March 11, 2025 • 27 mins
Business is personal—so why do we so often separate relationships from our work?
In this episode, Tara Robertson, leadership coach and DEI consultant, shares why she set a KPI around the number of new friends she makes this year. We explore how measuring relationships impacts not only joy but also business sustainability.
Tara realized that working alone was draining her energy, so she made a bold decision: she would never go into an organization alone again. Instead, she’d co-lead, collaborate, and focus on working with values-aligned people who light her up. Now, she’s tracking new friendships as a key measure of success.
Together, we dig into:
- Why business and friendship aren’t at odds (despite what the corporate world tells us)
- How Tara defines friendship vs. business collaboration
- The impact of connection on work quality, creativity, and sustainability
- How setting a friendship-based KPI brings more joy and alignment to business decisions
- Different ways to track and measure relationships in your own work
Whether you're an extrovert looking for more collaboration or an introvert like me, figuring out how to intentionally create relationships in business can be a game-changer.
Connect with Tara:
Connect with Susan:
Resources & Related Episodes
- (00:00) - EDIT 2 / Final E114 Tara Robertson
- (00:49) - The Importance of Friendships in Business
- (01:28) - Setting KPIs for Friendships
- (03:59) - Defining Friendships vs. Collaborations
- (06:23) - Tracking and Measuring Friendships
- (10:24) - Incorporating Friendships into Business
- (14:15) - Balancing Professionalism and Authenticity
- (24:54) - Conclusion: The Power of Connection
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Robertson (00:05):
It's gonna make my work and by extension in my
life more interesting and morejoyful. I'm not sure if there's
gonna be a financial impact onmy business, but this is my
business and my life. And I havemany, many years left to work,
and I I want this to beinteresting. I want to make an
impact, and I want it to besustainable. And doing stuff
(00:28):
with friends, I think that's oneway I can do this.
Susan Boles (00:35):
Everyone can use new friends, especially at this
moment in time. A lot of us arelooking for community and
connections. But are new friendsimportant enough for you to
create a KPI around it? I'mSusan Bowles, and this is Beyond
Margins, the show where wedeconstruct how to engineer a
calmer business. Today, we'retalking about friendships, which
(00:59):
might seem a little weird sincethis is a show where we mostly
talk about business, and thosethings frequently seem like
they're at odds.
It's not personal. It's justbusiness. That's a pretty common
refrain, but business isinherently personal because
we're all people even though wemight sometimes forget that. And
(01:21):
people need connection. We allneed a village.
That's where friends come in.Tara Robertson is a leadership
coach and a diversity, equityand inclusion consultant and she
set a KPI for herself this year.It's number of new friends made.
It's one of her biggest goalsfor this year and she even
(01:42):
created a new joint businessventure around it with a friend.
Alright, Tara.
So you set a KPI for thisupcoming year around the number
of friends you're making. Tellme a little bit about why that
was important to you or what wasgoing on that made that such an
important focus for you thisyear.
Tara Robertson (02:04):
I'm an executive leadership coach, and I'm a
diversity, equity, and inclusionstrategist. But most of the work
I do, I'm working solo with aclient. And I'm quite a an
extroverted person, and it it'sbecome lonely. So I made a
decision at the end of last yearto not go into organizations
alone anymore, so I'm always coleading with someone. I just
(02:26):
have more fun, which means thework is better, and I also get
to keep learning.
Susan Boles (02:32):
I love that. So walk me through how you decided
on the number of friends asbeing the best indicator that
you're making progress or thatyou're having fun.
Tara Robertson (02:45):
I haven't done a rigorous analysis on this yet.
Like, I I'm in my diversity,equity, and inclusion work, it's
very much data driven. So I'm,like, kinda positing how I'm
gonna do this. But each quarter,I imagine I'm gonna look back at
my spreadsheet of work and add anew column, like, new friend
made, either with someone I'mpartnering with or with a
(03:08):
client. And then there's alsoworking with existing friends.
I think I should be able tocount those things. And if it's
like, I'm not sure if I made afriend, it's like, then that's
not a friendship. That's like,we partnered together on
something. We worked onsomething for a brief time. So
that's how I'm gonna start bycounting.
The pre thing on that means Ihave to be working with other
(03:30):
people who are values aligned tome. I was noticing, especially
on the diversity, equity, andinclusion work, my interest is
flagging a little bit. Like, thework was starting to feel a
little samey. I've been doingthis work for fifteen years, so
I want to be continually excitedby it. So I think my hypothesis
is that by thinking about valuesof the organization and the
people I'm working with, I'll beworking with people who light me
(03:53):
up more and that I'll also lightthem up.
Susan Boles (03:57):
That totally makes sense. I wanna dig in a little
bit to the idea of a friendversus the idea of a
collaborator or the idea of apartner. Or, you know, I think
when we think about businesskinds of things, friendship is
one of those things that mostpeople don't take into account.
(04:20):
We take into account potentialclient or potential
collaborator. But when we'rethinking about friendship, like,
what does that actually mean toyou, or what does that look like
to you?
Tara Robertson (04:32):
So I think for me, the difference between a
friend and, like, a businesscollaborator would be that I
wanna spend time with them evenafter the engagement's over. I
think there's also a a bit abouttransparency. Like, if stuff's
getting a little messy or if I'mfeeling like, am I doing a good
(04:52):
job here or some insecurity onmy part? I can be open with that
with a friend. With a businesscollaborator, I generally don't
share those things.
I keep them kind of behind thecurtain. So there's a level, I
get I think of intimacy, a levelof transparency and authenticity
with a friend.
Susan Boles (05:12):
Yeah. I would totally agree with that. I have
business friends, and then Ihave colleagues or Colleagues.
Collaborator. You know?
It's the, do I feel a compulsionto be professional, or can I be
really vulnerable and share youknow, when somebody asks, like,
(05:33):
oh, how are things? How honestam I gonna be about how much I'm
sharing there? So I can totallysee the level of vulnerability
and how comfortable you are withthat being a good measurement
for is this a friend, is thisnot a friend.
Tara Robertson (05:47):
There's also, like, how I I come to the work.
When I'm insecure, I tend toover deliver, which means I'm
wasting time. I'm delivering alevel of perfection that is not
required. I'm up in my headabout stories about what the
client needs or how I'm showingup. And what I like about
working with friends is I can behonest about that and get an
(06:08):
honest response.
So it might be like, yeah. Thatthat's about 80% done. It needs
more polish. Or I might hear,no. No.
You're good. Like, stop. Stop.
Susan Boles (06:23):
Now that we kind of have a good idea of what a
friend looks like, are youthinking about friends as a kind
of de facto metric for somethingelse? Are you using number of
friends to measure overallhappiness? Is it a metric for
potential work? Or is it reallyjust about I wanna work with
(06:47):
friends and that brings me joy,so I'm setting a KPI around
that?
Tara Robertson (06:52):
That one. The friends and joy piece. Again, I
think it's helping me be clearerabout not only the work that I'm
doing, but who I'm doing it withand how we're doing it together.
And I'm sure I'm gonna haveprojects this year where I work
with people where it's a greatcollaboration and we don't
become friends. That's fine too.
But I I wanna start to trackthis because it's important for
(07:12):
me. Like, being connected topeople and being in
relationships that light me upis really important.
Susan Boles (07:19):
Yeah. I think a lot of people are feeling that,
especially, you know, with allthe chaos happening, at least in
The US right now. I think a lotof people are feeling a real
need for connection, forcommunity, and leaning into the
support that can come fromhaving a genuine friend that you
(07:41):
don't get from having a businesscolleague?
Tara Robertson (07:45):
Yeah. It's also making me think. The thing I
love about being a businessowner is the freedom and the
flexibility and the creativity.So I'm trying this. I think it's
gonna work out, and it's gonna,like, highlight some good things
that I want to keep core to mybusiness, but maybe it doesn't
work out at all.
Like, also the freedom toexperiment and the freedom to
(08:05):
say, I'm creating this as a KPIfor myself is something that I
really value.
Susan Boles (08:10):
Even if you don't hit your benchmark of number of
friends, I really can't think ofa downside of intentionally
curating more friends in yourlife.
Tara Robertson (08:19):
I'm aiming for 10 this first quarter. I'm just
curious, like, how many of theengagements I have? Would I say
the people I'm working with aregenuine friends or I've created
a new friend?
Susan Boles (08:29):
Tara is using her KPI around friendship to help
her create deeper connectionsand bring more joy to her
business. It's not necessarilytied to other areas of her
business, which works reallywell for her, and that might be
your vibe too. But if you'remore like me, you might need a
bit more structure or strategybehind what you're measuring. So
let's
Tara Robertson (08:49):
play out a little
Susan Boles (08:49):
thought experiment here. What a defacto measure
for? Well, it could be a way tohelp develop new clients or
referral partners. New friendsmade could be a way to access
more resources around support.Maybe it's about finding a
community that can be yourbusiness village.
(09:12):
New friends could also be a wayto build more emotional or
energetic margins for yourself.And while Tara is counting the
number of friends as her measureof success, there are lots of
other ways you might considercreating KPIs around the idea of
friendship. In the episode withKaren Sargent, we talked about
building a client report card.You could add a rating to that
(09:32):
card about how established yourfriendship is with that client.
You could also track how long ittakes you to build a friendship
with the goal of figuring outhow to establish friendships
faster or maybe you wanna set aKPI around actions that would
help you build friendships.
So you set set a metric aroundhow many times you reach out to
people you have existingrelationships with to see if
(09:55):
they wanna hang out. That wouldbe a great way to make progress
on deepening the relationshipsyou already have. Or if you're
more concerned about making newfriends, maybe you set a KPI
around reaching out to newconnections on LinkedIn. There
are tons of different ways youcan go about creating some
calmer KPIs in your business.And even if you have the same
(10:15):
goal as someone else, in thiscase we're talking about new
friends made, the specific KPIyou set around that can look
really different.
We're gonna take a quick breakto hear from our sponsors but
when we come back, Tara and Italk about the nuances of how to
actually develop friendshipsespecially with clients. So talk
(10:36):
to me a little bit about how youare thinking about this
integrating with the rest ofyour business. So are there
other systems or data or areasof your business that you're
focusing on that this ties intoor you're thinking about tying
it into?
Tara Robertson (10:55):
Natalia Staniel, who was on a previous episode of
yours, I was her client a coupleof times, actually, but we also
became friends. Like, she had abig win in her business, and I
showed up at her house with caketo celebrate her. And that's,
like, the moment where we kindof stepped into also being
(11:15):
friends. We've been thinking upin since December, and we're
actually launching soon abusiness network called The Long
Table that's about bothdeepening relationships with
folks and referrals, bothopportunities and revenue
opportunities. So we've steppedback and looked at our our
relationship and, like, what isso good about this?
(11:36):
Like, we genuinely like eachother. We share values. And
through that deep connectionthat we forged over time, we've
referred work to each other, andwe came up with this idea for a
workshop that was a fundraiserfor something that we both care
about. And those things thatbenefited both of our businesses
(11:58):
came out of the solidrelationship and friendship. And
there's a bunch of kind oftraditional business networking
groups where it's moretransactional, and we're like,
how can it also be relational?
Susan Boles (12:09):
Clearly, the idea of friendship, the idea of
relationships is somethingyou've been thinking really
deeply about. How are youthinking about incorporating
that value into either the wayyou're structuring the long
table or structuring your ownservices? Talk to me about how
the value for friendship isending up imbued in your work.
Tara Robertson (12:35):
Well, for the long table, everything needs to
be a relationship and referralor revenue. And I had this great
idea. What if we had these,like, different kind of
challenges and things to getpeople out of their comfort zone
to try new things, sort of likebusiness hypothesis testing. And
Natalia was like, that soundslike a great idea. Which one
(12:58):
does it map to?
And I was like, neither. Sowe're like, okay. Now that I
take those out the windowbecause it it doesn't align with
this project. So that's kind ofwhere we used it as a filter
for, is this something thatwe're designing in or designing
out?
Susan Boles (13:15):
One of the challenges that I find when I am
personally designing services isthat it is really difficult to
keep a focus, particularly ifyou're someone who iterates and
comes up with all kinds of coolideas. Being able to understand,
is this part of the core valueor is this something that is
(13:35):
tangential and maybe fun? How doI map this back so that the
value for really relationshipbuilding, which is what we're
talking about, throughfriendship, I think it's really
difficult to filter so that onlythe things that impact that
value stay in. And I thinkthat's a really difficult skill
(13:58):
to build. It's much easier to dowhen somebody else is like, I
like that idea.
Answer my question.
Tara Robertson (14:05):
And that's where having two brains there was
helpful. I get carried away whenI'm ideating like, this is a
great idea. It's like, it is agreat idea, but not for this
thing.
Susan Boles (14:15):
When you're thinking about developing
relationships, either withclients or with other new
friends, do you think about inperson relationships and online
only relationships differently?
Tara Robertson (14:26):
There's a few people that we have standing,
like, social Zoom calls, eithermonthly or quarterly. I really
value those relationships. Andit's been I've been playing
around in the last four yearssince I've been in business.
Like, what's the right amount ofsocial time? I spend a lot of
time on a screen like a lot ofus do, and could be a Zoom call
(14:49):
or it could be us both puttingon our headphones and going for
a walk in our neighborhood wherewe're connecting, but we're also
not in front of a screen.
I can over rotate and want toconnect more than I have time
sometimes. So it's also beingrealistic with what my business
needs from me and how muchsocial time I have.
Susan Boles (15:09):
So I am an introvert. I am not extroverted
at all. And definitely somethingI need to take into
consideration is I will havespurts where I'm like, I wanna
connect, and I'll book callswith everybody. And then when it
comes time to actually do that,I don't have the energy because
I've over committed. So I thinkthat being able to intentionally
(15:31):
pay attention to where yourenergy is so that you can commit
enough time to develop afriendship because friendships,
they're hard to develop.
Especially if you're trying todo lots at different points in
time. It can be very timeintensive.
Tara Robertson (15:49):
I, again, I like doing stuff with people. So I
started the coach's barbecue,which is a global free coaching
on conference. We're on thefourth or the fifth one now.
There's four of us on theorganizing team. We've got a
pretty good system dialed innow, so we meet probably four
times every half year to put onan event.
(16:10):
And our check ins for the hourmeeting, we spend about half an
hour just talking about life,and then we move into the stuff
we need to do. So it's actuallyquite a good balance for me to
connect and get to know thesefolks deeper and do a thing
together.
Susan Boles (16:27):
That makes sense. Is there a way that you
translate that to clientrelationships? So I'm thinking
about if you wanted to develop aclient relationship into an
eventual friendship, are therepieces of the client engagement
that you would talk aboutpersonal stuff? How do you start
(16:49):
to share vulnerably within thecontext of a client
relationship? Because I thinkthat is a challenge for a lot of
folks as, you know, when wethink clients, there's this wall
of professionalism.
We have to be professional. Wecan't cross the personal to
business barrier. I think it'sreally difficult to figure out
(17:10):
what to share, what not toshare, particularly as the
provider, or do you think it'son the client to initiate
whether they're willing to bevulnerable?
Tara Robertson (17:23):
So I'm gonna give two answers because I kinda
have two different streams ofwork. On the consulting side, I
wanna spend a bit more time onthe being with my my clients,
like, around their lives, howthey're doing, the bigger
context of what the work is thatwe're doing together before
diving into the agenda. In myearlier days consulting, I felt
(17:45):
like to be professional, Ireally needed to deliver a lot
and fast and whatever for myclient. And the client
engagements that have been themost impactful are where there
has been a connection. Sospending time a little bit of
time each time we meet.
Making sure we're connected ashuman beings, I think, is
important. On the coaching side,it's really about my client. So
(18:09):
sometimes I'll share a littlebit about my life if it's
relevant and then bring it backto the client about what what
new things are coming up forthem. It would be a negotiation
after, like, okay. Like, thatwas great.
I actually wanna know yououtside of this, and I want you
to know me. Are you interestedin that, and what could that
look like? Like, when you'reworking with your clients, how
(18:30):
much of yourself can you bring,or how much connection or
authenticity do you bring?
Susan Boles (18:36):
I think it has changed over time. I think when
I first started out consulting,I was very focused on being
professional and being credible.And part of that is, you know,
my positioning, I guess. Youknow, a lot of the time, people
are encountering me as a CFO oras a COO. And for a very long
(19:01):
time, I really thought that Ineeded to embody what they were
going to picture as their CFO.
It felt very claustrophobic forme to always be, quote, unquote,
professional. When I started to,from a content perspective, let
(19:22):
myself be more human and lesscorporate, you know, when I
started telling people that,like, if you want somebody to
show up in a blue suit and use awhole bunch of jargon, I'm just
not the right fit for you. Ifyou want somebody who's probably
gonna show up in a gray hoodieand use, you know, normal people
(19:45):
words and be empathetic aboutyour situation, then we're
probably a good fit. So I thinkonce I started leaning into that
more in my content and mymarketing, that made me much
more comfortable bringing who Iam as a person to my engagements
(20:05):
because I had kind of set up theexpectation that that's what
people were gonna get. And Istarted using that, honestly, as
a filter for who was gonna be agood fit as a client.
So if you're very concernedwith, like, quote, unquote
professionalism, if you reallywant, like, the buttoned up
finance geek kind of thing,you're very turned off by most
(20:29):
of my content. You're not gonnabe attracted to me. And I think
that allowed me then to be morecomfortable showing up, I
wouldn't say as my whole self,but I do bring a lot of my
personal experience, my personalperspectives into my work with
clients. There was a a line Ihad on my website probably five
(20:50):
or six years ago. It was a verysmall line on I think it was on
my about my about page, and itwas just something like zero
rules and QuickBooks drools.
I I'm not a fan of Intuitproducts. In general, QuickBooks
particularly annoys me. But Ijust had this little line on my
about page, and I had a fewtimes where I'd be on a call
(21:15):
with someone and they wouldmention it. It was act so the
people that worked well with menever said anything.
Tara Robertson (21:21):
Got it.
Susan Boles (21:22):
The people who I'd be talking to them on, like, a
sales call and they'd be like,hey. So this line is on your
website. You might wanna thinkabout taking that down. It's
pretty unprofessional. And I'dbe like, noted.
Also, I don't think we shouldwork together. Like, you clearly
either don't have a sense ofhumor or you're just like, we
(21:44):
are not going to vibe together.And it ended up being like, I
thought it was a throwaway line,and it ended up essentially
being a vibe check for who wasgonna be a good fit. And so I
think the more I've leaned intothat, the more comfortable I am
in client engagements just beingme and showing up in I will
(22:04):
almost always be wearing a blackT shirt, gray hoodie, and jeans.
Like
Tara Robertson (22:08):
So what do you mean?
Susan Boles (22:09):
Have a problem with your CFO showing up like that,
then we're not a good fit
Tara Robertson (22:14):
necessarily. You're clear about who you are
and more unapologetic aboutbeing like, listen. I am an
expert, and I wear a grayhoodie.
Susan Boles (22:25):
It was really hard though because I think, you
know, a lot of us come out ofthe corporate world, and it's so
drilled into us that it's allabout business and we're
supposed to be professional andwe are not human beings. We're a
cog in the machine. It's reallyhard to unlearn that even from
(22:45):
something like writing. Youknow? How many of us come out
and write an email sounding likewe're in a corporate environment
instead of sounding like we're ahuman being talking one human to
another human?
And I think being able to getpast that, like, I need to be
(23:07):
buttoned up and just showing upas you are, whether that is
somebody who makes jokes aboutaccounting systems or whether
you're just someone who, youknow, happens to do yoga and you
want to mention that. I thinkthe more we can show up as
humans, the easier it is tobuild a real genuine
(23:30):
relationship with with thepeople that we're working with.
Tara Robertson (23:34):
And for me, I would feel much more comfortable
being honest about what myactual business challenges are
and the tough questions andperhaps the gaps that I've got
with someone in a gray hoodieversus someone who writes in a
corporate way and has the bluesuit and was all buttoned up.
Like
Susan Boles (23:51):
You know what's funny is I've seen it in client
reactions. Like, early on, Iwould get on calls and potential
clients would be like, you'regonna hate me because x y z or,
really not feeling comfortableasking questions because they
felt like it was a stupidquestion. The more human I was,
(24:12):
the more comfortable people areshowing up and saying, I don't
know this. I don't understandthis. Can you explain it to me?
Tara Robertson (24:19):
I definitely experienced that on the
consulting side of my business,especially right now, diversity,
equity, and inclusion stuff.There's an extra layer of not
only do I not know somethinghere, but, like, I should know.
And I feel like I'm judgingmyself, and I'm worrying that
other people are judging me.That's why you hired an expert.
I I know a lot of stuff, but Idon't know your organization.
(24:42):
You know your organization. Sotogether, we're a great team to
figure out what's gonna work foryour organization right now.
Susan Boles (24:54):
How are you thinking about the impact of
having more friends with who youare interacting in your
business? How do you feel it'sgonna make your business or your
work calmer or more joyful?
Tara Robertson (25:08):
It's gonna make my work and by extension than my
life more interesting and morejoyful. I'm I'm not sure if
there's gonna be a financialimpact on my business, but this
is my business and my life. AndI have many, many years left to
work, and I I want this to beinteresting. I want to make an
impact, and I want it to besustainable. And doing stuff
(25:31):
with friends, I think that's oneway I can do this.
Susan Boles (25:36):
I agree. As somebody who spends a lot of
time thinking about both metricsand measuring businesses in an
unconventional way, I'm reallyinterested to see because my gut
says it probably will have apositive impact on both revenue
and quality of clientengagements. And the more we
think about building deeperrelationships, I really don't
(25:58):
think there's a downside tothat. I I just don't.
Tara Robertson (26:02):
Especially now, there's been a lot of
disconnection. What's going onpolitically right now, there's
tremendous polarization. So ifwe can work in a way that
connects us to like minded andnot like minded people and
connect human to human, like,that's how we're gonna move
forward both as individuals, asbusiness owners, as corporation
(26:27):
owners, and as a society. Like,it's about one to one
relationships. That's whereeverything starts.
Susan Boles (26:37):
A lot of us are craving connection and community
right now, and creating a KPIaround something that's so
important is a great way ofmaking sure you are making
progress towards it. Somethinglike finding community might
feel intangible, but you cancreate very real measurements
that help you get there. Whetherthat's a KPI around the actions
(26:59):
you wanna take or, like Tara,the actual number of friends
you're making. Even something assimple as a daily rating around
how connected you feel might bea great place to start. Those
are all tangible measures thathelp you tell whether or not
you're actually making progress,and they help keep you on track.
(27:20):
That's what great KPIs do. Bigthanks to everyone who supports
Beyond Margins. If you're alistener, a sponsor, or a
partner of any kind, Iabsolutely couldn't do this show
without you. You can supportthis show by leaving a rating
and a review. It really doeshelp new listeners hit play with
more confidence.
(27:40):
Thanks for listening, and untilnext time, stay calm.
It's gonna make my work and by extension in my
life more interesting and morejoyful. I'm not sure if there's
gonna be a financial impact onmy business, but this is my
business and my life. And I havemany, many years left to work,
and I I want this to beinteresting. I want to make an
impact, and I want it to besustainable. And doing stuff
(00:28):
with friends, I think that's oneway I can do this.
Susan Boles (00:35):
Everyone can use new friends, especially at this
moment in time. A lot of us arelooking for community and
connections. But are new friendsimportant enough for you to
create a KPI around it? I'mSusan Bowles, and this is Beyond
Margins, the show where wedeconstruct how to engineer a
calmer business. Today, we'retalking about friendships, which
(00:59):
might seem a little weird sincethis is a show where we mostly
talk about business, and thosethings frequently seem like
they're at odds.
It's not personal. It's justbusiness. That's a pretty common
refrain, but business isinherently personal because
we're all people even though wemight sometimes forget that. And
(01:21):
people need connection. We allneed a village.
That's where friends come in.Tara Robertson is a leadership
coach and a diversity, equityand inclusion consultant and she
set a KPI for herself this year.It's number of new friends made.
It's one of her biggest goalsfor this year and she even
(01:42):
created a new joint businessventure around it with a friend.
Alright, Tara.
So you set a KPI for thisupcoming year around the number
of friends you're making. Tellme a little bit about why that
was important to you or what wasgoing on that made that such an
important focus for you thisyear.
Tara Robertson (02:04):
I'm an executive leadership coach, and I'm a
diversity, equity, and inclusionstrategist. But most of the work
I do, I'm working solo with aclient. And I'm quite a an
extroverted person, and it it'sbecome lonely. So I made a
decision at the end of last yearto not go into organizations
alone anymore, so I'm always coleading with someone. I just
(02:26):
have more fun, which means thework is better, and I also get
to keep learning.
Susan Boles (02:32):
I love that. So walk me through how you decided
on the number of friends asbeing the best indicator that
you're making progress or thatyou're having fun.
Tara Robertson (02:45):
I haven't done a rigorous analysis on this yet.
Like, I I'm in my diversity,equity, and inclusion work, it's
very much data driven. So I'm,like, kinda positing how I'm
gonna do this. But each quarter,I imagine I'm gonna look back at
my spreadsheet of work and add anew column, like, new friend
made, either with someone I'mpartnering with or with a
(03:08):
client. And then there's alsoworking with existing friends.
I think I should be able tocount those things. And if it's
like, I'm not sure if I made afriend, it's like, then that's
not a friendship. That's like,we partnered together on
something. We worked onsomething for a brief time. So
that's how I'm gonna start bycounting.
The pre thing on that means Ihave to be working with other
(03:30):
people who are values aligned tome. I was noticing, especially
on the diversity, equity, andinclusion work, my interest is
flagging a little bit. Like, thework was starting to feel a
little samey. I've been doingthis work for fifteen years, so
I want to be continually excitedby it. So I think my hypothesis
is that by thinking about valuesof the organization and the
people I'm working with, I'll beworking with people who light me
(03:53):
up more and that I'll also lightthem up.
Susan Boles (03:57):
That totally makes sense. I wanna dig in a little
bit to the idea of a friendversus the idea of a
collaborator or the idea of apartner. Or, you know, I think
when we think about businesskinds of things, friendship is
one of those things that mostpeople don't take into account.
(04:20):
We take into account potentialclient or potential
collaborator. But when we'rethinking about friendship, like,
what does that actually mean toyou, or what does that look like
to you?
Tara Robertson (04:32):
So I think for me, the difference between a
friend and, like, a businesscollaborator would be that I
wanna spend time with them evenafter the engagement's over. I
think there's also a a bit abouttransparency. Like, if stuff's
getting a little messy or if I'mfeeling like, am I doing a good
(04:52):
job here or some insecurity onmy part? I can be open with that
with a friend. With a businesscollaborator, I generally don't
share those things.
I keep them kind of behind thecurtain. So there's a level, I
get I think of intimacy, a levelof transparency and authenticity
with a friend.
Susan Boles (05:12):
Yeah. I would totally agree with that. I have
business friends, and then Ihave colleagues or Colleagues.
Collaborator. You know?
It's the, do I feel a compulsionto be professional, or can I be
really vulnerable and share youknow, when somebody asks, like,
(05:33):
oh, how are things? How honestam I gonna be about how much I'm
sharing there? So I can totallysee the level of vulnerability
and how comfortable you are withthat being a good measurement
for is this a friend, is thisnot a friend.
Tara Robertson (05:47):
There's also, like, how I I come to the work.
When I'm insecure, I tend toover deliver, which means I'm
wasting time. I'm delivering alevel of perfection that is not
required. I'm up in my headabout stories about what the
client needs or how I'm showingup. And what I like about
working with friends is I can behonest about that and get an
(06:08):
honest response.
So it might be like, yeah. Thatthat's about 80% done. It needs
more polish. Or I might hear,no. No.
You're good. Like, stop. Stop.
Susan Boles (06:23):
Now that we kind of have a good idea of what a
friend looks like, are youthinking about friends as a kind
of de facto metric for somethingelse? Are you using number of
friends to measure overallhappiness? Is it a metric for
potential work? Or is it reallyjust about I wanna work with
(06:47):
friends and that brings me joy,so I'm setting a KPI around
that?
Tara Robertson (06:52):
That one. The friends and joy piece. Again, I
think it's helping me be clearerabout not only the work that I'm
doing, but who I'm doing it withand how we're doing it together.
And I'm sure I'm gonna haveprojects this year where I work
with people where it's a greatcollaboration and we don't
become friends. That's fine too.
But I I wanna start to trackthis because it's important for
(07:12):
me. Like, being connected topeople and being in
relationships that light me upis really important.
Susan Boles (07:19):
Yeah. I think a lot of people are feeling that,
especially, you know, with allthe chaos happening, at least in
The US right now. I think a lotof people are feeling a real
need for connection, forcommunity, and leaning into the
support that can come fromhaving a genuine friend that you
(07:41):
don't get from having a businesscolleague?
Tara Robertson (07:45):
Yeah. It's also making me think. The thing I
love about being a businessowner is the freedom and the
flexibility and the creativity.So I'm trying this. I think it's
gonna work out, and it's gonna,like, highlight some good things
that I want to keep core to mybusiness, but maybe it doesn't
work out at all.
Like, also the freedom toexperiment and the freedom to
(08:05):
say, I'm creating this as a KPIfor myself is something that I
really value.
Susan Boles (08:10):
Even if you don't hit your benchmark of number of
friends, I really can't think ofa downside of intentionally
curating more friends in yourlife.
Tara Robertson (08:19):
I'm aiming for 10 this first quarter. I'm just
curious, like, how many of theengagements I have? Would I say
the people I'm working with aregenuine friends or I've created
a new friend?
Susan Boles (08:29):
Tara is using her KPI around friendship to help
her create deeper connectionsand bring more joy to her
business. It's not necessarilytied to other areas of her
business, which works reallywell for her, and that might be
your vibe too. But if you'remore like me, you might need a
bit more structure or strategybehind what you're measuring. So
let's
Tara Robertson (08:49):
play out a little
Susan Boles (08:49):
thought experiment here. What a defacto measure
for? Well, it could be a way tohelp develop new clients or
referral partners. New friendsmade could be a way to access
more resources around support.Maybe it's about finding a
community that can be yourbusiness village.
(09:12):
New friends could also be a wayto build more emotional or
energetic margins for yourself.And while Tara is counting the
number of friends as her measureof success, there are lots of
other ways you might considercreating KPIs around the idea of
friendship. In the episode withKaren Sargent, we talked about
building a client report card.You could add a rating to that
(09:32):
card about how established yourfriendship is with that client.
You could also track how long ittakes you to build a friendship
with the goal of figuring outhow to establish friendships
faster or maybe you wanna set aKPI around actions that would
help you build friendships.
So you set set a metric aroundhow many times you reach out to
people you have existingrelationships with to see if
(09:55):
they wanna hang out. That wouldbe a great way to make progress
on deepening the relationshipsyou already have. Or if you're
more concerned about making newfriends, maybe you set a KPI
around reaching out to newconnections on LinkedIn. There
are tons of different ways youcan go about creating some
calmer KPIs in your business.And even if you have the same
(10:15):
goal as someone else, in thiscase we're talking about new
friends made, the specific KPIyou set around that can look
really different.
We're gonna take a quick breakto hear from our sponsors but
when we come back, Tara and Italk about the nuances of how to
actually develop friendshipsespecially with clients. So talk
(10:36):
to me a little bit about how youare thinking about this
integrating with the rest ofyour business. So are there
other systems or data or areasof your business that you're
focusing on that this ties intoor you're thinking about tying
it into?
Tara Robertson (10:55):
Natalia Staniel, who was on a previous episode of
yours, I was her client a coupleof times, actually, but we also
became friends. Like, she had abig win in her business, and I
showed up at her house with caketo celebrate her. And that's,
like, the moment where we kindof stepped into also being
(11:15):
friends. We've been thinking upin since December, and we're
actually launching soon abusiness network called The Long
Table that's about bothdeepening relationships with
folks and referrals, bothopportunities and revenue
opportunities. So we've steppedback and looked at our our
relationship and, like, what isso good about this?
(11:36):
Like, we genuinely like eachother. We share values. And
through that deep connectionthat we forged over time, we've
referred work to each other, andwe came up with this idea for a
workshop that was a fundraiserfor something that we both care
about. And those things thatbenefited both of our businesses
(11:58):
came out of the solidrelationship and friendship. And
there's a bunch of kind oftraditional business networking
groups where it's moretransactional, and we're like,
how can it also be relational?
Susan Boles (12:09):
Clearly, the idea of friendship, the idea of
relationships is somethingyou've been thinking really
deeply about. How are youthinking about incorporating
that value into either the wayyou're structuring the long
table or structuring your ownservices? Talk to me about how
the value for friendship isending up imbued in your work.
Tara Robertson (12:35):
Well, for the long table, everything needs to
be a relationship and referralor revenue. And I had this great
idea. What if we had these,like, different kind of
challenges and things to getpeople out of their comfort zone
to try new things, sort of likebusiness hypothesis testing. And
Natalia was like, that soundslike a great idea. Which one
(12:58):
does it map to?
And I was like, neither. Sowe're like, okay. Now that I
take those out the windowbecause it it doesn't align with
this project. So that's kind ofwhere we used it as a filter
for, is this something thatwe're designing in or designing
out?
Susan Boles (13:15):
One of the challenges that I find when I am
personally designing services isthat it is really difficult to
keep a focus, particularly ifyou're someone who iterates and
comes up with all kinds of coolideas. Being able to understand,
is this part of the core valueor is this something that is
(13:35):
tangential and maybe fun? How doI map this back so that the
value for really relationshipbuilding, which is what we're
talking about, throughfriendship, I think it's really
difficult to filter so that onlythe things that impact that
value stay in. And I thinkthat's a really difficult skill
(13:58):
to build. It's much easier to dowhen somebody else is like, I
like that idea.
Answer my question.
Tara Robertson (14:05):
And that's where having two brains there was
helpful. I get carried away whenI'm ideating like, this is a
great idea. It's like, it is agreat idea, but not for this
thing.
Susan Boles (14:15):
When you're thinking about developing
relationships, either withclients or with other new
friends, do you think about inperson relationships and online
only relationships differently?
Tara Robertson (14:26):
There's a few people that we have standing,
like, social Zoom calls, eithermonthly or quarterly. I really
value those relationships. Andit's been I've been playing
around in the last four yearssince I've been in business.
Like, what's the right amount ofsocial time? I spend a lot of
time on a screen like a lot ofus do, and could be a Zoom call
(14:49):
or it could be us both puttingon our headphones and going for
a walk in our neighborhood wherewe're connecting, but we're also
not in front of a screen.
I can over rotate and want toconnect more than I have time
sometimes. So it's also beingrealistic with what my business
needs from me and how muchsocial time I have.
Susan Boles (15:09):
So I am an introvert. I am not extroverted
at all. And definitely somethingI need to take into
consideration is I will havespurts where I'm like, I wanna
connect, and I'll book callswith everybody. And then when it
comes time to actually do that,I don't have the energy because
I've over committed. So I thinkthat being able to intentionally
(15:31):
pay attention to where yourenergy is so that you can commit
enough time to develop afriendship because friendships,
they're hard to develop.
Especially if you're trying todo lots at different points in
time. It can be very timeintensive.
Tara Robertson (15:49):
I, again, I like doing stuff with people. So I
started the coach's barbecue,which is a global free coaching
on conference. We're on thefourth or the fifth one now.
There's four of us on theorganizing team. We've got a
pretty good system dialed innow, so we meet probably four
times every half year to put onan event.
(16:10):
And our check ins for the hourmeeting, we spend about half an
hour just talking about life,and then we move into the stuff
we need to do. So it's actuallyquite a good balance for me to
connect and get to know thesefolks deeper and do a thing
together.
Susan Boles (16:27):
That makes sense. Is there a way that you
translate that to clientrelationships? So I'm thinking
about if you wanted to develop aclient relationship into an
eventual friendship, are therepieces of the client engagement
that you would talk aboutpersonal stuff? How do you start
(16:49):
to share vulnerably within thecontext of a client
relationship? Because I thinkthat is a challenge for a lot of
folks as, you know, when wethink clients, there's this wall
of professionalism.
We have to be professional. Wecan't cross the personal to
business barrier. I think it'sreally difficult to figure out
(17:10):
what to share, what not toshare, particularly as the
provider, or do you think it'son the client to initiate
whether they're willing to bevulnerable?
Tara Robertson (17:23):
So I'm gonna give two answers because I kinda
have two different streams ofwork. On the consulting side, I
wanna spend a bit more time onthe being with my my clients,
like, around their lives, howthey're doing, the bigger
context of what the work is thatwe're doing together before
diving into the agenda. In myearlier days consulting, I felt
(17:45):
like to be professional, Ireally needed to deliver a lot
and fast and whatever for myclient. And the client
engagements that have been themost impactful are where there
has been a connection. Sospending time a little bit of
time each time we meet.
Making sure we're connected ashuman beings, I think, is
important. On the coaching side,it's really about my client. So
(18:09):
sometimes I'll share a littlebit about my life if it's
relevant and then bring it backto the client about what what
new things are coming up forthem. It would be a negotiation
after, like, okay. Like, thatwas great.
I actually wanna know yououtside of this, and I want you
to know me. Are you interestedin that, and what could that
look like? Like, when you'reworking with your clients, how
(18:30):
much of yourself can you bring,or how much connection or
authenticity do you bring?
Susan Boles (18:36):
I think it has changed over time. I think when
I first started out consulting,I was very focused on being
professional and being credible.And part of that is, you know,
my positioning, I guess. Youknow, a lot of the time, people
are encountering me as a CFO oras a COO. And for a very long
(19:01):
time, I really thought that Ineeded to embody what they were
going to picture as their CFO.
It felt very claustrophobic forme to always be, quote, unquote,
professional. When I started to,from a content perspective, let
(19:22):
myself be more human and lesscorporate, you know, when I
started telling people that,like, if you want somebody to
show up in a blue suit and use awhole bunch of jargon, I'm just
not the right fit for you. Ifyou want somebody who's probably
gonna show up in a gray hoodieand use, you know, normal people
(19:45):
words and be empathetic aboutyour situation, then we're
probably a good fit. So I thinkonce I started leaning into that
more in my content and mymarketing, that made me much
more comfortable bringing who Iam as a person to my engagements
(20:05):
because I had kind of set up theexpectation that that's what
people were gonna get. And Istarted using that, honestly, as
a filter for who was gonna be agood fit as a client.
So if you're very concernedwith, like, quote, unquote
professionalism, if you reallywant, like, the buttoned up
finance geek kind of thing,you're very turned off by most
(20:29):
of my content. You're not gonnabe attracted to me. And I think
that allowed me then to be morecomfortable showing up, I
wouldn't say as my whole self,but I do bring a lot of my
personal experience, my personalperspectives into my work with
clients. There was a a line Ihad on my website probably five
(20:50):
or six years ago. It was a verysmall line on I think it was on
my about my about page, and itwas just something like zero
rules and QuickBooks drools.
I I'm not a fan of Intuitproducts. In general, QuickBooks
particularly annoys me. But Ijust had this little line on my
about page, and I had a fewtimes where I'd be on a call
(21:15):
with someone and they wouldmention it. It was act so the
people that worked well with menever said anything.
Tara Robertson (21:21):
Got it.
Susan Boles (21:22):
The people who I'd be talking to them on, like, a
sales call and they'd be like,hey. So this line is on your
website. You might wanna thinkabout taking that down. It's
pretty unprofessional. And I'dbe like, noted.
Also, I don't think we shouldwork together. Like, you clearly
either don't have a sense ofhumor or you're just like, we
(21:44):
are not going to vibe together.And it ended up being like, I
thought it was a throwaway line,and it ended up essentially
being a vibe check for who wasgonna be a good fit. And so I
think the more I've leaned intothat, the more comfortable I am
in client engagements just beingme and showing up in I will
(22:04):
almost always be wearing a blackT shirt, gray hoodie, and jeans.
Like
Tara Robertson (22:08):
So what do you mean?
Susan Boles (22:09):
Have a problem with your CFO showing up like that,
then we're not a good fit
Tara Robertson (22:14):
necessarily. You're clear about who you are
and more unapologetic aboutbeing like, listen. I am an
expert, and I wear a grayhoodie.
Susan Boles (22:25):
It was really hard though because I think, you
know, a lot of us come out ofthe corporate world, and it's so
drilled into us that it's allabout business and we're
supposed to be professional andwe are not human beings. We're a
cog in the machine. It's reallyhard to unlearn that even from
(22:45):
something like writing. Youknow? How many of us come out
and write an email sounding likewe're in a corporate environment
instead of sounding like we're ahuman being talking one human to
another human?
And I think being able to getpast that, like, I need to be
(23:07):
buttoned up and just showing upas you are, whether that is
somebody who makes jokes aboutaccounting systems or whether
you're just someone who, youknow, happens to do yoga and you
want to mention that. I thinkthe more we can show up as
humans, the easier it is tobuild a real genuine
(23:30):
relationship with with thepeople that we're working with.
Tara Robertson (23:34):
And for me, I would feel much more comfortable
being honest about what myactual business challenges are
and the tough questions andperhaps the gaps that I've got
with someone in a gray hoodieversus someone who writes in a
corporate way and has the bluesuit and was all buttoned up.
Like
Susan Boles (23:51):
You know what's funny is I've seen it in client
reactions. Like, early on, Iwould get on calls and potential
clients would be like, you'regonna hate me because x y z or,
really not feeling comfortableasking questions because they
felt like it was a stupidquestion. The more human I was,
(24:12):
the more comfortable people areshowing up and saying, I don't
know this. I don't understandthis. Can you explain it to me?
Tara Robertson (24:19):
I definitely experienced that on the
consulting side of my business,especially right now, diversity,
equity, and inclusion stuff.There's an extra layer of not
only do I not know somethinghere, but, like, I should know.
And I feel like I'm judgingmyself, and I'm worrying that
other people are judging me.That's why you hired an expert.
I I know a lot of stuff, but Idon't know your organization.
(24:42):
You know your organization. Sotogether, we're a great team to
figure out what's gonna work foryour organization right now.
Susan Boles (24:54):
How are you thinking about the impact of
having more friends with who youare interacting in your
business? How do you feel it'sgonna make your business or your
work calmer or more joyful?
Tara Robertson (25:08):
It's gonna make my work and by extension than my
life more interesting and morejoyful. I'm I'm not sure if
there's gonna be a financialimpact on my business, but this
is my business and my life. AndI have many, many years left to
work, and I I want this to beinteresting. I want to make an
impact, and I want it to besustainable. And doing stuff
(25:31):
with friends, I think that's oneway I can do this.
Susan Boles (25:36):
I agree. As somebody who spends a lot of
time thinking about both metricsand measuring businesses in an
unconventional way, I'm reallyinterested to see because my gut
says it probably will have apositive impact on both revenue
and quality of clientengagements. And the more we
think about building deeperrelationships, I really don't
(25:58):
think there's a downside tothat. I I just don't.
Tara Robertson (26:02):
Especially now, there's been a lot of
disconnection. What's going onpolitically right now, there's
tremendous polarization. So ifwe can work in a way that
connects us to like minded andnot like minded people and
connect human to human, like,that's how we're gonna move
forward both as individuals, asbusiness owners, as corporation
(26:27):
owners, and as a society. Like,it's about one to one
relationships. That's whereeverything starts.
Susan Boles (26:37):
A lot of us are craving connection and community
right now, and creating a KPIaround something that's so
important is a great way ofmaking sure you are making
progress towards it. Somethinglike finding community might
feel intangible, but you cancreate very real measurements
that help you get there. Whetherthat's a KPI around the actions
(26:59):
you wanna take or, like Tara,the actual number of friends
you're making. Even something assimple as a daily rating around
how connected you feel might bea great place to start. Those
are all tangible measures thathelp you tell whether or not
you're actually making progress,and they help keep you on track.
(27:20):
That's what great KPIs do. Bigthanks to everyone who supports
Beyond Margins. If you're alistener, a sponsor, or a
partner of any kind, Iabsolutely couldn't do this show
without you. You can supportthis show by leaving a rating
and a review. It really doeshelp new listeners hit play with
more confidence.
(27:40):
Thanks for listening, and untilnext time, stay calm.
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