December 17, 2024 • 49 mins
How do you reduce urgency in a world where urgency is so deeply embedded? How do you market yourself and your work in a way that is anti-oppressive?
We're continuing in our mini-series on my calmer framework for a calmer business. This week, we're focused on reudcing urgency and techniques for anti-oppressive marketing.
We're joined by Natalia Sanyal, an anti-oppressive copywriter and brand messaging strategist. She’s worked with billion-dollar businesses like Apple and Lululemon, New York Times bestselling authors like Layla Saad & Deepak Chopra, and award-winning marketing agencies. Now, she teaches high-integrity personal brands to use marketing as a force for good so they can sell better and harm less.
On this episode, we learn some techniques to reduce urgency in our work, align actions with values to foster a calmer atmosphere for you, your team, and your business.
Listen to the Full Episode to Hear:
- How can you move away from the default urgency-driven model?
- How can you reduce client emergencies and create more flexibility?
- What are the real-world applications of aligning business actions with values?
- How does embracing vulnerability play into the human aspects of entrepreneurship?
Learn more about Natalia Sanyal
Learn more about me, Susan Boles:
We value your thoughts and feedback. Feel free to share them with Susan here. Your input is not just valuable, it's crucial in shaping future episodes.
- (00:00) - Introduction to Human-Centered Entrepreneurship
- (00:55) - The Elements of a Calm Business
- (01:40) - Reducing Urgency in Business
- (03:03) - Anti-Oppressive Marketing with Natalia Sanal
- (24:51) - Embracing Anti-Oppressive Marketing
- (26:20) - Taking the Leap: Transitioning to Value-Aligned Clients
- (31:19) - Deconstructing Urgency in Business
- (37:01) - Building a Calmer, Sustainable Business
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Susan Boles (00:00):
Hey, Susan here. Before we get into the episode,
I wanted to give you just aquick heads up that our audio
setup wasn't ideal for thisepisode, but the conversation is
so great. I hope you'll tune inand bear with us that the audio
quality isn't quite up to ourusual standard. You can also
read the transcript linked inthe show notes if you prefer.
(00:21):
Alright.
Onto the show.
Natalia Sanyal (00:22):
I think, like, just being more open about us
being human beings. Like, Idon't feel like we let ourselves
be human. As entrepreneurs, wefeel like we have to be this,
like, super professional. Wehave it all together. All our
ducks in a row.
Whereas, like, I think peoplerespond really well to just the
opposite.
Susan Boles (00:44):
Urgency is the enemy of calm. In order to
design and build a calmbusiness, you have to
consistently and consciouslyreduce urgency. Hi there. I'm
Susan Bowles, and this is BeyondMargins, a show where we
deconstruct how to engineer acalmer business. We're wrapping
up a mini series where we'vebeen examining the common
(01:06):
elements of a calm business.
Calm businesses don't happen byaccident. They have to be
intentionally designed that way.And assuming that's the case,
then the question reallybecomes, how do you actually do
that? How do you engineer calm?If you haven't listened to the
rest of the series, I highlyrecommend you head back to the
(01:27):
beginning to catch up.
We've covered clarity, autonomy,care, margins, efficient
systems, and rest. These are thecommon elements that are
critical to engineer a calmerbusiness. Today, we're wrapping
it up talking about the finalelement, reducing urgency. But
we're also gonna talk about thereal world application of all of
(01:50):
these elements because theseconcepts are great in theory,
but what does it look like inpractice to really align your
actions with those values?Because having an intention to
run a calm business is onething, but you have to take
action.
You have to put those elementsinto practice to make it become
reality. When it comes tobuilding a calmer business, it's
(02:12):
really important to realize thatthe enemy of calm is urgency.
When you feel like you have torush around and everything is an
emergency, it's not possible forthings to be calm. So in order
to create that calm, you have toconsciously reduce urgency. You
have to learn to slow thingsdown.
Learn to cultivate somepatience. But that's not the
(02:35):
default. That's not what we'retrained to do. We're supposed to
move fast and break things.We're supposed to grow at all
costs.
We're supposed to usemanipulative marketing tactics
to make the sale because we'vegotta grow. But what if instead
of that, we slowed down? What ifwe thought about the impact of
running our businesses that wayand then we changed our actions
(02:57):
to align with what we actuallybelieved instead of what we're
supposed to do? My guest todayis the perfect example of that.
Natalia Sanyal is a smart savvymarketer.
She's worked with $1,000,000,000big name businesses like Apple
and Lululemon. But as you'llhear her talk about, she didn't
(03:17):
wanna do things the way she wassupposed to anymore. She wanted
to use her powers for goodinstead of for evil. So now
she's an anti oppressivecopywriter and brand messaging
strategist. She teaches highintegrity personal brands
including my own to usemarketing as a force for good so
that they can sell better andharm less.
(03:38):
We'll talk about what antioppressive marketing is and how
you can use it to make your ownmarketing less harmful both to
yourself and to the world. We'llcover what happened in her
business when she took the leapto align her marketing with her
values. And we're also gonna getinto deconstructing urgency.
Both from an ethical marketingperspective, but just generally
(04:00):
how to reduce urgency in yourown business. So you describe
yourself as an anti oppressivemarketer.
Natalia Sanyal (04:12):
To me, I'd interpret that to mean that
marketing by default isinherently oppressive. Yeah. I
do think that that is the caseand it's pretty accurate. I like
to ask this question every nowand then on LinkedIn, and it's
actually even on my, like, optin form. I put it everywhere.
Can I ask people who are mycustomers or, in my audience how
(04:34):
it feels to market themselves?And, like, 90% of the time, the
answers are so heavy and reallynegative. Like, people will say
it feels dangerous. It feelsblimey. It feels like
unnecessary evil or not valuesaligned is one, like, throws
that a lot.
And so, like, why are peoplefeeling this way? I think it's
(04:55):
people don't, a, hate marketers.They don't trust the us. They
don't trust the marketers. Sowhen they have to do it for
themselves, like, you know,entrepreneurs, personal is it
feels really gross.
So why is it that marketing hasthis impact on consumers and I'd
say humanity first businesses? Ithink it's because the the past
(05:20):
state of marketing and thecurrent state of marketing is
built around this belief thatthe revenue justifies the needs.
And so we end up doing all thetactics and strategies that
really end up harming humanityin the process. But it is
effective and it makes us money.That's where it's like it's
(05:42):
really tricky.
And I agree with it beingdangerous in that sense because
it is effective as far asrevenue. But in that process, we
are hurting ourselves, and weare hurting our people. I see it
as a problem in the way that wehave always done it, and, and
I'm seeing a shift as well atthe same time. I'd say the
(06:04):
biggest shift happened in 2020.Brands were, like, super
conscious of the impact thattheir marketing was having on
people because people weregetting really loud and public
about how they felt aboutcorporate branding, marketing
tactics, and, you know, thelanguages that they were using.
So now brands are payingattention, and 80% of consumers
(06:27):
purchase from companies thatthey feel are aligned with their
values. That gives me hope forantidepressant marketing. That
marketing is changing andcompanies are kind of being
forced
Susan Boles (06:37):
to do that. Do you think that's still the case?
There was that, like, big bumpin 2020 where we were all at
home and George Floyd and thatwas followed by the, like, hot
labor, all the strikes summer.Like, we've had a lot of years
where that I I think was reallyvisible. And I'm wondering if
(06:58):
you're seeing sort of a shift alittle bit in the opposite
direction.
Natalia Sanyal (07:03):
I know that that is the case for DEI and, right,
my work is very tied into DEI,diversity, equity, inclusion. At
the same time, I find that it isstill the case that people are
not willing to support companieswhere their values don't align
(07:23):
with what's going on inPalestine and a lot of the
boycotts. Like, that's still thecase. That's still how people
are willing to align their moneyeven with the the, politicians
and the elections that arecoming up and the companies that
are supporting the differentpoliticians. I think it it
definitely had, like, a hugeburst in 2020, and it has kind
(07:47):
of calmed down a little bit.
Susan Boles (07:49):
I guess when you're thinking about in terms of,
like, boycotts and people beingreally passionate about where
they are or aren't spendingtheir money, you're right. It is
actually really effective. TheStarbucks boycott did actually
tank their revenue and theKellogg's boycott earlier this
year did actually have a prettysignificant impact as well. So I
think I feel like from the bigcompany perspective down, they
(08:13):
feel like they can get away withnot being as proactive about it.
But from the consumerperspective, I think there's a
lot more collective actionhappening.
Yeah. So that stuff is stillhappening, which is great. So we
are of the mind that we shouldbe acting and using our
(08:34):
marketing in accordance with ourvalues that consumers will
actually buy according to thosevalues for the most part. But
what are the problems thatactually come from that default
marketing approach? From thatgrowth at all costs, you know,
the revenue makes all actionsworth it kind of modeled.
Natalia Sanyal (08:55):
The for example, there's maybe you know about
this copyright infringement.It's super popular and commonly
taught. It's called the PASframework. FAB stands for
problem, agitate solution. So inthat framework, we are taught to
write our copy in that formatwhere we first take the problem
and then we agitate where wherethe copy is designed to evoke
(09:19):
emotions of shame and even,like, trigger trauma and
desperation so that after theyfeel that way, you present the
solution, and they are desperateto buy.
It's just a lot easier to sellwhen someone is in that really
volatile state that causespsychological damage, to the
consumers. Then there's thefinancial damage that it can
(09:43):
cause for people becausemarketing, typically, it's
changing, but we got away with alot without consent. Now even
nowadays, it's very common forI'll agree to, like, a a network
will call just a friendly chatwith somebody. And after the
chat, I am automatically addedto their mailing list, which was
(10:04):
not the intention of connectingwith them. It had, like I never
opted in, but it happens quiteoften.
Another one is, like, fastaction bonuses that happen at
the end of webinars where peopleon the webinar have no idea that
they're even gonna be sold to.And then at the end of the
webinar, they've got, like, 20minutes to make a decision and
(10:26):
get this fast action bonus whereit does require, like, a
significant investment. It's notrequired to see, investments be,
like, 4 figure, 5 figureinvestment, and they give you 20
minutes to make that decision.So people who are in that state
of, like, you know, the wholewebinar is kinda set up for that
moment, and they are excited.They do not have time to check
(10:47):
if this is actually a gooddecision for their bank accounts
or all the things you have toconsider before making an
investment like that.
You don't have time, but fastaction bonuses are very
effective. So that will causesignificant financial damage
depending on, you know, theperson's state of viruses in
(11:08):
that moment when they make thatdecision. You will see companies
like the Walmart Juneteenth icecream that they released in
2019. No. They released aJuneteenth ice cream flavor.
So that was one that, likesocial media just tore them
down, and they had to release apublic apology. But that's a
(11:31):
classic example of exploitingthe suffering of marginalized
people. Walmart is obviouslyhuge, but I see smaller examples
of that in my inbox all thetime. In Canada, we have
Indigenous Peoples Day on June21st. I'll get a lot of
Indigenous people's day discountfor things like spas.
(11:53):
Have nothing to do withanything, but it's a they think
that's, like, a great marketingstrategy. And if you're
listening to this and thinkinglike, oh, crap. I've done, like,
all of those things. It's okay.I have done, honestly, most of
those things too in my marketingcareer because it's what we've
been taught is this is business.
This is marketing. And I didn'teven think I could talk about
(12:16):
this because I have done all thethings before. But I talk about
it now because I I don't wantShane to get in the way of,
like, moving forward. But once aweek, I will find myself doing
something that like, on auto,that is the opposite of what I
am teaching in artisticmarketing. I'll give you an
(12:38):
example.
I have an offer where it's,like, templates. I sell my
templates. I lay to my postsometime. So in that week, I had
given a template where I put ina post a free post of somebody
else's post. So in thattemplate, I shared the original
post, and I named the the personwhose post it was.
(12:58):
But I had to ask for thatperson's permission. And I
realized that after the fact.And it was one of those moments
which I was so familiar with.Like, oh, lord. And I didn't get
it.
I'm making money off this andthen keeping that person as
example, which that person whowrote that post, not for me to
use in Paydock. So I had toreach out to them and ask them
(13:20):
and apologize. And I think that,like, it's important for me to
share these names because wewe're gonna mess up. We're gonna
catch ourselves doing thesethings all the time, and then we
need to be able to be okay withthat and apologize and then
correct, of course. Yeah.
Learn from it.
Susan Boles (13:40):
Well, I also think, you know, so much of what you're
doing, both on the marketingstandpoint but also from the
anti oppressive standpoint, somuch of this is so deeply and
unconsciously ingrained. It isreally, really hard sometimes to
be able to step back from it andlook and see even if you're
(14:03):
really well versed on antioppressive practices and you're
really keeping it in mind in thesame way, you know, you
mentioned that, like, you'vedone all of the marketing
things. Me too. Especially atthe beginning when you are
starting a business, That's whenyou are most easily preyed on by
(14:23):
the standard marketers. That'swho they're targeting.
You don't know that there'ssomething else. You assume that
this is just the way business isdone, and you end up in this,
like, box that you don't reallysee that you're in a box.
Marketing is one of those placeswhere I think it's most
prevalent in our businesses.There are a lot of other places
where we're a little bit moreopen, I think, to different
(14:47):
techniques or different tacticsor trying something in a new way
because it doesn't feel as tiedto revenue or as tied to, you
know, things that are notinsignificant. Like, we're
running businesses to feedourselves, to feed and support
our families.
And, like, that's that's notmade up. And that's where it
(15:10):
gets tricky. They're like,that's a challenge for me. And I
Natalia Sanyal (15:13):
get faced with this question quite often where
it's like, okay. I love thisidea of anti passive marketing.
But does it actually work? Andthat's the third question. Part
of the thing that I share a loton LinkedIn is just my
experiments because I'mconstantly trying out new things
mostly to prove to people andmyself that, like, we don't have
to do it that way.
(15:34):
And this way can absolutelywork. And the cool thing is
because this is not yet thestandard, like, status quo of
marketing, it is a 100%, like, afeature of why people choose to
work with you. Because theyappreciate that as a business,
we have taken, intoconsideration, like, how our
(15:55):
marketing materials impact them.You know, being upfront about as
a promise that we're making andjust it feels such a business
risk, but it actually has thecomplete opposite effect for
people. Like, they hate you forsaying that you're not promising
that I'm gonna make a $1,000,000in 30 days because I wouldn't
believe you.
We just had to be a little braveand, like, trust that the truth
(16:19):
is a lot it it gets appreciateda lot more than it is.
Susan Boles (16:24):
Anti oppressive is clearly a big value for you.
It's your main focus. But froman actual, like, tactical
perspective, what does thatactually mean when it comes to
marketing? What does antioppressive marketing look like?
Natalia Sanyal (16:38):
There are kinda 3 buckets that I assess to make
sure that my marketing is antioppressive, and those 3 buckets
are, is it good for business?That one is the bucket that we
are all And then is it's, goodfor humanity, and is it good for
me? I'll give you some examplesof what I look at when I'm
(17:00):
looking at marketing for myself,for my clients, and assessing if
it is good for them. We look at,are you doing strategies and
tactics that are actually stablefor you? Are you trying to,
like, do the thing thateverybody's doing and it's super
draining?
Like, you know, videos are hoton whatever platform, but if you
suck at videos or if it's, like,a stretch for you to, like, look
(17:24):
presentable on videos, thenmaybe don't make that your
marketing strategy even if it'sthe hot thing. So is it
sustainable? We look at, like,marketing boundaries. People
feel like they need to respondto every comment, every DM, and
they need to post once a day ormultiple times a day on multiple
platforms. I my boundaries formyself are, like, if my app,
(17:47):
Latyn, is the only first of all,it's the only marketing platform
that I do, just one becausethat's all I can.
It is not on my fault unless Iam sending a voice note in a DM.
And when I do that, it'sdeleted. So that's, like, one of
the bad news I have. And it's soimportant because social media
is singing over our whole life.So we look at boundaries.
(18:08):
We look at sustainability. Arewe leveraging your strength?
That's like the flip side of thecoin. It's like, what comes
really easy to you? Does writingcome naturally to you?
Do you love making gifts ofyourself? Like, it could be
something totally random, andwe're allowed to do those
impacts. It's, like, anadvantage. As a personal brand,
(18:28):
because I work with personalbrand, figure out, like, what
you're thinking. And one of thebraces I like to look is, like,
just my text messages to myfriends.
That's where we tend to be,like, ourselves the most. I'm
not personally not, like,sending long voice notes. But
Brad saved me for it, but I'm,like, a huge voice noter. So my
(18:48):
newsletter has an audio versionwhere I'm, like, essentially,
like, reading you my newsletterbecause I feel very comfortable
doing that kind of thing. Andthen as far as, like, is it good
for humanity?
This is the part where peoplejust feel really lost as to,
like, where you start. And onefilter that I find is so
helpful, it kinda, like,encompasses everything in look
(19:12):
at your marketing strategy,tactics, your language that
you're using, and ask yourselfif you use that on the person
that you love the most. That's,like, the easiest way to be
like, oh, no. This I would neverdo that. I would never do that
for my daughter.
So my daughter is that personfor me. When I ask myself that
question, it's always after I'vecreated the marketing materials.
I don't let myself get stufffrom, like, how can I be
(19:35):
inclusive and acceptable andmake sure that I'm asking for
consent when I'm creating?Because let's face it. The
default is all the status quo.
That's kind of how we've beenprogrammed. I'm a marketer. I've
been programmed that way forover a decade. I just let myself
do the thing before I publish itwhen I'm editing. Then I put on
my, like, is this good for ahuman?
(19:56):
Did I use language that is notgreat?
Susan Boles (19:58):
I love that as a as a technique because I talk a lot
about, you know, human firstfinance and human first
operation. Like, being a humanfirst company, it's really hard
to kind of tangibly explain whatthat is. But I think your
example of, like, would you dothis to your favorite human is a
really good, like, very tacticalway of implementing that.
Natalia Sanyal (20:23):
Yeah. I I think you're right. It is really hard
to explain these things, butwhen you put when you have, like
you picture that person, itbecomes suddenly tangible and
then it's, like, easier.
Susan Boles (20:38):
So tell me a little bit about what this actually
looks like for you in your ownbusiness, in your own marketing.
You've given us few examples of,like, how you write your copy
and what channels you you set.But are there other things in
your business that you do inyour own marketing or your own
practices?
Natalia Sanyal (20:56):
Yeah. There's so many things. One of the things I
do is I get fancy later. So, youknow, you've heard of, like, a
minimum viable approach tothings. And that's, like, trendy
right now, and I'm so gladbecause we need to take that
approach.
So doing things like don't worryabout a fancy sales page. Don't
(21:18):
create a logo. You don't evenneed a name for your thing that
you're selling. Just sell thething first. So for me, that's a
Google Doc.
I'll create a, quote, unquote,sales page on a Google Doc and
see what happens there before Icreate sales page. So what is
the least I can do in mymarketing before I start taking
(21:40):
the next level? The next levelthings are often visual. I feel
so bad. I know that graphicdesigners are listening to this,
and they're like, no.
Like, graphics are absolutelyvery effective. Logos are
awesome. You know, visualbranding is great. I just I
think it we need to start beforethat and allow ourselves to be a
(22:01):
little raw in the beginning ofan offer or the beginning of our
business. And we get so stuck onthose things.
Like, creating our graphic takesso long when we are non graphic
designers, And it's just notwhere we need to be spending our
time. We worry so much about,like, our how people are
perceiving us visually, whereas,like, the message is really what
(22:23):
matters the most. So nail themessage in the way that you
deliver it. Like, do it in a waythat's easiest for you. If a
Google Doc feel too much, then Iwould just do, like, a video
where I'm talking about myoffice.
I wasn't comfortable with that.So minimum approach to
marketing, I have to constantlytrain my brain to do it. That's
(22:46):
one thing. And then selling thething before I build it is
another huge, like, game changerthing. When I'm writing, it's
always in the editing phase,like I mentioned before, where I
will apply the filters.
By the way, I'm a copywriter,and language is where I trip up
the most. All the touring, thelanguage, it just it just comes
(23:07):
out. I'm 40. I have been I'vebeen on this for 40 years, and
the language is it's really hardto, like, reverse that
conditioning. You know?
So like I said, I don't try towrite from, like, a perspective
of anthropomorphic nature fromthe get go. I'll just do that
later. That's, another thingthat is, like, really hard for
people to kinda wrap their headsaround because they get excited
(23:27):
about the idea of it, and theyget stuck if we don't know how
to, like, start writing likethat. So those are some of the
things that I use for myselfother than, like, the social
media boundaries. But it is,like, an endless assessment of
am I providing enough consenthere for people?
Am I transparent enough for themto make, like, an informed
(23:48):
purchase decision? Do they knowwhat they're getting into when
they sign up for this? And Ioften won't have the answer
right away. Like, I willrealize, like, oh, this person
didn't know that it was gonnabe, like, whatever x, y, zed. So
then why, like, update?
And if an apology is necessary,it's okay. We're gonna make
mistakes. And I think thatthat's been really healing for
(24:10):
me and for the people that Iwork with to, like, understand
that there's so much that weneed to consider. It's
impossible to get it all. We'lltry our best.
We're gonna make mistakes. Ijust wanna reiterate, just,
like, giving yourself grace inthis journey of exploring and
playing around with anti pressmarketing, you don't have to put
(24:31):
so much pressure on yourself toget it right. In fact, like, it
feels scary, but the more youtalk about the mistakes, the
better it gets. People are verywilling to forgive and are
usually really gracious inreturn. So I would say that,
like, don't be scared of ofmaking mistakes.
Just be open about it. We fixit.
Susan Boles (24:51):
I love that. And it's a really important
perspective, particularly whenyou're trying to do things that
are, against the norm, againstthe default, and really go
against just really deeplyingrained ideas where you just
it's really hard to see thingsthat are designed to be
invisible, I think. So talk tome a little bit about the impact
(25:18):
of making this transitionwhether good, bad, surprising,
kind of shifting your businessinto this anti oppressive area
and really actually using theseanti oppressive tactics for
yourself. What has the impactbeen for you or your business?
Natalia Sanyal (25:35):
Oh my gosh. Okay. So I I've been in
marketing and copywriting for,like, over a decade, and I
didn't ever talk about itbefore. I was always a little
bit ashamed. There was a lotthat I loved about marketing.
I loved the creativity. I lovepsychology in general. Like,
that I hated the manipulationpart. So I love talking about my
(25:55):
work. And I always told myselfthat, like, marketing is great.
It pays the bills, and itsatisfies, like, my desire for
creativity in my work. But I'mgonna find a thing one day
that's, like, really my thingthat aligns with my values. And
then 2020 happened, and it gaveme this gift of, like it really
(26:16):
opened the doors for me to bebrave enough to announce that I
am no longer doing marketing, a,for, like, companies that refuse
to take warranty press through,and finally working with people
who are willing to experimentwith and, like, really devote
(26:37):
their marketing to this asset.And it felt like I was taking
the biggest risk ever. I was sonervous, but I remember the day
that I decided to do it.
I was canoeing with 2 fellows ofmine, and I was telling them
about this transition that I wasthinking about. And I was like,
I should make my slogan,decolonize your copy. And you
(26:59):
all started laughing, like,wouldn't that be hilarious that
you actually, like, publicly saythat? That's so that's so just
it's so, you know, in your face.And then I ended up putting that
in my LinkedIn banner, and itwas the best move ever.
When I did that, I decided I wasgoing all in, updated my banner,
and outlined, like, what my keymessages are for the things that
(27:20):
I wanted to talk about beingknown for my perspective on, you
know, anti Preston marketing. Igave myself 2 months, and let me
just see what happened. I didn'tsell anything in that time. My
goal was just to show up and,like, was being visible, which
is very uncomfortable. And itchanged my whole world.
I I did not realize, like, Icould have an audience of people
(27:46):
who would wanna work with methat I actually wanted to work
with. That was the best part.It's like, oh, I don't have to
stuff it up and, like, domarketing for a company that I
am actually so embarrassed thatI worked for because I know that
they're, you know, not known forthe best business practices. So
(28:06):
as a result, the people thataligned my values showed up in
my LinkedIn. It wasn't like Iblew up or anything.
I had, like, 8,000 followers forthe first long while, and it was
enough for me to createsomething that I was proud of
that made a difference withthose people and made 6 figures
(28:28):
in the 1st year. It was, like,on the lower end of the 6
figures, but I was just happythat I was doing something that
was sustainable for me and notfor me and my daughter to live
off of and really was valuesaligned. So it's been really
great, and I it was my favoriterisk that I've taken so far in
business.
Susan Boles (28:49):
For sure it was risky because it was in such
direct conflict to the default.But I as one of those people who
saw you pop up and then deeplyresonated with it, it was so
refreshing and attractive in away that, like, it it and, you
know, having implemented a lotof the same kinds of practices
(29:12):
in my own work, I have found itworks so well as a filter. I am
almost never telling aprospective client like, hey,
it's not really a good fit.Like, I am happy to refer you to
my colleague who does this, whoI think you'll really resonate
with, which is what I spent themajority of the beginning of my
(29:33):
business doing is everybody comein, cool, and then you would get
to the sales call and I'd belike, no thank you. That's not
true anymore.
Like all of the people that comein through my content, through
my network, they're all veryvalues aligned and I think
that's because I'm transparentabout my values. I'm transparent
(29:55):
about, you know, how I approachthings. And the hustle bros are
very repelled by what I'mtalking about.
Natalia Sanyal (30:04):
Exactly. Yes. I would say that that's been the
most awesome, impact of thisswitch to anti press marketing
is I no longer have to deal withthat. And the moment that I
decided I was gonna do this wasbecause I had my last
interaction with one of thosecompanies where I, like, was
nauseous. I should've after thatsales call, I was like, okay.
(30:25):
You know what? I never want tohave a sales call like that at
the end where I am, like,feeling super offended,
triggered, and, like, disgusted.So leading to values is
wonderful. You don't have todeal with that anymore.
Susan Boles (30:41):
I am a big believer that there are providers out
there who are a good match foreveryone. Getting the people who
are values aligned with me intomy world and pushing away the
people who I just will alwaysfeel uncomfortable working with
them. It's gonna stress me out.It's gonna stress them out. It's
(31:02):
just not a good fit.
I think is one of the mostimpactful parts, at least that I
have found of leading leadingwith your values, not just that
it makes your business feelcalmer and better to just exist
in. We're gonna take a quickbreak to hear from our sponsors,
but when we come back, Nataliaand I are going to get into
(31:25):
deconstructing urgency as both amarketing tactic and as an ethos
in our own businesses. And she'sgonna take us inside a pretty
interesting tactic that she usedin a recent launch that I have
termed maybe reverse urgency. Ingeneral, have you found that the
(31:47):
process of testing out theseanti oppressive ideas and
techniques require you toseparate from the idea of
urgency or, like, actively workon detaching from urgency. Just
being okay with being a littlebit more patient about results.
Natalia Sanyal (32:10):
Oh, yeah.
Susan Boles (32:11):
Like, and everything just has to go a
little bit slower and that'sthat's the real world thing.
Like, even the fast tactic stuffactually take a long time to pay
off. For me, like, theunlearning the urgency piece has
been such a huge part of that. Ifeel like people are surprised
at my perspective on urgencyoften.
Natalia Sanyal (32:27):
I totally agree with you, and I am very in line
with, like, taking the slowroute to growth versus, like,
the fast one where you sacrificeyour values and your health in
(32:48):
the process. But at the sametime, I think there is a way to
use urgency in a way that is,like, actually in line with the
truth. So, for example, I willrelease an offer, and it's a
program, and I've got 20 spots.And that is the truth. 20 spots
is a group program.
I do not have any more spotsother than 20. I am going to
(33:11):
include that fact in mymarketing materials. And
psychologically, people will seethat, like, okay. There's a
limit to this, and I wanna beone of the 20 people. Some
people will say, like, oh, butisn't that psychological
manipulation?
Personally, I don't think sobecause it is, like, a 100%
real. It's reflecting mycapacity, and I am simply
(33:33):
telling you the truth. I've got20 slots left. Another one is,
like, a time urgency thing wherethe offer is only available for
a certain amount of time. I'vegot a subscription service, and
Indevit is not always open.
And I had done that, and I knowthat, like, if I close it, that
means I'm also not making moneyin that period of time. So it's
(33:57):
not like I am using urgency in away that is completely fake. You
know, there's real urgency, andthen there's fake urgency. The
doors are open for, like, say, aweek. Before that, people who
are following me and are on mymailing list are well aware that
I have this program.
It is also a very well ticketoffer. So it's like considering
(34:19):
all of those different layersand then making that decision
of, like, it's okay for me tosay that we've got a limited
time to join this thing. That'stechnically urgency, but it is
rooted in the truth.
Susan Boles (34:31):
I'm not even sure that that necessarily counts as
urgency. I think it counts astransparency.
Natalia Sanyal (34:35):
Like Yeah.
Susan Boles (34:36):
You have this many spots. That's how many spots
there are. If you want one, youknow, there's 4 left. You could
have one of them or they couldgo to somebody else. I'm just
giving you the information youneed to be able to time your
decision.
I think there's actually anotherinteresting aspect to this,
which was what you did when youlaunched momentum which is that
(34:58):
subscription offer you werementioning. So for context for
the listeners, this is asubscription offer for LinkedIn
templates. Basically the idea isthat you get 3 prompts per week
with explanations about how toapply them along with a weekly
co working session for folks touse to, write the content
together. So it's a $15 a monthsubscription, so low ticket
(35:19):
offer here that's actually notevergreen, you open it up and
close it periodically. But whenyou launched it, you basically
created a waiting list.
You sent out an email to yoursubscribers saying that this is
something that you wanted tobuild and sell but that you
weren't going to do it untilthere were 300 people on the
waiting list which I feel likeis almost reverse urgency that
(35:40):
ended up having a way biggerimpact I think than a
traditional marketing campaignthat leans into urgency. So as
part of this launch campaignperiodically you would remind
your audience that you wereselling this thing and ask them
to join the wait list and youtold folks how many people were
on the waiting list at the timeyou did the update so they could
(36:02):
see like tracking in real timewhat was actually happening. And
you were very explicit aboutlike, hey, I'm not launching
this until there's enough peopleinterested in this thing to make
it worth my time Which I thoughtwas a really interesting
perspective because sofrequently I think as
entrepreneurs we we build thething and then we sell the
(36:24):
thing. Even though this wasn'tlike a a big like it it didn't
feel like a big launch. Itdidn't it was just like, hey,
this is the thing I wanna trybut I'm not doing anything about
it until it's enough to besustainable.
I really, really responded tothat and thought it was really
interesting because it was kindof unusual. You know, there's we
(36:45):
do pre orders which I guess thistechnically was, but it didn't
really feel like that. It feltlike kind of radical
transparency in terms of like, Iwanna try this thing and I'm
also not doing it unless it issustainable.
Natalia Sanyal (37:01):
That was the first time I did that, where I
told people, like, hey. I Iwanna create this thing for you,
but I'm not gonna do it unless Ihave a certain amount of people
on the wait list. I never donethat before. It's so nerve
wracking on a couple levels. Oneof the things I was worried
about is I told people I needed300 people on the wait list.
(37:22):
Like, when you communicate yourcapacity, you know, you can be
like, I've got 5 spots left.I've got 20 spots, whatever.
I've done a lot, like, smallernumbers. 40 was the max capacity
before whenever I launchedsomething. So 300 felt like, oh
my gosh.
This is a huge number. How longis it to to get there? I had no
idea, But let's just see howthis goes. And at first, it
(37:46):
feels like an internal thingwhere I was like, okay. I was
mapping out my offer.
I'm like, it's for me andDina's. I really I need 3 other
people to wait list, and thenI'm probably gonna expect, like,
a 100 people to actually signup. So that was my plan. I'm
like, maybe I don't know. Justtell people that.
So I decided to communicatethat, and I got such support
(38:06):
from people that I was like,okay. This is gonna be, like, by
name message, actually, becausepeople are responding so well to
it. I just started updatingpeople on, like, how the people
were on the wait list, andpeople started rallying behind
it and, like, tell a lot ofpeople that need to get to the
300 people.
Susan Boles (38:21):
It felt so fun that every time you sent out an
update, I'm like, come on,people. I want the thing. Give
it to me.
Natalia Sanyal (38:28):
You sign up. Oh, totally. I had no idea that was
gonna happen. So that was a veryfun learning to see the impact
of of that transparency wasawesome. I am definitely going
to repeat that.
It works. It feels like abusiness risk, but it actually
is the total opposite. It wassuch a great it was such a great
(38:49):
turnout at the end. I got 300people, and then, how long did
they take me? I started, towardsthe end of May, and then
actually, July 19th, I reached300, and I bought a 180 people
who signed up and paid.
Susan Boles (39:05):
That's a pretty good conversion rate.
Natalia Sanyal (39:07):
It was a break. It was great. It was a great
conversion rate. So lots oflearnings, and I did it really
scrappy. I truly did not buildthe thing.
And I am such a recoveringperfectionist. It's so
frustrating because I want to. Ifeel a lot more secure when I
have the thing built up in myhead. Like, business wise, does
(39:28):
not make sense to build thething and then sell it. So I
don't allow myself and I thinkit was, like, literally, like,
at least once we I put myselfdown to be, like, do not map it
out.
Didn't talk. Like, startcreating all the things, not
until you have 300. So, yeah, Ithink, like, just being more
open about us being humanbeings. Like, I don't feel like
(39:52):
we let ourselves be human. Asentrepreneurs, we feel like we
have to be it's, like, superprofessional.
We have it all together. All ourducks in a row, and everything
is ready. Whereas, like, I thinkpeople respond really well to
just the opposite.
Susan Boles (40:08):
I am much more likely to buy a thing the first
time somebody's doing it than Iam to do it when they've offered
it. You know, once it'sproductized and it's it's like I
would much rather go through themessy version where, I mean, you
know, I geek out about buildingservices.
Natalia Sanyal (40:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Boles (40:29):
Being able to see the front end and see somebody
experiment, see what's working,see what's not, from the inside
is always so much moreintriguing for me than I'm not
likely to buy something whenit's the 15th cohort or whatever
it is. It has been interestingbecause as I'm talking to other
people, I am finding, the peopleI hang out with online mostly
(40:53):
that they're the same. I thinkthere is a camp of people who
are like, I don't wanna do ituntil it's been validated and
it's real and it's the communitybuilding aspect of being in
somebody's first iteration or insomebody's it is so much more
intimate. It's it does buildmore cohesive communities, I
(41:15):
think, than if you're doing ship30 on the 89th iteration or
whatever it is at this point.
Natalia Sanyal (41:22):
That is making sense because, you know, like,
doing beta version, selling thebeta version is such a becoming
a popular day. And I think it'sbecoming popular because people
are realizing that, like, it'sfun to be the first person
Susan Boles (41:37):
It totally is. To try. I also think, you know, a
lot of the, like, programs orcourses or communities that I
do, part of the reason I'm doingit is for access to the person
doing it. Right? Like, I wannabuild a connection and a genuine
relationship to that person andthat always is true in a beta.
(41:57):
Right? Like, the first time theydo it, they are always present,
they're always engaged, they'recommitted, they're excited about
it. But if you're doing, youknow, the 15th cohort, they have
a team, You're never gonna seethem. They're not participating.
They have scaled this thing tothe point where it's the access
is no longer part of the value.
(42:19):
The value has to entirely be onhow effective their program
transformation is. And I don'thave a lot of experiences where
the program itself is where Igot the value. Mostly it's the
people in the program that weregoing through the thing together
(42:40):
or whatever.
Natalia Sanyal (42:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Part of me kinda thinks that truth.
But it's true.
Susan Boles (42:46):
I also agree as somebody who would like to Yeah.
You know, offer something andscale it and, you know, be the
person delivering it. Deliveringit. I agree and I think it'll be
really interesting to see kindof what happens with courses and
programs and memberships. Nowthat they're sort of on the way
out, I think there is anopportunity for something
interesting and innovative todeliver that transformation that
(43:07):
isn't that.
And I think it's it's gonnaultimately end up being
something a little bit morehuman.
Natalia Sanyal (43:13):
Yeah. I am constantly trying to figure out
what is the thing that I couldoffer that, like, works with my
brain and energy levels. Andit's hard because people
obviously, ideally, thinkideally, it's 1 on one time with
you that people want if you put,like, the finances inside. And,
(43:37):
I also have, like, limitedenergetic capacity. So trying to
figure out how to balance those2 things is a fun challenge that
I I I like to revisit, like,every time I launch something
again or launch something new,like, with momentum, that the
the whole premise was like,okay.
(43:57):
What can you do that's, like,super easy that people have been
asking you for, but does itrequire, like, a lot of your
energy? And Numenta was theanswer to that because there is
still, like, co working sessionswhere we are on the call
together for 90 minutes, butit's not coaching fault. I'm
also using the time to, work onmy stuff and, like, I feel like
(44:20):
I make community with people. Wetake a break together halfway
through and do something fun.That feels really sustainable
for me.
Susan Boles (44:26):
It's an interesting balancing between, like, what
kind of service or offering issustainable for the person
making the offering and how doesthat translate into creating the
transformation that you aretrying to create or help other
people create and trying tofigure out how to navigate and
(44:50):
like meld those 2 things, Ithink is the real trick. I'm
super interested to see wherefolks take it. Like I think
momentum is a really goodexample of something that is,
you know, it's not a course,it's not a community
necessarily, it's not really amembership, it's not like it's
not any of those things and yetstill really effectively
(45:12):
delivers a transformation in away that is genuinely
sustainable for you even whenyou are at very low energy
because it's something you canbatch stuff if you have a good
week. You can not do stuff ifyou have a bad week. Like
Natalia Sanyal (45:28):
Uh-huh. Yeah. And, you know, I have to be
patient with it because it's $15a month, and I don't have
thousands of statuses of peoplein it. So it's gonna be, like, a
slowly grow kind of offer, and Ihave to be okay with that. And
in the meantime, doing otherthings where I'm constantly
(45:50):
asking myself, like, okay.
How can I, like, make this yearfor myself while still, like,
creating that value that peopleneed?
Susan Boles (45:59):
One of the most difficult things about
committing to engineering acalmer business is realizing
that a lot of the time you haveto actively fight the default
and do things in a way that workfor you even if that looks weird
or unconventional from theoutside. The default business
tactics and strategies, theyaren't designed for the benefit
(46:20):
of real people. They're designedfor the benefit of capitalism.
So they rarely serve to createcare or build sustainable
practices into a business. Whenit comes to considering aligning
your actions with your values,this is something that's really
important not to forget.
Leaning into operating from thatlens of care and considering
(46:42):
what really works for you andyour business. Reducing urgency
in your business is somethingthat feels really hard because
everything in the business worldis designed to be urgent, to
move fast. As entrepreneurs, weare constantly feeling like
we're behind on absolutelyeverything. So, actively working
on reducing urgency might be oneof the more challenging aspects
(47:06):
of building a calmer businessbecause it goes against
everything we're taught thatbusiness is supposed to be. But
you can start small.
Take one tiny action. Start withremoving one deadline that's on
your plate right now. Mostdeadlines in our business are
totally made up by us. We arethe ones who decided what that
(47:27):
deadline was in the first place.So try removing one and then
maybe remove another one.
If you can reserve deadlines forwhen they're real and treat all
the rest of them as a generalguideline or a tentative plan
but not a hard date. That allowsyou to build in a little bit
more margin, a little bit moreflexibility, and it helps reduce
(47:51):
urgency so it's just a littlebit calmer. Another small way to
reduce urgency is to activelywork to have fewer client
emergencies. Maybe you can starttracking how often this happens
and see why each emergencyhappened and then you can go
back to and look at that dataand see if there are some
systems or some boundaries ormaybe some communication that
(48:13):
you can put in place to reducethose emergencies to 0 or close
to it. The more you can reduceurgency in different areas of
your business, the more you canlean into a slower, more
sustainable path to growth, thecalmer your business will be.
The way you engineer calm intoyour business is taking it one
(48:33):
tiny step at a time. Pick oneelement of the calmer framework
or listen to one episode of thismini series. And then focus on
building that element into yourbusiness. And then, pick another
one. Eventually those tinyactions turn into a big snowball
and you end up with a calm,sustainable business with
(48:54):
comfortable margins, efficientsystems, and lots of rest.
Thank you so much to everyonewho supports Beyond Margins. If
you are a listener, a sponsor,or a partner of any kind, I
really couldn't do this showwithout you. You can support
this show by leaving a rating ora review. It really does help
new listeners hit play with moreconfidence. And you can support
(49:17):
our sponsors by using the linkin your show notes.
All of this helps me keep thisindependent podcast going and
growing. Thank you forlistening, and until next time,
stay calm.
Hey, Susan here. Before we get into the episode,
I wanted to give you just aquick heads up that our audio
setup wasn't ideal for thisepisode, but the conversation is
so great. I hope you'll tune inand bear with us that the audio
quality isn't quite up to ourusual standard. You can also
read the transcript linked inthe show notes if you prefer.
(00:21):
Alright.
Onto the show.
Natalia Sanyal (00:22):
I think, like, just being more open about us
being human beings. Like, Idon't feel like we let ourselves
be human. As entrepreneurs, wefeel like we have to be this,
like, super professional. Wehave it all together. All our
ducks in a row.
Whereas, like, I think peoplerespond really well to just the
opposite.
Susan Boles (00:44):
Urgency is the enemy of calm. In order to
design and build a calmbusiness, you have to
consistently and consciouslyreduce urgency. Hi there. I'm
Susan Bowles, and this is BeyondMargins, a show where we
deconstruct how to engineer acalmer business. We're wrapping
up a mini series where we'vebeen examining the common
(01:06):
elements of a calm business.
Calm businesses don't happen byaccident. They have to be
intentionally designed that way.And assuming that's the case,
then the question reallybecomes, how do you actually do
that? How do you engineer calm?If you haven't listened to the
rest of the series, I highlyrecommend you head back to the
(01:27):
beginning to catch up.
We've covered clarity, autonomy,care, margins, efficient
systems, and rest. These are thecommon elements that are
critical to engineer a calmerbusiness. Today, we're wrapping
it up talking about the finalelement, reducing urgency. But
we're also gonna talk about thereal world application of all of
(01:50):
these elements because theseconcepts are great in theory,
but what does it look like inpractice to really align your
actions with those values?Because having an intention to
run a calm business is onething, but you have to take
action.
You have to put those elementsinto practice to make it become
reality. When it comes tobuilding a calmer business, it's
(02:12):
really important to realize thatthe enemy of calm is urgency.
When you feel like you have torush around and everything is an
emergency, it's not possible forthings to be calm. So in order
to create that calm, you have toconsciously reduce urgency. You
have to learn to slow thingsdown.
Learn to cultivate somepatience. But that's not the
(02:35):
default. That's not what we'retrained to do. We're supposed to
move fast and break things.We're supposed to grow at all
costs.
We're supposed to usemanipulative marketing tactics
to make the sale because we'vegotta grow. But what if instead
of that, we slowed down? What ifwe thought about the impact of
running our businesses that wayand then we changed our actions
(02:57):
to align with what we actuallybelieved instead of what we're
supposed to do? My guest todayis the perfect example of that.
Natalia Sanyal is a smart savvymarketer.
She's worked with $1,000,000,000big name businesses like Apple
and Lululemon. But as you'llhear her talk about, she didn't
(03:17):
wanna do things the way she wassupposed to anymore. She wanted
to use her powers for goodinstead of for evil. So now
she's an anti oppressivecopywriter and brand messaging
strategist. She teaches highintegrity personal brands
including my own to usemarketing as a force for good so
that they can sell better andharm less.
(03:38):
We'll talk about what antioppressive marketing is and how
you can use it to make your ownmarketing less harmful both to
yourself and to the world. We'llcover what happened in her
business when she took the leapto align her marketing with her
values. And we're also gonna getinto deconstructing urgency.
Both from an ethical marketingperspective, but just generally
(04:00):
how to reduce urgency in yourown business. So you describe
yourself as an anti oppressivemarketer.
Natalia Sanyal (04:12):
To me, I'd interpret that to mean that
marketing by default isinherently oppressive. Yeah. I
do think that that is the caseand it's pretty accurate. I like
to ask this question every nowand then on LinkedIn, and it's
actually even on my, like, optin form. I put it everywhere.
Can I ask people who are mycustomers or, in my audience how
(04:34):
it feels to market themselves?And, like, 90% of the time, the
answers are so heavy and reallynegative. Like, people will say
it feels dangerous. It feelsblimey. It feels like
unnecessary evil or not valuesaligned is one, like, throws
that a lot.
And so, like, why are peoplefeeling this way? I think it's
(04:55):
people don't, a, hate marketers.They don't trust the us. They
don't trust the marketers. Sowhen they have to do it for
themselves, like, you know,entrepreneurs, personal is it
feels really gross.
So why is it that marketing hasthis impact on consumers and I'd
say humanity first businesses? Ithink it's because the the past
(05:20):
state of marketing and thecurrent state of marketing is
built around this belief thatthe revenue justifies the needs.
And so we end up doing all thetactics and strategies that
really end up harming humanityin the process. But it is
effective and it makes us money.That's where it's like it's
(05:42):
really tricky.
And I agree with it beingdangerous in that sense because
it is effective as far asrevenue. But in that process, we
are hurting ourselves, and weare hurting our people. I see it
as a problem in the way that wehave always done it, and, and
I'm seeing a shift as well atthe same time. I'd say the
(06:04):
biggest shift happened in 2020.Brands were, like, super
conscious of the impact thattheir marketing was having on
people because people weregetting really loud and public
about how they felt aboutcorporate branding, marketing
tactics, and, you know, thelanguages that they were using.
So now brands are payingattention, and 80% of consumers
(06:27):
purchase from companies thatthey feel are aligned with their
values. That gives me hope forantidepressant marketing. That
marketing is changing andcompanies are kind of being
forced
Susan Boles (06:37):
to do that. Do you think that's still the case?
There was that, like, big bumpin 2020 where we were all at
home and George Floyd and thatwas followed by the, like, hot
labor, all the strikes summer.Like, we've had a lot of years
where that I I think was reallyvisible. And I'm wondering if
(06:58):
you're seeing sort of a shift alittle bit in the opposite
direction.
Natalia Sanyal (07:03):
I know that that is the case for DEI and, right,
my work is very tied into DEI,diversity, equity, inclusion. At
the same time, I find that it isstill the case that people are
not willing to support companieswhere their values don't align
(07:23):
with what's going on inPalestine and a lot of the
boycotts. Like, that's still thecase. That's still how people
are willing to align their moneyeven with the the, politicians
and the elections that arecoming up and the companies that
are supporting the differentpoliticians. I think it it
definitely had, like, a hugeburst in 2020, and it has kind
(07:47):
of calmed down a little bit.
Susan Boles (07:49):
I guess when you're thinking about in terms of,
like, boycotts and people beingreally passionate about where
they are or aren't spendingtheir money, you're right. It is
actually really effective. TheStarbucks boycott did actually
tank their revenue and theKellogg's boycott earlier this
year did actually have a prettysignificant impact as well. So I
think I feel like from the bigcompany perspective down, they
(08:13):
feel like they can get away withnot being as proactive about it.
But from the consumerperspective, I think there's a
lot more collective actionhappening.
Yeah. So that stuff is stillhappening, which is great. So we
are of the mind that we shouldbe acting and using our
(08:34):
marketing in accordance with ourvalues that consumers will
actually buy according to thosevalues for the most part. But
what are the problems thatactually come from that default
marketing approach? From thatgrowth at all costs, you know,
the revenue makes all actionsworth it kind of modeled.
Natalia Sanyal (08:55):
The for example, there's maybe you know about
this copyright infringement.It's super popular and commonly
taught. It's called the PASframework. FAB stands for
problem, agitate solution. So inthat framework, we are taught to
write our copy in that formatwhere we first take the problem
and then we agitate where wherethe copy is designed to evoke
(09:19):
emotions of shame and even,like, trigger trauma and
desperation so that after theyfeel that way, you present the
solution, and they are desperateto buy.
It's just a lot easier to sellwhen someone is in that really
volatile state that causespsychological damage, to the
consumers. Then there's thefinancial damage that it can
(09:43):
cause for people becausemarketing, typically, it's
changing, but we got away with alot without consent. Now even
nowadays, it's very common forI'll agree to, like, a a network
will call just a friendly chatwith somebody. And after the
chat, I am automatically addedto their mailing list, which was
(10:04):
not the intention of connectingwith them. It had, like I never
opted in, but it happens quiteoften.
Another one is, like, fastaction bonuses that happen at
the end of webinars where peopleon the webinar have no idea that
they're even gonna be sold to.And then at the end of the
webinar, they've got, like, 20minutes to make a decision and
(10:26):
get this fast action bonus whereit does require, like, a
significant investment. It's notrequired to see, investments be,
like, 4 figure, 5 figureinvestment, and they give you 20
minutes to make that decision.So people who are in that state
of, like, you know, the wholewebinar is kinda set up for that
moment, and they are excited.They do not have time to check
(10:47):
if this is actually a gooddecision for their bank accounts
or all the things you have toconsider before making an
investment like that.
You don't have time, but fastaction bonuses are very
effective. So that will causesignificant financial damage
depending on, you know, theperson's state of viruses in
(11:08):
that moment when they make thatdecision. You will see companies
like the Walmart Juneteenth icecream that they released in
2019. No. They released aJuneteenth ice cream flavor.
So that was one that, likesocial media just tore them
down, and they had to release apublic apology. But that's a
(11:31):
classic example of exploitingthe suffering of marginalized
people. Walmart is obviouslyhuge, but I see smaller examples
of that in my inbox all thetime. In Canada, we have
Indigenous Peoples Day on June21st. I'll get a lot of
Indigenous people's day discountfor things like spas.
(11:53):
Have nothing to do withanything, but it's a they think
that's, like, a great marketingstrategy. And if you're
listening to this and thinkinglike, oh, crap. I've done, like,
all of those things. It's okay.I have done, honestly, most of
those things too in my marketingcareer because it's what we've
been taught is this is business.
This is marketing. And I didn'teven think I could talk about
(12:16):
this because I have done all thethings before. But I talk about
it now because I I don't wantShane to get in the way of,
like, moving forward. But once aweek, I will find myself doing
something that like, on auto,that is the opposite of what I
am teaching in artisticmarketing. I'll give you an
(12:38):
example.
I have an offer where it's,like, templates. I sell my
templates. I lay to my postsometime. So in that week, I had
given a template where I put ina post a free post of somebody
else's post. So in thattemplate, I shared the original
post, and I named the the personwhose post it was.
(12:58):
But I had to ask for thatperson's permission. And I
realized that after the fact.And it was one of those moments
which I was so familiar with.Like, oh, lord. And I didn't get
it.
I'm making money off this andthen keeping that person as
example, which that person whowrote that post, not for me to
use in Paydock. So I had toreach out to them and ask them
(13:20):
and apologize. And I think that,like, it's important for me to
share these names because wewe're gonna mess up. We're gonna
catch ourselves doing thesethings all the time, and then we
need to be able to be okay withthat and apologize and then
correct, of course. Yeah.
Learn from it.
Susan Boles (13:40):
Well, I also think, you know, so much of what you're
doing, both on the marketingstandpoint but also from the
anti oppressive standpoint, somuch of this is so deeply and
unconsciously ingrained. It isreally, really hard sometimes to
be able to step back from it andlook and see even if you're
(14:03):
really well versed on antioppressive practices and you're
really keeping it in mind in thesame way, you know, you
mentioned that, like, you'vedone all of the marketing
things. Me too. Especially atthe beginning when you are
starting a business, That's whenyou are most easily preyed on by
(14:23):
the standard marketers. That'swho they're targeting.
You don't know that there'ssomething else. You assume that
this is just the way business isdone, and you end up in this,
like, box that you don't reallysee that you're in a box.
Marketing is one of those placeswhere I think it's most
prevalent in our businesses.There are a lot of other places
where we're a little bit moreopen, I think, to different
(14:47):
techniques or different tacticsor trying something in a new way
because it doesn't feel as tiedto revenue or as tied to, you
know, things that are notinsignificant. Like, we're
running businesses to feedourselves, to feed and support
our families.
And, like, that's that's notmade up. And that's where it
(15:10):
gets tricky. They're like,that's a challenge for me. And I
Natalia Sanyal (15:13):
get faced with this question quite often where
it's like, okay. I love thisidea of anti passive marketing.
But does it actually work? Andthat's the third question. Part
of the thing that I share a loton LinkedIn is just my
experiments because I'mconstantly trying out new things
mostly to prove to people andmyself that, like, we don't have
to do it that way.
(15:34):
And this way can absolutelywork. And the cool thing is
because this is not yet thestandard, like, status quo of
marketing, it is a 100%, like, afeature of why people choose to
work with you. Because theyappreciate that as a business,
we have taken, intoconsideration, like, how our
(15:55):
marketing materials impact them.You know, being upfront about as
a promise that we're making andjust it feels such a business
risk, but it actually has thecomplete opposite effect for
people. Like, they hate you forsaying that you're not promising
that I'm gonna make a $1,000,000in 30 days because I wouldn't
believe you.
We just had to be a little braveand, like, trust that the truth
(16:19):
is a lot it it gets appreciateda lot more than it is.
Susan Boles (16:24):
Anti oppressive is clearly a big value for you.
It's your main focus. But froman actual, like, tactical
perspective, what does thatactually mean when it comes to
marketing? What does antioppressive marketing look like?
Natalia Sanyal (16:38):
There are kinda 3 buckets that I assess to make
sure that my marketing is antioppressive, and those 3 buckets
are, is it good for business?That one is the bucket that we
are all And then is it's, goodfor humanity, and is it good for
me? I'll give you some examplesof what I look at when I'm
(17:00):
looking at marketing for myself,for my clients, and assessing if
it is good for them. We look at,are you doing strategies and
tactics that are actually stablefor you? Are you trying to,
like, do the thing thateverybody's doing and it's super
draining?
Like, you know, videos are hoton whatever platform, but if you
suck at videos or if it's, like,a stretch for you to, like, look
(17:24):
presentable on videos, thenmaybe don't make that your
marketing strategy even if it'sthe hot thing. So is it
sustainable? We look at, like,marketing boundaries. People
feel like they need to respondto every comment, every DM, and
they need to post once a day ormultiple times a day on multiple
platforms. I my boundaries formyself are, like, if my app,
(17:47):
Latyn, is the only first of all,it's the only marketing platform
that I do, just one becausethat's all I can.
It is not on my fault unless Iam sending a voice note in a DM.
And when I do that, it'sdeleted. So that's, like, one of
the bad news I have. And it's soimportant because social media
is singing over our whole life.So we look at boundaries.
(18:08):
We look at sustainability. Arewe leveraging your strength?
That's like the flip side of thecoin. It's like, what comes
really easy to you? Does writingcome naturally to you?
Do you love making gifts ofyourself? Like, it could be
something totally random, andwe're allowed to do those
impacts. It's, like, anadvantage. As a personal brand,
(18:28):
because I work with personalbrand, figure out, like, what
you're thinking. And one of thebraces I like to look is, like,
just my text messages to myfriends.
That's where we tend to be,like, ourselves the most. I'm
not personally not, like,sending long voice notes. But
Brad saved me for it, but I'm,like, a huge voice noter. So my
(18:48):
newsletter has an audio versionwhere I'm, like, essentially,
like, reading you my newsletterbecause I feel very comfortable
doing that kind of thing. Andthen as far as, like, is it good
for humanity?
This is the part where peoplejust feel really lost as to,
like, where you start. And onefilter that I find is so
helpful, it kinda, like,encompasses everything in look
(19:12):
at your marketing strategy,tactics, your language that
you're using, and ask yourselfif you use that on the person
that you love the most. That's,like, the easiest way to be
like, oh, no. This I would neverdo that. I would never do that
for my daughter.
So my daughter is that personfor me. When I ask myself that
question, it's always after I'vecreated the marketing materials.
I don't let myself get stufffrom, like, how can I be
(19:35):
inclusive and acceptable andmake sure that I'm asking for
consent when I'm creating?Because let's face it. The
default is all the status quo.
That's kind of how we've beenprogrammed. I'm a marketer. I've
been programmed that way forover a decade. I just let myself
do the thing before I publish itwhen I'm editing. Then I put on
my, like, is this good for ahuman?
(19:56):
Did I use language that is notgreat?
Susan Boles (19:58):
I love that as a as a technique because I talk a lot
about, you know, human firstfinance and human first
operation. Like, being a humanfirst company, it's really hard
to kind of tangibly explain whatthat is. But I think your
example of, like, would you dothis to your favorite human is a
really good, like, very tacticalway of implementing that.
Natalia Sanyal (20:23):
Yeah. I I think you're right. It is really hard
to explain these things, butwhen you put when you have, like
you picture that person, itbecomes suddenly tangible and
then it's, like, easier.
Susan Boles (20:38):
So tell me a little bit about what this actually
looks like for you in your ownbusiness, in your own marketing.
You've given us few examples of,like, how you write your copy
and what channels you you set.But are there other things in
your business that you do inyour own marketing or your own
practices?
Natalia Sanyal (20:56):
Yeah. There's so many things. One of the things I
do is I get fancy later. So, youknow, you've heard of, like, a
minimum viable approach tothings. And that's, like, trendy
right now, and I'm so gladbecause we need to take that
approach.
So doing things like don't worryabout a fancy sales page. Don't
(21:18):
create a logo. You don't evenneed a name for your thing that
you're selling. Just sell thething first. So for me, that's a
Google Doc.
I'll create a, quote, unquote,sales page on a Google Doc and
see what happens there before Icreate sales page. So what is
the least I can do in mymarketing before I start taking
(21:40):
the next level? The next levelthings are often visual. I feel
so bad. I know that graphicdesigners are listening to this,
and they're like, no.
Like, graphics are absolutelyvery effective. Logos are
awesome. You know, visualbranding is great. I just I
think it we need to start beforethat and allow ourselves to be a
(22:01):
little raw in the beginning ofan offer or the beginning of our
business. And we get so stuck onthose things.
Like, creating our graphic takesso long when we are non graphic
designers, And it's just notwhere we need to be spending our
time. We worry so much about,like, our how people are
perceiving us visually, whereas,like, the message is really what
(22:23):
matters the most. So nail themessage in the way that you
deliver it. Like, do it in a waythat's easiest for you. If a
Google Doc feel too much, then Iwould just do, like, a video
where I'm talking about myoffice.
I wasn't comfortable with that.So minimum approach to
marketing, I have to constantlytrain my brain to do it. That's
(22:46):
one thing. And then selling thething before I build it is
another huge, like, game changerthing. When I'm writing, it's
always in the editing phase,like I mentioned before, where I
will apply the filters.
By the way, I'm a copywriter,and language is where I trip up
the most. All the touring, thelanguage, it just it just comes
(23:07):
out. I'm 40. I have been I'vebeen on this for 40 years, and
the language is it's really hardto, like, reverse that
conditioning. You know?
So like I said, I don't try towrite from, like, a perspective
of anthropomorphic nature fromthe get go. I'll just do that
later. That's, another thingthat is, like, really hard for
people to kinda wrap their headsaround because they get excited
(23:27):
about the idea of it, and theyget stuck if we don't know how
to, like, start writing likethat. So those are some of the
things that I use for myselfother than, like, the social
media boundaries. But it is,like, an endless assessment of
am I providing enough consenthere for people?
Am I transparent enough for themto make, like, an informed
(23:48):
purchase decision? Do they knowwhat they're getting into when
they sign up for this? And Ioften won't have the answer
right away. Like, I willrealize, like, oh, this person
didn't know that it was gonnabe, like, whatever x, y, zed. So
then why, like, update?
And if an apology is necessary,it's okay. We're gonna make
mistakes. And I think thatthat's been really healing for
(24:10):
me and for the people that Iwork with to, like, understand
that there's so much that weneed to consider. It's
impossible to get it all. We'lltry our best.
We're gonna make mistakes. Ijust wanna reiterate, just,
like, giving yourself grace inthis journey of exploring and
playing around with anti pressmarketing, you don't have to put
(24:31):
so much pressure on yourself toget it right. In fact, like, it
feels scary, but the more youtalk about the mistakes, the
better it gets. People are verywilling to forgive and are
usually really gracious inreturn. So I would say that,
like, don't be scared of ofmaking mistakes.
Just be open about it. We fixit.
Susan Boles (24:51):
I love that. And it's a really important
perspective, particularly whenyou're trying to do things that
are, against the norm, againstthe default, and really go
against just really deeplyingrained ideas where you just
it's really hard to see thingsthat are designed to be
invisible, I think. So talk tome a little bit about the impact
(25:18):
of making this transitionwhether good, bad, surprising,
kind of shifting your businessinto this anti oppressive area
and really actually using theseanti oppressive tactics for
yourself. What has the impactbeen for you or your business?
Natalia Sanyal (25:35):
Oh my gosh. Okay. So I I've been in
marketing and copywriting for,like, over a decade, and I
didn't ever talk about itbefore. I was always a little
bit ashamed. There was a lotthat I loved about marketing.
I loved the creativity. I lovepsychology in general. Like,
that I hated the manipulationpart. So I love talking about my
(25:55):
work. And I always told myselfthat, like, marketing is great.
It pays the bills, and itsatisfies, like, my desire for
creativity in my work. But I'mgonna find a thing one day
that's, like, really my thingthat aligns with my values. And
then 2020 happened, and it gaveme this gift of, like it really
(26:16):
opened the doors for me to bebrave enough to announce that I
am no longer doing marketing, a,for, like, companies that refuse
to take warranty press through,and finally working with people
who are willing to experimentwith and, like, really devote
(26:37):
their marketing to this asset.And it felt like I was taking
the biggest risk ever. I was sonervous, but I remember the day
that I decided to do it.
I was canoeing with 2 fellows ofmine, and I was telling them
about this transition that I wasthinking about. And I was like,
I should make my slogan,decolonize your copy. And you
(26:59):
all started laughing, like,wouldn't that be hilarious that
you actually, like, publicly saythat? That's so that's so just
it's so, you know, in your face.And then I ended up putting that
in my LinkedIn banner, and itwas the best move ever.
When I did that, I decided I wasgoing all in, updated my banner,
and outlined, like, what my keymessages are for the things that
(27:20):
I wanted to talk about beingknown for my perspective on, you
know, anti Preston marketing. Igave myself 2 months, and let me
just see what happened. I didn'tsell anything in that time. My
goal was just to show up and,like, was being visible, which
is very uncomfortable. And itchanged my whole world.
I I did not realize, like, Icould have an audience of people
(27:46):
who would wanna work with methat I actually wanted to work
with. That was the best part.It's like, oh, I don't have to
stuff it up and, like, domarketing for a company that I
am actually so embarrassed thatI worked for because I know that
they're, you know, not known forthe best business practices. So
(28:06):
as a result, the people thataligned my values showed up in
my LinkedIn. It wasn't like Iblew up or anything.
I had, like, 8,000 followers forthe first long while, and it was
enough for me to createsomething that I was proud of
that made a difference withthose people and made 6 figures
(28:28):
in the 1st year. It was, like,on the lower end of the 6
figures, but I was just happythat I was doing something that
was sustainable for me and notfor me and my daughter to live
off of and really was valuesaligned. So it's been really
great, and I it was my favoriterisk that I've taken so far in
business.
Susan Boles (28:49):
For sure it was risky because it was in such
direct conflict to the default.But I as one of those people who
saw you pop up and then deeplyresonated with it, it was so
refreshing and attractive in away that, like, it it and, you
know, having implemented a lotof the same kinds of practices
(29:12):
in my own work, I have found itworks so well as a filter. I am
almost never telling aprospective client like, hey,
it's not really a good fit.Like, I am happy to refer you to
my colleague who does this, whoI think you'll really resonate
with, which is what I spent themajority of the beginning of my
(29:33):
business doing is everybody comein, cool, and then you would get
to the sales call and I'd belike, no thank you. That's not
true anymore.
Like all of the people that comein through my content, through
my network, they're all veryvalues aligned and I think
that's because I'm transparentabout my values. I'm transparent
(29:55):
about, you know, how I approachthings. And the hustle bros are
very repelled by what I'mtalking about.
Natalia Sanyal (30:04):
Exactly. Yes. I would say that that's been the
most awesome, impact of thisswitch to anti press marketing
is I no longer have to deal withthat. And the moment that I
decided I was gonna do this wasbecause I had my last
interaction with one of thosecompanies where I, like, was
nauseous. I should've after thatsales call, I was like, okay.
(30:25):
You know what? I never want tohave a sales call like that at
the end where I am, like,feeling super offended,
triggered, and, like, disgusted.So leading to values is
wonderful. You don't have todeal with that anymore.
Susan Boles (30:41):
I am a big believer that there are providers out
there who are a good match foreveryone. Getting the people who
are values aligned with me intomy world and pushing away the
people who I just will alwaysfeel uncomfortable working with
them. It's gonna stress me out.It's gonna stress them out. It's
(31:02):
just not a good fit.
I think is one of the mostimpactful parts, at least that I
have found of leading leadingwith your values, not just that
it makes your business feelcalmer and better to just exist
in. We're gonna take a quickbreak to hear from our sponsors,
but when we come back, Nataliaand I are going to get into
(31:25):
deconstructing urgency as both amarketing tactic and as an ethos
in our own businesses. And she'sgonna take us inside a pretty
interesting tactic that she usedin a recent launch that I have
termed maybe reverse urgency. Ingeneral, have you found that the
(31:47):
process of testing out theseanti oppressive ideas and
techniques require you toseparate from the idea of
urgency or, like, actively workon detaching from urgency. Just
being okay with being a littlebit more patient about results.
Natalia Sanyal (32:10):
Oh, yeah.
Susan Boles (32:11):
Like, and everything just has to go a
little bit slower and that'sthat's the real world thing.
Like, even the fast tactic stuffactually take a long time to pay
off. For me, like, theunlearning the urgency piece has
been such a huge part of that. Ifeel like people are surprised
at my perspective on urgencyoften.
Natalia Sanyal (32:27):
I totally agree with you, and I am very in line
with, like, taking the slowroute to growth versus, like,
the fast one where you sacrificeyour values and your health in
(32:48):
the process. But at the sametime, I think there is a way to
use urgency in a way that is,like, actually in line with the
truth. So, for example, I willrelease an offer, and it's a
program, and I've got 20 spots.And that is the truth. 20 spots
is a group program.
I do not have any more spotsother than 20. I am going to
(33:11):
include that fact in mymarketing materials. And
psychologically, people will seethat, like, okay. There's a
limit to this, and I wanna beone of the 20 people. Some
people will say, like, oh, butisn't that psychological
manipulation?
Personally, I don't think sobecause it is, like, a 100%
real. It's reflecting mycapacity, and I am simply
(33:33):
telling you the truth. I've got20 slots left. Another one is,
like, a time urgency thing wherethe offer is only available for
a certain amount of time. I'vegot a subscription service, and
Indevit is not always open.
And I had done that, and I knowthat, like, if I close it, that
means I'm also not making moneyin that period of time. So it's
(33:57):
not like I am using urgency in away that is completely fake. You
know, there's real urgency, andthen there's fake urgency. The
doors are open for, like, say, aweek. Before that, people who
are following me and are on mymailing list are well aware that
I have this program.
It is also a very well ticketoffer. So it's like considering
(34:19):
all of those different layersand then making that decision
of, like, it's okay for me tosay that we've got a limited
time to join this thing. That'stechnically urgency, but it is
rooted in the truth.
Susan Boles (34:31):
I'm not even sure that that necessarily counts as
urgency. I think it counts astransparency.
Natalia Sanyal (34:35):
Like Yeah.
Susan Boles (34:36):
You have this many spots. That's how many spots
there are. If you want one, youknow, there's 4 left. You could
have one of them or they couldgo to somebody else. I'm just
giving you the information youneed to be able to time your
decision.
I think there's actually anotherinteresting aspect to this,
which was what you did when youlaunched momentum which is that
(34:58):
subscription offer you werementioning. So for context for
the listeners, this is asubscription offer for LinkedIn
templates. Basically the idea isthat you get 3 prompts per week
with explanations about how toapply them along with a weekly
co working session for folks touse to, write the content
together. So it's a $15 a monthsubscription, so low ticket
(35:19):
offer here that's actually notevergreen, you open it up and
close it periodically. But whenyou launched it, you basically
created a waiting list.
You sent out an email to yoursubscribers saying that this is
something that you wanted tobuild and sell but that you
weren't going to do it untilthere were 300 people on the
waiting list which I feel likeis almost reverse urgency that
(35:40):
ended up having a way biggerimpact I think than a
traditional marketing campaignthat leans into urgency. So as
part of this launch campaignperiodically you would remind
your audience that you wereselling this thing and ask them
to join the wait list and youtold folks how many people were
on the waiting list at the timeyou did the update so they could
(36:02):
see like tracking in real timewhat was actually happening. And
you were very explicit aboutlike, hey, I'm not launching
this until there's enough peopleinterested in this thing to make
it worth my time Which I thoughtwas a really interesting
perspective because sofrequently I think as
entrepreneurs we we build thething and then we sell the
(36:24):
thing. Even though this wasn'tlike a a big like it it didn't
feel like a big launch. Itdidn't it was just like, hey,
this is the thing I wanna trybut I'm not doing anything about
it until it's enough to besustainable.
I really, really responded tothat and thought it was really
interesting because it was kindof unusual. You know, there's we
(36:45):
do pre orders which I guess thistechnically was, but it didn't
really feel like that. It feltlike kind of radical
transparency in terms of like, Iwanna try this thing and I'm
also not doing it unless it issustainable.
Natalia Sanyal (37:01):
That was the first time I did that, where I
told people, like, hey. I Iwanna create this thing for you,
but I'm not gonna do it unless Ihave a certain amount of people
on the wait list. I never donethat before. It's so nerve
wracking on a couple levels. Oneof the things I was worried
about is I told people I needed300 people on the wait list.
(37:22):
Like, when you communicate yourcapacity, you know, you can be
like, I've got 5 spots left.I've got 20 spots, whatever.
I've done a lot, like, smallernumbers. 40 was the max capacity
before whenever I launchedsomething. So 300 felt like, oh
my gosh.
This is a huge number. How longis it to to get there? I had no
idea, But let's just see howthis goes. And at first, it
(37:46):
feels like an internal thingwhere I was like, okay. I was
mapping out my offer.
I'm like, it's for me andDina's. I really I need 3 other
people to wait list, and thenI'm probably gonna expect, like,
a 100 people to actually signup. So that was my plan. I'm
like, maybe I don't know. Justtell people that.
So I decided to communicatethat, and I got such support
(38:06):
from people that I was like,okay. This is gonna be, like, by
name message, actually, becausepeople are responding so well to
it. I just started updatingpeople on, like, how the people
were on the wait list, andpeople started rallying behind
it and, like, tell a lot ofpeople that need to get to the
300 people.
Susan Boles (38:21):
It felt so fun that every time you sent out an
update, I'm like, come on,people. I want the thing. Give
it to me.
Natalia Sanyal (38:28):
You sign up. Oh, totally. I had no idea that was
gonna happen. So that was a veryfun learning to see the impact
of of that transparency wasawesome. I am definitely going
to repeat that.
It works. It feels like abusiness risk, but it actually
is the total opposite. It wassuch a great it was such a great
(38:49):
turnout at the end. I got 300people, and then, how long did
they take me? I started, towardsthe end of May, and then
actually, July 19th, I reached300, and I bought a 180 people
who signed up and paid.
Susan Boles (39:05):
That's a pretty good conversion rate.
Natalia Sanyal (39:07):
It was a break. It was great. It was a great
conversion rate. So lots oflearnings, and I did it really
scrappy. I truly did not buildthe thing.
And I am such a recoveringperfectionist. It's so
frustrating because I want to. Ifeel a lot more secure when I
have the thing built up in myhead. Like, business wise, does
(39:28):
not make sense to build thething and then sell it. So I
don't allow myself and I thinkit was, like, literally, like,
at least once we I put myselfdown to be, like, do not map it
out.
Didn't talk. Like, startcreating all the things, not
until you have 300. So, yeah, Ithink, like, just being more
open about us being humanbeings. Like, I don't feel like
(39:52):
we let ourselves be human. Asentrepreneurs, we feel like we
have to be it's, like, superprofessional.
We have it all together. All ourducks in a row, and everything
is ready. Whereas, like, I thinkpeople respond really well to
just the opposite.
Susan Boles (40:08):
I am much more likely to buy a thing the first
time somebody's doing it than Iam to do it when they've offered
it. You know, once it'sproductized and it's it's like I
would much rather go through themessy version where, I mean, you
know, I geek out about buildingservices.
Natalia Sanyal (40:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Boles (40:29):
Being able to see the front end and see somebody
experiment, see what's working,see what's not, from the inside
is always so much moreintriguing for me than I'm not
likely to buy something whenit's the 15th cohort or whatever
it is. It has been interestingbecause as I'm talking to other
people, I am finding, the peopleI hang out with online mostly
(40:53):
that they're the same. I thinkthere is a camp of people who
are like, I don't wanna do ituntil it's been validated and
it's real and it's the communitybuilding aspect of being in
somebody's first iteration or insomebody's it is so much more
intimate. It's it does buildmore cohesive communities, I
(41:15):
think, than if you're doing ship30 on the 89th iteration or
whatever it is at this point.
Natalia Sanyal (41:22):
That is making sense because, you know, like,
doing beta version, selling thebeta version is such a becoming
a popular day. And I think it'sbecoming popular because people
are realizing that, like, it'sfun to be the first person
Susan Boles (41:37):
It totally is. To try. I also think, you know, a
lot of the, like, programs orcourses or communities that I
do, part of the reason I'm doingit is for access to the person
doing it. Right? Like, I wannabuild a connection and a genuine
relationship to that person andthat always is true in a beta.
(41:57):
Right? Like, the first time theydo it, they are always present,
they're always engaged, they'recommitted, they're excited about
it. But if you're doing, youknow, the 15th cohort, they have
a team, You're never gonna seethem. They're not participating.
They have scaled this thing tothe point where it's the access
is no longer part of the value.
(42:19):
The value has to entirely be onhow effective their program
transformation is. And I don'thave a lot of experiences where
the program itself is where Igot the value. Mostly it's the
people in the program that weregoing through the thing together
(42:40):
or whatever.
Natalia Sanyal (42:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Part of me kinda thinks that truth.
But it's true.
Susan Boles (42:46):
I also agree as somebody who would like to Yeah.
You know, offer something andscale it and, you know, be the
person delivering it. Deliveringit. I agree and I think it'll be
really interesting to see kindof what happens with courses and
programs and memberships. Nowthat they're sort of on the way
out, I think there is anopportunity for something
interesting and innovative todeliver that transformation that
(43:07):
isn't that.
And I think it's it's gonnaultimately end up being
something a little bit morehuman.
Natalia Sanyal (43:13):
Yeah. I am constantly trying to figure out
what is the thing that I couldoffer that, like, works with my
brain and energy levels. Andit's hard because people
obviously, ideally, thinkideally, it's 1 on one time with
you that people want if you put,like, the finances inside. And,
(43:37):
I also have, like, limitedenergetic capacity. So trying to
figure out how to balance those2 things is a fun challenge that
I I I like to revisit, like,every time I launch something
again or launch something new,like, with momentum, that the
the whole premise was like,okay.
(43:57):
What can you do that's, like,super easy that people have been
asking you for, but does itrequire, like, a lot of your
energy? And Numenta was theanswer to that because there is
still, like, co working sessionswhere we are on the call
together for 90 minutes, butit's not coaching fault. I'm
also using the time to, work onmy stuff and, like, I feel like
(44:20):
I make community with people. Wetake a break together halfway
through and do something fun.That feels really sustainable
for me.
Susan Boles (44:26):
It's an interesting balancing between, like, what
kind of service or offering issustainable for the person
making the offering and how doesthat translate into creating the
transformation that you aretrying to create or help other
people create and trying tofigure out how to navigate and
(44:50):
like meld those 2 things, Ithink is the real trick. I'm
super interested to see wherefolks take it. Like I think
momentum is a really goodexample of something that is,
you know, it's not a course,it's not a community
necessarily, it's not really amembership, it's not like it's
not any of those things and yetstill really effectively
(45:12):
delivers a transformation in away that is genuinely
sustainable for you even whenyou are at very low energy
because it's something you canbatch stuff if you have a good
week. You can not do stuff ifyou have a bad week. Like
Natalia Sanyal (45:28):
Uh-huh. Yeah. And, you know, I have to be
patient with it because it's $15a month, and I don't have
thousands of statuses of peoplein it. So it's gonna be, like, a
slowly grow kind of offer, and Ihave to be okay with that. And
in the meantime, doing otherthings where I'm constantly
(45:50):
asking myself, like, okay.
How can I, like, make this yearfor myself while still, like,
creating that value that peopleneed?
Susan Boles (45:59):
One of the most difficult things about
committing to engineering acalmer business is realizing
that a lot of the time you haveto actively fight the default
and do things in a way that workfor you even if that looks weird
or unconventional from theoutside. The default business
tactics and strategies, theyaren't designed for the benefit
(46:20):
of real people. They're designedfor the benefit of capitalism.
So they rarely serve to createcare or build sustainable
practices into a business. Whenit comes to considering aligning
your actions with your values,this is something that's really
important not to forget.
Leaning into operating from thatlens of care and considering
(46:42):
what really works for you andyour business. Reducing urgency
in your business is somethingthat feels really hard because
everything in the business worldis designed to be urgent, to
move fast. As entrepreneurs, weare constantly feeling like
we're behind on absolutelyeverything. So, actively working
on reducing urgency might be oneof the more challenging aspects
(47:06):
of building a calmer businessbecause it goes against
everything we're taught thatbusiness is supposed to be. But
you can start small.
Take one tiny action. Start withremoving one deadline that's on
your plate right now. Mostdeadlines in our business are
totally made up by us. We arethe ones who decided what that
(47:27):
deadline was in the first place.So try removing one and then
maybe remove another one.
If you can reserve deadlines forwhen they're real and treat all
the rest of them as a generalguideline or a tentative plan
but not a hard date. That allowsyou to build in a little bit
more margin, a little bit moreflexibility, and it helps reduce
(47:51):
urgency so it's just a littlebit calmer. Another small way to
reduce urgency is to activelywork to have fewer client
emergencies. Maybe you can starttracking how often this happens
and see why each emergencyhappened and then you can go
back to and look at that dataand see if there are some
systems or some boundaries ormaybe some communication that
(48:13):
you can put in place to reducethose emergencies to 0 or close
to it. The more you can reduceurgency in different areas of
your business, the more you canlean into a slower, more
sustainable path to growth, thecalmer your business will be.
The way you engineer calm intoyour business is taking it one
(48:33):
tiny step at a time. Pick oneelement of the calmer framework
or listen to one episode of thismini series. And then focus on
building that element into yourbusiness. And then, pick another
one. Eventually those tinyactions turn into a big snowball
and you end up with a calm,sustainable business with
(48:54):
comfortable margins, efficientsystems, and lots of rest.
Thank you so much to everyonewho supports Beyond Margins. If
you are a listener, a sponsor,or a partner of any kind, I
really couldn't do this showwithout you. You can support
this show by leaving a rating ora review. It really does help
new listeners hit play with moreconfidence. And you can support
(49:17):
our sponsors by using the linkin your show notes.
All of this helps me keep thisindependent podcast going and
growing. Thank you forlistening, and until next time,
stay calm.
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