December 3, 2024 • 46 mins
We live in a society obsessed with productivity and working more, so how can we lean into rest? What are the benefits of building rest into our businesses? And how can we begin to do that?
We're continuing in our mini-series on my calmer framework for a calmer business. This week, we're focused on rest. Rest is often a challenge for us go-getters, solopreneurs, and entrepreneurs. But, it's essential to stop burnout, stay creative, and have a truly calm and sustainable business.
We're joined by Jordan Maney, a Radical Joy Coach™ and creator of the Radical Joy Collab who shares how we can build a rest ethic alongside our work ethic. She coaches others to learn the radical practice of rest so they can bring their visions to life. She’s been featured in New York Magazine, Yahoo, Attn, Oprah Magazine, and Martha Stewart Living.
On this episode, we learn how to design our work systems to include rest in a way that works for each of us, how to push back on scoetal pressure to not rest, and how our work lives and personal lives can be transformed with the power of rest.
Listen to the Full Episode to Hear:
- How can rest be intentionally designed and built into a business to make it calmer and more sustainable?
- Why is rest a critical element of productivity and how does it contribute to better creative work?
- What does a rest ethic look like and how can it be developed alongside a work ethic?
Learn more about Jordan Maney:
Learn more about me, Susan Boles:
We value your thoughts and feedback. Feel free to share them with Susan here. Your input is not just valuable, it's crucial in shaping future episodes.
- (00:00) - Introduction to Rest Ethic
- (00:51) - Exploring the Importance of Rest
- (01:44) - Challenges and Personal Experiences with Rest
- (05:42) - Developing a Rest Ethic
- (22:21) - Understanding Your Needs and Accommodations
- (25:36) - Challenges of Implementing Rest in Work
- (28:58) - The Importance of Rest and Its Impact
- (37:12) - Practical Steps to Incorporate Rest
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jordan Maney (00:00):
So we have an incredible understanding of our
work ethic, but we don't have acomplimentary rest ethic to go
alongside that.
Susan Boles (00:11):
Hi there. I'm Susan Bowles, and this is Beyond
Margins, the show where wedeconstruct how to engineer a
calmer business. Right now,we're in the middle of a
miniseries where we're examiningthe common elements of calm
businesses. So we'redeconstructing what makes a calm
business actually calm andexploring how you can
intentionally design and buildcalm into your business. We've
(00:35):
covered the other elements inthe CALMER framework in previous
episodes, clarity, autonomy,lens of care, margins, and
efficient systems.
So if you haven't listened tothose episodes yet, I recommend
you head back to the beginningof the series and catch up.
Today's episode is all aboutrest and how to actually
(00:55):
architect rest into the fabricof your business. Most
productivity advice that youhear is all about hustling
harder, doing more, more, more.But in my experience, the more I
rest, the more productive I endup being. So figuring out how to
create sufficient margin in yourbusiness so that you can have
(01:16):
adequate rest is a criticalelement of building something
that's calmer and moresustainable.
My guest is Jordan Manney. She'sa coach who helps progressive
leaders, service providers, andchangemakers learn the radical
practice of rest so that theycan bring their visions to life.
She's someone who's helped meexamine my own default decisions
(01:40):
around rest or the lack thereof.In this conversation, we both
talk about our own challengesaround burnout and building rest
into our businesses. And we talkabout the systems we each use to
make sure that we don't end upthere again.
You are my go to for all thingsrest. It's been a challenge for
(02:05):
me personally to like, learn torest. Like, for for most of my
life, I felt like rest was kindof an annoyance. Like, sleeping
was that thing you had to do,but you didn't want to do. And I
think in general, we live in asociety where rest is not a
given.
It's not a default. It'ssomething to be steamrolled
(02:26):
over, to be ignored, to beeliminated. So why do you think
that is?
Jordan Maney (02:32):
Okay. So I wanna give, like, a macro bird's eye
view answer to this, and thenlike a more intimate example of
this. When I think of thisquestion of like, why why do we
freaking suck at rest? Why do wehate it so much? Why don't we
prioritize it?
Well, we didn't grow up learningthat, right? And we live, if we
(02:56):
want to take a big macro look atthis, we live in a country in
the United States of America, ina world predicated on labor,
especially free labor, andplentiful necessary rest doesn't
really live alongside, you know,exploitative labor, right? So we
(03:18):
hear things like work hard, orwork twice as hard to get half
as far, hustle, grind. Like wehear all these terms about like
how much we have to work, but wenever really hear anything about
how much we need to restalongside of that. And so we
think that's the part that wethrow away.
Like, oh, that doesn't make anysense. Like, we don't need that.
(03:38):
I just need to work harder.Like, how many times have you
said that to yourself where it'slike, oh, no. This problem that
I'm having right now, if I justwork harder, I'll be fine.
But, like, every now and again,you need a break. And so we have
an incredible understanding ofour work ethic, but we don't
have a complimentary rest ethicto go alongside that. And then
(04:02):
on an intimate, like, level tokind of see this as behavior.
Right? Look at the behavioryou've adopted around your ideas
on work, your ideas about yourlabor and not just
professionally.
If you are in a caregiving role,if you are a woman, if you are a
(04:25):
parent, especially if you are amother, we haven't really gotten
any clear direction on what itmeans to rest. For the clients
that I work with, it'sfascinating when I sit down with
really high achieving people whocare very deeply about some of
the hard hitting issues that wehave as a society and changing
(04:46):
those for the better. They'rethe hardest on themselves. I
just got to work harder. Like, Ijust got to find a way to fit
more hours into my day and fitmore tasks into my day.
But the hard work is unlearningsome of those behaviors and
learning to actually, like, restand what that specifically looks
like for you. So I would say, wehave a social structure setup
(05:10):
that does not support a rest. Wedon't have a behavior or model
of what it looks like to rest.And then we also don't know what
feels good to us. Like, whatkind of rest feels good to us?
And there's more than just, youknow, sleep.
Susan Boles (05:27):
We all are very familiar with, you know, the
hard work. Maybe hard work andmaybe play hard, but maybe we
just skip and completely forgetthat playing part, which is, I
think, more common. Yes. But youmentioned having a rest ethic to
go along with having a workethic, and I am very intrigued
(05:51):
by this idea. So tell me moreabout what a rest ethic might
look like.
Jordan Maney (05:58):
Yeah. So rest ethic is basically taking, like,
your practices of rest and likeputting them in places so that
they stay there. Right? So on anorganizational, like, front,
instead of saying, hey, makesure that you take your PTO,
helping people really prioritizethat, making sure that's
actually being done,understanding, you know, for
(06:19):
small teams and solopreneurs.There really there aren't a lot
of other decision makers besidesyou.
Right? And usually these are theclients that struggle the most
with taking time off and seeingthat time as productive. So
learning how to incorporate halfdays, vacations, learning not
just how to take the time off,but what to do within that time.
(06:42):
So a rest ethic to me is reallythe practice of your rest and
putting that together on anorganizational level, but also
on a personal level too. Right?
So I'm going to use myself as anexample, because it's my
favorite thing to do because itshows that like, I'm not the
wise woman on a mountain who haseverything figured out. Right? I
(07:02):
love telling people to rest, butI got COVID over the summertime
and my body was like, okay,like, take a break. Just chill.
And I was like, absolutely not.
We're not doing that. There arethings that I have to get done.
So let me just get those thingsdone. July is usually my
sabbatical month that I takeoff. I could have just chilled,
but I was like, nope, no, no,no, no, no.
(07:23):
I'm so glad it's not just me.It's not, it's truly not right
because these things are so likeingrained and conditioned for us
to be like, oh, no. I got I justif I just work harder versus
just like sit the hell down and,like, chill, you can do that.
Work ethic is about diligence.Right?
Diligence in getting somethingdone. Diligence in accomplishing
something, how you approach yourwork, and rest ethic is the same
(07:47):
thing. It's the practices thatyou have around rest that you
practice personally, that youpractice professionally, and how
you intend to approach rest andhow to stay in integrity with
that. Right? Like I was not inintegrity with myself when I was
like, I don't know, just likerunning around.
It took me a minute and we gotit back together. But those
(08:09):
things don't have to live incompetition with each other. I
really believe that, like, restand work, they coincide with
each other really beautifully. Ilove
Susan Boles (08:20):
how realistic your approach to rest is because I
think we are all humans, and Italk a lot about running a calm
business. And yet 95% of thetime, my own business looks
pretty calm relative to otherpeople. You know, I have good
rest practices built in. I havegood balance most of the time
(08:44):
relative to, like, workingversus having a life. But also,
I think it's really critical topoint out that, like, even
though you are somebody whotalks about rest all the time,
I'm somebody who talks about itbeing calm all the time, and
rest is a really importantcomponent of that.
It it's important to berealistic about the fact that
(09:04):
sometimes that's just not whathappens. And it's so important
to have a touch point or apractice or something that you
can come back to as kind of a areset of, I remember that this
is something that I value. Iremember that this is something
that is critical to producingreally good creative work and
(09:27):
being able to reset and not belike, man, I totally messed that
up. I'm never resting again.That all
Jordan Maney (09:34):
or nothing mentality is probably the
hardest thing to rewire andnavigate working with clients.
There's a word you said reset,but the word I love, I love that
just gives me like that butterygoodness feeling is return.
Like, life happens. Right? Idon't know what's going on with
the planets and the stars thispast summer.
(09:56):
Everything kind of just, like,went on clouded it. I would like
for it not to happen again, but,you know, it's been fun as the
seasons have changed. It's beenfun to return to those routines
and those practices that I know,like, fill me up and keep me
rested. I'm always going tohave, like, a really realistic
approach to things because lifehappens and it's a state of
transitions. Like, the amount ofclients who are like first time
(10:21):
moms transitioning into that andfiguring out, like, what are
your new routines now?
Like, everything's different.People who are leaving a
corporate or nonprofit job andcoming into their own consulting
or business, like what does itlook to transition through that?
So I feel like approaching restfrom a place of practicality and
(10:41):
not perfection is the only wayto actually make it sustainable.
Susan Boles (10:45):
The way I managed to build more rest into my
regular schedule, more rest intomy work time overall was that I
really had to approach it kindof the same as I approach, like,
a creative practice. Like, youhad to figure out, like, what
are the routines that make it sothat you're constantly coming
(11:06):
back to what is your baseline?What what looks sustainable for
you, and how do you make surethat even when things kind of
get a little chaotic or thingsget a little overwhelming, that
you have a practice or a routineor a touchpoint, something that
allows you to do that return?And for me, it ended up really
(11:27):
looking a lot like meintentionally doing creative
practices, like the samepractices I have around
podcasting or writing oranything like that. I had to
build those similar processesaround rest in order for it to
happen, and then I still messedit up, like, the first 85 times.
Like so one of my one of my,like, annual goals this year was
(11:49):
to take 12 weeks off of work. Iplanned it at the beginning of
the year and blocked out all andthis is kind of an an evolution
of what initially started outas, like, 6 weeks. And the first
time I tried to do the breakweek, you know, I set up my
calendar scheduling appointmentso nobody could schedule things,
and then I scheduled things.Yep. Yep.
(12:11):
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Yep. I think it took me, like, 4or 5 break weeks before I
actually managed to pull off alegitimate break week.
Jordan Maney (12:21):
That's one of the hardest things that clients
experience is not necessarilythe boundaries we communicate
with other people, butmaintaining the boundaries we
set like with ourselves. Yep.It's so easy to be like, I'll
just move this around. No. No.
I can add this in. So I I Itotally commend you and applaud
(12:41):
you for being able to do thatbecause it's people think it
sounds so lovely. Right? Andpeople think it's like so easy
to do, but when you're so usedto just like cranking things out
and just getting things done,doing things differently feels
like like a shock to the system.
Susan Boles (13:00):
I had some business friends that were kinda trying
to do the same thing at the samepoint, and we both noticed we're
doing the same thing. We blockedit off, no calls, out of office
message, yada yada yada, andthen somebody would be like, oh,
hey. Do you have a chance foryour call? And he'd be like, oh,
I really wanna actually talk tothat person, and and just
completely override it. And weall had very similar experiences
(13:22):
and that you're right.
We were really good withboundaries for other people, but
then we were the the onesoverriding those boundaries. It
took several reps.
Jordan Maney (13:31):
But, honestly, that's why I use the word
practice.
Susan Boles (13:34):
Mhmm.
Jordan Maney (13:35):
Because I think it takes the pressure off of, like,
this isn't a routine that youhave to perfect. This isn't
something you're gonna get rightthe first time, second, probably
not the 3rd or 4th. Right? Butit's something you keep coming
back to. There's no perfect endpoint.
You're just it's kind of anexperiment. It's play. Like,
rest doesn't require perfection.
Susan Boles (13:57):
That is an interesting point, and I think
that's also one of the piecesthat has been hardest for me to
unlearn is that, like, I am avery black and white thinker. I
am all or nothing. I very muchstruggle with the, like, in the
middle consistency. I callmyself I'm a potato or a
tornado. I am either going at a150% or I am going at 0.
(14:19):
There is no middle ground.
Jordan Maney (14:26):
The folks that I work with are either, you know,
like, solopreneurs, serviceproviders in leadership at,
like, a socially responsible,like, company, b corp, or
executive director of nonprofit.Like, that's kind of the lane.
Right? And it's fascinatingbecause all of them are
(14:46):
incredibly driven folks. And Ithink that all or nothing
thinking is something that,like, makes it so, like, of
course, somebody who has all ornothing thinking is gonna be in
business.
Right?
Susan Boles (14:57):
Or Well, yeah.
Jordan Maney (14:58):
Say, hell, yeah. I'm gonna start nonprofit or,
like, be in leadership some typeof way because there's, like,
that drive behind it. So it'sdifficult to learn how to be
like, okay. But you also have toit's great that you can put your
foot on the gas. Can you pullover to the side of the road and
refuel when you need to?
Susan Boles (15:16):
I had to kind of recognize that I am all or
nothing and then really leaninto that. So, like, I can't do
take a half day off. I'm eitheron and I'm doing stuff or I'm
off and I'm not doing anythingand leaning into figuring out,
like, what is the rightproportion of like, if I'm gonna
(15:39):
go at a 150 percent or 0%, howmuch 0% do I need to build in so
that over the course of a monthor a quarter or a year, you
know, I'm actually running atover on average, like, a 50,
60%. But on a day individual daybasis, it's not 50%. It's a 125.
(16:02):
0.
Jordan Maney (16:03):
That just means that you're a sprinter. Right?
But you can't you can't run amarathon on on sprints. Nope. So
Listen.
However try. You could try.
Susan Boles (16:14):
The me for the first 39 years of my life
absolutely believed you can runa marathon by sprinting. Same.
Jordan Maney (16:24):
Same. And I love that you that you lean into that
because a huge part ofunderstanding how you need to
rest specifically isunderstanding yourself. So same,
I take a whole month off in Julybecause I know I arrive at that
month like a person who's beenshipwrecked to shore. I'm like,
(16:46):
I told myself that I wouldn't dothat thing where March comes
along, and I take that veryliterally. And I just go crazy,
like, with work and, like andthen I get to July, but I build
that in because I know myself.
Mhmm. I know myself. I also knowhow, like, the seasonality of my
business and how, like,summertime, everybody's outside.
(17:07):
People are going on vacation.People are doing summer hours,
what have you.
Cool. So I can build in sometime for myself to chill. Right?
But it's a huge part ofunderstanding what type of rest
you need and what type of restthat you will actually practice.
So understanding yourself.
Right? It's really about justlike knowing what you need and
if you're the type of person whowants to sprint, your routines
(17:30):
and practices are gonna lookdifferent than someone who's a
marathon runner. And it's justabout acknowledging that, I
think.
Susan Boles (17:37):
Yeah. I see so many people end up having problems
because they are trying topractice either consistency in a
way that doesn't it it's justnot how they are consistent or
they're trying to do their workschedule or their rest schedule
based off of what they feel likethey're supposed to do. So much
(17:59):
of being able to figure out whatlooks sustainable is so
personal. You know, what'ssustainable for one person is
gonna be completely differentthan what is sustainable for
somebody else. I really had toidentify how I rest, how I work,
and then try to work with thatinstead of working against it.
Jordan Maney (18:20):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really about letting
water flow the way it actuallywants to flow versus, like,
trying to dam it up and thenbeing surprised. So it's, like,
not flowing the way you want itto.
Like I want the water to go.Right? I want the water to go
upstream so bad, but the river'slike, no, it's going it's going
downstream. So like that's nothow that happens. We kind of
(18:42):
come up against other people'sexpectation for, you know, how
we work, how we rest, constantlycome up against that and what we
actually need.
And one of the things that Ifind really beautiful about rest
is that it requires you to bepresent, and it requires you to
slow the hell down and pause fora minute and just, like, listen
(19:02):
to yourself. And in thosemoments, even though we don't
always like doing that, we don'tlike slowing now. But in those
moments, you can you can hearsome of that of, like, that's
actually not the way I work orthat's actually another thing I
need. And, I've learned thisfrom Briar Harvey, who is an
incredible accommodationsconsultant. I think she calls
(19:26):
herself the systems witch.
I just love that about her. Ilove that. In the training that
I got from her, she talked aboutaccommodations in relation to
neurodivergent folks. Right? AndI think a lot of, like, these
rest conversations and beingpractical and understanding
yourself and understanding whatyou really need specifically, so
(19:49):
much of that comes from my ownneurodivergence and
understanding that, like, oh, mybrain just works differently.
I just have to, like this is howwe arrive to a place of being
like, yeah. I'm gonna have toown a business or I'm just, I
don't know what I'm going to do.Yep. And just understanding and
honoring the fact that, like,you're not broken. Nothing is
wrong with you.
You're just different and youoperate in a different way. And
(20:13):
how can you accommodate what youneed, right, in your business
and in your life. And to get tothat place, you have to
understand what you need first.
Susan Boles (20:24):
And if anybody is, like, unrealized neurodivergent
for any part of your life,that's the hardest part is
going, oh, I have to stopsuppressing and ignoring my
needs and start paying attentionto them. I don't really know how
to do that. Interesting.
Jordan Maney (20:40):
It's difficult to arrive to, but when you get
there, you're it's it makes ahuge difference because it's
about stating what you need,understanding what you need, and
understanding what you need, notfrom a place of judgment.
Because sometimes we're like,well, I need this, but I should.
No. No shoulds. No shoulds, noshames.
This is what you need. And Ithink from there, you can
(21:02):
customize what rest you need toaccommodate that. Right? So,
like, an example for me is,like, I know business wise, ADHD
brain is always firing offideas. And I think for the 1st
couple years, used to be awedding planner.
I was always just kind of like,oh, new idea. New shiny object.
(21:23):
Oh, I wanna play with this. Oh,I wanna do this. But, like, what
you said at the beginning of thepodcast about, like, finding
processes and practices thatyou're just coming back to,
returning to that baseline,simplifying.
In my context, I needed a simplebusiness, and that meant cutting
away a lot of the little offersthat I had, simplifying it down.
(21:45):
And I'm going to flip thisquestion. So for me, I would
ask, I, I would be like, oh, Iwant to give everybody, I want
to give clients like everything.But the question I had to ask
myself was like, what can theyreceive right now? And I wanna
flip that question to listenersas when you are starting to
(22:05):
better understand your needs andyour rest, what can you receive
right now?
Like, as much as it's like, ohmy god. I wanna go take I'm
gonna take a 3 month break. Canyou receive that right now? And
it's okay if it's like,actually, no. I wouldn't know
what to do with myself, and itprobably wouldn't be restful.
I think just having thatconversation, like, builds that
inner relationship between,like, what needs do I have? How
(22:29):
can I accommodate that? Whatneeds do I have and how can I
accommodate that? And that's ahuge part of rest too.
Susan Boles (22:34):
My neurodivergence and my journey towards rest
ended up being a very similarpath, sort of involuntarily
because I had a huge burnout andcould not function anymore. So I
didn't really have a choiceabout it. It was an involuntary
kind of thing. But I I thinkyou're right. Whether you are
(22:55):
neurodivergent or whether you'reneurotypical, I think
understanding and really deeplypaying attention to what you
need, how you work best, whenyou work best.
What does that what does thatactually look like for you? And
the best part about being abusiness owner is that you can
(23:16):
make that look whatever it needsto look like. And I think so
many times we ignore thatbecause we feel like we should
be working 9 to 5 or we shouldbe having meetings or we should
be not working on the weekendsor working on the weekends or
not working in the morning.Like, there's so many constructs
that the beauty of having yourown business is being able to
(23:39):
make it look however you want itto look. But also I think
sometimes we come up against a Ionly know work that looks like
this and trying to envisionsomething different is really
difficult.
I did an interview for theseries about switching to a 4
day work week. And evensomething as on the surface,
(24:01):
it's pretty simple to switch toa 4 day work week because you
like, you just stop work. You'rejust like, I don't work on
Fridays or I don't work onMondays or whatever. Like,
logistically, that's not verycomplicated, but it is really,
really difficult for folks toimagine a different schedule
than Monday through Friday, 9 to5 or whatever that looks like.
Jordan Maney (24:24):
Should is such a shit word. I don't have a a
better way of saying that. Ihate the word should so much
because there's so much shameattached to it. I feel like when
we come up against what we needand envisioning and practicing
something different versus likewhat we know, there's a canyon
(24:49):
between, like, awareness andaction. And I feel like in
between that, we gotta giveourselves a shit ton of grace.
Like, so like, a heavy helping.The hamburger helper equivalent
of grace. Like, we just justslather it on. K? Because
because we all need it, and it'sso normal.
(25:12):
And it's so common thatoftentimes when we're like, oh
god. I need something different.I need a schedule that looks
different. Maybe you're somebodywho does their best work at like
midnight or you do your bestwork at 3 PM, whatever that
looks like for you. You justhave to have those, like, those
moments of radical acceptanceand be like, okay, but that's
not what I need.
And that's not how I work andkeep it moving from there.
Susan Boles (25:36):
We are going to take a quick break to hear from
our sponsors. But when we comeback, Jordan and I are getting
into where folks get tripped upwhen they start building more
rest into their work. And we'llalso talk tactics. So how do you
actually start taking steps toengineer rest? We have talked a
(25:59):
lot about what rest looks likefor us where we run into
problems.
But stepping back out to thatmacro area again, we live in a
society where it's actually kindof difficult. You sort of have
to fight pretty hard to makesure you're building in adequate
rest, that you actually getadequate rest because that's not
the default. That's not whatwe're expected to do. So kind of
(26:22):
on the macro level, where do yousee that causing problems? How
does that present itself?
Jordan Maney (26:29):
I try and make sure anything I do, people at
least leave with thisdefinition, and I promise it'll
come back into this explanation.So the way that we define rest
at the Radical Joy headquarters,rest is how you eat. It is the
energy, attention, and time thatyou return to yourself. Why I
love that word return. Right?
So when we say, like, whatproblems does a lack of energy,
(26:53):
attention, and time return toself cause you hear it
differently. We've all had thismoment where, like, you get an
email from a client and you'rejust kind of like, if you ask me
one more question, are youserious right now? Like, where
were this resentment builds up?Because maybe expectations
(27:13):
weren't set at the beginning andnow, like, your ability to
return energy, attention, andtime to yourself is now, like,
severely limited. Right?
So I've seen a lot of resentmenttowards clients, resentment
towards partners that you'reworking with. These are the
clients that I've worked with,like, a real difficult time
(27:34):
being able to to relax, like,constantly feeling like you have
to react and being activated,like, constantly responsive.
It's, Ron Swanson in parks andrec when he's in that circle
desk that, like, just keepsgoing around and around. It's
that feeling like, oh, I can'ttake a break. I can't take my
foot off the gas.
I've seen on, like, a physicallevel, like, any unexpressed
(27:58):
emotions, particularly anger,higher cortisol in your body,
blood pressure issues,autoimmune disorders that pop
up, relationship strain, like,there's so many things that a
lack of rest impacts and, like,creates and worsens. And
oftentimes, we will attribute itto something else. I think the
(28:22):
way rest is taught to us, likerest in peace. It's something
you do when you die. We neversay it really in a positive way.
Nope. It's always kind of likethe end of something doom, and
it doesn't it doesn't have to bedoom. It could just be quiet. It
could be a day at the beach. Itcould be a walk with your
friends.
Like, rest doesn't have to bethis huge heavy, like, cloud
(28:47):
that hangs over you. It'ssomething that is a tool that
allows you to have a betterbusiness, have better
relationships, have a betterpositive self talk with
yourself. So for the clientsthat I've had, the people that I
have worked with, usually thislooks like an individual level,
like physical issues startpopping up once you've been
(29:07):
burned out for a while, problemssleeping, blood pressure
problems, digestive issues, likeanxiety on an organizational
level. It's I don't fuck withher. I don't like her, but,
like, it's a lot of, like,chattering and, like, resentment
and anger towards people thatyou're working with.
And then on a personal level,because we can all pretend as,
(29:29):
small business owners, it's easyto think that soon as as soon as
I clock out, none of thisaffects me when I go home. Yes.
It does. So like what'shappening under the surface with
your relationships? Are youfeeling comfortable enough to
communicate your needs whenyou're not even meeting them?
It takes a toll and it's justvery interesting that we're so
(29:51):
quick to name anything else, butnot arrive at like, hey. It's I
need more rest.
Susan Boles (29:57):
It feels like it is in conflict with that work
ethic. Right? It feels like ifwe take the time to rest or we
give ourselves the space that weneed or we accommodate ourselves
that we're not working hardenough, we're not hustling hard
enough, we're not gonnaaccomplish all our goals. And at
least in my experience, I foundit to be completely the
(30:18):
opposite. So for me, like whenI'm getting stressed or I'm
getting overwhelmed, myinstantaneous trigger is to work
more.
It's do more, work harder, keepgoing longer. So when I started
trying to say, okay. Cool. Mydefault now, I'm gonna try and
train myself so my defaultaction when I'm getting
overwhelmed or I'm gettingstressed, my default action is
(30:40):
going to be to walk away andtake a break. And for me, that
has resulted in, honestly, someof my best, most creative work
ever in so much less timebecause my brain has what it
needs and it can functionproperly, which is important.
Jordan Maney (30:59):
Oftentimes when you're getting those cues, it's
like the brain, it's just like,I can keep going. I can keep
going, but the body will tellyou, like, yo. We need a break.
You gotta stop. And I thinkthat's beautiful to learn that
if you're feeling overwhelmed orparticularly activated or just,
like, stressed out, it is notyour body is literally sending
(31:21):
up the flare to go take a break,not to dig in deeper.
We're trying to help peopleretool their understanding that
it's not a versus. It reallyisn't in relationship, rest and
work operate in relationship toone another. It's not in
competition. And when you canstart to kind of heal some of
(31:43):
that for yourself internally,everything gets better.
Susan Boles (31:50):
Coming back down from the macro into how this has
affected you, clearly rest isimportant to you. I mean, you
decided to base a large part ofyour business around this idea
of helping other people rest,but why was that so important to
you?
Jordan Maney (32:09):
I was always a kid who put a lot of internal
pressure on myself to, like,succeed and achieve. And so,
like, super overachiever. Andit's funny looking back that,
like, when I would get to the tosummer break, for the most part,
when I got a summer break,because I'd always do some like
activity camp, something thattook up the whole time. But when
(32:32):
I did have a summer break, Iwould just be like, don't talk
to me. I don't want to see anyof these kids that I go to
school with.
I don't want to do anything. Isee my break. And that's how I
learned how to rest was byarriving to it, completely
burned out. So it was when I gotto college where I started to
notice that those behaviors thatI had around like achieving and
(32:53):
working. The screws kind of cameloose because I didn't have the
same like support system that Idid when I was in high school.
You're on your own. And I didn'tknow what I needed. I didn't
know that I needed to takebreaks frequently. I didn't know
a lot of the accommodations thatI now under have a better
understanding of. For mepersonally, it led to a lot of,
(33:17):
panic attacks.
It's been so interesting kind oflooking back and seeing how rest
has been important to me becauseI didn't know what it was and I
didn't know how badly I neededit. And then when I started my
first business as a weddingplanner, don't know if you know
anything about the weddingindustry.
Susan Boles (33:34):
I'm sure that was great for rest.
Jordan Maney (33:38):
So good for rest. It was not. It really was
predicated on everything thatburned me out. And I had this,
like, moment in late 2018 whereI had a client, we didn't it
wasn't working. I couldn't restbecause I wasn't advocating for
(33:59):
myself.
And so I didn't know how to reston a personal level. And then in
a professional business level, Ididn't know what that looked
like. And so it became reallyimportant to me, you know, 2020
happened and I, I feel terriblesaying this. When Tom Hanks
posted that glove on Instagram,he was like, me and Rita got,
you know, corona. I rememberbeing like, oh, this is going to
(34:23):
impact, like, the next decade,but then I felt an instant surge
of relief that I didn't have todo my spring weddings that were
coming up, up, like, the nextweek.
That's a sign. Oh, that's a signof something. Oh my god. So 2020
was a really pivotal year inthat regard of understanding,
like, there's something hereabout rest personally, rest
(34:47):
professionally, and specificallyfor the people that I had been
working with who were in thesocial impact socially
responsible, social justice typeof sphere about, like, wanting
to run these races and changethese things, but also not doing
it in a sustainable way. So,like, we're running this
marathon with this torch, andthen the torch blows out, and
(35:09):
we're like, oh, we're just inthe dark, and we don't know
where we're going anymore.
Because I had to learn theprocess for myself, and it felt
disruptive and scary, and likesomething was wrong with me for
a while. I wanted to make surethat nobody else had to navigate
that process alone. And itdidn't have to be scary, and it
didn't have to be a place thatyou arrived at with shame and
(35:32):
judgment, but it could besomething that you chose to
advocate for yourself and tokeep your mission sustainable.
Honestly, I think society wouldbe better if everybody who
figured this out didn't have togo through that part first.
Nobody should have to burn out.
My business adviser always says,are you a multivitamin? Are you
(35:55):
aspirin? And she's like, it'sharder to sell the multivitamin.
It's a lot easier to sell theaspirin. You're in pain right
now?
Go get the aspirin. And so I'llhave clients who are at that
place where I'm their aspirin.Yeah. Where they're like, look.
I'm about to burn downeverything.
I'm tired. I can't function theway that I used to function.
(36:15):
Like, I'm in therapy, butsomething else is going on. And
I think it's this thing, and Ithink you can help me. Can you
help me?
And I'm like, sure. And forthem, it's like, being the
lighthouse keeper of, like, youjust got shipwrecked, you came
to shore. Here's some food,here's a blanket, let's get you
like warmed up, and then we'llbegin. Right? And then for other
(36:37):
people, it is more of like amultivitamin type of situation
where it's like, what are thingsI can do to prevent burnout?
And then I have people who arelike, what what do I need to do
to recover from this? Becausewe're already in it.
Susan Boles (36:52):
When people arrive at that point where they realize
I need to rest or I need thingsto feel better. For the most
part, people are at a pointwhere they are overwhelmed.
They're, you know, burnt out andtheir brain's not working. You
don't make great decisions fromthat place. So where do you
(37:12):
recommend folks start?
Jordan Maney (37:15):
So I went to college for journalism, and one
of my professors, who I shallnot name, love to talk about
killing your darlings. Like, ifthere's something that thing
that you really love, that'sthat interview or quote that you
really love, whatever, but youhave to kill it sometimes
because it just doesn't workwith the flow of the story. I
hated that because I'm like, no.I wanna keep my darlings. I
(37:36):
wanna keep everything.
If you are at a place whereyou're looking around, that
little meme of that dog sittingon a stool and everything is
burning around it, you are atthe kill your darlings phase and
you need to give yourself, like,30 minutes, sit down with a
piece of paper, and write downeverything that it is that you
do. And then you're gonna haveto start the painful, not fun,
(37:59):
but absolutely necessary processof just crossing some of these
things out. If you are at aplace of, like, complete and
total burnout, you have toacknowledge that you don't have
the capacity that you once did.And that's not something to be
ashamed of. That's just thereality of the moment.
So maybe that means if this wasa small business owner, maybe we
(38:21):
look at their marketing and it'slike pick the one that you want
to do. Maybe it's not Pinterestpodcast, Instagram, LinkedIn,
Facebook, newsletter sub stack.Maybe it's not all that. Maybe
it's just one. And maybe wechange the frequency of that.
Cool. But you have to take stockand inventory of all of the
(38:41):
things that you are doingbecause your capacity is
different, and we have to adjustfor what your capacity is right
now, not what it was. And that'shard because we loved what it
was, but what it was got us towhat it is. So we have to make
some adjustments. If you'relistening and you're in that
(39:03):
place where you're just like,everything fucking sucks, and
I'm just like, over all of it.
Cool. Let's turn the volume downto 1 as much as we possibly can.
And if you're at a place of, oh,well, I can't do that. I can't
do that. Be really honest withyourself about whether it's I
(39:25):
can't, or I don't want tobecause this might make me
uncomfortable.
Or I don't want to becausepeople might think that
something's wrong with me,darling, something is, you're
burned out. Something haschanged. We have to acknowledge
that. So I would start there ofjust like take an inventory with
(39:45):
the clearest of eyes, pretendthat this is a friend. If you
really don't want to judgeyourself, pretend this is a
friend and just be real aboutwhat needs to come off of that
list, because you have toacknowledge where you are if you
want to get to somewhere else.
So a lot of conversations aroundrest, which I found interesting
(40:12):
who some of these people aretalking about rest, who like 2
years ago were like, oh, no, no,no. You need to hustle. And now
it's like, no, guys, rest.Interesting. I find that a lot
of the times when we're talkingabout changes, habits, health,
but specifically about rest,we're not acknowledging the
reality for some folks.
(40:34):
The framework that I built, Isay rest with an equity lens for
a reason. If you are in a placewhere you are the sole caregiver
for maybe like your family, andyou're also the breadwinner, the
financial support for yourfamily, your rest is going to
look different than somebodywho's not. If you have a
(40:59):
marginalized or oppressedidentity, your rest may look
different than somebody who'snot. It's necessary to
acknowledge all of who you areand all of what you are
experiencing if you want to getrest that feels restful. And
it's okay to say like, hey, thisseason might suck because I
(41:22):
don't have the community tosupport me.
I don't have a grandparent herewho could watch the kids. I
don't have a business partnerthat I can lean on for this
season. If you are in that placewhere the reality is cold and
dark and it does not feelcomfortable right now, The
(41:42):
reframe and work for you is notjust about like, okay. I got to
figure out what my my rest ethicis, but also just acknowledging
like, hey, it might take melonger than other people. It
might look different, waydifferent than other people.
I might at best get care andmight not necessarily get rest.
And that's okay to acknowledgethat. And I wish more people
(42:09):
when we talk about being able totake our 12 weeks or being able
to take a sabbatical, we arriveat those things with such guilt,
because we know that there arepeople who can't do that. We,
you know, remember images of ourparents, like busting their ass
to get things done. And we'relike, well, there's no way that
I could take this vacation.
I don't deserve to have this.No. Rest is a necessity. Your
(42:31):
rest is necessary no matter whoyou are, no matter what
circumstances you have. And it'slargely important that we
acknowledge that for ourselvesindividually and also
collectively.
I think some of the biggestobstacles to being able to
achieve for us is understanding,like, where in this labor
(42:51):
spectrum we lie in terms of whatpeople expect and what people
want to extract out of us. Yeah.And also, like, what do we need?
And can we approach those thingswithout judgment and shame?
Because I've heard that a lotwhere, like, it must be nice
that you get to take your Julyoff.
Reframing that for people ofbeing, like, I can acknowledge,
(43:12):
like, that for myself and stilltake that time without feeling
guilty about it because feelingguilty about it is is kinda how
we got here.
Susan Boles (43:22):
Yep. I also one of the tiny acts that for me is so
important is, like, when you seesomebody's out of office message
and they're like, hey. I'mtaking a week off. Celebrating
them and pointing out how proudyou are of them for, like, being
able to do this thing and forprioritizing their own needs. I
would love to see more of thatinstead of the, it must be nice.
Jordan Maney (43:46):
If I was president of the world, everybody would
get, like, at least a month'svacation, monthly, voucher to go
get, like, vacation, monthly,voucher to go get like massages
because they're wonderful, andaccess to your personal
therapist. Like, that would bethat would be my platform.
Right?
Susan Boles (43:59):
I feel like the world would be a much better
place.
Jordan Maney (44:03):
There'd be no more, like, road rage incidents.
Everybody would just be like,how are you doing? But but
you're right. Like, approachingthese things, not with a sense
of guilt or shame and reallyasking yourself, like, when you
feel that must be nice energycoming up. Right?
Or you feel like, well, damn,when am I going to be able to
take a break? Asking yourselfthe question, who benefits from
(44:27):
I don't use the word, I useburnout for marketing reasons,
but once I get clients in, Idon't use the word burnout
anymore. I say unrest because Iwant them to hear it, hear the
body and the mind, the lack ofrest, and how that comes from
like systemic things, but alsobehaviors that we adopt and
practice ourselves and how we dohave some agency there. Who
(44:51):
benefits from your unrest?
Susan Boles (44:54):
I think that is a fantastic place to wrap up
because I that's what I wantpeople to sit with. Rest isn't
just about sleeping enough. It'sabout giving your brain and your
body the space they need tobring our best selves to our
work and to our team. Rest isn'tthe last letter in my calmer
(45:17):
framework because it's the leastimportant item or the one that
comes last in the whole workflowof building a calmer business.
Rest isn't something that youhave to earn.
It's the bare minimum, and it'ssomething you need to
consciously build space for,build systems around, and be
(45:37):
consistently touching base on.In some seasons of your
business, you might need morerest or maybe a different kind
of rest, but it's something thatalways has to be there in order
for you to do your best work ina sustainable way. So take a
minute right now and startthinking about how you could
build in just a tiny bit morerest into your week and into
(46:00):
your work. A big thank you toeveryone who supports Beyond
Margins. If you're a listener, asponsor, or a partner of any
kind, I couldn't do this showwithout you.
You can support this show byleaving a rating and a review.
It really does help newlisteners hit play with more
confidence. And you can supportour sponsors by using the link
(46:21):
in your show notes. All of thishelps me keep this independent
podcast going and growing. Sothank you so much for supporting
me, and thank you for listening.
Until next time, stay calm.
So we have an incredible understanding of our
work ethic, but we don't have acomplimentary rest ethic to go
alongside that.
Susan Boles (00:11):
Hi there. I'm Susan Bowles, and this is Beyond
Margins, the show where wedeconstruct how to engineer a
calmer business. Right now,we're in the middle of a
miniseries where we're examiningthe common elements of calm
businesses. So we'redeconstructing what makes a calm
business actually calm andexploring how you can
intentionally design and buildcalm into your business. We've
(00:35):
covered the other elements inthe CALMER framework in previous
episodes, clarity, autonomy,lens of care, margins, and
efficient systems.
So if you haven't listened tothose episodes yet, I recommend
you head back to the beginningof the series and catch up.
Today's episode is all aboutrest and how to actually
(00:55):
architect rest into the fabricof your business. Most
productivity advice that youhear is all about hustling
harder, doing more, more, more.But in my experience, the more I
rest, the more productive I endup being. So figuring out how to
create sufficient margin in yourbusiness so that you can have
(01:16):
adequate rest is a criticalelement of building something
that's calmer and moresustainable.
My guest is Jordan Manney. She'sa coach who helps progressive
leaders, service providers, andchangemakers learn the radical
practice of rest so that theycan bring their visions to life.
She's someone who's helped meexamine my own default decisions
(01:40):
around rest or the lack thereof.In this conversation, we both
talk about our own challengesaround burnout and building rest
into our businesses. And we talkabout the systems we each use to
make sure that we don't end upthere again.
You are my go to for all thingsrest. It's been a challenge for
(02:05):
me personally to like, learn torest. Like, for for most of my
life, I felt like rest was kindof an annoyance. Like, sleeping
was that thing you had to do,but you didn't want to do. And I
think in general, we live in asociety where rest is not a
given.
It's not a default. It'ssomething to be steamrolled
(02:26):
over, to be ignored, to beeliminated. So why do you think
that is?
Jordan Maney (02:32):
Okay. So I wanna give, like, a macro bird's eye
view answer to this, and thenlike a more intimate example of
this. When I think of thisquestion of like, why why do we
freaking suck at rest? Why do wehate it so much? Why don't we
prioritize it?
Well, we didn't grow up learningthat, right? And we live, if we
(02:56):
want to take a big macro look atthis, we live in a country in
the United States of America, ina world predicated on labor,
especially free labor, andplentiful necessary rest doesn't
really live alongside, you know,exploitative labor, right? So we
(03:18):
hear things like work hard, orwork twice as hard to get half
as far, hustle, grind. Like wehear all these terms about like
how much we have to work, but wenever really hear anything about
how much we need to restalongside of that. And so we
think that's the part that wethrow away.
Like, oh, that doesn't make anysense. Like, we don't need that.
(03:38):
I just need to work harder.Like, how many times have you
said that to yourself where it'slike, oh, no. This problem that
I'm having right now, if I justwork harder, I'll be fine.
But, like, every now and again,you need a break. And so we have
an incredible understanding ofour work ethic, but we don't
have a complimentary rest ethicto go alongside that. And then
(04:02):
on an intimate, like, level tokind of see this as behavior.
Right? Look at the behavioryou've adopted around your ideas
on work, your ideas about yourlabor and not just
professionally.
If you are in a caregiving role,if you are a woman, if you are a
(04:25):
parent, especially if you are amother, we haven't really gotten
any clear direction on what itmeans to rest. For the clients
that I work with, it'sfascinating when I sit down with
really high achieving people whocare very deeply about some of
the hard hitting issues that wehave as a society and changing
(04:46):
those for the better. They'rethe hardest on themselves. I
just got to work harder. Like, Ijust got to find a way to fit
more hours into my day and fitmore tasks into my day.
But the hard work is unlearningsome of those behaviors and
learning to actually, like, restand what that specifically looks
like for you. So I would say, wehave a social structure setup
(05:10):
that does not support a rest. Wedon't have a behavior or model
of what it looks like to rest.And then we also don't know what
feels good to us. Like, whatkind of rest feels good to us?
And there's more than just, youknow, sleep.
Susan Boles (05:27):
We all are very familiar with, you know, the
hard work. Maybe hard work andmaybe play hard, but maybe we
just skip and completely forgetthat playing part, which is, I
think, more common. Yes. But youmentioned having a rest ethic to
go along with having a workethic, and I am very intrigued
(05:51):
by this idea. So tell me moreabout what a rest ethic might
look like.
Jordan Maney (05:58):
Yeah. So rest ethic is basically taking, like,
your practices of rest and likeputting them in places so that
they stay there. Right? So on anorganizational, like, front,
instead of saying, hey, makesure that you take your PTO,
helping people really prioritizethat, making sure that's
actually being done,understanding, you know, for
(06:19):
small teams and solopreneurs.There really there aren't a lot
of other decision makers besidesyou.
Right? And usually these are theclients that struggle the most
with taking time off and seeingthat time as productive. So
learning how to incorporate halfdays, vacations, learning not
just how to take the time off,but what to do within that time.
(06:42):
So a rest ethic to me is reallythe practice of your rest and
putting that together on anorganizational level, but also
on a personal level too. Right?
So I'm going to use myself as anexample, because it's my
favorite thing to do because itshows that like, I'm not the
wise woman on a mountain who haseverything figured out. Right? I
(07:02):
love telling people to rest, butI got COVID over the summertime
and my body was like, okay,like, take a break. Just chill.
And I was like, absolutely not.
We're not doing that. There arethings that I have to get done.
So let me just get those thingsdone. July is usually my
sabbatical month that I takeoff. I could have just chilled,
but I was like, nope, no, no,no, no, no.
(07:23):
I'm so glad it's not just me.It's not, it's truly not right
because these things are so likeingrained and conditioned for us
to be like, oh, no. I got I justif I just work harder versus
just like sit the hell down and,like, chill, you can do that.
Work ethic is about diligence.Right?
Diligence in getting somethingdone. Diligence in accomplishing
something, how you approach yourwork, and rest ethic is the same
(07:47):
thing. It's the practices thatyou have around rest that you
practice personally, that youpractice professionally, and how
you intend to approach rest andhow to stay in integrity with
that. Right? Like I was not inintegrity with myself when I was
like, I don't know, just likerunning around.
It took me a minute and we gotit back together. But those
(08:09):
things don't have to live incompetition with each other. I
really believe that, like, restand work, they coincide with
each other really beautifully. Ilove
Susan Boles (08:20):
how realistic your approach to rest is because I
think we are all humans, and Italk a lot about running a calm
business. And yet 95% of thetime, my own business looks
pretty calm relative to otherpeople. You know, I have good
rest practices built in. I havegood balance most of the time
(08:44):
relative to, like, workingversus having a life. But also,
I think it's really critical topoint out that, like, even
though you are somebody whotalks about rest all the time,
I'm somebody who talks about itbeing calm all the time, and
rest is a really importantcomponent of that.
It it's important to berealistic about the fact that
(09:04):
sometimes that's just not whathappens. And it's so important
to have a touch point or apractice or something that you
can come back to as kind of a areset of, I remember that this
is something that I value. Iremember that this is something
that is critical to producingreally good creative work and
(09:27):
being able to reset and not belike, man, I totally messed that
up. I'm never resting again.That all
Jordan Maney (09:34):
or nothing mentality is probably the
hardest thing to rewire andnavigate working with clients.
There's a word you said reset,but the word I love, I love that
just gives me like that butterygoodness feeling is return.
Like, life happens. Right? Idon't know what's going on with
the planets and the stars thispast summer.
(09:56):
Everything kind of just, like,went on clouded it. I would like
for it not to happen again, but,you know, it's been fun as the
seasons have changed. It's beenfun to return to those routines
and those practices that I know,like, fill me up and keep me
rested. I'm always going tohave, like, a really realistic
approach to things because lifehappens and it's a state of
transitions. Like, the amount ofclients who are like first time
(10:21):
moms transitioning into that andfiguring out, like, what are
your new routines now?
Like, everything's different.People who are leaving a
corporate or nonprofit job andcoming into their own consulting
or business, like what does itlook to transition through that?
So I feel like approaching restfrom a place of practicality and
(10:41):
not perfection is the only wayto actually make it sustainable.
Susan Boles (10:45):
The way I managed to build more rest into my
regular schedule, more rest intomy work time overall was that I
really had to approach it kindof the same as I approach, like,
a creative practice. Like, youhad to figure out, like, what
are the routines that make it sothat you're constantly coming
(11:06):
back to what is your baseline?What what looks sustainable for
you, and how do you make surethat even when things kind of
get a little chaotic or thingsget a little overwhelming, that
you have a practice or a routineor a touchpoint, something that
allows you to do that return?And for me, it ended up really
(11:27):
looking a lot like meintentionally doing creative
practices, like the samepractices I have around
podcasting or writing oranything like that. I had to
build those similar processesaround rest in order for it to
happen, and then I still messedit up, like, the first 85 times.
Like so one of my one of my,like, annual goals this year was
(11:49):
to take 12 weeks off of work. Iplanned it at the beginning of
the year and blocked out all andthis is kind of an an evolution
of what initially started outas, like, 6 weeks. And the first
time I tried to do the breakweek, you know, I set up my
calendar scheduling appointmentso nobody could schedule things,
and then I scheduled things.Yep. Yep.
(12:11):
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Yep. I think it took me, like, 4or 5 break weeks before I
actually managed to pull off alegitimate break week.
Jordan Maney (12:21):
That's one of the hardest things that clients
experience is not necessarilythe boundaries we communicate
with other people, butmaintaining the boundaries we
set like with ourselves. Yep.It's so easy to be like, I'll
just move this around. No. No.
I can add this in. So I I Itotally commend you and applaud
(12:41):
you for being able to do thatbecause it's people think it
sounds so lovely. Right? Andpeople think it's like so easy
to do, but when you're so usedto just like cranking things out
and just getting things done,doing things differently feels
like like a shock to the system.
Susan Boles (13:00):
I had some business friends that were kinda trying
to do the same thing at the samepoint, and we both noticed we're
doing the same thing. We blockedit off, no calls, out of office
message, yada yada yada, andthen somebody would be like, oh,
hey. Do you have a chance foryour call? And he'd be like, oh,
I really wanna actually talk tothat person, and and just
completely override it. And weall had very similar experiences
(13:22):
and that you're right.
We were really good withboundaries for other people, but
then we were the the onesoverriding those boundaries. It
took several reps.
Jordan Maney (13:31):
But, honestly, that's why I use the word
practice.
Susan Boles (13:34):
Mhmm.
Jordan Maney (13:35):
Because I think it takes the pressure off of, like,
this isn't a routine that youhave to perfect. This isn't
something you're gonna get rightthe first time, second, probably
not the 3rd or 4th. Right? Butit's something you keep coming
back to. There's no perfect endpoint.
You're just it's kind of anexperiment. It's play. Like,
rest doesn't require perfection.
Susan Boles (13:57):
That is an interesting point, and I think
that's also one of the piecesthat has been hardest for me to
unlearn is that, like, I am avery black and white thinker. I
am all or nothing. I very muchstruggle with the, like, in the
middle consistency. I callmyself I'm a potato or a
tornado. I am either going at a150% or I am going at 0.
(14:19):
There is no middle ground.
Jordan Maney (14:26):
The folks that I work with are either, you know,
like, solopreneurs, serviceproviders in leadership at,
like, a socially responsible,like, company, b corp, or
executive director of nonprofit.Like, that's kind of the lane.
Right? And it's fascinatingbecause all of them are
(14:46):
incredibly driven folks. And Ithink that all or nothing
thinking is something that,like, makes it so, like, of
course, somebody who has all ornothing thinking is gonna be in
business.
Right?
Susan Boles (14:57):
Or Well, yeah.
Jordan Maney (14:58):
Say, hell, yeah. I'm gonna start nonprofit or,
like, be in leadership some typeof way because there's, like,
that drive behind it. So it'sdifficult to learn how to be
like, okay. But you also have toit's great that you can put your
foot on the gas. Can you pullover to the side of the road and
refuel when you need to?
Susan Boles (15:16):
I had to kind of recognize that I am all or
nothing and then really leaninto that. So, like, I can't do
take a half day off. I'm eitheron and I'm doing stuff or I'm
off and I'm not doing anythingand leaning into figuring out,
like, what is the rightproportion of like, if I'm gonna
(15:39):
go at a 150 percent or 0%, howmuch 0% do I need to build in so
that over the course of a monthor a quarter or a year, you
know, I'm actually running atover on average, like, a 50,
60%. But on a day individual daybasis, it's not 50%. It's a 125.
(16:02):
0.
Jordan Maney (16:03):
That just means that you're a sprinter. Right?
But you can't you can't run amarathon on on sprints. Nope. So
Listen.
However try. You could try.
Susan Boles (16:14):
The me for the first 39 years of my life
absolutely believed you can runa marathon by sprinting. Same.
Jordan Maney (16:24):
Same. And I love that you that you lean into that
because a huge part ofunderstanding how you need to
rest specifically isunderstanding yourself. So same,
I take a whole month off in Julybecause I know I arrive at that
month like a person who's beenshipwrecked to shore. I'm like,
(16:46):
I told myself that I wouldn't dothat thing where March comes
along, and I take that veryliterally. And I just go crazy,
like, with work and, like andthen I get to July, but I build
that in because I know myself.
Mhmm. I know myself. I also knowhow, like, the seasonality of my
business and how, like,summertime, everybody's outside.
(17:07):
People are going on vacation.People are doing summer hours,
what have you.
Cool. So I can build in sometime for myself to chill. Right?
But it's a huge part ofunderstanding what type of rest
you need and what type of restthat you will actually practice.
So understanding yourself.
Right? It's really about justlike knowing what you need and
if you're the type of person whowants to sprint, your routines
(17:30):
and practices are gonna lookdifferent than someone who's a
marathon runner. And it's justabout acknowledging that, I
think.
Susan Boles (17:37):
Yeah. I see so many people end up having problems
because they are trying topractice either consistency in a
way that doesn't it it's justnot how they are consistent or
they're trying to do their workschedule or their rest schedule
based off of what they feel likethey're supposed to do. So much
(17:59):
of being able to figure out whatlooks sustainable is so
personal. You know, what'ssustainable for one person is
gonna be completely differentthan what is sustainable for
somebody else. I really had toidentify how I rest, how I work,
and then try to work with thatinstead of working against it.
Jordan Maney (18:20):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really about letting
water flow the way it actuallywants to flow versus, like,
trying to dam it up and thenbeing surprised. So it's, like,
not flowing the way you want itto.
Like I want the water to go.Right? I want the water to go
upstream so bad, but the river'slike, no, it's going it's going
downstream. So like that's nothow that happens. We kind of
(18:42):
come up against other people'sexpectation for, you know, how
we work, how we rest, constantlycome up against that and what we
actually need.
And one of the things that Ifind really beautiful about rest
is that it requires you to bepresent, and it requires you to
slow the hell down and pause fora minute and just, like, listen
(19:02):
to yourself. And in thosemoments, even though we don't
always like doing that, we don'tlike slowing now. But in those
moments, you can you can hearsome of that of, like, that's
actually not the way I work orthat's actually another thing I
need. And, I've learned thisfrom Briar Harvey, who is an
incredible accommodationsconsultant. I think she calls
(19:26):
herself the systems witch.
I just love that about her. Ilove that. In the training that
I got from her, she talked aboutaccommodations in relation to
neurodivergent folks. Right? AndI think a lot of, like, these
rest conversations and beingpractical and understanding
yourself and understanding whatyou really need specifically, so
(19:49):
much of that comes from my ownneurodivergence and
understanding that, like, oh, mybrain just works differently.
I just have to, like this is howwe arrive to a place of being
like, yeah. I'm gonna have toown a business or I'm just, I
don't know what I'm going to do.Yep. And just understanding and
honoring the fact that, like,you're not broken. Nothing is
wrong with you.
You're just different and youoperate in a different way. And
(20:13):
how can you accommodate what youneed, right, in your business
and in your life. And to get tothat place, you have to
understand what you need first.
Susan Boles (20:24):
And if anybody is, like, unrealized neurodivergent
for any part of your life,that's the hardest part is
going, oh, I have to stopsuppressing and ignoring my
needs and start paying attentionto them. I don't really know how
to do that. Interesting.
Jordan Maney (20:40):
It's difficult to arrive to, but when you get
there, you're it's it makes ahuge difference because it's
about stating what you need,understanding what you need, and
understanding what you need, notfrom a place of judgment.
Because sometimes we're like,well, I need this, but I should.
No. No shoulds. No shoulds, noshames.
This is what you need. And Ithink from there, you can
(21:02):
customize what rest you need toaccommodate that. Right? So,
like, an example for me is,like, I know business wise, ADHD
brain is always firing offideas. And I think for the 1st
couple years, used to be awedding planner.
I was always just kind of like,oh, new idea. New shiny object.
(21:23):
Oh, I wanna play with this. Oh,I wanna do this. But, like, what
you said at the beginning of thepodcast about, like, finding
processes and practices thatyou're just coming back to,
returning to that baseline,simplifying.
In my context, I needed a simplebusiness, and that meant cutting
away a lot of the little offersthat I had, simplifying it down.
(21:45):
And I'm going to flip thisquestion. So for me, I would
ask, I, I would be like, oh, Iwant to give everybody, I want
to give clients like everything.But the question I had to ask
myself was like, what can theyreceive right now? And I wanna
flip that question to listenersas when you are starting to
(22:05):
better understand your needs andyour rest, what can you receive
right now?
Like, as much as it's like, ohmy god. I wanna go take I'm
gonna take a 3 month break. Canyou receive that right now? And
it's okay if it's like,actually, no. I wouldn't know
what to do with myself, and itprobably wouldn't be restful.
I think just having thatconversation, like, builds that
inner relationship between,like, what needs do I have? How
(22:29):
can I accommodate that? Whatneeds do I have and how can I
accommodate that? And that's ahuge part of rest too.
Susan Boles (22:34):
My neurodivergence and my journey towards rest
ended up being a very similarpath, sort of involuntarily
because I had a huge burnout andcould not function anymore. So I
didn't really have a choiceabout it. It was an involuntary
kind of thing. But I I thinkyou're right. Whether you are
(22:55):
neurodivergent or whether you'reneurotypical, I think
understanding and really deeplypaying attention to what you
need, how you work best, whenyou work best.
What does that what does thatactually look like for you? And
the best part about being abusiness owner is that you can
(23:16):
make that look whatever it needsto look like. And I think so
many times we ignore thatbecause we feel like we should
be working 9 to 5 or we shouldbe having meetings or we should
be not working on the weekendsor working on the weekends or
not working in the morning.Like, there's so many constructs
that the beauty of having yourown business is being able to
(23:39):
make it look however you want itto look. But also I think
sometimes we come up against a Ionly know work that looks like
this and trying to envisionsomething different is really
difficult.
I did an interview for theseries about switching to a 4
day work week. And evensomething as on the surface,
(24:01):
it's pretty simple to switch toa 4 day work week because you
like, you just stop work. You'rejust like, I don't work on
Fridays or I don't work onMondays or whatever. Like,
logistically, that's not verycomplicated, but it is really,
really difficult for folks toimagine a different schedule
than Monday through Friday, 9 to5 or whatever that looks like.
Jordan Maney (24:24):
Should is such a shit word. I don't have a a
better way of saying that. Ihate the word should so much
because there's so much shameattached to it. I feel like when
we come up against what we needand envisioning and practicing
something different versus likewhat we know, there's a canyon
(24:49):
between, like, awareness andaction. And I feel like in
between that, we gotta giveourselves a shit ton of grace.
Like, so like, a heavy helping.The hamburger helper equivalent
of grace. Like, we just justslather it on. K? Because
because we all need it, and it'sso normal.
(25:12):
And it's so common thatoftentimes when we're like, oh
god. I need something different.I need a schedule that looks
different. Maybe you're somebodywho does their best work at like
midnight or you do your bestwork at 3 PM, whatever that
looks like for you. You justhave to have those, like, those
moments of radical acceptanceand be like, okay, but that's
not what I need.
And that's not how I work andkeep it moving from there.
Susan Boles (25:36):
We are going to take a quick break to hear from
our sponsors. But when we comeback, Jordan and I are getting
into where folks get tripped upwhen they start building more
rest into their work. And we'llalso talk tactics. So how do you
actually start taking steps toengineer rest? We have talked a
(25:59):
lot about what rest looks likefor us where we run into
problems.
But stepping back out to thatmacro area again, we live in a
society where it's actually kindof difficult. You sort of have
to fight pretty hard to makesure you're building in adequate
rest, that you actually getadequate rest because that's not
the default. That's not whatwe're expected to do. So kind of
(26:22):
on the macro level, where do yousee that causing problems? How
does that present itself?
Jordan Maney (26:29):
I try and make sure anything I do, people at
least leave with thisdefinition, and I promise it'll
come back into this explanation.So the way that we define rest
at the Radical Joy headquarters,rest is how you eat. It is the
energy, attention, and time thatyou return to yourself. Why I
love that word return. Right?
So when we say, like, whatproblems does a lack of energy,
(26:53):
attention, and time return toself cause you hear it
differently. We've all had thismoment where, like, you get an
email from a client and you'rejust kind of like, if you ask me
one more question, are youserious right now? Like, where
were this resentment builds up?Because maybe expectations
(27:13):
weren't set at the beginning andnow, like, your ability to
return energy, attention, andtime to yourself is now, like,
severely limited. Right?
So I've seen a lot of resentmenttowards clients, resentment
towards partners that you'reworking with. These are the
clients that I've worked with,like, a real difficult time
(27:34):
being able to to relax, like,constantly feeling like you have
to react and being activated,like, constantly responsive.
It's, Ron Swanson in parks andrec when he's in that circle
desk that, like, just keepsgoing around and around. It's
that feeling like, oh, I can'ttake a break. I can't take my
foot off the gas.
I've seen on, like, a physicallevel, like, any unexpressed
(27:58):
emotions, particularly anger,higher cortisol in your body,
blood pressure issues,autoimmune disorders that pop
up, relationship strain, like,there's so many things that a
lack of rest impacts and, like,creates and worsens. And
oftentimes, we will attribute itto something else. I think the
(28:22):
way rest is taught to us, likerest in peace. It's something
you do when you die. We neversay it really in a positive way.
Nope. It's always kind of likethe end of something doom, and
it doesn't it doesn't have to bedoom. It could just be quiet. It
could be a day at the beach. Itcould be a walk with your
friends.
Like, rest doesn't have to bethis huge heavy, like, cloud
(28:47):
that hangs over you. It'ssomething that is a tool that
allows you to have a betterbusiness, have better
relationships, have a betterpositive self talk with
yourself. So for the clientsthat I've had, the people that I
have worked with, usually thislooks like an individual level,
like physical issues startpopping up once you've been
(29:07):
burned out for a while, problemssleeping, blood pressure
problems, digestive issues, likeanxiety on an organizational
level. It's I don't fuck withher. I don't like her, but,
like, it's a lot of, like,chattering and, like, resentment
and anger towards people thatyou're working with.
And then on a personal level,because we can all pretend as,
(29:29):
small business owners, it's easyto think that soon as as soon as
I clock out, none of thisaffects me when I go home. Yes.
It does. So like what'shappening under the surface with
your relationships? Are youfeeling comfortable enough to
communicate your needs whenyou're not even meeting them?
It takes a toll and it's justvery interesting that we're so
(29:51):
quick to name anything else, butnot arrive at like, hey. It's I
need more rest.
Susan Boles (29:57):
It feels like it is in conflict with that work
ethic. Right? It feels like ifwe take the time to rest or we
give ourselves the space that weneed or we accommodate ourselves
that we're not working hardenough, we're not hustling hard
enough, we're not gonnaaccomplish all our goals. And at
least in my experience, I foundit to be completely the
(30:18):
opposite. So for me, like whenI'm getting stressed or I'm
getting overwhelmed, myinstantaneous trigger is to work
more.
It's do more, work harder, keepgoing longer. So when I started
trying to say, okay. Cool. Mydefault now, I'm gonna try and
train myself so my defaultaction when I'm getting
overwhelmed or I'm gettingstressed, my default action is
(30:40):
going to be to walk away andtake a break. And for me, that
has resulted in, honestly, someof my best, most creative work
ever in so much less timebecause my brain has what it
needs and it can functionproperly, which is important.
Jordan Maney (30:59):
Oftentimes when you're getting those cues, it's
like the brain, it's just like,I can keep going. I can keep
going, but the body will tellyou, like, yo. We need a break.
You gotta stop. And I thinkthat's beautiful to learn that
if you're feeling overwhelmed orparticularly activated or just,
like, stressed out, it is notyour body is literally sending
(31:21):
up the flare to go take a break,not to dig in deeper.
We're trying to help peopleretool their understanding that
it's not a versus. It reallyisn't in relationship, rest and
work operate in relationship toone another. It's not in
competition. And when you canstart to kind of heal some of
(31:43):
that for yourself internally,everything gets better.
Susan Boles (31:50):
Coming back down from the macro into how this has
affected you, clearly rest isimportant to you. I mean, you
decided to base a large part ofyour business around this idea
of helping other people rest,but why was that so important to
you?
Jordan Maney (32:09):
I was always a kid who put a lot of internal
pressure on myself to, like,succeed and achieve. And so,
like, super overachiever. Andit's funny looking back that,
like, when I would get to the tosummer break, for the most part,
when I got a summer break,because I'd always do some like
activity camp, something thattook up the whole time. But when
(32:32):
I did have a summer break, Iwould just be like, don't talk
to me. I don't want to see anyof these kids that I go to
school with.
I don't want to do anything. Isee my break. And that's how I
learned how to rest was byarriving to it, completely
burned out. So it was when I gotto college where I started to
notice that those behaviors thatI had around like achieving and
(32:53):
working. The screws kind of cameloose because I didn't have the
same like support system that Idid when I was in high school.
You're on your own. And I didn'tknow what I needed. I didn't
know that I needed to takebreaks frequently. I didn't know
a lot of the accommodations thatI now under have a better
understanding of. For mepersonally, it led to a lot of,
(33:17):
panic attacks.
It's been so interesting kind oflooking back and seeing how rest
has been important to me becauseI didn't know what it was and I
didn't know how badly I neededit. And then when I started my
first business as a weddingplanner, don't know if you know
anything about the weddingindustry.
Susan Boles (33:34):
I'm sure that was great for rest.
Jordan Maney (33:38):
So good for rest. It was not. It really was
predicated on everything thatburned me out. And I had this,
like, moment in late 2018 whereI had a client, we didn't it
wasn't working. I couldn't restbecause I wasn't advocating for
(33:59):
myself.
And so I didn't know how to reston a personal level. And then in
a professional business level, Ididn't know what that looked
like. And so it became reallyimportant to me, you know, 2020
happened and I, I feel terriblesaying this. When Tom Hanks
posted that glove on Instagram,he was like, me and Rita got,
you know, corona. I rememberbeing like, oh, this is going to
(34:23):
impact, like, the next decade,but then I felt an instant surge
of relief that I didn't have todo my spring weddings that were
coming up, up, like, the nextweek.
That's a sign. Oh, that's a signof something. Oh my god. So 2020
was a really pivotal year inthat regard of understanding,
like, there's something hereabout rest personally, rest
(34:47):
professionally, and specificallyfor the people that I had been
working with who were in thesocial impact socially
responsible, social justice typeof sphere about, like, wanting
to run these races and changethese things, but also not doing
it in a sustainable way. So,like, we're running this
marathon with this torch, andthen the torch blows out, and
(35:09):
we're like, oh, we're just inthe dark, and we don't know
where we're going anymore.
Because I had to learn theprocess for myself, and it felt
disruptive and scary, and likesomething was wrong with me for
a while. I wanted to make surethat nobody else had to navigate
that process alone. And itdidn't have to be scary, and it
didn't have to be a place thatyou arrived at with shame and
(35:32):
judgment, but it could besomething that you chose to
advocate for yourself and tokeep your mission sustainable.
Honestly, I think society wouldbe better if everybody who
figured this out didn't have togo through that part first.
Nobody should have to burn out.
My business adviser always says,are you a multivitamin? Are you
(35:55):
aspirin? And she's like, it'sharder to sell the multivitamin.
It's a lot easier to sell theaspirin. You're in pain right
now?
Go get the aspirin. And so I'llhave clients who are at that
place where I'm their aspirin.Yeah. Where they're like, look.
I'm about to burn downeverything.
I'm tired. I can't function theway that I used to function.
(36:15):
Like, I'm in therapy, butsomething else is going on. And
I think it's this thing, and Ithink you can help me. Can you
help me?
And I'm like, sure. And forthem, it's like, being the
lighthouse keeper of, like, youjust got shipwrecked, you came
to shore. Here's some food,here's a blanket, let's get you
like warmed up, and then we'llbegin. Right? And then for other
(36:37):
people, it is more of like amultivitamin type of situation
where it's like, what are thingsI can do to prevent burnout?
And then I have people who arelike, what what do I need to do
to recover from this? Becausewe're already in it.
Susan Boles (36:52):
When people arrive at that point where they realize
I need to rest or I need thingsto feel better. For the most
part, people are at a pointwhere they are overwhelmed.
They're, you know, burnt out andtheir brain's not working. You
don't make great decisions fromthat place. So where do you
(37:12):
recommend folks start?
Jordan Maney (37:15):
So I went to college for journalism, and one
of my professors, who I shallnot name, love to talk about
killing your darlings. Like, ifthere's something that thing
that you really love, that'sthat interview or quote that you
really love, whatever, but youhave to kill it sometimes
because it just doesn't workwith the flow of the story. I
hated that because I'm like, no.I wanna keep my darlings. I
(37:36):
wanna keep everything.
If you are at a place whereyou're looking around, that
little meme of that dog sittingon a stool and everything is
burning around it, you are atthe kill your darlings phase and
you need to give yourself, like,30 minutes, sit down with a
piece of paper, and write downeverything that it is that you
do. And then you're gonna haveto start the painful, not fun,
(37:59):
but absolutely necessary processof just crossing some of these
things out. If you are at aplace of, like, complete and
total burnout, you have toacknowledge that you don't have
the capacity that you once did.And that's not something to be
ashamed of. That's just thereality of the moment.
So maybe that means if this wasa small business owner, maybe we
(38:21):
look at their marketing and it'slike pick the one that you want
to do. Maybe it's not Pinterestpodcast, Instagram, LinkedIn,
Facebook, newsletter sub stack.Maybe it's not all that. Maybe
it's just one. And maybe wechange the frequency of that.
Cool. But you have to take stockand inventory of all of the
(38:41):
things that you are doingbecause your capacity is
different, and we have to adjustfor what your capacity is right
now, not what it was. And that'shard because we loved what it
was, but what it was got us towhat it is. So we have to make
some adjustments. If you'relistening and you're in that
(39:03):
place where you're just like,everything fucking sucks, and
I'm just like, over all of it.
Cool. Let's turn the volume downto 1 as much as we possibly can.
And if you're at a place of, oh,well, I can't do that. I can't
do that. Be really honest withyourself about whether it's I
(39:25):
can't, or I don't want tobecause this might make me
uncomfortable.
Or I don't want to becausepeople might think that
something's wrong with me,darling, something is, you're
burned out. Something haschanged. We have to acknowledge
that. So I would start there ofjust like take an inventory with
(39:45):
the clearest of eyes, pretendthat this is a friend. If you
really don't want to judgeyourself, pretend this is a
friend and just be real aboutwhat needs to come off of that
list, because you have toacknowledge where you are if you
want to get to somewhere else.
So a lot of conversations aroundrest, which I found interesting
(40:12):
who some of these people aretalking about rest, who like 2
years ago were like, oh, no, no,no. You need to hustle. And now
it's like, no, guys, rest.Interesting. I find that a lot
of the times when we're talkingabout changes, habits, health,
but specifically about rest,we're not acknowledging the
reality for some folks.
(40:34):
The framework that I built, Isay rest with an equity lens for
a reason. If you are in a placewhere you are the sole caregiver
for maybe like your family, andyou're also the breadwinner, the
financial support for yourfamily, your rest is going to
look different than somebodywho's not. If you have a
(40:59):
marginalized or oppressedidentity, your rest may look
different than somebody who'snot. It's necessary to
acknowledge all of who you areand all of what you are
experiencing if you want to getrest that feels restful. And
it's okay to say like, hey, thisseason might suck because I
(41:22):
don't have the community tosupport me.
I don't have a grandparent herewho could watch the kids. I
don't have a business partnerthat I can lean on for this
season. If you are in that placewhere the reality is cold and
dark and it does not feelcomfortable right now, The
(41:42):
reframe and work for you is notjust about like, okay. I got to
figure out what my my rest ethicis, but also just acknowledging
like, hey, it might take melonger than other people. It
might look different, waydifferent than other people.
I might at best get care andmight not necessarily get rest.
And that's okay to acknowledgethat. And I wish more people
(42:09):
when we talk about being able totake our 12 weeks or being able
to take a sabbatical, we arriveat those things with such guilt,
because we know that there arepeople who can't do that. We,
you know, remember images of ourparents, like busting their ass
to get things done. And we'relike, well, there's no way that
I could take this vacation.
I don't deserve to have this.No. Rest is a necessity. Your
(42:31):
rest is necessary no matter whoyou are, no matter what
circumstances you have. And it'slargely important that we
acknowledge that for ourselvesindividually and also
collectively.
I think some of the biggestobstacles to being able to
achieve for us is understanding,like, where in this labor
(42:51):
spectrum we lie in terms of whatpeople expect and what people
want to extract out of us. Yeah.And also, like, what do we need?
And can we approach those thingswithout judgment and shame?
Because I've heard that a lotwhere, like, it must be nice
that you get to take your Julyoff.
Reframing that for people ofbeing, like, I can acknowledge,
(43:12):
like, that for myself and stilltake that time without feeling
guilty about it because feelingguilty about it is is kinda how
we got here.
Susan Boles (43:22):
Yep. I also one of the tiny acts that for me is so
important is, like, when you seesomebody's out of office message
and they're like, hey. I'mtaking a week off. Celebrating
them and pointing out how proudyou are of them for, like, being
able to do this thing and forprioritizing their own needs. I
would love to see more of thatinstead of the, it must be nice.
Jordan Maney (43:46):
If I was president of the world, everybody would
get, like, at least a month'svacation, monthly, voucher to go
get, like, vacation, monthly,voucher to go get like massages
because they're wonderful, andaccess to your personal
therapist. Like, that would bethat would be my platform.
Right?
Susan Boles (43:59):
I feel like the world would be a much better
place.
Jordan Maney (44:03):
There'd be no more, like, road rage incidents.
Everybody would just be like,how are you doing? But but
you're right. Like, approachingthese things, not with a sense
of guilt or shame and reallyasking yourself, like, when you
feel that must be nice energycoming up. Right?
Or you feel like, well, damn,when am I going to be able to
take a break? Asking yourselfthe question, who benefits from
(44:27):
I don't use the word, I useburnout for marketing reasons,
but once I get clients in, Idon't use the word burnout
anymore. I say unrest because Iwant them to hear it, hear the
body and the mind, the lack ofrest, and how that comes from
like systemic things, but alsobehaviors that we adopt and
practice ourselves and how we dohave some agency there. Who
(44:51):
benefits from your unrest?
Susan Boles (44:54):
I think that is a fantastic place to wrap up
because I that's what I wantpeople to sit with. Rest isn't
just about sleeping enough. It'sabout giving your brain and your
body the space they need tobring our best selves to our
work and to our team. Rest isn'tthe last letter in my calmer
(45:17):
framework because it's the leastimportant item or the one that
comes last in the whole workflowof building a calmer business.
Rest isn't something that youhave to earn.
It's the bare minimum, and it'ssomething you need to
consciously build space for,build systems around, and be
(45:37):
consistently touching base on.In some seasons of your
business, you might need morerest or maybe a different kind
of rest, but it's something thatalways has to be there in order
for you to do your best work ina sustainable way. So take a
minute right now and startthinking about how you could
build in just a tiny bit morerest into your week and into
(46:00):
your work. A big thank you toeveryone who supports Beyond
Margins. If you're a listener, asponsor, or a partner of any
kind, I couldn't do this showwithout you.
You can support this show byleaving a rating and a review.
It really does help newlisteners hit play with more
confidence. And you can supportour sponsors by using the link
(46:21):
in your show notes. All of thishelps me keep this independent
podcast going and growing. Sothank you so much for supporting
me, and thank you for listening.
Until next time, stay calm.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.