November 11, 2025 • 33 mins
The background laughter wasn’t noise; it was the cue. Recorded in Paddington, surrounded by young people finding their voice. Sitting down with technologist and board member Zina Kaye to dig into a simple truth: curiosity becomes courage when you ship small experiments and listen hard.
Zina takes us from the gritty origins of early compression tech to present-day AI, banking, and sustainability projects, showing how unexpected places often spark the most useful advances. Her rock and roll method, pairing an idea with ten surreal couplings, forces teams past rigid heuristics and into fresh, testable paths. We unpack how she moved from flimsy indoor balloons to a large autonomous plane by “farting around,” documenting every miss, and scaling only what worked. It’s a repeatable playbook for founders, product leaders, and policy makers who want fewer slides and more signal.
We challenge lazy assumptions inside organisations too. A board wanted a shiny CRM; customer research showed people only wanted to pay bills online and download schedules. That gap, between what leaders assume and what users actually need, is where service design earns its keep. Zina shares wins that blend digital with the offline nudge, like paper signs in dance classes that quietly drove ticket sales. We also call out shittification: tools that add friction while pretending to be smart. Real productivity means giving people choice, clarity, and dignity, not vanity metrics or chatbot mazes.
Heart-led innovation anchors the conversation. Through Anawim’s shared lunches, Zina helps tackle loneliness by creating settings that restore confidence and a sense of belonging, right down to details that many overlook. Her climate view is equally pragmatic: keep the joy, adjust the system. Let lawns grow, compost the easy way, and utilise public art to tell more compelling stories. If you’re stuck, start small in your own community, run a micro test, learn fast, and iterate. Subscribe, share with someone who needs a push to try, and leave a review telling us the first tiny experiment you’re going to run this week.
Holy Sydney Website: https://hol.ly/
Thank you for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leon Goltsman (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Engaging Conversations.
I'm your host, Leon Goltsman,and each week we sit down with
people who are reshaping how wethink, live and connect.
If you're a regular listener,welcome back.
It's great to have you herewith us again.
And if you're new, I'm so gladyou found us.
And if I don't say so myself,you're in good company here.
(00:23):
Curious minds, good people, andreal conversations that matter.
Today's episode was recorded onlocation in Sydney's vibrant
Paddington.
Surrounded by the laughter andenergy of young people
discovering what it means togive back.
We chose not to silence thatbackground sound because it's
more than noise.
It's the heartbeat of ourcommunity, a living reminder
(00:46):
that future voices deserve to beheard.
If podcasts have a soul, thisone's alive with purpose.
My special guest is Zina Kaye,a technologist, innovator, a
board member, and anunapologetic creative force
known as the futurist whoembraces the chaos.
Zina's career spans the earlydays of the internet to today's
(01:09):
most exciting advances in AI,sustainability and
human-centered innovation.
In this conversation, weexplore how curiosity becomes
courage, how failure fuelscreativity, and why there's
really no such thing as a badidea.
Zina's energy is infectious.
She challenges the ordinary,celebrates the unpredictable,
(01:31):
and reminds us that some of thebest breakthroughs begin as
experiments that didn't go asplanned.
This episode is proudlysupported by Nepean Advanced
Rehab and Allied Health Centre,empowering movement and
restoring life through expertcare delivered with compassion
and results.
And a special thank you to NiazCannoth for his continued
(01:53):
support of good people doinggreat things and helping connect
communities through innovationand heart.
So wherever you're listening,walking, driving, or dreaming up
your next big idea, settle in.
This one's gonna make youthink, laugh, and maybe even see
failure a little differently.
So without further ado, let'sget into it.
Zina Kaye (02:17):
Hi, I'm Zina Kaye.
I am a technologist, aninnovator, a board member, a
mother.
I live in Bondi, and somethingrather crazy about me is that
I'm a dinosaur of the internet.
I've been around before thefirst internet browser.
I I am I am ancient technology.
Leon Goltsman (02:37):
You're calling yourself that, but you've also
been described as the futuristwho embraces the chaos.
Is that true?
Zina Kaye (02:45):
I am the futurist that embraces the chaos.
Um I've embraced technologychanges that were invented in
sport, in porn.
Leon Goltsman (02:55):
In porn?
Zina Kaye (02:56):
In porn.
Leon Goltsman (02:57):
No, no, well, okay.
Oh that caught me off guard.
Okay, keep keep going, keepgoing.
Zina Kaye (03:03):
Well, I don't know if you know this, but one of the
first uses for technology waswas porn, and one of the first
uses for compression was videocompression for interactive CDs,
where you could interact withsomebody in a in a kind of
sexual way.
So I suppose a forebearer ofthe current AI bots that you can
(03:26):
interact with. AI.
Leon Goltsman (03:28):
I read about that in the book once.
So I'm about to ask you aboutchaos, and you've um you've just
put some images into my mind.
So I was gonna say, what doesit actually look like?
Don't answer that.
Zina Kaye (03:47):
But um it was very old tech, so there are lots of
menus and clicking and then justwaiting for things to load, and
that's where that innovationcame was like to try and reduce
the load time by innovating incompression, and then that got
you know circulated to othertechnologies.
Leon Goltsman (04:04):
I mean, I've heard that things start off
because of um because ofmilitary, because of war.
But yeah, okay, okay, that's aninteresting one.
Uh I'm sure that would havecaused a lot of chaos as well,
somewhere.
Zina Kaye (04:20):
Well, um, yes, I'm the kind of person that's not
afraid to go in any directionwith ideas.
You know, I just I enjoyinnovating and delivering value.
So I remember when I was doingmy MBA, we were doing a case
study for speciality fashiongriff, and it was around the
time that Shades of Grey cameout, and I could see that there
(04:42):
was, you know, this beginningmarket in uh or an increased
market in sex toys and thingslike that.
So whilst all my compadressuggested things like joint
ventures and shaving off a fewcents in the production, I said
you've got the biggest databaseof women in Australia.
(05:03):
Why don't you discreetly sellthem online sex toys?
And they did.
They went with that idea.
Leon Goltsman (05:10):
Okay.
Well, you've certainly embraceduncertainty into a profitable
business.
Zina Kaye (05:19):
Yes, I am a sought-after consultant.
I'm still working withinnovative technologies more and
more, I think, at scale.
So neo-banking, hydrogenstorage.
It is a it is profitable tohave that history and knowledge
and understand how things playout and what what innovation and
(05:41):
the uncertainty of innovationlooks like and you know having
that having that experience thatyou can bring to a team.
Leon Goltsman (05:48):
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of um a lot of people, like
the most of us, uh, how wouldyou recommend that they turn
uncertainty into creativityrather than just fear?
Because obviously fear holdspeople back.
Zina Kaye (06:02):
Ooh, that's a really good question.
Um I think there are three waysthat people can turn
uncertainty into certainty.
And the first one is at anorganizational level.
So when you when you bringpeople through exercises where
(06:22):
they can speak their mind and beopen about their fears.
This was actually a methodologythat was pioneered in uh the
British banking system, thenpeople can move forward because
they have been open about whatscares them, about what's going
(06:43):
to go on.
It's a bit like when you whenyou when you put your fears on
the table, when you shine lighton them, there's they they
become less less interesting, oryou can have a plan to deal
with them.
The second thing aboutuncertainty is doing small
experiments to see if thingswork.
So with Holly, we've oftencollaborated with people who
have an idea and they don't knowwhether it's going to work out.
(07:06):
And so we do little websites orlittle demo products, take it
to market, take it to people inthe value chain and test it out.
And that is a really great wayto know if you've got something
there and then develop it.
Leon Goltsman (07:22):
So it's kind of like a catalyst for something
that might eventually becomeremarkable.
Zina Kaye (07:27):
Yes, so that's true, that's true.
It can be a catalyst forsomething that's remarkable.
I think when you're reallyuncertain and you you know that
there is a a market there or youcan see it, but you you want to
you you're just kind of on thecusp and you've really got to
kind of um bring it out of yourback pocket as it were, then I
(07:49):
always have the kind of rec rockand roll method of innovation,
which is to try and pair it withsomething completely different.
So it's kind of like like doinga cookbook, going, okay, well,
here is this product or service,but I'm gonna do 10 completely
surreal couplings with that ideaand try and work out if that
(08:10):
tells me anything.
That's the that's the kind ofrock and roll fun version.
Leon Goltsman (08:14):
So it's it's kind of like many breakthroughs have
started from something thatfailed once, potentially.
Zina Kaye (08:21):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
I think I mean I I I reallyenjoy looking at failure and I
really enjoy talking to peoplewho failed and turned into
turned into something else.
So Australia produced thisfantastic rocket that was tested
in a Nordic country and itexploded immediately.
And we've and we've actuallyjust had um another rocket
(08:42):
that's just exploded in the uhQueensland.
Leon Goltsman (08:45):
I hope they're not using it to transport people
anytime soon.
Because if it's exploding, Idon't want to be on that rocket.
Zina Kaye (08:51):
Well, no, these are all these are all tests, they're
these are all tests.
Leon Goltsman (08:54):
Okay, okay.
Zina Kaye (08:55):
And and the idea is that you know there's gonna be a
certain amount of failure, soyou you put that in the budget,
but you make sure that you'vegot lots of documentation and
you're really learning fromfailure, and that's where
failure is actually just a verysimilar analogue to how many
no's to yes.
Leon Goltsman (09:12):
So, why do you believe there's no such thing as
a bad idea?
I mean, I'm gonna ask you.
No, no, I'm gonna ask youagain, you know, maybe I'll word
it slightly differently.
How how would you see yourselfhelping people uh see the
potential hidden insidesomething that initially looks
impossible?
Zina Kaye (09:30):
Well, I've got an example for you, and I think it
proves that adage that there'sno such thing as a bad idea.
So I could see that there wassomething there about using
unmanned technology to look atthe landscape, you know, look
look from up to down.
And I was tooling around withsome guys at a conference called
(09:53):
Ars Electronica in Austria.
They were from Holland and wewere just sort of sitting there
sketching things out on a napkinone night, and I said, okay,
I'll go and try and get thisfunded and see if we can build
it.
And at that point, we wereusing kind of off-the-rack
technology for navigating Mylarballoons inside.
(10:13):
But it was all very flimsy, andeven though I could write the
interface to control that, Ididn't have a very broad use
case because it was a tiny spacethat it could be used in.
And I discovered that throughdoing little experiments, you
know, buying the technology,trying it out in a big space,
losing control of the balloon,smashing up the flimsy plastic
technology, and then trying towork out how I would do this at
(10:36):
a larger scale.
So in the end, I built anunmanned autonomous vehicle, a
giant aeroplane.
Model aeroplane.
Leon Goltsman (10:45):
You built it.
Zina Kaye (10:46):
Yes, with with some with people.
With people.
Bob Young from Silver ToneElectronics and another guy
called Barry Ming who helpedbuild the model.
Um, people from the artscommunity here, people from uh
the telco community.
And we built this aeroplanewhich had a boxer engine and a
(11:06):
three-meter wingspan and couldbe flown around.
Leon Goltsman (11:10):
Boxer engine is in from a Porsche.
Zina Kaye (11:12):
Uh no, it's a it's a type of engine, it's like a
symmetrical engine.
Okay.
Symmetrical modern airplaneengine.
Leon Goltsman (11:17):
Okay.
Zina Kaye (11:18):
Yeah.
We built this uh aeroplane, andwe were at the time we were
kind of in competition with auniversity project that was
funded by British Aerospace, andwe got our plane in the sky
before they did.
Wow.
Just because we farted aroundand did little experiments and
well it reminds me of the Wrightbrothers, you know.
Leon Goltsman (11:39):
There was a uh a conference, all these professors
and doctors and um engineersand whoever, or whoever these
people are, they're meant to beexperts and they scientists, and
they've got together and theysaid, there is absolutely no way
a person will be able to fly.
It's just impossible.
But as they were saying at thatparticular time, too, bicycle
(11:59):
mechanics, Wilbur and Orvin,they were flying.
Yep.
So you just don't know what'sgoing on.
Yes, people have to believe,don't they?
Zina Kaye (12:08):
Yes, they do, they do.
And I think also it's not onlythat people have to believe, but
also um people, um, if you'vegot a roadmap, even if it's not
the correct roadmap, it's stilla map that's gonna take you so
somewhere.
Yeah, and then as humans we doa bit of correction.
We can't help it.
Leon Goltsman (12:26):
So Zena, your work sits at the intersection of
technology, innovation, andhumanity.
And I mean humanity is a is animportant one because that's
kind of how you and I met.
And it's not just gadgets anddata.
So, how do you make technologyhuman again so that it serves
people rather than overwhelmsthem?
Zina Kaye (12:45):
So I come from the world of human experience using
computers.
Leon Goltsman (12:53):
So we and that's what we started off on.
Zina Kaye (12:56):
That's what we started off on.
Leon Goltsman (12:57):
But we evolved somewhere else now.
Zina Kaye (12:59):
So um, which um and that that has turned into
service design, which means thaton one hand uh we build things
that are which have a techinterface and a huge back end or
click into other things, andthen at some point a human is
using this and and they're alsousing offline things, and that's
(13:20):
been very much the philosophyof Holly Sydney.
So one of the earliest clientsof ours was um Sydney Dance
Company, and we built them a newwebsite and and created their
first archive of all the postersand images that they had and
all the ephemera of all the ofall the ballets that they put
on, and then they had thisproblem where they wanted to
(13:43):
sell more tickets, and we put ina bridge to a ticket selling
website, and I also said, butyou also need to put some paper
signs up in your dance classesbecause that's you know, you
have so much throughput ofpeople in those dance classes.
If you put ticket sales upthere, then you're gonna sell
(14:04):
tickets there, and they did, ofcourse.
Leon Goltsman (14:06):
You know, it's a good thing they listened to you.
Zina Kaye (14:08):
Yeah, they made an awful amount of money that year.
Huge.
So when I think about solvingproblems uh or building systems
for banks, uh museums, um,property companies, I'm always
thinking about making it thebest experience for the human,
(14:28):
not using technology justbecause it's fashionable, and I
hope this word's okay, and andnot kind of pandering to end
shittification, which is thatidea of putting in technology
that just makes people's livesworse, like AI chatbots, for
example, for technical.
Leon Goltsman (14:45):
Well, a lot of them I think they're taking the
Mickey out of people because thetechnology it makes people feel
like they're smart, but that'sthe danger because smart people
don't feel that way.
Smart people are always wantingto learn more.
They admit that they don't knoweverything.
That suddenly you've got thistool, but you've got this
platform, and it tells you howsmart you are.
(15:07):
It's literally peeing insomeone's pocket and telling
them how unreal they are, andagrees with them.
And so they walk away feelinglike they're so smart and that's
dangerous.
Zina Kaye (15:18):
It is, it is.
Leon Goltsman (15:18):
That's dangerous.
But you have helped governmentstartups and even sceptics
navigate innovation, and you'vegot a good knack for that.
Zina, what's the most commonbarrier you see holding leaders
back from embracing new ideas?
Zina Kaye (15:32):
I think the most common barrier I see for leaders
to embrace new ideas isheuristics.
So I I think that people have avision of what something will
be like, they'll have um ashared understanding around what
will be approved, and thenthat's it, you know, and that
(15:53):
and that doesn't allow them tothink beyond that.
Leon Goltsman (15:57):
So they're kind of putting themselves in a box.
Zina Kaye (16:00):
Yeah, basically.
So what I try and do is umobviously run workshops, mentor
people to think outside the box.
At the moment, a lot of myfocus is on how we're going to
work with our humans and notretrench them, not replace them
by technology because like we'regonna end up in a position
(16:23):
where we don't have anyconsumers.
Leon Goltsman (16:25):
Yeah, but but the thing is technology is a great
thing because I just think thatpeople are using it wrong.
Technology is a great way toimprove productivity.
When I say that, yeah, I meansometimes the tedious tasks are
the important ones.
Yeah.
It's not what you come up with,it's how you got there.
Zina Kaye (16:44):
Yes.
I absolutely, I absolutelyagree with you, but there's
something really key here, whichis if you if you've got that
heuristic and you haven't donethe research first, then you're
often building something whichdoesn't answer the problem.
So let me give you an example.
I was working with a companythat really wanted to put in a
(17:06):
CRM, and basically we looked atthe the value chain and the the
service map of how people track,you know, touch point the
various points of the businessand what they want.
And so they were dead set oncollecting people's details,
whereas all people wanted to dowas pay their bills online.
(17:26):
That's all they wanted to do,and then like download some data
occasionally for you knowcalendars, timetables, things
like that.
But the the heuristic at theboard level was oh, we we need a
CRM, people want uh wantcustomized emails basically that
tell them that we care aboutthem.
But that's not what they careabout.
Leon Goltsman (17:47):
No, no, that's right.
It just goes to show thatpeople aren't listening, they
think they know everything.
Zina Kaye (17:52):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (17:53):
Jamming their products and services down
people's throats.
Zina Kaye (17:57):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (17:57):
And that's what what we're seeing a lot of.
Zina Kaye (17:59):
Yes, I mean that unfortunately that's business,
is that you you productize orservice ize a business and then
you you it's easy to sell in aparticular way, sort of seems to
solve a problem, but doesn't.
You know, in in this case, it'slike selling snake oil.
Leon Goltsman (18:17):
It seems to solve the problem at the time.
When you see companies thatactually have done well and
succeeded, yeah, it's notbecause they're trying to sell.
They're not the sellers.
They're they're they understandpeople's problems.
Zina Kaye (18:34):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (18:35):
I think that that's where it all should
start.
Understanding why we do what wedo.
Zina Kaye (18:40):
Yeah.
I mean, ultimately, like youand I, people don't want to be
machines serving the uh, forexample, LinkedIn machine, the
whole kind of human resourcesthing.
I've got to change my resumeagain so that the machine will
analyse it correctly this time.
And I'm trying, I really wantto get into that sorting hat.
How is that making lives moreproductive?
Leon Goltsman (19:02):
Well, it's not.
As soon as people say I've gotto do this, they've lost power.
Yeah.
You know, I I've been insituations where I spend a lot
of time in regional parts of NewSouth Wales.
Yeah.
And I travel where I where Iwant to go and how I want to go,
most of the time, anyway.
Uh and if I do end up coming toa meeting or particular
(19:23):
appointment or doing somethingthat other people may not want
to do, people say to me, Oh,you've got it, you're here
because you you have to.
Zina Kaye (19:31):
Yes.
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (19:32):
No, I don't.
If I don't want to go there, Idon't come.
Zina Kaye (19:34):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (19:35):
I don't turn up.
And that's because I've got theability to choose.
That's empowering.
Zina Kaye (19:39):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (19:40):
And and people don't have to try and please all
these people on social mediathat they don't even know.
People are bragging, they'regoing, oh, I've got 30,000
followers.
Well, guess what?
These 30,000 people could be abunch of dodos for all I know.
How many of them actually spentmoney with you?
Yes.
How many of them actually madeyour life better?
Zina Kaye (19:58):
Yep, totally.
Leon Goltsman (19:58):
Instead, what they've done is they've taken up
your precious time, yeah, tryand please people you don't
know.
Yes.
And I think what's important isI'd rather have one or two real
connections and knowing thatI'm everything to those people
rather than a little bit ofsomething to everybody.
Zina Kaye (20:16):
Yes, yes, yes.
I I I'm with you there.
Leon Goltsman (20:19):
Well, and if anyone would know how to serve
the very people that yourepresent, it would be you.
Because you do serve onmultiple boards, from University
of New South Wales to Anawims.
Do you decide that right?
Zina Kaye (20:35):
The Anuwim, yeah.
Leon Goltsman (20:35):
Anawim.
Where innovation meetscompassion.
What does innovation from theheart mean to you?
Zina Kaye (20:40):
That innovation with a heart is just the should be
the catch-cry for our century,really, shouldn't it?
Because we've got so many greatideas and and we've got really
passionate people and and peoplewant to do something, and so
let's put the two together.
So Anawim is a charity thattakes people out to lunch.
(21:01):
We're solving the problem ofloneliness, and I suppose not
feeling like you're at thetable, being unseen, not feeling
like you have a voice, thatyou're worthy.
So we take groups out likeWayside Chapel, Northern Beaches
(21:23):
Women's Shelter, the BurdekinGroup, Southeastern Community
Connect, and take them out tolunch, have a sit-down meal, and
chat, let them relax, let thembe served, have fine food, and
and be a different version ofthemselves.
Leon Goltsman (21:43):
So people can be a different version of
themselves, but it's the versionthey want to be.
It's maybe it's the realversion of themselves that
they've been suppressing becausethey didn't feel comfortable
they could.
When you think about that.
Zina Kaye (21:56):
I I totally agree.
I think that people do suppressthat that um that version of
themselves because they are downon themselves.
You know, they're they're in akind of mental uh construct.
Um but also having said that, alot of our guests have come
(22:17):
from a place where they haven'tfelt safe or they just really
are trying to, they're in aperiod of great change, maybe
they've left a relationship witha child, they don't have that
network in place.
So our lunches also allow thiskind of intergenerational
meeting so people can, you know,maybe find that babysitter or
(22:40):
talk to young people and notfeel like they're just kind of
locked in their own bubble.
Because we kind of are beingseparated out in society, aren't
we?
Leon Goltsman (22:49):
I don't think so much separated out.
I would probably describe it asmore closing ourselves in.
Zina Kaye (22:56):
Mmm, yes, yeah, yeah, no, I see what you mean there,
yes.
Leon Goltsman (23:00):
Yeah, because all this technology is meant to
bring us closer to each other,really.
Zina Kaye (23:06):
Yes, yeah.
Leon Goltsman (23:07):
But what it does is does the complete opposite.
We'd lose this, people losethat human interaction.
Zina Kaye (23:13):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (23:14):
I've seen personal experiences where
people are no longer picking upthe phone and reaching out
anymore.
It's all emails.
Yes.
And the problem with that is,and I'm not gonna talk about the
the conversations I have withmy staff, but I could tell you
that when we have an event orwhen we do something, I'll pick
up the phone and call people.
And if there's 150 of them,I'll call at least at least half
(23:39):
of those people.
Zina Kaye (23:40):
Yep, yeah.
Leon Goltsman (23:40):
Some I'll send a message because I I don't want
to talk to them.
No, I'm kidding.
I'll talk to them.
I apologize to anyone who gotwho've gone to my events who
didn't get a call from me.
I promise you I love you.
Zina Kaye (23:57):
You just ran out of time on the call list.
Leon Goltsman (24:00):
Chatting away.
Zina Kaye (24:01):
How's it going?
Oh, you know, let me tell youabout it.
Leon Goltsman (24:04):
Well, they could have called me, you know.
No, they usually do, no.
We can joke about it, andthat's how you know you're on
good terms with people.
Zina Kaye (24:12):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Leon Goltsman (24:13):
They're still in your phone book.
Zina Kaye (24:15):
Yes, yeah, yeah, no, totally.
Um, well, I do think that oneof the one of the barriers to
entry though is how we present.
So there are a lot of peoplethat turn up to the lunches in
their best clothes, which theymight have sort of cobbled
together in a way.
You know, a lot I talk topeople a bit about about um,
(24:37):
particularly people who comeearly to lunch, you know, I ask
them how they got here, whatthey've been doing that day.
We've got a lot of people whodon't have teeth, who don't have
their front teeth, because withhomelessness, there's a there's
a lot of violence and they'llhave lost their teeth and then
not being able to get more teethuntil they've kind of finished
(24:58):
programs, or or they don't eventhey might have a voucher to get
more teeth, but they don't feelcomfortable enough to to get
teeth.
Leon Goltsman (25:06):
And that would affect and that would probably
affect the way that they smileor don't smile.
Zina Kaye (25:11):
Well, or even that they won don't want to come to
lunch with other people becausethey don't want to be seen to be
kind of spitting, yeah, youknow.
Um anyway, I try and I try andimmediately make people feel
incredibly comfortable aboutthat because you know everybody
should be there and have a goodtime.
I have the best conversationswith our guests, I really do.
Leon Goltsman (25:33):
Well, I can see why.
I don't think there's there's atopic you can't turn into an
innovative discussion.
Zina Kaye (25:41):
Well, and also, I mean, it we make a lot of
assumptions about people and uhsocioeconomically and then what
they read and understand.
Some of the most interestingconversations about ChatGPT I've
had have been with our guests,you know, from Wayside or from
Southeastern Community Connect,who um are observing people use
(26:02):
this technology with um the eyeof an anthropologist and Riley
noticing how the good and thebad, I suppose.
Leon Goltsman (26:11):
Well, one of the things you're a um a warrior on
Zina Warrior Princess.
Zina damn you've used that onebefore, haven't you?
Zina Kaye (26:20):
I have.
People used to go down thecorridor and at AGSM.
Leon Goltsman (26:26):
Do they still do that?
Zina Kaye (26:27):
Yes, they're one or two that they're doing.
Leon Goltsman (26:29):
Okay, I'm sure after people listen to this
program, you'll probably get afew more.
Zina Kaye (26:33):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (26:33):
Especially if you come to a networking event.
If they don't, I will.
So you you've you've been anadvocate for climate adaptation,
especially for chillax people.
Why do you believemodernization and cultural
diversity might be the key tosolving our biggest
environmental challenges?
Zina Kaye (26:51):
Oh that that's an interesting question.
Hmm.
I mean, let me break that downinto two parts.
Leon Goltsman (26:58):
So the first thing is That's how politicians
answer questions.
You ask them one thing, they'llbreak it down, they'll give you
an answer, and it's got nothingto do with the question.
Zina Kaye (27:07):
Well, it's just chillaxed modernization,
diversity.
They're three, you know, wordsthat you know need a bit of
weaving, don't they?
Leon Goltsman (27:17):
Yep, that's exactly what they say.
Zina Kaye (27:21):
So um, you know, environmentalism and climate
adaptation for chillax peoplemeans we all really enjoy our
lives, we enjoy our our creaturecomforts, we have an
extraordinary level of lifestylehere in Australia, and I don't
want to separate anybody fromtheir from their aeroplane rides
(27:43):
or their stake or whatever itis, you know.
I don't I don't think we needto do that.
But one uh thing that I dothink that we can do, for
example, is take uh take anexample from permaculture and
not mow our grass shorter than10 centimetres.
Because then, you know, thatcreates a um micro climate which
(28:07):
traps carbon and so on and soforth, has multiple benefits.
And you know, that it's it'sall these small changes that we
can do, and then but you don'thave to do anything, it's like a
set and forget, you know.
It's like it's like watering inground, having having a bit of
plumbing tube that goes intoyour garden bed where you put
your scraps is much easier andcheaper than sending it
(28:31):
somewhere else.
Leon Goltsman (28:32):
And usually they send our recycled waste by
trains and other transport thatuses fuel.
Go figure, the hypocrisy.
Yes.
And people buy into that.
Zina Kaye (28:41):
Yes.
I was actually um complainingto my to my younger son uh
yesterday as he put a tin inthe, you know, tin tomatoes in
the main rubbish, and I said,well, council has to pay more to
separate that out.
So just with modernisation, soum I did propose to Waverly
Council to be thinker inresidence and do these
(29:02):
projection artworks for thelaunch of Fogo to basically
represent rubbish and greenwaste and and food waste in a
really beautiful way using umusing photography to and
projection at night um on someof our kind of monuments.
That's fantastic.
Yeah, I think.
Leon Goltsman (29:20):
What a great idea.
Zina Kaye (29:21):
I know it is.
I didn't get I didn't get thethinker in residence, but I
still would really like to.
Leon Goltsman (29:25):
Just about it, it's still it's it's the
process.
Zina Kaye (29:27):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (29:28):
But if we try sometime, we can get what we
need.
That's it.
So uh Zina, always a pleasureto talk to you.
And one of the things is thatyou inspired so many to find
courage in experimentation andplayfulness.
For listeners who feel stuck orafraid of failure, what is the
first step that they can take toturn curiosity into
(29:50):
contribution?
Zina Kaye (29:52):
Ooh.
If people uh want to um use,you know, like use their
curiosity.
Do some experimentation, thendoing it within your community
often is a great place to start.
Whatever community you belongto, there are always problems to
solve.
And that curiosity starts withasking questions around what
(30:15):
problems need to be solved.
But just start with somethingclose to your heart and grow it
from there.
Leon Goltsman (30:20):
Well, that is some really good advice there.
Zina, I've really enjoyed thisconversation.
I'm sure a lot of people aregonna love listening to it and
they're gonna want to learnmore.
If anyone wants to connect withyou, what is the best way for
them to contact you?
Zina Kaye (30:34):
So thank you so much, Leon.
I've just had the best time andyou're a lot of fun, and I hope
that we uh maybe get to doanother episode over cake
perhaps or or something.
Um cake.
Leon Goltsman (30:46):
Did you say cake?
Zina Kaye (30:49):
So if people want to find me, I'm on LinkedIn, Zina
Kaye.
I have a little website calledGrowth Dynamics, and I'm on
Twitter at Zina Kaye.
And uh you can find me at HollySydney as well.
Leon Goltsman (31:03):
Um I'm gonna have all those things in the show
notes as well.
So you don't have to rush andget a pen, those people
listening, and then um and thenafter click below, and then
click below, all the informationwill be there.
Zina, thank you so much.
It's really good.
(31:24):
Thank you.
Zina Kaye (31:24):
Please like and subscribe, Leon.
Leon Goltsman (31:26):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
That was fantastic.
Zina Kaye (31:30):
Thank you so much, Leon.
Leon Goltsman (31:32):
Now that was a conversation bursting with
creativity, courage, and chaosin the best possible way.
Zina Kaye reminds us thatinnovation doesn't just happen
in straight lines.
It's messy, unpredictable, andoften born from the ideas we're
told won't work.
But as Zina clearly shows us,when we stay curious, play with
(31:54):
possibilities, and dare toexperiment, we open the door to
breakthroughs that can and oftendo change everything.
If there's one thing to takeaway from today's conversation,
it's this.
Don't silence the noise.
I'm gonna repeat that again.
Don't silence the noise.
Because whether it's thelaughter of the kids in the
background or the spark of awild idea, sometimes the things
(32:17):
we overlook are exactly whatmakes life and innovation
meaningful.
A huge thank you once again toNepean Advanced Rehab and Allied
Health Center, where every dayis about empowering movement and
restoring life.
And of course, Niaz Cannoth forhis ongoing support of good
people doing great things andfor helping amplify the voices
of those making a realdifference.
(32:39):
If today's episode made yousmile, sparked an idea, or
challenged how you think, shareit with someone ready to embrace
a little chaos and curiosity intheir own life.
I'm Leon Goltsman and this hasbeen Engaging Conversations
where purpose meets people.
And until next time, staycurious, stay connected, and
let's continue doing greatthings together.
Hello and welcome to Engaging Conversations.
I'm your host, Leon Goltsman,and each week we sit down with
people who are reshaping how wethink, live and connect.
If you're a regular listener,welcome back.
It's great to have you herewith us again.
And if you're new, I'm so gladyou found us.
And if I don't say so myself,you're in good company here.
(00:23):
Curious minds, good people, andreal conversations that matter.
Today's episode was recorded onlocation in Sydney's vibrant
Paddington.
Surrounded by the laughter andenergy of young people
discovering what it means togive back.
We chose not to silence thatbackground sound because it's
more than noise.
It's the heartbeat of ourcommunity, a living reminder
(00:46):
that future voices deserve to beheard.
If podcasts have a soul, thisone's alive with purpose.
My special guest is Zina Kaye,a technologist, innovator, a
board member, and anunapologetic creative force
known as the futurist whoembraces the chaos.
Zina's career spans the earlydays of the internet to today's
(01:09):
most exciting advances in AI,sustainability and
human-centered innovation.
In this conversation, weexplore how curiosity becomes
courage, how failure fuelscreativity, and why there's
really no such thing as a badidea.
Zina's energy is infectious.
She challenges the ordinary,celebrates the unpredictable,
(01:31):
and reminds us that some of thebest breakthroughs begin as
experiments that didn't go asplanned.
This episode is proudlysupported by Nepean Advanced
Rehab and Allied Health Centre,empowering movement and
restoring life through expertcare delivered with compassion
and results.
And a special thank you to NiazCannoth for his continued
(01:53):
support of good people doinggreat things and helping connect
communities through innovationand heart.
So wherever you're listening,walking, driving, or dreaming up
your next big idea, settle in.
This one's gonna make youthink, laugh, and maybe even see
failure a little differently.
So without further ado, let'sget into it.
Zina Kaye (02:17):
Hi, I'm Zina Kaye.
I am a technologist, aninnovator, a board member, a
mother.
I live in Bondi, and somethingrather crazy about me is that
I'm a dinosaur of the internet.
I've been around before thefirst internet browser.
I I am I am ancient technology.
Leon Goltsman (02:37):
You're calling yourself that, but you've also
been described as the futuristwho embraces the chaos.
Is that true?
Zina Kaye (02:45):
I am the futurist that embraces the chaos.
Um I've embraced technologychanges that were invented in
sport, in porn.
Leon Goltsman (02:55):
In porn?
Zina Kaye (02:56):
In porn.
Leon Goltsman (02:57):
No, no, well, okay.
Oh that caught me off guard.
Okay, keep keep going, keepgoing.
Zina Kaye (03:03):
Well, I don't know if you know this, but one of the
first uses for technology waswas porn, and one of the first
uses for compression was videocompression for interactive CDs,
where you could interact withsomebody in a in a kind of
sexual way.
So I suppose a forebearer ofthe current AI bots that you can
(03:26):
interact with. AI.
Leon Goltsman (03:28):
I read about that in the book once.
So I'm about to ask you aboutchaos, and you've um you've just
put some images into my mind.
So I was gonna say, what doesit actually look like?
Don't answer that.
Zina Kaye (03:47):
But um it was very old tech, so there are lots of
menus and clicking and then justwaiting for things to load, and
that's where that innovationcame was like to try and reduce
the load time by innovating incompression, and then that got
you know circulated to othertechnologies.
Leon Goltsman (04:04):
I mean, I've heard that things start off
because of um because ofmilitary, because of war.
But yeah, okay, okay, that's aninteresting one.
Uh I'm sure that would havecaused a lot of chaos as well,
somewhere.
Zina Kaye (04:20):
Well, um, yes, I'm the kind of person that's not
afraid to go in any directionwith ideas.
You know, I just I enjoyinnovating and delivering value.
So I remember when I was doingmy MBA, we were doing a case
study for speciality fashiongriff, and it was around the
time that Shades of Grey cameout, and I could see that there
(04:42):
was, you know, this beginningmarket in uh or an increased
market in sex toys and thingslike that.
So whilst all my compadressuggested things like joint
ventures and shaving off a fewcents in the production, I said
you've got the biggest databaseof women in Australia.
(05:03):
Why don't you discreetly sellthem online sex toys?
And they did.
They went with that idea.
Leon Goltsman (05:10):
Okay.
Well, you've certainly embraceduncertainty into a profitable
business.
Zina Kaye (05:19):
Yes, I am a sought-after consultant.
I'm still working withinnovative technologies more and
more, I think, at scale.
So neo-banking, hydrogenstorage.
It is a it is profitable tohave that history and knowledge
and understand how things playout and what what innovation and
(05:41):
the uncertainty of innovationlooks like and you know having
that having that experience thatyou can bring to a team.
Leon Goltsman (05:48):
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of um a lot of people, like
the most of us, uh, how wouldyou recommend that they turn
uncertainty into creativityrather than just fear?
Because obviously fear holdspeople back.
Zina Kaye (06:02):
Ooh, that's a really good question.
Um I think there are three waysthat people can turn
uncertainty into certainty.
And the first one is at anorganizational level.
So when you when you bringpeople through exercises where
(06:22):
they can speak their mind and beopen about their fears.
This was actually a methodologythat was pioneered in uh the
British banking system, thenpeople can move forward because
they have been open about whatscares them, about what's going
(06:43):
to go on.
It's a bit like when you whenyou when you put your fears on
the table, when you shine lighton them, there's they they
become less less interesting, oryou can have a plan to deal
with them.
The second thing aboutuncertainty is doing small
experiments to see if thingswork.
So with Holly, we've oftencollaborated with people who
have an idea and they don't knowwhether it's going to work out.
(07:06):
And so we do little websites orlittle demo products, take it
to market, take it to people inthe value chain and test it out.
And that is a really great wayto know if you've got something
there and then develop it.
Leon Goltsman (07:22):
So it's kind of like a catalyst for something
that might eventually becomeremarkable.
Zina Kaye (07:27):
Yes, so that's true, that's true.
It can be a catalyst forsomething that's remarkable.
I think when you're reallyuncertain and you you know that
there is a a market there or youcan see it, but you you want to
you you're just kind of on thecusp and you've really got to
kind of um bring it out of yourback pocket as it were, then I
(07:49):
always have the kind of rec rockand roll method of innovation,
which is to try and pair it withsomething completely different.
So it's kind of like like doinga cookbook, going, okay, well,
here is this product or service,but I'm gonna do 10 completely
surreal couplings with that ideaand try and work out if that
(08:10):
tells me anything.
That's the that's the kind ofrock and roll fun version.
Leon Goltsman (08:14):
So it's it's kind of like many breakthroughs have
started from something thatfailed once, potentially.
Zina Kaye (08:21):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
I think I mean I I I reallyenjoy looking at failure and I
really enjoy talking to peoplewho failed and turned into
turned into something else.
So Australia produced thisfantastic rocket that was tested
in a Nordic country and itexploded immediately.
And we've and we've actuallyjust had um another rocket
(08:42):
that's just exploded in the uhQueensland.
Leon Goltsman (08:45):
I hope they're not using it to transport people
anytime soon.
Because if it's exploding, Idon't want to be on that rocket.
Zina Kaye (08:51):
Well, no, these are all these are all tests, they're
these are all tests.
Leon Goltsman (08:54):
Okay, okay.
Zina Kaye (08:55):
And and the idea is that you know there's gonna be a
certain amount of failure, soyou you put that in the budget,
but you make sure that you'vegot lots of documentation and
you're really learning fromfailure, and that's where
failure is actually just a verysimilar analogue to how many
no's to yes.
Leon Goltsman (09:12):
So, why do you believe there's no such thing as
a bad idea?
I mean, I'm gonna ask you.
No, no, I'm gonna ask youagain, you know, maybe I'll word
it slightly differently.
How how would you see yourselfhelping people uh see the
potential hidden insidesomething that initially looks
impossible?
Zina Kaye (09:30):
Well, I've got an example for you, and I think it
proves that adage that there'sno such thing as a bad idea.
So I could see that there wassomething there about using
unmanned technology to look atthe landscape, you know, look
look from up to down.
And I was tooling around withsome guys at a conference called
(09:53):
Ars Electronica in Austria.
They were from Holland and wewere just sort of sitting there
sketching things out on a napkinone night, and I said, okay,
I'll go and try and get thisfunded and see if we can build
it.
And at that point, we wereusing kind of off-the-rack
technology for navigating Mylarballoons inside.
(10:13):
But it was all very flimsy, andeven though I could write the
interface to control that, Ididn't have a very broad use
case because it was a tiny spacethat it could be used in.
And I discovered that throughdoing little experiments, you
know, buying the technology,trying it out in a big space,
losing control of the balloon,smashing up the flimsy plastic
technology, and then trying towork out how I would do this at
(10:36):
a larger scale.
So in the end, I built anunmanned autonomous vehicle, a
giant aeroplane.
Model aeroplane.
Leon Goltsman (10:45):
You built it.
Zina Kaye (10:46):
Yes, with with some with people.
With people.
Bob Young from Silver ToneElectronics and another guy
called Barry Ming who helpedbuild the model.
Um, people from the artscommunity here, people from uh
the telco community.
And we built this aeroplanewhich had a boxer engine and a
(11:06):
three-meter wingspan and couldbe flown around.
Leon Goltsman (11:10):
Boxer engine is in from a Porsche.
Zina Kaye (11:12):
Uh no, it's a it's a type of engine, it's like a
symmetrical engine.
Okay.
Symmetrical modern airplaneengine.
Leon Goltsman (11:17):
Okay.
Zina Kaye (11:18):
Yeah.
We built this uh aeroplane, andwe were at the time we were
kind of in competition with auniversity project that was
funded by British Aerospace, andwe got our plane in the sky
before they did.
Wow.
Just because we farted aroundand did little experiments and
well it reminds me of the Wrightbrothers, you know.
Leon Goltsman (11:39):
There was a uh a conference, all these professors
and doctors and um engineersand whoever, or whoever these
people are, they're meant to beexperts and they scientists, and
they've got together and theysaid, there is absolutely no way
a person will be able to fly.
It's just impossible.
But as they were saying at thatparticular time, too, bicycle
(11:59):
mechanics, Wilbur and Orvin,they were flying.
Yep.
So you just don't know what'sgoing on.
Yes, people have to believe,don't they?
Zina Kaye (12:08):
Yes, they do, they do.
And I think also it's not onlythat people have to believe, but
also um people, um, if you'vegot a roadmap, even if it's not
the correct roadmap, it's stilla map that's gonna take you so
somewhere.
Yeah, and then as humans we doa bit of correction.
We can't help it.
Leon Goltsman (12:26):
So Zena, your work sits at the intersection of
technology, innovation, andhumanity.
And I mean humanity is a is animportant one because that's
kind of how you and I met.
And it's not just gadgets anddata.
So, how do you make technologyhuman again so that it serves
people rather than overwhelmsthem?
Zina Kaye (12:45):
So I come from the world of human experience using
computers.
Leon Goltsman (12:53):
So we and that's what we started off on.
Zina Kaye (12:56):
That's what we started off on.
Leon Goltsman (12:57):
But we evolved somewhere else now.
Zina Kaye (12:59):
So um, which um and that that has turned into
service design, which means thaton one hand uh we build things
that are which have a techinterface and a huge back end or
click into other things, andthen at some point a human is
using this and and they're alsousing offline things, and that's
(13:20):
been very much the philosophyof Holly Sydney.
So one of the earliest clientsof ours was um Sydney Dance
Company, and we built them a newwebsite and and created their
first archive of all the postersand images that they had and
all the ephemera of all the ofall the ballets that they put
on, and then they had thisproblem where they wanted to
(13:43):
sell more tickets, and we put ina bridge to a ticket selling
website, and I also said, butyou also need to put some paper
signs up in your dance classesbecause that's you know, you
have so much throughput ofpeople in those dance classes.
If you put ticket sales upthere, then you're gonna sell
(14:04):
tickets there, and they did, ofcourse.
Leon Goltsman (14:06):
You know, it's a good thing they listened to you.
Zina Kaye (14:08):
Yeah, they made an awful amount of money that year.
Huge.
So when I think about solvingproblems uh or building systems
for banks, uh museums, um,property companies, I'm always
thinking about making it thebest experience for the human,
(14:28):
not using technology justbecause it's fashionable, and I
hope this word's okay, and andnot kind of pandering to end
shittification, which is thatidea of putting in technology
that just makes people's livesworse, like AI chatbots, for
example, for technical.
Leon Goltsman (14:45):
Well, a lot of them I think they're taking the
Mickey out of people because thetechnology it makes people feel
like they're smart, but that'sthe danger because smart people
don't feel that way.
Smart people are always wantingto learn more.
They admit that they don't knoweverything.
That suddenly you've got thistool, but you've got this
platform, and it tells you howsmart you are.
(15:07):
It's literally peeing insomeone's pocket and telling
them how unreal they are, andagrees with them.
And so they walk away feelinglike they're so smart and that's
dangerous.
Zina Kaye (15:18):
It is, it is.
Leon Goltsman (15:18):
That's dangerous.
But you have helped governmentstartups and even sceptics
navigate innovation, and you'vegot a good knack for that.
Zina, what's the most commonbarrier you see holding leaders
back from embracing new ideas?
Zina Kaye (15:32):
I think the most common barrier I see for leaders
to embrace new ideas isheuristics.
So I I think that people have avision of what something will
be like, they'll have um ashared understanding around what
will be approved, and thenthat's it, you know, and that
(15:53):
and that doesn't allow them tothink beyond that.
Leon Goltsman (15:57):
So they're kind of putting themselves in a box.
Zina Kaye (16:00):
Yeah, basically.
So what I try and do is umobviously run workshops, mentor
people to think outside the box.
At the moment, a lot of myfocus is on how we're going to
work with our humans and notretrench them, not replace them
by technology because like we'regonna end up in a position
(16:23):
where we don't have anyconsumers.
Leon Goltsman (16:25):
Yeah, but but the thing is technology is a great
thing because I just think thatpeople are using it wrong.
Technology is a great way toimprove productivity.
When I say that, yeah, I meansometimes the tedious tasks are
the important ones.
Yeah.
It's not what you come up with,it's how you got there.
Zina Kaye (16:44):
Yes.
I absolutely, I absolutelyagree with you, but there's
something really key here, whichis if you if you've got that
heuristic and you haven't donethe research first, then you're
often building something whichdoesn't answer the problem.
So let me give you an example.
I was working with a companythat really wanted to put in a
(17:06):
CRM, and basically we looked atthe the value chain and the the
service map of how people track,you know, touch point the
various points of the businessand what they want.
And so they were dead set oncollecting people's details,
whereas all people wanted to dowas pay their bills online.
(17:26):
That's all they wanted to do,and then like download some data
occasionally for you knowcalendars, timetables, things
like that.
But the the heuristic at theboard level was oh, we we need a
CRM, people want uh wantcustomized emails basically that
tell them that we care aboutthem.
But that's not what they careabout.
Leon Goltsman (17:47):
No, no, that's right.
It just goes to show thatpeople aren't listening, they
think they know everything.
Zina Kaye (17:52):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (17:53):
Jamming their products and services down
people's throats.
Zina Kaye (17:57):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (17:57):
And that's what what we're seeing a lot of.
Zina Kaye (17:59):
Yes, I mean that unfortunately that's business,
is that you you productize orservice ize a business and then
you you it's easy to sell in aparticular way, sort of seems to
solve a problem, but doesn't.
You know, in in this case, it'slike selling snake oil.
Leon Goltsman (18:17):
It seems to solve the problem at the time.
When you see companies thatactually have done well and
succeeded, yeah, it's notbecause they're trying to sell.
They're not the sellers.
They're they're they understandpeople's problems.
Zina Kaye (18:34):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (18:35):
I think that that's where it all should
start.
Understanding why we do what wedo.
Zina Kaye (18:40):
Yeah.
I mean, ultimately, like youand I, people don't want to be
machines serving the uh, forexample, LinkedIn machine, the
whole kind of human resourcesthing.
I've got to change my resumeagain so that the machine will
analyse it correctly this time.
And I'm trying, I really wantto get into that sorting hat.
How is that making lives moreproductive?
Leon Goltsman (19:02):
Well, it's not.
As soon as people say I've gotto do this, they've lost power.
Yeah.
You know, I I've been insituations where I spend a lot
of time in regional parts of NewSouth Wales.
Yeah.
And I travel where I where Iwant to go and how I want to go,
most of the time, anyway.
Uh and if I do end up coming toa meeting or particular
(19:23):
appointment or doing somethingthat other people may not want
to do, people say to me, Oh,you've got it, you're here
because you you have to.
Zina Kaye (19:31):
Yes.
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (19:32):
No, I don't.
If I don't want to go there, Idon't come.
Zina Kaye (19:34):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (19:35):
I don't turn up.
And that's because I've got theability to choose.
That's empowering.
Zina Kaye (19:39):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (19:40):
And and people don't have to try and please all
these people on social mediathat they don't even know.
People are bragging, they'regoing, oh, I've got 30,000
followers.
Well, guess what?
These 30,000 people could be abunch of dodos for all I know.
How many of them actually spentmoney with you?
Yes.
How many of them actually madeyour life better?
Zina Kaye (19:58):
Yep, totally.
Leon Goltsman (19:58):
Instead, what they've done is they've taken up
your precious time, yeah, tryand please people you don't
know.
Yes.
And I think what's important isI'd rather have one or two real
connections and knowing thatI'm everything to those people
rather than a little bit ofsomething to everybody.
Zina Kaye (20:16):
Yes, yes, yes.
I I I'm with you there.
Leon Goltsman (20:19):
Well, and if anyone would know how to serve
the very people that yourepresent, it would be you.
Because you do serve onmultiple boards, from University
of New South Wales to Anawims.
Do you decide that right?
Zina Kaye (20:35):
The Anuwim, yeah.
Leon Goltsman (20:35):
Anawim.
Where innovation meetscompassion.
What does innovation from theheart mean to you?
Zina Kaye (20:40):
That innovation with a heart is just the should be
the catch-cry for our century,really, shouldn't it?
Because we've got so many greatideas and and we've got really
passionate people and and peoplewant to do something, and so
let's put the two together.
So Anawim is a charity thattakes people out to lunch.
(21:01):
We're solving the problem ofloneliness, and I suppose not
feeling like you're at thetable, being unseen, not feeling
like you have a voice, thatyou're worthy.
So we take groups out likeWayside Chapel, Northern Beaches
(21:23):
Women's Shelter, the BurdekinGroup, Southeastern Community
Connect, and take them out tolunch, have a sit-down meal, and
chat, let them relax, let thembe served, have fine food, and
and be a different version ofthemselves.
Leon Goltsman (21:43):
So people can be a different version of
themselves, but it's the versionthey want to be.
It's maybe it's the realversion of themselves that
they've been suppressing becausethey didn't feel comfortable
they could.
When you think about that.
Zina Kaye (21:56):
I I totally agree.
I think that people do suppressthat that um that version of
themselves because they are downon themselves.
You know, they're they're in akind of mental uh construct.
Um but also having said that, alot of our guests have come
(22:17):
from a place where they haven'tfelt safe or they just really
are trying to, they're in aperiod of great change, maybe
they've left a relationship witha child, they don't have that
network in place.
So our lunches also allow thiskind of intergenerational
meeting so people can, you know,maybe find that babysitter or
(22:40):
talk to young people and notfeel like they're just kind of
locked in their own bubble.
Because we kind of are beingseparated out in society, aren't
we?
Leon Goltsman (22:49):
I don't think so much separated out.
I would probably describe it asmore closing ourselves in.
Zina Kaye (22:56):
Mmm, yes, yeah, yeah, no, I see what you mean there,
yes.
Leon Goltsman (23:00):
Yeah, because all this technology is meant to
bring us closer to each other,really.
Zina Kaye (23:06):
Yes, yeah.
Leon Goltsman (23:07):
But what it does is does the complete opposite.
We'd lose this, people losethat human interaction.
Zina Kaye (23:13):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (23:14):
I've seen personal experiences where
people are no longer picking upthe phone and reaching out
anymore.
It's all emails.
Yes.
And the problem with that is,and I'm not gonna talk about the
the conversations I have withmy staff, but I could tell you
that when we have an event orwhen we do something, I'll pick
up the phone and call people.
And if there's 150 of them,I'll call at least at least half
(23:39):
of those people.
Zina Kaye (23:40):
Yep, yeah.
Leon Goltsman (23:40):
Some I'll send a message because I I don't want
to talk to them.
No, I'm kidding.
I'll talk to them.
I apologize to anyone who gotwho've gone to my events who
didn't get a call from me.
I promise you I love you.
Zina Kaye (23:57):
You just ran out of time on the call list.
Leon Goltsman (24:00):
Chatting away.
Zina Kaye (24:01):
How's it going?
Oh, you know, let me tell youabout it.
Leon Goltsman (24:04):
Well, they could have called me, you know.
No, they usually do, no.
We can joke about it, andthat's how you know you're on
good terms with people.
Zina Kaye (24:12):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Leon Goltsman (24:13):
They're still in your phone book.
Zina Kaye (24:15):
Yes, yeah, yeah, no, totally.
Um, well, I do think that oneof the one of the barriers to
entry though is how we present.
So there are a lot of peoplethat turn up to the lunches in
their best clothes, which theymight have sort of cobbled
together in a way.
You know, a lot I talk topeople a bit about about um,
(24:37):
particularly people who comeearly to lunch, you know, I ask
them how they got here, whatthey've been doing that day.
We've got a lot of people whodon't have teeth, who don't have
their front teeth, because withhomelessness, there's a there's
a lot of violence and they'llhave lost their teeth and then
not being able to get more teethuntil they've kind of finished
(24:58):
programs, or or they don't eventhey might have a voucher to get
more teeth, but they don't feelcomfortable enough to to get
teeth.
Leon Goltsman (25:06):
And that would affect and that would probably
affect the way that they smileor don't smile.
Zina Kaye (25:11):
Well, or even that they won don't want to come to
lunch with other people becausethey don't want to be seen to be
kind of spitting, yeah, youknow.
Um anyway, I try and I try andimmediately make people feel
incredibly comfortable aboutthat because you know everybody
should be there and have a goodtime.
I have the best conversationswith our guests, I really do.
Leon Goltsman (25:33):
Well, I can see why.
I don't think there's there's atopic you can't turn into an
innovative discussion.
Zina Kaye (25:41):
Well, and also, I mean, it we make a lot of
assumptions about people and uhsocioeconomically and then what
they read and understand.
Some of the most interestingconversations about ChatGPT I've
had have been with our guests,you know, from Wayside or from
Southeastern Community Connect,who um are observing people use
(26:02):
this technology with um the eyeof an anthropologist and Riley
noticing how the good and thebad, I suppose.
Leon Goltsman (26:11):
Well, one of the things you're a um a warrior on
Zina Warrior Princess.
Zina damn you've used that onebefore, haven't you?
Zina Kaye (26:20):
I have.
People used to go down thecorridor and at AGSM.
Leon Goltsman (26:26):
Do they still do that?
Zina Kaye (26:27):
Yes, they're one or two that they're doing.
Leon Goltsman (26:29):
Okay, I'm sure after people listen to this
program, you'll probably get afew more.
Zina Kaye (26:33):
Yeah.
Leon Goltsman (26:33):
Especially if you come to a networking event.
If they don't, I will.
So you you've you've been anadvocate for climate adaptation,
especially for chillax people.
Why do you believemodernization and cultural
diversity might be the key tosolving our biggest
environmental challenges?
Zina Kaye (26:51):
Oh that that's an interesting question.
Hmm.
I mean, let me break that downinto two parts.
Leon Goltsman (26:58):
So the first thing is That's how politicians
answer questions.
You ask them one thing, they'llbreak it down, they'll give you
an answer, and it's got nothingto do with the question.
Zina Kaye (27:07):
Well, it's just chillaxed modernization,
diversity.
They're three, you know, wordsthat you know need a bit of
weaving, don't they?
Leon Goltsman (27:17):
Yep, that's exactly what they say.
Zina Kaye (27:21):
So um, you know, environmentalism and climate
adaptation for chillax peoplemeans we all really enjoy our
lives, we enjoy our our creaturecomforts, we have an
extraordinary level of lifestylehere in Australia, and I don't
want to separate anybody fromtheir from their aeroplane rides
(27:43):
or their stake or whatever itis, you know.
I don't I don't think we needto do that.
But one uh thing that I dothink that we can do, for
example, is take uh take anexample from permaculture and
not mow our grass shorter than10 centimetres.
Because then, you know, thatcreates a um micro climate which
(28:07):
traps carbon and so on and soforth, has multiple benefits.
And you know, that it's it'sall these small changes that we
can do, and then but you don'thave to do anything, it's like a
set and forget, you know.
It's like it's like watering inground, having having a bit of
plumbing tube that goes intoyour garden bed where you put
your scraps is much easier andcheaper than sending it
(28:31):
somewhere else.
Leon Goltsman (28:32):
And usually they send our recycled waste by
trains and other transport thatuses fuel.
Go figure, the hypocrisy.
Yes.
And people buy into that.
Zina Kaye (28:41):
Yes.
I was actually um complainingto my to my younger son uh
yesterday as he put a tin inthe, you know, tin tomatoes in
the main rubbish, and I said,well, council has to pay more to
separate that out.
So just with modernisation, soum I did propose to Waverly
Council to be thinker inresidence and do these
(29:02):
projection artworks for thelaunch of Fogo to basically
represent rubbish and greenwaste and and food waste in a
really beautiful way using umusing photography to and
projection at night um on someof our kind of monuments.
That's fantastic.
Yeah, I think.
Leon Goltsman (29:20):
What a great idea.
Zina Kaye (29:21):
I know it is.
I didn't get I didn't get thethinker in residence, but I
still would really like to.
Leon Goltsman (29:25):
Just about it, it's still it's it's the
process.
Zina Kaye (29:27):
Yes.
Leon Goltsman (29:28):
But if we try sometime, we can get what we
need.
That's it.
So uh Zina, always a pleasureto talk to you.
And one of the things is thatyou inspired so many to find
courage in experimentation andplayfulness.
For listeners who feel stuck orafraid of failure, what is the
first step that they can take toturn curiosity into
(29:50):
contribution?
Zina Kaye (29:52):
Ooh.
If people uh want to um use,you know, like use their
curiosity.
Do some experimentation, thendoing it within your community
often is a great place to start.
Whatever community you belongto, there are always problems to
solve.
And that curiosity starts withasking questions around what
(30:15):
problems need to be solved.
But just start with somethingclose to your heart and grow it
from there.
Leon Goltsman (30:20):
Well, that is some really good advice there.
Zina, I've really enjoyed thisconversation.
I'm sure a lot of people aregonna love listening to it and
they're gonna want to learnmore.
If anyone wants to connect withyou, what is the best way for
them to contact you?
Zina Kaye (30:34):
So thank you so much, Leon.
I've just had the best time andyou're a lot of fun, and I hope
that we uh maybe get to doanother episode over cake
perhaps or or something.
Um cake.
Leon Goltsman (30:46):
Did you say cake?
Zina Kaye (30:49):
So if people want to find me, I'm on LinkedIn, Zina
Kaye.
I have a little website calledGrowth Dynamics, and I'm on
Twitter at Zina Kaye.
And uh you can find me at HollySydney as well.
Leon Goltsman (31:03):
Um I'm gonna have all those things in the show
notes as well.
So you don't have to rush andget a pen, those people
listening, and then um and thenafter click below, and then
click below, all the informationwill be there.
Zina, thank you so much.
It's really good.
(31:24):
Thank you.
Zina Kaye (31:24):
Please like and subscribe, Leon.
Leon Goltsman (31:26):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
That was fantastic.
Zina Kaye (31:30):
Thank you so much, Leon.
Leon Goltsman (31:32):
Now that was a conversation bursting with
creativity, courage, and chaosin the best possible way.
Zina Kaye reminds us thatinnovation doesn't just happen
in straight lines.
It's messy, unpredictable, andoften born from the ideas we're
told won't work.
But as Zina clearly shows us,when we stay curious, play with
(31:54):
possibilities, and dare toexperiment, we open the door to
breakthroughs that can and oftendo change everything.
If there's one thing to takeaway from today's conversation,
it's this.
Don't silence the noise.
I'm gonna repeat that again.
Don't silence the noise.
Because whether it's thelaughter of the kids in the
background or the spark of awild idea, sometimes the things
(32:17):
we overlook are exactly whatmakes life and innovation
meaningful.
A huge thank you once again toNepean Advanced Rehab and Allied
Health Center, where every dayis about empowering movement and
restoring life.
And of course, Niaz Cannoth forhis ongoing support of good
people doing great things andfor helping amplify the voices
of those making a realdifference.
(32:39):
If today's episode made yousmile, sparked an idea, or
challenged how you think, shareit with someone ready to embrace
a little chaos and curiosity intheir own life.
I'm Leon Goltsman and this hasbeen Engaging Conversations
where purpose meets people.
And until next time, staycurious, stay connected, and
let's continue doing greatthings together.
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