February 11, 2025 • 38 mins
Managing client relationships is one of the biggest challenges of running a service-based business. Expectations, boundaries, and communication all play a role in whether an engagement runs smoothly or goes off the rails. So, how do you actually know if you're doing a good job?
Karen Sergeant has a solution: a Client Report Card. This system helps her measure and manage client relationships proactively, identifying potential issues before they become problems. As a fractional COO, Karen has spent years refining this process to keep her work feeling calm—even when working inside chaotic businesses. In this episode, we break down her weekly client evaluation system—what metrics she tracks, how she uses the data, and how you can implement a similar approach in your own business.
If you’ve ever struggled with scope creep, unclear expectations, or misaligned client relationships, this conversation is packed with insights that will help you create a calmer, more intentional business.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- Why Karen created her Client Report Card—and how it helps her business
- The 10 criteria she evaluates weekly to measure client relationships
- How tracking qualitative vibe-based data helps prevent burnout
- How you can build your own Client Report Card to keep your business running smoothly
Learn more about Karen Sergeant:
Learn more about Susan Boles:
We value your thoughts and feedback. Feel free to share them with Susan here. Your input is not just valuable, it's crucial in shaping future episodes.
- (00:00) -
- (00:36) - Managing Client Relationships
- (02:06) - The Importance of Boundaries and Scope
- (08:31) - Karen's Report Card Criteria
- (14:35) - Applying the Report Card in Business
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Sergeant (00:00):
I want to catch problems early before there's
emotion wrapped around it beforewe start hating each other
before anyone cries. I want tohear about the problem so that I
can solve it one way or theother. It is a Calm KPI. It
actually engineers Calm into abusiness if we all speak up
(00:20):
about tiny problems and giveeach other permission to do
that.
Susan Boles (00:29):
Hi, friends. Susan here, and this is Beyond
Margins, the show where wedeconstruct how to engineer a
calmer business. Managing therelationship with your clients
is probably one of the mostchallenging aspects of being a
service provider. A huge part ofthe perceived value of whatever
service you're offering is yourability to manage expectations,
(00:51):
to communicate effectively, andto make sure the boundaries of
your service are clear from thebeginning. But how do you
actually know if you're doing agood job?
My guest today, Karen Sargent,created a client report for her
business that helps herunderstand what's going well or
maybe not so well with herongoing clients. She's a pocket
(01:13):
COO who helps small businessowners turn their goals into
actions. And as someone whospends a lot of time in the
operations side of businesses,it's especially challenging to
maintain boundaries and to keepthe client scope in check. It's
really easy to get sucked intothe chaos in a business. And
Karen uses her client reportcard process to help her
(01:36):
identify when the scope iscreeping or when problems might
need to be resolved proactively.
She uses this process to helpher business stay calm even if
she's working inside anotherbusiness that might not be the
same. This is Karen's Calm KPI.Karen and I geek out about the
specifics of her report card, sowhat she's actually evaluating,
(01:58):
how she evolved this process inher own work, and how you can
apply this technique in your ownbusiness to make it feel calmer.
So you are here to talk aboutyour client report card. How did
you end up coming up with theidea of a client report card?
Like, what was happening in yourbusiness?
Karen Sergeant (02:18):
Yeah. Yes. So in self defense, I created this in
self defense. So as a fractionalas a fractional anything, I
think if you work with clients,a lot of the times, all of your
focus is on the client issue.Right?
What is going on? How do youproblem solve? How do you do the
work? And very little of it isabout the container. How are we
(02:41):
working together?
Do we like each other? What'sgoing well? What's not going
well. And I am forever focusedon the work work and I so rarely
focus on the container untilthere is a problem and usually a
really big problem, like thefrog getting boiled in the soup
problem. And then it's a littletoo late and then I'm really
(03:04):
resentful.
And it's a harder problem tosolve the more you wait. I was
working with an accountabilitycoach at the time and I was
like, you know what I need? Ineed to like review this every
week and I need to understandlike, how is it working? How is
it maybe not working? And, andso I journaled about things that
could go wrong and things thatwhen they're right, they're
(03:25):
really right.
And it feels right. And then Icame up with my original
criteria. And then over theyears, I've been using this for
six of them, eight years andthey've just changed it, sort of
migrated into what works for meand what things do I need to
keep an eye on so that I'mforever happy and that, you
know, that if we if we decidenot to work together, it's about
(03:48):
some other reason, not because Ihaven't spoken up because, you
know, things are going south andI didn't realize it.
Susan Boles (03:54):
I think you're right, especially in fractional
roles. It's so easy for thatengagement to go just off the
rails because by nature of itbeing fractional, it's really
difficult to figure out whatguardrails to put in. It's very
difficult to create a scope ofwork for a fractional role when
(04:17):
normally in a consultantengagement, you have a thing
that you're delivering or aproduct or something. But the
nature of the fractional roleand why they're also so powerful
is that they kind of incorporateeverything that that c suite
whoever would incorporate. So itmakes it very difficult to
(04:40):
create guardrails, and I lovethe boiling a frog thing because
it never happens all at once.
It's always like, oh, here, I'lldo one thing. That's not quite
in scope, but, like, it's notit's not out of scope. So I'll
just do it this one time. Andthen that one time, you know,
six months down the road withthis client, you're like, I
(05:00):
don't know what happened. Idon't like this.
And I'm not sure that they doeither.
Karen Sergeant (05:05):
Oh my gosh. Exactly. And then other item
that I feel like kinda creeps upon you is that so many of us
fractionals are problem solvers.Right? We walk into a mess and
we fix it.
It's not exclusive to the COOsuite. I mean, I'm sure other
fractionals are like, oh, I dothe same thing. I walk into a
mess and I fix it. Well, ourclients sometimes cooperate with
(05:28):
the fixes and sometimes it takesa minute for them to learn new
habits. And so they can besetting fires all along.
And it is in scope for me tofight the fire. Right. But too
much of that. And that's really,that's the snaker for me is when
they is when you come in withyour expertise. So it's not just
(05:49):
the doing, it's the expertisethat we're bringing.
And when that doesn't get fully,fully incorporated in our
client's mindset, it can be adrag. And I want to watch that
and actually call that out andtalk about it with my client
before I'm just like, you knowwhat? I don't like working with
you.
Susan Boles (06:07):
I think you're right. I think one of the
biggest challenges I know andwork with my clients and other
fractionals that I've talked tois when you come in in a
fractional role, it's sort of aweird place to sit as an
organization because in order togive your best advice, to do the
best problem solving, you haveto have a really strong
(06:28):
understanding of what'shappening throughout the
company, especially inoperations or finance. I mean,
honestly, even in, you know, aCMO role, you really need to
understand what's happening inall areas of the business, which
means from a, like, strategicplanning perspective or even
just a day to day perspective,you really need to be
integrated. But the nature ofbeing a consultant sometimes
(06:51):
means it's really difficult tocreate that relationship and,
like, get embedded when you'rein a fractional capacity. Is
that something that you you findas well?
Karen Sergeant (07:03):
Yes. I mean, we have the delicate balance,
especially us fractionals thatwork with really, really small
businesses. We are partners asmuch as we are part time
employees or part timecontractors. You know, we are
expected not just to fall inline and do the work, but to
come in with new ways of doingthe work. And that is always a
(07:24):
dance.
That's what they actually payfor. That's what they're eager
to get at the beginning. Andsometimes that doesn't last
because it's a drag to changeyour habits. It really,
sometimes over time, I feel likeI'd fall in line and fight the
fires that I I'm gonna go aroundand keep setting. And if we
create a culture where we'retalking about that from the get
go, and we're having that, thatagenda item is always, so how's
(07:49):
it going?
You know, that sort of like, howare we working together? If
we're always addressing thatfrom the absolute get go, and I
have real agenda items for that.
Susan Boles (07:59):
Not just like, yeah,
Karen Sergeant (08:00):
it's really great, Susan. It's it's fun
working with you. I was like,well, here are some hiccups. Do
you have any feedback for me?You know, like, it actually
creates real agenda items forthat part of the meeting, for
that part of the one on one.
And if you're gonna give, youknow, honest feedback back and
forth, start at the beginningbefore there's any problems, and
(08:21):
then you're just gonna have ahealthier relationship
altogether.
Susan Boles (08:24):
Yeah. I love that. So let's, let's get into the
meat and potatoes because nowyou have prompted so many more
questions that I have. So kindof describe the report card to
me. What kind of criteria areyou measuring?
Like, what's actually in thisreport card?
Karen Sergeant (08:39):
Yep. So for me, I end up having 10 criteria, and
I measure them weekly on a fivepoint scale. So the five point
scale is just a typical one.Five is high, one is low, and I
have actual sentences for eachof the fives. Like the three,
you don't really want to hangout at a three.
A three is a few things aregoing right. And a few things
(09:01):
are going wrong and it's notactually where you want to be.
So it really truly is amidpoint. You really want, I
guess the average to be in thefours. And of course the fives
are, are awesome.
And I call a two and a one, acode red. They're just like
they, like they have to beaddressed. And I made, this is
when I was back working with myaccountability coach. I, I had
(09:21):
sort of sworn a solemn duty toput on the agenda, anything that
had a two or a one, or thatslipped below trend. Report card
is half the battle talking withyour client about what you're
seeing is really where the magichappens.
But for me, what the habit of aweekly report card solves for me
(09:42):
is, I don't know when you get tothe end of the week and you're
exhausted, you're like, oh, thisis never, this is this client.
It's never been going right. Ithasn't gone right in years. You
know, that kind of, and you justget it's whatever just happened
last colors all of yourthinking. Mhmm.
And what I was trying to do isget away from that. There are
things going well. And there'sone thing that dipped in. It's
been three weeks since itdipped. You know, so it allows
(10:04):
you I mean, I guess maybe I'm alittle bit of a data person, but
it allows me to get really goodperspective on how bad is it?
How long has it been bad? Youknow, so that there's contours
to the problem instead of justlike drinking on a Friday night
and muttering into your beer,you know?
Susan Boles (10:20):
No. I love the idea of creating I think especially
when it's a routine that happensweekly or monthly or core you
know, where you're touching baseon a regular basis, I think it
gives you so much qualitativedata. Even if in this case, you
have quantified the data, whatyou're actually doing is
quantifying qualitative dataabout the relationship, how you
(10:42):
feel about it, all of thosedifferent things. And that is
such a valuable reflection as abusiness owner to figure out
where you need to change things,what does need to be modified or
tweaked or improved. And atleast for me, my weekly
reflection process is the thingthat keeps me on track.
(11:04):
I I'm not so much with theexternal accountability. I I'm
very demand avoidance, so Idon't like anybody else telling
me what to do. I don't evenreally like myself telling me
what to do. But having regulartouch points allows you to
create a pattern recognitionwhere almost when you start
doing it frequently enough, youcan start seeing problems before
(11:25):
they actually start happening.
Karen Sergeant (11:26):
A %. And also for us fractionals, this can
happen for anybody. You can bean employee, you can be a
business owner, you can do thisno matter what your role, but
for us fractionals, we give up alot to stay fractional. And one
of the things that we hope thatwe get in return is the
flexibility and the freedom andthe ability to, to love our work
(11:49):
and to love our clients. And soit's almost putting our money
where our mouth is or puttingaccountability where our mouth
is, is that let's make sure thatwe stay with clients.
I know that you're fond ofsaying that calm is a KPI. And
for me, vibe is a KPI. This isall I love that. It's one of the
most important KPIs in mybusiness. Do I love and do I
(12:11):
love the work with my clients?
Susan Boles (12:13):
You know what's so interesting is, like, you know
how when you have, like, coffeechats with folks and they're
like, oh, so who do you workwith? Who should I send to you?
And I always have the hardesttime because, like you, I'm
like, it's a vibe. Like, it'sreally values based. You know?
Like, if they're a hustle bro,we are not gonna get along. We
don't have the same values. Wedon't have the same perspective
(12:34):
on the world. We don't have thesame perspective on how we treat
our team members or ourcommunity or ourselves. Like,
it's it's entirely vibes based,and it's hard to it's hard to
quantify that.
So I love that this is vibesbased.
Karen Sergeant (12:51):
It is. It is. So my first two out of the 10, my
first two are very vibey. Yetthe CEO values me and my
contribution and my interactionwith the CEO sort of frequency
and style. So these are thingsthat they're really kinda hard
to qual, to quantify.
But, you know, like, you knowwhen it is. And so that came out
(13:15):
of my journaling. Like, whenthat is awesome. I love working
with my clients. So they keeptheir regular meetings.
They don't slack me too often inthe meantime, like, so there's
actual like things I can bringup again in a meeting with them
that says, listen, there's toomany off cycle stuff. Like
things are fixable when they'resmaller. So let's notice the
(13:36):
trend and then identify it rightaway. So the next two are about
the team. What's my interactionwith the team?
And then for me as a COO, thisitem strengths or gaps on the
team. And this is an importantone because this is the,
potential trouble on the horizonmetric for us COOs because we're
(13:57):
gap fillers. So if we're gapfillers, just this once, just so
we can get this thing out thedoor, I wanna know how many gaps
I spot so that
Susan Boles (14:07):
All of a sudden, you're an entire department of
people, just you.
Karen Sergeant (14:10):
Crap. So often you're like, well, Karen does a
good job. Let's just keep herno. So I like to know if we let
somebody go or someone, youknow, after all isn't isn't
working up to their potential,you know, things like that. What
do I see on the team that mightspell a little bit of trouble
for me?
And I want to get thoseofficially closed, not Karen
(14:31):
closed, but like officiallyclosed. So that's a, that's a
great one for me.
Susan Boles (14:35):
We're gonna take a quick break to hear from our
sponsors, but when we come back,Karen will walk us through the
next few segments of her reportcard. And then we'll talk about
how you can apply this in yourown work.
Karen Sergeant (14:46):
These are sort of brass tacks, the next couple
(15:35):
hours, hours and intensity. AndI like measuring that because,
you know, there are certaintimes a year that are busier
than others. And you can kind offorget that there was a lull
time when you're busy and youforget, you know, like you
you're just put in it. And whatI want to know is how long have
I been in it? How long has itbeen this way?
Is this the new reality or isthis just busy time? So hours
(15:57):
and intensity and thencompensation Is the amount and
format okay with the work? Sodon't don't those don't
necessarily change often unlessother things are getting out of
whack. But I do like it'simportant to feel well
appreciated. And it's importantto know that if if other things
aren't going well, that at leastI'm getting, you know, like this
(16:18):
is I'm getting good, wellcompensated for my effort.
So that kind of helps me keep myperspective. So the next two,
ability to stay on scope andability to stay on priorities.
And they're not the same thingbecause for those of us who,
whose scope is to problem solve,I can technically still be on
scope, but I am in react mode,firefighting, run around like an
(16:42):
idiot mode, And that's what thepriorities one measures. So if
we say that these three thingsare important and I'm off doing
five, six, seven, eight, nine,10, 11, 12 for a living, then
we're not staying on ourpriorities. And that's an
occasion for me to speak up and,deal with it at the, client
level.
The last two are probably themost qualitative. And they're so
(17:06):
important to me because I thinkthese two are everything. The
last, second to last is theproblem set is fun. Am I having
fun? Like, is this work fun?
I love that. Period. And thenthe last one, am I happy,
engaged and generous? And I gotthat one from Brene Brown
because she said that the mostgenerous people she knows are
(17:28):
the most boundaried. And I waslike, And then I noticed that
for me, that one of the earlywarning indicators is when I
start to bean count.
Like I'm by nature, I'm not abean counter. But if I start to
go down that route, if I'm like,this is the second time she's
asked me to like that kind ofstuff. I know that there's
(17:50):
trouble because that's notnatural for me. And for some
reason you're starting a troubleon the horizon.
Susan Boles (17:56):
You've overridden the boundaries you have, you
don't know about.
Karen Sergeant (18:00):
Yes. And so that is just a, like, I just close my
eyes and I'm like, do I lovebeing generous on this team?
Like, do I love, like, am Ihappy to, you know, pitch in and
things like that? And that isjust like almost everything else
doesn't matter. That's the onethat really matters.
It's kind of the most looseygoosey, but that's the one that
I care about kind of the most.
Susan Boles (18:20):
I would agree that for me, that would be the most
important one.
Karen Sergeant (18:23):
And so every week I just have one big long,
in fact, it is years and yearslong Evernote note where I just
grab the last week. I put it upat the top. I zero it out and
fill it in. And I do a quickparagraph of just sort of like,
almost like a journal, like thishappened and then that other
happened and then this happened.So I have a little context and
then I fill it out.
(18:44):
I highlight anything that's atwo or a one, or I highlight
anything that's suddenly wentdown or up off trend. And then I
go fill out, like if there's anagenda, if we have a shared
agenda with a client and there'sanything I feel like we need to
talk about, I flip over and addit to the agenda and that's how
it works.
Susan Boles (19:10):
So, one, are you using this at all in your sales
process? Like, when you aregetting a vibe from you know,
you're on a sales call, you'retrying to figure out if they're
gonna be a good fit or thosekinds of things, does this show
up there as well?
Karen Sergeant (19:25):
Yes. Although not as diligently as it does
once I'm on the job, but youwould think that I would, that I
would use this. You know, Iprobably have this so well
dialed into my heart of heartsthat I, I probably bring some of
that to bear. And, you know, Ialways ask for strengths and
gaps on TV. Yeah.
You want to know like what, whatkind of, what kind of deal
(19:45):
you're walking into. The way Iwork generally is we either have
a project that we're gonna, likea finite project we're working
on together before we move on,or we have a ninety day thing.
So I usually get in there anduse it and use it very
diligently during our honeymoonprocess just to see if we wanna
move on.
Susan Boles (20:04):
Yeah. I'm I'm very much the same. I do intensives
to get a the the point is tomake sure that, like, we're a
good fit to work together, andwe like each other, and there's
no, like, red flags on eitherpart that this isn't gonna be a
good fit going long term. Ithink especially in, like,
operations, finance, stuff that,like, is really in the heart of
(20:25):
the business. I think it's soimportant to make sure that the
trust is there because you mightbe a good vibe fit, but, you
know, maybe they just don'trespect your expertise and you
know that they are never gonnaget the value out of working
with you because they don'twanna listen to anybody.
Karen Sergeant (20:40):
Right. Right. Right. Exactly so. And then can
they handle the feedback?
That's the other thing is like,like the second part is I'm
going to be showing up givingyou this kind of feedback. I
think it's valuable. And ifthey're like, only talk to me if
there's problems or just gosolve your own problems or
whatever that is. And then, andthen we know that that's less of
a vibe than we were hoping.
Susan Boles (20:59):
Yep. So are you using this explicitly with
clients or are you using it togenerate the topics that you
need to bring up with clients?
Karen Sergeant (21:11):
It's the latter. I think it would be hilarious.
Now, Susan, you've slipped froma three to a two, and I last
week I
Susan Boles (21:18):
just like, I could see a world where, like, some
sort of touch base like,quantitative touch base, maybe
not as explicitly as you areusing it on the personal side,
but some sort of, like, explicithow do we both think things are
going perspective could bereally useful. So I was curious
(21:40):
if it had evolved into that atall or if you're just using it
to kind of allow yourself tomanage the client relationship
better.
Karen Sergeant (21:46):
You know, I use it just to manage the client
relationship better. And I do infact, I ask this on interviews.
When I interview, for myclients, I ask what is what is
your criteria for evaluating apotential client or a potential
gig. I'm always interested inthe yardstick that people show
up with for what success lookslike for them. So I am also
(22:08):
asking that of the client.
I know what her top three are,maybe not her top 10, but I know
what her top three are. And Ican sort of self evaluate, you
know, my own self on what shevalues. And if that's not in
alignment, if she values thingslike hop to it or chop chop, you
know, that kind of like don'tquestion, just do, or, you know,
(22:29):
things like that, then I knowthat we're instantly not
aligned. But, generally, I justlet this generate agenda items
that I just, I mean, maybe theyknow, maybe they don't know that
I'm evaluating it on the regularon the outside.
Susan Boles (22:43):
So how does this kind of stand alone report card
integrate with the rest of yourbusiness? So are there other
systems that you have that kindof play into this data that you
need to collect regularly tomake this work or that this goes
into? How does this integrate inthe overall rest of your
processes?
Karen Sergeant (23:03):
That's fascinating. You know, I have
only started tracking maybe inthe last year or so, befores and
afters so that I could have atransformation story in my own
marketing and case studies andthings like that. Before that I
did a lousy job. I would just,honestly, I was so focused on
the client experience that Iwasn't building my own
(23:24):
repertoire of case studies andwhat do I do when I walk into a
business. Just all of myprocesses and things like that.
So there's an intake form inyou. It's again, mostly
qualitative. And how do you feelabout your team? Are the people
in the right seats? You know,those types of operational
questions.
So I can track like the impactof my work with a client. And I
(23:46):
wonder if this is true, I wouldlove if we could just like zip
in a client to see if they wouldagree with me. So often, so
they're very grateful for thechanges in their business. They
really are. I mean, when thebusiness runs better, they're
able to do what it is that they,you know, dreamed of the
business doing.
But I would venture to say thatjust as important and even more
(24:07):
important is the feeling thatthey're understood, the feeling
that they're well mentored, thefeeling that they get when they
work with me is almost moreimportant than or just as
important as, you know, thebusiness is better. Right. Right
team now, you know, all of thatstuff. It is a lonely business
(24:28):
being a founder CEO, especially
Susan Boles (24:31):
of
Karen Sergeant (24:31):
a small business. And your spouse might
not get it. Your girlfriends aretired of you. They're talking
about your team. Where is thatperson where you get to unload?
And, you know, without overexplaining like she gets it.
And, and also just like, youknow, the kind of complaints
that you would never do to, liketo someone who, you know, who
(24:53):
works on your team. I am a team,but it's a different
relationship. So I think myclients have something similar,
whether they have it explicitlyor not, they must know because
these are the types of thingsthat I think they value as well.
Susan Boles (25:12):
So what is the impact of having this system for
you? So how does this make yourbusiness or your work feel
calmer or more sustainable foryou?
Karen Sergeant (25:25):
So for me, it allows me to raise issues and
address issues when they'retiny, when they're small.
Doesn't mean there's no issues.It means that we catch them
early when they're solvable.Like when I'm a fractional team
members like report into me andI have one on ones in a, in a
managerial role with them. I, Idon't know.
(25:49):
I don't explicitly ask them tokeep a report card, but I have
that agenda item and I expectthem to show up with, how are
you feeling this week? How arethings? What are things going
on? Mostly because I wanna catchproblems early before there's
emotion wrapped around it beforewe start hating each other
before anyone cries. I want tohear about the problem so that I
(26:10):
can solve it one way or theother, before it, you know,
rears its big ugly head.
So it is a calm KPI. It actuallyengineers calm into a business.
If we all speak up about tinyproblems and, and give each
other permission to do thatbecause nobody really wants to
be like, here's a tiny thing.Give me all the tiny problems. I
(26:34):
want to solve problems whenthey're tiny, but I can see how
someone feels like it's not thatbig a deal.
I won't bother Karen with it.
Susan Boles (26:43):
Yeah. Especially when it is small and you're
like, oh, it's just, it's just aone off. It's not gonna happen.
And then by the time it's, yourealize it is a new habit that's
been created or a new pattern.It's almost too late to undo it.
Now it's a big thing because nowyou have to break the habit and
retrain either communicationstyle. You have to retrain
(27:03):
different solutions or you haveto build a new system to, like,
counteract the habit.
Karen Sergeant (27:08):
And it's awkward conversation sometimes too. It's
like that thing that you do,Susan, I wish you had you
started six months ago, and Iwish you don't get anything.
You're like, wow. Where were youfive months ago when I thought
this was a good idea? To me, itallows me again to see, is this
is this a one off or is this anew trend?
How problematic does it looklike it is? You know, it gives
(27:31):
me all the perspective, not justthe data, but the perspective
and the context of where is thisin our overall relationship, how
much of a deal is this, and howwould I bring it up with my
client in order to get thisfixed.
Susan Boles (27:45):
Yeah. And I think the fact that you're, you know,
tracking every week and touchingbase on it gives you so much
trend data. It gives you so muchinformation to decide whether or
not something's a problem, whereif you were doing this once a
month or once a quarter or evenonce a year, you're not gonna
have that information, and it'sso easy to forget things week to
(28:06):
week. I know for me, sometimes Iget to Friday, and I'm like, I
have no idea what happened thisweek. I'm here to do my weekly
review self.
What the heck happened? I haveno idea.
Karen Sergeant (28:16):
Exactly. But you know what I do do quarterly and
yearly is look at the trend ofso this isn't client specific,
but it's almost like my businessspecific. Like, what do I tend
to be lousy at? What do I, whatare perpetual problems that I
seem to walk into? I attractclients who do this, or I don't
(28:37):
step up and address it.
Or like, what, what is a trendfor me that I can, that is a
thorn in my side. And then likewhat systems or accountability,
or what do I need in order toengineer that the hell out of my
business so that I won't be sothat I don't have like, let's go
ahead and do problems instead ofthese. So it really is a report
(28:57):
card on stuff that I'm not goodat addressing. And so I can get
better at that. I have retooledlike my service products to
engineer more scope and toengineer more communication.
Back in the day, I would haveCEOs that would ghost me that
simply would not show up formeetings.
Susan Boles (29:14):
For something that they're paying
Karen Sergeant (29:15):
for you.
Susan Boles (29:15):
I know.
Karen Sergeant (29:15):
I know. I know.
Susan Boles (29:16):
Like, I'm paying for you, but I can't be
bothered. And, CLL servicesdon't come cheap. Like Right.
Karen Sergeant (29:25):
And then, Law Fight would go continuing the
work, and then there would berework because what they really
needed to do was show up andtell me about a course change or
whatever. Once I figured thatout, that the CEO values me and
my contribution, regularmeetings that they keep, like
those are the top two. They needto show up fully themselves.
I'll engineer you out. And Iengineer the service products I
(29:47):
provide so that you almostcan't, you wouldn't be attracted
to what I sell if you weren'tinterested in, in showing up
and, and doing the work.
Susan Boles (29:56):
Tell me more about that. Cause you know, I tend to
geek out on service design. Sotell me more about how you're
actually thinking aboutstructuring your services to
circle back and enforce kind ofthe behaviors that you find you
work best with.
Karen Sergeant (30:14):
Yes. A lot of it circles around that call, that
call that we meet. So I makesure that it is a one on one.
Very rarely can a third personshow up. And that's because we
need as leaders, we need to, weneed to dish about the rest of
the team and we need to dishabout what's not going right.
(30:34):
And if there's that third personor if it's recorded in that
third person can see it, there'sa different vibe and the honesty
and those kinds of, agenda itemswill not surface. And yet they
will still surface and bite mein the butt later. And I would
again, rather have an earlierthan later. So you must show up
for calls and you must show upalone for calls. And pretty much
(30:56):
you need to show up ready tospeak about, like I would, like
I have a KPI dashboard.
I don't review the dashboard onthe call. You know, like you
have to have reviewed it andunder have a question or things
like that. And so I make surethose expectations are really
upfront so that they so thatwe're actually getting to the
work right away. I'm not anexecutive assistant, you know,
(31:17):
giving them a report that theycan read while I drum my
fingers. You know, like we'rereally working together.
Many of my clients, this is thefirst relationship, business
relationship that they had. Alot of my clients don't have
corporate experience.
Susan Boles (31:31):
Mhmm.
Karen Sergeant (31:32):
And so having a wingman that you have to show up
per just as prepared for, like Ishow up prepared, we start
cooking with gas. If you show upprepared and I show up prepared,
there's nothing we can't do. Butif we're gonna waste some time
and then you're gonna be like,wow, that meeting with Karen's a
drag, you know, like that kindof it's not, we waste twenty
five of that sixty minute call.Then they'll start devaluing it.
(31:54):
And then I can understand whythey wanna be like, not this
week.
So you engineer, you have anagenda, you have, expectations,
and I'm very upfront about that.
Susan Boles (32:08):
Anything around the report card or managing the
client relationship, I think, isespecially important that we
haven't touched on that youthink we we should.
Karen Sergeant (32:18):
First of all, I would urge anyone listening to
do this. Absolutely. I wouldonly use my list as a jumping
off point because my categoriesare not your categories. You
might phrase them differently.You also might throw a couple of
them out and put it into acouple new ones again, but start
by journaling or just mentallyjournaling.
Like what's great about yourgreatest client? What are the
(32:40):
things that are on track with agreat client? And then what are
the things that bite you? Verytypically as a trend. That's
your first category of, ofitems.
Run with those and starttracking them weekly. Get your
own five point scale, put yourown words to it and start
tracking it weekly. It really isthe habit of tracking them.
There's no glory in creating areport card and not using it,
(33:02):
but track them and then start tosee what the fallout is from
that. Sometimes you'd almosthave to adjust your perspective,
which is, well, she does thatone thing, but the other nine
things are great.
So maybe I just need to problemsolve that one thing or just be
grateful. Everything typicallyisn't going bad. And it's
usually one or two things goingbad. And they've only been going
(33:23):
bad for the last three weeks.You know, like that kind of
perspective can really help youmanage your own expectations and
your own mental head space whenit comes to clients.
Client wear and tear, I think issort of like the secret, the
dirty secret of fractional work.It's never the work. And we
always feel like, you know, likewe try to find the good ones and
(33:45):
hang on to them, but you neverknow. And we just feel like
we're in the washing machine.This is one of the ways to pull
yourself up out of the washingmachine and just get some good
perspective on it and get a gripon it.
And if you're a fractional, youalmost need to have something
like this in your work so thatyou can manage that part of your
work that can really take it outof you.
Susan Boles (34:06):
Agreed. So what is your favorite way to make your
own work feel calmer besidesthis?
Karen Sergeant (34:13):
Oh my goodness. My favorite way is reserving
certain days for calls andreserving certain days for non
meeting work. Sometimes when myclients try to book on Fridays,
I always say, gee, they go, oh,that's right. You don't work on
Fridays. I work on Fridays.
I just don't take calls onFridays. It's a totally
(34:34):
different thing. And havingthose big, long white spaces
where there's just not going tobe interruption is
transformative for my work,whether it's going head down
into a, you know, pivot table orsomething like that for a client
where if the phone rings orsomething like that's twenty
(34:54):
minutes of trying to get backinto that rabbit hole before I
know what's going on, or it'sdoing the marketing for my own
team. Like it's, there is juststuff that I need to have really
long focus for. And once Istarted time blocking for those
things, I really saw a bigdifference in the quality of
work that I could produce, butalso my mood and, how just
(35:15):
bothered I was by the end of theday or how lack thereof.
And so really kind of takingthat out for myself, I think was
the, was the biggest thing.
Susan Boles (35:25):
I do the same, and it was really transformative for
me having, like, full days wherethere's no calls, there's no
interruptions. I can be veryfocused on whatever it is that
I'm building or doing orcreating that day. And, yeah,
sometimes I'm still interactingwith clients because, you know,
I'm working on something for aclient, but that's not getting
(35:47):
interrupted. It's like it's onmy own terms that I'm
interacting with people versussometimes it can kind of feel
like just a wave of chaos at youwhere you just it is very
unpredictable when you are in afractional capacity or, really,
I think if you work with clientson any kind of retainer model,
it's very unpredictable whenthey are gonna decide that they
(36:08):
have a challenge, and all of asudden it becomes your
challenge. And so being able tocreate those big white spaces, I
think, is is so important.
Karen Sergeant (36:19):
Amen, sister.
Susan Boles (36:24):
Managing a client relationship is one of the most
challenging things you ever doas a service provider, and it
takes practice. You have tolearn where your engagements
might go off the rails. You Youhave to get better and better at
being able to identify red flagswhen you're having sales
conversations. And we all messit up, even those of us who have
been at this for over a decade.Karen's client report card is a
(36:47):
really way to identify issues ina more systematic way.
You could even take this ideaand build a report card or a
more standardized evaluationprocess for your prospects so
that you can use it during yoursales conversations. Now if
you've been doing this for awhile, you might not actually
need a formal evaluationprocess. You might have a pretty
(37:08):
finely honed, processinternally, but it's a great way
to collect data and then use itto get feedback on where you're
hitting the mark with clients orwhere you might need to improve.
You can also use it to remindyourself that things are
actually going well when you'rein one of those dips where you
actually hate everything or toto get engagements back on track
(37:29):
before they really go off therails. Designing your own client
or prospect report card can be areally effective way to evaluate
what that relationship is reallylike.
And as it does for Karen, it canactually make your business
calmer. This can be a calm KPIfor you. And if you decide to
implement this in your ownbusiness, let me know. I'd love
(37:52):
to hear about how you apply thisto your own work. Big thanks to
everyone who supports BeyondMargins.
If you're a listener, a sponsor,or a partner of any kind, I
couldn't do this show withoutyou. You can support this show
by leaving a rating and areview. It really does help new
listeners hit play with moreconfidence, and you can support
our sponsors by using the linksin your show notes. All of this
(38:15):
helps me keep this independentpodcast going and growing. So
thank you, and thanks forlistening.
Until next time, stay calm.
I want to catch problems early before there's
emotion wrapped around it beforewe start hating each other
before anyone cries. I want tohear about the problem so that I
can solve it one way or theother. It is a Calm KPI. It
actually engineers Calm into abusiness if we all speak up
(00:20):
about tiny problems and giveeach other permission to do
that.
Susan Boles (00:29):
Hi, friends. Susan here, and this is Beyond
Margins, the show where wedeconstruct how to engineer a
calmer business. Managing therelationship with your clients
is probably one of the mostchallenging aspects of being a
service provider. A huge part ofthe perceived value of whatever
service you're offering is yourability to manage expectations,
(00:51):
to communicate effectively, andto make sure the boundaries of
your service are clear from thebeginning. But how do you
actually know if you're doing agood job?
My guest today, Karen Sargent,created a client report for her
business that helps herunderstand what's going well or
maybe not so well with herongoing clients. She's a pocket
(01:13):
COO who helps small businessowners turn their goals into
actions. And as someone whospends a lot of time in the
operations side of businesses,it's especially challenging to
maintain boundaries and to keepthe client scope in check. It's
really easy to get sucked intothe chaos in a business. And
Karen uses her client reportcard process to help her
(01:36):
identify when the scope iscreeping or when problems might
need to be resolved proactively.
She uses this process to helpher business stay calm even if
she's working inside anotherbusiness that might not be the
same. This is Karen's Calm KPI.Karen and I geek out about the
specifics of her report card, sowhat she's actually evaluating,
(01:58):
how she evolved this process inher own work, and how you can
apply this technique in your ownbusiness to make it feel calmer.
So you are here to talk aboutyour client report card. How did
you end up coming up with theidea of a client report card?
Like, what was happening in yourbusiness?
Karen Sergeant (02:18):
Yeah. Yes. So in self defense, I created this in
self defense. So as a fractionalas a fractional anything, I
think if you work with clients,a lot of the times, all of your
focus is on the client issue.Right?
What is going on? How do youproblem solve? How do you do the
work? And very little of it isabout the container. How are we
(02:41):
working together?
Do we like each other? What'sgoing well? What's not going
well. And I am forever focusedon the work work and I so rarely
focus on the container untilthere is a problem and usually a
really big problem, like thefrog getting boiled in the soup
problem. And then it's a littletoo late and then I'm really
(03:04):
resentful.
And it's a harder problem tosolve the more you wait. I was
working with an accountabilitycoach at the time and I was
like, you know what I need? Ineed to like review this every
week and I need to understandlike, how is it working? How is
it maybe not working? And, andso I journaled about things that
could go wrong and things thatwhen they're right, they're
(03:25):
really right.
And it feels right. And then Icame up with my original
criteria. And then over theyears, I've been using this for
six of them, eight years andthey've just changed it, sort of
migrated into what works for meand what things do I need to
keep an eye on so that I'mforever happy and that, you
know, that if we if we decidenot to work together, it's about
(03:48):
some other reason, not because Ihaven't spoken up because, you
know, things are going south andI didn't realize it.
Susan Boles (03:54):
I think you're right, especially in fractional
roles. It's so easy for thatengagement to go just off the
rails because by nature of itbeing fractional, it's really
difficult to figure out whatguardrails to put in. It's very
difficult to create a scope ofwork for a fractional role when
(04:17):
normally in a consultantengagement, you have a thing
that you're delivering or aproduct or something. But the
nature of the fractional roleand why they're also so powerful
is that they kind of incorporateeverything that that c suite
whoever would incorporate. So itmakes it very difficult to
(04:40):
create guardrails, and I lovethe boiling a frog thing because
it never happens all at once.
It's always like, oh, here, I'lldo one thing. That's not quite
in scope, but, like, it's notit's not out of scope. So I'll
just do it this one time. Andthen that one time, you know,
six months down the road withthis client, you're like, I
(05:00):
don't know what happened. Idon't like this.
And I'm not sure that they doeither.
Karen Sergeant (05:05):
Oh my gosh. Exactly. And then other item
that I feel like kinda creeps upon you is that so many of us
fractionals are problem solvers.Right? We walk into a mess and
we fix it.
It's not exclusive to the COOsuite. I mean, I'm sure other
fractionals are like, oh, I dothe same thing. I walk into a
mess and I fix it. Well, ourclients sometimes cooperate with
(05:28):
the fixes and sometimes it takesa minute for them to learn new
habits. And so they can besetting fires all along.
And it is in scope for me tofight the fire. Right. But too
much of that. And that's really,that's the snaker for me is when
they is when you come in withyour expertise. So it's not just
(05:49):
the doing, it's the expertisethat we're bringing.
And when that doesn't get fully,fully incorporated in our
client's mindset, it can be adrag. And I want to watch that
and actually call that out andtalk about it with my client
before I'm just like, you knowwhat? I don't like working with
you.
Susan Boles (06:07):
I think you're right. I think one of the
biggest challenges I know andwork with my clients and other
fractionals that I've talked tois when you come in in a
fractional role, it's sort of aweird place to sit as an
organization because in order togive your best advice, to do the
best problem solving, you haveto have a really strong
(06:28):
understanding of what'shappening throughout the
company, especially inoperations or finance. I mean,
honestly, even in, you know, aCMO role, you really need to
understand what's happening inall areas of the business, which
means from a, like, strategicplanning perspective or even
just a day to day perspective,you really need to be
integrated. But the nature ofbeing a consultant sometimes
(06:51):
means it's really difficult tocreate that relationship and,
like, get embedded when you'rein a fractional capacity. Is
that something that you you findas well?
Karen Sergeant (07:03):
Yes. I mean, we have the delicate balance,
especially us fractionals thatwork with really, really small
businesses. We are partners asmuch as we are part time
employees or part timecontractors. You know, we are
expected not just to fall inline and do the work, but to
come in with new ways of doingthe work. And that is always a
(07:24):
dance.
That's what they actually payfor. That's what they're eager
to get at the beginning. Andsometimes that doesn't last
because it's a drag to changeyour habits. It really,
sometimes over time, I feel likeI'd fall in line and fight the
fires that I I'm gonna go aroundand keep setting. And if we
create a culture where we'retalking about that from the get
go, and we're having that, thatagenda item is always, so how's
(07:49):
it going?
You know, that sort of like, howare we working together? If
we're always addressing thatfrom the absolute get go, and I
have real agenda items for that.
Susan Boles (07:59):
Not just like, yeah,
Karen Sergeant (08:00):
it's really great, Susan. It's it's fun
working with you. I was like,well, here are some hiccups. Do
you have any feedback for me?You know, like, it actually
creates real agenda items forthat part of the meeting, for
that part of the one on one.
And if you're gonna give, youknow, honest feedback back and
forth, start at the beginningbefore there's any problems, and
(08:21):
then you're just gonna have ahealthier relationship
altogether.
Susan Boles (08:24):
Yeah. I love that. So let's, let's get into the
meat and potatoes because nowyou have prompted so many more
questions that I have. So kindof describe the report card to
me. What kind of criteria areyou measuring?
Like, what's actually in thisreport card?
Karen Sergeant (08:39):
Yep. So for me, I end up having 10 criteria, and
I measure them weekly on a fivepoint scale. So the five point
scale is just a typical one.Five is high, one is low, and I
have actual sentences for eachof the fives. Like the three,
you don't really want to hangout at a three.
A three is a few things aregoing right. And a few things
(09:01):
are going wrong and it's notactually where you want to be.
So it really truly is amidpoint. You really want, I
guess the average to be in thefours. And of course the fives
are, are awesome.
And I call a two and a one, acode red. They're just like
they, like they have to beaddressed. And I made, this is
when I was back working with myaccountability coach. I, I had
(09:21):
sort of sworn a solemn duty toput on the agenda, anything that
had a two or a one, or thatslipped below trend. Report card
is half the battle talking withyour client about what you're
seeing is really where the magichappens.
But for me, what the habit of aweekly report card solves for me
(09:42):
is, I don't know when you get tothe end of the week and you're
exhausted, you're like, oh, thisis never, this is this client.
It's never been going right. Ithasn't gone right in years. You
know, that kind of, and you justget it's whatever just happened
last colors all of yourthinking. Mhmm.
And what I was trying to do isget away from that. There are
things going well. And there'sone thing that dipped in. It's
been three weeks since itdipped. You know, so it allows
(10:04):
you I mean, I guess maybe I'm alittle bit of a data person, but
it allows me to get really goodperspective on how bad is it?
How long has it been bad? Youknow, so that there's contours
to the problem instead of justlike drinking on a Friday night
and muttering into your beer,you know?
Susan Boles (10:20):
No. I love the idea of creating I think especially
when it's a routine that happensweekly or monthly or core you
know, where you're touching baseon a regular basis, I think it
gives you so much qualitativedata. Even if in this case, you
have quantified the data, whatyou're actually doing is
quantifying qualitative dataabout the relationship, how you
(10:42):
feel about it, all of thosedifferent things. And that is
such a valuable reflection as abusiness owner to figure out
where you need to change things,what does need to be modified or
tweaked or improved. And atleast for me, my weekly
reflection process is the thingthat keeps me on track.
(11:04):
I I'm not so much with theexternal accountability. I I'm
very demand avoidance, so Idon't like anybody else telling
me what to do. I don't evenreally like myself telling me
what to do. But having regulartouch points allows you to
create a pattern recognitionwhere almost when you start
doing it frequently enough, youcan start seeing problems before
(11:25):
they actually start happening.
Karen Sergeant (11:26):
A %. And also for us fractionals, this can
happen for anybody. You can bean employee, you can be a
business owner, you can do thisno matter what your role, but
for us fractionals, we give up alot to stay fractional. And one
of the things that we hope thatwe get in return is the
flexibility and the freedom andthe ability to, to love our work
(11:49):
and to love our clients. And soit's almost putting our money
where our mouth is or puttingaccountability where our mouth
is, is that let's make sure thatwe stay with clients.
I know that you're fond ofsaying that calm is a KPI. And
for me, vibe is a KPI. This isall I love that. It's one of the
most important KPIs in mybusiness. Do I love and do I
(12:11):
love the work with my clients?
Susan Boles (12:13):
You know what's so interesting is, like, you know
how when you have, like, coffeechats with folks and they're
like, oh, so who do you workwith? Who should I send to you?
And I always have the hardesttime because, like you, I'm
like, it's a vibe. Like, it'sreally values based. You know?
Like, if they're a hustle bro,we are not gonna get along. We
don't have the same values. Wedon't have the same perspective
(12:34):
on the world. We don't have thesame perspective on how we treat
our team members or ourcommunity or ourselves. Like,
it's it's entirely vibes based,and it's hard to it's hard to
quantify that.
So I love that this is vibesbased.
Karen Sergeant (12:51):
It is. It is. So my first two out of the 10, my
first two are very vibey. Yetthe CEO values me and my
contribution and my interactionwith the CEO sort of frequency
and style. So these are thingsthat they're really kinda hard
to qual, to quantify.
But, you know, like, you knowwhen it is. And so that came out
(13:15):
of my journaling. Like, whenthat is awesome. I love working
with my clients. So they keeptheir regular meetings.
They don't slack me too often inthe meantime, like, so there's
actual like things I can bringup again in a meeting with them
that says, listen, there's toomany off cycle stuff. Like
things are fixable when they'resmaller. So let's notice the
(13:36):
trend and then identify it rightaway. So the next two are about
the team. What's my interactionwith the team?
And then for me as a COO, thisitem strengths or gaps on the
team. And this is an importantone because this is the,
potential trouble on the horizonmetric for us COOs because we're
(13:57):
gap fillers. So if we're gapfillers, just this once, just so
we can get this thing out thedoor, I wanna know how many gaps
I spot so that
Susan Boles (14:07):
All of a sudden, you're an entire department of
people, just you.
Karen Sergeant (14:10):
Crap. So often you're like, well, Karen does a
good job. Let's just keep herno. So I like to know if we let
somebody go or someone, youknow, after all isn't isn't
working up to their potential,you know, things like that. What
do I see on the team that mightspell a little bit of trouble
for me?
And I want to get thoseofficially closed, not Karen
(14:31):
closed, but like officiallyclosed. So that's a, that's a
great one for me.
Susan Boles (14:35):
We're gonna take a quick break to hear from our
sponsors, but when we come back,Karen will walk us through the
next few segments of her reportcard. And then we'll talk about
how you can apply this in yourown work.
Karen Sergeant (14:46):
These are sort of brass tacks, the next couple
(15:35):
hours, hours and intensity. AndI like measuring that because,
you know, there are certaintimes a year that are busier
than others. And you can kind offorget that there was a lull
time when you're busy and youforget, you know, like you
you're just put in it. And whatI want to know is how long have
I been in it? How long has itbeen this way?
Is this the new reality or isthis just busy time? So hours
(15:57):
and intensity and thencompensation Is the amount and
format okay with the work? Sodon't don't those don't
necessarily change often unlessother things are getting out of
whack. But I do like it'simportant to feel well
appreciated. And it's importantto know that if if other things
aren't going well, that at leastI'm getting, you know, like this
(16:18):
is I'm getting good, wellcompensated for my effort.
So that kind of helps me keep myperspective. So the next two,
ability to stay on scope andability to stay on priorities.
And they're not the same thingbecause for those of us who,
whose scope is to problem solve,I can technically still be on
scope, but I am in react mode,firefighting, run around like an
(16:42):
idiot mode, And that's what thepriorities one measures. So if
we say that these three thingsare important and I'm off doing
five, six, seven, eight, nine,10, 11, 12 for a living, then
we're not staying on ourpriorities. And that's an
occasion for me to speak up and,deal with it at the, client
level.
The last two are probably themost qualitative. And they're so
(17:06):
important to me because I thinkthese two are everything. The
last, second to last is theproblem set is fun. Am I having
fun? Like, is this work fun?
I love that. Period. And thenthe last one, am I happy,
engaged and generous? And I gotthat one from Brene Brown
because she said that the mostgenerous people she knows are
(17:28):
the most boundaried. And I waslike, And then I noticed that
for me, that one of the earlywarning indicators is when I
start to bean count.
Like I'm by nature, I'm not abean counter. But if I start to
go down that route, if I'm like,this is the second time she's
asked me to like that kind ofstuff. I know that there's
(17:50):
trouble because that's notnatural for me. And for some
reason you're starting a troubleon the horizon.
Susan Boles (17:56):
You've overridden the boundaries you have, you
don't know about.
Karen Sergeant (18:00):
Yes. And so that is just a, like, I just close my
eyes and I'm like, do I lovebeing generous on this team?
Like, do I love, like, am Ihappy to, you know, pitch in and
things like that? And that isjust like almost everything else
doesn't matter. That's the onethat really matters.
It's kind of the most looseygoosey, but that's the one that
I care about kind of the most.
Susan Boles (18:20):
I would agree that for me, that would be the most
important one.
Karen Sergeant (18:23):
And so every week I just have one big long,
in fact, it is years and yearslong Evernote note where I just
grab the last week. I put it upat the top. I zero it out and
fill it in. And I do a quickparagraph of just sort of like,
almost like a journal, like thishappened and then that other
happened and then this happened.So I have a little context and
then I fill it out.
(18:44):
I highlight anything that's atwo or a one, or I highlight
anything that's suddenly wentdown or up off trend. And then I
go fill out, like if there's anagenda, if we have a shared
agenda with a client and there'sanything I feel like we need to
talk about, I flip over and addit to the agenda and that's how
it works.
Susan Boles (19:10):
So, one, are you using this at all in your sales
process? Like, when you aregetting a vibe from you know,
you're on a sales call, you'retrying to figure out if they're
gonna be a good fit or thosekinds of things, does this show
up there as well?
Karen Sergeant (19:25):
Yes. Although not as diligently as it does
once I'm on the job, but youwould think that I would, that I
would use this. You know, Iprobably have this so well
dialed into my heart of heartsthat I, I probably bring some of
that to bear. And, you know, Ialways ask for strengths and
gaps on TV. Yeah.
You want to know like what, whatkind of, what kind of deal
(19:45):
you're walking into. The way Iwork generally is we either have
a project that we're gonna, likea finite project we're working
on together before we move on,or we have a ninety day thing.
So I usually get in there anduse it and use it very
diligently during our honeymoonprocess just to see if we wanna
move on.
Susan Boles (20:04):
Yeah. I'm I'm very much the same. I do intensives
to get a the the point is tomake sure that, like, we're a
good fit to work together, andwe like each other, and there's
no, like, red flags on eitherpart that this isn't gonna be a
good fit going long term. Ithink especially in, like,
operations, finance, stuff that,like, is really in the heart of
(20:25):
the business. I think it's soimportant to make sure that the
trust is there because you mightbe a good vibe fit, but, you
know, maybe they just don'trespect your expertise and you
know that they are never gonnaget the value out of working
with you because they don'twanna listen to anybody.
Karen Sergeant (20:40):
Right. Right. Right. Exactly so. And then can
they handle the feedback?
That's the other thing is like,like the second part is I'm
going to be showing up givingyou this kind of feedback. I
think it's valuable. And ifthey're like, only talk to me if
there's problems or just gosolve your own problems or
whatever that is. And then, andthen we know that that's less of
a vibe than we were hoping.
Susan Boles (20:59):
Yep. So are you using this explicitly with
clients or are you using it togenerate the topics that you
need to bring up with clients?
Karen Sergeant (21:11):
It's the latter. I think it would be hilarious.
Now, Susan, you've slipped froma three to a two, and I last
week I
Susan Boles (21:18):
just like, I could see a world where, like, some
sort of touch base like,quantitative touch base, maybe
not as explicitly as you areusing it on the personal side,
but some sort of, like, explicithow do we both think things are
going perspective could bereally useful. So I was curious
(21:40):
if it had evolved into that atall or if you're just using it
to kind of allow yourself tomanage the client relationship
better.
Karen Sergeant (21:46):
You know, I use it just to manage the client
relationship better. And I do infact, I ask this on interviews.
When I interview, for myclients, I ask what is what is
your criteria for evaluating apotential client or a potential
gig. I'm always interested inthe yardstick that people show
up with for what success lookslike for them. So I am also
(22:08):
asking that of the client.
I know what her top three are,maybe not her top 10, but I know
what her top three are. And Ican sort of self evaluate, you
know, my own self on what shevalues. And if that's not in
alignment, if she values thingslike hop to it or chop chop, you
know, that kind of like don'tquestion, just do, or, you know,
(22:29):
things like that, then I knowthat we're instantly not
aligned. But, generally, I justlet this generate agenda items
that I just, I mean, maybe theyknow, maybe they don't know that
I'm evaluating it on the regularon the outside.
Susan Boles (22:43):
So how does this kind of stand alone report card
integrate with the rest of yourbusiness? So are there other
systems that you have that kindof play into this data that you
need to collect regularly tomake this work or that this goes
into? How does this integrate inthe overall rest of your
processes?
Karen Sergeant (23:03):
That's fascinating. You know, I have
only started tracking maybe inthe last year or so, befores and
afters so that I could have atransformation story in my own
marketing and case studies andthings like that. Before that I
did a lousy job. I would just,honestly, I was so focused on
the client experience that Iwasn't building my own
(23:24):
repertoire of case studies andwhat do I do when I walk into a
business. Just all of myprocesses and things like that.
So there's an intake form inyou. It's again, mostly
qualitative. And how do you feelabout your team? Are the people
in the right seats? You know,those types of operational
questions.
So I can track like the impactof my work with a client. And I
(23:46):
wonder if this is true, I wouldlove if we could just like zip
in a client to see if they wouldagree with me. So often, so
they're very grateful for thechanges in their business. They
really are. I mean, when thebusiness runs better, they're
able to do what it is that they,you know, dreamed of the
business doing.
But I would venture to say thatjust as important and even more
(24:07):
important is the feeling thatthey're understood, the feeling
that they're well mentored, thefeeling that they get when they
work with me is almost moreimportant than or just as
important as, you know, thebusiness is better. Right. Right
team now, you know, all of thatstuff. It is a lonely business
(24:28):
being a founder CEO, especially
Susan Boles (24:31):
of
Karen Sergeant (24:31):
a small business. And your spouse might
not get it. Your girlfriends aretired of you. They're talking
about your team. Where is thatperson where you get to unload?
And, you know, without overexplaining like she gets it.
And, and also just like, youknow, the kind of complaints
that you would never do to, liketo someone who, you know, who
(24:53):
works on your team. I am a team,but it's a different
relationship. So I think myclients have something similar,
whether they have it explicitlyor not, they must know because
these are the types of thingsthat I think they value as well.
Susan Boles (25:12):
So what is the impact of having this system for
you? So how does this make yourbusiness or your work feel
calmer or more sustainable foryou?
Karen Sergeant (25:25):
So for me, it allows me to raise issues and
address issues when they'retiny, when they're small.
Doesn't mean there's no issues.It means that we catch them
early when they're solvable.Like when I'm a fractional team
members like report into me andI have one on ones in a, in a
managerial role with them. I, Idon't know.
(25:49):
I don't explicitly ask them tokeep a report card, but I have
that agenda item and I expectthem to show up with, how are
you feeling this week? How arethings? What are things going
on? Mostly because I wanna catchproblems early before there's
emotion wrapped around it beforewe start hating each other
before anyone cries. I want tohear about the problem so that I
(26:10):
can solve it one way or theother, before it, you know,
rears its big ugly head.
So it is a calm KPI. It actuallyengineers calm into a business.
If we all speak up about tinyproblems and, and give each
other permission to do thatbecause nobody really wants to
be like, here's a tiny thing.Give me all the tiny problems. I
(26:34):
want to solve problems whenthey're tiny, but I can see how
someone feels like it's not thatbig a deal.
I won't bother Karen with it.
Susan Boles (26:43):
Yeah. Especially when it is small and you're
like, oh, it's just, it's just aone off. It's not gonna happen.
And then by the time it's, yourealize it is a new habit that's
been created or a new pattern.It's almost too late to undo it.
Now it's a big thing because nowyou have to break the habit and
retrain either communicationstyle. You have to retrain
(27:03):
different solutions or you haveto build a new system to, like,
counteract the habit.
Karen Sergeant (27:08):
And it's awkward conversation sometimes too. It's
like that thing that you do,Susan, I wish you had you
started six months ago, and Iwish you don't get anything.
You're like, wow. Where were youfive months ago when I thought
this was a good idea? To me, itallows me again to see, is this
is this a one off or is this anew trend?
How problematic does it looklike it is? You know, it gives
(27:31):
me all the perspective, not justthe data, but the perspective
and the context of where is thisin our overall relationship, how
much of a deal is this, and howwould I bring it up with my
client in order to get thisfixed.
Susan Boles (27:45):
Yeah. And I think the fact that you're, you know,
tracking every week and touchingbase on it gives you so much
trend data. It gives you so muchinformation to decide whether or
not something's a problem, whereif you were doing this once a
month or once a quarter or evenonce a year, you're not gonna
have that information, and it'sso easy to forget things week to
(28:06):
week. I know for me, sometimes Iget to Friday, and I'm like, I
have no idea what happened thisweek. I'm here to do my weekly
review self.
What the heck happened? I haveno idea.
Karen Sergeant (28:16):
Exactly. But you know what I do do quarterly and
yearly is look at the trend ofso this isn't client specific,
but it's almost like my businessspecific. Like, what do I tend
to be lousy at? What do I, whatare perpetual problems that I
seem to walk into? I attractclients who do this, or I don't
(28:37):
step up and address it.
Or like, what, what is a trendfor me that I can, that is a
thorn in my side. And then likewhat systems or accountability,
or what do I need in order toengineer that the hell out of my
business so that I won't be sothat I don't have like, let's go
ahead and do problems instead ofthese. So it really is a report
(28:57):
card on stuff that I'm not goodat addressing. And so I can get
better at that. I have retooledlike my service products to
engineer more scope and toengineer more communication.
Back in the day, I would haveCEOs that would ghost me that
simply would not show up formeetings.
Susan Boles (29:14):
For something that they're paying
Karen Sergeant (29:15):
for you.
Susan Boles (29:15):
I know.
Karen Sergeant (29:15):
I know. I know.
Susan Boles (29:16):
Like, I'm paying for you, but I can't be
bothered. And, CLL servicesdon't come cheap. Like Right.
Karen Sergeant (29:25):
And then, Law Fight would go continuing the
work, and then there would berework because what they really
needed to do was show up andtell me about a course change or
whatever. Once I figured thatout, that the CEO values me and
my contribution, regularmeetings that they keep, like
those are the top two. They needto show up fully themselves.
I'll engineer you out. And Iengineer the service products I
(29:47):
provide so that you almostcan't, you wouldn't be attracted
to what I sell if you weren'tinterested in, in showing up
and, and doing the work.
Susan Boles (29:56):
Tell me more about that. Cause you know, I tend to
geek out on service design. Sotell me more about how you're
actually thinking aboutstructuring your services to
circle back and enforce kind ofthe behaviors that you find you
work best with.
Karen Sergeant (30:14):
Yes. A lot of it circles around that call, that
call that we meet. So I makesure that it is a one on one.
Very rarely can a third personshow up. And that's because we
need as leaders, we need to, weneed to dish about the rest of
the team and we need to dishabout what's not going right.
(30:34):
And if there's that third personor if it's recorded in that
third person can see it, there'sa different vibe and the honesty
and those kinds of, agenda itemswill not surface. And yet they
will still surface and bite mein the butt later. And I would
again, rather have an earlierthan later. So you must show up
for calls and you must show upalone for calls. And pretty much
(30:56):
you need to show up ready tospeak about, like I would, like
I have a KPI dashboard.
I don't review the dashboard onthe call. You know, like you
have to have reviewed it andunder have a question or things
like that. And so I make surethose expectations are really
upfront so that they so thatwe're actually getting to the
work right away. I'm not anexecutive assistant, you know,
(31:17):
giving them a report that theycan read while I drum my
fingers. You know, like we'rereally working together.
Many of my clients, this is thefirst relationship, business
relationship that they had. Alot of my clients don't have
corporate experience.
Susan Boles (31:31):
Mhmm.
Karen Sergeant (31:32):
And so having a wingman that you have to show up
per just as prepared for, like Ishow up prepared, we start
cooking with gas. If you show upprepared and I show up prepared,
there's nothing we can't do. Butif we're gonna waste some time
and then you're gonna be like,wow, that meeting with Karen's a
drag, you know, like that kindof it's not, we waste twenty
five of that sixty minute call.Then they'll start devaluing it.
(31:54):
And then I can understand whythey wanna be like, not this
week.
So you engineer, you have anagenda, you have, expectations,
and I'm very upfront about that.
Susan Boles (32:08):
Anything around the report card or managing the
client relationship, I think, isespecially important that we
haven't touched on that youthink we we should.
Karen Sergeant (32:18):
First of all, I would urge anyone listening to
do this. Absolutely. I wouldonly use my list as a jumping
off point because my categoriesare not your categories. You
might phrase them differently.You also might throw a couple of
them out and put it into acouple new ones again, but start
by journaling or just mentallyjournaling.
Like what's great about yourgreatest client? What are the
(32:40):
things that are on track with agreat client? And then what are
the things that bite you? Verytypically as a trend. That's
your first category of, ofitems.
Run with those and starttracking them weekly. Get your
own five point scale, put yourown words to it and start
tracking it weekly. It really isthe habit of tracking them.
There's no glory in creating areport card and not using it,
(33:02):
but track them and then start tosee what the fallout is from
that. Sometimes you'd almosthave to adjust your perspective,
which is, well, she does thatone thing, but the other nine
things are great.
So maybe I just need to problemsolve that one thing or just be
grateful. Everything typicallyisn't going bad. And it's
usually one or two things goingbad. And they've only been going
(33:23):
bad for the last three weeks.You know, like that kind of
perspective can really help youmanage your own expectations and
your own mental head space whenit comes to clients.
Client wear and tear, I think issort of like the secret, the
dirty secret of fractional work.It's never the work. And we
always feel like, you know, likewe try to find the good ones and
(33:45):
hang on to them, but you neverknow. And we just feel like
we're in the washing machine.This is one of the ways to pull
yourself up out of the washingmachine and just get some good
perspective on it and get a gripon it.
And if you're a fractional, youalmost need to have something
like this in your work so thatyou can manage that part of your
work that can really take it outof you.
Susan Boles (34:06):
Agreed. So what is your favorite way to make your
own work feel calmer besidesthis?
Karen Sergeant (34:13):
Oh my goodness. My favorite way is reserving
certain days for calls andreserving certain days for non
meeting work. Sometimes when myclients try to book on Fridays,
I always say, gee, they go, oh,that's right. You don't work on
Fridays. I work on Fridays.
I just don't take calls onFridays. It's a totally
(34:34):
different thing. And havingthose big, long white spaces
where there's just not going tobe interruption is
transformative for my work,whether it's going head down
into a, you know, pivot table orsomething like that for a client
where if the phone rings orsomething like that's twenty
(34:54):
minutes of trying to get backinto that rabbit hole before I
know what's going on, or it'sdoing the marketing for my own
team. Like it's, there is juststuff that I need to have really
long focus for. And once Istarted time blocking for those
things, I really saw a bigdifference in the quality of
work that I could produce, butalso my mood and, how just
(35:15):
bothered I was by the end of theday or how lack thereof.
And so really kind of takingthat out for myself, I think was
the, was the biggest thing.
Susan Boles (35:25):
I do the same, and it was really transformative for
me having, like, full days wherethere's no calls, there's no
interruptions. I can be veryfocused on whatever it is that
I'm building or doing orcreating that day. And, yeah,
sometimes I'm still interactingwith clients because, you know,
I'm working on something for aclient, but that's not getting
(35:47):
interrupted. It's like it's onmy own terms that I'm
interacting with people versussometimes it can kind of feel
like just a wave of chaos at youwhere you just it is very
unpredictable when you are in afractional capacity or, really,
I think if you work with clientson any kind of retainer model,
it's very unpredictable whenthey are gonna decide that they
(36:08):
have a challenge, and all of asudden it becomes your
challenge. And so being able tocreate those big white spaces, I
think, is is so important.
Karen Sergeant (36:19):
Amen, sister.
Susan Boles (36:24):
Managing a client relationship is one of the most
challenging things you ever doas a service provider, and it
takes practice. You have tolearn where your engagements
might go off the rails. You Youhave to get better and better at
being able to identify red flagswhen you're having sales
conversations. And we all messit up, even those of us who have
been at this for over a decade.Karen's client report card is a
(36:47):
really way to identify issues ina more systematic way.
You could even take this ideaand build a report card or a
more standardized evaluationprocess for your prospects so
that you can use it during yoursales conversations. Now if
you've been doing this for awhile, you might not actually
need a formal evaluationprocess. You might have a pretty
(37:08):
finely honed, processinternally, but it's a great way
to collect data and then use itto get feedback on where you're
hitting the mark with clients orwhere you might need to improve.
You can also use it to remindyourself that things are
actually going well when you'rein one of those dips where you
actually hate everything or toto get engagements back on track
(37:29):
before they really go off therails. Designing your own client
or prospect report card can be areally effective way to evaluate
what that relationship is reallylike.
And as it does for Karen, it canactually make your business
calmer. This can be a calm KPIfor you. And if you decide to
implement this in your ownbusiness, let me know. I'd love
(37:52):
to hear about how you apply thisto your own work. Big thanks to
everyone who supports BeyondMargins.
If you're a listener, a sponsor,or a partner of any kind, I
couldn't do this show withoutyou. You can support this show
by leaving a rating and areview. It really does help new
listeners hit play with moreconfidence, and you can support
our sponsors by using the linksin your show notes. All of this
(38:15):
helps me keep this independentpodcast going and growing. So
thank you, and thanks forlistening.
Until next time, stay calm.
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