January 13, 2025 • 22 mins
Unlock the secrets of the hydrogen revolution with us as we chat with industry visionaries Magalie Amiel and David van der Ploeg. This episode promises a deep dive into how ports are transforming into indispensable hubs for the hydrogen economy. Discover the unique market opportunities that hydrogen presents over the next decade, especially for intercontinental supply chains and sectors that are tough to electrify. We tackle the environmental implications of ramping up hydrogen production, focusing on sustainability challenges like water usage and lifecycle emissions, and the high investments required. Listening to this conversation, you'll gain valuable insights into how ports and their strategic collaborations are crucial for enabling a sustainable energy transition.
Join us as we unravel the complexities of the hydrogen supply chain and explore the pivotal role of government policies in this emerging landscape. Our discussion highlights the indispensable strategies for managing supply chain risks, drawing parallels with the well-established crude oil industry. We emphasize the importance of international collaboration and the alignment between businesses and government to make hydrogen a viable alternative in the global energy mix. Magalie Amiel and David van der Ploeg shine a light on how port authorities are poised to lead the charge in global decarbonization efforts. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of energy and the strategic initiatives that are shaping our path toward a greener tomorrow.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Derek Marinos (00:00):
Welcome to Energy Transition Talks.
It's a space to explore thelatest trends and innovations
shaping the future of energy andutilities.
I'm Derek Marinos, your hostfor today's show, and today's
show is part two from lastweek's discussion, today's part
two from our previous discussionabout how ports are emerging as
(00:20):
critical nodes for hydrogenproduction, import, storage and
distribution.
Of course, today we're goingto take a deeper dive on the
markets and especially what someof the business opportunities
there are out there Talk aboutalso sustainability and the
environment and alsoNetherlands.
(00:49):
Welcome back, happy to pick upthe conversation, david.
I want to start with you rightnow.
What are the biggest marketopportunities you see for
hydrogen in the next five to 10years and where might the
industry face the greatesthurdles?
David van der Ploeg (01:09):
Thank you, derek, and happy to be back for
this occurrence.
Some of the biggestopportunities as we highlighted
last time as well are intransporting renewable energy in
the form of hydrogen.
So I see a lot of opportunityin intercontinental supply
chains moving renewable energyfrom one end of the earth to
(01:30):
water, while, on the other hand,I see a lot of potential in
heavy industry in long distanceor heavy transport, basically
the hard to electrify sectorsthat can benefit from hydrogen
(01:50):
as a fuel or an energy source.
One of the biggest hurdles youalso asked about, I think, is
really in scaling all of this upand all the parties involved
having to work together, whetherit's locally, nationally or
internationally.
Locally, nationally orinternationally, there's a lot
of parties involved, biginvestments being made, but how
(02:12):
does it all fit together and howdo we integrate all of it so we
can work together on thisintercontinentally?
That's one of the bigchallenges ahead of us.
Derek Marinos (02:18):
It clearly is.
And a question for both of younow, because you mentioned the
word scale, and I think it'simportant to address the
sustainability and environmentalimpact here, because once we do
scale, you know, when it comesto production and transport,
there's going to be a tippingpoint.
There for sure, the carbonfootprint will get a little bit
bigger, but hydrogen still hasbeen hailed as a sustainable
(02:39):
energy solution, but concernsabout water usage, the land
footprint and life cycleemissions remain.
How are these being addressed?
First, I'll go to Magali.
Magali Amiel (02:51):
That's quite a huge question.
Yes, that's a challenging andhuge because you know the spread
, you have different angle.
That can start a question.
But I think, right, all theinvestment, that on
infrastructure that we talked onour previous part, on part one
of the podcast, we really youhave to build infrastructure and
(03:12):
dig infrastructure so you havean impact on that.
But in the same, you know, inthe end and in the same way, the
green hydrogen is really, youknow, is really good for the
decarbonization of the industry.
So we have to balance rightabout the impact of the
infrastructure that we have toimplement to have a sustainable
(03:33):
supply chain of hydrogen and theresult in the end.
So that's quite a challenge andalso one another one really
important.
Well, that's the investment,but then all the safety concerns
.
You know we talk about ports,so in ports you have a lot of
activities right and hydrogenit's highly flammable.
(03:53):
So all the safety measure andall the security, the technology
to secure the hydrogen on thespace of the ports and across
all the supply chain, is alsoimportant.
Derek Marinos (04:09):
David, your perspectives on this.
David van der Ploeg (04:12):
Well, from a sustainability or low carbon
perspective?
Yes, definitely, hydrogen has abig potential and has been
hailed as a low carbonalternative to fossil fuels, for
example, for quite some time.
However, we do need to berealistic about it.
I think especially the greenhydrogen options are really
(04:35):
quite costly currently, whileother production methods may not
be as sustainable but still canbe a much more sustainable
alternative than the currentlybeing used fossil fuels.
If we can eliminate those andreplace them by hydrogen, then
(04:56):
first of all, we need that to beaffordable.
Heavy investments are alreadybeing made to transition into
hydrogen.
If you then have green hydrogen, which is quite costly, that
even adds to the investment.
So, to first of all make theinvestments for this transition,
we need to also take intoaccount the price of hydrogen
(05:17):
and therefore, for example, theUnited States is making big
efforts to produce at a low costrate.
And then sustainability is thequestion that will probably come
after.
Still, also to increaseproduction volumes, keep track
of supply and demand.
Well, I think if we go just forthe green production route,
(05:40):
we're going to run into a coupleof challenges there.
So we really need to diversifyfrom a production perspective.
Yes, keep sustainability inmind, but also get to scale up.
Make sure that if these biginvestments into this transition
are being made, these newfacilities can start to be used,
even if it's with maybenon-green produced hydrogen at
(06:03):
an affordable rate.
Then still we can make a bigimpact from a sustainability
perspective.
And once we really scale up inthe long term the green hydrogen
production, it will become moreaffordable and then we can make
an even bigger impact.
But to get there, I think weneed to diversify, keep the
options that we have in mind,keep in mind that the transition
(06:26):
itself already is a largeinvestment for many
organizations and, well, do thebest we can.
Derek Marinos (06:33):
Yeah, and part of doing the best you can leads to
innovation.
Obviously, and I think that'san important point to explore
next.
An important point to explorenext and and really take a look
at you know what innovations arecurrently being explored to
improve the sustainability andefficiency of hydrogen
production and minimize itsenvironmental impact.
(06:53):
I mean, this is going to be a aan imperative.
David van der Ploeg (06:57):
Yeah, so um , there's a lot of innovation in
this space currently happeningif it comes to increasing
efficiency of production methods.
Of course, one productionmethod may still be more
sustainable than others, butalso in the natural gas based
hydrogen production methods, Forexample, we're looking at
(07:18):
carbon capture, carbonutilization, which can lower the
total footprint of producedhydrogen.
Of course, one of the bigchallenges in this space is if
we can produce really low carbonhydrogen in one location, but
we want to consume it somewheretotally different.
We have to figure out asustainable method of transport
(07:44):
and a sustainable way of gettingit to the point of consumption.
Derek Marinos (07:49):
Magalie, from a supply chain perspective, what
kind of impacts are we seeinghere?
Magali Amiel (07:55):
It's very interesting, the impact on the
supply chain.
So, how David mentioned before,really that will be the
investment, the way that theinvestment on the infrastructure
at ports or even for shippinglines or the transportation
company involved on moving thehydrogen, what kind of assets
they are going to build.
And also, it's important, onthis notion of green supply
(08:21):
chain right, because behindhydrogen it's the green supply
chain is how we are going tomeasure the effect, the data,
how the stakeholder are going toshare data to be sure they
control, okay, what is happeningand we have some you know
tangible results about.
We have a green supply chain inplace so that we start with all
(08:43):
the monitoring about theinfrastructure, the monitoring
about the hydrogentransportation and movement and
also the commitment of thestakeholder on a framework on
data standardization, dataexchange and measure the KPI on
the green supply chain.
So what is interesting with thehydrogen supply chain is we
(09:05):
will cover all the parts fromthe production to delivery to
the users and that's theecosystem working together to be
more efficient and to have animpact to reduce the global
climate change.
Derek Marinos (09:24):
And that's an interesting point.
You bring up a very key elementthere data Because when it
comes to environmentalsustainability, I think if you
can't measure it, you can'tmanage it, and data plays a key
role here.
And, david, please explain whatinnovations are out there to
help identify and quantifyimpact.
David van der Ploeg (09:43):
Well, on an organizational level, the last
couple of years we've seen manydevelopments in terms of
ESG-related reporting,non-financial reporting and
really quantifying the footprintof an organization, and in this
case, we need to implement thesame logic, but on a supply
chain level.
So every organization involvedin this supply, we need to
(10:04):
implement the same logic, but ona supply chain level, so every
organization involved in thissupply chain will have an impact
on the total footprint of thesupply chain, starting from
production all the way to theconsumption point.
We see innovations if it comesto actually measuring and
tracking carbon emissions inevery stage.
(10:24):
We need to set that up as asupply chain point of view.
We're seeing the firstinnovations there as well,
whereas also standards arecurrently being deployed that
not only account for carbonemissions and total footprint in
production stage or in theconsumption stage, for example,
but also attribute emissions ifit comes to transport or to
(10:45):
storage, the total supply chainbeing accounted for and that
sort of leads back to what wepreviously discussed.
If we can produce low carbon inone location but consume
somewhere totally different, isit really the more sustainable
option to ship renewableenergies, to ship hydrogen
across the world, or can weproduce locally, maybe at a bit
(11:10):
of a higher footprint, but thenhave a far shorter supply chain,
produce local, near to thepoint of consumption, and will
that be, overall, the moresustainable option, role, the
more sustainable option?
Well, we need data integrationsand innovations in this field
to really keep track of thetotal impact of what we're
trying to set up here and keeptrack of all factors involved,
(11:32):
all parties involved, for thistotal supply chain point of view
.
Derek Marinos (11:36):
Because ultimately, this is going to
lead to regulation, andgovernment is going to need data
and they're going to need thefacts on the table to make
decisions.
And this leads us to our nextsegment here, because we're
looking at regulation, risk andgovernment here, and I think
it's important to identify a fewelements here.
And, magalie, I'd like to beginwith you.
I mean, how are companiesmanaging the risks associated
(11:59):
with hydrogen supply chaindisruptions and are there
lessons that can be drawn fromother industries?
You alluded to it a bit in ourprevious discussion, but I
wanted you to kind of explorethat in more detail here in part
two.
Magali Amiel (12:17):
Yeah for managing the risk.
It's really on the DNA ofsupply chain, right?
Well, first to managing therisk, it's the diversification
of supplier.
Of course, when you are workingon supply chain and when you
are users, you are going to say,ok, what are my option?
B, c and D?
So diversification of suppliersand, to the point to David,
(12:41):
local versus international orglobal suppliers.
That's why it's important totrack the data to measure the
competitiveness of the supplychain.
But in terms of risk also, it'sall around the security and for
(13:01):
the supply chain, for the sorry, not the supply chain the
hydrogen.
It's like what we have seen forand part one we're seeing for
crude oil and petroleum, youknow, for that's kind of the
same.
You have to implement what theycall comprehensive risk
management framework and we knowthat currently you have some
(13:25):
stakeholders of the supply chain, including suppliers,
government, industry, group,insurance, working on this
comprehensive risk managementframework to give guidelines to
the industry and to be sure thatand also to align the
regulation between theregulation, between the
different geography and thedifferent level of government.
Derek Marinos (13:47):
Now, david and Magalie, obviously government's
got a key role to play here.
You know we're trying to lookat what role do government
policies and regulations play inadvancing hydrogen adoption and
decarbonization and whatfurther policy support is needed
.
I mean, ultimately the privatesector and industry is going to
play a key role here.
David van der Ploeg (14:10):
David, I'll start with you.
Yeah, I think governments havea big role to play in all of
this, first of all, in terms ofbringing new regulation that
either sets a clear playingfield or really boosts this
supply chain to move forward,and we see many of those
(14:31):
regulations arising already invarious regions of the world.
We see tax benefits for lowcarbon hydrogen production, for
example.
In the United States, asmentioned, there's a large focus
on low cost production.
I think the goal is to produceat $1 per kilogram all to
(14:52):
promote new methods andextending existing methods of
production.
Of course, in Europe, from asustainability perspective, with
Europe's Renewable EnergyDirective, similar evolvements
and similar boosts to industryare being deployed.
On the other hand, I thinkgovernments also have a role to
(15:12):
play if it comes tostandardization.
So we see many standardsarising, for example, which may
differ amongst each other, and Ithink it's a role for
governments to sort of set alevel playing field, come up
with the rules of engagements inthis sense and set the
standardization of what do wetrack if it comes to carbon
(15:36):
intensity, how do we worktogether, internationally or
intercontinentally?
I think in that sense,standardization, setting up the
connection and working togetheron a bigger scale.
There's also a role to play forgovernments.
Derek Marinos (15:51):
And Magalie from your perspective.
Magali Amiel (15:54):
I agree with David .
I think government is reallyimportant and the
standardization what we areseeing is when you have too many
standards, in the end you don'tfollow one at all.
So all-around standardizationis really important and also
around you know you have, likethe OMI organization of
(16:16):
international sorry, imo,international Maritime
Organization, for example, orall the different must be
involved with the government andwith the industry, because in
the end we have to see thealignment between industry,
government and internationalorganizations to have one or two
(16:37):
clear standards that will helpboth for the production, the
storage and the use of the solarhydrogen supply chain.
Derek Marinos (16:46):
Of course it's such a volatile energy source
Without standardization onewould suspect it just can't get
off the ground.
Source without standardization,one would suspect it just can't
get off the ground.
Let's transition now a bit toand I want to get a little
clairvoyant, if I may use theterm, and look down the road.
What does the future look likefor hydrogen in the context of
(17:08):
an increasingly electrified anddecarbonized global economy?
David, I'll start with you.
David van der Ploeg (17:12):
Well, I think we have to look at our
options depending on the problemwe're trying to tackle.
So electrification in manyapplications is probably the way
to go.
If it comes to heating homes atscale, electrification has many
opportunities.
If it comes to personaltransport, and if you look at
(17:34):
the rate that we can currentlycharge car batteries, for
example, there's massiveopportunity there.
I think it's especially in thehard to electrify industries in
heavy transport, long distancetransport, where batteries are
not really a feasible option, orat least not currently.
That's where hydrogen has itspotential, as well as, as we've
(17:58):
mentioned, in international andintercontinental transport of
renewable energy from places inthe world where we can produce
low carbon energy or renewableenergy to places where we want
to consume this renewable energy.
Derek Marinos (18:13):
Magalie, if you had to identify one
make-or-break factor that willdetermine hydrogen's success,
what would it be?
Magali Amiel (18:22):
One, one make-or-break, just one.
Well, I think it's really.
For me it's the alignmentbetween the business needs, the
governmental objectives, becausewhat we are seeing in the other
for example, electricalelectricity all around, electric
(18:43):
vehicle and things like that wereally push, and especially in
Quebec and Canada we push aroundelectric.
But, as David mentioned before,yes, it's good for one part of
the transportation industry, butnot for shipping, for example,
or not yet.
So really, the make or breakfactor is really high.
You have a consensus of the keyplayers working together and
(19:06):
having the same goals to developand to empower the use of the
hydrogen on the industry.
Derek Marinos (19:13):
Collaboration.
That's key.
Finally, I'm going to ask bothof you here's an interesting
question.
I'm going to see if I can gettwo from both of you what are
the next milestones we should bewatching for in hydrogen's
journey to becoming a mainstreamenergy source?
Magali, I'll give you the firstshot at this one.
Magali Amiel (19:33):
Cool two.
So for me that's really a keymilestone, yes, the key
milestone that maybe the resultsof the, for example, really
tangible milestone, theagreement between Canada and
Germany on the hydrogen supplychain corridor you know the next
step, what will be in six,eight months, 12 months from
(19:55):
here, from now, sorry, andseeing some results first.
Second, it's really aninternational, you know
commitment for port authority onhow we can implement.
You know hydrogen facilitiesand hydrogen.
You know infrastructure intoports territory to be sure that
(20:17):
we don't have.
You know ports were allowed todevelop hydrogen and ports that
can't develop because of lack ofstandardization of the policy
for and the support fromgovernment, industry to the port
.
Derek Marinos (20:35):
Okay, bilateral agreements and standardization.
David van der Ploeg (20:39):
And for you , david, Well, I'm keeping a
close eye on the developmentsaround Europe's international
hydrogen pipeline system beingcurrently set up and being built
.
I think for the Europeanperspective, that will really be
a big step towards aninternational supply chain, an
(21:02):
international pipeline oftransportation, which will
benefit the local hydrogen hubsthat we've discussed previously.
That will benefit import andexport possibilities and that
will be a big enabler forhydrogen in Europe.
And secondly, I'm keeping aclose eye on production cost of
(21:25):
hydrogen and basically pricingfor the consumer.
Currently, depending onproduction method, but
especially if we talk aboutgreen hydrogen, prices are
really quite high and with, forexample, the US really focusing
on low cost of production, Ithink that will be a massive
benefit to further implementinghydrogen across the world.
(21:48):
If it becomes more of anaffordable option, I think we
will see many more applications.
Derek Marinos (21:53):
Very interesting.
Magalie Amiel and David van derPloeg, thank you very much for
sharing your insights today onhydrogen and the critical role
that the port authorities aregoing to play in its development
and, ultimately, its use hereon the planet to possibly help
with decarbonization.
I'm Derek Marinos.
Thank you very much forlistening to the latest
(22:16):
installment of Energy TransitionTalks, a podcast dedicated to
the energy space.
For more engaging conversationslike this one, please visit
cgicom.
Welcome to Energy Transition Talks.
It's a space to explore thelatest trends and innovations
shaping the future of energy andutilities.
I'm Derek Marinos, your hostfor today's show, and today's
show is part two from lastweek's discussion, today's part
two from our previous discussionabout how ports are emerging as
(00:20):
critical nodes for hydrogenproduction, import, storage and
distribution.
Of course, today we're goingto take a deeper dive on the
markets and especially what someof the business opportunities
there are out there Talk aboutalso sustainability and the
environment and alsoNetherlands.
(00:49):
Welcome back, happy to pick upthe conversation, david.
I want to start with you rightnow.
What are the biggest marketopportunities you see for
hydrogen in the next five to 10years and where might the
industry face the greatesthurdles?
David van der Ploeg (01:09):
Thank you, derek, and happy to be back for
this occurrence.
Some of the biggestopportunities as we highlighted
last time as well are intransporting renewable energy in
the form of hydrogen.
So I see a lot of opportunityin intercontinental supply
chains moving renewable energyfrom one end of the earth to
(01:30):
water, while, on the other hand,I see a lot of potential in
heavy industry in long distanceor heavy transport, basically
the hard to electrify sectorsthat can benefit from hydrogen
(01:50):
as a fuel or an energy source.
One of the biggest hurdles youalso asked about, I think, is
really in scaling all of this upand all the parties involved
having to work together, whetherit's locally, nationally or
internationally.
Locally, nationally orinternationally, there's a lot
of parties involved, biginvestments being made, but how
(02:12):
does it all fit together and howdo we integrate all of it so we
can work together on thisintercontinentally?
That's one of the bigchallenges ahead of us.
Derek Marinos (02:18):
It clearly is.
And a question for both of younow, because you mentioned the
word scale, and I think it'simportant to address the
sustainability and environmentalimpact here, because once we do
scale, you know, when it comesto production and transport,
there's going to be a tippingpoint.
There for sure, the carbonfootprint will get a little bit
bigger, but hydrogen still hasbeen hailed as a sustainable
(02:39):
energy solution, but concernsabout water usage, the land
footprint and life cycleemissions remain.
How are these being addressed?
First, I'll go to Magali.
Magali Amiel (02:51):
That's quite a huge question.
Yes, that's a challenging andhuge because you know the spread
, you have different angle.
That can start a question.
But I think, right, all theinvestment, that on
infrastructure that we talked onour previous part, on part one
of the podcast, we really youhave to build infrastructure and
(03:12):
dig infrastructure so you havean impact on that.
But in the same, you know, inthe end and in the same way, the
green hydrogen is really, youknow, is really good for the
decarbonization of the industry.
So we have to balance rightabout the impact of the
infrastructure that we have toimplement to have a sustainable
(03:33):
supply chain of hydrogen and theresult in the end.
So that's quite a challenge andalso one another one really
important.
Well, that's the investment,but then all the safety concerns
.
You know we talk about ports,so in ports you have a lot of
activities right and hydrogenit's highly flammable.
(03:53):
So all the safety measure andall the security, the technology
to secure the hydrogen on thespace of the ports and across
all the supply chain, is alsoimportant.
Derek Marinos (04:09):
David, your perspectives on this.
David van der Ploeg (04:12):
Well, from a sustainability or low carbon
perspective?
Yes, definitely, hydrogen has abig potential and has been
hailed as a low carbonalternative to fossil fuels, for
example, for quite some time.
However, we do need to berealistic about it.
I think especially the greenhydrogen options are really
(04:35):
quite costly currently, whileother production methods may not
be as sustainable but still canbe a much more sustainable
alternative than the currentlybeing used fossil fuels.
If we can eliminate those andreplace them by hydrogen, then
(04:56):
first of all, we need that to beaffordable.
Heavy investments are alreadybeing made to transition into
hydrogen.
If you then have green hydrogen, which is quite costly, that
even adds to the investment.
So, to first of all make theinvestments for this transition,
we need to also take intoaccount the price of hydrogen
(05:17):
and therefore, for example, theUnited States is making big
efforts to produce at a low costrate.
And then sustainability is thequestion that will probably come
after.
Still, also to increaseproduction volumes, keep track
of supply and demand.
Well, I think if we go just forthe green production route,
(05:40):
we're going to run into a coupleof challenges there.
So we really need to diversifyfrom a production perspective.
Yes, keep sustainability inmind, but also get to scale up.
Make sure that if these biginvestments into this transition
are being made, these newfacilities can start to be used,
even if it's with maybenon-green produced hydrogen at
(06:03):
an affordable rate.
Then still we can make a bigimpact from a sustainability
perspective.
And once we really scale up inthe long term the green hydrogen
production, it will become moreaffordable and then we can make
an even bigger impact.
But to get there, I think weneed to diversify, keep the
options that we have in mind,keep in mind that the transition
(06:26):
itself already is a largeinvestment for many
organizations and, well, do thebest we can.
Derek Marinos (06:33):
Yeah, and part of doing the best you can leads to
innovation.
Obviously, and I think that'san important point to explore
next.
An important point to explorenext and and really take a look
at you know what innovations arecurrently being explored to
improve the sustainability andefficiency of hydrogen
production and minimize itsenvironmental impact.
(06:53):
I mean, this is going to be a aan imperative.
David van der Ploeg (06:57):
Yeah, so um , there's a lot of innovation in
this space currently happeningif it comes to increasing
efficiency of production methods.
Of course, one productionmethod may still be more
sustainable than others, butalso in the natural gas based
hydrogen production methods, Forexample, we're looking at
(07:18):
carbon capture, carbonutilization, which can lower the
total footprint of producedhydrogen.
Of course, one of the bigchallenges in this space is if
we can produce really low carbonhydrogen in one location, but
we want to consume it somewheretotally different.
We have to figure out asustainable method of transport
(07:44):
and a sustainable way of gettingit to the point of consumption.
Derek Marinos (07:49):
Magalie, from a supply chain perspective, what
kind of impacts are we seeinghere?
Magali Amiel (07:55):
It's very interesting, the impact on the
supply chain.
So, how David mentioned before,really that will be the
investment, the way that theinvestment on the infrastructure
at ports or even for shippinglines or the transportation
company involved on moving thehydrogen, what kind of assets
they are going to build.
And also, it's important, onthis notion of green supply
(08:21):
chain right, because behindhydrogen it's the green supply
chain is how we are going tomeasure the effect, the data,
how the stakeholder are going toshare data to be sure they
control, okay, what is happeningand we have some you know
tangible results about.
We have a green supply chain inplace so that we start with all
(08:43):
the monitoring about theinfrastructure, the monitoring
about the hydrogentransportation and movement and
also the commitment of thestakeholder on a framework on
data standardization, dataexchange and measure the KPI on
the green supply chain.
So what is interesting with thehydrogen supply chain is we
(09:05):
will cover all the parts fromthe production to delivery to
the users and that's theecosystem working together to be
more efficient and to have animpact to reduce the global
climate change.
Derek Marinos (09:24):
And that's an interesting point.
You bring up a very key elementthere data Because when it
comes to environmentalsustainability, I think if you
can't measure it, you can'tmanage it, and data plays a key
role here.
And, david, please explain whatinnovations are out there to
help identify and quantifyimpact.
David van der Ploeg (09:43):
Well, on an organizational level, the last
couple of years we've seen manydevelopments in terms of
ESG-related reporting,non-financial reporting and
really quantifying the footprintof an organization, and in this
case, we need to implement thesame logic, but on a supply
chain level.
So every organization involvedin this supply, we need to
(10:04):
implement the same logic, but ona supply chain level, so every
organization involved in thissupply chain will have an impact
on the total footprint of thesupply chain, starting from
production all the way to theconsumption point.
We see innovations if it comesto actually measuring and
tracking carbon emissions inevery stage.
(10:24):
We need to set that up as asupply chain point of view.
We're seeing the firstinnovations there as well,
whereas also standards arecurrently being deployed that
not only account for carbonemissions and total footprint in
production stage or in theconsumption stage, for example,
but also attribute emissions ifit comes to transport or to
(10:45):
storage, the total supply chainbeing accounted for and that
sort of leads back to what wepreviously discussed.
If we can produce low carbon inone location but consume
somewhere totally different, isit really the more sustainable
option to ship renewableenergies, to ship hydrogen
across the world, or can weproduce locally, maybe at a bit
(11:10):
of a higher footprint, but thenhave a far shorter supply chain,
produce local, near to thepoint of consumption, and will
that be, overall, the moresustainable option, role, the
more sustainable option?
Well, we need data integrationsand innovations in this field
to really keep track of thetotal impact of what we're
trying to set up here and keeptrack of all factors involved,
(11:32):
all parties involved, for thistotal supply chain point of view
.
Derek Marinos (11:36):
Because ultimately, this is going to
lead to regulation, andgovernment is going to need data
and they're going to need thefacts on the table to make
decisions.
And this leads us to our nextsegment here, because we're
looking at regulation, risk andgovernment here, and I think
it's important to identify a fewelements here.
And, magalie, I'd like to beginwith you.
I mean, how are companiesmanaging the risks associated
(11:59):
with hydrogen supply chaindisruptions and are there
lessons that can be drawn fromother industries?
You alluded to it a bit in ourprevious discussion, but I
wanted you to kind of explorethat in more detail here in part
two.
Magali Amiel (12:17):
Yeah for managing the risk.
It's really on the DNA ofsupply chain, right?
Well, first to managing therisk, it's the diversification
of supplier.
Of course, when you are workingon supply chain and when you
are users, you are going to say,ok, what are my option?
B, c and D?
So diversification of suppliersand, to the point to David,
(12:41):
local versus international orglobal suppliers.
That's why it's important totrack the data to measure the
competitiveness of the supplychain.
But in terms of risk also, it'sall around the security and for
(13:01):
the supply chain, for the sorry, not the supply chain the
hydrogen.
It's like what we have seen forand part one we're seeing for
crude oil and petroleum, youknow, for that's kind of the
same.
You have to implement what theycall comprehensive risk
management framework and we knowthat currently you have some
(13:25):
stakeholders of the supply chain, including suppliers,
government, industry, group,insurance, working on this
comprehensive risk managementframework to give guidelines to
the industry and to be sure thatand also to align the
regulation between theregulation, between the
different geography and thedifferent level of government.
Derek Marinos (13:47):
Now, david and Magalie, obviously government's
got a key role to play here.
You know we're trying to lookat what role do government
policies and regulations play inadvancing hydrogen adoption and
decarbonization and whatfurther policy support is needed
.
I mean, ultimately the privatesector and industry is going to
play a key role here.
David van der Ploeg (14:10):
David, I'll start with you.
Yeah, I think governments havea big role to play in all of
this, first of all, in terms ofbringing new regulation that
either sets a clear playingfield or really boosts this
supply chain to move forward,and we see many of those
(14:31):
regulations arising already invarious regions of the world.
We see tax benefits for lowcarbon hydrogen production, for
example.
In the United States, asmentioned, there's a large focus
on low cost production.
I think the goal is to produceat $1 per kilogram all to
(14:52):
promote new methods andextending existing methods of
production.
Of course, in Europe, from asustainability perspective, with
Europe's Renewable EnergyDirective, similar evolvements
and similar boosts to industryare being deployed.
On the other hand, I thinkgovernments also have a role to
(15:12):
play if it comes tostandardization.
So we see many standardsarising, for example, which may
differ amongst each other, and Ithink it's a role for
governments to sort of set alevel playing field, come up
with the rules of engagements inthis sense and set the
standardization of what do wetrack if it comes to carbon
(15:36):
intensity, how do we worktogether, internationally or
intercontinentally?
I think in that sense,standardization, setting up the
connection and working togetheron a bigger scale.
There's also a role to play forgovernments.
Derek Marinos (15:51):
And Magalie from your perspective.
Magali Amiel (15:54):
I agree with David .
I think government is reallyimportant and the
standardization what we areseeing is when you have too many
standards, in the end you don'tfollow one at all.
So all-around standardizationis really important and also
around you know you have, likethe OMI organization of
(16:16):
international sorry, imo,international Maritime
Organization, for example, orall the different must be
involved with the government andwith the industry, because in
the end we have to see thealignment between industry,
government and internationalorganizations to have one or two
(16:37):
clear standards that will helpboth for the production, the
storage and the use of the solarhydrogen supply chain.
Derek Marinos (16:46):
Of course it's such a volatile energy source
Without standardization onewould suspect it just can't get
off the ground.
Source without standardization,one would suspect it just can't
get off the ground.
Let's transition now a bit toand I want to get a little
clairvoyant, if I may use theterm, and look down the road.
What does the future look likefor hydrogen in the context of
(17:08):
an increasingly electrified anddecarbonized global economy?
David, I'll start with you.
David van der Ploeg (17:12):
Well, I think we have to look at our
options depending on the problemwe're trying to tackle.
So electrification in manyapplications is probably the way
to go.
If it comes to heating homes atscale, electrification has many
opportunities.
If it comes to personaltransport, and if you look at
(17:34):
the rate that we can currentlycharge car batteries, for
example, there's massiveopportunity there.
I think it's especially in thehard to electrify industries in
heavy transport, long distancetransport, where batteries are
not really a feasible option, orat least not currently.
That's where hydrogen has itspotential, as well as, as we've
(17:58):
mentioned, in international andintercontinental transport of
renewable energy from places inthe world where we can produce
low carbon energy or renewableenergy to places where we want
to consume this renewable energy.
Derek Marinos (18:13):
Magalie, if you had to identify one
make-or-break factor that willdetermine hydrogen's success,
what would it be?
Magali Amiel (18:22):
One, one make-or-break, just one.
Well, I think it's really.
For me it's the alignmentbetween the business needs, the
governmental objectives, becausewhat we are seeing in the other
for example, electricalelectricity all around, electric
(18:43):
vehicle and things like that wereally push, and especially in
Quebec and Canada we push aroundelectric.
But, as David mentioned before,yes, it's good for one part of
the transportation industry, butnot for shipping, for example,
or not yet.
So really, the make or breakfactor is really high.
You have a consensus of the keyplayers working together and
(19:06):
having the same goals to developand to empower the use of the
hydrogen on the industry.
Derek Marinos (19:13):
Collaboration.
That's key.
Finally, I'm going to ask bothof you here's an interesting
question.
I'm going to see if I can gettwo from both of you what are
the next milestones we should bewatching for in hydrogen's
journey to becoming a mainstreamenergy source?
Magali, I'll give you the firstshot at this one.
Magali Amiel (19:33):
Cool two.
So for me that's really a keymilestone, yes, the key
milestone that maybe the resultsof the, for example, really
tangible milestone, theagreement between Canada and
Germany on the hydrogen supplychain corridor you know the next
step, what will be in six,eight months, 12 months from
(19:55):
here, from now, sorry, andseeing some results first.
Second, it's really aninternational, you know
commitment for port authority onhow we can implement.
You know hydrogen facilitiesand hydrogen.
You know infrastructure intoports territory to be sure that
(20:17):
we don't have.
You know ports were allowed todevelop hydrogen and ports that
can't develop because of lack ofstandardization of the policy
for and the support fromgovernment, industry to the port
.
Derek Marinos (20:35):
Okay, bilateral agreements and standardization.
David van der Ploeg (20:39):
And for you , david, Well, I'm keeping a
close eye on the developmentsaround Europe's international
hydrogen pipeline system beingcurrently set up and being built
.
I think for the Europeanperspective, that will really be
a big step towards aninternational supply chain, an
(21:02):
international pipeline oftransportation, which will
benefit the local hydrogen hubsthat we've discussed previously.
That will benefit import andexport possibilities and that
will be a big enabler forhydrogen in Europe.
And secondly, I'm keeping aclose eye on production cost of
(21:25):
hydrogen and basically pricingfor the consumer.
Currently, depending onproduction method, but
especially if we talk aboutgreen hydrogen, prices are
really quite high and with, forexample, the US really focusing
on low cost of production, Ithink that will be a massive
benefit to further implementinghydrogen across the world.
(21:48):
If it becomes more of anaffordable option, I think we
will see many more applications.
Derek Marinos (21:53):
Very interesting.
Magalie Amiel and David van derPloeg, thank you very much for
sharing your insights today onhydrogen and the critical role
that the port authorities aregoing to play in its development
and, ultimately, its use hereon the planet to possibly help
with decarbonization.
I'm Derek Marinos.
Thank you very much forlistening to the latest
(22:16):
installment of Energy TransitionTalks, a podcast dedicated to
the energy space.
For more engaging conversationslike this one, please visit
cgicom.
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