April 2, 2025 • 55 mins
On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, Stephanie Barron Hall interviews Reverend Nhien Vuong.
Reverend Nhien Vuong, JD, MDiv, is an internationally accredited Enneagram professional with distinction, a certified somatic Enneagram facilitator, and the founder of Evolving Enneagram. She has been studying the Enneagram since 2002, teaching it since 2007, and training other Enneagram professionals since 2017. She holds a juris doctor from Stanford Law School, a master of divinity from Unity Institute and Seminary, and a bachelor of arts in philosophy from the University of California, Irvine.
An ordained interspiritual Unity minister, Nhien marries intellectual rigor with a heart for a more collaborative, compassionate world. Born in wartime Vietnam and raised in the United States, she comes from a family of refugees who built their lives from the ground up. Nhien spiritual companions individuals from diverse backgrounds from around the world. She regularly offers scholarships for Evolving Enneagram’s many transformational programs and donates her time to various nonprofits and the incarcerated. Her extensive experience in pastoral care, community building, and conflict resolution help to foster a world where everyone belongs.
Nhien is the author of the new book, The Enneagram of the Soul: A 40-Day Spiritual Companion for the 9 Types.
Find the full show notes here: https://www.ninetypes.co/blog/tag/podcast+episode
🔗 Connect with Reverend Nhien Vuong!
📷Nhien’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evolvingenneagram/
💻Nhien’s website: https://evolvingenneagram.com/
💻Facilitator Training: https://evolvingenneagram.com/upcoming-events
🎥Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZzOVSVloAGQNX-AJG8Niow
🔗 Connect with Steph!
💻 Stephanie’s Website: https://ninetypes.co/
📷 Stephanie’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ninetypesco
🎥 Stephanie’s Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@stephbarronhall
Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nhien Vuong (00:00):
we're helping to clarify threeness the idea of
(00:04):
wanting to add value to theworld.
Stephanie Barron Hall (00:07):
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (00:08):
Was never equated with this, the more
self-centered description of thethree, only seeking your own,
um, ambition, if you will, butrecognizing that yes, from the
three place of not believing inmy innate value and believing
that I must add value to theworld to be valuable.
(00:29):
So the quest to add value issomething I deeply resonate with
and deeply believe is a three,three-ish thing that yes, can
look like material or othersuccess when seen through the
Western lens.
Stephanie Barron Hall (00:50):
Hello and welcome to Enneagram in Real
Life, the podcast where weexplore how to apply our
Enneagram knowledge in our dailylives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BarronHall, and on today's episode
we're talking about using theEnneagram in a contemplative
way.
So my guest today is ReverendYan Vong and she is a lawyer,
uh, so Juris doctor and MD, andis an internationally accredited
(01:14):
Enneagram professional withdistinction, a certified somatic
Enneagram facilitator and thefounder of Evolving Enneagram.
So I followed her on Instagramfor a while, so, um, that might
be where you've encountered heras well.
She has been studying theEnneagram since 2002, teaching
it since 2007, and trainingother Enneagram professionals
since 2017, she holds a jurisdoctor from Stanford Law School,
(01:37):
a master of Divinity from UnityInstitute and Seminary, and a
Bachelor of Arts in Philosophyfrom the University of
California Irvine.
As an ordained interspiritualunity minister Yen marries
intellectual rigor with a heart,for a more collaborative,
compassionate world.
Born in wartime Vietnam andraised in the United States.
She comes from a family ofrefugees who built their lives
(01:59):
from the ground up, yin is aspiritual companion to
individuals from diversebackgrounds from around the
world.
She regularly offersscholarships for evolving
Enneagrams many transformationalprograms, and donates her time
to various nonprofits and theincarcerated.
Her extensive experience inpastoral care, community
building and conflict resolutionhelped to foster a world where
(02:20):
everyone belongs.
Her brand new book is coming outthis month.
It's called The Enneagram of theSoul of 40 Day Spiritual
Companion for the Nine Types.
And I love this quote from theforeword, which is by Russ
Hudson.
The Enneagram of the Soulinvites us on a journey of
profound self-discovery.
This beautiful book helps usremember that the real and
original Enneagram work helps usshed the concepts of ourselves
(02:43):
and others that no longer serveus, so that we may prepare
ourselves for the mysterious andfantastic changes ahead that we
all know are upon us.
We had a really great timediscussing not only her book,
but also our types.
We share the same Enneagram coretype and subtype.
So Nana and I really chattedabout that and we had a great
conversation, but I also wantedto let you know that, a big part
(03:06):
of Reverend Y's work isactually, um, building community
and helping people to walkalongside each other in
community, with the Enneagram.
So she's offering a two daycertification for people who
want to lead book journeys,meaning it's kind of like a book
club where you're just leadingpeople through the book and it's
very much a contemplativepractice.
She'll talk a lot about thestructure of the book, which is
(03:28):
I think is really helpful anduseful, during our conversation
today.
But this particular event, whereshe's offering the
certification, will be April12th and 13th.
So it's coming up here, so makesure you sign up for that if
you're interested in leadingfriends of yours.
And as I mentioned in her bio,this is very much kind of an
(03:49):
interfaith thing.
So, um, it incorporates allsorts of different practices and
you can be of various differentbackgrounds, like for example,
Zen, Buddhist or Muslim, ormystical Christian, or really
any of those that really have aninterest in contemplative or um,
meditative practices.
So if you'd like to learn moreabout this facilitator training,
(04:11):
you can find it on the EvolvingEnneagram website.
You can also find more about Yinand her book on evolving
Enneagram on Instagram, and Iwill link both of those things
in the show notes.
My final thought for this introbefore we get into the book is,
as I mentioned, yin and I sharethe same type and subtype, and I
think it's just always funnybeing in the same space with
(04:33):
somebody who shares your samesubtype because, You can kind of
get each other and you like,know where each other are coming
from without having to say toomuch.
And so we did say a lot, but um,it was just a really fun and
engaging conversation and I hopethat you really enjoy it.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Reverend
Yin Vong.
(04:54):
Okay.
Well, Nian, welcome to thepodcast.
Nhien Vuong (04:56):
So great to be here.
Thanks for having me, Steph.
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:59):
Let's start with a bit of an
introduction into yourbackground, um, how you found
the Enneagram and how you foundyour type.
Nhien Vuong (05:07):
Oh yes.
Okay.
Well, wow.
Deep dive already.
So I found the Enneagram thesame weekend that I.
Left my husband and left my lawjob in San Francisco.
So I was living in San Franciscoat the time and I basically quit
my life and I was sitting in myone bedroom like studio ish
(05:29):
apartment, and I had.
Purchased a, a stack of booksgoing, you know, I'm gonna
figure this out.
Like, why do I keep messing upmy life?
Um, and one of those books was,uh, understanding the Enneagram
by Don Riso and Russ Hudson,like one of the older Enneagram
books.
And so I look at this book andin it, there's that ready test,
(05:52):
that's R-H-E-T-I, uh, for thosewho are listening.
And, and so I took that online,read the description.
I actually scored highest at thetime.
In three with one just beingbelow it.
And at the time I thought I wasa one, so, so, um.
What happened was, well, Ilooked at both of them, so three
(06:14):
in one were always like up therefor me.
But what happened for me interms of believing I was a type
one at the time was when I readthe description about believing
that there's somethingfundamentally defective about
me.
Like that resonated with.
Like how I felt my entire life.
Like I felt like I wasconstantly reading books and
(06:36):
looking for like, what's wrongwith me?
Like what's wrong with me, thatI don't know how to be happy,
what's wrong with me, that otherpeople seem happy with these
things and I'm not, you know?
And then so there was thisconstant trying to like.
Fix myself and fix myenvironment.
And so that felt very one-ish atthe time.
And I remember when I read thatdescription in contrast to the
(06:58):
three description, which I feltlike was probably more social
subtype three, a little bit morewhite male in the description at
the time.
Right?
Like, so when I read the one, Icried for the type one.
I mean, I cried.
I wasn't a crier back then.
I was an attorney back then.
I was not a crier.
And I cried for like.
The afternoon and then I calledmy ex-husband and apologized.
(07:22):
So I was like, oh, I'm sorrythat I've never been sorry, our
whole relationship because likeI had this like need to be
right.
So there are all theserevelations that happened in
that moment, but the idea thatthere was this system that
could, that was telling me that,that your personality.
Things like you're defective,but you're more than your
(07:46):
personality.
Like this idea that like you'remore than that.
And I had never really beenexposed to that idea before,
like that, what, what if I'm notbroken?
Like that was the beginning ofplanting a seed in me that would
just begin to blossom and growover the years.
But that was my, like, that wasmy entry into the Enneagram.
(08:07):
And then.
From there?
Oh, should I, I wanna make sureI answer your question.
Okay.
So you wanna go to like how itcame to be here in this moment?
Okay, so, so that at the time,by the way, because I am a Unity
minister, at the time, I didn'tbelieve in God in spirituality
at all.
(08:28):
Like if anything, I was a devoutatheist.
I'd been.
Seeking my whole lifephilosophically, again, reading
tons of books, but nothingresonated with me.
So when I first found theEnneagram, I was using it
totally psychologically, like,oh my gosh, I understand this, I
understand you.
Life is getting better.
This is great.
And then two years later, I hita bottom in my life and I have
(08:52):
a, what I call my spiritualawakening.
And the bottom was basically a.
A point at which I was like,this is my relationships.
Weren't working.
Uh, I had no friends at thetime, which people are like
mind-boggling for people whoknow me today.
I had, I was so incrediblylonely.
(09:13):
All I had was my partner, myboyfriend at the time, never got
along with any of my boyfriends.
It was just a nightmare.
And then I was estranged from myfamily.
So this is a pretty extremestory, you know, and, but when I
hit bottom, it was just sort oflike.
Wow.
I think I'm smart, but I can'tdo this.
I of my own accord can't figureout my life how to.
(09:35):
And so that moment of am I opento another way?
And that opening was thebeginning of me.
Also meditating and meditationwas this.
Weird thing that people weredoing in Northern California.
Right.
And I remember the first time Iwas in, oh, so I hit bottom.
I started a 12 step program.
(09:56):
I went into one of these 12 stepprograms and they were
meditating.
And I remember I was like theone peeking to see like if it's
two people have their eyesclosed, you know, all the
things.
And so at that point, as I beganto.
Really feel the truth of thispromise of wholeness from the
(10:17):
inside out.
Like that began to changeeverything, and then that's
when.
The Enneagram, which was overhere.
Kind of like the understandingof that and then the felt direct
experience of like my wholeness.
And then from that place myconnection to other people like
(10:38):
it.
Like, oh, I was striving forthat connection before when I
didn't realize, like from withinme, I feel more connected to you
because I feel more caringtoward you because there's
something inside me that islike.
Connected to all that is, youknow, that like going within
rather than going without,right.
For, for that knowing, if youwill.
(10:59):
That's the beginning and thenI'll say happened to be a
relationship where I took thecertification training with
Helen Palmer narrative, uh, inthe narrative tradition in 2006,
I believe long time ago.
So.
That was the beginning of myentree into like formal
Enneagram training, and I'd saythe rest is history.
(11:23):
I'm happy to talk more aboutwhat I do today, but that's kind
of the backstory to thebeginnings of how that emerged.
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:29):
Sure.
I, I resonate with a lot of thethings that you've said and as
we've kind of chatted about, um,we share the same subtype and so
that makes sense.
But it's also interesting tohear how.
You had these different pathsand then it sounds like you were
kind of tapping into like theholy idea of the type three and
like really opening the heartcenter of the type three.
(11:51):
Um, which my teachers say thatthrees are the most emotional
type because the heart of theheart center, but we just turn
it off
Nhien Vuong (11:59):
Mm
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:00):
until we really do our work.
Right.
Nhien Vuong (12:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's so precious.
Yeah, absolutely.
In fact, in my family, um.
I was the crier in the family,you know, and I realized that
early on, people, you know, mysiblings would walk by.
I mean, uh, you know, again, wefled a war and it was like,
nobody is like sad or something.
And I'd be crying in the roomand they'd be like, why is she
still crying?
And I just Shut it down.
(12:23):
Shut it down.
And yeah, well, it clearlydidn't go anywhere, but, but
yeah, the heart, the heart ofthe heart types.
I love that.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:31):
And I think there is this type three
piece of.
Doing what everyone has alwaystold you to do.
Like this is how you can besuccessful, become an attorney,
Nhien Vuong (12:43):
Right?
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:44):
get this high powered job, and then
hitting this like rock bottomwhere you're like, this is not
it.
I don't know.
What is it though?
I just know it's not this.
Nhien Vuong (12:54):
yes, yes.
And and, and to that point, Iremember now looking back.
Seeing Threeness, it's so clearnow looking back, because even
the way I described my bottom, Ididn't describe it as, oh, I was
so sad, so despairing.
I was like, I was completelyhollow.
It was like I was, I collapsedin on the hollowness inside of
(13:14):
me is how I described it.
That's what it felt like, that Iwas so hollow.
And it was like, but you'reworking so hard.
You, how could you be so empty?
You know?
And, and, and, and it just like,it was like numbness.
It wasn't, it wasn't so muchdrama.
It was like just.
Nothing but the despair of thatnothingness inside myself, um,
(13:36):
to lead to a journey of thendiscovering it's because, and
you've been seeking it outsideyourself, you know, mainly
through relationships, mainlythrough a very three-ish way of
being seen.
And I love chatting with afellow like sexual three, which
I don't know that like I namedthat earlier.
But, uh, the sexual piece oflike being.
(13:58):
Wanted, like, like, and not justwanted, but maybe even put on a
pedestal.
Like, to be honest, right?
Like, because if you're not likeup there, you're nobody.
That was like the feeling, ifI'm not like that great or that
amazing to you, to this veryparticular person, um, then, you
know, I'm nobody.
(14:19):
And, and yeah, I couldn't havearticulated it back then, but
that was just the compulsion tostay.
In relationship, in unhealthyrelationships, you know, um,
yeah.
To, to meet that need and, andthen to find out that, you know,
I didn't focus on do I like you,are you interesting to me?
(14:42):
No.
Do you want me?
Okay.
That is the barometer.
How much you want me is okay,we're doing it.
We're being a relationship.
Right.
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:50):
Yeah, I can merge with you.
Yeah.
Nhien Vuong (14:54):
Yeah.
So amazing.
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:57):
Were there any kind of like aha
moments when you were figuringout, okay, I'm not a one, I'm a
three.
Like, what was that like, like.
Nhien Vuong (15:05):
Yeah, well it took an embarrassingly long time.
I will say.
I mean, only in the last severalyears and I've been teaching the
Enneagram for years.
Um, so what happened was, ofcourse we know that ones in
threes behaviorally are verysimilar.
They're rational competencytypes.
(15:26):
They can both work really hard,uh, and.
What we don't, I think a lot ofpeople don't realize about
threes is that depending on yourbackground, you can be very
perfectionistic.
So that description of cuttingcorners never resonated because
I was like, we don't cut cornershere.
Not in my house.
You know?
(15:46):
And so, so over time though,this inner.
Journey of self-compassion, ofcontemplation, centering prayer
is my primary spiritualpractice.
It's just a practice of selfemptying over time.
And then more so in recentyears, well first I started to
(16:08):
feel more whole.
I started to feel more loving,um, and only in say the last
four years.
I felt like this inner criticthat was heavy and mean and
bullyish my entire life was likealmost.
Just physically, almost likephysically gone from my
shoulders.
(16:28):
It was so bizarre.
And I had this thought that manyEnneagram teachers talk about,
which is people mistype whenthey're like, oh yes, I'm really
this type, but I'm so evolvednow.
I'm not like that.
And I'm like, BS you.
And I was like, you're.
Evolve, but you're not soevolved that you suddenly have
no inner critic.
Like, like, so that feeling thatwas pressing upon me was gone.
(16:50):
And, and so in thatspaciousness, I began the
inquiry again of maybe, maybeI'm not a one after all.
And it wasn't until I actuallyread Hamid Ali's, uh, his
pending's, ah, Alma's book, keysto the Enneagram, where he talks
about the three as wanting.
To live the model life and I'mlike, boom.
(17:12):
I have been talking about thismy whole life.
I'm like, if every I wanna livethe life that if everybody lived
as I lived the world would be abetter place.
That was, that was my goal mywhole life.
And this idea that it was notrelegated to oneness that that
what I equated as oneness in, inthis like idealized self was
(17:34):
also could also be seen as thewanting to live a model life,
right?
And yes, with the nuance of, andyeah, you need to be sexy and
attractive too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:45):
Right, of course.
Nhien Vuong (17:47):
Like you can't lose that.
Like you need to be all that,but like.
While keeping attractiveness,you know, thank God I'm a little
older now.
I'm like, screw it.
But, but you know, but in myearlier years especially, it
was, it was rough.
Yeah.
And so when I, I felt like thatresonated.
And the other thing I wanna add,and I think maybe the two of us
(18:08):
together, it feels like it cancreate that space where we're
helping to clarify threeness theidea of wanting to add value to
the world.
Stephanie Barron Hall (18:19):
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (18:20):
That I only thought of as the one's idealism of
doing good, right?
Was never equated with this, themore self-centered description
of the three, only seeking yourown, um, ambition, if you will,
but recognizing that yes, fromthe three place of not believing
in my innate value and believingthat I must add value to the
(18:44):
world to be valuable.
So the quest to add value issomething I deeply resonate with
and deeply believe is a three,three-ish thing that yes, can
look like material or othersuccess when seen through the
Western lens.
Right?
Yeah.
A lot of nodding.
So,
Stephanie Barron Hall (19:04):
Yeah.
I, I mean, I think like theconcept of I wanna be admirable,
I wanna be impressive.
Like, those feel really core tothe three motivation, I'd say.
Um, and that feels reallyaligned with like, wanting to be
the model, you know, wanting tobe, it's almost like threes
wanna be.
(19:25):
The prototype of like, this ishow to live a good life.
Um, and that, that does resonatefor sure.
I think another big piece forthrees is that sense of
hollowness and emptiness thatyou mentioned, um, of, of this
real fear that beneath thefacade there's nothing there.
Nhien Vuong (19:46):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (19:47):
and so like the, the desire to add
value, right?
But also the steep fear of like,okay, I'm actually empty inside.
That feels like it reallyresonates, and I don't know if
that does resonate for ones.
I'm trying to think of peopleI've done typing interviews with
and I don't feel like I've heardthat theme as much.
Nhien Vuong (20:06):
hmm, hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a great point.
Um, I think that that's accurateand, um, yeah, and, and just
related to that, uh, emptinessor the, the fear of.
Being fully empty, if you will,fully empty.
Uh, that emptiness is the firstthing encountered.
(20:29):
And the willingness to persistwith the emptiness without
having to fill it withaccomplishments or validation.
You know, that's the beginningof the healing.
Right.
You know, so the, to persist inthat emptiness and, and the
devastation of that emptiness,you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
(20:49):
So.
Stephanie Barron Hall (20:50):
how did you find your subtype?
Because again, that can be sochallenging, and I think
especially the sexual threesubtype can be a really tricky
one to land on.
Nhien Vuong (21:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I'll start by saying I'vebeen wrong before, so I could be
wrong again.
You know, I mean, legitimately,right?
Like I'm super open.
Uh, and, but I think that I, Imean, I look back and.
First of all, I identify with somany of the descriptions of the
(21:21):
sexual energy being aboutchemistry.
The ability to go in and justfeel the room and, you know,
where's the juice that thatpiece is.
So like, that's how I, I'venavigated life, right?
Um, unconsciously, until Ilearned about that and.
And yes, sexual competitiveness.
(21:41):
Like I think that if I were toweigh, knowing that social is my
second, but recognizing I'mlike, you know, I, for, I have
let go of opportunities in thatrealm.
Uh, you know, in favor ofrelationship time and time
again, in favor of desirabilityto particular people time and
time again.
(22:02):
Even understanding that, thatthe sexual dominant is more
likely to dress.
In, in a more unique way, uh,for the desired partner, even if
it doesn't fit the norm.
Like, like versus a socialdominant who might be more
inclined to just fit the norm,you know, be excellent within
(22:25):
that norm, but, but blended.
It more blend in more than thanthe way that I think I'm
constituted.
Yeah.
So I think that's the piece forme.
Um, also, even.
Again, there's so many differenttheories about the instincts,
but I really resonate, uh, withwhat Mario Kora says about what
(22:48):
he calls the transmittinginstinct for the what he equates
to the sexual instinct that manypeople call the sexual instinct.
Oh, and by the way, that thenarrative judicial sometimes
calls one-to-one instinct, andI.
Wholeheartedly disagree withthat characterization.
You know?
Because I was like, who?
Someone clearly was not a sexualDominic who, who named it that
(23:10):
way?
Right.
But that said, the transmittingpiece was like, it's almost like
you're, you, you transmit, lookat me and then listen to me,
look at me, listen to me likethat, that I resonate with for
sure.
As a way of being in the world.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (23:26):
Yeah, and I think that it's such a good
description.
And also I really think a lotabout like, um, polarities with
the sexual instinct where it'slike off and on, like.
All in, all out, you know, orthere is like the merging,
right?
Um, with that desired otherperson.
But there's also this thing thatI don't necessarily see in a lot
(23:49):
of other threes, which ispicking at conflict in a way
that a lot of threes are a bitmore averse to.
And so sometimes like with myhusband, he's like, why do you
have to just go againsteverything I say now?
I mean, I'm kind of like, well,you're a six so you do the same
thing.
But like there is this kind ofpart of me that's like Uhuh
Nhien Vuong (24:13):
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (24:14):
and when I teach it in corporate,'cause I
don't use sexual when I teach incorporate.
Right.
But I use the term spark.
Um,'cause I feel like again,that's like what we're after,
right?
Is like, let's just find aspark.
Nhien Vuong (24:26):
yes, yes.
Even as you were talking, I was,I was like, and we were talking
about, uh, a certainrelationship with conflict, a
little more comfort.
I was like, I've alwaysdescribed it as like, yeah, I'm
fiery.
Like, like I, you know, I, I, Iteach love in this, but like, I
don't mind fire.
Like, I don't mind that, um,aliveness.
(24:47):
That is equated, you know, with,um, yeah.
Sometimes with conflict and so,so yeah, like I don't, I don't
lean back when, when conflictcomes, I lean forward into it
for sure.
Yeah.
So it's interesting to hear thatin you as well.
Um,
Stephanie Barron Hall (25:03):
Yeah, I think it's interesting, but, but
there's also like the weird,like, let's merge, but let's
not, you know what I mean?
That piece too,
Nhien Vuong (25:12):
Yeah, that is really interesting.
Um, I think that, well, I mean,we could go into a whole
conversation about like, uh,some of the work I do one-on-one
with people in, um, in buildingup their repressed instinctual
center like.
You know, as I worked on withmyself, like there's no way I
(25:32):
would have my company evolvingEnneagram had I not worked on my
self preservation blind spot.
Like, steadiness was never mything.
I was in, and then I was out in,and then I was out.
I, I was such a lever most of mylife.
Like, I initiate and, and ofcourse I know that you have
self, pre middle, so there maybe a little different energy
(25:53):
there, you know, but for methat's, that's what that looked
like a lot.
Like the, there was no.
Reverence for any kind ofinfrastructure.
For most of my life, I had to.
Cultivate the capacity to, atfirst bear it, like, at this, it
wasn't like a like, welcome it,it was like bearing it and
(26:14):
feeling my discomfort and whatthat is like.
And then having that begin to,to change me to where things
that are more, um, routine ormundane or administrative now
have become sort of more likeacts of devotion.
That used to be burdens and, andyeah.
And so the capacity to stay topersevere, that is not often
(26:40):
present in the, the sexualdominance.
Right?
Like that, that has increasedsubstantially over time, but
very through a lot of likeintentionality, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Stephanie Barron Hall (26:55):
Yeah, and I think that's one of the things
that can differentiate the oneand three, right?
Because the other day I was.
On a podcast, and the one said,slow and steady wins the race.
And I was like, that is not agear that threes have.
Like maybe, maybe a, maybe selfpress three sometimes.
But there's still like, it's notslow and steady.
(27:16):
It's like, let's get it done.
Let, let's go for it.
Let's do it all today.
You know?
Nhien Vuong (27:21):
Slow and steady.
Yeah.
I've never thought that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (27:24):
No.
Nhien Vuong (27:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So interesting.
I'll, I'll jump in and say thatmy fir my reaction to that
statement.
Also slow and steady, like.
All my whole practice now isslowness, like contemplation is
spaciousness.
Right?
And I would say that even likethe idea that there's a race
starts to dissolve, like, youknow, but, but yeah, so just
(27:49):
looking at that old, thatparadigm, I'm like, oh, and it's
no longer a race because whereare we going?
But aren't we here?
You know, like, yeah.
Yeah.
So interesting.
Stephanie Barron Hall (28:02):
So I think that's a great segue to
talk about your book some.
So it's the Enneagram of theSoul a 40 day spiritual
companion for all nine types.
Nhien Vuong (28:12):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (28:12):
So tell me about your book and what
inspired you to write it.
Nhien Vuong (28:16):
Oh my goodness.
Okay, so, so.
Oh, where do I start?
My book has nine practices, nineprinciples, nine prayers, and
then 40 activations.
It also has a little Enneagramprimer that focuses on like the,
uh, our types of relationship tothe holy idea as well as like
(28:38):
our soul gifts.
Um, so, so I guess I'll startthere by saying like, what it is
and then what inspired me?
Uh uh, so the idea like.
I'm a Unity minister.
Unity has this very likeholistic, non-dual, uh,
perspective on who we are sayingthat we are not born in original
(28:59):
sin, but instead born inoriginal blessing.
Born whole and perfect exactlyas we are.
And, and then from thatperspective, you know, there's
this idea that life is a fallingasleep to.
That divine wholeness of, andjust like the self forgetting at
0.9 and, and then the waking upto oneness though isn't just
(29:25):
okay, we're all one like thisamorphous oneness, but instead
the idea is that we move from.
Personality being identifiedwith personality to then
something called individuality,which is the self that knows it
is one with all that is, butstill has the uniqueness of the
(29:47):
gifts of your type, you know, sothat you are living from this
place of knowing what, what is,what undergirds us and what is
behind us.
What is within us is thisspirit.
Spirit is love, is light.
And yet.
There's a purpose to Enneagramtype.
We don't completely abandon it.
(30:07):
We definitely don't reject ordemonize it, but rather it be,
it comes into service to thewhole, to that wholeness, into
that oneness.
And so this book is really aimedto invite people into.
That consideration, uh, of whatEnneagram inner work can be for,
(30:30):
and then also to offer a paththat is.
Interspiritual or spirituallyopen?
Uh, I've noticed that there weremany devotionals that are
Christian, fundamentalChristian, and I hope that this
book actually invites everybodyright.
You know, so is inclusive ofthat, but that.
(30:50):
These devotionals don't alalways resonate if like Bible
scripture does, may not alwaysresonate.
Like I quote from Buddhistteachers and from Sufi, uh,
mystics like Rumi.
And, and that is true to my ownjourney.
The truth of my journey is thatI've been deeply informed by
diverse, spiritual and religiouspaths, and I wanted to offer a
(31:14):
companion guide for others whomight be feeling more on their
own out there.
In that path as well.
Yeah.
So, so that's the heart of it.
And then practically speaking,um, unlike some devotionals that
are only like for your number,this one has the 40 activations
(31:37):
include descriptions for each ofthe types.
Um, so I have found that when Ifirst published some of these on
Instagram, oh, to go back to howit was inspired.
Okay.
I've been wanting to write abook for centuries and then I
would set aside Friday.
Nothing would happen.
It was so frustrating, so hard.
And then, um, one day one of myclients asked me to write some
(32:00):
affirmations for some big eventthey were having.
And it was late in the game.
They asked for it.
I wrote them.
They're like, oh my God, we lovethem.
We're so sorry.
We, um, it's, it's like too lateto submit them.
But then I saw them and I sentthem to some of my faculty and
they were like.
These are good.
I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And then for 90 straight days,somehow I wrote 90 of these like
(32:25):
daily activations.
I mean, it took like four hoursa day.
I don't even know.
It just came from nowhere.
So I started putting them onInstagram.
I wasn't even really onInstagram.
And then people were like, oh,when I first put them out,
someone asked.
Oh, these are good.
What, what book did you get themfrom?
Or like, who wrote them?
I was like, I, I'm like, whowrote them?
(32:46):
I better put my name on it.
It was so funny.
And then, but then the otherthing was people were like, is
there a book?
And I'm like, oh, this is mybook.
Like here I was working overthere and like.
Duh.
This is the book that I'm meantto write.
And, and so it came togetherlike that.
The reason I bring up the nineis people were starting to read
(33:08):
them all, not just their own,and it created a, a spaciousness
of perspective for people, uh,that was different from just
reading your own.
And then people were readingthem to their neighbors during
Covid, and I was like.
Oh, this is meant for communityand, and yeah.
So, so that piece of like whatinspired it, but also how it was
(33:33):
a very almost like collaborativejourney of how the whole
universe is like telling me whatneeds to happen for this, what's
needed.
Right.
And, and so that's kind of howthe book emerged.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (33:47):
Wow, that feels very, in touch with like
the higher level of type three,like thinking about the holy
ideas and you know, the virtueand everything.
that it kind of came about.
It wasn't like, I'm gonna justset this goal and go for it.
It was like it just entered.
Nhien Vuong (34:06):
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:07):
Yeah.
Nhien Vuong (34:07):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:09):
That's beautiful.
and you talk in your book aboutdiscovering your divine nature
through the lens of theEnneagram,
Nhien Vuong (34:15):
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:16):
and I'm wondering if you can share more
about what that means.
Nhien Vuong (34:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so when I teach theEnneagram and what I talk about
in the book is I actually preferthat people not start with the
nine, but with the one, thecircle of the Enneagram, and
really meditate on this notionthat the circle represents our
wholeness.
And for me, and it doesn't haveto be for everyone.
(34:40):
You can benefit from the bookeven if you don't believe that.
But, but my belief is that, uh,that circle represents our
divine nature.
That, that we are intrinsicallyone with the divine.
And so really it's open the,when I talk about opening to our
divine nature, I'm just reallytalking about opening to our
authentic nature, right?
(35:01):
Like what is true.
And, but if you look at thecircle.
You can see that all of thetypes sit at the circumference
of the circle.
And just like if you are a waveon the edge of the ocean, right,
like you're not.
In the depths of your being,coming from the depths of your
(35:22):
being.
And it's not just the threesthat are superficial in this
way, right?
That no, none of us when weoperate from personality are
operating from the totality anddepth of our whole essence.
And so, so the practice isrecognizing how personality is a
doorway, a portal, um, anopening.
(35:43):
It's like it gives us a clue,you know, into that.
Uh, divine, uh, the fullerdivine nature, and, and so
learning about our Enneagramtype can help us to do that.
But the activations are designedto offset the pool of type, the
gravitational pool of type.
(36:03):
Toward the circumference, towardacting out the habit of type and
staying just right there.
Yeah.
So each of the invitations aredesigned to consider another way
of showing up that maybe thetype says No way, right?
Like, how does the three everget to stop?
Right to allow like space forsomething else to emerge, you
(36:25):
know, without calling ourselveslazy or, you know, like the, you
know, that kind of thing.
And, and recognizing that, howdoes the two ever learn to, um,
to say no, to not give, to knowwho they are with, without that
relationality of giving.
So that's, that's the hope forthe book that, that each.
(36:46):
Person by entering through theirtype might get even a glimpse of
a part of their rejectedwholeness, right?
Rejected by the type and have,uh.
Space and invitation andcompanionship through the book
to open to that wholeness morefully.
(37:07):
Yeah.
And so there are practices inthe book as well to help those
nine practices are designed forsupporting, uh, the, the 40 INTA
activations.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (37:19):
I love this perspective too, because I.
I mean, spirituality is, is achallenge for me.
just because I came out of oneof those, you know, more, um,
high control religiousenvironments.
And so it can be so challengingthen to regain some perspective
(37:40):
on spirituality that like onceyou leave that of like, okay,
well now how do I get in touchwith this?
Um, and so through doing workaround actually like.
H almost is teachings likefacets of unity and the keys to
the Enneagram.
There is this intrinsic conceptof like, well, we have to have
some sort of connection to thespiritual in order to
Nhien Vuong (38:02):
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hal (38:02):
understand these concepts at all.
Right?
But there's this innatespirituality to it that, um, we
have to be able to, tounderstand and recognize.
And I really like your vision ofwhat that looks like, because it
can be so challenging to havelike a concept of what that,
that could mean outside of, um,you know, some of the more,
Nhien Vuong (38:23):
Establish like dogma religion.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, thank you.
And, and.
You know, the idea that for me,I believe our most authentic
teaching is, you know, we teachwhat we most need to learn and
we teach what we needed.
And I know for me, questing,since I was a little girl, for
(38:44):
like the meaning of life andhaving no help in that, um, and
not really believing most ofthe.
Religious books that I read, Iwas like, okay, well half the
population never had a chance toknow about this God you're
talking about.
And so, you know, it was like,is it fair?
You know, my grandpa has neverheard and is he going to hell?
(39:04):
Right?
Like, like that, that was hardfor me.
And, and there was no support.
I've had people.
Tell.
I remember one time I wasactually really stressed about
not finishing the book, and Ihad a woman tell me, you know,
yin, you don't even realizebefore you, I didn't even know
you could be spiritual but notreligious.
I was like, what?
You know, like, whoa.
I mean, I, I thought most peopleknew that, but it's like
(39:26):
there's, there are all thesepeople who don't know that yet.
I'm like, yes, there's space forthis.
When we know that there's adirect connection that we have
to this, this allness of being.
Right?
Yeah.
So, and the tricky part I thinkin all of my work in the
community that I hold, which isalso interspiritual, is I hold
(39:47):
my integrity when I speak in Istatements of like what I
believe.
But what I believe doesn't needto be what you believe.
And the reason for that is it sohappens to be that what I
believe is that you arefundamentally divine no matter
what you think or believe,right?
So, so it doesn't matter.
I don't need to convince you tobelieve something in order for
(40:09):
you to be divine.
And if I'm not holding yourdivinity, that's my problem.
That's my lack of seeing.
Yeah, that's not a lack ofyours.
It's that I'm not connected tothe Holiness.
And so that's my practice, uh,on an ongoing basis and how I
hold space for differences inother people.
Right.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:30):
Yeah.
That's so beautiful.
Um, I'm wondering if you couldshare one or two practices from
your book that you might findbeneficial for us to incorporate
in our daily lives, especiallyif we're a bit newer to this
kind of form of spirituality.
Nhien Vuong (40:46):
Mm mm Yeah.
So.
One practice.
So, so I do have nine practiceslisted in the book, but I want
to share one that's not in thenine that I hope just permeates
the book.
And it might sound like overly,I don't know, loosey goosey or
(41:06):
woowoo, but I mean it when I saythat.
For me, compassion as a.
Practice has probably been themost transformational thing that
I've seen in myself and in otherpeople.
And I say that carefully becauseour society has confused things
like self-care.
(41:28):
Oh, self-care.
You know, this is bubble bathnights.
Everybody, you know, like, youknow, or self care like, is
maybe indulging in things thatare not life giving because it
feels like I'm treating myself.
So, and sometimes compassioncan, can be applied to be like,
oh yes, well it doesn't matterthat I did that.
That's okay.
It's, it's something deeper thatI mean, that says, wow, in this
(41:51):
moment I can't forgive thisperson.
And the old me might have beenjudgmental.
Toward myself that I am notthere yet.
And somehow compassion is acircle that becomes larger, that
holds my unforgiveness, holds mywillingness to forgive is
something like making space forwhat is and what's true in me
(42:14):
right now.
And I've noticed that when.
My clients, when my communitymembers apply that to what is
happening for them, then theshift they've been waiting for,
they're like whole lives startsto happen, right?
And, and something softens and,and becomes like open, right?
(42:36):
It's almost like if you thinkabout.
You know, Enneagram, literallyas a fixation.
It's like the, the fix thatfixation is so constricted,
right?
And then compassion doessomething like that.
Wow.
This little space here.
And in that space, something Imight call spirit or divine love
flows.
(42:57):
And that is the thing that endsup transforming the person.
Right?
And so, so that's the, it'salmost like I.
I repeatedly tell people thatI'd rather you not know the
Enneagram than apply theEnneagram without compassion.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:14):
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (43:15):
Yeah.
So that's, that's one practice.
I could share another that's alittle, maybe a little more
concrete too.
It's up to you.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:23):
Well, I do love that one, but if you'd
like to share another, I'm surewe'd love to hear it.
Nhien Vuong (43:28):
So, oh my God, how do I pick?
So from, from the, from thenine, the one that keeps jumping
out is the welcoming practice.
Yeah.
So.
Uh, the welcoming practice,well, of course it's all in the
book, but like the shortcut is,the short version is if you have
a triggering feeling, uh, todrop step one, drop into the
(43:49):
feeling as a sensation in yourbody.
You know, first as a step towelcome it by allowing it to be
received.
Like, oh, maybe the feeling ofanxiety is actually like bubbly
stuff in my belly, you know, tojust have space for that.
Then step two, and this is aspiritual element, uh, is.
As you welcome this sensation,you welcome in the presence of
(44:13):
spirit by whatever name it couldbe welcoming love.
And from a Buddhist perspective,I think, uh, Cynthia Brazeau,
who's talked about this prayerhas said it's almost as if when
you welcome in that presence,maybe your anxiety was a little
like tight.
Bright red dot and now you'veput it into an ocean of
(44:35):
awareness.
And so with little red.in anocean, what is that like?
So welcoming in spirit.
Step two.
And then step three is arelease.
A release, the need for power orcontrol over this feeling or
situation.
I released the need for approvalor esteem around this feeling or
(44:56):
situation.
I released the need for securityor certainty around this feeling
or situation.
I released the need to changeanything about this feeling or
situation, and I released theneed to change anything about
myself.
And so that prayer is like awelcoming of what is that?
(45:16):
Paradoxically, just likecompassion actually allows this
experience to move through us,to not get stuck, to not cause
reactivity, but it starts toclear to me it's an act of deep
self-compassion and love to, tonot reject what we're
experiencing in any moment.
(45:37):
And then, but also a, asubmitting of it to something
bigger than ourselves.
I think that's a piece of it aswell to understand.
Then I realized that as I'vepracticed this, if I'm allowed
to feel anything, right, if Ihave space to feel anything,
then I'm free.
(45:59):
Right.
Uh, then I'm spiritually free tolive my full potential.
Because there were moments,there was a moment when I left
church ministry to foundevolving Enneagram, where I was
terrified.
I was like, I don't, I don'tknow.
And I remember thinking, oh,it's because you want the
guarantee that you'll succeed.
You want the guarantee that ifyou leave.
And I was like, if I'm preparedto fail to feel that, then I am
(46:20):
free.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:21):
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (46:22):
Oh, you know, that's, that's my ongoing
practice.
So everything I put in the book,I practice.
This?
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:31):
Yeah.
And I think something that I'vejust noticed is, um, it's not to
say that like I'm free to feelanything, and so who cares?
But it's also, you mentionedearlier like, okay, I'm really
drawing upon this self presinstinct to be consistent and to
like be uncomfortable with thatand to build these, you know,
(46:55):
consistencies and, and all ofthose things.
And, and so it's not like.
Jumping in, okay, I have toapply this extreme rigidity or I
have to apply this extremepermissiveness.
Like there is that compassionand taking care of yourself and
the community and the work thatyou're wanting to do.
Um, holding both.
Nhien Vuong (47:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
And, um, in what you spoke to,uh, why I have a, uh, it's a
love hate relationship with likesocial media posting about
Enneagram, which, you know, likekind of like.
Things taken out of context,things in, you know, these,
these little soundbite ways ofsaying, oh my God, free, okay,
I'm gonna be free.
(47:37):
I do anything I want.
You know, kind of, you know.
But like in the context, I thinkabout like the whole book and
what it's designed to support,which is if you, if we really go
within.
Like, like, can we trust thatwhat is within is deeply good?
That, that what is withinpurifies and, and that is
different from the personality.
'cause I, I hear sevens, youknow, behind what you're saying,
(47:58):
free, you know, like, I justdon't wanna, want, want fun, you
know, kind of.
But the seven going in, like,there's a steadiness, the
sobriety, the virtue of theseven that shifts.
There's a groundedness thatwhere, you know, what's that
song?
The freedom's just another wordfor nothing left to lose, you
know?
The seven doesn't ever get topossess any moment of life.
(48:19):
Ever get to really have anymoment when the compulsion of
the types need for, um,unlimitedness causes them to not
be free to actually
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:30):
Settle in.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (48:33):
To savor, to, to be here actually, ever.
To have the moment and, and so,so that opening to a larger
notion of what freedom means,you know?
Yeah.
So vital.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, okay.
If our listeners are listening,and I'm sure they're loving
this, um, where can they findyou and connect with you?
Nhien Vuong (48:56):
Yes.
Um, evolving enneagram.com.
Um, and also now that I'm anauthor, I have my own author
website, so that's Nien,N-H-I-E-N, hyphen VUON g.com as
well.
So, um, and of course, and allmy, all my.
Social media is, is evolvingenneagrams, so yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:19):
All of that will be linked up in the
show notes and your book iscalled, the Enneagram of the
Soul.
Nhien Vuong (49:25):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:26):
So I will definitely link that and I am
really looking forward togetting it as well.
Um, but before I let you go, Ihave two final questions that I
ask everyone.
Nhien Vuong (49:35):
Okay.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:36):
So the first one is, tell me about a
book that has helped you refreshyou or shaped you in the last
year.
Nhien Vuong (49:46):
So there have been many books in the past year, but
the book that I think, um, is,was meant.
For me to help me meet thismoment of life the most is
Sapiens.
Um, it's a brief history ofhumankind by Yuval Noah Harra.
(50:07):
I hope I'm pronouncing the nameright, like rad.
I mean, I mean this person'slike religion is just the myth,
you know?
So, like, as a minister, like,but I, I felt like it was so
important to read this.
The reason it feel so importantfor me is number one.
I'm not great at history, so itwas really good to really get
this overview of how thingsdeveloped over time.
(50:28):
But one thing that he said thatreally struck me was this idea
that even.
Everything we create is based onmyth, like that money, right?
As soon as we stop valuingmoney, if someone, if we all
decided money's not valuable,all the money that people are
hoarding, right, like is not,has no value.
(50:50):
We have a shared notion ofsomething's value.
And what this helps me to do inthis present moment is, my gosh,
in this.
In the midst of so muchpolarity, right?
Especially if we think we'repretty thoughtful.
I tend to think I'm prettythoughtful and reflective and so
maybe I'm right, but, but toreally question my own
(51:13):
assumptions, I.
To really look at the basicunderlying stories that I'm
telling myself by which I judgeanother life like that has
really created even morespaciousness within me to hold
differences of opinion with,with an honoring, um, with an
(51:35):
honoring heart and, and an openminds.
Yeah.
So I feel like his book has, wasreally timely for me.
It's an older book, but I readit last just in like.
December, so, yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (51:47):
I'll check it out.
I haven't read that one.
Nhien Vuong (51:48):
Ooh, so good.
Stephanie Barron Hall (51:50):
Um, okay.
Last question.
Um, tell me a piece of advicethat has really stuck with you.
Nhien Vuong (51:57):
Okay, so, uh, in the 12 step rooms, there's a
saying, keep coming back.
It works if you work it.
And, and so for me, that's not,I used to read tons and tons of
books and wonder why my lifewasn't changed.
I was like, oh, I have topractice meditation, so, oh, I
(52:19):
can just read about meditation.
It works if you
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:22):
you work it, yeah.
Nhien Vuong (52:24):
so, so practice.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:27):
Yeah, that's really good advice.
And I think, you know, assomebody who loves to read as
well, there can be that sense oflike, oh, I'm just gonna devour
all of this stuff and it's gonnachange me.
And it's like, no, no, it's notabout the devouring that changes
you and, and that can beshocking for those of us who
just wanna get onto the nextthing.
Nhien Vuong (52:48):
So fantastic.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:52):
Well thank you so much for joining
me.
This has been really great and Iam really looking forward to
your new book coming out.
Um, and I hope all of ourlisteners will pick up a copy as
well.
Nhien Vuong (53:01):
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Steph Barron Hall (53:03):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
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(53:24):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
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Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(53:44):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
we're helping to clarify threeness the idea of
(00:04):
wanting to add value to theworld.
Stephanie Barron Hall (00:07):
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (00:08):
Was never equated with this, the more
self-centered description of thethree, only seeking your own,
um, ambition, if you will, butrecognizing that yes, from the
three place of not believing inmy innate value and believing
that I must add value to theworld to be valuable.
(00:29):
So the quest to add value issomething I deeply resonate with
and deeply believe is a three,three-ish thing that yes, can
look like material or othersuccess when seen through the
Western lens.
Stephanie Barron Hall (00:50):
Hello and welcome to Enneagram in Real
Life, the podcast where weexplore how to apply our
Enneagram knowledge in our dailylives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BarronHall, and on today's episode
we're talking about using theEnneagram in a contemplative
way.
So my guest today is ReverendYan Vong and she is a lawyer,
uh, so Juris doctor and MD, andis an internationally accredited
(01:14):
Enneagram professional withdistinction, a certified somatic
Enneagram facilitator and thefounder of Evolving Enneagram.
So I followed her on Instagramfor a while, so, um, that might
be where you've encountered heras well.
She has been studying theEnneagram since 2002, teaching
it since 2007, and trainingother Enneagram professionals
since 2017, she holds a jurisdoctor from Stanford Law School,
(01:37):
a master of Divinity from UnityInstitute and Seminary, and a
Bachelor of Arts in Philosophyfrom the University of
California Irvine.
As an ordained interspiritualunity minister Yen marries
intellectual rigor with a heart,for a more collaborative,
compassionate world.
Born in wartime Vietnam andraised in the United States.
She comes from a family ofrefugees who built their lives
(01:59):
from the ground up, yin is aspiritual companion to
individuals from diversebackgrounds from around the
world.
She regularly offersscholarships for evolving
Enneagrams many transformationalprograms, and donates her time
to various nonprofits and theincarcerated.
Her extensive experience inpastoral care, community
building and conflict resolutionhelped to foster a world where
(02:20):
everyone belongs.
Her brand new book is coming outthis month.
It's called The Enneagram of theSoul of 40 Day Spiritual
Companion for the Nine Types.
And I love this quote from theforeword, which is by Russ
Hudson.
The Enneagram of the Soulinvites us on a journey of
profound self-discovery.
This beautiful book helps usremember that the real and
original Enneagram work helps usshed the concepts of ourselves
(02:43):
and others that no longer serveus, so that we may prepare
ourselves for the mysterious andfantastic changes ahead that we
all know are upon us.
We had a really great timediscussing not only her book,
but also our types.
We share the same Enneagram coretype and subtype.
So Nana and I really chattedabout that and we had a great
conversation, but I also wantedto let you know that, a big part
(03:06):
of Reverend Y's work isactually, um, building community
and helping people to walkalongside each other in
community, with the Enneagram.
So she's offering a two daycertification for people who
want to lead book journeys,meaning it's kind of like a book
club where you're just leadingpeople through the book and it's
very much a contemplativepractice.
She'll talk a lot about thestructure of the book, which is
(03:28):
I think is really helpful anduseful, during our conversation
today.
But this particular event, whereshe's offering the
certification, will be April12th and 13th.
So it's coming up here, so makesure you sign up for that if
you're interested in leadingfriends of yours.
And as I mentioned in her bio,this is very much kind of an
(03:49):
interfaith thing.
So, um, it incorporates allsorts of different practices and
you can be of various differentbackgrounds, like for example,
Zen, Buddhist or Muslim, ormystical Christian, or really
any of those that really have aninterest in contemplative or um,
meditative practices.
So if you'd like to learn moreabout this facilitator training,
(04:11):
you can find it on the EvolvingEnneagram website.
You can also find more about Yinand her book on evolving
Enneagram on Instagram, and Iwill link both of those things
in the show notes.
My final thought for this introbefore we get into the book is,
as I mentioned, yin and I sharethe same type and subtype, and I
think it's just always funnybeing in the same space with
(04:33):
somebody who shares your samesubtype because, You can kind of
get each other and you like,know where each other are coming
from without having to say toomuch.
And so we did say a lot, but um,it was just a really fun and
engaging conversation and I hopethat you really enjoy it.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Reverend
Yin Vong.
(04:54):
Okay.
Well, Nian, welcome to thepodcast.
Nhien Vuong (04:56):
So great to be here.
Thanks for having me, Steph.
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:59):
Let's start with a bit of an
introduction into yourbackground, um, how you found
the Enneagram and how you foundyour type.
Nhien Vuong (05:07):
Oh yes.
Okay.
Well, wow.
Deep dive already.
So I found the Enneagram thesame weekend that I.
Left my husband and left my lawjob in San Francisco.
So I was living in San Franciscoat the time and I basically quit
my life and I was sitting in myone bedroom like studio ish
(05:29):
apartment, and I had.
Purchased a, a stack of booksgoing, you know, I'm gonna
figure this out.
Like, why do I keep messing upmy life?
Um, and one of those books was,uh, understanding the Enneagram
by Don Riso and Russ Hudson,like one of the older Enneagram
books.
And so I look at this book andin it, there's that ready test,
(05:52):
that's R-H-E-T-I, uh, for thosewho are listening.
And, and so I took that online,read the description.
I actually scored highest at thetime.
In three with one just beingbelow it.
And at the time I thought I wasa one, so, so, um.
What happened was, well, Ilooked at both of them, so three
(06:14):
in one were always like up therefor me.
But what happened for me interms of believing I was a type
one at the time was when I readthe description about believing
that there's somethingfundamentally defective about
me.
Like that resonated with.
Like how I felt my entire life.
Like I felt like I wasconstantly reading books and
(06:36):
looking for like, what's wrongwith me?
Like what's wrong with me, thatI don't know how to be happy,
what's wrong with me, that otherpeople seem happy with these
things and I'm not, you know?
And then so there was thisconstant trying to like.
Fix myself and fix myenvironment.
And so that felt very one-ish atthe time.
And I remember when I read thatdescription in contrast to the
(06:58):
three description, which I feltlike was probably more social
subtype three, a little bit morewhite male in the description at
the time.
Right?
Like, so when I read the one, Icried for the type one.
I mean, I cried.
I wasn't a crier back then.
I was an attorney back then.
I was not a crier.
And I cried for like.
The afternoon and then I calledmy ex-husband and apologized.
(07:22):
So I was like, oh, I'm sorrythat I've never been sorry, our
whole relationship because likeI had this like need to be
right.
So there are all theserevelations that happened in
that moment, but the idea thatthere was this system that
could, that was telling me that,that your personality.
Things like you're defective,but you're more than your
(07:46):
personality.
Like this idea that like you'remore than that.
And I had never really beenexposed to that idea before,
like that, what, what if I'm notbroken?
Like that was the beginning ofplanting a seed in me that would
just begin to blossom and growover the years.
But that was my, like, that wasmy entry into the Enneagram.
(08:07):
And then.
From there?
Oh, should I, I wanna make sureI answer your question.
Okay.
So you wanna go to like how itcame to be here in this moment?
Okay, so, so that at the time,by the way, because I am a Unity
minister, at the time, I didn'tbelieve in God in spirituality
at all.
(08:28):
Like if anything, I was a devoutatheist.
I'd been.
Seeking my whole lifephilosophically, again, reading
tons of books, but nothingresonated with me.
So when I first found theEnneagram, I was using it
totally psychologically, like,oh my gosh, I understand this, I
understand you.
Life is getting better.
This is great.
And then two years later, I hita bottom in my life and I have
(08:52):
a, what I call my spiritualawakening.
And the bottom was basically a.
A point at which I was like,this is my relationships.
Weren't working.
Uh, I had no friends at thetime, which people are like
mind-boggling for people whoknow me today.
I had, I was so incrediblylonely.
(09:13):
All I had was my partner, myboyfriend at the time, never got
along with any of my boyfriends.
It was just a nightmare.
And then I was estranged from myfamily.
So this is a pretty extremestory, you know, and, but when I
hit bottom, it was just sort oflike.
Wow.
I think I'm smart, but I can'tdo this.
I of my own accord can't figureout my life how to.
(09:35):
And so that moment of am I opento another way?
And that opening was thebeginning of me.
Also meditating and meditationwas this.
Weird thing that people weredoing in Northern California.
Right.
And I remember the first time Iwas in, oh, so I hit bottom.
I started a 12 step program.
(09:56):
I went into one of these 12 stepprograms and they were
meditating.
And I remember I was like theone peeking to see like if it's
two people have their eyesclosed, you know, all the
things.
And so at that point, as I beganto.
Really feel the truth of thispromise of wholeness from the
(10:17):
inside out.
Like that began to changeeverything, and then that's
when.
The Enneagram, which was overhere.
Kind of like the understandingof that and then the felt direct
experience of like my wholeness.
And then from that place myconnection to other people like
(10:38):
it.
Like, oh, I was striving forthat connection before when I
didn't realize, like from withinme, I feel more connected to you
because I feel more caringtoward you because there's
something inside me that islike.
Connected to all that is, youknow, that like going within
rather than going without,right.
For, for that knowing, if youwill.
(10:59):
That's the beginning and thenI'll say happened to be a
relationship where I took thecertification training with
Helen Palmer narrative, uh, inthe narrative tradition in 2006,
I believe long time ago.
So.
That was the beginning of myentree into like formal
Enneagram training, and I'd saythe rest is history.
(11:23):
I'm happy to talk more aboutwhat I do today, but that's kind
of the backstory to thebeginnings of how that emerged.
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:29):
Sure.
I, I resonate with a lot of thethings that you've said and as
we've kind of chatted about, um,we share the same subtype and so
that makes sense.
But it's also interesting tohear how.
You had these different pathsand then it sounds like you were
kind of tapping into like theholy idea of the type three and
like really opening the heartcenter of the type three.
(11:51):
Um, which my teachers say thatthrees are the most emotional
type because the heart of theheart center, but we just turn
it off
Nhien Vuong (11:59):
Mm
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:00):
until we really do our work.
Right.
Nhien Vuong (12:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's so precious.
Yeah, absolutely.
In fact, in my family, um.
I was the crier in the family,you know, and I realized that
early on, people, you know, mysiblings would walk by.
I mean, uh, you know, again, wefled a war and it was like,
nobody is like sad or something.
And I'd be crying in the roomand they'd be like, why is she
still crying?
And I just Shut it down.
(12:23):
Shut it down.
And yeah, well, it clearlydidn't go anywhere, but, but
yeah, the heart, the heart ofthe heart types.
I love that.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:31):
And I think there is this type three
piece of.
Doing what everyone has alwaystold you to do.
Like this is how you can besuccessful, become an attorney,
Nhien Vuong (12:43):
Right?
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:44):
get this high powered job, and then
hitting this like rock bottomwhere you're like, this is not
it.
I don't know.
What is it though?
I just know it's not this.
Nhien Vuong (12:54):
yes, yes.
And and, and to that point, Iremember now looking back.
Seeing Threeness, it's so clearnow looking back, because even
the way I described my bottom, Ididn't describe it as, oh, I was
so sad, so despairing.
I was like, I was completelyhollow.
It was like I was, I collapsedin on the hollowness inside of
(13:14):
me is how I described it.
That's what it felt like, that Iwas so hollow.
And it was like, but you'reworking so hard.
You, how could you be so empty?
You know?
And, and, and, and it just like,it was like numbness.
It wasn't, it wasn't so muchdrama.
It was like just.
Nothing but the despair of thatnothingness inside myself, um,
(13:36):
to lead to a journey of thendiscovering it's because, and
you've been seeking it outsideyourself, you know, mainly
through relationships, mainlythrough a very three-ish way of
being seen.
And I love chatting with afellow like sexual three, which
I don't know that like I namedthat earlier.
But, uh, the sexual piece oflike being.
(13:58):
Wanted, like, like, and not justwanted, but maybe even put on a
pedestal.
Like, to be honest, right?
Like, because if you're not likeup there, you're nobody.
That was like the feeling, ifI'm not like that great or that
amazing to you, to this veryparticular person, um, then, you
know, I'm nobody.
(14:19):
And, and yeah, I couldn't havearticulated it back then, but
that was just the compulsion tostay.
In relationship, in unhealthyrelationships, you know, um,
yeah.
To, to meet that need and, andthen to find out that, you know,
I didn't focus on do I like you,are you interesting to me?
(14:42):
No.
Do you want me?
Okay.
That is the barometer.
How much you want me is okay,we're doing it.
We're being a relationship.
Right.
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:50):
Yeah, I can merge with you.
Yeah.
Nhien Vuong (14:54):
Yeah.
So amazing.
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:57):
Were there any kind of like aha
moments when you were figuringout, okay, I'm not a one, I'm a
three.
Like, what was that like, like.
Nhien Vuong (15:05):
Yeah, well it took an embarrassingly long time.
I will say.
I mean, only in the last severalyears and I've been teaching the
Enneagram for years.
Um, so what happened was, ofcourse we know that ones in
threes behaviorally are verysimilar.
They're rational competencytypes.
(15:26):
They can both work really hard,uh, and.
What we don't, I think a lot ofpeople don't realize about
threes is that depending on yourbackground, you can be very
perfectionistic.
So that description of cuttingcorners never resonated because
I was like, we don't cut cornershere.
Not in my house.
You know?
(15:46):
And so, so over time though,this inner.
Journey of self-compassion, ofcontemplation, centering prayer
is my primary spiritualpractice.
It's just a practice of selfemptying over time.
And then more so in recentyears, well first I started to
(16:08):
feel more whole.
I started to feel more loving,um, and only in say the last
four years.
I felt like this inner criticthat was heavy and mean and
bullyish my entire life was likealmost.
Just physically, almost likephysically gone from my
shoulders.
(16:28):
It was so bizarre.
And I had this thought that manyEnneagram teachers talk about,
which is people mistype whenthey're like, oh yes, I'm really
this type, but I'm so evolvednow.
I'm not like that.
And I'm like, BS you.
And I was like, you're.
Evolve, but you're not soevolved that you suddenly have
no inner critic.
Like, like, so that feeling thatwas pressing upon me was gone.
(16:50):
And, and so in thatspaciousness, I began the
inquiry again of maybe, maybeI'm not a one after all.
And it wasn't until I actuallyread Hamid Ali's, uh, his
pending's, ah, Alma's book, keysto the Enneagram, where he talks
about the three as wanting.
To live the model life and I'mlike, boom.
(17:12):
I have been talking about thismy whole life.
I'm like, if every I wanna livethe life that if everybody lived
as I lived the world would be abetter place.
That was, that was my goal mywhole life.
And this idea that it was notrelegated to oneness that that
what I equated as oneness in, inthis like idealized self was
(17:34):
also could also be seen as thewanting to live a model life,
right?
And yes, with the nuance of, andyeah, you need to be sexy and
attractive too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:45):
Right, of course.
Nhien Vuong (17:47):
Like you can't lose that.
Like you need to be all that,but like.
While keeping attractiveness,you know, thank God I'm a little
older now.
I'm like, screw it.
But, but you know, but in myearlier years especially, it
was, it was rough.
Yeah.
And so when I, I felt like thatresonated.
And the other thing I wanna add,and I think maybe the two of us
(18:08):
together, it feels like it cancreate that space where we're
helping to clarify threeness theidea of wanting to add value to
the world.
Stephanie Barron Hall (18:19):
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (18:20):
That I only thought of as the one's idealism of
doing good, right?
Was never equated with this, themore self-centered description
of the three, only seeking yourown, um, ambition, if you will,
but recognizing that yes, fromthe three place of not believing
in my innate value and believingthat I must add value to the
(18:44):
world to be valuable.
So the quest to add value issomething I deeply resonate with
and deeply believe is a three,three-ish thing that yes, can
look like material or othersuccess when seen through the
Western lens.
Right?
Yeah.
A lot of nodding.
So,
Stephanie Barron Hall (19:04):
Yeah.
I, I mean, I think like theconcept of I wanna be admirable,
I wanna be impressive.
Like, those feel really core tothe three motivation, I'd say.
Um, and that feels reallyaligned with like, wanting to be
the model, you know, wanting tobe, it's almost like threes
wanna be.
(19:25):
The prototype of like, this ishow to live a good life.
Um, and that, that does resonatefor sure.
I think another big piece forthrees is that sense of
hollowness and emptiness thatyou mentioned, um, of, of this
real fear that beneath thefacade there's nothing there.
Nhien Vuong (19:46):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (19:47):
and so like the, the desire to add
value, right?
But also the steep fear of like,okay, I'm actually empty inside.
That feels like it reallyresonates, and I don't know if
that does resonate for ones.
I'm trying to think of peopleI've done typing interviews with
and I don't feel like I've heardthat theme as much.
Nhien Vuong (20:06):
hmm, hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a great point.
Um, I think that that's accurateand, um, yeah, and, and just
related to that, uh, emptinessor the, the fear of.
Being fully empty, if you will,fully empty.
Uh, that emptiness is the firstthing encountered.
(20:29):
And the willingness to persistwith the emptiness without
having to fill it withaccomplishments or validation.
You know, that's the beginningof the healing.
Right.
You know, so the, to persist inthat emptiness and, and the
devastation of that emptiness,you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
(20:49):
So.
Stephanie Barron Hall (20:50):
how did you find your subtype?
Because again, that can be sochallenging, and I think
especially the sexual threesubtype can be a really tricky
one to land on.
Nhien Vuong (21:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I'll start by saying I'vebeen wrong before, so I could be
wrong again.
You know, I mean, legitimately,right?
Like I'm super open.
Uh, and, but I think that I, Imean, I look back and.
First of all, I identify with somany of the descriptions of the
(21:21):
sexual energy being aboutchemistry.
The ability to go in and justfeel the room and, you know,
where's the juice that thatpiece is.
So like, that's how I, I'venavigated life, right?
Um, unconsciously, until Ilearned about that and.
And yes, sexual competitiveness.
(21:41):
Like I think that if I were toweigh, knowing that social is my
second, but recognizing I'mlike, you know, I, for, I have
let go of opportunities in thatrealm.
Uh, you know, in favor ofrelationship time and time
again, in favor of desirabilityto particular people time and
time again.
(22:02):
Even understanding that, thatthe sexual dominant is more
likely to dress.
In, in a more unique way, uh,for the desired partner, even if
it doesn't fit the norm.
Like, like versus a socialdominant who might be more
inclined to just fit the norm,you know, be excellent within
(22:25):
that norm, but, but blended.
It more blend in more than thanthe way that I think I'm
constituted.
Yeah.
So I think that's the piece forme.
Um, also, even.
Again, there's so many differenttheories about the instincts,
but I really resonate, uh, withwhat Mario Kora says about what
(22:48):
he calls the transmittinginstinct for the what he equates
to the sexual instinct that manypeople call the sexual instinct.
Oh, and by the way, that thenarrative judicial sometimes
calls one-to-one instinct, andI.
Wholeheartedly disagree withthat characterization.
You know?
Because I was like, who?
Someone clearly was not a sexualDominic who, who named it that
(23:10):
way?
Right.
But that said, the transmittingpiece was like, it's almost like
you're, you, you transmit, lookat me and then listen to me,
look at me, listen to me likethat, that I resonate with for
sure.
As a way of being in the world.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (23:26):
Yeah, and I think that it's such a good
description.
And also I really think a lotabout like, um, polarities with
the sexual instinct where it'slike off and on, like.
All in, all out, you know, orthere is like the merging,
right?
Um, with that desired otherperson.
But there's also this thing thatI don't necessarily see in a lot
(23:49):
of other threes, which ispicking at conflict in a way
that a lot of threes are a bitmore averse to.
And so sometimes like with myhusband, he's like, why do you
have to just go againsteverything I say now?
I mean, I'm kind of like, well,you're a six so you do the same
thing.
But like there is this kind ofpart of me that's like Uhuh
Nhien Vuong (24:13):
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (24:14):
and when I teach it in corporate,'cause I
don't use sexual when I teach incorporate.
Right.
But I use the term spark.
Um,'cause I feel like again,that's like what we're after,
right?
Is like, let's just find aspark.
Nhien Vuong (24:26):
yes, yes.
Even as you were talking, I was,I was like, and we were talking
about, uh, a certainrelationship with conflict, a
little more comfort.
I was like, I've alwaysdescribed it as like, yeah, I'm
fiery.
Like, like I, you know, I, I, Iteach love in this, but like, I
don't mind fire.
Like, I don't mind that, um,aliveness.
(24:47):
That is equated, you know, with,um, yeah.
Sometimes with conflict and so,so yeah, like I don't, I don't
lean back when, when conflictcomes, I lean forward into it
for sure.
Yeah.
So it's interesting to hear thatin you as well.
Um,
Stephanie Barron Hall (25:03):
Yeah, I think it's interesting, but, but
there's also like the weird,like, let's merge, but let's
not, you know what I mean?
That piece too,
Nhien Vuong (25:12):
Yeah, that is really interesting.
Um, I think that, well, I mean,we could go into a whole
conversation about like, uh,some of the work I do one-on-one
with people in, um, in buildingup their repressed instinctual
center like.
You know, as I worked on withmyself, like there's no way I
(25:32):
would have my company evolvingEnneagram had I not worked on my
self preservation blind spot.
Like, steadiness was never mything.
I was in, and then I was out in,and then I was out.
I, I was such a lever most of mylife.
Like, I initiate and, and ofcourse I know that you have
self, pre middle, so there maybe a little different energy
(25:53):
there, you know, but for methat's, that's what that looked
like a lot.
Like the, there was no.
Reverence for any kind ofinfrastructure.
For most of my life, I had to.
Cultivate the capacity to, atfirst bear it, like, at this, it
wasn't like a like, welcome it,it was like bearing it and
(26:14):
feeling my discomfort and whatthat is like.
And then having that begin to,to change me to where things
that are more, um, routine ormundane or administrative now
have become sort of more likeacts of devotion.
That used to be burdens and, andyeah.
And so the capacity to stay topersevere, that is not often
(26:40):
present in the, the sexualdominance.
Right?
Like that, that has increasedsubstantially over time, but
very through a lot of likeintentionality, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Stephanie Barron Hall (26:55):
Yeah, and I think that's one of the things
that can differentiate the oneand three, right?
Because the other day I was.
On a podcast, and the one said,slow and steady wins the race.
And I was like, that is not agear that threes have.
Like maybe, maybe a, maybe selfpress three sometimes.
But there's still like, it's notslow and steady.
(27:16):
It's like, let's get it done.
Let, let's go for it.
Let's do it all today.
You know?
Nhien Vuong (27:21):
Slow and steady.
Yeah.
I've never thought that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (27:24):
No.
Nhien Vuong (27:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So interesting.
I'll, I'll jump in and say thatmy fir my reaction to that
statement.
Also slow and steady, like.
All my whole practice now isslowness, like contemplation is
spaciousness.
Right?
And I would say that even likethe idea that there's a race
starts to dissolve, like, youknow, but, but yeah, so just
(27:49):
looking at that old, thatparadigm, I'm like, oh, and it's
no longer a race because whereare we going?
But aren't we here?
You know, like, yeah.
Yeah.
So interesting.
Stephanie Barron Hall (28:02):
So I think that's a great segue to
talk about your book some.
So it's the Enneagram of theSoul a 40 day spiritual
companion for all nine types.
Nhien Vuong (28:12):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (28:12):
So tell me about your book and what
inspired you to write it.
Nhien Vuong (28:16):
Oh my goodness.
Okay, so, so.
Oh, where do I start?
My book has nine practices, nineprinciples, nine prayers, and
then 40 activations.
It also has a little Enneagramprimer that focuses on like the,
uh, our types of relationship tothe holy idea as well as like
(28:38):
our soul gifts.
Um, so, so I guess I'll startthere by saying like, what it is
and then what inspired me?
Uh uh, so the idea like.
I'm a Unity minister.
Unity has this very likeholistic, non-dual, uh,
perspective on who we are sayingthat we are not born in original
(28:59):
sin, but instead born inoriginal blessing.
Born whole and perfect exactlyas we are.
And, and then from thatperspective, you know, there's
this idea that life is a fallingasleep to.
That divine wholeness of, andjust like the self forgetting at
0.9 and, and then the waking upto oneness though isn't just
(29:25):
okay, we're all one like thisamorphous oneness, but instead
the idea is that we move from.
Personality being identifiedwith personality to then
something called individuality,which is the self that knows it
is one with all that is, butstill has the uniqueness of the
(29:47):
gifts of your type, you know, sothat you are living from this
place of knowing what, what is,what undergirds us and what is
behind us.
What is within us is thisspirit.
Spirit is love, is light.
And yet.
There's a purpose to Enneagramtype.
We don't completely abandon it.
(30:07):
We definitely don't reject ordemonize it, but rather it be,
it comes into service to thewhole, to that wholeness, into
that oneness.
And so this book is really aimedto invite people into.
That consideration, uh, of whatEnneagram inner work can be for,
(30:30):
and then also to offer a paththat is.
Interspiritual or spirituallyopen?
Uh, I've noticed that there weremany devotionals that are
Christian, fundamentalChristian, and I hope that this
book actually invites everybodyright.
You know, so is inclusive ofthat, but that.
(30:50):
These devotionals don't alalways resonate if like Bible
scripture does, may not alwaysresonate.
Like I quote from Buddhistteachers and from Sufi, uh,
mystics like Rumi.
And, and that is true to my ownjourney.
The truth of my journey is thatI've been deeply informed by
diverse, spiritual and religiouspaths, and I wanted to offer a
(31:14):
companion guide for others whomight be feeling more on their
own out there.
In that path as well.
Yeah.
So, so that's the heart of it.
And then practically speaking,um, unlike some devotionals that
are only like for your number,this one has the 40 activations
(31:37):
include descriptions for each ofthe types.
Um, so I have found that when Ifirst published some of these on
Instagram, oh, to go back to howit was inspired.
Okay.
I've been wanting to write abook for centuries and then I
would set aside Friday.
Nothing would happen.
It was so frustrating, so hard.
And then, um, one day one of myclients asked me to write some
(32:00):
affirmations for some big eventthey were having.
And it was late in the game.
They asked for it.
I wrote them.
They're like, oh my God, we lovethem.
We're so sorry.
We, um, it's, it's like too lateto submit them.
But then I saw them and I sentthem to some of my faculty and
they were like.
These are good.
I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And then for 90 straight days,somehow I wrote 90 of these like
(32:25):
daily activations.
I mean, it took like four hoursa day.
I don't even know.
It just came from nowhere.
So I started putting them onInstagram.
I wasn't even really onInstagram.
And then people were like, oh,when I first put them out,
someone asked.
Oh, these are good.
What, what book did you get themfrom?
Or like, who wrote them?
I was like, I, I'm like, whowrote them?
(32:46):
I better put my name on it.
It was so funny.
And then, but then the otherthing was people were like, is
there a book?
And I'm like, oh, this is mybook.
Like here I was working overthere and like.
Duh.
This is the book that I'm meantto write.
And, and so it came togetherlike that.
The reason I bring up the nineis people were starting to read
(33:08):
them all, not just their own,and it created a, a spaciousness
of perspective for people, uh,that was different from just
reading your own.
And then people were readingthem to their neighbors during
Covid, and I was like.
Oh, this is meant for communityand, and yeah.
So, so that piece of like whatinspired it, but also how it was
(33:33):
a very almost like collaborativejourney of how the whole
universe is like telling me whatneeds to happen for this, what's
needed.
Right.
And, and so that's kind of howthe book emerged.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (33:47):
Wow, that feels very, in touch with like
the higher level of type three,like thinking about the holy
ideas and you know, the virtueand everything.
that it kind of came about.
It wasn't like, I'm gonna justset this goal and go for it.
It was like it just entered.
Nhien Vuong (34:06):
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:07):
Yeah.
Nhien Vuong (34:07):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:09):
That's beautiful.
and you talk in your book aboutdiscovering your divine nature
through the lens of theEnneagram,
Nhien Vuong (34:15):
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:16):
and I'm wondering if you can share more
about what that means.
Nhien Vuong (34:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so when I teach theEnneagram and what I talk about
in the book is I actually preferthat people not start with the
nine, but with the one, thecircle of the Enneagram, and
really meditate on this notionthat the circle represents our
wholeness.
And for me, and it doesn't haveto be for everyone.
(34:40):
You can benefit from the bookeven if you don't believe that.
But, but my belief is that, uh,that circle represents our
divine nature.
That, that we are intrinsicallyone with the divine.
And so really it's open the,when I talk about opening to our
divine nature, I'm just reallytalking about opening to our
authentic nature, right?
(35:01):
Like what is true.
And, but if you look at thecircle.
You can see that all of thetypes sit at the circumference
of the circle.
And just like if you are a waveon the edge of the ocean, right,
like you're not.
In the depths of your being,coming from the depths of your
(35:22):
being.
And it's not just the threesthat are superficial in this
way, right?
That no, none of us when weoperate from personality are
operating from the totality anddepth of our whole essence.
And so, so the practice isrecognizing how personality is a
doorway, a portal, um, anopening.
(35:43):
It's like it gives us a clue,you know, into that.
Uh, divine, uh, the fullerdivine nature, and, and so
learning about our Enneagramtype can help us to do that.
But the activations are designedto offset the pool of type, the
gravitational pool of type.
(36:03):
Toward the circumference, towardacting out the habit of type and
staying just right there.
Yeah.
So each of the invitations aredesigned to consider another way
of showing up that maybe thetype says No way, right?
Like, how does the three everget to stop?
Right to allow like space forsomething else to emerge, you
(36:25):
know, without calling ourselveslazy or, you know, like the, you
know, that kind of thing.
And, and recognizing that, howdoes the two ever learn to, um,
to say no, to not give, to knowwho they are with, without that
relationality of giving.
So that's, that's the hope forthe book that, that each.
(36:46):
Person by entering through theirtype might get even a glimpse of
a part of their rejectedwholeness, right?
Rejected by the type and have,uh.
Space and invitation andcompanionship through the book
to open to that wholeness morefully.
(37:07):
Yeah.
And so there are practices inthe book as well to help those
nine practices are designed forsupporting, uh, the, the 40 INTA
activations.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (37:19):
I love this perspective too, because I.
I mean, spirituality is, is achallenge for me.
just because I came out of oneof those, you know, more, um,
high control religiousenvironments.
And so it can be so challengingthen to regain some perspective
(37:40):
on spirituality that like onceyou leave that of like, okay,
well now how do I get in touchwith this?
Um, and so through doing workaround actually like.
H almost is teachings likefacets of unity and the keys to
the Enneagram.
There is this intrinsic conceptof like, well, we have to have
some sort of connection to thespiritual in order to
Nhien Vuong (38:02):
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hal (38:02):
understand these concepts at all.
Right?
But there's this innatespirituality to it that, um, we
have to be able to, tounderstand and recognize.
And I really like your vision ofwhat that looks like, because it
can be so challenging to havelike a concept of what that,
that could mean outside of, um,you know, some of the more,
Nhien Vuong (38:23):
Establish like dogma religion.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, thank you.
And, and.
You know, the idea that for me,I believe our most authentic
teaching is, you know, we teachwhat we most need to learn and
we teach what we needed.
And I know for me, questing,since I was a little girl, for
(38:44):
like the meaning of life andhaving no help in that, um, and
not really believing most ofthe.
Religious books that I read, Iwas like, okay, well half the
population never had a chance toknow about this God you're
talking about.
And so, you know, it was like,is it fair?
You know, my grandpa has neverheard and is he going to hell?
(39:04):
Right?
Like, like that, that was hardfor me.
And, and there was no support.
I've had people.
Tell.
I remember one time I wasactually really stressed about
not finishing the book, and Ihad a woman tell me, you know,
yin, you don't even realizebefore you, I didn't even know
you could be spiritual but notreligious.
I was like, what?
You know, like, whoa.
I mean, I, I thought most peopleknew that, but it's like
(39:26):
there's, there are all thesepeople who don't know that yet.
I'm like, yes, there's space forthis.
When we know that there's adirect connection that we have
to this, this allness of being.
Right?
Yeah.
So, and the tricky part I thinkin all of my work in the
community that I hold, which isalso interspiritual, is I hold
(39:47):
my integrity when I speak in Istatements of like what I
believe.
But what I believe doesn't needto be what you believe.
And the reason for that is it sohappens to be that what I
believe is that you arefundamentally divine no matter
what you think or believe,right?
So, so it doesn't matter.
I don't need to convince you tobelieve something in order for
(40:09):
you to be divine.
And if I'm not holding yourdivinity, that's my problem.
That's my lack of seeing.
Yeah, that's not a lack ofyours.
It's that I'm not connected tothe Holiness.
And so that's my practice, uh,on an ongoing basis and how I
hold space for differences inother people.
Right.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:30):
Yeah.
That's so beautiful.
Um, I'm wondering if you couldshare one or two practices from
your book that you might findbeneficial for us to incorporate
in our daily lives, especiallyif we're a bit newer to this
kind of form of spirituality.
Nhien Vuong (40:46):
Mm mm Yeah.
So.
One practice.
So, so I do have nine practiceslisted in the book, but I want
to share one that's not in thenine that I hope just permeates
the book.
And it might sound like overly,I don't know, loosey goosey or
(41:06):
woowoo, but I mean it when I saythat.
For me, compassion as a.
Practice has probably been themost transformational thing that
I've seen in myself and in otherpeople.
And I say that carefully becauseour society has confused things
like self-care.
(41:28):
Oh, self-care.
You know, this is bubble bathnights.
Everybody, you know, like, youknow, or self care like, is
maybe indulging in things thatare not life giving because it
feels like I'm treating myself.
So, and sometimes compassioncan, can be applied to be like,
oh yes, well it doesn't matterthat I did that.
That's okay.
It's, it's something deeper thatI mean, that says, wow, in this
(41:51):
moment I can't forgive thisperson.
And the old me might have beenjudgmental.
Toward myself that I am notthere yet.
And somehow compassion is acircle that becomes larger, that
holds my unforgiveness, holds mywillingness to forgive is
something like making space forwhat is and what's true in me
(42:14):
right now.
And I've noticed that when.
My clients, when my communitymembers apply that to what is
happening for them, then theshift they've been waiting for,
they're like whole lives startsto happen, right?
And, and something softens and,and becomes like open, right?
(42:36):
It's almost like if you thinkabout.
You know, Enneagram, literallyas a fixation.
It's like the, the fix thatfixation is so constricted,
right?
And then compassion doessomething like that.
Wow.
This little space here.
And in that space, something Imight call spirit or divine love
flows.
(42:57):
And that is the thing that endsup transforming the person.
Right?
And so, so that's the, it'salmost like I.
I repeatedly tell people thatI'd rather you not know the
Enneagram than apply theEnneagram without compassion.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:14):
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (43:15):
Yeah.
So that's, that's one practice.
I could share another that's alittle, maybe a little more
concrete too.
It's up to you.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:23):
Well, I do love that one, but if you'd
like to share another, I'm surewe'd love to hear it.
Nhien Vuong (43:28):
So, oh my God, how do I pick?
So from, from the, from thenine, the one that keeps jumping
out is the welcoming practice.
Yeah.
So.
Uh, the welcoming practice,well, of course it's all in the
book, but like the shortcut is,the short version is if you have
a triggering feeling, uh, todrop step one, drop into the
(43:49):
feeling as a sensation in yourbody.
You know, first as a step towelcome it by allowing it to be
received.
Like, oh, maybe the feeling ofanxiety is actually like bubbly
stuff in my belly, you know, tojust have space for that.
Then step two, and this is aspiritual element, uh, is.
As you welcome this sensation,you welcome in the presence of
(44:13):
spirit by whatever name it couldbe welcoming love.
And from a Buddhist perspective,I think, uh, Cynthia Brazeau,
who's talked about this prayerhas said it's almost as if when
you welcome in that presence,maybe your anxiety was a little
like tight.
Bright red dot and now you'veput it into an ocean of
(44:35):
awareness.
And so with little red.in anocean, what is that like?
So welcoming in spirit.
Step two.
And then step three is arelease.
A release, the need for power orcontrol over this feeling or
situation.
I released the need for approvalor esteem around this feeling or
(44:56):
situation.
I released the need for securityor certainty around this feeling
or situation.
I released the need to changeanything about this feeling or
situation, and I released theneed to change anything about
myself.
And so that prayer is like awelcoming of what is that?
(45:16):
Paradoxically, just likecompassion actually allows this
experience to move through us,to not get stuck, to not cause
reactivity, but it starts toclear to me it's an act of deep
self-compassion and love to, tonot reject what we're
experiencing in any moment.
(45:37):
And then, but also a, asubmitting of it to something
bigger than ourselves.
I think that's a piece of it aswell to understand.
Then I realized that as I'vepracticed this, if I'm allowed
to feel anything, right, if Ihave space to feel anything,
then I'm free.
(45:59):
Right.
Uh, then I'm spiritually free tolive my full potential.
Because there were moments,there was a moment when I left
church ministry to foundevolving Enneagram, where I was
terrified.
I was like, I don't, I don'tknow.
And I remember thinking, oh,it's because you want the
guarantee that you'll succeed.
You want the guarantee that ifyou leave.
And I was like, if I'm preparedto fail to feel that, then I am
(46:20):
free.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:21):
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (46:22):
Oh, you know, that's, that's my ongoing
practice.
So everything I put in the book,I practice.
This?
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:31):
Yeah.
And I think something that I'vejust noticed is, um, it's not to
say that like I'm free to feelanything, and so who cares?
But it's also, you mentionedearlier like, okay, I'm really
drawing upon this self presinstinct to be consistent and to
like be uncomfortable with thatand to build these, you know,
(46:55):
consistencies and, and all ofthose things.
And, and so it's not like.
Jumping in, okay, I have toapply this extreme rigidity or I
have to apply this extremepermissiveness.
Like there is that compassionand taking care of yourself and
the community and the work thatyou're wanting to do.
Um, holding both.
Nhien Vuong (47:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
And, um, in what you spoke to,uh, why I have a, uh, it's a
love hate relationship with likesocial media posting about
Enneagram, which, you know, likekind of like.
Things taken out of context,things in, you know, these,
these little soundbite ways ofsaying, oh my God, free, okay,
I'm gonna be free.
(47:37):
I do anything I want.
You know, kind of, you know.
But like in the context, I thinkabout like the whole book and
what it's designed to support,which is if you, if we really go
within.
Like, like, can we trust thatwhat is within is deeply good?
That, that what is withinpurifies and, and that is
different from the personality.
'cause I, I hear sevens, youknow, behind what you're saying,
(47:58):
free, you know, like, I justdon't wanna, want, want fun, you
know, kind of.
But the seven going in, like,there's a steadiness, the
sobriety, the virtue of theseven that shifts.
There's a groundedness thatwhere, you know, what's that
song?
The freedom's just another wordfor nothing left to lose, you
know?
The seven doesn't ever get topossess any moment of life.
(48:19):
Ever get to really have anymoment when the compulsion of
the types need for, um,unlimitedness causes them to not
be free to actually
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:30):
Settle in.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nhien Vuong (48:33):
To savor, to, to be here actually, ever.
To have the moment and, and so,so that opening to a larger
notion of what freedom means,you know?
Yeah.
So vital.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, okay.
If our listeners are listening,and I'm sure they're loving
this, um, where can they findyou and connect with you?
Nhien Vuong (48:56):
Yes.
Um, evolving enneagram.com.
Um, and also now that I'm anauthor, I have my own author
website, so that's Nien,N-H-I-E-N, hyphen VUON g.com as
well.
So, um, and of course, and allmy, all my.
Social media is, is evolvingenneagrams, so yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:19):
All of that will be linked up in the
show notes and your book iscalled, the Enneagram of the
Soul.
Nhien Vuong (49:25):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:26):
So I will definitely link that and I am
really looking forward togetting it as well.
Um, but before I let you go, Ihave two final questions that I
ask everyone.
Nhien Vuong (49:35):
Okay.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:36):
So the first one is, tell me about a
book that has helped you refreshyou or shaped you in the last
year.
Nhien Vuong (49:46):
So there have been many books in the past year, but
the book that I think, um, is,was meant.
For me to help me meet thismoment of life the most is
Sapiens.
Um, it's a brief history ofhumankind by Yuval Noah Harra.
(50:07):
I hope I'm pronouncing the nameright, like rad.
I mean, I mean this person'slike religion is just the myth,
you know?
So, like, as a minister, like,but I, I felt like it was so
important to read this.
The reason it feel so importantfor me is number one.
I'm not great at history, so itwas really good to really get
this overview of how thingsdeveloped over time.
(50:28):
But one thing that he said thatreally struck me was this idea
that even.
Everything we create is based onmyth, like that money, right?
As soon as we stop valuingmoney, if someone, if we all
decided money's not valuable,all the money that people are
hoarding, right, like is not,has no value.
(50:50):
We have a shared notion ofsomething's value.
And what this helps me to do inthis present moment is, my gosh,
in this.
In the midst of so muchpolarity, right?
Especially if we think we'repretty thoughtful.
I tend to think I'm prettythoughtful and reflective and so
maybe I'm right, but, but toreally question my own
(51:13):
assumptions, I.
To really look at the basicunderlying stories that I'm
telling myself by which I judgeanother life like that has
really created even morespaciousness within me to hold
differences of opinion with,with an honoring, um, with an
(51:35):
honoring heart and, and an openminds.
Yeah.
So I feel like his book has, wasreally timely for me.
It's an older book, but I readit last just in like.
December, so, yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (51:47):
I'll check it out.
I haven't read that one.
Nhien Vuong (51:48):
Ooh, so good.
Stephanie Barron Hall (51:50):
Um, okay.
Last question.
Um, tell me a piece of advicethat has really stuck with you.
Nhien Vuong (51:57):
Okay, so, uh, in the 12 step rooms, there's a
saying, keep coming back.
It works if you work it.
And, and so for me, that's not,I used to read tons and tons of
books and wonder why my lifewasn't changed.
I was like, oh, I have topractice meditation, so, oh, I
(52:19):
can just read about meditation.
It works if you
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:22):
you work it, yeah.
Nhien Vuong (52:24):
so, so practice.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:27):
Yeah, that's really good advice.
And I think, you know, assomebody who loves to read as
well, there can be that sense oflike, oh, I'm just gonna devour
all of this stuff and it's gonnachange me.
And it's like, no, no, it's notabout the devouring that changes
you and, and that can beshocking for those of us who
just wanna get onto the nextthing.
Nhien Vuong (52:48):
So fantastic.
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:52):
Well thank you so much for joining
me.
This has been really great and Iam really looking forward to
your new book coming out.
Um, and I hope all of ourlisteners will pick up a copy as
well.
Nhien Vuong (53:01):
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Steph Barron Hall (53:03):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway
(53:24):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(53:44):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
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History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.