March 19, 2024 • 40 mins
Discover the transformative realm of psychedelics as Paul Austin, the visionary behind Third Wave, joins us to unveil the intricacies of using these powerful substances responsibly for healing and personal growth. Through Paul's narrative, we traverse his evolution from conventional roots to becoming a pioneer in the psychedelic community, highlighting his profound experiences with cannabis, LSD, and psilocybin mushrooms. Delving into the societal shift towards acceptance, as reflected by legislative changes in Colorado and Oregon, we tackle the delicate subject of responsible use versus recreational misuse, particularly within the intense scenarios faced by first responders.
Venture into the subtle yet impactful world of microdosing, where sub-perceptual doses of psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin offer a plethora of mental health benefits. This episode illuminates how microdosing can enhance mood, energy, and neuroplasticity, fostering a heightened sense of presence without intoxication. We underscore the vital role of professional guidance in this nuanced practice and the value of personal customization in dosage for optimal daily functioning. Join us as we share anecdotal insights and discuss the doorway that microdosing opens to deeper psychedelic experiences.
This conversation also casts light on the burgeoning field of psychedelic-assisted therapy, creating waves with substances like ketamine and the promising research on MDMA for PTSD. As we navigate these therapeutic landscapes, we consider the integration of profound psychedelic insights into daily life, advocating for meditation and reflective practices post-experience. With an eye on the legal horizon, we guide you through resources for legally embracing these therapies while addressing employment and drug testing concerns. Tune in for an episode that's not just about psychedelics, but about the hopeful future they could herald for mental health treatment.
As a First Responder, you are critical in keeping our communities safe. However, the stress and trauma of the job can take a toll on your mental health and family life.
If you're interested in personal coaching, contact Jerry Lund at 801-376-7124. Let's work together to get you where you want to be and ensure a happy and healthy career.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jerry (00:15):
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
Podcast.
I'm host Jerry Dean Lund and ifyou haven't already done so,
please take out your phone andhit that subscribe button.
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And hey, while your phone's out, please give us a rating and
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On whichever platform youlisten to this podcast on, such
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It helps this podcast grow andthe reason why, when this gets
(00:37):
positive ratings and reviews,those platforms like App
Podcasts and Spotify show thisto other people that never
listened to this podcast before,and that allows our podcast to
grow and make a more of animpact on other people's lives.
So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isPaul Austin.
How are you doing, paul?
Paul (00:57):
Hey Jerry, I am doing pretty well.
How are you doing?
Jerry (00:59):
I'm doing good.
Thank you so much for being ontoday.
Paul, can you introduceyourself to the audience?
Paul (01:06):
So I grew up in Grand Rapids, michigan.
That's where I'm from.
I spent the first 21 years ofmy life there and was raised in
a pretty traditional religiousfamilial structure Not
fundamentalist and notnecessarily conservative I'd
definitely like church everySunday for 18 years.
(01:26):
And when I was 16, I started toexperiment with cannabis and my
parents found out, weren't toohappy about that and that's like
an understatement.
And then, a few years afterthat, I started to explore the
world of psychedelics when I wasabout 19,.
Lsd and psilocybin, mushroomsOver the span of maybe 10 to 15
(01:50):
experiences.
They had a massive impact onthe path that I chose to follow
out of my early 20s.
And so, at the age of 21, Imoved to Turkey where I taught
English for a year and soonafter that lived in Thailand and
then proceeded to travel to, Ithink, over 70 countries in the
span of maybe 10 years.
So I've lived very nomadicallyand one of the places that I
(02:12):
lived was Budapest in Hungary in2015.
And we were talking about twofriends and I were talking about
psychedelics and how Joe Roganand Tim Ferriss and a lot of
people were starting to publishepisodes about it.
More clinical research wascoming out, this was being
reevaluated and we thought, oh,it'd be great to provide people
(02:32):
with research backed education,and so I started Third Wave as
an educational platform in 2015.
We've reached 25 million peoplethrough our educational content
, and the focus really is on theintentional and responsible use
of psychedelics, how these canhelp to heal trauma, but also
how they can help us to become,when I say, better leaders,
(02:55):
better lovers and betterlisteners.
And what I've found is in thelast, probably five years in
particular, there's been amassive upswing of interest in
these substances.
In fact, in 2023, they did asurvey research and the number
of people who had usedpsychedelics compared to 2019,
(03:18):
so just a four year time periodquadrupled Just a four X the
number of people worked withpsychedelics in 2023 compared to
2019.
And, further to that, 61% ofAmericans now support legal
psychedelic assisted therapy.
So this is really on thecutting edge.
The efficacy of it is quiteoutstanding and it's already
(03:39):
legal in Colorado and Oregon,and so there are places that you
can go in the United States andlegally work with these
psychedelics.
So that interest has beenfantastic.
It's been great just to witnesshow the sector has grown and
how this has helped so manypeople and yeah, I'm excited for
what the future can bring forpsychedelics.
Jerry (04:01):
Yeah, I'm excited too.
I'm excited to see them beingused in the first responder
world to help healing.
But, paul, to be honest, mostprobably the first responders
listening their experience withpsychedelics is on the negative
side, like when I responded topeople that were clearly high to
(04:26):
a level where they needed someserious help or police
intervention.
So when you say psychedelics, Ithink people go right to those
visions of those people.
But this is not what this isabout.
Paul (04:42):
Right?
Well, it's partly what it isabout.
I think it's important to evenacknowledge on the front end
that there's some risk to this,that if they're not done with a
guide or a therapist or apractitioner or friends that you
really trust, then things cango sideways.
This most commonly happens atfestivals, music festivals, but
it can also happen just innormal everyday life that,
(05:03):
especially if done at higherdoses, they can lead people in a
highly intoxicated state andthat at times very rarely but at
times can be dangerous, I think, for first responders in those
situations, even having theeducation of well, what do I do?
Because someone who's on cokeor amphetamine speed is going to
be much different than someonemost likely on psychedelics.
(05:23):
Usually someone in psychedelicsneeds to breathe lay down
potentially valium, xanax,benzodiazepine can be very
useful and helpful and justsomeone to help them, help
remind them they're not dead orthey're not going crazy, because
that tends to be the mostcommon sort of.
There's deep paranoia that canarise if there's not a safe
(05:46):
setting for these experiences.
But I think what's interestingabout psychedelics is, unlike a
lot of these more let's say,heroin or even fentanyl there's
no way to physically overdose onpsychedelics.
So even if you were to take5,000 micrograms of LSD, which
is 50 times the normal doselevel, not even a micro dose,
(06:08):
it's about much more than, butabout 50 times the normal dose
level, I mean someone would havea very deep, significant
experience, but physiologicallythey would end up perfectly safe
and fine.
No one has ever died fromtaking the sort of physical
ingestion of the classicspsychedelic, psilocybin, lsd and
also mescaline, which is in inSan Pedro so.
(06:33):
But psychologically obviouslyit can create a level of
instability, and so that's why,even when we started the third
wave, we advise start low, goslow.
You can always take more, youcan't necessarily take less.
We really put microdosing frontand center, and I've led with
that for a long time, becausemicrodosing appears to have a
(06:54):
lot of the same clinical andphysiological benefits as higher
doses, but there's lessinherent risk for, let's say,
self medication because, as somany people are hearing about
psychedelics and because thelegal landscape it's developing
quickly but it's still behindculture there are a lot of
people who are just taking inhealing into their own hands and
(07:17):
sometimes they don't know rightfrom wrong, they don't know
best practices, they don't maybehave resources available, maybe
they're in a town or small citywhere there aren't people who
could help support them.
So microdosing, I think, as alens to onboard into some of
this deeper work, is a great,let's say, harm reduction or
(07:41):
educational framework.
Now I will say that and we'llprobably dive into this deeper A
lot of first responders, a lotof military, have found
substantial benefits fromworking with psychedelics and
specifically within a clinicalframework whether that's
Ibogaine, 5meo, psilocybin,mushrooms, even ayahuasca, in
(08:03):
retreat centers and there'salmost always a medical doctor
there, there are trainedpractitioners, because much of
the trauma that military andfirst responders have experience
is quite intense, and so whenyou go into these deeper
psychedelic states, the materialthat you have to work with has
(08:23):
a high charge.
There's a lot of energy behindit.
Usually sadness or anger orgrief can be one as well.
So how was that process?
How was that brought up?
That's all part of theimportance of facilitation when
working with these very deepstates.
Jerry (08:43):
Yeah, let's dive down into that a little bit, but
let's start.
What is microdosing?
What is microdosing?
Paul (08:49):
Yeah.
So microdosing is taking a verylow dose of the psychedelic.
I would call it asub-intoxicating dose, meaning
you can still navigate youreveryday reality, you're not
intoxicated.
People notice that when theymicrodose two, three times a
week for maybe 30 days or 60days, it helps them to wean off
certain psychiatric medications.
(09:10):
It helps them to have a bettermood, more energy.
It has a really strongantidepressant effect.
People notice they're a littleless reactive, they're a little
bit more present, their mood isa little bit better.
I would say 70% to 80% of peoplehave this experience.
(09:30):
This is the most commonexperience.
For some people it makes themquite tired.
These are usually people whohave been running an overdrive
for too long and need to sleepmore.
When they start microdosingthey tend to have this fatigue
that comes on.
There are other folks who startmicrodosing and there's stuff
that's emotions and othermaterial that starts to get
(09:51):
unpacked and processed, which iswhy not in every protocol that
I've done, but in some protocolsI've done it with a therapist.
I'll take a low dose ofmushrooms.
I'll go to the therapist for anhour, take about 200 milligrams
of psilocybin, which is about amicrodose.
I would unpack some of thatmaterial there.
(10:12):
I do think it can be helpfulthat even when taking these low
doses if you're doing them onceor twice or three times a week
to have a coach or a therapist,a psychologist, a practitioner
who can help you as you start tounpack that Ideally preferably
someone who has education andawareness about psychedelics,
because they're much differentthan the classic psychiatric
(10:33):
medications.
Thankfully, more coaches, moretherapists, more medical
professionals are training inthis.
We even have a directory atthird wave of clinics, retreat
therapists and providers thatfolks can check out.
The most commonly microdosesubstances are LSD and
psilocybin mushrooms.
Psilocybin is more, I would say, emotionally therapeutic.
(10:56):
Lsd is more about cognitiveenhancement, cognitive
performance.
People find that with LSD,twice a week is sufficient.
With psilocybin mushrooms itcould be twice or three times a
week.
What I usually recommend is totake a day off in between each
microdose.
Psychedelics have a tolerancewindow, a short-term tolerance
(11:20):
window, about 48 hours.
It allows your serotonin systemto reset.
Then you can basically do it onalternating days, even at third
wave.
I would say folks are curiousabout this or they're interested
in this.
We've started to run onlinecoaching, group coaching, like a
45-day microdosing experiencewhere we guide folks through two
(11:43):
to three times a week,microdosing protocol with
coaching, group coaching, aworkbook, an assessment form all
these aspects that help peopleto do it safely and with
guidance.
Basically, it's part of thatprocess.
Jerry (11:59):
Yeah, what's taking place in, I guess, the body and the
mind when people are takingthese microdoses?
Paul (12:07):
Two core things are what I usually point to.
One is the impact onneuroplasticity.
It's helping to make the brainmore plastic, more malleable.
What happens, especially whenwe've experienced trauma, had
trauma physical trauma, but alsoemotional trauma is there are
(12:27):
parts of our brain thatbasically shut down.
There's neuronal connectionsthat die off.
This is also related todementia and Alzheimer's.
If that happens earlier in life, we can enter a more depressed,
rigid state of anxiety andconstriction.
What psychedelics do is theyespecially at high doses, but
(12:48):
this could also apply, and doesalso apply, to microdosing.
At high doses they basicallyturn your brain into what it was
like when it was five years old.
It's much more plastic.
All those neuronal connectionsthat died off get reactivated.
It's like Jesus rising from thedead.
Psychedelics resurrect thepathways that we've forgotten.
(13:09):
That has a substantial andimmediate effect on depression,
on mood, on our ability to learn, our ability to process emotion
.
The neuroplastic element ofpsychedelics, particularly with
the way that it helps toreactivate these old connections
(13:31):
in the brain, can be veryhelpful.
Then the second thing is whatit does to the amygdala.
The amygdala is this littlealmond-shaped, tiny part of your
brain.
It's the oldest part of yourbrain.
They call it the reptilianbrain.
It's your fear response center,especially if we've experienced
PTSD.
Whenever we try to recall thatmemory or that traumatic
(13:52):
experience, the amygdalatightens up, it constricts,
because it's afraid to processthe grief and depth of the
difficulty of what happened.
When we take a psychedelic, itdown regulates that fear
response.
It's like you're swathing theamygdala in fuzzy silk, alpaca
(14:17):
wool I love alpaca wool, it'sthe best.
You're cloaking it in that andit softens it.
All of a sudden, things that mayhave been difficult to discuss,
to talk about, can come to thesurface and they can be unpacked
and they can be reintegrated.
That is really the term thatallows us then to confront
(14:39):
things both in our past but alsoin our present, with more
courage.
Usually, the two main benefits,sort of outcomes I point to are
your brain's going to behealthier and you're going to
have more courage to do thedifficult things that you know
have to happen but you could behesitant to take action on.
That can be trauma healing.
That can be difficult,conversations with loved ones.
(15:02):
That can be committing tomeditation every day.
There are certain things thatrequire us to be more to sort of
face our demons.
Psychedelics seem to help a lotwith that process.
They seem to help a lot withhealing things that are
(15:24):
subconscious and are unconscious, that are creating moments of
challenge and difficulty in ourpresent situation.
Jerry (15:35):
So would someone like that's been in the first
responder world for a while andhas been pretty shut down with
their emotions and stuff, couldthey take this microdose and
then could they still withholdthat information or still not do
the processing?
Does that make sense?
When I'm trying to explain?
Paul (15:55):
Yeah, so I think the key here is autonomous choice, right
or willful participation.
Jerry (16:00):
Yeah.
Paul (16:00):
So someone is like I'm committed to this, I'm on board
with this, I'm interested inresults.
These are some of the goals andthe objectives that I have.
This is what I want to explore.
That direction, that focus canthen be amplified by the lower
dosing or even the high dosepsychedelic worth.
But it really starts from there.
It really starts from a deepdesire to change and want change
(16:21):
and want, I would say, better,and not only want better, but
expect better, like, have ahigher sort of expectation for
ourselves that like no, there's.
I have choice in this, I haveagency, I have autonomy.
How things happen isn't howthings have to be, and
psychedelics, I think, reallyhelp us to remember that, to
(16:41):
wake up to that.
So many times we, you know we,life beats us down in many ways
and what psychedelics tend to dois they create an energy, like
an optimistic energy that wehave the capacity to make new
things happen.
So I think that the willingnessto commit matters, and then the
(17:02):
dosage matters, right, and whothe coach or practitioner or
therapist is, because if you dothis by yourself, that has, I
would say, one level of efficacy.
It's hard sometimes with lowerdosing to know am I doing the
dose correctly and you know if Icalibrated it appropriately,
should I take more or should Itake less?
So some group coaching,guidance, education can be
(17:26):
helpful on that.
I've also published a bookabout this called Mastering
Microdosing, which if folks arereaders they can check out and
then and then the third onewould be do it so you have by
yourself in a group or one onone right with a coach or a
therapist, that can really, andthere's some onboarding in terms
of dose level calibration.
But once you have the doselevel and the frequency, then
(17:48):
it's really about what can youunpack in that environment?
Jerry (17:52):
right.
Paul (17:53):
And looking at it as, yeah , a therapeutic or coaching lens
, that the low dose of thepsychedelic is going to make it
easier to change and adapt andgrow.
But the work still has to bedone.
You know, the fears have to befaced and the commitment has to
(18:13):
be made if people want to seeoutcomes and results.
And that's true for many things, and what I've experienced with
psychedelics is they're reallyhelpful allies in the process,
like just the taking themedicine itself.
It does somethingneurologically, it does
something even spiritually athigher doses that just, for
whatever reason, makes thisprocess easier for a lot of
(18:37):
folks.
Jerry (18:40):
And what so maybe listeners are more familiar with
, like ketamine and thatreaction that they have with
that.
How is this different from fromthese other?
Taking these other medications?
Paul (18:55):
So ketamine is the most commonly used anesthetic in the
world.
It's probably, I would imagine,first responders EMT know and
have even potentially usedketamine.
About 25 years ago peoplestarted to notice that ketamine
as an anesthetic also had theseantidepressant effects.
(19:15):
And ketamine is currently legaland available pretty much
everywhere.
You need a prescribingpractitioner, but it is the most
widely used psychedelicmedication today.
People do consider it to bepsychedelic because of the
impact that it has on the brain.
Ketamine is much shorter lastingthan psilocybin and DMT
(19:38):
dimethyltryptamine, which is inayahuasca.
It's about 90 minutes, maybe aslong as two hours.
It's much more active onglutamate, whereas psilocybin is
more active on serotonin.
Glutamate is tied to learningquickly and adapting.
(19:58):
It's also tied to the abilityfor the brain to heal itself,
what we call dendritic sprouting.
Ketamine is more addictive thanpsilocybin.
It has to be used with somelevel of caution.
It's quite common in the clubscene as well.
For that reason, and like theother psychedelics, it's super
(20:21):
safe, even at high levels.
So even there was this paper notpaper, but an article published
about Matthew Perry's death,about saying he died from
ketamine like an overdose ofketamine.
The toxicology reported thiswhen in fact, the amount of
(20:42):
ketamine in a system.
Had he been in a safeenvironment, it would have put
him into a disassociated state,but by no means would he have
died.
He just would have been in adeeply disassociated state.
He died because he was in adeeply disassociated state and
drowned, and so the importantthing to emphasize with
psychedelics, with ketamine inparticular, is don't do it in
(21:06):
water.
You'd be surprised how manypeople will take hot baths and
do ketamine and it can lead.
I've heard of more than a fewpeople dying that way.
Ketamine in and of itself isquite safe if done in a
responsible setting, and theoutcomes are significant.
I would say 70% of people seeimprovements in depression,
(21:30):
improvements in mood, when theywork with ketamine, and it's
about, I would say, the efficacyis almost twice that of
conventional antidepressants atthis point in time.
And the thing that ketamine isreally really good for is
suicidality in particular, notjust a depression.
If someone is suicidal andyou're looking for a medication
that will have almost animmediate response on that,
(21:51):
ketamine is probably the bestthing that we currently have
available for it.
Jerry (21:56):
That's interesting.
My ketamine experiences.
I was in a chair and I was likeI don't know how I could have
got up and even move and walkaround, let alone have the
desire to take a bath orsomething like that.
It seems strange that someonewould want to take this and be
out in the public.
Paul (22:18):
Yeah, and or even because you did, I imagine an IV level
dose I did.
Jerry (22:26):
I just did intramuscular.
Paul (22:28):
You did intramuscular Okay .
Jerry (22:29):
Yeah.
Paul (22:29):
Intramuscular, so probably even more intense than IV.
Ketamine can also be a powder,so people insufflate it or
they'll have.
You probably did upwards of 200milligrams, whereas something
like 25 to 50 will just put youinto a slight trance state but
you can still move.
So it kind of creates thisobserver perspective and
(22:52):
mentality.
So a lot of people have it, getprescribed it.
They have it at home, they willuse it at home and if you're
experienced, you know whatyou're doing.
Fine, more power to you.
But a lot of these people arequite new at working with
ketamine and psychedelics.
So it's important that certainI would say precautions are put
into place if folks want to useit.
Jerry (23:12):
Yeah, I personally would never want to take on that my
own personal responsibility.
You know, to do a low doseketamine or to do something.
It's just the way it affectedme that I don't know that I
would want to to expose myselfto those types of situations.
Paul (23:30):
Yeah, it's a very vulnerable state.
Yeah, a very vulnerable state,absolutely.
Jerry (23:35):
And so the microdosing that you're talking about over
30 days.
How do I still function, howdoes it still go to work, how do
I still carry on a normal life?
Paul (23:49):
Yeah, what I tell folks is the first day you do it,
preferably on a weekend, whereyou don't necessarily have a ton
of responsibilities.
You don't have to go to a job,drive a car to your job, there's
not a lot of things happening.
Try it first on a weekend.
The key is finding the doselevel that again, it allows you
to navigate everyday realitywithout having no intoxication.
(24:13):
So you notice, your sense oftouch and smell and even sight
is enhanced.
You may be a little bit moreemotionally open, a little bit.
You might be checking yourphone less, less reactive, but
you're not intoxicated to thepoint where you can't navigate
your everyday existence.
So usually what we tell folksis spend a week or two in the
front end it could be a coupleof weekends in a row calibrating
(24:35):
the dose level appropriately,finding what your sweet spot is.
For most people it's 100milligrams of psilocybin and 10
micrograms of LSD.
But there are things thatimpact that, like, if someone
has a history of SSRI use,typically they need quite a bit
more.
If someone is older and they're60s or 70s, typically they
might need a little bit more.
If someone is highly neuroticor has, let's say,
(24:59):
treatment-resistant depression,they may need a little bit more.
So there are variables andfactors, but typically what I
tell people is 100 milligrams ofpsilocybin, 10 micrograms of
LSD.
Start low, go slow.
You can sort of slightlycalibrate up until you find the
dose level that's appropriatefor you and then enjoy.
Like some people maybe hesitant, for example with driving what
(25:23):
I would say is yeah, youdefinitely want to know how this
works.
You definitely want to know thedose amount that's correct for
you before you ever get in heavyoperate.
Heavy machinery is a goodrecommendation.
I and this may be irresponsibleof me to say such a thing, but
when I was microdosing with LSD,it was taking 20 micrograms of
(25:44):
LSD and driving a scooter aroundThailand.
This was like 10 years ago whenI was first microdosing and
what I noticed is it helped mewith coordination, it helped me
with vision, it helped me withnoticing things in my
peripherals and in fact in the70s a lot of extreme sport
athletes talked about low dosesof LSD as like the thing that
(26:07):
got you ahead, the thing thathelped you to just be in a
little bit more flow, like kindof see things before they happen
, be super in touch with yourbody.
So that's why I've talked somuch about low doses of LSD as
performance enhancing, because Ithink if there's a relationship
established, you understand thedose level that's appropriate
for you.
You kind of have a sense thatthe lay of the land doing it at
(26:29):
very low doses, I've foundespecially with LSD.
I mean with mushrooms as well,but with LSD I'm less fatigued,
I have more energy.
I mean, as an example, justyesterday I took a microdose of
LSD.
I had flown from New York toLisbon.
I got like four hours of shittysleep on the airplane.
I arrived I had an espresso andthen I took a gummy that had a
little bit of LSD in it and forthe rest of the day I felt good,
(26:52):
like it helped.
So yeah, caveat being don't trythis at home.
Folks Learn a little bit moreabout psychedelics.
I've been doing them for 15years, so I kind of know my way
around better than someone who'sjust starting out.
Jerry (27:08):
Yeah, To go back to those , the people that need a little
bit higher dose, is that becausemaybe their brains are not like
the neuroplasticity is a littlebit more difficult to get?
Paul (27:21):
Yeah, well, it goes back to what I mentioned before, this
dendritic sprouting, right?
So when we have depression,when there's been dramatic brain
injury, when we're older in age, even when we've utilized SSRIs
in the past, it impacts thatdendritic sprouting, it impacts
those neuronal connections andso to get those back online, you
got to.
You know it's like a jumpstartfor the car.
(27:43):
You got to supercharge it alittle bit, you got to get
energy moving, which is why alot of people who maybe have
depression or TBI or PTSD,microdosing is a great way for
them to wade their feed in.
It's a great way for them toget a sense of the landscape,
but typically they find the mostbenefit from doing a high dose
of a psychedelic, and that'swhat a lot of the clinical
(28:05):
research shows as well.
So microdosing, greatonboarding, but high doses of
ketamine, ayahuasca, high dosesof psilocybin, mushrooms, with a
guide, practitioner, therapist,coach, someone who can support
you, especially the first five,six, 10 times you do it.
That's really important.
Jerry (28:22):
So is this something that you like?
Once you start, you need tocontinue doing, or it's more
like you want to continue to doit because you're seeing the
benefits?
Paul (28:33):
All of the above.
I know plenty of folks who havejust had one or two or three
high dose experiences.
They're good, they're set,they're solid, gives them a lot
to unpack over the next severalyears In some cases.
There are some folks who, youknow, do it more as like a
maintenance modality.
So just like you'd go to thedentist every six months to get
(28:54):
your teeth clean, people will door work with a high dose just
to sort of, you know, reset theroom and clear out the
neurological garbage and have anemotional reset and let go of
some emotions and whatnot.
So that, I would say, isbecoming more common.
I would say the biggestchallenge right now is a lot of
these insights that weexperience or feelings that we
(29:17):
experience when we work withhigh doses of psychedelics.
It's difficult to integratethose with how we live the rest
of our lives.
Jerry (29:25):
Right.
Paul (29:25):
And so a lot of the challenges.
Ok, I've had this mysticalexperience with this beautiful,
profound experience.
You know I experienceunconditional love and you know
I was able to process thesadness and grief and anger that
I've been under the surface forso long.
And, oh, I also want to quit myjob and maybe move and divorce
(29:46):
my partner.
And you know there's, there canbe a lot of instability that
also comes from that.
And so what I tell folks is giveit 30 days before you make any
major life decisions.
Allow the sort of dust tosettle.
If it's still present at 30days, then you know, really
(30:06):
honor and acknowledge that andgo with it and take the time you
need to integrate and unpackand process.
You know what, what just cameup for you, right, there's no
rush to do another high doseceremony right away or even to
start microdosing.
What I typically tell folks isto start meditating.
You know, just sit in silencefor 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20
(30:29):
minutes.
It's literally the greatestthing that you can do.
I would, I would argue thegreatest practice that we have
accessible and available to us,and often psychedelics help us
tap into that, open that up,make that a habit, right, so
often what we'll even do withmicrodosing is we'll be like.
As part of this experience, wewant you to meditate 20 minutes
every day, you know, and thatcommitment has synergistic
(30:52):
effects with taking themicrodoses.
Jerry (30:56):
For those you know that are listening and stuff like
that, they're probably thinkingthat I don't know that I could
do this type of therapy because,like my, I'm going to get drug
tested on or it's againstagainst the law.
You know how do?
How do those people navigate?
Paul (31:11):
this Ketamine is legal, so that's where I would start
right.
So ketamine high doses is legal, and there's also a company
called Joyus Ketamine that doesmicrodoses of ketamine Very
affordable it's like 150 bucks amonth with someone who supports
you.
So I would say like, for thosewho are really concerned about
(31:32):
drug testing or maybe they workfor the government in some
capacity, then ketamine is legal.
You can.
You can use that immediately.
Probably good to let whoeveryour employer know if you think
that's relevant, but that's notan issue.
It's FDA approved at this point.
So that's all good.
Mdma will likely be approved bythe FDA this year, end of 2024.
They have finished phase threeclinical trials.
(31:54):
Mdma is looking to be aboutthree times as effective as
conventional psychiatrictreatments for PTSD.
70% of people do not no longerhave PTSD at the one year mark
after 12 weeks of MDMA assistedpsychotherapy, which is three
MDMA sessions with therapybefore, during, between and
(32:15):
after.
And so once that becomesmedically available if anyone is
listening has PTSD, you can.
Whether you're a veteran or afirst responder, you'd be able
to medically access that andhealth insurance will likely
cover it.
Outside of that, things likeayahuasca, which is the tea from
(32:36):
the Amazon that's been used forthousands of years for healing
that does not show up on a drugtest.
Dmt is too quick acting, lsdmight, so I wouldn't recommend
necessarily delving into LSDpsilocybin mushrooms, I think
only in a hair test will it showup, and it's legal in Colorado
or Oregon.
So there's a case to be madethat if someone is not in those
(32:58):
states and you travel to thosestates and legally work with
these psychedelics, that may befeasible.
Again, if you're working forthe federal government probably
not, yeah, but I would imaginewith many other sort of
government or official jobs,there may be more and more
wriggle room, especially if theclear case is given around
mental health.
Yeah, I think if it'scommunicated that this is about
(33:18):
mental health, the clinicalresearch is showing incredible
efficacy, and doing it in alegal location.
Some, some employers, somepeople may not be okay with that
, but you'd be surprised at howmany people are becoming open to
how psychedelics can bebeneficial for the mental health
of individuals.
Jerry (33:37):
Yeah, so, paul, we're like people that would want to
work with you, how can they findyou or how can they, you know,
learn more from you?
Yeah, so I'm on Instagram andTwitter, paul.
Paul (33:49):
Austin 3W Just send me a message Microdosing.
So Paul Austin 3W on Instagramor Twitter, send me a direct
message Microdosing.
If you're not on thoseplatforms, we're at.
Paul Austin dot co is mywebsite, personal website.
And then the third wave dot cois our educational platform,
(34:12):
where we have a directory ofproviders, we have educational
guides, we have mushroom growkits, we have micro dosing.
You know this group coaching formicro dosing.
We also have one to onecoaching.
So if someone is in, is lookingat this and interested in it
and want to work with acertified professional, we have
our own training program wherewe certified practitioners.
We can also pair people with acertified practitioner who will
guide them through a legalPsychedelic experience.
(34:37):
So that's also an option forlisteners.
Yeah, this is this is this isgreat.
I hope this is helpful anduseful.
I think we started to pack someof the aspects.
The one final kind of shout outthat I'll give that would be a
great.
Next sort of resource for folksto check out is out of Stanford
University.
They just published research onIbogaine for TBI and that
(35:02):
research shows that everyparticipant who went through the
program saw significant andsubstantial improvements in
their TBI traumatic brain injury.
So I just mentioned that islike for anyone who's listening
to this, who is a friend or afamily member, who has maybe
experienced that, tim Ferrissjust did a podcast with Nolan
Williams, who's the researcherwho led the out of Stanford, and
that's also an excellent paperand asset to do.
Jerry (35:28):
Yeah, before I let you go , I just thought of this, this
question you know you're talkingabout.
You know the 70s and stuff likethat.
These drugs that were werebeing used back then.
Paul (35:38):
Right, some of these these , these plant based medicines,
were being used back then, butthen slowly the government
turned them into being illegalbecause they were tied into the
Vietnam War protests and theycouldn't make protesting illegal
, but they could make what thedrugs that the people were using
illegal?
And LSD.
(36:00):
You know what?
The emphasis wasn't so much onmicrodosing then, it was
certainly much more on very highdoses, which, if you have a lot
of people who are tripping outon LSD, there's what they called
acid casualties, which peopledon't really come back if they
keep taking very high amounts ofLSD, and so there was both
(36:22):
political motivation and I thinksome people were just like
spooked.
At the end of the day it's like.
You know, we have a headpsychedelics in Western
consciousness since the Greeksreally 1700 years it's been and
so we had no context for it, wehad no understanding of what is
this, where is it coming from?
So I think this time around wehave elders who went through
(36:43):
that, who were initiated then,and they're helping to provide a
lot of guidance in the currenttimes to ensure that it's
successful this time around, andone of those elders is a guy
named Jim Fatiman who was aresearcher at Stanford in the
60s, and he he's the one whowrote a book and talked about
(37:03):
microdosing and sort of kickedoff this whole sort of
microdosing conversation.
Personally, I think it's justbrilliant because it's a way
that we can culturally integratepsychedelics.
People don't have to go forfull death and rebirth.
They can experience benefitsjust from taking very low doses,
which I think is a verypowerful like reframe.
(37:24):
Yeah people who are new topsychedelics.
Jerry (37:26):
Yeah, and that you also do retreats, right.
Paul (37:30):
So we have retreats as part of our training program for
practitioners and we also havea summit that we're doing in
Aspen and if folks areinterested they can go to just
psychedelicsummitcom.
So psychedelicsummitcom, andthat's in June, and we're
bringing together entrepreneurs,thought leaders, medical
doctors, practitioners,investors, philanthropists for a
(37:52):
week in an Aspen to talk aboutthe future of psychedelics.
And also we give we, as part ofthe event, donate, provide
microdoses of psilocybin,mushrooms and San Pedro, because
it's now legal in Colorado andso we can now legally provide
access to that.
Within this sort of groupretreat event format, the focus
(38:16):
is more on the keynotes and thewellness events and the music,
but microdosing is fun as well,and so it's nice to weave that
in.
Jerry (38:25):
Yeah, I'm excited for the future and I know a little bit
about it and a little bit aboutthe history and stuff like that,
and it could be a game changer.
As for the mental health crisisthat we're in, and we're
looking for answers everywhereand I think we know what some of
those answers are.
It's just the cultural shift toembrace those.
Paul (38:51):
Cultural shift, which I think psychedelics will help to
accelerate, and just the factthat people are looking for
answers, they're looking formodalities that work and that
really support them.
Psychedelics breath work,meditation, changes to diet,
exercise, sleep.
There's this massive emergenceright now of people really
taking their healing into theirown hands, and I think that's
(39:11):
very empowering and helps tocultivate a mindset of
sovereignty and freedom whichyou know, just like you, I'm an
American and I'm all aboutfreedom, baby.
Jerry (39:21):
Yeah, paul, thank you so much for being on.
Thank you for sharing yourknowledge.
I found it to be very, veryfascinating.
Paul (39:29):
Thank you, Jerry.
This was a ton of fun and folkshave any questions, Feel free
to reach out.
Jerry (39:36):
Awesome.
Thank you.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
If you know someone that wouldbe great on the show, please get
ahold of our host, jerry DeanLund, through the Instagram
handles at Jerry Fire and Fuelor at EnduringTheBadge Podcast,
(40:01):
also by visiting the show'swebsite,
enduringthebadgepodcastcom foradditional methods of contact
and up-to-date informationregarding the show.
Remember, the views in apainting expressed during the
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episode's guest.
Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge
Podcast.
I'm host Jerry Dean Lund and ifyou haven't already done so,
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And hey, while your phone's out, please give us a rating and
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(00:37):
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So if you would do that, Iwould appreciate that from the
bottom of my heart.
My very special guest today isPaul Austin.
How are you doing, paul?
Paul (00:57):
Hey Jerry, I am doing pretty well.
How are you doing?
Jerry (00:59):
I'm doing good.
Thank you so much for being ontoday.
Paul, can you introduceyourself to the audience?
Paul (01:06):
So I grew up in Grand Rapids, michigan.
That's where I'm from.
I spent the first 21 years ofmy life there and was raised in
a pretty traditional religiousfamilial structure Not
fundamentalist and notnecessarily conservative I'd
definitely like church everySunday for 18 years.
(01:26):
And when I was 16, I started toexperiment with cannabis and my
parents found out, weren't toohappy about that and that's like
an understatement.
And then, a few years afterthat, I started to explore the
world of psychedelics when I wasabout 19,.
Lsd and psilocybin, mushroomsOver the span of maybe 10 to 15
(01:50):
experiences.
They had a massive impact onthe path that I chose to follow
out of my early 20s.
And so, at the age of 21, Imoved to Turkey where I taught
English for a year and soonafter that lived in Thailand and
then proceeded to travel to, Ithink, over 70 countries in the
span of maybe 10 years.
So I've lived very nomadicallyand one of the places that I
(02:12):
lived was Budapest in Hungary in2015.
And we were talking about twofriends and I were talking about
psychedelics and how Joe Roganand Tim Ferriss and a lot of
people were starting to publishepisodes about it.
More clinical research wascoming out, this was being
reevaluated and we thought, oh,it'd be great to provide people
(02:32):
with research backed education,and so I started Third Wave as
an educational platform in 2015.
We've reached 25 million peoplethrough our educational content
, and the focus really is on theintentional and responsible use
of psychedelics, how these canhelp to heal trauma, but also
how they can help us to become,when I say, better leaders,
(02:55):
better lovers and betterlisteners.
And what I've found is in thelast, probably five years in
particular, there's been amassive upswing of interest in
these substances.
In fact, in 2023, they did asurvey research and the number
of people who had usedpsychedelics compared to 2019,
(03:18):
so just a four year time periodquadrupled Just a four X the
number of people worked withpsychedelics in 2023 compared to
2019.
And, further to that, 61% ofAmericans now support legal
psychedelic assisted therapy.
So this is really on thecutting edge.
The efficacy of it is quiteoutstanding and it's already
(03:39):
legal in Colorado and Oregon,and so there are places that you
can go in the United States andlegally work with these
psychedelics.
So that interest has beenfantastic.
It's been great just to witnesshow the sector has grown and
how this has helped so manypeople and yeah, I'm excited for
what the future can bring forpsychedelics.
Jerry (04:01):
Yeah, I'm excited too.
I'm excited to see them beingused in the first responder
world to help healing.
But, paul, to be honest, mostprobably the first responders
listening their experience withpsychedelics is on the negative
side, like when I responded topeople that were clearly high to
(04:26):
a level where they needed someserious help or police
intervention.
So when you say psychedelics, Ithink people go right to those
visions of those people.
But this is not what this isabout.
Paul (04:42):
Right?
Well, it's partly what it isabout.
I think it's important to evenacknowledge on the front end
that there's some risk to this,that if they're not done with a
guide or a therapist or apractitioner or friends that you
really trust, then things cango sideways.
This most commonly happens atfestivals, music festivals, but
it can also happen just innormal everyday life that,
(05:03):
especially if done at higherdoses, they can lead people in a
highly intoxicated state andthat at times very rarely but at
times can be dangerous, I think, for first responders in those
situations, even having theeducation of well, what do I do?
Because someone who's on cokeor amphetamine speed is going to
be much different than someonemost likely on psychedelics.
(05:23):
Usually someone in psychedelicsneeds to breathe lay down
potentially valium, xanax,benzodiazepine can be very
useful and helpful and justsomeone to help them, help
remind them they're not dead orthey're not going crazy, because
that tends to be the mostcommon sort of.
There's deep paranoia that canarise if there's not a safe
(05:46):
setting for these experiences.
But I think what's interestingabout psychedelics is, unlike a
lot of these more let's say,heroin or even fentanyl there's
no way to physically overdose onpsychedelics.
So even if you were to take5,000 micrograms of LSD, which
is 50 times the normal doselevel, not even a micro dose,
(06:08):
it's about much more than, butabout 50 times the normal dose
level, I mean someone would havea very deep, significant
experience, but physiologicallythey would end up perfectly safe
and fine.
No one has ever died fromtaking the sort of physical
ingestion of the classicspsychedelic, psilocybin, lsd and
also mescaline, which is in inSan Pedro so.
(06:33):
But psychologically obviouslyit can create a level of
instability, and so that's why,even when we started the third
wave, we advise start low, goslow.
You can always take more, youcan't necessarily take less.
We really put microdosing frontand center, and I've led with
that for a long time, becausemicrodosing appears to have a
(06:54):
lot of the same clinical andphysiological benefits as higher
doses, but there's lessinherent risk for, let's say,
self medication because, as somany people are hearing about
psychedelics and because thelegal landscape it's developing
quickly but it's still behindculture there are a lot of
people who are just taking inhealing into their own hands and
(07:17):
sometimes they don't know rightfrom wrong, they don't know
best practices, they don't maybehave resources available, maybe
they're in a town or small citywhere there aren't people who
could help support them.
So microdosing, I think, as alens to onboard into some of
this deeper work, is a great,let's say, harm reduction or
(07:41):
educational framework.
Now I will say that and we'llprobably dive into this deeper A
lot of first responders, a lotof military, have found
substantial benefits fromworking with psychedelics and
specifically within a clinicalframework whether that's
Ibogaine, 5meo, psilocybin,mushrooms, even ayahuasca, in
(08:03):
retreat centers and there'salmost always a medical doctor
there, there are trainedpractitioners, because much of
the trauma that military andfirst responders have experience
is quite intense, and so whenyou go into these deeper
psychedelic states, the materialthat you have to work with has
(08:23):
a high charge.
There's a lot of energy behindit.
Usually sadness or anger orgrief can be one as well.
So how was that process?
How was that brought up?
That's all part of theimportance of facilitation when
working with these very deepstates.
Jerry (08:43):
Yeah, let's dive down into that a little bit, but
let's start.
What is microdosing?
What is microdosing?
Paul (08:49):
Yeah.
So microdosing is taking a verylow dose of the psychedelic.
I would call it asub-intoxicating dose, meaning
you can still navigate youreveryday reality, you're not
intoxicated.
People notice that when theymicrodose two, three times a
week for maybe 30 days or 60days, it helps them to wean off
certain psychiatric medications.
(09:10):
It helps them to have a bettermood, more energy.
It has a really strongantidepressant effect.
People notice they're a littleless reactive, they're a little
bit more present, their mood isa little bit better.
I would say 70% to 80% of peoplehave this experience.
(09:30):
This is the most commonexperience.
For some people it makes themquite tired.
These are usually people whohave been running an overdrive
for too long and need to sleepmore.
When they start microdosingthey tend to have this fatigue
that comes on.
There are other folks who startmicrodosing and there's stuff
that's emotions and othermaterial that starts to get
(09:51):
unpacked and processed, which iswhy not in every protocol that
I've done, but in some protocolsI've done it with a therapist.
I'll take a low dose ofmushrooms.
I'll go to the therapist for anhour, take about 200 milligrams
of psilocybin, which is about amicrodose.
I would unpack some of thatmaterial there.
(10:12):
I do think it can be helpfulthat even when taking these low
doses if you're doing them onceor twice or three times a week
to have a coach or a therapist,a psychologist, a practitioner
who can help you as you start tounpack that Ideally preferably
someone who has education andawareness about psychedelics,
because they're much differentthan the classic psychiatric
(10:33):
medications.
Thankfully, more coaches, moretherapists, more medical
professionals are training inthis.
We even have a directory atthird wave of clinics, retreat
therapists and providers thatfolks can check out.
The most commonly microdosesubstances are LSD and
psilocybin mushrooms.
Psilocybin is more, I would say, emotionally therapeutic.
(10:56):
Lsd is more about cognitiveenhancement, cognitive
performance.
People find that with LSD,twice a week is sufficient.
With psilocybin mushrooms itcould be twice or three times a
week.
What I usually recommend is totake a day off in between each
microdose.
Psychedelics have a tolerancewindow, a short-term tolerance
(11:20):
window, about 48 hours.
It allows your serotonin systemto reset.
Then you can basically do it onalternating days, even at third
wave.
I would say folks are curiousabout this or they're interested
in this.
We've started to run onlinecoaching, group coaching, like a
45-day microdosing experiencewhere we guide folks through two
(11:43):
to three times a week,microdosing protocol with
coaching, group coaching, aworkbook, an assessment form all
these aspects that help peopleto do it safely and with
guidance.
Basically, it's part of thatprocess.
Jerry (11:59):
Yeah, what's taking place in, I guess, the body and the
mind when people are takingthese microdoses?
Paul (12:07):
Two core things are what I usually point to.
One is the impact onneuroplasticity.
It's helping to make the brainmore plastic, more malleable.
What happens, especially whenwe've experienced trauma, had
trauma physical trauma, but alsoemotional trauma is there are
(12:27):
parts of our brain thatbasically shut down.
There's neuronal connectionsthat die off.
This is also related todementia and Alzheimer's.
If that happens earlier in life, we can enter a more depressed,
rigid state of anxiety andconstriction.
What psychedelics do is theyespecially at high doses, but
(12:48):
this could also apply, and doesalso apply, to microdosing.
At high doses they basicallyturn your brain into what it was
like when it was five years old.
It's much more plastic.
All those neuronal connectionsthat died off get reactivated.
It's like Jesus rising from thedead.
Psychedelics resurrect thepathways that we've forgotten.
(13:09):
That has a substantial andimmediate effect on depression,
on mood, on our ability to learn, our ability to process emotion
.
The neuroplastic element ofpsychedelics, particularly with
the way that it helps toreactivate these old connections
(13:31):
in the brain, can be veryhelpful.
Then the second thing is whatit does to the amygdala.
The amygdala is this littlealmond-shaped, tiny part of your
brain.
It's the oldest part of yourbrain.
They call it the reptilianbrain.
It's your fear response center,especially if we've experienced
PTSD.
Whenever we try to recall thatmemory or that traumatic
(13:52):
experience, the amygdalatightens up, it constricts,
because it's afraid to processthe grief and depth of the
difficulty of what happened.
When we take a psychedelic, itdown regulates that fear
response.
It's like you're swathing theamygdala in fuzzy silk, alpaca
(14:17):
wool I love alpaca wool, it'sthe best.
You're cloaking it in that andit softens it.
All of a sudden, things that mayhave been difficult to discuss,
to talk about, can come to thesurface and they can be unpacked
and they can be reintegrated.
That is really the term thatallows us then to confront
(14:39):
things both in our past but alsoin our present, with more
courage.
Usually, the two main benefits,sort of outcomes I point to are
your brain's going to behealthier and you're going to
have more courage to do thedifficult things that you know
have to happen but you could behesitant to take action on.
That can be trauma healing.
That can be difficult,conversations with loved ones.
(15:02):
That can be committing tomeditation every day.
There are certain things thatrequire us to be more to sort of
face our demons.
Psychedelics seem to help a lotwith that process.
They seem to help a lot withhealing things that are
(15:24):
subconscious and are unconscious, that are creating moments of
challenge and difficulty in ourpresent situation.
Jerry (15:35):
So would someone like that's been in the first
responder world for a while andhas been pretty shut down with
their emotions and stuff, couldthey take this microdose and
then could they still withholdthat information or still not do
the processing?
Does that make sense?
When I'm trying to explain?
Paul (15:55):
Yeah, so I think the key here is autonomous choice, right
or willful participation.
Jerry (16:00):
Yeah.
Paul (16:00):
So someone is like I'm committed to this, I'm on board
with this, I'm interested inresults.
These are some of the goals andthe objectives that I have.
This is what I want to explore.
That direction, that focus canthen be amplified by the lower
dosing or even the high dosepsychedelic worth.
But it really starts from there.
It really starts from a deepdesire to change and want change
(16:21):
and want, I would say, better,and not only want better, but
expect better, like, have ahigher sort of expectation for
ourselves that like no, there's.
I have choice in this, I haveagency, I have autonomy.
How things happen isn't howthings have to be, and
psychedelics, I think, reallyhelp us to remember that, to
(16:41):
wake up to that.
So many times we, you know we,life beats us down in many ways
and what psychedelics tend to dois they create an energy, like
an optimistic energy that wehave the capacity to make new
things happen.
So I think that the willingnessto commit matters, and then the
(17:02):
dosage matters, right, and whothe coach or practitioner or
therapist is, because if you dothis by yourself, that has, I
would say, one level of efficacy.
It's hard sometimes with lowerdosing to know am I doing the
dose correctly and you know if Icalibrated it appropriately,
should I take more or should Itake less?
So some group coaching,guidance, education can be
(17:26):
helpful on that.
I've also published a bookabout this called Mastering
Microdosing, which if folks arereaders they can check out and
then and then the third onewould be do it so you have by
yourself in a group or one onone right with a coach or a
therapist, that can really, andthere's some onboarding in terms
of dose level calibration.
But once you have the doselevel and the frequency, then
(17:48):
it's really about what can youunpack in that environment?
Jerry (17:52):
right.
Paul (17:53):
And looking at it as, yeah , a therapeutic or coaching lens
, that the low dose of thepsychedelic is going to make it
easier to change and adapt andgrow.
But the work still has to bedone.
You know, the fears have to befaced and the commitment has to
(18:13):
be made if people want to seeoutcomes and results.
And that's true for many things, and what I've experienced with
psychedelics is they're reallyhelpful allies in the process,
like just the taking themedicine itself.
It does somethingneurologically, it does
something even spiritually athigher doses that just, for
whatever reason, makes thisprocess easier for a lot of
(18:37):
folks.
Jerry (18:40):
And what so maybe listeners are more familiar with
, like ketamine and thatreaction that they have with
that.
How is this different from fromthese other?
Taking these other medications?
Paul (18:55):
So ketamine is the most commonly used anesthetic in the
world.
It's probably, I would imagine,first responders EMT know and
have even potentially usedketamine.
About 25 years ago peoplestarted to notice that ketamine
as an anesthetic also had theseantidepressant effects.
(19:15):
And ketamine is currently legaland available pretty much
everywhere.
You need a prescribingpractitioner, but it is the most
widely used psychedelicmedication today.
People do consider it to bepsychedelic because of the
impact that it has on the brain.
Ketamine is much shorter lastingthan psilocybin and DMT
(19:38):
dimethyltryptamine, which is inayahuasca.
It's about 90 minutes, maybe aslong as two hours.
It's much more active onglutamate, whereas psilocybin is
more active on serotonin.
Glutamate is tied to learningquickly and adapting.
(19:58):
It's also tied to the abilityfor the brain to heal itself,
what we call dendritic sprouting.
Ketamine is more addictive thanpsilocybin.
It has to be used with somelevel of caution.
It's quite common in the clubscene as well.
For that reason, and like theother psychedelics, it's super
(20:21):
safe, even at high levels.
So even there was this paper notpaper, but an article published
about Matthew Perry's death,about saying he died from
ketamine like an overdose ofketamine.
The toxicology reported thiswhen in fact, the amount of
(20:42):
ketamine in a system.
Had he been in a safeenvironment, it would have put
him into a disassociated state,but by no means would he have
died.
He just would have been in adeeply disassociated state.
He died because he was in adeeply disassociated state and
drowned, and so the importantthing to emphasize with
psychedelics, with ketamine inparticular, is don't do it in
(21:06):
water.
You'd be surprised how manypeople will take hot baths and
do ketamine and it can lead.
I've heard of more than a fewpeople dying that way.
Ketamine in and of itself isquite safe if done in a
responsible setting, and theoutcomes are significant.
I would say 70% of people seeimprovements in depression,
(21:30):
improvements in mood, when theywork with ketamine, and it's
about, I would say, the efficacyis almost twice that of
conventional antidepressants atthis point in time.
And the thing that ketamine isreally really good for is
suicidality in particular, notjust a depression.
If someone is suicidal andyou're looking for a medication
that will have almost animmediate response on that,
(21:51):
ketamine is probably the bestthing that we currently have
available for it.
Jerry (21:56):
That's interesting.
My ketamine experiences.
I was in a chair and I was likeI don't know how I could have
got up and even move and walkaround, let alone have the
desire to take a bath orsomething like that.
It seems strange that someonewould want to take this and be
out in the public.
Paul (22:18):
Yeah, and or even because you did, I imagine an IV level
dose I did.
Jerry (22:26):
I just did intramuscular.
Paul (22:28):
You did intramuscular Okay .
Jerry (22:29):
Yeah.
Paul (22:29):
Intramuscular, so probably even more intense than IV.
Ketamine can also be a powder,so people insufflate it or
they'll have.
You probably did upwards of 200milligrams, whereas something
like 25 to 50 will just put youinto a slight trance state but
you can still move.
So it kind of creates thisobserver perspective and
(22:52):
mentality.
So a lot of people have it, getprescribed it.
They have it at home, they willuse it at home and if you're
experienced, you know whatyou're doing.
Fine, more power to you.
But a lot of these people arequite new at working with
ketamine and psychedelics.
So it's important that certainI would say precautions are put
into place if folks want to useit.
Jerry (23:12):
Yeah, I personally would never want to take on that my
own personal responsibility.
You know, to do a low doseketamine or to do something.
It's just the way it affectedme that I don't know that I
would want to to expose myselfto those types of situations.
Paul (23:30):
Yeah, it's a very vulnerable state.
Yeah, a very vulnerable state,absolutely.
Jerry (23:35):
And so the microdosing that you're talking about over
30 days.
How do I still function, howdoes it still go to work, how do
I still carry on a normal life?
Paul (23:49):
Yeah, what I tell folks is the first day you do it,
preferably on a weekend, whereyou don't necessarily have a ton
of responsibilities.
You don't have to go to a job,drive a car to your job, there's
not a lot of things happening.
Try it first on a weekend.
The key is finding the doselevel that again, it allows you
to navigate everyday realitywithout having no intoxication.
(24:13):
So you notice, your sense oftouch and smell and even sight
is enhanced.
You may be a little bit moreemotionally open, a little bit.
You might be checking yourphone less, less reactive, but
you're not intoxicated to thepoint where you can't navigate
your everyday existence.
So usually what we tell folksis spend a week or two in the
front end it could be a coupleof weekends in a row calibrating
(24:35):
the dose level appropriately,finding what your sweet spot is.
For most people it's 100milligrams of psilocybin and 10
micrograms of LSD.
But there are things thatimpact that, like, if someone
has a history of SSRI use,typically they need quite a bit
more.
If someone is older and they're60s or 70s, typically they
might need a little bit more.
If someone is highly neuroticor has, let's say,
(24:59):
treatment-resistant depression,they may need a little bit more.
So there are variables andfactors, but typically what I
tell people is 100 milligrams ofpsilocybin, 10 micrograms of
LSD.
Start low, go slow.
You can sort of slightlycalibrate up until you find the
dose level that's appropriatefor you and then enjoy.
Like some people maybe hesitant, for example with driving what
(25:23):
I would say is yeah, youdefinitely want to know how this
works.
You definitely want to know thedose amount that's correct for
you before you ever get in heavyoperate.
Heavy machinery is a goodrecommendation.
I and this may be irresponsibleof me to say such a thing, but
when I was microdosing with LSD,it was taking 20 micrograms of
(25:44):
LSD and driving a scooter aroundThailand.
This was like 10 years ago whenI was first microdosing and
what I noticed is it helped mewith coordination, it helped me
with vision, it helped me withnoticing things in my
peripherals and in fact in the70s a lot of extreme sport
athletes talked about low dosesof LSD as like the thing that
(26:07):
got you ahead, the thing thathelped you to just be in a
little bit more flow, like kindof see things before they happen
, be super in touch with yourbody.
So that's why I've talked somuch about low doses of LSD as
performance enhancing, because Ithink if there's a relationship
established, you understand thedose level that's appropriate
for you.
You kind of have a sense thatthe lay of the land doing it at
(26:29):
very low doses, I've foundespecially with LSD.
I mean with mushrooms as well,but with LSD I'm less fatigued,
I have more energy.
I mean, as an example, justyesterday I took a microdose of
LSD.
I had flown from New York toLisbon.
I got like four hours of shittysleep on the airplane.
I arrived I had an espresso andthen I took a gummy that had a
little bit of LSD in it and forthe rest of the day I felt good,
(26:52):
like it helped.
So yeah, caveat being don't trythis at home.
Folks Learn a little bit moreabout psychedelics.
I've been doing them for 15years, so I kind of know my way
around better than someone who'sjust starting out.
Jerry (27:08):
Yeah, To go back to those , the people that need a little
bit higher dose, is that becausemaybe their brains are not like
the neuroplasticity is a littlebit more difficult to get?
Paul (27:21):
Yeah, well, it goes back to what I mentioned before, this
dendritic sprouting, right?
So when we have depression,when there's been dramatic brain
injury, when we're older in age, even when we've utilized SSRIs
in the past, it impacts thatdendritic sprouting, it impacts
those neuronal connections andso to get those back online, you
got to.
You know it's like a jumpstartfor the car.
(27:43):
You got to supercharge it alittle bit, you got to get
energy moving, which is why alot of people who maybe have
depression or TBI or PTSD,microdosing is a great way for
them to wade their feed in.
It's a great way for them toget a sense of the landscape,
but typically they find the mostbenefit from doing a high dose
of a psychedelic, and that'swhat a lot of the clinical
(28:05):
research shows as well.
So microdosing, greatonboarding, but high doses of
ketamine, ayahuasca, high dosesof psilocybin, mushrooms, with a
guide, practitioner, therapist,coach, someone who can support
you, especially the first five,six, 10 times you do it.
That's really important.
Jerry (28:22):
So is this something that you like?
Once you start, you need tocontinue doing, or it's more
like you want to continue to doit because you're seeing the
benefits?
Paul (28:33):
All of the above.
I know plenty of folks who havejust had one or two or three
high dose experiences.
They're good, they're set,they're solid, gives them a lot
to unpack over the next severalyears In some cases.
There are some folks who, youknow, do it more as like a
maintenance modality.
So just like you'd go to thedentist every six months to get
(28:54):
your teeth clean, people will door work with a high dose just
to sort of, you know, reset theroom and clear out the
neurological garbage and have anemotional reset and let go of
some emotions and whatnot.
So that, I would say, isbecoming more common.
I would say the biggestchallenge right now is a lot of
these insights that weexperience or feelings that we
(29:17):
experience when we work withhigh doses of psychedelics.
It's difficult to integratethose with how we live the rest
of our lives.
Jerry (29:25):
Right.
Paul (29:25):
And so a lot of the challenges.
Ok, I've had this mysticalexperience with this beautiful,
profound experience.
You know I experienceunconditional love and you know
I was able to process thesadness and grief and anger that
I've been under the surface forso long.
And, oh, I also want to quit myjob and maybe move and divorce
(29:46):
my partner.
And you know there's, there canbe a lot of instability that
also comes from that.
And so what I tell folks is giveit 30 days before you make any
major life decisions.
Allow the sort of dust tosettle.
If it's still present at 30days, then you know, really
(30:06):
honor and acknowledge that andgo with it and take the time you
need to integrate and unpackand process.
You know what, what just cameup for you, right, there's no
rush to do another high doseceremony right away or even to
start microdosing.
What I typically tell folks isto start meditating.
You know, just sit in silencefor 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20
(30:29):
minutes.
It's literally the greatestthing that you can do.
I would, I would argue thegreatest practice that we have
accessible and available to us,and often psychedelics help us
tap into that, open that up,make that a habit, right, so
often what we'll even do withmicrodosing is we'll be like.
As part of this experience, wewant you to meditate 20 minutes
every day, you know, and thatcommitment has synergistic
(30:52):
effects with taking themicrodoses.
Jerry (30:56):
For those you know that are listening and stuff like
that, they're probably thinkingthat I don't know that I could
do this type of therapy because,like my, I'm going to get drug
tested on or it's againstagainst the law.
You know how do?
How do those people navigate?
Paul (31:11):
this Ketamine is legal, so that's where I would start
right.
So ketamine high doses is legal, and there's also a company
called Joyus Ketamine that doesmicrodoses of ketamine Very
affordable it's like 150 bucks amonth with someone who supports
you.
So I would say like, for thosewho are really concerned about
(31:32):
drug testing or maybe they workfor the government in some
capacity, then ketamine is legal.
You can.
You can use that immediately.
Probably good to let whoeveryour employer know if you think
that's relevant, but that's notan issue.
It's FDA approved at this point.
So that's all good.
Mdma will likely be approved bythe FDA this year, end of 2024.
They have finished phase threeclinical trials.
(31:54):
Mdma is looking to be aboutthree times as effective as
conventional psychiatrictreatments for PTSD.
70% of people do not no longerhave PTSD at the one year mark
after 12 weeks of MDMA assistedpsychotherapy, which is three
MDMA sessions with therapybefore, during, between and
(32:15):
after.
And so once that becomesmedically available if anyone is
listening has PTSD, you can.
Whether you're a veteran or afirst responder, you'd be able
to medically access that andhealth insurance will likely
cover it.
Outside of that, things likeayahuasca, which is the tea from
(32:36):
the Amazon that's been used forthousands of years for healing
that does not show up on a drugtest.
Dmt is too quick acting, lsdmight, so I wouldn't recommend
necessarily delving into LSDpsilocybin mushrooms, I think
only in a hair test will it showup, and it's legal in Colorado
or Oregon.
So there's a case to be madethat if someone is not in those
(32:58):
states and you travel to thosestates and legally work with
these psychedelics, that may befeasible.
Again, if you're working forthe federal government probably
not, yeah, but I would imaginewith many other sort of
government or official jobs,there may be more and more
wriggle room, especially if theclear case is given around
mental health.
Yeah, I think if it'scommunicated that this is about
(33:18):
mental health, the clinicalresearch is showing incredible
efficacy, and doing it in alegal location.
Some, some employers, somepeople may not be okay with that
, but you'd be surprised at howmany people are becoming open to
how psychedelics can bebeneficial for the mental health
of individuals.
Jerry (33:37):
Yeah, so, paul, we're like people that would want to
work with you, how can they findyou or how can they, you know,
learn more from you?
Yeah, so I'm on Instagram andTwitter, paul.
Paul (33:49):
Austin 3W Just send me a message Microdosing.
So Paul Austin 3W on Instagramor Twitter, send me a direct
message Microdosing.
If you're not on thoseplatforms, we're at.
Paul Austin dot co is mywebsite, personal website.
And then the third wave dot cois our educational platform,
(34:12):
where we have a directory ofproviders, we have educational
guides, we have mushroom growkits, we have micro dosing.
You know this group coaching formicro dosing.
We also have one to onecoaching.
So if someone is in, is lookingat this and interested in it
and want to work with acertified professional, we have
our own training program wherewe certified practitioners.
We can also pair people with acertified practitioner who will
guide them through a legalPsychedelic experience.
(34:37):
So that's also an option forlisteners.
Yeah, this is this is this isgreat.
I hope this is helpful anduseful.
I think we started to pack someof the aspects.
The one final kind of shout outthat I'll give that would be a
great.
Next sort of resource for folksto check out is out of Stanford
University.
They just published research onIbogaine for TBI and that
(35:02):
research shows that everyparticipant who went through the
program saw significant andsubstantial improvements in
their TBI traumatic brain injury.
So I just mentioned that islike for anyone who's listening
to this, who is a friend or afamily member, who has maybe
experienced that, tim Ferrissjust did a podcast with Nolan
Williams, who's the researcherwho led the out of Stanford, and
that's also an excellent paperand asset to do.
Jerry (35:28):
Yeah, before I let you go , I just thought of this, this
question you know you're talkingabout.
You know the 70s and stuff likethat.
These drugs that were werebeing used back then.
Paul (35:38):
Right, some of these these , these plant based medicines,
were being used back then, butthen slowly the government
turned them into being illegalbecause they were tied into the
Vietnam War protests and theycouldn't make protesting illegal
, but they could make what thedrugs that the people were using
illegal?
And LSD.
(36:00):
You know what?
The emphasis wasn't so much onmicrodosing then, it was
certainly much more on very highdoses, which, if you have a lot
of people who are tripping outon LSD, there's what they called
acid casualties, which peopledon't really come back if they
keep taking very high amounts ofLSD, and so there was both
(36:22):
political motivation and I thinksome people were just like
spooked.
At the end of the day it's like.
You know, we have a headpsychedelics in Western
consciousness since the Greeksreally 1700 years it's been and
so we had no context for it, wehad no understanding of what is
this, where is it coming from?
So I think this time around wehave elders who went through
(36:43):
that, who were initiated then,and they're helping to provide a
lot of guidance in the currenttimes to ensure that it's
successful this time around, andone of those elders is a guy
named Jim Fatiman who was aresearcher at Stanford in the
60s, and he he's the one whowrote a book and talked about
(37:03):
microdosing and sort of kickedoff this whole sort of
microdosing conversation.
Personally, I think it's justbrilliant because it's a way
that we can culturally integratepsychedelics.
People don't have to go forfull death and rebirth.
They can experience benefitsjust from taking very low doses,
which I think is a verypowerful like reframe.
(37:24):
Yeah people who are new topsychedelics.
Jerry (37:26):
Yeah, and that you also do retreats, right.
Paul (37:30):
So we have retreats as part of our training program for
practitioners and we also havea summit that we're doing in
Aspen and if folks areinterested they can go to just
psychedelicsummitcom.
So psychedelicsummitcom, andthat's in June, and we're
bringing together entrepreneurs,thought leaders, medical
doctors, practitioners,investors, philanthropists for a
(37:52):
week in an Aspen to talk aboutthe future of psychedelics.
And also we give we, as part ofthe event, donate, provide
microdoses of psilocybin,mushrooms and San Pedro, because
it's now legal in Colorado andso we can now legally provide
access to that.
Within this sort of groupretreat event format, the focus
(38:16):
is more on the keynotes and thewellness events and the music,
but microdosing is fun as well,and so it's nice to weave that
in.
Jerry (38:25):
Yeah, I'm excited for the future and I know a little bit
about it and a little bit aboutthe history and stuff like that,
and it could be a game changer.
As for the mental health crisisthat we're in, and we're
looking for answers everywhereand I think we know what some of
those answers are.
It's just the cultural shift toembrace those.
Paul (38:51):
Cultural shift, which I think psychedelics will help to
accelerate, and just the factthat people are looking for
answers, they're looking formodalities that work and that
really support them.
Psychedelics breath work,meditation, changes to diet,
exercise, sleep.
There's this massive emergenceright now of people really
taking their healing into theirown hands, and I think that's
(39:11):
very empowering and helps tocultivate a mindset of
sovereignty and freedom whichyou know, just like you, I'm an
American and I'm all aboutfreedom, baby.
Jerry (39:21):
Yeah, paul, thank you so much for being on.
Thank you for sharing yourknowledge.
I found it to be very, veryfascinating.
Paul (39:29):
Thank you, Jerry.
This was a ton of fun and folkshave any questions, Feel free
to reach out.
Jerry (39:36):
Awesome.
Thank you.
Thanks again for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewthe show wherever you access
your podcast.
If you know someone that wouldbe great on the show, please get
ahold of our host, jerry DeanLund, through the Instagram
handles at Jerry Fire and Fuelor at EnduringTheBadge Podcast,
(40:01):
also by visiting the show'swebsite,
enduringthebadgepodcastcom foradditional methods of contact
and up-to-date informationregarding the show.
Remember, the views in apainting expressed during the
show solely represent those ofour host and the current
episode's guest.
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