June 30, 2025 • 26 mins
When you meet David Fox, you might first notice the calm strength of a lifelong martial artist. What you might not see right away is the courage it takes to live each day with Parkinson’s disease — a condition he’s faced for nearly 15 years. Once a fierce competitor on the karate mat, David’s battles today are far more profound. This isn’t about trophies anymore — it’s about navigating life with dignity, confronting stigma, and offering hope to others walking a similar path.
David's story begins not with a doctor's diagnosis, but with a chance observation from a chiropractor friend during Bikram yoga teacher training in Las Vegas. "He saw me tremoring," David recalls, "and said 'I think they're Parkinsonian tremors.'" That night, David researched the condition and recognised every symptom in himself – the micrographia, slurred speech, and tremors that had been present for five years without proper identification. This delayed diagnosis represents a systemic failure that David believes needs urgent attention.
The conversation reveals the profound stigma faced by those with Parkinson's. From being denied entry to venues because security assumes he's drunk, to having his bag searched by suspicious store security who profiled him based on his symptoms – these everyday indignities compound the physical challenges of the disease. Yet through it all, David maintains not just dignity but extraordinary capability. He continues teaching karate students in his backyard, gradually rebuilding strength after a life-threatening brain hemorrhage. "The main problem for people with Parkinson's," he observes, "is they don't do enough to keep themselves active."
Perhaps most striking is David's call for greater awareness about Parkinson's diversity. He notes that only 35% of patients experience tremors, while the condition takes approximately five years to diagnose. His message to policymakers is direct: "I want them to throw as much money on Parkinson's as they did on COVID." His book, "The Way of the Pigeon," offers philosophical lessons drawn from observing birds navigate challenges – flying away from danger without resentment and surviving in diverse environments without resorting to aggressive tools.
Listen to this remarkable conversation and discover how a martial artist's discipline can transform the experience of living with a progressive condition. If you've been touched by Parkinson's or seek inspiration from those who refuse to surrender to circumstance, this episode offers rare insight into resilience that transcends physical limitation.
Thank you for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leon Goltsman (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of
Engaging Conversations.
I'm your host, Leon Goltsman,and each week I sit down with
people who are shaping strongercommunities through courage,
connection and the kind ofeveryday resilience that doesn't
always make headlines butabsolutely deserve to.
And today's episode is proudlybrought to Niaz Cannoth and the
(00:22):
team at Invest Intelligencevisionary supporters of progress
, purpose and possibility.
And today I'm joined by someonewho I've known for decades, not
just as a martial artist, butas a competitor, a teammate, a
mentor and, above all, a friend.
David Fox is many things Aformer karate champion who
(00:45):
represented Australia at theMaccabea Games, a dedicated
teacher, a creative soul andsomeone who has faced
Parkinson's disease with morestrength and dignity than most
people realise is even possible.
Diagnosed nearly 15 years ago,david's story is one of grit,
humour, persistence and apainful honesty from life
(01:07):
threatening medical emergenciesto public encounters with stigma
, to rebuilding strength, stepby step, in his own backyard,
david opens up about what itreally means to live with
Parkinson's in Australia today.
But this isn't a story ofsurvival.
It's a call for awareness, forearlier diagnosis, better
(01:27):
support systems and greaterrecognition from our leaders and
organisations like Parkinson'sNew South Wales, because behind
every diagnosis is a real humanstory and unless you've lived it
, you've probably never heard itlike this.
This episode is for anyonenavigating Parkinson's or
walking alongside someone who is.
(01:48):
It's also for policy makers,advocates and decision makers,
who need to hear what's reallyhappening at ground level.
So, without further ado, let'sget into it.
David Fox (02:01):
Hi, I'm David Fox.
Well, I'd had symptoms forabout five years already before
I was diagnosed, but because Icouldn't see the tremors at that
stage, the first thing Inoticed was that my arm wasn't
swinging when I was walking.
Then the tremors started andthen I went to become a Bikram
yoga teacher doing hot yoga inthe Hilton in Las Vegas, and I
(02:27):
had a friend who was achiropractor and he saw me
tremoring.
He goes I think they'reParkinsonian tremors and I
didn't know anything about it atall.
So that night I went and lookedit up and every single symptom
of Parkinson's I had themicrographia, the slurred speech
, the tremors, and as I readthem and ticked them all off, at
(02:51):
first I felt like jumping off abridge because it seemed so
overwhelming and so engrossing.
But that was 2010, so I have adifferent perspective on it now.
Leon Goltsman (03:02):
So are you telling me that you've never
gone to the doctors before andno one's diagnosed?
David Fox (03:08):
it took somebody random to actually point that
out yeah, well, my friend was achiropractor and he was always
behind me in class in in uh, lasvegas, there the bickering
teacher training, and he noticedof course I was shaking a lot
more, doing two hot Bikram yogaclasses every day.
And he noticed it and he said,dave, I think it's Parkinson's.
(03:29):
And I was really angry at himat first because I thought, if
he's wrong, look at the traumahe's put through.
But he was right.
Leon Goltsman (03:37):
Yeah, well, it's clear that a condition like
Parkinson's isn't just aboutphysical health, though it often
comes with assumptions, pity orpeople not knowing how to
respond.
Dave, can you share yourexperience with the stigma
around Parkinson's and how itaffected the way people treat
you or perceive you?
David Fox (03:55):
Well, a good example is when I used to go to the
airport and I tried to do itwithout getting a separate
wheelchair because I didn't wantto look like I was crippled.
But every time I stood in aline they'd bring out the
sniffer dogs because I wastremoring.
So now I get the wheelchair inthe airport.
(04:18):
Other things too, like oftenyou look like you're drunk
because of the way you'rewalking, and when I went to Bud
Yew Boy Soccer Club for thefirst time the guy on the door
wouldn't let me in.
He's going, you're clearlydrunk.
I said I'm not drunk, I've gotParkinson's disease, and he
wouldn't believe me.
Then the manager came out and Iexplained I had Parkinson's
(04:40):
disease and he said oh, let himin.
I said I'll take a breathalyzeror anything, I don't mind.
Leon Goltsman (04:49):
I haven't been drinking at all yet.
Yeah, and I remember you weretelling me a story that time
when the security grabbed you,that time when they took your
bag off you and emptied out allthe contents after the yoga
lessons.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about that as well?
David Fox (05:01):
Well, I had the backpack on my shoulders and I
just stuck my head in the doorand and looked at the prices of
vodka, because I wanted a bottleof vodka and they were no good.
So I walked out and then theguy comes running out of the
store going you've stolensomething.
I said I didn't touch anything,you can look on the video
(05:22):
cameras.
I just stuck my head in lookingfor a price.
He goes take your bag off.
It had all my wet yoga gear init and stuff like my Bikram
costume, which was, anyway.
They went through absolutelyeverything all my pills.
What are these pills?
I said look, I haven't takenanything from this shop.
He said well, then you've gotnothing to worry about.
(05:45):
But they still kept me there inBondi Junction where I could
have been seen by who knows what.
Leon Goltsman (05:53):
Do you think that's because perhaps the
Parkinson's symptoms may havealluded them to?
Something is wrong?
David Fox (06:01):
I don't know what the police were thinking.
Leon Goltsman (06:03):
So you're someone who never stops.
I mean, I've known you for howlong now, Dave?
It's been a long time.
David Fox (06:08):
Since you were 12.
How old are you?
Leon Goltsman (06:10):
Okay, so let's just say since I was 12.
So we've known each other for avery long time, almost 40 years
.
That's a long time it is, and Ihaven't changed a bit.
David Fox (06:22):
They used to write on the back of his hand when he
used to play up in class so thatthey knew that he was a
troublemaker.
Leon Goltsman (06:30):
Yeah well, some things still never change, do
they?
David Fox (06:33):
No, I suppose not.
Leon Goltsman (06:35):
Well, when you're on a good thing, stick to it.
I say so, dave, from someonewho never stops, from martial
arts and dancing to calligraphyand craftsmanship.
You've always found ways tostay active and engaged and you
are an inspiration.
You were my karate instructor,but also a great friend and
somebody that we've competed notonly against each other but
(06:58):
with each other.
We've represented New SouthWales.
We've represented even on anational level.
David Fox (07:04):
Correct New.
Leon Goltsman (07:05):
South Wales, we've represented, even on a
national level Correct, and westill have the videos to prove
it.
And some of those competitionswe actually did pretty well,
didn't we?
David Fox (07:12):
Yeah, most of my videos have rotted away.
They're no good.
You can't use them anymore.
Yeah well, just as well.
We've still kept them digitalversions of it.
We got some digital ones out ofthem before they went kaput.
Leon Goltsman (07:26):
Well, I'm glad we've done that, but I've always
admired you for that, dave, andI just wanted to ask you what
drives you to keep learning andmoving, and how important is
that mindset for others livingwith a progressive condition?
David Fox (07:39):
Well, I had another complication on top of that.
I had a subarachnoid hemorrhage, which is when an embolism in
your brain expands.
It makes a little bubble andthen it pops.
And I was just sitting at homeand all of a sudden I had a
terrific pain in the back of myhead and then I couldn't get out
(08:02):
of the bed.
So I called the ambulance, Iwet the bed and then they took
me to Wyong Hospital up here andthey put me in the waiting room
.
The ambulance drivers and Ijust couldn't take the pain.
It's one of those painful things.
It's supposed to be morepainful than childbirth.
(08:22):
It's supposed to be morepainful than childbirth.
And I laid down on the floor inthe waiting room of Wyong
Hospital and they quickly cameout and grabbed me and said you
can't lie down here.
I said you want to bet?
And then I just collapsed againonto the floor and then they
realised I had a brainhaemorrhage and they choppered
(08:46):
me to Royal North Shore Hospitalwhere the surgeons had to do
some urgent surgery, and it waspretty nightmarish.
Really, going to the surgicalneurology room is like being
abducted by aliens.
It's all screens and monitorsand people lying there with
(09:09):
tubes in and out of them.
Leon Goltsman (09:11):
I can just imagine how frightening that
would have been, and a lot ofpeople didn't know what was
happening to you at the time.
What were you thinking?
David Fox (09:21):
Well, it was in the middle of COVID.
Everyone was wearing masksstill, so it was 2022.
Leon Goltsman (09:28):
Yeah, so it's a miracle that you're here, Dave.
David Fox (09:33):
Yeah, I came very close.
I had some pretty goodhallucinations about the end of
the world.
Leon Goltsman (09:39):
Sometimes things happen in life when we least
expect them.
Certainly you weren't expecting20, 30 years ago to be with
Parkinson's and then be in asituation during COVID Well, let
alone COVID itself who wouldhave thought something like
that's going to come around andaffect us the way that it has?
And then, on top of that,you've had to deal with this
(10:01):
situation.
David Fox (10:03):
Yeah, well, a large percentage of people who have
what I have just drop dead onthe spot and then, out of the
ones that make it to hospital, alot die in the hospital.
So I've come out of it prettyunscathed.
My left leg is a bit weak, butit's only if I want to do
something important with it thatit matters.
Leon Goltsman (10:29):
Well, on the way here, just before we started our
conversation, you've had a fewprivate students asking me to
come and join in and train.
I mean, look, I would haveloved to, and and and I will in.
If I promise you I'll come backand we'll do some cut and do
some training, but just seeingyou training and teaching the
people, your students, that'spretty remarkable, dave, I've
got to say.
That's pretty inspiring.
David Fox (10:48):
Yeah well, they were at another place up here in the
Central Coast and they justweren't being taught properly.
So one of my carers had anotherwoman who was one of her carers
and she'd actually taken her tothe karate classes give her a
(11:08):
lift there and watch the karateclass and she said, mate, you'd
do much better if you just wentto Dave and I didn't have any
students at that stage, and sowe started training in my
backyard and now there are fourpeople interested in it.
Leon Goltsman (11:23):
Yeah, I'm just thinking how incredible it is.
We hear people whinging andcomplaining and kind of say,
well, I can't do this or I'm notwell, I'm not feeling well,
I've got Parkinson's.
They make excuses.
I can't remember the last timeyou've ever made an excuse for
anything, let alone this.
So, dave, for other people whoare allowing their condition to
(11:48):
cripple them, what would youtell them?
David Fox (11:52):
Yeah, well, I've always kept training.
It started when I was in thehospital.
I couldn't even walk around theward of the hospital and when I
got out I couldn't walk fromaround the corner where my
friend lives, where I wasstaying, to my house here.
But gradually started walkingmore, got the dog, started
(12:14):
walking the dog every day.
And that's how it starts.
It starts with a stroller whereyou have to walk with a
stroller, then you can get bywith a stick.
Once you've built yourselfuproller, then you can get by
with a stick.
Once you've built yourself up,then you can walk normally.
And then sometimes I even do alittle bit of running, although
it's not really running.
You could walk faster than whatI run, but uh, just to stretch
(12:34):
the muscles out a little bit, uh, and that's.
And then you start doing somelight weights and they get
heavier and you get stronger andyou can build your strength
back up.
The main problem for peoplewith Parkinson's, in my view, is
they don't do enough to keepthemselves active.
On Friday mornings I go toParkinson's PD Warriors.
(12:58):
Pd is obviously Parkinson'sdisease and these are very
similar to karate kata and youdo them and that helps
strengthen you up as well.
Leon Goltsman (13:13):
I've watched you do karate.
You know in your prime and morerecently, and I've got to say
some of the techniques you dotoday.
I mean you've always beenexceptional level and you've put
in the effort.
You're not natural.
I mean both of us.
We're not natural karate peopleare we.
David Fox (13:31):
There are people who are far more natural than I was.
Leon Goltsman (13:34):
yes, Well, I think the key, you know, to us
and we've done pretty good overthe years in terms of winning
competitions and collectingperpetual trophies over the
years, I suppose but I thinkwhat got us there is that we
were always persistent.
We trained harder than most,didn't we?
David Fox (13:51):
Yeah, people would come and say let's do some
sparring and then watch you andme warm up and go.
I don't think I want to.
They'd say, let's do a cutter,and then they'd pike out.
Leon Goltsman (14:02):
When you speak to many elite athletes even
Michael Phelps, I mean he's anasthmatic and some of those
conditions, the things thatactually stop people from
training is the reason why theytrain in the first place.
I mean, for me it's beenarthritis and I've got to say
that, rather than letting itcripple me, I've always used it
(14:23):
to fuel me, to make me trainharder, to make me train better,
to make me train with moremindfulness.
So when I watch you do karatetraining even now, I mean I'd
love to get a video of you andactually post it one of these
days.
But when people see it, it'sreally hard to believe that
you've actually got thiscondition, because a lot of your
techniques is probably betterand stronger than most people
(14:46):
without it.
David Fox (14:47):
Well, my students.
They became my students.
They watched me punch Bob thebody opponent bag and they went.
Then you can see the difference.
So the power is the last thingto go.
Leon Goltsman (14:59):
I've got to say that if somebody mistaken you
for a handicap person walkingdown the street, I think they'd
be in for a bit of a shock ifyou decided that you were going
to defend yourself.
David Fox (15:13):
I think so.
Leon Goltsman (15:14):
Yeah.
So the lesson is if you seesomebody walking very slowly
with a walking stick, don'tassume anything.
David Fox (15:21):
Correct.
Leon Goltsman (15:23):
I do like your confidence, dave, but still not
everybody is like us in thatsense, and certainly not
everybody's like you, because alot of people do rely on our
system, on a system that that'smeant to take care of them.
They've got to deal withcomplex mazes of health systems,
funding bodies and bureaucratichurdles.
(15:45):
Now, from your perspective,where is the system letting
people down with Parkinson's,and what do you think needs to
change?
David Fox (15:54):
Well, I wouldn't categorise it as the system
letting them down, but we wouldlike a cure, like I've had it
almost 20 years and they saidmaybe in 20 years we'll have a
cure, and still no closer.
So if they treated it like theway they treated COVID, they'd
have it solved straight away.
But no one will throw enoughmoney at it.
Leon Goltsman (16:14):
Well, I only found out recently while
speaking to Parkinson's NewSouth Wales that Parkinson's is
the biggest bed hogger.
In fact, it hogs the beds inhospitals.
It takes approximately fiveyears to diagnose it.
So if they diagnosed it earlier, for instance, you'd be able to
(16:34):
have more available hospitalbeds, and yet it's not even on
the government's radar.
I've only realized recentlythat about 35% of people who
have Parkinson's they don't haveany tremors.
Only 35% of people withParkinson's actually have
tremors.
So people assume that if youdon't tremor, you don't have
(16:55):
Parkinson's.
That perhaps is probably one ofthe reasons why so many people
are not being diagnosed.
What do you think about that?
David Fox (17:04):
Yeah, they could work out a method for early
diagnosis.
That would help a fair bit.
But what can you do Until theyhave a cure for it?
Up until recently, they didn'tknow exactly what was causing it
.
It's not like you can just cutopen someone's brain and have a
look.
Leon Goltsman (17:20):
Yeah, but the thing is they actually do have
technology and they actually dohave ways of detecting
Parkinson's earlier.
The right medication could givepeople at least some sort of
dignity and give their livesback.
David Fox (17:35):
Some respite from the symptoms?
Leon Goltsman (17:37):
yes, and yet, if they're not diagnosing it, then
I suppose we have a problem,don't we?
David Fox (17:42):
And yet if they're not diagnosing it, then I
suppose we have a problem, don'twe?
Well, until you can prevent theprogression, there's not much
they can do.
Anyway, there's fairly goodmeds to keep you.
You know, I remember when I wasa child like four or five years
old in the block of units wherewe used to live, there was a
man with Parkinson's and he wasreally shaky.
(18:03):
He would walk out and he wasone big tremor, which is
probably what most people wouldbe like without any medication,
like they didn't have it inthose days, and that was a
nightmare.
My mother had an auntie who wasalso bedridden from Parkinson's
and used to just sit there intremor all day.
So we're lucky we've got themeds now, but we really need
(18:27):
something that will stop theprogression and more attention
to it, I suppose.
Leon Goltsman (18:32):
So if the government don't even have it on
their radar, that's a problem.
David Fox (18:36):
Yeah well, michael J Fox does a good job of getting
it out there.
He's been a great spokesman.
Leon Goltsman (18:44):
We talked about your recent major health scare
yeah, also the near-deathexperience that could have
changed everything.
What happened and how did thatmoment reshape you, how you kind
of now see your journey withParkinson's and life in general.
Now see your journey withParkinson's and life in general.
David Fox (19:02):
Well, I'm not as physically adept at anything now
, since I had the brainhemorrhage, but combined with
Parkinson's, well, that makes ittwice as hard, doesn't it?
Leon Goltsman (19:15):
It certainly hasn't stopped you from living
your life.
I mean you still drive, youstill go out your life.
I mean you still drive, youstill go out, you catch up with
friends, your family, you train,you've got a dog, you've got
friends, you've gotrelationships.
You're living a prettyfulfilling life.
(19:35):
You write.
You've written a book recently.
Haven't you Tell us a bit aboutyour book?
David Fox (19:38):
The book is called the Way of the Pigeon.
I first thought of the concepta little after I was diagnosed
with Parkinson's.
But I was in a car park inBondi Junction and I was waiting
for someone to pull out andthis guy came in in a WRX and
(20:03):
stood there waiting and when Itook the parking spot he started
yelling and screaming and allthat stuff.
So I started recording him andhe got out of the car and he was
threatening and I called thepolice and then, after it was
all settled, I went and sat inmy usual park and I was just
watching the pigeons and Irealised if I'd have just given
(20:26):
him the parking spot, if I'dhave just gotten out of the way,
it would have been a lot saferbecause he was ready to get
violent.
So I started watching pigeonsand I realised I made up these
10 rules about the pigeons.
Leon Goltsman (20:44):
A lot of people don't realize this, but pigeons
are actually a very athleticanimal, well bird, they can fly
from.
You know different countries,literally, and they're fit and
they're survivors, but alsothey're very nurturing, they're
loving, they know their home,they know their place.
So the pigeon is not just thebird that eats crumbs that
(21:05):
people leave behind.
Just in one sentence, dave,what can you tell me makes the
pigeon such an inspirationalbird?
David Fox (21:12):
Well, it was more okay.
The pigeon is in every country,in every climate, in great
numbers without having any jawsor teeth or jagged claws.
They basically fly away whenthere's any danger and they
don't have any recriminationsabout it.
And the pigeon has survived inall different climates and all
(21:38):
different landscapes.
And in the cities and in thecountry they just move out the
way.
When the dog runs into the park, they just fly away.
Leon Goltsman (21:47):
Well, the pigeon is a very mystical bird and I'm
sure we can talk a lot aboutpigeons, but the fact that
you've actually written a book,the Way of the Pigeon and I've
read it, and it is a veryinspiring book and it's not a
very big read you could probablyread it in one hour.
So, dave, as always, I do enjoycatching up with you and I'm
(22:09):
sure a lot of people will.
Once they meet you, they'llrealize how inspiring you are as
a person, but also as a friend.
And if I could, just someobservation as well, is that a
lot of people, from carers topoliticians, I still don't think
they fully get what Parkinson'sis or what it really is like to
(22:29):
live with it from day to day.
If you had the year of, say,parkinson's, new South Wales,
the health minister or even theprime minister, what is the one
message you want them to hearloud and clear?
David Fox (22:43):
I want them to throw as much money on Parkinson's as
they did on COVID.
Leon Goltsman (22:47):
To throw as much money on Parkinson's as they did
on COVID.
Wouldn't that be incredible?
David Fox (22:53):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (22:54):
Yeah Well, I'm sure a lot of people will agree
with you on that, dave, thankyou very much.
Always a pleasure to catch up,always a pleasure to see you.
And look, can I just ask youone more question before we go?
If people wanted to get incontact with you just to reach
out, to learn more about you andpossibly even about some karate
(23:15):
training or other things, whatis the best way for them to
reach you?
David Fox (23:19):
The best way if someone wants to contact me is
probably via email at the moment, davidneilfox N-E-I-L at
gmailcom.
Leon Goltsman (23:30):
That's davidneilfox at gmailcom.
Correct, perfect, dave.
Thank you very much.
Lovely to have you on the show.
David Fox (23:40):
Thanks, leon, I appreciate it.
Leon Goltsman (23:42):
And there you have it, folks.
What an extraordinary anddeeply moving conversation with
David Fox, an individual whosestrength, humor and humility
remind us what it truly means tolive with purpose.
From his ears as a karatechampion to his honest
reflections.
Humour and humility remind uswhat it truly means to live with
(24:03):
purpose, From his ears as akarate champion to his honest
reflections from navigatingParkinson's to our health system
.
David's story is one ofpersistence, adaptability and
the quiet power of never givingup.
He's lived through stigma,medical misdiagnosis and even a
life-threatening brainhemorrhage, and yet he continues
to teach, inspire and show upfor others.
(24:23):
His message today is one thatwe all need to hear that behind
every condition, every label,there's a human being, and they
deserve dignity, attention andaction.
If you'd like to connect withDavid, you can reach him
directly at DavidNeilFox atgmailcom.
That's Neil with an E-I.
(24:46):
Looking ahead, we're excited tokeep bringing you stories from
people who are changing lives,not just in big, flashy ways,
but in practical, personal andpowerful ones From
rehabilitation specialists tohappiness facilitators, to those
helping others re-enter theworkforce, to innovators behind
groundbreaking globaltechnologies.
(25:07):
Engaging conversations is wherereal people, real solutions and
real value come together.
There'll be insight,inspiration and more than a few
surprises along the way, and Iwant to hear from you what
resonated with you today, whatwould you like us to explore in
future episodes?
Email me anytime atleongoltzman at ecohqcomau,
(25:32):
because this podcast is built onthe voices we share together,
and if you found value in thisepisode, please follow Engaging
Conversations, leave a reviewand share it with someone who
needs to hear it.
Let's grow a community thatlistens, learns and leads with
heart.
I'm Leon Goltsman.
Until next time, stay engaged,stay connected and let's keep
(25:56):
building the kind of communitythat we all want to be a part of
together.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of
Engaging Conversations.
I'm your host, Leon Goltsman,and each week I sit down with
people who are shaping strongercommunities through courage,
connection and the kind ofeveryday resilience that doesn't
always make headlines butabsolutely deserve to.
And today's episode is proudlybrought to Niaz Cannoth and the
(00:22):
team at Invest Intelligencevisionary supporters of progress
, purpose and possibility.
And today I'm joined by someonewho I've known for decades, not
just as a martial artist, butas a competitor, a teammate, a
mentor and, above all, a friend.
David Fox is many things Aformer karate champion who
(00:45):
represented Australia at theMaccabea Games, a dedicated
teacher, a creative soul andsomeone who has faced
Parkinson's disease with morestrength and dignity than most
people realise is even possible.
Diagnosed nearly 15 years ago,david's story is one of grit,
humour, persistence and apainful honesty from life
(01:07):
threatening medical emergenciesto public encounters with stigma
, to rebuilding strength, stepby step, in his own backyard,
david opens up about what itreally means to live with
Parkinson's in Australia today.
But this isn't a story ofsurvival.
It's a call for awareness, forearlier diagnosis, better
(01:27):
support systems and greaterrecognition from our leaders and
organisations like Parkinson'sNew South Wales, because behind
every diagnosis is a real humanstory and unless you've lived it
, you've probably never heard itlike this.
This episode is for anyonenavigating Parkinson's or
walking alongside someone who is.
(01:48):
It's also for policy makers,advocates and decision makers,
who need to hear what's reallyhappening at ground level.
So, without further ado, let'sget into it.
David Fox (02:01):
Hi, I'm David Fox.
Well, I'd had symptoms forabout five years already before
I was diagnosed, but because Icouldn't see the tremors at that
stage, the first thing Inoticed was that my arm wasn't
swinging when I was walking.
Then the tremors started andthen I went to become a Bikram
yoga teacher doing hot yoga inthe Hilton in Las Vegas, and I
(02:27):
had a friend who was achiropractor and he saw me
tremoring.
He goes I think they'reParkinsonian tremors and I
didn't know anything about it atall.
So that night I went and lookedit up and every single symptom
of Parkinson's I had themicrographia, the slurred speech
, the tremors, and as I readthem and ticked them all off, at
(02:51):
first I felt like jumping off abridge because it seemed so
overwhelming and so engrossing.
But that was 2010, so I have adifferent perspective on it now.
Leon Goltsman (03:02):
So are you telling me that you've never
gone to the doctors before andno one's diagnosed?
David Fox (03:08):
it took somebody random to actually point that
out yeah, well, my friend was achiropractor and he was always
behind me in class in in uh, lasvegas, there the bickering
teacher training, and he noticedof course I was shaking a lot
more, doing two hot Bikram yogaclasses every day.
And he noticed it and he said,dave, I think it's Parkinson's.
(03:29):
And I was really angry at himat first because I thought, if
he's wrong, look at the traumahe's put through.
But he was right.
Leon Goltsman (03:37):
Yeah, well, it's clear that a condition like
Parkinson's isn't just aboutphysical health, though it often
comes with assumptions, pity orpeople not knowing how to
respond.
Dave, can you share yourexperience with the stigma
around Parkinson's and how itaffected the way people treat
you or perceive you?
David Fox (03:55):
Well, a good example is when I used to go to the
airport and I tried to do itwithout getting a separate
wheelchair because I didn't wantto look like I was crippled.
But every time I stood in aline they'd bring out the
sniffer dogs because I wastremoring.
So now I get the wheelchair inthe airport.
(04:18):
Other things too, like oftenyou look like you're drunk
because of the way you'rewalking, and when I went to Bud
Yew Boy Soccer Club for thefirst time the guy on the door
wouldn't let me in.
He's going, you're clearlydrunk.
I said I'm not drunk, I've gotParkinson's disease, and he
wouldn't believe me.
Then the manager came out and Iexplained I had Parkinson's
(04:40):
disease and he said oh, let himin.
I said I'll take a breathalyzeror anything, I don't mind.
Leon Goltsman (04:49):
I haven't been drinking at all yet.
Yeah, and I remember you weretelling me a story that time
when the security grabbed you,that time when they took your
bag off you and emptied out allthe contents after the yoga
lessons.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about that as well?
David Fox (05:01):
Well, I had the backpack on my shoulders and I
just stuck my head in the doorand and looked at the prices of
vodka, because I wanted a bottleof vodka and they were no good.
So I walked out and then theguy comes running out of the
store going you've stolensomething.
I said I didn't touch anything,you can look on the video
(05:22):
cameras.
I just stuck my head in lookingfor a price.
He goes take your bag off.
It had all my wet yoga gear init and stuff like my Bikram
costume, which was, anyway.
They went through absolutelyeverything all my pills.
What are these pills?
I said look, I haven't takenanything from this shop.
He said well, then you've gotnothing to worry about.
(05:45):
But they still kept me there inBondi Junction where I could
have been seen by who knows what.
Leon Goltsman (05:53):
Do you think that's because perhaps the
Parkinson's symptoms may havealluded them to?
Something is wrong?
David Fox (06:01):
I don't know what the police were thinking.
Leon Goltsman (06:03):
So you're someone who never stops.
I mean, I've known you for howlong now, Dave?
It's been a long time.
David Fox (06:08):
Since you were 12.
How old are you?
Leon Goltsman (06:10):
Okay, so let's just say since I was 12.
So we've known each other for avery long time, almost 40 years
.
That's a long time it is, and Ihaven't changed a bit.
David Fox (06:22):
They used to write on the back of his hand when he
used to play up in class so thatthey knew that he was a
troublemaker.
Leon Goltsman (06:30):
Yeah well, some things still never change, do
they?
David Fox (06:33):
No, I suppose not.
Leon Goltsman (06:35):
Well, when you're on a good thing, stick to it.
I say so, dave, from someonewho never stops, from martial
arts and dancing to calligraphyand craftsmanship.
You've always found ways tostay active and engaged and you
are an inspiration.
You were my karate instructor,but also a great friend and
somebody that we've competed notonly against each other but
(06:58):
with each other.
We've represented New SouthWales.
We've represented even on anational level.
David Fox (07:04):
Correct New.
Leon Goltsman (07:05):
South Wales, we've represented, even on a
national level Correct, and westill have the videos to prove
it.
And some of those competitionswe actually did pretty well,
didn't we?
David Fox (07:12):
Yeah, most of my videos have rotted away.
They're no good.
You can't use them anymore.
Yeah well, just as well.
We've still kept them digitalversions of it.
We got some digital ones out ofthem before they went kaput.
Leon Goltsman (07:26):
Well, I'm glad we've done that, but I've always
admired you for that, dave, andI just wanted to ask you what
drives you to keep learning andmoving, and how important is
that mindset for others livingwith a progressive condition?
David Fox (07:39):
Well, I had another complication on top of that.
I had a subarachnoid hemorrhage, which is when an embolism in
your brain expands.
It makes a little bubble andthen it pops.
And I was just sitting at homeand all of a sudden I had a
terrific pain in the back of myhead and then I couldn't get out
(08:02):
of the bed.
So I called the ambulance, Iwet the bed and then they took
me to Wyong Hospital up here andthey put me in the waiting room
.
The ambulance drivers and Ijust couldn't take the pain.
It's one of those painful things.
It's supposed to be morepainful than childbirth.
(08:22):
It's supposed to be morepainful than childbirth.
And I laid down on the floor inthe waiting room of Wyong
Hospital and they quickly cameout and grabbed me and said you
can't lie down here.
I said you want to bet?
And then I just collapsed againonto the floor and then they
realised I had a brainhaemorrhage and they choppered
(08:46):
me to Royal North Shore Hospitalwhere the surgeons had to do
some urgent surgery, and it waspretty nightmarish.
Really, going to the surgicalneurology room is like being
abducted by aliens.
It's all screens and monitorsand people lying there with
(09:09):
tubes in and out of them.
Leon Goltsman (09:11):
I can just imagine how frightening that
would have been, and a lot ofpeople didn't know what was
happening to you at the time.
What were you thinking?
David Fox (09:21):
Well, it was in the middle of COVID.
Everyone was wearing masksstill, so it was 2022.
Leon Goltsman (09:28):
Yeah, so it's a miracle that you're here, Dave.
David Fox (09:33):
Yeah, I came very close.
I had some pretty goodhallucinations about the end of
the world.
Leon Goltsman (09:39):
Sometimes things happen in life when we least
expect them.
Certainly you weren't expecting20, 30 years ago to be with
Parkinson's and then be in asituation during COVID Well, let
alone COVID itself who wouldhave thought something like
that's going to come around andaffect us the way that it has?
And then, on top of that,you've had to deal with this
(10:01):
situation.
David Fox (10:03):
Yeah, well, a large percentage of people who have
what I have just drop dead onthe spot and then, out of the
ones that make it to hospital, alot die in the hospital.
So I've come out of it prettyunscathed.
My left leg is a bit weak, butit's only if I want to do
something important with it thatit matters.
Leon Goltsman (10:29):
Well, on the way here, just before we started our
conversation, you've had a fewprivate students asking me to
come and join in and train.
I mean, look, I would haveloved to, and and and I will in.
If I promise you I'll come backand we'll do some cut and do
some training, but just seeingyou training and teaching the
people, your students, that'spretty remarkable, dave, I've
got to say.
That's pretty inspiring.
David Fox (10:48):
Yeah well, they were at another place up here in the
Central Coast and they justweren't being taught properly.
So one of my carers had anotherwoman who was one of her carers
and she'd actually taken her tothe karate classes give her a
(11:08):
lift there and watch the karateclass and she said, mate, you'd
do much better if you just wentto Dave and I didn't have any
students at that stage, and sowe started training in my
backyard and now there are fourpeople interested in it.
Leon Goltsman (11:23):
Yeah, I'm just thinking how incredible it is.
We hear people whinging andcomplaining and kind of say,
well, I can't do this or I'm notwell, I'm not feeling well,
I've got Parkinson's.
They make excuses.
I can't remember the last timeyou've ever made an excuse for
anything, let alone this.
So, dave, for other people whoare allowing their condition to
(11:48):
cripple them, what would youtell them?
David Fox (11:52):
Yeah, well, I've always kept training.
It started when I was in thehospital.
I couldn't even walk around theward of the hospital and when I
got out I couldn't walk fromaround the corner where my
friend lives, where I wasstaying, to my house here.
But gradually started walkingmore, got the dog, started
(12:14):
walking the dog every day.
And that's how it starts.
It starts with a stroller whereyou have to walk with a
stroller, then you can get bywith a stick.
Once you've built yourselfuproller, then you can get by
with a stick.
Once you've built yourself up,then you can walk normally.
And then sometimes I even do alittle bit of running, although
it's not really running.
You could walk faster than whatI run, but uh, just to stretch
(12:34):
the muscles out a little bit, uh, and that's.
And then you start doing somelight weights and they get
heavier and you get stronger andyou can build your strength
back up.
The main problem for peoplewith Parkinson's, in my view, is
they don't do enough to keepthemselves active.
On Friday mornings I go toParkinson's PD Warriors.
(12:58):
Pd is obviously Parkinson'sdisease and these are very
similar to karate kata and youdo them and that helps
strengthen you up as well.
Leon Goltsman (13:13):
I've watched you do karate.
You know in your prime and morerecently, and I've got to say
some of the techniques you dotoday.
I mean you've always beenexceptional level and you've put
in the effort.
You're not natural.
I mean both of us.
We're not natural karate peopleare we.
David Fox (13:31):
There are people who are far more natural than I was.
Leon Goltsman (13:34):
yes, Well, I think the key, you know, to us
and we've done pretty good overthe years in terms of winning
competitions and collectingperpetual trophies over the
years, I suppose but I thinkwhat got us there is that we
were always persistent.
We trained harder than most,didn't we?
David Fox (13:51):
Yeah, people would come and say let's do some
sparring and then watch you andme warm up and go.
I don't think I want to.
They'd say, let's do a cutter,and then they'd pike out.
Leon Goltsman (14:02):
When you speak to many elite athletes even
Michael Phelps, I mean he's anasthmatic and some of those
conditions, the things thatactually stop people from
training is the reason why theytrain in the first place.
I mean, for me it's beenarthritis and I've got to say
that, rather than letting itcripple me, I've always used it
(14:23):
to fuel me, to make me trainharder, to make me train better,
to make me train with moremindfulness.
So when I watch you do karatetraining even now, I mean I'd
love to get a video of you andactually post it one of these
days.
But when people see it, it'sreally hard to believe that
you've actually got thiscondition, because a lot of your
techniques is probably betterand stronger than most people
(14:46):
without it.
David Fox (14:47):
Well, my students.
They became my students.
They watched me punch Bob thebody opponent bag and they went.
Then you can see the difference.
So the power is the last thingto go.
Leon Goltsman (14:59):
I've got to say that if somebody mistaken you
for a handicap person walkingdown the street, I think they'd
be in for a bit of a shock ifyou decided that you were going
to defend yourself.
David Fox (15:13):
I think so.
Leon Goltsman (15:14):
Yeah.
So the lesson is if you seesomebody walking very slowly
with a walking stick, don'tassume anything.
David Fox (15:21):
Correct.
Leon Goltsman (15:23):
I do like your confidence, dave, but still not
everybody is like us in thatsense, and certainly not
everybody's like you, because alot of people do rely on our
system, on a system that that'smeant to take care of them.
They've got to deal withcomplex mazes of health systems,
funding bodies and bureaucratichurdles.
(15:45):
Now, from your perspective,where is the system letting
people down with Parkinson's,and what do you think needs to
change?
David Fox (15:54):
Well, I wouldn't categorise it as the system
letting them down, but we wouldlike a cure, like I've had it
almost 20 years and they saidmaybe in 20 years we'll have a
cure, and still no closer.
So if they treated it like theway they treated COVID, they'd
have it solved straight away.
But no one will throw enoughmoney at it.
Leon Goltsman (16:14):
Well, I only found out recently while
speaking to Parkinson's NewSouth Wales that Parkinson's is
the biggest bed hogger.
In fact, it hogs the beds inhospitals.
It takes approximately fiveyears to diagnose it.
So if they diagnosed it earlier, for instance, you'd be able to
(16:34):
have more available hospitalbeds, and yet it's not even on
the government's radar.
I've only realized recentlythat about 35% of people who
have Parkinson's they don't haveany tremors.
Only 35% of people withParkinson's actually have
tremors.
So people assume that if youdon't tremor, you don't have
(16:55):
Parkinson's.
That perhaps is probably one ofthe reasons why so many people
are not being diagnosed.
What do you think about that?
David Fox (17:04):
Yeah, they could work out a method for early
diagnosis.
That would help a fair bit.
But what can you do Until theyhave a cure for it?
Up until recently, they didn'tknow exactly what was causing it
.
It's not like you can just cutopen someone's brain and have a
look.
Leon Goltsman (17:20):
Yeah, but the thing is they actually do have
technology and they actually dohave ways of detecting
Parkinson's earlier.
The right medication could givepeople at least some sort of
dignity and give their livesback.
David Fox (17:35):
Some respite from the symptoms?
Leon Goltsman (17:37):
yes, and yet, if they're not diagnosing it, then
I suppose we have a problem,don't we?
David Fox (17:42):
And yet if they're not diagnosing it, then I
suppose we have a problem, don'twe?
Well, until you can prevent theprogression, there's not much
they can do.
Anyway, there's fairly goodmeds to keep you.
You know, I remember when I wasa child like four or five years
old in the block of units wherewe used to live, there was a
man with Parkinson's and he wasreally shaky.
(18:03):
He would walk out and he wasone big tremor, which is
probably what most people wouldbe like without any medication,
like they didn't have it inthose days, and that was a
nightmare.
My mother had an auntie who wasalso bedridden from Parkinson's
and used to just sit there intremor all day.
So we're lucky we've got themeds now, but we really need
(18:27):
something that will stop theprogression and more attention
to it, I suppose.
Leon Goltsman (18:32):
So if the government don't even have it on
their radar, that's a problem.
David Fox (18:36):
Yeah well, michael J Fox does a good job of getting
it out there.
He's been a great spokesman.
Leon Goltsman (18:44):
We talked about your recent major health scare
yeah, also the near-deathexperience that could have
changed everything.
What happened and how did thatmoment reshape you, how you kind
of now see your journey withParkinson's and life in general.
Now see your journey withParkinson's and life in general.
David Fox (19:02):
Well, I'm not as physically adept at anything now
, since I had the brainhemorrhage, but combined with
Parkinson's, well, that makes ittwice as hard, doesn't it?
Leon Goltsman (19:15):
It certainly hasn't stopped you from living
your life.
I mean you still drive, youstill go out your life.
I mean you still drive, youstill go out, you catch up with
friends, your family, you train,you've got a dog, you've got
friends, you've gotrelationships.
You're living a prettyfulfilling life.
(19:35):
You write.
You've written a book recently.
Haven't you Tell us a bit aboutyour book?
David Fox (19:38):
The book is called the Way of the Pigeon.
I first thought of the concepta little after I was diagnosed
with Parkinson's.
But I was in a car park inBondi Junction and I was waiting
for someone to pull out andthis guy came in in a WRX and
(20:03):
stood there waiting and when Itook the parking spot he started
yelling and screaming and allthat stuff.
So I started recording him andhe got out of the car and he was
threatening and I called thepolice and then, after it was
all settled, I went and sat inmy usual park and I was just
watching the pigeons and Irealised if I'd have just given
(20:26):
him the parking spot, if I'dhave just gotten out of the way,
it would have been a lot saferbecause he was ready to get
violent.
So I started watching pigeonsand I realised I made up these
10 rules about the pigeons.
Leon Goltsman (20:44):
A lot of people don't realize this, but pigeons
are actually a very athleticanimal, well bird, they can fly
from.
You know different countries,literally, and they're fit and
they're survivors, but alsothey're very nurturing, they're
loving, they know their home,they know their place.
So the pigeon is not just thebird that eats crumbs that
(21:05):
people leave behind.
Just in one sentence, dave,what can you tell me makes the
pigeon such an inspirationalbird?
David Fox (21:12):
Well, it was more okay.
The pigeon is in every country,in every climate, in great
numbers without having any jawsor teeth or jagged claws.
They basically fly away whenthere's any danger and they
don't have any recriminationsabout it.
And the pigeon has survived inall different climates and all
(21:38):
different landscapes.
And in the cities and in thecountry they just move out the
way.
When the dog runs into the park, they just fly away.
Leon Goltsman (21:47):
Well, the pigeon is a very mystical bird and I'm
sure we can talk a lot aboutpigeons, but the fact that
you've actually written a book,the Way of the Pigeon and I've
read it, and it is a veryinspiring book and it's not a
very big read you could probablyread it in one hour.
So, dave, as always, I do enjoycatching up with you and I'm
(22:09):
sure a lot of people will.
Once they meet you, they'llrealize how inspiring you are as
a person, but also as a friend.
And if I could, just someobservation as well, is that a
lot of people, from carers topoliticians, I still don't think
they fully get what Parkinson'sis or what it really is like to
(22:29):
live with it from day to day.
If you had the year of, say,parkinson's, new South Wales,
the health minister or even theprime minister, what is the one
message you want them to hearloud and clear?
David Fox (22:43):
I want them to throw as much money on Parkinson's as
they did on COVID.
Leon Goltsman (22:47):
To throw as much money on Parkinson's as they did
on COVID.
Wouldn't that be incredible?
David Fox (22:53):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (22:54):
Yeah Well, I'm sure a lot of people will agree
with you on that, dave, thankyou very much.
Always a pleasure to catch up,always a pleasure to see you.
And look, can I just ask youone more question before we go?
If people wanted to get incontact with you just to reach
out, to learn more about you andpossibly even about some karate
(23:15):
training or other things, whatis the best way for them to
reach you?
David Fox (23:19):
The best way if someone wants to contact me is
probably via email at the moment, davidneilfox N-E-I-L at
gmailcom.
Leon Goltsman (23:30):
That's davidneilfox at gmailcom.
Correct, perfect, dave.
Thank you very much.
Lovely to have you on the show.
David Fox (23:40):
Thanks, leon, I appreciate it.
Leon Goltsman (23:42):
And there you have it, folks.
What an extraordinary anddeeply moving conversation with
David Fox, an individual whosestrength, humor and humility
remind us what it truly means tolive with purpose.
From his ears as a karatechampion to his honest
reflections.
Humour and humility remind uswhat it truly means to live with
(24:03):
purpose, From his ears as akarate champion to his honest
reflections from navigatingParkinson's to our health system
.
David's story is one ofpersistence, adaptability and
the quiet power of never givingup.
He's lived through stigma,medical misdiagnosis and even a
life-threatening brainhemorrhage, and yet he continues
to teach, inspire and show upfor others.
(24:23):
His message today is one thatwe all need to hear that behind
every condition, every label,there's a human being, and they
deserve dignity, attention andaction.
If you'd like to connect withDavid, you can reach him
directly at DavidNeilFox atgmailcom.
That's Neil with an E-I.
(24:46):
Looking ahead, we're excited tokeep bringing you stories from
people who are changing lives,not just in big, flashy ways,
but in practical, personal andpowerful ones From
rehabilitation specialists tohappiness facilitators, to those
helping others re-enter theworkforce, to innovators behind
groundbreaking globaltechnologies.
(25:07):
Engaging conversations is wherereal people, real solutions and
real value come together.
There'll be insight,inspiration and more than a few
surprises along the way, and Iwant to hear from you what
resonated with you today, whatwould you like us to explore in
future episodes?
Email me anytime atleongoltzman at ecohqcomau,
(25:32):
because this podcast is built onthe voices we share together,
and if you found value in thisepisode, please follow Engaging
Conversations, leave a reviewand share it with someone who
needs to hear it.
Let's grow a community thatlistens, learns and leads with
heart.
I'm Leon Goltsman.
Until next time, stay engaged,stay connected and let's keep
(25:56):
building the kind of communitythat we all want to be a part of
together.
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