March 11, 2025 • 59 mins
On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, Stephanie Barron Hall interviews Reagan Pugh about his journey of self-discovery through the Enneagram, his new book Too Emotional: Overcome the Thunderstorm of Feelings, Shame, and Self-Doubt, and his personal and professional experiences. Reagan reflects on his early interest in introspection and writing, his professional career as an educator and consultant, and how the Enneagram has deepened his understanding of himself as the one-to-one subtype of Type Four. They discuss themes like shame, emotionality, and the value of taking actionable steps to move beyond internal struggles. Reagan shares practical advice for people who feel overwhelmed by their emotions and emphasizes the importance of participating fully in life. Find the full show notes here: https://www.ninetypes.co/blog/tag/podcast+episode
🔗 Connect with Reagan!
📷 Instagram: @reaganpugh
🔗 Connect with Stephanie!
📷 Instagram: @ninetypesco
🎥Youtube: @stephbarronhall
Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Reagan Pugh (00:00):
So in the workplace for four is the thing that I
(00:03):
like to guide people toward isyou need to get really great at
doing unsexy work.
Because here's the deal, forcealways worry, Is this unique
enough?
Is there going to be enoughmeaning in this work?
And what they don't realize isinherently a four is already so
nuanced and so introspectiveThat if you were to just start
(00:24):
making regular contributionsthat you actually put into the
world You cannot help but addyour unique flavor to that.
You cannot help but make itmeaningful and intentional so
Just do things, just submitideas, just do unsexy work.
And then you're going to be ableto look back and you're going to
(00:45):
be able to see where there wasmeaning infused in all of that.
Hello and welcome to any gram inreal life.
The podcast where we explore howto apply our Enneagram knowledge
in our daily lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie Barronhall.
And on today's episode, I amtalking with author writer,
(01:10):
speaker facilitator, Reagan,pew.
So Reagan is a type four on theEnneagram and he just wrote a
book called too emotional.
And this is all about howforests can delve into their
emotions without getting stuckin them and learning to have a
different and more balancedrelationship with their
emotions.
(01:31):
And I think what I hear frompeople most of the time is that
we need to be more in touch withour emotions.
And so Reagan and I kind oftalked about that paradox as
well, where we see, you know,with fours, one of the
challenges can be getting sostuck and, and they're feeling
stuck in their emotions.
So Reagan has written this bookabout how to navigate.
(01:54):
Life as a four and it's calledto emotional, overcome the
thunderstorm feelings, shame andself doubt.
So I think this is a greatlesson for fours, of course, but
also if you love force, um, andmany of us do, and many of us
have fours, our wives, and wecould really benefit from
understanding this from theirperspective.
So.
Check out his book, um, on hiswebsite, which is Reagan
(02:17):
pew.com.
So R E a G a N P U G h.com or.
On Instagram at Reagan pew.
And all of that is linked in theshow notes.
So I really hope you enjoy thisepisode.
I'm going to share a little bitabout his bio and then we'll
jump in.
Reagan pew.
Isn't a writer, speaker, andfacilitator.
(02:37):
His focus is helping regularfolks understand themselves so
they can improve relationships,find meaning in work and live
more intentional lives.
Reagan speaks to thousands ofpeople each year at
organizations across sectorsfrom corporate clients like
Facebook, Pepsi, and Whirlpoolto nonprofits, like meals on
wheels and the American redcross to associations and
(02:58):
professional organizations.
Prior to writing and speakingfull time, Reagan guided
programs on storytelling,culture and leadership at
companies like Nike, Westerndigital, and Kimberly Clark with
a global management consultingfirm.
Reagan started his career as ahigh school teacher.
And he since designed and taughtleadership courses on multiple
(03:19):
university campuses and enjoyspeaking to college audiences.
Around the country havingvisited over 50 universities to
date.
He has a TEDx speaker, longtimeblogger and frequent podcasts
guest.
You can read more of Reagan'swriting by subscribing to his
semi-regular blog on hiswebsite.
There, you will also finddetails about booking Reagan to
(03:40):
speak at your event or work withyour team.
And you can also purchase hisbook.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Regan peel.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:49):
Well, Regan Pugh, welcome to the
podcast.
Reagan Pugh (03:52):
So glad to be here, Steph.
Thank you for having me.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:55):
Yeah.
I'm glad to chat with you.
We were just chatting about thisearlier, but we actually went to
the same church growing up.
Reagan Pugh (04:02):
Yeah, the, the IBC Irving Bible Church crew has
broad, uh, broad reaches and funto look back on that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:11):
Yeah.
It's so funny.
Um, so I'm glad that we wereactually able to connect through
Ellie as well.
And our listeners probably haveheard her on the podcast, Ellie
type seven, and she came andtalked about the Enneagram, but
today we're talking about yourstory and we will get started,
um, with your introduction, butI can't wait to also talk about
your book later.
Reagan Pugh (04:32):
Thank you.
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:33):
Yeah.
So first start out with anintro.
Who are you?
Give us a little bit of yourbackground.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (04:42):
is started writing in a journal in seventh grade,
capturing thoughts, capturingjournals.
And now to this day, when wemove, I've got journals
chronicling my whole life fromseventh grade on.
I've got them in a big duffelbag.
And the joke that Ellie offersis always, uh, so who's going to
(05:04):
help us move Reagan's baggage tothe next house?
Um, so there was always thisdeep, um, deep desire to know
myself, uh, a, a, a, a deep pulltoward introspection and wanting
to make sure that I was livinglife correctly and understanding
what's going on and what myplace was in the world.
(05:26):
Um, always felt like a littlebit of an outsider looking in.
And even though I did stuff likestudent government, got class
president in school, um, Istill, uh, is a four.
Wondered if, if everybody wasreally genuine in their approval
or not.
Um, but felt a deep pull as apreacher's kid toward, you know,
(05:49):
Helping people understand themeaning of life, um, and pushing
people toward purpose.
So that rolled into my first jobas a 10th grade teacher and
loved teaching 10th gradeEnglish.
And you know, that teachingEnglish was great.
I was an English major incollege.
Uh, but there was also thoseopportunities sandwiched in to
help these young people who aretrying to figure out who they
(06:11):
are answer some big lifequestions.
So then education kind ofcontinued to be a theme.
I, I worked with a nonprofitafter that, that developed a
leadership curriculum forcollege students.
And so I got to teach a coupleof college courses in business
leadership and loved that.
Rolled into managementconsulting for five or six
(06:31):
years, which also allowed me todo training in personal
professional development for theclients that we had.
So education guiding a group ofpeople toward understanding
things, uh, is a way for me toalso continue this inner
Spelunking to understand who,who I am.
And then, you know, five or sixyears ago, I thought, well, what
does it look like for me to goout as a speaker trainer
(06:53):
facilitator on my own?
And so for that, that's been thestory for the past five or six
years, I'll do workshops andkeynotes on personal
development, mindset, ventureinto time management, all that
kind of stuff.
And the hope is that the newbook called Too Emotional is
going to help me focus mymessaging a little bit because I
(07:14):
think right now some of mymessaging is a little scattered
and I really want to be able tofocus on the interior journey
that people are navigating.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:23):
Yeah.
That's such a great, uh,succinct answer.
I think I could tell that youpractice that sharing about your
history and your journey.
Um, Enneagram fits in with allof that, because you have all
these different spots where youwere really invested in that
personal development side.
And so.
The Enneagram seems to be anatural fit.
Reagan Pugh (07:45):
The Enneagram was a natural fit.
Um, you know, I'm sure you'reprobably similar.
I knew all the Myers Briggs andStrengthsFinder stuff and on my
breaks at work would go toBarnes Noble and buy a book and
read it in the parking lot.
So I was happy in the beginningjust to add another tool of
(08:06):
personal understanding to thetool belt.
And like most people for a time,just viewed it as another way to
excuse my behavior.
Um, and I think the gift of theEnneagram and particularly what
Ellie, my wife, has helped merecognize is that, Yeah, it's
not a tool to tell you who youare.
(08:28):
It's a tool to tell you.
Uh, it's a, it's a tool to helpyou find freedom from the story
that your ego is telling youthat you are.
So I'll never forget when thatshift happened and I was able to
see that, Oh, I'm, I'm notsupposed to be excusing my
tendency toward being reallyemotional.
(08:49):
I'm supposed to find freedomfrom that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (08:54):
Yeah.
So I think you've hinted nowthat your type, so tell us about
your type, like finding yourtype and your subtype.
Reagan Pugh (09:05):
I don't know if we did the, me.
Um, personality test thing ornot, uh, I, you know, you hear
that what you're supposed to dois maybe not take a test, but
read all of the different types.
And then whichever one you wouldset the most is probably yours.
I don't know, but I rememberreading for and going, Oh geez,
(09:26):
that feels really close to home.
And then there was also somesort of a twisted pride in the
fact that it was named thetragic romantic.
Take your night.
Look back in my life and thoughtof all the times that I'd
wandered lonely and parks ofwith a journal and a book of
poetry Wondered why my lifewasn't what I thought it should
be.
I thought yeah, that soundsright.
(09:47):
Um that
Stephanie Barron Hall (09:49):
The tragic romantic.
I don't know if I've heard thatmoniker.
Reagan Pugh (09:55):
maybe I made it up but but is a way to excuse it
but that's it I thought yeah,I'm just uh It's fixed my whole
life feels like a black andwhite French movie, you know You
Uh,
Stephanie Barron Hall (10:16):
So then you found your, your type.
Reagan Pugh (10:18):
find the type.
Um, and again, in some ways thatthat allowed me, and I think
this is some, in some ways thegift of the Enneagram, because
that allowed me to say, well,I'm not the only one.
Uh, there's other people likeme.
Um, but I don't know that itreally became a tool for growth.
Until the subtypes wereintroduced, and I think that's
(10:41):
such a pivotal move for people.
Stephanie Barron Ha (10:45):
Absolutely.
So tell us about your subtype.
Reagan Pugh (10:47):
Um, you know, it's interesting, when you think
about the, when you look at theinstincts, self pres, social,
sexual, and then you look at theway that they map to the
subtypes, it's not always adirect match.
And, and so initially when Ilooked at the instincts, I
thought, well, I've got to beself press because I'm like very
(11:12):
concerned with, um, finances andthe order of our home and like
schedule.
Like if you were to see mycalendar stuff, like I'll like,
I like put on my calendarretroactively, like went to
grocery store, you know, likeit's cause I like to look back
and understand how my time wasutilized.
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:30):
Mm hmm.
Reagan Pugh (11:31):
And so with that desire toward kind of safety and
control, I thought self presshas to be what it is.
But thankfully, when we dugdeeper and again, with the help
from Ellie, my wife, uh, we, westarted, we definitely knew that
I was social repressed, which Iknow you are as well.
Um, and this idea that I mightbe a sexual force started to
(11:55):
bubble to the surface.
And then this language came outthat a sexual force, was the
angriest number on theEnneagram.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:03):
hmm.
Reagan Pugh (12:05):
I thought about all of the times in my life that I
felt like I was unseen, or Ifelt like I was not worth
people's time, or I felt like Iwas disrespected or overlooked,
and how angry that made me, andhow I carried around with me
(12:25):
this sort of resentment againstpeople who just seemed to
overlook me in this envy, whichis the passing of the war, for
the folks who seemed to Gettinglife right.
And then that maybe allowed meto say, could be a sexual four.
Um, yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:47):
So then how did that transform your
growth journey?
Because obviously you're like,okay, I already know I'm looking
at this emotional part.
And then now I'm looking at theanger part.
And I'm sure you've heard theadage, which I actually think is
really rude, but I've heard forus say that it feels true to
them that sexual floors makeothers suffer,
Reagan Pugh (13:09):
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hal (13:10):
especially when they feel misunderstood.
Reagan Pugh (13:13):
Uh, yeah, that's true.
That's that's true.
Um, yeah.
If I, if I'm gonna suffer,you're gonna suffer too.
Uh, and, and, you know, there's,there's several sections.
The, the book is, is split upinto kind of relationship with
self, relationship with others,and relationship with work.
(13:33):
And in the relationship withothers section, I basically
tried and list all of the waysin which force can, can put
other people through the ringer.
And so there's sections titledand causing other people to walk
on eggshells or not acceptingapologies the first time.
Um, because yeah, there's this,there's this sense that I've,
(13:58):
I've been wronged or that I'mdefective.
Um, and that.
Other people aren't noticingthat other people are
empathizing with that.
And so I'm not going to get themicrophone unless I take it.
I'm not going to get attentionfrom other people unless I force
it.
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:16):
Yeah.
And I think that plays intothat, right?
I mean, so for our listeners, alot of people might not know a
lot about the sexual forcesubtype, um, because different
people teach it differently.
Of course.
Um, so we have the selfpreservation for, they tend to
be more, um, inward for us.
Actually, I think this is a bigmisnomer or misconception for us
(14:37):
can be very task oriented, um,at times, and especially when
they're really motivated to dosomething.
So, uh, self preservation for ustend to show up.
Actually, sexual fours do this alittle bit too, but tend to show
up a lot more like threes.
They're very, um, driven.
They feel a lot.
They're very sensitive, but theydon't show people.
And I think all fours putgargantuan energy into showing
(15:00):
up appropriately at work becausethey've gotten so much feedback
that they're too emotional.
Right.
We'll talk about too emotional.
Right.
Um, and then social fours, um,they're often called, so sexual,
Self preservation fours arecalled tenacity, social fours
are called shame, and they havelike, they're just a softer kind
(15:21):
of four.
Um, they tend to be really warm,really loving, and they have
more of a sadness that they kindof wear on their sleeve a little
bit more.
Um, so even when they feelreally happy, they also have
like this real tenderness aboutthem.
Um, and they're just like verysweet, kind people.
Um, and.
(15:41):
Not to say that the other two,four subtypes aren't, but that's
not how they lead, um, in theworld.
And sexual force tend to be verydriven.
They're very competitive andthey have this real sense of,
you know, inferiority andsuperior and, um, superiority.
So like everyone is eitherbetter or worse.
Nobody's equal.
Reagan Pugh (15:59):
Amen.
Stephanie Barron Hall (16:00):
And so that's a driving force.
So when you, what is it called?
Oh, it's called competition.
when you're like, okay, that,that fits for me.
Reagan Pugh (16:11):
Yeah.
You, you're constantly lookingaround and, and everything's a
scorecard and you're trying tounderstand, you know, where,
where am I in relation to otherpeople?
And I, the inferioritysuperiority thing, Steph is, is
huge.
Uh, and I've caught myselfthroughout my journey.
Feeling superior or trying todemonstrate that I'm superior,
(16:34):
uh, and, and understanding thesubtypes really helped me
understand that that's all justa masquerade because it's really
rooted in a deep sense ofinferiority, a fear of
defectiveness.
Stephanie Barron Hall (16:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I think that's sodifficult and like, so isolating
because you're wanting somethingdifferent.
You're wanting a sense of worthor a sense of connection with
other people.
And what you're getting is,well, pushing people away maybe
sometimes.
Reagan Pugh (17:07):
Yeah, the, the language around push pull that a
force have is, is, is reallyimportant.
is also really appropriate todescribe my experience.
Um, this, uh, I want yourattention and your approval
desperately, but then when I getit, maybe it's not enough or
maybe it doesn't come in the waythat I thought it should.
And so I feel complicated aboutthat too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:30):
yeah.
And I think I really appreciatehow fours are able to
articulate.
This is how I think aboutthings.
And this is how I feel aboutthings.
Um, but I just always know thatanytime I put something out on
Instagram, or, you know, evenwhen I'm teaching in these
corporate workshops, the foursare going to have some
clarifications that they'd liketo add to what I share about
them, which is great.
You know, it's fine.
(17:51):
Like, I welcome that.
I want everyone to share fromtheir own experience, but it is
interesting how there's alwaysthat layer of nuance that
Forrest can add,
Reagan Pugh (17:59):
Yeah.
Well, because any general, uh,definition could never
appropriately describe me.
You, you, you might, you mightget me 98 percent right, but not
a hundred percent.
No way.
Stephanie Barron Hall (18:10):
Right.
So this is a question that I amjust thinking about as we're
chatting about this, but like,what was it like for you to
recognize how emotional youtruly are?
Cause in some ways the angermasks it, right?
But recognizing your coreemotionality, you're a man in
Texas and you may be, have beentold you're not allowed to be
(18:38):
emotional.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (18:42):
Yeah, I never, I've struggled with my sense of
masculinity, um, having been adeep feeler from a young age who
hit puberty really, really late.
So in middle school, um, sports,I just wasn't as competitive.
(19:06):
And and then as a four once Ididn't seem to be, um, able to
keep up with everyone that justreinforced the sense of
defectiveness.
And so, uh, I ran to things liketheater and I became an English
major and I found these ways toexpress myself, um, and enjoyed
(19:27):
and really did well in thosethings.
But man, I, um, I recall this,uh, this, this, this constant
storyline of, um, you know,you're not that much of a,
you're not that much of a gogetter.
You're not as masculine as youcould be.
Um, and my guy friends, youknow, I, I was forced to have
really good friends, but Irecall particularly after
(19:49):
college is we were all kind ofnavigating the first steps of
our career, but he's being like,dude, what was your killer
instinct?
Where's your killer instinct,man?
Like are you going to hustle?
And I just remember feeling thisdeep sense of shame that I was
so tripped up by this emotionalrollercoaster that I was on that
(20:12):
I couldn't seem to move into theonly currency that most other
men were dealing in, which isaction, movement, productivity.
Stephanie Barron Hall (20:26):
Yeah.
And I think I'm sure that wouldadd to that feeling of being
defective and it's, it's reallychallenging.
I think, you know, I see a lotof women, I remember myself when
I was in that same age rangedoing a job interview and asking
like, where do you see yourselfin five years?
And I asked like the highestranked person on the table,
(20:47):
what's your job title?
I'll take that one.
And like, I just remember alwaysgetting the feedback, like,
chill out.
Like, ambition is a dirty word.
You know what I mean?
So it's interesting how likethat gender dynamic can come
into play when we, you know,there's something a little bit
(21:08):
natural about it.
Um, that's like, there's somesort of innate sense of how we
actually are, regardless ofgender.
Reagan Pugh (21:17):
so you felt like you had to suppress that and
hide that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:21):
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (21:24):
That must have been hard.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:26):
Yeah.
I mean, We all get a lot offeedback, right?
And so I would always getfeedback, like, you're not
supportive or you're notcompassionate or things like
that, which is shocking to me,because I do feel like I'm those
things, but that's probably, uh,the main characteristic that I
lead with.
So, you know, it's all like alearning process of, of learning
(21:49):
to balance and also why I thinkthe Enneagram is helpful.
Like, um, when I talk withpeople, um, On teams, I ask,
well, what's some feedback thatyou've gotten throughout your
career?
And often that will tell ussomething about their type,
right?
Um, cause it hurts, but it'sstill kind of true.
Reagan Pugh (22:09):
Oh my goodness.
So because I'm a forward, andI'm so interested in personal
development and understandingwho I am, I remember early in my
professional career, I was toldsend out an email to people who
know you well and ask them someof these questions about you.
And I, so you can understand howto package yourself.
And I remember that the feedbackcoming back, Stephanie, and this
(22:31):
is actually where the title formy book came.
I remember the feedback comingback and the feedback I received
was, um, Emotional, tooemotional, you're, you would
have so much potential if youdidn't let your emotions get in
the way and that was a deadringer for what my type ended up
being.
Stephanie Barron Hall (22:47):
And I bet that fixed everything, right?
Reagan Pugh (22:49):
Oh yeah, you know, yeah man, just been footloose
and fancy free since then.
Stephanie Barron Hall (22:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour book title to emotional.
Was that something youimmediately gravitated toward,
or did you kind of brainstormthat?
Did it come before the book,after the book?
Reagan Pugh (23:10):
Yeah, I don't know how it's supposed to work when
you write a book, but it camebefore I remember where I was.
We were in New Mexico and I hada manuscript of another book
that I started.
Yeah.
And it just wasn't singing theway I wanted it to.
And I knew I had to make a pivotand I got the advice.
(23:30):
Write the book to your youngerself, which is cheesy as it is.
It's a great piece of advice.
Um, write what you know.
Um, and I thought, man, whatbrings tears to my eyes?
Um, it's thinking about myyounger self and in the hard
lessons that he's learned.
(23:52):
Um.
This idea of writing a book forpeople who experience their
emotions and confuse them forreality feels really true and
too emotional came up and thenthe book followed.
Stephanie Barron Hall (24:05):
Yeah.
So the whole title is TooEmotional, Overcome the
Thunderstorm of Feelings, Shame,and Self Doubt.
Um, and I'm curious to hear alittle bit more about that shame
piece and how do you see thatplaying a role in your life, but
also in other people's lives?
Because my sense reading thebook was not that it was like,
(24:28):
Hey, all fours come over hereand read this book.
But like anyone who identifieswith that theme of being too
emotional, and it seems likeshame.
Is obviously going to be a bigpart of that as well.
Reagan Pugh (24:40):
Certainly.
Um, yeah, the hope is that thatall heart types certainly can,
can find a little bit ofthemselves in the book and that
people who are in relationshipwith them can as well.
Um, when I think about shame,um, I wish I could credit
whoever said it, but there's theline about how, you know, guilt
(25:01):
is whenever you feel bad aboutsomething you did.
Shame is when you feel bad aboutwho you are.
And I think the way that shamehas shown up in my life and in
the lives of the people that Ihope to be able to serve, it's
just kind of this constantcloud.
It's like thunderstorm that'sover you.
(25:22):
That tents everything.
with negative, with negativebeliefs about yourself.
And it's like, uh, you kind ofwander around thinking, uh,
well, I must've done somethingwrong or the shoes about to
drop.
Um, and it's all my fault.
Uh, it kind of comes down tothis idea that things aren't
(25:44):
going the way that I want themto, and somehow it must be my
fault.
And, uh, I think that's the waythat, that it shows up most.
Stephanie Barron Hall (25:53):
Yeah.
I think I remember Brene Brownsaying that about shame and
guilt.
Shame is just such a powerfulforce and even looking at some
some things that happen in ourchildhoods and like how they
really are very sticky becauseof the shame aspect of it.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (26:10):
Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to get my, my hands
around, uh, a more cleardefinition here.
Uh, but when I, I definitelycan't look back to the childhood
and kind of feeling like therewas always like a, I'm in
trouble or I did something wrongkind of a thing.
(26:30):
And so then that pervades therest of your life.
And even whenever you've gotgood intentions, it's hard to be
able to believe, uh, I'm good.
And that's a hard thing toexperience.
That's baked in there.
Stephanie Barron Hall (26:48):
I'm curious as I was reading your
book, I also really wanted toask about feelings just in
general, because a lot of youradvice is like, you know, kind
of separate from them.
And you even mentioned earlier,feelings are not reality, right?
Um, and I think that there is alevel where we can have
emotional truth without thingsbeing like objectively always
(27:10):
true.
Um, and I'm curious how you takethat guidance, like feel your
feelings.
People have been saying that alot in these past few years.
And I feel like every self help,anything is like, feel your
feelings, feel your feelings.
And I felt a little bit morelike your guidance was like, no,
no, no.
Don't feel all your feelings allthe time.
(27:33):
do you kind of navigate that?
Reagan Pugh (27:35):
So that is the guidance is, is, and with the
caveat that it's, my guidance isfor a specific audience.
And whenever you go to write abook, really scary because if
you want to write a book for areally specific audience, you
know, that maybe if you'retalking Enneagram language, I
may be isolating two thirds ofpotential readers who could be
(27:57):
head types or gut types becauseI'm writing for the heart types.
So if I'm talking to a head typeor a gut type, I'm like, yeah,
feel those feelings.
You should do it.
But for my heart types, when Ihear the feel the feelings
things, especially force, Ithink to myself, Uh, you know
what?
You're not going to escape fromunhelpful or negative feelings
(28:20):
by feeling more feelings likethat.
The currency doesn't work thatway.
And that's the cycle for a fourspecifically is I'm just going
to daisy chain a bunch offeelings onto one another.
Uh, and then I'm going to wallowin the melancholy.
Um, and so I, yeah, I hope that.
(28:42):
people reading the book whodon't really resonate with the
idea of feeling because the corestory of the book is there are
some people in the world whofeel defective and, and their
feelings have become their,their coping mechanism for that.
And if you don't resonate withthat, I hope that you can see
maybe what it looks like to bemore in touch with your
feelings.
Um, the, the transition in thebook is it, it closes with, um,
(29:09):
you know, Not all of ourfeelings are bad, and the
positive side for a four is thatwe deal in the language of
emotions.
And so whenever we can detachfrom unhelpful ones and when we
can identify helpful ones, wenow have this superpower because
(29:31):
there's plenty of people in ourlives who don't.
know how to get in touch withtheir feelings and feel adrift
whenever they do.
And Forge can be really helpfulcompanions to those people,
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:44):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, You know,it's, it's not so much feel them
or don't feel them.
It's more about like, have somesort of agency in, you know, how
deeply you're feeling them ornot feeling them, like not being
adrift either direction.
I'm curious if you can share,uh, there's a story that you
told about, um, being at like abar or brewery or something and
(30:07):
everyone is having a great time.
And you just hated it.
Mm
Reagan Pugh (30:11):
Yeah, yeah, is uh, uh, is the, I think the opening
story is, is we're at a, we'reat a dance hall and and I'm with
my boss and we had been crankingaway.
We rented a little house in theTexas Hill Country because we
need to do some work.
And so we've been cranking awayall day.
And he said, let's go out fordancing and beer out of Lucan
(30:33):
Bach, Texas, classic dance hall.
And, uh, There ended up beingthis group of moms who were out
for a girl's night.
They all had bedazzled jeans on,you know, and they wanted to two
step and my boss is charming.
He's a eight and he's got allthis energy and he's charming
and he's dancing and twirlingthem and one of them wants to
teach me and everybody's kind ofgrabbing at you, pulling me,
(30:55):
inviting me onto the dancefloor.
And for some reason from thedrive to where we were staying
to that dance hall that night, Igot in a funk.
And if you're an emotional type,you know what it means to get in
a funk.
And I remember just gluingmyself to my chair and sitting
alone with a pitcher of beer.
And I knew that I was in a funk.
(31:17):
I knew I was being melancholy.
I knew that it would be reallysimple for me to get up and join
the dance.
But for some reason I couldn'tsee through the fog of my
emotions.
And so I just stood there theentire evening and kind of made
it a little worse for everybodyelse.
Stephanie Barron Hall (31:33):
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (31:34):
And I can't tell you how many times that's
happened.
And for those people whoexperienced their emotions, they
know that those moments arehappening.
And then afterward, you, youmight go home and you look back
at the night and you might eventell yourself, I should have
danced.
I should have participated.
And
Stephanie Barron Hall (31:54):
Or you might say, what was wrong with
you in that
Reagan Pugh (31:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What was wrong with me in thatmoment?
Um, So the book is, is really,yeah, I wish it were, I wish it
were like more nuanced, but thebook is really a push for people
who spend their energy in theirinternal world to realize that
moving into the external worldand participating is going to
(32:17):
give them all the things thatthey think they're going to be
able to conjure with their selfreflection and their interior
Spelunky.
Stephanie Barron Hall (32:27):
Yeah.
What are some practices that youhave now that you're like in a
funk?
How do you manage that now?
Do you just like let yourself beand not judge it?
Do you go out with a friend?
Do you go for a run?
You know, what are the helpfulthings now?
Reagan Pugh (32:46):
The simple way of putting it is trying to bring
awareness to where am I, am I,am I living inside or am I
living my life in real life?
Like, am I living externally?
And if we can bring awareness,To moments when we are in the
book, I talk about taking yourinner elevator all the way down,
(33:09):
uh, if we can see when we'rejust like going down into our
inner elevator and findingsolace in the little cave where
we've got all of ourinsecurities and, and emotions,
uh, that allows us to say, okay,I got to do something outside.
And so what that looks like,some of the ideas that I share
(33:29):
are people.
Connecting with people, adefined collaboration.
If you're an emotional type,particularly the kind of person
I wrote the book for, you know,whenever you see someone call
you, you want to avoid the calland you don't want to pick up
the phone.
We suck at picking up the phone.
Uh, but I'll tell you what, apractice that I've tried is pick
up the phone when it rings.
Even if you can only say, Hey, Ican't talk very long, but I just
(33:52):
wanted to pick up and say,hello.
Stephanie Barron Hall (33:55):
yeah,
Reagan Pugh (33:56):
moving your body, changing your biology, going on
a run, getting out of the house,Emotional types can obsess over
creating the perfect day.
And oftentimes that might meanno disturbances from anyone
else, but oftentimes it'sconnecting with other people,
moving our body, asking forfeedback that works, um, moving
(34:17):
into action of any kind.
There's a tool called fake itfor five that I add in the book,
which is set a timer for fiveminutes.
And what I want you to do is Iwant you to pretend that you're
the kind of person who wants todo whatever you have to do.
And this is going to be hard,but just pretend.
And when five minutes is over,you can reassess.
And I'll tell you what, afterfive minutes, I've never not
(34:39):
wanted to continue what I'mdoing because motivation is not
a feeling that we summon.
Motivation is a result of ustaking action and feeling the
wind in our back.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:52):
yeah, yeah.
And I think that that is sochallenging to recognize
because, I'll speak from my ownexperience.
I used to always be that type ofperson who just always kind of
felt motivated, you know?
Um, and I just don't anymore.
Like a lot of the time I'm like,I don't feel like it.
And it just takes doingsomething to be like, all right,
(35:15):
I'm We can get this snowballgoing, you know, um, and then it
feels better.
Reagan Pugh (35:21):
absolutely.
But our behaviors shape ourbeliefs.
I think we need to observeourselves doing a thing that we
don't want to do to remindourselves to create the neural
pathways that we can do thosethings.
And Oh yeah, most often we feelbetter on the other end of any
sort of participation in ourreal life.
Stephanie Barron Hall (35:42):
Uh, but it's so hard to remember when
you're like, I don't want tothough.
I just want to keep reading.
That's my trap.
Reagan Pugh (35:48):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I, yeah.
Some people in this world callit opposite action.
You know, uh, an easy way ofthinking about it is whatever
your ego tells you, you need todo, just choose opposite action.
Um, and that's normally thehealthier thing.
Stephanie Barron Hall (36:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I wanted to ask about whenyou're writing for other people,
what do they need to know aboutbeing with somebody who is in
this too emotional space?
Reagan Pugh (36:17):
Yeah.
It's really dark and stormyinside someone who's in the
emotional space.
And, um, we're already downenough on ourselves.
So for people, dealing withthose of us in the emotional
space.
I think one thing that's helpfulto know is, uh, we're so, we're,
(36:38):
we're often very, very selfreflective.
And so we're already pretty,pretty clear on all the things
that we're not doing correctlyor all of the things we should
be doing.
Um, and we could probablyarticulate all of those things
to you.
Uh, the issue is just, uh, we,we can't move into the right,
the right action.
(36:58):
Um, so, you know, my wife, Ifshe had heard your others, this
book would have been done twoyears ago.
And Steph, it probably couldhave been, and it probably could
have been is the level ofquality it is today.
Um, but you know, we're reallynever going to learn anything
(37:19):
when someone pushes us intoaction.
We're going to have to learn howto take action for ourselves.
So my wife is the perfectexample for anyone who's looking
to be in relationship with a, anemotional type or a hard type.
She validates my feelings.
Um, she says things like thatmust be hard and she doesn't try
(37:42):
to make me things, do things,um, that I don't want to do.
Um, and for people who aremotivated by action, that can
seem really frustrating,perhaps.
But I've found that her brand ofpartnership, Um, really works,
uh, because the real thing thatneeds to happen for us emotional
(38:06):
types or for those of us whofeel defective, isn't that we
learn to start taking action.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:12):
Right.
Reagan Pugh (38:13):
that's a bandaid.
We need to remember that we'rewhole and that there's nothing
wrong with us.
And if someone else can help usfeel that, I think that's the
greatest gift that they can begiven.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:26):
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (38:27):
And if you're trying to use feelings to
motivate your action.
Right.
So as a sexual for man, I canhave a month where I'm like
inspired and driven and I'mrunning off of feeling.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:41):
Mm hmm.
Reagan Pugh (38:41):
Um, but guess what?
Our feelings are really fickle.
And so when the feelings change,you know, all of a sudden the
output changes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (38:55):
trust that moving to the virtue of a four, it's
gotta be the trust in thisequanimity.
That, um, I'm whole and I amgood and I'm no better or no
worse than anyone else.
I have an invitation toparticipate as well.
Stephanie Barron Hall (39:15):
Yeah.
I love, when I first learned theEnneagram and I heard equanimity
for fours, I was like, hmm, I'mnot sure I really get it, but
like.
Over the years, it just is sobeautiful to think about that
concept of just being like oneof the people, like one of all
of these beautiful people andnot having to stand out in
(39:35):
either direction.
Um, and I know for a lot of fouris that they, that feels really
scary and really like, why wouldyou ever want that?
Um, but I think all of ourvirtues feel a little bit like
that along
Reagan Pugh (39:49):
Certainly.
Yeah.
there's a great release comeswhenever you realize I don't
have to prove anything.
Stephanie Barron Hall (39:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, earlier you mentioned sexualfour being like the angriest
type on the Enneagram.
You mentioned you had a boss whowas an eight, and I'm curious
for you, how did you know thatyou were a sexual four and not
an eight?
Like how do you see that?
Reagan Pugh (40:14):
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
I guess who I get along withreally well.
Apes.
One of my best friends here inAustin is an ape.
And I remember the day that hesaid he had to ask me some
advice about how he handled asituation and he prefaced it
with, so I need your advice as abrother in anger.
Uh,
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:34):
I love that.
Reagan Pugh (40:36):
So we can, you know, ramp each other up like
two dogs in a backyard, youknow, and the.
The way that I was able to tellthe difference is, uh, whenever
my friends who are eights raninto roadblocks or ran into
disappointments, um, or, or, uh,things didn't go the way that
(40:56):
they wanted.
Um, Their level of energy andconfidence and their ability to
move forward did not waver.
In some ways, this desire to goagainst, they were even more
motivated to just like get amonkey wrench and figure the
thing out.
Uh, as a four, when you run intoroadblocks or disappointments or
(41:17):
things don't go the way that youthought they would go, or you
don't get the affirmation youthought you would.
The default mechanism is toretreat into your internal world
to say what's wrong with me tomove toward melancholy and
shame.
And often that looks like a lackof action.
So roadblocks make AIDS goharder?
(41:37):
For a four, I've noticed theywould make me want to lay on the
couch for three days.
Stephanie Barron Hall (41:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Um, Well, and I think one of thebig similarities that I see and
why you might get along so wellis that desire for that
authenticity and transparencyand just really kind of laying
it all out there and, and, um,having that intensity about
life, but then you do completelydifferent things with that.
Reagan Pugh (42:03):
Yeah, yeah.
With my eight, we do a yearlyretreat for some men that I'm
close with.
And for the longest time, uh,there was a, you know, a three
and a four in the group.
And I would say, Hey, okay guys,this year, anytime you notice me
stepping out of line or anytimeyou notice me not being true to
the goals I set for the year, Iwant you to tell me, I want you
to hold me accountable.
(42:24):
And they would always say thatthey would in January and then
never wants the entire yearwhere they call me out on my BS
or push me.
But we added an eight to the mixthis last year and it's May and
already he's come to me and beenlike, dude, you're not pushing.
Like you said, you would.
Hey, you said you wanted thisand your actions aren't aligning
(42:44):
with it.
And I love it.
I love it.
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:49):
man.
It's funny because I thinkthrees can be direct and
certainly for me.
Somebody tries to drop a hintstraight over my head.
I have no idea.
Like, what?
Is that a hint?
Uh, but I think threes can bemore, um, conflict avoidant than
(43:10):
people expect because they'reheart types.
And threes are like, all thetime when I teach this, people
are like, threes are like, I'mnot a heart type.
And then I teach about threesand I'm like, okay, nevermind,
you know,
Reagan Pugh (43:23):
Yeah.
So what's behind that?
Because I think threes, justlike other heart types are still
dealing in the language ofrelationships.
Like that's, that's a coreconcern for them.
Right.
Uh, but, and, and so, but thenwhat is that?
Help me understand why thatthere seems to be resistance to
(43:46):
being more direct.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:49):
um, I think that there's just such a
consideration of like, what dothey think about me or what will
they think if I do this or if Isay this and, and I think that
threes.
Um, and I think, you know, Ithink self preservation threes
might be like, well, maybethey're borrowing a little bit
from their nine wing thinking,uh, maybe I'll just not rock the
boat, you know, I think selfpreservation threes can be more
(44:10):
direct, but in general, they'remore reserved.
Um, so they're not always theone who's gonna kind of call
somebody out.
Reagan Pugh (44:19):
Got it.
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:20):
But I think threes are a lot, uh,
they're just not as assertiveas, as eights are a lot of the
time, unless they're backed upagainst a wall and like having
to prove themselves.
But if they feel really securein a relationship, they don't
feel that same drive to like, Ihave to show you how great I am,
or I have to prove myself orinspire or impress you.
(44:41):
Um, and so, which is a greatspace for a three to be in, in a
relationship, right, of like nothaving to impress people.
Um, but.
It does mean I think thatthere's less of the
assertiveness outright.
Um, though in my mostcomfortable relationships, I'm
pretty confrontational and, butnot like in a bad way, I'm just
(45:03):
like, Hey, you know, what's upwith that?
And then we talk about it andit's fine.
Um, so it can be challenging forme to be in relationship with
people who can't handleconflict.
Um, I like to have everythingabove board, but.
Reagan Pugh (45:18):
I hear that.
Mm-hmm
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:20):
But maybe that's also the, we share the
same instinctual stacking.
Reagan Pugh (45:24):
We share the same one.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:27):
maybe that also plays, plays into it.
Reagan Pugh (45:30):
So with social, with you being social repressed,
um, what does that, what doesthat look like in your life?
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:39):
Um, well, I've had, had some really
difficult social experiences.
Um, whether that's from likewhen I was a kid and like being
bullied or, um, when just a fewyears ago I was in a community
and left and basically like lostall of my friendships.
Um, so I've had these thingshappen.
(46:01):
But now I am very resistant tojoining like groups, even groups
that I know will be good for me.
Um, like I'm very much like, Oh,I don't know, like, I don't want
to label myself that I'm justlike not a joiner in that sense.
Um, and and even, you know, whenI was in college and there'd be
school spirit days, I'd be like,Ugh, I'm not doing that
Reagan Pugh (46:24):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:25):
school to, you know, middle school,
high school people like comelike decked out in the school
colors.
And I'm like, I'm not doingthat.
Reagan Pugh (46:32):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:35):
And so I think some people in my life
definitely thought I was a fourwhen we first were learning the
Enneagram because of that, but Iactually think it has more to do
with being social repressed.
Reagan Pugh (46:44):
Yeah.
Oh, that makes sense.
I think for, for me, it, it kindof looks like fearing what?
Social interactions are going torequire of me, uh, worrying
about the energy spent and ifI'm going to be able to perform
(47:09):
adequately.
So here's this envy showing up,uh, again, uh, where I'm in the
sexual instinct, where am Igoing to stack at the party?
And so being social oppressed, Ioften feel like I, I have a lot
of pre anxiety about socialinteractions.
Because as a self referencingfor I'm going, I imagine that
(47:32):
everyone after the party, afterI leave is going to have a
conversation in a smoke filledroom.
Like did he stack up to what wethought he would be like, was
he, or was he just kind of likeoverblown?
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (47:45):
It's so funny how all of our work, our
brains like work differentlyabout those sorts of things and
how even like the socialrepress.
Then can be different because Idefinitely have social anxiety
and I feel very anxious, but Ialso, in my mind I connect that
to feedback I've gotten abouthow I show up in different
spaces, you know?
(48:05):
So I connected to that versusthinking, Oh, in the future,
they're going to judge me.
It's like, huh?
Last time I talked to somebody,they thought this about me.
Reagan Pugh (48:17):
man.
Those stories, that feedbackthat we hang on to that, don't
we?
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:21):
Hmm.
Reagan Pugh (48:22):
Gosh, that's tough.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:24):
Yeah.
It's like that Rick Hansenquote, we're Techlan for the
positive and velcro for thenegative.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (48:34):
one.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:39):
Um, do you have any other practical
advice for fours who might belistening?
Reagan Pugh (48:48):
Yeah.
In our, in our work, you know,we have a hard time finishing
things.
We have a far a hard time makingcontributions in work.
We have a hard time being aworker among workers because we
want everything to bemeaningful, and we want
everything to feel like it'sfull of purpose.
(49:11):
And it's really difficult for usto summon motivation anyway.
And especially it's difficultfor us to summon motivation when
we don't feel like there's somebig existential reason why we're
doing our work.
So in the workplace for four isthe thing that I like to guide
people toward is you need to getreally great at doing unsexy
(49:33):
work.
You need to, you need to bereally, you need to learn the
practice of just moving throughthings because here's the deal,
force always worry, uh, it, Isthis unique enough?
Is there going to be enoughmeaning in this work?
And what they don't realize isinherently a four is already so
nuanced and so introspectiveThat if you were to just start
(49:55):
making regular contributionsthat you actually put into the
world You cannot help but addyour unique flavor to that.
You cannot help but make itmeaningful and intentional so
Just do things, just submitideas, just do unsexy work.
And then you're going to be ableto look back and you're going to
(50:17):
be able to see where there wasmeaning infused in all of that.
That's in the workplace.
In relationships, we have to getbetter at realizing that
everything is not about us.
And we have to realize thatbecause we're worried that
everyone's overlooking us, we'regoing to try and haunt the
(50:39):
spotlight because we believethat we need as much affirmation
as we can get.
Um, but what we're really after,what we're really after is
connection.
We're after the opposite of theisolation that we feel.
And the way that we get that isby doing the opposite of what
our default programming tells usto do, which is make it about
(51:01):
other people, be of service, letthem share their experience,
talk about what they want totalk about.
Even if it's not meaningful toyou, uh, there's a line I use in
the book sometimes for a four orsomeone who's too emotional.
Small talk can be an act ofservice.
(51:21):
Just follow someone else'sagenda.
Stephanie Barron Hall (51:25):
Yeah.
And I think that act of movingtoward people instead of always
moving away and like kind ofinviting people to chase you can
be really helpful because Ithink fours want to feel
pursued.
Um, but in a lot ofrelationships, That's not how
they work.
Some relationships do, but a lotof them don't.
(51:45):
Um, and it can leave you feelingreally like nobody actually
wants you, when in reality theydo.
They just are like, do you wantto show up to meet me halfway
here?
Reagan Pugh (51:57):
Absolutely.
The emotions that cloud ourjudgment, uh, prevent us from
seeing the reality, um, andadmitting that, uh, we can't,
we're not so special that we getto get all of the positive
things in life without doing anyof the work.
So.
(52:18):
When you're unconscious as afour, it's easy to look around
and play a victim and say, noone's pursuing me, uh, nobody,
no, nobody, I don't, my, myfriends aren't my true friends.
Uh, but whenever you start to beable to see that emotion, bring
awareness to it, accept thatthat's a coping mechanism, and
then wonder what your part is init.
You can start to say, when's thelast time I reached out to them?
(52:42):
Or when's the last time I showedup for them without their
request?
And you can slowly start to seewhere equinamity plays a part.
I'm no better or worse of afriend than them.
Uh, eventually someone's goingto have to go first to keep this
relationship going.
I can be the person to go firstthis time.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's such good advice.
Well, before we get into yourlast two questions, where can
people find you?
And most importantly, by yourbook?
Um, because I just saw thecover, it's So lovely.
I can't wait for people to readit.
And I'm gonna order one myselftoo, even though I already read
the PDF, but I'm gonna read it
Reagan Pugh (53:19):
you, Thank you, Steph.
Uh, I'm at reaganpugh.
com.
R E A G A N P U G H.
com.
We decided it was a good idea tolaunch a new website and a new
book in the same week, which wasstupid and crazy, but we did it.
So information on book and,thank you.
Information on book and speakingis there.
Um, or you can just search tooemotional and Amazon and the
(53:44):
book is there.
And I'd love to connect onInstagram at Reagan, Pugh, R E H
E A N P U G H.
Stephanie Barron Hall (53:50):
Perfect.
I will link all of that up inthe show notes.
So final two questions I askeveryone.
Tell me about a book that hashelped you, refreshed you, or
shaped you in the last year.
Reagan Pugh (54:01):
Have you read 4, 000 weeks by Oliver Berkman?
Stephanie Barron Hall (54:04):
Yeah,
Reagan Pugh (54:05):
Oh,
Stephanie Barron Hall (54:05):
such a good one.
Reagan Pugh (54:07):
I think it was like the best one in the last two
years for me.
Um, the reason why it was sohelpful is because the subtitle
of the book is time managementfor mortals.
And it's a little bit of adifferent time management book
because it doesn't necessarilytell you how to be more
productive or get more done.
What it helps to is it helpsshift your perspective to
(54:29):
realize that, you know what,actually we have such a small
amount of time on this earth andactually we're all pretty
insignificant.
Um, and we're going to die.
And you know what the greatestgift of freedom, uh, can be is
realizing that, uh, life is soshort and we're so insignificant
and we're just a blip on thetimeline of the universe.
(54:50):
So hopefully it gives youfreedom to have the courage to
do whatever it is you want todo.
And I think that's really goodadvice for a four.
Stephanie Barron Hall (54:58):
Yeah, such good advice.
And I think, you know, formyself as well, it was So
impactful because it really didhelp me also see I'm expecting
so much of myself.
Like he talks about thesestudies where you can only
really do three to four hours ofdeep work a day.
But as a, um, you know, solobusiness owner, a lot of the
(55:19):
time I'm like, Oh, I'm notfocusing for eight hours
straight every single day.
And I would beat myself up aboutthat.
And it's helpful for me to justconstantly remind myself it's
okay.
I can't do eight hours of likeWriting a day, you know, things
like that.
Reagan Pugh (55:38):
Right,
Stephanie Barron Hall (55:39):
that.
little darkness of timemanagement for mortals of like,
like just bring death front ofmind.
I'm sure that really got to youas a four, just like that
darkness of that image.
You're like, yes.
Reagan Pugh (55:49):
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah that yeah the stoicphilosophy of the kind of
memento mori the meditate onyour death Yeah.
Really helpful.
Stephanie Barron Hall (55:58):
Uh, so what is a piece of advice that
has really stuck with you?
Reagan Pugh (56:04):
I'll go back to the the idea that We're not going to
find freedom from our unhelpfulfeelings by feeling more
feelings Uh, life is lived outin the world and I'm so lucky to
be married to a seven who dragsme out into the world.
(56:25):
Um, but participating in one'slife looks like including others
and, and, and taking action.
And when we do that, we canwitness ourselves becoming
different.
And I think participation is thecore theme that has benefited me
(56:47):
the most.
Stephanie Barron Hall (56:50):
That's such fantastic advice.
Thanks so much for coming onhere today and sharing all of
your wisdom.
It's been a great conversationand I can't wait for everyone to
get their hands on your newbook.
Reagan Pugh (57:01):
Thank you, Steph.
This was a gift.
Steph Barron Hall (57:03):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway
(57:24):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(57:45):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
So in the workplace for four is the thing that I
(00:03):
like to guide people toward isyou need to get really great at
doing unsexy work.
Because here's the deal, forcealways worry, Is this unique
enough?
Is there going to be enoughmeaning in this work?
And what they don't realize isinherently a four is already so
nuanced and so introspectiveThat if you were to just start
(00:24):
making regular contributionsthat you actually put into the
world You cannot help but addyour unique flavor to that.
You cannot help but make itmeaningful and intentional so
Just do things, just submitideas, just do unsexy work.
And then you're going to be ableto look back and you're going to
(00:45):
be able to see where there wasmeaning infused in all of that.
Hello and welcome to any gram inreal life.
The podcast where we explore howto apply our Enneagram knowledge
in our daily lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie Barronhall.
And on today's episode, I amtalking with author writer,
(01:10):
speaker facilitator, Reagan,pew.
So Reagan is a type four on theEnneagram and he just wrote a
book called too emotional.
And this is all about howforests can delve into their
emotions without getting stuckin them and learning to have a
different and more balancedrelationship with their
emotions.
(01:31):
And I think what I hear frompeople most of the time is that
we need to be more in touch withour emotions.
And so Reagan and I kind oftalked about that paradox as
well, where we see, you know,with fours, one of the
challenges can be getting sostuck and, and they're feeling
stuck in their emotions.
So Reagan has written this bookabout how to navigate.
(01:54):
Life as a four and it's calledto emotional, overcome the
thunderstorm feelings, shame andself doubt.
So I think this is a greatlesson for fours, of course, but
also if you love force, um, andmany of us do, and many of us
have fours, our wives, and wecould really benefit from
understanding this from theirperspective.
So.
Check out his book, um, on hiswebsite, which is Reagan
(02:17):
pew.com.
So R E a G a N P U G h.com or.
On Instagram at Reagan pew.
And all of that is linked in theshow notes.
So I really hope you enjoy thisepisode.
I'm going to share a little bitabout his bio and then we'll
jump in.
Reagan pew.
Isn't a writer, speaker, andfacilitator.
(02:37):
His focus is helping regularfolks understand themselves so
they can improve relationships,find meaning in work and live
more intentional lives.
Reagan speaks to thousands ofpeople each year at
organizations across sectorsfrom corporate clients like
Facebook, Pepsi, and Whirlpoolto nonprofits, like meals on
wheels and the American redcross to associations and
(02:58):
professional organizations.
Prior to writing and speakingfull time, Reagan guided
programs on storytelling,culture and leadership at
companies like Nike, Westerndigital, and Kimberly Clark with
a global management consultingfirm.
Reagan started his career as ahigh school teacher.
And he since designed and taughtleadership courses on multiple
(03:19):
university campuses and enjoyspeaking to college audiences.
Around the country havingvisited over 50 universities to
date.
He has a TEDx speaker, longtimeblogger and frequent podcasts
guest.
You can read more of Reagan'swriting by subscribing to his
semi-regular blog on hiswebsite.
There, you will also finddetails about booking Reagan to
(03:40):
speak at your event or work withyour team.
And you can also purchase hisbook.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Regan peel.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:49):
Well, Regan Pugh, welcome to the
podcast.
Reagan Pugh (03:52):
So glad to be here, Steph.
Thank you for having me.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:55):
Yeah.
I'm glad to chat with you.
We were just chatting about thisearlier, but we actually went to
the same church growing up.
Reagan Pugh (04:02):
Yeah, the, the IBC Irving Bible Church crew has
broad, uh, broad reaches and funto look back on that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:11):
Yeah.
It's so funny.
Um, so I'm glad that we wereactually able to connect through
Ellie as well.
And our listeners probably haveheard her on the podcast, Ellie
type seven, and she came andtalked about the Enneagram, but
today we're talking about yourstory and we will get started,
um, with your introduction, butI can't wait to also talk about
your book later.
Reagan Pugh (04:32):
Thank you.
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:33):
Yeah.
So first start out with anintro.
Who are you?
Give us a little bit of yourbackground.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (04:42):
is started writing in a journal in seventh grade,
capturing thoughts, capturingjournals.
And now to this day, when wemove, I've got journals
chronicling my whole life fromseventh grade on.
I've got them in a big duffelbag.
And the joke that Ellie offersis always, uh, so who's going to
(05:04):
help us move Reagan's baggage tothe next house?
Um, so there was always thisdeep, um, deep desire to know
myself, uh, a, a, a, a deep pulltoward introspection and wanting
to make sure that I was livinglife correctly and understanding
what's going on and what myplace was in the world.
(05:26):
Um, always felt like a littlebit of an outsider looking in.
And even though I did stuff likestudent government, got class
president in school, um, Istill, uh, is a four.
Wondered if, if everybody wasreally genuine in their approval
or not.
Um, but felt a deep pull as apreacher's kid toward, you know,
(05:49):
Helping people understand themeaning of life, um, and pushing
people toward purpose.
So that rolled into my first jobas a 10th grade teacher and
loved teaching 10th gradeEnglish.
And you know, that teachingEnglish was great.
I was an English major incollege.
Uh, but there was also thoseopportunities sandwiched in to
help these young people who aretrying to figure out who they
(06:11):
are answer some big lifequestions.
So then education kind ofcontinued to be a theme.
I, I worked with a nonprofitafter that, that developed a
leadership curriculum forcollege students.
And so I got to teach a coupleof college courses in business
leadership and loved that.
Rolled into managementconsulting for five or six
(06:31):
years, which also allowed me todo training in personal
professional development for theclients that we had.
So education guiding a group ofpeople toward understanding
things, uh, is a way for me toalso continue this inner
Spelunking to understand who,who I am.
And then, you know, five or sixyears ago, I thought, well, what
does it look like for me to goout as a speaker trainer
(06:53):
facilitator on my own?
And so for that, that's been thestory for the past five or six
years, I'll do workshops andkeynotes on personal
development, mindset, ventureinto time management, all that
kind of stuff.
And the hope is that the newbook called Too Emotional is
going to help me focus mymessaging a little bit because I
(07:14):
think right now some of mymessaging is a little scattered
and I really want to be able tofocus on the interior journey
that people are navigating.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:23):
Yeah.
That's such a great, uh,succinct answer.
I think I could tell that youpractice that sharing about your
history and your journey.
Um, Enneagram fits in with allof that, because you have all
these different spots where youwere really invested in that
personal development side.
And so.
The Enneagram seems to be anatural fit.
Reagan Pugh (07:45):
The Enneagram was a natural fit.
Um, you know, I'm sure you'reprobably similar.
I knew all the Myers Briggs andStrengthsFinder stuff and on my
breaks at work would go toBarnes Noble and buy a book and
read it in the parking lot.
So I was happy in the beginningjust to add another tool of
(08:06):
personal understanding to thetool belt.
And like most people for a time,just viewed it as another way to
excuse my behavior.
Um, and I think the gift of theEnneagram and particularly what
Ellie, my wife, has helped merecognize is that, Yeah, it's
not a tool to tell you who youare.
(08:28):
It's a tool to tell you.
Uh, it's a, it's a tool to helpyou find freedom from the story
that your ego is telling youthat you are.
So I'll never forget when thatshift happened and I was able to
see that, Oh, I'm, I'm notsupposed to be excusing my
tendency toward being reallyemotional.
(08:49):
I'm supposed to find freedomfrom that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (08:54):
Yeah.
So I think you've hinted nowthat your type, so tell us about
your type, like finding yourtype and your subtype.
Reagan Pugh (09:05):
I don't know if we did the, me.
Um, personality test thing ornot, uh, I, you know, you hear
that what you're supposed to dois maybe not take a test, but
read all of the different types.
And then whichever one you wouldset the most is probably yours.
I don't know, but I rememberreading for and going, Oh geez,
(09:26):
that feels really close to home.
And then there was also somesort of a twisted pride in the
fact that it was named thetragic romantic.
Take your night.
Look back in my life and thoughtof all the times that I'd
wandered lonely and parks ofwith a journal and a book of
poetry Wondered why my lifewasn't what I thought it should
be.
I thought yeah, that soundsright.
(09:47):
Um that
Stephanie Barron Hall (09:49):
The tragic romantic.
I don't know if I've heard thatmoniker.
Reagan Pugh (09:55):
maybe I made it up but but is a way to excuse it
but that's it I thought yeah,I'm just uh It's fixed my whole
life feels like a black andwhite French movie, you know You
Uh,
Stephanie Barron Hall (10:16):
So then you found your, your type.
Reagan Pugh (10:18):
find the type.
Um, and again, in some ways thatthat allowed me, and I think
this is some, in some ways thegift of the Enneagram, because
that allowed me to say, well,I'm not the only one.
Uh, there's other people likeme.
Um, but I don't know that itreally became a tool for growth.
Until the subtypes wereintroduced, and I think that's
(10:41):
such a pivotal move for people.
Stephanie Barron Ha (10:45):
Absolutely.
So tell us about your subtype.
Reagan Pugh (10:47):
Um, you know, it's interesting, when you think
about the, when you look at theinstincts, self pres, social,
sexual, and then you look at theway that they map to the
subtypes, it's not always adirect match.
And, and so initially when Ilooked at the instincts, I
thought, well, I've got to beself press because I'm like very
(11:12):
concerned with, um, finances andthe order of our home and like
schedule.
Like if you were to see mycalendar stuff, like I'll like,
I like put on my calendarretroactively, like went to
grocery store, you know, likeit's cause I like to look back
and understand how my time wasutilized.
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:30):
Mm hmm.
Reagan Pugh (11:31):
And so with that desire toward kind of safety and
control, I thought self presshas to be what it is.
But thankfully, when we dugdeeper and again, with the help
from Ellie, my wife, uh, we, westarted, we definitely knew that
I was social repressed, which Iknow you are as well.
Um, and this idea that I mightbe a sexual force started to
(11:55):
bubble to the surface.
And then this language came outthat a sexual force, was the
angriest number on theEnneagram.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:03):
hmm.
Reagan Pugh (12:05):
I thought about all of the times in my life that I
felt like I was unseen, or Ifelt like I was not worth
people's time, or I felt like Iwas disrespected or overlooked,
and how angry that made me, andhow I carried around with me
(12:25):
this sort of resentment againstpeople who just seemed to
overlook me in this envy, whichis the passing of the war, for
the folks who seemed to Gettinglife right.
And then that maybe allowed meto say, could be a sexual four.
Um, yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:47):
So then how did that transform your
growth journey?
Because obviously you're like,okay, I already know I'm looking
at this emotional part.
And then now I'm looking at theanger part.
And I'm sure you've heard theadage, which I actually think is
really rude, but I've heard forus say that it feels true to
them that sexual floors makeothers suffer,
Reagan Pugh (13:09):
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hal (13:10):
especially when they feel misunderstood.
Reagan Pugh (13:13):
Uh, yeah, that's true.
That's that's true.
Um, yeah.
If I, if I'm gonna suffer,you're gonna suffer too.
Uh, and, and, you know, there's,there's several sections.
The, the book is, is split upinto kind of relationship with
self, relationship with others,and relationship with work.
(13:33):
And in the relationship withothers section, I basically
tried and list all of the waysin which force can, can put
other people through the ringer.
And so there's sections titledand causing other people to walk
on eggshells or not acceptingapologies the first time.
Um, because yeah, there's this,there's this sense that I've,
(13:58):
I've been wronged or that I'mdefective.
Um, and that.
Other people aren't noticingthat other people are
empathizing with that.
And so I'm not going to get themicrophone unless I take it.
I'm not going to get attentionfrom other people unless I force
it.
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:16):
Yeah.
And I think that plays intothat, right?
I mean, so for our listeners, alot of people might not know a
lot about the sexual forcesubtype, um, because different
people teach it differently.
Of course.
Um, so we have the selfpreservation for, they tend to
be more, um, inward for us.
Actually, I think this is a bigmisnomer or misconception for us
(14:37):
can be very task oriented, um,at times, and especially when
they're really motivated to dosomething.
So, uh, self preservation for ustend to show up.
Actually, sexual fours do this alittle bit too, but tend to show
up a lot more like threes.
They're very, um, driven.
They feel a lot.
They're very sensitive, but theydon't show people.
And I think all fours putgargantuan energy into showing
(15:00):
up appropriately at work becausethey've gotten so much feedback
that they're too emotional.
Right.
We'll talk about too emotional.
Right.
Um, and then social fours, um,they're often called, so sexual,
Self preservation fours arecalled tenacity, social fours
are called shame, and they havelike, they're just a softer kind
(15:21):
of four.
Um, they tend to be really warm,really loving, and they have
more of a sadness that they kindof wear on their sleeve a little
bit more.
Um, so even when they feelreally happy, they also have
like this real tenderness aboutthem.
Um, and they're just like verysweet, kind people.
Um, and.
(15:41):
Not to say that the other two,four subtypes aren't, but that's
not how they lead, um, in theworld.
And sexual force tend to be verydriven.
They're very competitive andthey have this real sense of,
you know, inferiority andsuperior and, um, superiority.
So like everyone is eitherbetter or worse.
Nobody's equal.
Reagan Pugh (15:59):
Amen.
Stephanie Barron Hall (16:00):
And so that's a driving force.
So when you, what is it called?
Oh, it's called competition.
when you're like, okay, that,that fits for me.
Reagan Pugh (16:11):
Yeah.
You, you're constantly lookingaround and, and everything's a
scorecard and you're trying tounderstand, you know, where,
where am I in relation to otherpeople?
And I, the inferioritysuperiority thing, Steph is, is
huge.
Uh, and I've caught myselfthroughout my journey.
Feeling superior or trying todemonstrate that I'm superior,
(16:34):
uh, and, and understanding thesubtypes really helped me
understand that that's all justa masquerade because it's really
rooted in a deep sense ofinferiority, a fear of
defectiveness.
Stephanie Barron Hall (16:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I think that's sodifficult and like, so isolating
because you're wanting somethingdifferent.
You're wanting a sense of worthor a sense of connection with
other people.
And what you're getting is,well, pushing people away maybe
sometimes.
Reagan Pugh (17:07):
Yeah, the, the language around push pull that a
force have is, is, is reallyimportant.
is also really appropriate todescribe my experience.
Um, this, uh, I want yourattention and your approval
desperately, but then when I getit, maybe it's not enough or
maybe it doesn't come in the waythat I thought it should.
And so I feel complicated aboutthat too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:30):
yeah.
And I think I really appreciatehow fours are able to
articulate.
This is how I think aboutthings.
And this is how I feel aboutthings.
Um, but I just always know thatanytime I put something out on
Instagram, or, you know, evenwhen I'm teaching in these
corporate workshops, the foursare going to have some
clarifications that they'd liketo add to what I share about
them, which is great.
You know, it's fine.
(17:51):
Like, I welcome that.
I want everyone to share fromtheir own experience, but it is
interesting how there's alwaysthat layer of nuance that
Forrest can add,
Reagan Pugh (17:59):
Yeah.
Well, because any general, uh,definition could never
appropriately describe me.
You, you, you might, you mightget me 98 percent right, but not
a hundred percent.
No way.
Stephanie Barron Hall (18:10):
Right.
So this is a question that I amjust thinking about as we're
chatting about this, but like,what was it like for you to
recognize how emotional youtruly are?
Cause in some ways the angermasks it, right?
But recognizing your coreemotionality, you're a man in
Texas and you may be, have beentold you're not allowed to be
(18:38):
emotional.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (18:42):
Yeah, I never, I've struggled with my sense of
masculinity, um, having been adeep feeler from a young age who
hit puberty really, really late.
So in middle school, um, sports,I just wasn't as competitive.
(19:06):
And and then as a four once Ididn't seem to be, um, able to
keep up with everyone that justreinforced the sense of
defectiveness.
And so, uh, I ran to things liketheater and I became an English
major and I found these ways toexpress myself, um, and enjoyed
(19:27):
and really did well in thosethings.
But man, I, um, I recall this,uh, this, this, this constant
storyline of, um, you know,you're not that much of a,
you're not that much of a gogetter.
You're not as masculine as youcould be.
Um, and my guy friends, youknow, I, I was forced to have
really good friends, but Irecall particularly after
(19:49):
college is we were all kind ofnavigating the first steps of
our career, but he's being like,dude, what was your killer
instinct?
Where's your killer instinct,man?
Like are you going to hustle?
And I just remember feeling thisdeep sense of shame that I was
so tripped up by this emotionalrollercoaster that I was on that
(20:12):
I couldn't seem to move into theonly currency that most other
men were dealing in, which isaction, movement, productivity.
Stephanie Barron Hall (20:26):
Yeah.
And I think I'm sure that wouldadd to that feeling of being
defective and it's, it's reallychallenging.
I think, you know, I see a lotof women, I remember myself when
I was in that same age rangedoing a job interview and asking
like, where do you see yourselfin five years?
And I asked like the highestranked person on the table,
(20:47):
what's your job title?
I'll take that one.
And like, I just remember alwaysgetting the feedback, like,
chill out.
Like, ambition is a dirty word.
You know what I mean?
So it's interesting how likethat gender dynamic can come
into play when we, you know,there's something a little bit
(21:08):
natural about it.
Um, that's like, there's somesort of innate sense of how we
actually are, regardless ofgender.
Reagan Pugh (21:17):
so you felt like you had to suppress that and
hide that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:21):
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (21:24):
That must have been hard.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:26):
Yeah.
I mean, We all get a lot offeedback, right?
And so I would always getfeedback, like, you're not
supportive or you're notcompassionate or things like
that, which is shocking to me,because I do feel like I'm those
things, but that's probably, uh,the main characteristic that I
lead with.
So, you know, it's all like alearning process of, of learning
(21:49):
to balance and also why I thinkthe Enneagram is helpful.
Like, um, when I talk withpeople, um, On teams, I ask,
well, what's some feedback thatyou've gotten throughout your
career?
And often that will tell ussomething about their type,
right?
Um, cause it hurts, but it'sstill kind of true.
Reagan Pugh (22:09):
Oh my goodness.
So because I'm a forward, andI'm so interested in personal
development and understandingwho I am, I remember early in my
professional career, I was toldsend out an email to people who
know you well and ask them someof these questions about you.
And I, so you can understand howto package yourself.
And I remember that the feedbackcoming back, Stephanie, and this
(22:31):
is actually where the title formy book came.
I remember the feedback comingback and the feedback I received
was, um, Emotional, tooemotional, you're, you would
have so much potential if youdidn't let your emotions get in
the way and that was a deadringer for what my type ended up
being.
Stephanie Barron Hall (22:47):
And I bet that fixed everything, right?
Reagan Pugh (22:49):
Oh yeah, you know, yeah man, just been footloose
and fancy free since then.
Stephanie Barron Hall (22:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour book title to emotional.
Was that something youimmediately gravitated toward,
or did you kind of brainstormthat?
Did it come before the book,after the book?
Reagan Pugh (23:10):
Yeah, I don't know how it's supposed to work when
you write a book, but it camebefore I remember where I was.
We were in New Mexico and I hada manuscript of another book
that I started.
Yeah.
And it just wasn't singing theway I wanted it to.
And I knew I had to make a pivotand I got the advice.
(23:30):
Write the book to your youngerself, which is cheesy as it is.
It's a great piece of advice.
Um, write what you know.
Um, and I thought, man, whatbrings tears to my eyes?
Um, it's thinking about myyounger self and in the hard
lessons that he's learned.
(23:52):
Um.
This idea of writing a book forpeople who experience their
emotions and confuse them forreality feels really true and
too emotional came up and thenthe book followed.
Stephanie Barron Hall (24:05):
Yeah.
So the whole title is TooEmotional, Overcome the
Thunderstorm of Feelings, Shame,and Self Doubt.
Um, and I'm curious to hear alittle bit more about that shame
piece and how do you see thatplaying a role in your life, but
also in other people's lives?
Because my sense reading thebook was not that it was like,
(24:28):
Hey, all fours come over hereand read this book.
But like anyone who identifieswith that theme of being too
emotional, and it seems likeshame.
Is obviously going to be a bigpart of that as well.
Reagan Pugh (24:40):
Certainly.
Um, yeah, the hope is that thatall heart types certainly can,
can find a little bit ofthemselves in the book and that
people who are in relationshipwith them can as well.
Um, when I think about shame,um, I wish I could credit
whoever said it, but there's theline about how, you know, guilt
(25:01):
is whenever you feel bad aboutsomething you did.
Shame is when you feel bad aboutwho you are.
And I think the way that shamehas shown up in my life and in
the lives of the people that Ihope to be able to serve, it's
just kind of this constantcloud.
It's like thunderstorm that'sover you.
(25:22):
That tents everything.
with negative, with negativebeliefs about yourself.
And it's like, uh, you kind ofwander around thinking, uh,
well, I must've done somethingwrong or the shoes about to
drop.
Um, and it's all my fault.
Uh, it kind of comes down tothis idea that things aren't
(25:44):
going the way that I want themto, and somehow it must be my
fault.
And, uh, I think that's the waythat, that it shows up most.
Stephanie Barron Hall (25:53):
Yeah.
I think I remember Brene Brownsaying that about shame and
guilt.
Shame is just such a powerfulforce and even looking at some
some things that happen in ourchildhoods and like how they
really are very sticky becauseof the shame aspect of it.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (26:10):
Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to get my, my hands
around, uh, a more cleardefinition here.
Uh, but when I, I definitelycan't look back to the childhood
and kind of feeling like therewas always like a, I'm in
trouble or I did something wrongkind of a thing.
(26:30):
And so then that pervades therest of your life.
And even whenever you've gotgood intentions, it's hard to be
able to believe, uh, I'm good.
And that's a hard thing toexperience.
That's baked in there.
Stephanie Barron Hall (26:48):
I'm curious as I was reading your
book, I also really wanted toask about feelings just in
general, because a lot of youradvice is like, you know, kind
of separate from them.
And you even mentioned earlier,feelings are not reality, right?
Um, and I think that there is alevel where we can have
emotional truth without thingsbeing like objectively always
(27:10):
true.
Um, and I'm curious how you takethat guidance, like feel your
feelings.
People have been saying that alot in these past few years.
And I feel like every self help,anything is like, feel your
feelings, feel your feelings.
And I felt a little bit morelike your guidance was like, no,
no, no.
Don't feel all your feelings allthe time.
(27:33):
do you kind of navigate that?
Reagan Pugh (27:35):
So that is the guidance is, is, and with the
caveat that it's, my guidance isfor a specific audience.
And whenever you go to write abook, really scary because if
you want to write a book for areally specific audience, you
know, that maybe if you'retalking Enneagram language, I
may be isolating two thirds ofpotential readers who could be
(27:57):
head types or gut types becauseI'm writing for the heart types.
So if I'm talking to a head typeor a gut type, I'm like, yeah,
feel those feelings.
You should do it.
But for my heart types, when Ihear the feel the feelings
things, especially force, Ithink to myself, Uh, you know
what?
You're not going to escape fromunhelpful or negative feelings
(28:20):
by feeling more feelings likethat.
The currency doesn't work thatway.
And that's the cycle for a fourspecifically is I'm just going
to daisy chain a bunch offeelings onto one another.
Uh, and then I'm going to wallowin the melancholy.
Um, and so I, yeah, I hope that.
(28:42):
people reading the book whodon't really resonate with the
idea of feeling because the corestory of the book is there are
some people in the world whofeel defective and, and their
feelings have become their,their coping mechanism for that.
And if you don't resonate withthat, I hope that you can see
maybe what it looks like to bemore in touch with your
feelings.
Um, the, the transition in thebook is it, it closes with, um,
(29:09):
you know, Not all of ourfeelings are bad, and the
positive side for a four is thatwe deal in the language of
emotions.
And so whenever we can detachfrom unhelpful ones and when we
can identify helpful ones, wenow have this superpower because
(29:31):
there's plenty of people in ourlives who don't.
know how to get in touch withtheir feelings and feel adrift
whenever they do.
And Forge can be really helpfulcompanions to those people,
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:44):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, You know,it's, it's not so much feel them
or don't feel them.
It's more about like, have somesort of agency in, you know, how
deeply you're feeling them ornot feeling them, like not being
adrift either direction.
I'm curious if you can share,uh, there's a story that you
told about, um, being at like abar or brewery or something and
(30:07):
everyone is having a great time.
And you just hated it.
Mm
Reagan Pugh (30:11):
Yeah, yeah, is uh, uh, is the, I think the opening
story is, is we're at a, we'reat a dance hall and and I'm with
my boss and we had been crankingaway.
We rented a little house in theTexas Hill Country because we
need to do some work.
And so we've been cranking awayall day.
And he said, let's go out fordancing and beer out of Lucan
(30:33):
Bach, Texas, classic dance hall.
And, uh, There ended up beingthis group of moms who were out
for a girl's night.
They all had bedazzled jeans on,you know, and they wanted to two
step and my boss is charming.
He's a eight and he's got allthis energy and he's charming
and he's dancing and twirlingthem and one of them wants to
teach me and everybody's kind ofgrabbing at you, pulling me,
(30:55):
inviting me onto the dancefloor.
And for some reason from thedrive to where we were staying
to that dance hall that night, Igot in a funk.
And if you're an emotional type,you know what it means to get in
a funk.
And I remember just gluingmyself to my chair and sitting
alone with a pitcher of beer.
And I knew that I was in a funk.
(31:17):
I knew I was being melancholy.
I knew that it would be reallysimple for me to get up and join
the dance.
But for some reason I couldn'tsee through the fog of my
emotions.
And so I just stood there theentire evening and kind of made
it a little worse for everybodyelse.
Stephanie Barron Hall (31:33):
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (31:34):
And I can't tell you how many times that's
happened.
And for those people whoexperienced their emotions, they
know that those moments arehappening.
And then afterward, you, youmight go home and you look back
at the night and you might eventell yourself, I should have
danced.
I should have participated.
And
Stephanie Barron Hall (31:54):
Or you might say, what was wrong with
you in that
Reagan Pugh (31:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What was wrong with me in thatmoment?
Um, So the book is, is really,yeah, I wish it were, I wish it
were like more nuanced, but thebook is really a push for people
who spend their energy in theirinternal world to realize that
moving into the external worldand participating is going to
(32:17):
give them all the things thatthey think they're going to be
able to conjure with their selfreflection and their interior
Spelunky.
Stephanie Barron Hall (32:27):
Yeah.
What are some practices that youhave now that you're like in a
funk?
How do you manage that now?
Do you just like let yourself beand not judge it?
Do you go out with a friend?
Do you go for a run?
You know, what are the helpfulthings now?
Reagan Pugh (32:46):
The simple way of putting it is trying to bring
awareness to where am I, am I,am I living inside or am I
living my life in real life?
Like, am I living externally?
And if we can bring awareness,To moments when we are in the
book, I talk about taking yourinner elevator all the way down,
(33:09):
uh, if we can see when we'rejust like going down into our
inner elevator and findingsolace in the little cave where
we've got all of ourinsecurities and, and emotions,
uh, that allows us to say, okay,I got to do something outside.
And so what that looks like,some of the ideas that I share
(33:29):
are people.
Connecting with people, adefined collaboration.
If you're an emotional type,particularly the kind of person
I wrote the book for, you know,whenever you see someone call
you, you want to avoid the calland you don't want to pick up
the phone.
We suck at picking up the phone.
Uh, but I'll tell you what, apractice that I've tried is pick
up the phone when it rings.
Even if you can only say, Hey, Ican't talk very long, but I just
(33:52):
wanted to pick up and say,hello.
Stephanie Barron Hall (33:55):
yeah,
Reagan Pugh (33:56):
moving your body, changing your biology, going on
a run, getting out of the house,Emotional types can obsess over
creating the perfect day.
And oftentimes that might meanno disturbances from anyone
else, but oftentimes it'sconnecting with other people,
moving our body, asking forfeedback that works, um, moving
(34:17):
into action of any kind.
There's a tool called fake itfor five that I add in the book,
which is set a timer for fiveminutes.
And what I want you to do is Iwant you to pretend that you're
the kind of person who wants todo whatever you have to do.
And this is going to be hard,but just pretend.
And when five minutes is over,you can reassess.
And I'll tell you what, afterfive minutes, I've never not
(34:39):
wanted to continue what I'mdoing because motivation is not
a feeling that we summon.
Motivation is a result of ustaking action and feeling the
wind in our back.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:52):
yeah, yeah.
And I think that that is sochallenging to recognize
because, I'll speak from my ownexperience.
I used to always be that type ofperson who just always kind of
felt motivated, you know?
Um, and I just don't anymore.
Like a lot of the time I'm like,I don't feel like it.
And it just takes doingsomething to be like, all right,
(35:15):
I'm We can get this snowballgoing, you know, um, and then it
feels better.
Reagan Pugh (35:21):
absolutely.
But our behaviors shape ourbeliefs.
I think we need to observeourselves doing a thing that we
don't want to do to remindourselves to create the neural
pathways that we can do thosethings.
And Oh yeah, most often we feelbetter on the other end of any
sort of participation in ourreal life.
Stephanie Barron Hall (35:42):
Uh, but it's so hard to remember when
you're like, I don't want tothough.
I just want to keep reading.
That's my trap.
Reagan Pugh (35:48):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I, yeah.
Some people in this world callit opposite action.
You know, uh, an easy way ofthinking about it is whatever
your ego tells you, you need todo, just choose opposite action.
Um, and that's normally thehealthier thing.
Stephanie Barron Hall (36:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I wanted to ask about whenyou're writing for other people,
what do they need to know aboutbeing with somebody who is in
this too emotional space?
Reagan Pugh (36:17):
Yeah.
It's really dark and stormyinside someone who's in the
emotional space.
And, um, we're already downenough on ourselves.
So for people, dealing withthose of us in the emotional
space.
I think one thing that's helpfulto know is, uh, we're so, we're,
(36:38):
we're often very, very selfreflective.
And so we're already pretty,pretty clear on all the things
that we're not doing correctlyor all of the things we should
be doing.
Um, and we could probablyarticulate all of those things
to you.
Uh, the issue is just, uh, we,we can't move into the right,
the right action.
(36:58):
Um, so, you know, my wife, Ifshe had heard your others, this
book would have been done twoyears ago.
And Steph, it probably couldhave been, and it probably could
have been is the level ofquality it is today.
Um, but you know, we're reallynever going to learn anything
(37:19):
when someone pushes us intoaction.
We're going to have to learn howto take action for ourselves.
So my wife is the perfectexample for anyone who's looking
to be in relationship with a, anemotional type or a hard type.
She validates my feelings.
Um, she says things like thatmust be hard and she doesn't try
(37:42):
to make me things, do things,um, that I don't want to do.
Um, and for people who aremotivated by action, that can
seem really frustrating,perhaps.
But I've found that her brand ofpartnership, Um, really works,
uh, because the real thing thatneeds to happen for us emotional
(38:06):
types or for those of us whofeel defective, isn't that we
learn to start taking action.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:12):
Right.
Reagan Pugh (38:13):
that's a bandaid.
We need to remember that we'rewhole and that there's nothing
wrong with us.
And if someone else can help usfeel that, I think that's the
greatest gift that they can begiven.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:26):
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (38:27):
And if you're trying to use feelings to
motivate your action.
Right.
So as a sexual for man, I canhave a month where I'm like
inspired and driven and I'mrunning off of feeling.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:41):
Mm hmm.
Reagan Pugh (38:41):
Um, but guess what?
Our feelings are really fickle.
And so when the feelings change,you know, all of a sudden the
output changes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (38:55):
trust that moving to the virtue of a four, it's
gotta be the trust in thisequanimity.
That, um, I'm whole and I amgood and I'm no better or no
worse than anyone else.
I have an invitation toparticipate as well.
Stephanie Barron Hall (39:15):
Yeah.
I love, when I first learned theEnneagram and I heard equanimity
for fours, I was like, hmm, I'mnot sure I really get it, but
like.
Over the years, it just is sobeautiful to think about that
concept of just being like oneof the people, like one of all
of these beautiful people andnot having to stand out in
(39:35):
either direction.
Um, and I know for a lot of fouris that they, that feels really
scary and really like, why wouldyou ever want that?
Um, but I think all of ourvirtues feel a little bit like
that along
Reagan Pugh (39:49):
Certainly.
Yeah.
there's a great release comeswhenever you realize I don't
have to prove anything.
Stephanie Barron Hall (39:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, earlier you mentioned sexualfour being like the angriest
type on the Enneagram.
You mentioned you had a boss whowas an eight, and I'm curious
for you, how did you know thatyou were a sexual four and not
an eight?
Like how do you see that?
Reagan Pugh (40:14):
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
I guess who I get along withreally well.
Apes.
One of my best friends here inAustin is an ape.
And I remember the day that hesaid he had to ask me some
advice about how he handled asituation and he prefaced it
with, so I need your advice as abrother in anger.
Uh,
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:34):
I love that.
Reagan Pugh (40:36):
So we can, you know, ramp each other up like
two dogs in a backyard, youknow, and the.
The way that I was able to tellthe difference is, uh, whenever
my friends who are eights raninto roadblocks or ran into
disappointments, um, or, or, uh,things didn't go the way that
(40:56):
they wanted.
Um, Their level of energy andconfidence and their ability to
move forward did not waver.
In some ways, this desire to goagainst, they were even more
motivated to just like get amonkey wrench and figure the
thing out.
Uh, as a four, when you run intoroadblocks or disappointments or
(41:17):
things don't go the way that youthought they would go, or you
don't get the affirmation youthought you would.
The default mechanism is toretreat into your internal world
to say what's wrong with me tomove toward melancholy and
shame.
And often that looks like a lackof action.
So roadblocks make AIDS goharder?
(41:37):
For a four, I've noticed theywould make me want to lay on the
couch for three days.
Stephanie Barron Hall (41:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Um, Well, and I think one of thebig similarities that I see and
why you might get along so wellis that desire for that
authenticity and transparencyand just really kind of laying
it all out there and, and, um,having that intensity about
life, but then you do completelydifferent things with that.
Reagan Pugh (42:03):
Yeah, yeah.
With my eight, we do a yearlyretreat for some men that I'm
close with.
And for the longest time, uh,there was a, you know, a three
and a four in the group.
And I would say, Hey, okay guys,this year, anytime you notice me
stepping out of line or anytimeyou notice me not being true to
the goals I set for the year, Iwant you to tell me, I want you
to hold me accountable.
(42:24):
And they would always say thatthey would in January and then
never wants the entire yearwhere they call me out on my BS
or push me.
But we added an eight to the mixthis last year and it's May and
already he's come to me and beenlike, dude, you're not pushing.
Like you said, you would.
Hey, you said you wanted thisand your actions aren't aligning
(42:44):
with it.
And I love it.
I love it.
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:49):
man.
It's funny because I thinkthrees can be direct and
certainly for me.
Somebody tries to drop a hintstraight over my head.
I have no idea.
Like, what?
Is that a hint?
Uh, but I think threes can bemore, um, conflict avoidant than
(43:10):
people expect because they'reheart types.
And threes are like, all thetime when I teach this, people
are like, threes are like, I'mnot a heart type.
And then I teach about threesand I'm like, okay, nevermind,
you know,
Reagan Pugh (43:23):
Yeah.
So what's behind that?
Because I think threes, justlike other heart types are still
dealing in the language ofrelationships.
Like that's, that's a coreconcern for them.
Right.
Uh, but, and, and so, but thenwhat is that?
Help me understand why thatthere seems to be resistance to
(43:46):
being more direct.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:49):
um, I think that there's just such a
consideration of like, what dothey think about me or what will
they think if I do this or if Isay this and, and I think that
threes.
Um, and I think, you know, Ithink self preservation threes
might be like, well, maybethey're borrowing a little bit
from their nine wing thinking,uh, maybe I'll just not rock the
boat, you know, I think selfpreservation threes can be more
(44:10):
direct, but in general, they'remore reserved.
Um, so they're not always theone who's gonna kind of call
somebody out.
Reagan Pugh (44:19):
Got it.
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:20):
But I think threes are a lot, uh,
they're just not as assertiveas, as eights are a lot of the
time, unless they're backed upagainst a wall and like having
to prove themselves.
But if they feel really securein a relationship, they don't
feel that same drive to like, Ihave to show you how great I am,
or I have to prove myself orinspire or impress you.
(44:41):
Um, and so, which is a greatspace for a three to be in, in a
relationship, right, of like nothaving to impress people.
Um, but.
It does mean I think thatthere's less of the
assertiveness outright.
Um, though in my mostcomfortable relationships, I'm
pretty confrontational and, butnot like in a bad way, I'm just
(45:03):
like, Hey, you know, what's upwith that?
And then we talk about it andit's fine.
Um, so it can be challenging forme to be in relationship with
people who can't handleconflict.
Um, I like to have everythingabove board, but.
Reagan Pugh (45:18):
I hear that.
Mm-hmm
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:20):
But maybe that's also the, we share the
same instinctual stacking.
Reagan Pugh (45:24):
We share the same one.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:27):
maybe that also plays, plays into it.
Reagan Pugh (45:30):
So with social, with you being social repressed,
um, what does that, what doesthat look like in your life?
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:39):
Um, well, I've had, had some really
difficult social experiences.
Um, whether that's from likewhen I was a kid and like being
bullied or, um, when just a fewyears ago I was in a community
and left and basically like lostall of my friendships.
Um, so I've had these thingshappen.
(46:01):
But now I am very resistant tojoining like groups, even groups
that I know will be good for me.
Um, like I'm very much like, Oh,I don't know, like, I don't want
to label myself that I'm justlike not a joiner in that sense.
Um, and and even, you know, whenI was in college and there'd be
school spirit days, I'd be like,Ugh, I'm not doing that
Reagan Pugh (46:24):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:25):
school to, you know, middle school,
high school people like comelike decked out in the school
colors.
And I'm like, I'm not doingthat.
Reagan Pugh (46:32):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:35):
And so I think some people in my life
definitely thought I was a fourwhen we first were learning the
Enneagram because of that, but Iactually think it has more to do
with being social repressed.
Reagan Pugh (46:44):
Yeah.
Oh, that makes sense.
I think for, for me, it, it kindof looks like fearing what?
Social interactions are going torequire of me, uh, worrying
about the energy spent and ifI'm going to be able to perform
(47:09):
adequately.
So here's this envy showing up,uh, again, uh, where I'm in the
sexual instinct, where am Igoing to stack at the party?
And so being social oppressed, Ioften feel like I, I have a lot
of pre anxiety about socialinteractions.
Because as a self referencingfor I'm going, I imagine that
(47:32):
everyone after the party, afterI leave is going to have a
conversation in a smoke filledroom.
Like did he stack up to what wethought he would be like, was
he, or was he just kind of likeoverblown?
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (47:45):
It's so funny how all of our work, our
brains like work differentlyabout those sorts of things and
how even like the socialrepress.
Then can be different because Idefinitely have social anxiety
and I feel very anxious, but Ialso, in my mind I connect that
to feedback I've gotten abouthow I show up in different
spaces, you know?
(48:05):
So I connected to that versusthinking, Oh, in the future,
they're going to judge me.
It's like, huh?
Last time I talked to somebody,they thought this about me.
Reagan Pugh (48:17):
man.
Those stories, that feedbackthat we hang on to that, don't
we?
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:21):
Hmm.
Reagan Pugh (48:22):
Gosh, that's tough.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:24):
Yeah.
It's like that Rick Hansenquote, we're Techlan for the
positive and velcro for thenegative.
Yeah.
Reagan Pugh (48:34):
one.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:39):
Um, do you have any other practical
advice for fours who might belistening?
Reagan Pugh (48:48):
Yeah.
In our, in our work, you know,we have a hard time finishing
things.
We have a far a hard time makingcontributions in work.
We have a hard time being aworker among workers because we
want everything to bemeaningful, and we want
everything to feel like it'sfull of purpose.
(49:11):
And it's really difficult for usto summon motivation anyway.
And especially it's difficultfor us to summon motivation when
we don't feel like there's somebig existential reason why we're
doing our work.
So in the workplace for four isthe thing that I like to guide
people toward is you need to getreally great at doing unsexy
(49:33):
work.
You need to, you need to bereally, you need to learn the
practice of just moving throughthings because here's the deal,
force always worry, uh, it, Isthis unique enough?
Is there going to be enoughmeaning in this work?
And what they don't realize isinherently a four is already so
nuanced and so introspectiveThat if you were to just start
(49:55):
making regular contributionsthat you actually put into the
world You cannot help but addyour unique flavor to that.
You cannot help but make itmeaningful and intentional so
Just do things, just submitideas, just do unsexy work.
And then you're going to be ableto look back and you're going to
(50:17):
be able to see where there wasmeaning infused in all of that.
That's in the workplace.
In relationships, we have to getbetter at realizing that
everything is not about us.
And we have to realize thatbecause we're worried that
everyone's overlooking us, we'regoing to try and haunt the
(50:39):
spotlight because we believethat we need as much affirmation
as we can get.
Um, but what we're really after,what we're really after is
connection.
We're after the opposite of theisolation that we feel.
And the way that we get that isby doing the opposite of what
our default programming tells usto do, which is make it about
(51:01):
other people, be of service, letthem share their experience,
talk about what they want totalk about.
Even if it's not meaningful toyou, uh, there's a line I use in
the book sometimes for a four orsomeone who's too emotional.
Small talk can be an act ofservice.
(51:21):
Just follow someone else'sagenda.
Stephanie Barron Hall (51:25):
Yeah.
And I think that act of movingtoward people instead of always
moving away and like kind ofinviting people to chase you can
be really helpful because Ithink fours want to feel
pursued.
Um, but in a lot ofrelationships, That's not how
they work.
Some relationships do, but a lotof them don't.
(51:45):
Um, and it can leave you feelingreally like nobody actually
wants you, when in reality theydo.
They just are like, do you wantto show up to meet me halfway
here?
Reagan Pugh (51:57):
Absolutely.
The emotions that cloud ourjudgment, uh, prevent us from
seeing the reality, um, andadmitting that, uh, we can't,
we're not so special that we getto get all of the positive
things in life without doing anyof the work.
So.
(52:18):
When you're unconscious as afour, it's easy to look around
and play a victim and say, noone's pursuing me, uh, nobody,
no, nobody, I don't, my, myfriends aren't my true friends.
Uh, but whenever you start to beable to see that emotion, bring
awareness to it, accept thatthat's a coping mechanism, and
then wonder what your part is init.
You can start to say, when's thelast time I reached out to them?
(52:42):
Or when's the last time I showedup for them without their
request?
And you can slowly start to seewhere equinamity plays a part.
I'm no better or worse of afriend than them.
Uh, eventually someone's goingto have to go first to keep this
relationship going.
I can be the person to go firstthis time.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's such good advice.
Well, before we get into yourlast two questions, where can
people find you?
And most importantly, by yourbook?
Um, because I just saw thecover, it's So lovely.
I can't wait for people to readit.
And I'm gonna order one myselftoo, even though I already read
the PDF, but I'm gonna read it
Reagan Pugh (53:19):
you, Thank you, Steph.
Uh, I'm at reaganpugh.
com.
R E A G A N P U G H.
com.
We decided it was a good idea tolaunch a new website and a new
book in the same week, which wasstupid and crazy, but we did it.
So information on book and,thank you.
Information on book and speakingis there.
Um, or you can just search tooemotional and Amazon and the
(53:44):
book is there.
And I'd love to connect onInstagram at Reagan, Pugh, R E H
E A N P U G H.
Stephanie Barron Hall (53:50):
Perfect.
I will link all of that up inthe show notes.
So final two questions I askeveryone.
Tell me about a book that hashelped you, refreshed you, or
shaped you in the last year.
Reagan Pugh (54:01):
Have you read 4, 000 weeks by Oliver Berkman?
Stephanie Barron Hall (54:04):
Yeah,
Reagan Pugh (54:05):
Oh,
Stephanie Barron Hall (54:05):
such a good one.
Reagan Pugh (54:07):
I think it was like the best one in the last two
years for me.
Um, the reason why it was sohelpful is because the subtitle
of the book is time managementfor mortals.
And it's a little bit of adifferent time management book
because it doesn't necessarilytell you how to be more
productive or get more done.
What it helps to is it helpsshift your perspective to
(54:29):
realize that, you know what,actually we have such a small
amount of time on this earth andactually we're all pretty
insignificant.
Um, and we're going to die.
And you know what the greatestgift of freedom, uh, can be is
realizing that, uh, life is soshort and we're so insignificant
and we're just a blip on thetimeline of the universe.
(54:50):
So hopefully it gives youfreedom to have the courage to
do whatever it is you want todo.
And I think that's really goodadvice for a four.
Stephanie Barron Hall (54:58):
Yeah, such good advice.
And I think, you know, formyself as well, it was So
impactful because it really didhelp me also see I'm expecting
so much of myself.
Like he talks about thesestudies where you can only
really do three to four hours ofdeep work a day.
But as a, um, you know, solobusiness owner, a lot of the
(55:19):
time I'm like, Oh, I'm notfocusing for eight hours
straight every single day.
And I would beat myself up aboutthat.
And it's helpful for me to justconstantly remind myself it's
okay.
I can't do eight hours of likeWriting a day, you know, things
like that.
Reagan Pugh (55:38):
Right,
Stephanie Barron Hall (55:39):
that.
little darkness of timemanagement for mortals of like,
like just bring death front ofmind.
I'm sure that really got to youas a four, just like that
darkness of that image.
You're like, yes.
Reagan Pugh (55:49):
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah that yeah the stoicphilosophy of the kind of
memento mori the meditate onyour death Yeah.
Really helpful.
Stephanie Barron Hall (55:58):
Uh, so what is a piece of advice that
has really stuck with you?
Reagan Pugh (56:04):
I'll go back to the the idea that We're not going to
find freedom from our unhelpfulfeelings by feeling more
feelings Uh, life is lived outin the world and I'm so lucky to
be married to a seven who dragsme out into the world.
(56:25):
Um, but participating in one'slife looks like including others
and, and, and taking action.
And when we do that, we canwitness ourselves becoming
different.
And I think participation is thecore theme that has benefited me
(56:47):
the most.
Stephanie Barron Hall (56:50):
That's such fantastic advice.
Thanks so much for coming onhere today and sharing all of
your wisdom.
It's been a great conversationand I can't wait for everyone to
get their hands on your newbook.
Reagan Pugh (57:01):
Thank you, Steph.
This was a gift.
Steph Barron Hall (57:03):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway
(57:24):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(57:45):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
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