March 5, 2024 • 50 mins
Join me, Jerry Dean Lund, as I sit down with Brooke Bartlett, an esteemed clinical psychologist with an unwavering commitment to the mental health of our first responders and military heroes. Brooke's expertise shines as we tackle the stigma that clouds the judgment of those in dire need of psychological support, and how dispelling these myths can create a pathway to healing. In a candid conversation, we reveal the nuances of selecting a mental health provider with the right cultural insight, likening the process to a search for a compatible partner, and the transformative power of neuroplasticity in the journey to recovery from trauma.
This episode is a deep exploration of the unique challenges first responders face, and how the strength of shared experiences and open communication can alleviate the burdens carried by these brave individuals. We bring to light the idea that trauma is profoundly personal, with no two individuals experiencing it the same way, and underscore the importance of embracing evidence-based treatments that harness the brain's natural ability to adapt and heal. Simultaneously, we stress the significance of integrating simple, yet effective self-care practices into daily life, ensuring that these unsung heroes can build resilience and maintain their mental well-being amidst the demands of their critical roles.
We wrap up with actionable advice and reassurance for our first responder listeners, emphasizing that they're not navigating their struggles in isolation. By highlighting practical self-care techniques and the necessity of seeking help, we aim to empower our audience to acknowledge and address their mental health needs proactively. For those eager to continue the dialogue or seeking further support, Brooke Bartlett offers a hand of guidance, underscoring our shared dedication to the well-being of those who so selflessly serve our communities.
As a First Responder, you are critical in keeping our communities safe. However, the stress and trauma of the job can take a toll on your mental health and family life.
If you're interested in personal coaching, contact Jerry Lund at 801-376-7124. Let's work together to get you where you want to be and ensure a happy and healthy career.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jerry (00:02):
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
Podcast.
I'm host Jerry Dean Lund and ifyou haven't already done so,
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(00:24):
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So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isBrooke Bartlett.
How you doing, brooke?
Brooke (00:44):
Hey, I'm doing well, Thank you.
Jerry (00:46):
Good Brooke, can you introduce yourself to the
audience?
Brooke (00:49):
Yeah, I am a licensed clinical psychologist based out
of San Diego and I am aspecialized psychologist
specifically with firstresponders and military and
their loved ones.
Jerry (01:04):
I've got to ask how'd you get into this field?
Brooke (01:06):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So, okay, let's just go all theway back, right?
Jerry (01:12):
Let's do it yes.
Brooke (01:14):
So growing up in my childhood always very, very much
fascinated by trauma and likereally drawn towards trauma.
I know it sounds worrisome, butyeah, always was like.
The books I read as anine-year-old was like Ken Burns
, vietnam War right, I wasalways just getting like
nonfiction books reading them,always really drawn to it.
(01:37):
I had a couple of familymembers in the military.
I'm very patriotic, verythankful for the people who
sacrifice not only their livesbut also I always say that the
sacrifice of their mind.
Jerry (01:47):
As well as what they do.
Brooke (01:51):
And so I decided I wanted to become a psychologist
and specialize in working withmilitary.
So I had started on the road ittakes about 12 to 15 years to
become a psychologist andstarted working at the National
Center for PTSD doing mypredoctoral research for a few
years.
So that's in Boston, at the VAthere, and so it was tracking to
(02:13):
become a military psychologist.
And then when I started my PhD,we had just made a connection
with one of the largest firedepartments in the country and
police departments in thecountry and immediately hit the
ground running working withfirst responders.
So both on the research side soI have a very heavy research
(02:33):
background but also in theclinical, like in-person side,
and I immediately fell in lovewith working with first
responders, immediately realizedthat there was a lot of overlap
between first responders andmilitary, both in terms of their
culture and in terms of thestruggles that they faced, and
decided I'm just going tocontinue to ride this train and
(02:56):
spent all seven years of mydoctoral training working with
first responders.
Again on the research side, Iwas on call 24-7.
I had a therapy office seeingfirst responders and their
family members.
I was there for everythingfunerals, promotions, etc.
And yeah, that's how that cameto be.
Jerry (03:16):
And now you have your own private practice after all that
.
Brooke (03:20):
Correct, yeah.
So I knew that once I.
So to become a psychologisttakes about five years of
training and schooling and thenyou have to do a full year of
internship, which was basicallyfull-time job, working in like
in my case I was working at a VAhospital and then you have to
do anywhere from one to threeyears of fellowship.
So after you get the PhD,before you get licensed, you
(03:42):
have to do one to three moreyears of full-time fellowship.
And so I knew that once I wasdone with all that and I got
licensed, that I wanted to openup my own business.
So, yeah, I have a therapypractice where I see first
responders or loved ones,military, and a big part of what
I do is on the consultationside.
(04:03):
So I help agencies, publicsafety agencies across the
country with their wellnessprogramming.
So I get brought in a lot to doeducational seminars on
different types of mental healthtopics like post-traumatic
stress and anxiety and moralinjury.
I also get brought in to helpbuild peer support programs,
(04:24):
help supervise peer supporters,consult on policies, things like
that.
So I really, really, really,really love it.
Jerry (04:34):
You must, because that is an incredible amount of
dedication and time to put intogetting one to where you are
today.
Brooke (04:42):
Yeah, it's a long.
It's a long.
I was very burnt out.
I'm not going to lie about that.
Jerry (04:48):
So I bet.
I bet I appreciate yourdedication and thank you for
having that dedication so youcan help first responders.
I have the best life.
I think that's what I try.
To teach people on the podcastor have guests kind of bring out
is just like this is a job,this is a career and we're very
passionate about it.
(05:08):
Sometimes it becomes who we are, unfortunately, which is, I
think, is not a good thing.
We need to be better at that.
So we're going to explore somethings today that Brooke and I
kind of just bounce around alittle bit before we jumped on
here, and one of them I'm justgoing to start right into it I'm
broken, brooke.
Brooke (05:29):
I'm broken, yeah okay, please go on yeah.
Jerry (05:35):
First.
You know, too often firstresponders get told they feel
like they're broken and thenthey find somebody that will
kind of just maybe feed intothat and say, yeah, you are
broken.
Like yeah, what do you thinkabout?
Brooke (05:51):
that it's an unfortunate , unfortunate misconception,
right yeah, when we get to thepoint where we're really
struggling whether it be posttraumatic stress, anxiety,
substance abuse, whatever it isthat at that point that means
that we are broken in apermanent way, like there's no
going back, there's no fixingthis, that this is almost just
(06:14):
like our.
This is who we are now in ourpermanent state, and that's a
very unfortunate misconceptionfor many reasons.
It keeps a lot of people fromeven seeking help, because it's
almost kind of what we calllearned helplessness, like
what's the point?
Jerry (06:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Brooke (06:32):
But it also is very stigmatizing as well.
Right, it can be verystigmatizing, and, as we know,
in the first responder culture,stigma is probably the biggest
roadblock for people seekinghelp, and so that couldn't be
further from the truth.
In terms of any type of mentalhealth issue that someone is
(06:53):
experiencing or struggling with.
These are things that can beaddressed and that can resolve.
They don't just happen on theirown, though.
Jerry (07:03):
Right, right, right.
You got to invest time intohealing yourself.
Brooke (07:10):
Absolutely.
I mean, I always I like I'm abig per, I love analogies.
Okay, so I'm always usinganalogies and I love to use
analogies like, compared to likephysical things, because I
think that we're we findphysical injuries or physical
illnesses and diseases more realright, and mental health it's
always like I don't know likeright.
(07:31):
We don't really believe in itas much, so to speak.
But physical health and mentalhealth go hand in hand.
Mental health is physicalhealth, but I like to use the
example of like.
I broke my knee about 10 yearsago, cracked it in half.
I was living in Boston, slippedon ice.
It wasn't a cool story, I wasjust walking to the VA to go to
my job and slipped.
(07:51):
So when I broke my knee, if Ihad just not done anything about
it probably definitely wouldn'thave healed properly, right?
Maybe like the bone would havelike tried to kind of refuse
itself in some way, but I'ddefinitely be walking with the
gate, wouldn't be able tophysically move the way I
(08:13):
normally could.
So I had to get it fixed right.
I had to get my knee fixed andthen it took about a year of
physical therapy and rehabbing.
I had to go to physical therapytwice a week and of course I
had to be doing my littleexercises and things in between,
right To build, to repair andthen rebuild my knee and my leg,
(08:34):
which at the time was veryatrophied, to get back to where
I was.
And it's the same thing whenwe're talking about mental
health, like it doesn't justhappen on its own, like no, you
can't just like cross yourfingers and hope for the best.
And honestly I tell people too,you know, if you're just kind
of going through the motions,like okay, I went to a therapy
session here and there and I'mgoing through the motions, but
(08:55):
I'm not really taking that andapplying it outside of the
therapy office, there might notbe much progress either.
Jerry (09:05):
There's.
Brooke (09:05):
I tell my therapy clients you know there's a.
They're with me one hour a weekand there's the math 12 times
seven, like 160 hours in theweek, right?
So most of the work thatthey're doing is outside of our
sessions together.
Right, there's things that weneed to be doing to start to
mend, heal and rebuild ourmental health.
(09:27):
So it's the same thing asphysical health.
We just can't see it the sameway that we do with a physical
injury.
Jerry (09:36):
And would you say that, like people experience, like you
know how, a physical injury,people no-transcript, still
things differently, right, andwith a, we'll call it I don't
know how to properly word thislike a mental health injury,
like just the same as the kindof analogy.
You know they look differentfor different people, right,
(09:57):
they're not all the same.
Just because I break my arm,you know it's not always, you
know it doesn't.
Everybody doesn't break theirarm the same way or heal the
same way.
Brooke (10:05):
No, no, exactly.
Yeah, you're exactly right.
I mean, you got to think aboutthe I called them predisposing
and post-disposing factors.
But yeah, the injury is not thesame for every single person.
I have a.
I was an athlete before all,before my my other life of
becoming a psychologist, I was acompetitive athlete, a D1
athlete.
I had a lot of preexistinginjuries already, one in my hip
(10:29):
and you know so that impacted myknee break differently.
I think it's why I had to go toyou know, do the physical rehab
for an extended period of time.
But yeah, there's all thesedifferent factors that go into
it.
So it's not, it's not a, it'snot a clear cut thing.
The two people can have apost-traumatic stress injury and
, yes, they, they experiencesimilar symptoms and everything,
(10:51):
but they're they're not exactlythe same, right, and and every
unique, every individual isunique in terms of what their
treatment plan looks like andwhat their recovery looks like.
Jerry (11:02):
Yeah, and that's probably kind of a fascinating part for
your job is to to figure out the, the unique way to get them on
the right track of feelingbetter and healing themselves.
Brooke (11:13):
Yeah, it is.
It's really interesting becausethroughout all my my my
pre-doctoral training and mydoctoral training, you know like
I trained in three of thebiggest VA's in the country.
You know, working in differentpublic safety agencies, there's
a big emphasis on like reallysticking to the protocol,
(11:33):
meaning I use evidence-basedtreatment, which means
treatments that have beenscientifically proven to be
effective in treating, let's say, post-traumatic stress.
You know, as you kind of go onand become more independent and
start practicing on your own,you know everyone's different,
so I use the same evidence-basedapproaches and treatments for
(11:56):
people, but you have to adapt itto the unique individual.
It's not a cookie cutter typeof process, and so that is a big
part of what I do in.
In working with each individualthat I work with is we need to
see how this fits for youspecifically, right?
What does this look like foryou?
And I always tell my therapyclients and I wholeheartedly
(12:19):
mean it like I can't do my jobwithout you.
In fact, I am useless withoutyou, right?
Jerry (12:26):
Yeah.
Brooke (12:27):
I'm the expert in post-traumatic stress, but
you're the expert in you Like,so we're, we're a team Like.
We work through this together.
Jerry (12:37):
Do you feel that first responders are willing to put
the work in to help healingthemselves, or do you feel like
maybe part of it is just likethis is part of our job is just
to suffer through this stuff?
Brooke (12:52):
You know I don't want to make a blanketed statement.
Sure, first responders are lesslikely to seek help, and I
think that's one of the reasonswhy, right, I am the helper, I
am the life saver, I am theproblem solver.
I don't need to get help myself, right?
And then again, the stigma.
I mean it is highly stigmatizedto show any what they perceive
(13:15):
as weakness.
Right, and weakness is anyissue that I'm experiencing
being bothered by that call, notbeing able to get that call out
of my head, suffering, you know, starting to have more conflict
at home with my wife becauseXYZ, right, all these things
that so many first respondersexperience but yet, you know,
suffer in silence from, becauseof the fear of being open about
(13:39):
any of these things, because ofthat, just massive stigma.
Jerry (13:43):
What do you think about vulnerability and the power in
that?
Brooke (13:48):
Vulnerability is very important.
I mean vulnerability if we'retalking about in the therapy
room and the therapeutic process.
It's, it's.
I'm just this is my personalopinion it's a requirement to
have the actual results that youwant.
Now that does not mean that youhave your first session.
Let's say with me and like,yeah, I'm expecting you to just
(14:09):
open yourself up and be fullyvulnerable.
That's not the way it works.
It takes time to build arelationship and build that
rapport.
But vulnerability in the factof, ok, I do need help.
This is something you know.
It's gone on long enough.
It's starting to affect my lifein a lot of different ways that
I don't want it to, and youknow I'm.
(14:29):
I'm vulnerable and open in thesense of to seeing how I might
be able to get this address.
Jerry (14:36):
Yeah, I mean, if you're hiding something or not fully
trusting the person you're withor don't feel like they're
culturally competent, they don'tunderstand you.
You kind of just like you said,kind of like just going through
the process but you're notgoing to really benefit a lot
from it.
Brooke (14:52):
Yeah, and, but it's equally as important to find
someone.
That again, one of the most, ifnot the most, important thing
this is supported by theresearch is that the the the
most dominant factor in positiveoutcomes and treatment right
prognosis, so to speak israpport, the relationship that
(15:12):
you have with your providerright, and so the most important
thing is that you feelcomfortable with your provider
and not everyone's a fit foreveryone, right.
Someone could be there could bea psychologist out there who's
just so incredibly good at X, y,z, right they're, they're an
OCD specialist, but theirpersonality and approach might
not be the best fit for JohnSmith, right, that's OK, but so,
(15:37):
but it's so important to findthat fit and in the first
responder world, to really findsomeone who's culturally
competent, right.
And I tell my first responders,like grill, the person that
you're considering working with,Like you get free, free
consultation, called beforehandwith a therapist, like ask in
their background, if they saythey're culturally competent,
(15:57):
ask them how, like, what makesyou culturally competent?
What's your background?
What experience do you have?
What training do you have?
Right, All these differentthings to really assess that
cultural competency as well.
Jerry (16:08):
Yeah, I've spoken to a lot of first responders and
they've gone to one visit andthey're like it didn't go as
planned or the way they wantedit to and they didn't.
They didn't like the personthey were meeting with and
they're like oh, I tried, I'mdone, yes, I'm like no, no, this
is like dating.
You like you got to like seeksome different other people.
(16:29):
Don't just, don't just give up,because you've already taken a
really big step.
You know to go seek help, sodon't, don't stop now.
Brooke (16:38):
Yeah, yeah, 100 percent, and I hear that all the time
too, and it's, it's unfortunate,it's like, oh, I tried, or you
know, I've had, I've worked,I've worked with first
responders who told me that likeabout like their first
experience going to someone andit was like a really bad one,
like someone who is clearly notequipped or culturally competent
and I don't blame like that.
That's a really shittyexperience, right, yeah.
(16:59):
And it doesn't mean like thatdoesn't mean OK, well, I tried
and I'm done.
And I hear a lot of firstresponders like you know well,
that just means I'm stuck likethis forever, Like I'm never
going to get the help I need,Like there's no one that can
help me, and that also is is nottrue.
Like it take, like said ittakes time.
Like shop around, shop around,I shop around, I had to shop
(17:19):
around for for the psychologist,I see, you know, and and hey,
if you find one that you likeright away, awesome.
But just because you don't finda fit right away doesn't mean
that there's no fit out there.
Jerry (17:32):
Yeah, I have this.
I've had this thought since wefirst talked a little while back
and around, like firstresponders, like around their,
their teams right, that theywork with and stuff like that.
I was thinking do you thinksome of them like marry each
other's problems?
Is that, does that make sense?
Brooke (17:51):
Can.
Can you go a little bit moreinto like what you mean by that?
Jerry (17:54):
I just feel like sometimes, like they like
someone in the group has anissue and it starts kind of
manifesting, then all of asudden other people start kind
of like marrying that same same.
They're starting to have thosesame problems too.
Brooke (18:09):
Yeah, I mean, you know the sociological phenomenon of
observational learning, right?
I mean, that's wherebehaviorally wired to do that.
But I would also say that Ithink they start mirroring a lot
of each other's problemsbecause they're all experiencing
the similar circumstances thatare affecting them the same way,
(18:31):
and that also might be whythey're kind of it seems to be
almost like a I don't know itsounds like a bad word, but like
contagion.
Jerry (18:38):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I did see some of thatthroughout my career.
I mean, sometimes that's justpeople just opening up and
starting to break open, and thenother people have had these
same feelings that they now feellike they can share.
Brooke (18:53):
Yeah, yeah, the trickle down effect.
I mean, it will never cease toamaze me when I always, when I
give, like training seminars,presentations, you know, to
different agencies, whether I'mgiving giving one on
post-traumatic stress or moralinjury or anxiety or whatever it
is One of my tips is alwaystalk, talk to people, talk to
(19:17):
people you trust, right, and itdoesn't mean to open up and talk
about your deepest, darkestsecrets or struggles, but like
just the act of saying man, thatcall really sucked for me.
I'm, I'm, I'm all messed up inthe head from that call that's.
That is like we'll start tokind of have that like pinball
effect and the I can see thatpeople kind of are more
(19:40):
comfortable.
Yeah, bothering me too, like I,I didn't sleep well last couple
of nights.
Right, I mean it just opens upthe floodgates as opposed to
just stoic or good, we're justgoing to keep going.
Jerry (19:52):
Right, right I was.
I was thinking about some likemy crew members in the past and
going through some of thedifficult incidents and
difficult incidents affecteverybody differently.
Once again, like some peoplelike I'm okay and then some
people are, are bothered.
And then those some people thatare okay Sometimes like why is
(20:13):
that bothering you?
I don't understand, I don't.
I don't get why.
This doesn't seem to be like anothing kind of call to me.
I don't get it.
Brooke (20:21):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's a big part of what Italk about when I do my trauma
trainings is that we allexperience trauma differently.
No two people experience traumathe exact same way.
Yeah, not your best friend, notyou and your best friend, who's
also your crew member.
No two people experience traumathe exact same way, and that's
(20:41):
something that I hear so many ofmy first responders when they
come to see me for therapy isthey'll be like something wrong
with me, doc, like I don't know.
Everyone else is my crew sawthis, you know respond to that
same call, but there's somethingwrong with me, like I just
can't shake it.
Like what's wrong with me?
Right, we all respond to traumadifferently.
We all have differentexperiences, backgrounds,
beliefs, all these differentthings and post disposing
(21:03):
factors, what I call them.
Like we go home to differentcircumstances, we do different
things to cope, we havedifferent lifestyles, right, all
these things play into how weexperience that.
Jerry (21:13):
Yeah, how do you right?
Our brains are made upcompletely different, right you
should?
For the most part, I maybethat's not the right way to put
it.
Maybe the neural pathways are alittle bit different in each
one of our brains.
Would that be fair to say?
Brooke (21:27):
Yeah, oh, absolutely.
None of us have the exact samebrain.
Jerry (21:30):
And when it comes to like these PTSD or PTSD, you know,
type injuries what's a good wayto start going about?
Try to like, maybe heal some ofthese things.
Brooke (21:45):
Yeah, so the here's the good thing.
We were talking about thebroken type thing, right, the
broken type misconception andthat, like my issue, is
permanent type thing.
That's not true, because we areall born with a superpower and
it's called neuroplasticity.
Have you ever heard of that?
Jerry (22:05):
I have, I love it.
I love brain science.
Brooke (22:08):
Brain stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
So whether we're talking abouta post traumatic stress injury,
or we're talking about someonesuffering from depression or
anxiety or whatever it is, ourbrain is literally designed to
change.
It's malleable, right, and thatdoesn't stop as we age, like
(22:28):
back in the day, before all thescience, technology came out and
we, you know, could examinethese things.
We as if I'm not aneuroscientist, but you know
that that neuroscientist couldexamine these things they
thought, okay, we must, you know, we stop learning at it like
there's some kind of all right,you're this age and your brain,
just you know what you got iswhat you got.
(22:50):
But that's not the case.
So in any type of any time, anytime someone is trying to
address a mental health issuelike post traumatic stress, you
have to engage in evidence basedtreatment.
And that treatment is evidencebased because there's scientific
(23:10):
things that have been proven torewire your physiological body
right Physiologically.
You know your HPA access andyour brain.
Our brains can rewire theirneural connections to then fire
in a different way.
But, as we were saying earlier,this doesn't just happen on its
own.
Jerry (23:32):
Can I do it on my own?
Brooke (23:34):
We can do it on our own.
Well, you need help andassistance.
Yes, then you can do it on yourown.
You need a direction.
For example, if I'm going backto my physical therapy example
like they weren't having me doany groundbreaking exercises to
rebuild my knee and my leg.
But I need a direction onexactly what this looks like.
(23:56):
What are the exact exercises todo?
How many times do I do them?
Then I could go and do them onmy own and it's no different in
this case Neuroplasticity.
There's two different types ofneuroplasticity.
We call it structural andthat's where we can actually
build up and regain strength incertain neural connections and
(24:19):
then prune away the weak ones.
That's synaptic pruning, whichprune away the weak ones.
There's a functional aspect ofneuroplasticity in cases where
someone who has actual braindamage say traumatic brain
injury of some sort, a veteranwho was near an IAD and got
knocked out at the time, orindividuals who suffered a
(24:40):
stroke, where if there's a partof the brain that is damaged and
that can't function because ofthat, actually blunt force
trauma, so to speak thatdifferent parts of the brain are
able to build up their strengthto try and make up for the lost
strength in that area of thebrain.
It's really incredible what ourbrain can do.
Jerry (25:00):
Yeah, it really is.
I think we're like you'resaying I don't think the new
science is quite getting outthere yet on what our brains can
do, and they're prettymagnificent things that it can
do with help.
I mean, you can rewire somethings on your own, I feel like,
but you're going to have tomaybe find a good book to help
(25:22):
you do that, or different thingslike that.
Brooke (25:25):
Yes, I agree.
So it all depends on what theperson where the person is at,
so I can never just give ablanketed answer.
I have a lot of people come andbe like, okay, how do I fix
this?
It really depends Someone whohas a full diagnosis of
post-traumatic stress disorder,which that means they have
clinically significant symptoms.
(25:45):
They're severe, they're notgoing away, they are causing
significant impairment inmultiple areas of their life.
Once they reach past thatthreshold, then it's more than
what can I just do on my own.
You need professional help tohelp you get there.
Now we all struggle withdifferent things and experience
different things.
If someone's level of severityor their issue or issues that
(26:08):
they're experiencing are notpast that threshold, then, yeah,
there's certain things we canjust do on our own.
A lot of the tips I give arejust small little things to do
on your own, Like you even said,reading a book, learning about
these things and practicing someof these things that you learn,
Keeping up your mental healthjust as we would our physical
health.
I think it's really importantfor people to understand that
(26:30):
too.
It's not always not everythingthat you're dealing with, or
even if you're trying to beproactive and just build
strength mentally.
Mental health strength doesn'talways require that you go see a
professional, but once someonepasses to a certain threshold,
doing these things on your ownwill probably not end with it
(26:53):
being resolved.
Jerry (26:54):
Yeah, I think that's very , very fair to say.
Mm-hmm, as far as firstresponders go, what do you like
being proactive?
Do you feel like they areproactive or are reactive?
Because most of that type ofjob is reactive.
Not a lot of proactive stuffgoes into it, so I just feel
(27:15):
like it kind of carries overinto our personal lives 100%.
Brooke (27:19):
I would say again, generally speaking no, I don't
feel like first responders areproactive, and I think there's a
few different things that gointo that.
I feel like in my experience,more often than not, someone
waits until shit hits the fanand then it's like oh no, I got
to do something about this.
(27:39):
And at that point, that's whenthis issue, or these issues are
starting to get in I'm going tokeep saying it causing
significant impairment insomeone's life.
Consistently, I'm not able toperform my job as well.
My wife and I are nearing adivorce, my physical health is
deteriorating.
I haven't been sleeping formonths, all these different
(28:02):
areas where it's having thatimpairment.
And then they're like OK, maybeI need to do something about
this, but a lot of the work I doin wellness program with
agencies is we need to build upthe proactive side of things,
and what proactive means?
There's two.
I think of it as three lines ofdefense.
The third line of defense isthe reactionary, that basically
(28:24):
crisis or like the shit has hitthe fan, crisis.
We got to intervene and helpthis person because they're not
doing well.
That's very necessary.
We always need thosereactionary things in place and,
just as important, we need toemphasize the proactive, which
is the first line of defense.
Keeping healthy people healthy.
(28:45):
That's the best scenario rightthere, right.
Jerry (28:50):
Yeah, I totally agree.
Brooke (28:53):
Yeah, the way we keep ourselves healthy is to engage
in behaviors, activities,whatever you want to call it,
that keep us healthy.
I mean, again, if we're justtalking about our diet or things
like that, if we stay healthyphysically, like that, generally
(29:15):
speaking, we have a habit ofeating well and, yeah, maybe we
go throw down a few beers and aburger and some fries on a
Saturday.
It doesn't mean we have toadhere to it perfectly, but we
have a behavioral pattern ofdoing that, and that's what we
want to emphasize on the mentalhealth side.
The best case scenarios I getbrought into an agency and
(29:38):
someone's like yeah, I'm doinggreat, awesome, let's keep it
that way, what are you doingthat's working, and what are
things that you can proactivelydo to prevent potentially
getting to that other side?
Right, that's the first line ofdefense, and the second line of
defense is early intervention,and what that basically means is
we all get to the point wherewe are at the second stage,
(30:00):
where things aren't going sowell, like, yeah, we're still
functioning, there's nosignificant issues, we're not
having major problems that areconsistent or anything like that
, but we're not feelingourselves, we're having trouble
in this area, we're doing that,and then that's the area where
we want to be able to interveneand do things to prevent that
(30:22):
snowball from continuing to roll.
Those first two lines of defenseare so important and I think we
all kind of forget about themsometimes and we wait until it
gets to that third line and thenwe're like, oh no, this sucks.
I guess I have to do somethingabout this.
Jerry (30:42):
Yeah, you think between that second line of defense and
the third line is there a lot ofaddiction that kind of takes
place, or where is that?
Because I know the dictionaryin first responder to different
things is fairly high.
Brooke (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's a tough question.
So substance misuse and abusein first responders is extremely
high.
I've done a lot of research onit.
I mean at least a third, andthis is under-reporting, by the
way.
But at least a third, one out ofthree first responders misuse
(31:17):
substances.
There's different types of.
I like to kind of when we'retalking about addiction versus
substance abuse, versussubstance misuse.
Substance abuse is not alwayssomeone that is drinking, let's
say, all the time, right, likethe frequency of their drinking.
Now, of course, if someone isdrinking all the time, yeah,
(31:40):
that would be constitute anaddiction.
But what I see often in myfirefighters is that they do two
things.
They utilize, let's say, alcoholto calm down their arousal
system, their fight or flightsystem after shifts to try and
(32:00):
sleep.
They're using it in ways to tryand cope with some of these
things and that's maybe in themoment it helps, but in the long
term it starts to cause moreissues.
But then I also see a lot offirst responders that it's this
is what I call them, it's the gobig or go home kind of first
responder, where they don'treally drink that frequently,
(32:21):
but they're known that when theydo drink they go big or go home
.
Right, they blast it out of thepark and even if it's just once
a month, let's say that theydrink, that when they do they
get so drunk.
It always leads to some kind ofproblem they pick a fight with
their wife when they get home,or they start a fight at the bar
or something.
(32:42):
They can't wake up the nextmorning and show up to shift, or
they show up to shift kind ofdrunk, right, all these
different things that like, yep,that's oh great, so-and-so is
going to be drinking tonight.
We know how that's going to goright.
That's the other common type ofsubstance abuse that I see
among first responders.
Jerry (33:01):
Sorry, I chuckle a little bit when you're giving those
explanations and examples,because like, yeah, but I've
seen that before.
I'm not saying I'm perfect, byany means yeah yeah, images
popping up in my head, yeah,yeah.
What can advice can you give tosome of the first responders
(33:21):
listening to maybe make thatturn either to start self-care
or maybe seek some help.
Brooke (33:29):
Yeah, in terms of self-care, I really like to
emphasize that it is the littlethings that make the biggest
difference.
The little things Like whenagain, when I'm giving tips or
you know how to approach this,I'm not saying anything
groundbreaking, right.
But to utilize that superpowerof neuroplasticity right, it
(33:53):
takes intentionality, right.
We can't just be like, oh okay,I guess I did something good
for me because that justhappened, like I didn't intend
to do that but it worked, right.
So, intentionality, consistencyand repetition right.
Find the little things thatwork for you.
I could throw out 10 differentthings right now that are
scientifically proven to help.
Maybe that helped me, but itdoesn't mean all 10 are going to
(34:15):
help you.
So I always like to tell myfirst sponsors in terms of
self-care, being proactive isspending time doing the little
things.
The little things go a long ways, right.
So, if it's spending fourminutes in the morning listening
to your favorite guided imageryaudio, right, do that right.
(34:39):
If it's writing down threethings at the start of your day,
what you intend to do that dayare things that you're grateful
for, right, do that right.
Try a bunch of different littlethings that, added up, really
help in the long term and stickwith them.
Right Again, if I'm going tobring it back to the physical
side of things, like if Istopped doing and I did this if
(35:03):
I stopped doing the littlethings during the day that were
rebuilding my injury, all of asudden my injury started to hurt
more again.
Right, and so we have toconsistently do these things and
make it almost part of ourroutine, so to speak, not
meaning we do it the same timeevery day or the same exact
thing every day, but reallypaying attention to all these
little things that we can do tokeep ourselves as healthy as
(35:26):
possible, and not only does itmake us feel better at the time,
but it also you know, the wordresilience is very popular right
now- but, what it does is itmakes us more likely to be able
to prevent, you know, worsenedissues from forming.
It makes us, in that way, right,we're starting off on a
(35:48):
stronger foot.
That doesn't mean that we can'texperience issues and struggles
, right With these things.
It just gives us a strongerfooting to be able to handle it
if and when that does happen.
Jerry (36:00):
Yeah, I was teaching a few years back.
In one of the classes I wasteaching, I put together like a
menu of like self-help, liketype things like here are the
things you can do.
Just look at all the differentthings you could do for yourself
.
But as caregivers I feel likethey just don't, they don't want
(36:20):
to take the time to do thattype of thing.
They get stuck in these, in theroutines of whether they're
good or bad Most of them are,you know, they get stuck in
these routines and they don'tdeviate from them.
Brooke (36:29):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think, too is anotherunfortunate misconception is
that, in order to make thechange that I'm hoping for, it's
going to have to be these bigthings.
Right, like I don't have thetime or the energy to make all
these big life changes, andthat's what you don't need to
(36:49):
make these big life changes,it's just the littlest things.
So, yeah, doing some type of aguided imagery, progressive
muscle relaxation.
Some people like to write down,not like a diary, but whatever
you want to call it like writedown certain things to the day,
having a board where they writedown three things they're
grateful for at the start of theday, reading 10 pages out of
(37:10):
their book a day.
You know, whatever it is thatworks for you is doing these
things and doing themconsistently and finding what
works for you, right.
And then they give you 50different things to potentially
try that help with all thesedifferent things.
But it's up to the person totest them out.
And if you try journaling,you're like this is dumb, like
this does nothing for me Great,you tried it, you know it
(37:32):
doesn't work for you.
Try something else, right?
Jerry (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, you know, people are struggling like with
their physical health and thenthey want help like getting
started and stuff like that.
And it's like, you know, okay,let's start with a walk, a short
walk, and then, as they startdoing that right, they start
feeling like maybe there's afive minute walk and then I'm
going to go a minute longertoday and I'm going to because
I'm starting to see and feel thebenefits of walking.
(37:56):
It's same things with theseother things for your mental
health.
Brooke (38:00):
Oh, 100%.
They're reinforced, right,positively reinforced when you
start seeing the benefits ofthem, right?
It doesn't mean that's againwhere we're going when I'm
talking about like the bigthings versus like these little
things.
It doesn't mean that writingthree things down that you're
grateful for at the start ofyour day I keep saying this one
(38:20):
because I do it, because it'sreally helpful for me I think it
doesn't mean that right, when Ido that, I'm like, oh my God, I
feel so much better, I'm allbetter, I'm done.
Jerry (38:29):
Right.
Brooke (38:29):
Yeah, it's the accumulation of these things.
It's the small things, thesmall gestures, the small
behaviors that we dointentionally, that are meant to
make us feel better.
You know, help us address ifwe're working on anxiety or
negative thinking patterns,whatever it is we're working on,
it's those little things thatadd up.
(38:49):
It's not necessary thatimmediately it's going to fully
relieve whatever stress orproblem you're experiencing, but
it does start to chip away atit.
Jerry (38:59):
Yeah, but, brooke, I don't have any free time.
I don't have any free time todo these things.
You're saying what do you mean?
Brooke (39:08):
It's too bad.
I guess it's time.
I guess you just got to keepsuffering, right.
Jerry (39:15):
That's where I was heading with that.
It was like being intentional,right, Like if you intentionally
structure out your day, you'llfind the free time to do a lot
more.
But what happens generally whenwe don't structure a day, we
pick up our phones and then, oh,spend 15 minutes scrolling
through Instagram when it couldhave spent 15 minutes meditating
(39:37):
, reading, doing breath work,taking the cold plunge.
You know, doing like whatever,it is something for yourself.
Brooke (39:44):
Yes.
No one can make you do it 100%,and that's why I always tell
people too, like, yeah, I'm apsychologist, I'm specialized in
all these things, but I'm not awizard.
I can't just shake my wand andthen all of a sudden, you know
your problems are solved, Likeit is up to you, Right?
And I've really built likeitineraries with some of my
(40:04):
first responders to see when wecan fit in 10 minutes, 10
minutes in a day, right, to dosomething beneficial for them,
right?
Or if they have homework to dofrom their therapy session that
takes five minutes, All right,let's schedule it in.
We're going to set a reminderon your phone to do this, right,
Actually scheduling thesethings in.
(40:25):
And sometimes I've even donefull itineraries with what you
were just talking about, wherelet's take a look of.
Let's go from yesterday.
I want to go through everyminute of your day, exactly what
you were doing, right?
And then we see these littleI'll call them like pieces of
fat throughout the day when it'slike you said, 15 minutes
scrolling through Instagram, andyou know I spent 30 minutes,
(40:49):
you know, kind of just loungingon the couch watching TV, and
then I spent, you know, 10minutes, whatever it is right,
and so it's like those are thoselittle pockets of time that we
can be more intentional inincorporating these things.
I just I'm a very busy personand I understand there might be,
you know, days here and therethat are just truly just so
(41:09):
packed but no one doesn't havethe time to incorporate.
You know, intentionally, try toincorporate these things on a
on a semi consistent basis.
Jerry (41:20):
Yeah, yeah and I think intentionality is is is huge.
A famous football player is aquarterback still in the NFL.
He schedules his day to forevery five minutes.
Brooke (41:33):
Wow, which one.
Jerry (41:34):
Kurt Cousin.
Brooke (41:36):
Oh, I love.
Jerry (41:38):
Last I heard that's what he was doing.
Brooke (41:40):
I'm not supposed to love him because I'm a Packers fan,
right, so, like Vikings arearrivals.
But I love this guy man.
He seems like such a down homeguy and I've I, okay, I've heard
that he's very regimented withthese things.
Jerry (41:52):
Yeah, I mean that's one, that's who I couldn't have.
Another person that you knowplans their day out like that,
but I mean they're just put somethought into your day and and
he's that we'll call it fat timeto to do those things that'll
help you have a better career, abetter life.
You know, when you retire, whenyou come home, when you go to
work, like my goal is just, Iwould love to see first
(42:16):
responders just like go to work,do an excellent job and come
home, have an excellent life,you know, and retire and have an
excellent life.
You don't have to fall intothese cultural traps of like
this is our job, so I'm going torun the chainsaw all day, you
know, and not worry about yourprotection and just be deaf at
the end of my career.
Brooke (42:37):
Right, you don't have to do that.
Yeah, no, no, you don't.
You know, and along with thattoo, Jerry is I'm thinking, not
only incorporating the thelittle things throughout the day
, but sometimes self care canalso look like setting
boundaries with ourselves too,and I know that a lot of my
first responders struggle withthis, and I know that I struggle
(42:57):
with it.
Sometimes the worst, like thehardest thing to do is set
boundaries with ourselves.
So it could be I'm just goingto give my own personal example
is you know, I had to startsetting a boundary with myself
of when I will stop looking atmy email.
So I now have a cutoff time atnight that I'm not checking, you
know, because I have access toit on my phone.
Notifications are off.
(43:18):
I don't look at it because,needless to say, you know it'd
be like eight o'clock.
No, I see that email, oh crap.
Yeah, I got to, you know and itwould just kind of keep me going
and then just stress up andstress up, and stress up, right.
So not only does this, doesself care look like
incorporating things, you know,small little things, but it
could look like okay, what arethings that aren't required or
(43:38):
necessary of me that I can maybekind of set a boundary with
Right?
Are there things I'm doing, forexample, if I'm not sleeping?
Where are there things that arekeeping me up, or whatever it
is to set that boundary of like,okay, what does this look like?
Maybe, instead of looking at myphone, for you know a total of
an hour a day, I cut it down to45 minutes.
Right, stuff little things likethat, boundaries like that.
Jerry (44:01):
Yeah, speaking of phones, like just one little tip for me
is because I can do the samething, right, you're constantly
being flooded with messages andemails and stuff.
Most all my notifications areall silent, so my phone doesn't
really go off a whole lot and itjust all that extra time of
like oh, who's this, what's this, what's this I don't get, and
(44:23):
it builds up like anxiety when I, like you know people get, oh,
I got a notification, I got tolook, I got to do it instantly,
like no, you don't.
I always say, say messages areoptional, to respond as soon as
you can and when you want, andphone calls are a little bit
different, you know, becausepeople don't really make them
anymore.
So that might be urgent.
What are those?
(44:44):
Yeah, yeah, brooke, before Ilet you go, do you have any
other tips that you can think ofthat maybe would be beneficial
to first responders?
Brooke (44:55):
I mean, I would say, just start to kind of explore
different things that might behelpful for you listening to
podcasts, finding certain booksthat are educational for you or
books that you just get lost inand enjoy, you know, finding
certain activity based thingsthat you enjoy doing right.
And starting to really kind oftake a look at what your life is
right now and see where, maybe,if there are any gaps of things
(45:18):
that you want to kind ofaddress or kind of nurture a
little bit more, and what thinkabout the things that maybe you
can, you know, fill those spotswith.
Jerry (45:29):
Yeah, I've been in different parts of my life.
I had an injury and I was outfor 500 days and it just felt
like it is fell into this holeuntil I hit like rock bottom.
But it wasn't so.
Like there's always a way tolike dig yourself out, you know
to start pulling yourself up,you know yourself, and then you
(45:50):
know once again reach out toothers to help, because most
people want to help you.
They don't want to see yousuffer.
Brooke (45:58):
Yeah, I mean I know it probably doesn't mean that much
to some people when I say this,but the thing I see so like just
as a first responderpsychologist, I see so many
different first respondersthinking that they are the only
ones struggling with whatever itis, and I'm like you have no
(46:20):
idea how many other firstresponders are struggling with
exactly what you're strugglingwith, right, and so I.
Just a message I like to getacross is that you are not alone
in this right what you'reexperiencing.
You're not the only individualexperiencing it.
This is not some personalfailure.
It is not some defect.
You're not defected in any way.
Right that there's so manyfirst responders struggling in
(46:44):
silence.
Jerry (46:47):
Amen, Amen.
I mean, I've been there and Irecently retired and I kind of
caught myself one day.
I was, I went and had a drinkand I was just sitting at the
bar just by myself, just kind ofpondering and I was like why am
I feeling like I'm sufferinghere?
Why do I feel like this, likegoing through all these emotions
(47:08):
of retiring and everything thatI feel like I'm just suffering?
Why, why, why do I find myselfhere feeling that, when I know I
should not be feeling that andI have all these other options
and things I could do?
But I mean, right, Sometimes wejust lapse back into into
places and and we can sit withour feelings for a bit and then
(47:29):
get back on the road to where weneed to go.
Brooke (47:32):
Yeah, I call it I.
The analogy I use is drivingthe car with the engine light on
.
It's probably one of myfavorite analogies, yeah, first
responders, and some of us,including myself, is that you
know, when our check enginelight goes on in our car doesn't
most, most times, doesn't meanthere's something horribly wrong
or anything like that, but it'sjust kind of an indicator of
like, okay, tom, you know timeto look into this, you know time
(47:55):
to you know, maybe there's some, some things we need to Take
care of, right, but our car canstill drive real smoothly, yeah,
and so we'll just keep drivingit, and driving it, and driving
it, and over time, that smalllittle thing that was there can
really develop into a biggerthing and, you know, could
result in our transmissionblowing out, for example?
(48:16):
Yeah, but yeah, we get into thehabit of just driving our
metaphorical car, you know, withthe check engine light on, you
know, because yeah, we're fine,we can just keep going.
Jerry (48:29):
Yeah, yeah, definitely Brooke.
Where can people find you andfollow you?
Brooke (48:34):
Yeah, so I am find me on Instagram.
I'm sure you'll put some of thelinks and stuff right, so I
don't have to spell it out.
But, dr Brooke, phd, I alsohave a website, centertosscom.
But yeah, I really encouragepeople to.
I always love to hear frompeople like you know.
If they something thatresonated with them, please feel
(48:55):
free, you know, to reach out tome, shoot me a message.
Jerry (48:58):
You know I'm always always happy and excited to
network and make connections, soyeah, thank you so much for
being on the podcast today andthank you also for your
dedication to the firstresponder world.
Brooke (49:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks so much for having me.
Jerry (49:12):
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
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(49:34):
, also by visiting the show'swebsite, enduring the badge
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Remember the views and opinionsexpressed during the show, so
we represent those of our hostsand the current episodes.
(49:55):
Thanks,
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
Podcast.
I'm host Jerry Dean Lund and ifyou haven't already done so,
please take out your phone andhit that subscribe button.
I don't want you to miss anupcoming episode.
And hey, while your phone's out, please give us a rating and
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On whichever platform youlisten to this podcast on, such
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It helps this podcast grow andthe reason why, when this gets
(00:24):
positive ratings and reviews,those platforms like Apple
Podcasts and Spotify show thisto other people that never
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grow and make a more of animpact on other people's lives.
So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isBrooke Bartlett.
How you doing, brooke?
Brooke (00:44):
Hey, I'm doing well, Thank you.
Jerry (00:46):
Good Brooke, can you introduce yourself to the
audience?
Brooke (00:49):
Yeah, I am a licensed clinical psychologist based out
of San Diego and I am aspecialized psychologist
specifically with firstresponders and military and
their loved ones.
Jerry (01:04):
I've got to ask how'd you get into this field?
Brooke (01:06):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So, okay, let's just go all theway back, right?
Jerry (01:12):
Let's do it yes.
Brooke (01:14):
So growing up in my childhood always very, very much
fascinated by trauma and likereally drawn towards trauma.
I know it sounds worrisome, butyeah, always was like.
The books I read as anine-year-old was like Ken Burns
, vietnam War right, I wasalways just getting like
nonfiction books reading them,always really drawn to it.
(01:37):
I had a couple of familymembers in the military.
I'm very patriotic, verythankful for the people who
sacrifice not only their livesbut also I always say that the
sacrifice of their mind.
Jerry (01:47):
As well as what they do.
Brooke (01:51):
And so I decided I wanted to become a psychologist
and specialize in working withmilitary.
So I had started on the road ittakes about 12 to 15 years to
become a psychologist andstarted working at the National
Center for PTSD doing mypredoctoral research for a few
years.
So that's in Boston, at the VAthere, and so it was tracking to
(02:13):
become a military psychologist.
And then when I started my PhD,we had just made a connection
with one of the largest firedepartments in the country and
police departments in thecountry and immediately hit the
ground running working withfirst responders.
So both on the research side soI have a very heavy research
(02:33):
background but also in theclinical, like in-person side,
and I immediately fell in lovewith working with first
responders, immediately realizedthat there was a lot of overlap
between first responders andmilitary, both in terms of their
culture and in terms of thestruggles that they faced, and
decided I'm just going tocontinue to ride this train and
(02:56):
spent all seven years of mydoctoral training working with
first responders.
Again on the research side, Iwas on call 24-7.
I had a therapy office seeingfirst responders and their
family members.
I was there for everythingfunerals, promotions, etc.
And yeah, that's how that cameto be.
Jerry (03:16):
And now you have your own private practice after all that
.
Brooke (03:20):
Correct, yeah.
So I knew that once I.
So to become a psychologisttakes about five years of
training and schooling and thenyou have to do a full year of
internship, which was basicallyfull-time job, working in like
in my case I was working at a VAhospital and then you have to
do anywhere from one to threeyears of fellowship.
So after you get the PhD,before you get licensed, you
(03:42):
have to do one to three moreyears of full-time fellowship.
And so I knew that once I wasdone with all that and I got
licensed, that I wanted to openup my own business.
So, yeah, I have a therapypractice where I see first
responders or loved ones,military, and a big part of what
I do is on the consultationside.
(04:03):
So I help agencies, publicsafety agencies across the
country with their wellnessprogramming.
So I get brought in a lot to doeducational seminars on
different types of mental healthtopics like post-traumatic
stress and anxiety and moralinjury.
I also get brought in to helpbuild peer support programs,
(04:24):
help supervise peer supporters,consult on policies, things like
that.
So I really, really, really,really love it.
Jerry (04:34):
You must, because that is an incredible amount of
dedication and time to put intogetting one to where you are
today.
Brooke (04:42):
Yeah, it's a long.
It's a long.
I was very burnt out.
I'm not going to lie about that.
Jerry (04:48):
So I bet.
I bet I appreciate yourdedication and thank you for
having that dedication so youcan help first responders.
I have the best life.
I think that's what I try.
To teach people on the podcastor have guests kind of bring out
is just like this is a job,this is a career and we're very
passionate about it.
(05:08):
Sometimes it becomes who we are, unfortunately, which is, I
think, is not a good thing.
We need to be better at that.
So we're going to explore somethings today that Brooke and I
kind of just bounce around alittle bit before we jumped on
here, and one of them I'm justgoing to start right into it I'm
broken, brooke.
Brooke (05:29):
I'm broken, yeah okay, please go on yeah.
Jerry (05:35):
First.
You know, too often firstresponders get told they feel
like they're broken and thenthey find somebody that will
kind of just maybe feed intothat and say, yeah, you are
broken.
Like yeah, what do you thinkabout?
Brooke (05:51):
that it's an unfortunate , unfortunate misconception,
right yeah, when we get to thepoint where we're really
struggling whether it be posttraumatic stress, anxiety,
substance abuse, whatever it isthat at that point that means
that we are broken in apermanent way, like there's no
going back, there's no fixingthis, that this is almost just
(06:14):
like our.
This is who we are now in ourpermanent state, and that's a
very unfortunate misconceptionfor many reasons.
It keeps a lot of people fromeven seeking help, because it's
almost kind of what we calllearned helplessness, like
what's the point?
Jerry (06:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Brooke (06:32):
But it also is very stigmatizing as well.
Right, it can be verystigmatizing, and, as we know,
in the first responder culture,stigma is probably the biggest
roadblock for people seekinghelp, and so that couldn't be
further from the truth.
In terms of any type of mentalhealth issue that someone is
(06:53):
experiencing or struggling with.
These are things that can beaddressed and that can resolve.
They don't just happen on theirown, though.
Jerry (07:03):
Right, right, right.
You got to invest time intohealing yourself.
Brooke (07:10):
Absolutely.
I mean, I always I like I'm abig per, I love analogies.
Okay, so I'm always usinganalogies and I love to use
analogies like, compared to likephysical things, because I
think that we're we findphysical injuries or physical
illnesses and diseases more realright, and mental health it's
always like I don't know likeright.
(07:31):
We don't really believe in itas much, so to speak.
But physical health and mentalhealth go hand in hand.
Mental health is physicalhealth, but I like to use the
example of like.
I broke my knee about 10 yearsago, cracked it in half.
I was living in Boston, slippedon ice.
It wasn't a cool story, I wasjust walking to the VA to go to
my job and slipped.
(07:51):
So when I broke my knee, if Ihad just not done anything about
it probably definitely wouldn'thave healed properly, right?
Maybe like the bone would havelike tried to kind of refuse
itself in some way, but I'ddefinitely be walking with the
gate, wouldn't be able tophysically move the way I
(08:13):
normally could.
So I had to get it fixed right.
I had to get my knee fixed andthen it took about a year of
physical therapy and rehabbing.
I had to go to physical therapytwice a week and of course I
had to be doing my littleexercises and things in between,
right To build, to repair andthen rebuild my knee and my leg,
(08:34):
which at the time was veryatrophied, to get back to where
I was.
And it's the same thing whenwe're talking about mental
health, like it doesn't justhappen on its own, like no, you
can't just like cross yourfingers and hope for the best.
And honestly I tell people too,you know, if you're just kind
of going through the motions,like okay, I went to a therapy
session here and there and I'mgoing through the motions, but
(08:55):
I'm not really taking that andapplying it outside of the
therapy office, there might notbe much progress either.
Jerry (09:05):
There's.
Brooke (09:05):
I tell my therapy clients you know there's a.
They're with me one hour a weekand there's the math 12 times
seven, like 160 hours in theweek, right?
So most of the work thatthey're doing is outside of our
sessions together.
Right, there's things that weneed to be doing to start to
mend, heal and rebuild ourmental health.
(09:27):
So it's the same thing asphysical health.
We just can't see it the sameway that we do with a physical
injury.
Jerry (09:36):
And would you say that, like people experience, like you
know how, a physical injury,people no-transcript, still
things differently, right, andwith a, we'll call it I don't
know how to properly word thislike a mental health injury,
like just the same as the kindof analogy.
You know they look differentfor different people, right,
(09:57):
they're not all the same.
Just because I break my arm,you know it's not always, you
know it doesn't.
Everybody doesn't break theirarm the same way or heal the
same way.
Brooke (10:05):
No, no, exactly.
Yeah, you're exactly right.
I mean, you got to think aboutthe I called them predisposing
and post-disposing factors.
But yeah, the injury is not thesame for every single person.
I have a.
I was an athlete before all,before my my other life of
becoming a psychologist, I was acompetitive athlete, a D1
athlete.
I had a lot of preexistinginjuries already, one in my hip
(10:29):
and you know so that impacted myknee break differently.
I think it's why I had to go toyou know, do the physical rehab
for an extended period of time.
But yeah, there's all thesedifferent factors that go into
it.
So it's not, it's not a, it'snot a clear cut thing.
The two people can have apost-traumatic stress injury and
, yes, they, they experiencesimilar symptoms and everything,
(10:51):
but they're they're not exactlythe same, right, and and every
unique, every individual isunique in terms of what their
treatment plan looks like andwhat their recovery looks like.
Jerry (11:02):
Yeah, and that's probably kind of a fascinating part for
your job is to to figure out the, the unique way to get them on
the right track of feelingbetter and healing themselves.
Brooke (11:13):
Yeah, it is.
It's really interesting becausethroughout all my my my
pre-doctoral training and mydoctoral training, you know like
I trained in three of thebiggest VA's in the country.
You know, working in differentpublic safety agencies, there's
a big emphasis on like reallysticking to the protocol,
(11:33):
meaning I use evidence-basedtreatment, which means
treatments that have beenscientifically proven to be
effective in treating, let's say, post-traumatic stress.
You know, as you kind of go onand become more independent and
start practicing on your own,you know everyone's different,
so I use the same evidence-basedapproaches and treatments for
(11:56):
people, but you have to adapt itto the unique individual.
It's not a cookie cutter typeof process, and so that is a big
part of what I do in.
In working with each individualthat I work with is we need to
see how this fits for youspecifically, right?
What does this look like foryou?
And I always tell my therapyclients and I wholeheartedly
(12:19):
mean it like I can't do my jobwithout you.
In fact, I am useless withoutyou, right?
Jerry (12:26):
Yeah.
Brooke (12:27):
I'm the expert in post-traumatic stress, but
you're the expert in you Like,so we're, we're a team Like.
We work through this together.
Jerry (12:37):
Do you feel that first responders are willing to put
the work in to help healingthemselves, or do you feel like
maybe part of it is just likethis is part of our job is just
to suffer through this stuff?
Brooke (12:52):
You know I don't want to make a blanketed statement.
Sure, first responders are lesslikely to seek help, and I
think that's one of the reasonswhy, right, I am the helper, I
am the life saver, I am theproblem solver.
I don't need to get help myself, right?
And then again, the stigma.
I mean it is highly stigmatizedto show any what they perceive
(13:15):
as weakness.
Right, and weakness is anyissue that I'm experiencing
being bothered by that call, notbeing able to get that call out
of my head, suffering, you know, starting to have more conflict
at home with my wife becauseXYZ, right, all these things
that so many first respondersexperience but yet, you know,
suffer in silence from, becauseof the fear of being open about
(13:39):
any of these things, because ofthat, just massive stigma.
Jerry (13:43):
What do you think about vulnerability and the power in
that?
Brooke (13:48):
Vulnerability is very important.
I mean vulnerability if we'retalking about in the therapy
room and the therapeutic process.
It's, it's.
I'm just this is my personalopinion it's a requirement to
have the actual results that youwant.
Now that does not mean that youhave your first session.
Let's say with me and like,yeah, I'm expecting you to just
(14:09):
open yourself up and be fullyvulnerable.
That's not the way it works.
It takes time to build arelationship and build that
rapport.
But vulnerability in the factof, ok, I do need help.
This is something you know.
It's gone on long enough.
It's starting to affect my lifein a lot of different ways that
I don't want it to, and youknow I'm.
(14:29):
I'm vulnerable and open in thesense of to seeing how I might
be able to get this address.
Jerry (14:36):
Yeah, I mean, if you're hiding something or not fully
trusting the person you're withor don't feel like they're
culturally competent, they don'tunderstand you.
You kind of just like you said,kind of like just going through
the process but you're notgoing to really benefit a lot
from it.
Brooke (14:52):
Yeah, and, but it's equally as important to find
someone.
That again, one of the most, ifnot the most, important thing
this is supported by theresearch is that the the the
most dominant factor in positiveoutcomes and treatment right
prognosis, so to speak israpport, the relationship that
(15:12):
you have with your providerright, and so the most important
thing is that you feelcomfortable with your provider
and not everyone's a fit foreveryone, right.
Someone could be there could bea psychologist out there who's
just so incredibly good at X, y,z, right they're, they're an
OCD specialist, but theirpersonality and approach might
not be the best fit for JohnSmith, right, that's OK, but so,
(15:37):
but it's so important to findthat fit and in the first
responder world, to really findsomeone who's culturally
competent, right.
And I tell my first responders,like grill, the person that
you're considering working with,Like you get free, free
consultation, called beforehandwith a therapist, like ask in
their background, if they saythey're culturally competent,
(15:57):
ask them how, like, what makesyou culturally competent?
What's your background?
What experience do you have?
What training do you have?
Right, All these differentthings to really assess that
cultural competency as well.
Jerry (16:08):
Yeah, I've spoken to a lot of first responders and
they've gone to one visit andthey're like it didn't go as
planned or the way they wantedit to and they didn't.
They didn't like the personthey were meeting with and
they're like oh, I tried, I'mdone, yes, I'm like no, no, this
is like dating.
You like you got to like seeksome different other people.
(16:29):
Don't just, don't just give up,because you've already taken a
really big step.
You know to go seek help, sodon't, don't stop now.
Brooke (16:38):
Yeah, yeah, 100 percent, and I hear that all the time
too, and it's, it's unfortunate,it's like, oh, I tried, or you
know, I've had, I've worked,I've worked with first
responders who told me that likeabout like their first
experience going to someone andit was like a really bad one,
like someone who is clearly notequipped or culturally competent
and I don't blame like that.
That's a really shittyexperience, right, yeah.
(16:59):
And it doesn't mean like thatdoesn't mean OK, well, I tried
and I'm done.
And I hear a lot of firstresponders like you know well,
that just means I'm stuck likethis forever, Like I'm never
going to get the help I need,Like there's no one that can
help me, and that also is is nottrue.
Like it take, like said ittakes time.
Like shop around, shop around,I shop around, I had to shop
(17:19):
around for for the psychologist,I see, you know, and and hey,
if you find one that you likeright away, awesome.
But just because you don't finda fit right away doesn't mean
that there's no fit out there.
Jerry (17:32):
Yeah, I have this.
I've had this thought since wefirst talked a little while back
and around, like firstresponders, like around their,
their teams right, that theywork with and stuff like that.
I was thinking do you thinksome of them like marry each
other's problems?
Is that, does that make sense?
Brooke (17:51):
Can.
Can you go a little bit moreinto like what you mean by that?
Jerry (17:54):
I just feel like sometimes, like they like
someone in the group has anissue and it starts kind of
manifesting, then all of asudden other people start kind
of like marrying that same same.
They're starting to have thosesame problems too.
Brooke (18:09):
Yeah, I mean, you know the sociological phenomenon of
observational learning, right?
I mean, that's wherebehaviorally wired to do that.
But I would also say that Ithink they start mirroring a lot
of each other's problemsbecause they're all experiencing
the similar circumstances thatare affecting them the same way,
(18:31):
and that also might be whythey're kind of it seems to be
almost like a I don't know itsounds like a bad word, but like
contagion.
Jerry (18:38):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I did see some of thatthroughout my career.
I mean, sometimes that's justpeople just opening up and
starting to break open, and thenother people have had these
same feelings that they now feellike they can share.
Brooke (18:53):
Yeah, yeah, the trickle down effect.
I mean, it will never cease toamaze me when I always, when I
give, like training seminars,presentations, you know, to
different agencies, whether I'mgiving giving one on
post-traumatic stress or moralinjury or anxiety or whatever it
is One of my tips is alwaystalk, talk to people, talk to
(19:17):
people you trust, right, and itdoesn't mean to open up and talk
about your deepest, darkestsecrets or struggles, but like
just the act of saying man, thatcall really sucked for me.
I'm, I'm, I'm all messed up inthe head from that call that's.
That is like we'll start tokind of have that like pinball
effect and the I can see thatpeople kind of are more
(19:40):
comfortable.
Yeah, bothering me too, like I,I didn't sleep well last couple
of nights.
Right, I mean it just opens upthe floodgates as opposed to
just stoic or good, we're justgoing to keep going.
Jerry (19:52):
Right, right I was.
I was thinking about some likemy crew members in the past and
going through some of thedifficult incidents and
difficult incidents affecteverybody differently.
Once again, like some peoplelike I'm okay and then some
people are, are bothered.
And then those some people thatare okay Sometimes like why is
(20:13):
that bothering you?
I don't understand, I don't.
I don't get why.
This doesn't seem to be like anothing kind of call to me.
I don't get it.
Brooke (20:21):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's a big part of what Italk about when I do my trauma
trainings is that we allexperience trauma differently.
No two people experience traumathe exact same way.
Yeah, not your best friend, notyou and your best friend, who's
also your crew member.
No two people experience traumathe exact same way, and that's
(20:41):
something that I hear so many ofmy first responders when they
come to see me for therapy isthey'll be like something wrong
with me, doc, like I don't know.
Everyone else is my crew sawthis, you know respond to that
same call, but there's somethingwrong with me, like I just
can't shake it.
Like what's wrong with me?
Right, we all respond to traumadifferently.
We all have differentexperiences, backgrounds,
beliefs, all these differentthings and post disposing
(21:03):
factors, what I call them.
Like we go home to differentcircumstances, we do different
things to cope, we havedifferent lifestyles, right, all
these things play into how weexperience that.
Jerry (21:13):
Yeah, how do you right?
Our brains are made upcompletely different, right you
should?
For the most part, I maybethat's not the right way to put
it.
Maybe the neural pathways are alittle bit different in each
one of our brains.
Would that be fair to say?
Brooke (21:27):
Yeah, oh, absolutely.
None of us have the exact samebrain.
Jerry (21:30):
And when it comes to like these PTSD or PTSD, you know,
type injuries what's a good wayto start going about?
Try to like, maybe heal some ofthese things.
Brooke (21:45):
Yeah, so the here's the good thing.
We were talking about thebroken type thing, right, the
broken type misconception andthat, like my issue, is
permanent type thing.
That's not true, because we areall born with a superpower and
it's called neuroplasticity.
Have you ever heard of that?
Jerry (22:05):
I have, I love it.
I love brain science.
Brooke (22:08):
Brain stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
So whether we're talking abouta post traumatic stress injury,
or we're talking about someonesuffering from depression or
anxiety or whatever it is, ourbrain is literally designed to
change.
It's malleable, right, and thatdoesn't stop as we age, like
(22:28):
back in the day, before all thescience, technology came out and
we, you know, could examinethese things.
We as if I'm not aneuroscientist, but you know
that that neuroscientist couldexamine these things they
thought, okay, we must, you know, we stop learning at it like
there's some kind of all right,you're this age and your brain,
just you know what you got iswhat you got.
(22:50):
But that's not the case.
So in any type of any time, anytime someone is trying to
address a mental health issuelike post traumatic stress, you
have to engage in evidence basedtreatment.
And that treatment is evidencebased because there's scientific
(23:10):
things that have been proven torewire your physiological body
right Physiologically.
You know your HPA access andyour brain.
Our brains can rewire theirneural connections to then fire
in a different way.
But, as we were saying earlier,this doesn't just happen on its
own.
Jerry (23:32):
Can I do it on my own?
Brooke (23:34):
We can do it on our own.
Well, you need help andassistance.
Yes, then you can do it on yourown.
You need a direction.
For example, if I'm going backto my physical therapy example
like they weren't having me doany groundbreaking exercises to
rebuild my knee and my leg.
But I need a direction onexactly what this looks like.
(23:56):
What are the exact exercises todo?
How many times do I do them?
Then I could go and do them onmy own and it's no different in
this case Neuroplasticity.
There's two different types ofneuroplasticity.
We call it structural andthat's where we can actually
build up and regain strength incertain neural connections and
(24:19):
then prune away the weak ones.
That's synaptic pruning, whichprune away the weak ones.
There's a functional aspect ofneuroplasticity in cases where
someone who has actual braindamage say traumatic brain
injury of some sort, a veteranwho was near an IAD and got
knocked out at the time, orindividuals who suffered a
(24:40):
stroke, where if there's a partof the brain that is damaged and
that can't function because ofthat, actually blunt force
trauma, so to speak thatdifferent parts of the brain are
able to build up their strengthto try and make up for the lost
strength in that area of thebrain.
It's really incredible what ourbrain can do.
Jerry (25:00):
Yeah, it really is.
I think we're like you'resaying I don't think the new
science is quite getting outthere yet on what our brains can
do, and they're prettymagnificent things that it can
do with help.
I mean, you can rewire somethings on your own, I feel like,
but you're going to have tomaybe find a good book to help
(25:22):
you do that, or different thingslike that.
Brooke (25:25):
Yes, I agree.
So it all depends on what theperson where the person is at,
so I can never just give ablanketed answer.
I have a lot of people come andbe like, okay, how do I fix
this?
It really depends Someone whohas a full diagnosis of
post-traumatic stress disorder,which that means they have
clinically significant symptoms.
(25:45):
They're severe, they're notgoing away, they are causing
significant impairment inmultiple areas of their life.
Once they reach past thatthreshold, then it's more than
what can I just do on my own.
You need professional help tohelp you get there.
Now we all struggle withdifferent things and experience
different things.
If someone's level of severityor their issue or issues that
(26:08):
they're experiencing are notpast that threshold, then, yeah,
there's certain things we canjust do on our own.
A lot of the tips I give arejust small little things to do
on your own, Like you even said,reading a book, learning about
these things and practicing someof these things that you learn,
Keeping up your mental healthjust as we would our physical
health.
I think it's really importantfor people to understand that
(26:30):
too.
It's not always not everythingthat you're dealing with, or
even if you're trying to beproactive and just build
strength mentally.
Mental health strength doesn'talways require that you go see a
professional, but once someonepasses to a certain threshold,
doing these things on your ownwill probably not end with it
(26:53):
being resolved.
Jerry (26:54):
Yeah, I think that's very , very fair to say.
Mm-hmm, as far as firstresponders go, what do you like
being proactive?
Do you feel like they areproactive or are reactive?
Because most of that type ofjob is reactive.
Not a lot of proactive stuffgoes into it, so I just feel
(27:15):
like it kind of carries overinto our personal lives 100%.
Brooke (27:19):
I would say again, generally speaking no, I don't
feel like first responders areproactive, and I think there's a
few different things that gointo that.
I feel like in my experience,more often than not, someone
waits until shit hits the fanand then it's like oh no, I got
to do something about this.
(27:39):
And at that point, that's whenthis issue, or these issues are
starting to get in I'm going tokeep saying it causing
significant impairment insomeone's life.
Consistently, I'm not able toperform my job as well.
My wife and I are nearing adivorce, my physical health is
deteriorating.
I haven't been sleeping formonths, all these different
(28:02):
areas where it's having thatimpairment.
And then they're like OK, maybeI need to do something about
this, but a lot of the work I doin wellness program with
agencies is we need to build upthe proactive side of things,
and what proactive means?
There's two.
I think of it as three lines ofdefense.
The third line of defense isthe reactionary, that basically
(28:24):
crisis or like the shit has hitthe fan, crisis.
We got to intervene and helpthis person because they're not
doing well.
That's very necessary.
We always need thosereactionary things in place and,
just as important, we need toemphasize the proactive, which
is the first line of defense.
Keeping healthy people healthy.
(28:45):
That's the best scenario rightthere, right.
Jerry (28:50):
Yeah, I totally agree.
Brooke (28:53):
Yeah, the way we keep ourselves healthy is to engage
in behaviors, activities,whatever you want to call it,
that keep us healthy.
I mean, again, if we're justtalking about our diet or things
like that, if we stay healthyphysically, like that, generally
(29:15):
speaking, we have a habit ofeating well and, yeah, maybe we
go throw down a few beers and aburger and some fries on a
Saturday.
It doesn't mean we have toadhere to it perfectly, but we
have a behavioral pattern ofdoing that, and that's what we
want to emphasize on the mentalhealth side.
The best case scenarios I getbrought into an agency and
(29:38):
someone's like yeah, I'm doinggreat, awesome, let's keep it
that way, what are you doingthat's working, and what are
things that you can proactivelydo to prevent potentially
getting to that other side?
Right, that's the first line ofdefense, and the second line of
defense is early intervention,and what that basically means is
we all get to the point wherewe are at the second stage,
(30:00):
where things aren't going sowell, like, yeah, we're still
functioning, there's nosignificant issues, we're not
having major problems that areconsistent or anything like that
, but we're not feelingourselves, we're having trouble
in this area, we're doing that,and then that's the area where
we want to be able to interveneand do things to prevent that
(30:22):
snowball from continuing to roll.
Those first two lines of defenseare so important and I think we
all kind of forget about themsometimes and we wait until it
gets to that third line and thenwe're like, oh no, this sucks.
I guess I have to do somethingabout this.
Jerry (30:42):
Yeah, you think between that second line of defense and
the third line is there a lot ofaddiction that kind of takes
place, or where is that?
Because I know the dictionaryin first responder to different
things is fairly high.
Brooke (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's a tough question.
So substance misuse and abusein first responders is extremely
high.
I've done a lot of research onit.
I mean at least a third, andthis is under-reporting, by the
way.
But at least a third, one out ofthree first responders misuse
(31:17):
substances.
There's different types of.
I like to kind of when we'retalking about addiction versus
substance abuse, versussubstance misuse.
Substance abuse is not alwayssomeone that is drinking, let's
say, all the time, right, likethe frequency of their drinking.
Now, of course, if someone isdrinking all the time, yeah,
(31:40):
that would be constitute anaddiction.
But what I see often in myfirefighters is that they do two
things.
They utilize, let's say, alcoholto calm down their arousal
system, their fight or flightsystem after shifts to try and
(32:00):
sleep.
They're using it in ways to tryand cope with some of these
things and that's maybe in themoment it helps, but in the long
term it starts to cause moreissues.
But then I also see a lot offirst responders that it's this
is what I call them, it's the gobig or go home kind of first
responder, where they don'treally drink that frequently,
(32:21):
but they're known that when theydo drink they go big or go home
.
Right, they blast it out of thepark and even if it's just once
a month, let's say that theydrink, that when they do they
get so drunk.
It always leads to some kind ofproblem they pick a fight with
their wife when they get home,or they start a fight at the bar
or something.
(32:42):
They can't wake up the nextmorning and show up to shift, or
they show up to shift kind ofdrunk, right, all these
different things that like, yep,that's oh great, so-and-so is
going to be drinking tonight.
We know how that's going to goright.
That's the other common type ofsubstance abuse that I see
among first responders.
Jerry (33:01):
Sorry, I chuckle a little bit when you're giving those
explanations and examples,because like, yeah, but I've
seen that before.
I'm not saying I'm perfect, byany means yeah yeah, images
popping up in my head, yeah,yeah.
What can advice can you give tosome of the first responders
(33:21):
listening to maybe make thatturn either to start self-care
or maybe seek some help.
Brooke (33:29):
Yeah, in terms of self-care, I really like to
emphasize that it is the littlethings that make the biggest
difference.
The little things Like whenagain, when I'm giving tips or
you know how to approach this,I'm not saying anything
groundbreaking, right.
But to utilize that superpowerof neuroplasticity right, it
(33:53):
takes intentionality, right.
We can't just be like, oh okay,I guess I did something good
for me because that justhappened, like I didn't intend
to do that but it worked, right.
So, intentionality, consistencyand repetition right.
Find the little things thatwork for you.
I could throw out 10 differentthings right now that are
scientifically proven to help.
Maybe that helped me, but itdoesn't mean all 10 are going to
(34:15):
help you.
So I always like to tell myfirst sponsors in terms of
self-care, being proactive isspending time doing the little
things.
The little things go a long ways, right.
So, if it's spending fourminutes in the morning listening
to your favorite guided imageryaudio, right, do that right.
(34:39):
If it's writing down threethings at the start of your day,
what you intend to do that dayare things that you're grateful
for, right, do that right.
Try a bunch of different littlethings that, added up, really
help in the long term and stickwith them.
Right Again, if I'm going tobring it back to the physical
side of things, like if Istopped doing and I did this if
(35:03):
I stopped doing the littlethings during the day that were
rebuilding my injury, all of asudden my injury started to hurt
more again.
Right, and so we have toconsistently do these things and
make it almost part of ourroutine, so to speak, not
meaning we do it the same timeevery day or the same exact
thing every day, but reallypaying attention to all these
little things that we can do tokeep ourselves as healthy as
(35:26):
possible, and not only does itmake us feel better at the time,
but it also you know, the wordresilience is very popular right
now- but, what it does is itmakes us more likely to be able
to prevent, you know, worsenedissues from forming.
It makes us, in that way, right,we're starting off on a
(35:48):
stronger foot.
That doesn't mean that we can'texperience issues and struggles
, right With these things.
It just gives us a strongerfooting to be able to handle it
if and when that does happen.
Jerry (36:00):
Yeah, I was teaching a few years back.
In one of the classes I wasteaching, I put together like a
menu of like self-help, liketype things like here are the
things you can do.
Just look at all the differentthings you could do for yourself
.
But as caregivers I feel likethey just don't, they don't want
(36:20):
to take the time to do thattype of thing.
They get stuck in these, in theroutines of whether they're
good or bad Most of them are,you know, they get stuck in
these routines and they don'tdeviate from them.
Brooke (36:29):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think, too is anotherunfortunate misconception is
that, in order to make thechange that I'm hoping for, it's
going to have to be these bigthings.
Right, like I don't have thetime or the energy to make all
these big life changes, andthat's what you don't need to
(36:49):
make these big life changes,it's just the littlest things.
So, yeah, doing some type of aguided imagery, progressive
muscle relaxation.
Some people like to write down,not like a diary, but whatever
you want to call it like writedown certain things to the day,
having a board where they writedown three things they're
grateful for at the start of theday, reading 10 pages out of
(37:10):
their book a day.
You know, whatever it is thatworks for you is doing these
things and doing themconsistently and finding what
works for you, right.
And then they give you 50different things to potentially
try that help with all thesedifferent things.
But it's up to the person totest them out.
And if you try journaling,you're like this is dumb, like
this does nothing for me Great,you tried it, you know it
(37:32):
doesn't work for you.
Try something else, right?
Jerry (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, you know, people are struggling like with
their physical health and thenthey want help like getting
started and stuff like that.
And it's like, you know, okay,let's start with a walk, a short
walk, and then, as they startdoing that right, they start
feeling like maybe there's afive minute walk and then I'm
going to go a minute longertoday and I'm going to because
I'm starting to see and feel thebenefits of walking.
(37:56):
It's same things with theseother things for your mental
health.
Brooke (38:00):
Oh, 100%.
They're reinforced, right,positively reinforced when you
start seeing the benefits ofthem, right?
It doesn't mean that's againwhere we're going when I'm
talking about like the bigthings versus like these little
things.
It doesn't mean that writingthree things down that you're
grateful for at the start ofyour day I keep saying this one
(38:20):
because I do it, because it'sreally helpful for me I think it
doesn't mean that right, when Ido that, I'm like, oh my God, I
feel so much better, I'm allbetter, I'm done.
Jerry (38:29):
Right.
Brooke (38:29):
Yeah, it's the accumulation of these things.
It's the small things, thesmall gestures, the small
behaviors that we dointentionally, that are meant to
make us feel better.
You know, help us address ifwe're working on anxiety or
negative thinking patterns,whatever it is we're working on,
it's those little things thatadd up.
(38:49):
It's not necessary thatimmediately it's going to fully
relieve whatever stress orproblem you're experiencing, but
it does start to chip away atit.
Jerry (38:59):
Yeah, but, brooke, I don't have any free time.
I don't have any free time todo these things.
You're saying what do you mean?
Brooke (39:08):
It's too bad.
I guess it's time.
I guess you just got to keepsuffering, right.
Jerry (39:15):
That's where I was heading with that.
It was like being intentional,right, Like if you intentionally
structure out your day, you'llfind the free time to do a lot
more.
But what happens generally whenwe don't structure a day, we
pick up our phones and then, oh,spend 15 minutes scrolling
through Instagram when it couldhave spent 15 minutes meditating
(39:37):
, reading, doing breath work,taking the cold plunge.
You know, doing like whatever,it is something for yourself.
Brooke (39:44):
Yes.
No one can make you do it 100%,and that's why I always tell
people too, like, yeah, I'm apsychologist, I'm specialized in
all these things, but I'm not awizard.
I can't just shake my wand andthen all of a sudden, you know
your problems are solved, Likeit is up to you, Right?
And I've really built likeitineraries with some of my
(40:04):
first responders to see when wecan fit in 10 minutes, 10
minutes in a day, right, to dosomething beneficial for them,
right?
Or if they have homework to dofrom their therapy session that
takes five minutes, All right,let's schedule it in.
We're going to set a reminderon your phone to do this, right,
Actually scheduling thesethings in.
(40:25):
And sometimes I've even donefull itineraries with what you
were just talking about, wherelet's take a look of.
Let's go from yesterday.
I want to go through everyminute of your day, exactly what
you were doing, right?
And then we see these littleI'll call them like pieces of
fat throughout the day when it'slike you said, 15 minutes
scrolling through Instagram, andyou know I spent 30 minutes,
(40:49):
you know, kind of just loungingon the couch watching TV, and
then I spent, you know, 10minutes, whatever it is right,
and so it's like those are thoselittle pockets of time that we
can be more intentional inincorporating these things.
I just I'm a very busy personand I understand there might be,
you know, days here and therethat are just truly just so
(41:09):
packed but no one doesn't havethe time to incorporate.
You know, intentionally, try toincorporate these things on a
on a semi consistent basis.
Jerry (41:20):
Yeah, yeah and I think intentionality is is is huge.
A famous football player is aquarterback still in the NFL.
He schedules his day to forevery five minutes.
Brooke (41:33):
Wow, which one.
Jerry (41:34):
Kurt Cousin.
Brooke (41:36):
Oh, I love.
Jerry (41:38):
Last I heard that's what he was doing.
Brooke (41:40):
I'm not supposed to love him because I'm a Packers fan,
right, so, like Vikings arearrivals.
But I love this guy man.
He seems like such a down homeguy and I've I, okay, I've heard
that he's very regimented withthese things.
Jerry (41:52):
Yeah, I mean that's one, that's who I couldn't have.
Another person that you knowplans their day out like that,
but I mean they're just put somethought into your day and and
he's that we'll call it fat timeto to do those things that'll
help you have a better career, abetter life.
You know, when you retire, whenyou come home, when you go to
work, like my goal is just, Iwould love to see first
(42:16):
responders just like go to work,do an excellent job and come
home, have an excellent life,you know, and retire and have an
excellent life.
You don't have to fall intothese cultural traps of like
this is our job, so I'm going torun the chainsaw all day, you
know, and not worry about yourprotection and just be deaf at
the end of my career.
Brooke (42:37):
Right, you don't have to do that.
Yeah, no, no, you don't.
You know, and along with thattoo, Jerry is I'm thinking, not
only incorporating the thelittle things throughout the day
, but sometimes self care canalso look like setting
boundaries with ourselves too,and I know that a lot of my
first responders struggle withthis, and I know that I struggle
(42:57):
with it.
Sometimes the worst, like thehardest thing to do is set
boundaries with ourselves.
So it could be I'm just goingto give my own personal example
is you know, I had to startsetting a boundary with myself
of when I will stop looking atmy email.
So I now have a cutoff time atnight that I'm not checking, you
know, because I have access toit on my phone.
Notifications are off.
(43:18):
I don't look at it because,needless to say, you know it'd
be like eight o'clock.
No, I see that email, oh crap.
Yeah, I got to, you know and itwould just kind of keep me going
and then just stress up andstress up, and stress up, right.
So not only does this, doesself care look like
incorporating things, you know,small little things, but it
could look like okay, what arethings that aren't required or
(43:38):
necessary of me that I can maybekind of set a boundary with
Right?
Are there things I'm doing, forexample, if I'm not sleeping?
Where are there things that arekeeping me up, or whatever it
is to set that boundary of like,okay, what does this look like?
Maybe, instead of looking at myphone, for you know a total of
an hour a day, I cut it down to45 minutes.
Right, stuff little things likethat, boundaries like that.
Jerry (44:01):
Yeah, speaking of phones, like just one little tip for me
is because I can do the samething, right, you're constantly
being flooded with messages andemails and stuff.
Most all my notifications areall silent, so my phone doesn't
really go off a whole lot and itjust all that extra time of
like oh, who's this, what's this, what's this I don't get, and
(44:23):
it builds up like anxiety when I, like you know people get, oh,
I got a notification, I got tolook, I got to do it instantly,
like no, you don't.
I always say, say messages areoptional, to respond as soon as
you can and when you want, andphone calls are a little bit
different, you know, becausepeople don't really make them
anymore.
So that might be urgent.
What are those?
(44:44):
Yeah, yeah, brooke, before Ilet you go, do you have any
other tips that you can think ofthat maybe would be beneficial
to first responders?
Brooke (44:55):
I mean, I would say, just start to kind of explore
different things that might behelpful for you listening to
podcasts, finding certain booksthat are educational for you or
books that you just get lost inand enjoy, you know, finding
certain activity based thingsthat you enjoy doing right.
And starting to really kind oftake a look at what your life is
right now and see where, maybe,if there are any gaps of things
(45:18):
that you want to kind ofaddress or kind of nurture a
little bit more, and what thinkabout the things that maybe you
can, you know, fill those spotswith.
Jerry (45:29):
Yeah, I've been in different parts of my life.
I had an injury and I was outfor 500 days and it just felt
like it is fell into this holeuntil I hit like rock bottom.
But it wasn't so.
Like there's always a way tolike dig yourself out, you know
to start pulling yourself up,you know yourself, and then you
(45:50):
know once again reach out toothers to help, because most
people want to help you.
They don't want to see yousuffer.
Brooke (45:58):
Yeah, I mean I know it probably doesn't mean that much
to some people when I say this,but the thing I see so like just
as a first responderpsychologist, I see so many
different first respondersthinking that they are the only
ones struggling with whatever itis, and I'm like you have no
(46:20):
idea how many other firstresponders are struggling with
exactly what you're strugglingwith, right, and so I.
Just a message I like to getacross is that you are not alone
in this right what you'reexperiencing.
You're not the only individualexperiencing it.
This is not some personalfailure.
It is not some defect.
You're not defected in any way.
Right that there's so manyfirst responders struggling in
(46:44):
silence.
Jerry (46:47):
Amen, Amen.
I mean, I've been there and Irecently retired and I kind of
caught myself one day.
I was, I went and had a drinkand I was just sitting at the
bar just by myself, just kind ofpondering and I was like why am
I feeling like I'm sufferinghere?
Why do I feel like this, likegoing through all these emotions
(47:08):
of retiring and everything thatI feel like I'm just suffering?
Why, why, why do I find myselfhere feeling that, when I know I
should not be feeling that andI have all these other options
and things I could do?
But I mean, right, Sometimes wejust lapse back into into
places and and we can sit withour feelings for a bit and then
(47:29):
get back on the road to where weneed to go.
Brooke (47:32):
Yeah, I call it I.
The analogy I use is drivingthe car with the engine light on
.
It's probably one of myfavorite analogies, yeah, first
responders, and some of us,including myself, is that you
know, when our check enginelight goes on in our car doesn't
most, most times, doesn't meanthere's something horribly wrong
or anything like that, but it'sjust kind of an indicator of
like, okay, tom, you know timeto look into this, you know time
(47:55):
to you know, maybe there's some, some things we need to Take
care of, right, but our car canstill drive real smoothly, yeah,
and so we'll just keep drivingit, and driving it, and driving
it, and over time, that smalllittle thing that was there can
really develop into a biggerthing and, you know, could
result in our transmissionblowing out, for example?
(48:16):
Yeah, but yeah, we get into thehabit of just driving our
metaphorical car, you know, withthe check engine light on, you
know, because yeah, we're fine,we can just keep going.
Jerry (48:29):
Yeah, yeah, definitely Brooke.
Where can people find you andfollow you?
Brooke (48:34):
Yeah, so I am find me on Instagram.
I'm sure you'll put some of thelinks and stuff right, so I
don't have to spell it out.
But, dr Brooke, phd, I alsohave a website, centertosscom.
But yeah, I really encouragepeople to.
I always love to hear frompeople like you know.
If they something thatresonated with them, please feel
(48:55):
free, you know, to reach out tome, shoot me a message.
Jerry (48:58):
You know I'm always always happy and excited to
network and make connections, soyeah, thank you so much for
being on the podcast today andthank you also for your
dedication to the firstresponder world.
Brooke (49:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks so much for having me.
Jerry (49:12):
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
If you know someone that wouldbe great on the show, please get
ahold of our host, jerry DeanLund, through the Instagram
handles at Jerry fire and fuelor at enduring the badge podcast
(49:34):
, also by visiting the show'swebsite, enduring the badge
podcastcom, for additionalmethods of contact and up to
date information regarding theshow.
Remember the views and opinionsexpressed during the show, so
we represent those of our hostsand the current episodes.
(49:55):
Thanks,
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