February 20, 2024 • 63 mins
When the sirens fade and the trucks are back in the bay, what lingers in the minds of those who fight fires? Robert Absteck, a retired battalion chief, writer, and advocate from the Chesterfield Virginia Fire and EMS department, brings his expertise to our latest episode, revealing the silent battles waged within the fire service. As a member of the Fire Service Psychology Association, Absteck draws back the curtain on the mental health challenges firefighters face, from the haunting uptick in suicides to the psychological onslaught of cancer diagnoses within their ranks.
The lifeline for any firefighter sidelined by injury often comes in the form of continued connection to their team and department. We unravel the critical importance of support systems that maintain a firefighter's sense of value and purpose during recovery. The discussion traverses the landscape of the Fire Service Psychology Association's efforts to foster collaboration between mental health professionals and firefighting personnel, and we scrutinize the role safety precautions play in both physical and mental wellness. From the often-ignored seatbelt to the vital comprehensive safety guidelines, we confront the barriers to a healthier fire service community.
We wrap up with a clarion call for a shift in firefighting tactics and safety mentality. Why do seasoned firefighters sometimes sidestep the protection offered by modern gear and tactics, and what can be done to usher in a new era that prioritizes their well-being as fiercely as they protect our lives? By comparing the fire service to other high-stakes professions, including astronauts and the military, we underscore the need for a culture that not only recruits but retains these heroes through an unwavering commitment to their safety and resilience. Join us for a raw and transformative conversation that seeks to safeguard the guardians of our peace.
As a First Responder, you are critical in keeping our communities safe. However, the stress and trauma of the job can take a toll on your mental health and family life.
If you're interested in personal coaching, contact Jerry Lund at 801-376-7124. Let's work together to get you where you want to be and ensure a happy and healthy career.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jerry (00:02):
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
Podcast.
I'm host Jerry Dean Lund and ifyou haven't already done so,
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(00:24):
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So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isRobert Absteck.
How you doing, robert?
Robert (00:45):
I'm doing well, jerry.
Thanks for having me.
Jerry (00:48):
Yeah, thank you for taking time to be on.
Robert, can you introduceyourself to the audience?
Robert (00:54):
Hi audience.
Jerry (00:56):
He's got quite a background, so this could be
good.
Robert (01:01):
I'm Robert Absteck.
As Jerry said, I'm a retiredfire department battalion chief,
served with the women and menof the Chesterfield Virginia
Fire and EMS department for 26years.
Been retired now 16 years,which is wow.
I just realized that a coupleof days ago.
And then in my second career Idid a couple of different things
(01:25):
and then really found my nicheas a freelance writer and
writing online content for fireand EMS trade journals, because
everybody has to have contentthese days and you know just
have been very fortunate to beable to.
I was kind of working from homebefore it was cool or required.
Jerry (01:50):
That's good, you got a head start.
Robert (01:53):
Yeah, yeah, so I've also .
You know, during my fireservice career I was an
instructor for not only my owndepartment but Virginia
Department of Fire Programs hada wonderful opportunity for 10
years to be a contractinstructor with the National
Fire Academy.
I think I was very fortunate Ionly lived 190 miles away from
(02:19):
Amnusburg so I was able to bid alot of classes without airfare
involved.
So I think somewhere around 40deliveries on campus, basically
the two-day state weekendprograms, which are fabulous,
(02:40):
fabulous.
I highly recommend anybodywho's number one if you've never
been to the fire academy before, go.
Number two especially if you'rea volunteer firefighter, you
know, get hooked up with yourstate weekend.
I mean that's just a fabulouslearning opportunity.
(03:01):
You know, I remember.
I remember like one of thefirst or second times I taught
on campus and it was MichiganState Weekend and three tour
buses rolled up into the parkinglot.
Like this is a big deal, yeah.
Jerry (03:21):
That's awesome.
What did you teach there?
Robert (03:25):
I started out, the very first course I ever taught was
the supervisor's role ininfection control.
You know, back in the late 90sWell, actually the early 90s,
you know when we first startedpaying attention to gloves and
masks and gowns to protect usfrom blood-borne pathogens.
(03:46):
Then the next series I got intowas the incident command system
for EMS, so helping to bringthat perspective to incident
command for those firedepartments to provide EMS.
And you know, we startedgetting folks from
(04:09):
non-fire-based EMS coming tothose classes as well.
And then I think the last thingI was involved with was the
response to terrorist activitiestype of stuff.
So yeah, it was a good 10-yearrun.
Ad (04:30):
Yeah.
Robert (04:32):
And the fire academy folks were absolutely fabulous.
I had the opportunity to meetand chat with Dr Dennis O'Neill
on many occasions, especially onSaturday mornings.
He'd come knocking on the doorto your classroom and you know
he'd have his khakis and hisbutton-down shirt on, you know.
(04:52):
But looking looking at DrO'Neill casual and saying, you
know, the wife sent me out forsome milk and bread and I
figured I'd stop in and see howthings are going.
You know, and it's just, it wasjust always a pleasure to see
the good doctor knocking at yourdoor.
Jerry (05:09):
That's very, very cool, very cool experience to be at
the National Fire Academy Lovedevery time I was able to make it
out there.
It was an incredible experience, and meeting people from all
over the country was the bonus.
You know, just getting thedifferent perspectives of
everybody in their differentdepartments and what they were
going through in life and theirdifferent struggles was was
(05:32):
pretty eye-opening.
So I, too, suggest you go tothe National Fire Academy.
Robert, you're part of the FireService Psychology Association,
is that correct?
Robert (05:42):
Yes, yes, fspa.
Jerry (05:45):
FSPA.
What do you do for FSPA?
Robert (05:49):
Well, we're an organization we started back in
2017 by a psychologist inSouthern California, dr Kristen
Weldon, and our you know we'remade up of fire service folks,
psychologists, other mentalhealth professionals like
clinical social workers andlicensed clinical counselors and
(06:13):
our goal is to help bridge thatgap between professional
psychology and the fire service.
Okay, because there's a.
There's a real lack of mentalhealth professionals who know
what we do, why we do it, theconditions under which we do it,
et cetera, and, at the sametime, on the other side of the
(06:36):
river is the fire service thatdoesn't really understand what
all this mental health stuff is.
Right, but we know.
But we know we got a.
We got a behavioral healthepidemic on our hands.
Jerry (06:50):
Yes.
Robert (06:50):
Right, and you know, and and certainly you can do us any
favors in that regard, you know, but we're we're losing more
firefighters to suicide than weare on duty injuries.
Jerry (07:04):
Sure.
Robert (07:04):
And that's you know, and and and all the members who are
undergoing cancer treatment andtherapy people.
You know that has certainlybeen on the big spot on the on
the the fire service agendacancer and firefighters.
But you know, the thing that Ithink doesn't get talked about
(07:27):
enough is what's the, what's thepsychological aspect of that
cancer care, right, I mean, youknow, as, as firefighters, the
worst thing for us is being offthe job.
Jerry (07:39):
Right.
Robert (07:41):
You know it's, you know you're, you're, it's, it's
almost like you've been takenaway from your family and put
over here for however long ittakes to come back.
And so you know, we, especiallyat FSPA, we, we feel like you
know, yes, there's a lot ofissues that are affecting
(08:04):
firefighter behavioral,behavioral and mental health.
Let's not forget the cancer,the folks who are going through
those, those long-term cancertreatments, et cetera.
But you know that's also abehavioral health component.
Yeah, not taking, not takinganything away from the
(08:24):
oncologist.
Jerry (08:25):
Right.
Actually treating the disease,but yeah, when you have an
element like that, there's right, there's, or pretty much any
element, right, there's a mentalaspect of it and there's the
physical aspect of it, you can'treally separate them.
They're combined into one.
Robert (08:44):
No well, I mean, you know it's always at least I
think it is one of those thingsthat's always on the mind of a
of a firefighter.
You know we're likeprofessional athletes.
You know we're only one entryaway from a career ending and we
don't and we don't know if andwhen that will come.
(09:04):
I mean, you know, obviously,with you know, over the past
couple, the decade or so, youknow we've become a lot more
aware of the physical aspects ofthe job and you know a lot of
firefighters are taking bettercare of themselves, et cetera.
But still, you know we're we'rewe're tactical athletes.
Yeah, you know, and and the jobis it's.
(09:27):
You know I wrote, you know Iwrote a book about one time, I
wrote an article, the seventruths about fire service
retirement, and one of them isyou finally get treatment for
all those knee and shoulderinjuries that you didn't get
taken care of on the job,because, number one, here again,
it would have taken you awayfrom the job, whether it was,
(09:49):
you know, eight or nine monthsto rehab an ACL injury or a, you
know three or four months,because you got to get a rotator
cuff fixed.
You know, I got mine fixed in2019.
You know so we, you know we.
There's a, there's a, there's alot there.
Jerry (10:10):
Yeah, I was hurt on the job and I was out 500 days and
uh, wow, yeah, that that led medown to a road, you know, of
wanting to take my own lifebecause of that.
And I think part of that waslike being gone from the
department, like kind of beingright, when you're on workers
comp there's very strict rulesabout how you can engage and,
(10:31):
with your department, how muchtime you can spend there.
So trying to play by all thoserules and then you just kind of,
after being gone that long, youkind of fade away as a as a
memory a little bit.
But then on my side that gaveme let's see, I've been in my
career 20 plus 20 plus yearswith my volunteering part to
your time to think abouteverything that had seen and
(10:54):
gone through in my life.
And so when you're sitting athome trying to rehab, those
thoughts just creep up and theyget wicked.
Robert (11:05):
Wow, wow.
And there there's a perfectexample of what we were talking
about just a couple of minutesago.
Yeah, you know, it's not justthe physical injury and it's not
just having, you know,behavioral health persons
whether it's a psychologist or aclinical social worker to work
with.
It's addressing those thingslike workers comp policies that
(11:31):
limit your ability to stayconnected with your, with your
organization.
You know, and and even from anorganizational perspective,
right to recognize that.
Hey, you know, if, if we gotsomebody who's going to be out
for let's just say, three months, four months, right, that's the
(11:52):
projected time that they'regonna come, fire departments
need to develop mechanisms tokeep you connected.
Jerry (12:00):
Yes.
Robert (12:00):
Right, whether it's gathering everybody who's out on
sick leave or injury leaveright now for lunch, once a
month or every couple of weeksor whatever and engaging with
the leadership of theorganization to let you know hey
, jerry, you're still our guy.
Jerry (12:23):
Yes.
Robert (12:26):
How's your rehab going?
Is there anything you needHearing that kind of thing from
the white shirts?
That's important stuff.
Jerry (12:37):
Yeah.
Robert (12:38):
And what does it cost?
Jerry (12:41):
Not much at all.
Not much at all.
Robert (12:43):
Wait less than it is to fire me and then to retrain me.
Jerry (12:48):
That got so disconnected from my fire department that
they end up wanting to fire mewhile I was out, and that was
crazy.
Yeah, crazy, that's what I meanright Through another downward
spiral of you know.
With all that happening, Iwanted to take my own life.
Robert (13:11):
Yeah, let's throw another brick on his load, right
, right.
Jerry (13:16):
Making less money because you're out on work.
You can't work.
All your other side hustles, soyou're trying to survive
filling off all your prizedpossessions to maintain.
Robert (13:27):
There you go.
Maintaining food there you gothere's another aspect of the
physical injury that we don'tgive enough emphasis to, and
that is you know I dare saythere's probably very few
firefighters out there who aremaking it on their firefighter
salary, right, you know whetherit's to, you know, pay for their
(13:52):
kid's education, or you know,getting that bigger house
because the family's gottenbigger, or whatever.
But you know, now, all of asudden bing, you know you blow
out a knee and you're out forfive or six months.
Boy, that's a big hitfinancially.
(14:14):
So you know, there again, right.
Jerry (14:17):
Yeah.
Robert (14:18):
There are things that fire departments could do, you
know, working with the localcredit union to give you, you
know, extremely low interestloan or whatever to carry it
through that particular period.
You know whatever, yeah, andthat's you know at least
recognize and address that.
That's another element that wehave to overcome if we're gonna
(14:41):
get Jerry back on the job trulyin the three or four months that
the medical people are talkingabout.
Jerry (14:49):
Yeah, right, and I think to you know to go with that and
what you're saying.
You know, if you're thatconnected and still staying part
of the department, I feel likethat's gonna allow you to heal
faster because you're notworried about your job, keeping
your job.
You're already stressed aboutyour injury.
So the more stress you have, Ifeel like the slower generally
(15:11):
you're gonna heal.
Robert (15:12):
Oh, oh.
Without a doubt, the medicalfolks will tell you that all the
time.
Okay, If you've got, if you'restressed out and you have a high
level of stress, that's lessenergy that your body is
devoting to that part of yourimmune system that's supposed to
be rebuilding.
Jerry (15:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Robert (15:34):
You know.
So it's again we know.
I think the biggest thing thatwe can take away from this is
helping fire departments andfirefighters realize that an
injury is not just an injury.
It's got a mental healthcomponent, it's got a financial
(15:56):
component, it's got a moralecomponent.
You know, and I wrote a piece acouple of years ago for
firerescueonecom about this, youknow, getting firefighters back
on the job, et cetera, and itwas Denver.
Denver Fire Department hadinitiated this program.
(16:20):
They had opened up a health andwellness center, right.
So they had their own,basically, rehab facility and
when firefighters got hurt, okay, that became their new
assignment.
Your new assignment is to showup at rehab Monday through
(16:42):
Friday, for you know whateverblock of time you should be
doing rehab, right.
So their approach was like thatof professional professional
teams or college teams, whereyou know your star quarterback
goes down with an Achilles tear,right, they're not sitting at
(17:04):
home for nine months, they'reshowing up at rehab every day.
That's their new job assignment.
And I think that would.
I think that if moredepartments could do that kind
of thing there again, there'sanother way to keep you
connected with the departmentright.
(17:27):
And also, you know it makes youfeel better because you're
going.
You know I'm not I don't meanto say this in any negative way
you know helps you feel likeyou're not a slug.
Jerry (17:41):
Yeah.
Robert (17:42):
You know the hey, I'm working, you know I'm putting in
the work every day, just likemy buddy's back at the fire
station, right, and also thathelps with the folks at the fire
station.
Yeah, you know, hey, we knowwhere to find Jerry, monday
through Friday, from eight to 12, right, so maybe they get off,
(18:05):
maybe they get it off duty andthey swing by and they spend 10
or 15 minutes with you.
Jerry (18:11):
Right, you know.
Robert (18:12):
But at least they know what Jerry's doing.
Jerry (18:17):
I couldn't agree with you more.
Robert (18:19):
Jerry's working his buns off to get back on the job.
And then when you do return tothe job, right, it's not the,
it's Jerry.
Up this yeah.
You know it's hey, welcome backbuddy, welcome back Boy.
(18:40):
You were really kicking ass inthat rehab, weren't you?
Jerry (18:44):
Yeah.
Robert (18:45):
There's just so many upsides to this.
Jerry (18:48):
I like it.
I mean cause it means make merethink some of the what I went
through during those 500 daysand what I didn't feel.
I mean and it's just, I'm notaccusing anybody right I didn't
feel valued.
I didn't feel valued to myself,I didn't feel of value to my
family, right Cause I'm not, youknow, being the most sure or
(19:11):
take the load that I need tofinancially, and I don't feel of
value to the department becauseI can't work.
So then I sit there by myselfand feel of no value and you
know, when you don't feel ofvalue, it tends to lead you to
some pretty suicidal, ideational, you know, thoughts.
Robert (19:34):
Loneliness is a real bitch.
Yeah, yeah, and you know, andthat's, that's one of the things
that you know.
We at the fire servicepsychology association talk with
firefighters and firedepartments, et cetera.
You know when they you know youtalk about.
Well, how do you, how do youknow somebody's struggling, or
(19:58):
whatever?
I said, when you see a personwho used to be part of the group
and now they're off bythemselves, that should be the,
that should be one of the firstred fly.
Not that you gotta say, oh,let's go get him and and take
him to, but that should be thefirst sign that says Jerry,
what's up man?
Jerry (20:16):
Yeah.
Robert (20:18):
What's up, man?
You know, that's where, that'swhere the buddy system really
needs to come into play and and,and that's one of the things
that we're working towards isdeveloping training and
guidelines, et cetera.
That works with stuff that'salready out there.
I mean, there's been stuff putout by the IAWF, by the IAFC, by
(20:40):
the National Volunteer FireCouncil, okay, and so in a lot
of cases we're not looking to toto rewrite the books or
whatever, but you know, a lot oftimes there's so much stuff
that's in these silos, right,and they can be five feet apart
and don't know what each silo isdoing.
(21:01):
And so that's why we're, youknow, I think that's the beauty
of our organization is becausewe have fire service folks,
because we have the mentalhealth folks, we're always
getting both perspectives, infact.
In fact, one of the things thisis a very rare thing right here
.
Okay, you got a real rare thinggoing on and that is me on your
(21:23):
podcast talking about the fireservice psychology associates,
because our general philosophyis it's always two of us, always
a fire service person, alwaysone of our psychology folks, so
that it's you're.
You're always getting that same, that same bilingual
(21:43):
perspective.
Jerry (21:45):
Yeah.
Robert (21:46):
And and that we have found that that is and I would
highly recommend that to anybodywho's working in their local
community Okay, the fire servicefolks, get out there and learn
who your mental health folks areRight, get them interested in
learning about who you are Right.
(22:06):
And so then, when you starttalking about how can we, how
can we get things done, how canwe start addressing some of
those issues about the injuredfirefighter or the firefighter
who's undergoing cancertreatment, or the firefighter
who, jerry, comes to us and says, hey, I think, I think Robert
(22:30):
is having a rough go, you know,maybe, maybe you know we should
try to give him a little push inthe right direction there.
Okay, but cause, you know oneand you know one of the biggest
things that we're the encounter,and that is, hey, fire service
(22:51):
is a very parochial profession,Right, very parochial.
We've got a long history of oh,we'll solve our own problem,
right, for the longest timethere was a, there was that
resistance to the, to the cancerfolks.
Jerry (23:10):
Yeah.
Robert (23:10):
Right, we didn't want to , we didn't want to address that
.
What are the true hazards thatwe're being exposed to on the?
You know?
Thankfully now we're havingthose fruitful conversations and
and the training programs andthe treatment programs and and
so forth.
But you know what?
We still got people coming downwith cancer, you're right.
(23:34):
And we still have, and we stillhave firefighters and fire
officers who aren't followingthe guidelines, who aren't doing
the right things.
Dr Burton Clark, retiredretired guy from the fire
academy and author, and so forth.
He's a member of ourorganization.
The guy's got to be like 105years old, right, still still
(24:00):
getting it done.
But you know what's one of themost frustrating things for the
good doctor is 25, almost 30years later, after he developed
the firefight, the nationalfirefighter sequel pledge right.
We still got 50% of firefighterswho aren't wearing their seat
(24:20):
belts.
You know it was back.
I think it was November.
Yeah, I think it was November.
I kept track and we had sixfirefighter fatalities where the
firefighters were ejected fromthe vehicle.
(24:41):
Okay, when you look at today'sfire apparatus, look at what the
manufacturers have done toprotect us.
With the whole roll bar cageconcept for the cab, you got
airbags from every direction.
I mean, I've written on thistopic many, many times and they
(25:07):
got systems now that are tellingthe airbags you should be
deploying even before the impactoccurs because the vehicle's
orientation is off center, right.
Yeah, so you don't even have towait.
You don't even with thosesystems.
You don't even have to wait forthe apparatus to land on its
(25:29):
side.
It's already deploying theairbags because the onboard
computer is going.
You can't recover from this.
This is not good.
You know.
So we got all this stuff thatthe manufacturers are doing to
protect us and we can't put iton our seatbelt.
Now there's a psychologicalaspect of firefighting that
(25:53):
really needs to be addressed,and it's not just that, it's a
host of other things that youknow.
We give you the knowledge, giveyou the education, we give you
the training.
So why does an officer not goout and do a 360 assessment and
(26:14):
realize, so that they don't knowwhat's going on on the Charlie
side of the building andsomebody gets hurt or, worse,
somebody dies?
Jerry (26:23):
Yeah, you know most.
Excuse me, most of the wayyou're talking about, robert, I
feel is like the fire service ingeneral is we have gotten to a
great place of knowing what todo.
Knowing what to do, knowing youknow more about mental health,
knowing more like what you'retalking about, apparatus more,
(26:44):
but we're not doing.
We're not doing.
The initiative of doing thesethings is not.
It's just it's not landing inthe right places and it's not
been set into people's brains todo it and that's, and that's.
Robert (26:59):
That's the big point that in fact Dr Clark just had
an article published infirerescueonecom about the need
to get psychology involved inthe NIOSH firefighter fatality
investigations.
Okay, it's, you know, it's nolonger good enough to to
(27:23):
investigate a line of duty,death and say, oh, you know, and
you know they don't, they don'tseek to to point blame, right.
In fact, I think they go togreat lengths not to Right, I
agree.
They, you know they always windup with that list of
recommendations.
You know fire departmentsshould have standard operating
guidelines for these types offires.
(27:44):
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Jerry (27:46):
Yeah.
Robert (27:46):
It's the same stuff every time.
Okay, and Dr Clark's point,which is which is our, which is
our stance at FSPA, is we needto get psychology involved in
those investigations to find outwhy it happened.
Jerry (28:04):
Yeah.
Robert (28:05):
Okay, we, we got a great understanding of what happened.
Okay, but we don't understandwhy.
Because we don't understandwhat was going on leading up to
that.
Jerry (28:18):
The chain of the events that happened before Right.
Robert (28:20):
Yeah, what?
What was the?
You know what do they call itin risk management?
You know what is the failuretree?
Look like, Because unless we,unless we get a clear picture of
of what that, what that failuresequence looked like, we don't
(28:41):
know what's the best place tointervene.
Jerry (28:45):
Yeah.
Robert (28:45):
You know Dr Weldon, who founded FSPA.
She's our president and CEO.
She cut her teeth in theCalifornia correction system,
Okay.
And shortly before, shortlybefore she got hired, they had a
(29:06):
spat of inmate deaths.
Now there's like eight or ninein a in a two or three month
period, right.
And so about the time she cameon the job, they started, they
started what they call forensicautopsy and they looked at every
one of those deaths and saidand found out what was the chain
(29:29):
of events that led this personto take their own life in the
correctional facility?
Okay, and and that theoutgrowth of that became a
process of evaluation, right.
That the psychologist in the inthe correctional facility would
(29:51):
engage in when the inmate firstarrived, right.
Jerry (29:55):
Yeah.
Robert (29:56):
And they would be able and it gave them an objective
criteria to say this person'slow, medium, high risk of taking
their own life in this facility.
Because one of the big thingsthey found out when they you
know, here again, biggest partsometimes is just connecting all
the dots, but one of thebiggest things they found was
(30:18):
with those eight or nine inmatefatalities was they were
happening within 72 hours ofbeing in the facility and so you
know what they found was thatyou know when they would, when
they would use this process andthey identify the person is a
(30:40):
low risk.
But the fact that they've, thefact that they've earned some
points on the process to beginwith going to keep a little bit
of a closer eye on this personright, whereas the person who's
the high risk we need to do somepsychological intervention
(31:00):
before we put this person into aprison population.
Jerry (31:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Robert (31:04):
Okay.
So you know it's that type ofthing that you know we
envisioned could really benefitthe firefighter line of duty
death investigation process thatNIOSH engages in.
Right, we're dealing with humanbeings, right?
I mean, when the airlineindustry, you know, 30 years ago
(31:29):
or whatever, was experiencingyou know far too many human
behavior crashes, right, andthey developed the cockpit room
management, right, it shouldcome as no surprise that there
were psychologists involved inthat, because they they said,
(31:51):
look, we got to understandwhat's what led up to this event
, right, yeah, you know, youdon't just have a plane crashing
and a 25 or 20 year captain atthe helm, you just don't make a
mistake like that out of theblue.
Yeah, and the more they came tounderstand that that's what
(32:15):
they built into their simulatorprocess and and and you know so
it was not only, it wasn't onlythe the technical training of
how to better hand, they all hadthe training.
My god, they've been, they'vebeen flying the airplanes for
years.
Jerry (32:35):
Yeah.
Robert (32:36):
What went, what went wrong, had nothing to do with
the airplane.
It had to do with what wasgoing on here, and you know when
you, when you look at the bigfield, it seems these days in,
in, in, especially professionalsports, but even major college
(32:57):
sports, is the sportspsychologist.
Jerry (33:00):
Yeah.
Robert (33:00):
Okay, now what do you think this person is bringing to
the table?
Right, they're not helping mehit better.
They're not helping me passbetter Right.
They're helping to get rid ofthe stuff that's going on in
here that is hindering me frombeing the best player I could be
(33:21):
.
Jerry (33:21):
Right.
Robert (33:22):
Right, and that's that's another aspect of psychology
can offer to the fire services.
When we're doing this incidentcommand training, when we're
putting people throughsimulations of events to you
know where we need the psychcoach right To help this person.
(33:44):
Help this person, help me makebetter decisions than that
simulator, because if I'm makingbetter decisions than that
simulator, I'm going to makebetter decisions on the fire
ground or the emergency scene.
Jerry (33:58):
Yeah, no, you're right, you're right.
I guess the biggest challengeto a lot of that is the lack of
psychologists out there to helpdo these important things.
Robert (34:13):
Exactly, Exactly.
But, like I said, you've gotthe psychology on this side of
the river and the fire serviceon this side of the river, right
.
I think sometimes there's ahesitancy on the part of the
fire service to okay, how do weget them over here?
It's more like well, how arethey going to get over here?
Jerry (34:37):
Yeah.
Robert (34:39):
And that's why we found that the more that we can engage
, the more that we can realizethat, hey, it'll be like a
transcontinental railroad You'vegot to come from two directions
.
Jerry (34:54):
Yeah.
Robert (34:55):
Right.
Jerry (34:56):
Yeah.
Robert (34:58):
And you know the great book.
I forget who the author was.
I always get confused DavidMcCullough or Stephen Ambrose
but the greatest thing on Earthis the story of the
transcontinental railroad beingbuilt.
Okay, which was the last majorengineering project in the world
(35:21):
that was done by hand.
They tried to have shovels acouple of times on the coming
from the California side.
It didn't work so good, butanyway, the point of this is
there was a very good reason whyone railroad company wasn't
given the whole contract to goeither from east to west or west
(35:44):
to east, and that was becauseof the Rocky Mountains.
Okay, the railroad company overhere in the east.
They were real good at buildingrailroads on flat ground.
Yeah, guys over here inCalifornia.
They were very good at buildingrailroads where you had to go
(36:04):
over hills, valleys, you know,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Plus, they wanted to get thisthing done in a hurry.
Jerry (36:11):
Right.
Robert (36:12):
Okay, but you know, those necessities, those driving
forces are what helped usachieve that particular
accomplishment I think, asimilar, you know.
I think that's a great analogy,for what psychology and the
fire service needs to do is wehave to recognize that neither
(36:33):
one of us is going to get thisbridge built all by ourselves.
Jerry (36:37):
Amen Okay.
Robert (36:38):
The fire service has got to.
The fire service has to realizelook, it's our job to get at
least halfway across the river.
Psychology it's our job to atleast get halfway across the
river, because if we each gethalfway across with that bridge,
(36:58):
guess what?
We're driving that golden spike.
Jerry (37:02):
Yeah.
Robert (37:04):
Well, probably wouldn't drive a golden spike but yeah,
you know what?
I mean yeah, you know what Imean.
The perverted wheel of goldenspike, and that's yeah, yeah, I
mean that's why it's soimportant.
You know, we in my mind wereally didn't start making
really great strides in ourapproach to cancer with
(37:27):
firefighters until theoncologists started getting
involved, until we startedgetting research done, like the
folks are doing down at theUniversity of Miami I think it's
the Sylvester Cancer Center.
You know it's getting thosekinds of resources involved so
(37:51):
that we're not only developingtreatment programs but we're
also developing the researchthat helps us understand why are
firefighters getting cancer?
Where are the greatest threatsof firefighter getting cancer?
That's data-based decisionmaking, right, I think.
(38:13):
Sometimes in the fire service,in too many situations it's
still, I think, I feel I believemethod of decision making, and
you know we can do better thanthat.
I agree.
And we have to do better thanthat, especially if we're going
(38:36):
to attract young people to thisprofession.
Okay, yeah, you know, they'vegot to know that.
You know how many people do youthink NASA would have recruited
to be astronauts if one out ofthree blew up?
Jerry (38:56):
Yeah, not many.
Robert (38:58):
Not many, not many.
I mean that was.
I'm sure that was a huge partof their successful recruitment
of astronauts.
After the Mercury 7, right yeah, Was the safety record.
You know, yeah, there was riskinvolved.
(39:19):
But, boy, look at what we do tomake it as safe as possible and
, consequently, look whathappened when they strayed from
that safety culture.
We had the challenger.
Jerry (39:34):
Yeah.
Robert (39:35):
Okay, and you know that.
I'm sure that that took a hugechunk out of NASA's integrity,
nasa's credibility.
I don't know that itnecessarily hurt their astronaut
recruiting efforts, okay, but Ibet there was more than one of
(39:56):
them.
It's like this ain't as easy asI thought it was going to be.
Yeah, yeah, and the fireservices has.
You know, there are so manythings in our business that are
interrelated and yet we don'trealize it right.
Jerry (40:15):
Or do we, do we realize it and then just or just don't
want to maybe turn look at orturn a blind eye to it.
Robert (40:22):
Well, I think, I think, I think perhaps I just uncovered
a new stone and that is look,we're having trouble recruiting
people.
Maybe it's because we haven'tgotten as good as we need to be
with keeping firefighters fromgetting cancer, keeping
firefighters from taking theirown lives by suicide, keeping
(40:44):
firefighters from from whatevernegative things can happen
because of their work on the jobright, I mean, those are the,
those are the kinds of thingsthat that I think the recruiting
package of the future futurebeing tomorrow, all right that
(41:07):
fire departments would do wellto accentuate what it is we are
doing to make this a safe, saferprofession.
Okay, so that you can have asense of security.
I can, I can work for thisplace for 10 or 20 years and not
think that I've given up 10 or20 years of my life.
Jerry (41:30):
Yeah, so, robert, are you going to write an article about
this?
Robert (41:38):
Man.
Ad (41:40):
I got.
Robert (41:40):
I got so many ideas out of this conversation.
It ain't funny and I'll tellyou what.
You got a book in you and Iwould, I would, I would jump
with the opportunity to be yourghost writer, because anybody
who could, anybody who can comeback from 500 days off the job,
(42:06):
you no-transcript.
You file that underinspirational stories.
Jerry (42:13):
Yeah, I'm serious.
Robert (42:16):
I appreciate that, you know and and and you know in the
in the vein of, particularly inthe vein of how, how fire
departments could do a better.
You know how, how the mythicalfire department could do better
if they had an employee goingthrough a similar event.
(42:39):
Okay, what would you dodifferent?
Yeah or what would you do atall?
Yeah yeah, but I think thebiggest thing that that
certainly has come out of thisconversation for me is Is the
fact that man the dots doconnect, and and until until
(43:03):
we're absolutely certain that weIf connected all the dots, we
got to keep working at it.
You know we got a tie cancer,psychological health, financial
security, right, you know, allof those things have got family
dynamics right family dynamics.
(43:25):
Family dynamics, absolutely, youknow I and.
But you know the thing is thereare already wonderful models
out there, the things that ourmilitary services Do for their
soldiers sailors, airmen, okay,and there are families to to
(43:46):
keep to, you know.
Jerry (43:53):
Yeah, keep them connected right.
Robert (43:55):
I'm sure there will be some naysayers they does bull.
But you know, I, one of my, oneof my jobs after I retired was
I worked in in Crystal City,virginia, which is Technically
Arlington right, and I workedfor the Army's fire chief.
I was the contractor.
(44:16):
They were transferringInstallation management command
from Virginia to San Antonio,part of part of the the the, the
BRAC Move the shells around,Okay.
Okay, got to keep this Congressdistrict happy.
Yeah, okay, but working, workingfor the Army's fire chief, we
(44:40):
were responsible for for all theplanning and logistics for 82
Army installations worldwide.
Okay, and being an installationmanagement command, I mean on
the same floor of this of thishuge office building right right
next door, had law enforcement.
(45:01):
I had physical security, whichlaw enforcement handles
everything inside the fence.
Physical security handles thefence and everything outside of
it.
But also I, I came toappreciate how installation
management command operates,every one of those installations
like it's its own town and theand the and the base.
(45:25):
The base commander is the mayor.
Yeah okay, cuz cuz they, theygot to provide education, they
got to do the utility stuffstreets, roads, lights, okay.
But I also got to see a greatappreciation for how they work
(45:45):
to the families integrated,especially especially when you
look at the fact that you know,every two or three years you and
your family got to pick up Allyour shit and go someplace else.
Yeah right and boom, you andyour kids are now suddenly in a
new neighborhood.
Okay, a lot of it looksfamiliar because you know
(46:09):
there's only so much you can dowith a military base, right, but
still you got the same.
You got the same tools, thesame functions, etc.
And and a big part of that basecommander's obligation as the
mayor is to make sure that newfamilies are adequately
integrated into into thecommunity.
(46:31):
And so you know yeah, like yousay, you know the, the families
of our firefighters, right?
Jerry (46:41):
They're forgotten a lot.
Robert (46:43):
Yeah, but, and and you know, you know, you spoke of the
impact on you as an individualof being out that length of time
.
Wait what?
What kind of stress did thatput on your family?
Jerry (46:58):
Well into the, into the relationship.
Robert (47:01):
I tell you that well, you know, and and that I'm you
know, I'm just I'm sorry thatthat kind of thing happens.
Yeah but, but it's gonna keephappening Until again.
We there's another dot toconnect Right, or another silo
to break down Right, and that isto provide the necessary,
(47:26):
necessary support to the familyso that you know the spouse or
the significant other isn'tgoing.
How the hell are we gonna paythe bills next week?
You know, or you know, how do Iget Jerry out of this funk?
You know, or, if nothing else,to be able to recognize that
(47:48):
Jerry is in a phone.
Oh and what, what, what servicesare available to help both of
us Get out of this funk together?
Jerry (48:00):
Yeah, it's kind of like when you work, all those jobs
are your side, hustles andeverything, and then you're hurt
and then you land at home beingat home all the time.
Your family is not used to youbeing at home.
You're not used to being athome, and so here comes some
collision of, of, of thoughts,believes whatever, of.
Robert (48:23):
What's happening at home and there's a.
There's another aspect ofretirement yeah, yeah.
You know, all say like you say,all of a sudden you're not gone
Every other day, or or everythree days, or what are you know
, whatever the work schedule was.
Um, you know, I know who usedto laugh my, my wife would say,
(48:47):
and I would say something orsomething she go, chief Afsak is
the guy who went out that dooryesterday.
Okay, but he ain't the guy whocame in the door today.
Yeah, you're a robber.
Jerry (49:02):
Yeah.
Yeah yeah, but that's not easy.
Reality check, it's not easy.
Robert (49:09):
Oh no.
Jerry (49:13):
Robert you have.
I Can imagine like your writingis got to be incredible, and I
know it's all over the interinterwebs like how come people
continue to follow you and hearwhat you read, what you're
writing about, or even hearabout it?
Robert (49:29):
well, I have, I have.
I have my own blog.
It's called talking shop forfiring mess.
I think talking shop is kind ofa common term for us and that
on that blog I know that's mine.
So I, I, I write my thoughts,my feelings, my opinions.
Boy, one of the biggest ones,that whoo when I when I wrote a
(49:54):
blog about Interior structuralfirefighters should be obsolete.
Jerry (50:03):
Yeah.
I can't imagine why you wouldget any feedback on that.
Robert (50:06):
Oh no, it wasn't.
It wasn't like it wasn't, likeI said.
Oh, we shouldn't fight fire.
Jerry (50:14):
Yeah.
Robert (50:15):
Okay, but we got to get a heck of a lot smarter at how
we do it.
Okay, I mean, we got we got thebest turnout gear on the planet
, right?
So why we still getting cancer?
Why are we still getting peoplekilled in fires?
Jerry (50:40):
I have my own opinion.
Do you want it?
Robert (50:43):
Yeah, I.
Jerry (50:46):
Think a lot of it is.
People feel like it's part ofthe job.
I can run the chainsaw, do allthis crap, every check out and
every day, no hearing protection.
I can go into the fire notwearing all my Protection, right
, not my hood, you know there,it's just in.
It's endless, it's endless.
(51:06):
I feel like Firefighters justlike this is this part of the
job?
This is what it?
You know, I worked 25 in your25 years in the fire service Are
the job is getting cancer.
Our job is this.
It's not.
I'm here to tell you it's notpart of the job.
It's.
If it is, you're making it partof the job.
Robert (51:23):
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
But you know, and I I didn'tthink so then, I don't think so
now, I don't think my approachwas that off the wall.
Okay, we, we've now, for atleast 10 years, we've had the
concept of of transitional fireattack, where the hit it hard
(51:47):
from the order, wherever youwant to call it okay, but I mean
there, there you look, and onceagain, because because we've
brought science Into theequation right, we got all that
testing by NIST and UL and NewYork Fire Department on
structures and and you can'targue the fact that when you use
(52:11):
a transitional attack you'veessentially reset the
environment.
I mean, when you watch thosethermal cup Temperatures go
Right, all right.
So you do a transitional attack, you reset the environment, all
right.
And now who goes in to do themop, the mop up and the end to
(52:33):
finish the job?
Not people wearing firefighter,ppe, people wearing chemical
protective equipment, because wekeep saying fires, today's
fires are like has mad incident.
Why don't we approach them likethere has mad?
Jerry (52:51):
It's a great.
It's a great question becausemost of the I mean Right, we
know whether we should come outand decon after fires, but how
often is that happening?
It's a man.
I don't want to wash my gear, Idon't want to be in my backup
set of gear or I don't have thebackup.
Robert (53:09):
Well, the other thing, too, is all right.
I'm dealing with the realitiesof the job right in Many fire
departments.
It's not a case of me going inand Coming out and I'm done.
Right right, I might have to, Imight have to recycle and go
(53:30):
back in for another tour.
My approach Essentially doesaway with that.
Right, because nobody reallygoes into the structure without
the proper level of PPE.
Right, I mean, you can, you cango in, you can go into a.
The army's got it, the army'sgot chemical protective clothing
(53:54):
.
That's good to like 300 degreesBefore it fails.
Right, if I can get theinterior temperature of a
structure down around 200degrees or less Through a
transitional attack.
And While that's going on, I'mgetting, I'm getting two or
(54:14):
three guys suited up in a, in ayou know One and done Hasmat
suits that we have now, right,zip them up, send them in there,
make sure the fires out, startdoing the ventilation stuff,
right, and now, when they'redone, they come out.
And they come out like they'vebeen in a hasmat.
(54:36):
Yeah, I don't see this, see,but see, but see.
That's not the way we've alwaysdone.
That's right.
No, you're right.
And, and you know, to quote oneof Bert Clark's, you know of
Touchstones is Send thefirefighters DNA fast, close,
(54:59):
wet, get there as fast as youcan, get as close to the fire as
you can and put the wet stuffon the redstone.
Yeah, man, that that has comefrom the bucket brigade days.
Right, when if you didn't getthere fast, pretty good chance
the whole town is gonna burndown, right, yeah, had to get
(55:21):
close because you can only throwa bucket of water so far.
Right, and obviously you putwet stuff on there, stuff.
Well, here we are.
250, 260 years later, we gotfire streams that can extend a
couple hundred yards, right.
Yeah, yeah we can put as muchwater on the fire as we want.
(55:43):
We're not limited by the numberof buckets or, or, or.
You know how big the wagon wasor any of that stuff.
But you know, we're I alwaysequate it to like in the Civil
War, right, besides the factthat we lost a whole bunch of
(56:03):
people to disease, right campliving and all that, when you
look at the, you look at thedeaths from firearms, right, the
biggest cause of that was thefact that Generals on both sides
had not accepted the rifledmusket.
(56:24):
The rifled musket which whichcame about in the Crimeanian
Wars, which several officers onboth sides were over there as
observers, right, they broughtthe tactics back with them, but
they didn't, but they didn'tbring a true understanding of
(56:45):
what a game changer the riflemusket was.
Because now, instead of havingto get close Because my, my
muzzle loader a single shotmuzzle loader Was only accurate
to maybe 50 or 60 yards, right,which is why the backup plan was
(57:08):
always the bayonet.
Yeah, right, yeah, if I don'tget you with the shot, well, now
I'm close enough that I get youwith the bayonet.
Well, with the rifle musket,all of a sudden, now you could
shoot a couple hundred yardswith a pretty high degree of
accuracy, a Rifled musket,launching a frontal attack on
(57:32):
guys who have rice rifle muskets, that's like.
That's like throwing somebodyinto a wood chipper.
Yeah and that's exactly whatwould happen.
Yeah you know you got, you got.
You got the guys who areplaying defense behind you know
Good embankments and they got arifle that can shoot you down
(57:53):
from two, three hundred yardsaway.
Not a great recipe for success,and I think more and more fire
service leaders have to have toembrace the notion that Some of
our tactics are unrightfulmuskets.
Yeah, yeah and agree with youand Unfortunately fire is still
(58:17):
the defensive position, that'sgot rifle muskets.
Jerry (58:22):
Yeah, I like.
I like the analogy and we'renot.
Robert (58:25):
We're not gonna get any better of what we're doing by
continuing to launch frontalassaults on fires.
Okay, we got it.
We got to use flankingmaneuvers transitional attack
over here At the window that'sgot fire out of it, right, and
while we got the fires,attention over there Getting
(58:46):
ready to make attack over here.
Yeah and doing it, and doing itin chemical protective clothing
.
It's just, you know, we, we,just we.
We have to get better at that.
Jerry (59:04):
Yeah, yep, there's certainly a lot of things that
need to happen and change.
Where can people find you andfollow you?
You have the talk shop blog.
Robert (59:15):
Maya Maya.
My blog is a fire EMS leaderpro all lowercase org.
Okay, they can.
They can also reach me onLinkedIn.
I'm linked in Robert, I havesecond on LinkedIn and Also I've
(59:37):
I've got the on Facebook.
I've got the talking shop Is ais a link page on my Facebook.
Jerry (59:48):
Very good, robert.
Thank you so much for being ongreat conversation.
I'm excited to release thisepisode and get some
thought-provoking you knowthoughts out there, oh.
Robert (01:00:03):
I'm sure we tweaked a few.
Jerry (01:00:05):
Yeah.
Robert (01:00:07):
That's what you write right.
That's what you do, man.
You keep People as peoplefrequently will say, you know
whether it's me, whethersomebody else who's right being
something and they go.
You know what are you thinking?
No, it's not what I wasthinking.
It's what I want you to getthinking about.
(01:00:30):
Okay, I'm not saying I got allthe answers, but I believe I've
got most of the questions.
You know and I think is.
I think it's it's ourobligation, whether it's whether
it's through the written word,whether it's through mediums
like podcast.
It's our obligation as, asthose who have survived right.
Jerry (01:00:55):
Yeah.
Robert (01:00:56):
Now the question, so that today's, today's fire
service leaders say we got tofind the answer to that question
right there.
Jerry (01:01:05):
Right right.
Robert (01:01:07):
That's a great thing we need.
We need to work on how do wekeep our folks connected when
they're out.
Yeah yeah, you know, whetherit's an ankle injury, whether
it's cancer treatment, whetherit's, you know, behavioral
health issue, you know, andwhatever takes a guy or a gal
(01:01:28):
away from the job for any lengthof time A fire department.
I just think you got a moralobligation To take care of them
while they're out there.
Jerry (01:01:39):
I agree, I agree.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on today, robert.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks for taking the time somuch, so much for your 30
minutes.
Robert (01:01:47):
Huh, that's all right.
Jerry (01:01:49):
I was like it was going so good.
I was like Thank you, so Roll,yeah, roll with it.
Yeah, jerry, thank you so muchfor the opportunity.
Robert (01:02:01):
You're most welcome.
I appreciate it.
Ad (01:02:06):
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(01:02:49):
Guest.
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
Podcast.
I'm host Jerry Dean Lund and ifyou haven't already done so,
please take out your phone andhit that subscribe button.
I don't want you to miss anupcoming episode.
And hey, while your phone's out, please give us a rating and
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On whichever platform youlisten to this podcast on, such
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(00:24):
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Podcasts and Spotify show thisto other people that never
listened to this podcast before,and that allows our podcast to
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So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isRobert Absteck.
How you doing, robert?
Robert (00:45):
I'm doing well, jerry.
Thanks for having me.
Jerry (00:48):
Yeah, thank you for taking time to be on.
Robert, can you introduceyourself to the audience?
Robert (00:54):
Hi audience.
Jerry (00:56):
He's got quite a background, so this could be
good.
Robert (01:01):
I'm Robert Absteck.
As Jerry said, I'm a retiredfire department battalion chief,
served with the women and menof the Chesterfield Virginia
Fire and EMS department for 26years.
Been retired now 16 years,which is wow.
I just realized that a coupleof days ago.
And then in my second career Idid a couple of different things
(01:25):
and then really found my nicheas a freelance writer and
writing online content for fireand EMS trade journals, because
everybody has to have contentthese days and you know just
have been very fortunate to beable to.
I was kind of working from homebefore it was cool or required.
Jerry (01:50):
That's good, you got a head start.
Robert (01:53):
Yeah, yeah, so I've also .
You know, during my fireservice career I was an
instructor for not only my owndepartment but Virginia
Department of Fire Programs hada wonderful opportunity for 10
years to be a contractinstructor with the National
Fire Academy.
I think I was very fortunate Ionly lived 190 miles away from
(02:19):
Amnusburg so I was able to bid alot of classes without airfare
involved.
So I think somewhere around 40deliveries on campus, basically
the two-day state weekendprograms, which are fabulous,
(02:40):
fabulous.
I highly recommend anybodywho's number one if you've never
been to the fire academy before, go.
Number two especially if you'rea volunteer firefighter, you
know, get hooked up with yourstate weekend.
I mean that's just a fabulouslearning opportunity.
(03:01):
You know, I remember.
I remember like one of thefirst or second times I taught
on campus and it was MichiganState Weekend and three tour
buses rolled up into the parkinglot.
Like this is a big deal, yeah.
Jerry (03:21):
That's awesome.
What did you teach there?
Robert (03:25):
I started out, the very first course I ever taught was
the supervisor's role ininfection control.
You know, back in the late 90sWell, actually the early 90s,
you know when we first startedpaying attention to gloves and
masks and gowns to protect usfrom blood-borne pathogens.
(03:46):
Then the next series I got intowas the incident command system
for EMS, so helping to bringthat perspective to incident
command for those firedepartments to provide EMS.
And you know, we startedgetting folks from
(04:09):
non-fire-based EMS coming tothose classes as well.
And then I think the last thingI was involved with was the
response to terrorist activitiestype of stuff.
So yeah, it was a good 10-yearrun.
Ad (04:30):
Yeah.
Robert (04:32):
And the fire academy folks were absolutely fabulous.
I had the opportunity to meetand chat with Dr Dennis O'Neill
on many occasions, especially onSaturday mornings.
He'd come knocking on the doorto your classroom and you know
he'd have his khakis and hisbutton-down shirt on, you know.
(04:52):
But looking looking at DrO'Neill casual and saying, you
know, the wife sent me out forsome milk and bread and I
figured I'd stop in and see howthings are going.
You know, and it's just, it wasjust always a pleasure to see
the good doctor knocking at yourdoor.
Jerry (05:09):
That's very, very cool, very cool experience to be at
the National Fire Academy Lovedevery time I was able to make it
out there.
It was an incredible experience, and meeting people from all
over the country was the bonus.
You know, just getting thedifferent perspectives of
everybody in their differentdepartments and what they were
going through in life and theirdifferent struggles was was
(05:32):
pretty eye-opening.
So I, too, suggest you go tothe National Fire Academy.
Robert, you're part of the FireService Psychology Association,
is that correct?
Robert (05:42):
Yes, yes, fspa.
Jerry (05:45):
FSPA.
What do you do for FSPA?
Robert (05:49):
Well, we're an organization we started back in
2017 by a psychologist inSouthern California, dr Kristen
Weldon, and our you know we'remade up of fire service folks,
psychologists, other mentalhealth professionals like
clinical social workers andlicensed clinical counselors and
(06:13):
our goal is to help bridge thatgap between professional
psychology and the fire service.
Okay, because there's a.
There's a real lack of mentalhealth professionals who know
what we do, why we do it, theconditions under which we do it,
et cetera, and, at the sametime, on the other side of the
(06:36):
river is the fire service thatdoesn't really understand what
all this mental health stuff is.
Right, but we know.
But we know we got a.
We got a behavioral healthepidemic on our hands.
Jerry (06:50):
Yes.
Robert (06:50):
Right, and you know, and and certainly you can do us any
favors in that regard, you know, but we're we're losing more
firefighters to suicide than weare on duty injuries.
Jerry (07:04):
Sure.
Robert (07:04):
And that's you know, and and and all the members who are
undergoing cancer treatment andtherapy people.
You know that has certainlybeen on the big spot on the on
the the fire service agendacancer and firefighters.
But you know, the thing that Ithink doesn't get talked about
(07:27):
enough is what's the, what's thepsychological aspect of that
cancer care, right, I mean, youknow, as, as firefighters, the
worst thing for us is being offthe job.
Jerry (07:39):
Right.
Robert (07:41):
You know it's, you know you're, you're, it's, it's
almost like you've been takenaway from your family and put
over here for however long ittakes to come back.
And so you know, we, especiallyat FSPA, we, we feel like you
know, yes, there's a lot ofissues that are affecting
(08:04):
firefighter behavioral,behavioral and mental health.
Let's not forget the cancer,the folks who are going through
those, those long-term cancertreatments, et cetera.
But you know that's also abehavioral health component.
Yeah, not taking, not takinganything away from the
(08:24):
oncologist.
Jerry (08:25):
Right.
Actually treating the disease,but yeah, when you have an
element like that, there's right, there's, or pretty much any
element, right, there's a mentalaspect of it and there's the
physical aspect of it, you can'treally separate them.
They're combined into one.
Robert (08:44):
No well, I mean, you know it's always at least I
think it is one of those thingsthat's always on the mind of a
of a firefighter.
You know we're likeprofessional athletes.
You know we're only one entryaway from a career ending and we
don't and we don't know if andwhen that will come.
(09:04):
I mean, you know, obviously,with you know, over the past
couple, the decade or so, youknow we've become a lot more
aware of the physical aspects ofthe job and you know a lot of
firefighters are taking bettercare of themselves, et cetera.
But still, you know we're we'rewe're tactical athletes.
Yeah, you know, and and the jobis it's.
(09:27):
You know I wrote, you know Iwrote a book about one time, I
wrote an article, the seventruths about fire service
retirement, and one of them isyou finally get treatment for
all those knee and shoulderinjuries that you didn't get
taken care of on the job,because, number one, here again,
it would have taken you awayfrom the job, whether it was,
(09:49):
you know, eight or nine monthsto rehab an ACL injury or a, you
know three or four months,because you got to get a rotator
cuff fixed.
You know, I got mine fixed in2019.
You know so we, you know we.
There's a, there's a, there's alot there.
Jerry (10:10):
Yeah, I was hurt on the job and I was out 500 days and
uh, wow, yeah, that that led medown to a road, you know, of
wanting to take my own lifebecause of that.
And I think part of that waslike being gone from the
department, like kind of beingright, when you're on workers
comp there's very strict rulesabout how you can engage and,
(10:31):
with your department, how muchtime you can spend there.
So trying to play by all thoserules and then you just kind of,
after being gone that long, youkind of fade away as a as a
memory a little bit.
But then on my side that gaveme let's see, I've been in my
career 20 plus 20 plus yearswith my volunteering part to
your time to think abouteverything that had seen and
(10:54):
gone through in my life.
And so when you're sitting athome trying to rehab, those
thoughts just creep up and theyget wicked.
Robert (11:05):
Wow, wow.
And there there's a perfectexample of what we were talking
about just a couple of minutesago.
Yeah, you know, it's not justthe physical injury and it's not
just having, you know,behavioral health persons
whether it's a psychologist or aclinical social worker to work
with.
It's addressing those thingslike workers comp policies that
(11:31):
limit your ability to stayconnected with your, with your
organization.
You know, and and even from anorganizational perspective,
right to recognize that.
Hey, you know, if, if we gotsomebody who's going to be out
for let's just say, three months, four months, right, that's the
(11:52):
projected time that they'regonna come, fire departments
need to develop mechanisms tokeep you connected.
Jerry (12:00):
Yes.
Robert (12:00):
Right, whether it's gathering everybody who's out on
sick leave or injury leaveright now for lunch, once a
month or every couple of weeksor whatever and engaging with
the leadership of theorganization to let you know hey
, jerry, you're still our guy.
Jerry (12:23):
Yes.
Robert (12:26):
How's your rehab going?
Is there anything you needHearing that kind of thing from
the white shirts?
That's important stuff.
Jerry (12:37):
Yeah.
Robert (12:38):
And what does it cost?
Jerry (12:41):
Not much at all.
Not much at all.
Robert (12:43):
Wait less than it is to fire me and then to retrain me.
Jerry (12:48):
That got so disconnected from my fire department that
they end up wanting to fire mewhile I was out, and that was
crazy.
Yeah, crazy, that's what I meanright Through another downward
spiral of you know.
With all that happening, Iwanted to take my own life.
Robert (13:11):
Yeah, let's throw another brick on his load, right
, right.
Jerry (13:16):
Making less money because you're out on work.
You can't work.
All your other side hustles, soyou're trying to survive
filling off all your prizedpossessions to maintain.
Robert (13:27):
There you go.
Maintaining food there you gothere's another aspect of the
physical injury that we don'tgive enough emphasis to, and
that is you know I dare saythere's probably very few
firefighters out there who aremaking it on their firefighter
salary, right, you know whetherit's to, you know, pay for their
(13:52):
kid's education, or you know,getting that bigger house
because the family's gottenbigger, or whatever.
But you know, now, all of asudden bing, you know you blow
out a knee and you're out forfive or six months.
Boy, that's a big hitfinancially.
(14:14):
So you know, there again, right.
Jerry (14:17):
Yeah.
Robert (14:18):
There are things that fire departments could do, you
know, working with the localcredit union to give you, you
know, extremely low interestloan or whatever to carry it
through that particular period.
You know whatever, yeah, andthat's you know at least
recognize and address that.
That's another element that wehave to overcome if we're gonna
(14:41):
get Jerry back on the job trulyin the three or four months that
the medical people are talkingabout.
Jerry (14:49):
Yeah, right, and I think to you know to go with that and
what you're saying.
You know, if you're thatconnected and still staying part
of the department, I feel likethat's gonna allow you to heal
faster because you're notworried about your job, keeping
your job.
You're already stressed aboutyour injury.
So the more stress you have, Ifeel like the slower generally
(15:11):
you're gonna heal.
Robert (15:12):
Oh, oh.
Without a doubt, the medicalfolks will tell you that all the
time.
Okay, If you've got, if you'restressed out and you have a high
level of stress, that's lessenergy that your body is
devoting to that part of yourimmune system that's supposed to
be rebuilding.
Jerry (15:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Robert (15:34):
You know.
So it's again we know.
I think the biggest thing thatwe can take away from this is
helping fire departments andfirefighters realize that an
injury is not just an injury.
It's got a mental healthcomponent, it's got a financial
(15:56):
component, it's got a moralecomponent.
You know, and I wrote a piece acouple of years ago for
firerescueonecom about this, youknow, getting firefighters back
on the job, et cetera, and itwas Denver.
Denver Fire Department hadinitiated this program.
(16:20):
They had opened up a health andwellness center, right.
So they had their own,basically, rehab facility and
when firefighters got hurt, okay, that became their new
assignment.
Your new assignment is to showup at rehab Monday through
(16:42):
Friday, for you know whateverblock of time you should be
doing rehab, right.
So their approach was like thatof professional professional
teams or college teams, whereyou know your star quarterback
goes down with an Achilles tear,right, they're not sitting at
(17:04):
home for nine months, they'reshowing up at rehab every day.
That's their new job assignment.
And I think that would.
I think that if moredepartments could do that kind
of thing there again, there'sanother way to keep you
connected with the departmentright.
(17:27):
And also, you know it makes youfeel better because you're
going.
You know I'm not I don't meanto say this in any negative way
you know helps you feel likeyou're not a slug.
Jerry (17:41):
Yeah.
Robert (17:42):
You know the hey, I'm working, you know I'm putting in
the work every day, just likemy buddy's back at the fire
station, right, and also thathelps with the folks at the fire
station.
Yeah, you know, hey, we knowwhere to find Jerry, monday
through Friday, from eight to 12, right, so maybe they get off,
(18:05):
maybe they get it off duty andthey swing by and they spend 10
or 15 minutes with you.
Jerry (18:11):
Right, you know.
Robert (18:12):
But at least they know what Jerry's doing.
Jerry (18:17):
I couldn't agree with you more.
Robert (18:19):
Jerry's working his buns off to get back on the job.
And then when you do return tothe job, right, it's not the,
it's Jerry.
Up this yeah.
You know it's hey, welcome backbuddy, welcome back Boy.
(18:40):
You were really kicking ass inthat rehab, weren't you?
Jerry (18:44):
Yeah.
Robert (18:45):
There's just so many upsides to this.
Jerry (18:48):
I like it.
I mean cause it means make merethink some of the what I went
through during those 500 daysand what I didn't feel.
I mean and it's just, I'm notaccusing anybody right I didn't
feel valued.
I didn't feel valued to myself,I didn't feel of value to my
family, right Cause I'm not, youknow, being the most sure or
(19:11):
take the load that I need tofinancially, and I don't feel of
value to the department becauseI can't work.
So then I sit there by myselfand feel of no value and you
know, when you don't feel ofvalue, it tends to lead you to
some pretty suicidal, ideational, you know, thoughts.
Robert (19:34):
Loneliness is a real bitch.
Yeah, yeah, and you know, andthat's, that's one of the things
that you know.
We at the fire servicepsychology association talk with
firefighters and firedepartments, et cetera.
You know when they you know youtalk about.
Well, how do you, how do youknow somebody's struggling, or
(19:58):
whatever?
I said, when you see a personwho used to be part of the group
and now they're off bythemselves, that should be the,
that should be one of the firstred fly.
Not that you gotta say, oh,let's go get him and and take
him to, but that should be thefirst sign that says Jerry,
what's up man?
Jerry (20:16):
Yeah.
Robert (20:18):
What's up, man?
You know, that's where, that'swhere the buddy system really
needs to come into play and and,and that's one of the things
that we're working towards isdeveloping training and
guidelines, et cetera.
That works with stuff that'salready out there.
I mean, there's been stuff putout by the IAWF, by the IAFC, by
(20:40):
the National Volunteer FireCouncil, okay, and so in a lot
of cases we're not looking to toto rewrite the books or
whatever, but you know, a lot oftimes there's so much stuff
that's in these silos, right,and they can be five feet apart
and don't know what each silo isdoing.
(21:01):
And so that's why we're, youknow, I think that's the beauty
of our organization is becausewe have fire service folks,
because we have the mentalhealth folks, we're always
getting both perspectives, infact.
In fact, one of the things thisis a very rare thing right here
.
Okay, you got a real rare thinggoing on and that is me on your
(21:23):
podcast talking about the fireservice psychology associates,
because our general philosophyis it's always two of us, always
a fire service person, alwaysone of our psychology folks, so
that it's you're.
You're always getting that same, that same bilingual
(21:43):
perspective.
Jerry (21:45):
Yeah.
Robert (21:46):
And and that we have found that that is and I would
highly recommend that to anybodywho's working in their local
community Okay, the fire servicefolks, get out there and learn
who your mental health folks areRight, get them interested in
learning about who you are Right.
(22:06):
And so then, when you starttalking about how can we, how
can we get things done, how canwe start addressing some of
those issues about the injuredfirefighter or the firefighter
who's undergoing cancertreatment, or the firefighter
who, jerry, comes to us and says, hey, I think, I think Robert
(22:30):
is having a rough go, you know,maybe, maybe you know we should
try to give him a little push inthe right direction there.
Okay, but cause, you know oneand you know one of the biggest
things that we're the encounter,and that is, hey, fire service
(22:51):
is a very parochial profession,Right, very parochial.
We've got a long history of oh,we'll solve our own problem,
right, for the longest timethere was a, there was that
resistance to the, to the cancerfolks.
Jerry (23:10):
Yeah.
Robert (23:10):
Right, we didn't want to , we didn't want to address that
.
What are the true hazards thatwe're being exposed to on the?
You know?
Thankfully now we're havingthose fruitful conversations and
and the training programs andthe treatment programs and and
so forth.
But you know what?
We still got people coming downwith cancer, you're right.
(23:34):
And we still have, and we stillhave firefighters and fire
officers who aren't followingthe guidelines, who aren't doing
the right things.
Dr Burton Clark, retiredretired guy from the fire
academy and author, and so forth.
He's a member of ourorganization.
The guy's got to be like 105years old, right, still still
(24:00):
getting it done.
But you know what's one of themost frustrating things for the
good doctor is 25, almost 30years later, after he developed
the firefight, the nationalfirefighter sequel pledge right.
We still got 50% of firefighterswho aren't wearing their seat
(24:20):
belts.
You know it was back.
I think it was November.
Yeah, I think it was November.
I kept track and we had sixfirefighter fatalities where the
firefighters were ejected fromthe vehicle.
(24:41):
Okay, when you look at today'sfire apparatus, look at what the
manufacturers have done toprotect us.
With the whole roll bar cageconcept for the cab, you got
airbags from every direction.
I mean, I've written on thistopic many, many times and they
(25:07):
got systems now that are tellingthe airbags you should be
deploying even before the impactoccurs because the vehicle's
orientation is off center, right.
Yeah, so you don't even have towait.
You don't even with thosesystems.
You don't even have to wait forthe apparatus to land on its
(25:29):
side.
It's already deploying theairbags because the onboard
computer is going.
You can't recover from this.
This is not good.
You know.
So we got all this stuff thatthe manufacturers are doing to
protect us and we can't put iton our seatbelt.
Now there's a psychologicalaspect of firefighting that
(25:53):
really needs to be addressed,and it's not just that, it's a
host of other things that youknow.
We give you the knowledge, giveyou the education, we give you
the training.
So why does an officer not goout and do a 360 assessment and
(26:14):
realize, so that they don't knowwhat's going on on the Charlie
side of the building andsomebody gets hurt or, worse,
somebody dies?
Jerry (26:23):
Yeah, you know most.
Excuse me, most of the wayyou're talking about, robert, I
feel is like the fire service ingeneral is we have gotten to a
great place of knowing what todo.
Knowing what to do, knowing youknow more about mental health,
knowing more like what you'retalking about, apparatus more,
(26:44):
but we're not doing.
We're not doing.
The initiative of doing thesethings is not.
It's just it's not landing inthe right places and it's not
been set into people's brains todo it and that's, and that's.
Robert (26:59):
That's the big point that in fact Dr Clark just had
an article published infirerescueonecom about the need
to get psychology involved inthe NIOSH firefighter fatality
investigations.
Okay, it's, you know, it's nolonger good enough to to
(27:23):
investigate a line of duty,death and say, oh, you know, and
you know they don't, they don'tseek to to point blame, right.
In fact, I think they go togreat lengths not to Right, I
agree.
They, you know they always windup with that list of
recommendations.
You know fire departmentsshould have standard operating
guidelines for these types offires.
(27:44):
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Jerry (27:46):
Yeah.
Robert (27:46):
It's the same stuff every time.
Okay, and Dr Clark's point,which is which is our, which is
our stance at FSPA, is we needto get psychology involved in
those investigations to find outwhy it happened.
Jerry (28:04):
Yeah.
Robert (28:05):
Okay, we, we got a great understanding of what happened.
Okay, but we don't understandwhy.
Because we don't understandwhat was going on leading up to
that.
Jerry (28:18):
The chain of the events that happened before Right.
Robert (28:20):
Yeah, what?
What was the?
You know what do they call itin risk management?
You know what is the failuretree?
Look like, Because unless we,unless we get a clear picture of
of what that, what that failuresequence looked like, we don't
(28:41):
know what's the best place tointervene.
Jerry (28:45):
Yeah.
Robert (28:45):
You know Dr Weldon, who founded FSPA.
She's our president and CEO.
She cut her teeth in theCalifornia correction system,
Okay.
And shortly before, shortlybefore she got hired, they had a
(29:06):
spat of inmate deaths.
Now there's like eight or ninein a in a two or three month
period, right.
And so about the time she cameon the job, they started, they
started what they call forensicautopsy and they looked at every
one of those deaths and saidand found out what was the chain
(29:29):
of events that led this personto take their own life in the
correctional facility?
Okay, and and that theoutgrowth of that became a
process of evaluation, right.
That the psychologist in the inthe correctional facility would
(29:51):
engage in when the inmate firstarrived, right.
Jerry (29:55):
Yeah.
Robert (29:56):
And they would be able and it gave them an objective
criteria to say this person'slow, medium, high risk of taking
their own life in this facility.
Because one of the big thingsthey found out when they you
know, here again, biggest partsometimes is just connecting all
the dots, but one of thebiggest things they found was
(30:18):
with those eight or nine inmatefatalities was they were
happening within 72 hours ofbeing in the facility and so you
know what they found was thatyou know when they would, when
they would use this process andthey identify the person is a
(30:40):
low risk.
But the fact that they've, thefact that they've earned some
points on the process to beginwith going to keep a little bit
of a closer eye on this personright, whereas the person who's
the high risk we need to do somepsychological intervention
(31:00):
before we put this person into aprison population.
Jerry (31:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Robert (31:04):
Okay.
So you know it's that type ofthing that you know we
envisioned could really benefitthe firefighter line of duty
death investigation process thatNIOSH engages in.
Right, we're dealing with humanbeings, right?
I mean, when the airlineindustry, you know, 30 years ago
(31:29):
or whatever, was experiencingyou know far too many human
behavior crashes, right, andthey developed the cockpit room
management, right, it shouldcome as no surprise that there
were psychologists involved inthat, because they they said,
(31:51):
look, we got to understandwhat's what led up to this event
, right, yeah, you know, youdon't just have a plane crashing
and a 25 or 20 year captain atthe helm, you just don't make a
mistake like that out of theblue.
Yeah, and the more they came tounderstand that that's what
(32:15):
they built into their simulatorprocess and and and you know so
it was not only, it wasn't onlythe the technical training of
how to better hand, they all hadthe training.
My god, they've been, they'vebeen flying the airplanes for
years.
Jerry (32:35):
Yeah.
Robert (32:36):
What went, what went wrong, had nothing to do with
the airplane.
It had to do with what wasgoing on here, and you know when
you, when you look at the bigfield, it seems these days in,
in, in, especially professionalsports, but even major college
(32:57):
sports, is the sportspsychologist.
Jerry (33:00):
Yeah.
Robert (33:00):
Okay, now what do you think this person is bringing to
the table?
Right, they're not helping mehit better.
They're not helping me passbetter Right.
They're helping to get rid ofthe stuff that's going on in
here that is hindering me frombeing the best player I could be
(33:21):
.
Jerry (33:21):
Right.
Robert (33:22):
Right, and that's that's another aspect of psychology
can offer to the fire services.
When we're doing this incidentcommand training, when we're
putting people throughsimulations of events to you
know where we need the psychcoach right To help this person.
(33:44):
Help this person, help me makebetter decisions than that
simulator, because if I'm makingbetter decisions than that
simulator, I'm going to makebetter decisions on the fire
ground or the emergency scene.
Jerry (33:58):
Yeah, no, you're right, you're right.
I guess the biggest challengeto a lot of that is the lack of
psychologists out there to helpdo these important things.
Robert (34:13):
Exactly, Exactly.
But, like I said, you've gotthe psychology on this side of
the river and the fire serviceon this side of the river, right
.
I think sometimes there's ahesitancy on the part of the
fire service to okay, how do weget them over here?
It's more like well, how arethey going to get over here?
Jerry (34:37):
Yeah.
Robert (34:39):
And that's why we found that the more that we can engage
, the more that we can realizethat, hey, it'll be like a
transcontinental railroad You'vegot to come from two directions
.
Jerry (34:54):
Yeah.
Robert (34:55):
Right.
Jerry (34:56):
Yeah.
Robert (34:58):
And you know the great book.
I forget who the author was.
I always get confused DavidMcCullough or Stephen Ambrose
but the greatest thing on Earthis the story of the
transcontinental railroad beingbuilt.
Okay, which was the last majorengineering project in the world
(35:21):
that was done by hand.
They tried to have shovels acouple of times on the coming
from the California side.
It didn't work so good, butanyway, the point of this is
there was a very good reason whyone railroad company wasn't
given the whole contract to goeither from east to west or west
(35:44):
to east, and that was becauseof the Rocky Mountains.
Okay, the railroad company overhere in the east.
They were real good at buildingrailroads on flat ground.
Yeah, guys over here inCalifornia.
They were very good at buildingrailroads where you had to go
(36:04):
over hills, valleys, you know,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Plus, they wanted to get thisthing done in a hurry.
Jerry (36:11):
Right.
Robert (36:12):
Okay, but you know, those necessities, those driving
forces are what helped usachieve that particular
accomplishment I think, asimilar, you know.
I think that's a great analogy,for what psychology and the
fire service needs to do is wehave to recognize that neither
(36:33):
one of us is going to get thisbridge built all by ourselves.
Jerry (36:37):
Amen Okay.
Robert (36:38):
The fire service has got to.
The fire service has to realizelook, it's our job to get at
least halfway across the river.
Psychology it's our job to atleast get halfway across the
river, because if we each gethalfway across with that bridge,
(36:58):
guess what?
We're driving that golden spike.
Jerry (37:02):
Yeah.
Robert (37:04):
Well, probably wouldn't drive a golden spike but yeah,
you know what?
I mean yeah, you know what Imean.
The perverted wheel of goldenspike, and that's yeah, yeah, I
mean that's why it's soimportant.
You know, we in my mind wereally didn't start making
really great strides in ourapproach to cancer with
(37:27):
firefighters until theoncologists started getting
involved, until we startedgetting research done, like the
folks are doing down at theUniversity of Miami I think it's
the Sylvester Cancer Center.
You know it's getting thosekinds of resources involved so
(37:51):
that we're not only developingtreatment programs but we're
also developing the researchthat helps us understand why are
firefighters getting cancer?
Where are the greatest threatsof firefighter getting cancer?
That's data-based decisionmaking, right, I think.
(38:13):
Sometimes in the fire service,in too many situations it's
still, I think, I feel I believemethod of decision making, and
you know we can do better thanthat.
I agree.
And we have to do better thanthat, especially if we're going
(38:36):
to attract young people to thisprofession.
Okay, yeah, you know, they'vegot to know that.
You know how many people do youthink NASA would have recruited
to be astronauts if one out ofthree blew up?
Jerry (38:56):
Yeah, not many.
Robert (38:58):
Not many, not many.
I mean that was.
I'm sure that was a huge partof their successful recruitment
of astronauts.
After the Mercury 7, right yeah, Was the safety record.
You know, yeah, there was riskinvolved.
(39:19):
But, boy, look at what we do tomake it as safe as possible and
, consequently, look whathappened when they strayed from
that safety culture.
We had the challenger.
Jerry (39:34):
Yeah.
Robert (39:35):
Okay, and you know that.
I'm sure that that took a hugechunk out of NASA's integrity,
nasa's credibility.
I don't know that itnecessarily hurt their astronaut
recruiting efforts, okay, but Ibet there was more than one of
(39:56):
them.
It's like this ain't as easy asI thought it was going to be.
Yeah, yeah, and the fireservices has.
You know, there are so manythings in our business that are
interrelated and yet we don'trealize it right.
Jerry (40:15):
Or do we, do we realize it and then just or just don't
want to maybe turn look at orturn a blind eye to it.
Robert (40:22):
Well, I think, I think, I think perhaps I just uncovered
a new stone and that is look,we're having trouble recruiting
people.
Maybe it's because we haven'tgotten as good as we need to be
with keeping firefighters fromgetting cancer, keeping
firefighters from taking theirown lives by suicide, keeping
(40:44):
firefighters from from whatevernegative things can happen
because of their work on the jobright, I mean, those are the,
those are the kinds of thingsthat that I think the recruiting
package of the future futurebeing tomorrow, all right that
(41:07):
fire departments would do wellto accentuate what it is we are
doing to make this a safe, saferprofession.
Okay, so that you can have asense of security.
I can, I can work for thisplace for 10 or 20 years and not
think that I've given up 10 or20 years of my life.
Jerry (41:30):
Yeah, so, robert, are you going to write an article about
this?
Robert (41:38):
Man.
Ad (41:40):
I got.
Robert (41:40):
I got so many ideas out of this conversation.
It ain't funny and I'll tellyou what.
You got a book in you and Iwould, I would, I would jump
with the opportunity to be yourghost writer, because anybody
who could, anybody who can comeback from 500 days off the job,
(42:06):
you no-transcript.
You file that underinspirational stories.
Jerry (42:13):
Yeah, I'm serious.
Robert (42:16):
I appreciate that, you know and and and you know in the
in the vein of, particularly inthe vein of how, how fire
departments could do a better.
You know how, how the mythicalfire department could do better
if they had an employee goingthrough a similar event.
(42:39):
Okay, what would you dodifferent?
Yeah or what would you do atall?
Yeah yeah, but I think thebiggest thing that that
certainly has come out of thisconversation for me is Is the
fact that man the dots doconnect, and and until until
(43:03):
we're absolutely certain that weIf connected all the dots, we
got to keep working at it.
You know we got a tie cancer,psychological health, financial
security, right, you know, allof those things have got family
dynamics right family dynamics.
(43:25):
Family dynamics, absolutely, youknow I and.
But you know the thing is thereare already wonderful models
out there, the things that ourmilitary services Do for their
soldiers sailors, airmen, okay,and there are families to to
(43:46):
keep to, you know.
Jerry (43:53):
Yeah, keep them connected right.
Robert (43:55):
I'm sure there will be some naysayers they does bull.
But you know, I, one of my, oneof my jobs after I retired was
I worked in in Crystal City,virginia, which is Technically
Arlington right, and I workedfor the Army's fire chief.
I was the contractor.
(44:16):
They were transferringInstallation management command
from Virginia to San Antonio,part of part of the the the, the
BRAC Move the shells around,Okay.
Okay, got to keep this Congressdistrict happy.
Yeah, okay, but working, workingfor the Army's fire chief, we
(44:40):
were responsible for for all theplanning and logistics for 82
Army installations worldwide.
Okay, and being an installationmanagement command, I mean on
the same floor of this of thishuge office building right right
next door, had law enforcement.
(45:01):
I had physical security, whichlaw enforcement handles
everything inside the fence.
Physical security handles thefence and everything outside of
it.
But also I, I came toappreciate how installation
management command operates,every one of those installations
like it's its own town and theand the and the base.
(45:25):
The base commander is the mayor.
Yeah okay, cuz cuz they, theygot to provide education, they
got to do the utility stuffstreets, roads, lights, okay.
But I also got to see a greatappreciation for how they work
(45:45):
to the families integrated,especially especially when you
look at the fact that you know,every two or three years you and
your family got to pick up Allyour shit and go someplace else.
Yeah right and boom, you andyour kids are now suddenly in a
new neighborhood.
Okay, a lot of it looksfamiliar because you know
(46:09):
there's only so much you can dowith a military base, right, but
still you got the same.
You got the same tools, thesame functions, etc.
And and a big part of that basecommander's obligation as the
mayor is to make sure that newfamilies are adequately
integrated into into thecommunity.
(46:31):
And so you know yeah, like yousay, you know the, the families
of our firefighters, right?
Jerry (46:41):
They're forgotten a lot.
Robert (46:43):
Yeah, but, and and you know, you know, you spoke of the
impact on you as an individualof being out that length of time
.
Wait what?
What kind of stress did thatput on your family?
Jerry (46:58):
Well into the, into the relationship.
Robert (47:01):
I tell you that well, you know, and and that I'm you
know, I'm just I'm sorry thatthat kind of thing happens.
Yeah but, but it's gonna keephappening Until again.
We there's another dot toconnect Right, or another silo
to break down Right, and that isto provide the necessary,
(47:26):
necessary support to the familyso that you know the spouse or
the significant other isn'tgoing.
How the hell are we gonna paythe bills next week?
You know, or you know, how do Iget Jerry out of this funk?
You know, or, if nothing else,to be able to recognize that
(47:48):
Jerry is in a phone.
Oh and what, what, what servicesare available to help both of
us Get out of this funk together?
Jerry (48:00):
Yeah, it's kind of like when you work, all those jobs
are your side, hustles andeverything, and then you're hurt
and then you land at home beingat home all the time.
Your family is not used to youbeing at home.
You're not used to being athome, and so here comes some
collision of, of, of thoughts,believes whatever, of.
Robert (48:23):
What's happening at home and there's a.
There's another aspect ofretirement yeah, yeah.
You know, all say like you say,all of a sudden you're not gone
Every other day, or or everythree days, or what are you know
, whatever the work schedule was.
Um, you know, I know who usedto laugh my, my wife would say,
(48:47):
and I would say something orsomething she go, chief Afsak is
the guy who went out that dooryesterday.
Okay, but he ain't the guy whocame in the door today.
Yeah, you're a robber.
Jerry (49:02):
Yeah.
Yeah yeah, but that's not easy.
Reality check, it's not easy.
Robert (49:09):
Oh no.
Jerry (49:13):
Robert you have.
I Can imagine like your writingis got to be incredible, and I
know it's all over the interinterwebs like how come people
continue to follow you and hearwhat you read, what you're
writing about, or even hearabout it?
Robert (49:29):
well, I have, I have.
I have my own blog.
It's called talking shop forfiring mess.
I think talking shop is kind ofa common term for us and that
on that blog I know that's mine.
So I, I, I write my thoughts,my feelings, my opinions.
Boy, one of the biggest ones,that whoo when I when I wrote a
(49:54):
blog about Interior structuralfirefighters should be obsolete.
Jerry (50:03):
Yeah.
I can't imagine why you wouldget any feedback on that.
Robert (50:06):
Oh no, it wasn't.
It wasn't like it wasn't, likeI said.
Oh, we shouldn't fight fire.
Jerry (50:14):
Yeah.
Robert (50:15):
Okay, but we got to get a heck of a lot smarter at how
we do it.
Okay, I mean, we got we got thebest turnout gear on the planet
, right?
So why we still getting cancer?
Why are we still getting peoplekilled in fires?
Jerry (50:40):
I have my own opinion.
Do you want it?
Robert (50:43):
Yeah, I.
Jerry (50:46):
Think a lot of it is.
People feel like it's part ofthe job.
I can run the chainsaw, do allthis crap, every check out and
every day, no hearing protection.
I can go into the fire notwearing all my Protection, right
, not my hood, you know there,it's just in.
It's endless, it's endless.
(51:06):
I feel like Firefighters justlike this is this part of the
job?
This is what it?
You know, I worked 25 in your25 years in the fire service Are
the job is getting cancer.
Our job is this.
It's not.
I'm here to tell you it's notpart of the job.
It's.
If it is, you're making it partof the job.
Robert (51:23):
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
But you know, and I I didn'tthink so then, I don't think so
now, I don't think my approachwas that off the wall.
Okay, we, we've now, for atleast 10 years, we've had the
concept of of transitional fireattack, where the hit it hard
(51:47):
from the order, wherever youwant to call it okay, but I mean
there, there you look, and onceagain, because because we've
brought science Into theequation right, we got all that
testing by NIST and UL and NewYork Fire Department on
structures and and you can'targue the fact that when you use
(52:11):
a transitional attack you'veessentially reset the
environment.
I mean, when you watch thosethermal cup Temperatures go
Right, all right.
So you do a transitional attack, you reset the environment, all
right.
And now who goes in to do themop, the mop up and the end to
(52:33):
finish the job?
Not people wearing firefighter,ppe, people wearing chemical
protective equipment, because wekeep saying fires, today's
fires are like has mad incident.
Why don't we approach them likethere has mad?
Jerry (52:51):
It's a great.
It's a great question becausemost of the I mean Right, we
know whether we should come outand decon after fires, but how
often is that happening?
It's a man.
I don't want to wash my gear, Idon't want to be in my backup
set of gear or I don't have thebackup.
Robert (53:09):
Well, the other thing, too, is all right.
I'm dealing with the realitiesof the job right in Many fire
departments.
It's not a case of me going inand Coming out and I'm done.
Right right, I might have to, Imight have to recycle and go
(53:30):
back in for another tour.
My approach Essentially doesaway with that.
Right, because nobody reallygoes into the structure without
the proper level of PPE.
Right, I mean, you can, you cango in, you can go into a.
The army's got it, the army'sgot chemical protective clothing
(53:54):
.
That's good to like 300 degreesBefore it fails.
Right, if I can get theinterior temperature of a
structure down around 200degrees or less Through a
transitional attack.
And While that's going on, I'mgetting, I'm getting two or
(54:14):
three guys suited up in a, in ayou know One and done Hasmat
suits that we have now, right,zip them up, send them in there,
make sure the fires out, startdoing the ventilation stuff,
right, and now, when they'redone, they come out.
And they come out like they'vebeen in a hasmat.
(54:36):
Yeah, I don't see this, see,but see, but see.
That's not the way we've alwaysdone.
That's right.
No, you're right.
And, and you know, to quote oneof Bert Clark's, you know of
Touchstones is Send thefirefighters DNA fast, close,
(54:59):
wet, get there as fast as youcan, get as close to the fire as
you can and put the wet stuffon the redstone.
Yeah, man, that that has comefrom the bucket brigade days.
Right, when if you didn't getthere fast, pretty good chance
the whole town is gonna burndown, right, yeah, had to get
(55:21):
close because you can only throwa bucket of water so far.
Right, and obviously you putwet stuff on there, stuff.
Well, here we are.
250, 260 years later, we gotfire streams that can extend a
couple hundred yards, right.
Yeah, yeah we can put as muchwater on the fire as we want.
(55:43):
We're not limited by the numberof buckets or, or, or.
You know how big the wagon wasor any of that stuff.
But you know, we're I alwaysequate it to like in the Civil
War, right, besides the factthat we lost a whole bunch of
(56:03):
people to disease, right campliving and all that, when you
look at the, you look at thedeaths from firearms, right, the
biggest cause of that was thefact that Generals on both sides
had not accepted the rifledmusket.
(56:24):
The rifled musket which whichcame about in the Crimeanian
Wars, which several officers onboth sides were over there as
observers, right, they broughtthe tactics back with them, but
they didn't, but they didn'tbring a true understanding of
(56:45):
what a game changer the riflemusket was.
Because now, instead of havingto get close Because my, my
muzzle loader a single shotmuzzle loader Was only accurate
to maybe 50 or 60 yards, right,which is why the backup plan was
(57:08):
always the bayonet.
Yeah, right, yeah, if I don'tget you with the shot, well, now
I'm close enough that I get youwith the bayonet.
Well, with the rifle musket,all of a sudden, now you could
shoot a couple hundred yardswith a pretty high degree of
accuracy, a Rifled musket,launching a frontal attack on
(57:32):
guys who have rice rifle muskets, that's like.
That's like throwing somebodyinto a wood chipper.
Yeah and that's exactly whatwould happen.
Yeah you know you got, you got.
You got the guys who areplaying defense behind you know
Good embankments and they got arifle that can shoot you down
(57:53):
from two, three hundred yardsaway.
Not a great recipe for success,and I think more and more fire
service leaders have to have toembrace the notion that Some of
our tactics are unrightfulmuskets.
Yeah, yeah and agree with youand Unfortunately fire is still
(58:17):
the defensive position, that'sgot rifle muskets.
Jerry (58:22):
Yeah, I like.
I like the analogy and we'renot.
Robert (58:25):
We're not gonna get any better of what we're doing by
continuing to launch frontalassaults on fires.
Okay, we got it.
We got to use flankingmaneuvers transitional attack
over here At the window that'sgot fire out of it, right, and
while we got the fires,attention over there Getting
(58:46):
ready to make attack over here.
Yeah and doing it, and doing itin chemical protective clothing
.
It's just, you know, we, we,just we.
We have to get better at that.
Jerry (59:04):
Yeah, yep, there's certainly a lot of things that
need to happen and change.
Where can people find you andfollow you?
You have the talk shop blog.
Robert (59:15):
Maya Maya.
My blog is a fire EMS leaderpro all lowercase org.
Okay, they can.
They can also reach me onLinkedIn.
I'm linked in Robert, I havesecond on LinkedIn and Also I've
(59:37):
I've got the on Facebook.
I've got the talking shop Is ais a link page on my Facebook.
Jerry (59:48):
Very good, robert.
Thank you so much for being ongreat conversation.
I'm excited to release thisepisode and get some
thought-provoking you knowthoughts out there, oh.
Robert (01:00:03):
I'm sure we tweaked a few.
Jerry (01:00:05):
Yeah.
Robert (01:00:07):
That's what you write right.
That's what you do, man.
You keep People as peoplefrequently will say, you know
whether it's me, whethersomebody else who's right being
something and they go.
You know what are you thinking?
No, it's not what I wasthinking.
It's what I want you to getthinking about.
(01:00:30):
Okay, I'm not saying I got allthe answers, but I believe I've
got most of the questions.
You know and I think is.
I think it's it's ourobligation, whether it's whether
it's through the written word,whether it's through mediums
like podcast.
It's our obligation as, asthose who have survived right.
Jerry (01:00:55):
Yeah.
Robert (01:00:56):
Now the question, so that today's, today's fire
service leaders say we got tofind the answer to that question
right there.
Jerry (01:01:05):
Right right.
Robert (01:01:07):
That's a great thing we need.
We need to work on how do wekeep our folks connected when
they're out.
Yeah yeah, you know, whetherit's an ankle injury, whether
it's cancer treatment, whetherit's, you know, behavioral
health issue, you know, andwhatever takes a guy or a gal
(01:01:28):
away from the job for any lengthof time A fire department.
I just think you got a moralobligation To take care of them
while they're out there.
Jerry (01:01:39):
I agree, I agree.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on today, robert.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks for taking the time somuch, so much for your 30
minutes.
Robert (01:01:47):
Huh, that's all right.
Jerry (01:01:49):
I was like it was going so good.
I was like Thank you, so Roll,yeah, roll with it.
Yeah, jerry, thank you so muchfor the opportunity.
Robert (01:02:01):
You're most welcome.
I appreciate it.
Ad (01:02:06):
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
If you know someone that wouldbe great on the show, please get
a hold of our hosts, jerry DeanLund, through the Instagram
handles at Jerry fire and fuelor at Enduring the badge podcast
(01:02:26):
, also by visiting the show'swebsite, enduring the badge
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up-to-date information regardingthe show.
Remember the views and opinionsexpressed during the show, so
we represent those of our hostsand the current episodes.
(01:02:49):
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