Transforming workplace culture isn't about quick fixes but fundamentally understanding what drives human performance. Trudy MacDonald, award-winning global keynote speaker and founder of Talent Code HR, brings over two decades of organisational psychology expertise to this illuminating conversation on building high-performance teams, particularly in regional areas.
Trudy unveils the psychology behind what motivates young professionals in today's challenging economic landscape. She dismantles the false dichotomy between supportive leadership and accountability, revealing how the most engaging workplaces seamlessly blend both. "If we have high levels of empathy and support without accountability, we risk creating entitlement," she explains, offering instead a framework that balances psychological safety with clear expectations.
For leaders struggling with talent retention, Trudy provides refreshingly practical guidance. Beyond competitive compensation (which "takes money off the table"), she emphasises creating workplaces where people feel genuinely valued while having opportunities to grow. Her innovative concept of "WOMBAT hunting"—identifying Waste of Money, Bandwidth, and Time—offers a transformative approach to productivity that both individuals and organisations can immediately implement.
Drawing fascinating parallels between her competitive rowing career and business leadership, Trudy demonstrates how high-performance habits create the "recipe for success" in any domain. Her insights on upward mentoring, building resilience through change, and connecting personal values to the company mission provide a comprehensive blueprint for creating workplaces where everyone thrives.
Whether leading a business, managing a diverse team, or seeking to elevate your professional impact, this conversation delivers actionable strategies that blend cutting-edge psychology with real-world experience. Connect with Trudy at talentcodeHR.com.au to continue your leadership journey.
Thank you for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leon Goltsman (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of
Engaging Conversations.
I'm your host, Leon Goltsman,and each week I sit down with
the people who are helping shapestronger communities through
leadership, innovation and theeveryday actions that make a
lasting difference.
This episode is proudly broughtto you by Niaz Cannoth and the
team at Invest Intelligencevisionary supporters of progress
(00:22):
, purpose and possibility.
Today we have the honor ofwelcoming a truly exceptional
guest, trudy MacDonald.
Trudy is an award-winningglobal keynote speaker and the
founder of Talent Code HR, aconsultancy renowned for
transforming businesses acrossAustralia and beyond.
With over two decades ofexperience in organisational
(00:45):
psychology, trudy has workedwith Fortune 500 ASX, 100 firms
and some of the mostrecognisable brands, driving
performance through strategic,people-first initiatives.
Her work spans Australia, newZealand, the United States and
parts of Asia.
She has been named Speaker ofthe Year by the Executive
Connection, the world's largestCEO network, a testament to her
(01:09):
global impact and deep expertise.
In this episode, trudy sharessome powerful insights on
building high-performancecultures, attracting and
retaining top talent, andleading with clarity, empathy
and purpose.
We also dive into the criticalrole of young employees,
especially in Australia'sfastest growing regional areas,
(01:31):
where the future of businessdepends on how we engage,
empower and inspire the nextgeneration.
Whether you're a seniorprofessional or an emerging
leader, trudy's wisdom willchallenge your thinking and
elevate your impact.
We're incredibly fortunateTrudy made time to join us, and
I promise this is a conversationyou're going to love, so,
(01:52):
without further ado, let's getinto it.
Trudy MacDonald (01:56):
My name's Trudy MacDonald and I'm the Managing
Director of Talent Code HR, andwhat I'm really passionate about
is working with leaders andorganisations all over the
country, but particularly in theLake Macquarie area, to help
them build high performanceorganisations, and I do that by
getting the people side of thebusiness right.
So, as many of you wouldappreciate, there is no silver
(02:19):
bullet when it comes tomobilising your people and
making sure that they'reproductive and engaged.
It comes to mobilising yourpeople and making sure that
they're productive and engagedmany different elements to that
and it's the complexity of thatsituation that really gives me
the drive and the passion to behelping leaders all over the
country, and mindset is a veryimportant part of it all.
Leon Goltsman (02:37):
Now you've consistently highlighted that
mindset is the foundation ofperformance.
How can cultivating the rightmindset amongst young
professionals, especially inregional areas, drive
productivity and long-termbusiness success?
Trudy MacDonald (02:54):
It's really interesting, I think, when we
look at the younger generationsand trying to tap into their
mindset and what it is that willmake them productive and make
them show up to work, wanting todo their best work, I think
we've got to really not onlyunderstand where they're coming
from, but we also need tounderstand the basic psychology
of what makes people tick, andI've got a background as an
(03:14):
organisational psychologist, soone of the things I'm really
focused on is getting to theroot cause of what it is that
drives performance.
So, with younger people today, Ithink one of the things we need
what it is that drivesperformance.
So, with younger people today,I think one of the things we
need to recognise is that theywant to feel valued and they
want to feel appreciated.
So if we want them to give us,as an employer, a mindset of
(03:38):
discretionary effort and I'mgoing to do my best work when I
show up every day one of thethings that they will expect in
return is feeling valued,feeling appreciated and feeling
a sense of connection.
And if I can give you somepractical examples from the Lake
Macquarie area, which is animportant region in New South
(03:59):
Wales, there's a young personthat I know well who works in a
cafe.
She's at university at themoment and she will come home
from her seven to eight hourshift in the cafe and I'll ask
her.
I'll ask her you know, how wasyour day at work?
And she'll say it was fantastic.
And I get curious when I hearthat kind of response and I'll
(04:20):
ask what is it that makes thisworkplace fantastic for you?
And she'll say things such isit that makes this workplace
fantastic for you?
And she'll say things such asit's the vibe, or I just feel
like that everybody accepts me,or that you know, I really love
it when customers will tell methat I've done a really great
job and they'll engage in someconversation with me.
So I think one of the things torecognise is if, as an employer
(04:45):
, we can make an effort tocreate a great work environment,
make sure we get to know ouryoung people as people and make
sure they feel that real senseof belonging that's going to
really shift their mindset.
But there's another piecebeyond that, because that's just
the foundation that we need tolay.
The next piece is aroundaccountability, and I think for
(05:07):
a lot of leaders and managers,accountability can feel like it
has to be a difficultconversation but in fact, if we
do accountability well, it's notpunishment, it's actually one
of the most motivating things wecan do for people and, I think,
for young people.
If we can create a healthyenvironment that incorporates
(05:27):
accountability, it will actuallyshift their mindset.
And this is what it looks likevery practically.
As a leader, we need to makesure our young people know
what's expected of them.
So when they're working for us,we need to be really clear in
saying this is what's expectedand this is what it means to be
performing in your job.
So that's the firstconversation really clear in
saying this is what's expectedand this is what it means to be
(05:47):
performing in your job.
So that's the firstconversation.
The second part of theconversation is one of
instilling a sense ofself-belief.
So we need to go to our youngpeople who, remember, may not
have the confidence or theskills to do what we're asking
them to do, and actually say Ibelieve in you, you can do this
and I'm going to support you andI'll invest in developing you
and your training.
But you've got this and I'vegot a belief that you're going
(06:09):
to be great.
That's the second thing.
Psychologically, that's soimportant.
And then there's a reallyimportant third step, and that
third step is I'm watching you.
Now, I'm watching you doesn'tneed to be a negative thing.
However, many of the listenerswill have heard the expression
we manage what we measure.
So being really clear on whatit is that I expect of you.
(06:34):
I believe that you can do thisand when you do it right, I'm
going to catch you doing goodthings and I'm going to tell you
that you've done it right andthat's going to help.
And when you don't do it right,I'm going to bring that to your
attention as well and we'regoing to tell you that you've
done it right, and that's goingto help.
And when you don't do it right,I'm going to bring that to your
attention as well, and we'regoing to unpack why didn't it
quite work right and how can Isupport you and I think, leon,
(06:54):
with those two elements.
If you can get those rightwithin the culture of regional
businesses, young people willwalk over hot coals for you and
that's one of the hardest thingis retaining good quality talent
.
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (07:10):
And that's always been a challenge.
What are the most effectivestrategies you've seen for
engaging and retaining youngeremployees in these environments?
Trudy MacDonald (07:17):
Leon, I don't think we can shy away from the
fact that the economy is toughand the cost of living is high,
and young people are reallyfeeling the burden of that.
So when I talk about what itmeans to engage people and what
it means to retain people,there's a hierarchy of things
that we need to get right, andright at the foundation is the
(07:40):
concept that money does matter.
Now, sometimes money is a bitof a dirty word and, as an
employer, we might think youknow what?
If money is somebody's keydriver, they're not quite the
right person for us.
Well, that's fair enough.
However, if the money is notright, if the money is not fair,
if the money is not right forthat person to live a reasonable
(08:02):
life, then money will be thebiggest motivator.
So here's my recommendationwhen it comes to remunerational
money Pay your people fairly and, if you can afford it, pay them
just above average, and you canget data that's freely
available that will let you knowwhat people should be paid in
different industries, whetherthat be a cafe or a hairdresser
(08:25):
or a real estate agent.
And if you can let people knowthat you are going to be paying
them not only fairly, but alittle bit more than average,
they will perceive that they'repaid fairly.
And then we take money off thetable, and that's actually our
objective with money.
We don't want it to be the keydriver, we want to get it off
the table.
So let's assume that we've gotthat in place.
(08:46):
That's a really importantfoundation for retaining people.
But then the thing that'sactually going to retain people
and make a difference is anotherhierarchy of things, and one of
them I've already mentioned,which is this sense of
connection and belonging and, inthe young person's language,
the vibe.
The vibe feels good when I workhere.
You can also call thatorganisational culture.
(09:07):
Beyond that, we start to lookat things such as what's
referred to as psychologicalsafety, and what that refers to
is do I feel safe in thisworkplace, speaking up, having a
voice, being asked my opinion?
Do I feel safe making mistakesand know that I'm not going to
(09:29):
get yelled at or I'm not goingto be made to feel like I'm a
failure, but rather it's alearning opportunity.
So if we can create that kindof environment, what you'll find
is not only will engagement gothrough the roof because people
feel this sense of connectionand purpose, but you'll also
find that people will stay withyou.
(09:50):
Now, when we talk about youngpeople, I think it's worth
recognising it's not aone-size-fits-all.
So you may have young peoplewho have left school without any
tertiary qualifications andmaybe they're working in retail.
You may have young people whoare going through an
apprenticeship, or maybe they'reworking in retail.
You may have young people whoare going through an
apprenticeship, or maybe they'rein a trade.
You may have young people whoare in university and they're
(10:11):
working as a side gig, or eventhey've finished their degree
and they're now working in aprofessional environment.
So there's not a one size fitsall here.
However, the concepts that I'mtalking about here, I think,
relate to most.
There is another element,though, and I want to just
reintroduce money back into theequation.
For some roles, having someform of incentive scheme to
(10:35):
drive retention and thebehaviours and the outcomes that
you're looking for can also bereally, really effective, and an
example of that would be aretail environment or a real
estate environment.
With a lot of the young peoplethat I talk to, I'll hear from
them that if there is anincentive and it's not
discretionary and this is areally important point there
(10:56):
needs to be clear criteria.
What do I need to do to earnthat incentive that can be a
really important driver ofengagement and retention as well
.
Leon Goltsman (11:04):
Incentive that can be a really important driver
of engagement and retention aswell, and, from what I'm hearing
, if people follow those stepsand components, in the long term
it'll probably save them money,won't it?
Trudy MacDonald (11:18):
Oh, absolutely.
And when we start to talk aboutincentive schemes and talking
about paying people fairly, Ithink most leaders and managers
and business owners wouldrecognise how costly it is when
you do lose somebody.
Having to rehire, retrain itabsolutely does save you money.
And the other thing withincentive schemes, if they can
be strategically aligned to whatthe business outcomes are that
you're looking for so maybe it'sbetter customer service, maybe
(11:39):
it's increasing the value ofeach transaction then what
you'll find is you've got awin-win situation.
I think one of the mostimportant things to think about
when you're trying to boostproductivity is to recognise
that accountability is a reallyimportant part of the equation.
And, as mentioned earlier, it'simportant that you can be
really clear with people onwhat's expected of them and then
(12:02):
making sure that you'remeasuring that.
Now the measurement of thatneeds to be done in a way that's
psychologically safe, so youdon't want people to feel
punished if they're not doingtheir job correctly, but rather
it needs to be a coachingconversation.
It needs to be a high supportconversation.
One of the really interestingthings, I think, for leaders to
get their head around,particularly in regional areas,
(12:24):
is that over the last few years,we've become very empathetic
towards our employees, and whatI mean by that is employees come
first, their needs come first.
So we've been very empatheticto understanding that our young
people want flexibility.
Our young people may want towork from home.
Our young people have a desireto travel and subsequently maybe
(12:50):
not work normal work hours.
So there's a lot of give andthere's a lot of support, and in
order to attract people,particularly in regions, a lot
of employers have had to offer alot of benefits.
So this is what it's going tofeel like when you come.
If we have high levels ofempathy and support in our
(13:13):
organisation and that's notbalanced with accountability, we
risk creating a sense ofentitlement.
And this is where I've seen alot of leaders are really
struggling with young peoplethat you give them a little bit
and then that becomes anentitlement, and then they want
a little bit more, and then theywant a little bit more and
suddenly it becomes verylopsided and I'm seeing leaders
(13:34):
who don't necessarily feel thattheir business is performing,
but I'm having to give more andmore to my employees.
So the thing to get right here,and the balance we need to get
right, is how do I balance thatempathy and that great culture
and work environment withaccountability.
And if I can share anotherexample with you accountability
(13:57):
and if I can share anotherexample with you, working with
an organisation in the LakeMacquarie area a blue-collar
workforce and we were supportingthe organisation to improve
their accountability practicesand one of the most simple
things we did is, for eachperson's job, we made it very
clear what great performancelooks like and they knew that
every quarter they would have ameeting with their manager to
(14:20):
discuss how they wereprogressing against that.
And I remember one of thegentlemen came up to me after I
finished launching thisparticular initiative and he
said Trudy, I just wanted toshare with you that I am so
delighted that this has been putinto place.
And I said well, that's great,tell me what's going through
your mind.
And he said well, previously Iwould have catch-ups with my
(14:43):
manager and the conversation wasoften along the lines of you
just need to do better becauseJohnny's working harder than you
or Susie is able to producemore output than you.
You need to be more like them.
It was constantly comparing toanother person and he said you
know what?
It was so demotivating becausethere was always somebody better
(15:05):
than me.
He said what I really likeabout this program is it's just
about me.
It doesn't matter how I'mcomparing to anyone else.
I know what success looks likein this job.
I know if I can doesn't matterhow I'm comparing to anyone else
.
I know what success looks likein this job.
I know if I can deliver on that, I'm going to be rewarded.
And now I've got a benchmarkthat I can work towards.
Leon Goltsman (15:23):
And one of the benchmark is to inspire people
to become leaders.
Trudy, you often speak aboutthe importance of building
future ready leaders.
What core leadershipcapabilities should regional
businesses be nurturing in theiryounger professionals right now
?
Trudy MacDonald (15:38):
Our young people are our future leaders,
and I think we need to look atthem through that lens, and
every day that they're workingfor us is an opportunity to
build their capabilities.
If I look at what it takes tobe leading now, in 2025, and
start to look at what it's goingto mean to lead, moving forward
, there's a number of attributesthat we need to be building in
(16:00):
our younger people.
One is a sense of autonomy andbeing empowered, and if you look
at all the different ways thatyou can develop people there's
training programs, there'scourses that you can send them
off to do some further study Allof the research will tell us
the single best way to buildsomebody's development is to
(16:23):
increase their autonomy or toincrease their level of
responsibility, and I think moreand more we need younger people
to feel empowered, to be ableto think for themselves, to make
decisions, not coming to theirmanagers saying what do I do now
?
Or, even worse, waiting to betold what to do.
So that would be one attribute,and in order to do that,
(16:44):
increasing autonomy andresponsibility and holding
people accountable for that andcatching them doing good things
is a really important framework.
I think the second thing isrecognising that technology and
AI will continue to increase ata rapid pace and our younger
people we've got to remindourselves have grown up with
(17:06):
this.
It's second nature to them.
So, creating space and forumswithin your businesses for them
to lead initiatives or to bepart of project teams that are
possibly cross-generational,where they can contribute their
ideas around technology and howit can help your business.
I think that's an incredibleopportunity, because what it
(17:28):
does is it starts to buildskills around real-life problem
solving, is it starts to buildskills around real-life problem
solving.
It starts to tap into thisfeeling of being valued and
creating a real sense of purpose, and all of these things are
going to set people up to befuture ready as leaders.
Leon Goltsman (17:45):
And, trudy, you have touched on AI, but also,
right now, where we are.
We're facing the mostunpredictable times since World
War II.
Even large organisations thatused to have short, medium,
long-term plans, they're noteven looking at it anymore, like
that.
Everything is now a short-termplan and we know that change and
uncertainty are part of today'sbusiness landscape.
(18:07):
I mean, that's how things areright now and younger
professionals they're navigatingit in real time.
How can leaders support aresilient, adaptive mindset in
younger staff to help themthrive through this change?
Trudy MacDonald (18:22):
Leon, I think with younger people, there is a
huge amount of change, as weknow, in the workplace and as
leaders.
If we want to be supportingthem, to be more resilient,
there's a number of things thatwe can do, and I think this
comes back to understanding thepsychology of change.
If, as human beings, we feelthat change is being imposed on
us, generally we lose trust withthe individual who's imposing
(18:47):
that change, because they'remaking us feel uncertain,
insecure, less competent, and weresist change for that reason.
However, the good news is thatif we feel as though we're
somewhat in control of thechange that's happening, we have
a very different view of change.
Change is actually exciting.
Change is about progress.
(19:07):
It's about innovation.
So one of the simplest things wecan do with our young people in
our teams is bring them on thechange journey with us.
And there's a few simplestthings we can do with our young
people in our teams is bringthem on the change journey with
us.
And there's a few things thatwe can do there.
Number one make sure thatyou're really clear around why.
What's the vision?
Where are we going with thischange?
The second thing is helpingthem understand how it's going
(19:31):
to impact them and creating thespace to have those
conversations.
But I think, more importantlyand more excitingly, help them
understand that you don't haveall the answers, and how they
can be part of that changeprocess.
And I think, looking at AI asan example, there's an
incredible amount of change and,as you mentioned, leon, many
(19:53):
organisations are not engagingin long-term planning anymore.
It's quite short term If we canengage our younger people to
help us determine how the changeis going to be executed, and
that may be just creating forumsfor them to share ideas or
share perspectives.
Often you'll find thatresilience builds through that
(20:13):
process.
I like to think aboutresilience as being a muscle, so
if we don't use it, itatrophies.
But if we do use it so if we'vegot constant exposure to change
what happens is that resiliencemuscle gets strong and suddenly
we find that we can navigatethings quickly.
So that would be one thing Makesure that your younger people
(20:33):
are part of the change.
Don't do change to them.
Make them part of it.
The second thing is recognisingthe importance of support
networks, so creating forums totalk through the impact of
change, to talk through feelings, to talk through how we're
going, and that may be throughone-on-one check-ins or it may
be with their peer group.
(20:54):
That's another really importantelement to help people build
resilience.
Leon Goltsman (20:59):
And it's all really about trust and having
respect for the organisation.
I mean, you mentionedpreviously that strong culture
starts with aligned values andwith that, how can organisations
help younger employees connecttheir personal values with the
company's mission in not justany way in a meaningful way?
Trudy MacDonald (21:17):
So a company's values really describe the way
we do things around here and,subsequently, what's important
to us.
And I think it's so importantthat you can get younger people
to authentically connect withthe values of your organisation,
because if you can create thatconnection, what it does is it
creates a sense of purpose, itcreates a sense of belonging and
(21:41):
with that foundation, you'llget a whole lot of discretionary
effort from your younger people.
It's interesting a lot oforganisations have what I call
shadow values, so they may havetheir stated values, and most
organisations have prettysimilar ones around integrity
and teamwork and accountabilityand client focus and trust.
I'm sure you've all heard thosebefore.
(22:02):
However, the way that peoplebehave in organisations may not
always reflect those values, andthat's what's referred to as
shadow values is what's reallygoing on.
So one of the really importantthings, particularly for younger
people when they come into anorganisation, is, first of all,
to share the values of theorganisation, and you may refer
(22:23):
to them as values or you mayjust say this is the way we do
things around here, this is whatwe value, this is what we
respect.
What can be really important interms of creating that
connection for them personallyis to engage in a conversation
with them around their personalgoals.
Now, when I talk about personalgoals, there's two elements to
(22:45):
that.
There's their work-relatedaspiration and goals when do you
see yourself going in thefuture?
And then there's personal goals, and I think, for young people
particularly, most of them havesome pretty strong personal
goals and a lot of it mayrevolve around travel or getting
exposure to broaderopportunities or contributing to
society or the environment,doing something that's
(23:07):
purposeful and meaningful, andthat's a real shift with the
current younger generation.
If you can create some space tounpack that with them, to
understand what's important tothem, then you've got the
opportunity not only to draw theconnection between what's
important to them and the valuesof the organisation, so that
they can see the connection, butmore practically, you can
(23:31):
actually show how you cansupport that individual to meet
their personal or theirwork-related aspirations or
goals.
So an example might be if youasked a younger person where do
you see yourself in the futureand let's assume that maybe
they're engaging in some studywhile they're working they might
say you know what I really wantto be in a management or a
(23:52):
leadership role at some point inmy future.
That's where I see myself If youcould then share with them.
Well, one of the things that'sreally important to us in our
business is that everybody'scontinuing to learn and grow,
because we want to make surethat your experience here, for
however long it is, is onethat's fulfilling for you and is
(24:12):
setting you up.
How would you feel if, once weget you up to speed in your
current role and you'reperforming that, we start to put
a development plan in place foryou so that we can start to
build the capabilities to setyou up onto that leadership or
that management track thatyou're interested in?
I think that's a reallypowerful way to connect people
(24:33):
to values.
But, as you can see, and as youcan imagine if, as a young
person, if your employer wasmaking that kind of commitment
to you, you're going to beworking really hard for them.
Leon Goltsman (24:45):
Absolutely, I think a good sign of a
successful company isn't onethat just puts money in the
shareholder's pocket, but it'salso the one that's creating
future leaders and it makessociety better because of the
way that it treats its staffAbsolutely.
And that leads me to bringingthis up, trudy, that you've
always championed the role ofcontinuous development and
(25:07):
keeping teams future fit.
What practical steps canbusinesses in regional areas
take to promote a learningculture that young professionals
genuinely want to be a part of?
Trudy MacDonald (25:17):
Creating a learning culture is so critical,
and I think one of the thingsI've seen a lot of organizations
do in regions is a concept ofupward mentoring, and what it is
is it's really acknowledgingthe value and the expertise and
the mindsets that our youngerpeople bring into the
organisation and recognisingthat some of us that have been
(25:39):
around for a while have a wholelot to learn from the younger
generation.
So this is about reallyempowering our younger people
and if you can do that with realbusiness challenges, with real
business challenges.
So an example may be that wewant to improve our customer
experience and putting that outthere as a business problem and
(26:01):
getting some younger people toactually work on that initiative
with some other more tenuredpeople and engage in upward
mentoring.
So giving them permission toactually lead the initiative, to
put the ideas on the table, tothink differently.
I think that's one of the mostpractical things you can do to
create a learning culture.
It's less about doing furtherstudy.
(26:23):
It's more about real-timeproblems and actually bringing
your younger people into theconversation and empowering them
to actually have a voice andlistening to them.
Now, what that may mean is youmay try some things, they may
not work.
But it's that mindset that ifwe're going to innovate and if
we're going to learn, we willmake mistakes.
(26:44):
That's part of the process.
Let's make it safe to makemistakes and, in fact, let's
even celebrate the mistakes,because it means that we're
trying different things, whichthen leads to a really powerful
conversation around what have wejust learned?
And, with that learning, wheredo we go from here?
What are the next steps?
Leon Goltsman (27:01):
And there's no such thing as a mistake when you
actually take it as a learningexperience, because sometimes
it's because of that that'spaved the way to something much
bigger and better, and youwouldn't get there unless you
actually had that occur to you.
Absolutely, I mean, that's kindof been the story of my life.
Every time something happens,you kind of look at it, reflect
back.
I mean, one of the things aswell is keeping your journal.
(27:22):
Are there any ways that youmight recommend for people, not
just young people, but anyonewho wants to look back and see
where they can improve?
Trudy MacDonald (27:33):
So one of the things that's really powerful is
, as we start to move forward inthis environment is having a
mindset of continuous learning,and for many people, they may
not take the time to stop andreflect on what am I doing well
and what can I improve on.
So there's certainly sometechniques that individuals can
use.
One of those might bejournaling, and journaling is
(27:59):
really powerful, not only justto get things out of your mind,
but to start to think about whatam I doing well, where are some
areas that I could do better,and then, off the back of that,
what's one thing that I could doabout this?
But let me share with yourlisteners another really simple
framework that I find a lot ofindividuals will use effectively
(28:22):
, and it goes a little bit likethis Think back over the last
quarter or it might be the lastyear and think about all of the
things that you've been doing atwork, specifically how you've
been spending your time, and youcan ask yourself what's the
great work that I've been doing?
Now, the definition of greatwork is not great quality.
It's about work that's addingfuture value to the business.
(28:44):
So this might be bringing newideas to the table, or working
on strategic initiatives orworking on a new product for the
business, for example.
That would be great work.
You can then ask yourselfwhat's the good work that I've
been doing?
And you can think about thegood work as the operational
work that you're doing.
It's your day job.
(29:05):
It's transactional, it'skeeping the wheels turning
within the business.
That might be meeting withcustomers.
It might be making sure thatthe shop front's clean every day
.
It might be deliveringhigh-quality products, and I'd
like to encourage the listenersto go WOMBAT hunting Now.
Wombat is an acronym and itstands for Waste of Money,
(29:27):
bandwidth and Time WOMBATs.
Leon Goltsman (29:31):
I love that.
You'll have to give us a linkto that if you've got a page on
your website.
Trudy MacDonald (29:34):
Yes, so when you go WOMBAT hunting, I think
it's really interesting to saywhat are all the things that I'm
spending time on that are notadding value?
It's a waste of money, it's awaste of my bandwidth, it's a
waste of my time.
Now, the fact that you're doingthem doesn't mean that it's not
important for the business,however, for individuals
(29:56):
thinking about their own roleand how they should be spending
their time.
Often there's work that can beautomated.
Often there's work that couldbe delegated to a young person
in your team, for example.
Often there's work that'sunproductive because we're doing
rework or we're fixing errors.
So getting a list of thosethings is really powerful.
(30:17):
And then there's one morequestion to ask yourself which
is what's missing?
And I think this is reallypowerful.
And it's asking yourself if Iwere to be the best leader, the
best manager, the best teammember, doesn't matter what the
role is what's missing?
What am I not doing?
And often it's because eitherwe don't have time or maybe we
(30:38):
don't have the confidence to dothese things.
Leon, that analysis, so foursimple columns great, good, poor
and poor is the wombats, andmissing is a really powerful way
to identify what you're doingwell, but also where the gaps
are, and the logical outcome ofthat exercise is to identify
(31:01):
just one thing you can changeUsually how do I get rid of one
wombat and how do I replace thatwith something that's missing?
Leon Goltsman (31:10):
And that goes back to what you said earlier
you can't manage what you don'tmeasure.
Trudy MacDonald (31:14):
Correct.
Leon Goltsman (31:15):
I'm really enjoying this conversation with
you and I know that if we could,I'd probably be talking to you
all day.
I'd probably be talking to youall day, but I'm very, very
mindful of your time andWombat's.
But we were just talking aboutsport and the importance of
sports with some other guestsand your passion for sport, and
I'm seeing a common denominatorthat jumps out in successful
(31:38):
people that sport in some shapeor form is a very important part
of their life.
Now your passion for sport andmovement reflects in how you
lead and coach others.
What lessons from sport haveshaped your professional outlook
, and how can business leadersapply similar principles to
mentoring young talent?
Trudy MacDonald (32:07):
I think it's interesting because a lot of
successful leaders do also haveelements of their life that
incorporate sport orcontribution to society, where
they're also high achievers.
And Leon, I've spent all of mylife engaging in some kind of
sport and that's alwayscontinued to operate in parallel
to my business focus.
So in my early days I was aballerina and I did that for
about 20 years and then, justafter COVID, I switched over to
(32:30):
rowing and I did both sports fora while and then eventually
rowing's taken over.
So for those listeners whohaven't engaged in rowing before
, it's one of the most intenseexercises.
I always thought it was goingto be this wonderful, relaxing
sport.
I've never done anything sointense in my life.
But for me it requires trainingsix days a week and often twice
(32:51):
a day.
So I'm a competitive rower andI think what's really
interesting is if I look at theparallels between what's led to
my achievements from a sportingperspective and how that links
into both the business world buthow I coach leaders and young
people, there's a few reallyimportant lessons that I think
cross over both both sides.
One is the importance of havinggoals.
(33:15):
So if, if we don't have a goal,if we're not working towards
something, it's very quickly,very easy to lose motivation and
you find that without thatdirection, you don't have
purpose around what cansometimes be the hard yards.
So, whether that be getting upat 5am in the freezing cold in
the middle of winter and gettingout there and doing the
(33:36):
scheduled workout, or whether itbe showing up to work and
recognising that you know whatI've got to make 10 sales calls
this morning and I don't reallyfeel like it but it's the
discipline of knowing thatthere's a bigger picture here
that I'm working towards.
So that would be one thing, andI think in the business world,
making sure that everybody hasclear goals that they're working
(33:57):
towards in the context of theirjob, but also in the context of
their aspirations.
So where do I see myself beyondthis job?
And that may link to somepersonal goals as well.
The other thing that I think isso incredibly powerful that
crosses both worlds, isrecognising that high
performance habits actually justset you up with a rhythm and a
(34:20):
cadence that makes it easy to dowhat sometimes would otherwise
feel tough.
So high performance habits arethings such as I will tell
myself that if I'm training sixdays a week, I will commit to
myself that I will show up,regardless of how I feel I might
(34:41):
be feeling a bit sick, I mightbe feeling a bit achy and sore,
I might be flat.
I commit to show up, and whatthat means is I get up at five
in the morning and I get dressedand I go to the shed.
Now I give myself permissionthat once I start doing what I
need to do, after 10 minutes ifI'm still not feeling it, I give
myself permission to stop.
But you know how many timesthat's happened?
(35:09):
Never, yeah.
So something really powerfulhappens, that is, if you can
embed high performance habits,it actually just becomes easy to
do the hard work.
Now, this relates to theworkplace as well.
So one of the things that Ifind is really powerful is time
management and time blocking andbeing very disciplined around
how you use your time.
So if you were in a leadershiprole, for example, you may have
(35:35):
the habit that when you come towork every morning, the first
thing you do is walk around andactually just check in with
everybody in your immediate teamand check in on how they're
going and how they're feelingand if they need any help.
Now why would you do that?
If I go back to some of theearlier points in this
conversation, it's aboutcreating the vibe.
It's about making them feelvalued.
(35:56):
It's about saying I see you andI hear you as a person lifting
the culture and that'sincredibly valuable to get high
performance people.
So that might be a highperformance habit.
If I think about somebody who'sin a desk job but maybe they're
in a business development role,maybe for the first hour of
every Thursday they block outand say I'm going to call 10 of
(36:20):
my most valued customers and I'mnot going to put down that
phone until I've been able totalk to 10 of my most valued
customers and I'm not going toput down that phone until I've
been able to talk to 10 of mycustomers.
And that becomes a habit thatyou embed.
So that would be the otherthing that I think translates
very well over from sports.
So two things number one cleargoals, so we know why we're
doing what we do.
And secondly, locking in thediscipline around high
(36:41):
performance habits, which isbasically another way of
thinking about this, is it's therecipe for success.
I know if I follow step A, b, cand D, the result will just
happen, and that applies equallyto both sport as well as the
workplace.
Leon Goltsman (36:55):
I was also thinking teamwork, and when
you're especially when you'rerowing, you've got a team, and
together everyone achieves more.
So when you've got every singleyou're rowing, you've got a
team, and together everyoneachieves more.
So when you've got every singleperson working and doing their
role, as you mentioned, the boat, the vessel is going to go
faster.
You're going to end up winningand everyone wins.
Trudy MacDonald (37:15):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (37:17):
Except the people who came second and third.
Trudy MacDonald (37:20):
And that always happens.
That's a reality.
We can't always win every time,leon, I think it's a really
important point that teamwork inthe sporting world equally
translates to the workplace, andI do a lot of work with teams
to do what I call a reset,because often I find people
become very self-interested andthey're very focused on me and
(37:45):
how I feel and my job and withthat, they'll tend to blame
others when things go wrong.
Often doing a reset can rebuildthe sense of team that actually
we're in this together, wherewe're all equal.
We've just got differentresponsibilities and the way
that we actually collaborate andcommunicate and our ways of
working are actually going toset us up to get to the ultimate
(38:08):
goal that we're looking for andthen helping people understand
what's in it for me through thatjourney as well.
Leon Goltsman (38:13):
And, trudy, I can see why you're a winner in
every sense of the word.
If there is one key takeawayand one thing that any person,
whether they're a young personstarting off or a seasoned
professional business owner, ora team of business owners, what
is that one thing that you'dlike them to take away from
today?
Trudy MacDonald (38:34):
I think the one key message that's relevant
right now for everybody is thatchange will continue to
accelerate, and for some of us,we get very comfortable doing
what we've always done.
However, if we don't move atleast with the pace of change,
(38:56):
we risk falling back so far thatwe actually can become
redundant in a way, and what Imean by that is redundant from a
work context, meaning that wedon't have the skills or the
capabilities or the mindset tocontinue to thrive and even in
the sense of our own life, ifwe're not keeping up with
(39:17):
society and the way that weengage, the way that we
contribute, how we can besupporting each other, there's
risk that we create this divide,and that can lead to people
personally experiencing stress,experiencing burnout or feeling
directionless in life.
So one of the things I wouldencourage everybody to do,
(39:40):
regardless of whether you're ayoung person in the workplace or
whether you're an establishedleader, is to be constantly
asking yourself what's the nextlittle risk that I can take?
And it can feel like a littlerisk because it's leaning into
the unknown and it's leaninginto change, but that's how we
improve and inevitably we willmake mistakes.
(40:00):
However, if we perceive thosemistakes as learning
opportunities, and that's therichness of life, then I find
that it's an opportunity to havea very rich life.
It's an opportunity to engagemore meaningfully with others,
to contribute to society morebroadly and get a real sense of
fulfillment in that process.
Leon Goltsman (40:22):
Brilliant advice, a real sense of fulfillment in
that process.
Brilliant advice Now for anyonewho wants to contact you.
What's the best way for peopleto reach out?
Trudy MacDonald (40:30):
The best way to reach out.
If anybody wants to contact meis either via my website, so
that's talentcodehrcomau.
I do a lot of speakingengagements.
I do a lot of coaching,leadership development programs
and just supporting leaders totake their businesses to the
next level.
Or they can reach out to me onLinkedIn, and that's Trudy with
(40:52):
a Y MacDonald M-A-C.
Or I've got an Instagramaccount as well, which is Trudy
MacDonald Leadership.
I post a whole lot of reallypractical tips up there, so feel
free to follow me as well.
Leon Goltsman (41:04):
Oh, fantastic.
Well, Trudy, what I will do forall the listeners is I'm going
to put that on the show notesand I'm not even going to say
goodbye to you.
I'm going to say see you soon,because I know we'll be seeing a
lot more of you and I know thatLake Macquarie and other
regional parts of Australia notjust New South Wales they need
you.
This isn't an option.
All the uncertainties and allthe talent that's out there.
(41:27):
We can do better, and I knowthat you are one of those people
that's going to bring out thebest in everyone.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
I really enjoyed this and Ilook forward to catching up with
you again soon.
Trudy MacDonald (41:38):
Thank you, leon , it's been a real pleasure.
Leon Goltsman (41:42):
What an insightful conversation with
Trudy McDonald, an absolutepowerhouse in leadership and
organisational psychology, fromunderstanding the mindset behind
high performance to buildingcultures of accountability and
trust and recognising the vitalrole of young employees,
especially in our fastestgrowing regional areas.
There's so much more to reflecton from today's episode.
(42:05):
If you'd like to connect withtrudy or learn more, visit
talentcodehrcomau.
Find her on linkedin undertrudy mcdonald and that's mac m
a c, or follow the leadershipinsights on instagram at trudy
MacDonald Leadership.
Next week, we shift gears andwelcome Samuel Kulhachi from DNR
(42:28):
, a trusted name in energy andair conditioning solutions.
Based in Morissette, dnr isknown for delivering smart,
sustainable systems that aretailored to Australian
conditions.
Samuel will walk us through howsolar and electricity actually
work, why location matters andhow understanding your setup
(42:48):
could save you money and bekinder to the environment.
Whether you're already usingsolar or just starting to
explore it, this episode will befull of practical insights
you'll want to know about and,before we wrap up, I'd love your
feedback.
What did you enjoy?
What could we do better?
Email me directly at leon atecohq.
(43:12):
com.
au, because this podcast is asmuch about your voice as it is
about the voices we bring on.
And, finally, if you foundvalue in today's episode, please
follow Engaging Conversationsand share it with your network.
Together let's grow a communityof forward thinking Australians
.
Learn, lead and make a realdifference.
I'm Leon Goltsman, and untilnext time, stay engaged, stay
(43:37):
connected and let's keepbuilding the kind of community
we all want to be a part oftogether.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of
Engaging Conversations.
I'm your host, Leon Goltsman,and each week I sit down with
the people who are helping shapestronger communities through
leadership, innovation and theeveryday actions that make a
lasting difference.
This episode is proudly broughtto you by Niaz Cannoth and the
team at Invest Intelligencevisionary supporters of progress
(00:22):
, purpose and possibility.
Today we have the honor ofwelcoming a truly exceptional
guest, trudy MacDonald.
Trudy is an award-winningglobal keynote speaker and the
founder of Talent Code HR, aconsultancy renowned for
transforming businesses acrossAustralia and beyond.
With over two decades ofexperience in organisational
(00:45):
psychology, trudy has workedwith Fortune 500 ASX, 100 firms
and some of the mostrecognisable brands, driving
performance through strategic,people-first initiatives.
Her work spans Australia, newZealand, the United States and
parts of Asia.
She has been named Speaker ofthe Year by the Executive
Connection, the world's largestCEO network, a testament to her
(01:09):
global impact and deep expertise.
In this episode, trudy sharessome powerful insights on
building high-performancecultures, attracting and
retaining top talent, andleading with clarity, empathy
and purpose.
We also dive into the criticalrole of young employees,
especially in Australia'sfastest growing regional areas,
(01:31):
where the future of businessdepends on how we engage,
empower and inspire the nextgeneration.
Whether you're a seniorprofessional or an emerging
leader, trudy's wisdom willchallenge your thinking and
elevate your impact.
We're incredibly fortunateTrudy made time to join us, and
I promise this is a conversationyou're going to love, so,
(01:52):
without further ado, let's getinto it.
Trudy MacDonald (01:56):
My name's Trudy MacDonald and I'm the Managing
Director of Talent Code HR, andwhat I'm really passionate about
is working with leaders andorganisations all over the
country, but particularly in theLake Macquarie area, to help
them build high performanceorganisations, and I do that by
getting the people side of thebusiness right.
So, as many of you wouldappreciate, there is no silver
(02:19):
bullet when it comes tomobilising your people and
making sure that they'reproductive and engaged.
It comes to mobilising yourpeople and making sure that
they're productive and engagedmany different elements to that
and it's the complexity of thatsituation that really gives me
the drive and the passion to behelping leaders all over the
country, and mindset is a veryimportant part of it all.
Leon Goltsman (02:37):
Now you've consistently highlighted that
mindset is the foundation ofperformance.
How can cultivating the rightmindset amongst young
professionals, especially inregional areas, drive
productivity and long-termbusiness success?
Trudy MacDonald (02:54):
It's really interesting, I think, when we
look at the younger generationsand trying to tap into their
mindset and what it is that willmake them productive and make
them show up to work, wanting todo their best work, I think
we've got to really not onlyunderstand where they're coming
from, but we also need tounderstand the basic psychology
of what makes people tick, andI've got a background as an
(03:14):
organisational psychologist, soone of the things I'm really
focused on is getting to theroot cause of what it is that
drives performance.
So, with younger people today, Ithink one of the things we need
what it is that drivesperformance.
So, with younger people today,I think one of the things we
need to recognise is that theywant to feel valued and they
want to feel appreciated.
So if we want them to give us,as an employer, a mindset of
(03:38):
discretionary effort and I'mgoing to do my best work when I
show up every day one of thethings that they will expect in
return is feeling valued,feeling appreciated and feeling
a sense of connection.
And if I can give you somepractical examples from the Lake
Macquarie area, which is animportant region in New South
(03:59):
Wales, there's a young personthat I know well who works in a
cafe.
She's at university at themoment and she will come home
from her seven to eight hourshift in the cafe and I'll ask
her.
I'll ask her you know, how wasyour day at work?
And she'll say it was fantastic.
And I get curious when I hearthat kind of response and I'll
(04:20):
ask what is it that makes thisworkplace fantastic for you?
And she'll say things such isit that makes this workplace
fantastic for you?
And she'll say things such asit's the vibe, or I just feel
like that everybody accepts me,or that you know, I really love
it when customers will tell methat I've done a really great
job and they'll engage in someconversation with me.
So I think one of the things torecognise is if, as an employer
(04:45):
, we can make an effort tocreate a great work environment,
make sure we get to know ouryoung people as people and make
sure they feel that real senseof belonging that's going to
really shift their mindset.
But there's another piecebeyond that, because that's just
the foundation that we need tolay.
The next piece is aroundaccountability, and I think for
(05:07):
a lot of leaders and managers,accountability can feel like it
has to be a difficultconversation but in fact, if we
do accountability well, it's notpunishment, it's actually one
of the most motivating things wecan do for people and, I think,
for young people.
If we can create a healthyenvironment that incorporates
(05:27):
accountability, it will actuallyshift their mindset.
And this is what it looks likevery practically.
As a leader, we need to makesure our young people know
what's expected of them.
So when they're working for us,we need to be really clear in
saying this is what's expectedand this is what it means to be
performing in your job.
So that's the firstconversation really clear in
saying this is what's expectedand this is what it means to be
(05:47):
performing in your job.
So that's the firstconversation.
The second part of theconversation is one of
instilling a sense ofself-belief.
So we need to go to our youngpeople who, remember, may not
have the confidence or theskills to do what we're asking
them to do, and actually say Ibelieve in you, you can do this
and I'm going to support you andI'll invest in developing you
and your training.
But you've got this and I'vegot a belief that you're going
(06:09):
to be great.
That's the second thing.
Psychologically, that's soimportant.
And then there's a reallyimportant third step, and that
third step is I'm watching you.
Now, I'm watching you doesn'tneed to be a negative thing.
However, many of the listenerswill have heard the expression
we manage what we measure.
So being really clear on whatit is that I expect of you.
(06:34):
I believe that you can do thisand when you do it right, I'm
going to catch you doing goodthings and I'm going to tell you
that you've done it right andthat's going to help.
And when you don't do it right,I'm going to bring that to your
attention as well and we'regoing to tell you that you've
done it right, and that's goingto help.
And when you don't do it right,I'm going to bring that to your
attention as well, and we'regoing to unpack why didn't it
quite work right and how can Isupport you and I think, leon,
(06:54):
with those two elements.
If you can get those rightwithin the culture of regional
businesses, young people willwalk over hot coals for you and
that's one of the hardest thingis retaining good quality talent
.
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (07:10):
And that's always been a challenge.
What are the most effectivestrategies you've seen for
engaging and retaining youngeremployees in these environments?
Trudy MacDonald (07:17):
Leon, I don't think we can shy away from the
fact that the economy is toughand the cost of living is high,
and young people are reallyfeeling the burden of that.
So when I talk about what itmeans to engage people and what
it means to retain people,there's a hierarchy of things
that we need to get right, andright at the foundation is the
(07:40):
concept that money does matter.
Now, sometimes money is a bitof a dirty word and, as an
employer, we might think youknow what?
If money is somebody's keydriver, they're not quite the
right person for us.
Well, that's fair enough.
However, if the money is notright, if the money is not fair,
if the money is not right forthat person to live a reasonable
(08:02):
life, then money will be thebiggest motivator.
So here's my recommendationwhen it comes to remunerational
money Pay your people fairly and, if you can afford it, pay them
just above average, and you canget data that's freely
available that will let you knowwhat people should be paid in
different industries, whetherthat be a cafe or a hairdresser
(08:25):
or a real estate agent.
And if you can let people knowthat you are going to be paying
them not only fairly, but alittle bit more than average,
they will perceive that they'repaid fairly.
And then we take money off thetable, and that's actually our
objective with money.
We don't want it to be the keydriver, we want to get it off
the table.
So let's assume that we've gotthat in place.
(08:46):
That's a really importantfoundation for retaining people.
But then the thing that'sactually going to retain people
and make a difference is anotherhierarchy of things, and one of
them I've already mentioned,which is this sense of
connection and belonging and, inthe young person's language,
the vibe.
The vibe feels good when I workhere.
You can also call thatorganisational culture.
(09:07):
Beyond that, we start to lookat things such as what's
referred to as psychologicalsafety, and what that refers to
is do I feel safe in thisworkplace, speaking up, having a
voice, being asked my opinion?
Do I feel safe making mistakesand know that I'm not going to
(09:29):
get yelled at or I'm not goingto be made to feel like I'm a
failure, but rather it's alearning opportunity.
So if we can create that kindof environment, what you'll find
is not only will engagement gothrough the roof because people
feel this sense of connectionand purpose, but you'll also
find that people will stay withyou.
(09:50):
Now, when we talk about youngpeople, I think it's worth
recognising it's not aone-size-fits-all.
So you may have young peoplewho have left school without any
tertiary qualifications andmaybe they're working in retail.
You may have young people whoare going through an
apprenticeship, or maybe they'reworking in retail.
You may have young people whoare going through an
apprenticeship, or maybe they'rein a trade.
You may have young people whoare in university and they're
(10:11):
working as a side gig, or eventhey've finished their degree
and they're now working in aprofessional environment.
So there's not a one size fitsall here.
However, the concepts that I'mtalking about here, I think,
relate to most.
There is another element,though, and I want to just
reintroduce money back into theequation.
For some roles, having someform of incentive scheme to
(10:35):
drive retention and thebehaviours and the outcomes that
you're looking for can also bereally, really effective, and an
example of that would be aretail environment or a real
estate environment.
With a lot of the young peoplethat I talk to, I'll hear from
them that if there is anincentive and it's not
discretionary and this is areally important point there
(10:56):
needs to be clear criteria.
What do I need to do to earnthat incentive that can be a
really important driver ofengagement and retention as well
.
Leon Goltsman (11:04):
Incentive that can be a really important driver
of engagement and retention aswell, and, from what I'm hearing
, if people follow those stepsand components, in the long term
it'll probably save them money,won't it?
Trudy MacDonald (11:18):
Oh, absolutely.
And when we start to talk aboutincentive schemes and talking
about paying people fairly, Ithink most leaders and managers
and business owners wouldrecognise how costly it is when
you do lose somebody.
Having to rehire, retrain itabsolutely does save you money.
And the other thing withincentive schemes, if they can
be strategically aligned to whatthe business outcomes are that
you're looking for so maybe it'sbetter customer service, maybe
(11:39):
it's increasing the value ofeach transaction then what
you'll find is you've got awin-win situation.
I think one of the mostimportant things to think about
when you're trying to boostproductivity is to recognise
that accountability is a reallyimportant part of the equation.
And, as mentioned earlier, it'simportant that you can be
really clear with people onwhat's expected of them and then
(12:02):
making sure that you'remeasuring that.
Now the measurement of thatneeds to be done in a way that's
psychologically safe, so youdon't want people to feel
punished if they're not doingtheir job correctly, but rather
it needs to be a coachingconversation.
It needs to be a high supportconversation.
One of the really interestingthings, I think, for leaders to
get their head around,particularly in regional areas,
(12:24):
is that over the last few years,we've become very empathetic
towards our employees, and whatI mean by that is employees come
first, their needs come first.
So we've been very empatheticto understanding that our young
people want flexibility.
Our young people may want towork from home.
Our young people have a desireto travel and subsequently maybe
(12:50):
not work normal work hours.
So there's a lot of give andthere's a lot of support, and in
order to attract people,particularly in regions, a lot
of employers have had to offer alot of benefits.
So this is what it's going tofeel like when you come.
If we have high levels ofempathy and support in our
(13:13):
organisation and that's notbalanced with accountability, we
risk creating a sense ofentitlement.
And this is where I've seen alot of leaders are really
struggling with young peoplethat you give them a little bit
and then that becomes anentitlement, and then they want
a little bit more, and then theywant a little bit more and
suddenly it becomes verylopsided and I'm seeing leaders
(13:34):
who don't necessarily feel thattheir business is performing,
but I'm having to give more andmore to my employees.
So the thing to get right here,and the balance we need to get
right, is how do I balance thatempathy and that great culture
and work environment withaccountability.
And if I can share anotherexample with you accountability
(13:57):
and if I can share anotherexample with you, working with
an organisation in the LakeMacquarie area a blue-collar
workforce and we were supportingthe organisation to improve
their accountability practicesand one of the most simple
things we did is, for eachperson's job, we made it very
clear what great performancelooks like and they knew that
every quarter they would have ameeting with their manager to
(14:20):
discuss how they wereprogressing against that.
And I remember one of thegentlemen came up to me after I
finished launching thisparticular initiative and he
said Trudy, I just wanted toshare with you that I am so
delighted that this has been putinto place.
And I said well, that's great,tell me what's going through
your mind.
And he said well, previously Iwould have catch-ups with my
(14:43):
manager and the conversation wasoften along the lines of you
just need to do better becauseJohnny's working harder than you
or Susie is able to producemore output than you.
You need to be more like them.
It was constantly comparing toanother person and he said you
know what?
It was so demotivating becausethere was always somebody better
(15:05):
than me.
He said what I really likeabout this program is it's just
about me.
It doesn't matter how I'mcomparing to anyone else.
I know what success looks likein this job.
I know if I can doesn't matterhow I'm comparing to anyone else
.
I know what success looks likein this job.
I know if I can deliver on that, I'm going to be rewarded.
And now I've got a benchmarkthat I can work towards.
Leon Goltsman (15:23):
And one of the benchmark is to inspire people
to become leaders.
Trudy, you often speak aboutthe importance of building
future ready leaders.
What core leadershipcapabilities should regional
businesses be nurturing in theiryounger professionals right now
?
Trudy MacDonald (15:38):
Our young people are our future leaders,
and I think we need to look atthem through that lens, and
every day that they're workingfor us is an opportunity to
build their capabilities.
If I look at what it takes tobe leading now, in 2025, and
start to look at what it's goingto mean to lead, moving forward
, there's a number of attributesthat we need to be building in
(16:00):
our younger people.
One is a sense of autonomy andbeing empowered, and if you look
at all the different ways thatyou can develop people there's
training programs, there'scourses that you can send them
off to do some further study Allof the research will tell us
the single best way to buildsomebody's development is to
(16:23):
increase their autonomy or toincrease their level of
responsibility, and I think moreand more we need younger people
to feel empowered, to be ableto think for themselves, to make
decisions, not coming to theirmanagers saying what do I do now
?
Or, even worse, waiting to betold what to do.
So that would be one attribute,and in order to do that,
(16:44):
increasing autonomy andresponsibility and holding
people accountable for that andcatching them doing good things
is a really important framework.
I think the second thing isrecognising that technology and
AI will continue to increase ata rapid pace and our younger
people we've got to remindourselves have grown up with
(17:06):
this.
It's second nature to them.
So, creating space and forumswithin your businesses for them
to lead initiatives or to bepart of project teams that are
possibly cross-generational,where they can contribute their
ideas around technology and howit can help your business.
I think that's an incredibleopportunity, because what it
(17:28):
does is it starts to buildskills around real-life problem
solving, is it starts to buildskills around real-life problem
solving.
It starts to tap into thisfeeling of being valued and
creating a real sense of purpose, and all of these things are
going to set people up to befuture ready as leaders.
Leon Goltsman (17:45):
And, trudy, you have touched on AI, but also,
right now, where we are.
We're facing the mostunpredictable times since World
War II.
Even large organisations thatused to have short, medium,
long-term plans, they're noteven looking at it anymore, like
that.
Everything is now a short-termplan and we know that change and
uncertainty are part of today'sbusiness landscape.
(18:07):
I mean, that's how things areright now and younger
professionals they're navigatingit in real time.
How can leaders support aresilient, adaptive mindset in
younger staff to help themthrive through this change?
Trudy MacDonald (18:22):
Leon, I think with younger people, there is a
huge amount of change, as weknow, in the workplace and as
leaders.
If we want to be supportingthem, to be more resilient,
there's a number of things thatwe can do, and I think this
comes back to understanding thepsychology of change.
If, as human beings, we feelthat change is being imposed on
us, generally we lose trust withthe individual who's imposing
(18:47):
that change, because they'remaking us feel uncertain,
insecure, less competent, and weresist change for that reason.
However, the good news is thatif we feel as though we're
somewhat in control of thechange that's happening, we have
a very different view of change.
Change is actually exciting.
Change is about progress.
(19:07):
It's about innovation.
So one of the simplest things wecan do with our young people in
our teams is bring them on thechange journey with us.
And there's a few simplestthings we can do with our young
people in our teams is bringthem on the change journey with
us.
And there's a few things thatwe can do there.
Number one make sure thatyou're really clear around why.
What's the vision?
Where are we going with thischange?
The second thing is helpingthem understand how it's going
(19:31):
to impact them and creating thespace to have those
conversations.
But I think, more importantlyand more excitingly, help them
understand that you don't haveall the answers, and how they
can be part of that changeprocess.
And I think, looking at AI asan example, there's an
incredible amount of change and,as you mentioned, leon, many
(19:53):
organisations are not engagingin long-term planning anymore.
It's quite short term If we canengage our younger people to
help us determine how the changeis going to be executed, and
that may be just creating forumsfor them to share ideas or
share perspectives.
Often you'll find thatresilience builds through that
(20:13):
process.
I like to think aboutresilience as being a muscle, so
if we don't use it, itatrophies.
But if we do use it so if we'vegot constant exposure to change
what happens is that resiliencemuscle gets strong and suddenly
we find that we can navigatethings quickly.
So that would be one thing Makesure that your younger people
(20:33):
are part of the change.
Don't do change to them.
Make them part of it.
The second thing is recognisingthe importance of support
networks, so creating forums totalk through the impact of
change, to talk through feelings, to talk through how we're
going, and that may be throughone-on-one check-ins or it may
be with their peer group.
(20:54):
That's another really importantelement to help people build
resilience.
Leon Goltsman (20:59):
And it's all really about trust and having
respect for the organisation.
I mean, you mentionedpreviously that strong culture
starts with aligned values andwith that, how can organisations
help younger employees connecttheir personal values with the
company's mission in not justany way in a meaningful way?
Trudy MacDonald (21:17):
So a company's values really describe the way
we do things around here and,subsequently, what's important
to us.
And I think it's so importantthat you can get younger people
to authentically connect withthe values of your organisation,
because if you can create thatconnection, what it does is it
creates a sense of purpose, itcreates a sense of belonging and
(21:41):
with that foundation, you'llget a whole lot of discretionary
effort from your younger people.
It's interesting a lot oforganisations have what I call
shadow values, so they may havetheir stated values, and most
organisations have prettysimilar ones around integrity
and teamwork and accountabilityand client focus and trust.
I'm sure you've all heard thosebefore.
(22:02):
However, the way that peoplebehave in organisations may not
always reflect those values, andthat's what's referred to as
shadow values is what's reallygoing on.
So one of the really importantthings, particularly for younger
people when they come into anorganisation, is, first of all,
to share the values of theorganisation, and you may refer
(22:23):
to them as values or you mayjust say this is the way we do
things around here, this is whatwe value, this is what we
respect.
What can be really important interms of creating that
connection for them personallyis to engage in a conversation
with them around their personalgoals.
Now, when I talk about personalgoals, there's two elements to
(22:45):
that.
There's their work-relatedaspiration and goals when do you
see yourself going in thefuture?
And then there's personal goals, and I think, for young people
particularly, most of them havesome pretty strong personal
goals and a lot of it mayrevolve around travel or getting
exposure to broaderopportunities or contributing to
society or the environment,doing something that's
(23:07):
purposeful and meaningful, andthat's a real shift with the
current younger generation.
If you can create some space tounpack that with them, to
understand what's important tothem, then you've got the
opportunity not only to draw theconnection between what's
important to them and the valuesof the organisation, so that
they can see the connection, butmore practically, you can
(23:31):
actually show how you cansupport that individual to meet
their personal or theirwork-related aspirations or
goals.
So an example might be if youasked a younger person where do
you see yourself in the futureand let's assume that maybe
they're engaging in some studywhile they're working they might
say you know what I really wantto be in a management or a
(23:52):
leadership role at some point inmy future.
That's where I see myself If youcould then share with them.
Well, one of the things that'sreally important to us in our
business is that everybody'scontinuing to learn and grow,
because we want to make surethat your experience here, for
however long it is, is onethat's fulfilling for you and is
(24:12):
setting you up.
How would you feel if, once weget you up to speed in your
current role and you'reperforming that, we start to put
a development plan in place foryou so that we can start to
build the capabilities to setyou up onto that leadership or
that management track thatyou're interested in?
I think that's a reallypowerful way to connect people
(24:33):
to values.
But, as you can see, and as youcan imagine if, as a young
person, if your employer wasmaking that kind of commitment
to you, you're going to beworking really hard for them.
Leon Goltsman (24:45):
Absolutely, I think a good sign of a
successful company isn't onethat just puts money in the
shareholder's pocket, but it'salso the one that's creating
future leaders and it makessociety better because of the
way that it treats its staffAbsolutely.
And that leads me to bringingthis up, trudy, that you've
always championed the role ofcontinuous development and
(25:07):
keeping teams future fit.
What practical steps canbusinesses in regional areas
take to promote a learningculture that young professionals
genuinely want to be a part of?
Trudy MacDonald (25:17):
Creating a learning culture is so critical,
and I think one of the thingsI've seen a lot of organizations
do in regions is a concept ofupward mentoring, and what it is
is it's really acknowledgingthe value and the expertise and
the mindsets that our youngerpeople bring into the
organisation and recognisingthat some of us that have been
(25:39):
around for a while have a wholelot to learn from the younger
generation.
So this is about reallyempowering our younger people
and if you can do that with realbusiness challenges, with real
business challenges.
So an example may be that wewant to improve our customer
experience and putting that outthere as a business problem and
(26:01):
getting some younger people toactually work on that initiative
with some other more tenuredpeople and engage in upward
mentoring.
So giving them permission toactually lead the initiative, to
put the ideas on the table, tothink differently.
I think that's one of the mostpractical things you can do to
create a learning culture.
It's less about doing furtherstudy.
(26:23):
It's more about real-timeproblems and actually bringing
your younger people into theconversation and empowering them
to actually have a voice andlistening to them.
Now, what that may mean is youmay try some things, they may
not work.
But it's that mindset that ifwe're going to innovate and if
we're going to learn, we willmake mistakes.
(26:44):
That's part of the process.
Let's make it safe to makemistakes and, in fact, let's
even celebrate the mistakes,because it means that we're
trying different things, whichthen leads to a really powerful
conversation around what have wejust learned?
And, with that learning, wheredo we go from here?
What are the next steps?
Leon Goltsman (27:01):
And there's no such thing as a mistake when you
actually take it as a learningexperience, because sometimes
it's because of that that'spaved the way to something much
bigger and better, and youwouldn't get there unless you
actually had that occur to you.
Absolutely, I mean, that's kindof been the story of my life.
Every time something happens,you kind of look at it, reflect
back.
I mean, one of the things aswell is keeping your journal.
(27:22):
Are there any ways that youmight recommend for people, not
just young people, but anyonewho wants to look back and see
where they can improve?
Trudy MacDonald (27:33):
So one of the things that's really powerful is
, as we start to move forward inthis environment is having a
mindset of continuous learning,and for many people, they may
not take the time to stop andreflect on what am I doing well
and what can I improve on.
So there's certainly sometechniques that individuals can
use.
One of those might bejournaling, and journaling is
(27:59):
really powerful, not only justto get things out of your mind,
but to start to think about whatam I doing well, where are some
areas that I could do better,and then, off the back of that,
what's one thing that I could doabout this?
But let me share with yourlisteners another really simple
framework that I find a lot ofindividuals will use effectively
(28:22):
, and it goes a little bit likethis Think back over the last
quarter or it might be the lastyear and think about all of the
things that you've been doing atwork, specifically how you've
been spending your time, and youcan ask yourself what's the
great work that I've been doing?
Now, the definition of greatwork is not great quality.
It's about work that's addingfuture value to the business.
(28:44):
So this might be bringing newideas to the table, or working
on strategic initiatives orworking on a new product for the
business, for example.
That would be great work.
You can then ask yourselfwhat's the good work that I've
been doing?
And you can think about thegood work as the operational
work that you're doing.
It's your day job.
(29:05):
It's transactional, it'skeeping the wheels turning
within the business.
That might be meeting withcustomers.
It might be making sure thatthe shop front's clean every day
.
It might be deliveringhigh-quality products, and I'd
like to encourage the listenersto go WOMBAT hunting Now.
Wombat is an acronym and itstands for Waste of Money,
(29:27):
bandwidth and Time WOMBATs.
Leon Goltsman (29:31):
I love that.
You'll have to give us a linkto that if you've got a page on
your website.
Trudy MacDonald (29:34):
Yes, so when you go WOMBAT hunting, I think
it's really interesting to saywhat are all the things that I'm
spending time on that are notadding value?
It's a waste of money, it's awaste of my bandwidth, it's a
waste of my time.
Now, the fact that you're doingthem doesn't mean that it's not
important for the business,however, for individuals
(29:56):
thinking about their own roleand how they should be spending
their time.
Often there's work that can beautomated.
Often there's work that couldbe delegated to a young person
in your team, for example.
Often there's work that'sunproductive because we're doing
rework or we're fixing errors.
So getting a list of thosethings is really powerful.
(30:17):
And then there's one morequestion to ask yourself which
is what's missing?
And I think this is reallypowerful.
And it's asking yourself if Iwere to be the best leader, the
best manager, the best teammember, doesn't matter what the
role is what's missing?
What am I not doing?
And often it's because eitherwe don't have time or maybe we
(30:38):
don't have the confidence to dothese things.
Leon, that analysis, so foursimple columns great, good, poor
and poor is the wombats, andmissing is a really powerful way
to identify what you're doingwell, but also where the gaps
are, and the logical outcome ofthat exercise is to identify
(31:01):
just one thing you can changeUsually how do I get rid of one
wombat and how do I replace thatwith something that's missing?
Leon Goltsman (31:10):
And that goes back to what you said earlier
you can't manage what you don'tmeasure.
Trudy MacDonald (31:14):
Correct.
Leon Goltsman (31:15):
I'm really enjoying this conversation with
you and I know that if we could,I'd probably be talking to you
all day.
I'd probably be talking to youall day, but I'm very, very
mindful of your time andWombat's.
But we were just talking aboutsport and the importance of
sports with some other guestsand your passion for sport, and
I'm seeing a common denominatorthat jumps out in successful
(31:38):
people that sport in some shapeor form is a very important part
of their life.
Now your passion for sport andmovement reflects in how you
lead and coach others.
What lessons from sport haveshaped your professional outlook
, and how can business leadersapply similar principles to
mentoring young talent?
Trudy MacDonald (32:07):
I think it's interesting because a lot of
successful leaders do also haveelements of their life that
incorporate sport orcontribution to society, where
they're also high achievers.
And Leon, I've spent all of mylife engaging in some kind of
sport and that's alwayscontinued to operate in parallel
to my business focus.
So in my early days I was aballerina and I did that for
about 20 years and then, justafter COVID, I switched over to
(32:30):
rowing and I did both sports fora while and then eventually
rowing's taken over.
So for those listeners whohaven't engaged in rowing before
, it's one of the most intenseexercises.
I always thought it was goingto be this wonderful, relaxing
sport.
I've never done anything sointense in my life.
But for me it requires trainingsix days a week and often twice
(32:51):
a day.
So I'm a competitive rower andI think what's really
interesting is if I look at theparallels between what's led to
my achievements from a sportingperspective and how that links
into both the business world buthow I coach leaders and young
people, there's a few reallyimportant lessons that I think
cross over both both sides.
One is the importance of havinggoals.
(33:15):
So if, if we don't have a goal,if we're not working towards
something, it's very quickly,very easy to lose motivation and
you find that without thatdirection, you don't have
purpose around what cansometimes be the hard yards.
So, whether that be getting upat 5am in the freezing cold in
the middle of winter and gettingout there and doing the
(33:36):
scheduled workout, or whether itbe showing up to work and
recognising that you know whatI've got to make 10 sales calls
this morning and I don't reallyfeel like it but it's the
discipline of knowing thatthere's a bigger picture here
that I'm working towards.
So that would be one thing, andI think in the business world,
making sure that everybody hasclear goals that they're working
(33:57):
towards in the context of theirjob, but also in the context of
their aspirations.
So where do I see myself beyondthis job?
And that may link to somepersonal goals as well.
The other thing that I think isso incredibly powerful that
crosses both worlds, isrecognising that high
performance habits actually justset you up with a rhythm and a
(34:20):
cadence that makes it easy to dowhat sometimes would otherwise
feel tough.
So high performance habits arethings such as I will tell
myself that if I'm training sixdays a week, I will commit to
myself that I will show up,regardless of how I feel I might
(34:41):
be feeling a bit sick, I mightbe feeling a bit achy and sore,
I might be flat.
I commit to show up, and whatthat means is I get up at five
in the morning and I get dressedand I go to the shed.
Now I give myself permissionthat once I start doing what I
need to do, after 10 minutes ifI'm still not feeling it, I give
myself permission to stop.
But you know how many timesthat's happened?
(35:09):
Never, yeah.
So something really powerfulhappens, that is, if you can
embed high performance habits,it actually just becomes easy to
do the hard work.
Now, this relates to theworkplace as well.
So one of the things that Ifind is really powerful is time
management and time blocking andbeing very disciplined around
how you use your time.
So if you were in a leadershiprole, for example, you may have
(35:35):
the habit that when you come towork every morning, the first
thing you do is walk around andactually just check in with
everybody in your immediate teamand check in on how they're
going and how they're feelingand if they need any help.
Now why would you do that?
If I go back to some of theearlier points in this
conversation, it's aboutcreating the vibe.
It's about making them feelvalued.
(35:56):
It's about saying I see you andI hear you as a person lifting
the culture and that'sincredibly valuable to get high
performance people.
So that might be a highperformance habit.
If I think about somebody who'sin a desk job but maybe they're
in a business development role,maybe for the first hour of
every Thursday they block outand say I'm going to call 10 of
(36:20):
my most valued customers and I'mnot going to put down that
phone until I've been able totalk to 10 of my most valued
customers and I'm not going toput down that phone until I've
been able to talk to 10 of mycustomers.
And that becomes a habit thatyou embed.
So that would be the otherthing that I think translates
very well over from sports.
So two things number one cleargoals, so we know why we're
doing what we do.
And secondly, locking in thediscipline around high
(36:41):
performance habits, which isbasically another way of
thinking about this, is it's therecipe for success.
I know if I follow step A, b, cand D, the result will just
happen, and that applies equallyto both sport as well as the
workplace.
Leon Goltsman (36:55):
I was also thinking teamwork, and when
you're especially when you'rerowing, you've got a team, and
together everyone achieves more.
So when you've got every singleyou're rowing, you've got a
team, and together everyoneachieves more.
So when you've got every singleperson working and doing their
role, as you mentioned, the boat, the vessel is going to go
faster.
You're going to end up winningand everyone wins.
Trudy MacDonald (37:15):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (37:17):
Except the people who came second and third.
Trudy MacDonald (37:20):
And that always happens.
That's a reality.
We can't always win every time,leon, I think it's a really
important point that teamwork inthe sporting world equally
translates to the workplace, andI do a lot of work with teams
to do what I call a reset,because often I find people
become very self-interested andthey're very focused on me and
(37:45):
how I feel and my job and withthat, they'll tend to blame
others when things go wrong.
Often doing a reset can rebuildthe sense of team that actually
we're in this together, wherewe're all equal.
We've just got differentresponsibilities and the way
that we actually collaborate andcommunicate and our ways of
working are actually going toset us up to get to the ultimate
(38:08):
goal that we're looking for andthen helping people understand
what's in it for me through thatjourney as well.
Leon Goltsman (38:13):
And, trudy, I can see why you're a winner in
every sense of the word.
If there is one key takeawayand one thing that any person,
whether they're a young personstarting off or a seasoned
professional business owner, ora team of business owners, what
is that one thing that you'dlike them to take away from
today?
Trudy MacDonald (38:34):
I think the one key message that's relevant
right now for everybody is thatchange will continue to
accelerate, and for some of us,we get very comfortable doing
what we've always done.
However, if we don't move atleast with the pace of change,
(38:56):
we risk falling back so far thatwe actually can become
redundant in a way, and what Imean by that is redundant from a
work context, meaning that wedon't have the skills or the
capabilities or the mindset tocontinue to thrive and even in
the sense of our own life, ifwe're not keeping up with
(39:17):
society and the way that weengage, the way that we
contribute, how we can besupporting each other, there's
risk that we create this divide,and that can lead to people
personally experiencing stress,experiencing burnout or feeling
directionless in life.
So one of the things I wouldencourage everybody to do,
(39:40):
regardless of whether you're ayoung person in the workplace or
whether you're an establishedleader, is to be constantly
asking yourself what's the nextlittle risk that I can take?
And it can feel like a littlerisk because it's leaning into
the unknown and it's leaninginto change, but that's how we
improve and inevitably we willmake mistakes.
(40:00):
However, if we perceive thosemistakes as learning
opportunities, and that's therichness of life, then I find
that it's an opportunity to havea very rich life.
It's an opportunity to engagemore meaningfully with others,
to contribute to society morebroadly and get a real sense of
fulfillment in that process.
Leon Goltsman (40:22):
Brilliant advice, a real sense of fulfillment in
that process.
Brilliant advice Now for anyonewho wants to contact you.
What's the best way for peopleto reach out?
Trudy MacDonald (40:30):
The best way to reach out.
If anybody wants to contact meis either via my website, so
that's talentcodehrcomau.
I do a lot of speakingengagements.
I do a lot of coaching,leadership development programs
and just supporting leaders totake their businesses to the
next level.
Or they can reach out to me onLinkedIn, and that's Trudy with
(40:52):
a Y MacDonald M-A-C.
Or I've got an Instagramaccount as well, which is Trudy
MacDonald Leadership.
I post a whole lot of reallypractical tips up there, so feel
free to follow me as well.
Leon Goltsman (41:04):
Oh, fantastic.
Well, Trudy, what I will do forall the listeners is I'm going
to put that on the show notesand I'm not even going to say
goodbye to you.
I'm going to say see you soon,because I know we'll be seeing a
lot more of you and I know thatLake Macquarie and other
regional parts of Australia notjust New South Wales they need
you.
This isn't an option.
All the uncertainties and allthe talent that's out there.
(41:27):
We can do better, and I knowthat you are one of those people
that's going to bring out thebest in everyone.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
I really enjoyed this and Ilook forward to catching up with
you again soon.
Trudy MacDonald (41:38):
Thank you, leon , it's been a real pleasure.
Leon Goltsman (41:42):
What an insightful conversation with
Trudy McDonald, an absolutepowerhouse in leadership and
organisational psychology, fromunderstanding the mindset behind
high performance to buildingcultures of accountability and
trust and recognising the vitalrole of young employees,
especially in our fastestgrowing regional areas.
There's so much more to reflecton from today's episode.
(42:05):
If you'd like to connect withtrudy or learn more, visit
talentcodehrcomau.
Find her on linkedin undertrudy mcdonald and that's mac m
a c, or follow the leadershipinsights on instagram at trudy
MacDonald Leadership.
Next week, we shift gears andwelcome Samuel Kulhachi from DNR
(42:28):
, a trusted name in energy andair conditioning solutions.
Based in Morissette, dnr isknown for delivering smart,
sustainable systems that aretailored to Australian
conditions.
Samuel will walk us through howsolar and electricity actually
work, why location matters andhow understanding your setup
(42:48):
could save you money and bekinder to the environment.
Whether you're already usingsolar or just starting to
explore it, this episode will befull of practical insights
you'll want to know about and,before we wrap up, I'd love your
feedback.
What did you enjoy?
What could we do better?
Email me directly at leon atecohq.
(43:12):
com.
au, because this podcast is asmuch about your voice as it is
about the voices we bring on.
And, finally, if you foundvalue in today's episode, please
follow Engaging Conversationsand share it with your network.
Together let's grow a communityof forward thinking Australians
.
Learn, lead and make a realdifference.
I'm Leon Goltsman, and untilnext time, stay engaged, stay
(43:37):
connected and let's keepbuilding the kind of community
we all want to be a part oftogether.
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