atherapist.
Like you know, there's so manythings now that are available
(46:50):
once people get kind of thebasics that makes a ton of sense
.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Um, this podcast has just we've done.
You know we've covered so muchand you know something that you
know, I guess before ourdiscussion, you know I had never
really thought about, but youknow, we talked a bit about
coaching, we talked about abouttherapy, we talked about
psychology.
(47:18):
Right, and to somebody like me,like those are pretty much the
same thing, but they're not.
So do you see a future wherethe lines are blurred between,
like, coaching, therapy,psychology, like do you see
(47:41):
those merging together?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Well, I think certain groups are.
So I think psychiatrists arebecoming more and more giving
medicine.
They're getting more into themedical verse.
Used to be.
Psychiatrists were greattherapists.
Some of the best therapists inhistory were psychiatrists.
You know Jung Freud, you knowthey were great therapists.
Some of the best therapists inhistory were psychiatrists.
(48:04):
You know Jung Freud, you knowthey were great.
So now I think psychology,social work, clinical coaching
they're more and more comingtogether.
More and more of us therapistsare getting coaching training
and more coaches are gettingtherapy training.
So we're kind of seeing theskills of sometimes you want to
(48:26):
be very practical help peoplewith a particular problem.
They've identified a problem.
We're going to solve thatproblem.
Some people are here for morehow to understand their life and
how to help explore what theproblems are in there that's
holding them back, that they maynot be able to describe.
So I think that's all kind ofcoming together.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Let's get out the crystal ball and in.
In 10 years, what do you thinktherapy will look like?
Like psychology?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Psychics.
What do you think therapy will?
Speaker 1 (49:05):
look like like psychology, psychics.
The crystal ball is thedifference.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yeah, well I think it's going to continue to get
two-tiered, that people whocan't afford it are going to get
the agency six sessions, takemedicine and we're done.
I mean it's going to be andthen people who have money are
(49:31):
going to have better health careand better mental health care.
I think that's the sad thing.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
That's terrible and tragic.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
You know, the only thing we can try to help do is
add, get people to be aware andvote for what they need yeah,
100 um.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
And this again we talked a little bit about, you
know, like doing a new businessstarter kit and all these like
these, these amazing things thatcould happen If you could
redesign one part of thepsychology field, whether it be
licensing, education or even,you know, delivery.
(50:13):
What do you think it would be?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Okay, what holds me back is the threat of being sued
.
So there are many horrorstories of someone who's decided
they don't like the therapistand they, you know, put in a
complaint and it can ruin thetherapist's life.
(50:41):
So so much of what I having alicense.
Even though they say itprotects you, it also doesn't
protect you.
So you know, I have to thinkabout is this person who wants
treatment going to be the kindof person that I can trust and
(51:05):
worrying about that?
And so there, you know thatthat you hate to have to make
that kind of be thinking aboutthat, yeah, or mine, oh my God,
from what you were saying islike, oh my God, I'm going to be
sued.
I don't have any of those kindof things in place that you're
talking about.
You know, like it'soverwhelming.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
So I think that's the biggest concern I have in my
field.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
That's crazy, like I mean you're out here trying to
help people and you know, justbecause you're out here helping
people, I mean usually that'srooted right.
You think about nurses, youthink about doctors, you think
about therapists, right, likeyou're all mission driven to
help people have a better life,to live a safer life or, you
know, to to be healthy orwhatever it is Like you know
(51:55):
there should be adequateprotections in place for people
like you where you can focus on,you know, patient satisfaction.
Yeah, you know, like if you know, god forbid, you know a surgeon
cuts off the wrong leg.
We actually had somebody thatthat, that talked about that on
one of our other podcastepisodes and he, you know, made
(52:17):
a medical robots, you know, andwe were talking about he was
talking about some type of theway that it drills through parts
of the skull and you know thereused to be a like.
There's a very small margin oferror, because if you hit a
nerve here, like, you'reparalyzed for like the rest of
(52:38):
your life and you, so you haveone thing and they made some
type of technology where youknow you can I don't know what,
it very complicated, but you cansee where that nerve is on the
patient.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
So you can go around it which is crazy.
It is yeah, and you know aswe're talking, you also want to
make sure that bad treatment.
You know as we're talking, youalso want to make sure that bad
treatment.
You know people don't get badtreatment.
They'll get the long leg takenoff or traumatized with their
therapist because they did a badjob.
I mean, again, there are somany things we're trying to
(53:13):
balance here about having goodtreatment and you know how do
you and, of course course,what's the difference of bad
treatment, and sometimes peoplemake mistakes that sure yeah
aren't on purpose but are stillcould be devastating.
I mean there's right we go from.
There's black and white,there's so much gray yeah, I got
(53:37):
two more questions for you.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
This has been a crazy fun episode.
It's been great to talk withyou too, or I mean you talked
about dealing with.
(53:59):
You know even the educationalspace of dealing with students
and up and coming entrepreneursand things of that.
How do you feel likepsychologists can better
collaborate with otherdisciplines in the future?
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Well, it would be really nice if we had some kind
of a space, you know, an onlinespace, where we could safely,
could, could, can, could connectwith each other.
That would because you know wehave to we end up leaving
messages for physicians tryingto get let them know that we've
seen their patient or give themsome update.
(54:35):
It's always hard becauseeverybody's so busy trying to
find some kind of a space thatwe could all connect with each
other yeah, yeah, I mean thatwould be kind of like linkedin,
but for just doctors, yeah,where there's no spam and no bs.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Um, so we we talked a lot about, you know,
entrepreneurship.
I feel like we talked about,you know, starting a business,
growing a business.
You know licensing.
I mean therapy, I meanpsychology.
I mean we've touched on a lotUm, what role do you feel like
(55:18):
psychology will play in solvingyou know, bigger global
challenges?
And something that comes tomind is, like you know there's
people that I mean, dare I sayit are deranged in this modern
world, but also you have a lotof anxiety in this world.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
You also have a lot of loneliness.
Well, I think it's all aboutthe nervous system.
I think you've got to go backto the body.
You have to help peoplerecognize when they're in that
sympathetic part of our nervoussystem which is fight or flight.
You have to help them recognizehow to shift into a
parasympathetic state and it's.
I think it's all about that andhow you co-regulate.
(56:02):
So you know you co-regulate.
I can help regulate somebody ifI'm in a good spot, or my
animals.
I have my standard poodles whoare part of my practice, you
know, petting the animals,working with the horses.
There's ways that we helpco-regulate each other and I
(56:23):
think that's how we're going tohave to help people.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
That is an absolute epic, epic response.
I can't thank you enough forspending so much of your time
with us.
I feel like I got a freetherapy lesson out of this.
So much of your time with us.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
I feel like I got a free therapy lesson out of this
Blake it's been great talking toyou.
Thanks, and I'm so sorry Imissed the first time we had.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
No, you made up for it this time.
No, of course you made up forit this time.
Let people know where they canfind you, how they can connect
with you, you know, let themknow.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
So there are two different websites that's Relate
Center in Austin, Texas.
That's relatecentercom, orbeyondboundariescoachingnet,
which is a bummer.
That it's net Sarah.
It's Sarah at Relate Center.
(57:23):
It's the easiest way to go andI'd love to hear from anyone
who'd be interested in eitherjust talking more about this or
coming in for some work.
Speaker 1 (57:30):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
We'll make sure to leave.
And our podcast yeah, we have apodcast on Beyond Boundaries
Coaching.
You can find us on Apple on allthe major podcasting services.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
We will certainly in our show notes here link
everything where you can findSarah.
Thank, you, everybody, she.
This was a fun one.
This was a fun one.
Again.
I can't thank you for spendingso much time with us sharing
your you know your opinion onpsychology.
I mean, we talked a lot aboutentrepreneurship and I mean you
(58:06):
know the future of therapy.
Speaker 2 (58:15):
Thank you so much, thanks for you Great to talk
with and good luck and I can'twait to hear it.
Yeah, podcast, it sounds reallyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
It'll be out before you know it.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Bye.
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