What if your emotional well-being was just as critical as your physical health? Join us in this riveting episode of Enduring the Badge as we sit down with Don Bradley, a former police officer turned therapist, who specializes in first responders, complex trauma, PTSD, and military personnel. Bradley's no-nonsense approach to therapy sheds light on the stigma surrounding mental health support within the first responder community. He articulates the necessity of granting oneself emotional permission to heal and uses powerful analogies and metaphors to help clients better understand and internalize therapeutic lessons.
Explore the depth of survival mode and its profound effect on emotional responses, particularly for those in high-stress professions. Bradley uses a captivating county fair metaphor to describe how our identities—physical, intellectual, social, and emotional—are like horses pulling a team, with the emotional horse often being the neglected one. Discover how this neglect leads to unresolved emotions and why anger frequently becomes a coping mechanism. Understand the pressing need to address and express these emotions healthily to prevent emotional overload.
Navigate the challenging terrain of emotional self-awareness with insights from Bradley on the struggles faced by first responders and military personnel. Learn how the metaphor of an "emotional horse" encapsulates the weight of unresolved trauma and the importance of embracing vulnerability. We also discuss practical strategies like tactical breathing to help regain composure during heightened emotional states. Finally, Bradley emphasizes the importance of having a non-judgmental, culturally competent guide or mentor to support proactive mental health management, ensuring overall well-being in these demanding professions.
As a First Responder, you are critical in keeping our communities safe. However, the stress and trauma of the job can take a toll on your mental health and family life.
If you're interested in personal coaching, contact Jerry Lund at 801-376-7124. Let's work together to get you where you want to be and ensure a happy and healthy career.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jerry (00:02):
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
podcast.
I'm your host, jerry Dean Lund,and if you haven't already done
so, please take out your phoneand hit that subscribe button.
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And hey, while your phone's out, please give us a rating and
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On whichever platform youlisten to this podcast on, such
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(00:22):
grow and the reason why, whenthis gets positive ratings and
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this to other people that neverlistened to this podcast before,
and that allows our podcast togrow and make more of an impact
on other people's lives.
So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isDon Bradley.
(00:43):
How are you doing, don?
Donn (00:44):
I'm doing great.
Thanks for having me on.
Jerry (00:46):
Yeah, thanks for being on .
Don introduce yourself to theaudience.
Donn (00:49):
My name is Don Bradley and I am a former police officer
with the city of Hayward inNorthern California and I'm now
a therapist who works with firstresponders, complex trauma,
ptsd, military personnel,basically just all the really
rough stuff.
People that you that don't wantto see a therapist, they're the
one.
They come and see me.
Jerry (01:11):
Why did?
Why did they want to come andsee you?
What's the difference?
Donn (01:14):
Well, because you know.
You know how bad the stigma is,you know how, how, how thick it
is out there and and and it'sstill very, very thick.
So when I get people that areforced to come in, either their
significant others make themcome in, or the court makes them
come in, or whatever, or theyjust get so so burnt out and fed
(01:37):
up and container full thatthey're like it's either this or
I'm going to take my own life,and I mean it's, it's gotten
that bad.
I hear an above average levelof, you know, suicidal talk and
stuff.
Jerry (01:50):
So they come to you because they can relate to you.
Donn (01:54):
Basically I'm kind of the no-nonsense guy.
See, I did the wholeanti-terrorism thing before.
So I did terrorism liaison,crime scene tech and stuff like
that.
No-transcript, let's get to it.
(02:26):
Because they don't like thetouchy, feely patch on the head
tell you everything's going tobe all right stuff.
They just like to, they like toget right into it.
So people seem to resonate withthat.
Jerry (02:36):
Yeah, I mean I, I think that's that's true, right, you
know you don't.
If you're there, I really thinkyou probably should be doing
the work.
I mean, you've made the bigstep of coming, so I think you
need to have that kind of nononsense to maybe pull them out,
right Out of their, theirmindset, maybe that they're in,
that they're being shut down.
Donn (02:55):
Well, my whole spiel comes from the idea that there's a
sort of acknowledgement that youhave to start that Like you
have to.
You know, I got this, this,this thing right here.
Well, you can see it behind mehere and I call it.
Four is greater than two.
The new mission, right, causewe always like to use that
tactical language.
Jerry (03:15):
That's right.
Donn (03:16):
And they and they like to have that cool new tool on their
belt and stuff like that.
So I'm just I'm kind of doingit in a funny sort of sneak past
your defenses way, but the longand short of it is that you
have to give yourself permissionto actually act on your own
behalf because you can't justcome in.
There's an intellectual partand an emotional part.
You can intellectually knowthat you have to do it, but you
(03:42):
have to give yourself permissionfor the emotional part to do it
.
The fear, the anger, all thatstuff that you, that society,
said you can't let out of thiscontainer, you have to let out
the container.
Jerry (03:49):
Is there a way that you have to open them up to do that?
Donn (03:53):
Well, I use a lot of analogy and metaphor to be able
to get people to if they can getthe picture inside of their
head, and I sort of stack thelesson next to the picture.
Every time they think of thepicture they'll think of the
lesson.
So it's, it's very.
You know, I come fromNeanderthal ilk, right, I was.
I was raised in the Midwest, youknow, uh, everybody but us.
(04:15):
You know Bible of the or sorry,buckle of the Bible belt.
You know Southern Baptist,everybody but us is going to
hell type of deal, right.
And so when that whole rub somedirt on a pussy stuff was real
thick, you know you didn't cry,they didn't let you do that
stuff.
Yeah, it was weakness, you know.
You know the whole drill, right, right.
And so when I was in theMidwest and Oklahoma and then
(04:38):
traveled out to California, gotto California, became a police
officer and it just got, and itjust got drilled in there so, so
deep.
And you know it's not until you, you, we prepare our whole
entire life for that battle thatcomes from the outside in, but
we don't do any preparation forthe one that comes from the
inside out, right.
Jerry (04:57):
So I totally agree.
I've been thinking about this alot and I'm like you know, our
brain does all these crazythings to keep us safe, you know
.
And then I'm thinking but doesit really like it does?
Donn (05:08):
bad things to create to keep us safe too.
That's the, that's the part wedon't understand yeah, can you
go into that?
Yeah, well so we'll, we'll, wecreate defense mechanisms based
on the resources that we haveavailable to us, right it's.
And and if emotional resourceis not what we have available to
us, then we're going to createa defense mechanism.
In fact, do you mind if I justkind of go into the spiel a
(05:31):
little bit?
Jerry (05:31):
so I can kind of make sense of it.
Donn (05:33):
Yeah, so what you see behind me here is my little.
Four is greater than two.
The new mission, right?
Because there's three thingsthat have to happen in order for
change to actually occur.
It sounds really super obvious,but it's not, as that.
It's a little bit moreinsidious than people realize.
You got to acknowledge thatsomething's going on, right.
If you've been depressed for 20years, it's not who you are.
(05:56):
You've been depressed for 20years.
Lean into it, right.
You got to accept the level towhich that thing is negatively
affecting your life, right?
I only drink a little bit.
Yeah, everybody else in your,in your whole life thinks you're
an alcoholic, but until itchanges in you, it's not going
to change right, yeah and that'sthe third part, that that whole
, the new mission.
Right, you gotta, you gotta giveyourself permission to actually
(06:17):
act on your own behalf.
It sounds, I know, it soundskind of obvious, but the whole
point is that we've got thesebasic tenets.
If you're standing on thisgrain of sand that's hurtling
through space right now, thisapplies to you, it applies to
you, it applies to me, itapplies to everybody whose
container is full, everybodywhose container is empty.
(06:38):
It applies to everybody,because it applies to that thing
that you are before you'reanything else.
Man, woman, living on the otherside of the planet doesn't
matter.
You're a human being first, andyou need to be reminded of that
constantly, because that basiclevel of humanity is the thing
that was sort of put into yourbrain to protect yourself.
(06:59):
Say this is your brain, righthere, see my thumb here.
This is that first littlepeanut that grows up, that fight
, flight, fan or freeze thing.
Right, yeah, I speak about thisin a very non-scientific, uh,
bubble-headed way, becausethat's that's where I came from
and I know that I gotta, I gottaspeak to that in that way.
But this fight, flight, fan orfreeze thing, that's that first
(07:21):
little thing, you know, theamygdala that grows up back
there that's responsible foryour survival, right, and then
you get older and your brainstarts to develop.
You get higher functions, logic, reasoning, stuff like that
tucked way deep into the core ofthis thing is fight, flight,
fan or freeze.
The reason that swat, militaryand everybody you know,
professional athletes, stufflike that, train over and over
(07:42):
and over again is because when,when this thing turns on, this
is the shit going down.
The reason they put a survivalscript in here because this
isn't where our brain is, thisis where our reaction is right.
That fight thing, yeah, it'snot meant to think.
This doesn't have eyeballs, itdoesn't have ears, it's that
tunnel vision, all that stuff,right, and it's.
(08:03):
It's it's 10 of the big part ofyour brain, if it's anything,
and it's only meant to react.
But if you see, you know peoplein couples and they it's like
husband, wife or whatever oneperson goes into their brain.
Next thing, you know you're notcommunicating anymore and this
is two rams on a hillside Right,rams on a hillside right, yeah,
(08:29):
yeah, so so the idea is thatwhen this thing turns on, its
only goal is to be turned off.
It's a, it's a like a threat,and you and you're trying to
release or remove the threat sothat you can bring your
mainframe back online, right?
yeah there's not like an alarmthat goes off.
It says your wife is going tobe a bitch in five, four, three,
two.
She's going to say somethingabout your manhood in five, four
you know it just all of asudden turns on and you're in it
(08:50):
and you're not.
You're not like going.
Oh, what's this new land?
I'm in, no it.
It sneaks up on you and andguts you before you even know
what you're doing.
Right Cause, how many timeshave you ever gotten really
super mad, done something stupidand went oh, what did I do that
(09:11):
for?
That's this portion of yourbrain casting judgment on this
portion of your brain for doingthe only thing it knows how to
do, and it does it conveniently.
When it comes back online itgoes oh, I can't believe I did
that stupid thing.
It's like well, I can believeit because we're kind of dopey.
When we are in survival modewe're going to put whatever
resources available to us toenlist to try to survive.
(09:32):
Sometimes it's good, sometimesit's bad.
Make sense.
Jerry (09:36):
Yeah, I think most of the time it feels like it's bad in
everyday life.
Donn (09:43):
But think about it in everyday life.
Do you, do you practice yourresponses, your emergency
responses for emotions?
No, because you avoid them.
It becomes an atrophied muscle.
Jerry (09:56):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Donn (09:57):
And so it makes sense that we're we're kind of like I'm
not sure how to how to react inthis situation, so I'm going to
react in a way that's going togoing to maintain my survival.
Doesn't always do that Right,especially when it comes to,
like relationship survival.
Jerry (10:12):
Yeah, do you see in first responders that the main
reaction is anger?
Donn (10:17):
Anger is the medium with which people who are hurt and
afraid actually sort of expressthemselves.
Right?
Because and I'll go into this alittle farther I'm assuming
you've been to like a countyfair, right?
So what do you think ofwhenever you go to a county fair
, Like, what's the imagery thatyou see whenever you're at a
(10:38):
county fair?
Jerry (10:39):
A diverse group of people .
Donn (10:41):
Sure, you take a big deep breath.
What do you smell?
Yeah, food galore Tunnel.
Jerry (10:43):
You take a big deep breath.
What do you smell?
Yeah, food, galore, funnelcakes, corn dogs, ferris wheels,
all kinds of stuff like that.
Yeah.
Donn (10:49):
You know those, those water guns where the horses are
racing each other yeah.
Yeah, right.
So imagine every human being onthe planet, everybody.
They all have four horses andthat four, those four horses,
pull their team for their life.
Right, physical horse?
Right.
That's your physical identity.
If you're like a big strappingdude or a tiny person, if you're
(11:09):
in a gym, bro, or you're sick,all the time, it's your physical
identity and how important itis to you right.
Then there's your intellectualidentity Book smart versus
street smart, somewhere inbetween Social identity loner
cool kid in the group somewherein between Emotional identity.
Well, I'm speaking on behalf ofmyself.
(11:30):
This one, we're told, just goesback to the gate.
We're not allowed to use it, wejust weld the gate shut.
And these three are the oneswhere we develop our coping
mechanisms when things getphysically hard.
What do we do?
We fight, we work out, we workovertime to death right
Intellectually.
What do we do?
How many cops you know that cansolve everybody else's problem
(11:54):
but their own right?
I'm like really good, I'm atake charge guy, right.
Jerry (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah yeah.
I'll just laugh and leave it atthat.
Donn (12:03):
Well, so what do we do socially?
We go, we have choir practice,we drink.
We we're sitting here with thestuff boiling inside of us,
we're drinking and we're lookingat our partners and we're going
, wow, that call, that last call, was pretty crazy, huh.
And the other guy's like, yeah,whatever.
And so I look at him.
I don't see anything wrong withhim, but I'm wondering, gosh,
(12:24):
that boiling in my gut.
It must've been, it must bebecause there's something wrong
with me If it didn't bother himis.
I didn't ask him if it botheredhim, I just looked at him and
said I, you know, throughoutthat line, found out that he
didn't wasn't affected by it.
He was but yeah.
Right, but we, we develop thatinternal message that there's
something wrong with us if thatfeeling in our gut doesn't match
(12:46):
up what we're seeing over here.
Right, right, but what we don'trealize is that these three
become bullies.
Right, they become bullies.
They want to make sure that anyproblem that comes up in your
life is taken care of here andnot here.
Well, mind you, this whole timewe're stacking up stuff in that
(13:08):
emotional category, just going.
We can't put any color in thepainting because the color is
what makes it.
We can't, we just can't.
You can't go into everylife-changing, terrible, worst
situation for a person ever andfeel emotions, because it would
overwhelm us.
Right, right, so we just got toturn it off.
Okay, well, we get really goodat it, but we don't get rid of
(13:34):
it.
We just stack it up in herelike a Mount Everest pile of
shit, right, yeah.
And when we got space in thecontainer, it's okay.
But then we don't, we don'ttend to it.
It just starts stacking up,stacking up, stacking up.
Pretty soon, you know, to seethat slip of paper fall down
onto the top of that pile.
Comes and it kicks that gateopen with that emotional horse.
Well, that emotional horse islike a.
It's like a, it's like a babyhorse, and I don't know if
(13:56):
you've ever seen a baby horsebeing born.
It's like it's walking onstilts right, yeah.
Okay, it can't hold its ownweight, much less the weight of
an entire lifetime of ignoringit, and so it goes oh no, screw
that, I can't.
I can't do that.
That's why these guys, you knowand it breaks my heart to say
this, I don't do so cavalierly,but I've got to lean into it why
(14:17):
these guys are taking theirlives is because they're going
through all these differentthings and going well, I got
nothing left right, they don'teven consider this an option.
Because they need, because andthis is what it is you have to
give yourself permission to letthis guy out, because here's the
deal he's going to be afraid,he's going to not be good at it
automatically, and firstresponders, military folks,
(14:38):
they're like take charge, right,they got to be in control of
the situation, and this is asituation that you're not in
control of.
It's sort of like this is thismassive, scary thing, that
that's.
And when you come into it, it'slike a child.
And that's not to insultanybody, it's just to say that
that's what you had to do inorder to survive the situation
that you were in.
And a lot of these, a lot ofthese folks have, you know,
(15:00):
really, uh, lengthy traumaticpasts.
That don't you know, and so andso you're never really learning
how to do it.
And by the time you know,imagine a 75 year old man,
professional, best businessmanin the world, who never learned
how to ride a bike.
(15:21):
So he's got the helmet on, he'sgot the things on here and he
looks like a complete fool,right?
Well, nobody wants to putthemselves in a situation to
look like a fool when they'vealready established themselves
as a professional right yeah.
So the idea of getting intothat vulnerability, the v word
and and and having fear andsaying it's okay to be, uh, to
(15:42):
be afraid, in the situation he'snone of these guys want to do
that and he's guys, gals, ithappens across the board,
doesn't?
matter right and so and so they,they just and these three, like
I said, they're bullies.
They're the ones that arebasically saying so.
Imagine you heard somethingthat I said today.
You, you're like, hmm, I neverreally thought about it like
(16:04):
that.
And then tomorrow you wake upand you're like really super
depressed or maybe a littleangry.
Well, that's these three horsesgoing.
How dare you?
You should be ashamed ofyourself.
We've been taking care of youyour whole entire life.
Now you're going to let thisguy out.
You, there must be somethingwrong with you.
No, it's everything coming atyou at the same time telling you
you know, you can't talk tothese folks as you, you did this
(16:25):
and you've accomplished thisand you do all this kind of
stuff.
And it's like, well, if, if youdon't exercise that muscle,
then you can't be surprised whenyou go to put weight on it and
it's not there for it.
Jerry (16:36):
Yeah, no, I like the analogy.
I think it's really good.
I think it's definitelysomething that people can relate
to and remember when they'rewhen they're thinking about it.
Donn (16:45):
Well, and that's the idea, right, You're just trying to
remember in that time thathere's the thing when this thing
is on, your only goal is toturn it off.
It's not to make assessmentsabout your future, about your
relationship or anything likethat.
This is the zebra by thewatering hole drinking water
looking up, seeing the gatorcome up to get him and just
(17:06):
going boop.
You don't ever see the zebragoing, hey, let's talk about
this as they're running away,Right.
So you gotta, you gotta realizethat when you're in that mode,
the only thing you need to knowis oh, I'm in that mode, you
need to turn it off, Right.
Then, when the mainframe comesback online, then you can go all
right.
Well, that was pretty, pretty,pretty scary, but I recognize
(17:27):
the difference between thatswitch being on and off and when
you don't know that you'll do alot of really stupid shit yeah,
well, how do you get to thepoint of knowing that of like,
well, you?
you have to.
You have to be intentional, andI hate to, I hate to, I really
don't like the cliche stuff,right, but you do have to, you.
Well, the reason I wear this isto remind myself of that very
(17:50):
sort of oh duh, yes, I do needto remember I'm a human being,
right, and that's the idea isthat you'll you get it.
You attack it on the other side, you do your best to try to get
it in advance and keep it fromturning on, but your initial
reaction is to try to go ohright, this is not the brain
(18:11):
that I want representing me.
What do I got to do?
Okay, well, I need to breathe,right, because breathing is the
first thing you got to do.
You do your tactical breathingright.
Yeah, four seconds in foursecond, hold four second, exhale
four second, or you know what Imean?
Yeah, and so it's.
It's it's realizing that that'sthe first thing you did when you
were alive, was you breathedRight, and so this is going.
(18:36):
Oh, okay, this is on Right,cause you see these guys in
these these life and deathsituations just absolutely going
off the charts.
It's like, yeah, right, andeverybody, you, you always start
with breathing, because ifyou're not breathing properly,
then your heart rate's going tobe up there and you're trying to
basically match the respirationrate of the person that you
(18:56):
want to be, not the person thatyou are.
Right, yeah, you're basicallytrying to just get to the spot
where you're going.
Okay, because that's all.
Jerry (19:05):
All you need to remember is if I, if this, then this,
okay is there like so, creatingthat like that self-aware
awareness of being in that state, right?
Is there like?
Is there some tips you givepeople other than like, hey,
you're breathing like if younotice your breathing is up,
(19:27):
then you know you're in thisstate.
Donn (19:30):
Well, you're, you're trying to, you're trying to
basically make sure that youunderstand that if you're in
that state, that that you are,that that emotions are happening
sort of without your, withoutyour knowledge and approval
right, it doesn't schedule atime, doesn't ask for permission
and nothing like that.
So it's just about going okay,and an emotion is occurring and
(19:57):
you know, knowing how you react,knowing what your, what your
mechanism is, and going okay.
Well, what do I need to do?
Well, whatever's causing this,I need to get away from it right
now.
I need to de-ass the area,right?
Yeah, that way I can kind ofwalk around, pace around, do
whatever you got to do, breatheand then go all right, how am I
doing now?
Well, my heart rate's still 160,so I'm probably going to chill
(20:20):
out for a little bit, punch apunching bag and put a little
gap in there long enough forthat mainframe to come back
online.
And put a little gap in therelong enough for that mainframe
to come back online, because allyou're really trying to do is
to create that one little sortof memory device, that one
little key chain thing, onelittle thing that's going to
remind me oh right, when I'mupset this is not the place that
I want to have represent howthe rest of everything's going
(20:43):
to go.
That's why these shootingsituations are so volatile is
because this is on.
This is what's beingrepresented.
Jerry (20:50):
Everybody's trying to survive.
Donn (20:51):
Understandably, so Right.
Jerry (20:52):
Yeah, it's like the emotional cycle is in that, like
20 minutes, like the emotion.
Donn (21:00):
It's at least right and all you're really trying to do
is you're not.
Would we like to be perfect andsee it coming?
Yeah, sure, sure.
Jerry (21:07):
But do you?
Donn (21:07):
have a crystal ball?
You don't right.
Do you have a time machine?
Nope.
And can you read minds?
No, you can't.
The problem with with firstresponders is that they have to
sort of insert themselves inthat way, and this got to find
the thing that's coming and seewhere the thing is and try to
react and do all this kind ofstuff and it it doesn't.
(21:29):
It works when you're using theintellectual part of your brain.
It doesn't work when you'reusing the emotional part of your
brain.
Jerry (21:36):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's sometimes you kind of
can have a crystal ball, maybein a way.
Right Is like I haven't sleptwell for several days, so I know
myself when I'm like that I'mgoing to get snappy and that's
true.
Donn (21:51):
Yes, you can prepare for.
You can prepare for that typeof thing.
But when I talk about the wholecrystal ball thing, the idea
that you can predict.
Like you, you're alreadypredicting what that future
thing is, and your and your bodyis already predicting what that
future thing is, and your andyour body is already reacting to
that future thing when thefuture thing hasn't happened
yeah, right, yeah because itdoesn't like I said, it doesn't
(22:13):
have eyeballs or ears oranything like that.
It just basically takes yourconscious brain and says what?
There's a threat, okay.
Jerry (22:18):
Well then, turn it on yeah, I, I just some just
baffled this lately, I don'tknow why.
I just like, how are like minds, like it's not really keeping
me safe, it's just really justwinding you up right, it seems
like wound, like wind people upright there.
It's always goes to the likethe, the worst case scenarios
(22:41):
instead of like instead ofcatching yourself and going like
that.
Donn (22:45):
The problem is that that that mechanism worked somewhere
yeah right, but we.
But when we employ it everysingle time, we get really good
at it.
And you know you've heard theterm that when you have a hammer
, everything looks like a nailright yeah, well, when you, when
you're, when you react that wayso many times, when it's, even
when it's not merited, that'sthe way you're going to react,
(23:06):
right, right.
And so what does that numberstay over my shoulder there?
Jerry (23:12):
The four of the two.
Donn (23:13):
Four is greater than two right.
Mathematically that is 100%correct right, yeah yeah, okay.
So if you think about the firstresponder community, obviously
it can be very sociallychallenging.
You know what I mean.
Yes, because some of the bestfriends I had were some of the
most brutal back and forth.
(23:34):
You know the way they showedyou that they loved you was by
making fun of you.
Jerry (23:38):
Right, right, right.
You know if you've seen?
Donn (23:40):
this thing, this head's pretty big and I've got a lot of
you know, I've got a lot offriends that.
I got a lot of friends that, uh, you know, talk shit about the
size of my head, but that justshows that they love you, right.
Well, when you, when you get tothe spot where your container's
full and you're looking aroundand your whole entire life's
been well, I can't.
I can't feel emotions, I can'tdeal with this stuff and you're
(24:02):
so, you're kind of protecting it, and it just gets bigger and
bigger and bigger.
You got to, you got to realizethat that when you get up to the
cruising altitude of your lifeand the container gets full,
that you are going to have to dosomething about it, something's
going to have to change.
Well, in that community that'stough, because you already know
what the stigma is about.
You already know how you'vedealt with the people and
(24:23):
everybody knows who you are andhow you're dealing and stuff
like that.
So, and everybody knows who youare and how you're dealing and
stuff like that.
So, to put out there this thingthat makes you feel weak is
like you're, like I don't wantto do that, right.
And sometimes when you saysomething like that, your
partners and everybody who areused to you being this way will
(24:44):
get really uncomfortable, right.
Yeah sure, and theiruncomfortability isn't because
you're doing something wrong.
It's because they'reuncomfortable in your change,
right.
Jerry (24:53):
Yeah.
Donn (24:53):
But you have to do something about it.
You have to say I've got to dosomething different because what
is happening now isn't working.
And I'm just putting stuff inand I'm not taking stuff out,
right, but you have to rememberthat you're doing it for
yourself, not to them, right?
And so this, there's this.
If you think about, if youthink about physical,
(25:15):
intellectual, social, emotional,right.
Physically, you remember thefirst time you worked out.
Are you still holding onto adumbbell from the first time you
worked out?
No, no, why not?
Because at the time you toldyourself I'm going to put it
down, I'll try back againtomorrow, I'll get some rest,
try back again tomorrow andstart over.
Jerry (25:33):
Right yeah.
Donn (25:35):
Emotional.
We don't do that.
We just put it in there andjust go.
That's, that's where it's goingto stay.
And then you wonder why thisweight, after you keep adding to
it and adding to it, and addingto it and never giving yourself
permission to let it go thateventually it crushes you.
Jerry (25:49):
It's like so duh right, yeah, yeah, I mean we, we should
know better by now.
Donn (25:59):
Well, you know it's funny.
So on the inside of thisbracelet right here, it's the
word list.
It's the anti me word listcould, should, always, never,
but I don't know, supposed toexpectations.
And so, basically, when I askyou, do you have a crystal ball?
Okay, that means you can't seeinto the future.
Do you have a time machine?
(26:21):
Okay, that means that you can'tgo back into the past and
change anything that's alreadyhappened.
Mistakes are your mistakes,that's it.
You can't.
The only thing you can changeis the way you think about it.
And if you can't read minds,then because what's happening is
we're, we're telling ourselvesit could have you know at at
this incident that happened, Icould have done this, should
have done this, right.
(26:41):
Or when you think, always andnever, they're the absolutes,
they're the ones that basicallygo.
I've already decided how I'mgoing to think about this,
because she's always like thator he's never going to do that.
Right, yeah, and so it's.
Our language tells us about howwe think without it, without us
thinking Right, and so it kindof ties back down to this idea
that things could have beendifferent, should have been
(27:04):
different yeah, I think wordsare powerful.
Jerry (27:08):
I think how we, how we use them, and I always and I
catch myself a lot using some ofthose words always never, you
know and then I'm like that'snot really true.
Donn (27:20):
I mean well, if you really want to want it to be different
, whatever that thing is, youwant to be different.
You have to accept that theremight be part of it that you,
that that you may not be able tosay, well, I'm going to take
the reins of this and change it.
It's like, well, you're you, ifyou want to learn how to do
something, would you be taughtby somebody else?
I mean, it's kind of the ideaand just getting past yourself
(27:42):
to get to the point of teaching,to get to the point of what do
you mean?
I got to be afraid in thisprocess.
No, I can't do this.
Right, you have to giveyourself permission to do that.
That's tough.
It's the toughest part that'sabout.
My whole spiel is about gettingstarted, why you show up, why
you participate, why you'reworth it, why your family's
(28:03):
worth it, why you're notprotecting anybody by stuffing
all this crap down.
Right, you're not, you're not.
It's not protecting people.
You're just afraid to let it gobecause you're afraid you won't
be able to put it back in thecontainer right and I don't have
time.
Jerry (28:18):
I don't have time.
Donn (28:19):
That's, that's a classic.
Yeah, but I don't.
But I don't have time not toyeah, right, like I don't have
time to open up this containerand deal with it well, because,
well, the problem with that isthat you, that anybody that says
that, assumes that they alreadyknow how the process is going
to go.
Like it's going to be this.
I just I'm going to unpack itand not know how to pack.
Well, you didn't know how to doit before, so you have to
(28:41):
accept that there's going to bea new in a new terrain.
There's going to be placeswhere you stumble and fall and
get back up and get hurt andstuff like that, and you have to
say, well, I'm going to do itanyway because I need to get to
other.
So have you ever seen anybodyjumped to the top of Mount
Everest?
No, no, small steps and a guideright, you've got to be able to
say give yourself permission totake the small steps, to use a
(29:05):
guide if you if needed to, tomake sure that you're not trying
to do it all at once, becauseif you look at the top of Mount
Everest, you're going to be like, oh, it's too big, I can't do
it.
You just automatically do itRight, and you're right.
You may not be able to do itall at once, but when you go
into the gym, do you lift allthe weight in the first exercise
?
Jerry (29:25):
No, that's a physical thing.
It's not a physical thing, it'snot a mental thing, right well,
but that's.
But that's.
Donn (29:28):
The idea is that if you're trying to do that all at once,
then you're going to beoverwhelmed.
Jerry (29:32):
But yeah, yeah right.
Donn (29:34):
That's why you need a guide exactly somebody who's
been been to the top and theother side before you right,
yeah, yeah, and they can justmakes it things right a little
easier.
Jerry (29:47):
I, I think you know when you, when you have a guide, no
matter what you're, when you,when you have a guide, no matter
what you're doing, really, Imean, if you have a guide or
something that can teach you orhelp.
Donn (29:53):
I think you gotta be in a spot where you where you, where
you know that the person is notgoing to judge you because
you're already judging you Right, right, and so it's.
It's a, it's a real fine line towalk, to be able to be in a
room with somebody that doesn'twant to have anything to do with
you because they don't want tohave anything to do with the
process.
They've already decided that,right, yeah.
(30:21):
And so convincing somebody justto get past that first part,
where the work starts Is, is thekey.
It's the key because once, oncethat, once you get past that
and you kind of allow yourselfto engage in a process that will
, will walk down that path,there's a lot of people that can
help you, but there's not a lotof good, culturally competent
people out there that that kindof do this because they're, you
know, it's more for them, it'smore of a performance, right?
Jerry (30:42):
Yeah.
Donn (30:43):
And if anybody can sniff out a performance, it's the
first one.
Jerry (30:54):
That's true, that's true's true.
I mean, yes, being culturallycompetent is a huge, huge deal.
I mean you hear all the horrorstories you know right, they
could go on and tell all aboutthe horror stories of people
have gone to somebody's notculturally competent and they've
had disastrous, you know,encounters.
I'm sure there's been some thathave been great and some people
you know may, may like to havetheir therapist cry with them.
Donn (31:13):
More the exception than the rule, to be sure.
Jerry (31:15):
Yeah.
Donn (31:16):
Yeah.
Jerry (31:17):
So when I went through school.
Donn (31:18):
It was uh, you have to understand, I'm in the most
liberal state, in the most uhnow in the most literally the
other side of the spectrum, uh,sort of emotionally from where I
was at Right, yeah, yeah, andso coming in as a literally the
other side of the spectrum, sortof emotionally from where I was
at, right, yeah, yeah.
And so, coming in as amiddle-aged white male who
(31:38):
represents law enforcement,heterosexual white male who
represents law enforcement in aliberal profession, like a
ludicrously liberal profession,I was the devil.
Right, I was the devil and Ididn't know devil.
Right, I was the devil before,but I and I didn't know that.
Right.
And that was the tough part islike my whole desire to get into
police work was just to helppeople and not be bored, you
know.
And then when I got in there, Iwas like I just want to help
(32:00):
people but I didn't realize thatthere was this mass of hatred
that already existed, justbecause of who I was.
Jerry (32:07):
Right.
Donn (32:07):
Yeah, and so, ironically, I was in this cultural
competence class where they were, where we were, that I roll my
eyes every time I think aboutthis, but they actually
absolutely crushed me and I waslike, oh, I didn't expect that.
I was prepared for every otherbattle other than the one where
people were like we don't carehow you defend yourself, you're,
(32:28):
you're a racist, you're asexist, you're this, and just,
they just tore me to shreds,right, and it really, really
affected my thoughts on you knowwhether there are good, solid,
you know culturally competenttherapists out there to help
folks, because I was like, well,it applies to every other
culture other than the one thatI represent and I felt kind of
bad about that applies to everyother culture other than the one
(32:51):
that I represent and I feltkind of bad about that.
Jerry (32:52):
Yeah, I can imagine being in that situation and being you
know where you're at currentlyis.
Donn (32:56):
I won't do it twice.
Jerry (32:57):
Yeah, yeah, don.
How can people like reach outto you or follow you and see
what you're doing?
Donn (33:07):
Well, so I?
I don't encourage anybody toreach out to me but, to be
perfectly honest, I'm not tryingto advertise myself.
This is about the message.
I'm just trying to make surethat the people that need help
get help.
I don't have a real strongmarketing campaign, other than
the fact that if I could giveeverybody one of these and they
knew what it represented, thatI'd just pass them out.
(33:28):
But for the most part, if you goonto psychology today and you
look up Don with two N's lastBradley, you'll you'll find me
on there and be able to getahold of me.
Like I said, I'm not, I'm nottrying to, I'm not trying to
generate business and I notsaying I'm not turning anybody
away.
Yeah, I just want, I just wantfolks to know that that it is
about the message, not themessenger.
Jerry (33:47):
That it is about the message, not the messenger.
Yeah Well, and I mean, it'slike if people are listening to
this and they write some people,are I always the thirds right?
Some people will like you, somepeople won't, some people don't
care, you know, type of thingbut the people that want to like
you, know they, they want toreach out to you.
So that's why I always ask myguests like you know what, what?
Where can people follow or seeyou, don't you have?
Donn (34:08):
a website.
Well, I, I I'm that small thatI don't.
Just like I said, if you gointo psychology today, you'll be
able to track me down.
I'm out of Brentwood, california, but but the the key is this
it's what I'm telling you nowabout this whole, you know,
giving yourself permission thing.
I found that that's the firstuh, the message that I had given
(34:31):
, the first uh session witheverybody.
Now it doesn't matter, firstresponder, civilian, doesn't
matter, because it applies.
It applies to this idea that if, if, if you're hurting and you
want things to change, you gotto find out where you're
standing first before you canfind out how to get started.
Right, because if you, if, youthink you're over here and you
start and you go well, whyaren't I happy?
(34:52):
It's like because you're notstarting in the right fucking
place yet.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I didn'tmean to say like that you're
right, um, but it's, it's I justI basically what I do, is I
anybody that would call?
I'd take this message and I'd goand I'd show you how it applies
specifically to your life,because we get these ideas that
we already know who we are, howwe're, how we're sort of set up,
(35:14):
and I'm like, oh, that's,that's what I thought too.
Jerry (35:17):
Yes, surprise yeah, I'm always like still, I'm still
searching for who I am in someways.
I'm just not gotten there yet.
Donn (35:29):
Well, when we first start out, we have this internal
framework and boy is it way off.
Nothing's going to happen to us, we're going to be safe and
there's a structure around whowe are.
That's solid until it's not,until something happens, until
(35:50):
our career goes off in adifferent direction or we get
hurt, or something happens right, and then that shatters right.
And I'll give you, I'll giveyou a great example, um, of
someone who not a client, butbut someone who told me this
story and I thought it was aperfect example.
I use it all the time.
He pulls somebody over on thefree, on the freeway, goes to
(36:12):
get him a ticket, he's off tothe side of the road, he's got
his car set up, he's, he goes toget the ticket, comes back,
sits in his car, he's got hisdoor open and he's writing the
ticket out and all of a suddenhe looks up in his rear view
mirror and he realizes thatthere's a car, is about to
absolutely obliterate him inthat split second.
And it does it, you know,injures him, puts him off work
for like six months and he'sreally tore up right.
(36:34):
Well, he gets through all thatstuff, comes back to work and
then, and then, after a coupleof weeks, comes to see me and
what?
What I find out is uh well, hedidn't come to see me.
He came to.
I saw him actually out inpublic and he goes and he goes.
I just couldn't engage and Isaid, I said because there was
(36:56):
that oh shit moment where helooked in that rear view mirror
and he realized that that thatthought that he had about how he
was going to be able to torespond wasn't there.
He wasn't.
He realized that there wasnothing he could do about what
was about to happen to him andit scared him.
Well, when you got thisstructure, fear is not allowed
(37:18):
in there.
When it does, it just goes.
Well, you've got to go back inafter that and sort of
restructure that.
You have to acknowledge thatthat thing happened, acknowledge
that you were afraid,acknowledge that there was
nothing you could do about itand and say, okay, now, with
this in your past, what do youwant to have here?
What's the thing?
What's the thing that you wantto have here?
(37:39):
How do you want to reconstructit?
And because, if you're tryingto go back and and reconcile it
with this original structure,you're like, well, that doesn't
work anymore because fear camein and busted this up.
Jerry (37:50):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's.
Uh, sometimes we like in thatsituation.
You probably don't want toreally admit to very many people
that you were afraid, eventhough I'd be like I'm scared
shitless.
Donn (38:04):
You know, if I looked up and saw something is about to
crush me, Yep, well, and thosescenarios I have, all first
responders do what I like tocall their ABCs right.
And A is the event, thechronological event, the car
crash, the baby death, the this,the that.
Right, because first respondershave a laundry list of those
(38:24):
things.
Well, in column B it's the ohshit moment, that moment where
that sort of mascot picturewhere you look and go, this is
where it's happening.
Whatever happened, this iswhere it's happening.
The smell of something, thelook of something, the sound of
something or whatever.
That thing, that kind of drillsdown into you right.
(38:45):
Well, and then their C column iseither the value statement or
the unanswered question whywould God do this?
You know, like one of thosetypes of deals right yeah.
And what happens is we do thatwithout even thinking about it.
It's just like that, and it'sdefined with emotions, not words
(39:05):
, because if you've ever gotteninto a really emotional
situation, you're like I.
I don't remember what was said,I just remember how I felt
right, yeah, right well, that'sbecause our intellectual brain
is gone.
It's turned off.
Of course, you can't rememberthe words.
Jerry (39:20):
All you're doing is going , fear, scared, run right, right
, right, right, yeah, yeah, Don,it's been great talking to you.
I, I love all the uh thestories.
You know like I can remember.
You know the metaphors aregreat.
Donn (39:37):
Well, it's, it's, uh it.
Needless to say, I have uh,some people come in more than
once, so I have to remind them.
It takes it.
It takes a few swings of thehammer to make the nail flush
with the wood.
Jerry (39:51):
Fair, it's fair.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on today and I appreciate
your time.
Donn (39:57):
No problem, thanks for having me.
Jerry (39:59):
Yeah.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
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(40:22):
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Remember, the views andopinions expressed during the
show solely represent those ofour host and the current
(40:42):
episode's guest.
You.
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
podcast.
I'm your host, jerry Dean Lund,and if you haven't already done
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(00:22):
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So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isDon Bradley.
(00:43):
How are you doing, don?
Donn (00:44):
I'm doing great.
Thanks for having me on.
Jerry (00:46):
Yeah, thanks for being on .
Don introduce yourself to theaudience.
Donn (00:49):
My name is Don Bradley and I am a former police officer
with the city of Hayward inNorthern California and I'm now
a therapist who works with firstresponders, complex trauma,
ptsd, military personnel,basically just all the really
rough stuff.
People that you that don't wantto see a therapist, they're the
one.
They come and see me.
Jerry (01:11):
Why did?
Why did they want to come andsee you?
What's the difference?
Donn (01:14):
Well, because you know.
You know how bad the stigma is,you know how, how, how thick it
is out there and and and it'sstill very, very thick.
So when I get people that areforced to come in, either their
significant others make themcome in, or the court makes them
come in, or whatever, or theyjust get so so burnt out and fed
(01:37):
up and container full thatthey're like it's either this or
I'm going to take my own life,and I mean it's, it's gotten
that bad.
I hear an above average levelof, you know, suicidal talk and
stuff.
Jerry (01:50):
So they come to you because they can relate to you.
Donn (01:54):
Basically I'm kind of the no-nonsense guy.
See, I did the wholeanti-terrorism thing before.
So I did terrorism liaison,crime scene tech and stuff like
that.
No-transcript, let's get to it.
(02:26):
Because they don't like thetouchy, feely patch on the head
tell you everything's going tobe all right stuff.
They just like to, they like toget right into it.
So people seem to resonate withthat.
Jerry (02:36):
Yeah, I mean I, I think that's that's true, right, you
know you don't.
If you're there, I really thinkyou probably should be doing
the work.
I mean, you've made the bigstep of coming, so I think you
need to have that kind of nononsense to maybe pull them out,
right Out of their, theirmindset, maybe that they're in,
that they're being shut down.
Donn (02:55):
Well, my whole spiel comes from the idea that there's a
sort of acknowledgement that youhave to start that Like you
have to.
You know, I got this, this,this thing right here.
Well, you can see it behind mehere and I call it.
Four is greater than two.
The new mission, right, causewe always like to use that
tactical language.
Jerry (03:15):
That's right.
Donn (03:16):
And they and they like to have that cool new tool on their
belt and stuff like that.
So I'm just I'm kind of doingit in a funny sort of sneak past
your defenses way, but the longand short of it is that you
have to give yourself permissionto actually act on your own
behalf because you can't justcome in.
There's an intellectual partand an emotional part.
You can intellectually knowthat you have to do it, but you
(03:42):
have to give yourself permissionfor the emotional part to do it
.
The fear, the anger, all thatstuff that you, that society,
said you can't let out of thiscontainer, you have to let out
the container.
Jerry (03:49):
Is there a way that you have to open them up to do that?
Donn (03:53):
Well, I use a lot of analogy and metaphor to be able
to get people to if they can getthe picture inside of their
head, and I sort of stack thelesson next to the picture.
Every time they think of thepicture they'll think of the
lesson.
So it's, it's very.
You know, I come fromNeanderthal ilk, right, I was.
I was raised in the Midwest, youknow, uh, everybody but us.
(04:15):
You know Bible of the or sorry,buckle of the Bible belt.
You know Southern Baptist,everybody but us is going to
hell type of deal, right.
And so when that whole rub somedirt on a pussy stuff was real
thick, you know you didn't cry,they didn't let you do that
stuff.
Yeah, it was weakness, you know.
You know the whole drill, right, right.
And so when I was in theMidwest and Oklahoma and then
(04:38):
traveled out to California, gotto California, became a police
officer and it just got, and itjust got drilled in there so, so
deep.
And you know it's not until you, you, we prepare our whole
entire life for that battle thatcomes from the outside in, but
we don't do any preparation forthe one that comes from the
inside out, right.
Jerry (04:57):
So I totally agree.
I've been thinking about this alot and I'm like you know, our
brain does all these crazythings to keep us safe, you know
.
And then I'm thinking but doesit really like it does?
Donn (05:08):
bad things to create to keep us safe too.
That's the, that's the part wedon't understand yeah, can you
go into that?
Yeah, well so we'll, we'll, wecreate defense mechanisms based
on the resources that we haveavailable to us, right it's.
And and if emotional resourceis not what we have available to
us, then we're going to createa defense mechanism.
In fact, do you mind if I justkind of go into the spiel a
(05:31):
little bit?
Jerry (05:31):
so I can kind of make sense of it.
Donn (05:33):
Yeah, so what you see behind me here is my little.
Four is greater than two.
The new mission, right?
Because there's three thingsthat have to happen in order for
change to actually occur.
It sounds really super obvious,but it's not, as that.
It's a little bit moreinsidious than people realize.
You got to acknowledge thatsomething's going on, right.
If you've been depressed for 20years, it's not who you are.
(05:56):
You've been depressed for 20years.
Lean into it, right.
You got to accept the level towhich that thing is negatively
affecting your life, right?
I only drink a little bit.
Yeah, everybody else in your,in your whole life thinks you're
an alcoholic, but until itchanges in you, it's not going
to change right, yeah and that'sthe third part, that that whole
, the new mission.
Right, you gotta, you gotta giveyourself permission to actually
(06:17):
act on your own behalf.
It sounds, I know, it soundskind of obvious, but the whole
point is that we've got thesebasic tenets.
If you're standing on thisgrain of sand that's hurtling
through space right now, thisapplies to you, it applies to
you, it applies to me, itapplies to everybody whose
container is full, everybodywhose container is empty.
(06:38):
It applies to everybody,because it applies to that thing
that you are before you'reanything else.
Man, woman, living on the otherside of the planet doesn't
matter.
You're a human being first, andyou need to be reminded of that
constantly, because that basiclevel of humanity is the thing
that was sort of put into yourbrain to protect yourself.
(06:59):
Say this is your brain, righthere, see my thumb here.
This is that first littlepeanut that grows up, that fight
, flight, fan or freeze thing.
Right, yeah, I speak about thisin a very non-scientific, uh,
bubble-headed way, becausethat's that's where I came from
and I know that I gotta, I gottaspeak to that in that way.
But this fight, flight, fan orfreeze thing, that's that first
(07:21):
little thing, you know, theamygdala that grows up back
there that's responsible foryour survival, right, and then
you get older and your brainstarts to develop.
You get higher functions, logic, reasoning, stuff like that
tucked way deep into the core ofthis thing is fight, flight,
fan or freeze.
The reason that swat, militaryand everybody you know,
professional athletes, stufflike that, train over and over
(07:42):
and over again is because when,when this thing turns on, this
is the shit going down.
The reason they put a survivalscript in here because this
isn't where our brain is, thisis where our reaction is right.
That fight thing, yeah, it'snot meant to think.
This doesn't have eyeballs, itdoesn't have ears, it's that
tunnel vision, all that stuff,right, and it's.
(08:03):
It's it's 10 of the big part ofyour brain, if it's anything,
and it's only meant to react.
But if you see, you know peoplein couples and they it's like
husband, wife or whatever oneperson goes into their brain.
Next thing, you know you're notcommunicating anymore and this
is two rams on a hillside Right,rams on a hillside right, yeah,
(08:29):
yeah, so so the idea is thatwhen this thing turns on, its
only goal is to be turned off.
It's a, it's a like a threat,and you and you're trying to
release or remove the threat sothat you can bring your
mainframe back online, right?
yeah there's not like an alarmthat goes off.
It says your wife is going tobe a bitch in five, four, three,
two.
She's going to say somethingabout your manhood in five, four
you know it just all of asudden turns on and you're in it
(08:50):
and you're not.
You're not like going.
Oh, what's this new land?
I'm in, no it.
It sneaks up on you and andguts you before you even know
what you're doing.
Right Cause, how many timeshave you ever gotten really
super mad, done something stupidand went oh, what did I do that
(09:11):
for?
That's this portion of yourbrain casting judgment on this
portion of your brain for doingthe only thing it knows how to
do, and it does it conveniently.
When it comes back online itgoes oh, I can't believe I did
that stupid thing.
It's like well, I can believeit because we're kind of dopey.
When we are in survival modewe're going to put whatever
resources available to us toenlist to try to survive.
(09:32):
Sometimes it's good, sometimesit's bad.
Make sense.
Jerry (09:36):
Yeah, I think most of the time it feels like it's bad in
everyday life.
Donn (09:43):
But think about it in everyday life.
Do you, do you practice yourresponses, your emergency
responses for emotions?
No, because you avoid them.
It becomes an atrophied muscle.
Jerry (09:56):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Donn (09:57):
And so it makes sense that we're we're kind of like I'm
not sure how to how to react inthis situation, so I'm going to
react in a way that's going togoing to maintain my survival.
Doesn't always do that Right,especially when it comes to,
like relationship survival.
Jerry (10:12):
Yeah, do you see in first responders that the main
reaction is anger?
Donn (10:17):
Anger is the medium with which people who are hurt and
afraid actually sort of expressthemselves.
Right?
Because and I'll go into this alittle farther I'm assuming
you've been to like a countyfair, right?
So what do you think ofwhenever you go to a county fair
, Like, what's the imagery thatyou see whenever you're at a
(10:38):
county fair?
Jerry (10:39):
A diverse group of people .
Donn (10:41):
Sure, you take a big deep breath.
What do you smell?
Yeah, food galore Tunnel.
Jerry (10:43):
You take a big deep breath.
What do you smell?
Yeah, food, galore, funnelcakes, corn dogs, ferris wheels,
all kinds of stuff like that.
Yeah.
Donn (10:49):
You know those, those water guns where the horses are
racing each other yeah.
Yeah, right.
So imagine every human being onthe planet, everybody.
They all have four horses andthat four, those four horses,
pull their team for their life.
Right, physical horse?
Right.
That's your physical identity.
If you're like a big strappingdude or a tiny person, if you're
(11:09):
in a gym, bro, or you're sick,all the time, it's your physical
identity and how important itis to you right.
Then there's your intellectualidentity Book smart versus
street smart, somewhere inbetween Social identity loner
cool kid in the group somewherein between Emotional identity.
Well, I'm speaking on behalf ofmyself.
(11:30):
This one, we're told, just goesback to the gate.
We're not allowed to use it, wejust weld the gate shut.
And these three are the oneswhere we develop our coping
mechanisms when things getphysically hard.
What do we do?
We fight, we work out, we workovertime to death right
Intellectually.
What do we do?
How many cops you know that cansolve everybody else's problem
(11:54):
but their own right?
I'm like really good, I'm atake charge guy, right.
Jerry (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah yeah.
I'll just laugh and leave it atthat.
Donn (12:03):
Well, so what do we do socially?
We go, we have choir practice,we drink.
We we're sitting here with thestuff boiling inside of us,
we're drinking and we're lookingat our partners and we're going
, wow, that call, that last call, was pretty crazy, huh.
And the other guy's like, yeah,whatever.
And so I look at him.
I don't see anything wrong withhim, but I'm wondering, gosh,
(12:24):
that boiling in my gut.
It must've been, it must bebecause there's something wrong
with me If it didn't bother himis.
I didn't ask him if it botheredhim, I just looked at him and
said I, you know, throughoutthat line, found out that he
didn't wasn't affected by it.
He was but yeah.
Right, but we, we develop thatinternal message that there's
something wrong with us if thatfeeling in our gut doesn't match
(12:46):
up what we're seeing over here.
Right, right, but what we don'trealize is that these three
become bullies.
Right, they become bullies.
They want to make sure that anyproblem that comes up in your
life is taken care of here andnot here.
Well, mind you, this whole timewe're stacking up stuff in that
(13:08):
emotional category, just going.
We can't put any color in thepainting because the color is
what makes it.
We can't, we just can't.
You can't go into everylife-changing, terrible, worst
situation for a person ever andfeel emotions, because it would
overwhelm us.
Right, right, so we just got toturn it off.
Okay, well, we get really goodat it, but we don't get rid of
(13:34):
it.
We just stack it up in herelike a Mount Everest pile of
shit, right, yeah.
And when we got space in thecontainer, it's okay.
But then we don't, we don'ttend to it.
It just starts stacking up,stacking up, stacking up.
Pretty soon, you know, to seethat slip of paper fall down
onto the top of that pile.
Comes and it kicks that gateopen with that emotional horse.
Well, that emotional horse islike a.
It's like a, it's like a babyhorse, and I don't know if
(13:56):
you've ever seen a baby horsebeing born.
It's like it's walking onstilts right, yeah.
Okay, it can't hold its ownweight, much less the weight of
an entire lifetime of ignoringit, and so it goes oh no, screw
that, I can't.
I can't do that.
That's why these guys, you knowand it breaks my heart to say
this, I don't do so cavalierly,but I've got to lean into it why
(14:17):
these guys are taking theirlives is because they're going
through all these differentthings and going well, I got
nothing left right, they don'teven consider this an option.
Because they need, because andthis is what it is you have to
give yourself permission to letthis guy out, because here's the
deal he's going to be afraid,he's going to not be good at it
automatically, and firstresponders, military folks,
(14:38):
they're like take charge, right,they got to be in control of
the situation, and this is asituation that you're not in
control of.
It's sort of like this is thismassive, scary thing, that
that's.
And when you come into it, it'slike a child.
And that's not to insultanybody, it's just to say that
that's what you had to do inorder to survive the situation
that you were in.
And a lot of these, a lot ofthese folks have, you know,
(15:00):
really, uh, lengthy traumaticpasts.
That don't you know, and so andso you're never really learning
how to do it.
And by the time you know,imagine a 75 year old man,
professional, best businessmanin the world, who never learned
how to ride a bike.
(15:21):
So he's got the helmet on, he'sgot the things on here and he
looks like a complete fool,right?
Well, nobody wants to putthemselves in a situation to
look like a fool when they'vealready established themselves
as a professional right yeah.
So the idea of getting intothat vulnerability, the v word
and and and having fear andsaying it's okay to be, uh, to
(15:42):
be afraid, in the situation he'snone of these guys want to do
that and he's guys, gals, ithappens across the board,
doesn't?
matter right and so and so they,they just and these three, like
I said, they're bullies.
They're the ones that arebasically saying so.
Imagine you heard somethingthat I said today.
You, you're like, hmm, I neverreally thought about it like
(16:04):
that.
And then tomorrow you wake upand you're like really super
depressed or maybe a littleangry.
Well, that's these three horsesgoing.
How dare you?
You should be ashamed ofyourself.
We've been taking care of youyour whole entire life.
Now you're going to let thisguy out.
You, there must be somethingwrong with you.
No, it's everything coming atyou at the same time telling you
you know, you can't talk tothese folks as you, you did this
(16:25):
and you've accomplished thisand you do all this kind of
stuff.
And it's like, well, if, if youdon't exercise that muscle,
then you can't be surprised whenyou go to put weight on it and
it's not there for it.
Jerry (16:36):
Yeah, no, I like the analogy.
I think it's really good.
I think it's definitelysomething that people can relate
to and remember when they'rewhen they're thinking about it.
Donn (16:45):
Well, and that's the idea, right, You're just trying to
remember in that time thathere's the thing when this thing
is on, your only goal is toturn it off.
It's not to make assessmentsabout your future, about your
relationship or anything likethat.
This is the zebra by thewatering hole drinking water
looking up, seeing the gatorcome up to get him and just
(17:06):
going boop.
You don't ever see the zebragoing, hey, let's talk about
this as they're running away,Right.
So you gotta, you gotta realizethat when you're in that mode,
the only thing you need to knowis oh, I'm in that mode, you
need to turn it off, Right.
Then, when the mainframe comesback online, then you can go all
right.
Well, that was pretty, pretty,pretty scary, but I recognize
(17:27):
the difference between thatswitch being on and off and when
you don't know that you'll do alot of really stupid shit yeah,
well, how do you get to thepoint of knowing that of like,
well, you?
you have to.
You have to be intentional, andI hate to, I hate to, I really
don't like the cliche stuff,right, but you do have to, you.
Well, the reason I wear this isto remind myself of that very
(17:50):
sort of oh duh, yes, I do needto remember I'm a human being,
right, and that's the idea isthat you'll you get it.
You attack it on the other side, you do your best to try to get
it in advance and keep it fromturning on, but your initial
reaction is to try to go ohright, this is not the brain
(18:11):
that I want representing me.
What do I got to do?
Okay, well, I need to breathe,right, because breathing is the
first thing you got to do.
You do your tactical breathingright.
Yeah, four seconds in foursecond, hold four second, exhale
four second, or you know what Imean?
Yeah, and so it's.
It's it's realizing that that'sthe first thing you did when you
were alive, was you breathedRight, and so this is going.
(18:36):
Oh, okay, this is on Right,cause you see these guys in
these these life and deathsituations just absolutely going
off the charts.
It's like, yeah, right, andeverybody, you, you always start
with breathing, because ifyou're not breathing properly,
then your heart rate's going tobe up there and you're trying to
basically match the respirationrate of the person that you
(18:56):
want to be, not the person thatyou are.
Right, yeah, you're basicallytrying to just get to the spot
where you're going.
Okay, because that's all.
Jerry (19:05):
All you need to remember is if I, if this, then this,
okay is there like so, creatingthat like that self-aware
awareness of being in that state, right?
Is there like?
Is there some tips you givepeople other than like, hey,
you're breathing like if younotice your breathing is up,
(19:27):
then you know you're in thisstate.
Donn (19:30):
Well, you're, you're trying to, you're trying to
basically make sure that youunderstand that if you're in
that state, that that you are,that that emotions are happening
sort of without your, withoutyour knowledge and approval
right, it doesn't schedule atime, doesn't ask for permission
and nothing like that.
So it's just about going okay,and an emotion is occurring and
(19:57):
you know, knowing how you react,knowing what your, what your
mechanism is, and going okay.
Well, what do I need to do?
Well, whatever's causing this,I need to get away from it right
now.
I need to de-ass the area,right?
Yeah, that way I can kind ofwalk around, pace around, do
whatever you got to do, breatheand then go all right, how am I
doing now?
Well, my heart rate's still 160,so I'm probably going to chill
(20:20):
out for a little bit, punch apunching bag and put a little
gap in there long enough forthat mainframe to come back
online.
And put a little gap in therelong enough for that mainframe
to come back online, because allyou're really trying to do is
to create that one little sortof memory device, that one
little key chain thing, onelittle thing that's going to
remind me oh right, when I'mupset this is not the place that
I want to have represent howthe rest of everything's going
(20:43):
to go.
That's why these shootingsituations are so volatile is
because this is on.
This is what's beingrepresented.
Jerry (20:50):
Everybody's trying to survive.
Donn (20:51):
Understandably, so Right.
Jerry (20:52):
Yeah, it's like the emotional cycle is in that, like
20 minutes, like the emotion.
Donn (21:00):
It's at least right and all you're really trying to do
is you're not.
Would we like to be perfect andsee it coming?
Yeah, sure, sure.
Jerry (21:07):
But do you?
Donn (21:07):
have a crystal ball?
You don't right.
Do you have a time machine?
Nope.
And can you read minds?
No, you can't.
The problem with with firstresponders is that they have to
sort of insert themselves inthat way, and this got to find
the thing that's coming and seewhere the thing is and try to
react and do all this kind ofstuff and it it doesn't.
(21:29):
It works when you're using theintellectual part of your brain.
It doesn't work when you'reusing the emotional part of your
brain.
Jerry (21:36):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's sometimes you kind of
can have a crystal ball, maybein a way.
Right Is like I haven't sleptwell for several days, so I know
myself when I'm like that I'mgoing to get snappy and that's
true.
Donn (21:51):
Yes, you can prepare for.
You can prepare for that typeof thing.
But when I talk about the wholecrystal ball thing, the idea
that you can predict.
Like you, you're alreadypredicting what that future
thing is, and your and your bodyis already predicting what that
future thing is, and your andyour body is already reacting to
that future thing when thefuture thing hasn't happened
yeah, right, yeah because itdoesn't like I said, it doesn't
(22:13):
have eyeballs or ears oranything like that.
It just basically takes yourconscious brain and says what?
There's a threat, okay.
Jerry (22:18):
Well then, turn it on yeah, I, I just some just
baffled this lately, I don'tknow why.
I just like, how are like minds, like it's not really keeping
me safe, it's just really justwinding you up right, it seems
like wound, like wind people upright there.
It's always goes to the likethe, the worst case scenarios
(22:41):
instead of like instead ofcatching yourself and going like
that.
Donn (22:45):
The problem is that that that mechanism worked somewhere
yeah right, but we.
But when we employ it everysingle time, we get really good
at it.
And you know you've heard theterm that when you have a hammer
, everything looks like a nailright yeah, well, when you, when
you're, when you react that wayso many times, when it's, even
when it's not merited, that'sthe way you're going to react,
(23:06):
right, right.
And so what does that numberstay over my shoulder there?
Jerry (23:12):
The four of the two.
Donn (23:13):
Four is greater than two right.
Mathematically that is 100%correct right, yeah yeah, okay.
So if you think about the firstresponder community, obviously
it can be very sociallychallenging.
You know what I mean.
Yes, because some of the bestfriends I had were some of the
most brutal back and forth.
(23:34):
You know the way they showedyou that they loved you was by
making fun of you.
Jerry (23:38):
Right, right, right.
You know if you've seen?
Donn (23:40):
this thing, this head's pretty big and I've got a lot of
you know, I've got a lot offriends that.
I got a lot of friends that, uh, you know, talk shit about the
size of my head, but that justshows that they love you, right.
Well, when you, when you get tothe spot where your container's
full and you're looking aroundand your whole entire life's
been well, I can't.
I can't feel emotions, I can'tdeal with this stuff and you're
(24:02):
so, you're kind of protecting it, and it just gets bigger and
bigger and bigger.
You got to, you got to realizethat that when you get up to the
cruising altitude of your lifeand the container gets full,
that you are going to have to dosomething about it, something's
going to have to change.
Well, in that community that'stough, because you already know
what the stigma is about.
You already know how you'vedealt with the people and
(24:23):
everybody knows who you are andhow you're dealing and stuff
like that.
So, and everybody knows who youare and how you're dealing and
stuff like that.
So, to put out there this thingthat makes you feel weak is
like you're, like I don't wantto do that, right.
And sometimes when you saysomething like that, your
partners and everybody who areused to you being this way will
(24:44):
get really uncomfortable, right.
Yeah sure, and theiruncomfortability isn't because
you're doing something wrong.
It's because they'reuncomfortable in your change,
right.
Jerry (24:53):
Yeah.
Donn (24:53):
But you have to do something about it.
You have to say I've got to dosomething different because what
is happening now isn't working.
And I'm just putting stuff inand I'm not taking stuff out,
right, but you have to rememberthat you're doing it for
yourself, not to them, right?
And so this, there's this.
If you think about, if youthink about physical,
(25:15):
intellectual, social, emotional,right.
Physically, you remember thefirst time you worked out.
Are you still holding onto adumbbell from the first time you
worked out?
No, no, why not?
Because at the time you toldyourself I'm going to put it
down, I'll try back againtomorrow, I'll get some rest,
try back again tomorrow andstart over.
Jerry (25:33):
Right yeah.
Donn (25:35):
Emotional.
We don't do that.
We just put it in there andjust go.
That's, that's where it's goingto stay.
And then you wonder why thisweight, after you keep adding to
it and adding to it, and addingto it and never giving yourself
permission to let it go thateventually it crushes you.
Jerry (25:49):
It's like so duh right, yeah, yeah, I mean we, we should
know better by now.
Donn (25:59):
Well, you know it's funny.
So on the inside of thisbracelet right here, it's the
word list.
It's the anti me word listcould, should, always, never,
but I don't know, supposed toexpectations.
And so, basically, when I askyou, do you have a crystal ball?
Okay, that means you can't seeinto the future.
Do you have a time machine?
(26:21):
Okay, that means that you can'tgo back into the past and
change anything that's alreadyhappened.
Mistakes are your mistakes,that's it.
You can't.
The only thing you can changeis the way you think about it.
And if you can't read minds,then because what's happening is
we're, we're telling ourselvesit could have you know at at
this incident that happened, Icould have done this, should
have done this, right.
(26:41):
Or when you think, always andnever, they're the absolutes,
they're the ones that basicallygo.
I've already decided how I'mgoing to think about this,
because she's always like thator he's never going to do that.
Right, yeah, and so it's.
Our language tells us about howwe think without it, without us
thinking Right, and so it kindof ties back down to this idea
that things could have beendifferent, should have been
(27:04):
different yeah, I think wordsare powerful.
Jerry (27:08):
I think how we, how we use them, and I always and I
catch myself a lot using some ofthose words always never, you
know and then I'm like that'snot really true.
Donn (27:20):
I mean well, if you really want to want it to be different
, whatever that thing is, youwant to be different.
You have to accept that theremight be part of it that you,
that that you may not be able tosay, well, I'm going to take
the reins of this and change it.
It's like, well, you're you, ifyou want to learn how to do
something, would you be taughtby somebody else?
I mean, it's kind of the ideaand just getting past yourself
(27:42):
to get to the point of teaching,to get to the point of what do
you mean?
I got to be afraid in thisprocess.
No, I can't do this.
Right, you have to giveyourself permission to do that.
That's tough.
It's the toughest part that'sabout.
My whole spiel is about gettingstarted, why you show up, why
you participate, why you'reworth it, why your family's
(28:03):
worth it, why you're notprotecting anybody by stuffing
all this crap down.
Right, you're not, you're not.
It's not protecting people.
You're just afraid to let it gobecause you're afraid you won't
be able to put it back in thecontainer right and I don't have
time.
Jerry (28:18):
I don't have time.
Donn (28:19):
That's, that's a classic.
Yeah, but I don't.
But I don't have time not toyeah, right, like I don't have
time to open up this containerand deal with it well, because,
well, the problem with that isthat you, that anybody that says
that, assumes that they alreadyknow how the process is going
to go.
Like it's going to be this.
I just I'm going to unpack itand not know how to pack.
Well, you didn't know how to doit before, so you have to
(28:41):
accept that there's going to bea new in a new terrain.
There's going to be placeswhere you stumble and fall and
get back up and get hurt andstuff like that, and you have to
say, well, I'm going to do itanyway because I need to get to
other.
So have you ever seen anybodyjumped to the top of Mount
Everest?
No, no, small steps and a guideright, you've got to be able to
say give yourself permission totake the small steps, to use a
(29:05):
guide if you if needed to, tomake sure that you're not trying
to do it all at once, becauseif you look at the top of Mount
Everest, you're going to be like, oh, it's too big, I can't do
it.
You just automatically do itRight, and you're right.
You may not be able to do itall at once, but when you go
into the gym, do you lift allthe weight in the first exercise
?
Jerry (29:25):
No, that's a physical thing.
It's not a physical thing, it'snot a mental thing, right well,
but that's.
But that's.
Donn (29:28):
The idea is that if you're trying to do that all at once,
then you're going to beoverwhelmed.
Jerry (29:32):
But yeah, yeah right.
Donn (29:34):
That's why you need a guide exactly somebody who's
been been to the top and theother side before you right,
yeah, yeah, and they can justmakes it things right a little
easier.
Jerry (29:47):
I, I think you know when you, when you have a guide, no
matter what you're, when you,when you have a guide, no matter
what you're doing, really, Imean, if you have a guide or
something that can teach you orhelp.
Donn (29:53):
I think you gotta be in a spot where you where you, where
you know that the person is notgoing to judge you because
you're already judging you Right, right, and so it's.
It's a, it's a real fine line towalk, to be able to be in a
room with somebody that doesn'twant to have anything to do with
you because they don't want tohave anything to do with the
process.
They've already decided that,right, yeah.
(30:21):
And so convincing somebody justto get past that first part,
where the work starts Is, is thekey.
It's the key because once, oncethat, once you get past that
and you kind of allow yourselfto engage in a process that will
, will walk down that path,there's a lot of people that can
help you, but there's not a lotof good, culturally competent
people out there that that kindof do this because they're, you
know, it's more for them, it'smore of a performance, right?
Jerry (30:42):
Yeah.
Donn (30:43):
And if anybody can sniff out a performance, it's the
first one.
Jerry (30:54):
That's true, that's true's true.
I mean, yes, being culturallycompetent is a huge, huge deal.
I mean you hear all the horrorstories you know right, they
could go on and tell all aboutthe horror stories of people
have gone to somebody's notculturally competent and they've
had disastrous, you know,encounters.
I'm sure there's been some thathave been great and some people
you know may, may like to havetheir therapist cry with them.
Donn (31:13):
More the exception than the rule, to be sure.
Jerry (31:15):
Yeah.
Donn (31:16):
Yeah.
Jerry (31:17):
So when I went through school.
Donn (31:18):
It was uh, you have to understand, I'm in the most
liberal state, in the most uhnow in the most literally the
other side of the spectrum, uh,sort of emotionally from where I
was at Right, yeah, yeah, andso coming in as a literally the
other side of the spectrum, sortof emotionally from where I was
at, right, yeah, yeah.
And so, coming in as amiddle-aged white male who
(31:38):
represents law enforcement,heterosexual white male who
represents law enforcement in aliberal profession, like a
ludicrously liberal profession,I was the devil.
Right, I was the devil and Ididn't know devil.
Right, I was the devil before,but I and I didn't know that.
Right.
And that was the tough part islike my whole desire to get into
police work was just to helppeople and not be bored, you
know.
And then when I got in there, Iwas like I just want to help
(32:00):
people but I didn't realize thatthere was this mass of hatred
that already existed, justbecause of who I was.
Jerry (32:07):
Right.
Donn (32:07):
Yeah, and so, ironically, I was in this cultural
competence class where they were, where we were, that I roll my
eyes every time I think aboutthis, but they actually
absolutely crushed me and I waslike, oh, I didn't expect that.
I was prepared for every otherbattle other than the one where
people were like we don't carehow you defend yourself, you're,
(32:28):
you're a racist, you're asexist, you're this, and just,
they just tore me to shreds,right, and it really, really
affected my thoughts on you knowwhether there are good, solid,
you know culturally competenttherapists out there to help
folks, because I was like, well,it applies to every other
culture other than the one thatI represent and I felt kind of
bad about that applies to everyother culture other than the one
(32:51):
that I represent and I feltkind of bad about that.
Jerry (32:52):
Yeah, I can imagine being in that situation and being you
know where you're at currentlyis.
Donn (32:56):
I won't do it twice.
Jerry (32:57):
Yeah, yeah, don.
How can people like reach outto you or follow you and see
what you're doing?
Donn (33:07):
Well, so I?
I don't encourage anybody toreach out to me but, to be
perfectly honest, I'm not tryingto advertise myself.
This is about the message.
I'm just trying to make surethat the people that need help
get help.
I don't have a real strongmarketing campaign, other than
the fact that if I could giveeverybody one of these and they
knew what it represented, thatI'd just pass them out.
(33:28):
But for the most part, if you goonto psychology today and you
look up Don with two N's lastBradley, you'll you'll find me
on there and be able to getahold of me.
Like I said, I'm not, I'm nottrying to, I'm not trying to
generate business and I notsaying I'm not turning anybody
away.
Yeah, I just want, I just wantfolks to know that that it is
about the message, not themessenger.
Jerry (33:47):
That it is about the message, not the messenger.
Yeah Well, and I mean, it'slike if people are listening to
this and they write some people,are I always the thirds right?
Some people will like you, somepeople won't, some people don't
care, you know, type of thingbut the people that want to like
you, know they, they want toreach out to you.
So that's why I always ask myguests like you know what, what?
Where can people follow or seeyou, don't you have?
Donn (34:08):
a website.
Well, I, I I'm that small thatI don't.
Just like I said, if you gointo psychology today, you'll be
able to track me down.
I'm out of Brentwood, california, but but the the key is this
it's what I'm telling you nowabout this whole, you know,
giving yourself permission thing.
I found that that's the firstuh, the message that I had given
(34:31):
, the first uh session witheverybody.
Now it doesn't matter, firstresponder, civilian, doesn't
matter, because it applies.
It applies to this idea that if, if, if you're hurting and you
want things to change, you gotto find out where you're
standing first before you canfind out how to get started.
Right, because if you, if, youthink you're over here and you
start and you go well, whyaren't I happy?
(34:52):
It's like because you're notstarting in the right fucking
place yet.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I didn'tmean to say like that you're
right, um, but it's, it's I justI basically what I do, is I
anybody that would call?
I'd take this message and I'd goand I'd show you how it applies
specifically to your life,because we get these ideas that
we already know who we are, howwe're, how we're sort of set up,
(35:14):
and I'm like, oh, that's,that's what I thought too.
Jerry (35:17):
Yes, surprise yeah, I'm always like still, I'm still
searching for who I am in someways.
I'm just not gotten there yet.
Donn (35:29):
Well, when we first start out, we have this internal
framework and boy is it way off.
Nothing's going to happen to us, we're going to be safe and
there's a structure around whowe are.
That's solid until it's not,until something happens, until
(35:50):
our career goes off in adifferent direction or we get
hurt, or something happens right, and then that shatters right.
And I'll give you, I'll giveyou a great example, um, of
someone who not a client, butbut someone who told me this
story and I thought it was aperfect example.
I use it all the time.
He pulls somebody over on thefree, on the freeway, goes to
(36:12):
get him a ticket, he's off tothe side of the road, he's got
his car set up, he's, he goes toget the ticket, comes back,
sits in his car, he's got hisdoor open and he's writing the
ticket out and all of a suddenhe looks up in his rear view
mirror and he realizes thatthere's a car, is about to
absolutely obliterate him inthat split second.
And it does it, you know,injures him, puts him off work
for like six months and he'sreally tore up right.
(36:34):
Well, he gets through all thatstuff, comes back to work and
then, and then, after a coupleof weeks, comes to see me and
what?
What I find out is uh well, hedidn't come to see me.
He came to.
I saw him actually out inpublic and he goes and he goes.
I just couldn't engage and Isaid, I said because there was
(36:56):
that oh shit moment where helooked in that rear view mirror
and he realized that that thatthought that he had about how he
was going to be able to torespond wasn't there.
He wasn't.
He realized that there wasnothing he could do about what
was about to happen to him andit scared him.
Well, when you got thisstructure, fear is not allowed
(37:18):
in there.
When it does, it just goes.
Well, you've got to go back inafter that and sort of
restructure that.
You have to acknowledge thatthat thing happened, acknowledge
that you were afraid,acknowledge that there was
nothing you could do about itand and say, okay, now, with
this in your past, what do youwant to have here?
What's the thing?
What's the thing that you wantto have here?
(37:39):
How do you want to reconstructit?
And because, if you're tryingto go back and and reconcile it
with this original structure,you're like, well, that doesn't
work anymore because fear camein and busted this up.
Jerry (37:50):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's.
Uh, sometimes we like in thatsituation.
You probably don't want toreally admit to very many people
that you were afraid, eventhough I'd be like I'm scared
shitless.
Donn (38:04):
You know, if I looked up and saw something is about to
crush me, Yep, well, and thosescenarios I have, all first
responders do what I like tocall their ABCs right.
And A is the event, thechronological event, the car
crash, the baby death, the this,the that.
Right, because first respondershave a laundry list of those
(38:24):
things.
Well, in column B it's the ohshit moment, that moment where
that sort of mascot picturewhere you look and go, this is
where it's happening.
Whatever happened, this iswhere it's happening.
The smell of something, thelook of something, the sound of
something or whatever.
That thing, that kind of drillsdown into you right.
(38:45):
Well, and then their C column iseither the value statement or
the unanswered question whywould God do this?
You know, like one of thosetypes of deals right yeah.
And what happens is we do thatwithout even thinking about it.
It's just like that, and it'sdefined with emotions, not words
(39:05):
, because if you've ever gotteninto a really emotional
situation, you're like I.
I don't remember what was said,I just remember how I felt
right, yeah, right well, that'sbecause our intellectual brain
is gone.
It's turned off.
Of course, you can't rememberthe words.
Jerry (39:20):
All you're doing is going , fear, scared, run right, right
, right, right, yeah, yeah, Don,it's been great talking to you.
I, I love all the uh thestories.
You know like I can remember.
You know the metaphors aregreat.
Donn (39:37):
Well, it's, it's, uh it.
Needless to say, I have uh,some people come in more than
once, so I have to remind them.
It takes it.
It takes a few swings of thehammer to make the nail flush
with the wood.
Jerry (39:51):
Fair, it's fair.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on today and I appreciate
your time.
Donn (39:57):
No problem, thanks for having me.
Jerry (39:59):
Yeah.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
If you know someone that wouldbe great on the show, please get
ahold of our host, jerry DeanLund, through the Instagram
handles at Jerry Fire and Fuelor at Enduring the Badge Podcast
(40:22):
, also by visiting the show'swebsite,
enduringthebadgepodcastcom, foradditional methods of contact
and up-to-date informationregarding the show.
Remember, the views andopinions expressed during the
show solely represent those ofour host and the current
(40:42):
episode's guest.
You.
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