Am I a 6? Or is that my OCD? with Enneagram 6, Christina S. Wilcox

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina W (00:00):
There's always something.
whether it's still related inthat same vein, or I find
something else to not understandand like need, it's like, I have
to have certainty in my mind, inevery area of my life to feel
safe and the brief moments whereI've felt certain about X, Y,

(00:21):
and Z.
that's when I've realized like,certainty alone.
Doesn't make me feel safe.
and it might never make me feelsafe, because sometimes you have
all the answers and you couldstill be in an unsafe
environment.
That's a really hard thing forme to navigate and so it just

(00:43):
kind of, I just started havingto unpack, like, how do I build
safety for and what does safetyactually look like and what if
safety isn't always, like,again, how am I defining safety?
I'm defining it as certainty.

(01:03):
Right?
So it's it just kind ofreconciling that certainty
doesn't always equal safety
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of Enneagram and real
life.
The podcast where we explore howto apply our Enneagram knowledge
in our daily lives.

(01:25):
I'm your host, Stephanie Barronhall.
And on today's episode, I amchatting with Christina Wilcox.
Now this episode is a little bitdifferent from some of the other
interviews that I've done,because we've known each other
for a while, and it's justreally two friends chatting and
catching up and talking aboutthe Enneagram.
But I really love this episodebecause we really explore.

(01:47):
A lot of type six things that Ithink are not talked about all
that often.
And we get to hear a lot ofChristina's internal processing
of the different questions thatwe're discussing and just, you
know, different aspects of thisconversation.
So we're going to talk abouttype six, typing, like how she
kind of had to figure out hertype through various other

(02:07):
numbers.
And if you're familiar withChristina on Instagram at all.
You might've seen that.
She originally said she was afour and then she posted that
she was a three and theneventually she came around to
type six.
And so I really loved herexploration of that and just the
courage to, to.
Come out and say, Hey, actually,I got it wrong.
Um, and here's why, and here aresome of the reasons, and then we

(02:29):
talk about OCD versus type sixand how she determines those two
things and how she teases themapart.
And how any type can really haveany of these mental health
diagnoses like OCD, for example.
and then she also talks a lotabout getting in touch with
emotions as a six and how itkind of manifests physically

(02:50):
first.
And I really appreciated thisconversation because I do think
a lot of sixes, they.
I think, you know, oh, I havethis connection to emotions
because there can be fear, butthey're really trying to
mitigate the fear and notexperience it.
and so she talks about how she'slearned to be able to label her
emotions a little bit moreaccurately.

(03:11):
And then we also talk about herfive wing and how she kind of
was able to determine, okay, I'mnot a five, I do have this five
wing, but, I'm not a five.
And one thing I'd love tomention is Christina does talk
today about the arrows or thearrow lines.
And so she talks about them asstress insecurity.
And we didn't discuss thisbecause we didn't have time.

(03:31):
And I really wanted to hear moreof her story today, but, um, I
have a bit of a differentperspective on the arrows.
So I see them not as stress andsecurity numbers, but other.
You know, aspects or points onthe Enneagram that we can
access.
In different times of life,whether that's intentionally or
unintentionally.
Um, and if you want to learnmore about that, you can explore

(03:52):
it further and exactly what itmight look like and my upcoming
book and a gram in real life.
So that is one of the topicsthat I described for.
Every single type.
And I really think it'll behelpful for us to understand
that this part of the Enneagrama little bit differently.
So before we begin theinterview.
I'll share a little bit moreabout Christina.

(04:14):
Christina is a 26 year oldauthor mental health advocate,
Enneagram expert, and creative.
You may recognize her from herfirst book, take care of your
type and Enneagram guide to selfcare.
Or from one of her Instagramgraphics.
And since we recorded thispodcast episode, Christina
released her second book, whichis called take care of your

(04:34):
friends.
And it's all about how to applysome of the concepts that she
talks about in taking care ofyour own type, like, how to be
kind to yourself and, andfriendship and those sorts of
things and doing that for yourfriends and it's just a
fantastic guide to be inpositive relationships with
other people.
So.
Christina continues to pursueher passion for writing and

(04:55):
analysis of behavior.
As she works a nine to five jobin content strategy.
She hopes to continue to advanceher understanding of the
Enneagram while expanding herwritten work and online content
into other mental health topicsoutside of personality typing
systems.
She currently resides in Denver,Colorado with her husband, Noah
and their puppy moose.

(05:16):
And by the way, moose is verycute.
She does post about him onInstagram.
When she's not writing orcreating, you can find Christina
indulging in cozy video games,books across every genre.
And quality time with friendsand family.
You can find her online atChristina S.
Wilcox on Instagram.
Um, at kristina S wilcox.com,which all of these will be in
the show notes.

(05:37):
And then also her YouTube andpodcast is called genuinely care
about you podcast.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Christina
S.
Wilcox.

Steph Barron Hall (05:48):
Well, Christina, welcome to the
podcast.

Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here and catchup.
I love the work you're doingwith this podcast and excited to
be here.

Yeah.
Thanks so much.
I'm also excited to hear alittle bit more about.
Your process because we'll talkabout this more, but I haven't
had many sixes on the podcast.

So

and I've only had one five.
So if anyone out there knows afive

I know.

who is willing to, you know, be
recorded,

Yes.
Yes.
Well, I am a wing five, so maybeI can touch a little bit.

maybe you can enlighten us.

Yeah.

I love it.
A little bit of an introductioninto you and also how you got
into the Enneagram.

Yeah.
so I'm Christina Wilcox foranyone who doesn't know.
and you're like, who are you andwhy are you here?
but I, uh, Basically, my careerjourney thus far has been pretty
segmented into typical corporatenine to five marketing,

(06:59):
copywriting girl, and then in2019, I started posting about
the Enneagram for fun on mypersonal Instagram account.
And it, I always say it likenichely went viral because it
wasn't like a full blown viralsituation, but as in the niche
of the Enneagram, it kind ofwent viral along with a lot of,

(07:22):
other creators like yourselfand, Sarah Jane Case and a bunch
of people.
It just was like the explosionof the Enneagram on Instagram.
and so the other half of mycareer has been content creation
and, authorship, writing booksabout the Enneagram and then,

(07:43):
it's kind of slowly, moreevolving to and to, mental
health advocacy and just talkingmore about, mental health in
general as, um, I really startedmy own journey.
When all of that had happened tome, but I discovered the
Enneagram through a, um, I wassuper into the Myers Briggs,

(08:06):
That was like my firstintroduction into personality
typing, and I made everyone Iknew take it.
I am an INFJ, so when I got myresult, and it was like, you're
within the least popularPersonality, you know, whatever,

(08:26):
like in the population, I waslike, that's why I feel so
different.
Oh my gosh.
And it was such a, in the friendgroup I was in at the time too,
everyone else tested asextroverts and I was the only
introvert.
So I was also finally able toexplain my disappearances to
people with a language, um, andwords that I wasn't acquainted

(08:49):
with before, but, That kind offell into the Enneagram and when
I was first introduced to it, itwas actually a church with
someone I was like singing withat the time And he was a four
and he was like you just give mea lot of four energy And I think
you're a four too And when Iread the four Description I was

(09:13):
like horrified no offense to anyfours I mean all the respect but
because it wasn't accurate to meand someone was like You It was
like a weird experience, becausehe was really putting it down my
throat that I was a four.
And so I kind of was like, Idon't like this thing.
I don't want to be involved init, whatever.
And then, about a year later, Iwas reintroduced to it, and I

(09:36):
took the test.
and I actually tested as a threeat first.
which, six is in stress.
Show a lot of three traits.
And when I took that test, Idefinitely was in more of a
state season of stress in mylife.
and so I really identified withthe heart triad for a long time.

(09:59):
but it wasn't until I actuallystarted going to therapy and
with the Enneagram to likedissecting my actual motivations
that I was like, no, I'm forsure a mind type, there's no
doubt about that.
and then eventually I landed on.
Once I was out of the state ofstress and when I noticed that
too, like when It's so hard whenyou're so deep into the system

(10:24):
At the point i'm at now like atsome point it just feels like
words reverberating in my brainum But I did start to notice
that when I was growing or Ifelt safe or whatever I did show
a lot of nine tendencies as wellso I just started to find the
little pathway that I wasfollowing in stress and growth

(10:46):
and My core motivate coremotivations and.
Yeah, that's, I, I was, I feellike I was the longest content
creator, Enneagram contentcreator that like didn't, it
took me the longest to figureout my type, like I didn't start
posting knowing for sure what myown type was.

(11:07):
Which I feel like is veryinteresting, but, yeah, I'm
pretty confident now that I'm asix.

What test did you take?

Oh gosh.
I think I took like the eclecticenergies.

Mm hmm.
Mm

Um, and then at one point I did take the Enneagram
Institute test for a job.
and that one I actually cameback as a two.
but it's interesting.
When you leave again, like theenvironment I was in and the

(11:46):
stress I was under reallyinfluenced how I adapted myself
to.
situations, but I would say thatI definitely always have had the
six traits without a doubt.
My mom is also a six.
so she just copy and pastedherself.

ha ha.
Yeah.
There you go.
Um, I think that that's helpfulto hear because there are
certainly sixes who find theirtype immediately, but I've even
had people call me for like atyping interview and be like, I
think I'm a six, but I'm notsure.
I want this interview to besure.
And I've said, you know what?

(12:29):
Even if I tell you you're a six,you're not going to

no.

and literally kind of turning people away
because not because I don'tthink that it could be helpful,
but more so, I don't think forthat particular person, the
certainty that they're lookingfor is what they're going to
receive.

No, and that's the thing is at one point I did get
a six like on every single testI took I was coming back as a
six and I was still like, but Idon't know really and I think
too with sixes the fact thatit's like I'm looking for
someone else To give me thisstamp of certainty that I feel

(13:11):
like I cannot give myself Andespecially for phobic sixes like
myself, like looking to outsideauthorities to give that, like,
I am coming to you for thisinterview because I deem you as
more trustworthy.
But the funny thing about sixesis even when they do that, like

(13:32):
for speaking for myself and mymom and the sixes, I know I
could gather Intel from.
30 different people.
I'm still gonna do what Ithought I was gonna do to begin
with at the end of the day,which is so funny because it's
such wasted energy.
but I think that that's so funnythat people who are a six are

(13:53):
coming to you asking please makethis certain.
That's so ironic.

Yeah.
Well, and I think I really seesix as having a really hard time
finding their type as well asnines.
Um, and I think a lot of thetime we do talk more about the
nine aspect of that, whereassixes, especially, you know,
self preservation sixessometimes do feel a lot more
like heart types.
Sometimes social sixes feel likemore like ones.

(14:23):
Um, and so can be a reallydifficult thing to parse out,
like actually what's happening,especially with, you know, I'm
just thinking of social sixesthat I know, for example, Maybe
don't show how anxious theyactually feel on the outside.

mm hmm.
Yeah, that's what I mean, too,with even though I was testing
as all these different numbers,I once had a really close friend
of mine, I think I was like ajunior or senior in high school,
and we were like out to eat andWith a bunch of friends and
everyone was like assigning eachother an animal that we were
most like, or whatever.

(15:02):
And I remember this so vividly.
Cause he looked at me and waslike, Christina, you are a duck.
And I was like, out ofeverything you could have
chosen, like, why am I a duck?
And he said, because on theoutside you are gliding across
the water and it looks sograceful.
And he was like, but I knowunderneath your feet.
Are just going crazy.

(15:24):
And I had never been so exposedlike that before.
Yeah.
It's like, excuse me.
I was not, I did not give youpermission.
but I think that that's so truewith, especially when I was
younger, I would say I wasdefinitely gravitated more
towards the social subtype.
that makes total sense.
And I do think that our anxietyisn't always as visible as, as

(15:49):
we It's like posted about orwritten about for sure.
Yeah.

between like, oh, this is just, you know,
anxiety or even like adiagnosable anxiety disorder
versus six?

That's a great question.
I think what's interesting isthere was a point, even though I
had tested as a six, that when Igot my OCD diagnosis, it led me
on a whole other path of like,okay, so is the intrusive
thoughts related to the worstcase scenario thinking that I

(16:26):
thought was a six?
But it's actually this and whatkind of sealed the deal for me
is I do think I Kind of eventhough I don't define myself by
OCD and I view it as like achemical imbalance in my brain I

(16:49):
do feel as though it is relatedto like a part of me, a part of
me who has never felt certainabout anything and needing that
certainty.
So I kind of started to come tothe conclusion that they
definitely are separateentities.

(17:09):
Like if you took away OCD, I'mstill going to be questioning
people around me.
I'm still going to be likehaving the typical six traits,
but I do see that a part of evenlike the origin story of sixes
and their core motivations issuper.
It makes sense to me that I alsodeveloped a coping mechanism to

(17:33):
deal with doubt.
OCD is literally defined as thedoubting disorder.
And that doesn't mean every 6has OCD by any means, but for me
and my journey, and like, when Istarted really going to therapy,
I actually realized that my 6ness and this diagnosis I had
received, And like where it wasbirthed from are very connected.

(17:58):
Um, but I think, I think it's alot easier than people make it
sound like specifically onsocial media.
Like it is very clear to me whenmy behavior has become clinical
versus okay, I'm just nervous,you know,

Or like fear,

fear.
Yeah.
I think what distinguished itagain was the

say that because, um, So a friend

Though I believe sixes, like, overthink, a stark
characteristic of OCD isrumination, and then the
compulsion to eliminate thedistress from the rumination.
Where, again, can be related toa sixes being like, oh, I'm
gonna plan for this worst casescenario, but to me it was

(18:47):
never, like, it started to, Ican't, I don't know how to
explain it, but it was veryclear that, what I'm ruminating
on, Or even the fact that I'mruminating so much on being a
six.
And then at one point, one of mycompulsions was taking the test
to be so real.

(19:08):
And so then that's when itstarted to be like, okay, this
isn't, I'm not just being sexyright now.
Like this is, yeah.
Mm hmm.

and also an OCD and a therapist and, um,
mentioned, yeah, and mentionedto me that she could imagine,
um, cause I actually, havestruggled at times with my type
as well.
Um, and especially because Ifinally figured out, Oh, I'm

(19:47):
like the sexual subtype of typethree.
Um, and that's like a verydifferent expression a lot of
the time.
And so also, I have OCD,

yeah Yeah,

a very recent revelation, but, super helpful
and important one.
And she just kind of noted thattendency to constantly be
checking and rechecking, am Iactually three?
Am I actually three?
And I think since I had thatconversation with her, it's
actually been really useful andmore helpful for me to be like,
Oh, like I can kind of deciphera little bit more like, Oh,

(20:19):
that's an OCD thought or like.
That's, you know, a real thing.
And I've just been researching aton, like the connection between
like, especially scrupulosityand, and growing up in some of
the environments, like in termsof like religious environments
that I did.
and I, yeah, I just think it'sso interesting to try to like,

(20:41):
kind of tease these thingsapart.
and then I'm sometimes like,wait, am I doing the rumination?

gosh at some point I'll be like I probably look
crazy from the outside But likeagain, I'll just be like
researching so or doing the samething because I also love to You
Pick, pick this even topicexactly apart.
And then when I start going intolike, wait, did I, is that, and
then again, the spiral startsand I, sometimes you just got to

(21:09):
chuckle because it's this isridiculous.
It's

You're like, I'm doing it.
I know I'm doing the thing.

Yes.

can't stop the train right

No, no.
And sometimes acknowledging itis all you can do.

Yeah,

The train is going and I know it's going

yeah.

It's going.

And I think it can be really difficult,
especially, I don't know ifyou've felt this way, but like
having, you know, kind of thiscareer that's so public facing,
especially when you have a lotof obsessions and things about
harming, like saying somethingthat

Yeah.
Oh my gosh.

and then trying to navigate how to like
be a person

Yeah.

promote your work.

It's horrible.

mind

such a mess.
Truly.
I, one of a huge compulsion andlike theme I had to work through
in, cause I did about a year anda half, maybe two years of
exposure response preventiontherapy.
And literally at one point, Shewas like, I don't know if this

(22:19):
is a theme of OCD, but she said,it's a theme for you is just
even the fear that like, Iposted something I don't
remember.
Or like this one word I used isgoing to be, especially when
that had happened to me beforeactually.
And that was enough to like,paralyze my ability to do

(22:43):
anything involved with.
social media for a while andThere is this like you said I
want to show up as me and as aperson and as my Full self
because it's also fun.
Like I love interacting With thepeople that follow me.
It's like the main joy of whatwe do I think is just connecting

(23:04):
with people but then there isthat like pressure of being an
advocate for so many thingsbecause you have a platform
regardless of what it is or whatyou think about it, it is
difficult of balancing andfiguring out that dance of Being
scared to advocate for anythingeven or even getting stuck of

(23:29):
like is this Performative isthis genuine is this this and
it's just like oh my gosh Girl,just post and I started to do
that.
I started to be like, here's thesky today or you know That's
what I'll do.
Sometimes when I find myself inthese spirals is just post
something so mindless Or, Idon't know, it is, this has

(23:56):
become a ramble, but just, it isa hard, it is interesting how
OCD formulate, or the fear ofgetting cancelled, the fear of,
you said, I already have thatfear of like harming people, and
not remembering,

Mm hmm.

whatever it is, the way that translates when you
have a platform on social media,is crazy.

Yeah.
And I think it's like helpful tomake that distinction too.
I mean, I can even just hear youwrestling through this, but like
the distinction is and correctme if I'm wrong, but this is
kind of how I think about it.
It's not necessarily, I'm afraidthat other people will think
this thing about me.
It's like, I can imaginespecific people that could
potentially be hurt by sayingsomething wrong and then
obsessing about that.

Oh my gosh.
100%.
It's not even like, oh, I'mscared the general public will
hate me.
It's like, I will think of, itcould be people that I know or
usernames I recognize, or evenjust like a group of people
within my audience where I'mlike, yeah, it is the fear of
like thinking of specific namesor faces or people.

(25:05):
Yeah.
That's crazy.
I never really, I never put thattogether before.
That's.
Hey, that's fun.

I mean, I, I think that it's helpful though,
to like, kind of discuss andwrestle through.
Like, I know that you talk aboutthis on your page about like the
mental health advocacy aspect ofit.
Um, but I think it's helpfulbecause I think sometimes people
kind of want all the Enneagramtypes to fit in with certain
things.

(25:34):
And so with, OCD, they're like,oh, it's either type one or

Mm hmm.
Yeah.

And of course the type one is like, because
they assume that OCD is justlike having your house really
clean or

Oh, yeah, it's like the dishwasher has to be this
way.
So yeah, no.

Oh man, my dishwasher is a nightmare.
And when my husband's editingthis, he's going to be like,
that is absolutely

Yeah.
Oh my gosh.

loads a dishwasher like a drunk
squirrel.

Yes, literally, but it's so funny like you're saying
I feel like With fitting into,like you said, like a type and a
category.
And it's so, I feel like that'ssuch an important, like you
said, important conversationthat people still break the
molds of like what you thinkthey are, which is why I fell in
love with the Enneagram too, islike marrying behavior and

(26:24):
motivation, not just somethinglike the Myers Briggs or
whatever.
But it is funny.
Cause when it's like, oh mygosh, you're six and you have
OCD, how cliche and I'm like,and we got ADHD though.
So

Fun little combo.

Or whatever it is, you know, but, um, I, I do
think, yeah, to agree with whatyou're saying, breaking that,
breaking those molds is soimportant because it also makes
like the journey of finding yourEnneagram type is something that
can be very deep and impactfulwhen it's like, especially if

(27:00):
it's your first real experiencewith going inward and figuring
out, sifting through who youare.
Um, and what you identify with,um, but I also think too, it's
like people are people at theend of the day, more than a six,

(27:20):
you know?

And, and also that's why I try to normalize
this component of like findingyour type where so many people
Missed type for so long.
Um and I can't remember if I'veshared this on the podcast.
so I'll just be generic, butlike somebody close to me, has
gone through all the differenttypes and has finally figured

(27:42):
out, you know, pretty much theirtype.
but we've learned somethinginteresting and like helpful.
about our relationship andabout, um, them at each
juncture.
So it's not for nothing, youknow what I mean?
Um, and I think that's useful toremember because people are
like, Oh, what if I go down thewrong path for forever?

Mm.

it's like, well, maybe that's a path you
needed to go down, you know?
Um, so I think that can just behelpful to remember, especially
if you are listening to this andyou're like either of us here
that you're like,

Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.

super worried about not getting your type

Yeah,

It's all right.
You're, you're a full person andthis is like one component.

oh my gosh, it's so true, and I, I am a huge
believer that, especiallybecause I've been through it,
when you're suffering underimmense stress, or you are in a
situation where you're justtrying to survive, or you're
unpacking trauma, like, It isokay if you don't know your type

(28:44):
right now, or only use the toolin those situations if it will
help you.
If not, if it's gonna cause evenmore stress, like, you can pick
it.
It's gonna be here wheneveryou're ready for it.
but I also think, too, Even withmy own journey with first being
like put in the box as a four bysomeone else and then reading

(29:05):
the four's description,

do that.

no.
but reading the four'sdescription was like, it
insulted me.
And even that alone is a clue oflike, why, why, like, if you are
this type, actually, why isbeing defined or seen this way?

(29:32):
distressing for you and Thathelped me honestly lead led me
on a path to discovering me as asix um and again Me being
insulted by the type fourdescription is my own problem
fours are lovely and I know manyfours that I deeply love Yes,

is, if you had read the sixth description,
would you have been insulted?
Because probably you were justnot feeling understood.
You're feeling like, wow, thisperson really misunderstands who
I am.

I think that's what I think it was one of the And
I'm sure you're familiar withthis term, too, of like,
masking.
Like, whether it's ADHD, OCD,whatever it is, like, I was in
such a state all the time ofmasking that That was like one
of the first reckonings, Ithink, with like, Oh, people

(30:29):
really aren't seeing me.
Like, this is how I'm coping.
And this is again, I guess howI'm masking because the person
next to me is a four, like, andthey think I'm a reflection of
who they are.
Like, it just was like thatfirst, that's a great point when
you say that.
Cause it was not just like, Oh,I don't want to be a four.

(30:51):
It was this like, Oh my gosh,I'm not being seen as who I am.

Yeah.
And I mean, you're an artist.
You're a musician.

Oh yeah, that's like with any, I have a really
close friend, who is a seven,but she's super, she's also the
sexual type of seven.
So she's super like whimsicaland loves to unpack deep topics.
And she's a lot more in touchwith her emotions, I would say.

(31:21):
Um, and she, all the time,people are like, You craft so
you're a four or like you theand she's like guys.
No, I I I'm a seven for sure butit is interesting like you said
where it's like just because Ofliterally anything doesn't mean
you fall into that into a box

Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really frustrating.
And it's something where Ialways tell people, like, don't
tell people what they are,right?

And do you know what's funny?
I don't know if this happens toyou too, but I've had some
people like come up to me andthey're like, guess my type.
Or they're like, sorry to usethat voice guys.
Um, love you.
But just like, oh, can, you'rein the room.
Can you tell what all of ourtypes are?
And I'm like, guys, it's not aparty trick.

right.

I find that so annoying.
It's so just, like you said,don't, as a PSA, don't tell
people their type and don't belike, you're literally, if
you're using this system, how itwas built to, you're literally
asking someone to be like, guessmy most deep motivations for my
behavior.

(32:35):
It's like, there's no way, noway.
Oh

I, okay, I, I agree.
And also there are times certainpeople you can tell, and, and
especially if you know theperson well, I also really feel
like, and I don't, I don't typepeople based on this because I
think that it's always helpfulto get the other person's
perspective on what it's likeinside their mind,

mm hmm.
Yeah.

but there are times when I can tell.
I just feel like this person's ahead type or I just

Oh, yeah.
Mm hmm.

there are certain things and, you know,
just, for example, even intyping interviews, a lot of the
time, uh, head types will lookin the back of their head.
Like, they're looking for theanswer in their mind.
And sixes, the whole time theysay, it depends.
Well, it depends.
Well, what do you mean by thisword?
Well, it depends.

hmm.
Mm hmm.
Again, because as A self presssix.
I i'm gonna like I would say i'ma sensitive person like i'm
definitely In touch with myemotions to some degree, but it
really to Again, going totherapy, doing a lot more inner

(33:46):
work, supplementing with theEnneagram about my motivations.
It became so clear that I useknowledge seeking, questioning
as a way to cope with pain andfeeling unsafe of like, I'm not
actually feeling anything rightnow.
It's, I'm thinking about what Ishould be feeling, what I might

(34:11):
be feeling, What I'm, I'mapproaching my emotions
intellectually and not sittingand being like, I'm sad.
I'm like, I'm I think I'm sad

how do you make that distinction?
Like, is there somewhere in yourbody where things come up for
you or is that hard to connectwith?

It is hard to connect with honestly It has
become a practice where I dohave to take time out of my day
sometimes to just sit for asecond My body will let me know
You often very physically thatit is upset and that's for the

(34:52):
longest time has been myindicator that maybe I'm not
doing great as opposed to mefeeling hurt and being like I'm
hurt.
It'll be like something willhappen and then a couple days
later I have my joints hurt or Ihave all this tension in my body
or like I can't fall asleep andI don't know why like just body

(35:18):
has been the main Communicatorto me that my emotions are off.
We're now I do feel like thatconnection is slowly getting
better um With a lot of work,but it definitely for me it it
truly is work um too It's weird.

(35:39):
I mainly feel it like not justlike in my chest but in my
forearms i've noticed It's sorandom.
I know that sounds so woo woo,but I mean, it's just like, I'll
be sitting and talking aboutsomething like, let's say with a
friend or in a therapy session.
And if there's a section wheresomeone asks a question or maybe

(36:01):
hits a nerve with the emotionI'm feeling, it'll just like
show up in my forearms and mybody and be like, I'm, this is
uncomfortable.

What's the sensation like?

It's like, uh, it just feels like tension.
It just feels like my musclesare tightening.
It's so weird.
It's so weird, but that's howthroughout my whole life, I've
realized what my emotions arethrough sometimes even ending up
with a fever.
When I was a kid, I used to getfevers a lot, randomly, if I

(36:34):
didn't even have any othersymptoms.
Um, So a lot of stuff like that.
It's Ah.
Yes.

you say that as well, because I've heard
sevens, for example, say, youknow, I just feel everything in
my head.
Different areas of my head.

Oh my gosh.

a six who literally said, when I'm angry,
it feels like my ears are hotand my head literally feels hot
or I get a headache if I'mreally upset.

hmm.
Oh my gosh.
So true.
And it's like, that is somethingtoo that I started working on
with my therapist at thebeginning of ERP is she started
to specifically like with OCDshe started asking me, where are
you feeling this in your brain?
Like point to me where you'refeeling like when you're stuck

(37:24):
like fully in a rumination cycleWhere are you feeling it?
And it was crazy because I toldher where I was feeling it and
she pulled up a brain scan of anOCD brain And she's like
literally that's the exact partof your brain that's lit up
during this cycle and I feelthat same way where it's like or

(37:47):
it's similarly to probably aneight or how they talk about
like, they feel anger first andthen underneath the anger, they
uncover, Oh, maybe I'm actuallysad.
I relate to that in some ways.
It's not even that I like feelanger first.

(38:07):
It's just like all of a suddenwith like the tension in my body
or like you said, heat, that'ssuch a huge thing.
Or just all of a sudden out ofnowhere.
Right.
It seems like out

Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.

that I'll be like, Wow, I'm not okay.
I don't even know what theemotion is.
I don't know what's going on,but all of a sudden it'll just
be like, so clear of like, Oh,I'm not, not okay.

Yeah.

That's so, Oh my gosh.
That makes me want to know, whatdo you notice in typing
interviews with heart types,like

Um,

Like, do they, like you said, with the mind types,
they're like going into the backof their brain to find an
answer.
Like how do, how do heart typesapproach?

heart types.
I feel like heart types smile alot more just in general, like
in the typing interview, um,including force, and.
They are more likely to like,try to like, kind of relate, um,
and then like, check forunderstanding

Mm.

A lot of the time heart types will say, well,
like, it kind of depends, butit's not like it depends on the
situation as in the same waythat sixes say, it's more like,
it depends on who I'm with orwho's around or what the real
scenario is.
so like twos, threes, sixes, andnines would say, You know, that
type of answer the most,normally threes, I'd say are

(39:44):
like, Oh, I'm not that in touchwith my emotions.
But then they'll talk aboutinstances when they've been
really hit with emotions, um, ina way that they hadn't before.
And I think that that's becauselike when they kind of slow
down.
We're really emotional.
Um, and then I think that bodytypes to me typically are pretty

(40:05):
grounded.
And honestly, I, I swear theydon't move as much as

Honestly, that makes, wow.
Yeah.

And like, even, you know, if you're going
for a walk with an 8, it's likea race to who walk faster, like,
not intentional, but, um, but Ithink just sitting in the chair,
um, It's more common to seeother types, like moving a lot
more.
I would say, especially likehead types, I think might move a

(40:39):
little bit more.
Um, heart types normally wouldsit more with like their chest
forward.
And I'm realizing now that I'mkind of doing that.
Um, and

And it's funny as you're saying that I'm like
talking to you like this and I'mspinning.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.

And these are all like broad generalizations.
Like I would never basesomebody's type off of that
stuff, but they're just likelittle things that I noticed.
And after you do so many ofthem, you're like, Oh, that's
interesting.
I really, really try though tolook at the, you know, quote
unquote data.
Like I write down everythingthat they say, um, and take a
lot of notes.
So I don't go off of like avibe, right?

(41:19):
I go off of like, what does thissay?
Um, and what can I connect?
And sometimes as I'm goingthrough, I'll, I'll make notes.
Like, I might be like, Oh, SPsix.
Like for example, somebody cameto a typing interview.
She was like, I know I'm a nine.
I just don't know what subtype.
So we did the typing interviewand I was like,

Mm-Hmm.

I think it's possible.
You're a self preservation six.
What do you think about that?
And, you know, and then I wasable to kind of go back and be
like, this is, you know, theevidence and, and that's like
how I'm trained.
Like, it's not like I came upwith this, like, that's how I'm
trained to like, um, approachthat.
But, to show we're not justgoing off of a vibe, right?

(41:58):
Like we're, we have like somebacking.
Um, so.

That's so cool.

Yeah, I never want it to be like, I'm an
expert and then I'm just liketelling you, right?
Because I think it's importantfor you as the client or, um,
You know, it's your journey thatyou have the power in

Mm.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
That's awesome.

So I'm curious to hear a little bit
more about what patterns you seein your daily life as a six, and
especially even if you see fivepatterns too, I know you
mentioned the introversionearlier.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat.

Yeah, um, the main ways I see both five and six,
um, Mm hmm.
Or how I really knew too, thatmy wing was a five wing is I had
my, so one of my closest friendsthat I mentioned to, um, is a
seven and we were having aconversation about something and

(42:57):
she paused in the middle of itand she's like, not to make you
aware of something to like thinkabout after this, but she was
like, you say.
I don't know why, or like, Idon't understand, or I just

(43:17):
don't know why someone wouldthink this, or I don't know why,
like all the time.
She's like, you exist.
It seems sometimes like just notunder.
Like you just don't understand,which isn't always true.
There are a lot of things Idon't understand for sure, but

(43:39):
the way I approach evenconversations is like, it is
really important for me tounderstand and to know why,
whether that's closure orcertainty, or just like feeling
a sense of, I think with thewing five specifically.
Um, I definitely, I have a lotof fears of being depleted in

(44:07):
different scenarios where it'slike I am somewhere and then all
of a sudden I just, I'm going tobe, yeah, I'm out.
And that will keep me, I feellike my wing five and ADHD are
always fighting with each other,to be honest, because my ADHD
will sign me.
Like when I'm having a good day,I'm like executive defunct.

(44:31):
Yes.
Literally.
I'm like, I've really functionedwell today.
I'm going to sign up for a bunchof stuff because I'm going to
be, this is my new normal,probably.
And it never is.
And then especially that wingfive is just like, actually we
are going to disappear.
Um, I greatly need alone time,um, to recharge and to feel like

(44:56):
myself, but also with fives, I,it's interesting cause my
sixness is very much when I likeam researching or questioning
something is very black andwhite with.
Like first impulse very blackand white with what I'm trying
to figure out.
But then I do feel like my wingfive comes to a more neutral

(45:20):
conclusion.
Like the wing five reallyassists me to be neutral

Mm hmm.

and I'm able to, I've noticed that I am able to
look at things without beingattached to them.

Yeah.

and just kind of be like, well, what if, but not
actually be attached to whatcould happen or whatever.
But specifically more with sixtraits, I am loyal to people
that I don't need to be loyalto, or I think about, I, I feel

(45:57):
a sense of obligation to ensurethe safety of other people in
some way, whether it's me beingalmost shielding them, which I
feel like a lot of sixes relateto Defending people a lot and
defending the similarly to eightlike defending the causes that
they're passionate about I alsofeel that way like i'm very

(46:21):
Loyal to also the common goodlike it really When people are
thinking too much about like onespecific group or one specific
thing and not like how theirdecision will affect a broad,
like, what about this group andwhat about this group?
Oh, so annoying, but it, butuseful too.

(46:44):
Um, but I do find myself, myposition in life when I'm
navigating things is how can Iunderstand this?

Yeah.

And it is a desire, that is how I make myself feel
safe, like when I understand Ifeel safe.

Mm hmm.

And then, that's when I realized that more than,
I want to feel safe overall.
I want to feel sure, and I wantto feel certain.
I feel like when I realized thecore desire language, was
thinking about it.
It might have even been you whenyou were posting about like, how
would you reword.

Worst case scenario.

yeah, yeah, worst

The core fear.

Yeah, the core fear.
I found that so interestingwhen, oh, I think one of the
sixes was saying certaintybecause that's, that's it.
It's not just like, oh, I wantto feel safe and I want to
belong.
It's, I want to feel certain.
I have to feel certain to feelsafe.
Yeah.

I think it's so elusive, um, because it's
like perfectionism too, right?
Like, the closer you get, thefurther away it is, um.
And I'm curious if like, evenwhen you do get to that point of
like, I understand, like it'sofficial.
I got it.
I understand.
Does that feel safe?

No.
no.
and that's what I had to come toterms with is when, again, my
desire to understand is what ledme to the Enneagram.
It's what led me to, um, Gettingthe diagnoses that I'd never had
in my childhood and like youngadult life.

(48:22):
It like that drive led me tofind a lot of certainty.
Like when I got those diagnoses,it was like, okay, I, cause
originally I was diagnosed with,other things that I just were
like, I really, I think it'smore than this and again, so
like that desire to understandled me to actual answers, but

(48:44):
once I know, There's alwayssomething.
There's always something,whether it's still related in
that same vein, or I findsomething else to not understand
and like need, it's like, I haveto have certainty in my mind, in
every area of my life to feelsafe and the brief moments where

(49:06):
I've felt certain about X, Y,and Z.
Um, that's when I've realizedlike, Oh, this is a certainty
alone.
Doesn't make me feel safe.
and it might never make me feelsafe, because sometimes you have
all the answers and you couldstill be in an unsafe
environment.

(49:28):
You could still not under,that's a really hard thing for
me to navigate is when I knowsomeone understands and they're
choosing to either make peoplefeel unsafe or choose things
that don't reflect thatunderstanding.

(49:48):
And I feel that way about myselftoo.
And so it just kind of, I juststarted having to unpack, like,
how do I build safety for andwhat does safety actually look
like and what if safety isn'talways, like, again, how am I
defining safety?

(50:09):
I'm defining it as certainty.
Right?
So it's like, yeah, it just kindof reconciling that certainty
doesn't always equal safety andhaving to figure out, okay.
I have to feel, I think that wasthe ultimate end was the
distress I'm avoiding or thepain I'm avoiding by seeking

(50:33):
certainty, similarly to like,when we say a seven like travels
across the globe and it's likegoing on these crazy adventures,
but they're little passport,whatever it is like that
stereotypical view of sevens ofjust like running away.
It's like the pain follows you.
The same thing is for me of as amind type of just like, it
doesn't.
I could be the most certainabout anything, but that didn't

(50:54):
make my pain go away.
It didn't make my heart go away.
It didn't make, even when I gotthe diagnoses, the correct one,
it was like the grief of livingwith something I didn't, that
deeply affected my life, but notknowing that this is what the,
like that grief didn't go away.

Yeah.

I think at the end of the day it was just, I gotta
feel.
I gotta actually feel to getwhere I think I'm trying to go,
I guess.
Yeah.

terrifying that would be as well, because I
think for a lot of sixes, yeah.
Everything you do is organizedto not feel fear.
And so then you confront it headon and it's like, Oh my gosh,
now it's all right there.

Yeah.
Fear, and I think too, and Idon't want to speak for every
six, but for me too, it's, it'salmost not even fear, but
distress.
Like, I will do anything,literally anything, to avoid the
feeling of distress.
Anything.
Um, even the fear of being indistress, that alone will, yeah,

(52:05):
like, dis which maybe I knowfives, like, as well, like, the
feeling of comfort and havingwhat they need, not being taken
from them in some way, like,I've noticed with fives in my
life, but just reading aboutfives too, like, the, the My
husband for a little bit hadthought he was a five.
So we're like reading a lotabout it to figure it out.

(52:26):
And a lot of the five languagespecifically that Beatrice
Chestnut was using was like,you're protecting what you have
almost, it's like you willsacrifice maybe even getting
something better or moreabundant because you don't want
to lose.
This thing that you have and Ifeel like that the discomfort

(52:49):
that could come for that iswhere I also see the wing five
Tangled into this intoorganizing my life to avoid
fear.
It's also Don't want to feellike yeah.
Yeah

like that rug pull

yeah.
Oh my gosh feeling intrudedupon.
Oh no, but not even just like ohsomeone Walked into the room
when I was it's not even thatit's like this Yeah, it's that
feeling of like this is what doyou mean?
Like I don't know just intrusionin any way feels so which is

(53:27):
interesting because and I guessthat's why maybe i'm not Well, I
don't know.
Um I feel like we can Thinkabout fives in a more complex
way, maybe but i'm I wouldn'teven consider myself a private
person like i'm very Open But Isay that in my mind I'm open,

(53:48):
right?
I say that.
I have been told before, too,that like, we got no clue what's
going on.
So, I don't know.
It just depends.
The five and the six and thefive are, they're having a good
time together.

yeah, and I think that I have observed, uh,
self prez sixes, being moreprivate, like a little bit more
sensitive about that.
I've also seen five say, oh, Idon't mind personal questions,
as long as you don't like askwhat type of book I'm reading.
And then I'm like, wait, what?
That's like a small talk to me.
Um, and so I think there's likethat different threshold for

(54:25):
what feels like a personalquestion.

Ooh, oh my gosh.
Wow, I relate to that.
I relate to that.
That's so interesting.
Because that's why I feel likeI'm open, too.
Because it's like, if you ask meanything, but if you do ask me
something probably that seemsmore small talky, um, I'm a lot
more comfortable now sharing.

(54:49):
Stuff like that, but itdefinitely took a while.
Um, but as like with my sixthself, I love I'm such a fan of
things.
I love feeling a part of thegroup um I it is such a blessing
that I did not discover k pop inhigh school.
Oh my gosh the level of loyaltyI have to the things that I love

(55:14):
and like being a fan of things,that would have destroyed me in
high school.
It would have probably changedthe trajectory of my life.
But, now I've realized thatsharing that information, again,
that might be hard of like, whatI'm reading, what I'm watching,
or whatever, is how Iparticipate and feel connected
and I feel like that alwaystrumps me not sharing.

(55:37):
It's like, I'm uncomfortablethat you asked me that, but I
also need to talk about it.
So

Yeah.
Well, I'm so glad to hear yousay that because I'm about to
ask you about what you'rereading

yeah.
Um,

So tell me about a book that has helped you
refreshed you or shaped you inthe last year.

Yeah.
Two books came to mind.
so right before.
The new year I read and finishedLittle Women

Mm

the first time, or I think I read the first, cause
technically it's like two booksin one.
And I think when I was younger,I just read the first one.
So I hadn't read like the fullstory.
that sent me on a whole rabbithole of who Louisa May Alcott
was.
And like, I, the way.

(56:30):
Not only her writing was superinspiring to me and just made me
feel so much, but the way, whathas stuck with me the most about
this book was how genius she is,like, and was, and how ahead of
her time she was.
so jarring when you read it,that like, the things that she

(56:54):
was navigating through andexpressing through this story of
the March Sisters.
I don't know, it's like the bookitself impacted me, but then her
as an author and like the waythat she wrote it and the whole
journey of it has just been, itreally, it definitely refreshed
me and probably is one of myfavorite books of all time now.

(57:15):
Um, and then my only five starread of this year so far.
Has been, which I'm so late tothis train, but tomorrow and
tomorrow and tomorrow byGabrielle Zevin.
Um, that book, it's just such abeautiful story.
And I love, also, I love videogames.
So it was like right in my nicheof just like

Yeah.

gaming, literature, girl who feels different, boy
who feels different, otherfriend, who's perfect in any
every way like I don't know thewhole how she the details in
that story, um I don't alwayslove a book that makes me cry.

(58:00):
I have to be in a very specificmood.
Um But I would allow that bookto Assault me to tears in any
way I think what's really stuckwith me is the last um I was
reading some, like, theconcluding chapter where there's
like a lot of summarizationgoing on and reflection.

(58:22):
I was reading it out loud to myhusband after too and I just, it
was like, uh, just so beautiful.
I, I don't know.
It was so good.
Um, I'm currently reading OnceUpon a Broken Heart, which is a
fun little fantasy darkCinderella retelling.

Oh fun.

Yeah, I'm, I'm, We have a lot of construction going
on in our house right now, soI'm in the escapism

Yeah, for sure.

being a princess in a castle, for

so.
That's amazing.
Okay.
Tell me about a piece of advicethat has really stuck with you.

Yeah, um, I had to think about this one, um, but I
think, um, One of the biggestpieces of advice I was given
very casually, someone just likesaid it to me one day, I think
while I was in high school, um,but just, I was talking about
something that I wasn't sureabout or something that I didn't

(59:24):
know if I wanted to do.
And, the person just in like,again, very casually was just
like, why don't you go afraid?
And that phrase, go afraid, hasdefinitely been a driving force
for me ever since, because Notjust as a six, but as a human,
there's a chance that there's alot of things where I will feel
fear.

(59:45):
Um, I felt fear releasing myfirst book.
I felt fear having a hardconversation with someone.
I felt fear, like it just, thatphrase applies to anything that
you would feel uncomfortabledoing and just, I don't know,
it's definitely motivated,motivated me to be like, I can't

(01:00:05):
wait for the fear to subside.
I can't wait.
Always for sometimes you just dohave to go go afraid.
Um, yeah

Steph Barron Hall (01:00:17):
Yeah.
That's such good advice.
I mean, like you said, for anytype, but especially for a six
and you didn't even know it yet.

Christina W (01:00:23):
I know I was like all these people It's so
interesting when some people canjust truly see right through
Which is a blessing such a hugeblessing whoever if you are that
person We need you.
We need you.

yeah, well, tell us where we can find you,
and then we're going to have youback on to talk a little bit
more about some practicalthings.

Yes.
Um, thank you for having me on.
Um, I'm so, I had so much fun.
Um, and this was such a greatconversation.
Um, I can be found primarily onInstagram at Christina S.
Wilcox.
Um, it's where I do most of myposts about the Enneagram or

(01:01:13):
mental health or you name it.
Um, I do have a new book comingout in July, which is very
exciting.
If you follow me on Instagram,you'll be seeing the cover of it
very soon.
Um, I know I get to leak, leakmy cover, which is so fun.
Um, but besides that, um, I dohave other social media channels

(01:01:37):
that, um, as I mentioned at thebeginning, I still work like
nine to five life.
Um, so keeping up with otherchannels can be a guess, but if
you wanna live for the.
surprise of maybe seeing mesomewhere else.

(01:01:59):
Um, I also have a podcast, um,that I'm currently, um,
revamping, um, that willhopefully, the first re episode
will come out in a couple, um,weeks.
Um, it's called Genuinely CareAbout You.
And it is not specifically aboutDanny Graham.

(01:02:21):
It's a lot of, um, more mentalhealth related, but I also have
a lot of fun.
More essay style podcastsplanned about things I care
about.
Um, so you can find me there.
And then also on YouTube, I dohave a YouTube channel for both

(01:02:42):
the podcast and myself with thesame at, um, and that is also
something I'm trying to, um,make time for.
So again, if you want to besurprised when I upload and be
like, wow, she did it.
You can follow those as well,but primarily Instagram.
Mm

YouTube, is it Christina's Wilcox?

hmm.
Yeah.

Great.
Well, thanks so much for joiningme.
This was so

I know.
It was so fun.
Thank you for having me, and I'mexcited to come back.

Of course.
Thanks so much for listening toEnneagram IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway

(01:03:34):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.

(01:03:54):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify

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Ridiculous History

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Am I a 6? Or is that my OCD? with Enneagram 6, Christina S. Wilcox

On Purpose with Jay Shetty