What if the badge you wear symbolizes more than authority, but a lifetime of wisdom and responsibility? Join us for an engrossing conversation with Pete Furselli, a distinguished law enforcement veteran, as he recounts his 35-year journey from the gritty streets of the Bronx to leading roles in the ATF across North America. Pete shares gripping tales from his career, from handling homicide cases to managing high-profile incidents like the Parkland and Pulse nightclub shootings. Gain invaluable insights into the significance of the badge, the evolution of law enforcement culture, and the critical lessons Pete imparts to new recruits.
Effective leadership is the cornerstone of a successful law enforcement career, and this episode dives deep into what makes a great leader. Drawing from my own experiences, I reveal the importance of truly listening to your team, respecting dissenting opinions, and shunning authoritarian clichés. The conversation takes a compelling turn as we discuss my time as a supervisor in Phoenix, navigating the complex Fast and Furious investigation. We explore the necessity of understanding your team on a personal level to foster collaboration and accountability, ensuring fairness and trust.
Lastly, we confront the emotional and financial ramifications of whistleblowing within the U.S. justice system, featuring a poignant narrative of integrity and resilience. Pete sheds light on the personal sacrifices made when standing up for what is right, including the toll it takes on one’s family. We also reflect on the enduring love for the law enforcement profession despite facing significant adversities and societal challenges. This episode underscores the need for community support and realistic expectations of officers, highlighting the thin line between maintaining and restoring order. Don’t miss this heartfelt discussion that emphasizes the profound commitment required to serve and protect.
As a First Responder, you are critical in keeping our communities safe. However, the stress and trauma of the job can take a toll on your mental health and family life.
If you're interested in personal coaching, contact Jerry Lund at 801-376-7124. Let's work together to get you where you want to be and ensure a happy and healthy career.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jerry (00:02):
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
podcast.
I'm your host, jerry Dean Lund,and if you haven't already done
so, please take out your phoneand hit that subscribe button.
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On whichever platform youlisten to this podcast on, such
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(00:22):
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So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isPete Furselli.
(00:43):
How are you doing, pete Good?
Pete (00:45):
good Thanks for having me Honored to be here.
Jerry (00:47):
Yeah, thank you for being on, Pete.
Can you tell the audience alittle bit about yourself?
Pete (00:51):
Sure, I spent 35 years in law enforcement, started back in
the Bronx in the late 80s 1987to be exact.
Walked the beat Back then copsactually walked the beat Did it
in the projects.
Did it for a couple of yearsactually.
Then eventually made my wayinto a sector car handling, 911
jobs.
About seven years into mycareer made it into the
(01:11):
Detective Bureau.
Spent my last eight years as adetective with the Housing
Authority Police Department andthen the NYPD.
After Giuliani merged the threedepartments together and then
jumped ship in June of 2001.
I became an ATF agent.
Started in New York as a fieldagent, working cases mostly the
same kind of stuff I was doingas a homicide detective in New
York.
You know, just didn't need tobe a gun nexus but you had
(01:37):
plenty of gangs using guns to dobad things during those times.
Went out to Phoenix as a groupsupervisor for five years.
Got thrown out of the state ofArizona for blowing a whistle on
that Fast and Furious mess.
Went to headquarters kind of asa punishment.
Actually Didn't last for longbecause I had some folks who
appreciated that I was honest inmy testimony.
Before Congress Sent up toCanada was a liaison up there
(01:58):
for two years with Canadianpolice on the eastern side of
the country.
An amazing assignment, I mean.
Canadian cops are the salt ofthe earth.
I actually loved working withthem, just good people.
So two years later went down toheadquarters.
I was put in charge of ATF'sleadership and professional
development division, sotraining stuff really outside of
my wheelhouse, outside of mycomfort zone, but I enjoyed the
(02:18):
assignment.
Then I was sent down to Miami.
I was originally the number twodown there, assistant special
agent in charge, then gotpromoted to the special agent in
charge job.
I was down there, unfortunately, for Parkland and the Fort
Lauderdale Airport shooting andI was the assistant special
agent in charge during the Pulsenightclub shooting.
So I had a role in that as well, not the shooting itself
obviously, but the investigation.
(02:40):
And then I spent my last fouryears as the head of training
for ATF, which was great becauseby that time, man, I was like
over 30 years in the profession.
I was kind of beat down and youknow from politics and the
grind and one of my you knowareas was the academy.
So one month, rather one week amonth, I would travel down to
(03:00):
Brunswick, georgia, which iswhere the ATF Academy is, and
spend time with the new hiresand just talk to them.
And I tried not to be thatpompous bureaucrat from
headquarters so I'd really justtry to engage with them and just
seeing that energy like freshfaces coming on, you know, just
really wanting to be good lawenforcement officers, recharge
my batteries, so it was good.
But then, you know, got to apoint where you know, federally
(03:23):
there's a 57 year agerequirement to retire.
I was 55, closing in on 56 andI wanted to go out on my terms.
So I pulled the pin in Octoberof 21 and now just trying to
stay busy being lawenforcement's biggest
cheerleader when they get itright.
And look, I've called them outwhen they get it wrong.
You know.
But look, anybody expecting lawenforcement to be perfect will
(03:45):
always be disappointed, becauseit's a profession staffed by 99%
noble people who are humans.
You know so.
But no, it's good to be retired, but I'm not going to lie and
say I don't miss the job.
Jerry (03:57):
Yeah, yeah, that is quite a career Quite the right spread
across the US and into Canadaand stuff like that and
different positions, and it's alot, a lot there to that we
could unpack.
But I kind of want to like talkto you about something you're
saying like you know, the, theleadership of the new, the new
people coming in, and that, howthat rejuvenated your, your
(04:19):
battery, like what would?
What'd you talk to them about?
Pete (04:23):
Well, a few things actually.
First I want to go down thereyou talk to them about.
Well, a few things actually.
First I want to go down thereand explain to them.
You know I was blessed in mycareer to be taught by guys.
I mean, when I came on as a copI worked with guys that were
around in the Serpico days.
You know they were the oldtimers and you know I didn't
realize what a gift it was to bearound those guys because they
had wisdom to share.
And I'm not trying to say thatI was wise at any point in my
(04:43):
career, but by the time I was incharge of training, you know
I'd learned some things, from mymistakes mostly, but also from
seeing some things that othershad done and just understanding
the culture and how much theculture has changed.
Just to talk to them about theimportance of realizing that the
badge is not something thatrepresents power, it really
represents responsibility.
(05:04):
And it was funny because one ofthe blocks I would always try
to go down there, because it'sthe ATF Academy, it's broken
down into many, many differentblocks of instruction.
The ones that the agents lovedwas the undercover block,
because they get to doundercover pseudo like go out
there, mock, exercise andeverything.
And then, of course, there wasthe tactics block, which is a
couple of weeks long.
Where're going?
(05:24):
You know, doing swap type stuff.
I used to go down during theinterview block.
I wanted them to realize theimportance of interviewing.
If you're going to be a goodcop, you're going to be a good
investigator.
Even if you're a good managerat some point or I hate the term
manager leader you need to knowhow to talk to people and you
know, one of the things I reallyloved about being an
(05:46):
investigator was putting thepuzzle pieces together.
But you know, what I would seeis a lot of folks were really
good on technology or reallygood with some of the other
things, but they weren't alwaysvery good at the human
interaction and I blame that onjust the generation today.
A lot of it's.
You know I grew up playingsports in the street, where you
know you had to learn how totalk to people.
You had to learn how todeescalate situations.
(06:06):
Now I'd see you know youngerfolks today who you know they.
They communicate to the personin the cubicle next to them via
text instead of getting up andwalking over and saying hey,
what are we doing for lunch?
They text each other.
So I would just go down there,you know, explaining the
importance of of relating topeople and building rapport and
interviewing and then, moreimportantly or equally as
(06:27):
important, following up on that.
You know, like if somebodytells you something, don't just
take it at face value.
I notice a lot of investigators.
They get caught up withinformants, with everything the
informant tells them has to belegit.
No man go out there andcorroborate it.
I mean, that's what makes you agood investigator.
But I think you know, talkingto people is just the most
important skill that any cop orany agent can ever have.
(06:50):
And then it needs to transferwith you to leadership positions
, because you need to listen toyour people more importantly
than them even sometimeslistening to you.
You know, it's all aboutserving your folks.
It's not the other way around.
When you're, you know whenyou're a leader.
Jerry (07:09):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, I think you're right.
There is definitely a differentwith these different
generations, right, differentways of communicating and and
that's pros and cons with that.
But, like like you said, I, thefoundation of what even
relationships right Is thecommunication of being able to
communicate, whether it's arelationship of interviewing
someone or leadership, but youhave to be able to communicate.
Not it's a relationship ofinterviewing someone or
leadership, but you have to beable to communicate.
Not just send an email, send atext or whatever.
(07:30):
It's that face-to-faceinteraction.
Pete (07:32):
Yeah, yeah and look the most important thing.
I've learned and this I didn'tknow right away.
It took me years to learn it is.
Listening is more so importantthan talking sometimes.
Whether it's in the interviewroom with a suspect.
You know those uncomfortablemoments of silence are just
golden.
But even you know I see a lot ofleaders and I you know, towards
the end of my career I dealtwith one who, just if you had a
one hour meeting with thisperson, you could expect 57
(07:55):
minutes of him talking at you.
He'd take a phone call and thengive you a minute for you to.
You know, to summarize and thisis instances where you'd have
to bring a problem to hisattention.
You're like what's going onhere?
So I just found it was alwaysbetter to just listen to people.
I mean, that's how you find outwhat's happening, that's how
you find out about morale,that's how you find out how you
can better serve your folks.
What's happening in your fielddivision or in your area of
(08:16):
responsibility?
Or, as a beat comp, you'regoing out there talking to
people.
Just, you know, if you listento them.
Jerry (08:22):
They'll tell you where the problems are.
Pete (08:23):
But if you're constantly talking at them, they just kind
of check out, you know.
Jerry (08:28):
Yeah, why do you think some leaders are like you know,
take that approach of justtalking, talking, talking and
not listening?
Pete (08:35):
I think it could be a mixture of things.
Like the gentleman I wasspeaking about, this is one of
the nicest men I've ever met,but his ego was a bit inflated
and I think his impression ofhimself as a leader was as well.
I just think it depends on theperson.
You know, I found the bestleaders to be the most humble
people.
You know, the ones who led byexample and the ones who kind of
(08:58):
acted as the cushion betweenthe bureaucracy and the madness
and their people.
You know, I mean I try to dothat and look if I succeeded,
because that's the other thing Ialways say about leadership you
don't get to decide whether ornot you were a good leader,
right, and neither really doyour bosses.
Your bosses know they taskedyou with things to do and
whether they were accomplishedor not, they can gauge you on
(09:19):
that.
But the only folks who get avote on whether or not you were
a good leader is the folks youled.
So I just always tried to stealsome of the things that I saw
from the leaders who I look.
I'll say it plainly I love them.
I mean, I worked for somepeople I would have walked
through fire for and I justtried to steal some of the
traits, some of the things thatthey did, sometimes even the
(09:41):
language, the stuff, the waythey addressed certain things.
Sometimes even the language,the stuff, the way they
addressed certain things.
Um, and then I also learned alot from some real assholes.
Um, but you learn what not tobe.
So I also tried to you know,always keep that in mind as well
to not be like those folks, butto be like the really good ones
.
And, um, look, the good oneslistened, the good ones wanted
to hear what you had to say.
The good ones actuallyappreciated and this is
(10:03):
something I love respectfuldissent.
For example, when I was incharge of ATF's Miami office, I
had two ASACs assistant specialagents in charge, both great
guys, both very experienced guys, but we didn't always see
things the same way.
There were times where we wouldreally go at it with discussion
and sometimes the discussionswould get heated, but never like
(10:24):
a personal.
You know what I mean.
And and and I thought that'swhat made us a good team is that
it was never.
Yes, sir, you know, in the endthere were times where I would
disagree with them and look, hey, I'm the sack, I get the final
decision.
This is where we're going to go.
But it was never like fact.
I think that when you use thewords because I said so that is
(10:46):
like you have just failed as aleader, if you throw those words
out, as someone who is justtrying to find out the why.
Because hey, look some people,they're not pushing back on you,
they just want to know why sothey can buy into the mission or
buy into the task.
And so when you're there andyou throw it or you point this
used to kill me you point to thestripes on your sleeve or the
or the collar brass.
(11:07):
This is why, man, that's justepic fail, just bad stuff.
Jerry (11:12):
Yeah, I think that's really hard to recover from as a
leader when you, if you dosomething to that sorts, I mean,
yeah, I mean I think mostleaders well, they should
appreciate those types ofdiscussions but I feel like
often they don't.
They think it's a challenge andtake a personal can take a
personal.
Pete (11:33):
Yeah, well, I think it's insecurity.
I mean, if you're not a secureleader, you're not going to want
to hear somebody push back onyou because you think they're
pushing back on your authorityrather than just wanting to
understand things.
Well, look, I've had somepeople that work for me who were
, you know, boss fighters.
I mean, anything you said tothem, they were going to push
back.
If you handed them a bar ofgold, they would complain that
(11:53):
you didn't wipe yourfingerprints off it.
So I mean, there's that too,but it's just a matter of
knowing your people.
But going back to what westarted with, if you don't
communicate with folks andunderstand them and know what
they're about, what makes themtick, you don't, you can't enter
into those discussionsintelligently because you don't
know.
Like all right, this personjust, no matter what I do,
there's going to be pushback,you know.
Or this person just loves thejob.
(12:15):
You know, some people love thejob, they get caught up in
things, or hey, maybe thisperson's having some stuff going
on at home, right, and I needto keep an eye on him, or he or
she, or help them out.
But if you don't know them, ifyou're not talking to them,
you'll never know those thingsyou know.
The other thing is, if you're amanager, like at a higher level,
trust your managers under you,but also hold them accountable.
And look the most importantthing, this used to drive me
(12:37):
nuts hold yourself accountable.
I'd seen bosses who would barkorders at people and then go out
there and just do things thatyou just actually said.
Are you kidding me, like that'sthe boss and that's how they're
behaving?
Cause I find that the higheryou move up in an organization,
the more eyes are on you.
Jerry (12:52):
Oh, yeah, yeah, and people are watching.
Pete (12:53):
So I mean when you're telling people to behave a
certain way and you're behavinga different way, or you're
allowing your buddies to behavea different way because they're
not in your you know, ratherthan have you know you have an
inner circle.
That's always also a recipe fordisaster.
You gotta be fair to everybody.
Jerry (13:08):
Yeah, yeah, talk about communication and let's get into
the fast and furious story andwhat that's about.
Pete (13:15):
Sure, sure.
Well, I was a brand newsupervisor in Phoenix and I had
come from New York and when Iwas in New York I worked on some
cases that really just wereamazing cases, and not because
I'm special or anything likethat, it's because I had a good
team, good prosecutors, which iscritical to a long-term,
larger-scale investigation.
Because you need things youneed court orders sometimes, you
(13:38):
need subpoenas, you need grandjuries, there's things that you
need.
So I worked on a few big RICOcases.
They all started as, like,low-level gun cases and we would
flip the defendant, go in aninterview room, interview them.
So I mean it all fits into, youknow, the bigger process of
doing investigations.
So it was weird that when I gotout to Phoenix, what I would see
is our agents would do thingsthat agents did all over the
(13:59):
country.
They would pull over cars,right, because we would get tips
frequently from gun dealers,like legitimate licensed gun
stores, saying, hey, somethingsuspicious with this guy who
came in and asked how many AKvariant rifles we have on the
shelves and we'd say to,whatever the number was, I'll
take them all and would handover a bag of cash.
So the dealers would call usand we would roll out there, we
would set up surveillance and wewould watch the transaction
(14:21):
happen and we would follow thecar off because we'd want to do
it in the parking lot and burnthe dealer.
Jerry (14:26):
We would always make up a story.
Pete (14:27):
Hey, we were watching you and we saw you load 13 guns in
the car and that's suspicious.
We would separate folks Again.
What would cops do?
Everywhere, all over thecountry?
Get different stories.
You know court of lies, we knowwhere this is going.
So what I would see in Phoenixis that scenario would unfold
time and time and time again andwe would always be told well,
(14:48):
just, we'll indict it later, letthem go.
So you have these people whoare smuggling guns to firearms
traffickers, who are bringingguns down to the cartels in
Mexico, and it was always kickin the can, let it go, let it go
.
Another example would be we hadone guy who he bought a gun and
transferred it to anotherperson and that gun, within 48
hours, was used to kill.
Well, was used, with other guns, to kill 21 people in a town in
(15:10):
Mexico called Canadaya.
So four of those people whowere killed were cops.
Four other cops were taken intothe desert and beaten and left
for dead.
So I mean a pretty heinouscrime.
We get confessions from thestraw purchaser, the person that
illegally bought the gun forthe other person.
We get a confession from thetrafficker.
Well, we're not going toprosecute that case.
The gun's in Mexico.
(15:31):
So I'd see this unfold time andtime and time again.
So you know, and my group'sinitial tasking for my first
three years in Phoenix wasMexico-bound firearms
trafficking.
So we seized thousands,literally thousands of guns.
Not many people went to prison,which is not really a success
when you think about it, ifyou're a federal agent supposed
to be making federal cases.
Some of the cases we were ableto take to the county, some we
(15:53):
were able to take to the stateattorney general's office, but
the ones we brought to the USattorney's office, like the
federal prosecutors about 90% ofthem they passed on.
So anyway, years later, 2009,because I got down here in 2007.
So in October of 2009, ourgroup's focus was changed.
We were focused on homeinvasions and drug robberies,
(16:15):
because Phoenix led the UnitedStates at that time in home
invasions and kidnappings andthey were second in this
hemisphere behind Mexico City,which is a much, much bigger
city than Phoenix.
So obviously that's notsomething to be proud of.
But I had worked on some homeinvasion cases in New York, so I
was like fine.
So I was kind of excited,different thing to work on
(16:36):
something that I had experiencedon working on in the past and I
was tired of the grind with theUS Attorney's Office but they
kept turning our cases down.
But they so they stood up a newgroup in Phoenix that was
tasked with Mexico-boundfirearms trafficking.
Well, after a while we start tohear at these meetings, these
numbers, like we're on this casewith 600 guns, 900 guns,
different meetings, and I'm like, wow, okay, interesting case.
(16:58):
And I'm thinking that theyfound this historical treasure
trove of documents.
But as the numbers were goingup, it was pretty clear that
that's not the case, because Imean, if they found the
documents, then you know, keepfinding them.
So, anyway, a little while intoit, a Border Patrol agent named
Brian Terry gets killed and allof a sudden this water cooler
talk starts that they werewalking guns and letting them go
(17:20):
.
And then around this time westart getting calls from the
dealers that used to call us,because what happened is, when
we would seize the guns, theywould never have to be traced
because we knew exactly wherethey came from.
Well, the dealers were like,hey man, why, all of a sudden,
with this new group, are wegetting phone calls from ATF
saying the gun was recovered inMexico?
Like with us, nobody went tojail.
(17:40):
But the guns were in our vault.
They weren't used to shoot somecop or some kid or you know
whatever.
So but it was around this timethat an agent named John Dodson,
who was in that group, who knewwhat was going on, contacted
Senator Chuck Grassley's officeand said that ATF was walking
guns.
So now I'm at a subsequentmeeting and the special agent in
(18:01):
charge of the Phoenix fielddivision who was a nice man, I
would argue, very inexperiencedwhen it came to street work he
came in and told us hey, the USattorney's office same US
attorney's office that declinedall of those cases I was talking
about was very upset with JohnDodson for contacting Senator
Grassley's office and don't besurprised if he finds himself
(18:21):
indicted.
I'd stay away from him, or somewords to that effect.
I remember going home thatnight, not very happy obviously,
and talking to my wife andexplaining what happened, all
those cases that were declined.
And now they're talking aboutindicting John who who, candidly
, I didn't even know I don'tknow if I ever even was on the
shooting range with him evernever had a conversation with
(18:45):
him, but again, I didn't thinkit was right.
So we had a discussion.
The very following morning Icalled Senator Grassley's office
and said hey, listen, I spoketo a guy named Brian Downey who
was one of his staffers.
I said, brian, I know you'rebeing told that by Eric Holder
and by ATF and the Department ofJustice that ATF doesn't walk
guns and that John Knott's is aliar.
I'm just letting you know he'snot lying and if you give me a
subpoena, I'll tell youeverything you want to know
(19:07):
about what's been happening inPhoenix over the past couple of
years.
And lo and behold, a couple ofweeks later I get a phone call.
I'm sitting at my desk and itwas another gentleman from
Congress, a staffer named ColtonDavis, and he's like Mr
Friselli, we have a subpoenahere for you.
You can either come downstairsto the hotel across the street,
(19:28):
which was a Hyatt, from ouroffice, we can come up to the
ninth floor and serve you there,or we can come out to your
house and serve you there.
I was like, hey, I'll be rightdown and took possession of the
subpoena.
And that's kind of where thejourney began, as far as you
know, blowing the whistle andspeaking about what happened
there and you know, and then theretaliation that followed.
It all began with, you knowthem talking about indicting
(19:51):
John when for years they weren'tindicting criminals.
Jerry (19:57):
Why was the sudden switch ?
Pete (20:00):
That you know.
That's something I never foundout.
Why was it for years?
Once the gun made its way toMexico, we were told they
couldn't prosecute because thecorpus delecti, the body of the
crime, was in Mexico.
I mean, this was many, many,many defendants, mind you.
Now, all of a sudden, thestrategy is to let the guns go
to Mexico.
So I mean, we were never toldwhy that would happen.
There were rumblings that one ofthe things that they were
(20:21):
looking to do was to implementthis thing called Demand Letter
3.
And this, when I say they,that's not Phoenix, I mean this
was people in the Department ofJustice.
The way it works is and I don'tknow if your listeners might
know if you go into a gun storeand you buy two pistols, you
have to fill out a multiple saleform, right, so you can buy a
pistol and that form is notfilled up.
(20:42):
If you go in and buy a bunch ofrifles, like those people were
doing who were coming up fromMexico, you also didn't have to
fill out a multiple sale form.
It only applied to two pistols.
So while Fast and Furious wasgoing on, the brass was kind of
gleeful in this idea, like, hey,we can implement this multiple
sale form for rifles now, andthey in fact did as a result of
(21:04):
Fast and Furious, where now it'snot a national thing, but if
you buy more than one rifle in aborder state so Texas, new
Mexico, arizona, california youhave to fill out this form now,
which is kind of sickening ifyou think about it, because,
look, a lot of people in Mexicowere killed with guns that were
smuggled during Fast and Furious.
Helicopters were downed withrifles, .50 caliber rifles that
(21:26):
were smuggled as part of Fastand
Furious.
And Brian Terry, who was aBorder Patrol agent with BORTAC,
which is like the elite of theelite of the Border Patrol,
right, you think about Uvalde,that school shooting standoff,
right, if you remember, whilethe cops were standing there not
you know kind of deciding aplan, a border patrol BORTAC guy
(21:47):
blasted past them, went in andended the threat, right, these
guys are like the high-speedelite SWAT guys.
I'd put them up against FBI'sHRT, and Brian was one of those
guys.
And here he's killed in thedesert, you know.
So the government neverexplained to the family as to
why or what, but if it was toimplement this demand letter
three, I can't think of anythingmore appalling.
But again, I mean, he's dead.
(22:08):
The family wasn't told what wasgoing on and the US attorney's
office was thinking of indictingJohn Dodson
perhaps.
And I was like this is just abridge too far for me as a
leader.
There's no way I could staythere and just keep my mouth
shut about it.
And then the other thing is andit really weighed on me is I
watched my agents do everythingthe right way Stop cars, ask
(22:30):
questions, gather evidence andalways be told no.
So I was like I had a prettygood run in New York and it was
because of those partnerships.
I watched my agents do whatthey were supposed to do and
realized they'll never reachtheir full potential, not
because of them, but because ofthe prosecutors.
So I mean there were so manythings that weighed into why it
(22:51):
was the right thing to do.
But yeah, I did.
It Turned into like a four-yearordeal afterwards to clear my
name, because US attorneysalways didn't like the
allegations being levied at them.
So you know, obviously theyturned around and made some
counterclaims, all of whichproved to be untrue, but it took
four years to do it.
Jerry (23:10):
Yeah, how did that weigh on you and your family during
those four years.
That had to be rough.
Pete (23:16):
Oh, it was rough.
And you bring up the importantthing.
It's like is like, look, Iraised my hand and took an oath
and I mean I never expected togo through something like that,
nor would I want to ever again.
But my family didn't.
So I mean, you know, I movedthem from the northeast, they
came with me to arizona.
So they know we didn't havefamily in phoenix and we were
alone out there and they hadarrived that storm.
So I mean I wound up gettingsurveilled where you know there
(23:37):
were times we'd go to dinner andthere were people like and not
covert surveillance, I mean likeovert, like hey, man, we're
watching you kind ofsurveillance which was really
unnerving for two kids who werelike one was high school age,
the other one was about to enterhigh school age.
So I mean that was that wasrough.
And then you know, the otherthing is, because you're being
surveilled, my lawyer was on theon the East Coast.
(24:01):
I'm in Phoenix, I know how thegovernment works.
So I wasn't going tocommunicate with the lawyer by
email or by phone.
So traveling back and forth tosee the attorney got real
expensive.
So we almost frankly werebankrupted by the whole ordeal.
But in the end, again, I wasable to exonerate myself.
But I mean there was a pointwhere in that four-year period,
(24:21):
on six different occasions, whenthe US Attorney's Office would
make allegations that– theycouldn't prove, but it was like
kind of he said, you know, hesaid, he said, or whatever I
would, I would say hey look, ifyou don't believe me, put me on
a polygraph.
To the inspector general'soffice, which, as a federal
agent, is risky Cause if youfail a polygraph they're pulling
your security clearance.
And I happen to know enough toknow that the polygraph is not
(24:42):
the most reliable device.
But I just I was so backed intothe corner that I didn't know
what else, frankly, to do.
Jerry (24:48):
And I would have taken it , but each time I would say hey
put me on the box, theirresponse would be no.
Pete (24:52):
No, that's not necessary.
We haven't gotten there yet, MrFriselli, but it made for a
difficult four years, to say theleast.
Jerry (25:00):
Yeah, I bet that would put a strain on your family
dynamics, your relationship withyour wife probably never
feeling comfortable.
If you're being watched all thetime like that, that's got to
be very, very unnerving for them.
Like you said, because theydidn't sign up for that right, I
can't, did you?
I'm assuming you discussed thiswith your wife before you said,
(25:21):
hey, I'm going to do this andthis is what could possibly
happen well.
Pete (25:25):
Actually, when I went home and told her what they were
doing to john and then I wascontemplating reaching out to
grassley's office her responsewas my wife's no joke man.
My wife grew up in the Bronx.
She's a tough cookie.
She's like hey, if you don't,you're not the man I married.
My family always expected me todo the right thing and the
amazing thing was, through thisall, she stayed by my side and
(25:45):
my kids were also verysupportive.
But it wasn't easy for that manLike we I wound up having a porn
jewelry to make the mortgagepayment.
Like I had watches I hadcollected as a detective that I
just I was, you know, I meanprized possessions.
They were gone.
My grandfather's rifle that heleft me when he passed gone had
a pawn that we got to the pointwhere we were holding yard sales
in the driveway where you knowI used to love to work with my
(26:07):
hands.
When you buy a drill for like$150 and you're trying to sell
it for 50 because you got tomake a mortgage payment and the
guy standing there trying tobargain you down from 50 to 15,
it's incredibly humbling and itsucked.
I mean I don't know how else tosay it.
But I think seeing that in aweird way gave my kids and my
(26:28):
wife a resilience that theywouldn't have had otherwise.
So I mean, look, I think as afamily we learned a lot from it.
But look, if my kids becausethey're both in law enforcement
now if they came up to me andsaid hey, should I blow the
whistle on this or that, I'm notgoing to lie and say absolutely
, I would probably try to talkthem out of it.
Because the weirdest thing is Istill speak to people in
(26:51):
Phoenix and the US Attorney'sOffice there hasn't gotten any
better.
So the same stuff that I blewthe whistle on may not be going
on to the same extent.
And obviously no more BorderPatrol agents have been killed,
but they're not doing their jobany better now than they were
then.
So I mean, in some ways it'skind of sad that a lot of it was
all for nothing.
Jerry (27:10):
Yeah, that's extremely sad because that is a really
rough thing to go through, yeah,and then not make any change.
It sucked, yeah, yeah, I'vejust sometimes I hear these type
of stories, you know, fromguests.
I'm like I'm trying to likeimagine, you know, I'm sitting
here in my office and I'mlooking outside and thinking,
(27:31):
you know, like, wow, you know,holding a garage still to to
make my mortgage payment, likewhat would that look like?
Like, how would I, how would Ifeel, how would my family feel?
Like what you know.
And then the other thing is asmuch as we would hate to say is
like what are other peoplethinking about me?
Pete (27:47):
You know it's funny because in the beginning I think
some people thought, like youknow, because, look, nobody
believed.
This is the weird thing whenJohn Dodson blew the whistle on
people walking guns, nobodybelieved John.
Right, we didn't believe John.
We weren't in that group.
They were doing things in thatgroup that just went against the
grain of everything we do.
So, you know, once I found outit was happening, I stepped
forward as well.
(28:08):
But there were people in otherparts of the country within ATF
and certainly the people outsideof ATF.
When other law enforcemententities heard that guns were
being walked, they were likewhat are you people crazy?
But I mean that same dynamicapplied to people from within.
ATF in, like Chicago orAlbuquerque or wherever.
So I mean, at first they didn'tknow what to take of me.
Like is pete an asshole?
(28:29):
Is he a liar?
Him and john like malcontents.
So they didn't know.
And then even within management, like some of the management
wanted to cut my head off.
But the nice thing was thatthere was somebody like the
whole management team in phoenixgot wiped out and I think this
is important to bring up.
So what happened was when theybrought in a new management team
it was around the same time Igot subpoenaed.
So so when I got subpoenaed, Ihad to notify my chain of
(28:50):
command, the new chain ofcommand.
Hey, I got subpoenaed and thenew head of the ATF office in
Phoenix was a guy named TomBrandon who had transferred in
from Detroit again to right theship.
So imagine, you just crashedinto the Titanic and they bring
in some poor guy to hey, here'sthe steering wheel, now you take
it from here.
But Now you take it from here.
But when I told him I gotsubpoenaed, tom literally
(29:10):
reached into his pocket and hehanded me a challenge coin.
He was a very religious guy,catholic guy he handed me.
So I'm Catholic but I'm not asreligious.
So when he handed me thischallenge coin it was a St
Michael challenge coin, which isthe patron saint of cops and
soldiers and whatnot and he saidPete, as long as you're telling
the truth, I have your back.
And for those four years whereI was getting my head kicked in,
(29:31):
tom I mean he couldn't reallyfight for me because he didn't
see what I saw, but he, unlike alot of other managers, gave me
the latitude to fight for myself.
And when I was in someparticular battles with whether
it was the deputy attorneygeneral or the ATF director or
certainly the US attorneyhimself presidentially appointed
US attorney in Phoenix he gaveme the room to fight my battles
(29:54):
without telling me, hey, pipedown, or hey, you need to shut
up.
So I mean, you know, that'sthat.
And I think once people saw, asTom moved up in the organization
, that Tom trusted me, thenfolks began to say, hey, maybe
he's not such a bad guy.
And then, as time went on and Igot to actually talk to some of
those folks, then they realizedthat, hey, I did this for the
(30:16):
right reasons.
I didn't do this because I wastrying to make a name for myself
.
I didn't.
I mean I wrote the book.
Now that I'm retired I couldhave done some of these things
way, way back in the day.
I didn't think it was rightbecause you know it just would
rock the boat a little bit.
But also I didn't think itwould have been right that Brian
Terry was his family.
Never was told, even to thisday, really, what happened.
But I mean I felt like he justpassed like to write a book and
(30:36):
profit from that would have beenin bad taste.
But now, knowing what I knowabout how the Phoenix US
Attorney's Office hasn't gottenany better and the lawyers there
were never held accountable,I'm like you know what.
It's time to tell the story.
Jerry (30:56):
And that's why here, 10 years plus later, I decided to
write the book.
Pete (30:59):
Yeah, did you ever want to give up during this process?
You know, I I was a cop.
I mean at heart, like not, andnot when I say a cop I mean like
a cop, like the same kid thatwalked the beat, like I.
Just I love this profession.
So did I want to give up?
No, and I don't have anotherskill.
I mean I studied carpentry fora while and I sucked at it.
(31:20):
So I mean I don't know whatelse I would have did to make a
living, but I truly love theprofession.
Going back 35 years in theprofession four years of hell
still didn't turn me against theprofession or even ATF.
I love ATF and a lot ofpositive change came out of the
whistleblowing from within ATFDidn't really happen throughout
the Department of Justice, wherethere could have been some
(31:41):
reflection and some improvements.
They just kind of circled thewagons.
So I mean some positive changesdid come out of it, I think.
But yeah, I mean maybe I'mstupid, but I just never thought
, hey, man, let me pack it inand go, because I don't know
where I, where I would have gone, if that makes any sense.
Jerry (31:57):
It makes complete sense to me.
I mean, it's really difficult,I think to for one like you're
talking about skills, right,this is your skill set, this is
what you've done.
This is what you know.
This is what you've done.
This is what you know.
This is you know.
And then to be like walk awayfrom something you know that you
loved, even though it's reallyhard to do something different,
you know it, doesn't it?
(32:20):
Probably being a carpenter,even if you were good at it, may
not have been fulfilling likebeing a law enforcement officer,
was.
Pete (32:26):
Oh and look, the reality is too, and we talked about this
.
You know, I look at what'sgoing on in the world today, in
the United States, where lawenforcement has been demonized
and there are certain people youknow that want to defund and
all that stuff.
And you know people will takesomething that happens in a
split second and analyze it forhours, weeks, months, years and
then turn it around and demonizethe cop.
(32:46):
That's not the profession thatI knew and loved.
I mean, some of the finestpeople I worked with in my life
were cops and then, like youknow, I had a very good career
and I was blessed.
But I had a good career becauseI worked with good people.
Like you know, none of thestuff that I accomplished that I
accomplished on my own.
I had good leaders.
I had some bad ones.
(33:06):
Again, we learned from both.
I worked with some great cops.
I worked with some lazy what's.
You learn from them too.
But the reality is, I think,when law enforcement is a noble
profession, that's in a badplace right now and I think just
I loved it.
So I mean, that's why I'm stillkind of like advocating for law
enforcement in my retirement,because I just think it's
(33:27):
important for us as a family, alaw enforcement family, to stick
together, and that's what madeit hard for me to think about
even leaving it at any point,whether it was back then because
I was going to be forced out,or even when I retired back in
2021.
It's a profession that I reallythink is just so vitally
important, but I know that wealso have a duty to try to get
(33:49):
right.
But the public, I think, has aduty to understand when we, when
we mess up, if it's an honestmistake, and not demonize the
person that makes the mistake,or to demonize an entire
profession because of the actsof a few bad apples.
You know, I mean, they don't doit to doctors, they don't do it
to lawyers, and let me tell you, there are plenty of bad
lawyers out there.
So it's just to me, it's just,you know, I don't know.
(34:10):
I look, I was blessed to bepart of it for so long.
Jerry (34:13):
Yeah, I think they do like to go after law enforcement
.
It's just they feel like it's a, it's an easy target right now.
Yeah, unfortunately, you knowjust, uh, it's just bad, like
it's just, and you know, noteverybody's perfect.
I think they expect theseofficers you know everybody's
perfect.
I think they expect theseofficers, you know, to make
perfect decisions in fractionsof of seconds.
(34:34):
You know, and it's just like,yeah, mistakes happen and you
know some of them are really badmistakes and but right, just a
few bad apples, you know peoplejust could understand.
The rest are really workingreally hard to to keep you safe
and do the right thing.
Sure.
Pete (34:51):
Well, I mean, look, here's the other thing too.
Maintaining order isn't alwayspretty right.
Necessary force, they call it.
It's the minimal amount offorce necessary On a body camera
sometimes, that minimal amountof force, especially on
somebody's cell phone camerawhich they get cleverly edited.
But I mean, those things can beugly, right and, as I'm saying,
even when it's perfect, evenwhen it's executed within the
(35:13):
law and perfectly, it's notpretty.
But these people who weredemonizing the cops who use
force when they have to toprotect their life or the life
of another, right.
So now you have cops who areafraid to use force and the
pendulum has swung where somecities have gotten a little bit
out of control.
What these politicians andothers who advocate against cops
forget is, at some pointthere's going to be a need to
(35:35):
restore order, and restoringorder is a lot more violent and
a lot uglier than maintainingorder.
So I mean, I just wish that hewould have thought things
through before they started onthis demonization thing, Because
you know, look, I don't thinkcops go out there wanting to
hurt anybody, right or they'reone or two idiots?
yeah, sure, um I.
(35:56):
But look, and we, we know thisbecause we were in this
profession.
Plenty of cops go home injuredevery day, you know, and
sometimes injured because theywent that extra mile to not hurt
the suspect right, right, rightso yeah, it's crazy agree, you
know p.
Jerry (36:12):
Before I let you go, let's talk just a little bit
more briefly about your book.
Like, what will people get fromyour book, the Fast?
And we're talking about theFast and Furious, Sure.
Well, the book's called.
Pete (36:22):
The Deadly Path, how Operation Fast and Furious and
Bad Lawyers Armed MexicanCartels.
And what they'll hear is thereal story, because if you
watched the news back then youeither heard the Democrat
version or the Republicanversion of events, because the
news media was like now was abit polarized.
So the Democrat version wasthis started under George Bush.
The Republican version wasBarack Obama created this.
(36:44):
You know, you'll see, thisstarted in Phoenix.
It was a boots on the groundthing that spun out of control
because people abandoned thebasic tenets of policing and
leadership failed andprosecutors failed to do what
prosecutors are supposed to do.
So it's just the real, you know, unbiased story, firsthand
account of what happened here.
And look, there were thingsthat rumbled around that I
(37:07):
didn't see.
I don't speculate, I only putin the book what I personally
witnessed and saw, and you'llsee the body count was growing
in Mexico long before Fast andFurious even began because the
prosecutors weren't doing theirjobs.
And then folks will see whathappens when you speak truth to
power and how the governmentdoesn't exactly like to hear
someone call their baby ugly,even when the baby's hideous.
Jerry (37:31):
Yeah, oh yeah, right, I totally agree with that, Pete.
Where can people find the bookand see what you're doing with
it?
Pete (37:39):
Sure, the book's available on Amazon and at all the major
bookstores like Barnes, nobleBooks, a Million, whatnot.
I have a website where ifsomebody wants to get a signed
copy, it's easy.
It's wwwpeterjforsellicom.
But yeah, it's out there now.
It's been on the shelves sinceMarch 5th and if folks decide to
(38:00):
buy it, I'd be appreciative forthe support and if they feel
it's a good book.
Word of mouth helps sell books.
Man, when you're not StephenKing or James Patterson, you
need all the help you can get.
Jerry (38:15):
Yeah, man, when you're, when you're not stephen king or
james patterson, you need allthe help you can get.
Yeah, as we were talking aboutthis before we started recording
, this is not an easy thing todo to to write a story like this
, it takes a lot of work, a lotof time, extreme amount of
dedication and a lot offinancial backing right or of
your own personal backing to dothis.
Pete (38:34):
Oh, yeah, and you hope to break even, um, frankly, but
yeah, it's, it's.
It was something else and, look, I gotta give credit, I wrote
it.
It was originally twice as longas it is now and I brought in a
young lady named KeelanMcGregor they call her Kate
McGregor to edit it and make itmore manageable read, so it
didn't read like a really,really really long police report
and she did a great job as faras just making it, you know,
(38:56):
more like a book that folkswould rather read instead of
this lengthy OIG report orsomething like that.
So, I'm going to give her creditwhere it's due, you know.
Jerry (39:04):
Yeah, totally Pete.
Thank you so much for being ontoday.
I really appreciate it.
Pete (39:09):
Honored to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Jerry (39:10):
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
If you know someone that wouldbe great on the show, please get
a hold of our host, jerry DeanLund, through the Instagram
handles at JerryFireAndFuel orat End the badge podcast.
(39:33):
Also by visiting the show'swebsite, enduring the badge
podcastcom, for additionalmethods of contact and
up-to-date information regardingthe show.
Remember, the views andopinions expressed during the
show solely represent those ofour host and the current
(39:54):
episode's guests.
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
podcast.
I'm your host, jerry Dean Lund,and if you haven't already done
so, please take out your phoneand hit that subscribe button.
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And, hey, while your phone'sout, please give us a rating and
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(00:22):
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So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isPete Furselli.
(00:43):
How are you doing, pete Good?
Pete (00:45):
good Thanks for having me Honored to be here.
Jerry (00:47):
Yeah, thank you for being on, Pete.
Can you tell the audience alittle bit about yourself?
Pete (00:51):
Sure, I spent 35 years in law enforcement, started back in
the Bronx in the late 80s 1987to be exact.
Walked the beat Back then copsactually walked the beat Did it
in the projects.
Did it for a couple of yearsactually.
Then eventually made my wayinto a sector car handling, 911
jobs.
About seven years into mycareer made it into the
(01:11):
Detective Bureau.
Spent my last eight years as adetective with the Housing
Authority Police Department andthen the NYPD.
After Giuliani merged the threedepartments together and then
jumped ship in June of 2001.
I became an ATF agent.
Started in New York as a fieldagent, working cases mostly the
same kind of stuff I was doingas a homicide detective in New
York.
You know, just didn't need tobe a gun nexus but you had
(01:37):
plenty of gangs using guns to dobad things during those times.
Went out to Phoenix as a groupsupervisor for five years.
Got thrown out of the state ofArizona for blowing a whistle on
that Fast and Furious mess.
Went to headquarters kind of asa punishment.
Actually Didn't last for longbecause I had some folks who
appreciated that I was honest inmy testimony.
Before Congress Sent up toCanada was a liaison up there
(01:58):
for two years with Canadianpolice on the eastern side of
the country.
An amazing assignment, I mean.
Canadian cops are the salt ofthe earth.
I actually loved working withthem, just good people.
So two years later went down toheadquarters.
I was put in charge of ATF'sleadership and professional
development division, sotraining stuff really outside of
my wheelhouse, outside of mycomfort zone, but I enjoyed the
(02:18):
assignment.
Then I was sent down to Miami.
I was originally the number twodown there, assistant special
agent in charge, then gotpromoted to the special agent in
charge job.
I was down there, unfortunately, for Parkland and the Fort
Lauderdale Airport shooting andI was the assistant special
agent in charge during the Pulsenightclub shooting.
So I had a role in that as well, not the shooting itself
obviously, but the investigation.
(02:40):
And then I spent my last fouryears as the head of training
for ATF, which was great becauseby that time, man, I was like
over 30 years in the profession.
I was kind of beat down and youknow from politics and the
grind and one of my you knowareas was the academy.
So one month, rather one week amonth, I would travel down to
(03:00):
Brunswick, georgia, which iswhere the ATF Academy is, and
spend time with the new hiresand just talk to them.
And I tried not to be thatpompous bureaucrat from
headquarters so I'd really justtry to engage with them and just
seeing that energy like freshfaces coming on, you know, just
really wanting to be good lawenforcement officers, recharge
my batteries, so it was good.
But then, you know, got to apoint where you know, federally
(03:23):
there's a 57 year agerequirement to retire.
I was 55, closing in on 56 andI wanted to go out on my terms.
So I pulled the pin in Octoberof 21 and now just trying to
stay busy being lawenforcement's biggest
cheerleader when they get itright.
And look, I've called them outwhen they get it wrong.
You know.
But look, anybody expecting lawenforcement to be perfect will
(03:45):
always be disappointed, becauseit's a profession staffed by 99%
noble people who are humans.
You know so.
But no, it's good to be retired, but I'm not going to lie and
say I don't miss the job.
Jerry (03:57):
Yeah, yeah, that is quite a career Quite the right spread
across the US and into Canadaand stuff like that and
different positions, and it's alot, a lot there to that we
could unpack.
But I kind of want to like talkto you about something you're
saying like you know, the, theleadership of the new, the new
people coming in, and that, howthat rejuvenated your, your
(04:19):
battery, like what would?
What'd you talk to them about?
Pete (04:23):
Well, a few things actually.
First I want to go down thereyou talk to them about.
Well, a few things actually.
First I want to go down thereand explain to them.
You know I was blessed in mycareer to be taught by guys.
I mean, when I came on as a copI worked with guys that were
around in the Serpico days.
You know they were the oldtimers and you know I didn't
realize what a gift it was to bearound those guys because they
had wisdom to share.
And I'm not trying to say thatI was wise at any point in my
(04:43):
career, but by the time I was incharge of training, you know
I'd learned some things, from mymistakes mostly, but also from
seeing some things that othershad done and just understanding
the culture and how much theculture has changed.
Just to talk to them about theimportance of realizing that the
badge is not something thatrepresents power, it really
represents responsibility.
(05:04):
And it was funny because one ofthe blocks I would always try
to go down there, because it'sthe ATF Academy, it's broken
down into many, many differentblocks of instruction.
The ones that the agents lovedwas the undercover block,
because they get to doundercover pseudo like go out
there, mock, exercise andeverything.
And then, of course, there wasthe tactics block, which is a
couple of weeks long.
Where're going?
(05:24):
You know, doing swap type stuff.
I used to go down during theinterview block.
I wanted them to realize theimportance of interviewing.
If you're going to be a goodcop, you're going to be a good
investigator.
Even if you're a good managerat some point or I hate the term
manager leader you need to knowhow to talk to people and you
know, one of the things I reallyloved about being an
(05:46):
investigator was putting thepuzzle pieces together.
But you know, what I would seeis a lot of folks were really
good on technology or reallygood with some of the other
things, but they weren't alwaysvery good at the human
interaction and I blame that onjust the generation today.
A lot of it's.
You know I grew up playingsports in the street, where you
know you had to learn how totalk to people.
You had to learn how todeescalate situations.
(06:06):
Now I'd see you know youngerfolks today who you know they.
They communicate to the personin the cubicle next to them via
text instead of getting up andwalking over and saying hey,
what are we doing for lunch?
They text each other.
So I would just go down there,you know, explaining the
importance of of relating topeople and building rapport and
interviewing and then, moreimportantly or equally as
(06:27):
important, following up on that.
You know, like if somebodytells you something, don't just
take it at face value.
I notice a lot of investigators.
They get caught up withinformants, with everything the
informant tells them has to belegit.
No man go out there andcorroborate it.
I mean, that's what makes you agood investigator.
But I think you know, talkingto people is just the most
important skill that any cop orany agent can ever have.
(06:50):
And then it needs to transferwith you to leadership positions
, because you need to listen toyour people more importantly
than them even sometimeslistening to you.
You know, it's all aboutserving your folks.
It's not the other way around.
When you're, you know whenyou're a leader.
Jerry (07:09):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, I think you're right.
There is definitely a differentwith these different
generations, right, differentways of communicating and and
that's pros and cons with that.
But, like like you said, I, thefoundation of what even
relationships right Is thecommunication of being able to
communicate, whether it's arelationship of interviewing
someone or leadership, but youhave to be able to communicate.
Not it's a relationship ofinterviewing someone or
leadership, but you have to beable to communicate.
Not just send an email, send atext or whatever.
(07:30):
It's that face-to-faceinteraction.
Pete (07:32):
Yeah, yeah and look the most important thing.
I've learned and this I didn'tknow right away.
It took me years to learn it is.
Listening is more so importantthan talking sometimes.
Whether it's in the interviewroom with a suspect.
You know those uncomfortablemoments of silence are just
golden.
But even you know I see a lot ofleaders and I you know, towards
the end of my career I dealtwith one who, just if you had a
one hour meeting with thisperson, you could expect 57
(07:55):
minutes of him talking at you.
He'd take a phone call and thengive you a minute for you to.
You know, to summarize and thisis instances where you'd have
to bring a problem to hisattention.
You're like what's going onhere?
So I just found it was alwaysbetter to just listen to people.
I mean, that's how you find outwhat's happening, that's how
you find out about morale,that's how you find out how you
can better serve your folks.
What's happening in your fielddivision or in your area of
(08:16):
responsibility?
Or, as a beat comp, you'regoing out there talking to
people.
Just, you know, if you listento them.
Jerry (08:22):
They'll tell you where the problems are.
Pete (08:23):
But if you're constantly talking at them, they just kind
of check out, you know.
Jerry (08:28):
Yeah, why do you think some leaders are like you know,
take that approach of justtalking, talking, talking and
not listening?
Pete (08:35):
I think it could be a mixture of things.
Like the gentleman I wasspeaking about, this is one of
the nicest men I've ever met,but his ego was a bit inflated
and I think his impression ofhimself as a leader was as well.
I just think it depends on theperson.
You know, I found the bestleaders to be the most humble
people.
You know, the ones who led byexample and the ones who kind of
(08:58):
acted as the cushion betweenthe bureaucracy and the madness
and their people.
You know, I mean I try to dothat and look if I succeeded,
because that's the other thing Ialways say about leadership you
don't get to decide whether ornot you were a good leader,
right, and neither really doyour bosses.
Your bosses know they taskedyou with things to do and
whether they were accomplishedor not, they can gauge you on
(09:19):
that.
But the only folks who get avote on whether or not you were
a good leader is the folks youled.
So I just always tried to stealsome of the things that I saw
from the leaders who I look.
I'll say it plainly I love them.
I mean, I worked for somepeople I would have walked
through fire for and I justtried to steal some of the
traits, some of the things thatthey did, sometimes even the
(09:41):
language, the stuff, the waythey addressed certain things.
Sometimes even the language,the stuff, the way they
addressed certain things.
Um, and then I also learned alot from some real assholes.
Um, but you learn what not tobe.
So I also tried to you know,always keep that in mind as well
to not be like those folks, butto be like the really good ones
.
And, um, look, the good oneslistened, the good ones wanted
to hear what you had to say.
The good ones actuallyappreciated and this is
(10:03):
something I love respectfuldissent.
For example, when I was incharge of ATF's Miami office, I
had two ASACs assistant specialagents in charge, both great
guys, both very experienced guys, but we didn't always see
things the same way.
There were times where we wouldreally go at it with discussion
and sometimes the discussionswould get heated, but never like
(10:24):
a personal.
You know what I mean.
And and and I thought that'swhat made us a good team is that
it was never.
Yes, sir, you know, in the endthere were times where I would
disagree with them and look, hey, I'm the sack, I get the final
decision.
This is where we're going to go.
But it was never like fact.
I think that when you use thewords because I said so that is
(10:46):
like you have just failed as aleader, if you throw those words
out, as someone who is justtrying to find out the why.
Because hey, look some people,they're not pushing back on you,
they just want to know why sothey can buy into the mission or
buy into the task.
And so when you're there andyou throw it or you point this
used to kill me you point to thestripes on your sleeve or the
or the collar brass.
(11:07):
This is why, man, that's justepic fail, just bad stuff.
Jerry (11:12):
Yeah, I think that's really hard to recover from as a
leader when you, if you dosomething to that sorts, I mean,
yeah, I mean I think mostleaders well, they should
appreciate those types ofdiscussions but I feel like
often they don't.
They think it's a challenge andtake a personal can take a
personal.
Pete (11:33):
Yeah, well, I think it's insecurity.
I mean, if you're not a secureleader, you're not going to want
to hear somebody push back onyou because you think they're
pushing back on your authorityrather than just wanting to
understand things.
Well, look, I've had somepeople that work for me who were
, you know, boss fighters.
I mean, anything you said tothem, they were going to push
back.
If you handed them a bar ofgold, they would complain that
(11:53):
you didn't wipe yourfingerprints off it.
So I mean, there's that too,but it's just a matter of
knowing your people.
But going back to what westarted with, if you don't
communicate with folks andunderstand them and know what
they're about, what makes themtick, you don't, you can't enter
into those discussionsintelligently because you don't
know.
Like all right, this personjust, no matter what I do,
there's going to be pushback,you know.
Or this person just loves thejob.
(12:15):
You know, some people love thejob, they get caught up in
things, or hey, maybe thisperson's having some stuff going
on at home, right, and I needto keep an eye on him, or he or
she, or help them out.
But if you don't know them, ifyou're not talking to them,
you'll never know those thingsyou know.
The other thing is, if you're amanager, like at a higher level,
trust your managers under you,but also hold them accountable.
And look the most importantthing, this used to drive me
(12:37):
nuts hold yourself accountable.
I'd seen bosses who would barkorders at people and then go out
there and just do things thatyou just actually said.
Are you kidding me, like that'sthe boss and that's how they're
behaving?
Cause I find that the higheryou move up in an organization,
the more eyes are on you.
Jerry (12:52):
Oh, yeah, yeah, and people are watching.
Pete (12:53):
So I mean when you're telling people to behave a
certain way and you're behavinga different way, or you're
allowing your buddies to behavea different way because they're
not in your you know, ratherthan have you know you have an
inner circle.
That's always also a recipe fordisaster.
You gotta be fair to everybody.
Jerry (13:08):
Yeah, yeah, talk about communication and let's get into
the fast and furious story andwhat that's about.
Pete (13:15):
Sure, sure.
Well, I was a brand newsupervisor in Phoenix and I had
come from New York and when Iwas in New York I worked on some
cases that really just wereamazing cases, and not because
I'm special or anything likethat, it's because I had a good
team, good prosecutors, which iscritical to a long-term,
larger-scale investigation.
Because you need things youneed court orders sometimes, you
(13:38):
need subpoenas, you need grandjuries, there's things that you
need.
So I worked on a few big RICOcases.
They all started as, like,low-level gun cases and we would
flip the defendant, go in aninterview room, interview them.
So I mean it all fits into, youknow, the bigger process of
doing investigations.
So it was weird that when I gotout to Phoenix, what I would see
is our agents would do thingsthat agents did all over the
(13:59):
country.
They would pull over cars,right, because we would get tips
frequently from gun dealers,like legitimate licensed gun
stores, saying, hey, somethingsuspicious with this guy who
came in and asked how many AKvariant rifles we have on the
shelves and we'd say to,whatever the number was, I'll
take them all and would handover a bag of cash.
So the dealers would call usand we would roll out there, we
would set up surveillance and wewould watch the transaction
(14:21):
happen and we would follow thecar off because we'd want to do
it in the parking lot and burnthe dealer.
Jerry (14:26):
We would always make up a story.
Pete (14:27):
Hey, we were watching you and we saw you load 13 guns in
the car and that's suspicious.
We would separate folks Again.
What would cops do?
Everywhere, all over thecountry?
Get different stories.
You know court of lies, we knowwhere this is going.
So what I would see in Phoenixis that scenario would unfold
time and time and time again andwe would always be told well,
(14:48):
just, we'll indict it later, letthem go.
So you have these people whoare smuggling guns to firearms
traffickers, who are bringingguns down to the cartels in
Mexico, and it was always kickin the can, let it go, let it go
.
Another example would be we hadone guy who he bought a gun and
transferred it to anotherperson and that gun, within 48
hours, was used to kill.
Well, was used, with other guns, to kill 21 people in a town in
(15:10):
Mexico called Canadaya.
So four of those people whowere killed were cops.
Four other cops were taken intothe desert and beaten and left
for dead.
So I mean a pretty heinouscrime.
We get confessions from thestraw purchaser, the person that
illegally bought the gun forthe other person.
We get a confession from thetrafficker.
Well, we're not going toprosecute that case.
The gun's in Mexico.
(15:31):
So I'd see this unfold time andtime and time again.
So you know, and my group'sinitial tasking for my first
three years in Phoenix wasMexico-bound firearms
trafficking.
So we seized thousands,literally thousands of guns.
Not many people went to prison,which is not really a success
when you think about it, ifyou're a federal agent supposed
to be making federal cases.
Some of the cases we were ableto take to the county, some we
(15:53):
were able to take to the stateattorney general's office, but
the ones we brought to the USattorney's office, like the
federal prosecutors about 90% ofthem they passed on.
So anyway, years later, 2009,because I got down here in 2007.
So in October of 2009, ourgroup's focus was changed.
We were focused on homeinvasions and drug robberies,
(16:15):
because Phoenix led the UnitedStates at that time in home
invasions and kidnappings andthey were second in this
hemisphere behind Mexico City,which is a much, much bigger
city than Phoenix.
So obviously that's notsomething to be proud of.
But I had worked on some homeinvasion cases in New York, so I
was like fine.
So I was kind of excited,different thing to work on
(16:36):
something that I had experiencedon working on in the past and I
was tired of the grind with theUS Attorney's Office but they
kept turning our cases down.
But they so they stood up a newgroup in Phoenix that was
tasked with Mexico-boundfirearms trafficking.
Well, after a while we start tohear at these meetings, these
numbers, like we're on this casewith 600 guns, 900 guns,
different meetings, and I'm like, wow, okay, interesting case.
(16:58):
And I'm thinking that theyfound this historical treasure
trove of documents.
But as the numbers were goingup, it was pretty clear that
that's not the case, because Imean, if they found the
documents, then you know, keepfinding them.
So, anyway, a little while intoit, a Border Patrol agent named
Brian Terry gets killed and allof a sudden this water cooler
talk starts that they werewalking guns and letting them go
(17:20):
.
And then around this time westart getting calls from the
dealers that used to call us,because what happened is, when
we would seize the guns, theywould never have to be traced
because we knew exactly wherethey came from.
Well, the dealers were like,hey man, why, all of a sudden,
with this new group, are wegetting phone calls from ATF
saying the gun was recovered inMexico?
Like with us, nobody went tojail.
(17:40):
But the guns were in our vault.
They weren't used to shoot somecop or some kid or you know
whatever.
So but it was around this timethat an agent named John Dodson,
who was in that group, who knewwhat was going on, contacted
Senator Chuck Grassley's officeand said that ATF was walking
guns.
So now I'm at a subsequentmeeting and the special agent in
(18:01):
charge of the Phoenix fielddivision who was a nice man, I
would argue, very inexperiencedwhen it came to street work he
came in and told us hey, the USattorney's office same US
attorney's office that declinedall of those cases I was talking
about was very upset with JohnDodson for contacting Senator
Grassley's office and don't besurprised if he finds himself
(18:21):
indicted.
I'd stay away from him, or somewords to that effect.
I remember going home thatnight, not very happy obviously,
and talking to my wife andexplaining what happened, all
those cases that were declined.
And now they're talking aboutindicting John who who, candidly
, I didn't even know I don'tknow if I ever even was on the
shooting range with him evernever had a conversation with
(18:45):
him, but again, I didn't thinkit was right.
So we had a discussion.
The very following morning Icalled Senator Grassley's office
and said hey, listen, I spoketo a guy named Brian Downey who
was one of his staffers.
I said, brian, I know you'rebeing told that by Eric Holder
and by ATF and the Department ofJustice that ATF doesn't walk
guns and that John Knott's is aliar.
I'm just letting you know he'snot lying and if you give me a
subpoena, I'll tell youeverything you want to know
(19:07):
about what's been happening inPhoenix over the past couple of
years.
And lo and behold, a couple ofweeks later I get a phone call.
I'm sitting at my desk and itwas another gentleman from
Congress, a staffer named ColtonDavis, and he's like Mr
Friselli, we have a subpoenahere for you.
You can either come downstairsto the hotel across the street,
(19:28):
which was a Hyatt, from ouroffice, we can come up to the
ninth floor and serve you there,or we can come out to your
house and serve you there.
I was like, hey, I'll be rightdown and took possession of the
subpoena.
And that's kind of where thejourney began, as far as you
know, blowing the whistle andspeaking about what happened
there and you know, and then theretaliation that followed.
It all began with, you knowthem talking about indicting
(19:51):
John when for years they weren'tindicting criminals.
Jerry (19:57):
Why was the sudden switch ?
Pete (20:00):
That you know.
That's something I never foundout.
Why was it for years?
Once the gun made its way toMexico, we were told they
couldn't prosecute because thecorpus delecti, the body of the
crime, was in Mexico.
I mean, this was many, many,many defendants, mind you.
Now, all of a sudden, thestrategy is to let the guns go
to Mexico.
So I mean, we were never toldwhy that would happen.
There were rumblings that one ofthe things that they were
(20:21):
looking to do was to implementthis thing called Demand Letter
3.
And this, when I say they,that's not Phoenix, I mean this
was people in the Department ofJustice.
The way it works is and I don'tknow if your listeners might
know if you go into a gun storeand you buy two pistols, you
have to fill out a multiple saleform, right, so you can buy a
pistol and that form is notfilled up.
(20:42):
If you go in and buy a bunch ofrifles, like those people were
doing who were coming up fromMexico, you also didn't have to
fill out a multiple sale form.
It only applied to two pistols.
So while Fast and Furious wasgoing on, the brass was kind of
gleeful in this idea, like, hey,we can implement this multiple
sale form for rifles now, andthey in fact did as a result of
(21:04):
Fast and Furious, where now it'snot a national thing, but if
you buy more than one rifle in aborder state so Texas, new
Mexico, arizona, california youhave to fill out this form now,
which is kind of sickening ifyou think about it, because,
look, a lot of people in Mexicowere killed with guns that were
smuggled during Fast and Furious.
Helicopters were downed withrifles, .50 caliber rifles that
(21:26):
were smuggled as part of Fastand
Furious.
And Brian Terry, who was aBorder Patrol agent with BORTAC,
which is like the elite of theelite of the Border Patrol,
right, you think about Uvalde,that school shooting standoff,
right, if you remember, whilethe cops were standing there not
you know kind of deciding aplan, a border patrol BORTAC guy
(21:47):
blasted past them, went in andended the threat, right, these
guys are like the high-speedelite SWAT guys.
I'd put them up against FBI'sHRT, and Brian was one of those
guys.
And here he's killed in thedesert, you know.
So the government neverexplained to the family as to
why or what, but if it was toimplement this demand letter
three, I can't think of anythingmore appalling.
But again, I mean, he's dead.
(22:08):
The family wasn't told what wasgoing on and the US attorney's
office was thinking of indictingJohn Dodson
perhaps.
And I was like this is just abridge too far for me as a
leader.
There's no way I could staythere and just keep my mouth
shut about it.
And then the other thing is andit really weighed on me is I
watched my agents do everythingthe right way Stop cars, ask
(22:30):
questions, gather evidence andalways be told no.
So I was like I had a prettygood run in New York and it was
because of those partnerships.
I watched my agents do whatthey were supposed to do and
realized they'll never reachtheir full potential, not
because of them, but because ofthe prosecutors.
So I mean there were so manythings that weighed into why it
(22:51):
was the right thing to do.
But yeah, I did.
It Turned into like a four-yearordeal afterwards to clear my
name, because US attorneysalways didn't like the
allegations being levied at them.
So you know, obviously theyturned around and made some
counterclaims, all of whichproved to be untrue, but it took
four years to do it.
Jerry (23:10):
Yeah, how did that weigh on you and your family during
those four years.
That had to be rough.
Pete (23:16):
Oh, it was rough.
And you bring up the importantthing.
It's like is like, look, Iraised my hand and took an oath
and I mean I never expected togo through something like that,
nor would I want to ever again.
But my family didn't.
So I mean, you know, I movedthem from the northeast, they
came with me to arizona.
So they know we didn't havefamily in phoenix and we were
alone out there and they hadarrived that storm.
So I mean I wound up gettingsurveilled where you know there
(23:37):
were times we'd go to dinner andthere were people like and not
covert surveillance, I mean likeovert, like hey, man, we're
watching you kind ofsurveillance which was really
unnerving for two kids who werelike one was high school age,
the other one was about to enterhigh school age.
So I mean that was that wasrough.
And then you know, the otherthing is, because you're being
surveilled, my lawyer was on theon the East Coast.
(24:01):
I'm in Phoenix, I know how thegovernment works.
So I wasn't going tocommunicate with the lawyer by
email or by phone.
So traveling back and forth tosee the attorney got real
expensive.
So we almost frankly werebankrupted by the whole ordeal.
But in the end, again, I wasable to exonerate myself.
But I mean there was a pointwhere in that four-year period,
(24:21):
on six different occasions, whenthe US Attorney's Office would
make allegations that– theycouldn't prove, but it was like
kind of he said, you know, hesaid, he said, or whatever I
would, I would say hey look, ifyou don't believe me, put me on
a polygraph.
To the inspector general'soffice, which, as a federal
agent, is risky Cause if youfail a polygraph they're pulling
your security clearance.
And I happen to know enough toknow that the polygraph is not
(24:42):
the most reliable device.
But I just I was so backed intothe corner that I didn't know
what else, frankly, to do.
Jerry (24:48):
And I would have taken it , but each time I would say hey
put me on the box, theirresponse would be no.
Pete (24:52):
No, that's not necessary.
We haven't gotten there yet, MrFriselli, but it made for a
difficult four years, to say theleast.
Jerry (25:00):
Yeah, I bet that would put a strain on your family
dynamics, your relationship withyour wife probably never
feeling comfortable.
If you're being watched all thetime like that, that's got to
be very, very unnerving for them.
Like you said, because theydidn't sign up for that right, I
can't, did you?
I'm assuming you discussed thiswith your wife before you said,
(25:21):
hey, I'm going to do this andthis is what could possibly
happen well.
Pete (25:25):
Actually, when I went home and told her what they were
doing to john and then I wascontemplating reaching out to
grassley's office her responsewas my wife's no joke man.
My wife grew up in the Bronx.
She's a tough cookie.
She's like hey, if you don't,you're not the man I married.
My family always expected me todo the right thing and the
amazing thing was, through thisall, she stayed by my side and
(25:45):
my kids were also verysupportive.
But it wasn't easy for that manLike we I wound up having a porn
jewelry to make the mortgagepayment.
Like I had watches I hadcollected as a detective that I
just I was, you know, I meanprized possessions.
They were gone.
My grandfather's rifle that heleft me when he passed gone had
a pawn that we got to the pointwhere we were holding yard sales
in the driveway where you knowI used to love to work with my
(26:07):
hands.
When you buy a drill for like$150 and you're trying to sell
it for 50 because you got tomake a mortgage payment and the
guy standing there trying tobargain you down from 50 to 15,
it's incredibly humbling and itsucked.
I mean I don't know how else tosay it.
But I think seeing that in aweird way gave my kids and my
(26:28):
wife a resilience that theywouldn't have had otherwise.
So I mean, look, I think as afamily we learned a lot from it.
But look, if my kids becausethey're both in law enforcement
now if they came up to me andsaid hey, should I blow the
whistle on this or that, I'm notgoing to lie and say absolutely
, I would probably try to talkthem out of it.
Because the weirdest thing is Istill speak to people in
(26:51):
Phoenix and the US Attorney'sOffice there hasn't gotten any
better.
So the same stuff that I blewthe whistle on may not be going
on to the same extent.
And obviously no more BorderPatrol agents have been killed,
but they're not doing their jobany better now than they were
then.
So I mean, in some ways it'skind of sad that a lot of it was
all for nothing.
Jerry (27:10):
Yeah, that's extremely sad because that is a really
rough thing to go through, yeah,and then not make any change.
It sucked, yeah, yeah, I'vejust sometimes I hear these type
of stories, you know, fromguests.
I'm like I'm trying to likeimagine, you know, I'm sitting
here in my office and I'mlooking outside and thinking,
(27:31):
you know, like, wow, you know,holding a garage still to to
make my mortgage payment, likewhat would that look like?
Like, how would I, how would Ifeel, how would my family feel?
Like what you know.
And then the other thing is asmuch as we would hate to say is
like what are other peoplethinking about me?
Pete (27:47):
You know it's funny because in the beginning I think
some people thought, like youknow, because, look, nobody
believed.
This is the weird thing whenJohn Dodson blew the whistle on
people walking guns, nobodybelieved John.
Right, we didn't believe John.
We weren't in that group.
They were doing things in thatgroup that just went against the
grain of everything we do.
So, you know, once I found outit was happening, I stepped
forward as well.
(28:08):
But there were people in otherparts of the country within ATF
and certainly the people outsideof ATF.
When other law enforcemententities heard that guns were
being walked, they were likewhat are you people crazy?
But I mean that same dynamicapplied to people from within.
ATF in, like Chicago orAlbuquerque or wherever.
So I mean, at first they didn'tknow what to take of me.
Like is pete an asshole?
(28:29):
Is he a liar?
Him and john like malcontents.
So they didn't know.
And then even within management, like some of the management
wanted to cut my head off.
But the nice thing was thatthere was somebody like the
whole management team in phoenixgot wiped out and I think this
is important to bring up.
So what happened was when theybrought in a new management team
it was around the same time Igot subpoenaed.
So so when I got subpoenaed, Ihad to notify my chain of
(28:50):
command, the new chain ofcommand.
Hey, I got subpoenaed and thenew head of the ATF office in
Phoenix was a guy named TomBrandon who had transferred in
from Detroit again to right theship.
So imagine, you just crashedinto the Titanic and they bring
in some poor guy to hey, here'sthe steering wheel, now you take
it from here.
But Now you take it from here.
But when I told him I gotsubpoenaed, tom literally
(29:10):
reached into his pocket and hehanded me a challenge coin.
He was a very religious guy,catholic guy he handed me.
So I'm Catholic but I'm not asreligious.
So when he handed me thischallenge coin it was a St
Michael challenge coin, which isthe patron saint of cops and
soldiers and whatnot and he saidPete, as long as you're telling
the truth, I have your back.
And for those four years whereI was getting my head kicked in,
(29:31):
tom I mean he couldn't reallyfight for me because he didn't
see what I saw, but he, unlike alot of other managers, gave me
the latitude to fight for myself.
And when I was in someparticular battles with whether
it was the deputy attorneygeneral or the ATF director or
certainly the US attorneyhimself presidentially appointed
US attorney in Phoenix he gaveme the room to fight my battles
(29:54):
without telling me, hey, pipedown, or hey, you need to shut
up.
So I mean, you know, that'sthat.
And I think once people saw, asTom moved up in the organization
, that Tom trusted me, thenfolks began to say, hey, maybe
he's not such a bad guy.
And then, as time went on and Igot to actually talk to some of
those folks, then they realizedthat, hey, I did this for the
(30:16):
right reasons.
I didn't do this because I wastrying to make a name for myself
.
I didn't.
I mean I wrote the book.
Now that I'm retired I couldhave done some of these things
way, way back in the day.
I didn't think it was rightbecause you know it just would
rock the boat a little bit.
But also I didn't think itwould have been right that Brian
Terry was his family.
Never was told, even to thisday, really, what happened.
But I mean I felt like he justpassed like to write a book and
(30:36):
profit from that would have beenin bad taste.
But now, knowing what I knowabout how the Phoenix US
Attorney's Office hasn't gottenany better and the lawyers there
were never held accountable,I'm like you know what.
It's time to tell the story.
Jerry (30:56):
And that's why here, 10 years plus later, I decided to
write the book.
Pete (30:59):
Yeah, did you ever want to give up during this process?
You know, I I was a cop.
I mean at heart, like not, andnot when I say a cop I mean like
a cop, like the same kid thatwalked the beat, like I.
Just I love this profession.
So did I want to give up?
No, and I don't have anotherskill.
I mean I studied carpentry fora while and I sucked at it.
(31:20):
So I mean I don't know whatelse I would have did to make a
living, but I truly love theprofession.
Going back 35 years in theprofession four years of hell
still didn't turn me against theprofession or even ATF.
I love ATF and a lot ofpositive change came out of the
whistleblowing from within ATFDidn't really happen throughout
the Department of Justice, wherethere could have been some
(31:41):
reflection and some improvements.
They just kind of circled thewagons.
So I mean some positive changesdid come out of it, I think.
But yeah, I mean maybe I'mstupid, but I just never thought
, hey, man, let me pack it inand go, because I don't know
where I, where I would have gone, if that makes any sense.
Jerry (31:57):
It makes complete sense to me.
I mean, it's really difficult,I think to for one like you're
talking about skills, right,this is your skill set, this is
what you've done.
This is what you know.
This is what you've done.
This is what you know.
This is you know.
And then to be like walk awayfrom something you know that you
loved, even though it's reallyhard to do something different,
you know it, doesn't it?
(32:20):
Probably being a carpenter,even if you were good at it, may
not have been fulfilling likebeing a law enforcement officer,
was.
Pete (32:26):
Oh and look, the reality is too, and we talked about this
.
You know, I look at what'sgoing on in the world today, in
the United States, where lawenforcement has been demonized
and there are certain people youknow that want to defund and
all that stuff.
And you know people will takesomething that happens in a
split second and analyze it forhours, weeks, months, years and
then turn it around and demonizethe cop.
(32:46):
That's not the profession thatI knew and loved.
I mean, some of the finestpeople I worked with in my life
were cops and then, like youknow, I had a very good career
and I was blessed.
But I had a good career becauseI worked with good people.
Like you know, none of thestuff that I accomplished that I
accomplished on my own.
I had good leaders.
I had some bad ones.
(33:06):
Again, we learned from both.
I worked with some great cops.
I worked with some lazy what's.
You learn from them too.
But the reality is, I think,when law enforcement is a noble
profession, that's in a badplace right now and I think just
I loved it.
So I mean, that's why I'm stillkind of like advocating for law
enforcement in my retirement,because I just think it's
(33:27):
important for us as a family, alaw enforcement family, to stick
together, and that's what madeit hard for me to think about
even leaving it at any point,whether it was back then because
I was going to be forced out,or even when I retired back in
2021.
It's a profession that I reallythink is just so vitally
important, but I know that wealso have a duty to try to get
(33:49):
right.
But the public, I think, has aduty to understand when we, when
we mess up, if it's an honestmistake, and not demonize the
person that makes the mistake,or to demonize an entire
profession because of the actsof a few bad apples.
You know, I mean, they don't doit to doctors, they don't do it
to lawyers, and let me tell you, there are plenty of bad
lawyers out there.
So it's just to me, it's just,you know, I don't know.
(34:10):
I look, I was blessed to bepart of it for so long.
Jerry (34:13):
Yeah, I think they do like to go after law enforcement
.
It's just they feel like it's a, it's an easy target right now.
Yeah, unfortunately, you knowjust, uh, it's just bad, like
it's just, and you know, noteverybody's perfect.
I think they expect theseofficers you know everybody's
perfect.
I think they expect theseofficers, you know, to make
perfect decisions in fractionsof of seconds.
(34:34):
You know, and it's just like,yeah, mistakes happen and you
know some of them are really badmistakes and but right, just a
few bad apples, you know peoplejust could understand.
The rest are really workingreally hard to to keep you safe
and do the right thing.
Sure.
Pete (34:51):
Well, I mean, look, here's the other thing too.
Maintaining order isn't alwayspretty right.
Necessary force, they call it.
It's the minimal amount offorce necessary On a body camera
sometimes, that minimal amountof force, especially on
somebody's cell phone camerawhich they get cleverly edited.
But I mean, those things can beugly, right and, as I'm saying,
even when it's perfect, evenwhen it's executed within the
(35:13):
law and perfectly, it's notpretty.
But these people who weredemonizing the cops who use
force when they have to toprotect their life or the life
of another, right.
So now you have cops who areafraid to use force and the
pendulum has swung where somecities have gotten a little bit
out of control.
What these politicians andothers who advocate against cops
forget is, at some pointthere's going to be a need to
(35:35):
restore order, and restoringorder is a lot more violent and
a lot uglier than maintainingorder.
So I mean, I just wish that hewould have thought things
through before they started onthis demonization thing, Because
you know, look, I don't thinkcops go out there wanting to
hurt anybody, right or they'reone or two idiots?
yeah, sure, um I.
(35:56):
But look, and we, we know thisbecause we were in this
profession.
Plenty of cops go home injuredevery day, you know, and
sometimes injured because theywent that extra mile to not hurt
the suspect right, right, rightso yeah, it's crazy agree, you
know p.
Jerry (36:12):
Before I let you go, let's talk just a little bit
more briefly about your book.
Like, what will people get fromyour book, the Fast?
And we're talking about theFast and Furious, Sure.
Well, the book's called.
Pete (36:22):
The Deadly Path, how Operation Fast and Furious and
Bad Lawyers Armed MexicanCartels.
And what they'll hear is thereal story, because if you
watched the news back then youeither heard the Democrat
version or the Republicanversion of events, because the
news media was like now was abit polarized.
So the Democrat version wasthis started under George Bush.
The Republican version wasBarack Obama created this.
(36:44):
You know, you'll see, thisstarted in Phoenix.
It was a boots on the groundthing that spun out of control
because people abandoned thebasic tenets of policing and
leadership failed andprosecutors failed to do what
prosecutors are supposed to do.
So it's just the real, you know, unbiased story, firsthand
account of what happened here.
And look, there were thingsthat rumbled around that I
(37:07):
didn't see.
I don't speculate, I only putin the book what I personally
witnessed and saw, and you'llsee the body count was growing
in Mexico long before Fast andFurious even began because the
prosecutors weren't doing theirjobs.
And then folks will see whathappens when you speak truth to
power and how the governmentdoesn't exactly like to hear
someone call their baby ugly,even when the baby's hideous.
Jerry (37:31):
Yeah, oh yeah, right, I totally agree with that, Pete.
Where can people find the bookand see what you're doing with
it?
Pete (37:39):
Sure, the book's available on Amazon and at all the major
bookstores like Barnes, nobleBooks, a Million, whatnot.
I have a website where ifsomebody wants to get a signed
copy, it's easy.
It's wwwpeterjforsellicom.
But yeah, it's out there now.
It's been on the shelves sinceMarch 5th and if folks decide to
(38:00):
buy it, I'd be appreciative forthe support and if they feel
it's a good book.
Word of mouth helps sell books.
Man, when you're not StephenKing or James Patterson, you
need all the help you can get.
Jerry (38:15):
Yeah, man, when you're, when you're not stephen king or
james patterson, you need allthe help you can get.
Yeah, as we were talking aboutthis before we started recording
, this is not an easy thing todo to to write a story like this
, it takes a lot of work, a lotof time, extreme amount of
dedication and a lot offinancial backing right or of
your own personal backing to dothis.
Pete (38:34):
Oh, yeah, and you hope to break even, um, frankly, but
yeah, it's, it's.
It was something else and, look, I gotta give credit, I wrote
it.
It was originally twice as longas it is now and I brought in a
young lady named KeelanMcGregor they call her Kate
McGregor to edit it and make itmore manageable read, so it
didn't read like a really,really really long police report
and she did a great job as faras just making it, you know,
(38:56):
more like a book that folkswould rather read instead of
this lengthy OIG report orsomething like that.
So, I'm going to give her creditwhere it's due, you know.
Jerry (39:04):
Yeah, totally Pete.
Thank you so much for being ontoday.
I really appreciate it.
Pete (39:09):
Honored to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Jerry (39:10):
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
If you know someone that wouldbe great on the show, please get
a hold of our host, jerry DeanLund, through the Instagram
handles at JerryFireAndFuel orat End the badge podcast.
(39:33):
Also by visiting the show'swebsite, enduring the badge
podcastcom, for additionalmethods of contact and
up-to-date information regardingthe show.
Remember, the views andopinions expressed during the
show solely represent those ofour host and the current
(39:54):
episode's guests.
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