March 27, 2025 • 36 mins
What we say reveals who we are—especially when we think no one's listening.
Rachael Natoli, founder of Lokahi Foundation, brings raw honesty and practical wisdom to our conversation about the language that shapes attitudes toward women and ultimately fuels violence. As a mother raising twin boys and leading a foundation supporting abuse survivors, Rachel occupies a unique position at the intersection of personal experience and professional advocacy.
We explore how casual phrases like "boys will be boys" create the foundation for disrespect that can escalate to abuse. Rachael shares a striking story about her son, who was raised in a home that was hyper-aware of language and who is still absorbed concerning attitudes from external influences. This reality check illustrates the powerful cultural forces working against families trying to raise respectful young men.
The conversation takes us through the critical spaces where change must happen—from locker rooms where men speak freely when women aren't present to workplaces where young apprentices navigate established cultures to online spaces where algorithms can rapidly lead young men toward toxic content. Rachel offers practical strategies for men to challenge disrespect without confrontation and explains why male voices are essential in this movement.
Perhaps most thought-provoking is Rachael's reframing of feminism—not as a radical position, but simply as the belief in gender equality. When even women hesitate to embrace this label, how can we build the unified approach needed to address a crisis where police respond to domestic violence every three minutes in NSW alone?
Ready to move beyond awareness to meaningful action? Listen now to discover how everyday conversations and small acts of courage can help build communities where respect isn't optional—it's expected.
Thank you for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leon Goltsman (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of
Engaging Conversations.
I'm your host, Leon Goltsman,and I want to thank you for
tuning into a podcast that's allabout real people, real
challenges and real change.
Now, before we begin, I'd liketo extend my gratitude to Niaz
Cannoth from Invest Intelligence.
Niaz continues to be a valuedsupporter of this program, and
(00:24):
his commitment to communityintegrity and meaningful action
reflects the very heart of whatwe share here, and today's
episode is one that speaks toall of us.
Our guest is Rachael Natoli,founder and CEO of Lokahi
Foundation, a grassrootsorganization supporting people
impacted by domestic and familyabuse.
(00:46):
Rachael is not only a Westfieldlocal hero.
She's a survivor, a mother oftwin boys and a strong,
compassionate voice for unity,respect and change.
We explore how language shapesattitudes, how common phrases
like boys will be boys cannormalise harmful behaviour, and
why it's time for all of us,especially men, to step up.
(01:09):
Rachael explains how simpleconversations at home can make a
difference, how male rolemodels can shape the culture of
respect and why staying silentis no longer an option.
This is an episode aboutcourage, accountability and
creating a culture where respectisn't optional.
It's expected.
If you've ever wondered how youcan be part of the solution.
(01:31):
This conversation is a powerfulplace to start, so, without
further ado, let's get into it.
Rachael Natoli (01:39):
My name is Rachael Notoli and I'm the CEO
and founder of the LokahiFoundation.
And I'm the CEO and founder ofthe Lokahi Foundation.
I was in a long-term abusiverelationship, which is what led
to me starting a charity tosupport women and children
impacted by domestic and familyabuse, and I'm a mum to
12-year-old boys and one of theworld's biggest Roosters fans.
Leon Goltsman (02:00):
Okay, Thank you for the opportunity to sit down
and talk to you, because I knowyou do amazing things, not just
here in the Sydney's easternsuburbs, but a lot of your good
work gets noticed and recognisedlots of places.
Rather than me sharing it, doyou want to tell us a little bit
about one of your most recentacknowledgements that you got
one of your recognised awards?
Rachael Natoli (02:20):
Well, maybe we should acknowledge that I was
privileged enough to benominated as a Westfield Local
Hero in Bondi Junction last yearand thank you to all those who
voted.
That meant that we actually Iwon the award of Westfield Local
Hero, but for me it's moreabout Lokahi actually being
acknowledged for all the workthat my caseworkers do on a
(02:43):
daily basis and a $20,000 checkthat goes towards all the hard
work that we do.
Leon Goltsman (02:49):
Certainly well deserved, but it's not really
all about winning awards,because I know it's nice to
receive awards and beingrecognised, but I think the real
accomplishment comes with whatyou do for people who need your
support what you do for peoplewho need your support.
So, Rachael, look, I knowexperts often point out
(03:09):
inequality and everydaydisrespect towards women are key
drivers of violence.
This suggests the language menuse daily.
Even casual jokes or commentscan either reinforce or
challenge those harmfulattitudes.
What do you think about that?
Rachael Natoli (03:21):
I actually think that language plays a huge part
in gender inequality.
I think that we all need to bemuch more aware of the language
that we're using, and it'ssomething that even I'm still
learning from.
I remember being at a forumlast year and somebody that I
have a lot of respect for in theAboriginal community in Lismore
(03:45):
spoke about the fact that wesay hey guys, when we're
actually speaking to ladies, andwhy you know why are we still
using very male, stereotypicallanguage.
So I think you know we have along way to go all of us in
correcting that.
Just to make it non-genderspecific.
We're not asking everybody tobe politically correct all the
(04:08):
time, but just to take out thegender type language that we use
every day.
Leon Goltsman (04:13):
And you mentioned why this is important.
But can I also ask you, why isit so critical for men to really
pay attention to how theycommunicate with and about women
?
Rachael Natoli (04:22):
So I think it's really important that we talk
about how both men and womencommunicate, and let's start
with the fact that genderinequality is one of the biggest
drivers of violence and abusetowards women.
And I think if we acknowledgethat from the start, we realise
what a huge job we still have todo, but also that we are making
(04:44):
some small steps towardsprogress.
I think we really do need toacknowledge the language it's
used, especially for our youngergeneration, older men and women
, you know and I'm not talkingold, I'm talking about older,
our role models for our youngergenerations, and it's up to us
(05:06):
to make sure that they're beingraised.
I'm talking about older, ourrole models for our younger
generations, and it's up to usto make sure that they're being
raised to respect the oppositegender, but also to respect
their own gender and themselvesright from the very beginning,
because respect is key.
And when we have journalists aswe did in the last couple of
weeks on mainstream radiostations, making comments about
(05:27):
female sport and let's be honest, leon, a female sport that the
World Cup a couple of years agowas one of the biggest watched
events on TV makinginappropriate comments about
female sport and referring toyour own private parts in having
(05:47):
those jokes is just soinappropriate now and says to
younger people that that's okay,that's acceptable, and we can
continue to diminish women andcontinue to put down women in
whatever roles that they'vechosen, but especially in female
sport, which is something weare trying to ensure has a
(06:08):
bigger place in our world.
Leon Goltsman (06:10):
Well, it's interesting you mentioned women
as well.
I mean one of those phrasesthat we often hear male, female,
just about everybody phraseslike boys will be boys and
having these sort of phraseshave been used for generations,
as you mentioned, to excuse ordownplay bad behavior, from
rough housing to locker roomstalk as part of normal male
(06:31):
culture, and now we know thatthat happens with female culture
as well.
Such mindsets assume that menor boys naturally talk or act a
certain way and thereforeshouldn't be held accountable
for it.
How is the boys will be boysmentally harmful when it comes
to respect for women and why dowe need to retire these lame
excuses in order to hold menaccountable for their words and
(06:54):
actions?
Rachael Natoli (06:55):
Boys will be boys is one of the worst phrases
that still exists in commonsociety and as a mother of two
young preteen boys, I think I'min a great position to be able
to discuss it.
There are certainly somebehaviours that I believe are
(07:18):
much more obvious, much morecommon in male gender children
than would be in female genderchildren.
There's no doubt that there arephysical changes that occur for
boys that they're not happeningfor girls and vice versa, and I
think you know we also need toacknowledge that as boys are
(07:38):
growing, there's lots oftestosterone going around their
bodies and women have lots ofestrogen.
You know, young girls haveestrogen, so the hormones are
very, very different.
Does that mean that it's okayfor boys to physically assault
each other?
Absolutely not, because when weaccept that they're physically
assaulting each other, we areteaching them that it's okay to
(08:00):
physically assault somebody.
Is it okay when boys walkaround on the streets spitting
on the floor?
No, it's absolutely notacceptable.
We wouldn't accept that inadult society.
Why are we accepting it foryoung boys?
You know there's lots of littlethings like that that we need
to pick up, but thisstereotypical language of oh,
(08:23):
it's okay because they're boysis not acceptable, in the same
way that we don't say, well,girls will be girls.
That is not a common phrase, sowhy are we allowing it for men?
As a mum of 12 year old twinboys who runs a domestic abuse
charity and has always been verytough with them about respect
(08:43):
and respecting themselves andrespecting the opposite gender
and how we speak about women, Ithink what we're seeing more and
more now is the influx ofsocial media and technology and
how much that impacts our youngmen, and my boys have just
started high school.
(09:06):
One of the parents groups wastalking about chess club.
Now I think it's whether it'sacceptable or not, it's kind of
common knowledge that if you'rein chess club you're a bit of a
nerd.
Now I think again that'sbizarre and it's very
stereotypical, but you know thatthe the common misconception
about chess club.
My partner said to our boys outsaid to one of our boys at
(09:29):
dinner a couple of weeks agothat he should consider joining
chess club because he's beenplaying chess with my partner
over the summer holidays.
His response was, and I quotehell, nah, bro.
Everyone knows those in chessclub ain't getting no b****es.
Now this is from a young manwho has been raised by a single
(09:49):
mum for most of his life, whoknows all about domestic abuse
and domestic violence, who knowsall about respect for women and
yes, he was joking and no, hedoesn't normally refer to women
as b****es but that language isstill coming through, even in a
house where he knows it won't betolerated.
Leon Goltsman (10:09):
Yeah, well, a lot of the education happens at
home and at school and the otherone happens in the real world,
and you want to make sure thatby the time you get in the real
world you're equipped.
What we're talking about today,you know, not just about
children, but also the impactthat our leaders and our role
(10:29):
models have on those children.
And one of the things and we'lltalk more about that a little
bit later on but one of the mostnoticeable observations is that
most damaging remarks aboutwomen happen when the women are
not present.
I mean, the so-called lockerroom.
(10:51):
Talk amongst guys is the kindof spaces that the males feel
safe, they feel comfortable,they're protected, and yet this
private banter reflects one'strue attitude and does influence
behavior.
So why does it matter how menspeak about women when women
aren't around?
And how can men hold each otheraccountable in these moments?
Rachael Natoli (11:08):
I think it's really important you know what
both genders say in public andin private, because one you
never know who's actuallylistening.
And again I come back to ourchildren being looking to us as
role models.
But also you don't know whoyou're saying it to and what
they have personally experienced.
(11:29):
And respect has to be key toall that we are saying.
So we need to be showingrespect for everybody around us.
I think what can be verydifficult with the locker room
talk and you know what men mightsay privately is that not all
of their friends may agree.
(11:50):
Not all of the men with them atthat time may hold that opinion.
So how do men feel they can stepup and speak out against that?
And I think it can be reallydifficult.
And when we go and speak inschools about through Lakai's
education program, when I go andspeak in schools, I speak to
(12:10):
young men about being activeupstanders, not bystanders, and
how you can call it out with agroup of friends and we have to
call it out and say that's notfunny, or I think one of the
best ways to do is to actuallyput that person on the spot and
say I'm sorry, I don'tunderstand.
Can you explain it to me,because then you haven't done
(12:34):
anything other than ask them toself-reflect.
And when they have to explainit to you, it's not half as
funny as it seemed to them inthe first place.
But you know, the only way Ifeel like we're going to make a
difference with the languagethat men are using is for other
men to call them out, because ifwomen are the ones that are
(12:54):
always calling them out, they'rejust nags or they're feminists,
which nowadays is notapparently a great thing to be.
Leon Goltsman (13:03):
So, Rachael, if a teenage boy hears his dad or
idol constantly speaking aboutwomen in a dismissive or
derogatory way, he's likely toadopt similar language, isn't
that right?
Rachael Natoli (13:15):
Absolutely.
I think when young men hear amale role model whether that's
their father or theirgrandfather or an uncle, whether
it's their sports coach or ateacher anyone that they view as
a role model speakingdisrespectfully or in a
derogatory manner about women,they start to believe that that
(13:37):
is an acceptable way to speak.
It's very, very hard to undothat way of thinking when that's
what they've grown up around.
Leon Goltsman (13:45):
I think you've hit the nail right on the head.
So, on that, whatresponsibility do older or more
established men as fathers,mentors or community leaders
have in modelling respectfulcommunication towards women, and
how can these role modelsactively guide younger men to
set a better example in the waythey talk about women?
Rachael Natoli (14:04):
I think older men have a huge responsibility
in setting good examples toyounger men and to younger girls
or women about how to respectthe opposite gender.
It's not just about young men.
It's about young women too,about them learning some
(14:24):
self-respect, about them puttingboundaries in place, about them
recognising red flags.
As much as it is for young menabout learning to respect the
opposite gender and treat womenin the way that they would want
their mum, their sister,themselves to be treated.
The older men need to be showingnot only how to behave, not
(14:47):
only how to speak, not only thatwomen play a huge role in our
lives and how much women do on adaily basis in the household,
as well as trying to work and aswell as trying to do everything
else, but also, I think, insharing the load at home and
teaching these young men andwomen that they are equal with
(15:12):
their partners.
So you know they are expectedto treat their girlfriends or
their wives with respect, butthey are also expected to take
part.
They're also expected to stepup as fathers.
They're also expected to stepup in household chores.
You know it doesn't have to allfall on the women, and even
(15:34):
more so these older men, whetherthey are the dads, whether they
are the teachers, call out whenthey see young boys being
disrespectful.
And if they get called outstraight away from their older
role models, they are much lesslikely to repeat offend.
Leon Goltsman (15:50):
And that's all good to say that when the role
models are around, but withtoday's technology, I mean, it's
pretty ubiquitous.
Social media, online gaming,influencer culture we're all
exposed now more and more tomisogynistic messages of toxic
role models, at a click of abutton, from viral videos that
disparage women to online forumsthat normalise aggression.
(16:13):
I mean, the digital world canshape how young men speak and
think about women, sometimes invery troubling ways.
So how can we reach young menwho are growing up immersed in
this online culture and empowerthem to communicate respectfully
about women?
Rachael Natoli (16:28):
I'm not an expert in online culture, but
what I do know is that peoplelike Andrew Tate have become
very popular amongst younger menbecause of their money, their
power, their attractiveness,their you know attractiveness to
(16:49):
the opposite sex, and I thinkit can be very, very damaging to
young men.
I recently heard, in a lecturethat I went to about now, that
AI is so huge.
If you are on social media andyou're a young man who clicks on
one thing, it can lead you downa very dark rabbit hole and,
(17:14):
before they know it, they arebeing very much exposed to a lot
of misogynist information, andthat that can be really harmful.
So what can we do to help ouryoung ones to, um, to make sure
that they aren't exposed to that, or at least make sure they
have, you know, a much morebalanced view?
(17:35):
I think we have to keep thosethose uh doors of communication
open.
As hard as it is with youngteens or preteens, we have to
just keep talking to them.
I think that the move towardslimiting social media or banning
social media under a certainage is a great one, because it
only serves to protect ourchildren for a little bit longer
(17:57):
and allow them to be kids.
It's about also making surethat there's education in
schools For me, I believe thatshould be from kindergarten
onwards about respectfulrelationships, about toxic
masculinity.
So if we can educate ourchildren year on year, they have
(18:17):
a much better chance ofunderstanding when they are
exposed to that kind of stuffstuff that it's actually not
something that they want to lookinto.
Leon Goltsman (18:28):
So my understanding of what you're
saying is empowering youngchildren, more or less, to be
able to make decisions forthemselves.
Rachael Natoli (18:36):
Yeah, absolutely .
It's all about empowering ouryoung ones to make the right
decisions themselves.
We know that as they're goingthrough their teens, they're
much less likely to listen totheir parents, so we need to
empower them to make thosesensible decisions themselves.
Leon Goltsman (18:51):
Starting children early, and then eventually,
young men will enter theworkforce, and when they do,
some of them may end up in maledominated or traditional blokey
industries.
So, Rachael, what advice wouldyou give to young men in the
workplace, from apprentices andnew grads to team leaders and
veterans, about challengingdisrespectful talk or attitudes
(19:12):
toward women on the job?
Rachael Natoli (19:13):
For young men coming into new workplaces,
especially for apprentices andnew grads.
I think it's very, verydifficult for them to challenge
attitudes and behaviour wherethey're going in as the new kid
and they're trying to establishthemselves and that's their main
focus.
I think what they need toremember is that you start as
(19:37):
you mean to go on and if theyaccept those attitudes,
disrespectful comments or sexistjokes from the beginning,
they're actually going to haveto accept them for the long run,
whereas, you know, I thinkthere are ways that they can do
it without making themselvesunpopular.
You know, when we look at maledominated sporting codes, we've
(20:01):
come a long way in in the lastfew years but we still have a
long way to go.
Being an NRL fan myself, Ifound it very, very difficult
that we have introduced as acode less tolerance on violence
against and disrespect towardswomen and yet we've had players
(20:23):
still allowed to play afterthey've been convicted whether
it's been in a criminal court,whether it's been overseas or
whether it's been accused andnot actually got to a final
hearing.
And I think you know it makesit very, very difficult for
women to feel safe in thoseenvironments.
I think for the young men theyreally need to be thinking about
(20:45):
whether they're willing toaccept that behaviour long term.
And if they're not speaking tosomebody that they can trust to
say that they don't feelcomfortable in that environment
or calling it out and, as wesaid before, asking the person
to explain it, it's the best wayto do it without coming across
as being rude or confrontational, just asking them to explain
(21:06):
their joke.
We've already spoken about theimportance of role models, so I
think if you have a platformthat you can use in a positive
way, if you are a successfulsports player, if you are a
successful movie star,television star, whatever it
might be you should be usingthat for good, and many do so,
(21:29):
you know.
Let's actually celebrate thosethat are using it for good, but
you know there are some thataren't using it in the way that
they could go totally the otherway.
And when that's accepted bythose around them and their
codes allow them to keep playingor they keep being allowed to
film movies, no matter how theybehave, we end up with huge
(21:52):
issues, and I think you know, weall know about the Me Too
movement, we all know aboutHarvey Weinstein and you know
how he treated women over thecourse of his career.
So when we look at those things, we know if that had been
called out by people sooner, hewould have had to stop.
We have to, as a community,work together to make sure that
(22:15):
everybody is on the same pageand that this disrespect that
leads to violence, that leads toabuse, that leads to so much
gender inequality is nottolerated by anybody.
Leon Goltsman (22:29):
And that's really important to call things out,
especially when people are in aposition of power and they're
entrusted, they're responsiblefor other people's safety, for,
whether it's an organisation,whether it's a community,
whether it's their peers, theirfriends, their friends, they
should not turn a blind eye tothese sort of things, do you
agree?
Rachael Natoli (22:48):
Turning a blind eye is one of the worst things
that you can do, because byturning a blind eye, what you
are telling the person who hasmade those inappropriate
comments who is quite likely aperpetrator themselves is that
nobody's going to call them outand that their behaviour is
acceptable, and that you's goingto call them out and that their
behaviour is acceptable andthat you're going to let it
continue.
So we have to call out thosepoor behaviours when we see them
(23:11):
, so that those people know thatthey're on notice and you know,
we don't want them to have nofear of repercussions.
We want them to know that theyare being watched, they have
been noticed and we're going tocontinue looking at what they're
doing and how they're behaving.
Leon Goltsman (23:29):
And that does take a lot of courage and it's
important.
I mean, one of the things aboutour podcast, our program and
having these conversations is tolet people know that they're
not alone.
If they see something, theyshould call it out.
So how can we ensure that themessage of respectful
communication and zero tolerancefor abusers reaches men in all
(23:51):
communities?
What can community leaders doto make sure that men in the
local area understand thatdisrespecting women is never
okay and inspire them to be partof the solution?
Rachael Natoli (24:03):
is never okay and inspire them to be part of
the solution.
I think that this message ofrespectful communication and
zero tolerance for abuse isreally important and there's
still a huge stigma arounddomestic and family violence.
I think we don't like to talkabout it, we don't like to
acknowledge it and I thinkthat's very obvious from the
(24:23):
fact that more women weremurdered in Australia last year
than any other year previously.
And if you look at high profilepoliticians our premier in New
South Wales, our prime minister,the ministers for domestic
violence, you will not see themcomment on those statistics.
And yet when two sailorsunfortunately and very, very
(24:46):
tragically passed away in theSydney to Hobart, our Prime
Minister was happy to put a postup straight away.
That was two men really, reallytragic, very sad for their
families and you know hugecondolences for them.
But what about the 70 womenthat were murdered as a direct
result of domestic and familyviolence last year?
(25:07):
It falls on deaf ears and untilwe come together as a community
and until our community leadersstep up and lead that call, we
are going to continue to seewomen being murdered in our
country due to domestic andfamily violence.
And it's not just about thosethat are murdered.
It's about all of those womenand children that are impacted
(25:29):
every single day.
There's so much domestic andfamily violence in New South
Wales, specifically now and Ispeak about that because I was
with the police, commissionerlast week police now attend a
domestic violence incident inNew South Wales every three
minutes.
Every three minutes they'regetting a call about domestic
(25:51):
and family violence and thatcomes from this culture of
disrespect, this culture ofkeeping it behind closed doors,
this culture of not calling itout when we see it.
So you know, we haveorganisations like Our Watch
that are doing lots of researchand create some great
(26:15):
initiatives to support.
But ultimately, we have toinvolve the whole community.
So if you're a community leaderand you really want to make a
difference, you need to go andspeak to your local domestic
violence services, find out whatthey're seeing.
You need to involve victimsurvivors of domestic and family
abuse because they've lived it.
(26:35):
They know what's going onbehind closed doors and they
often have great ideas of how wecan combat the awful situation
that this country is livingthrough with domestic violence.
So, involving as many people asyou can.
But we have to stop callingthis a women's problem.
It is everybody's problem.
Yes, it's mainly menperpetrating violence against
(26:58):
women.
That's what the stats tell us.
But it is not only menperpetrating against women.
There are women that perpetrateagainst men.
There are same-sexrelationships where rates are
very, very high.
We have to tackle it as a wholecommunity and we have to bring
good men, respectful men,powerful men, into this
(27:22):
conversation, into thesecommunity calls, if we really
want to make a difference.
Leon Goltsman (27:28):
So there are a lot of worthy causes out there
who are doing great things andtrying to.
How effective are suchorganisations in actually
shifting men's attitude andbehaviours?
And how can men who arelistening today move beyond just
wearing, say, a white ribbon orsigning a pledge?
What does it look like to liveout the commitments in everyday
(27:48):
life and truly be a role modelin today's community?
Rachael Natoli (27:52):
I think if you truly want to be a role model in
today's community, when youcome to gender inequality,
domestic and family abuse, cometo gender inequality, domestic
and family abuse, we have totake it back.
We have to step back, and oneof the biggest issues that I
have at the moment is even womendon't want to call themselves a
(28:15):
feminist.
Now, I've had friends of minethat say that they won't call
themselves feminists becausethere's this old fashioned view
of what a feminist is.
If you Google feminism,feminism is a movement that
advocates for the equality ofmen and women in all aspects of
(28:36):
life.
Now, when you break it down toa definition, how many people do
you know that do not want menand women to have equity and
equality?
There's many of us that disagreethat men and women have
different skills in some areasand that not as many women are
(28:59):
going to be as strong as men.
Physically strong.
There are certainly women thatare stronger than many men, but
generally men have differenthormones and they are designed
differently, so they are goingto have different skills and
expertise than women.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
We are talking about them beingtreated in the same way to
(29:20):
achieve gender equity.
Now, if women won't callthemselves feminists, how can we
expect men to call themselvesfeminists?
And I know quite a few feministmen or men that would call
themselves feminists, but notnecessarily openly.
Now imagine if we could getmore men to acknowledge feminism
(29:41):
for what it actually is.
That would then mean that theywere more willing to step up and
take action towards genderequity.
If we have better gender equity, if we achieve that, we're less
likely to have domestic andfamily violence, because with
gender equity means we have morerespect for each other.
(30:03):
We have to take it back tothose basics so that we can try
and achieve what we want to, andthose male role models need to
go and look up feminism, be ableto call themselves feminists
and say that they actually wantto have gender equity.
Leon Goltsman (30:20):
So there's a lot of valuable information covered
here.
As a final takeaway, what isthe one practical change of
action you would urge every manlistening to adopt, in how he
talks or behaves, to set abetter example and help create a
safer, more respectful culturefor women and girls?
What's a realistic startingpoint for men who want to make a
(30:41):
positive impact right now?
Rachael Natoli (30:44):
For men that are wanting to make a positive
impact right now.
I think there's a whole list ofthings that I can suggest, but
if we're talking about being amale role model, then start
calling out toxic behaviour,start calling out toxic
masculinity, start calling outdisrespectful comments.
Go home and speak to yourchildren tonight your son and
(31:08):
your daughter, or either orabout what respect is how they
should be treating others, whatthey should be willing to accept
themselves, and let's start bymaking those small differences
at home.
And you know, if you want to domore than that, there is so
much more that you can do interms of supporting local
(31:34):
domestic and family violencecharities.
But you know, it all starts athome and it starts with the way
that we speak ourselves and theway that our children or our
nieces and nephews or otherchildren nearby, hear us speak.
If we can get that right and wecan call out the other toxic
behaviours that we see, we havea chance of actually changing
(31:57):
the narrative.
Leon Goltsman (31:58):
Rachael, thank you so much.
So if people wanted to help out, get involved, how might they
go about doing that?
Rachael Natoli (32:07):
If people want to get involved with Lokahi
specifically, then they canemail us.
They can contact us on socialmedia.
Our website is Lokahi and weare on Facebook, linkedin and
Instagram if people want to lookus up.
(32:28):
But I also suggest that youlook up your local domestic
violence charities.
This isn't about Lokahispecifically, but about
supporting women and childrenthat are impacted by domestic
and family abuse.
So, no matter where you are, goand find a local charity that
you can support.
It doesn't have to be financialsupport.
(32:48):
You might have skills that youcan offer.
You might be happy to fundraisefor them.
You might be able to volunteerfor them in some way.
There is so much that we can do, and I'm sure they would love
to bring women and men intotheir organisations in some way.
To you know, show that we canall work together to try and
(33:11):
solve this issue.
Leon Goltsman (33:12):
Very good advice.
So there's a lot of greatorganisations around Australia,
and what you said to me a whileback is that it's great doing
good things for your community,that when more people come
together, you cooperate togetherand because of that, you're
able to have a much louder voice.
Rachael Natoli (33:33):
Absolutely, you know, the more of us that can
work together, the bigger impactwe're able to have a much
louder voice.
Absolutely, you know, the moreof us that can work together,
the bigger impact we're going tohave.
Likahi means unity and harmony,because what I saw when I was
leaving domestic violence wasthat there wasn't enough unity
between services, and so if wetake this holistic approach and
we bring everybody into thisconversation and we work with
(33:53):
other services, other agencies,and build really strong
relationships, then we can helpmore people, but we can also
have much better results, muchfaster, for those women and
children that have been impacted.
Leon Goltsman (34:08):
Well, Rachael, thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for everything thatyou do.
Really appreciate you coming onthe show and I'm sure a lot of
people will appreciate that aswell thank you for having me,
leon, I appreciate it and thatbrings us to the end of another
meaningful episode of engagingconversations.
a heartfelt thank you to Rachaelnatale, not only for sharing
(34:31):
her personal journey, but theincredible work she's doing
through the Lokahi Foundation tohelp build safer, more
respectful communities.
If there's one thing that wecan all take away from today,
it's that language matters.
The words we use, whether athome or at work, or with our
mates, shape how we think, howwe treat others and the kind of
(34:51):
culture we create.
Respect starts with us, andit's something that's revealed
through our actions, not justwords.
I'd also like to take theopportunity to express my
gratitude for the incredibleresponse to our last episode
with Theo from Hillview Op Shop.
After hearing how they gaveback over $1 million to the
community in just one year alone, one listener told us after
(35:15):
hearing that podcast, I want tovisit that place and get
involved as well, and that'sexactly what this show is about
sharing stories that inspireaction.
Now, if you've made it this far,can I ask you for a quick
favour, very quick one.
Think of one person, just one,who would benefit from hearing
today's conversation, and Iwould really appreciate it if
(35:37):
you could please share it withthem.
That simple act alone mightopen up a door, spark a
reflection or even change aperspective.
And something I'm reallyexcited to share with you is
that, as of next week, we'retaking engaging conversations
beyond the studio.
We're taking engagingconversations beyond the studio,
connecting with voices fromevery corner of the country,
(35:58):
from local legends to communityleaders, professionals and
people in positions of influence.
We're sharing stories thatmatter, whether it's from our
own neighborhoods or farreaching towns.
We're giving people a platformand empowering them to use it.
There's so much more to come.
A huge thank you, as always, toNiaz Cannoth from Invest
Intelligence for his support.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of
Engaging Conversations.
I'm your host, Leon Goltsman,and I want to thank you for
tuning into a podcast that's allabout real people, real
challenges and real change.
Now, before we begin, I'd liketo extend my gratitude to Niaz
Cannoth from Invest Intelligence.
Niaz continues to be a valuedsupporter of this program, and
(00:24):
his commitment to communityintegrity and meaningful action
reflects the very heart of whatwe share here, and today's
episode is one that speaks toall of us.
Our guest is Rachael Natoli,founder and CEO of Lokahi
Foundation, a grassrootsorganization supporting people
impacted by domestic and familyabuse.
(00:46):
Rachael is not only a Westfieldlocal hero.
She's a survivor, a mother oftwin boys and a strong,
compassionate voice for unity,respect and change.
We explore how language shapesattitudes, how common phrases
like boys will be boys cannormalise harmful behaviour, and
why it's time for all of us,especially men, to step up.
(01:09):
Rachael explains how simpleconversations at home can make a
difference, how male rolemodels can shape the culture of
respect and why staying silentis no longer an option.
This is an episode aboutcourage, accountability and
creating a culture where respectisn't optional.
It's expected.
If you've ever wondered how youcan be part of the solution.
(01:31):
This conversation is a powerfulplace to start, so, without
further ado, let's get into it.
Rachael Natoli (01:39):
My name is Rachael Notoli and I'm the CEO
and founder of the LokahiFoundation.
And I'm the CEO and founder ofthe Lokahi Foundation.
I was in a long-term abusiverelationship, which is what led
to me starting a charity tosupport women and children
impacted by domestic and familyabuse, and I'm a mum to
12-year-old boys and one of theworld's biggest Roosters fans.
Leon Goltsman (02:00):
Okay, Thank you for the opportunity to sit down
and talk to you, because I knowyou do amazing things, not just
here in the Sydney's easternsuburbs, but a lot of your good
work gets noticed and recognisedlots of places.
Rather than me sharing it, doyou want to tell us a little bit
about one of your most recentacknowledgements that you got
one of your recognised awards?
Rachael Natoli (02:20):
Well, maybe we should acknowledge that I was
privileged enough to benominated as a Westfield Local
Hero in Bondi Junction last yearand thank you to all those who
voted.
That meant that we actually Iwon the award of Westfield Local
Hero, but for me it's moreabout Lokahi actually being
acknowledged for all the workthat my caseworkers do on a
(02:43):
daily basis and a $20,000 checkthat goes towards all the hard
work that we do.
Leon Goltsman (02:49):
Certainly well deserved, but it's not really
all about winning awards,because I know it's nice to
receive awards and beingrecognised, but I think the real
accomplishment comes with whatyou do for people who need your
support what you do for peoplewho need your support.
So, Rachael, look, I knowexperts often point out
(03:09):
inequality and everydaydisrespect towards women are key
drivers of violence.
This suggests the language menuse daily.
Even casual jokes or commentscan either reinforce or
challenge those harmfulattitudes.
What do you think about that?
Rachael Natoli (03:21):
I actually think that language plays a huge part
in gender inequality.
I think that we all need to bemuch more aware of the language
that we're using, and it'ssomething that even I'm still
learning from.
I remember being at a forumlast year and somebody that I
have a lot of respect for in theAboriginal community in Lismore
(03:45):
spoke about the fact that wesay hey guys, when we're
actually speaking to ladies, andwhy you know why are we still
using very male, stereotypicallanguage.
So I think you know we have along way to go all of us in
correcting that.
Just to make it non-genderspecific.
We're not asking everybody tobe politically correct all the
(04:08):
time, but just to take out thegender type language that we use
every day.
Leon Goltsman (04:13):
And you mentioned why this is important.
But can I also ask you, why isit so critical for men to really
pay attention to how theycommunicate with and about women
?
Rachael Natoli (04:22):
So I think it's really important that we talk
about how both men and womencommunicate, and let's start
with the fact that genderinequality is one of the biggest
drivers of violence and abusetowards women.
And I think if we acknowledgethat from the start, we realise
what a huge job we still have todo, but also that we are making
(04:44):
some small steps towardsprogress.
I think we really do need toacknowledge the language it's
used, especially for our youngergeneration, older men and women
, you know and I'm not talkingold, I'm talking about older,
our role models for our youngergenerations, and it's up to us
(05:06):
to make sure that they're beingraised.
I'm talking about older, ourrole models for our younger
generations, and it's up to usto make sure that they're being
raised to respect the oppositegender, but also to respect
their own gender and themselvesright from the very beginning,
because respect is key.
And when we have journalists aswe did in the last couple of
weeks on mainstream radiostations, making comments about
(05:27):
female sport and let's be honest, leon, a female sport that the
World Cup a couple of years agowas one of the biggest watched
events on TV makinginappropriate comments about
female sport and referring toyour own private parts in having
(05:47):
those jokes is just soinappropriate now and says to
younger people that that's okay,that's acceptable, and we can
continue to diminish women andcontinue to put down women in
whatever roles that they'vechosen, but especially in female
sport, which is something weare trying to ensure has a
(06:08):
bigger place in our world.
Leon Goltsman (06:10):
Well, it's interesting you mentioned women
as well.
I mean one of those phrasesthat we often hear male, female,
just about everybody phraseslike boys will be boys and
having these sort of phraseshave been used for generations,
as you mentioned, to excuse ordownplay bad behavior, from
rough housing to locker roomstalk as part of normal male
(06:31):
culture, and now we know thatthat happens with female culture
as well.
Such mindsets assume that menor boys naturally talk or act a
certain way and thereforeshouldn't be held accountable
for it.
How is the boys will be boysmentally harmful when it comes
to respect for women and why dowe need to retire these lame
excuses in order to hold menaccountable for their words and
(06:54):
actions?
Rachael Natoli (06:55):
Boys will be boys is one of the worst phrases
that still exists in commonsociety and as a mother of two
young preteen boys, I think I'min a great position to be able
to discuss it.
There are certainly somebehaviours that I believe are
(07:18):
much more obvious, much morecommon in male gender children
than would be in female genderchildren.
There's no doubt that there arephysical changes that occur for
boys that they're not happeningfor girls and vice versa, and I
think you know we also need toacknowledge that as boys are
(07:38):
growing, there's lots oftestosterone going around their
bodies and women have lots ofestrogen.
You know, young girls haveestrogen, so the hormones are
very, very different.
Does that mean that it's okayfor boys to physically assault
each other?
Absolutely not, because when weaccept that they're physically
assaulting each other, we areteaching them that it's okay to
(08:00):
physically assault somebody.
Is it okay when boys walkaround on the streets spitting
on the floor?
No, it's absolutely notacceptable.
We wouldn't accept that inadult society.
Why are we accepting it foryoung boys?
You know there's lots of littlethings like that that we need
to pick up, but thisstereotypical language of oh,
(08:23):
it's okay because they're boysis not acceptable, in the same
way that we don't say, well,girls will be girls.
That is not a common phrase, sowhy are we allowing it for men?
As a mum of 12 year old twinboys who runs a domestic abuse
charity and has always been verytough with them about respect
(08:43):
and respecting themselves andrespecting the opposite gender
and how we speak about women, Ithink what we're seeing more and
more now is the influx ofsocial media and technology and
how much that impacts our youngmen, and my boys have just
started high school.
(09:06):
One of the parents groups wastalking about chess club.
Now I think it's whether it'sacceptable or not, it's kind of
common knowledge that if you'rein chess club you're a bit of a
nerd.
Now I think again that'sbizarre and it's very
stereotypical, but you know thatthe the common misconception
about chess club.
My partner said to our boys outsaid to one of our boys at
(09:29):
dinner a couple of weeks agothat he should consider joining
chess club because he's beenplaying chess with my partner
over the summer holidays.
His response was, and I quotehell, nah, bro.
Everyone knows those in chessclub ain't getting no b****es.
Now this is from a young manwho has been raised by a single
(09:49):
mum for most of his life, whoknows all about domestic abuse
and domestic violence, who knowsall about respect for women and
yes, he was joking and no, hedoesn't normally refer to women
as b****es but that language isstill coming through, even in a
house where he knows it won't betolerated.
Leon Goltsman (10:09):
Yeah, well, a lot of the education happens at
home and at school and the otherone happens in the real world,
and you want to make sure thatby the time you get in the real
world you're equipped.
What we're talking about today,you know, not just about
children, but also the impactthat our leaders and our role
(10:29):
models have on those children.
And one of the things and we'lltalk more about that a little
bit later on but one of the mostnoticeable observations is that
most damaging remarks aboutwomen happen when the women are
not present.
I mean, the so-called lockerroom.
(10:51):
Talk amongst guys is the kindof spaces that the males feel
safe, they feel comfortable,they're protected, and yet this
private banter reflects one'strue attitude and does influence
behavior.
So why does it matter how menspeak about women when women
aren't around?
And how can men hold each otheraccountable in these moments?
Rachael Natoli (11:08):
I think it's really important you know what
both genders say in public andin private, because one you
never know who's actuallylistening.
And again I come back to ourchildren being looking to us as
role models.
But also you don't know whoyou're saying it to and what
they have personally experienced.
(11:29):
And respect has to be key toall that we are saying.
So we need to be showingrespect for everybody around us.
I think what can be verydifficult with the locker room
talk and you know what men mightsay privately is that not all
of their friends may agree.
(11:50):
Not all of the men with them atthat time may hold that opinion.
So how do men feel they can stepup and speak out against that?
And I think it can be reallydifficult.
And when we go and speak inschools about through Lakai's
education program, when I go andspeak in schools, I speak to
(12:10):
young men about being activeupstanders, not bystanders, and
how you can call it out with agroup of friends and we have to
call it out and say that's notfunny, or I think one of the
best ways to do is to actuallyput that person on the spot and
say I'm sorry, I don'tunderstand.
Can you explain it to me,because then you haven't done
(12:34):
anything other than ask them toself-reflect.
And when they have to explainit to you, it's not half as
funny as it seemed to them inthe first place.
But you know, the only way Ifeel like we're going to make a
difference with the languagethat men are using is for other
men to call them out, because ifwomen are the ones that are
(12:54):
always calling them out, they'rejust nags or they're feminists,
which nowadays is notapparently a great thing to be.
Leon Goltsman (13:03):
So, Rachael, if a teenage boy hears his dad or
idol constantly speaking aboutwomen in a dismissive or
derogatory way, he's likely toadopt similar language, isn't
that right?
Rachael Natoli (13:15):
Absolutely.
I think when young men hear amale role model whether that's
their father or theirgrandfather or an uncle, whether
it's their sports coach or ateacher anyone that they view as
a role model speakingdisrespectfully or in a
derogatory manner about women,they start to believe that that
(13:37):
is an acceptable way to speak.
It's very, very hard to undothat way of thinking when that's
what they've grown up around.
Leon Goltsman (13:45):
I think you've hit the nail right on the head.
So, on that, whatresponsibility do older or more
established men as fathers,mentors or community leaders
have in modelling respectfulcommunication towards women, and
how can these role modelsactively guide younger men to
set a better example in the waythey talk about women?
Rachael Natoli (14:04):
I think older men have a huge responsibility
in setting good examples toyounger men and to younger girls
or women about how to respectthe opposite gender.
It's not just about young men.
It's about young women too,about them learning some
(14:24):
self-respect, about them puttingboundaries in place, about them
recognising red flags.
As much as it is for young menabout learning to respect the
opposite gender and treat womenin the way that they would want
their mum, their sister,themselves to be treated.
The older men need to be showingnot only how to behave, not
(14:47):
only how to speak, not only thatwomen play a huge role in our
lives and how much women do on adaily basis in the household,
as well as trying to work and aswell as trying to do everything
else, but also, I think, insharing the load at home and
teaching these young men andwomen that they are equal with
(15:12):
their partners.
So you know they are expectedto treat their girlfriends or
their wives with respect, butthey are also expected to take
part.
They're also expected to stepup as fathers.
They're also expected to stepup in household chores.
You know it doesn't have to allfall on the women, and even
(15:34):
more so these older men, whetherthey are the dads, whether they
are the teachers, call out whenthey see young boys being
disrespectful.
And if they get called outstraight away from their older
role models, they are much lesslikely to repeat offend.
Leon Goltsman (15:50):
And that's all good to say that when the role
models are around, but withtoday's technology, I mean, it's
pretty ubiquitous.
Social media, online gaming,influencer culture we're all
exposed now more and more tomisogynistic messages of toxic
role models, at a click of abutton, from viral videos that
disparage women to online forumsthat normalise aggression.
(16:13):
I mean, the digital world canshape how young men speak and
think about women, sometimes invery troubling ways.
So how can we reach young menwho are growing up immersed in
this online culture and empowerthem to communicate respectfully
about women?
Rachael Natoli (16:28):
I'm not an expert in online culture, but
what I do know is that peoplelike Andrew Tate have become
very popular amongst younger menbecause of their money, their
power, their attractiveness,their you know attractiveness to
(16:49):
the opposite sex, and I thinkit can be very, very damaging to
young men.
I recently heard, in a lecturethat I went to about now, that
AI is so huge.
If you are on social media andyou're a young man who clicks on
one thing, it can lead you downa very dark rabbit hole and,
(17:14):
before they know it, they arebeing very much exposed to a lot
of misogynist information, andthat that can be really harmful.
So what can we do to help ouryoung ones to, um, to make sure
that they aren't exposed to that, or at least make sure they
have, you know, a much morebalanced view?
(17:35):
I think we have to keep thosethose uh doors of communication
open.
As hard as it is with youngteens or preteens, we have to
just keep talking to them.
I think that the move towardslimiting social media or banning
social media under a certainage is a great one, because it
only serves to protect ourchildren for a little bit longer
(17:57):
and allow them to be kids.
It's about also making surethat there's education in
schools For me, I believe thatshould be from kindergarten
onwards about respectfulrelationships, about toxic
masculinity.
So if we can educate ourchildren year on year, they have
(18:17):
a much better chance ofunderstanding when they are
exposed to that kind of stuffstuff that it's actually not
something that they want to lookinto.
Leon Goltsman (18:28):
So my understanding of what you're
saying is empowering youngchildren, more or less, to be
able to make decisions forthemselves.
Rachael Natoli (18:36):
Yeah, absolutely .
It's all about empowering ouryoung ones to make the right
decisions themselves.
We know that as they're goingthrough their teens, they're
much less likely to listen totheir parents, so we need to
empower them to make thosesensible decisions themselves.
Leon Goltsman (18:51):
Starting children early, and then eventually,
young men will enter theworkforce, and when they do,
some of them may end up in maledominated or traditional blokey
industries.
So, Rachael, what advice wouldyou give to young men in the
workplace, from apprentices andnew grads to team leaders and
veterans, about challengingdisrespectful talk or attitudes
(19:12):
toward women on the job?
Rachael Natoli (19:13):
For young men coming into new workplaces,
especially for apprentices andnew grads.
I think it's very, verydifficult for them to challenge
attitudes and behaviour wherethey're going in as the new kid
and they're trying to establishthemselves and that's their main
focus.
I think what they need toremember is that you start as
(19:37):
you mean to go on and if theyaccept those attitudes,
disrespectful comments or sexistjokes from the beginning,
they're actually going to haveto accept them for the long run,
whereas, you know, I thinkthere are ways that they can do
it without making themselvesunpopular.
You know, when we look at maledominated sporting codes, we've
(20:01):
come a long way in in the lastfew years but we still have a
long way to go.
Being an NRL fan myself, Ifound it very, very difficult
that we have introduced as acode less tolerance on violence
against and disrespect towardswomen and yet we've had players
(20:23):
still allowed to play afterthey've been convicted whether
it's been in a criminal court,whether it's been overseas or
whether it's been accused andnot actually got to a final
hearing.
And I think you know it makesit very, very difficult for
women to feel safe in thoseenvironments.
I think for the young men theyreally need to be thinking about
(20:45):
whether they're willing toaccept that behaviour long term.
And if they're not speaking tosomebody that they can trust to
say that they don't feelcomfortable in that environment
or calling it out and, as wesaid before, asking the person
to explain it, it's the best wayto do it without coming across
as being rude or confrontational, just asking them to explain
(21:06):
their joke.
We've already spoken about theimportance of role models, so I
think if you have a platformthat you can use in a positive
way, if you are a successfulsports player, if you are a
successful movie star,television star, whatever it
might be you should be usingthat for good, and many do so,
(21:29):
you know.
Let's actually celebrate thosethat are using it for good, but
you know there are some thataren't using it in the way that
they could go totally the otherway.
And when that's accepted bythose around them and their
codes allow them to keep playingor they keep being allowed to
film movies, no matter how theybehave, we end up with huge
(21:52):
issues, and I think you know, weall know about the Me Too
movement, we all know aboutHarvey Weinstein and you know
how he treated women over thecourse of his career.
So when we look at those things, we know if that had been
called out by people sooner, hewould have had to stop.
We have to, as a community,work together to make sure that
(22:15):
everybody is on the same pageand that this disrespect that
leads to violence, that leads toabuse, that leads to so much
gender inequality is nottolerated by anybody.
Leon Goltsman (22:29):
And that's really important to call things out,
especially when people are in aposition of power and they're
entrusted, they're responsiblefor other people's safety, for,
whether it's an organisation,whether it's a community,
whether it's their peers, theirfriends, their friends, they
should not turn a blind eye tothese sort of things, do you
agree?
Rachael Natoli (22:48):
Turning a blind eye is one of the worst things
that you can do, because byturning a blind eye, what you
are telling the person who hasmade those inappropriate
comments who is quite likely aperpetrator themselves is that
nobody's going to call them outand that their behaviour is
acceptable, and that you's goingto call them out and that their
behaviour is acceptable andthat you're going to let it
continue.
So we have to call out thosepoor behaviours when we see them
(23:11):
, so that those people know thatthey're on notice and you know,
we don't want them to have nofear of repercussions.
We want them to know that theyare being watched, they have
been noticed and we're going tocontinue looking at what they're
doing and how they're behaving.
Leon Goltsman (23:29):
And that does take a lot of courage and it's
important.
I mean, one of the things aboutour podcast, our program and
having these conversations is tolet people know that they're
not alone.
If they see something, theyshould call it out.
So how can we ensure that themessage of respectful
communication and zero tolerancefor abusers reaches men in all
(23:51):
communities?
What can community leaders doto make sure that men in the
local area understand thatdisrespecting women is never
okay and inspire them to be partof the solution?
Rachael Natoli (24:03):
is never okay and inspire them to be part of
the solution.
I think that this message ofrespectful communication and
zero tolerance for abuse isreally important and there's
still a huge stigma arounddomestic and family violence.
I think we don't like to talkabout it, we don't like to
acknowledge it and I thinkthat's very obvious from the
(24:23):
fact that more women weremurdered in Australia last year
than any other year previously.
And if you look at high profilepoliticians our premier in New
South Wales, our prime minister,the ministers for domestic
violence, you will not see themcomment on those statistics.
And yet when two sailorsunfortunately and very, very
(24:46):
tragically passed away in theSydney to Hobart, our Prime
Minister was happy to put a postup straight away.
That was two men really, reallytragic, very sad for their
families and you know hugecondolences for them.
But what about the 70 womenthat were murdered as a direct
result of domestic and familyviolence last year?
(25:07):
It falls on deaf ears and untilwe come together as a community
and until our community leadersstep up and lead that call, we
are going to continue to seewomen being murdered in our
country due to domestic andfamily violence.
And it's not just about thosethat are murdered.
It's about all of those womenand children that are impacted
(25:29):
every single day.
There's so much domestic andfamily violence in New South
Wales, specifically now and Ispeak about that because I was
with the police, commissionerlast week police now attend a
domestic violence incident inNew South Wales every three
minutes.
Every three minutes they'regetting a call about domestic
(25:51):
and family violence and thatcomes from this culture of
disrespect, this culture ofkeeping it behind closed doors,
this culture of not calling itout when we see it.
So you know, we haveorganisations like Our Watch
that are doing lots of researchand create some great
(26:15):
initiatives to support.
But ultimately, we have toinvolve the whole community.
So if you're a community leaderand you really want to make a
difference, you need to go andspeak to your local domestic
violence services, find out whatthey're seeing.
You need to involve victimsurvivors of domestic and family
abuse because they've lived it.
(26:35):
They know what's going onbehind closed doors and they
often have great ideas of how wecan combat the awful situation
that this country is livingthrough with domestic violence.
So, involving as many people asyou can.
But we have to stop callingthis a women's problem.
It is everybody's problem.
Yes, it's mainly menperpetrating violence against
(26:58):
women.
That's what the stats tell us.
But it is not only menperpetrating against women.
There are women that perpetrateagainst men.
There are same-sexrelationships where rates are
very, very high.
We have to tackle it as a wholecommunity and we have to bring
good men, respectful men,powerful men, into this
(27:22):
conversation, into thesecommunity calls, if we really
want to make a difference.
Leon Goltsman (27:28):
So there are a lot of worthy causes out there
who are doing great things andtrying to.
How effective are suchorganisations in actually
shifting men's attitude andbehaviours?
And how can men who arelistening today move beyond just
wearing, say, a white ribbon orsigning a pledge?
What does it look like to liveout the commitments in everyday
(27:48):
life and truly be a role modelin today's community?
Rachael Natoli (27:52):
I think if you truly want to be a role model in
today's community, when youcome to gender inequality,
domestic and family abuse, cometo gender inequality, domestic
and family abuse, we have totake it back.
We have to step back, and oneof the biggest issues that I
have at the moment is even womendon't want to call themselves a
(28:15):
feminist.
Now, I've had friends of minethat say that they won't call
themselves feminists becausethere's this old fashioned view
of what a feminist is.
If you Google feminism,feminism is a movement that
advocates for the equality ofmen and women in all aspects of
(28:36):
life.
Now, when you break it down toa definition, how many people do
you know that do not want menand women to have equity and
equality?
There's many of us that disagreethat men and women have
different skills in some areasand that not as many women are
(28:59):
going to be as strong as men.
Physically strong.
There are certainly women thatare stronger than many men, but
generally men have differenthormones and they are designed
differently, so they are goingto have different skills and
expertise than women.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
We are talking about them beingtreated in the same way to
(29:20):
achieve gender equity.
Now, if women won't callthemselves feminists, how can we
expect men to call themselvesfeminists?
And I know quite a few feministmen or men that would call
themselves feminists, but notnecessarily openly.
Now imagine if we could getmore men to acknowledge feminism
(29:41):
for what it actually is.
That would then mean that theywere more willing to step up and
take action towards genderequity.
If we have better gender equity, if we achieve that, we're less
likely to have domestic andfamily violence, because with
gender equity means we have morerespect for each other.
(30:03):
We have to take it back tothose basics so that we can try
and achieve what we want to, andthose male role models need to
go and look up feminism, be ableto call themselves feminists
and say that they actually wantto have gender equity.
Leon Goltsman (30:20):
So there's a lot of valuable information covered
here.
As a final takeaway, what isthe one practical change of
action you would urge every manlistening to adopt, in how he
talks or behaves, to set abetter example and help create a
safer, more respectful culturefor women and girls?
What's a realistic startingpoint for men who want to make a
(30:41):
positive impact right now?
Rachael Natoli (30:44):
For men that are wanting to make a positive
impact right now.
I think there's a whole list ofthings that I can suggest, but
if we're talking about being amale role model, then start
calling out toxic behaviour,start calling out toxic
masculinity, start calling outdisrespectful comments.
Go home and speak to yourchildren tonight your son and
(31:08):
your daughter, or either orabout what respect is how they
should be treating others, whatthey should be willing to accept
themselves, and let's start bymaking those small differences
at home.
And you know, if you want to domore than that, there is so
much more that you can do interms of supporting local
(31:34):
domestic and family violencecharities.
But you know, it all starts athome and it starts with the way
that we speak ourselves and theway that our children or our
nieces and nephews or otherchildren nearby, hear us speak.
If we can get that right and wecan call out the other toxic
behaviours that we see, we havea chance of actually changing
(31:57):
the narrative.
Leon Goltsman (31:58):
Rachael, thank you so much.
So if people wanted to help out, get involved, how might they
go about doing that?
Rachael Natoli (32:07):
If people want to get involved with Lokahi
specifically, then they canemail us.
They can contact us on socialmedia.
Our website is Lokahi and weare on Facebook, linkedin and
Instagram if people want to lookus up.
(32:28):
But I also suggest that youlook up your local domestic
violence charities.
This isn't about Lokahispecifically, but about
supporting women and childrenthat are impacted by domestic
and family abuse.
So, no matter where you are, goand find a local charity that
you can support.
It doesn't have to be financialsupport.
(32:48):
You might have skills that youcan offer.
You might be happy to fundraisefor them.
You might be able to volunteerfor them in some way.
There is so much that we can do, and I'm sure they would love
to bring women and men intotheir organisations in some way.
To you know, show that we canall work together to try and
(33:11):
solve this issue.
Leon Goltsman (33:12):
Very good advice.
So there's a lot of greatorganisations around Australia,
and what you said to me a whileback is that it's great doing
good things for your community,that when more people come
together, you cooperate togetherand because of that, you're
able to have a much louder voice.
Rachael Natoli (33:33):
Absolutely, you know, the more of us that can
work together, the bigger impactwe're able to have a much
louder voice.
Absolutely, you know, the moreof us that can work together,
the bigger impact we're going tohave.
Likahi means unity and harmony,because what I saw when I was
leaving domestic violence wasthat there wasn't enough unity
between services, and so if wetake this holistic approach and
we bring everybody into thisconversation and we work with
(33:53):
other services, other agencies,and build really strong
relationships, then we can helpmore people, but we can also
have much better results, muchfaster, for those women and
children that have been impacted.
Leon Goltsman (34:08):
Well, Rachael, thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for everything thatyou do.
Really appreciate you coming onthe show and I'm sure a lot of
people will appreciate that aswell thank you for having me,
leon, I appreciate it and thatbrings us to the end of another
meaningful episode of engagingconversations.
a heartfelt thank you to Rachaelnatale, not only for sharing
(34:31):
her personal journey, but theincredible work she's doing
through the Lokahi Foundation tohelp build safer, more
respectful communities.
If there's one thing that wecan all take away from today,
it's that language matters.
The words we use, whether athome or at work, or with our
mates, shape how we think, howwe treat others and the kind of
(34:51):
culture we create.
Respect starts with us, andit's something that's revealed
through our actions, not justwords.
I'd also like to take theopportunity to express my
gratitude for the incredibleresponse to our last episode
with Theo from Hillview Op Shop.
After hearing how they gaveback over $1 million to the
community in just one year alone, one listener told us after
(35:15):
hearing that podcast, I want tovisit that place and get
involved as well, and that'sexactly what this show is about
sharing stories that inspireaction.
Now, if you've made it this far,can I ask you for a quick
favour, very quick one.
Think of one person, just one,who would benefit from hearing
today's conversation, and Iwould really appreciate it if
(35:37):
you could please share it withthem.
That simple act alone mightopen up a door, spark a
reflection or even change aperspective.
And something I'm reallyexcited to share with you is
that, as of next week, we'retaking engaging conversations
beyond the studio.
We're taking engagingconversations beyond the studio,
connecting with voices fromevery corner of the country,
(35:58):
from local legends to communityleaders, professionals and
people in positions of influence.
We're sharing stories thatmatter, whether it's from our
own neighborhoods or farreaching towns.
We're giving people a platformand empowering them to use it.
There's so much more to come.
A huge thank you, as always, toNiaz Cannoth from Invest
Intelligence for his support.
Thank you.
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