October 14, 2025 • 44 mins
Meetings don’t equal management—most of the time, they’re just control theater. Freelance project manager Kacie Brennell joins Susan to unpack how autonomy—not attendance—drives real outcomes. They dig into async accountability, why tools fail without culture shifts, and how perfectionism + codependency quietly sabotage calm. If you’ve ever looked up from a day of calls with a longer to-do list, this one’s for you.
What you’ll learn
- How to shift from presence-driven management to outcome-driven autonomy
- The simple async cadence: owner → outcome → deadline → 3-bullet update
- Why software alone won’t save you (and what culture change must come first)
- Spotting perfectionism and codependency at work—and what to model instead
- How to use efficiency to create margin (and then actually keep it)
- Practical scripts for moving “quick calls” into written, visible decisions
Connect with Kacie
- (00:00) - Introduction: The Myth of Meetings
- (00:55) - Guest Introduction: Kacie Brenell
- (01:13) - The Importance of Autonomy in Work
- (03:16) - Challenges and Solutions in Modern Work Culture
- (05:50) - The Role of Technology and Tools
- (42:38) - Conclusion: Embracing CALM Management
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Susan Boles (00:05):
Meetings on top of meetings. Quick calls that never
stay quick. We've been told thatthat's what good management
looks like. But really, it'sjust control theater. When you
run your business by yourcalendar or by control, you lose
the very thing you actually needmost autonomy, the space to
(00:26):
think, the margin to do yourbest work.
We've been taught that meetingsequal management, that
productivity is proved by howoften we're face to face. But
when ad hoc touch base meetingsbecome the default operating
system, autonomy evaporates. I'mSusan Bowles, this is Calm is
(00:49):
the New KPI, where we solve forcalm one KPI, one bottleneck,
one business at a time. Today,I'm talking with Kacie Brennell
She's a freelance projectmanager and a longtime geeky
project management friend.
We actually met about sevenyears ago when I was running a
big software implementation atthe college where I worked, and
(01:10):
Kacie was managing the projectfrom the software side. So we've
been project management friendsfor a while now. And today,
we're talking about autonomy inwork. How software tools can
help create that shift, but onlyif they're paired with a culture
change. Because often whencompanies say they want
(01:30):
collaboration, what they reallymean is control.
We say productivity, but what wemeasure is presence, not
outcomes. So if you've everlooked up from a day of meetings
and wondered why your to do listgot longer, this one's for you.
We're pulling on the managementstyle lever from the calmer
framework. The default undercapitalism is authoritarian, top
(01:54):
down control. But the calmeralternative is autonomy,
encouraging people to do theirown work and giving them the
systems to do it.
If you've tried using maybe asoftware tool to create
autonomy, but you skipped theculture shift part, this
conversation will show you whatto change, in what order, and
how to actually keep the marginyou create. Casey, you and I are
(02:18):
both really big fans of usingtechnology in our work. That's
actually randomly how we met. Wewere doing this big software
implementation, and you weredoing project management on the
software side, and I was doingit on the side of the
organization. And socollectively know each other via
project management software,which is super weird niche, but
(02:40):
I kind of love it.
I just get a kick out of thefact that that's how we met.
Kacie Brennell (02:45):
I really do too. It does seem like it was several
lives ago. Life is coming fullcircle because now the main work
that I'm doing now as anindependent, I'm working for
another software company. I'mdrawing from the lessons I
learned as a young 25 year oldnew to the work world and
remembering what not to do.That's for sure.
Susan Boles (03:02):
I love that. So we are both fans and tend to
evangelize using software ortechnology or tools to make your
work easier and calmer. But whyis that something that's so
important to you?
Kacie Brennell (03:19):
I have experienced the version of me
that isn't calm, and it is notpretty. It really isn't. I
really set myself into a spiraland I would call this, let's
just call it a past chapter ofmy career. I'm going to fully
proclaim to the world that I'mout of that chapter now. But
there was a moment in time wherechaos was so normalized and my
(03:39):
nervous system was sodysregulated that I didn't even
know it was dysregulated becauseI had nothing to compare it to.
And finally, I removed myselffrom that situation, I just
thought like, this can't be it.There's gotta be a different
way. And now that I've gotten alittle taste for what it's like
to feel regulated and calm andapproach work from a place of
(04:02):
creativity and inspiration andnot fear or demands or
expectations, I can never goback. I can never go back.
Susan Boles (04:10):
The people that are advocating for calmer businesses
for a more regulated nervoussystem, almost everybody has a
burnout story somewhere in theirpast. And my greatest hope for
the world is that eventually, weget to the point where people
don't have to go through burnoutin order to get to the point to
(04:31):
realize how valuable it is tohave calmer work, to have a
calmer day to day life.
Kacie Brennell (04:37):
Absolutely. That's a beautiful North Star.
Honestly, if I could reach anyyoung person about to graduate
college looking into like how heor she wants to navigate the
working world, I wouldabsolutely say like your nervous
system is your speedometer,let's call it like that is your
ticker for when you're on orwhen you're off, in terms of how
(05:01):
your life is working and toreally get in touch with that
because, you know, for theentire decade of my twenties, I
didn't pay attention to that atall. I didn't know how to
connect to my breath. I didn'tknow how to feel in my body.
Like, does this feel right? Doesthis feel wrong? My entire entry
into the working world was go,go, go prove, prove, prove, do,
(05:23):
do, do shine, shine, shine,which in some moments was
absolutely great when thingswere going well, but when they
weren't, it just really was notsustainable. I would love to
create a world in which peopledon't have to experience such
drastic burnout in order tolearn these lessons. But I guess
we all find our way to our truthand our own our own unique path.
(05:46):
But man, I wouldn't repeat itand I wouldn't wish it on my
worst enemy.
Susan Boles (05:49):
Same. So as we're talking about technology and
software, one of the things thatkind of triggered me to reach
out to have you on the show, youmade a post about using software
to help create more autonomouswork environments. So tell me
more about that.
Kacie Brennell (06:09):
Oh, gosh, you know, this is like my hyper
independent, everyone leave mealone side of my personality
coming out. I consider myself tobe super extroverted, and I love
to chat with people. But I thinkwhen I get in work mode, I work
really, really well with quiet,independent concentration time.
And I've seen how with a certainmix of people or with the
(06:33):
current like way of the world,let's call it, which is one that
is very meeting heavy. Peopleend up having back to back
meetings and back to back callswith no time to actually do
their work.
Because so much time in themeetings is spent deciding what
we should do. And so I'm, Ithink I'm trying to flip this
model on its head because it'svery intuitive to me and it has
(06:53):
just now recently since talkingabout this, come into my
awareness that like noteverybody thinks this way. And
I'm like, wait a second guys,what? What are we talking about
here? Like, clearly my way hassome merit to it, everyone
please lend me an ear.
And so this idea of being ableto very succinctly communicate
(07:13):
what needs to get done and bywhen, posting that in a place
where everyone has access nomatter where they're at, no
matter what time zone they'rein, and everyone knows what
they're responsible for, I thinkis this liberating factor that
lets people live their liveswithout having to jump on a
quick call. Hey, can you jointhis meeting? Oh, really quick,
(07:37):
how about a quick ten minutesthat turns into forty five the
next morning? I'm noticing howin some work environments that
type of like last minute, well,we just, and aren't you, and
will you, is like the baseline.It's normal, but if we go back
to talking about the nervoussystem and like staying
regulated, like having a plan,agreeing to it, sticking to it,
(08:00):
and getting into a rhythm thatallows people to own their time,
to own how their energy works atits best.
The results are going to happen.Why deny people the opportunity
to experience calm, because wecan't figure out how to like
(08:22):
have less meetings. I think thatthe software, the cloud system
getting into a good rhythm ofcommunicating what needs to get
done when who owns it ahead oftime is the key to giving people
back their freedom and autonomy.I would hope that everybody
would agree with that, but Imight be wrong.
Susan Boles (08:39):
I mean, I think in our current hyper capitalist
society where the goal istheoretically productivity, but
the interpretation of whatproductivity means, I think is
sometimes different. I think youand I think about productivity
in terms of getting real workdone. But I think there are so
(09:01):
many work environments where weare I like the phrase LARPing
our jobs, where we are liveaction role playing our jobs.
We're pretending to do work.We're acting like we're working.
That theoretically should maybetranslate to being quote,
unquote productive. But inactuality, most of the research
(09:21):
says that's mostly bullshit.Yeah. So I think there are
environments where there is aheavy emphasis put on meetings
as a form of communication. Whenwe get into like corporate work
environments, the way we'retaught to communicate, I think
most often, is face to face.
(09:41):
Right? You're supposed to buildthose relationships. You're
supposed to use the livecommunication to collaborate, to
coordinate. And I almost thinkthe autonomous asynchronous kind
of communication skills neverreally get taught. Even when we
give technology, when we givethem a robust project management
(10:02):
tool, if we're not matching thatwith different management and
communication training to enablepeople to understand how to hold
someone accountable or how todelegate work or how to
communicate effectively, I thinksometimes it feels like it's
hampering the work.
(10:23):
What are your thoughts on that?
Kacie Brennell (10:25):
You know, this is also new to me because I live
in the bubble of my own brainwhere I'm always right. And so
stepping out of that and seeinghow other people view
asynchronous communication, whohave had the normalized
background of meeting heavy,call heavy workdays, I'm getting
(10:45):
so educated. I think that thereis a fear of asynchronous
communication, because eitherpeople are afraid that their
message isn't gonna land, orlike you said, they just
genuinely don't know how. And Iam really getting worked by this
right now because the clientthat I'm primarily working with
now is a group of veryexperienced, very intelligent,
smart, competent men who are intheir mid fifties. I would say
(11:09):
there's about seven of them.
I'm the youngest. I'm one of theonly women on the team. I have
noticed like, even just beinglike, Hey, I'm not available at
that time. Can you make me aloom? It's like, well no, this
is more complicated than a loom.
And so for me in my brain,because asynchronous is like,
the only way that I know how towork. I'm thinking for something
to merit a meeting, I'm like,who's dying? You know what I'm
(11:31):
saying? I'm like, woah, if we'remeeting about this, like
something is serious. And to thefear of like, oh, know, how are
we gonna build thatrelationship?
How will we build that rapport?I'm like, actually, when we have
less meetings about nothing,which is who's gonna do this,
who's gonna do that. Okay. Icould have solved that in five
minutes in my own brain and madeit into a, like a work breakdown
(11:53):
structure in monday.com, Asana,whatever. Then in the time that
I just saved, I could set up awalk and talk with someone two
time zones away from me saying,hey, the work day's done, I'm
gonna go take a walk.
I'd love to get to know you, doyou have twenty minutes to tell
me about your life and yourbackground? And I can set up a
walk and talk and genuinely getto know that person and not sit
(12:16):
there and dread in a meeting whyI'm there, why I was invited,
what are we even doing orsolving, and then resent the
person for wasting my time.
Susan Boles (12:25):
I mean, I have a very similar attitude towards
meetings that you do, which isif I could avoid most meetings,
I will. Not because I don'tthink they're valuable, but
because I think there are veryspecific ways in which they are
valuable. I find them supervaluable when I am brainstorming
(12:45):
or I'm trying to, like, workthrough a specific challenge or
a specific problem. There iskind of an interaction that you
can't get quite as easily viaasynchronous. Not to say that
you can't do it.
It's just it's not quite asdynamic where something somebody
else says will trigger somethingfor you to think. And so, like,
(13:06):
those kind of meanings I findsuper energizing and really
valuable. Yep. But like yousaid, you know, the who's doing
what and when, where does thisproject stand, how is the
process gonna work? I thinkthere are so many more valuable
ways to communicate thatinformation for both parties and
that everybody's busy thesedays.
(13:27):
Everybody would rather be ableto interpret that information in
the way that works best forthem. And whether that ends up
being a Loom video or a writtenbrief or an automated onboarding
sequence, I think thinking aboutcommunication in a different way
is required to be able to usethat software tool effectively,
(13:52):
regardless of whether it'sMonday or ClickUp or Notion or
Asana or whatever. You can'tjust throw a software tool at
somebody and expect it to createa more autonomous work
environment. It has to come withsome cultural changes for the
organization. And when you domake those cultural changes, I
think that it ultimately createsstronger communication.
(14:16):
It creates documentation for thecommunication. Because for the
most part, it's written down oryou can go back to it. And it's
not as ephemeral as it happeningin a meeting where somebody says
something and then ten minuteslater, you go, oh, somebody said
something really great. Now I
Kacie Brennell (14:29):
can't remember what it is. I know, right? I
hate when that happens. You'rereally nailing it, though. I
think what we're talking abouthere is behavior change.
And I think the, what I'mfeeling is the tension between
generations and an entirelydifferent way of being that
results from that generationaldivide. And I think the way that
we bridge that is with a lot ofpatience and a lot of
(14:52):
compassion, an open mind and awillingness to learn. I do have
a tendency to go into situationsthinking that my way is the
best. I think to a certainextent, we kind of have to be
that way as independent serviceproviders.
Susan Boles (15:04):
Nobody's going be like, my way sucks. Let's do it.
Let's do it a different way.Certainly not anybody who lives
in the operations side ofbusinesses.
Kacie Brennell (15:13):
Right, right. So yeah, I mean, I'm learning to
straddle the line of confidenceand experience versus like, you
know, arrogance and kind of likea flippant attitude towards
anything that is done in a waythat I wouldn't typically do it.
And there have been somemeetings that I'm like, okay, if
this meeting is run correctly,like this can be very fruitful.
(15:33):
But I think what we're facing isnine out of 10 meetings, people
aren't taught how to run them.No.
You know, if we're not decidingsomething, if we're just
chatting, we're pondering, we'rephilosophizing, we're also
living in a day and age wheremost people have more than one
job. We're competing for timeand attention. And I also wonder
too, if a lot of this return tothe office stuff that's going on
(15:59):
for people who have normalcorporate jobs is very much like
a death rattle to have controlover people, like an attempt to
have one last, let me get myhands on your time to make me
feel important type of like egothing.
Susan Boles (16:14):
It's absolutely about control. It's not about
collaboration. We'vedemonstrated that over the last
five years, people can learn howto effectively communicate
asynchronously. They caneffectively collaborate
asynchronously. There's allkinds of tools that can enable
and help that process along ifpeople are open to it.
(16:35):
But I do think that there isn'tnecessarily a value for creating
more autonomous workenvironments. And those of us
who freelance or have our owncompanies are people who
inherently do have a value forat least our own autonomy. But I
think at a kind of societallevel, autonomy isn't something
(16:59):
that's valued or prioritizedenough. And so even if we
implement tools that can createa more autonomous or more
asynchronous asynchronous workenvironment to give users
flexibility or autonomy and howand when they work. I think the
harder part, the more insidiouspart is starting to value
(17:23):
autonomy and prioritize autonomynot just for ourselves, but for
our organization as a whole.
And that requires letting go ofsome control and trusting the
people in our organization to beadults and to be able to manage
(17:43):
their own work. And I think,particularly in America, our
work culture is prettyinfantilizing when it comes to
the individual employees.
Kacie Brennell (17:54):
Yes. Oh my gosh, you nailed it. We really are
talking about behavior change.We're talking about culture
change. We're talking aboutvalues change.
And I still hold out hope, Istill hold out hope that there
are people who aspire to lead,who have the values of autonomy
and energetic balance and lifefullness. When I say life
(18:19):
fullness, I mean like, we'recoming to our work from a place
of fulfillment, not only throughthe thing that we're doing, but
from all the other aspects ofourselves that have had the
opportunity to be fulfilledbecause of the autonomy we have
over our time and our energy.It's about creating a culture of
(18:40):
workers who are enriched andfulfilled and endlessly curious,
who can show up to somethingwith their cup already full, who
don't need to be patronized orinfantilized, watched over,
controlled. So, I think you madea really good point and this is
something that I'm definitelynoticing in my role with one of
(19:02):
my newer clients too, is that atthe end of the day, the tools
really are tools. That's whatthey are.
The tool is not going to incitethe change. The change has to
come from within and the toolcan facilitate more change, but
it's not going to be the leaderand be like on the brink of
(19:22):
that. It's, it's got to comefrom a person first. And I think
I'm starting to come back downto reality with how long it
takes for people to change theirminds, change their hearts,
change their values and seewhat's possible. Because I try
to imagine, I'm like, how did weget here?
How did we get to this statewhere all these meetings are so
(19:45):
normalized? We're solving theproblems for other people and
then watching them do exactlywhat you said to do was normal.
Like, why can't we just say,hey, here's the finish line, you
are the expert, you know how todo this, get it done, call me
when it's done and we'll move onto the next one. What's going on
in that person that they thinkthat they can't do that? Because
if we just throw tools at theproblem, like nothing's ever
(20:05):
gonna change.
Susan Boles (20:07):
Yeah, I think the tool has to be coupled with
cultural change. It has to becoupled with skill development.
Because if you are not used todelegating via written word, if
you're not used to advocatingfor change via the written word,
if you are unused tocommunicating, except in a face
(20:31):
to face kind of way, there is areal need to develop different
kinds of communication skills tobe able to effectively manage
asynchronously, to effectivelymanage not face to face. And so
I think it's kind of where we'recircling around to is the tool
is important. It can be a reallystrong facilitator to make that
(20:56):
communication easier and fasterand more efficient.
There's a lot of benefits interms of, like, reporting how
well things are going whensomething database. It's in a
system. But I think without atleast tweaking what the culture
is or how we're approaching workand building those skills, I
(21:17):
think ultimately ends up being atool that people don't use as
effectively as they could. Andso it ends up being a burden and
not something that helps.
Kacie Brennell (21:27):
You're right. And honestly, I think I've taken
that really for granted. A lotof these skills that you're
talking about that comeintuitively to me, I think I
accidentally discount because Ijust assume that everybody knows
what I know. What I'm seeing isthat asynchronous communication
is not intuitive for everyone. Ithink that there are people who
(21:47):
worry if their message isgetting across or I think there
are people who don't know how tofirst independently really
reflect on what is it I need?
What am I trying to ask for? Andlike, could this have been an
email? And really, I would takethat even a step farther, right?
I'm like the meeting doesn'tneed to be an email and the
email doesn't need to existbecause the task is already in
(22:09):
Monday. You can tag me in thetask that's I'm already the
owner of, and we can have all ofour communication that's task
related on that thread in theproject management software that
the entire team can see.
Because guess what? My coworkerscan't read my emails. If I'm not
copied, I don't know what'sgoing on. But if everything is
in Monday, Asana, Smartsheets,whatever, then it's like we have
(22:33):
a single source of truth that wecan all rally behind. It's like,
imagine it being like a highpowered digital whiteboard,
throw in the water cooler forthis metaphor if you want,
because there's places to hangout and chat too.
I hope that that will be thenorm for the future. I hope the
future is now. But I can seethat it's going to take a lot of
(22:56):
patience and compassion andwillingness to model the
behavior. And also genuinecuriosity about what's getting
in the way of autonomy,independence, and trust being
the values? Or where's thebreakdown there?
Susan Boles (23:11):
I think it's capitalism. That's my answer to
everything.
Kacie Brennell (23:15):
I mean, you're not wrong.
Susan Boles (23:16):
Those are values we don't prioritize. The structure
of a capitalist system isessentially exploitation of the
workers. Like, that's thefoundation of the system. And so
if the structure is configuredfor the purpose of exploitation,
then why would we expect theworkers in the system to be able
(23:38):
to envision something different?If the standard is we're
exploiting people and they'renot able to think independently
or to act independently, whywould we expect something
different of them?
So I think the issue is reallyat a societal level, unpacking
(23:58):
some of those really deeplyingrained beliefs to see that
potentially it could be anotherway, you know, a lot of workers
and companies in other countriesthat aren't so determinedly
capitalistic. They don't havethese kinds of problems. Not to
(24:20):
say that they're all perfect,but they don't have to unlearn
that workers should haveautonomy. They grow up believing
that workers should haveautonomy.
Kacie Brennell (24:33):
Right.
Susan Boles (24:33):
We don't have to teach them that. But, you know,
here, that's reallycontradictory and sometimes
controversial to posit thatworkers should have autonomy
over their work and when they doit and where they do it and how
they do it and that they shouldbe able to work in the way that
works best for them. And thatshouldn't be controversial, but
it is.
Kacie Brennell (24:52):
Gosh, just hearing you say that makes me
still feel so like wide eyed,like an innocent Bambi like,
what? You're telling me what?And I'm like, Casey, are you
really that shocked? Like, I'vebeen in the working world now
for what, a little bit over tenyears, I guess? And I think I'm
just sometimes blinded by my ownoptimism.
And I wanna believe that thereare exceptions to the rule
(25:13):
because of course there are. ButI guess if this podcast, if this
message were to reach anyleader, anyone who has real
influence over the way of beingat their company. First, I have
so many questions, but second, Ithink I would just say like,
what matters to you and why? Anddoes what matters to you matter
(25:36):
to everyone who's working foryou? Because that values
alignment is everything.
And once we get thatestablished, then the tools can
really be like a rocket ship tosuccess. I think you might have
seen this on LinkedIn, someonepushed back and I said, isn't
the sell here that people wanttheir time back? And they're
like, oh no, know, that's kindof what we thought with email.
You know, we were all gonna beso efficient because we could
(25:58):
email and then we ended up justtaking work everywhere we go
because now emails on our phoneand we never stop. So, they're
like, if you get more productiveand you can do things faster,
you're just gonna have more workto do.
And I'm like, where does it end?Like this is not the point. The
point is, get the work done in areasonable amount of time and
then go live your life becauseyou've done enough. You're
(26:19):
earning enough. It's all enough.
We don't need to keep pushingharder, more, better, faster,
whatever.
Susan Boles (26:24):
Let's go live. I think that's one of the biggest
distinctions between companiesthat have a calmer ethos and
kind of the default companies iswhat are we using efficiency
for. Right? So efficiency is agoal at both of those
organizations. We're using thatefficiency to create more
(26:47):
margin.
What are we putting into themargin? And at the default
companies, it's we are trying tomaximize and shove as much work
and productivity into thatcreated time as possible. And in
calmer companies, we're usingthat to have margin for the
margin to exist, to do thingsthat are not work, to rest, or
(27:10):
to spend time with your kids, goenjoy a hobby, get a new hobby.
So I think the value forefficiency is really at the
heart of what we're talkingabout here. You know, we're
talking about using technologyto create efficiency, to create
margins.
But the difference between acone company and a default
company is what are you usingthat efficiency for? What's the
(27:32):
point of efficiency?
Kacie Brennell (27:33):
You nailed it. And I honestly, I don't think
I'm ever gonna understand thesepeople who are like, I'm
creating more efficiency so Ican do more work. No. Thank you.
Susan Boles (27:41):
You know, we're taught that in school. We're
taught that in work. And from avery early age, we are inundated
with messages messages that thatthe point of being efficient,
the point of being productive,the point of doing good work is
to do more of it. Capitalismessentially is designed to
eliminate rest. That's aconstruct of the system.
(28:05):
So it's very difficult to getaround that when you're still
living according to those rules.
Kacie Brennell (28:12):
Wow. Man, it's tough out there.
Susan Boles (28:14):
I think, you know, the desire for calmer companies,
the way in which you build acalmer company, you inherently
have to unpack some of thoseunconscious biases in order to
envision something that could becalmer because the default is
growth at all costs. The defaultis do more. We're going to be
(28:37):
efficient so we can do more andmake more sales and shove more
work and maximize everything. SoI don't think it's possible to
create a calmer company withoutunpacking some of that at least.
Kacie Brennell (28:47):
Absolutely. And it's a shame that a lot of that
responsibility lies in just afew people, the executive
leadership team, because itreally does need to start at the
top. I think that people like mewho have found themselves
deconstructing those oldmentalities, it became
impossible for me to stay inenvironments where everybody
(29:08):
else wasn't doing the same. Sonow I'm fortunate I found myself
in a position where I can beindependent and be selective
about who I work with and bevery cautious and be very well
boundaried. And it's working outgreat.
I'm still very early in myjourney here, I've only been
(29:28):
doing this for a little over ayear on my own, but I got my
health under control. And now,you know, I sleep at least eight
hours every night. I'm gettinggood quality rest. I have too
many hobbies to count. I'm justlike scatter brain and I'm like,
I wanna learn this, I wannalearn that, let's go here, let's
try that.
(29:49):
But it's so, it's so enrichingand all of these experiences
that I have outside of myworking hours enrich me so much
that when I do sit down to do myclient work, my mentality and
the way I think and the energythat I come at it is one that is
fulfilled and curious and notrun down or resentful or
(30:12):
begrudgingly just doingsomething because she has to.
You know, it comes from a placeof inspiration, not obligation.
I wish everyone could experiencethis.
Susan Boles (31:14):
I did an interview recently with Karen Sargent. We
were talking about her clientreport card process. And one of
the items in her client reportcard is reflection on how she's
approaching the engagement andwhether or not she feels like
she's coming from a place ofgenerosity in the engagement
(31:35):
versus, you know, resentment orannoyance. And she uses that as
a benchmark for how well is theclient engagement going and
reflects on it weekly, actually,as part of her process. And I
think it's so interesting thatyou bring it up as well because
I think so much of how we engagewith clients is a reflection of
(31:55):
how we are internally feeling.
You know, are we run down? Arewe burnt out? Are we exhausted?
And sometimes that has nothingto do with the actual client
engagement. It's more theenvironmental factors.
And when we can make sure thatwe are taken care of, it allows
us to really be in generousservice to our clients. So I
love that you brought that uptoo. Because I think that is a
(32:18):
commonality across a lot of thecompanies and founders that I
talked to who are on a journeyto run something calmer.
Kacie Brennell (32:27):
Yes. I'm new to this. Like I never used to pause
and ask like, how do I feelabout this? Because it always
used to be, well, what do theywant from me? And how can I give
it to them and excel theirexpectations oftentimes to my
own detriment?
And now I'm like, I'm not givinganything away. Like if this
needs to feel good for me or Iam not interested. And so maybe
(32:48):
that's what the default companyleaders and the default cultural
standard is afraid of is peopletaking their power and their
energy back, showing discernmentwith whom they engage and how.
But it's a step in the healthydirection, at least it has been
for me. Going out on your own isreally scary and unfortunate
because I have a lot of support.
(33:09):
I don't know if I could havedone it if I was completely on
my own. But one day I hope thatwe get to a point where people
don't have to just go out ontheir own to be able to own
their energy and their time andtheir autonomy.
Susan Boles (33:24):
I would love for people to be able
Kacie Brennell (33:25):
to experience this in traditional
environments, but I think whatwe're seeing is if you do, that
currently is exception to therule, not the rule.
Susan Boles (33:35):
Agreed. So on LinkedIn, you made a mention
about codependency andperfectionism when it comes to
asynchronous work styles, whichwas super intriguing. So tell me
more about what you're thinkingin that area.
Kacie Brennell (33:51):
Oh, wow. Gosh, this is so good. Okay, so code I
understand codependency in thiscontext as like, let's say like
manager or managee, like directreport. Codependency would be
like the manager needing thedirect report to perform a
certain way so that the managercan feel worthy. Like she did a
good job.
There's a codependency therewhere the manager doesn't see
(34:12):
the direct report as like herown entity, her own person with
her own skills, output or valueis completely separate from that
of the manager. This is justlike a silly example of
codependency in the workplace.Right? And then the
perfectionism is a relentlessunwillingness to make mistakes,
(34:33):
to be caught with your pantsdown, to be caught maybe only
getting a base hit when youpromised a home run at the first
at bat. I think that these twovillains are very much obstacles
to a calm business because aslong as you are operating in a
(34:55):
mental state of perfectionism,you'll never pause to look at
your values and think like, howcan I experience a growth
mindset?
Because like a growth mindsetand perfectionism are completely
at odds with each other. Youknow, like you can't have one
with the other, they're mutuallyexclusive. So as long as
perfectionism is seeping itsclaws into your mentality and
(35:15):
your way of being, I thinkexperiencing calm, it's a far
away, far away goal. And thenthe codependency part, this I
also think is a little bit whatwe've been discussing thus far
in this episode is like, peoplestruggle to trust and they think
they need to control becausethey see other people as like a
(35:38):
reflection of their goodness. Soif you're a manager, you're kind
of like, well, how my teamperforms is a direct reflection
of me.
So if I'm a perfectionist, Ineed to control everything and
micromanage because what ifsomebody finds out that somebody
made a mistake, it's going to beon me. I think the healthy,
(35:58):
mature, emotionally adeptversion of this would be like,
I'm a manager, this is where Istart and I end, this is where
the direct reports start andend. We are separate people with
separate capabilities, withseparate strengths and
weaknesses. I'm going to give myteam what they need to know,
(36:19):
like what's expected of them andthen I'm gonna say, go do it and
call me when you're done or callme when you get stuck. And then
whatever happens has usuallyvery little to do with me, and
everything to do with the directreports.
I did not know this four yearsago. I didn't and it sucks to
(36:40):
admit this. It's one of thosehard lessons that it's
embarrassing and it hurts andnobody likes to talk about the
times they really messed up, butI really messed this up as a
manager and I'm stilldeconstructing my internalized
perfectionism. Where it comesfrom, why I have it, what
triggers it, how I project itonto other people. And those are
(37:01):
like the super villains of calm,they really are.
Susan Boles (37:05):
I mean, I don't think it's a reflection on you
or any manager, honestly,because so few supervisors get
training. Almost no one getstraining in how to be a good
leader or how to be a goodmanager. The exception to that
is people who have been in themilitary. So I got a lot of
(37:27):
leadership training because Iwas in ROTC. I literally have a
minor in leadership studiesbecause that's translates to is
I spent four years learning howto be a leader.
And the military does a reallygood job of teaching leadership
strategy and styles and at alllevels of the military and in
(37:47):
all branches. Outside of themilitary, I have never seen an
organization do a really goodjob at training supervisors.
They they pick supervisors basedon if they're good at doing
their work, which is a verydifferent skill set than being a
good manager. Being somebody whois really good at enabling other
(38:10):
people to do their best work,which is essentially what a good
manager should be doing. But theparadigm is not there.
The training is not there. Andso I think a lot of people have
the same experience you have,which is, man, I really messed
that up. But honestly, why wouldwe expect you to know how to do
it? It's a skill just like anyother. And we all expect that by
(38:32):
putting somebody in a leadershipposition, they'll know how to do
it.
But it's actually a skill thatyou have to learn just like any
other.
Kacie Brennell (38:40):
Yeah. Yeah. But my toxic trait being a
recovering perfectionist is thatI would expect me to know
without training and I wouldexpect me to hit a grand slam on
the first at bat. You know, whenyou have more calm, you can take
the time to deconstruct yourcodependency and your
perfectionist patterns. And whenyou have time to deconstruct
those, you can create more calm.
(39:01):
Because now I know what to lookfor. Now I know where things,
where patterns came from, howthey come out in work
environments and having had thatnegative experience before. Now
I know what I don't want torepeat. But I don't know what
formal training people aregetting outside of the military.
If we're reading books and we'relistening to podcasts and that's
kind of like the best we can dobecause there's no amazing
(39:24):
global training on how to be acompetent leader.
I don't know if people arelearning about the emotional
side of codependency attachmenttheory, more of like therapeutic
therapy related topics. I don'tknow if people are relating
those to leadership, but thathas definitely been a path that
I've been down for the past fouryears. I see those two things as
(39:45):
inextricable now.
Susan Boles (39:46):
Yeah, I think in order to be a good leader, a
good manager, you have to haveunlearned enough and know enough
about you and your style andwhere your strengths are and
where your weaknesses are andalso be able to see that in your
own direct reports. Because ifyou're gonna develop somebody's
skills, you have to be able toclearly see their weaknesses and
(40:10):
their strengths and all of thosepieces. So I I think there are a
lot of good resources out there,but I do think it ends up being
mostly left up to theindividual. Individual. Or you
get, you know, one afternoon ofquote unquote supervisor
training that is mostly, youknow, HR legal training, not
leadership training.
I think one of the reasons thatso many traditional work
(40:36):
environments feel really toxicis because nobody's been taught
any other way.
Kacie Brennell (40:42):
Yeah. And, you know, we do a great job of
finding individual solutions tosocietal problems. You know,
that was the straw that brokethe camel's back for me as a
young middle manager, becauseyou know, being a middle manager
is already stressful enoughbecause you have to communicate
up and down and sideways and doyour own work. Add to the mix
(41:03):
that there was no training, verylittle support. It was a perfect
disaster for failure.
Like I said, I'm not proud ofit. I wish I could go back and
do things differently, but maybenow's my chance. But I think in
that post that you referred to,was I kind of relating it back
to this call back to the officephenomenon that we're having now
where people are like, we nowwe're gonna go minimum four days
(41:26):
back to office. And I'm like,clearly the masses or the people
in power who are calling theseshots have not taken the time to
address their own perfectionism,codependency controlling
patterns. I imagine because ifit were the case
Susan Boles (41:40):
Or they own corporate real estate.
Kacie Brennell (41:43):
Probably. Oh, and that's another thing too.
It's like, is everybody justtrying to justify their rent? Is
that what's going on?
Susan Boles (41:49):
That is a huge part of it. I fundamentally believe
it's about control and moneybecause that's pretty much what
it always comes down to.
Kacie Brennell (41:56):
Yeah. And it's a shame. It's a shame because
there there is a massiveopportunity for people to look
inward right now. There's amassive opportunity for us to
model a new behavior. The timeshave lent themselves to a
structural change.
I perceive so much unwillingnessto do things differently, and to
(42:20):
keep things the way that theywere. And so my default is like,
okay, well, I'm just going to dowhat I can, which sucks because
again, it's an individualsolution to a very systemic
problem. But at the end of theday, I can only control what I
can control. That's myself. Andnot everybody has the luxury.
Susan Boles (42:38):
The takeaway here is that meetings don't equal
management. Most of the timethey're just proof of control.
The Calmer alternative issolving for more autonomy. Clear
ownership. Decisions writtendown where everyone can see
them.
Tools that support the workinstead of dragging everyone
into another room to talk aboutit. That's really what the
(43:00):
management style lever from thecalmer framework is all about.
Under capitalism, the default isauthoritarian, top down,
presence driven, and always on.But calmer management shifts
towards autonomy, trustingadults to do their own work, and
creating systems that make thatpossible. So here's your tiny
(43:21):
action for this week.
Pick one recurring meeting, justone, and ask, does this really
need to happen live? If theanswer is no, move it to an
async update. Post the owner,the outcome, the deadline, and a
quick three bullet progress notein your project management tool.
And then protect that time.Don't backfill it.
(43:44):
Let the margin stand even ifit's uncomfortable at first.
Because calm isn't aboutsqueezing more in. It's about
keeping the space you create.Until next time, stay calm.
Meetings on top of meetings. Quick calls that never
stay quick. We've been told thatthat's what good management
looks like. But really, it'sjust control theater. When you
run your business by yourcalendar or by control, you lose
the very thing you actually needmost autonomy, the space to
(00:26):
think, the margin to do yourbest work.
We've been taught that meetingsequal management, that
productivity is proved by howoften we're face to face. But
when ad hoc touch base meetingsbecome the default operating
system, autonomy evaporates. I'mSusan Bowles, this is Calm is
(00:49):
the New KPI, where we solve forcalm one KPI, one bottleneck,
one business at a time. Today,I'm talking with Kacie Brennell
She's a freelance projectmanager and a longtime geeky
project management friend.
We actually met about sevenyears ago when I was running a
big software implementation atthe college where I worked, and
(01:10):
Kacie was managing the projectfrom the software side. So we've
been project management friendsfor a while now. And today,
we're talking about autonomy inwork. How software tools can
help create that shift, but onlyif they're paired with a culture
change. Because often whencompanies say they want
(01:30):
collaboration, what they reallymean is control.
We say productivity, but what wemeasure is presence, not
outcomes. So if you've everlooked up from a day of meetings
and wondered why your to do listgot longer, this one's for you.
We're pulling on the managementstyle lever from the calmer
framework. The default undercapitalism is authoritarian, top
(01:54):
down control. But the calmeralternative is autonomy,
encouraging people to do theirown work and giving them the
systems to do it.
If you've tried using maybe asoftware tool to create
autonomy, but you skipped theculture shift part, this
conversation will show you whatto change, in what order, and
how to actually keep the marginyou create. Casey, you and I are
(02:18):
both really big fans of usingtechnology in our work. That's
actually randomly how we met. Wewere doing this big software
implementation, and you weredoing project management on the
software side, and I was doingit on the side of the
organization. And socollectively know each other via
project management software,which is super weird niche, but
(02:40):
I kind of love it.
I just get a kick out of thefact that that's how we met.
Kacie Brennell (02:45):
I really do too. It does seem like it was several
lives ago. Life is coming fullcircle because now the main work
that I'm doing now as anindependent, I'm working for
another software company. I'mdrawing from the lessons I
learned as a young 25 year oldnew to the work world and
remembering what not to do.That's for sure.
Susan Boles (03:02):
I love that. So we are both fans and tend to
evangelize using software ortechnology or tools to make your
work easier and calmer. But whyis that something that's so
important to you?
Kacie Brennell (03:19):
I have experienced the version of me
that isn't calm, and it is notpretty. It really isn't. I
really set myself into a spiraland I would call this, let's
just call it a past chapter ofmy career. I'm going to fully
proclaim to the world that I'mout of that chapter now. But
there was a moment in time wherechaos was so normalized and my
(03:39):
nervous system was sodysregulated that I didn't even
know it was dysregulated becauseI had nothing to compare it to.
And finally, I removed myselffrom that situation, I just
thought like, this can't be it.There's gotta be a different
way. And now that I've gotten alittle taste for what it's like
to feel regulated and calm andapproach work from a place of
(04:02):
creativity and inspiration andnot fear or demands or
expectations, I can never goback. I can never go back.
Susan Boles (04:10):
The people that are advocating for calmer businesses
for a more regulated nervoussystem, almost everybody has a
burnout story somewhere in theirpast. And my greatest hope for
the world is that eventually, weget to the point where people
don't have to go through burnoutin order to get to the point to
(04:31):
realize how valuable it is tohave calmer work, to have a
calmer day to day life.
Kacie Brennell (04:37):
Absolutely. That's a beautiful North Star.
Honestly, if I could reach anyyoung person about to graduate
college looking into like how heor she wants to navigate the
working world, I wouldabsolutely say like your nervous
system is your speedometer,let's call it like that is your
ticker for when you're on orwhen you're off, in terms of how
(05:01):
your life is working and toreally get in touch with that
because, you know, for theentire decade of my twenties, I
didn't pay attention to that atall. I didn't know how to
connect to my breath. I didn'tknow how to feel in my body.
Like, does this feel right? Doesthis feel wrong? My entire entry
into the working world was go,go, go prove, prove, prove, do,
(05:23):
do, do shine, shine, shine,which in some moments was
absolutely great when thingswere going well, but when they
weren't, it just really was notsustainable. I would love to
create a world in which peopledon't have to experience such
drastic burnout in order tolearn these lessons. But I guess
we all find our way to our truthand our own our own unique path.
(05:46):
But man, I wouldn't repeat itand I wouldn't wish it on my
worst enemy.
Susan Boles (05:49):
Same. So as we're talking about technology and
software, one of the things thatkind of triggered me to reach
out to have you on the show, youmade a post about using software
to help create more autonomouswork environments. So tell me
more about that.
Kacie Brennell (06:09):
Oh, gosh, you know, this is like my hyper
independent, everyone leave mealone side of my personality
coming out. I consider myself tobe super extroverted, and I love
to chat with people. But I thinkwhen I get in work mode, I work
really, really well with quiet,independent concentration time.
And I've seen how with a certainmix of people or with the
(06:33):
current like way of the world,let's call it, which is one that
is very meeting heavy. Peopleend up having back to back
meetings and back to back callswith no time to actually do
their work.
Because so much time in themeetings is spent deciding what
we should do. And so I'm, Ithink I'm trying to flip this
model on its head because it'svery intuitive to me and it has
(06:53):
just now recently since talkingabout this, come into my
awareness that like noteverybody thinks this way. And
I'm like, wait a second guys,what? What are we talking about
here? Like, clearly my way hassome merit to it, everyone
please lend me an ear.
And so this idea of being ableto very succinctly communicate
(07:13):
what needs to get done and bywhen, posting that in a place
where everyone has access nomatter where they're at, no
matter what time zone they'rein, and everyone knows what
they're responsible for, I thinkis this liberating factor that
lets people live their liveswithout having to jump on a
quick call. Hey, can you jointhis meeting? Oh, really quick,
(07:37):
how about a quick ten minutesthat turns into forty five the
next morning? I'm noticing howin some work environments that
type of like last minute, well,we just, and aren't you, and
will you, is like the baseline.It's normal, but if we go back
to talking about the nervoussystem and like staying
regulated, like having a plan,agreeing to it, sticking to it,
(08:00):
and getting into a rhythm thatallows people to own their time,
to own how their energy works atits best.
The results are going to happen.Why deny people the opportunity
to experience calm, because wecan't figure out how to like
(08:22):
have less meetings. I think thatthe software, the cloud system
getting into a good rhythm ofcommunicating what needs to get
done when who owns it ahead oftime is the key to giving people
back their freedom and autonomy.I would hope that everybody
would agree with that, but Imight be wrong.
Susan Boles (08:39):
I mean, I think in our current hyper capitalist
society where the goal istheoretically productivity, but
the interpretation of whatproductivity means, I think is
sometimes different. I think youand I think about productivity
in terms of getting real workdone. But I think there are so
(09:01):
many work environments where weare I like the phrase LARPing
our jobs, where we are liveaction role playing our jobs.
We're pretending to do work.We're acting like we're working.
That theoretically should maybetranslate to being quote,
unquote productive. But inactuality, most of the research
(09:21):
says that's mostly bullshit.Yeah. So I think there are
environments where there is aheavy emphasis put on meetings
as a form of communication. Whenwe get into like corporate work
environments, the way we'retaught to communicate, I think
most often, is face to face.
(09:41):
Right? You're supposed to buildthose relationships. You're
supposed to use the livecommunication to collaborate, to
coordinate. And I almost thinkthe autonomous asynchronous kind
of communication skills neverreally get taught. Even when we
give technology, when we givethem a robust project management
(10:02):
tool, if we're not matching thatwith different management and
communication training to enablepeople to understand how to hold
someone accountable or how todelegate work or how to
communicate effectively, I thinksometimes it feels like it's
hampering the work.
(10:23):
What are your thoughts on that?
Kacie Brennell (10:25):
You know, this is also new to me because I live
in the bubble of my own brainwhere I'm always right. And so
stepping out of that and seeinghow other people view
asynchronous communication, whohave had the normalized
background of meeting heavy,call heavy workdays, I'm getting
(10:45):
so educated. I think that thereis a fear of asynchronous
communication, because eitherpeople are afraid that their
message isn't gonna land, orlike you said, they just
genuinely don't know how. And Iam really getting worked by this
right now because the clientthat I'm primarily working with
now is a group of veryexperienced, very intelligent,
smart, competent men who are intheir mid fifties. I would say
(11:09):
there's about seven of them.
I'm the youngest. I'm one of theonly women on the team. I have
noticed like, even just beinglike, Hey, I'm not available at
that time. Can you make me aloom? It's like, well no, this
is more complicated than a loom.
And so for me in my brain,because asynchronous is like,
the only way that I know how towork. I'm thinking for something
to merit a meeting, I'm like,who's dying? You know what I'm
(11:31):
saying? I'm like, woah, if we'remeeting about this, like
something is serious. And to thefear of like, oh, know, how are
we gonna build thatrelationship?
How will we build that rapport?I'm like, actually, when we have
less meetings about nothing,which is who's gonna do this,
who's gonna do that. Okay. Icould have solved that in five
minutes in my own brain and madeit into a, like a work breakdown
(11:53):
structure in monday.com, Asana,whatever. Then in the time that
I just saved, I could set up awalk and talk with someone two
time zones away from me saying,hey, the work day's done, I'm
gonna go take a walk.
I'd love to get to know you, doyou have twenty minutes to tell
me about your life and yourbackground? And I can set up a
walk and talk and genuinely getto know that person and not sit
(12:16):
there and dread in a meeting whyI'm there, why I was invited,
what are we even doing orsolving, and then resent the
person for wasting my time.
Susan Boles (12:25):
I mean, I have a very similar attitude towards
meetings that you do, which isif I could avoid most meetings,
I will. Not because I don'tthink they're valuable, but
because I think there are veryspecific ways in which they are
valuable. I find them supervaluable when I am brainstorming
(12:45):
or I'm trying to, like, workthrough a specific challenge or
a specific problem. There iskind of an interaction that you
can't get quite as easily viaasynchronous. Not to say that
you can't do it.
It's just it's not quite asdynamic where something somebody
else says will trigger somethingfor you to think. And so, like,
(13:06):
those kind of meanings I findsuper energizing and really
valuable. Yep. But like yousaid, you know, the who's doing
what and when, where does thisproject stand, how is the
process gonna work? I thinkthere are so many more valuable
ways to communicate thatinformation for both parties and
that everybody's busy thesedays.
(13:27):
Everybody would rather be ableto interpret that information in
the way that works best forthem. And whether that ends up
being a Loom video or a writtenbrief or an automated onboarding
sequence, I think thinking aboutcommunication in a different way
is required to be able to usethat software tool effectively,
(13:52):
regardless of whether it'sMonday or ClickUp or Notion or
Asana or whatever. You can'tjust throw a software tool at
somebody and expect it to createa more autonomous work
environment. It has to come withsome cultural changes for the
organization. And when you domake those cultural changes, I
think that it ultimately createsstronger communication.
(14:16):
It creates documentation for thecommunication. Because for the
most part, it's written down oryou can go back to it. And it's
not as ephemeral as it happeningin a meeting where somebody says
something and then ten minuteslater, you go, oh, somebody said
something really great. Now I
Kacie Brennell (14:29):
can't remember what it is. I know, right? I
hate when that happens. You'rereally nailing it, though. I
think what we're talking abouthere is behavior change.
And I think the, what I'mfeeling is the tension between
generations and an entirelydifferent way of being that
results from that generationaldivide. And I think the way that
we bridge that is with a lot ofpatience and a lot of
(14:52):
compassion, an open mind and awillingness to learn. I do have
a tendency to go into situationsthinking that my way is the
best. I think to a certainextent, we kind of have to be
that way as independent serviceproviders.
Susan Boles (15:04):
Nobody's going be like, my way sucks. Let's do it.
Let's do it a different way.Certainly not anybody who lives
in the operations side ofbusinesses.
Kacie Brennell (15:13):
Right, right. So yeah, I mean, I'm learning to
straddle the line of confidenceand experience versus like, you
know, arrogance and kind of likea flippant attitude towards
anything that is done in a waythat I wouldn't typically do it.
And there have been somemeetings that I'm like, okay, if
this meeting is run correctly,like this can be very fruitful.
(15:33):
But I think what we're facing isnine out of 10 meetings, people
aren't taught how to run them.No.
You know, if we're not decidingsomething, if we're just
chatting, we're pondering, we'rephilosophizing, we're also
living in a day and age wheremost people have more than one
job. We're competing for timeand attention. And I also wonder
too, if a lot of this return tothe office stuff that's going on
(15:59):
for people who have normalcorporate jobs is very much like
a death rattle to have controlover people, like an attempt to
have one last, let me get myhands on your time to make me
feel important type of like egothing.
Susan Boles (16:14):
It's absolutely about control. It's not about
collaboration. We'vedemonstrated that over the last
five years, people can learn howto effectively communicate
asynchronously. They caneffectively collaborate
asynchronously. There's allkinds of tools that can enable
and help that process along ifpeople are open to it.
(16:35):
But I do think that there isn'tnecessarily a value for creating
more autonomous workenvironments. And those of us
who freelance or have our owncompanies are people who
inherently do have a value forat least our own autonomy. But I
think at a kind of societallevel, autonomy isn't something
(16:59):
that's valued or prioritizedenough. And so even if we
implement tools that can createa more autonomous or more
asynchronous asynchronous workenvironment to give users
flexibility or autonomy and howand when they work. I think the
harder part, the more insidiouspart is starting to value
(17:23):
autonomy and prioritize autonomynot just for ourselves, but for
our organization as a whole.
And that requires letting go ofsome control and trusting the
people in our organization to beadults and to be able to manage
(17:43):
their own work. And I think,particularly in America, our
work culture is prettyinfantilizing when it comes to
the individual employees.
Kacie Brennell (17:54):
Yes. Oh my gosh, you nailed it. We really are
talking about behavior change.We're talking about culture
change. We're talking aboutvalues change.
And I still hold out hope, Istill hold out hope that there
are people who aspire to lead,who have the values of autonomy
and energetic balance and lifefullness. When I say life
(18:19):
fullness, I mean like, we'recoming to our work from a place
of fulfillment, not only throughthe thing that we're doing, but
from all the other aspects ofourselves that have had the
opportunity to be fulfilledbecause of the autonomy we have
over our time and our energy.It's about creating a culture of
(18:40):
workers who are enriched andfulfilled and endlessly curious,
who can show up to somethingwith their cup already full, who
don't need to be patronized orinfantilized, watched over,
controlled. So, I think you madea really good point and this is
something that I'm definitelynoticing in my role with one of
(19:02):
my newer clients too, is that atthe end of the day, the tools
really are tools. That's whatthey are.
The tool is not going to incitethe change. The change has to
come from within and the toolcan facilitate more change, but
it's not going to be the leaderand be like on the brink of
(19:22):
that. It's, it's got to comefrom a person first. And I think
I'm starting to come back downto reality with how long it
takes for people to change theirminds, change their hearts,
change their values and seewhat's possible. Because I try
to imagine, I'm like, how did weget here?
How did we get to this statewhere all these meetings are so
(19:45):
normalized? We're solving theproblems for other people and
then watching them do exactlywhat you said to do was normal.
Like, why can't we just say,hey, here's the finish line, you
are the expert, you know how todo this, get it done, call me
when it's done and we'll move onto the next one. What's going on
in that person that they thinkthat they can't do that? Because
if we just throw tools at theproblem, like nothing's ever
(20:05):
gonna change.
Susan Boles (20:07):
Yeah, I think the tool has to be coupled with
cultural change. It has to becoupled with skill development.
Because if you are not used todelegating via written word, if
you're not used to advocatingfor change via the written word,
if you are unused tocommunicating, except in a face
(20:31):
to face kind of way, there is areal need to develop different
kinds of communication skills tobe able to effectively manage
asynchronously, to effectivelymanage not face to face. And so
I think it's kind of where we'recircling around to is the tool
is important. It can be a reallystrong facilitator to make that
(20:56):
communication easier and fasterand more efficient.
There's a lot of benefits interms of, like, reporting how
well things are going whensomething database. It's in a
system. But I think without atleast tweaking what the culture
is or how we're approaching workand building those skills, I
(21:17):
think ultimately ends up being atool that people don't use as
effectively as they could. Andso it ends up being a burden and
not something that helps.
Kacie Brennell (21:27):
You're right. And honestly, I think I've taken
that really for granted. A lotof these skills that you're
talking about that comeintuitively to me, I think I
accidentally discount because Ijust assume that everybody knows
what I know. What I'm seeing isthat asynchronous communication
is not intuitive for everyone. Ithink that there are people who
(21:47):
worry if their message isgetting across or I think there
are people who don't know how tofirst independently really
reflect on what is it I need?
What am I trying to ask for? Andlike, could this have been an
email? And really, I would takethat even a step farther, right?
I'm like the meeting doesn'tneed to be an email and the
email doesn't need to existbecause the task is already in
(22:09):
Monday. You can tag me in thetask that's I'm already the
owner of, and we can have all ofour communication that's task
related on that thread in theproject management software that
the entire team can see.
Because guess what? My coworkerscan't read my emails. If I'm not
copied, I don't know what'sgoing on. But if everything is
in Monday, Asana, Smartsheets,whatever, then it's like we have
(22:33):
a single source of truth that wecan all rally behind. It's like,
imagine it being like a highpowered digital whiteboard,
throw in the water cooler forthis metaphor if you want,
because there's places to hangout and chat too.
I hope that that will be thenorm for the future. I hope the
future is now. But I can seethat it's going to take a lot of
(22:56):
patience and compassion andwillingness to model the
behavior. And also genuinecuriosity about what's getting
in the way of autonomy,independence, and trust being
the values? Or where's thebreakdown there?
Susan Boles (23:11):
I think it's capitalism. That's my answer to
everything.
Kacie Brennell (23:15):
I mean, you're not wrong.
Susan Boles (23:16):
Those are values we don't prioritize. The structure
of a capitalist system isessentially exploitation of the
workers. Like, that's thefoundation of the system. And so
if the structure is configuredfor the purpose of exploitation,
then why would we expect theworkers in the system to be able
(23:38):
to envision something different?If the standard is we're
exploiting people and they'renot able to think independently
or to act independently, whywould we expect something
different of them?
So I think the issue is reallyat a societal level, unpacking
(23:58):
some of those really deeplyingrained beliefs to see that
potentially it could be anotherway, you know, a lot of workers
and companies in other countriesthat aren't so determinedly
capitalistic. They don't havethese kinds of problems. Not to
(24:20):
say that they're all perfect,but they don't have to unlearn
that workers should haveautonomy. They grow up believing
that workers should haveautonomy.
Kacie Brennell (24:33):
Right.
Susan Boles (24:33):
We don't have to teach them that. But, you know,
here, that's reallycontradictory and sometimes
controversial to posit thatworkers should have autonomy
over their work and when they doit and where they do it and how
they do it and that they shouldbe able to work in the way that
works best for them. And thatshouldn't be controversial, but
it is.
Kacie Brennell (24:52):
Gosh, just hearing you say that makes me
still feel so like wide eyed,like an innocent Bambi like,
what? You're telling me what?And I'm like, Casey, are you
really that shocked? Like, I'vebeen in the working world now
for what, a little bit over tenyears, I guess? And I think I'm
just sometimes blinded by my ownoptimism.
And I wanna believe that thereare exceptions to the rule
(25:13):
because of course there are. ButI guess if this podcast, if this
message were to reach anyleader, anyone who has real
influence over the way of beingat their company. First, I have
so many questions, but second, Ithink I would just say like,
what matters to you and why? Anddoes what matters to you matter
(25:36):
to everyone who's working foryou? Because that values
alignment is everything.
And once we get thatestablished, then the tools can
really be like a rocket ship tosuccess. I think you might have
seen this on LinkedIn, someonepushed back and I said, isn't
the sell here that people wanttheir time back? And they're
like, oh no, know, that's kindof what we thought with email.
You know, we were all gonna beso efficient because we could
(25:58):
email and then we ended up justtaking work everywhere we go
because now emails on our phoneand we never stop. So, they're
like, if you get more productiveand you can do things faster,
you're just gonna have more workto do.
And I'm like, where does it end?Like this is not the point. The
point is, get the work done in areasonable amount of time and
then go live your life becauseyou've done enough. You're
(26:19):
earning enough. It's all enough.
We don't need to keep pushingharder, more, better, faster,
whatever.
Susan Boles (26:24):
Let's go live. I think that's one of the biggest
distinctions between companiesthat have a calmer ethos and
kind of the default companies iswhat are we using efficiency
for. Right? So efficiency is agoal at both of those
organizations. We're using thatefficiency to create more
(26:47):
margin.
What are we putting into themargin? And at the default
companies, it's we are trying tomaximize and shove as much work
and productivity into thatcreated time as possible. And in
calmer companies, we're usingthat to have margin for the
margin to exist, to do thingsthat are not work, to rest, or
(27:10):
to spend time with your kids, goenjoy a hobby, get a new hobby.
So I think the value forefficiency is really at the
heart of what we're talkingabout here. You know, we're
talking about using technologyto create efficiency, to create
margins.
But the difference between acone company and a default
company is what are you usingthat efficiency for? What's the
(27:32):
point of efficiency?
Kacie Brennell (27:33):
You nailed it. And I honestly, I don't think
I'm ever gonna understand thesepeople who are like, I'm
creating more efficiency so Ican do more work. No. Thank you.
Susan Boles (27:41):
You know, we're taught that in school. We're
taught that in work. And from avery early age, we are inundated
with messages messages that thatthe point of being efficient,
the point of being productive,the point of doing good work is
to do more of it. Capitalismessentially is designed to
eliminate rest. That's aconstruct of the system.
(28:05):
So it's very difficult to getaround that when you're still
living according to those rules.
Kacie Brennell (28:12):
Wow. Man, it's tough out there.
Susan Boles (28:14):
I think, you know, the desire for calmer companies,
the way in which you build acalmer company, you inherently
have to unpack some of thoseunconscious biases in order to
envision something that could becalmer because the default is
growth at all costs. The defaultis do more. We're going to be
(28:37):
efficient so we can do more andmake more sales and shove more
work and maximize everything. SoI don't think it's possible to
create a calmer company withoutunpacking some of that at least.
Kacie Brennell (28:47):
Absolutely. And it's a shame that a lot of that
responsibility lies in just afew people, the executive
leadership team, because itreally does need to start at the
top. I think that people like mewho have found themselves
deconstructing those oldmentalities, it became
impossible for me to stay inenvironments where everybody
(29:08):
else wasn't doing the same. Sonow I'm fortunate I found myself
in a position where I can beindependent and be selective
about who I work with and bevery cautious and be very well
boundaried. And it's working outgreat.
I'm still very early in myjourney here, I've only been
(29:28):
doing this for a little over ayear on my own, but I got my
health under control. And now,you know, I sleep at least eight
hours every night. I'm gettinggood quality rest. I have too
many hobbies to count. I'm justlike scatter brain and I'm like,
I wanna learn this, I wannalearn that, let's go here, let's
try that.
(29:49):
But it's so, it's so enrichingand all of these experiences
that I have outside of myworking hours enrich me so much
that when I do sit down to do myclient work, my mentality and
the way I think and the energythat I come at it is one that is
fulfilled and curious and notrun down or resentful or
(30:12):
begrudgingly just doingsomething because she has to.
You know, it comes from a placeof inspiration, not obligation.
I wish everyone could experiencethis.
Susan Boles (31:14):
I did an interview recently with Karen Sargent. We
were talking about her clientreport card process. And one of
the items in her client reportcard is reflection on how she's
approaching the engagement andwhether or not she feels like
she's coming from a place ofgenerosity in the engagement
(31:35):
versus, you know, resentment orannoyance. And she uses that as
a benchmark for how well is theclient engagement going and
reflects on it weekly, actually,as part of her process. And I
think it's so interesting thatyou bring it up as well because
I think so much of how we engagewith clients is a reflection of
(31:55):
how we are internally feeling.
You know, are we run down? Arewe burnt out? Are we exhausted?
And sometimes that has nothingto do with the actual client
engagement. It's more theenvironmental factors.
And when we can make sure thatwe are taken care of, it allows
us to really be in generousservice to our clients. So I
love that you brought that uptoo. Because I think that is a
(32:18):
commonality across a lot of thecompanies and founders that I
talked to who are on a journeyto run something calmer.
Kacie Brennell (32:27):
Yes. I'm new to this. Like I never used to pause
and ask like, how do I feelabout this? Because it always
used to be, well, what do theywant from me? And how can I give
it to them and excel theirexpectations oftentimes to my
own detriment?
And now I'm like, I'm not givinganything away. Like if this
needs to feel good for me or Iam not interested. And so maybe
(32:48):
that's what the default companyleaders and the default cultural
standard is afraid of is peopletaking their power and their
energy back, showing discernmentwith whom they engage and how.
But it's a step in the healthydirection, at least it has been
for me. Going out on your own isreally scary and unfortunate
because I have a lot of support.
(33:09):
I don't know if I could havedone it if I was completely on
my own. But one day I hope thatwe get to a point where people
don't have to just go out ontheir own to be able to own
their energy and their time andtheir autonomy.
Susan Boles (33:24):
I would love for people to be able
Kacie Brennell (33:25):
to experience this in traditional
environments, but I think whatwe're seeing is if you do, that
currently is exception to therule, not the rule.
Susan Boles (33:35):
Agreed. So on LinkedIn, you made a mention
about codependency andperfectionism when it comes to
asynchronous work styles, whichwas super intriguing. So tell me
more about what you're thinkingin that area.
Kacie Brennell (33:51):
Oh, wow. Gosh, this is so good. Okay, so code I
understand codependency in thiscontext as like, let's say like
manager or managee, like directreport. Codependency would be
like the manager needing thedirect report to perform a
certain way so that the managercan feel worthy. Like she did a
good job.
There's a codependency therewhere the manager doesn't see
(34:12):
the direct report as like herown entity, her own person with
her own skills, output or valueis completely separate from that
of the manager. This is justlike a silly example of
codependency in the workplace.Right? And then the
perfectionism is a relentlessunwillingness to make mistakes,
(34:33):
to be caught with your pantsdown, to be caught maybe only
getting a base hit when youpromised a home run at the first
at bat. I think that these twovillains are very much obstacles
to a calm business because aslong as you are operating in a
(34:55):
mental state of perfectionism,you'll never pause to look at
your values and think like, howcan I experience a growth
mindset?
Because like a growth mindsetand perfectionism are completely
at odds with each other. Youknow, like you can't have one
with the other, they're mutuallyexclusive. So as long as
perfectionism is seeping itsclaws into your mentality and
(35:15):
your way of being, I thinkexperiencing calm, it's a far
away, far away goal. And thenthe codependency part, this I
also think is a little bit whatwe've been discussing thus far
in this episode is like, peoplestruggle to trust and they think
they need to control becausethey see other people as like a
(35:38):
reflection of their goodness. Soif you're a manager, you're kind
of like, well, how my teamperforms is a direct reflection
of me.
So if I'm a perfectionist, Ineed to control everything and
micromanage because what ifsomebody finds out that somebody
made a mistake, it's going to beon me. I think the healthy,
(35:58):
mature, emotionally adeptversion of this would be like,
I'm a manager, this is where Istart and I end, this is where
the direct reports start andend. We are separate people with
separate capabilities, withseparate strengths and
weaknesses. I'm going to give myteam what they need to know,
(36:19):
like what's expected of them andthen I'm gonna say, go do it and
call me when you're done or callme when you get stuck. And then
whatever happens has usuallyvery little to do with me, and
everything to do with the directreports.
I did not know this four yearsago. I didn't and it sucks to
(36:40):
admit this. It's one of thosehard lessons that it's
embarrassing and it hurts andnobody likes to talk about the
times they really messed up, butI really messed this up as a
manager and I'm stilldeconstructing my internalized
perfectionism. Where it comesfrom, why I have it, what
triggers it, how I project itonto other people. And those are
(37:01):
like the super villains of calm,they really are.
Susan Boles (37:05):
I mean, I don't think it's a reflection on you
or any manager, honestly,because so few supervisors get
training. Almost no one getstraining in how to be a good
leader or how to be a goodmanager. The exception to that
is people who have been in themilitary. So I got a lot of
(37:27):
leadership training because Iwas in ROTC. I literally have a
minor in leadership studiesbecause that's translates to is
I spent four years learning howto be a leader.
And the military does a reallygood job of teaching leadership
strategy and styles and at alllevels of the military and in
(37:47):
all branches. Outside of themilitary, I have never seen an
organization do a really goodjob at training supervisors.
They they pick supervisors basedon if they're good at doing
their work, which is a verydifferent skill set than being a
good manager. Being somebody whois really good at enabling other
(38:10):
people to do their best work,which is essentially what a good
manager should be doing. But theparadigm is not there.
The training is not there. Andso I think a lot of people have
the same experience you have,which is, man, I really messed
that up. But honestly, why wouldwe expect you to know how to do
it? It's a skill just like anyother. And we all expect that by
(38:32):
putting somebody in a leadershipposition, they'll know how to do
it.
But it's actually a skill thatyou have to learn just like any
other.
Kacie Brennell (38:40):
Yeah. Yeah. But my toxic trait being a
recovering perfectionist is thatI would expect me to know
without training and I wouldexpect me to hit a grand slam on
the first at bat. You know, whenyou have more calm, you can take
the time to deconstruct yourcodependency and your
perfectionist patterns. And whenyou have time to deconstruct
those, you can create more calm.
(39:01):
Because now I know what to lookfor. Now I know where things,
where patterns came from, howthey come out in work
environments and having had thatnegative experience before. Now
I know what I don't want torepeat. But I don't know what
formal training people aregetting outside of the military.
If we're reading books and we'relistening to podcasts and that's
kind of like the best we can dobecause there's no amazing
(39:24):
global training on how to be acompetent leader.
I don't know if people arelearning about the emotional
side of codependency attachmenttheory, more of like therapeutic
therapy related topics. I don'tknow if people are relating
those to leadership, but thathas definitely been a path that
I've been down for the past fouryears. I see those two things as
(39:45):
inextricable now.
Susan Boles (39:46):
Yeah, I think in order to be a good leader, a
good manager, you have to haveunlearned enough and know enough
about you and your style andwhere your strengths are and
where your weaknesses are andalso be able to see that in your
own direct reports. Because ifyou're gonna develop somebody's
skills, you have to be able toclearly see their weaknesses and
(40:10):
their strengths and all of thosepieces. So I I think there are a
lot of good resources out there,but I do think it ends up being
mostly left up to theindividual. Individual. Or you
get, you know, one afternoon ofquote unquote supervisor
training that is mostly, youknow, HR legal training, not
leadership training.
I think one of the reasons thatso many traditional work
(40:36):
environments feel really toxicis because nobody's been taught
any other way.
Kacie Brennell (40:42):
Yeah. And, you know, we do a great job of
finding individual solutions tosocietal problems. You know,
that was the straw that brokethe camel's back for me as a
young middle manager, becauseyou know, being a middle manager
is already stressful enoughbecause you have to communicate
up and down and sideways and doyour own work. Add to the mix
(41:03):
that there was no training, verylittle support. It was a perfect
disaster for failure.
Like I said, I'm not proud ofit. I wish I could go back and
do things differently, but maybenow's my chance. But I think in
that post that you referred to,was I kind of relating it back
to this call back to the officephenomenon that we're having now
where people are like, we nowwe're gonna go minimum four days
(41:26):
back to office. And I'm like,clearly the masses or the people
in power who are calling theseshots have not taken the time to
address their own perfectionism,codependency controlling
patterns. I imagine because ifit were the case
Susan Boles (41:40):
Or they own corporate real estate.
Kacie Brennell (41:43):
Probably. Oh, and that's another thing too.
It's like, is everybody justtrying to justify their rent? Is
that what's going on?
Susan Boles (41:49):
That is a huge part of it. I fundamentally believe
it's about control and moneybecause that's pretty much what
it always comes down to.
Kacie Brennell (41:56):
Yeah. And it's a shame. It's a shame because
there there is a massiveopportunity for people to look
inward right now. There's amassive opportunity for us to
model a new behavior. The timeshave lent themselves to a
structural change.
I perceive so much unwillingnessto do things differently, and to
(42:20):
keep things the way that theywere. And so my default is like,
okay, well, I'm just going to dowhat I can, which sucks because
again, it's an individualsolution to a very systemic
problem. But at the end of theday, I can only control what I
can control. That's myself. Andnot everybody has the luxury.
Susan Boles (42:38):
The takeaway here is that meetings don't equal
management. Most of the timethey're just proof of control.
The Calmer alternative issolving for more autonomy. Clear
ownership. Decisions writtendown where everyone can see
them.
Tools that support the workinstead of dragging everyone
into another room to talk aboutit. That's really what the
(43:00):
management style lever from thecalmer framework is all about.
Under capitalism, the default isauthoritarian, top down,
presence driven, and always on.But calmer management shifts
towards autonomy, trustingadults to do their own work, and
creating systems that make thatpossible. So here's your tiny
(43:21):
action for this week.
Pick one recurring meeting, justone, and ask, does this really
need to happen live? If theanswer is no, move it to an
async update. Post the owner,the outcome, the deadline, and a
quick three bullet progress notein your project management tool.
And then protect that time.Don't backfill it.
(43:44):
Let the margin stand even ifit's uncomfortable at first.
Because calm isn't aboutsqueezing more in. It's about
keeping the space you create.Until next time, stay calm.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.