September 19, 2025 • 41 mins
Green banks and Community Development Financial Institutions (CDFIs) are rewriting the rulebook on climate finance, creating pathways for communities traditionally left behind by conventional lenders. These mission-driven organizations bring flexibility, creativity, and deep community connections to the table, allowing them to finance projects that might otherwise fall through the cracks.
Shawna Cuan, Co-Founder and CEO of Sustain Energy Finance and Chris Kramer, a green lending consultant at CK Financing, join Ian to discuss the role of green lenders in the evolving climate finance space.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
The GB50 Network of Green Banks
Chris's maps of Utility-Financing Partnerships and CDFI Green Loan Products
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ian Perterer (00:08):
Hey there and welcome back to the Energy Beat
podcast.
Today we're talking about money, specifically climate finance.
With major legislative andregulatory changes reshaping how
money flows or doesn't intoclean energy, questions of who
finances what and how are frontand center like never before.
Two of the players steppinginto this conversation are green
(00:32):
banks and community developmentfinancial institutions, or
CDFIs.
They are emerging as powerfuloptions in the climate finance
world that you may or may not befamiliar with.
That's why, in today's episode,we're digging into their role
in this fast-changing landscape.
We'll cover how green banks arehelping channel investments
into clean energy, how CDFIs areexpanding access for
(00:55):
communities and businesses.
Traditional lenders often missthe unique role both play in
supporting vulnerable energyprograms and the challenges and
opportunities ahead as climatefinance continues to evolve.
So to help unpack it all, I'mjoined by two fantastic guests
Shawna Cuan, ceo of SustainEnergy Finance, a Salt Lake
(01:16):
City-based green bank, and ChrisKramer of CK Finance, who's
worked extensively with CDFIsand energy organizations
nationwide.
So let's dive in, Shawna andChris.
Welcome to the show, Shawna.
How are things in Salt LakeCity?
We were just there recently atour conference.
Shawna Cuan (01:39):
Thanks so much, ian .
Really excited to be hereThings in Salt Lake are very
active, as you just saw with theAESP conference and very
excited to see where we're goingto go next.
Ian Perterer (01:51):
Yeah, and Chris, you're joining us from the East
Coast.
We're on the East Coast, andhow are you today?
Chris Kramer (01:57):
I'm doing well.
Thanks very much for having meon the podcast.
I split my time between Vermontand New Hampshire.
I'm currently in New Hampshiretoday, but things are active in
the Northeast as always.
Ian Perterer (02:10):
I'd like to start off with just a very, very basic
question and, Shawna, I guessI'll direct this one at you Can
you explain what a green bank isand what kind of work they do?
Yeah, absolutely.
And to be fair, you know, it'skind of one of those issues
where I think we pick the namefirst and then we started
defining what we do, and thenwe're like, oh, it's not really
the best way to describe what weare and what we do, but the
(02:33):
name is stuck, so we're kind ofworking with it as best we can.
And what's interesting aboutgreen banks is it's become this
umbrella term for lenders thatoperate in a couple of different
ways.
So there's a couple of greenbanks, many of which are at the
state level, some are at theregional level, some are local,
some are national in scope, andso we're kind of a big old
(02:58):
variety of different type ofentities.
And then, to further confusethings a little bit, some of us
are actually public entities orquasi public entities and some
of us are non-profitinstitutions.
But the thing that doescollectively bring us all
together is that we areestablished really with the
vision and purpose financingenergy projects and related
(03:19):
projects, and that relatedprojects category is getting a
little bit bigger and bigger andbigger, just as we see this
interconnection of energy withso many other facets of need
within our relative communities.
But I think the other thingthat's important to understand
with green banks, and what makesus a little bit different than
what might come to mindimmediately when you hear the
term green bank, is that we'reactually a bank.
(03:40):
So again, it's a terminology,it's something that we live with
now, but it's not necessarilyreflective of exactly who we are
.
So a typical traditional bankactually takes a deposit right,
you think of a brick and mortarbuilding.
You go there, you deposit witha teller or you go to an ATM.
We don't do that, so we don'thold deposits, but we do end up
(04:02):
investing our capital intoprojects and then that capital
gets paid back to us and then wereinvest it into projects with
the idea that we're providingthis perpetual long-term support
to our relative communities.
So hopefully that clarifies alittle bit about the terminology
on green banks and set some ofthe stage for today's
conversation.
Okay, and then, Chris, you work with green banks
(04:24):
, but you also work withcommunity development financial
institutions, or CDFIs.
What makes a lender a CDFI, andhow are they similar or
different to a green bank?
Chris Kramer (04:47):
Cdfi stands for Community Development Financial
Institution and there are acouple of things that make them
sort of what they are.
Probably the most fundamentalis that term community.
So they are set up to invest inlow income and underserved
communities and they can take acouple of different forms.
I think often when people thinkof CDFIs they think it's a
little bit more of like aninvestment bank or even venture
(05:09):
capital, where they're notactually taking deposits but
they do have funding on theirbalance sheet that they can
invest.
But there are also a number ofcredit unions that have CDFI
certification as well and theydo take deposits, but they are
set up specifically to servelow-income communities as well,
and they do take deposits, butthey are set up specifically to
serve low-income communities aswell.
They really run the gamutacross market sectors.
(05:31):
So they cover single families,small business multifamily is a
big part of the industry andthey cover both the building
sector as well as the smallbusiness sector.
So you'll see a lot ofinvestments in homes and
business-owned buildings,community nonprofit buildings
(05:53):
and a lot of multifamilybuildings.
And then you'll also see CDFIsthat invest in small business
growth as well.
Ian Perterer (06:02):
Okay, perfect.
So it sounds like there is acertification component to that
right.
You can't just spring up anddecide that you're going to be a
CDFI one day.
There's a rigorous vetting andprocess that people have to go
through in order to get thatdesignation.
Chris Kramer (06:17):
That's right and I'm glad you followed up on that
, because it's a US Treasurycertification and actually not
only do you have to be certifiedinitially, but you have to be
recertified on an annual basis,and part of that certification
has to do with where and howyou're investing, but part of it
also has to do with whatadditional community services,
technical assistance, otherkinds of community activities
(06:40):
you're carrying out.
So, unlike a traditional bank,you have some additional
requirements in order to meetthat certification on an ongoing
basis.
Ian Perterer (06:50):
Perfect, thank you .
Thank you for clarifying that,okay.
So now that we've got a lay ofthe land out of the way, I think
it's kind of fundamental sothat our listeners understand
your backgrounds and whereyou're coming from and what
you're going to bring to theconversation today.
Shawna, you work for SustainEnergy Finance, which is a green
bank, so tell us about yourorganization.
(07:10):
You're relatively new.
You were founded in 2023.
So can you tell us a little bitabout that and what some of
your organizational goals are?
Shawna Cuan (07:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
I appreciate the question and,just as a little bit of
background, I come from theenergy policy space and I've
been working in Utah for about10 years now and I started out
actually in the governor'soffice of energy development,
and financing has always been aneed in Utah.
We have a lot of opportunity inour space and we also are a
very business oriented state, soincreasingly, financing is just
(07:42):
one of those solution setsthat's very attractive within
our state and is somethingthat's really viable over the
longer term.
And when I was in thegovernor's office we helped pass
the CPACE legislation Somefolks may be familiar with that
commercial property assessedclean energy.
We had a revolving loan fund,and so financing was just
something that became more andmore relevant in the kind of
(08:03):
work we were doing.
Financing was just somethingthat became more and more
relevant in the kind of work wewere doing, and while I was
there I was like gosh, it'd begreat if we could have some kind
of lending entity in a muchmore comprehensive way.
And I had the opportunity acouple of years ago when I met
my co-founder, sean, to actuallyput some effort into this and
we had started to see a lot thisTrinity Lender Green Bank model
(08:24):
take the form of nonprofits andwe're like, huh, that's really
interesting because it providessome agility and flexibility to
how to tackle these issues andthe way that Utah is.
It's supportive of the concept,but it's maybe not going to be
the type of state that's goingto stand up its own green bank
and then capitalize it directly.
So we're like maybe this isreally the opportunity to move
(08:45):
forward and stand something likethis up.
And so two years ago, like yousaid, ian, we stood up a
sustained energy finance as anonprofit institution.
And in the near term, what we'rereally focused on is addressing
the nexus of energy andaffordable housing.
Utah is not unique.
We have a major affordablehousing crisis, but we already
(09:05):
have we're already 50,000affordable housing units short,
and it's just going to get worse.
Our population is expected todouble and so affordability and
housing are just you know verymuch at a crisis point for us
and that's where we have thegreatest amount of need.
So what we're focused on thenear term is deploying our
capital into residentialretrofit, into new build for
(09:27):
multifamily, and really focusingon how these types of projects
can have energy efficiencycomponents.
They can be more resilient,they can be healthier and safer
is how we can help transform ourcommunity here in Utah bringing
in other fellow lenders likeCDFIs and credit unions to
(09:48):
Chris's point bringing in ourtraditional banks as well, and
helping bring a lot of morecapital into our market, because
our demand is not going to begoing away and we really want to
be able to demonstrate that ina state like Utah and the way
that we work is something thatcan actually scale and replicate
across the country.
Ian Perterer (10:04):
Thank you.
Thank you for that insight and,Chris, you are with CK Finance
and I'm pretty sure I know whatthe CK stands for so why don't
you tell us a little bit aboutyour company, your background,
what you're doing and what your?
Chris Kramer (10:17):
plans are.
So I've been an independentconsultant now for a number of
years but I work with sort oftwo sets of clients, maybe three
.
One is at the national level.
I do a lot of work with the USDepartment of Energy and
Lawrence Berkeley National Lab.
The two of those work closelytogether doing energy-related
(10:38):
financing research across the 50states and District of Columbia
and other territories as well,across the 50 states and
District of Columbia and otherterritories as well, and try to
suss out some of the bestpractices around financing that
are going on in those states.
What's worked particularly well, what challenges have state
programs faced and how can wespread that information across
(11:00):
the 50 states so that lessonslearned are taken in by all of
the states and then programsthat are working well can be
replicated.
But then I also do work directlywith programs on the ground.
I worked, for example, for anumber of years with utility
energy efficiency programs inConnecticut, which had some of
their own financing programs,but also worked closely with the
(11:23):
Connecticut Green Bank.
I've worked with some of thefinancing financing programs but
also worked closely with theConnecticut Green Bank.
I've worked with some of thefinancing programs in California
.
If you're familiar with GoGreen Financing that's one of
their flagship green financingprograms and other state and
local programs like that.
So mostly I work on programdesign, advising on program
(11:44):
oversight how are things going,how can things be improved and
then to some degree also onevaluation, so kind of on the
back end, how you know how havethings gone, what are the
impacts of the programs and whatimprovements can be made.
Ian Perterer (11:58):
So, for people who are unfamiliar with green
lenders, what resources areavailable for them to learn
about the lenders in theircommunity or state?
Shawna Cuan (12:07):
Yeah, it's complicated, so it's helpful to
have a place to start right, andone of the things that I'm very
happy to say we're a foundingmember of is the Green Bank 50,
so the GB50.
So we're holding on to the name,we'll stick with it, but it is
a member-driven organization ofthe 50 plus state local,
regional green banks that areoperating throughout the
(12:28):
continental US, alaska, hawaiiand the territories, and so
that's a really great place tostart to understand what that
community lender green bankpresence is in your region and
if they have alignment betweenthe types of projects you have
and the kind of financing theyhave available.
As I mentioned, our focus isvery heavily on that housing
piece and we're doing a littlebit of distributed energy
(12:50):
generation as well, but some ofour peers are very focused in
other spaces, whether it'selectrified vehicles or it's
community solar, and so Istrongly recommend checking out
the GB50 and seeing how you canconnect with us through that
mechanism, because we're allinvolved on a regular basis in
communicating with the GB50.
And they're great in serving asa connector and really becoming
(13:14):
that network mode for all of usso that we can hopefully keep
on tackling all these needs andthen putting together some
really great projects.
Chris Kramer (13:22):
So, and I want to emphasize and Sean alluded to
this before as well but to bereally clear, green banks and
CDFIs work together all the time.
I think.
With utility rates going up andwith affordability becoming
more and more of a challenge,cdfis have really been there now
for a number of years, a numberof decades even, to help
(13:44):
low-income communities meetaffordability challenges, not
just in energy, but kind ofacross the board.
And so right now, when I thinkeverybody is kind of looking
around thinking, oh boy, how dowe reach these communities, how
do we make these projects asaffordable as they can be, and
also, how do we do itresponsibly?
(14:05):
And how do we reach thecommunities?
Who are our partners that mighthave those connections?
Cdfis are a great place to lookfor that type of work and I will
say there are a number of CDFIswho already are working in the
energy space.
My website, ckfinancingcom, hasa map of 127 green lending
(14:29):
programs that are run bydifferent CDFIs across the
country.
So this is an area thatcertainly can be expanding but
also has a great foundation now.
But you also can look up theCDFIs that are in your state or
area, and there are a numberthat serve multiple states as
well, and if they aren't doingspecific green lending, there's
(14:53):
a good chance that they're doinglending that covers
energy-related items in any case, and may be very open to a
conversation around how do weexpand on that to make these
projects even more affordable?
At the end of the day, I thinkone of the reasons financing is
so important right now is just,you know, fundamentally,
(15:14):
financing is there to help makeprojects more affordable.
That's really what we're herefor as an industry, and that's
only becoming more challenging,and so you know, please, please,
reach out.
Ian Perterer (15:28):
Absolutely, and you know I think one of the I
liked that you mentioned thatit's not an either, or that you
know a project could.
Essentially, you know,depending on the balance of what
the Green Bank does and whatthe CDFI does, there is the
opportunity.
So we talked about, you know,financial incentive stacking,
but you could do financiallending stacking on a specific
project.
Which leads me to a questionthat just kind of popped into my
(15:53):
head A lot of theirorganizations.
They've never worked or triedto apply for funding through a
green bank or a CDFI before.
If someone's listening to thispodcast afterwards and they
decide they want to look intosomething like this, what should
they be prepared to provide?
(16:14):
A CDFI or a green bank in orderto help them decide whether
they want to invest in thisspecific opportunity or project?
Let's start with Shawna.
Shawna Cuan (16:28):
Thanks, ian Gosh.
That's such a great questionand you know, in fact I was
working on sort of a go-no-golist on behalf of municipalities
, because we're having a reallysimilar conversation, like, well
, what do we even need to kindof get started right.
And that can be a prettydaunting question in and of
itself when perhaps you've neverdone any kind of financing
(16:49):
project, let alone an energyfinancing project, perhaps
you've never done any kind offinancing project, let alone an
energy financing project.
And one of the ways that what'sreally interesting and it goes
to the partnerships with CDFIsand it goes to where GreenMakes
are trying to operateincreasingly we're really also
trying to recognize the need fortechnical assistance, so not to
add even more jargon to it, butwe're acknowledging, you know,
energy projects inherently havea level of expertise that may
(17:12):
not be widely available, andthen you pair it with financing,
another level of expertise thatmay not be widely available.
So you're taking two differentindustries that have largely
been operating separately for avery long time, and then you're
asking them to talk to eachother, and that's a bit of a
challenging ask, and so we arereally trying to refine what you
(17:33):
need in order to be effectivewhen you come into a
conversation with us and one ofthe things that we're trying to
you know we're going to come upwith checklists and have all
those kinds of things but reallyfrom our perspective, it's very
valuable to know the details ofyour project.
What are you trying toaccomplish with that project,
what's your timeline for it,what work has already been done
(17:53):
on that project, what would youneed financing for?
And then who's really therecipient of that financing,
who's going to be the ultimateborrower?
Because then it's kind of alittle bit of a decision tree
matrix from there.
Right, if we're talking aboutworking with the municipality,
it's making sure they have theright authority to take on
financing and working with themthrough that process with maybe
(18:16):
an individual corporation orcompany.
We're going to want to look attheir financials, we're going to
want to look at any potentialcollateral needs, and so it does
ultimately depend.
But I realize I'm making itsound a little bit intimidating,
but really what I want to kindof encourage is just reach out
to start, and then many of usare prepared to say, yeah, we
get it.
This is kind of your first goat this.
(18:36):
Here's what we would look forfrom you, and really the
intention here is to be apartner and walk through that
process with you and not just besort of this wall that's really
inaccessible, but anopportunity to ask questions so
that we can answer them andreally be a resource beyond just
the financing.
We can kind of help answerthose types of questions too.
Ian Perterer (18:56):
And what about?
What about CDFIs, chris?
I'm kind of wondering, evenalmost in the back of my head
does that US Treasurydesignation make it a little bit
more intricate in terms of,like, your evaluation process
and what you have to go throughand prove and do the due
diligence on?
Chris Kramer (19:14):
Not as much as you would think.
The regulations around CDFIcertification are less around.
You know there are other typesof bank regulation that apply to
you know, kind of riskmitigation and things like that.
How much capital do you need onhand, what kinds of risks can
you take?
That's not the main focus ofthe oversight of CDFIs.
(19:37):
It's more around what I mean ofcourse there is.
You know they have to beprudent around all of those
things too.
But when we talk about thetreasury certification of CDFIs,
that's really more around whoare they serving and are they
serving the purpose that they'rereally set up to do?
So, if anything, actually it'sa plus, I would say, rather than
a restriction, that they areset up that way, because then
(20:00):
you can go in with someconfidence that, hey, this is a
partner that's really set up towork with me, even if I may have
some challenges.
And I want to just really echowhat Shana said, which is start
the conversation first.
I mean I can answer yourquestion and I can go through
some of the details.
But I think both GreenBanks andCD5s, one of the things they
(20:20):
share is they're really, reallygood.
I mean, of course you canalways find exceptions, but in
general they're really reallygood listeners and they really
want to work with you andthey're flexible.
It doesn't mean they'll justtake on any project, but they
want to find a way to makethings work.
They're not just cookie cuttertransactions.
They're willing to sort of say,okay, this sounds interesting,
(20:41):
it sounds like you're in theright place.
How do we get from A to Z?
So pick up the phone, send theemail, find out who your green
bank is, if you've got one, findout who your green bank is, if
you've got one, find out who theCDFIs are in your territory and
do the outreach CDFIs to Shawnapoint also provide a lot of
technical assistance.
So you don't have tonecessarily know everything from
(21:03):
the beginning.
I think the other thing I justwant to say briefly in the
answer to your question is justthinking about who the listeners
are.
You know there are folks whomay be reaching out because they
have a project and that's sortof one set of criteria.
You know how risky is thisproject, what are the sources of
funding, all those kinds ofthings.
(21:24):
There are also, I can imagine,some listeners who are a little
bit more involved at like theprogrammatic level, who might
want to have a conversationaround.
Look, I am either, you know,utility or utility contractor,
or just maybe a very successfulcontractor in an area, and I
would like to talk with youabout how to bring a portfolio
(21:44):
and certain types of projects toyou and how can we work
together to make that happen.
And I think both CDFIs andgreen banks are really
interested in having those kindsof conversations as well.
Ian Perterer (21:56):
I think what I find interesting and hopeful
about that is I think there areso many people who come when it
comes to the financingdiscussion based on their
personal experiences withfinancing and lending or
whatever really do think it'sgoing to be.
You know, a credit scores check,run down the list sort of
(22:17):
transaction where it sounds likeboth for CDFIs and Shana, for
the Green Bank of SustainableEnergy Finance, a large portion
of it is about the outcomes, andso we're both talking about
CDFIs and and and sustainedenergy finance.
You have this focus onunderserved communities and,
(22:39):
with everything going on in theworld right now, I think it's
important for us knowledge.
Usually one of the first thingsto take a hit is a program that
serves an underserved communitybecause in some cases, for
utilities or something like that, you're not in it to make the
money.
The way you are on a commercialproject or something like that,
if you're working with, like, adata center or something like
that where you know there'sgoing to be big money attached,
(23:01):
you're trying to serve yourcustomers, all of your customers
, right about what the marketlooks like, you know how do you
approach designing workablefinancial products specifically
for an underserved market.
Shawna Cuan (23:20):
Yeah, and it's a great question, ian, because you
touch on some of the challengesright.
It takes time, it takespatience, it takes trust
building, it takes authenticpartners that want to be there
for the long term.
And, to your point, that's notnecessarily profitable from a
near-term perspective, but thatdoesn't mean that it shouldn't
be done.
What's so valuable about thekind of work we're focused on is
(23:42):
it's really mission-orientedand mission-aligned, so we're
always going to be here to servethose communities.
That's why we exist in thefirst place, and you know, cdfis
share that with us and that'swhat makes it such a compelling
partnership between us and CDFIs.
And I would say that the marketsthat we have in Ut ah that have
been under surge are actuallypretty similar to what you see
around the country.
We have aging housinginfrastructure right, so we have
(24:06):
people who desperately needupgrade and maintenance to their
homes.
That hasn't happened perhaps indecades.
In some cases we have folksthat are paying really high
utility bills.
Fortunately, utah, we're not asbad as some states and we have
pretty low energy costs, butdisproportionately, a lot of our
communities are paying a highpercentage of their income
towards utility bills, and sothe way that we're really trying
(24:29):
to design products that workfor those markets is
understanding where those painpoints exist and where the gaps
in financing currently exist.
And some of the gaps in currentfinancing that's available is
it can be very traditional, itcan be a credit score, it can be
credit histories, and that canoften exclude homeowners,
(24:50):
households, families, justbecause of something that went
poorly maybe a couple of yearsago or something that was a
little bit out of their control.
And so we've been spending alot of time thinking about how
can we tackle that issue here inUtah.
And actually it goes to yourearlier question, ian, about
partnerships and specificallypartnerships between green banks
like us and CDFIs.
And we're actually working witha CDFI and they have a home
(25:12):
retrofit program called SELFthat is specifically tailored to
not use traditional financingcriteria like a credit score.
They actually look at thehomeowner's ability to repay,
and that was something thatreally worked for us, because
we're like, yes, that's what wehave an issue with and this is a
way to fix the gap.
(25:32):
So we're leveraging apartnership, they're bringing in
capital that we can deploy herein Utah, we're adding some of
our own capital into thatprogram and we're able to serve
a need in the long-term in Utah.
So it's really this very dynamicway of us being able to address
our need and what's exciting,too, is that we can continue to
evolve that product so, as we'redeveloping a relationship with
(25:55):
self and growing that and we'reseeing where the needs are in
Utah, for example, we have radonchallenges.
Ok, can we talk about how do wemitigate radon specifically in
homes, whereas that may not beas relevant a concern in other
communities?
So it's really about beingcreative and a lot of
partnerships, because there's alot of demand and there's not
(26:16):
enough capital.
So we really need to pool asmuch of this as we can and find
that alignment as much aspossible.
Ian Perterer (26:23):
And Chris just sticking with the same theme and
it actually is a natural nextstep in the conversation.
You know the underservedcommunities are often hard to
reach when it comes to enrollingthem in energy or financing
programs.
You know as being a CDFI andthis being an area of focus.
What engagement strategies haveyou seen for green banks and
(26:46):
community lenders andhistorically disadvantaged
communities that have beensuccessful in connecting people
in these communities to thesefinancial solutions?
Chris Kramer (27:16):
primarily to serve low-income communities, using
financing as well as technicalassistance as a tool, but not
just in energy, in fact.
Really, to be honest, althoughit's grown a lot, not primarily
at first in energy and so all ofthat groundwork has now been
done.
It's never done, but it hasbeen ongoing for about 30 years,
and that's not even countingsort of non-CDFI mission-driven
(27:39):
lenders before.
And so I think when we thinkabout outreach specifically
around energy, one of the greatreasons to partner with CDFIs is
that they have spent now a lotof time and resources
establishing those relationships, creating that kind of trust
(28:01):
and also tuning up theirunderwriting strategies so that
they know how to underwriteborrowers in low-income
communities in ways that areboth inclusive and prudent.
And so I think when you thinkabout coming to you know those
(28:24):
types of lenders and thosecommunities with energy projects
, you know you're already kindof coming to them.
You're coming to a space wherea lot of that work has been done
.
Now what you can encountersometimes is, you know, if you
think about it, sometimes Ithink about this, and I don't
(28:44):
know if Sean would agree withthis, but as a little bit of a
continuum or spectrum where kindof utilities are over on a
little bit more on the energyside.
Cv5s are a little bit more overon the lending side and green
banks, where kind of utilities,are over on a little bit more on
the energy side, cdfis are alittle bit more over on the
lending side and green banks arekind of in the middle.
What can happen with the CDFIssometimes is that they wonder,
(29:05):
they're not quite sure whetherthey can treat energy the same
way that they've treated theseother types of investments,
whether it's, you know, homelending, whether it's
multifamily lending, smallbusiness, and, as Sean said
earlier, you know, energysometimes has its own mystique
around it, in the same way thatfinancing does.
And so you may encounterlenders who think, oh, I don't
know whether I can.
You know, I've got 30 yearsunder my belt of kind of lending
(29:27):
to and partnering withlow-income communities.
But can I use those samestrategies?
Because maybe energy isdifferent.
And I think if you're an energyperson coming to those
communities, one of the mostvaluable things that you can do
actually is to help demystifyenergy.
You know, just in the same way,that I spend some of my time
trying to demystify financingit's not actually as complicated
as you might think, and etcetera.
(29:48):
The same can be true of energythat, yes, this is basically,
you know, let's just say, abuilding improvement project,
and you've lent on buildingimprovement projects all the
time and, yes, absolutely, youcan look at ability to pay in
similar ways.
Now it doesn't mean that youshouldn't take account of
perhaps some cash flow effectsof saving dollars on utility
(30:09):
bills and things like that.
But fundamentally, yes, youshould continue to use the
well-developed and prudentstrategies that you have and, in
fact, one of the reasons we'recoming to you as energy people
is because of all that work thatyou've done.
Ian Perterer (30:23):
Absolutely, and it reminds me of a comment that
was made by Marvaline Jones in acouple of podcasts ago and we
were talking about minoritydiverse suppliers and why
utilities want to work with themand sort of their unique
superpower.
And I think it does harken back, you know, Chris, to something
you were saying which isessentially, you know, a lot of
(30:44):
times the energy companies thatcome in they find these things
difficult because they just comein and expect to be able to
start talking to the communitywith trust and that's just not
what it is.
You know the superpower ofdiverse suppliers and CDFIs is
that they've been there a longtime.
You know these communities thatare historically, you know
they're used to people coming in, getting what they need and
(31:06):
leaving.
Know that these people are hereto stay, they are part of the
community, they're going to keepit in the community and I think
that is such a powerful thingthat people should not discount
and really think about heavilywhen they're thinking about
working with CDFIs and GreenPinks, as they've done all of
this groundwork to gain thattrust.
(31:28):
So I did mention that, with allthe policy changes and talking
about how it is hitting theunderserved communities that you
do work with.
How do you see the roles of yourorganization in the marketplace
evolving, let's say, over thenext five to 10 years?
Let's just say, whatever thetrajectory is today it kind of
(31:50):
stays that course.
What does that look like foryou?
And also, what are you hearingfrom your stakeholders on the
ground?
What are they telling you rightnow?
Shawna, let's start with you.
Shawna Cuan (32:03):
Sure, and you know, understandably, like, what
we're hearing on the ground fromstakeholders is that
uncertainty kind of sucks,Whether we're talking about
large infrastructure projects orwe're just talking about, like
an HVAC replacement.
It's hard when uncertainty isintroduced into our community
because you don't know, hey, isthe utility rebate going to be
(32:25):
available, are tax credits goingto be available, or, you know,
maybe this grant program is notgoing to go away, and so
uncertainty can breed a lot ofconcern and people can slow down
right, like that's anotherthing.
We're hearing from stakeholders, some who can afford to,
they're like, well, we're goingto kind of wait and see what
happens.
And then others are sort oflike, well, the window's closing
(32:46):
, we're going to race ahead.
So we're seeing a lot of thosedifferent kinds of dynamics
playing out right now and ofcourse it's concerning and of
course my heart goes out toseeing, like, what's happening
on in our communities on theground, because there's a lot of
frustration as well around thisuncertainty and around a little
bit of a lot of the disruptionthat's been happening.
(33:08):
And so where we're really seeingour role is actually something
that we is.
Why we wanted to do this in thefirst place is to continue to
fill that gap, continue to flex,to be that need, and we very
intentionally chose to be anonprofit because that affords
us some agility and flexibilityin pivoting our financing and
(33:29):
our products to where our marketis right now we ultimately can
say hey.
If we need to add, if we needto adjust these terms because
tax credits are a little bitunclear we have the authority
and we have the ability to makethose kinds of adjustments and
be here in a way that perhapsthat counterbalances some of the
(33:49):
uncertainty.
It's not perfect, it's notgoing to be perfect, but we
really see our role as that gapfiller and then we'll continue
to fill that gap.
As we are engaging with ourcommunities, we're sharing
what's the new thing that'sneeded, what's the new area that
needs to be addressed, andthat'll be how we continue to
add value to our community.
Chris Kramer (34:26):
I mean honestly, I think that over time, over the
next five years and 10 years,it's just affordability is just
going to become more and more anurgent need to address.
And you know, cdfis really arethere and green banks really as
kind of the front line of that,and GreenBanks really is kind of
the front line of that.
Now, we can't create magic, butwe'll do everything we can to
try to make projects feasible.
(34:46):
And I think the other part thatties into that for me is that
there's going to be a shift inthe kinds of projects that need
to be financed.
In the kinds of projects thatneed to be financed.
We will need to continue to doall of the weatherization and
those kinds of things that we'vebeen doing, but we're going to
need to do more electrificationand we're really going to need
to do more resilience.
That's just reality.
(35:07):
And resilience is particularlytricky.
And electrification also,because the returns look
different than they do ontraditional efficiency projects.
And yet you know, in a broadsense, if you're not doing them,
then you're really leavingpeople in the lurch.
I, you know, based in Vermont,we've had serious flooding that
(35:32):
really affected our communitiesover the last couple of years,
and if you were at ESP Nationalin Arizona and it was 90 in
January and they were talkingabout the heat waves over the
last few summers and thehundreds of people who you know
didn't make it through thesummer.
I mean, those kinds of projectsare no longer discretionary and
so affordability is not a niceto have, it's a need to have,
(35:56):
and that's why we're here and wehave the resources we have.
But we'll do everything we can.
Ian Perterer (36:05):
Yeah, there's so many pressures.
I think there's the pressure ofuncertainty mixed with the
pressure of certainty in theclimate challenges that we're
going to face.
But I think, if I could sum itup, just to borrow a word from
you, Shawna and Ross, fromFriends, that we're all just
going to have to pivot.
That's what it's going to be.
We're just going to have to beable to pivot and pivot fast.
(36:27):
So, even with all this stuffthat's going on kind of want to
end this on a hopeful note whatkeeps you optimistic about the
future of the industry?
I think, for me, taking awayfrom this conversation, what I'm
really hearing and what makesme optimistic, is that, yes, the
underserved communities arereally feeling the pressure
(36:47):
right now, especially with allof the uncertainty that's
happening in the financing arenaright now, but that we have
these resources CDFIs andGreenbanks that are out there
that can step in, pivot and helpbe a reliable resource to turn
to in these times of uncertainty.
And so I think it's to me thatgives me hope that we're not
(37:10):
stranded out in the middle ofthe ocean with no paddles.
It's, we're not.
We're not stranded out in themiddle of the ocean with no
paddles.
We've got we've got someoptions that we can turn to, but
, chris, like let's start withyou.
What, what are you optimisticabout?
Chris Kramer (37:23):
I just think, and I'll I'll, you know, stick with
the CDFIs here for just a second.
The CDFI industry, you know I'mI started there but I've been
an independent consultant for awhile and every time I come back
to a group of CDFIs it's justso reinvigorating.
I'll give a shout out to theorganization Inclusive the word,
(37:43):
but without the E at the endand their organization of CDFI
credit unions.
And they went to their nationalconference earlier this year.
Earlier this year, and you know, even with all the challenges
that are going on kind ofnationally right now, all of the
attendees, really to a person,were just so dedicated to
(38:04):
figuring this out and, you know,kind of recommitting to doing
what they could for theircommunities.
And it was just so heartening tosee that because, honestly, I
didn't know what I was going tofind.
I sort of thought, well, youknow, given how challenging
things are, you know, maybepeople are throwing up their
hands, and it really didn't feellike that at all.
(38:24):
It felt like, okay, we're usedto this.
We've spent decades working inlow-income and underserved
communities.
You know, challenge isn't newto us.
And so here's the next thingand how do we keep moving?
And that really helped renew myoptimism.
Shawna Cuan (38:43):
I love that so much , chris, and honestly, that is
something that I share with myGreen Bank colleagues and my
peers I mean, you know, acrossother states.
It doesn't really matter whatyour you know priorities are.
We are all driven towardstrying to help improve quality
of life right and make betterlives for the people that we
call part of our community, partof our home, our neighbors.
(39:05):
All of that, and you know whatkind of keeps me excited at the
really really big scale is stillseeing all these really large
market dynamics occurring right,like we really can't deny that
baseload clean energy renewablesare at cost parity.
We can't deny there's growingdemand for electrification.
There's just simply forces thatare moving us forward.
(39:26):
There will be obstacles, therewill be roadblocks, but it is
still moving forward regardless.
And that gives me that sort ofhigh level excitement.
And then at the sort of reallypersonal excitement for me is
we've been increasingly likeconnecting with folks across the
space right, we have partnersand communities in a lot of
(39:48):
different ways, and what I'vebeen incredibly touched by and
shocked by, honestly, is howmany people just said how can I
help?
What you're doing is reallyexciting.
I want to see it be successful.
What can I do to help?
And we've had a number ofpeople volunteer their time,
their expertise, ideas just tohelp advance this mission,
(40:10):
because it's clearly resonantwith so many people within our
communities and that just givesme so much fuel for continuing
this forward, because it can getchallenging, it can get really
hard, but at the same time Itake a step back and I'm like,
oh my god, there's there's allthis support, there's all this
enthusiasm and camaraderie forwhat we're doing and there's a
lot of momentum, and so thatthat really kind of keeps me
optimistic and that's really forme, like what the excitement
(40:33):
optimism comes for for me.
Ian Perterer (40:37):
Absolutely, and that's the power of community.
Well, it is certainly aninteresting time to be working
in clean energy and especiallythe lending space, so I want to
thank you so much, Shawna andChris, for joining us today and
for helping our listeners betterunderstand some of the key
issues that are impactingclimate finance, and also diving
into the world of CDFIs andgreen banks.
(40:58):
I think we all learned a lothere today.
You helped demystify a lot ofthings for me, and you're both
doing great work, and I'mlooking forward to seeing how
the climate finance landscapecontinues to evolve For our
listeners.
If you're interested inlearning more, check out our
show notes.
We'll have links to theresources mentioned during our
conversation.
And that's it for this episode.
We'll see you next time on theEnergy Beat podcast, and thank
(41:19):
you so much, chris and Shawna.
Thank you.
Shawna Cuan (41:22):
Thank you.
Hey there and welcome back to the Energy Beat
podcast.
Today we're talking about money, specifically climate finance.
With major legislative andregulatory changes reshaping how
money flows or doesn't intoclean energy, questions of who
finances what and how are frontand center like never before.
Two of the players steppinginto this conversation are green
(00:32):
banks and community developmentfinancial institutions, or
CDFIs.
They are emerging as powerfuloptions in the climate finance
world that you may or may not befamiliar with.
That's why, in today's episode,we're digging into their role
in this fast-changing landscape.
We'll cover how green banks arehelping channel investments
into clean energy, how CDFIs areexpanding access for
(00:55):
communities and businesses.
Traditional lenders often missthe unique role both play in
supporting vulnerable energyprograms and the challenges and
opportunities ahead as climatefinance continues to evolve.
So to help unpack it all, I'mjoined by two fantastic guests
Shawna Cuan, ceo of SustainEnergy Finance, a Salt Lake
(01:16):
City-based green bank, and ChrisKramer of CK Finance, who's
worked extensively with CDFIsand energy organizations
nationwide.
So let's dive in, Shawna andChris.
Welcome to the show, Shawna.
How are things in Salt LakeCity?
We were just there recently atour conference.
Shawna Cuan (01:39):
Thanks so much, ian .
Really excited to be hereThings in Salt Lake are very
active, as you just saw with theAESP conference and very
excited to see where we're goingto go next.
Ian Perterer (01:51):
Yeah, and Chris, you're joining us from the East
Coast.
We're on the East Coast, andhow are you today?
Chris Kramer (01:57):
I'm doing well.
Thanks very much for having meon the podcast.
I split my time between Vermontand New Hampshire.
I'm currently in New Hampshiretoday, but things are active in
the Northeast as always.
Ian Perterer (02:10):
I'd like to start off with just a very, very basic
question and, Shawna, I guessI'll direct this one at you Can
you explain what a green bank isand what kind of work they do?
Yeah, absolutely.
And to be fair, you know, it'skind of one of those issues
where I think we pick the namefirst and then we started
defining what we do, and thenwe're like, oh, it's not really
the best way to describe what weare and what we do, but the
(02:33):
name is stuck, so we're kind ofworking with it as best we can.
And what's interesting aboutgreen banks is it's become this
umbrella term for lenders thatoperate in a couple of different
ways.
So there's a couple of greenbanks, many of which are at the
state level, some are at theregional level, some are local,
some are national in scope, andso we're kind of a big old
(02:58):
variety of different type ofentities.
And then, to further confusethings a little bit, some of us
are actually public entities orquasi public entities and some
of us are non-profitinstitutions.
But the thing that doescollectively bring us all
together is that we areestablished really with the
vision and purpose financingenergy projects and related
(03:19):
projects, and that relatedprojects category is getting a
little bit bigger and bigger andbigger, just as we see this
interconnection of energy withso many other facets of need
within our relative communities.
But I think the other thingthat's important to understand
with green banks, and what makesus a little bit different than
what might come to mindimmediately when you hear the
term green bank, is that we'reactually a bank.
(03:40):
So again, it's a terminology,it's something that we live with
now, but it's not necessarilyreflective of exactly who we are
.
So a typical traditional bankactually takes a deposit right,
you think of a brick and mortarbuilding.
You go there, you deposit witha teller or you go to an ATM.
We don't do that, so we don'thold deposits, but we do end up
(04:02):
investing our capital intoprojects and then that capital
gets paid back to us and then wereinvest it into projects with
the idea that we're providingthis perpetual long-term support
to our relative communities.
So hopefully that clarifies alittle bit about the terminology
on green banks and set some ofthe stage for today's
conversation.
Okay, and then, Chris, you work with green banks
(04:24):
, but you also work withcommunity development financial
institutions, or CDFIs.
What makes a lender a CDFI, andhow are they similar or
different to a green bank?
Chris Kramer (04:47):
Cdfi stands for Community Development Financial
Institution and there are acouple of things that make them
sort of what they are.
Probably the most fundamentalis that term community.
So they are set up to invest inlow income and underserved
communities and they can take acouple of different forms.
I think often when people thinkof CDFIs they think it's a
little bit more of like aninvestment bank or even venture
(05:09):
capital, where they're notactually taking deposits but
they do have funding on theirbalance sheet that they can
invest.
But there are also a number ofcredit unions that have CDFI
certification as well and theydo take deposits, but they are
set up specifically to servelow-income communities as well,
and they do take deposits, butthey are set up specifically to
serve low-income communities aswell.
They really run the gamutacross market sectors.
(05:31):
So they cover single families,small business multifamily is a
big part of the industry andthey cover both the building
sector as well as the smallbusiness sector.
So you'll see a lot ofinvestments in homes and
business-owned buildings,community nonprofit buildings
(05:53):
and a lot of multifamilybuildings.
And then you'll also see CDFIsthat invest in small business
growth as well.
Ian Perterer (06:02):
Okay, perfect.
So it sounds like there is acertification component to that
right.
You can't just spring up anddecide that you're going to be a
CDFI one day.
There's a rigorous vetting andprocess that people have to go
through in order to get thatdesignation.
Chris Kramer (06:17):
That's right and I'm glad you followed up on that
, because it's a US Treasurycertification and actually not
only do you have to be certifiedinitially, but you have to be
recertified on an annual basis,and part of that certification
has to do with where and howyou're investing, but part of it
also has to do with whatadditional community services,
technical assistance, otherkinds of community activities
(06:40):
you're carrying out.
So, unlike a traditional bank,you have some additional
requirements in order to meetthat certification on an ongoing
basis.
Ian Perterer (06:50):
Perfect, thank you .
Thank you for clarifying that,okay.
So now that we've got a lay ofthe land out of the way, I think
it's kind of fundamental sothat our listeners understand
your backgrounds and whereyou're coming from and what
you're going to bring to theconversation today.
Shawna, you work for SustainEnergy Finance, which is a green
bank, so tell us about yourorganization.
(07:10):
You're relatively new.
You were founded in 2023.
So can you tell us a little bitabout that and what some of
your organizational goals are?
Shawna Cuan (07:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
I appreciate the question and,just as a little bit of
background, I come from theenergy policy space and I've
been working in Utah for about10 years now and I started out
actually in the governor'soffice of energy development,
and financing has always been aneed in Utah.
We have a lot of opportunity inour space and we also are a
very business oriented state, soincreasingly, financing is just
(07:42):
one of those solution setsthat's very attractive within
our state and is somethingthat's really viable over the
longer term.
And when I was in thegovernor's office we helped pass
the CPACE legislation Somefolks may be familiar with that
commercial property assessedclean energy.
We had a revolving loan fund,and so financing was just
something that became more andmore relevant in the kind of
(08:03):
work we were doing.
Financing was just somethingthat became more and more
relevant in the kind of work wewere doing, and while I was
there I was like gosh, it'd begreat if we could have some kind
of lending entity in a muchmore comprehensive way.
And I had the opportunity acouple of years ago when I met
my co-founder, sean, to actuallyput some effort into this and
we had started to see a lot thisTrinity Lender Green Bank model
(08:24):
take the form of nonprofits andwe're like, huh, that's really
interesting because it providessome agility and flexibility to
how to tackle these issues andthe way that Utah is.
It's supportive of the concept,but it's maybe not going to be
the type of state that's goingto stand up its own green bank
and then capitalize it directly.
So we're like maybe this isreally the opportunity to move
(08:45):
forward and stand something likethis up.
And so two years ago, like yousaid, ian, we stood up a
sustained energy finance as anonprofit institution.
And in the near term, what we'rereally focused on is addressing
the nexus of energy andaffordable housing.
Utah is not unique.
We have a major affordablehousing crisis, but we already
(09:05):
have we're already 50,000affordable housing units short,
and it's just going to get worse.
Our population is expected todouble and so affordability and
housing are just you know verymuch at a crisis point for us
and that's where we have thegreatest amount of need.
So what we're focused on thenear term is deploying our
capital into residentialretrofit, into new build for
(09:27):
multifamily, and really focusingon how these types of projects
can have energy efficiencycomponents.
They can be more resilient,they can be healthier and safer
is how we can help transform ourcommunity here in Utah bringing
in other fellow lenders likeCDFIs and credit unions to
(09:48):
Chris's point bringing in ourtraditional banks as well, and
helping bring a lot of morecapital into our market, because
our demand is not going to begoing away and we really want to
be able to demonstrate that ina state like Utah and the way
that we work is something thatcan actually scale and replicate
across the country.
Ian Perterer (10:04):
Thank you.
Thank you for that insight and,Chris, you are with CK Finance
and I'm pretty sure I know whatthe CK stands for so why don't
you tell us a little bit aboutyour company, your background,
what you're doing and what your?
Chris Kramer (10:17):
plans are.
So I've been an independentconsultant now for a number of
years but I work with sort oftwo sets of clients, maybe three
.
One is at the national level.
I do a lot of work with the USDepartment of Energy and
Lawrence Berkeley National Lab.
The two of those work closelytogether doing energy-related
(10:38):
financing research across the 50states and District of Columbia
and other territories as well,across the 50 states and
District of Columbia and otherterritories as well, and try to
suss out some of the bestpractices around financing that
are going on in those states.
What's worked particularly well, what challenges have state
programs faced and how can wespread that information across
(11:00):
the 50 states so that lessonslearned are taken in by all of
the states and then programsthat are working well can be
replicated.
But then I also do work directlywith programs on the ground.
I worked, for example, for anumber of years with utility
energy efficiency programs inConnecticut, which had some of
their own financing programs,but also worked closely with the
(11:23):
Connecticut Green Bank.
I've worked with some of thefinancing financing programs but
also worked closely with theConnecticut Green Bank.
I've worked with some of thefinancing programs in California
.
If you're familiar with GoGreen Financing that's one of
their flagship green financingprograms and other state and
local programs like that.
So mostly I work on programdesign, advising on program
(11:44):
oversight how are things going,how can things be improved and
then to some degree also onevaluation, so kind of on the
back end, how you know how havethings gone, what are the
impacts of the programs and whatimprovements can be made.
Ian Perterer (11:58):
So, for people who are unfamiliar with green
lenders, what resources areavailable for them to learn
about the lenders in theircommunity or state?
Shawna Cuan (12:07):
Yeah, it's complicated, so it's helpful to
have a place to start right, andone of the things that I'm very
happy to say we're a foundingmember of is the Green Bank 50,
so the GB50.
So we're holding on to the name,we'll stick with it, but it is
a member-driven organization ofthe 50 plus state local,
regional green banks that areoperating throughout the
(12:28):
continental US, alaska, hawaiiand the territories, and so
that's a really great place tostart to understand what that
community lender green bankpresence is in your region and
if they have alignment betweenthe types of projects you have
and the kind of financing theyhave available.
As I mentioned, our focus isvery heavily on that housing
piece and we're doing a littlebit of distributed energy
(12:50):
generation as well, but some ofour peers are very focused in
other spaces, whether it'selectrified vehicles or it's
community solar, and so Istrongly recommend checking out
the GB50 and seeing how you canconnect with us through that
mechanism, because we're allinvolved on a regular basis in
communicating with the GB50.
And they're great in serving asa connector and really becoming
(13:14):
that network mode for all of usso that we can hopefully keep
on tackling all these needs andthen putting together some
really great projects.
Chris Kramer (13:22):
So, and I want to emphasize and Sean alluded to
this before as well but to bereally clear, green banks and
CDFIs work together all the time.
I think.
With utility rates going up andwith affordability becoming
more and more of a challenge,cdfis have really been there now
for a number of years, a numberof decades even, to help
(13:44):
low-income communities meetaffordability challenges, not
just in energy, but kind ofacross the board.
And so right now, when I thinkeverybody is kind of looking
around thinking, oh boy, how dowe reach these communities, how
do we make these projects asaffordable as they can be, and
also, how do we do itresponsibly?
(14:05):
And how do we reach thecommunities?
Who are our partners that mighthave those connections?
Cdfis are a great place to lookfor that type of work and I will
say there are a number of CDFIswho already are working in the
energy space.
My website, ckfinancingcom, hasa map of 127 green lending
(14:29):
programs that are run bydifferent CDFIs across the
country.
So this is an area thatcertainly can be expanding but
also has a great foundation now.
But you also can look up theCDFIs that are in your state or
area, and there are a numberthat serve multiple states as
well, and if they aren't doingspecific green lending, there's
(14:53):
a good chance that they're doinglending that covers
energy-related items in any case, and may be very open to a
conversation around how do weexpand on that to make these
projects even more affordable?
At the end of the day, I thinkone of the reasons financing is
so important right now is just,you know, fundamentally,
(15:14):
financing is there to help makeprojects more affordable.
That's really what we're herefor as an industry, and that's
only becoming more challenging,and so you know, please, please,
reach out.
Ian Perterer (15:28):
Absolutely, and you know I think one of the I
liked that you mentioned thatit's not an either, or that you
know a project could.
Essentially, you know,depending on the balance of what
the Green Bank does and whatthe CDFI does, there is the
opportunity.
So we talked about, you know,financial incentive stacking,
but you could do financiallending stacking on a specific
project.
Which leads me to a questionthat just kind of popped into my
(15:53):
head A lot of theirorganizations.
They've never worked or triedto apply for funding through a
green bank or a CDFI before.
If someone's listening to thispodcast afterwards and they
decide they want to look intosomething like this, what should
they be prepared to provide?
(16:14):
A CDFI or a green bank in orderto help them decide whether
they want to invest in thisspecific opportunity or project?
Let's start with Shawna.
Shawna Cuan (16:28):
Thanks, ian Gosh.
That's such a great questionand you know, in fact I was
working on sort of a go-no-golist on behalf of municipalities
, because we're having a reallysimilar conversation, like, well
, what do we even need to kindof get started right.
And that can be a prettydaunting question in and of
itself when perhaps you've neverdone any kind of financing
(16:49):
project, let alone an energyfinancing project, perhaps
you've never done any kind offinancing project, let alone an
energy financing project.
And one of the ways that what'sreally interesting and it goes
to the partnerships with CDFIsand it goes to where GreenMakes
are trying to operateincreasingly we're really also
trying to recognize the need fortechnical assistance, so not to
add even more jargon to it, butwe're acknowledging, you know,
energy projects inherently havea level of expertise that may
(17:12):
not be widely available, andthen you pair it with financing,
another level of expertise thatmay not be widely available.
So you're taking two differentindustries that have largely
been operating separately for avery long time, and then you're
asking them to talk to eachother, and that's a bit of a
challenging ask, and so we arereally trying to refine what you
(17:33):
need in order to be effectivewhen you come into a
conversation with us and one ofthe things that we're trying to
you know we're going to come upwith checklists and have all
those kinds of things but reallyfrom our perspective, it's very
valuable to know the details ofyour project.
What are you trying toaccomplish with that project,
what's your timeline for it,what work has already been done
(17:53):
on that project, what would youneed financing for?
And then who's really therecipient of that financing,
who's going to be the ultimateborrower?
Because then it's kind of alittle bit of a decision tree
matrix from there.
Right, if we're talking aboutworking with the municipality,
it's making sure they have theright authority to take on
financing and working with themthrough that process with maybe
(18:16):
an individual corporation orcompany.
We're going to want to look attheir financials, we're going to
want to look at any potentialcollateral needs, and so it does
ultimately depend.
But I realize I'm making itsound a little bit intimidating,
but really what I want to kindof encourage is just reach out
to start, and then many of usare prepared to say, yeah, we
get it.
This is kind of your first goat this.
(18:36):
Here's what we would look forfrom you, and really the
intention here is to be apartner and walk through that
process with you and not just besort of this wall that's really
inaccessible, but anopportunity to ask questions so
that we can answer them andreally be a resource beyond just
the financing.
We can kind of help answerthose types of questions too.
Ian Perterer (18:56):
And what about?
What about CDFIs, chris?
I'm kind of wondering, evenalmost in the back of my head
does that US Treasurydesignation make it a little bit
more intricate in terms of,like, your evaluation process
and what you have to go throughand prove and do the due
diligence on?
Chris Kramer (19:14):
Not as much as you would think.
The regulations around CDFIcertification are less around.
You know there are other typesof bank regulation that apply to
you know, kind of riskmitigation and things like that.
How much capital do you need onhand, what kinds of risks can
you take?
That's not the main focus ofthe oversight of CDFIs.
(19:37):
It's more around what I mean ofcourse there is.
You know they have to beprudent around all of those
things too.
But when we talk about thetreasury certification of CDFIs,
that's really more around whoare they serving and are they
serving the purpose that they'rereally set up to do?
So, if anything, actually it'sa plus, I would say, rather than
a restriction, that they areset up that way, because then
(20:00):
you can go in with someconfidence that, hey, this is a
partner that's really set up towork with me, even if I may have
some challenges.
And I want to just really echowhat Shana said, which is start
the conversation first.
I mean I can answer yourquestion and I can go through
some of the details.
But I think both GreenBanks andCD5s, one of the things they
(20:20):
share is they're really, reallygood.
I mean, of course you canalways find exceptions, but in
general they're really reallygood listeners and they really
want to work with you andthey're flexible.
It doesn't mean they'll justtake on any project, but they
want to find a way to makethings work.
They're not just cookie cuttertransactions.
They're willing to sort of say,okay, this sounds interesting,
(20:41):
it sounds like you're in theright place.
How do we get from A to Z?
So pick up the phone, send theemail, find out who your green
bank is, if you've got one, findout who your green bank is, if
you've got one, find out who theCDFIs are in your territory and
do the outreach CDFIs to Shawnapoint also provide a lot of
technical assistance.
So you don't have tonecessarily know everything from
(21:03):
the beginning.
I think the other thing I justwant to say briefly in the
answer to your question is justthinking about who the listeners
are.
You know there are folks whomay be reaching out because they
have a project and that's sortof one set of criteria.
You know how risky is thisproject, what are the sources of
funding, all those kinds ofthings.
(21:24):
There are also, I can imagine,some listeners who are a little
bit more involved at like theprogrammatic level, who might
want to have a conversationaround.
Look, I am either, you know,utility or utility contractor,
or just maybe a very successfulcontractor in an area, and I
would like to talk with youabout how to bring a portfolio
(21:44):
and certain types of projects toyou and how can we work
together to make that happen.
And I think both CDFIs andgreen banks are really
interested in having those kindsof conversations as well.
Ian Perterer (21:56):
I think what I find interesting and hopeful
about that is I think there areso many people who come when it
comes to the financingdiscussion based on their
personal experiences withfinancing and lending or
whatever really do think it'sgoing to be.
You know, a credit scores check,run down the list sort of
(22:17):
transaction where it sounds likeboth for CDFIs and Shana, for
the Green Bank of SustainableEnergy Finance, a large portion
of it is about the outcomes, andso we're both talking about
CDFIs and and and sustainedenergy finance.
You have this focus onunderserved communities and,
(22:39):
with everything going on in theworld right now, I think it's
important for us knowledge.
Usually one of the first thingsto take a hit is a program that
serves an underserved communitybecause in some cases, for
utilities or something like that, you're not in it to make the
money.
The way you are on a commercialproject or something like that,
if you're working with, like, adata center or something like
that where you know there'sgoing to be big money attached,
(23:01):
you're trying to serve yourcustomers, all of your customers
, right about what the marketlooks like, you know how do you
approach designing workablefinancial products specifically
for an underserved market.
Shawna Cuan (23:20):
Yeah, and it's a great question, ian, because you
touch on some of the challengesright.
It takes time, it takespatience, it takes trust
building, it takes authenticpartners that want to be there
for the long term.
And, to your point, that's notnecessarily profitable from a
near-term perspective, but thatdoesn't mean that it shouldn't
be done.
What's so valuable about thekind of work we're focused on is
(23:42):
it's really mission-orientedand mission-aligned, so we're
always going to be here to servethose communities.
That's why we exist in thefirst place, and you know, cdfis
share that with us and that'swhat makes it such a compelling
partnership between us and CDFIs.
And I would say that the marketsthat we have in Ut ah that have
been under surge are actuallypretty similar to what you see
around the country.
We have aging housinginfrastructure right, so we have
(24:06):
people who desperately needupgrade and maintenance to their
homes.
That hasn't happened perhaps indecades.
In some cases we have folksthat are paying really high
utility bills.
Fortunately, utah, we're not asbad as some states and we have
pretty low energy costs, butdisproportionately, a lot of our
communities are paying a highpercentage of their income
towards utility bills, and sothe way that we're really trying
(24:29):
to design products that workfor those markets is
understanding where those painpoints exist and where the gaps
in financing currently exist.
And some of the gaps in currentfinancing that's available is
it can be very traditional, itcan be a credit score, it can be
credit histories, and that canoften exclude homeowners,
(24:50):
households, families, justbecause of something that went
poorly maybe a couple of yearsago or something that was a
little bit out of their control.
And so we've been spending alot of time thinking about how
can we tackle that issue here inUtah.
And actually it goes to yourearlier question, ian, about
partnerships and specificallypartnerships between green banks
like us and CDFIs.
And we're actually working witha CDFI and they have a home
(25:12):
retrofit program called SELFthat is specifically tailored to
not use traditional financingcriteria like a credit score.
They actually look at thehomeowner's ability to repay,
and that was something thatreally worked for us, because
we're like, yes, that's what wehave an issue with and this is a
way to fix the gap.
(25:32):
So we're leveraging apartnership, they're bringing in
capital that we can deploy herein Utah, we're adding some of
our own capital into thatprogram and we're able to serve
a need in the long-term in Utah.
So it's really this very dynamicway of us being able to address
our need and what's exciting,too, is that we can continue to
evolve that product so, as we'redeveloping a relationship with
(25:55):
self and growing that and we'reseeing where the needs are in
Utah, for example, we have radonchallenges.
Ok, can we talk about how do wemitigate radon specifically in
homes, whereas that may not beas relevant a concern in other
communities?
So it's really about beingcreative and a lot of
partnerships, because there's alot of demand and there's not
(26:16):
enough capital.
So we really need to pool asmuch of this as we can and find
that alignment as much aspossible.
Ian Perterer (26:23):
And Chris just sticking with the same theme and
it actually is a natural nextstep in the conversation.
You know the underservedcommunities are often hard to
reach when it comes to enrollingthem in energy or financing
programs.
You know as being a CDFI andthis being an area of focus.
What engagement strategies haveyou seen for green banks and
(26:46):
community lenders andhistorically disadvantaged
communities that have beensuccessful in connecting people
in these communities to thesefinancial solutions?
Chris Kramer (27:16):
primarily to serve low-income communities, using
financing as well as technicalassistance as a tool, but not
just in energy, in fact.
Really, to be honest, althoughit's grown a lot, not primarily
at first in energy and so all ofthat groundwork has now been
done.
It's never done, but it hasbeen ongoing for about 30 years,
and that's not even countingsort of non-CDFI mission-driven
(27:39):
lenders before.
And so I think when we thinkabout outreach specifically
around energy, one of the greatreasons to partner with CDFIs is
that they have spent now a lotof time and resources
establishing those relationships, creating that kind of trust
(28:01):
and also tuning up theirunderwriting strategies so that
they know how to underwriteborrowers in low-income
communities in ways that areboth inclusive and prudent.
And so I think when you thinkabout coming to you know those
(28:24):
types of lenders and thosecommunities with energy projects
, you know you're already kindof coming to them.
You're coming to a space wherea lot of that work has been done
.
Now what you can encountersometimes is, you know, if you
think about it, sometimes Ithink about this, and I don't
(28:44):
know if Sean would agree withthis, but as a little bit of a
continuum or spectrum where kindof utilities are over on a
little bit more on the energyside.
Cv5s are a little bit more overon the lending side and green
banks, where kind of utilities,are over on a little bit more on
the energy side, cdfis are alittle bit more over on the
lending side and green banks arekind of in the middle.
What can happen with the CDFIssometimes is that they wonder,
(29:05):
they're not quite sure whetherthey can treat energy the same
way that they've treated theseother types of investments,
whether it's, you know, homelending, whether it's
multifamily lending, smallbusiness, and, as Sean said
earlier, you know, energysometimes has its own mystique
around it, in the same way thatfinancing does.
And so you may encounterlenders who think, oh, I don't
know whether I can.
You know, I've got 30 yearsunder my belt of kind of lending
(29:27):
to and partnering withlow-income communities.
But can I use those samestrategies?
Because maybe energy isdifferent.
And I think if you're an energyperson coming to those
communities, one of the mostvaluable things that you can do
actually is to help demystifyenergy.
You know, just in the same way,that I spend some of my time
trying to demystify financingit's not actually as complicated
as you might think, and etcetera.
(29:48):
The same can be true of energythat, yes, this is basically,
you know, let's just say, abuilding improvement project,
and you've lent on buildingimprovement projects all the
time and, yes, absolutely, youcan look at ability to pay in
similar ways.
Now it doesn't mean that youshouldn't take account of
perhaps some cash flow effectsof saving dollars on utility
(30:09):
bills and things like that.
But fundamentally, yes, youshould continue to use the
well-developed and prudentstrategies that you have and, in
fact, one of the reasons we'recoming to you as energy people
is because of all that work thatyou've done.
Ian Perterer (30:23):
Absolutely, and it reminds me of a comment that
was made by Marvaline Jones in acouple of podcasts ago and we
were talking about minoritydiverse suppliers and why
utilities want to work with themand sort of their unique
superpower.
And I think it does harken back, you know, Chris, to something
you were saying which isessentially, you know, a lot of
(30:44):
times the energy companies thatcome in they find these things
difficult because they just comein and expect to be able to
start talking to the communitywith trust and that's just not
what it is.
You know the superpower ofdiverse suppliers and CDFIs is
that they've been there a longtime.
You know these communities thatare historically, you know
they're used to people coming in, getting what they need and
(31:06):
leaving.
Know that these people are hereto stay, they are part of the
community, they're going to keepit in the community and I think
that is such a powerful thingthat people should not discount
and really think about heavilywhen they're thinking about
working with CDFIs and GreenPinks, as they've done all of
this groundwork to gain thattrust.
(31:28):
So I did mention that, with allthe policy changes and talking
about how it is hitting theunderserved communities that you
do work with.
How do you see the roles of yourorganization in the marketplace
evolving, let's say, over thenext five to 10 years?
Let's just say, whatever thetrajectory is today it kind of
(31:50):
stays that course.
What does that look like foryou?
And also, what are you hearingfrom your stakeholders on the
ground?
What are they telling you rightnow?
Shawna, let's start with you.
Shawna Cuan (32:03):
Sure, and you know, understandably, like, what
we're hearing on the ground fromstakeholders is that
uncertainty kind of sucks,Whether we're talking about
large infrastructure projects orwe're just talking about, like
an HVAC replacement.
It's hard when uncertainty isintroduced into our community
because you don't know, hey, isthe utility rebate going to be
(32:25):
available, are tax credits goingto be available, or, you know,
maybe this grant program is notgoing to go away, and so
uncertainty can breed a lot ofconcern and people can slow down
right, like that's anotherthing.
We're hearing from stakeholders, some who can afford to,
they're like, well, we're goingto kind of wait and see what
happens.
And then others are sort oflike, well, the window's closing
(32:46):
, we're going to race ahead.
So we're seeing a lot of thosedifferent kinds of dynamics
playing out right now and ofcourse it's concerning and of
course my heart goes out toseeing, like, what's happening
on in our communities on theground, because there's a lot of
frustration as well around thisuncertainty and around a little
bit of a lot of the disruptionthat's been happening.
(33:08):
And so where we're really seeingour role is actually something
that we is.
Why we wanted to do this in thefirst place is to continue to
fill that gap, continue to flex,to be that need, and we very
intentionally chose to be anonprofit because that affords
us some agility and flexibilityin pivoting our financing and
(33:29):
our products to where our marketis right now we ultimately can
say hey.
If we need to add, if we needto adjust these terms because
tax credits are a little bitunclear we have the authority
and we have the ability to makethose kinds of adjustments and
be here in a way that perhapsthat counterbalances some of the
(33:49):
uncertainty.
It's not perfect, it's notgoing to be perfect, but we
really see our role as that gapfiller and then we'll continue
to fill that gap.
As we are engaging with ourcommunities, we're sharing
what's the new thing that'sneeded, what's the new area that
needs to be addressed, andthat'll be how we continue to
add value to our community.
Chris Kramer (34:26):
I mean honestly, I think that over time, over the
next five years and 10 years,it's just affordability is just
going to become more and more anurgent need to address.
And you know, cdfis really arethere and green banks really as
kind of the front line of that,and GreenBanks really is kind of
the front line of that.
Now, we can't create magic, butwe'll do everything we can to
try to make projects feasible.
(34:46):
And I think the other part thatties into that for me is that
there's going to be a shift inthe kinds of projects that need
to be financed.
In the kinds of projects thatneed to be financed.
We will need to continue to doall of the weatherization and
those kinds of things that we'vebeen doing, but we're going to
need to do more electrificationand we're really going to need
to do more resilience.
That's just reality.
(35:07):
And resilience is particularlytricky.
And electrification also,because the returns look
different than they do ontraditional efficiency projects.
And yet you know, in a broadsense, if you're not doing them,
then you're really leavingpeople in the lurch.
I, you know, based in Vermont,we've had serious flooding that
(35:32):
really affected our communitiesover the last couple of years,
and if you were at ESP Nationalin Arizona and it was 90 in
January and they were talkingabout the heat waves over the
last few summers and thehundreds of people who you know
didn't make it through thesummer.
I mean, those kinds of projectsare no longer discretionary and
so affordability is not a niceto have, it's a need to have,
(35:56):
and that's why we're here and wehave the resources we have.
But we'll do everything we can.
Ian Perterer (36:05):
Yeah, there's so many pressures.
I think there's the pressure ofuncertainty mixed with the
pressure of certainty in theclimate challenges that we're
going to face.
But I think, if I could sum itup, just to borrow a word from
you, Shawna and Ross, fromFriends, that we're all just
going to have to pivot.
That's what it's going to be.
We're just going to have to beable to pivot and pivot fast.
(36:27):
So, even with all this stuffthat's going on kind of want to
end this on a hopeful note whatkeeps you optimistic about the
future of the industry?
I think, for me, taking awayfrom this conversation, what I'm
really hearing and what makesme optimistic, is that, yes, the
underserved communities arereally feeling the pressure
(36:47):
right now, especially with allof the uncertainty that's
happening in the financing arenaright now, but that we have
these resources CDFIs andGreenbanks that are out there
that can step in, pivot and helpbe a reliable resource to turn
to in these times of uncertainty.
And so I think it's to me thatgives me hope that we're not
(37:10):
stranded out in the middle ofthe ocean with no paddles.
It's, we're not.
We're not stranded out in themiddle of the ocean with no
paddles.
We've got we've got someoptions that we can turn to, but
, chris, like let's start withyou.
What, what are you optimisticabout?
Chris Kramer (37:23):
I just think, and I'll I'll, you know, stick with
the CDFIs here for just a second.
The CDFI industry, you know I'mI started there but I've been
an independent consultant for awhile and every time I come back
to a group of CDFIs it's justso reinvigorating.
I'll give a shout out to theorganization Inclusive the word,
(37:43):
but without the E at the endand their organization of CDFI
credit unions.
And they went to their nationalconference earlier this year.
Earlier this year, and you know, even with all the challenges
that are going on kind ofnationally right now, all of the
attendees, really to a person,were just so dedicated to
(38:04):
figuring this out and, you know,kind of recommitting to doing
what they could for theircommunities.
And it was just so heartening tosee that because, honestly, I
didn't know what I was going tofind.
I sort of thought, well, youknow, given how challenging
things are, you know, maybepeople are throwing up their
hands, and it really didn't feellike that at all.
(38:24):
It felt like, okay, we're usedto this.
We've spent decades working inlow-income and underserved
communities.
You know, challenge isn't newto us.
And so here's the next thingand how do we keep moving?
And that really helped renew myoptimism.
Shawna Cuan (38:43):
I love that so much , chris, and honestly, that is
something that I share with myGreen Bank colleagues and my
peers I mean, you know, acrossother states.
It doesn't really matter whatyour you know priorities are.
We are all driven towardstrying to help improve quality
of life right and make betterlives for the people that we
call part of our community, partof our home, our neighbors.
(39:05):
All of that, and you know whatkind of keeps me excited at the
really really big scale is stillseeing all these really large
market dynamics occurring right,like we really can't deny that
baseload clean energy renewablesare at cost parity.
We can't deny there's growingdemand for electrification.
There's just simply forces thatare moving us forward.
(39:26):
There will be obstacles, therewill be roadblocks, but it is
still moving forward regardless.
And that gives me that sort ofhigh level excitement.
And then at the sort of reallypersonal excitement for me is
we've been increasingly likeconnecting with folks across the
space right, we have partnersand communities in a lot of
(39:48):
different ways, and what I'vebeen incredibly touched by and
shocked by, honestly, is howmany people just said how can I
help?
What you're doing is reallyexciting.
I want to see it be successful.
What can I do to help?
And we've had a number ofpeople volunteer their time,
their expertise, ideas just tohelp advance this mission,
(40:10):
because it's clearly resonantwith so many people within our
communities and that just givesme so much fuel for continuing
this forward, because it can getchallenging, it can get really
hard, but at the same time Itake a step back and I'm like,
oh my god, there's there's allthis support, there's all this
enthusiasm and camaraderie forwhat we're doing and there's a
lot of momentum, and so thatthat really kind of keeps me
optimistic and that's really forme, like what the excitement
(40:33):
optimism comes for for me.
Ian Perterer (40:37):
Absolutely, and that's the power of community.
Well, it is certainly aninteresting time to be working
in clean energy and especiallythe lending space, so I want to
thank you so much, Shawna andChris, for joining us today and
for helping our listeners betterunderstand some of the key
issues that are impactingclimate finance, and also diving
into the world of CDFIs andgreen banks.
(40:58):
I think we all learned a lothere today.
You helped demystify a lot ofthings for me, and you're both
doing great work, and I'mlooking forward to seeing how
the climate finance landscapecontinues to evolve For our
listeners.
If you're interested inlearning more, check out our
show notes.
We'll have links to theresources mentioned during our
conversation.
And that's it for this episode.
We'll see you next time on theEnergy Beat podcast, and thank
(41:19):
you so much, chris and Shawna.
Thank you.
Shawna Cuan (41:22):
Thank you.
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