December 10, 2024 • 15 mins
In part two of our Energy Transition Talks conversation with Helena Jochberger, CGI’s Global Industry Lead for Manufacturing, she and Peter Warren share insights from their industries, emphasizing the advantages of cross-industry collaboration, the need to integrate renewable energy sources and the evolution of ESG principles in business strategy. Organizations worldwide face sustainability challenges, but this discussion reveals that innovative thinking and networks that transcend traditional industry boundaries are driving collective progress.
The convergence of energy and manufacturing industries is increasingly evident as both sectors embrace sustainability and technology innovation to address global challenges. As these industries align their strategies toward decarbonization and efficiency, valuable opportunities emerge to identify shared learnings, goals and practices for a more sustainable future.
Material passports: The key to transparency
Helena highlights the significance of tools like material passports in tracking CO2 emissions and resource origins, which aids in achieving shared sustainability goals across industries. These passports provide transparency in emissions reporting, similar to energy certificates that track energy provenance.
Collaboration in the automotive sector
The automotive industry, particularly in Europe, exemplifies this trend through initiatives like Catena-X, which fosters collaboration among diverse stakeholders to enhance supply chain traceability and drive innovation in electric vehicle (EV) production and battery localization.
Decarbonizing steel: A renewable revolution
Looking at the steel industry's decarbonization journey, Peter and Helena highlight the importance of integrating renewable energy sources. Helena notes that steel manufacturers are not only producing metal products but are also investing in upstream energy solution, such as acquiring wind farms and hydrogen production facilities, to secure clean energy. This approach reflects a shift towards broader adoption of sustainable practices in response to global challenges.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peter Warren (00:05):
Hello everyone and welcome to part two of our
podcast on energy and utilitiesand the intersection of how
energy utilities overlaps andintegrates well with
manufacturing.
Again, my guest today is Helena.
Helena, you can reintroduceyourself.
That would be great.
Helena Jochberger (00:21):
Absolutely.
Thank you, peter, for having me.
Helena Jochberger is my name,global Industry Lead for
Manufacturing and in this role,of course a lot of touch points
with Peter's energies andutilities industries.
As we know, the world isworking in ecosystems and cannot
live and thrive alone.
Peter Warren (00:40):
That's very true.
In the first part of this wetouched on a bunch of different
areas, including the world shiftin energy and how things are
moving forward.
We thought for this next partwe'd talk a lot more about
supply chains and ecosystems,and you talked about working
together.
Supply chain, by literaldefinition for those on the call
is sort of the traditional Imake something, I ship something
(01:01):
and it moves forward.
In our term, an ecosystemincludes that, but also the
cooperation and the evencompetitive cooperation of the
total ecosystem that makes thatmove forward.
Did I explain that well foryour industry, helena?
Helena Jochberger (01:17):
Definitely.
And let me start off maybe witha concrete example, when we
talked in our previous podcastabout the automotive industry
and electrical vehicles, and onepart in that is that especially
in Europe, in Germany moreprecise, there has been founded
an entire ecosystem withdifferent working streams.
(01:40):
It's called CatenaX, like theLatin name for the chain, and it
goes under the umbrella of theGaiaX network, which is supposed
to bring together more of thesame but also of other kind of
collaborators.
That means you will find inthat kind of network as well
(02:00):
automotive OEMs, automotivesuppliers, but as well third
party companies like technologyproviders, energy providers.
To go back to your industry, towork on a certain target and
purpose, and we as CGI, we areheavily involved in Katina X and
we have developed one of thereally first applications there.
(02:22):
That's called the materialpassport.
Because when you're working ina supply chain where you have a
lot of suppliers moving towardsone joint goal for all the parts
that are built there, you needto determine the origin.
You need to in the future timereport on your CO2 emissions,
and such kind of a product ormaterial passport can be a great
(02:44):
tool to do that.
Peter Warren (02:46):
Yeah, it's interesting.
So one of the things thatpeople know from our podcasts
and our website is that we do alot of energy trading and
tracking and subsequently we'redoing a lot of ESG tracking and
reporting the providence ofenergy and moving forward.
But there's an interestingoverlap.
So one of the things we like toexplore on these podcasts is
what we can learn from eachother, what we can import from
(03:06):
banking, what can we import fromretail, what can we learn from
manufacturing.
And this idea about thematerial passport I found very
fascinating because it's verysimilar to the concept of us
using certificates for energyprovidence where it came from,
who owns it and so on.
And these two networks, quitefrankly, are colliding.
I'm not sure how the industrieswill ultimately mush them
(03:30):
together, but if you look at thehydrogen valleys in Europe and
you look at the hydrogen regionsin the United States coming up,
they're trying to solve thissort of question A can I make it
at pace and scale and supplythe industries?
But how do I track all this andtrade this?
How do you sort of see thatfrom your perspective for
somebody like Airbus youmentioned before or whatever
(03:51):
other vehicle manufacturings?
Helena Jochberger (03:54):
Maybe let me start with the vehicle
manufacturers.
We know that the electricalvehicle at the moment in time
seems to be our future, ourcommon future.
So that means the electricalvehicles are equipped with the
batteries.
Battery production willmassively scale up in the next
years to come and within thatcontext there's a certain
(04:16):
localization expected within thesupply chain, especially when
raw earth minerals are includedlike lithium.
Especially when raw earthminerals are included like
lithium, cobalt and such, andthe things with the batteries is
, of course, that in the idealstate we will witness a circular
economy so that we will have asecond and a third life and will
(04:37):
be refurbished, remanufacturedfor a better use than in smart
houses, smart homes and suchremanufactured for a better use
than in smart houses, smarthomes and such and I think in
particular, here our industry isintersectioning very heavily.
So for me it's a question howcan we even do that better, also
in terms of technology andterms of IT.
What is your answer on that?
Peter Warren (04:59):
No, I fully agree with that too, because it lines
up nicely with someconversations we've had.
So, picking on the green steelindustry we talked about that
before the steel industrywanting to decarbonize.
There's the primary product thesteel industry wants to make,
which is obviously their metalproduct, but they're now wanting
(05:20):
to be participating in both theupstream inbound energy when
did it come from?
Where's the prov inbound energy?
Where did it come from?
Where's the providence of it?
Where did it move forward?
Maybe even making some ofthemselves, maybe even buying
some of those assets, maybebuying the wind farm, maybe
buying a hydrogen productionfacility or putting an
electrolyzer on premise.
The other thing is, if I haveall of that, then they're saying
, well, if I've got this in myecosystem, but let's say I'm
(05:44):
having a factory slowdown, can Isell this to other people?
You know, even selling the heatI think you mentioned that your
own home is heated byindustrial processes.
But looking at that at a largerscale, but even maybe selling
directly the hydrogen out theback door or selling the
electricity that they couldproduce Do you see that
something that is going to bejust niche or do you think this
(06:09):
is going to something that couldbloom, uh, into other areas?
Helena Jochberger (06:13):
in terms of sustainable and also renewable
energy parts.
I would say this will growlarger, especially in the
battery production, because thethe new battery producers that
we are witnessing, at least ineurope, they are choosing quite
carefully locations depending onthe energy sources they will
(06:34):
get.
So that's, at the moment, thequestion about where to put my
factory.
But a prolongation of thatthought would be, of course,
entering, as you said, theenergy production themselves,
for the moment being it's nicheor it's more high sophisticated.
But that does not mean that,given the geopolitical aspects
and issues we are facingworldwide, that this might not
(06:57):
change, because you have to comeup with new, innovative
solutions, and that could be oneof it, definitely.
Peter Warren (07:03):
Yeah, you and I met with a company that we've
looked at doing business withand does work around the world,
but they do that.
That's a specific function theydo.
They look at the risk of whereto put the factory it used to be
.
You put factory where you couldget coal delivered to, for
example, easily.
It might be on a water or alake or a rail line.
Now there's all these otherfactors, and we heard from one
(07:26):
of our big customers that theyused to look at their supply
chain every three to four yearsand I think the quote, if I'm
not wrong, it was every quarter.
Now it's a major discussion atthe board level and all the way
through the company.
How do companies deal with that?
How do they adjust?
I mean, what's the data theyneed?
How do they?
Are they using AI?
How is that even working forthem?
Helena Jochberger (07:47):
Yeah, and I think you're touching upon the
magic word of data.
Without the data and, more inparticular, without real-time
data, you will not be able totrack that.
So I think one key aspectwhatever we do at the moment is
really integrating our systemsso that they allow a seamless
flow across the entire supplychain.
(08:07):
So we need to have a holisticview on the data and the
seamless data view, and then youneed to come up, of course, on
top with scenario planning,where, again, technology in
forms of AI can help youdetermining which is the best
approximation to a certainreality and then act upon it
with certain business continuityplans in place.
(08:30):
This is the thing most of themanufacturers we are speaking to
are doing at the moment.
Peter Warren (08:35):
Yeah, again, we sort of broke that down for
those in the audience and ourvoice of the client material was
really they're looking forbetter decision making.
That was one area Automatingtheir engineering driving
decisions and operations meaningreal time shifts there,
insights for the engineeringwhat should I do differently,
how should I behave differently?
(08:55):
And scenario and operationsmanagement, which really hints
towards digital twins, evendigital triplets, as we've
started to talk about, and theconcept for those on the call
too, is that a twin would bemaybe monitoring the physical
aspects of it.
The triplet is using that dataas input, but also looking at
other factors, maybe the weather, maybe the demand in the market
(09:17):
, other factors to come up with.
Yet another further insightbuilt upon the first insight,
and really that comes back downto the other two things that
people are looking at is what'sthe quality of my data and do I
have the data governance to fixit?
The quality of my data and do Ihave the data governance to fix
it?
I know a factor for us is thatgoing back to the agility we
talked about in the first partof this session.
(09:40):
Part one was that agilitybetween those that are investing
in all of this and those thatare achieving results.
They say it's their ability toabsorb the data and react upon
it, and you talked about itimpacting their IT departments
and so on.
But it's also the line ofbusiness.
If the business thinks itshould be going left and all the
data says, turn right, that'sthe thing that has to happen.
(10:02):
And do you see that as auniversal truth?
Where do you see that going?
Helena Jochberger (10:06):
For most of the organizations?
Yes, definitely, and I think wehave a call to action here for
sure, because when we come fromthat generic macro trend of the
shift in the world economicorder you were touching upon it
that has led to a certaineconomic slowdown that we are
witnessing across all theindustries right now, and in
manufacturing, economic slowdownmeans okay, I have several
(10:26):
chances I can cut my costs or Ican increase my revenue, which
is always the better solution,or doing both.
And when increasing the revenue,that means we need to come up
with new product lines and moveinto new geographies, and this
is what is happening right now.
So they want to diversifythemselves into new geographies,
and for that they need suchkind of a stable supply chain,
(10:50):
and so at the moment, we reallyneed all hands on decks, and
that means also collaboratingbetween IT and business.
This is, in our terminology,our data-driven manufacturing
approach, which includes, beyondthe classical data and
technological aspects, of course, on, organizational readiness
and the way of working willchange.
(11:11):
So you need to have theleadership on board, you need to
have the people on board thatunderstand that value of data,
and you need, maybeorganizational changes as well
in place to work more in aso-called plateau mode, so when
you're producing, having the ITand the business physically but
also organizationally combined.
Peter Warren (11:32):
So that's a great point, helena, and I see what
the manufacturing industry isdoing.
I see where they're movingforward.
They had industry 4.0, whichwas all automation.
5.0 brings in this aspect ofthat automation and driving
efficiency, but also bringingthe concept of ESG and
sustainability into it.
(11:53):
And yet I see, unfortunately,in my industry, a lot of people
thinking that my competition isthe people I used to compete
against too, and they understandthe industry and there's maybe
a different pace for a lot ofthem not all of them, but for
some of them.
How do you see industry 5.0,manufacturers entering into
energy utilities, what that'sgoing to mean Really?
(12:16):
My side of the line here arethe energy utility clients.
Do you see it disruptive?
How do you feel about that?
Helena Jochberger (12:23):
I think the answer to that question has
multiple layers, so to say,because manufacturing is a quite
heterogeneous industry.
So you have some discrete andsome process manufacturers and,
within that, two cohorts.
Of course, you have a lot thatare more like we define, digital
leaders, who are reallyproducing results from their
transformation strategies andthey have really the nose ahead
(12:45):
when it comes to IT and businesscollaboration, when it comes to
security topics, when it comesto using, for example, managed
services.
So this is really the cohortthat has the nose ahead in the
race, so to say.
And then we have the ones thatare exploring right now, so that
they are in the stages more ofindustry 4.0.
They are still having someprocesses that are paper-based
(13:08):
or they are really in the stagewhere they are extracting the
data on the shop floor fromtheir production lines and have
not fully explored, I would saythat opening box of Pandora,
what the possibilities might be.
But I would say, to go back toyour question for the digital
leaders, definitely they aremaking thoughts, like we
(13:31):
previously discussed, on how doI get secure sourcing of energy,
how can I get green energy.
Maybe I go into production inthe energy sector, but I would
say, for the moment being, theseare the early adopters.
Peter Warren (13:48):
So it's still in development.
I think that leaves room forstartups.
I know we were talking to manyof those people that are moving
into the startup industry.
I think the message I wouldleave people with and I'll kick
it back to you for the energyand utility folks is that things
are changing.
Competition is coming fromdifferent directions.
They may be coming withdifferent thinking and different
(14:11):
rules and regulations.
We didn't get into the wholeregulatory thing today, but you
know how that all aligns.
But just an idea to continue tolook around and, to your
earlier point, cooperate andwork together.
But I'll give you the finalword, helena, and then we'll
wrap up.
Helena Jochberger (14:26):
I would summarize the final words with.
The world has become veryambivalent, so we need to learn
with that ambivalence, with ahybrid thinking and what you
said as well, with competitorscan become companions in certain
scenarios.
So I think we should allow,from time to time, these
(14:47):
thoughts.
They might bring us further.
Peter Warren (14:50):
Thank you very much, appreciate your time and
expertise, and thank youeveryone for listening and we'll
catch you on the next one.
Bye, bye.
Helena Jochberger (14:57):
Thank you very much, bye, bye.
Hello everyone and welcome to part two of our
podcast on energy and utilitiesand the intersection of how
energy utilities overlaps andintegrates well with
manufacturing.
Again, my guest today is Helena.
Helena, you can reintroduceyourself.
That would be great.
Helena Jochberger (00:21):
Absolutely.
Thank you, peter, for having me.
Helena Jochberger is my name,global Industry Lead for
Manufacturing and in this role,of course a lot of touch points
with Peter's energies andutilities industries.
As we know, the world isworking in ecosystems and cannot
live and thrive alone.
Peter Warren (00:40):
That's very true.
In the first part of this wetouched on a bunch of different
areas, including the world shiftin energy and how things are
moving forward.
We thought for this next partwe'd talk a lot more about
supply chains and ecosystems,and you talked about working
together.
Supply chain, by literaldefinition for those on the call
is sort of the traditional Imake something, I ship something
(01:01):
and it moves forward.
In our term, an ecosystemincludes that, but also the
cooperation and the evencompetitive cooperation of the
total ecosystem that makes thatmove forward.
Did I explain that well foryour industry, helena?
Helena Jochberger (01:17):
Definitely.
And let me start off maybe witha concrete example, when we
talked in our previous podcastabout the automotive industry
and electrical vehicles, and onepart in that is that especially
in Europe, in Germany moreprecise, there has been founded
an entire ecosystem withdifferent working streams.
(01:40):
It's called CatenaX, like theLatin name for the chain, and it
goes under the umbrella of theGaiaX network, which is supposed
to bring together more of thesame but also of other kind of
collaborators.
That means you will find inthat kind of network as well
(02:00):
automotive OEMs, automotivesuppliers, but as well third
party companies like technologyproviders, energy providers.
To go back to your industry, towork on a certain target and
purpose, and we as CGI, we areheavily involved in Katina X and
we have developed one of thereally first applications there.
(02:22):
That's called the materialpassport.
Because when you're working ina supply chain where you have a
lot of suppliers moving towardsone joint goal for all the parts
that are built there, you needto determine the origin.
You need to in the future timereport on your CO2 emissions,
and such kind of a product ormaterial passport can be a great
(02:44):
tool to do that.
Peter Warren (02:46):
Yeah, it's interesting.
So one of the things thatpeople know from our podcasts
and our website is that we do alot of energy trading and
tracking and subsequently we'redoing a lot of ESG tracking and
reporting the providence ofenergy and moving forward.
But there's an interestingoverlap.
So one of the things we like toexplore on these podcasts is
what we can learn from eachother, what we can import from
(03:06):
banking, what can we import fromretail, what can we learn from
manufacturing.
And this idea about thematerial passport I found very
fascinating because it's verysimilar to the concept of us
using certificates for energyprovidence where it came from,
who owns it and so on.
And these two networks, quitefrankly, are colliding.
I'm not sure how the industrieswill ultimately mush them
(03:30):
together, but if you look at thehydrogen valleys in Europe and
you look at the hydrogen regionsin the United States coming up,
they're trying to solve thissort of question A can I make it
at pace and scale and supplythe industries?
But how do I track all this andtrade this?
How do you sort of see thatfrom your perspective for
somebody like Airbus youmentioned before or whatever
(03:51):
other vehicle manufacturings?
Helena Jochberger (03:54):
Maybe let me start with the vehicle
manufacturers.
We know that the electricalvehicle at the moment in time
seems to be our future, ourcommon future.
So that means the electricalvehicles are equipped with the
batteries.
Battery production willmassively scale up in the next
years to come and within thatcontext there's a certain
(04:16):
localization expected within thesupply chain, especially when
raw earth minerals are includedlike lithium.
Especially when raw earthminerals are included like
lithium, cobalt and such, andthe things with the batteries is
, of course, that in the idealstate we will witness a circular
economy so that we will have asecond and a third life and will
(04:37):
be refurbished, remanufacturedfor a better use than in smart
houses, smart homes and suchremanufactured for a better use
than in smart houses, smarthomes and such and I think in
particular, here our industry isintersectioning very heavily.
So for me it's a question howcan we even do that better, also
in terms of technology andterms of IT.
What is your answer on that?
Peter Warren (04:59):
No, I fully agree with that too, because it lines
up nicely with someconversations we've had.
So, picking on the green steelindustry we talked about that
before the steel industrywanting to decarbonize.
There's the primary product thesteel industry wants to make,
which is obviously their metalproduct, but they're now wanting
(05:20):
to be participating in both theupstream inbound energy when
did it come from?
Where's the prov inbound energy?
Where did it come from?
Where's the providence of it?
Where did it move forward?
Maybe even making some ofthemselves, maybe even buying
some of those assets, maybebuying the wind farm, maybe
buying a hydrogen productionfacility or putting an
electrolyzer on premise.
The other thing is, if I haveall of that, then they're saying
, well, if I've got this in myecosystem, but let's say I'm
(05:44):
having a factory slowdown, can Isell this to other people?
You know, even selling the heatI think you mentioned that your
own home is heated byindustrial processes.
But looking at that at a largerscale, but even maybe selling
directly the hydrogen out theback door or selling the
electricity that they couldproduce Do you see that
something that is going to bejust niche or do you think this
(06:09):
is going to something that couldbloom, uh, into other areas?
Helena Jochberger (06:13):
in terms of sustainable and also renewable
energy parts.
I would say this will growlarger, especially in the
battery production, because thethe new battery producers that
we are witnessing, at least ineurope, they are choosing quite
carefully locations depending onthe energy sources they will
(06:34):
get.
So that's, at the moment, thequestion about where to put my
factory.
But a prolongation of thatthought would be, of course,
entering, as you said, theenergy production themselves,
for the moment being it's nicheor it's more high sophisticated.
But that does not mean that,given the geopolitical aspects
and issues we are facingworldwide, that this might not
(06:57):
change, because you have to comeup with new, innovative
solutions, and that could be oneof it, definitely.
Peter Warren (07:03):
Yeah, you and I met with a company that we've
looked at doing business withand does work around the world,
but they do that.
That's a specific function theydo.
They look at the risk of whereto put the factory it used to be
.
You put factory where you couldget coal delivered to, for
example, easily.
It might be on a water or alake or a rail line.
Now there's all these otherfactors, and we heard from one
(07:26):
of our big customers that theyused to look at their supply
chain every three to four yearsand I think the quote, if I'm
not wrong, it was every quarter.
Now it's a major discussion atthe board level and all the way
through the company.
How do companies deal with that?
How do they adjust?
I mean, what's the data theyneed?
How do they?
Are they using AI?
How is that even working forthem?
Helena Jochberger (07:47):
Yeah, and I think you're touching upon the
magic word of data.
Without the data and, more inparticular, without real-time
data, you will not be able totrack that.
So I think one key aspectwhatever we do at the moment is
really integrating our systemsso that they allow a seamless
flow across the entire supplychain.
(08:07):
So we need to have a holisticview on the data and the
seamless data view, and then youneed to come up, of course, on
top with scenario planning,where, again, technology in
forms of AI can help youdetermining which is the best
approximation to a certainreality and then act upon it
with certain business continuityplans in place.
(08:30):
This is the thing most of themanufacturers we are speaking to
are doing at the moment.
Peter Warren (08:35):
Yeah, again, we sort of broke that down for
those in the audience and ourvoice of the client material was
really they're looking forbetter decision making.
That was one area Automatingtheir engineering driving
decisions and operations meaningreal time shifts there,
insights for the engineeringwhat should I do differently,
how should I behave differently?
(08:55):
And scenario and operationsmanagement, which really hints
towards digital twins, evendigital triplets, as we've
started to talk about, and theconcept for those on the call
too, is that a twin would bemaybe monitoring the physical
aspects of it.
The triplet is using that dataas input, but also looking at
other factors, maybe the weather, maybe the demand in the market
(09:17):
, other factors to come up with.
Yet another further insightbuilt upon the first insight,
and really that comes back downto the other two things that
people are looking at is what'sthe quality of my data and do I
have the data governance to fixit?
The quality of my data and do Ihave the data governance to fix
it?
I know a factor for us is thatgoing back to the agility we
talked about in the first partof this session.
(09:40):
Part one was that agilitybetween those that are investing
in all of this and those thatare achieving results.
They say it's their ability toabsorb the data and react upon
it, and you talked about itimpacting their IT departments
and so on.
But it's also the line ofbusiness.
If the business thinks itshould be going left and all the
data says, turn right, that'sthe thing that has to happen.
(10:02):
And do you see that as auniversal truth?
Where do you see that going?
Helena Jochberger (10:06):
For most of the organizations?
Yes, definitely, and I think wehave a call to action here for
sure, because when we come fromthat generic macro trend of the
shift in the world economicorder you were touching upon it
that has led to a certaineconomic slowdown that we are
witnessing across all theindustries right now, and in
manufacturing, economic slowdownmeans okay, I have several
(10:26):
chances I can cut my costs or Ican increase my revenue, which
is always the better solution,or doing both.
And when increasing the revenue,that means we need to come up
with new product lines and moveinto new geographies, and this
is what is happening right now.
So they want to diversifythemselves into new geographies,
and for that they need suchkind of a stable supply chain,
(10:50):
and so at the moment, we reallyneed all hands on decks, and
that means also collaboratingbetween IT and business.
This is, in our terminology,our data-driven manufacturing
approach, which includes, beyondthe classical data and
technological aspects, of course, on, organizational readiness
and the way of working willchange.
(11:11):
So you need to have theleadership on board, you need to
have the people on board thatunderstand that value of data,
and you need, maybeorganizational changes as well
in place to work more in aso-called plateau mode, so when
you're producing, having the ITand the business physically but
also organizationally combined.
Peter Warren (11:32):
So that's a great point, helena, and I see what
the manufacturing industry isdoing.
I see where they're movingforward.
They had industry 4.0, whichwas all automation.
5.0 brings in this aspect ofthat automation and driving
efficiency, but also bringingthe concept of ESG and
sustainability into it.
(11:53):
And yet I see, unfortunately,in my industry, a lot of people
thinking that my competition isthe people I used to compete
against too, and they understandthe industry and there's maybe
a different pace for a lot ofthem not all of them, but for
some of them.
How do you see industry 5.0,manufacturers entering into
energy utilities, what that'sgoing to mean Really?
(12:16):
My side of the line here arethe energy utility clients.
Do you see it disruptive?
How do you feel about that?
Helena Jochberger (12:23):
I think the answer to that question has
multiple layers, so to say,because manufacturing is a quite
heterogeneous industry.
So you have some discrete andsome process manufacturers and,
within that, two cohorts.
Of course, you have a lot thatare more like we define, digital
leaders, who are reallyproducing results from their
transformation strategies andthey have really the nose ahead
(12:45):
when it comes to IT and businesscollaboration, when it comes to
security topics, when it comesto using, for example, managed
services.
So this is really the cohortthat has the nose ahead in the
race, so to say.
And then we have the ones thatare exploring right now, so that
they are in the stages more ofindustry 4.0.
They are still having someprocesses that are paper-based
(13:08):
or they are really in the stagewhere they are extracting the
data on the shop floor fromtheir production lines and have
not fully explored, I would saythat opening box of Pandora,
what the possibilities might be.
But I would say, to go back toyour question for the digital
leaders, definitely they aremaking thoughts, like we
(13:31):
previously discussed, on how doI get secure sourcing of energy,
how can I get green energy.
Maybe I go into production inthe energy sector, but I would
say, for the moment being, theseare the early adopters.
Peter Warren (13:48):
So it's still in development.
I think that leaves room forstartups.
I know we were talking to manyof those people that are moving
into the startup industry.
I think the message I wouldleave people with and I'll kick
it back to you for the energyand utility folks is that things
are changing.
Competition is coming fromdifferent directions.
They may be coming withdifferent thinking and different
(14:11):
rules and regulations.
We didn't get into the wholeregulatory thing today, but you
know how that all aligns.
But just an idea to continue tolook around and, to your
earlier point, cooperate andwork together.
But I'll give you the finalword, helena, and then we'll
wrap up.
Helena Jochberger (14:26):
I would summarize the final words with.
The world has become veryambivalent, so we need to learn
with that ambivalence, with ahybrid thinking and what you
said as well, with competitorscan become companions in certain
scenarios.
So I think we should allow,from time to time, these
(14:47):
thoughts.
They might bring us further.
Peter Warren (14:50):
Thank you very much, appreciate your time and
expertise, and thank youeveryone for listening and we'll
catch you on the next one.
Bye, bye.
Helena Jochberger (14:57):
Thank you very much, bye, bye.
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