October 22, 2024 • 40 mins
Taking care of people in or around your business isn't the default when it comes to business and what we're taught business should be. How is this way of doing business actually hurting us? And, how can we change our systems to be more authentically people-first?
We're continuing in our mini-series on my calmer framework for a calmer business. This week, we're diving into lens of care and how operating with a lens of care can decrease panic and urgency in our daily work.
We're joined by Heather ONeill, the anti-capitalist business coach for tech and service businesses, and founder of UX consultancy, Pixels for Humans. She puts people over profits and believes that you can make money while doing good.
On this episode, we learn how businesses can prioritize people over profits, especially during challenging times; how to find and build community in an authentic way; and the impact of white supremacy on our default way of doing business.
Listen to the Full Episode to Hear:
- How businesses can measure success beyond revenue and longevity
- How care-centric practices contribute to a calmer business environment.
- What an anti-capitalist approach can look like in business
Learn more about Heather ONeill:
Learn more about me, Susan Boles:
We value your thoughts and feedback. Feel free to share them with Susan here. Your input is not just valuable, it's crucial in shaping future episodes.
- (00:00) - Introduction: Building a Supportive Business Community
- (00:28) - Exploring the Elements of a Calm Business
- (01:04) - Operating Through a Lens of Care
- (02:03) - Challenging Traditional Business Norms
- (11:50) - Building Systems of Care in Business
- (23:54) - The Power of Community and Relationships
- (38:28) - Conclusion: Designing a Sustainable and Calmer Business
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Susan Boles (00:04):
None of us could survive being in business alone.
So how do you build systems thatcan help support and care for
you and your business? Where doyou find that community that
will pick you up when you're inthe dip or celebrate with you
when you close a big new client?Hey there, I'm Susan Boles, and
this is Beyond Margins. The showwhere we deconstruct how to
(00:26):
engineer a calmer business.
We're in the middle of a miniseries where we're exploring the
common elements of a calmbusiness. So, what makes a calm
business actually calm? How doyou engineer that into your
business? Well, there are 8elements that all calm companies
have in common. Clarity,autonomy, a lens of care,
(00:49):
margins, efficient systems,rest, and reduced urgency.
Now, we've talked about clarityand autonomy in previous
episodes, so if you haven'talready listened to those, I
highly recommend you go back andcheck them out. Today, we're
talking about operating througha lens of care. What do I mean
by care? Well, the definition Ilike best is that care is
(01:12):
providing what is needed for thewell-being or protection of a
person or thing. So when we runour businesses through a lens of
care, we provide for andprioritize the well-being of the
people involved in our business.
So that might be you, your team,your clients, or even the
community around you. When youlead with care, building
(01:34):
something calmer, it almosttakes care of itself, because no
one's well-being is enhanced bypanic, by urgency, or chaos. My
guest today is Heather O'Neil.She's an anti capitalist
business coach for tech andservice businesses, And she's
the founder of a UX consultancycalled Pixels For Human. Heather
is someone who really walks thewalk here.
(01:56):
She puts people over profits andreally believes that you can
make money while still doinggood. So under the heading of
taking care of people, or Ithink really even just giving a
crap about the people in oraround your business is not
normally the default when itcomes to business and what we're
kind of taught and ingrainedthat business should actually
(02:18):
be. There's this phrase, it'snot personal it's business. That
is, you know, the go tocatchphrase of all business
owners everywhere. And Ipersonally hate it, but where do
you think it comes from?
And how is that mentality kindof hurting us both as business
owners and just as human beingsexisting in the world?
Heather O'Neill (02:37):
Yeah. It's such an interesting phrase because I
think there's moments when itcan be helpful, like when you're
seeing someone's behavior at youand then taking it as a personal
referendum. But most of thetime, the way it's wielded is as
a explanation for exploitation.Right? When people say, oh, it's
not personal.
It's just business. They'reusually justifying their choices
(02:57):
to cause harm, to exploit, or totreat people like trash without
consequence, as if businessmakes it okay to be an asshole.
Susan Boles (03:05):
Well, and I think that's the culture that we have
been brought up to believe thatif it's business, you can get
away with all manner ofhorrible, exploitative actions.
So I love that you brought thatin because I think that really
hits the point of the harm thatcomes from business. I don't
think it has to be that way, butI do think it's portrayed that
(03:28):
way a lot.
Heather O'Neill (03:29):
Yeah. And I think it fits in with the larger
society of individualism thathas grown up as a very popular,
like way of existing. Right? Wedon't live in communities
anymore. We live in our ownhouses and our own spaces and
with this belief that we don'towe anybody anything.
And on the surface, that'stechnically true, but also we
(03:51):
are humans, and we do owe eachother, like, support and care
and existence just by the natureof we're all in this together
and without each other, weactually, none of us could
survive.
Susan Boles (04:00):
I agree with that. As I was getting ready for this
conversation, I'm on TikTok and,we're getting ready for school
to start. And there's this wholediscussion about communal school
supplies and apparently a wholesegment of the population that
really are offended by the ideaof kids sharing school supplies
(04:22):
and saw somebody post a commentabout, if I spring for Crayola,
I don't want my kid to have touse rose art crowns for an
afternoon. And I thought thatjust kind of really exemplified
the individualistic mentalitythat we have that I think is
ultimately does do a lot of harmto us as a culture, but
(04:43):
particularly in the businessspace where we are deeply
ingrained to be competitive, tobe anti community in a lot of
sense.
Heather O'Neill (04:52):
Yeah. That also comes back to, like, beliefs
about who owns what and whatpower people have and how power
looks. Because a lot of times,this is about power over or
power above rather than powerwith. And I think that shapes a
lot of our our systems and ourthinking when it comes to things
like school supplies and who'sbetter than who. And I have
(05:14):
sprung for the Crayola crayonsso my kid can feel special or
I'm filling some personal need,or I just think I'm better than
you.
Right? Because I have power overyou. And if we're all sharing, I
lose that and I feel like I'velost something. And in business,
that's always the case. There'sso much of the business dynamic
that is around who has morepower in the deal, who has more
(05:37):
authority, who who's theimportant one.
Right? And when you frame it asthat, and you failed to see it
as anything other than like, Ihave to get mine often at the
expense of you or else. Then youcan't build meaningful
relationships, which is ironicbecause if you talk to anyone,
(05:57):
they will always have a story oflike somebody going out on a
limb for them. Somebody doing afavor above and beyond, but they
never make the connection fromthat to, and I should pay it
forward or that community iswhat brought me here.
Susan Boles (06:11):
That's a really key part. And I think it's so
important to recognize thecommunity that we're all kind of
de facto a part of whether webelieve we are or not, but this
aspect of paying it forward orbeing in community with people
that are already in communitywith you, it's a really
(06:33):
interesting thread that I wouldlove to pull
Heather O'Neill (06:34):
a little bit more. It's something where
people treat it like a given ortake it for granted that they
should get something, theyshould get an exception. Because
with within ourselves, the theway humans work. Right? Like, we
see ourselves as always theexception or can understand why
we might do things thatotherwise on the surface might
look terrible.
But when we judge other people'sactivities, we judge them based
(06:57):
on the rule. Like, oh, thatperson's stealing bread because
they're a bad person. But when Istole bread, it's because I was
really hungry and starving. Orthat person is doing that
business tactic because they'rebad, but I'm doing it because I
don't have any other way tosurvive. And so we can always
find excuses for ourselves, butwe rarely extend that to the
(07:17):
other people doing it.
And that comes through withexceptions as well. Like, oh, I
got this opportunity and thisperson went out on a limb for me
because I'm worth going out on alimb for, but I can't do that
for someone else because maybethey'll take advantage of me or
I don't want to give up what Ihave.
Susan Boles (07:34):
The, if I take care of somebody else that's less for
me is such a deeply ingrainedpiece of business that I think
often it just happens bydefault, but it is like a
foundational piece of so manydifferent business practices and
things that were taught aresupposed to be like when you're
negotiating a deal withsomebody, you have to keep the
(07:56):
power, you have to control theenvironment and make sure you're
sitting higher than they are.
Heather O'Neill (08:03):
One of my family members just bought a car
and they went into a dealershipand they got promised all these
things, and none of that camethrough in the paperwork. I
looked over the paperworkafterwards, and I was like, hey.
They didn't do the things theysaid, and they had to actually
go back to the dealershipbecause it was this whole power
trip of how the car dealershipwanted to make money at any
cost. Those are the things thatmake people hate business and
(08:26):
hate sales. But most of thepeople I talk to, you don't
actually hate sales.
You hate sales as it ispresented as the default. Right?
You hate business as ispresented as the default because
it assumes and requires you tocare about yourself at the
expense of other people. Veryfew people sit in that space
naturally. Like, you look atkids, they care about each
(08:47):
other.
Right? Like, as humans, we arewired to care about each other
because that's how we havesurvived historically. And when
it comes to business, we say, fall that right out the window.
Right? I think there's a lot ofspace for us to reconsider,
like, can we choose to believethat there's something
(09:09):
different?
Like, I am a consultant. I am abusiness coach. I work in user
experience. And I actuallybelieve, like, there's enough
room for every one of us whowants to be in this space with
me. I'm not worried that someoneis gonna take business from me
because they can't.
I can't serve all the possiblepeople who could want my
services, number 1. And number2, like, if there's none for me
(09:31):
left, cool. I will go dosomething else. This is not the
only thing I could do with mylife. And what I actually want
for all of us is a society wherewe have the space and the care
for each other so that we don'thave to hustle culture.
We don't have to do it allalone. We don't feel like we are
shoved into these corners. I metsomeone recently who they have
(09:53):
every side hustle I think youcould ever have. They DoorDash,
they TaskRabbit. I think theyalso work as, like, a barista
somewhere just to supportthemselves and their family.
And that should not be the,like, default of how we operate.
And we should not constantly belooking to, like, minimize our
costs at the sake of, like,other people's lives.
Susan Boles (10:15):
Our culture today, and particularly like
millennials and younger, youknow, there's been so few
opportunities because so much ofit has just been sucked up into
the corporate structure ofbusinesses that you almost have
to, it feels like have multiplethings or multiple side hustles
(10:36):
or always be working. Or if youhave a hobby, turn it into a
business. Oh, you knit, sellyour creations on Etsy. And I
think it does such a disserviceto us as human beings to take
our interests and monetize them,but also to just have the kind
of environment where peoplecan't just do their work and be
(11:01):
able to survive comfortably andhave a living wage. It's just
ridiculous.
Heather O'Neill (11:06):
When you recognize that, yes, we live in
society and these soulfulconstructs are in place, but
they are also as impermanent asanything else. We can change
them if we want to. No, I can'tgo tomorrow and change all the
legislation that controls howbusinesses work. But I can start
by changing how I run mybusiness. And I think that's the
(11:27):
thing that people miss is thatwhen they say, oh, I don't have
systemic organizational power tochange the whole system.
They go, I can't do anything.And that's that's where I think
a lot of the confusion comes in.You don't actually have to
follow the business rulesbecause they're just as made up
as everything else. And so in mybusiness, I don't follow the
(11:48):
business rules in the same way.
Susan Boles (11:50):
We are going to take a really quick break to
hear from our sponsors. And thenwhen we come back, Heather and I
will get into her rules andpractices that help her build
systems of care into herbusiness. You are an anti
capitalist business coach. Youoperate your business in a way
(12:11):
that is as close to anticapitalist as you can within the
context of living in acapitalist society. So what are
some of the ways that you havebuilt kind of care and community
into your own businesspractices?
Heather O'Neill (12:25):
I think one of the big ways that I do that is I
build relationships for the sakeof their own existence. I have a
lot of people that I stayconnected to in the business
world, And
Susan Boles (12:37):
it would
Heather O'Neill (12:37):
be really cool if that led to some sales or
some cash for me. And also, ifit never does, I still wanna
maintain those relationshipsbecause I still care about those
people. There's a big boom oflayoffs right now, so there's a
big lot of people networking andtheir networking involved
showing up in your DMs andgoing,
Susan Boles (12:54):
hey, can you meet with me?
Heather O'Neill (12:56):
Because I like to get all these questions
answered. Or, hey, I wanna applyfor this job. Can you give me a
referral with no other context?There's no relationship there.
And while you can't go back intime and like, be like, oops, I
meant to build a relationship.
Showing that you care outside ofwhat someone can do for you is
the first step. So that's one ofthe things that I make a huge
(13:17):
priority in my business is tointentionally build
relationships with people who Imay or may not end up doing
business with, or who may or maynot end up referring business to
me because I want to haverelationships with that. Another
thing I do is I make it apractice to put my money where
my mouth is, if you will. Somost of the time, the best
(13:39):
impact you can make financiallyis direct giving. That has the
least tax benefit for you.
It's not always easy for peopleto be like, oh, I wanna do that
because you still get chargedfor, like, the taxes on the
revenue. But it is the bestthing you do. And so when I look
at building community, I say,how can my business and the
revenue that I bring in bedispersed out to the local
community, be dispersed out tothe Internet community that I'm
(14:01):
a part of, even if I don't get atax break for it. And then
building relationships withinthat too. Like the people that
you are giving money to are, isit just, I gave money and now
I'm done or are you willing toconnect with those communities?
So it's always coming back tolike your relationship to
things. Which I think is thehardest thing for people because
(14:22):
it's vulnerable and it requiresyou to get messy with other
humans. And in business, nobodywants to be messy because at the
end of the day, we're all herefor a transaction. And to a
certain extent, that is true.But I also think there's room to
care.
The last thing, and this one'sgonna sound wild at first, but I
I will explain it to make sense,is I have contracts. And the
(14:43):
reason that I think contractsare one of the best ways to say
that I care is I set up mycontracts with the intention
that whatever I've promised youin our business relationship, I
will hold to even if I become anasshole tomorrow. You can hold
me to my word and you don't justhave to trust me. I think a lot
of people think that if you careabout someone, you don't have a
contract because you just trustme. But no, the contract is the
(15:06):
biggest indicator of trustbecause it says that even if we
have a big old fight and we'renot friends anymore, I'm still
gonna do the thing for you thatI said I'm gonna do for you.
Susan Boles (15:15):
I love that because I am a big proponent of honestly
solid business processes being acaretaking step. Right? So if
you are communicating clearlyhow your process works, That is
a very solid way to show careand respect to your clients,
(15:37):
because you are saying, here'show this things works. You don't
have to have any questions aboutit. You don't have to worry that
I'm not going to show up on aspecific time at a specific
deadline, even to the pointwhere like automations can be a
point of care.
And that's the most operationsgeeky I ever get. You know, when
(15:57):
somebody comes on, on board as aclient and they automatically
get a thoughtful welcome email,that's written, not like you're
a robot, but like you're aperson and you can do both being
a person and automating things.They do feel cared for. And so I
think I love the, be for you.The contract is one of those
(16:18):
things, because I think it is anunderrated part of the kind of
care centric culture you canbuild in your business, where
those are parts where we wouldnormally like traditionally
think, oh, those are like thebusinessy part of things, but
doing those parts of businesswell and with a eye towards
(16:40):
taking care of your client ortaking care of your team even,
they can be a really powerfulway to build care, to build
community into your own businessin a way that, you know, isn't
necessarily indirect conflict toany normal business process.
Heather O'Neill (16:56):
Nobody should have to just trust and hope for
the best. And I think the peoplewho experienced this the most
are the ones who people act likethey're doing you a favor by
helping you, especially forpeople who are from marginalized
backgrounds or have experiencedmarginalization through society
or through other avenues.They're treated like everybody
(17:16):
is doing them a favor by, like,not marginalizing them
frequently, or, like, they're anafterthought. And this happens
to me as well. Like, being awoman, being autistic, being
bisexual, like, all those thingsmean that, like, people can
treat you and systems can treatyou like, I guess if we have to,
we will do this for you out ofthe benevolent kindness of our
heart.
And that's actually not hair. Iwork with most people on a
(17:42):
contract and project basis, so Idon't have any full time team
members except for my spouse,but that's, again, different.
One of the things that I changedis I bill upfront to my clients.
And so now I will intentionallyset up my contracts with my team
members so they also get paidsomething upfront. Like, you
shouldn't have to wait.
Most companies and larger onesare always the worst because
they have power. They will saynet 30, but you can't bill until
(18:08):
arrears to the next month. So,like, you're waiting 60 days
from when you start work to whenyou get your first payment. And
that is unconscionable to me.Like, that that should not
happen.
And I think the other thing thatpeople don't realize is they can
negotiate contracts, especiallywhen it's a big organization.
The big organization might say,oh, no, we never do that. And
(18:28):
that's their prerogative, butthat is also a lie. There's no
organization in the world thathas not once ever negotiated the
terms of their contract. Theymay not negotiate it with you
because they think you're smallpotatoes and they can find
another you and that you'rereplaceable.
But 9 times out of 10, they willlikely work with you. And it's
okay to take the time to do thatand to get what you need.
Susan Boles (18:52):
Yeah. I completely agree. I side off as the CFO
there. It's a conversation Ihave with my clients all the
time that, I tend to leantowards contract and payment
systems that require yourclients to enter payment details
at the beginning so that you canbill them automatically. Because
it won, it dramaticallyincreases the cashflow and
(19:14):
predictability for the businessowner, but also for the client
as well.
And I get so much pushback frompeople that work with big
clients that say, oh, my, myclients will never do this.
They're too big. I have to usetheir system. And almost always
when you push back or just say,Hey, this is the way that we
really prefer to work. Can youwork within our constraints?
(19:36):
Half the time they don't evenquestion you send them the
contract. They just enter thepayment details and you never
even have to have thediscussion. But I would always
encourage folks to push backbecause I've had companies that
work with health insurancecompanies, that the health
insurance companies will followthis process. And they are some
(19:57):
of the worst, most bureaucratic.And so if a health insurance
company can do it, there's apretty good chance.
You can get your big company inwhatever industry to do it too.
You just have to ask.
Heather O'Neill (20:10):
And if you ask for something and the answer is
not just no, but and now we'regonna cut your contract, it will
feel bad because that revenueloss sucks. But also, you were
gonna have so much of a worsetime with them as a client than
the revenue would ever likely beworse. And I know that when when
you are strapped for cash andyou're feeling like I've got all
(20:32):
these bills and there's no oneto support me, like, that can
feel terrifying and, like, no. Iunderstand. If you choose not to
negotiate or not to ask becauseof those things, like, please
don't take this as a referendumon you because it's not.
It's the systems and the peoplewho have the power and choose to
wield it. Business decisions arerarely human decisions. And even
(20:54):
if the company has stated
Susan Boles (20:56):
that they are making human first decisions,
it's rare that that's the case.I think you hit on a really
interesting point that, youknow, there are a lot of
companies out there that willadvertise that they're human
first, advertise that they're ateam, advertise that you're a
family.
Heather O'Neill (21:14):
No, that what's a lie.
Susan Boles (21:16):
Oh, it's always a lie. But when the shit hits the
fan, they always prioritize theprofit. They always prioritize
the economics of it. They neverprioritize the people. And I
think one of the real challengesof building a calmer company of
building a company that does infact, try to make the system
(21:38):
better from within, or at leasttry to use their business as a
tool for good.
I think one of the key pointsthere is if you're going to try
and use your company as a toolfor good, you have to prioritize
the people within the company,even when that's not the easiest
choice, because there are a lotof times it won't be the easiest
(22:00):
choice or it won't be the mostprofitable choice. And I think
the hallmark of a company thatis truly equitable and does
truly demonstrate care is thatthey do prioritize the people
over anything else even whenit's hard.
Heather O'Neill (22:18):
Yeah. And I agree with that. I think it's
easy to say you prioritizepeople when you have lots of
cash or funding or things aregoing well. But when things are
not going well, when the cashisn't there, when the money is
tight, what does it look like?How do you prioritize or not
prioritize people?
And what does that mean? Like,what are you willing to give up
(22:40):
or sacrifice? And one of thethings that I think about a lot
is this concept of, like, workerowned companies. And I think
we're moving more to that model.And I think if you are looking
at having a business or lookingat having employees, how do you
move to an employee owned modelso everybody has an equal stake?
Yes. You get less profit, butalso you would have less risk
(23:02):
and you have more commitmentbecause everybody has a stake.
And I think that is a thoughtfulway to show that you care if you
wanna look at building yourbusiness and scaling it,
building it as a co op or anemployee owned or some sort of
model that passes along anybusiness success to everyone who
made that business successpossible.
Susan Boles (23:23):
Yeah. I've been having more and more
conversations with businessowners about what that might
look like for them or how tomake the transition or using
that honestly, as an exit plan,you know, if you're thinking
about retiring or moving on,basically selling the company to
the workers is a really coolexit strategy.
Heather O'Neill (23:45):
Yeah. And a really smart one because who
knows the business better,really.
Susan Boles (23:54):
So talk up to me a little bit about how the care
kind of practices or carecentric practices that you've
built in your own business,whether that is care for
yourself and, the workers orcare for clients, how has that
helped your business feel alittle bit calmer?
Heather O'Neill (24:13):
One of the things that I instituted,
several years back now is we area 4 day work week company. And I
tell my clients this so theyknow upfront. It's actually in
my contracts that says, like,we're only available Monday to
Thursday. If we work on theweekends, we're probably gonna
charge you extra. It is inpractice more flexible than
that, but I always have theability to be like, hey.
(24:34):
We're not available on Friday.Let's get to it Monday. And one
of the ways that I think havinga business that cares can make a
calmer business is releasing asense of urgency that comes from
white supremacy. So whitesupremacy says that everything
has to happen now. It's urgent.
It's a rush. And if we don't getit out now, we will all die. And
unless you work in a medicalprofession where your job is to,
(24:57):
like, heal somebody's body asit's, like, on a table dying,
that's just not true. Most ofthe people I work with and most
of the stuff that I work on isnot urgent. Everything
absolutely can wait, and it willbe fine.
And honestly, it might even bebetter. Having a 4 day work week
forces me to force my clients toreckon with how urgent things
(25:19):
actually are or in most casesare not. And so that creates a
calmer business because I'vebeen a business owner for 16
years. So I've been doing this along time, and it is easy to get
swept up in somebody else'senergy and somebody else's
urgency for things. However, Ihave found that as I say, no, I
can't do that on a Friday.
Everybody can adjust and nobodydies. Like, I've never been
(25:42):
fired for having a 4 day workweek company by anyone. It's
never even come up as acomplaint. And actually people
have apologized. Oh, Heather.
I'm sorry. I sent this to you ona Friday. I know you're not
working. When you practice carefor yourself, for your workers,
because I don't require any ofmy employees to work on a Friday
and they don't pay anybody anyless. And so when you when you
show up in that way and you say,these are the boundaries that
(26:04):
I'm not gonna cross for me, formy team, people will meet you
there.
You just have to tell them whatit is. And I think a lot of
times we're afraid that if wehave a boundary, we'll lose the
whole deal and our whole liveswill fall apart. It is rarely
true. I have have a boundary ofalso clients have to pay me
something upfront to reserve mytime because don't have time to
(26:26):
be chasing invoices when I'vegotten nothing from you and done
a ton of the work. I've only hadtwice where that's been a
problem, and I just didn't workwith them, and I moved on.
Susan Boles (26:36):
My experience was very similar to yours. I went to
a 4 day work week, I don't knowa year ago about the time where
I was like, this isn'tsustainable. And the way that I
approach work is no longersustainable, coincided with me
realizing I was autistic aswell. All of a sudden they're
like, Hey, I can't work as muchas I thought I could. I actually
(26:58):
do need to build in real timeevery week for actual rest,
because I just cannot, it's notsustainable for me to work that
much.
And at first I felt reallyuncomfortable because all of the
things that we've been taught,but, you know, if I tell people
I don't work on Friday, they'regoing to freak out. They're not
going to want to work with me.And none of that ended up being
(27:19):
true. And like you clients wherethat was an issue when we were
negotiating the contract, wejust didn't work together
because they weren't a good fit.And the end result has been, I
work with amazing clients that Iabsolutely love.
They're fantastic, amazing humanbeings, and nobody ever has a
problem with it.
Heather O'Neill (27:38):
When you're a business owner, especially, one
of the best muscles of care youcan build for yourself is to
learn that nos are not the endof the world. Right? When
somebody says no to you, it'snot your last chance. You get
another chance. And this iswhere that phrase, it's just
business, it's not personal,actually becomes helpful.
This is the only time it'shelpful. Because when somebody
(28:01):
tells you no, I don't wanna workwith you, especially if you're a
solopreneur, a consultant, or afreelancer, and you're in this
business sort of by yourself, itfeels like a personal referendum
on you as a human. And that isnot the case. This is a business
decision that they are makingthat you are not the right fit
for, but it does not mean thatyou suck or are bad or your
(28:22):
business is bad. And so if youcan build your muscle and your
tolerance to hear no, you'llactually get a lot more yeses.
And I know that sounds silly,but you set yourself up for not
wallowing. How many times havewe gotten a no? And then we're
like,
Susan Boles (28:39):
what the point is ending and I have no leads and
everything's terrible. Anybodylistening, please probably think
that, like,
Heather O'Neill (28:46):
it just goes away. It doesn't, but you get
better at it and you bounce backfaster. When you can build that
muscle and that skill, you cancare for yourself more because
you can trust yourself. Thatwhen you say no to a client, you
will be able to find the revenueyou need some other way. The
money that you need to survivesome other way.
(29:06):
It's scarcity and this fear ofnot having enough that keeps us
saying yes to clients andcapitulating our own beliefs.
And so the more you can buildthat muscle, the more you can
build your own practice of care.
Susan Boles (29:18):
I absolutely second that and would kind of bring it
back to community. Because forme, the network that I had
built, the people that I know,the people who do kind of the
same thing I do, but with adifferent flavor or a different
approach, or they have differentboundaries or work styles,
(29:39):
having those people in mynetwork, knowing about them
makes it so much easier for meto say, Hey, this isn't a good
fit. Like we're not a good fitright now, but I do actually
have somebody that is a greatfit for you. That I can send you
to. And I love being able tolean into that aspect of
(30:02):
community where, even if they dothe same thing, as you were
saying, there's plenty ofbusiness for us all to go
around.
And when we do that and kind ofstick to our boundaries and
stick to the way that we workthe best and with the clients
that we work best, everybodygets to do that when you are in
community with other businessowners.
Heather O'Neill (30:23):
There's a space for, for that. And also for
being intentional about who isin your community, like as a
white woman, I look to, who canI refer to this? Who won't get
this opportunity otherwise orwho otherwise wasn't in the
space and would be a good fit?Or am I willing to give up this
opportunity even though it couldbe a great fit for me because I
wanna pass it along to somebodyelse who might be an even better
(30:45):
fit? And making sure thatwhenever possible, like, I have
a rule in my business that whenI'm hiring contractors, I never
hire anyone who's a cisgenderwhite dude.
Whenever I'm looking for someonewho does, like, let's say, some
design work or some operationsupport, You say, who can I find
in my network who otherwisemight not get this opportunity
(31:07):
who would absolutely be a greatfit for this? And there's always
somebody else who also does thething you're looking for, but
isn't as visible or as publicbecause your network is too
small or because they haven'tlearned the right networking
techniques through, like, beingin the right rooms, etcetera.
And by the right, I mean, themost ubiquitous today in the way
(31:29):
business works today. And sopart of the rising tide lift all
boats has to be reallyintentional, I think, if you
wanna create a community thatcares and that continues to
increase the amount of equity wehave in the systems and starts
to change it.
Susan Boles (31:48):
We all need that village. We all need that
network, and we all need tobuild those relationships, but
building that village can bereally hard to create for
ourselves, especially when welive in a very individualistic
culture. And a lot of us areworking remotely. We are in
virtual rooms, but in order tobe in a virtual room, you have
to be invited into a virtualroom. So what are some of the
(32:12):
actions that business owners cantake to build a stronger
community, build that village,build a more diverse community
for themselves.
Heather O'Neill (32:21):
The first thing I will say is don't treat it
like a checkbox. Like, don't go,oh, I have to find a black
person to be my friend. That'snot ever the intention. And
don't go in 2 spaces assumingthat you are the one who like,
you're a hot shit base. Go in,especially when you are in a
(32:42):
minority of some way.
So if, like, a cis white guy oreven me, a cis white woman, goes
into a space that is primarilynot white, I might have things I
can share and and knowledge tooffer, especially around
business things. I've been doingthis a while. But there's a lot
of things I don't know, and it'sas much my job to, like, learn
(33:02):
as it is to share. And it's asmuch my job to listen as it is
to speak, probably more so. Andso when you go into these
networks, thinking about yourrelationship to power and not
wielding that in spaces where itwould be inappropriate.
(33:23):
Right? Seeding some of the powerthat you might otherwise have.
And then also treating peoplelike humans, not like check
boxes. Just really caring aboutthem, really believing anybody
you speak to about theirexperiences. And then deciding,
like, is this someone based onhow they behave and based on how
(33:44):
they talk and based on theirvalues, like, that I wanna be in
community with.
It's not something that happensovernight. Networks, you can't
just turn around and be like, Ihave a network. It's a
cultivation of relationships.And so I would say if you are
looking at this and going, well,I don't have a network, start
with one person who you've metor who you know about, who
(34:05):
you're like, I kinda wanna befriends with them. Find someone
who is at least adjacent to youand say, I wanna know that
person.
Work on building a relationshipwith them without an agenda,
without a desire to sell. We areoversold to you frequently in
this society. What we wanna knowis that you care about us as a
human. You see us as valuable,not as just dollars. And so when
(34:28):
you're going to talk to someone,think about how am I
approaching?
Even though I am sincere, dothey have reasons that are
founded to mistrust me based onmy identity, based on other
things they might be getting inthe DMs, based on their
visibility in certain platforms?And then act accordingly. And
(34:48):
then don't take it personalagain if they don't respond to
you because they're probablybombarded with people who are
scammers. For every sincereperson, there's always another
who is gonna be out to takeadvantage. And so, like, for
people who are not white, I'mcompletely fine if they're
skeptical of me, a white woman,like, showing up in their space
(35:11):
because, like, they don't knowme from any other white woman.
And it might be harmful. And incertain context, like, I'm
white. I'm seeped to whitesupremacy. I am working every
day to unlearn that. We can'tshy away from this work just
because we might be harmful.
And we can't assume that we'realways unharmful and that people
who think we're harmful arewrong. Going in with this
(35:31):
posture of it's okay if peopledon't wanna be my friend here or
don't even wanna give me thechance to find out if we could
be friends.
Susan Boles (35:40):
I think that's a real genuine way to actually
build connections because atleast in my experience, you
know, I've been doing it for awhile too. At every single win
I've had in business is somehowtied to a relationship that I
built with somebody. There's nosuccess that isn't entirely my
own and the bootstraps things,it's just bullshit. It's so
(36:02):
critical to build genuinerelationships. And the people
that I started out buildingthose relationships with where
both of our businesses have likegrown up together, it's such a
cool relationship to have withsomebody who's seen you grow
over the last 10 years.
And they can be like, Hey, doyou remember back when?
Heather O'Neill (36:24):
Yeah. I think that's really cool. I actually
also frequently joke that, like,all my business success is
because I like to make friends.I am generally interested in
being friends with people, andthat naturally ends up with an
outpouring of also businessbecause people buy from people
they know and they like and theytrust. And who do they know and
they like trust the most?
(36:44):
Oh, they're friends. And, like,with business, let the
friendship be enough and knowthat that is part of building a
community is being inrelationships with people that
you like and that you careabout. And sometimes that turns
into business and sometimes itdoesn't, and it's cool either
way. Don't be afraid to formyour own small community. I have
(37:06):
a lot of people who I've metover the years of business.
And one of the things I've doneon a couple different times is
formed, like, a small group ofus who are all doing business
together, and we would just gettogether on a weekly or a
monthly basis and just talkabout business things. Again,
not what the goal is selling,but just what the goal is
supporting. The other thing tooI wanna say is we measure
(37:28):
business success in 2 ways,revenue and longevity. And I
want everybody listening to knowthat neither of those is
actually a really good measureof success. There was 1 year in
my business I turned down over$200,000 worth of work because
it wasn't right alignment, rightvalues, right contract terms,
lots of reasons.
But I said no to projects thatotherwise would have handed me
(37:49):
money. So my business revenuethat year was much lower. I
don't see myself as any lesssuccessful. Also, this idea that
things have to be permanent tobe successful is wild as if it
wasn't nourishing, as if itwasn't valuable for the time it
existed. So never be afraid tobe like, this is no longer
working for me.
Your business didn't fail. Itsucceeded for years. It helped
(38:12):
you do whatever you needed to dofor the time that it was in
operation, and it's okay that itended. There is so much value in
having done it even if itdoesn't stay forever.
Susan Boles (38:28):
When we run businesses through a lens of
care, we provide for and weprioritize the well-being of the
people involved. Care should bea core value, it should be
something that you prioritizeeven when it's hard. In a calm
company, taking care of thepeople comes before making a
profit. It comes before landinga new client, comes before
(38:51):
growth. You are building anddesigning your business to take
care of the people, not thenumbers.
Ultimately, it's reallydifficult to build a calmer
company, to build something thatis in direct contradiction with
the messages of productivity andachievement culture, and
honestly, just late stagecapitalism. It's really
(39:11):
difficult to build somethingcalmer without starting from a
foundation of genuine care forthe well-being of the folks that
surround your business. If youcare for the people and you
build the foundations of yourbusiness with the people who are
involved in it in mind, you canultimately design something
that's both sustainable andcalmer. Big thanks to everyone
(39:33):
who supports Beyond Margins. Ifyou are a listener, a sponsor,
or a partner of any kind, Ireally couldn't do this show
without you.
If you're interested in learningmore about how to engineer a
calm business, comfortablemargins, head to be on
margins.com. While you're there,you can sign up for my free
newsletter. I send it everyweek, and it's all about one
(39:54):
topic. How do you engineer acalmer business? Until next
time, stay calm.
None of us could survive being in business alone.
So how do you build systems thatcan help support and care for
you and your business? Where doyou find that community that
will pick you up when you're inthe dip or celebrate with you
when you close a big new client?Hey there, I'm Susan Boles, and
this is Beyond Margins. The showwhere we deconstruct how to
(00:26):
engineer a calmer business.
We're in the middle of a miniseries where we're exploring the
common elements of a calmbusiness. So, what makes a calm
business actually calm? How doyou engineer that into your
business? Well, there are 8elements that all calm companies
have in common. Clarity,autonomy, a lens of care,
(00:49):
margins, efficient systems,rest, and reduced urgency.
Now, we've talked about clarityand autonomy in previous
episodes, so if you haven'talready listened to those, I
highly recommend you go back andcheck them out. Today, we're
talking about operating througha lens of care. What do I mean
by care? Well, the definition Ilike best is that care is
(01:12):
providing what is needed for thewell-being or protection of a
person or thing. So when we runour businesses through a lens of
care, we provide for andprioritize the well-being of the
people involved in our business.
So that might be you, your team,your clients, or even the
community around you. When youlead with care, building
(01:34):
something calmer, it almosttakes care of itself, because no
one's well-being is enhanced bypanic, by urgency, or chaos. My
guest today is Heather O'Neil.She's an anti capitalist
business coach for tech andservice businesses, And she's
the founder of a UX consultancycalled Pixels For Human. Heather
is someone who really walks thewalk here.
(01:56):
She puts people over profits andreally believes that you can
make money while still doinggood. So under the heading of
taking care of people, or Ithink really even just giving a
crap about the people in oraround your business is not
normally the default when itcomes to business and what we're
kind of taught and ingrainedthat business should actually
(02:18):
be. There's this phrase, it'snot personal it's business. That
is, you know, the go tocatchphrase of all business
owners everywhere. And Ipersonally hate it, but where do
you think it comes from?
And how is that mentality kindof hurting us both as business
owners and just as human beingsexisting in the world?
Heather O'Neill (02:37):
Yeah. It's such an interesting phrase because I
think there's moments when itcan be helpful, like when you're
seeing someone's behavior at youand then taking it as a personal
referendum. But most of thetime, the way it's wielded is as
a explanation for exploitation.Right? When people say, oh, it's
not personal.
It's just business. They'reusually justifying their choices
(02:57):
to cause harm, to exploit, or totreat people like trash without
consequence, as if businessmakes it okay to be an asshole.
Susan Boles (03:05):
Well, and I think that's the culture that we have
been brought up to believe thatif it's business, you can get
away with all manner ofhorrible, exploitative actions.
So I love that you brought thatin because I think that really
hits the point of the harm thatcomes from business. I don't
think it has to be that way, butI do think it's portrayed that
(03:28):
way a lot.
Heather O'Neill (03:29):
Yeah. And I think it fits in with the larger
society of individualism thathas grown up as a very popular,
like way of existing. Right? Wedon't live in communities
anymore. We live in our ownhouses and our own spaces and
with this belief that we don'towe anybody anything.
And on the surface, that'stechnically true, but also we
(03:51):
are humans, and we do owe eachother, like, support and care
and existence just by the natureof we're all in this together
and without each other, weactually, none of us could
survive.
Susan Boles (04:00):
I agree with that. As I was getting ready for this
conversation, I'm on TikTok and,we're getting ready for school
to start. And there's this wholediscussion about communal school
supplies and apparently a wholesegment of the population that
really are offended by the ideaof kids sharing school supplies
(04:22):
and saw somebody post a commentabout, if I spring for Crayola,
I don't want my kid to have touse rose art crowns for an
afternoon. And I thought thatjust kind of really exemplified
the individualistic mentalitythat we have that I think is
ultimately does do a lot of harmto us as a culture, but
(04:43):
particularly in the businessspace where we are deeply
ingrained to be competitive, tobe anti community in a lot of
sense.
Heather O'Neill (04:52):
Yeah. That also comes back to, like, beliefs
about who owns what and whatpower people have and how power
looks. Because a lot of times,this is about power over or
power above rather than powerwith. And I think that shapes a
lot of our our systems and ourthinking when it comes to things
like school supplies and who'sbetter than who. And I have
(05:14):
sprung for the Crayola crayonsso my kid can feel special or
I'm filling some personal need,or I just think I'm better than
you.
Right? Because I have power overyou. And if we're all sharing, I
lose that and I feel like I'velost something. And in business,
that's always the case. There'sso much of the business dynamic
that is around who has morepower in the deal, who has more
(05:37):
authority, who who's theimportant one.
Right? And when you frame it asthat, and you failed to see it
as anything other than like, Ihave to get mine often at the
expense of you or else. Then youcan't build meaningful
relationships, which is ironicbecause if you talk to anyone,
(05:57):
they will always have a story oflike somebody going out on a
limb for them. Somebody doing afavor above and beyond, but they
never make the connection fromthat to, and I should pay it
forward or that community iswhat brought me here.
Susan Boles (06:11):
That's a really key part. And I think it's so
important to recognize thecommunity that we're all kind of
de facto a part of whether webelieve we are or not, but this
aspect of paying it forward orbeing in community with people
that are already in communitywith you, it's a really
(06:33):
interesting thread that I wouldlove to pull
Heather O'Neill (06:34):
a little bit more. It's something where
people treat it like a given ortake it for granted that they
should get something, theyshould get an exception. Because
with within ourselves, the theway humans work. Right? Like, we
see ourselves as always theexception or can understand why
we might do things thatotherwise on the surface might
look terrible.
But when we judge other people'sactivities, we judge them based
(06:57):
on the rule. Like, oh, thatperson's stealing bread because
they're a bad person. But when Istole bread, it's because I was
really hungry and starving. Orthat person is doing that
business tactic because they'rebad, but I'm doing it because I
don't have any other way tosurvive. And so we can always
find excuses for ourselves, butwe rarely extend that to the
(07:17):
other people doing it.
And that comes through withexceptions as well. Like, oh, I
got this opportunity and thisperson went out on a limb for me
because I'm worth going out on alimb for, but I can't do that
for someone else because maybethey'll take advantage of me or
I don't want to give up what Ihave.
Susan Boles (07:34):
The, if I take care of somebody else that's less for
me is such a deeply ingrainedpiece of business that I think
often it just happens bydefault, but it is like a
foundational piece of so manydifferent business practices and
things that were taught aresupposed to be like when you're
negotiating a deal withsomebody, you have to keep the
(07:56):
power, you have to control theenvironment and make sure you're
sitting higher than they are.
Heather O'Neill (08:03):
One of my family members just bought a car
and they went into a dealershipand they got promised all these
things, and none of that camethrough in the paperwork. I
looked over the paperworkafterwards, and I was like, hey.
They didn't do the things theysaid, and they had to actually
go back to the dealershipbecause it was this whole power
trip of how the car dealershipwanted to make money at any
cost. Those are the things thatmake people hate business and
(08:26):
hate sales. But most of thepeople I talk to, you don't
actually hate sales.
You hate sales as it ispresented as the default. Right?
You hate business as ispresented as the default because
it assumes and requires you tocare about yourself at the
expense of other people. Veryfew people sit in that space
naturally. Like, you look atkids, they care about each
(08:47):
other.
Right? Like, as humans, we arewired to care about each other
because that's how we havesurvived historically. And when
it comes to business, we say, fall that right out the window.
Right? I think there's a lot ofspace for us to reconsider,
like, can we choose to believethat there's something
(09:09):
different?
Like, I am a consultant. I am abusiness coach. I work in user
experience. And I actuallybelieve, like, there's enough
room for every one of us whowants to be in this space with
me. I'm not worried that someoneis gonna take business from me
because they can't.
I can't serve all the possiblepeople who could want my
services, number 1. And number2, like, if there's none for me
(09:31):
left, cool. I will go dosomething else. This is not the
only thing I could do with mylife. And what I actually want
for all of us is a society wherewe have the space and the care
for each other so that we don'thave to hustle culture.
We don't have to do it allalone. We don't feel like we are
shoved into these corners. I metsomeone recently who they have
(09:53):
every side hustle I think youcould ever have. They DoorDash,
they TaskRabbit. I think theyalso work as, like, a barista
somewhere just to supportthemselves and their family.
And that should not be the,like, default of how we operate.
And we should not constantly belooking to, like, minimize our
costs at the sake of, like,other people's lives.
Susan Boles (10:15):
Our culture today, and particularly like
millennials and younger, youknow, there's been so few
opportunities because so much ofit has just been sucked up into
the corporate structure ofbusinesses that you almost have
to, it feels like have multiplethings or multiple side hustles
(10:36):
or always be working. Or if youhave a hobby, turn it into a
business. Oh, you knit, sellyour creations on Etsy. And I
think it does such a disserviceto us as human beings to take
our interests and monetize them,but also to just have the kind
of environment where peoplecan't just do their work and be
(11:01):
able to survive comfortably andhave a living wage. It's just
ridiculous.
Heather O'Neill (11:06):
When you recognize that, yes, we live in
society and these soulfulconstructs are in place, but
they are also as impermanent asanything else. We can change
them if we want to. No, I can'tgo tomorrow and change all the
legislation that controls howbusinesses work. But I can start
by changing how I run mybusiness. And I think that's the
(11:27):
thing that people miss is thatwhen they say, oh, I don't have
systemic organizational power tochange the whole system.
They go, I can't do anything.And that's that's where I think
a lot of the confusion comes in.You don't actually have to
follow the business rulesbecause they're just as made up
as everything else. And so in mybusiness, I don't follow the
(11:48):
business rules in the same way.
Susan Boles (11:50):
We are going to take a really quick break to
hear from our sponsors. And thenwhen we come back, Heather and I
will get into her rules andpractices that help her build
systems of care into herbusiness. You are an anti
capitalist business coach. Youoperate your business in a way
(12:11):
that is as close to anticapitalist as you can within the
context of living in acapitalist society. So what are
some of the ways that you havebuilt kind of care and community
into your own businesspractices?
Heather O'Neill (12:25):
I think one of the big ways that I do that is I
build relationships for the sakeof their own existence. I have a
lot of people that I stayconnected to in the business
world, And
Susan Boles (12:37):
it would
Heather O'Neill (12:37):
be really cool if that led to some sales or
some cash for me. And also, ifit never does, I still wanna
maintain those relationshipsbecause I still care about those
people. There's a big boom oflayoffs right now, so there's a
big lot of people networking andtheir networking involved
showing up in your DMs andgoing,
Susan Boles (12:54):
hey, can you meet with me?
Heather O'Neill (12:56):
Because I like to get all these questions
answered. Or, hey, I wanna applyfor this job. Can you give me a
referral with no other context?There's no relationship there.
And while you can't go back intime and like, be like, oops, I
meant to build a relationship.
Showing that you care outside ofwhat someone can do for you is
the first step. So that's one ofthe things that I make a huge
(13:17):
priority in my business is tointentionally build
relationships with people who Imay or may not end up doing
business with, or who may or maynot end up referring business to
me because I want to haverelationships with that. Another
thing I do is I make it apractice to put my money where
my mouth is, if you will. Somost of the time, the best
(13:39):
impact you can make financiallyis direct giving. That has the
least tax benefit for you.
It's not always easy for peopleto be like, oh, I wanna do that
because you still get chargedfor, like, the taxes on the
revenue. But it is the bestthing you do. And so when I look
at building community, I say,how can my business and the
revenue that I bring in bedispersed out to the local
community, be dispersed out tothe Internet community that I'm
(14:01):
a part of, even if I don't get atax break for it. And then
building relationships withinthat too. Like the people that
you are giving money to are, isit just, I gave money and now
I'm done or are you willing toconnect with those communities?
So it's always coming back tolike your relationship to
things. Which I think is thehardest thing for people because
(14:22):
it's vulnerable and it requiresyou to get messy with other
humans. And in business, nobodywants to be messy because at the
end of the day, we're all herefor a transaction. And to a
certain extent, that is true.But I also think there's room to
care.
The last thing, and this one'sgonna sound wild at first, but I
I will explain it to make sense,is I have contracts. And the
(14:43):
reason that I think contractsare one of the best ways to say
that I care is I set up mycontracts with the intention
that whatever I've promised youin our business relationship, I
will hold to even if I become anasshole tomorrow. You can hold
me to my word and you don't justhave to trust me. I think a lot
of people think that if you careabout someone, you don't have a
contract because you just trustme. But no, the contract is the
(15:06):
biggest indicator of trustbecause it says that even if we
have a big old fight and we'renot friends anymore, I'm still
gonna do the thing for you thatI said I'm gonna do for you.
Susan Boles (15:15):
I love that because I am a big proponent of honestly
solid business processes being acaretaking step. Right? So if
you are communicating clearlyhow your process works, That is
a very solid way to show careand respect to your clients,
(15:37):
because you are saying, here'show this things works. You don't
have to have any questions aboutit. You don't have to worry that
I'm not going to show up on aspecific time at a specific
deadline, even to the pointwhere like automations can be a
point of care.
And that's the most operationsgeeky I ever get. You know, when
(15:57):
somebody comes on, on board as aclient and they automatically
get a thoughtful welcome email,that's written, not like you're
a robot, but like you're aperson and you can do both being
a person and automating things.They do feel cared for. And so I
think I love the, be for you.The contract is one of those
(16:18):
things, because I think it is anunderrated part of the kind of
care centric culture you canbuild in your business, where
those are parts where we wouldnormally like traditionally
think, oh, those are like thebusinessy part of things, but
doing those parts of businesswell and with a eye towards
(16:40):
taking care of your client ortaking care of your team even,
they can be a really powerfulway to build care, to build
community into your own businessin a way that, you know, isn't
necessarily indirect conflict toany normal business process.
Heather O'Neill (16:56):
Nobody should have to just trust and hope for
the best. And I think the peoplewho experienced this the most
are the ones who people act likethey're doing you a favor by
helping you, especially forpeople who are from marginalized
backgrounds or have experiencedmarginalization through society
or through other avenues.They're treated like everybody
(17:16):
is doing them a favor by, like,not marginalizing them
frequently, or, like, they're anafterthought. And this happens
to me as well. Like, being awoman, being autistic, being
bisexual, like, all those thingsmean that, like, people can
treat you and systems can treatyou like, I guess if we have to,
we will do this for you out ofthe benevolent kindness of our
heart.
And that's actually not hair. Iwork with most people on a
(17:42):
contract and project basis, so Idon't have any full time team
members except for my spouse,but that's, again, different.
One of the things that I changedis I bill upfront to my clients.
And so now I will intentionallyset up my contracts with my team
members so they also get paidsomething upfront. Like, you
shouldn't have to wait.
Most companies and larger onesare always the worst because
they have power. They will saynet 30, but you can't bill until
(18:08):
arrears to the next month. So,like, you're waiting 60 days
from when you start work to whenyou get your first payment. And
that is unconscionable to me.Like, that that should not
happen.
And I think the other thing thatpeople don't realize is they can
negotiate contracts, especiallywhen it's a big organization.
The big organization might say,oh, no, we never do that. And
(18:28):
that's their prerogative, butthat is also a lie. There's no
organization in the world thathas not once ever negotiated the
terms of their contract. Theymay not negotiate it with you
because they think you're smallpotatoes and they can find
another you and that you'rereplaceable.
But 9 times out of 10, they willlikely work with you. And it's
okay to take the time to do thatand to get what you need.
Susan Boles (18:52):
Yeah. I completely agree. I side off as the CFO
there. It's a conversation Ihave with my clients all the
time that, I tend to leantowards contract and payment
systems that require yourclients to enter payment details
at the beginning so that you canbill them automatically. Because
it won, it dramaticallyincreases the cashflow and
(19:14):
predictability for the businessowner, but also for the client
as well.
And I get so much pushback frompeople that work with big
clients that say, oh, my, myclients will never do this.
They're too big. I have to usetheir system. And almost always
when you push back or just say,Hey, this is the way that we
really prefer to work. Can youwork within our constraints?
(19:36):
Half the time they don't evenquestion you send them the
contract. They just enter thepayment details and you never
even have to have thediscussion. But I would always
encourage folks to push backbecause I've had companies that
work with health insurancecompanies, that the health
insurance companies will followthis process. And they are some
(19:57):
of the worst, most bureaucratic.And so if a health insurance
company can do it, there's apretty good chance.
You can get your big company inwhatever industry to do it too.
You just have to ask.
Heather O'Neill (20:10):
And if you ask for something and the answer is
not just no, but and now we'regonna cut your contract, it will
feel bad because that revenueloss sucks. But also, you were
gonna have so much of a worsetime with them as a client than
the revenue would ever likely beworse. And I know that when when
you are strapped for cash andyou're feeling like I've got all
(20:32):
these bills and there's no oneto support me, like, that can
feel terrifying and, like, no. Iunderstand. If you choose not to
negotiate or not to ask becauseof those things, like, please
don't take this as a referendumon you because it's not.
It's the systems and the peoplewho have the power and choose to
wield it. Business decisions arerarely human decisions. And even
(20:54):
if the company has stated
Susan Boles (20:56):
that they are making human first decisions,
it's rare that that's the case.I think you hit on a really
interesting point that, youknow, there are a lot of
companies out there that willadvertise that they're human
first, advertise that they're ateam, advertise that you're a
family.
Heather O'Neill (21:14):
No, that what's a lie.
Susan Boles (21:16):
Oh, it's always a lie. But when the shit hits the
fan, they always prioritize theprofit. They always prioritize
the economics of it. They neverprioritize the people. And I
think one of the real challengesof building a calmer company of
building a company that does infact, try to make the system
(21:38):
better from within, or at leasttry to use their business as a
tool for good.
I think one of the key pointsthere is if you're going to try
and use your company as a toolfor good, you have to prioritize
the people within the company,even when that's not the easiest
choice, because there are a lotof times it won't be the easiest
(22:00):
choice or it won't be the mostprofitable choice. And I think
the hallmark of a company thatis truly equitable and does
truly demonstrate care is thatthey do prioritize the people
over anything else even whenit's hard.
Heather O'Neill (22:18):
Yeah. And I agree with that. I think it's
easy to say you prioritizepeople when you have lots of
cash or funding or things aregoing well. But when things are
not going well, when the cashisn't there, when the money is
tight, what does it look like?How do you prioritize or not
prioritize people?
And what does that mean? Like,what are you willing to give up
(22:40):
or sacrifice? And one of thethings that I think about a lot
is this concept of, like, workerowned companies. And I think
we're moving more to that model.And I think if you are looking
at having a business or lookingat having employees, how do you
move to an employee owned modelso everybody has an equal stake?
Yes. You get less profit, butalso you would have less risk
(23:02):
and you have more commitmentbecause everybody has a stake.
And I think that is a thoughtfulway to show that you care if you
wanna look at building yourbusiness and scaling it,
building it as a co op or anemployee owned or some sort of
model that passes along anybusiness success to everyone who
made that business successpossible.
Susan Boles (23:23):
Yeah. I've been having more and more
conversations with businessowners about what that might
look like for them or how tomake the transition or using
that honestly, as an exit plan,you know, if you're thinking
about retiring or moving on,basically selling the company to
the workers is a really coolexit strategy.
Heather O'Neill (23:45):
Yeah. And a really smart one because who
knows the business better,really.
Susan Boles (23:54):
So talk up to me a little bit about how the care
kind of practices or carecentric practices that you've
built in your own business,whether that is care for
yourself and, the workers orcare for clients, how has that
helped your business feel alittle bit calmer?
Heather O'Neill (24:13):
One of the things that I instituted,
several years back now is we area 4 day work week company. And I
tell my clients this so theyknow upfront. It's actually in
my contracts that says, like,we're only available Monday to
Thursday. If we work on theweekends, we're probably gonna
charge you extra. It is inpractice more flexible than
that, but I always have theability to be like, hey.
(24:34):
We're not available on Friday.Let's get to it Monday. And one
of the ways that I think havinga business that cares can make a
calmer business is releasing asense of urgency that comes from
white supremacy. So whitesupremacy says that everything
has to happen now. It's urgent.
It's a rush. And if we don't getit out now, we will all die. And
unless you work in a medicalprofession where your job is to,
(24:57):
like, heal somebody's body asit's, like, on a table dying,
that's just not true. Most ofthe people I work with and most
of the stuff that I work on isnot urgent. Everything
absolutely can wait, and it willbe fine.
And honestly, it might even bebetter. Having a 4 day work week
forces me to force my clients toreckon with how urgent things
(25:19):
actually are or in most casesare not. And so that creates a
calmer business because I'vebeen a business owner for 16
years. So I've been doing this along time, and it is easy to get
swept up in somebody else'senergy and somebody else's
urgency for things. However, Ihave found that as I say, no, I
can't do that on a Friday.
Everybody can adjust and nobodydies. Like, I've never been
(25:42):
fired for having a 4 day workweek company by anyone. It's
never even come up as acomplaint. And actually people
have apologized. Oh, Heather.
I'm sorry. I sent this to you ona Friday. I know you're not
working. When you practice carefor yourself, for your workers,
because I don't require any ofmy employees to work on a Friday
and they don't pay anybody anyless. And so when you when you
show up in that way and you say,these are the boundaries that
(26:04):
I'm not gonna cross for me, formy team, people will meet you
there.
You just have to tell them whatit is. And I think a lot of
times we're afraid that if wehave a boundary, we'll lose the
whole deal and our whole liveswill fall apart. It is rarely
true. I have have a boundary ofalso clients have to pay me
something upfront to reserve mytime because don't have time to
(26:26):
be chasing invoices when I'vegotten nothing from you and done
a ton of the work. I've only hadtwice where that's been a
problem, and I just didn't workwith them, and I moved on.
Susan Boles (26:36):
My experience was very similar to yours. I went to
a 4 day work week, I don't knowa year ago about the time where
I was like, this isn'tsustainable. And the way that I
approach work is no longersustainable, coincided with me
realizing I was autistic aswell. All of a sudden they're
like, Hey, I can't work as muchas I thought I could. I actually
(26:58):
do need to build in real timeevery week for actual rest,
because I just cannot, it's notsustainable for me to work that
much.
And at first I felt reallyuncomfortable because all of the
things that we've been taught,but, you know, if I tell people
I don't work on Friday, they'regoing to freak out. They're not
going to want to work with me.And none of that ended up being
(27:19):
true. And like you clients wherethat was an issue when we were
negotiating the contract, wejust didn't work together
because they weren't a good fit.And the end result has been, I
work with amazing clients that Iabsolutely love.
They're fantastic, amazing humanbeings, and nobody ever has a
problem with it.
Heather O'Neill (27:38):
When you're a business owner, especially, one
of the best muscles of care youcan build for yourself is to
learn that nos are not the endof the world. Right? When
somebody says no to you, it'snot your last chance. You get
another chance. And this iswhere that phrase, it's just
business, it's not personal,actually becomes helpful.
This is the only time it'shelpful. Because when somebody
(28:01):
tells you no, I don't wanna workwith you, especially if you're a
solopreneur, a consultant, or afreelancer, and you're in this
business sort of by yourself, itfeels like a personal referendum
on you as a human. And that isnot the case. This is a business
decision that they are makingthat you are not the right fit
for, but it does not mean thatyou suck or are bad or your
(28:22):
business is bad. And so if youcan build your muscle and your
tolerance to hear no, you'llactually get a lot more yeses.
And I know that sounds silly,but you set yourself up for not
wallowing. How many times havewe gotten a no? And then we're
like,
Susan Boles (28:39):
what the point is ending and I have no leads and
everything's terrible. Anybodylistening, please probably think
that, like,
Heather O'Neill (28:46):
it just goes away. It doesn't, but you get
better at it and you bounce backfaster. When you can build that
muscle and that skill, you cancare for yourself more because
you can trust yourself. Thatwhen you say no to a client, you
will be able to find the revenueyou need some other way. The
money that you need to survivesome other way.
(29:06):
It's scarcity and this fear ofnot having enough that keeps us
saying yes to clients andcapitulating our own beliefs.
And so the more you can buildthat muscle, the more you can
build your own practice of care.
Susan Boles (29:18):
I absolutely second that and would kind of bring it
back to community. Because forme, the network that I had
built, the people that I know,the people who do kind of the
same thing I do, but with adifferent flavor or a different
approach, or they have differentboundaries or work styles,
(29:39):
having those people in mynetwork, knowing about them
makes it so much easier for meto say, Hey, this isn't a good
fit. Like we're not a good fitright now, but I do actually
have somebody that is a greatfit for you. That I can send you
to. And I love being able tolean into that aspect of
(30:02):
community where, even if they dothe same thing, as you were
saying, there's plenty ofbusiness for us all to go
around.
And when we do that and kind ofstick to our boundaries and
stick to the way that we workthe best and with the clients
that we work best, everybodygets to do that when you are in
community with other businessowners.
Heather O'Neill (30:23):
There's a space for, for that. And also for
being intentional about who isin your community, like as a
white woman, I look to, who canI refer to this? Who won't get
this opportunity otherwise orwho otherwise wasn't in the
space and would be a good fit?Or am I willing to give up this
opportunity even though it couldbe a great fit for me because I
wanna pass it along to somebodyelse who might be an even better
(30:45):
fit? And making sure thatwhenever possible, like, I have
a rule in my business that whenI'm hiring contractors, I never
hire anyone who's a cisgenderwhite dude.
Whenever I'm looking for someonewho does, like, let's say, some
design work or some operationsupport, You say, who can I find
in my network who otherwisemight not get this opportunity
(31:07):
who would absolutely be a greatfit for this? And there's always
somebody else who also does thething you're looking for, but
isn't as visible or as publicbecause your network is too
small or because they haven'tlearned the right networking
techniques through, like, beingin the right rooms, etcetera.
And by the right, I mean, themost ubiquitous today in the way
(31:29):
business works today. And sopart of the rising tide lift all
boats has to be reallyintentional, I think, if you
wanna create a community thatcares and that continues to
increase the amount of equity wehave in the systems and starts
to change it.
Susan Boles (31:48):
We all need that village. We all need that
network, and we all need tobuild those relationships, but
building that village can bereally hard to create for
ourselves, especially when welive in a very individualistic
culture. And a lot of us areworking remotely. We are in
virtual rooms, but in order tobe in a virtual room, you have
to be invited into a virtualroom. So what are some of the
(32:12):
actions that business owners cantake to build a stronger
community, build that village,build a more diverse community
for themselves.
Heather O'Neill (32:21):
The first thing I will say is don't treat it
like a checkbox. Like, don't go,oh, I have to find a black
person to be my friend. That'snot ever the intention. And
don't go in 2 spaces assumingthat you are the one who like,
you're a hot shit base. Go in,especially when you are in a
(32:42):
minority of some way.
So if, like, a cis white guy oreven me, a cis white woman, goes
into a space that is primarilynot white, I might have things I
can share and and knowledge tooffer, especially around
business things. I've been doingthis a while. But there's a lot
of things I don't know, and it'sas much my job to, like, learn
(33:02):
as it is to share. And it's asmuch my job to listen as it is
to speak, probably more so. Andso when you go into these
networks, thinking about yourrelationship to power and not
wielding that in spaces where itwould be inappropriate.
(33:23):
Right? Seeding some of the powerthat you might otherwise have.
And then also treating peoplelike humans, not like check
boxes. Just really caring aboutthem, really believing anybody
you speak to about theirexperiences. And then deciding,
like, is this someone based onhow they behave and based on how
(33:44):
they talk and based on theirvalues, like, that I wanna be in
community with.
It's not something that happensovernight. Networks, you can't
just turn around and be like, Ihave a network. It's a
cultivation of relationships.And so I would say if you are
looking at this and going, well,I don't have a network, start
with one person who you've metor who you know about, who
(34:05):
you're like, I kinda wanna befriends with them. Find someone
who is at least adjacent to youand say, I wanna know that
person.
Work on building a relationshipwith them without an agenda,
without a desire to sell. We areoversold to you frequently in
this society. What we wanna knowis that you care about us as a
human. You see us as valuable,not as just dollars. And so when
(34:28):
you're going to talk to someone,think about how am I
approaching?
Even though I am sincere, dothey have reasons that are
founded to mistrust me based onmy identity, based on other
things they might be getting inthe DMs, based on their
visibility in certain platforms?And then act accordingly. And
(34:48):
then don't take it personalagain if they don't respond to
you because they're probablybombarded with people who are
scammers. For every sincereperson, there's always another
who is gonna be out to takeadvantage. And so, like, for
people who are not white, I'mcompletely fine if they're
skeptical of me, a white woman,like, showing up in their space
(35:11):
because, like, they don't knowme from any other white woman.
And it might be harmful. And incertain context, like, I'm
white. I'm seeped to whitesupremacy. I am working every
day to unlearn that. We can'tshy away from this work just
because we might be harmful.
And we can't assume that we'realways unharmful and that people
who think we're harmful arewrong. Going in with this
(35:31):
posture of it's okay if peopledon't wanna be my friend here or
don't even wanna give me thechance to find out if we could
be friends.
Susan Boles (35:40):
I think that's a real genuine way to actually
build connections because atleast in my experience, you
know, I've been doing it for awhile too. At every single win
I've had in business is somehowtied to a relationship that I
built with somebody. There's nosuccess that isn't entirely my
own and the bootstraps things,it's just bullshit. It's so
(36:02):
critical to build genuinerelationships. And the people
that I started out buildingthose relationships with where
both of our businesses have likegrown up together, it's such a
cool relationship to have withsomebody who's seen you grow
over the last 10 years.
And they can be like, Hey, doyou remember back when?
Heather O'Neill (36:24):
Yeah. I think that's really cool. I actually
also frequently joke that, like,all my business success is
because I like to make friends.I am generally interested in
being friends with people, andthat naturally ends up with an
outpouring of also businessbecause people buy from people
they know and they like and theytrust. And who do they know and
they like trust the most?
(36:44):
Oh, they're friends. And, like,with business, let the
friendship be enough and knowthat that is part of building a
community is being inrelationships with people that
you like and that you careabout. And sometimes that turns
into business and sometimes itdoesn't, and it's cool either
way. Don't be afraid to formyour own small community. I have
(37:06):
a lot of people who I've metover the years of business.
And one of the things I've doneon a couple different times is
formed, like, a small group ofus who are all doing business
together, and we would just gettogether on a weekly or a
monthly basis and just talkabout business things. Again,
not what the goal is selling,but just what the goal is
supporting. The other thing tooI wanna say is we measure
(37:28):
business success in 2 ways,revenue and longevity. And I
want everybody listening to knowthat neither of those is
actually a really good measureof success. There was 1 year in
my business I turned down over$200,000 worth of work because
it wasn't right alignment, rightvalues, right contract terms,
lots of reasons.
But I said no to projects thatotherwise would have handed me
(37:49):
money. So my business revenuethat year was much lower. I
don't see myself as any lesssuccessful. Also, this idea that
things have to be permanent tobe successful is wild as if it
wasn't nourishing, as if itwasn't valuable for the time it
existed. So never be afraid tobe like, this is no longer
working for me.
Your business didn't fail. Itsucceeded for years. It helped
(38:12):
you do whatever you needed to dofor the time that it was in
operation, and it's okay that itended. There is so much value in
having done it even if itdoesn't stay forever.
Susan Boles (38:28):
When we run businesses through a lens of
care, we provide for and weprioritize the well-being of the
people involved. Care should bea core value, it should be
something that you prioritizeeven when it's hard. In a calm
company, taking care of thepeople comes before making a
profit. It comes before landinga new client, comes before
(38:51):
growth. You are building anddesigning your business to take
care of the people, not thenumbers.
Ultimately, it's reallydifficult to build a calmer
company, to build something thatis in direct contradiction with
the messages of productivity andachievement culture, and
honestly, just late stagecapitalism. It's really
(39:11):
difficult to build somethingcalmer without starting from a
foundation of genuine care forthe well-being of the folks that
surround your business. If youcare for the people and you
build the foundations of yourbusiness with the people who are
involved in it in mind, you canultimately design something
that's both sustainable andcalmer. Big thanks to everyone
(39:33):
who supports Beyond Margins. Ifyou are a listener, a sponsor,
or a partner of any kind, Ireally couldn't do this show
without you.
If you're interested in learningmore about how to engineer a
calm business, comfortablemargins, head to be on
margins.com. While you're there,you can sign up for my free
newsletter. I send it everyweek, and it's all about one
(39:54):
topic. How do you engineer acalmer business? Until next
time, stay calm.
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