August 6, 2024 • 38 mins
Have you ever wondered what it's like to grow up with a parent who's constantly on the front lines of justice? Catherine Boyle, daughter of a Special Victims Unit Lieutenant in Philadelphia, opens up about her childhood and the unique challenges faced by children of law enforcement officers. Our conversation sheds light on the ripple effects of her father's demanding job on family dynamics and the crucial need to address the mental health of first responders' children. Catherine's transition from the fashion industry to becoming a passionate advocate for police officers and their families is truly inspiring.
Balancing the intense emotional demands of law enforcement with family life is no small feat. In this episode, Catherine and I discuss the profound challenges first responders face when transitioning from traumatic work environments to nurturing their homes. We underscore the importance of creating a supportive home environment, setting boundaries, and the pivotal role leadership plays in promoting a healthy work-life balance. Through heartfelt stories, we illustrate how strong leadership can prioritize mental health initiatives and cultivate a family-first approach, ultimately making a world of difference for first responders.
As we wrap up, Catherine shares insights from her own podcast, "Beyond the Uniform, with the LT's Daughter," where she delves into the lives of active and retired police officers and their families. A particularly impactful episode with Dr. Erin Craw highlights how adult behavior influences children, drawing from personal experiences and stress management strategies. Catherine also hints at an exciting future project that promises to be a thrilling topic for an upcoming episode. Don't miss out on this heartfelt and eye-opening discussion, and remember to stay connected with us through our Instagram handles and website for the latest updates.
As a First Responder, you are critical in keeping our communities safe. However, the stress and trauma of the job can take a toll on your mental health and family life.
If you're interested in personal coaching, contact Jerry Lund at 801-376-7124. Let's work together to get you where you want to be and ensure a happy and healthy career.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jerry (00:02):
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
podcast.
I'm your host, jerry Dean Lund,and if you haven't already done
so, please take out your phoneand hit that subscribe button.
I don't want you to miss anupcoming episode.
And, hey, while your phone'sout, please give us a rating and
review.
On whichever platform youlisten to this podcast on, such
as iTunes, apple Podcasts andSpotify, it helps this podcast
(00:22):
grow and the reason why, whenthis gets positive ratings and
reviews, those platforms likeApple Podcasts and Spotify show
this to other people that neverlistened to this podcast before,
and that allows our podcast togrow and make more of an impact
in other people's lives.
So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isCatherine Boyle.
(00:43):
How you doing, catherine?
Katherine (00:44):
I'm good Thanks.
How are you?
Jerry (00:46):
I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for being ontoday.
We're going to kind of take alittle bit of a different angle
than I normally take on thepodcast.
I'm excited.
Katherine (00:55):
Yeah, I'm really excited to chat with you.
Jerry (00:57):
But that's kind of sad that I take this little bit
different twist to it, becausewhat we're talking about today
is kind of being left out right,yeah, exactly, and that's why
I'm doing what I'm doing,because I don't.
Katherine (01:13):
I'm alone in this space, so I'm honored to kind of
have the opportunity to bespeaking up.
Jerry (01:17):
Awesome, Catherine.
You know, tell the audience alittle bit about yourself.
Katherine (01:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
My name is Catherine and I grewup in Philadelphia.
I was the daughter of SpecialVictims Unit Lieutenant, also in
Philadelphia, and then all ofmy uncles and many of my male
cousins also became Philadelphiapolice officers because they
followed in their father'sfootsteps.
I personally moved to New Yorkfor college.
(01:45):
I lived there for 12 yearswhere I worked in the fashion
industry, and while I was thereI kind of began to realize the
connection that I had to lawenforcement, how I felt when I
would see the NYPD officers, howI wanted to support them and
let them know that I wassupportive of them and what they
(02:07):
did for our communities and Iwould.
I found myself Googling how canI support law enforcement?
And a lot of times the resultswould be like donate to this
nonprofit, here's this nonprofit, and I love that.
That's all wonderful, but frommy perspective, I really wanted
them to know that there arecivilians out there who love
(02:29):
them and genuinely appreciatewhat they do.
I wanted to be in it with them,boots on the ground and just
really there for them in any wayI could be, and so Googling was
(02:51):
not getting me anywhere,although it did find me the New
York City Police DepartmentCitizens Academy, which was a
really cool experience, but,yeah, that got me nowhere.
It kind of took a backseat andthen fast forward a little bit.
2020 happened.
Obviously, the riots were verymuch in my face.
I had people that I once lovedand called friends participating
in the riots and questioning meand my ethics and my morals and
how I could support police andthings of that nature, and it
(03:13):
was a wild ride, to say theleast, from my perspective, just
because when I'm on my socialmedia and talking to these
people, all I could think of was, like that's someone's mother
or father, like how do you notregister that information?
And so at the time, I washaving a lot of trouble sleeping
at night because it was just onmy mind all the time, and you
(03:35):
know, they say that's when thebest ideas come to you.
And so one night I just hadthis kind of light bulb moment
where I needed to like figure itout, I needed to do something,
and so my initial thought waslike an online community,
because I personally kind ofhave benefited from, you know,
the Facebook groups of the world.
There was like a world in whichthat could work for cops, cause
(04:07):
obviously I understand.
You know there's nuances andwhat these conversations kind of
kept coming back to was myintroduction and how I talked
about my dad and my relationshipwith my dad.
And I would be having thesethese conversations and the
police officer or retired cop orwhoever it was would be like,
wow, my kid doesn't would nottalk about me the way you're
(04:27):
talking about your dad, or Idon't have that kind of
relationship with my kids.
And I'm having these calls andthe and the person on the other
side was having these likerevelations right in front of me
and I was.
I was like I never registeredthat this was a thing and that
this was happening and this ishappening right in front of me.
And so, after many of thoseconversations and many years of
(04:50):
just kind of thinking about it,I decided that this is kind of
where we need to kind of starttalking about things, because
we're talking more and moreabout mental health, which is
incredible and I love that but Ithink this is a world, an area,
where the information islacking and the conversation is
lacking, like how is your joband the outlets that you're
(05:13):
developing affecting yourchildren?
Jerry (05:18):
Yeah, I I've been teaching or have taught like
mental health classes, you know,to first responders, peer
support classes and and thingslike that, and very rarely is
there something that I comeacross it's driven for kids
right Of a first responder, likeprograms or like information.
(05:40):
There's just not a lot outthere and I think we don't
understand how the job impactsthem and we know it impacts our
spouses or significant others,but we don't really understand
the impact on the kids.
Katherine (05:56):
Yeah, exactly, and that's why these people were
having that revelation, like ittook talking to the adult child
of a police officer for them tokind of recognize it.
And, and the thing is, it makessense if you think about it,
because your spouse can likesmack you across the face and be
like, stop taking on so muchovertime, like what's wrong with
you.
And you know, they cancommunicate, even if it's not
(06:18):
necessarily effectivecommunication.
They can voice their experience.
But the child doesn'tnecessarily have the vocabulary,
they don't necessarily have theawareness that something is
wrong or that whatever is wrongmight be stemming from mom or
dad's job or mom or dad'sschedule or whatever.
That is so just kind ofbringing that awareness and that
(06:40):
as the adult you might have toopen up some of those
conversations with your children.
Jerry (06:46):
Yeah, I think that's really important to sit down
with them and try to maybeanswer some of their questions
that they have in anon-confrontational way, right
In the right setting.
Katherine (06:59):
Yeah, exactly.
Jerry (07:02):
What other like?
What was the common theme, likethe underlying theme, did they
just not?
Think about my parents well,just the underlying thing that
you come across with theofficers that you're talking to.
Katherine (07:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah, it was something that they had just
never thought about and and forsome of them they had adult
kids and they were like, oh wow,now things are making sense.
I don't have a relationshipwith my kid.
Maybe this is why, or we wentthrough this really rough patch
and we figured it out, but thisis where it stemmed from, and so
(07:36):
there was just a lot ofretrospective or introspective,
like revelations happening.
Some of them, it was like someof them had younger kids and
they were like I want my kid togrow up and have your story and
(07:56):
have your experience and be ableto say and feel the things that
you're saying and feeling.
So it really did like kind ofrun the gambit.
And then there were also somepeople who were like, oh yeah,
now I have an open dialogue withmy adult child and we talk
about these things that he orshe struggled with and, wow, as
(08:17):
their parent, I wish I couldhave done something back then.
And so, again, I think, justbringing the awareness and
starting those conversationsyounger, or even if they're not
conversations because I feellike that can sort of feel a
little like sticky or nervewracking or even like
unnecessary but just being therebeing present, making the most
(08:42):
of whatever time you do havewith the child or the children
and just like building it intoyour everyday life, because my
parents didn't necessarily havelike sit down, down and out
conversations with us, but westill had, you know, a really
great upbringing and family unitand again here I am sort of
(09:06):
trying to share that.
Jerry (09:08):
Yeah, what.
What did your family unit looklike?
Katherine (09:12):
Yeah, so my parents and then I have an older sister
and a younger brother and we areall very different, but growing
up it was just one thing that Isort of talk about and I give
credit to my parents for is thatthey normalized everything
about our life, so like whateverhappened in Sally Smith's house
(09:34):
didn't really matter, becausethat's just not how our family
operated and it wasn't like abig topic of discussion, it was
just like this is how we dothings, that's how she does
things, and so they reallynormalized some of the nuances
in the police realm and I thinkthat that helped a lot Because,
(09:55):
again, we felt like home wasvery, very safe.
It was where we could be safe,it was where a lot of our
friends can be safe, and thatjust kind of perpetuated itself.
Obviously, we had our teenyears and our struggling years,
but in general home was alwayssafe.
And then, even to this day,we're all very close and we all
(10:19):
get together for dinners orgatherings or what have you at
my parents' house, and it's justlike a little mini reunion
every month.
Jerry (10:28):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
Katherine (10:30):
Yeah, it's really nice.
Jerry (10:33):
I'm just trying to think, you know, I have three, three
daughters and uh, all differentas well, you know, and all
different perspectives, um, onmy career and what they saw and
and things like that.
You know, kind of going back towhat you said, you know they're
like the overtime, shifts andstuff like that.
They would always be like dad,you work so hard, you know, and
(10:54):
they and they still say thattoday, today, like you're such a
hard worker and everything, andI'm like kind of feels like
makes me like I wasn't present,which I probably wasn't.
Katherine (11:06):
Have you ever asked them.
Jerry (11:08):
I'm just curious, um, not straight up like that, actually
not, because I kind of get thatvibe from some of the stories
and stuff that they they say andthings that they say, but I
have never straight up askedthem yeah because I do.
You think it's hard for as afirst responder, like parent, do
you?
Katherine (11:30):
I think it can be for sure.
I think there's.
You know, there's a lot ofthings that can lead to that,
whether it's the trauma thatthey see on the job, whether
it's the peer pressure which Ithink is a big thing that can
kind of happen on the on, likebehind the doors, on the back
end, like come out drinkingafter your shift, hang out with
(11:51):
the guys or whatever it is.
After your shift, hang out withthe guys or whatever it is, and
then you know what you'reseeing.
If you don't either know how tocompartmentalize or have some
sort of routine that you can do,it's like you just go home and
you're smacked in the face with,like a bunch of kids who just
want to like hang out and playand scream in your space.
(12:12):
Um, so I definitely think it's.
It's not easy by any stretch ofthe imagination, but I do think
it's worth it because it's it'syour future and it's your kids'
futures and it really doesdetermine the trajectory of your
relationship with them andtheir relationships going
(12:34):
forward them?
Jerry (12:34):
Yeah, definitely.
Katherine (12:35):
And their relationships going forward.
Jerry (12:37):
Oh, yeah, true, Very true .
I know transitions were veryhard for me.
Transition to work or to comehome were difficult.
So I had to like figure out howto navigate those because, yeah
, those transitions I mean forme before shift, I would get a
little more amped up, a littlemore uptight, a little, you know
(12:58):
, more focused on work, lessfocused on home.
And then coming home, thattransition was difficult for me.
If I came home and the housewas up and everybody was just
going crazy to me, you know, andI was like I can't do this, I
like I need some like calmnessbefore I interject myself into
(13:20):
the family.
So, trying to master those,those transitions were were
difficult but they were worth it.
As I got better at it, I reallywish I could have implemented a
lot more of that earlier on inmy career.
Katherine (13:36):
And the thing is, you don't know what you don't know,
so that's not something thatyou're taught at the academy.
And if you're joining theacademy at 21, 22 years old.
That's not something you'regoing to think about.
You probably don't have kids.
You probably don't have aspouse or a partner You're 22.
The world is your oyster,you're 23.
You don't think about the ideathat there's going to be
(13:58):
compounding trauma that's goingto impact you and then there's
going to be just the sheeroverstimulation, because if you
walk in the door and kids arejumping up at you and all these
things, so it's not somethingyou think about, it's not
something that the academybrings up.
It might be something that youhave someone in leadership bring
up down the road, but you'renot prepared for it and, again,
(14:20):
you don't know what you don'tknow.
And so that's why I think theseconversations and what you're
doing and what more people inthis space are doing is so
important, because thattransition period, especially if
you have kids, important,because that transition period,
especially if you have kids, isimperative and until it's
(14:41):
brought to your attention andyou accept that it's a thing and
that it's something that youneed to establish and whatever
it looks like.
For my dad it was kind of builtin because he had a very
long-ish drive home and I thinkthat that was kind of built in
for him.
But whatever it looks like,whether it's your long drive
listening to a podcast,listening to your favorite song,
going for a drive around theblock a few times before you
actually walk into the house Ifyou have a partner, maybe the
(15:03):
partner takes the kids out ofthe house for a few minutes,
maybe you go to the gym beforeyou go home.
Whatever it's going to looklike, it's really important to
establish something, even ifit's only like you can fit a few
minutes in.
You need to do something.
We're human beings and youcan't be expected to go from
what you're seeing on the joband what you're experiencing on
(15:25):
the job to like mommy, daddymode, like that.
Jerry (15:30):
Yeah, no, very true.
There's lots of stories thatkind of caught my attention.
You know the officers or firstresponders go through this
horrible incident and then youknow, come home and they have to
make this transition after,like you know, this horrible
incident could then you know anofficer involved shooting and
then come home to be this loving, loving parent is really
(15:54):
difficult, or I don't know.
Sometimes like, depending onthe situation, may not even be
possible to like come home andhave a good interaction.
Katherine (16:03):
I feel like Exactly, and that's going back to like
how this kind of started duringthe riots.
I was like how is this personthat I'm looking at on my phone
who people are throwing thingsat him, people are throwing fake
blood at him, like how is hesupposed to go home and feed his
(16:23):
children or wake them up forschool tomorrow?
Like he's literally supposed tomake that transition and that's
I don't think that's humanlypossible.
And so you know that's againhow it started was like this
kind of mindset.
You know that's again how itstarted was like this kind of
mindset, mental health, takingcare of yourself concept.
And then, you know it, it doestrickle down to your kids
because there's no way that thatcan happen to you and it can't.
(16:46):
It doesn't impact your kidbecause you're going to have to
take that home with you in someway.
Jerry (16:53):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And then the last place youwant to take things out is at
home, because, uh, right, but ifyou're not happy at home, I
feel like it's can bechallenging, very challenging,
to be happy at work and viceversa.
Right, it's once again, it'sthose, those things that just
stay with you to occupy yourmind instead of being present.
(17:16):
I think is one way to put it.
Katherine (17:18):
Yeah, and the more synchronistic and like at peace
and settled and just normalizedthings are at home, the less you
have to think about outside ofyour job.
You can go and just be presentat work because you don't have
to worry about.
You know what your kids arestruggling with or what your
wife said this morning, or youknow whatever nonsense is
(17:40):
happening at home.
You don't have to worry aboutit because home is good.
You're taking care of it, evenif it's not perfect.
You're doing your due diligenceas a family to do the best you
can and make the best ofeverything you have, and then
you can show up 100% at work.
Jerry (17:59):
Yeah, and 100% at home, right.
Katherine (18:02):
Right, exactly.
Jerry (18:03):
As much as possible depending.
I know because people work forthese smaller departments, and
then they're like there's no daythat I don't interact with work
, you know, type of thing, whichis really unfortunate, because
I think it doesn't help anofficer or whoever downregulate
themselves, right, they're stillon that edge because my phone's
(18:26):
going off or I'm getting emailsor text messages and stuff like
that, and so I think it justalways heightens you up where at
home you want to be like themost downregulated possible,
right, it's supposed to be yoursafest place.
Katherine (18:41):
Yeah, exactly Exactly , and it can be hard, especially
for, like you said, some of thesmaller departments.
They're less staffed, they'reunderstaffed, they've got a lot
of mandatory overtime and thingslike that, and so that's where
the concept of doing the bestyou can kind of comes into play.
And sometimes I talk about it,but my family was Philadelphia
(19:03):
police, so I don't have a ton ofpersonal experience with some
of those smaller departments,but I do think that in some
instances some instances, notall of them, it is honestly it
does come down to a matter ofboundaries and putting up your
own boundaries and putting yourfoot down when you need to, like
(19:23):
.
You know, hey chief, hey Sarge,hey, whoever, my kid's sick or
you know this is going on athome and this is really what
matters right now because it'smy child.
You know this is going on athome and this is really what
matters right now because it'smy child, you know.
Jerry (19:39):
And hopefully you would get some understanding back.
And I'm like I'm torn becauseI'm like I think of some people
like yeah, I don't really careabout your boundaries.
You know you're still anemployee here and I need you,
and you know yeah.
And.
Katherine (20:00):
I think that that's also just like part of this
bigger conversation that we'restarting to have more of.
And again, the mental healthpiece and and getting leadership
in on things, because that's,you know, it's really hard,
especially for those smallerdepartments, it's really hard to
execute on some of these mentalhealth topics that we talk
(20:21):
about if leadership is kind ofon their own world, in their own
world, on their own planet,whatever it is, you know, we
really need to continue to justtalk about it and and get
leadership on board.
And that's one thing that Ithink was also unique about my
(20:41):
dad, because he was a Lieutenant, so he was a leader and he had
this perspective.
He had this family firstperspective and he would
actually like hold presentationsfor the younger cops to explain
to them like this is a job,this is what you need to be
really great at when you're atwork, and then this is also
(21:04):
really important If you have afamily, go home and be with your
family, and so, again, justleaders need to get on the ball
and kind of work with their guysand gals, because leading with
an iron fist is not going to getanyone anywhere and it's only
going to perpetuate all of theproblems that people like you
(21:27):
and I in this space talk aboutyeah, I always have these, like
you know, as a guest, like talksand stuff like that.
Jerry (21:37):
I always have these things like visions and memories
of things that have likehappened and gone on in the past
, and then I'm like, uh, that'sso many great learning lessons
from them.
They're talking aboutleadership.
Yeah, they do have to be onboard, but most of them that
I've seen they say they're onboard but aren't really going
through the actions of being onboard.
(21:58):
And part of that is, if you'rehaving your officers take mental
health classes, why aren't you?
Because you're not exempt fromit.
Katherine (22:09):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that that actually,now that you say that that's
almost another, just like Idon't want to say problem, but
it's like another concept.
It's almost like they're sayingI don't, I don't remember what
that old adage is, but like foryou, not for me, like it might
be a problem for you, but, butI'm, I'm chilling, I'm good, but
again, that's perpetuating theproblem.
(22:32):
If, if you're, you know, notacknowledging that you know you
might also need to focus onthings outside of work, again,
it's just a matter ofperpetuating the problem.
And I think everyone kind ofneeds to do a little bit more
introspection and take a look attheir life and their boundaries
(22:55):
and their values and, um, it's,it's definitely you know, again
, everything I'm doing,everything people in this mental
health for first respondersspace is doing, it's, it's all
adding up, but it's all part ofsomething a lot bigger.
(23:16):
Like this is.
This is a bit of a um, I don'twant to say a monster, but it's
like a big it's a big monster,you know it's going to take a
lot.
It's things have been the waythey've been for a really long
time.
Um, but I I think that you knowwe can only go on like that for
(23:37):
so long, and things need tostart to change, especially as
the world changes.
Jerry (23:43):
Yeah, I think.
I mean, it's just straight up.
Your family needs to beincorporated to some of these
trainings that happen.
You know, like spouses andstuff like that.
You get in front of some ofthese these trainings to
understand what the officers aregoing through and how they can
help them and how they can makethe family unit better and how
(24:05):
you know to interact with thekids could be better if we did
these different things.
Katherine (24:10):
Yeah.
Jerry (24:12):
What?
What do you suggest?
I know you talk about a lot ofopen communication and stuff
like that, but what do yousuggest?
I know you talk about a lot ofopen communication and stuff
like that, but what do yousuggest for somebody that may be
listening and be like, okay,this is kind of hidden, true to
me.
What action steps should I takenext?
Katherine (24:27):
I think starting to be intentional with your time
can go a really long way.
I actually just talked aboutthis on my page the other day,
but when my there was a seasonwhere my dad was like going
through some sort of transitionand he was put on nights again
when we were like when I waslike 10 to 12 ish and he was put
(24:48):
on nights again, and that wasvery foreign to us, we were kind
of confused by it and what hedid was when he would come home
from his night shift, he wouldwake us up for school so that he
could see us, he could be therewhen we woke up, he could spend
a little bit of time with usand then he would go to bed and
then my mom would take over.
(25:08):
And I think that's justsomething so small that he
probably didn't really thinkabout outside of.
I want to see my kids.
And we definitely never thoughtabout I only just thought about
it, like the other day, um,cause he was just being dad, he
was doing his job of waking usup, um, but those little things
(25:29):
really do make an impact.
I mean, it's something that Iremember to this day, um, and I
again, I think, just like makingthe most of your time.
So again, he squeezed that inright before he went to bed,
after coming home from his shift.
Maybe it's like going for adrive with one of your kids, or
taking them out for ice creambefore a shift or after a shift,
(25:52):
or on your day off, or makingyour days off a little extra
special.
And I think one thing I want tomention especially present day.
This was not an issue when Iwas growing up, but when you are
home, putting your phone downand yes, maybe you have to like
take a work call here and there,but like not playing the games
(26:15):
or being on the social media or,you know, not like farting
around on your phone work is onething, but just being
distracted by your phone is awhole nother thing in this
social media world.
That that I'm sure we couldtalk about for a long time, um,
but.
but I think that just being morepresent if you don't want to
have the conversations or maybeyou're not ready to have the
conversations that just beingmore present if you don't want
(26:36):
to have the conversations ormaybe you're not ready to have
the conversations, just beingmore present and making it very,
very clear to your childrenthat you are present and that
you do love them, will go areally long way yeah, I think
being present is is huge becauseyou're saying that you could.
Jerry (26:53):
Yeah, right, I don't really want to deal with these
problems at home.
I'm just going to numb myselfby scrolling, you know, through
social media and they're like,oh whoa, where did time go?
And I could have actually donesomething meaningful or
worthwhile with one of my kidsor my spouse, or something like
that.
I think it also comes down tobeing planned, right, not just
(27:14):
going to oh, I'm going to try todo this, I'm going, I'm
thinking about doing this, like,if you don't plan it, it's
probably not going to happen.
Katherine (27:24):
Exactly, yeah, and even if it's not like very
specific plans, what I saysometimes it's just like the
intentionality of whatever it isOkay.
The intentionality of whateverit is Okay.
This is my day off, this iswhat I'm going to do on my day
off, and maybe that's spend fromthree to four with Sally, and
(27:45):
from four to five I'm going tohelp my wife or husband make
dinner.
Like it doesn't have to besuper specific, where it's like
all right, we've got tickets tothe zoo at 1 pm and if you get
called into work we're screwed.
Like it doesn't need to be thatspecific, but making sure that
you are laying the groundworkand laying the foundation for
(28:06):
what your intent is to do withthe free time that you have with
your loved ones.
Jerry (28:14):
Yes, especially in right.
I feel like this is world isgetting busier and busier, more
things come and rob you of yourof your time.
So, yeah, like that, just likeit doesn't have to be locked
down.
I mean, sure, some things youknow vacations and things like
that, you know lockdown, but youknow, getting the opportunity
(28:37):
to spend time with your kids orhelp your spouse or whatever,
like that can be almost donelike anytime, long as the
intention is there to to helpthem or do something for them or
recognize them or be presentwith them, like I think think we
underestimate how smart kidsare.
Katherine (28:56):
Yes, and how much they like absorb yes.
Jerry (29:00):
Yeah, you don't think they're listening or watching,
but they are definitelylistening and watching.
Just watch them.
Mimic you some way.
Katherine (29:07):
Yeah, that's such a good point People always talk
about like how their kids startto do like what they do.
My best friend's son will likepretend he's drinking coffee
because she drinks coffee.
So yeah, if you just thinkabout they're like little
sponges.
So even if it doesn't registerto you, or if something doesn't
register to the way you wouldregister it as an adult, doesn't
(29:31):
mean that their little brainisn't registering it in some
other way, doesn't?
Jerry (29:35):
mean that their little brain isn't registering it in
some other way?
Yeah, yeah, definitely,catherine.
So you have this.
You're a podcaster as well.
You have, you have a page.
Let's talk a little bit aboutyourself.
Katherine (30:00):
Yeah, I have a podcast it's called Beyond the
Uniform, with the LT's daughter,and I interview active and
retired police officers as wellas adult children of police
officers.
It's a little bit harder tofind them and get them on the
show, but I have been, you know,trying to get more of them to
get different perspectives.
You know I have my perspectivebut I like to hear others and
share other stories.
So that's kind of who Iinterview.
I love the opportunity to givethese people a platform to share
(30:23):
their stories and theirexperiences.
I think it's really cool andreally powerful.
Instagram is the LTS daughter,where I kind of share some of my
experiences and the lessons andthe things I've learned along
the way and along this journey.
Um, and I I also through mycompany beyond the uniform, I
(30:45):
host events mostly in person inthe Philadelphia area.
I don't have any lined up rightnow.
I'm hoping to have a pretty bigone in November.
Um, but yeah, I host events forlaw enforcement and they're
typically and their spouses,because if the officer is going
to, you know better themselvesand better their knowledge, but
(31:07):
their spouse is not on board,it's it's just not going to work
.
Um, so for the officer andtheir spouse and, um, and yeah,
I'm, I'm working on somethingelse behind the scenes, but it's
it's not done quite yet, so Ican't give too much information
about that.
But stay tuned.
Jerry (31:25):
That sounds exciting.
Katherine (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, I'm very excited.
Jerry (31:29):
You know the the part about, uh, interviewing your,
your adult child like adultchildren of police officers and
stuff like that.
I had my daughter on my podcastyears back but sadly the audio
didn't record Only this littletiny little few-minute section
recorded and stuff.
So it's super sad about that.
(31:49):
But getting her on the otherside and doing the podcast, she
told me things that she hadnever told me before.
Getting her on the other side,you know, and doing the podcast,
she told me things that she hadnever told me before.
Katherine (32:00):
Wow.
Jerry (32:02):
And they weren't super great things I wanted to hear,
to be honest.
Katherine (32:06):
Oh yeah, I was going to ask what was that like for
you?
Jerry (32:13):
It was hard.
I mean, I was just like, hey,just say what you have to say.
I know sometimes ourrelationship's a little strained
and her perception of maybewhat happened during her
childhood and my perception are,you know, two different things,
but it was a little rough.
I think it might have been alittle therapeutic for both of
us.
But, um, the interesting part,years ago she didn't want to
(32:37):
have anything to do with being afirst responder or anything
like that, and now she findsherself kind of following in my
footsteps a little bit.
So she's, she's working, uh,for an agency as a intermediate
or advanced emt, so on anambulance wow, that's quite a
180.
Katherine (32:56):
Good for her, that's awesome.
Jerry (32:58):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think it'd be fascinating.
So I would encourage people tolisten to Catherine's podcast
because maybe it'll pick up somethings that you can use to
better you know your family, andthe better your family unit is,
I think the less stress you'llhave, and the less stress you
have probably is going to leadless impact on your mental
(33:20):
health.
Katherine (33:21):
Yes, and it'll also serve you into retirement or
into whenever you leave the job,because the relationships that
you put the work into will stillbe there once the job is not.
Jerry (33:34):
Right, because the job doesn't last forever.
Katherine (33:37):
It does not Public service announcement Right.
Jerry (33:43):
Nor should you try to make it last forever.
Katherine (33:45):
Yeah, no, please don't.
Jerry (33:49):
Catherine, it was awesome to have you on.
Is there something that wedidn't cover that you think
maybe the audience needs to knowto have you on?
Is there something that wedidn't?
Katherine (33:55):
cover that you think maybe the audience needs to know
.
I will say there is an episodeof my podcast with the guest's
name is Dr Erin Craw.
She is incredible.
She's also the daughter of apolice officer, but she has a
very different story.
Her dad, she was a totaldaddy's girl, loved her dad with
(34:15):
everything ineller.
But it's just a really great um,just an eyeopening interview, I
(34:43):
think, because one thing thatI've noticed is people will say
and this isn't just firstresponders but people will say
I'm not drinking a bottle a day,I'm not falling asleep blackout
every night, I'm not doing X, yand Z.
Joe Schmo is doing X, y and Z,so I'm fine.
But that's not the only tell.
(35:07):
There are other things thatcould be going on or other
things that your little spongescould be picking up on, even if
it's not black and white in yourface.
So I would highly recommend ifanyone of retiring and she was
20.
And that's it's kind of aheartbreaking story and again,
(35:41):
she talks more about it in thepodcast.
But I think there are a lot, of, a lot of lessons that can be
taken from from her experience.
Jerry (35:51):
Yeah, that sounds like a would be a powerful episode to
listen to.
The thought I had when you sayyou know Joe Schmo is doing this
and you know you're doing thisand so's like someone can eat
terribly and they can lookskinny all the time and someone
(36:19):
eats, you know, healthy and theymay still be overweight.
Like what you're doing affectsyou differently than what
somebody else is doing.
You can't do the same,necessarily the same things, and
maybe you have to put your ownlittle tweak on them.
Katherine (36:33):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really great example.
Actually, it's so easy tojustify things.
Jerry (36:38):
Yeah.
So, yeah, definitely Well,catherine, it's been a pleasure
having you on.
I really appreciate it.
Katherine (36:45):
Thank you, this was an honor.
I really appreciate having meon.
Jerry (36:48):
Yeah, thank you.
We'll have to have you back onwhen your super secret thing is
done.
Katherine (36:52):
Yes, I would love that.
I will definitely be in touch.
I'm very, very excited so okay,me too, thank you.
Jerry (37:01):
Thanks.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
If you know someone that wouldbe great on the show, please get
a hold of our host, jerry DeanLund, through the Instagram
handles.
That would be great on the show.
Please get a hold of our host,jerry Dean Lund, through the
Instagram handles atJerryFireAndFuel or at
(37:22):
EnduringTheBadgePodcast, also byvisiting the show's website,
enduringthebadgepodcastcom, foradditional methods of contact
and up-to-date informationregarding the show.
Remember, the views andopinions expressed during the
show solely represent those ofour host and the current
(37:44):
episode's guest.
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
podcast.
I'm your host, jerry Dean Lund,and if you haven't already done
so, please take out your phoneand hit that subscribe button.
I don't want you to miss anupcoming episode.
And, hey, while your phone'sout, please give us a rating and
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On whichever platform youlisten to this podcast on, such
as iTunes, apple Podcasts andSpotify, it helps this podcast
(00:22):
grow and the reason why, whenthis gets positive ratings and
reviews, those platforms likeApple Podcasts and Spotify show
this to other people that neverlistened to this podcast before,
and that allows our podcast togrow and make more of an impact
in other people's lives.
So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isCatherine Boyle.
(00:43):
How you doing, catherine?
Katherine (00:44):
I'm good Thanks.
How are you?
Jerry (00:46):
I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for being ontoday.
We're going to kind of take alittle bit of a different angle
than I normally take on thepodcast.
I'm excited.
Katherine (00:55):
Yeah, I'm really excited to chat with you.
Jerry (00:57):
But that's kind of sad that I take this little bit
different twist to it, becausewhat we're talking about today
is kind of being left out right,yeah, exactly, and that's why
I'm doing what I'm doing,because I don't.
Katherine (01:13):
I'm alone in this space, so I'm honored to kind of
have the opportunity to bespeaking up.
Jerry (01:17):
Awesome, Catherine.
You know, tell the audience alittle bit about yourself.
Katherine (01:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
My name is Catherine and I grewup in Philadelphia.
I was the daughter of SpecialVictims Unit Lieutenant, also in
Philadelphia, and then all ofmy uncles and many of my male
cousins also became Philadelphiapolice officers because they
followed in their father'sfootsteps.
I personally moved to New Yorkfor college.
(01:45):
I lived there for 12 yearswhere I worked in the fashion
industry, and while I was thereI kind of began to realize the
connection that I had to lawenforcement, how I felt when I
would see the NYPD officers, howI wanted to support them and
let them know that I wassupportive of them and what they
(02:07):
did for our communities and Iwould.
I found myself Googling how canI support law enforcement?
And a lot of times the resultswould be like donate to this
nonprofit, here's this nonprofit, and I love that.
That's all wonderful, but frommy perspective, I really wanted
them to know that there arecivilians out there who love
(02:29):
them and genuinely appreciatewhat they do.
I wanted to be in it with them,boots on the ground and just
really there for them in any wayI could be, and so Googling was
(02:51):
not getting me anywhere,although it did find me the New
York City Police DepartmentCitizens Academy, which was a
really cool experience, but,yeah, that got me nowhere.
It kind of took a backseat andthen fast forward a little bit.
2020 happened.
Obviously, the riots were verymuch in my face.
I had people that I once lovedand called friends participating
in the riots and questioning meand my ethics and my morals and
how I could support police andthings of that nature, and it
(03:13):
was a wild ride, to say theleast, from my perspective, just
because when I'm on my socialmedia and talking to these
people, all I could think of was, like that's someone's mother
or father, like how do you notregister that information?
And so at the time, I washaving a lot of trouble sleeping
at night because it was just onmy mind all the time, and you
(03:35):
know, they say that's when thebest ideas come to you.
And so one night I just hadthis kind of light bulb moment
where I needed to like figure itout, I needed to do something,
and so my initial thought waslike an online community,
because I personally kind ofhave benefited from, you know,
the Facebook groups of the world.
There was like a world in whichthat could work for cops, cause
(04:07):
obviously I understand.
You know there's nuances andwhat these conversations kind of
kept coming back to was myintroduction and how I talked
about my dad and my relationshipwith my dad.
And I would be having thesethese conversations and the
police officer or retired cop orwhoever it was would be like,
wow, my kid doesn't would nottalk about me the way you're
(04:27):
talking about your dad, or Idon't have that kind of
relationship with my kids.
And I'm having these calls andthe and the person on the other
side was having these likerevelations right in front of me
and I was.
I was like I never registeredthat this was a thing and that
this was happening and this ishappening right in front of me.
And so, after many of thoseconversations and many years of
(04:50):
just kind of thinking about it,I decided that this is kind of
where we need to kind of starttalking about things, because
we're talking more and moreabout mental health, which is
incredible and I love that but Ithink this is a world, an area,
where the information islacking and the conversation is
lacking, like how is your joband the outlets that you're
(05:13):
developing affecting yourchildren?
Jerry (05:18):
Yeah, I I've been teaching or have taught like
mental health classes, you know,to first responders, peer
support classes and and thingslike that, and very rarely is
there something that I comeacross it's driven for kids
right Of a first responder, likeprograms or like information.
(05:40):
There's just not a lot outthere and I think we don't
understand how the job impactsthem and we know it impacts our
spouses or significant others,but we don't really understand
the impact on the kids.
Katherine (05:56):
Yeah, exactly, and that's why these people were
having that revelation, like ittook talking to the adult child
of a police officer for them tokind of recognize it.
And, and the thing is, it makessense if you think about it,
because your spouse can likesmack you across the face and be
like, stop taking on so muchovertime, like what's wrong with
you.
And you know, they cancommunicate, even if it's not
(06:18):
necessarily effectivecommunication.
They can voice their experience.
But the child doesn'tnecessarily have the vocabulary,
they don't necessarily have theawareness that something is
wrong or that whatever is wrongmight be stemming from mom or
dad's job or mom or dad'sschedule or whatever.
That is so just kind ofbringing that awareness and that
(06:40):
as the adult you might have toopen up some of those
conversations with your children.
Jerry (06:46):
Yeah, I think that's really important to sit down
with them and try to maybeanswer some of their questions
that they have in anon-confrontational way, right
In the right setting.
Katherine (06:59):
Yeah, exactly.
Jerry (07:02):
What other like?
What was the common theme, likethe underlying theme, did they
just not?
Think about my parents well,just the underlying thing that
you come across with theofficers that you're talking to.
Katherine (07:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah, it was something that they had just
never thought about and and forsome of them they had adult
kids and they were like, oh wow,now things are making sense.
I don't have a relationshipwith my kid.
Maybe this is why, or we wentthrough this really rough patch
and we figured it out, but thisis where it stemmed from, and so
(07:36):
there was just a lot ofretrospective or introspective,
like revelations happening.
Some of them, it was like someof them had younger kids and
they were like I want my kid togrow up and have your story and
(07:56):
have your experience and be ableto say and feel the things that
you're saying and feeling.
So it really did like kind ofrun the gambit.
And then there were also somepeople who were like, oh yeah,
now I have an open dialogue withmy adult child and we talk
about these things that he orshe struggled with and, wow, as
(08:17):
their parent, I wish I couldhave done something back then.
And so, again, I think, justbringing the awareness and
starting those conversationsyounger, or even if they're not
conversations because I feellike that can sort of feel a
little like sticky or nervewracking or even like
unnecessary but just being therebeing present, making the most
(08:42):
of whatever time you do havewith the child or the children
and just like building it intoyour everyday life, because my
parents didn't necessarily havelike sit down, down and out
conversations with us, but westill had, you know, a really
great upbringing and family unitand again here I am sort of
(09:06):
trying to share that.
Jerry (09:08):
Yeah, what.
What did your family unit looklike?
Katherine (09:12):
Yeah, so my parents and then I have an older sister
and a younger brother and we areall very different, but growing
up it was just one thing that Isort of talk about and I give
credit to my parents for is thatthey normalized everything
about our life, so like whateverhappened in Sally Smith's house
(09:34):
didn't really matter, becausethat's just not how our family
operated and it wasn't like abig topic of discussion, it was
just like this is how we dothings, that's how she does
things, and so they reallynormalized some of the nuances
in the police realm and I thinkthat that helped a lot Because,
(09:55):
again, we felt like home wasvery, very safe.
It was where we could be safe,it was where a lot of our
friends can be safe, and thatjust kind of perpetuated itself.
Obviously, we had our teenyears and our struggling years,
but in general home was alwayssafe.
And then, even to this day,we're all very close and we all
(10:19):
get together for dinners orgatherings or what have you at
my parents' house, and it's justlike a little mini reunion
every month.
Jerry (10:28):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
Katherine (10:30):
Yeah, it's really nice.
Jerry (10:33):
I'm just trying to think, you know, I have three, three
daughters and uh, all differentas well, you know, and all
different perspectives, um, onmy career and what they saw and
and things like that.
You know, kind of going back towhat you said, you know they're
like the overtime, shifts andstuff like that.
They would always be like dad,you work so hard, you know, and
(10:54):
they and they still say thattoday, today, like you're such a
hard worker and everything, andI'm like kind of feels like
makes me like I wasn't present,which I probably wasn't.
Katherine (11:06):
Have you ever asked them.
Jerry (11:08):
I'm just curious, um, not straight up like that, actually
not, because I kind of get thatvibe from some of the stories
and stuff that they they say andthings that they say, but I
have never straight up askedthem yeah because I do.
You think it's hard for as afirst responder, like parent, do
you?
Katherine (11:30):
I think it can be for sure.
I think there's.
You know, there's a lot ofthings that can lead to that,
whether it's the trauma thatthey see on the job, whether
it's the peer pressure which Ithink is a big thing that can
kind of happen on the on, likebehind the doors, on the back
end, like come out drinkingafter your shift, hang out with
(11:51):
the guys or whatever it is.
After your shift, hang out withthe guys or whatever it is, and
then you know what you'reseeing.
If you don't either know how tocompartmentalize or have some
sort of routine that you can do,it's like you just go home and
you're smacked in the face with,like a bunch of kids who just
want to like hang out and playand scream in your space.
(12:12):
Um, so I definitely think it's.
It's not easy by any stretch ofthe imagination, but I do think
it's worth it because it's it'syour future and it's your kids'
futures and it really doesdetermine the trajectory of your
relationship with them andtheir relationships going
(12:34):
forward them?
Jerry (12:34):
Yeah, definitely.
Katherine (12:35):
And their relationships going forward.
Jerry (12:37):
Oh, yeah, true, Very true .
I know transitions were veryhard for me.
Transition to work or to comehome were difficult.
So I had to like figure out howto navigate those because, yeah
, those transitions I mean forme before shift, I would get a
little more amped up, a littlemore uptight, a little, you know
(12:58):
, more focused on work, lessfocused on home.
And then coming home, thattransition was difficult for me.
If I came home and the housewas up and everybody was just
going crazy to me, you know, andI was like I can't do this, I
like I need some like calmnessbefore I interject myself into
(13:20):
the family.
So, trying to master those,those transitions were were
difficult but they were worth it.
As I got better at it, I reallywish I could have implemented a
lot more of that earlier on inmy career.
Katherine (13:36):
And the thing is, you don't know what you don't know,
so that's not something thatyou're taught at the academy.
And if you're joining theacademy at 21, 22 years old.
That's not something you'regoing to think about.
You probably don't have kids.
You probably don't have aspouse or a partner You're 22.
The world is your oyster,you're 23.
You don't think about the ideathat there's going to be
(13:58):
compounding trauma that's goingto impact you and then there's
going to be just the sheeroverstimulation, because if you
walk in the door and kids arejumping up at you and all these
things, so it's not somethingyou think about, it's not
something that the academybrings up.
It might be something that youhave someone in leadership bring
up down the road, but you'renot prepared for it and, again,
(14:20):
you don't know what you don'tknow.
And so that's why I think theseconversations and what you're
doing and what more people inthis space are doing is so
important, because thattransition period, especially if
you have kids, important,because that transition period,
especially if you have kids, isimperative and until it's
(14:41):
brought to your attention andyou accept that it's a thing and
that it's something that youneed to establish and whatever
it looks like.
For my dad it was kind of builtin because he had a very
long-ish drive home and I thinkthat that was kind of built in
for him.
But whatever it looks like,whether it's your long drive
listening to a podcast,listening to your favorite song,
going for a drive around theblock a few times before you
actually walk into the house Ifyou have a partner, maybe the
(15:03):
partner takes the kids out ofthe house for a few minutes,
maybe you go to the gym beforeyou go home.
Whatever it's going to looklike, it's really important to
establish something, even ifit's only like you can fit a few
minutes in.
You need to do something.
We're human beings and youcan't be expected to go from
what you're seeing on the joband what you're experiencing on
(15:25):
the job to like mommy, daddymode, like that.
Jerry (15:30):
Yeah, no, very true.
There's lots of stories thatkind of caught my attention.
You know the officers or firstresponders go through this
horrible incident and then youknow, come home and they have to
make this transition after,like you know, this horrible
incident could then you know anofficer involved shooting and
then come home to be this loving, loving parent is really
(15:54):
difficult, or I don't know.
Sometimes like, depending onthe situation, may not even be
possible to like come home andhave a good interaction.
Katherine (16:03):
I feel like Exactly, and that's going back to like
how this kind of started duringthe riots.
I was like how is this personthat I'm looking at on my phone
who people are throwing thingsat him, people are throwing fake
blood at him, like how is hesupposed to go home and feed his
(16:23):
children or wake them up forschool tomorrow?
Like he's literally supposed tomake that transition and that's
I don't think that's humanlypossible.
And so you know that's againhow it started was like this
kind of mindset.
You know that's again how itstarted was like this kind of
mindset, mental health, takingcare of yourself concept.
And then, you know it, it doestrickle down to your kids
because there's no way that thatcan happen to you and it can't.
(16:46):
It doesn't impact your kidbecause you're going to have to
take that home with you in someway.
Jerry (16:53):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And then the last place youwant to take things out is at
home, because, uh, right, but ifyou're not happy at home, I
feel like it's can bechallenging, very challenging,
to be happy at work and viceversa.
Right, it's once again, it'sthose, those things that just
stay with you to occupy yourmind instead of being present.
(17:16):
I think is one way to put it.
Katherine (17:18):
Yeah, and the more synchronistic and like at peace
and settled and just normalizedthings are at home, the less you
have to think about outside ofyour job.
You can go and just be presentat work because you don't have
to worry about.
You know what your kids arestruggling with or what your
wife said this morning, or youknow whatever nonsense is
(17:40):
happening at home.
You don't have to worry aboutit because home is good.
You're taking care of it, evenif it's not perfect.
You're doing your due diligenceas a family to do the best you
can and make the best ofeverything you have, and then
you can show up 100% at work.
Jerry (17:59):
Yeah, and 100% at home, right.
Katherine (18:02):
Right, exactly.
Jerry (18:03):
As much as possible depending.
I know because people work forthese smaller departments, and
then they're like there's no daythat I don't interact with work
, you know, type of thing, whichis really unfortunate, because
I think it doesn't help anofficer or whoever downregulate
themselves, right, they're stillon that edge because my phone's
(18:26):
going off or I'm getting emailsor text messages and stuff like
that, and so I think it justalways heightens you up where at
home you want to be like themost downregulated possible,
right, it's supposed to be yoursafest place.
Katherine (18:41):
Yeah, exactly Exactly , and it can be hard, especially
for, like you said, some of thesmaller departments.
They're less staffed, they'reunderstaffed, they've got a lot
of mandatory overtime and thingslike that, and so that's where
the concept of doing the bestyou can kind of comes into play.
And sometimes I talk about it,but my family was Philadelphia
(19:03):
police, so I don't have a ton ofpersonal experience with some
of those smaller departments,but I do think that in some
instances some instances, notall of them, it is honestly it
does come down to a matter ofboundaries and putting up your
own boundaries and putting yourfoot down when you need to, like
(19:23):
.
You know, hey chief, hey Sarge,hey, whoever, my kid's sick or
you know this is going on athome and this is really what
matters right now because it'smy child.
You know this is going on athome and this is really what
matters right now because it'smy child, you know.
Jerry (19:39):
And hopefully you would get some understanding back.
And I'm like I'm torn becauseI'm like I think of some people
like yeah, I don't really careabout your boundaries.
You know you're still anemployee here and I need you,
and you know yeah.
And.
Katherine (20:00):
I think that that's also just like part of this
bigger conversation that we'restarting to have more of.
And again, the mental healthpiece and and getting leadership
in on things, because that's,you know, it's really hard,
especially for those smallerdepartments, it's really hard to
execute on some of these mentalhealth topics that we talk
(20:21):
about if leadership is kind ofon their own world, in their own
world, on their own planet,whatever it is, you know, we
really need to continue to justtalk about it and and get
leadership on board.
And that's one thing that Ithink was also unique about my
(20:41):
dad, because he was a Lieutenant, so he was a leader and he had
this perspective.
He had this family firstperspective and he would
actually like hold presentationsfor the younger cops to explain
to them like this is a job,this is what you need to be
really great at when you're atwork, and then this is also
(21:04):
really important If you have afamily, go home and be with your
family, and so, again, justleaders need to get on the ball
and kind of work with their guysand gals, because leading with
an iron fist is not going to getanyone anywhere and it's only
going to perpetuate all of theproblems that people like you
(21:27):
and I in this space talk aboutyeah, I always have these, like
you know, as a guest, like talksand stuff like that.
Jerry (21:37):
I always have these things like visions and memories
of things that have likehappened and gone on in the past
, and then I'm like, uh, that'sso many great learning lessons
from them.
They're talking aboutleadership.
Yeah, they do have to be onboard, but most of them that
I've seen they say they're onboard but aren't really going
through the actions of being onboard.
(21:58):
And part of that is, if you'rehaving your officers take mental
health classes, why aren't you?
Because you're not exempt fromit.
Katherine (22:09):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that that actually,now that you say that that's
almost another, just like Idon't want to say problem, but
it's like another concept.
It's almost like they're sayingI don't, I don't remember what
that old adage is, but like foryou, not for me, like it might
be a problem for you, but, butI'm, I'm chilling, I'm good, but
again, that's perpetuating theproblem.
(22:32):
If, if you're, you know, notacknowledging that you know you
might also need to focus onthings outside of work, again,
it's just a matter ofperpetuating the problem.
And I think everyone kind ofneeds to do a little bit more
introspection and take a look attheir life and their boundaries
(22:55):
and their values and, um, it's,it's definitely you know, again
, everything I'm doing,everything people in this mental
health for first respondersspace is doing, it's, it's all
adding up, but it's all part ofsomething a lot bigger.
(23:16):
Like this is.
This is a bit of a um, I don'twant to say a monster, but it's
like a big it's a big monster,you know it's going to take a
lot.
It's things have been the waythey've been for a really long
time.
Um, but I I think that you knowwe can only go on like that for
(23:37):
so long, and things need tostart to change, especially as
the world changes.
Jerry (23:43):
Yeah, I think.
I mean, it's just straight up.
Your family needs to beincorporated to some of these
trainings that happen.
You know, like spouses andstuff like that.
You get in front of some ofthese these trainings to
understand what the officers aregoing through and how they can
help them and how they can makethe family unit better and how
(24:05):
you know to interact with thekids could be better if we did
these different things.
Katherine (24:10):
Yeah.
Jerry (24:12):
What?
What do you suggest?
I know you talk about a lot ofopen communication and stuff
like that, but what do yousuggest?
I know you talk about a lot ofopen communication and stuff
like that, but what do yousuggest for somebody that may be
listening and be like, okay,this is kind of hidden, true to
me.
What action steps should I takenext?
Katherine (24:27):
I think starting to be intentional with your time
can go a really long way.
I actually just talked aboutthis on my page the other day,
but when my there was a seasonwhere my dad was like going
through some sort of transitionand he was put on nights again
when we were like when I waslike 10 to 12 ish and he was put
(24:48):
on nights again, and that wasvery foreign to us, we were kind
of confused by it and what hedid was when he would come home
from his night shift, he wouldwake us up for school so that he
could see us, he could be therewhen we woke up, he could spend
a little bit of time with usand then he would go to bed and
then my mom would take over.
(25:08):
And I think that's justsomething so small that he
probably didn't really thinkabout outside of.
I want to see my kids.
And we definitely never thoughtabout I only just thought about
it, like the other day, um,cause he was just being dad, he
was doing his job of waking usup, um, but those little things
(25:29):
really do make an impact.
I mean, it's something that Iremember to this day, um, and I
again, I think, just like makingthe most of your time.
So again, he squeezed that inright before he went to bed,
after coming home from his shift.
Maybe it's like going for adrive with one of your kids, or
taking them out for ice creambefore a shift or after a shift,
(25:52):
or on your day off, or makingyour days off a little extra
special.
And I think one thing I want tomention especially present day.
This was not an issue when Iwas growing up, but when you are
home, putting your phone downand yes, maybe you have to like
take a work call here and there,but like not playing the games
(26:15):
or being on the social media or,you know, not like farting
around on your phone work is onething, but just being
distracted by your phone is awhole nother thing in this
social media world.
That that I'm sure we couldtalk about for a long time, um,
but.
but I think that just being morepresent if you don't want to
have the conversations or maybeyou're not ready to have the
conversations that just beingmore present if you don't want
(26:36):
to have the conversations ormaybe you're not ready to have
the conversations, just beingmore present and making it very,
very clear to your childrenthat you are present and that
you do love them, will go areally long way yeah, I think
being present is is huge becauseyou're saying that you could.
Jerry (26:53):
Yeah, right, I don't really want to deal with these
problems at home.
I'm just going to numb myselfby scrolling, you know, through
social media and they're like,oh whoa, where did time go?
And I could have actually donesomething meaningful or
worthwhile with one of my kidsor my spouse, or something like
that.
I think it also comes down tobeing planned, right, not just
(27:14):
going to oh, I'm going to try todo this, I'm going, I'm
thinking about doing this, like,if you don't plan it, it's
probably not going to happen.
Katherine (27:24):
Exactly, yeah, and even if it's not like very
specific plans, what I saysometimes it's just like the
intentionality of whatever it isOkay.
The intentionality of whateverit is Okay.
This is my day off, this iswhat I'm going to do on my day
off, and maybe that's spend fromthree to four with Sally, and
(27:45):
from four to five I'm going tohelp my wife or husband make
dinner.
Like it doesn't have to besuper specific, where it's like
all right, we've got tickets tothe zoo at 1 pm and if you get
called into work we're screwed.
Like it doesn't need to be thatspecific, but making sure that
you are laying the groundworkand laying the foundation for
(28:06):
what your intent is to do withthe free time that you have with
your loved ones.
Jerry (28:14):
Yes, especially in right.
I feel like this is world isgetting busier and busier, more
things come and rob you of yourof your time.
So, yeah, like that, just likeit doesn't have to be locked
down.
I mean, sure, some things youknow vacations and things like
that, you know lockdown, but youknow, getting the opportunity
(28:37):
to spend time with your kids orhelp your spouse or whatever,
like that can be almost donelike anytime, long as the
intention is there to to helpthem or do something for them or
recognize them or be presentwith them, like I think think we
underestimate how smart kidsare.
Katherine (28:56):
Yes, and how much they like absorb yes.
Jerry (29:00):
Yeah, you don't think they're listening or watching,
but they are definitelylistening and watching.
Just watch them.
Mimic you some way.
Katherine (29:07):
Yeah, that's such a good point People always talk
about like how their kids startto do like what they do.
My best friend's son will likepretend he's drinking coffee
because she drinks coffee.
So yeah, if you just thinkabout they're like little
sponges.
So even if it doesn't registerto you, or if something doesn't
register to the way you wouldregister it as an adult, doesn't
(29:31):
mean that their little brainisn't registering it in some
other way, doesn't?
Jerry (29:35):
mean that their little brain isn't registering it in
some other way?
Yeah, yeah, definitely,catherine.
So you have this.
You're a podcaster as well.
You have, you have a page.
Let's talk a little bit aboutyourself.
Katherine (30:00):
Yeah, I have a podcast it's called Beyond the
Uniform, with the LT's daughter,and I interview active and
retired police officers as wellas adult children of police
officers.
It's a little bit harder tofind them and get them on the
show, but I have been, you know,trying to get more of them to
get different perspectives.
You know I have my perspectivebut I like to hear others and
share other stories.
So that's kind of who Iinterview.
I love the opportunity to givethese people a platform to share
(30:23):
their stories and theirexperiences.
I think it's really cool andreally powerful.
Instagram is the LTS daughter,where I kind of share some of my
experiences and the lessons andthe things I've learned along
the way and along this journey.
Um, and I I also through mycompany beyond the uniform, I
(30:45):
host events mostly in person inthe Philadelphia area.
I don't have any lined up rightnow.
I'm hoping to have a pretty bigone in November.
Um, but yeah, I host events forlaw enforcement and they're
typically and their spouses,because if the officer is going
to, you know better themselvesand better their knowledge, but
(31:07):
their spouse is not on board,it's it's just not going to work
.
Um, so for the officer andtheir spouse and, um, and yeah,
I'm, I'm working on somethingelse behind the scenes, but it's
it's not done quite yet, so Ican't give too much information
about that.
But stay tuned.
Jerry (31:25):
That sounds exciting.
Katherine (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, I'm very excited.
Jerry (31:29):
You know the the part about, uh, interviewing your,
your adult child like adultchildren of police officers and
stuff like that.
I had my daughter on my podcastyears back but sadly the audio
didn't record Only this littletiny little few-minute section
recorded and stuff.
So it's super sad about that.
(31:49):
But getting her on the otherside and doing the podcast, she
told me things that she hadnever told me before.
Getting her on the other side,you know, and doing the podcast,
she told me things that she hadnever told me before.
Katherine (32:00):
Wow.
Jerry (32:02):
And they weren't super great things I wanted to hear,
to be honest.
Katherine (32:06):
Oh yeah, I was going to ask what was that like for
you?
Jerry (32:13):
It was hard.
I mean, I was just like, hey,just say what you have to say.
I know sometimes ourrelationship's a little strained
and her perception of maybewhat happened during her
childhood and my perception are,you know, two different things,
but it was a little rough.
I think it might have been alittle therapeutic for both of
us.
But, um, the interesting part,years ago she didn't want to
(32:37):
have anything to do with being afirst responder or anything
like that, and now she findsherself kind of following in my
footsteps a little bit.
So she's, she's working, uh,for an agency as a intermediate
or advanced emt, so on anambulance wow, that's quite a
180.
Katherine (32:56):
Good for her, that's awesome.
Jerry (32:58):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think it'd be fascinating.
So I would encourage people tolisten to Catherine's podcast
because maybe it'll pick up somethings that you can use to
better you know your family, andthe better your family unit is,
I think the less stress you'llhave, and the less stress you
have probably is going to leadless impact on your mental
(33:20):
health.
Katherine (33:21):
Yes, and it'll also serve you into retirement or
into whenever you leave the job,because the relationships that
you put the work into will stillbe there once the job is not.
Jerry (33:34):
Right, because the job doesn't last forever.
Katherine (33:37):
It does not Public service announcement Right.
Jerry (33:43):
Nor should you try to make it last forever.
Katherine (33:45):
Yeah, no, please don't.
Jerry (33:49):
Catherine, it was awesome to have you on.
Is there something that wedidn't cover that you think
maybe the audience needs to knowto have you on?
Is there something that wedidn't?
Katherine (33:55):
cover that you think maybe the audience needs to know
.
I will say there is an episodeof my podcast with the guest's
name is Dr Erin Craw.
She is incredible.
She's also the daughter of apolice officer, but she has a
very different story.
Her dad, she was a totaldaddy's girl, loved her dad with
(34:15):
everything ineller.
But it's just a really great um,just an eyeopening interview, I
(34:43):
think, because one thing thatI've noticed is people will say
and this isn't just firstresponders but people will say
I'm not drinking a bottle a day,I'm not falling asleep blackout
every night, I'm not doing X, yand Z.
Joe Schmo is doing X, y and Z,so I'm fine.
But that's not the only tell.
(35:07):
There are other things thatcould be going on or other
things that your little spongescould be picking up on, even if
it's not black and white in yourface.
So I would highly recommend ifanyone of retiring and she was
20.
And that's it's kind of aheartbreaking story and again,
(35:41):
she talks more about it in thepodcast.
But I think there are a lot, of, a lot of lessons that can be
taken from from her experience.
Jerry (35:51):
Yeah, that sounds like a would be a powerful episode to
listen to.
The thought I had when you sayyou know Joe Schmo is doing this
and you know you're doing thisand so's like someone can eat
terribly and they can lookskinny all the time and someone
(36:19):
eats, you know, healthy and theymay still be overweight.
Like what you're doing affectsyou differently than what
somebody else is doing.
You can't do the same,necessarily the same things, and
maybe you have to put your ownlittle tweak on them.
Katherine (36:33):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really great example.
Actually, it's so easy tojustify things.
Jerry (36:38):
Yeah.
So, yeah, definitely Well,catherine, it's been a pleasure
having you on.
I really appreciate it.
Katherine (36:45):
Thank you, this was an honor.
I really appreciate having meon.
Jerry (36:48):
Yeah, thank you.
We'll have to have you back onwhen your super secret thing is
done.
Katherine (36:52):
Yes, I would love that.
I will definitely be in touch.
I'm very, very excited so okay,me too, thank you.
Jerry (37:01):
Thanks.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
If you know someone that wouldbe great on the show, please get
a hold of our host, jerry DeanLund, through the Instagram
handles.
That would be great on the show.
Please get a hold of our host,jerry Dean Lund, through the
Instagram handles atJerryFireAndFuel or at
(37:22):
EnduringTheBadgePodcast, also byvisiting the show's website,
enduringthebadgepodcastcom, foradditional methods of contact
and up-to-date informationregarding the show.
Remember, the views andopinions expressed during the
show solely represent those ofour host and the current
(37:44):
episode's guest.
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