April 26, 2024 • 39 mins
Join Jen and Franklin Energy's Lee Ann Head and Elizabeth Turnbull as they detail a surprisingly complex suite of customer attitudes towards managed charging based on their recent research. This episode offers a deep dive into how consumer attitudes are shifting on managed charging solutions and how we as an industry will need to reexamine our approaches based on consumer attitudes.
Discover demographic shifts and consumer preferences, key trends (such as the rise of female and older EV buyers), and dissect how we might revisit our managed charging plans based on their consumer research.
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Episode Transcript
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Jen Szaro, AESP (00:07):
Welcome back to the Energy Beat podcast.
It's springtime here in Floridaand it's a time when car owners
wash off the dust and grime fortheir winter roads and start
planning those weekend roadtrips.
Today's podcast focuses on whatEV customers and their likely
buyers think aboututility-managed charging
programs.
We'll be speaking with twoexperts today from Franklin
(00:29):
Energy Leanne, head Director ofEmerging Solutions, and
Elizabeth Turnbull, director ofMarket Development for
Transportation Electrification.
Using AESP's Electric VehicleDriver Experience Framework as a
guide, these experts will betalking about their EV-man
managed charging voice of thecustomer research and diving
into some surprising takeawaysthat paint a much more nuanced
(00:52):
and complex ecosystem formanaged charging in the future.
So with that, let's get started.
Why don't you start, leanne, bytelling us a little bit about
yourself?
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy (01:02):
I have been in the energy
industry for over 20 years.
I did a lot of consumerinsights and research for a
consulting firm for utilitiesall over the country Also some
energy efficient productmanufacturers as well and ended
up at a utility as an energyefficiency solutions manager.
And then I've been at FranklinEnergy for five years and I've
done a variety of things.
I was a product manager and nowI'm a solutions manager,
(01:28):
focused primarily on ourtransportation electrification
solutions and also working as aside gig on our state energy
office solutions.
Jen Szaro, AESP (01:40):
Love it.
Very exciting work.
All right, Elizabeth, tell me alittle bit about yourself as
well and what you are currentlyfocused on for Franklin Energy.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (01:48):
Yeah , thanks, jen.
Well, as you said, I'm thedirector of market development
for transportationelectrification here at Franklin
Energy, understand the EVmarket and the regulatory
landscape in which all of thiswork is unfolding, and then work
with utilities around thecountry to support the design
(02:12):
and then implementation of theirEV programs.
My background includes a decadeof experience at investor-owned
electric utilities here on theWest Coast.
At those utilities I wasinvolved in designing, launching
and implementing EV programseverything from residential
managed charging to fleetinfrastructure to utility-owned
(02:36):
and operated DC fast charging.
So a lot of different programexperience across the whole
breadth of what happens atutilities with EVs.
Jen Szaro, AESP (02:45):
Well, it's perfect that you're here then
today to talk with us a littlebit about how important it is to
get the EV customer and fleetowner experience right.
Clearly you've had someexperience with both residential
markets and fleets, and so Ithink that's going to be really
helpful to the conversationtoday.
So, talking about EVDX, our EVDriver Experience Initiative, a
(03:08):
lot of this focuses aroundensuring in an existing time of
use or manage charging programor even just use public charging
(03:29):
stations.
So just making sure that thatexperience is consumer centric,
helping to build awareness andknowledge about electric
vehicles as well in a positivelight, and making sure that the
charging experience is a goodone so that we don't create
detractors here, especially inthe late, early adopter phase
when we're getting ready to goto early majority.
So if you want to learn moreabout EVDX, you can go to asporg
(03:54):
forward, slash EVDX and youknow.
Speaking of charging, elizabeth, tell me a little bit more
about the differences betweenlevel one, level two and fast
charging for our audience.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (04:06):
Yeah , sure thing.
So level one charging istypically done with a cable that
comes with the light dutyvehicle and I think a lot of the
research and things we're goingto be talking about today
really are about light dutyvehicles owned by what utilities
think of as residentialcustomers.
So a lot of those cars comewith that level one cable and it
(04:29):
just plugs into a standard 110volt outlet.
So this level one charginghappens most commonly at home.
It could also happen in someparking garages and other
creative ways.
I certainly have run a levelone charging cable out the
window of an Airbnb, but I don'trecommend using an extension
cord.
I should always add that forlevel one.
(04:49):
So it adds about three or fourmiles of range per hour of time
that the car is plugged in.
So it's pretty slow, but if youcan plug in for 10 hours
overnight you can get 30 to 40miles of range.
Jen Szaro, AESP (05:01):
So I hear most plug-in owners.
If they have a hybrid plug-invehicle, it's a great option,
right?
So my understanding is youdon't always need to have a
level two or access to fastcharging if you have a plug-in
electric vehicle that isn'tfully electric.
Is that what you're kind ofseeing in the market?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (05:19):
Yeah , I think that's definitely the
case.
I think there are reasons thatconsumers want level two beyond
just the charging time.
But I think, as's definitelythe case, I think there are
reasons that consumers wantlevel two beyond just the
charging time, but I think asfar as just getting the car
charged, particularly forplug-in hybrids, level one can
work.
Honestly, jen, I was an EVdriver for six years before I
got a level two charger and Iwas able to charge two vehicles
(05:40):
on level one for a long time.
So I think, depending on yourdriving habits and the use case,
it can be a really goodapplication and it works really
nicely for folks who are rentingor who live in multifamily or,
for whatever reason, can't ordon't want to install a level
two charger, and so I'm a bigfan of level one.
(06:01):
I think we need to be talkingmore about it.
But I also understand why.
You know there are reasons whypeople want level two, and you
know one of those reasons is thefaster charge.
Right.
It gets you about 25 miles ofrange for every hour that you're
plugged in.
It's more expensive, right.
The chargers in a residentialsetting cost probably $400 to
$700.
And then you've got to do allthe right wiring and have panel
(06:24):
capacity.
But many of those level twochargers are networked,
typically over Wi-Fi inresidential settings or over
cellular networks in commercialsettings, so then that can be
controlled or accessed by aphone app or a back-end platform
.
So level two offers not just ahigher charging speed but a
little bit more control to theperson who owns the charger.
Jen Szaro, AESP (06:49):
And I know many utilities now have incentive
programs for using a level twocharger that has intelligence
that you can tap into.
So I think that could beanother great incentive.
And I know having moved fromnot having level two charging in
my home to having it for ourfully electric car was night and
day.
It was wonderful.
I was so excited when we gotours installed.
(07:10):
Now I do understand that noteveryone can easily install it.
If you don't have a singlefamily home or a service upgrade
might be cost prohibitive.
You know that might prevent youfrom even purchasing the car in
some cases, I would imagine.
But I know there are othersolutions like DC fast charging,
maybe in the community.
So maybe talk to us a littlebit about DC fast charging as
(07:31):
well and how that's being usedas a solution for EV drivers.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (07:36):
Yeah , absolutely so.
Dc fast charging.
You know the reason we call it.
That is, it takes AC power fromthe grid and converts it to DC
power, which is what the batteryuses.
It can range from 30 kilowattson the low end to 350 kilowatts
on the high end, so that's likea 10x difference in how fast the
car could charge, depending onthe fast charger.
(07:59):
These chargers are reallyexpensive.
They can cost, you know,$250,000.
So this typically only happensin public.
Or you know, if you have a busfleet or something like that,
you might have DC fast chargingthere.
But you know this isn't for forresidential settings.
Jen Szaro, AESP (08:17):
And in some cases they can take a dedicated
substation to install, correct?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin (08:21):
I mean probably not for a single
one DC fast charger, but youstart getting into charging
plazas.
10 to 20 fast chargers yeah,that's a lot of power, right?
Big draw If there's 350kilowatts each.
Jen Szaro, AESP (08:37):
I'm always driving by the Tesla plazas with
the Tesla chargers and there'slike a line too with the waiting
to get into those.
You know, there's like a linetoo with the waiting to get into
those Never seems to be quitethe same line for the other
types of vehicles charging theirvehicles.
So I know I have a Kia EV6,which I adore, and it charges
very quickly, which I love aboutit.
It can take high voltage.
(08:58):
But there's also that challengethat not all cars can charge at
the same rate.
On DC fast chargers, right,even if it's stated that it
might be a 350 kW charger, forinstance, a Nissan Leaf might
only be able to still charge at50 kW tops Is that right?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (09:16):
Yeah , that's exactly right, jen.
So when you're looking at carsit's worth looking at how fast
they can charge.
You know it has to be not justthe charger but also the car
that can charge at that speed.
I would say for sort of thefaster ended chargers and new
vehicles, a driver can probablyget about 10 miles of range for
(09:36):
every minute that they'replugged in right.
So you stop for 10 minutes, youcould get 100 miles, and for
those of us who've been drivingthe cars that charge slower,
those new charging speeds arepretty spicy and fun.
Jen Szaro, AESP (09:49):
Oh yeah, we took our EV6 on a road trip out
of state and it was just magicalto be able to stop and refuel
within 30 minutes and be back onthe road.
I know we tried the same thingwith our Nissan Leaf and it
didn't really enjoy getting fastcharge more than one time
within an hour period, so it wasa much slower and different
(10:10):
experience from the chargingstandpoint, but it was great to
have those experiences and beable to compare the vehicles,
and you know it's.
I think it's important for usto make sure we're getting that
information out to potentialbuyers and drivers so that they
do understand the differences.
So tell me, leanne, speaking ofdifferent types of customers,
you're doing some pretty amazingmarket research right now and
(10:31):
I'd love to hear more about it.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit more about the current and
likely EV purchaser?
What does their disposableincome look like?
Are they a renter?
Are they a homeowner?
Are they living in single ormultifamily housing, and what
are you seeing as the distinctdifferences between current EV
owners and future likely buyers?
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energ (10:52):
We undertook this research
primarily because FranklinEnergy is an implementation
partner for utilities forelectrification, transportation
initiatives and we're seeing alot of filings, we're seeing a
lot of RFPs where utilities aresort of presenting a design for
managed charging in particular.
That requires certain thingsfor eligibility for
(11:15):
participation.
That requires certain thingsfor eligibility for
participation and we like verymuch to sort of have a
customer-centric approach toprogram design.
And I'd read a lot of studiesabout, you know, the demand
reduction impacts of varioustypes of managed charging
programs, but I'd never readanything that really got into
the end user.
(11:35):
The potential participant gotinto the end user, the potential
participant.
You know what were theirthoughts about it.
And so we conducted a survey atthe beginning of this year to
try to determine what were theexpectations of EV drivers and
likely buyers and what weretheir preferences and what are
their current charging behaviorsand what do they think about
(11:57):
these utility managed chargingprograms.
And so we surveyed 390, eithercurrent owners or near-term
buyers.
So they had to say they alreadyowned an electric vehicle or a
plug-in hybrid electric vehicleor they intended to buy one
within the next year.
And so we asked them a batteryof questions.
But, to your point.
(12:17):
What we found was not a hugedifference between the current
owner population of electricvehicles and the near-term buyer
population.
We did find that there are morewomen in the prospective buyer
population than current owners.
Right now it's about 60-40 maleversus female in current owners
(12:41):
.
But you flip it, it's about60-40 female to male among the
prospective buyer population.
And then if you look at the agedistribution right now it tends
to skew between, say, 25 to 44,but you could expect future
buyers to be a little older.
You're seeing a significantincrease in the 55 plus age
(13:03):
category.
Also, if you look at householdincome, we set a floor.
You know bottom line mostelectric vehicles cost more on
average than other vehicles inthe market.
So I wanted to make sure that Iwas talking to a population
that wasn't just aspirational.
So we set a 75K plus householdincome criteria to participate
(13:24):
in the study.
We also wanted people whoalready own a vehicle to
participate in the study as well.
But there really was nodifference in terms of household
income.
Home ownership we had nodifference between renters and
homeowners but interestingly,the likely buyer population was
even more likely than thecurrent owner population to be
(13:46):
living in a single family home,though there is a significant
population that are renters andthat are living in multifamily,
so interesting differences.
Looks like maybe there's goingto be a shift to slightly older,
more women in the EV buyerpopulation.
Jen Szaro, AESP (14:04):
That's really really interesting data.
I am really impressed to seewomen sort of taking the lead in
this next generation ofpurchasers, but also I love it
that we're seeing oldergenerations get comfortable with
this technology as well.
I also I love it that we'reseeing older generations get
comfortable with this technologyas well.
I know some of the key benefitswe're seeing for electric
vehicles are the total cost ofownership over the life of the
vehicle.
(14:25):
So do you think that's a driverfor providing some padding
maybe over time, of owning avehicle and you know, giving
that there's so much risk withthe price of gasoline going up
and down, you think that's adriver as well for the older
generations to be considering it.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energ (14:41):
So I think that that lower cost of
ownership and, in particular,lower maintenance requirements
for electric vehicles areincredibly attractive to women.
If you think about sort of thattraditional experience of
taking your car to get it workedon, you know the stereotypical
response that women get whenthey roll into an automotive
(15:06):
repair place.
You know there's a dread.
At least for me there's a dreadfor that.
I'm not an expert on vehicles.
What's ironic is, neither is myhusband, but he gets treated
very differently on the autodealership lot and particularly
in the repair area of the autodealership lot.
So I think that is aninteresting driver for women and
(15:28):
I think in general the earlyadopter population tends to be
younger by nature and it alsoskews male versus female.
And so I think as we're movingtowards the meaty middle of the
market, you're going to see moreolder buyers that are getting
more familiar.
They tend to sort of have amore of a wait and see attitude
about new technology and asthese new models roll out you
(15:49):
begin to see driver satisfactionincreasing and and also I think
you know the access to charginghas been a bit of a barrier.
As we're seeing more publiccharging get constructed, that's
also going to help support theadoption of this technology.
Jen Szaro, AESP (16:07):
I totally agree with you.
You know it's funny.
So I just had to take my car infor just regular maintenance,
my EV6.
And so we took it there and thedealer was like, oh, we're so
excited to have you here.
You know, you get free oilchanges for life.
And I just sort of looked atthe guy and I was like, oh well,
I don't have oil so I don'tneed that.
(16:27):
Can I at least get windshieldwiper replacements?
You know it's so interestingthat the dynamic you're right is
changing with the dealershipsand with repair organizations in
that conversation.
That's even happening when youbring your car in for
maintenance.
So I can see that alreadyhappening and I expect it will
(16:47):
continue to go that route.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout DC fast charging.
So how important do you thinkDC fast charging is to the
development of the market here?
Elizabeth, what are yourthoughts on?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (17:00):
that I think DC fast charging is
incredibly important to helpbuild range confidence in new EV
drivers and really to supportthat dream of the all-American
road trip right, and I thinkthat's why so much of the
federal funding for EV chargingthat was wrapped up in the
bipartisan infrastructure billis focused on building DC fast
(17:24):
charging along highway corridorsaround the country.
That's commonly referred to asthe NEVI program and we also
hear a lot about DC fastcharging because it's expensive
and the industry is still tryingto figure out the right
business models to support it.
But DC fast charging is alsoreally tough on the grid.
It requires a lot of power andthen that power is only used for
20 minutes.
(17:44):
So it's important to drivers tohave it when and where you need
it.
But I would say it's not thebest way to charge a car on a
day-to-day basis.
The best way to charge a car isas slowly as possible in a way
that still meets your drivingneeds right, and since most
vehicles sit parked for 22 hoursa day, that could be level one
(18:08):
or level two.
So I think level two continuesto be really important in the
community.
It's great in multifamilysettings, at movie theaters or
retail locations or workplaces,destination locations like parks
, anywhere where the car isgoing to be sitting for probably
two or more hours, is a greatapplication for level two.
(18:30):
And then at home, we've talkedabout level one.
I'm a huge advocate, but I alsounderstand that EV owners want
level two chargers at home, andso that's one of the reasons we
wanted to do this research thatLeanne conducted.
And we also know for utilitiesthat level two offers a really
(18:53):
strong pathway for loadflexibility, since those devices
are networked and can becontrolled either by the utility
or by the EV driver.
So we see a lot of interestfrom utilities and in the
regulatory space in home leveltwo charging because of that
load flexibility.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energ (19:09):
It is incredibly aspirational.
I couldn't believe how popularthe idea of owning your own
level two home charger was.
I mean the survey population77% of current drivers said they
already own a level two chargerand three quarters of those who
don't plan to buy one.
(19:30):
And if you look at the likelybuyer population, 94% of them
say they plan to own a level twocharger and that includes 92%
of current renters.
So you have to take it with agrain of salt.
It is lovely the idea of havingthat kind of charging
convenience out in your garage,but we know the reality is that
(19:54):
not everyone can own their ownlevel two charger.
You've got renters who have noway to own their own charger.
You've got condominium ownersthat may or may not be allowed
to install a level two chargerat their location.
There's just a variety ofreasons.
Maybe people live in an olderhome, they don't have the panel
amperage capacity to be able toinstall their own charger.
(20:15):
But it's important to know thatthat desire is there and it
certainly was surprising to me.
I know we've been reviewingcommon demand response program
designs, you know, for managedcharging.
Most utilities are including alevel two charger as a part of
that plan and we keep sayingthat's great.
(20:37):
I'm not sure, number one, thateveryone's going to want to buy
it.
What we heard was yes, we'reinterested in your level two
managed charging program, butit's pretty rude to ask me to
buy that equipment in order toparticipate in your program
Exactly.
So the implication for utilitiesis that they're probably going
(20:57):
to need to offer more thanthey're currently offering to
really make that attractive.
So you know, if you look at theaverage cost of a level two
charger is six hundred dollarsplus.
If you look at the marketleaders selling the product and
then if you look at the cost ofinstallation, it's going to run
twelve hundred dollars plus.
That's a significant investment.
In some markets it might be$2,000 plus, just depending upon
(21:20):
the cost for an electrician inyour service area.
So the idea that all you'regoing to offer is a $200 rebate
off the cost of a charger it'snot going to get you there.
And these respondents said weneed more than that.
We need at least 500 bucks.
We need you to help pay for thecost of the installation.
So utilities should be thinkingabout that.
Jen Szaro, AESP (21:43):
What other types of programs are you seeing
being offered right now forcustomers to be incentivized to
not just buy the vehicles butalso change their charging
behaviors in a way that benefitsthe utility?
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Ene (21:59):
also change their charging behaviors
in a way that benefits theutility.
We definitely are seeing alevel two managed charging
program, but we also are seeingbehavioral programs, and by
behavioral it could be a vehicletelematics-based behavioral
program.
It could be an interval usagedata program where you share
your usage or the utilityanalyzes your usage to determine
(22:20):
whether or not you are chargingin off-peak periods.
One of the behavioral programsthat has been published a study
published about it was focusedon basically, you set your
charger settings and send me ascreenshot of those charger
settings and that is the way youget enrolled and that would be
your charger app and then we'regoing to monitor your usage to
(22:43):
see if you seem to be complyingwith those charger settings and
in most cases, the vast majorityof participants are doing so.
Most people charge overnightanyway and plan to charge
overnight.
Even among those that wesurveyed, likely buyers were
(23:04):
significantly more likely to becharging from like 10 pm and
later.
Now there was a surprisingpercentage who would charge at
other parts of the day, inparticular that end of the
workday time period where youroll up between you know at five
o'clock and plug in, and Ithink there's certainly going to
be the need for managing thatend of the workday spike.
And then we've also got a lotof people who are charging
(23:25):
during the day because more andmore of us, since COVID, are
working from home and so thosenighttime patterns are not maybe
as reliable as they used to be.
But that behavioral idea wasvery popular and that's what my
biggest takeaway from this studyis that you're going to need
different flavors to engage withall driver, all parts of the
(23:46):
driver population, and you wantto get them engaged as soon as
possible so that you can helpinfluence their charging times
and get them used, to get theminto the habit of charging at
the best times.
We tested telematics versusEVSE, and EVSE was a little more
popular than telematics.
(24:07):
But there are certain concernsthat were expressed about
telematics and if a utilitycorrectly addresses those
concerns, then I think that it'spossible that you can encourage
more people to participate.
So the biggest concern whatwould you guess it is with a
telematics-based program whereit's managed charging, where
(24:28):
you're going to basicallycontrol my charging and shut it
off?
Jen Szaro, AESP (24:32):
I feel like it's just the whole control
issue in itself, right Sort ofthe big brother not having the
ability to when you want to go,charge when you want to charge.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Ener (24:41):
And mostly it's about don't don't
you turn off my charging whenI'm away from home, because
obviously I need to be chargingthen Right.
And so you need to communicatethat you've got geofencing
capabilities.
You've got to be able to.
You can identify where they arecharging and promise not to
turn off their charging whenthey are charging away from home
.
But mostly it's about I'm notgoing to have.
(25:05):
This is across the board, everysingle program.
You see the concern thatthey're not going to be fully
charged when they need a fullcharge, and so you've got to
make sure that you are offeringa more sophisticated approach to
your managed charging program.
You need to be able for them totell you what they're driving,
(25:25):
how far they're driving and whenthey need to be charged.
Dynamic approach a moreoptimized approach to the way
you set up your participants in,when their chargers activate or
aren't activated.
You've got to make sure you'remeeting their needs and make
them comfortable with the wholeidea so that they don't think
(25:48):
they're going to get strandedwhen they get up to drive in the
morning.
Jen Szaro, AESP (25:52):
I think that's so important to mention because
you want to make sure the driverexperience is a positive one.
You know they're already makinga change in behavior by
charging, or, you know, fuelingtheir vehicle at home or at a
charger that isn't a gas station, so it's a different experience
.
So now just making sure that ifyou are engaging with them in a
(26:15):
charging program a managedcharging program specifically
that you're doing it in a waythat still meets their needs, I
think that's so spot on.
So, Elizabeth, tell me what arethe implications of these
findings on how you're thinkingabout new program designs for EV
charging, especially managedcharging programs?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (26:33):
Yeah , I mean.
I think the first takeaway ispeople want to charge at home.
It's one of the best parts ofhaving an EV is not ever having
to go to the gas station again,and for me, because I always
come at this with an equity lens, that has really big
implications for utilities.
In terms of programs formultifamily, I think that any
(26:58):
utility that's offering aresidential charging program
needs to be looking at what theycan do for multifamily as well.
I think to Leanne's pointbehavioral programs for managed
charging are worth consideringand those can include things
like a TOU rate right.
These can be pretty low cost onthe implementation side and
(27:20):
they're appealing to customers.
I think from a grid perspective, there's sort of a ceiling to
the applicability of those typesof programs because they have
the potential to createartificial load peaks, right,
the TOU rate switches at 9 pmand all of a sudden everybody
starts charging.
But near term, where we arewith adoption, I don't think we
(27:43):
should overlook program designslike that, because I think they
can deliver value and they'reappealing to customers.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin (27:49):
Actually the EV rate plan we tested was
the number one preferred if youhad them rank, all these
programs that we tested and thatone ended up, 48 percent of
respondents put that rank, thatas their number one or their
number two option.
Jen Szaro, AESP (28:06):
And that's the time of use rate, right?
So, yeah, don't charge in thesetimes.
Charge in these times andyou'll get a better rate.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin En (28:12):
Right , and what's lovely about that
is you maintain a sense ofcontrol about that right.
Like my charging is not goingto be controlled by someone else
, but I can control my behaviorand that's very attractive.
Jen Szaro, AESP (28:25):
But you could be yeah, like you said, you
could pay a peak rate if that'swhen you really really need to
charge and not have to worryabout it, just know that you're
going to have to pay a littlebit more.
So, from a regulatorystandpoint, let's discuss how
regulation and legislativetrends right now might help or
hinder utilities, and what areyour findings on this research,
(28:47):
elizabeth?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (28:48):
Yeah , I mean, I think there's a ton
of interest in managed chargingin the regulatory space, right,
and that interest comes fromutilities.
It comes from regulators space,right, and that interest comes
from utilities, it comes fromregulators, it comes from
stakeholders.
It probably doesn't as muchcome from customers, right?
That interest is there.
I think.
Probably today that interestoutstrips the grid value that
(29:11):
can be cost-effectively obtainedby managing residential
charging load.
But what I do think isimportant today is starting to
condition these EV drivers tounderstand what type of charging
behavior is good for the gridversus what isn't, and setting
those incentives that help themadopt the right behaviors and
habits at the start of their EVjourney.
(29:33):
And there are localdistribution advantages of
managed charging as well, atsort of like the feeder or
transformer level versus thebulk system level.
So you know there's a lot ofpotential here.
But I think that you know it'simportant to bring that voice of
the customer research.
It's important that programdesigns be structured in a way
(29:53):
that give customers choice,right, whether it's between a
time of use or an active managedcharging program based on the
charger or if there's somethingwith vehicle telematics.
But there are also ways to shapewhat customers are most
interested in.
(30:13):
We just saw a decision inColorado where the utility is
offering different flavors ofmanaged charging but the
incentives for the more activemanaged charging are higher than
the incentives for thebehavioral, and so it gives an
option for customers who aren'tquite comfortable with active,
but it sends a clear signal thatthere's more grid value and the
(30:37):
utility and the regulatorswould prefer that people be
enrolling in that active managedcharging program design.
So there are a lot of differentoptions and I'm not totally
convinced that the regulatorylandscape knows exactly what it
wants right now.
But we all kind of know thatthere's a there there with
managed charging, and so it's agreat time for utilities to be
(31:00):
really drilling into what theywant, doing the work to
understand the voice of theircustomer and what's it going to
take to convince customers to dowhat we want them to do, and
then offering these programs ina choice based way that test
those different approaches anddifferent incentive levels and
different grid results.
Jen Szaro, AESP (31:19):
I really agree with that.
I think it's so important togive options right.
People really want options.
Maybe not so many options, butthey want at least enough
options that give them theflexibility to match up with
their behaviors.
And I think it's important toyour point that the regulators
(31:39):
give utilities some flexibilityon being able to try different
things and see what sticks forthe customer and what makes
sense for the customer, and notbe sort of locked into a
specific framework or style ofprogram.
So I think that's going to bereally important to our
long-term success is to giveutilities the opportunity to
(32:00):
innovate here in this space,because we're all learning
together, right?
I mean, none of us has it 100%figured out and people do not
all act exactly the same, and soI think it's important that we
have variety to meet all sortsof needs, especially when we're
thinking about energy equity.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy (32:20):
I was surprised that so many
likely buyers and current ownerswere interested in
participating in these programs.
You know, we tested thesedescriptions based on customer
feedback, based on what wepicked up in qualitative
conversations about what the bigconcerns were, and I think we
we found the sweet spot, youknow, for these descriptions,
(32:43):
that sort of address, most ofthe concerns that we were aware
of and we have like 75 percentplus likely, very likely to to
participate in most of theprograms.
The one program that did notget extremely high marks was V
to G.
The one program that did notget extremely high marks was V2G
.
That is a little bit scarysounding to consumers, that idea
(33:03):
that you might pull charge offmy vehicle battery, like is it
going to harm my vehicle battery?
Wow, that's pretty high-handed.
Thank you very much, utility.
I don't want you pulling chargeoff my battery but you know, I
think it's new technology andagain, I think there'll be early
adopters who will pick that up,especially if utilities are
(33:24):
willing to pay a premium forparticipation in that kind of
program.
And I think, as you begin to getcase studies and some folks
explaining to their neighborsand their friends how much money
they're making off that programand it's not harming their car
at all.
You know, then I think it'llbegin to catch on.
(33:45):
But overall, current driversare more comfortable with all of
these programs across the boardbecause they are comfortable
with their charging needs right.
They realize they don't need afull charge every day.
They realize that it is okay tolimit when they charge to
overnight.
You know, the new drivers, thepotential owners, are the ones
(34:09):
that are not so sure yet, but asthey get comfortable they'll be
more likely to participate.
But the more that you can getengaged early on, the better.
Jen Szaro, AESP (34:19):
That makes perfect sense.
So depending on where they arein their ownership cycle, they
may lean toward one program oranother.
That's a really good point.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin (34:28):
I think people learn right, and
that's you know, when you hearsomething like 94% of likely
buyers plan to get a level twocharger, I think about all the
people who say, well, I can'tget a level two charger, so I'm
not going to identify myself asa likely buyer, right?
So I think we have to betalking to customers about all
(34:49):
of these different options andmaking it clear that there's no
one thing that's better or worsethan the other.
Right?
You know this infrastructure isexpensive and you know it
doesn't have to be the perfectsolution.
A level one hack I thought wewere going to have.
We were going to get our EV andcharge on level one for a month
(35:10):
before we got a level twocharger.
Jen Szaro, AESP (35:12):
We ended up doing it for six years.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin (35:15):
So you learn along the way.
And I think to Leanne's pointI'm not surprised that the
research revealed that currentowners are much more comfortable
with all of these programdesigns than likely buyers, and
so to me that means that there'sa lot of education to continue
to do with likely buyers andmaybe that's not the right time
to be talking to them aboutmanaged charging.
(35:37):
Maybe the right time is.
Six months later you can comealong and say, hey, how's that
charging thing going, and wouldyou be interested in letting us
pay you to make that flexible?
And you know.
Again to Leanne's point.
It's all about how you talkabout it.
Right, that car is thecustomer's asset first.
They use it, they need it, andI think there's a way to say
(36:02):
managed charging is anopportunity to earn revenue on
your asset when you're nototherwise using it.
But we certainly shouldn't betalking about it as something
that utilities have an ingrainedright to do.
That's just not going to sitwell with the customer.
It's their car.
Jen Szaro, AESP (36:19):
Yeah, exactly, it's their assets and they're
the ones who pay for it.
Yeah, I'm not surprised at allthat any kind of vehicle degrade
programs would be sort of thelowest on the list, just because
you know you want to know thatyour battery is going to survive
.
I know a lot of utilities arenow working with vehicle
manufacturers to prove out theimpacts on V2G programs to
(36:40):
battery life and you know, Ithink we'll get more research in
that area as we get furtherinto the industry.
So it's so exciting.
This is such an exciting fieldto me just because I personally
have been driving an EV for solong started back in.
Well gosh, when the first, evenbefore the first Leaf came out,
we were driving a convertedPrius plug-in and then, of
(37:02):
course, moved to the Leaf afterthat and now I'm on my third EV.
It's awesome to think aboutthat.
So I know I'm not your typicalbuyer, but it's exciting to see
that the future of ourtransportation market is
changing and people are boughtinto it.
I know my son.
It's really funny.
I have two boys who drive nowboth drive EVs and one of them
(37:29):
we had to do a rental car andpulled up to the gas station and
he didn't know how to pump gas.
He didn't know how to pump gas,and it was just one of those
aha moments about how our livesare changing, related to
electric transportation, and howthis next generation is going
to have potentially an entirelydifferent transportation
(37:51):
ownership experience, which isreally exciting to think about.
That is very exciting.
Absolutely, that's veryexciting.
Well, thank you so much forspending time with me and for
sharing information about thisamazing research that Franklin
Energy has undertaken, and Iknow you're also doing tons of
great work with other utilitiesand partners, and I'm excited to
(38:14):
see what you come up with nextin your research.
I'm excited to see what youcome up with next in your
research.
So thank you for being herewith us today and I hope to have
you back again soon on theprogram.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frank (38:24):
Thank you so much.
Thank you really appreciate theopportunity to talk.
Jen Szaro, AESP (38:30):
All right.
Well, as I mentioned at thebeginning of the podcast, we've
got a great initiative calledEVdx ev driver experience and
franklin energy was one of ourfounding supporters for that
program.
So if you haven't checked itout yet, go to wwwaesporg
forward slash evdx to learn more.
(38:50):
Thank you so much.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frank (39:07):
We'll see you next time.
Welcome back to the Energy Beat podcast.
It's springtime here in Floridaand it's a time when car owners
wash off the dust and grime fortheir winter roads and start
planning those weekend roadtrips.
Today's podcast focuses on whatEV customers and their likely
buyers think aboututility-managed charging
programs.
We'll be speaking with twoexperts today from Franklin
(00:29):
Energy Leanne, head Director ofEmerging Solutions, and
Elizabeth Turnbull, director ofMarket Development for
Transportation Electrification.
Using AESP's Electric VehicleDriver Experience Framework as a
guide, these experts will betalking about their EV-man
managed charging voice of thecustomer research and diving
into some surprising takeawaysthat paint a much more nuanced
(00:52):
and complex ecosystem formanaged charging in the future.
So with that, let's get started.
Why don't you start, leanne, bytelling us a little bit about
yourself?
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy (01:02):
I have been in the energy
industry for over 20 years.
I did a lot of consumerinsights and research for a
consulting firm for utilitiesall over the country Also some
energy efficient productmanufacturers as well and ended
up at a utility as an energyefficiency solutions manager.
And then I've been at FranklinEnergy for five years and I've
done a variety of things.
I was a product manager and nowI'm a solutions manager,
(01:28):
focused primarily on ourtransportation electrification
solutions and also working as aside gig on our state energy
office solutions.
Jen Szaro, AESP (01:40):
Love it.
Very exciting work.
All right, Elizabeth, tell me alittle bit about yourself as
well and what you are currentlyfocused on for Franklin Energy.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (01:48):
Yeah , thanks, jen.
Well, as you said, I'm thedirector of market development
for transportationelectrification here at Franklin
Energy, understand the EVmarket and the regulatory
landscape in which all of thiswork is unfolding, and then work
with utilities around thecountry to support the design
(02:12):
and then implementation of theirEV programs.
My background includes a decadeof experience at investor-owned
electric utilities here on theWest Coast.
At those utilities I wasinvolved in designing, launching
and implementing EV programseverything from residential
managed charging to fleetinfrastructure to utility-owned
(02:36):
and operated DC fast charging.
So a lot of different programexperience across the whole
breadth of what happens atutilities with EVs.
Jen Szaro, AESP (02:45):
Well, it's perfect that you're here then
today to talk with us a littlebit about how important it is to
get the EV customer and fleetowner experience right.
Clearly you've had someexperience with both residential
markets and fleets, and so Ithink that's going to be really
helpful to the conversationtoday.
So, talking about EVDX, our EVDriver Experience Initiative, a
(03:08):
lot of this focuses aroundensuring in an existing time of
use or manage charging programor even just use public charging
(03:29):
stations.
So just making sure that thatexperience is consumer centric,
helping to build awareness andknowledge about electric
vehicles as well in a positivelight, and making sure that the
charging experience is a goodone so that we don't create
detractors here, especially inthe late, early adopter phase
when we're getting ready to goto early majority.
So if you want to learn moreabout EVDX, you can go to asporg
(03:54):
forward, slash EVDX and youknow.
Speaking of charging, elizabeth, tell me a little bit more
about the differences betweenlevel one, level two and fast
charging for our audience.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (04:06):
Yeah , sure thing.
So level one charging istypically done with a cable that
comes with the light dutyvehicle and I think a lot of the
research and things we're goingto be talking about today
really are about light dutyvehicles owned by what utilities
think of as residentialcustomers.
So a lot of those cars comewith that level one cable and it
(04:29):
just plugs into a standard 110volt outlet.
So this level one charginghappens most commonly at home.
It could also happen in someparking garages and other
creative ways.
I certainly have run a levelone charging cable out the
window of an Airbnb, but I don'trecommend using an extension
cord.
I should always add that forlevel one.
(04:49):
So it adds about three or fourmiles of range per hour of time
that the car is plugged in.
So it's pretty slow, but if youcan plug in for 10 hours
overnight you can get 30 to 40miles of range.
Jen Szaro, AESP (05:01):
So I hear most plug-in owners.
If they have a hybrid plug-invehicle, it's a great option,
right?
So my understanding is youdon't always need to have a
level two or access to fastcharging if you have a plug-in
electric vehicle that isn'tfully electric.
Is that what you're kind ofseeing in the market?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (05:19):
Yeah , I think that's definitely the
case.
I think there are reasons thatconsumers want level two beyond
just the charging time.
But I think, as's definitelythe case, I think there are
reasons that consumers wantlevel two beyond just the
charging time, but I think asfar as just getting the car
charged, particularly forplug-in hybrids, level one can
work.
Honestly, jen, I was an EVdriver for six years before I
got a level two charger and Iwas able to charge two vehicles
(05:40):
on level one for a long time.
So I think, depending on yourdriving habits and the use case,
it can be a really goodapplication and it works really
nicely for folks who are rentingor who live in multifamily or,
for whatever reason, can't ordon't want to install a level
two charger, and so I'm a bigfan of level one.
(06:01):
I think we need to be talkingmore about it.
But I also understand why.
You know there are reasons whypeople want level two, and you
know one of those reasons is thefaster charge.
Right.
It gets you about 25 miles ofrange for every hour that you're
plugged in.
It's more expensive, right.
The chargers in a residentialsetting cost probably $400 to
$700.
And then you've got to do allthe right wiring and have panel
(06:24):
capacity.
But many of those level twochargers are networked,
typically over Wi-Fi inresidential settings or over
cellular networks in commercialsettings, so then that can be
controlled or accessed by aphone app or a back-end platform
.
So level two offers not just ahigher charging speed but a
little bit more control to theperson who owns the charger.
Jen Szaro, AESP (06:49):
And I know many utilities now have incentive
programs for using a level twocharger that has intelligence
that you can tap into.
So I think that could beanother great incentive.
And I know having moved fromnot having level two charging in
my home to having it for ourfully electric car was night and
day.
It was wonderful.
I was so excited when we gotours installed.
(07:10):
Now I do understand that noteveryone can easily install it.
If you don't have a singlefamily home or a service upgrade
might be cost prohibitive.
You know that might prevent youfrom even purchasing the car in
some cases, I would imagine.
But I know there are othersolutions like DC fast charging,
maybe in the community.
So maybe talk to us a littlebit about DC fast charging as
(07:31):
well and how that's being usedas a solution for EV drivers.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (07:36):
Yeah , absolutely so.
Dc fast charging.
You know the reason we call it.
That is, it takes AC power fromthe grid and converts it to DC
power, which is what the batteryuses.
It can range from 30 kilowattson the low end to 350 kilowatts
on the high end, so that's likea 10x difference in how fast the
car could charge, depending onthe fast charger.
(07:59):
These chargers are reallyexpensive.
They can cost, you know,$250,000.
So this typically only happensin public.
Or you know, if you have a busfleet or something like that,
you might have DC fast chargingthere.
But you know this isn't for forresidential settings.
Jen Szaro, AESP (08:17):
And in some cases they can take a dedicated
substation to install, correct?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin (08:21):
I mean probably not for a single
one DC fast charger, but youstart getting into charging
plazas.
10 to 20 fast chargers yeah,that's a lot of power, right?
Big draw If there's 350kilowatts each.
Jen Szaro, AESP (08:37):
I'm always driving by the Tesla plazas with
the Tesla chargers and there'slike a line too with the waiting
to get into those.
You know, there's like a linetoo with the waiting to get into
those Never seems to be quitethe same line for the other
types of vehicles charging theirvehicles.
So I know I have a Kia EV6,which I adore, and it charges
very quickly, which I love aboutit.
It can take high voltage.
(08:58):
But there's also that challengethat not all cars can charge at
the same rate.
On DC fast chargers, right,even if it's stated that it
might be a 350 kW charger, forinstance, a Nissan Leaf might
only be able to still charge at50 kW tops Is that right?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (09:16):
Yeah , that's exactly right, jen.
So when you're looking at carsit's worth looking at how fast
they can charge.
You know it has to be not justthe charger but also the car
that can charge at that speed.
I would say for sort of thefaster ended chargers and new
vehicles, a driver can probablyget about 10 miles of range for
(09:36):
every minute that they'replugged in right.
So you stop for 10 minutes, youcould get 100 miles, and for
those of us who've been drivingthe cars that charge slower,
those new charging speeds arepretty spicy and fun.
Jen Szaro, AESP (09:49):
Oh yeah, we took our EV6 on a road trip out
of state and it was just magicalto be able to stop and refuel
within 30 minutes and be back onthe road.
I know we tried the same thingwith our Nissan Leaf and it
didn't really enjoy getting fastcharge more than one time
within an hour period, so it wasa much slower and different
(10:10):
experience from the chargingstandpoint, but it was great to
have those experiences and beable to compare the vehicles,
and you know it's.
I think it's important for usto make sure we're getting that
information out to potentialbuyers and drivers so that they
do understand the differences.
So tell me, leanne, speaking ofdifferent types of customers,
you're doing some pretty amazingmarket research right now and
(10:31):
I'd love to hear more about it.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit more about the current and
likely EV purchaser?
What does their disposableincome look like?
Are they a renter?
Are they a homeowner?
Are they living in single ormultifamily housing, and what
are you seeing as the distinctdifferences between current EV
owners and future likely buyers?
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energ (10:52):
We undertook this research
primarily because FranklinEnergy is an implementation
partner for utilities forelectrification, transportation
initiatives and we're seeing alot of filings, we're seeing a
lot of RFPs where utilities aresort of presenting a design for
managed charging in particular.
That requires certain thingsfor eligibility for
(11:15):
participation.
That requires certain thingsfor eligibility for
participation and we like verymuch to sort of have a
customer-centric approach toprogram design.
And I'd read a lot of studiesabout, you know, the demand
reduction impacts of varioustypes of managed charging
programs, but I'd never readanything that really got into
the end user.
(11:35):
The potential participant gotinto the end user, the potential
participant.
You know what were theirthoughts about it.
And so we conducted a survey atthe beginning of this year to
try to determine what were theexpectations of EV drivers and
likely buyers and what weretheir preferences and what are
their current charging behaviorsand what do they think about
(11:57):
these utility managed chargingprograms.
And so we surveyed 390, eithercurrent owners or near-term
buyers.
So they had to say they alreadyowned an electric vehicle or a
plug-in hybrid electric vehicleor they intended to buy one
within the next year.
And so we asked them a batteryof questions.
But, to your point.
(12:17):
What we found was not a hugedifference between the current
owner population of electricvehicles and the near-term buyer
population.
We did find that there are morewomen in the prospective buyer
population than current owners.
Right now it's about 60-40 maleversus female in current owners
(12:41):
.
But you flip it, it's about60-40 female to male among the
prospective buyer population.
And then if you look at the agedistribution right now it tends
to skew between, say, 25 to 44,but you could expect future
buyers to be a little older.
You're seeing a significantincrease in the 55 plus age
(13:03):
category.
Also, if you look at householdincome, we set a floor.
You know bottom line mostelectric vehicles cost more on
average than other vehicles inthe market.
So I wanted to make sure that Iwas talking to a population
that wasn't just aspirational.
So we set a 75K plus householdincome criteria to participate
(13:24):
in the study.
We also wanted people whoalready own a vehicle to
participate in the study as well.
But there really was nodifference in terms of household
income.
Home ownership we had nodifference between renters and
homeowners but interestingly,the likely buyer population was
even more likely than thecurrent owner population to be
(13:46):
living in a single family home,though there is a significant
population that are renters andthat are living in multifamily,
so interesting differences.
Looks like maybe there's goingto be a shift to slightly older,
more women in the EV buyerpopulation.
Jen Szaro, AESP (14:04):
That's really really interesting data.
I am really impressed to seewomen sort of taking the lead in
this next generation ofpurchasers, but also I love it
that we're seeing oldergenerations get comfortable with
this technology as well.
I also I love it that we'reseeing older generations get
comfortable with this technologyas well.
I know some of the key benefitswe're seeing for electric
vehicles are the total cost ofownership over the life of the
vehicle.
(14:25):
So do you think that's a driverfor providing some padding
maybe over time, of owning avehicle and you know, giving
that there's so much risk withthe price of gasoline going up
and down, you think that's adriver as well for the older
generations to be considering it.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energ (14:41):
So I think that that lower cost of
ownership and, in particular,lower maintenance requirements
for electric vehicles areincredibly attractive to women.
If you think about sort of thattraditional experience of
taking your car to get it workedon, you know the stereotypical
response that women get whenthey roll into an automotive
(15:06):
repair place.
You know there's a dread.
At least for me there's a dreadfor that.
I'm not an expert on vehicles.
What's ironic is, neither is myhusband, but he gets treated
very differently on the autodealership lot and particularly
in the repair area of the autodealership lot.
So I think that is aninteresting driver for women and
(15:28):
I think in general the earlyadopter population tends to be
younger by nature and it alsoskews male versus female.
And so I think as we're movingtowards the meaty middle of the
market, you're going to see moreolder buyers that are getting
more familiar.
They tend to sort of have amore of a wait and see attitude
about new technology and asthese new models roll out you
(15:49):
begin to see driver satisfactionincreasing and and also I think
you know the access to charginghas been a bit of a barrier.
As we're seeing more publiccharging get constructed, that's
also going to help support theadoption of this technology.
Jen Szaro, AESP (16:07):
I totally agree with you.
You know it's funny.
So I just had to take my car infor just regular maintenance,
my EV6.
And so we took it there and thedealer was like, oh, we're so
excited to have you here.
You know, you get free oilchanges for life.
And I just sort of looked atthe guy and I was like, oh well,
I don't have oil so I don'tneed that.
(16:27):
Can I at least get windshieldwiper replacements?
You know it's so interestingthat the dynamic you're right is
changing with the dealershipsand with repair organizations in
that conversation.
That's even happening when youbring your car in for
maintenance.
So I can see that alreadyhappening and I expect it will
(16:47):
continue to go that route.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout DC fast charging.
So how important do you thinkDC fast charging is to the
development of the market here?
Elizabeth, what are yourthoughts on?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (17:00):
that I think DC fast charging is
incredibly important to helpbuild range confidence in new EV
drivers and really to supportthat dream of the all-American
road trip right, and I thinkthat's why so much of the
federal funding for EV chargingthat was wrapped up in the
bipartisan infrastructure billis focused on building DC fast
(17:24):
charging along highway corridorsaround the country.
That's commonly referred to asthe NEVI program and we also
hear a lot about DC fastcharging because it's expensive
and the industry is still tryingto figure out the right
business models to support it.
But DC fast charging is alsoreally tough on the grid.
It requires a lot of power andthen that power is only used for
20 minutes.
(17:44):
So it's important to drivers tohave it when and where you need
it.
But I would say it's not thebest way to charge a car on a
day-to-day basis.
The best way to charge a car isas slowly as possible in a way
that still meets your drivingneeds right, and since most
vehicles sit parked for 22 hoursa day, that could be level one
(18:08):
or level two.
So I think level two continuesto be really important in the
community.
It's great in multifamilysettings, at movie theaters or
retail locations or workplaces,destination locations like parks
, anywhere where the car isgoing to be sitting for probably
two or more hours, is a greatapplication for level two.
(18:30):
And then at home, we've talkedabout level one.
I'm a huge advocate, but I alsounderstand that EV owners want
level two chargers at home, andso that's one of the reasons we
wanted to do this research thatLeanne conducted.
And we also know for utilitiesthat level two offers a really
(18:53):
strong pathway for loadflexibility, since those devices
are networked and can becontrolled either by the utility
or by the EV driver.
So we see a lot of interestfrom utilities and in the
regulatory space in home leveltwo charging because of that
load flexibility.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energ (19:09):
It is incredibly aspirational.
I couldn't believe how popularthe idea of owning your own
level two home charger was.
I mean the survey population77% of current drivers said they
already own a level two chargerand three quarters of those who
don't plan to buy one.
(19:30):
And if you look at the likelybuyer population, 94% of them
say they plan to own a level twocharger and that includes 92%
of current renters.
So you have to take it with agrain of salt.
It is lovely the idea of havingthat kind of charging
convenience out in your garage,but we know the reality is that
(19:54):
not everyone can own their ownlevel two charger.
You've got renters who have noway to own their own charger.
You've got condominium ownersthat may or may not be allowed
to install a level two chargerat their location.
There's just a variety ofreasons.
Maybe people live in an olderhome, they don't have the panel
amperage capacity to be able toinstall their own charger.
(20:15):
But it's important to know thatthat desire is there and it
certainly was surprising to me.
I know we've been reviewingcommon demand response program
designs, you know, for managedcharging.
Most utilities are including alevel two charger as a part of
that plan and we keep sayingthat's great.
(20:37):
I'm not sure, number one, thateveryone's going to want to buy
it.
What we heard was yes, we'reinterested in your level two
managed charging program, butit's pretty rude to ask me to
buy that equipment in order toparticipate in your program
Exactly.
So the implication for utilitiesis that they're probably going
(20:57):
to need to offer more thanthey're currently offering to
really make that attractive.
So you know, if you look at theaverage cost of a level two
charger is six hundred dollarsplus.
If you look at the marketleaders selling the product and
then if you look at the cost ofinstallation, it's going to run
twelve hundred dollars plus.
That's a significant investment.
In some markets it might be$2,000 plus, just depending upon
(21:20):
the cost for an electrician inyour service area.
So the idea that all you'regoing to offer is a $200 rebate
off the cost of a charger it'snot going to get you there.
And these respondents said weneed more than that.
We need at least 500 bucks.
We need you to help pay for thecost of the installation.
So utilities should be thinkingabout that.
Jen Szaro, AESP (21:43):
What other types of programs are you seeing
being offered right now forcustomers to be incentivized to
not just buy the vehicles butalso change their charging
behaviors in a way that benefitsthe utility?
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Ene (21:59):
also change their charging behaviors
in a way that benefits theutility.
We definitely are seeing alevel two managed charging
program, but we also are seeingbehavioral programs, and by
behavioral it could be a vehicletelematics-based behavioral
program.
It could be an interval usagedata program where you share
your usage or the utilityanalyzes your usage to determine
(22:20):
whether or not you are chargingin off-peak periods.
One of the behavioral programsthat has been published a study
published about it was focusedon basically, you set your
charger settings and send me ascreenshot of those charger
settings and that is the way youget enrolled and that would be
your charger app and then we'regoing to monitor your usage to
(22:43):
see if you seem to be complyingwith those charger settings and
in most cases, the vast majorityof participants are doing so.
Most people charge overnightanyway and plan to charge
overnight.
Even among those that wesurveyed, likely buyers were
(23:04):
significantly more likely to becharging from like 10 pm and
later.
Now there was a surprisingpercentage who would charge at
other parts of the day, inparticular that end of the
workday time period where youroll up between you know at five
o'clock and plug in, and Ithink there's certainly going to
be the need for managing thatend of the workday spike.
And then we've also got a lotof people who are charging
(23:25):
during the day because more andmore of us, since COVID, are
working from home and so thosenighttime patterns are not maybe
as reliable as they used to be.
But that behavioral idea wasvery popular and that's what my
biggest takeaway from this studyis that you're going to need
different flavors to engage withall driver, all parts of the
(23:46):
driver population, and you wantto get them engaged as soon as
possible so that you can helpinfluence their charging times
and get them used, to get theminto the habit of charging at
the best times.
We tested telematics versusEVSE, and EVSE was a little more
popular than telematics.
(24:07):
But there are certain concernsthat were expressed about
telematics and if a utilitycorrectly addresses those
concerns, then I think that it'spossible that you can encourage
more people to participate.
So the biggest concern whatwould you guess it is with a
telematics-based program whereit's managed charging, where
(24:28):
you're going to basicallycontrol my charging and shut it
off?
Jen Szaro, AESP (24:32):
I feel like it's just the whole control
issue in itself, right Sort ofthe big brother not having the
ability to when you want to go,charge when you want to charge.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Ener (24:41):
And mostly it's about don't don't
you turn off my charging whenI'm away from home, because
obviously I need to be chargingthen Right.
And so you need to communicatethat you've got geofencing
capabilities.
You've got to be able to.
You can identify where they arecharging and promise not to
turn off their charging whenthey are charging away from home
.
But mostly it's about I'm notgoing to have.
(25:05):
This is across the board, everysingle program.
You see the concern thatthey're not going to be fully
charged when they need a fullcharge, and so you've got to
make sure that you are offeringa more sophisticated approach to
your managed charging program.
You need to be able for them totell you what they're driving,
(25:25):
how far they're driving and whenthey need to be charged.
Dynamic approach a moreoptimized approach to the way
you set up your participants in,when their chargers activate or
aren't activated.
You've got to make sure you'remeeting their needs and make
them comfortable with the wholeidea so that they don't think
(25:48):
they're going to get strandedwhen they get up to drive in the
morning.
Jen Szaro, AESP (25:52):
I think that's so important to mention because
you want to make sure the driverexperience is a positive one.
You know they're already makinga change in behavior by
charging, or, you know, fuelingtheir vehicle at home or at a
charger that isn't a gas station, so it's a different experience
.
So now just making sure that ifyou are engaging with them in a
(26:15):
charging program a managedcharging program specifically
that you're doing it in a waythat still meets their needs, I
think that's so spot on.
So, Elizabeth, tell me what arethe implications of these
findings on how you're thinkingabout new program designs for EV
charging, especially managedcharging programs?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (26:33):
Yeah , I mean.
I think the first takeaway ispeople want to charge at home.
It's one of the best parts ofhaving an EV is not ever having
to go to the gas station again,and for me, because I always
come at this with an equity lens, that has really big
implications for utilities.
In terms of programs formultifamily, I think that any
(26:58):
utility that's offering aresidential charging program
needs to be looking at what theycan do for multifamily as well.
I think to Leanne's pointbehavioral programs for managed
charging are worth consideringand those can include things
like a TOU rate right.
These can be pretty low cost onthe implementation side and
(27:20):
they're appealing to customers.
I think from a grid perspective, there's sort of a ceiling to
the applicability of those typesof programs because they have
the potential to createartificial load peaks, right,
the TOU rate switches at 9 pmand all of a sudden everybody
starts charging.
But near term, where we arewith adoption, I don't think we
(27:43):
should overlook program designslike that, because I think they
can deliver value and they'reappealing to customers.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin (27:49):
Actually the EV rate plan we tested was
the number one preferred if youhad them rank, all these
programs that we tested and thatone ended up, 48 percent of
respondents put that rank, thatas their number one or their
number two option.
Jen Szaro, AESP (28:06):
And that's the time of use rate, right?
So, yeah, don't charge in thesetimes.
Charge in these times andyou'll get a better rate.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin En (28:12):
Right , and what's lovely about that
is you maintain a sense ofcontrol about that right.
Like my charging is not goingto be controlled by someone else
, but I can control my behaviorand that's very attractive.
Jen Szaro, AESP (28:25):
But you could be yeah, like you said, you
could pay a peak rate if that'swhen you really really need to
charge and not have to worryabout it, just know that you're
going to have to pay a littlebit more.
So, from a regulatorystandpoint, let's discuss how
regulation and legislativetrends right now might help or
hinder utilities, and what areyour findings on this research,
(28:47):
elizabeth?
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frankl (28:48):
Yeah , I mean, I think there's a ton
of interest in managed chargingin the regulatory space, right,
and that interest comes fromutilities.
It comes from regulators space,right, and that interest comes
from utilities, it comes fromregulators, it comes from
stakeholders.
It probably doesn't as muchcome from customers, right?
That interest is there.
I think.
Probably today that interestoutstrips the grid value that
(29:11):
can be cost-effectively obtainedby managing residential
charging load.
But what I do think isimportant today is starting to
condition these EV drivers tounderstand what type of charging
behavior is good for the gridversus what isn't, and setting
those incentives that help themadopt the right behaviors and
habits at the start of their EVjourney.
(29:33):
And there are localdistribution advantages of
managed charging as well, atsort of like the feeder or
transformer level versus thebulk system level.
So you know there's a lot ofpotential here.
But I think that you know it'simportant to bring that voice of
the customer research.
It's important that programdesigns be structured in a way
(29:53):
that give customers choice,right, whether it's between a
time of use or an active managedcharging program based on the
charger or if there's somethingwith vehicle telematics.
But there are also ways to shapewhat customers are most
interested in.
(30:13):
We just saw a decision inColorado where the utility is
offering different flavors ofmanaged charging but the
incentives for the more activemanaged charging are higher than
the incentives for thebehavioral, and so it gives an
option for customers who aren'tquite comfortable with active,
but it sends a clear signal thatthere's more grid value and the
(30:37):
utility and the regulatorswould prefer that people be
enrolling in that active managedcharging program design.
So there are a lot of differentoptions and I'm not totally
convinced that the regulatorylandscape knows exactly what it
wants right now.
But we all kind of know thatthere's a there there with
managed charging, and so it's agreat time for utilities to be
(31:00):
really drilling into what theywant, doing the work to
understand the voice of theircustomer and what's it going to
take to convince customers to dowhat we want them to do, and
then offering these programs ina choice based way that test
those different approaches anddifferent incentive levels and
different grid results.
Jen Szaro, AESP (31:19):
I really agree with that.
I think it's so important togive options right.
People really want options.
Maybe not so many options, butthey want at least enough
options that give them theflexibility to match up with
their behaviors.
And I think it's important toyour point that the regulators
(31:39):
give utilities some flexibilityon being able to try different
things and see what sticks forthe customer and what makes
sense for the customer, and notbe sort of locked into a
specific framework or style ofprogram.
So I think that's going to bereally important to our
long-term success is to giveutilities the opportunity to
(32:00):
innovate here in this space,because we're all learning
together, right?
I mean, none of us has it 100%figured out and people do not
all act exactly the same, and soI think it's important that we
have variety to meet all sortsof needs, especially when we're
thinking about energy equity.
Lee Ann Head, Franklin Energy (32:20):
I was surprised that so many
likely buyers and current ownerswere interested in
participating in these programs.
You know, we tested thesedescriptions based on customer
feedback, based on what wepicked up in qualitative
conversations about what the bigconcerns were, and I think we
we found the sweet spot, youknow, for these descriptions,
(32:43):
that sort of address, most ofthe concerns that we were aware
of and we have like 75 percentplus likely, very likely to to
participate in most of theprograms.
The one program that did notget extremely high marks was V
to G.
The one program that did notget extremely high marks was V2G
.
That is a little bit scarysounding to consumers, that idea
(33:03):
that you might pull charge offmy vehicle battery, like is it
going to harm my vehicle battery?
Wow, that's pretty high-handed.
Thank you very much, utility.
I don't want you pulling chargeoff my battery but you know, I
think it's new technology andagain, I think there'll be early
adopters who will pick that up,especially if utilities are
(33:24):
willing to pay a premium forparticipation in that kind of
program.
And I think, as you begin to getcase studies and some folks
explaining to their neighborsand their friends how much money
they're making off that programand it's not harming their car
at all.
You know, then I think it'llbegin to catch on.
(33:45):
But overall, current driversare more comfortable with all of
these programs across the boardbecause they are comfortable
with their charging needs right.
They realize they don't need afull charge every day.
They realize that it is okay tolimit when they charge to
overnight.
You know, the new drivers, thepotential owners, are the ones
(34:09):
that are not so sure yet, but asthey get comfortable they'll be
more likely to participate.
But the more that you can getengaged early on, the better.
Jen Szaro, AESP (34:19):
That makes perfect sense.
So depending on where they arein their ownership cycle, they
may lean toward one program oranother.
That's a really good point.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin (34:28):
I think people learn right, and
that's you know, when you hearsomething like 94% of likely
buyers plan to get a level twocharger, I think about all the
people who say, well, I can'tget a level two charger, so I'm
not going to identify myself asa likely buyer, right?
So I think we have to betalking to customers about all
(34:49):
of these different options andmaking it clear that there's no
one thing that's better or worsethan the other.
Right?
You know this infrastructure isexpensive and you know it
doesn't have to be the perfectsolution.
A level one hack I thought wewere going to have.
We were going to get our EV andcharge on level one for a month
(35:10):
before we got a level twocharger.
Jen Szaro, AESP (35:12):
We ended up doing it for six years.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Franklin (35:15):
So you learn along the way.
And I think to Leanne's pointI'm not surprised that the
research revealed that currentowners are much more comfortable
with all of these programdesigns than likely buyers, and
so to me that means that there'sa lot of education to continue
to do with likely buyers andmaybe that's not the right time
to be talking to them aboutmanaged charging.
(35:37):
Maybe the right time is.
Six months later you can comealong and say, hey, how's that
charging thing going, and wouldyou be interested in letting us
pay you to make that flexible?
And you know.
Again to Leanne's point.
It's all about how you talkabout it.
Right, that car is thecustomer's asset first.
They use it, they need it, andI think there's a way to say
(36:02):
managed charging is anopportunity to earn revenue on
your asset when you're nototherwise using it.
But we certainly shouldn't betalking about it as something
that utilities have an ingrainedright to do.
That's just not going to sitwell with the customer.
It's their car.
Jen Szaro, AESP (36:19):
Yeah, exactly, it's their assets and they're
the ones who pay for it.
Yeah, I'm not surprised at allthat any kind of vehicle degrade
programs would be sort of thelowest on the list, just because
you know you want to know thatyour battery is going to survive
.
I know a lot of utilities arenow working with vehicle
manufacturers to prove out theimpacts on V2G programs to
(36:40):
battery life and you know, Ithink we'll get more research in
that area as we get furtherinto the industry.
So it's so exciting.
This is such an exciting fieldto me just because I personally
have been driving an EV for solong started back in.
Well gosh, when the first, evenbefore the first Leaf came out,
we were driving a convertedPrius plug-in and then, of
(37:02):
course, moved to the Leaf afterthat and now I'm on my third EV.
It's awesome to think aboutthat.
So I know I'm not your typicalbuyer, but it's exciting to see
that the future of ourtransportation market is
changing and people are boughtinto it.
I know my son.
It's really funny.
I have two boys who drive nowboth drive EVs and one of them
(37:29):
we had to do a rental car andpulled up to the gas station and
he didn't know how to pump gas.
He didn't know how to pump gas,and it was just one of those
aha moments about how our livesare changing, related to
electric transportation, and howthis next generation is going
to have potentially an entirelydifferent transportation
(37:51):
ownership experience, which isreally exciting to think about.
That is very exciting.
Absolutely, that's veryexciting.
Well, thank you so much forspending time with me and for
sharing information about thisamazing research that Franklin
Energy has undertaken, and Iknow you're also doing tons of
great work with other utilitiesand partners, and I'm excited to
(38:14):
see what you come up with nextin your research.
I'm excited to see what youcome up with next in your
research.
So thank you for being herewith us today and I hope to have
you back again soon on theprogram.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frank (38:24):
Thank you so much.
Thank you really appreciate theopportunity to talk.
Jen Szaro, AESP (38:30):
All right.
Well, as I mentioned at thebeginning of the podcast, we've
got a great initiative calledEVdx ev driver experience and
franklin energy was one of ourfounding supporters for that
program.
So if you haven't checked itout yet, go to wwwaesporg
forward slash evdx to learn more.
(38:50):
Thank you so much.
Elizabeth Turnbull, Frank (39:07):
We'll see you next time.
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