High and Low Thresholds by Enneagram Type (Special Release from Around the Circle Podcast)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hello and welcome to Enneagramin Real Life, the podcast where
we explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
lives.
I'm your host, Steph BarronHall, and on today's episode I
have a little somethingdifferent.
Um, I was recently a guest onthe Enneagram podcast called
Around The Circle.
Around the circle is hosted byJeff and TJ, and they invited me

(00:31):
on to talk about my new book,enneagram in real life and we
broke down this concept ofthresholds that I introduced in
the book, and I really lovedthis podcast interview.
I really appreciated theopportunity and the, the amount
of space they offered to reallybreak down this concept.
And it kind of became almostlike a masterclass in this

(00:53):
particular section of the book.
And as a result, they releasedabout half of this episode on.
Their podcast feed and the restwas on Patreon only.
But they've so graciouslyallowed me to release the entire
thing for you.
So here you're gonna hear anextra long podcast interview,

(01:14):
um, which I so rarely get to do,but, it's really a fun thing to
have this.
Length of teaching Incorporated,and so I'm gonna play the entire
episode in its entirety and Ireally encourage you to check
out.
The podcast around the circle.
You can also find them onInstagram.
So I will link up everything inthe show notes below.
Um, but it was a greatconversation.

(01:36):
We talked about a little bit ofthe background of why I wrote
the book, which you've heard alittle bit here already.
But, um, we also talked aboutwhat it's like to.
Be in relationships.
So having three of us on and allthree of us being very
knowledgeable in the n agram, wewere able to talk a little bit
about the relational dynamicsthat we're all bringing.
TJ and I both talked abouthaving, uh, partners who are

(01:56):
sixes and what that's like.
So it was really fun.
It was a really greatconversation and I really hope
you'll enjoy.
So even if you don't get to sitdown and listen to it all in one
go, definitely bookmark yourplace and come back for more
because I think you'll really,really enjoy this podcast
episode.
And thanks again to TJ and Jefffor allowing me.
To share this, and check out allof their info in the show notes

(02:20):
now onto the show.
I'm Jeff Cook, and I'm TJWilson.
And this is around the circle.
I'm walking slowly, I'm takingmy beautiful life.

(02:51):
The Enneagram is a map of thehuman personality.
It's a tool for navigatingrelationships.
It creates language for whatmotivates us and helps us look
at the way we look at everythingelse.
Most importantly, the enneagramsa Mirror.
'cause sometimes you need helpseeing yourself.
My name's Jeff Cook.
I'm a longtime professor ofphilosophy in Greeley, Colorado.
And with me is TJ Wilson, coffeeGuru Lover Theology and
Enneagram Ninja.
Hello my man.

(03:14):
Hey, we are starting the yearoff with a new friend.
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall is withus.
Steph is a three and the founderof Nine Types Co.
Where she seems to be coachingeverybody and like, like all
over the world.
It's true.
So is this right?
Where was the last place thatyou went?
Well, um, I have a client, arepeat client who, um, they're

(03:38):
in India.
So I've been, come on, beencoaching them and it's a lot of
fun.
Tj, would you get on that interms of free travel to foreign
lands?
Ah, sure.
Finding, uh, yep.
Okay.
Yep.
People will pay, pay for that.
Friends, uh, for those of youwho dunno, Steph's work, um, she
wrote a fantastic book calledThe Enneagram and Love a few

(04:00):
years back.
Very good, very much worthpicking up.
And her next book, the Enneagramin Real Life, which is named
after her excellent podcast, isreleasing in February.
Uh, so Stephanie, we arethrilled to start the year off
with you.
So welcome.
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm happy to be on an Enneagramspecific podcast.

(04:21):
Hey, what was, what, what typeof podcasts are inviting you on
all sorts?
Um, and I, I love that too, butI do get the same questions,
like mm-hmm.
What do you mean your type neverchanges?
How could that be possible?
Which types are compatible andmm-hmm.
Those questions, I just, youknow, or I go around the circle
with the basics.
This type is motivated by thisand they like to avoid bl blank,

(04:42):
you know, so.
Mm-hmm.
It's fun to dig in.
It's all intro.
Yeah, I was watching somethingyesterday with Johnny Carson
talking about how terrified heis when he's a guest on other
people's shows.
'cause he's so used to being aguest and the basics questions
terrify me or I'm like, howwould you actually describe a
seven?

(05:02):
And so, uh, so anyway, welldone.
You're you're doing the heavylifting for the rest of us.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
In 30 seconds or less.
In 30 seconds or less.
This is right.
Well, the book's not out, but Ispent the weekend with your book
and thoroughly enjoyed myself.
There's, there's a lot to sayhere.
We'll obviously dive deep intoone topic and go around the
circle with it.

(05:23):
But you've written an Enneagrambook already.
Mm-hmm.
Why write a second Enneagrambook?
What was, what's uh, what was itthat, that needed to get on
paper?
Well, what was really enticingto me about this was one that I
got to have a lot more creativecontrol.
My very first book, thepublisher came to me that said,
here's the title, here's theoutline, go for it.
This book, I came up with all ofthat kind of from my own idea

(05:47):
generating and things like that.
And the book actually started anumber of years ago, um, as a
course.
So several years ago I did allof this like audience, um,
surveying and, and interviewingand everything.
And I found that the questionsthat people really had were,
one, I know my type, now what.

(06:07):
And then two, when I wouldactually sit down with them and
talk with them about their type,they didn't have enough
information about the coreaspects of the type which are
covered in the book, um, toreally be able to understand and
apply it.
So in my business, I've donehundreds of typing interviews,
which is awesome because, youknow, you guys I think will love
this, but I have a standardizedset of questions, and I have so

(06:31):
much data where people of alltypes have answered the same
questions.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then people would leavethose interviews and say, well,
I'm not successful enough to bea three.
I'm not perfect enough to be aone, et cetera.
And I would say, you know, maybeget off Instagram for a second
and like, let's actually diginto the type itself.

(06:51):
Right.
Um, and so that's where thisidea really came from.
Bang, I've been, uh, trying tofind, get people to answer
questions about like, like whathappens when you, like, there's
gotta be incompetent threes outthere.
Right?
There has to be.
And so like, what, what do we dowhen we incorporate those people

(07:14):
into the telling and, yeah.
Because all, all the threes thatwe know are like, they're,
they're crushing it.
Right.
And yeah.
But then you have a three likeme who, you know.
I've been binging Grey'sAnatomy, so now I'm like, oh,
well I actually do know aboutblah blah, blah, to be fair.
Mm-hmm.
I don't think I'm a doctor, butI could see how a three would

(07:36):
just like, get down that, thatrabbit trail in their little ego
would be like, I'm a doctor now.
Yeah.
You know, one of the things thatI can, a lot of folks that I've
talked to in kind of Enneagramworld and studies and especially
publication, eventually come tothe spot where they're like,
well, what's the next thing?
But it seems like you have likeintroductory studies and then

(07:56):
you have relationship books, andthat's, that's pretty much what
we do here at Agram World.
Mm-hmm.
The thing that I reallyappreciate about what you just
said and what seems to me to bejust screaming for attention is
actually sitting down withpeople, uh, a lot of them and
getting data.
Yeah.
And feedback and moving awayfrom Instagram missed, uh, you
know, um, stereotypes and movinginto actual language from actual

(08:21):
people who can identify theirmotive in worthy ways.
And so I'm thrilled.
That was, that was one of thethings that hit me from your
book that came out was the shiftin emphasis towards what seemed
to be like actual language fromactual people.
And so, um, anything else onthat?
Like, do you continue to do thator was that just a season?

(08:41):
Like how, how do you go aboutdoing interviews and gathering
data?
Yeah, so in, in some ways theinterviews, um, in the sense of
typing interviews, I do them allthe time.
Um, and.
So it, it is gathering data in asense.
Like I'm learning something frompeople, but it also is a service
that I'm just, you know,sharing.
Okay.

(09:01):
The evidence points to this.
Mm-hmm.
And what's really helpful aboutdoing so many is I can say, you
know, most people and don'tbring up this specific word
unless they're this type.
Um, that's not, I'm not gonnahang the entire typing on that
one piece, but it can be helpfulfor people to hear things like

(09:22):
that.
Um, and just having thoseconversations.
So I do continue to, to do them.
And I'm always learning from,whether that's the people that
I'm doing typing interviewswith, or when I go and work with
corporate and, and people sharethings.
They share stories, they sharetheir experiences or their
perspectives, even if theyshare.
I actually don't agree withwhat's on the slide right there,
you know, that's, that's reallyhelpful for me.

(09:44):
Um, so yeah, I'm always kind oflearning more.
Did, did you do that, uh, justto back up, when you did your
relationship book, part of your,uh, uh, a large part of your
relationship book is on thecombinations mm-hmm.
Between types, so ones andfours, sevens and eights, et
cetera, who are in relationship.
Did you end up havingconversations with couples?
I did, uh, surveys.

(10:06):
Okay.
Yeah.
So primarily surveys justbecause that's a lot more
couples, a lot more people find,um mm-hmm.
But I primarily focused on, um,specific aspects of it.
Like I asked a lot aboutintimacy, um mm-hmm.
And how people define intimacyand those sorts of things.
The reason I'm bringing up the,the, your first book is because

(10:28):
for those of you out there whohave been begging us for our
MISTYPING chart mm-hmm.
Which is, is in the works, butwill take a while, Steph's book
is fantastic.
Secondarily as a mistypingchart, if you just go to the
combination pages of, I might,uh, of ones and fives in
relationship, and then you say,which of these ways do I wanna

(10:49):
experience intimacy?
It, it is probably as good asanything you'll find in terms of
like finding your type if you,if you know you're one of two
types.
So just as a plug first book isexcellent, you should buy both.
Thanks.
Uh, I would be really fascinatedto like, look to like sift
through some of that data.
That sounds so interesting.
And like what you were sayingabout like, this person says

(11:12):
this one word doesn't work forme.
Or like the, like all of thosenuances Right.
Are, are so beautiful and, andthey can only serve to deepen
our understanding of thisincredibly complex but also very
simple system.
Right, right.
So, yeah, I, I've done, um,some.

(11:32):
Consulting work that is notincluding the Enneagram.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and sometimes I'll even dothat portion first and then
bring in the Enneagram.
So recently I did, um,communication core values.
So looking at what are your corevalues in communication
specifically.
And I had everyone's Enneagramresults in front of me as they

(11:53):
were saying, these are my threecore values.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, mm-hmm.
Yep.
8, 6, 1, like, just going downthe list.
Um, like yeah, that checks out.
And those are some things thatare really interesting that
people are really, maybe theydon't choose the exact same
words, but the three words thatthey choose together create this
concept.
And that's really useful.
Mm-hmm.

(12:13):
Um, in typing and inunderstanding each other.
Yeah.
Love that.
I wanna breach it.
We may talk about subtypes andinstincts a bit later.
Um, you, I don't know if you'refamiliar with, with our work on
this, but we're theoreticallywe're, we're, we have a
different take or we're gonna bepart of the problem in terms of
saying people should wait quitea bit.

(12:34):
However, the thing that'shitting me is you're, is you're
talking is given the amount ofFaceTime that you have with
actual folks talking throughtheir types and numbers, do you
see dominant instincts reallycoming forth in those
conversations?
Or is it the case that that's anadd-on that comes later in when

(12:55):
you're doing that initial work?
Yeah, it helps a lot with typingbecause, um, if somebody.
Seems like a one, but I reallycan't determine which subtype
they are of type one.
Mm-hmm.
That gives me pause.
Right?
That's an indication, Hey, maybeI need to look at this again.
And maybe I think, oh, selfpress three, social six, some of

(13:17):
these other mistypes that arecommon.
Um, and then also for somepeople it actually, like, I
think it, it doesn't make thatbig of a difference, but for
some people, like the ones I wasmentioning earlier who said, I'm
too much a, I'm not enough of aperfectionist to be a one, or
I'm not successful enough to bea three.
Typically for them, they need tosee the subtypes to really feel

(13:38):
like they land on their type.
Um, and for me, I think thesubtypes were really powerful in
helping me to explore thatfurther and understand what it,
what really is the work that Ineed to be doing.
That's a fabulous answer, and Ithink that we would affirm most
of that.
But do you, have you got that suYeah.
I, I am one of those people thatthe subtypes isn't very helpful

(14:01):
because I, I move through themso much and so fluidly in my
life, and, um, that does notmean that I am healthier than
anyone else.
It just means that I don'tnecessarily have a dominant
subtype.
So I come, coming from thatperspective, I have to represent
the, the people that likesubtypes isn't useful for, and,

(14:24):
uh.
I think also that we'reexperiencing within like the
literature and the, the peoplewho are doing good work we're
experiencing and expanding, andalso uhis filing of the language
and the understanding of whatthe instincts are in the first
place.
So I, 10 years ago, I don'tthink, I, I think that like the

(14:49):
fact that the, the idea thatsubtypes muddy everything was
very true.
And we are starting to get to aplace where it's, it's not as
muddy anymore because we'reunderstanding it better.
So we're teaching it better.
So I'm interested to see wherewe're going.
But also representative of theother side that subtypes, they,

(15:11):
they make everything messy andalso they aren't as important as
some people say.
They're so Sure.
Yeah.
And I think that also depends ondifferent types too, sometimes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Would fully affirm that if youwere the one typing others, that
having a a, a strong knowledgeof, of the dominant instincts is
really gonna be helpful.

(15:31):
Mm-hmm.
And especially for the reasonsstated and even saying to those
who are new to this, so there'sa certain variation on your type
and it looks like this.
That can also be incrediblyhelpful.
Mm-hmm.
To be consistent.
If I'm a one you sayconsistency's gonna be a, a very

(15:52):
important thing.
So it's saying it so that I canlet it go.
Steph's book's great.
The, the, as I was reading it, Iwas think, I was trying to
envision who, like the perfectaudience for this book is, and
in my mind it's actually theperson who's probably a
Enneagram informed and has beenfor a while, and they get a
chance to take a break, which TJand I elevate frequently that

(16:16):
you, you should take some monthsoff if you get into to this and
then, and then come back withfresh eyes to do work.
Because if you're using theEnneagram, it can be
entertainment on one side, butif you wanna do work, taking the
break and then coming back,that, that is a ridiculously
helpful practice.
And I don't know of a resourcethat's better for that person

(16:38):
than what I saw in your book.
I think your book would befantastic for that person and
specifically for those who havedone the upfront work and then
have actually created spacewhere they can jump into.
Instincts and subtypes and, andthe rest.
A lot of the stuff that we'll,we'll talk about, um, in test
books ends up being verypractical, very question driven,

(17:00):
very, um, okay, here's somethingthat you need to commit to, kind
of activities.
All of that just, uh, veryhelpful.
Couldn't name another resourcethat really fits that spot.
So I'm really glad that, thatyou put pen to paper here and
you're serving the rest of us.
Thanks.
Got any thoughts on that, tj,before, before I jump into our,

(17:22):
our big topic here.
I mean, before we really jumpin, there is one more thing I
really need to bring up.
I specifically went through andlistened to like snippets here
and there of, of, uh, just toget a, a sense of how you talk
and stuff.
And the first episode that Ilistened to sort of opened, uh,

(17:43):
like in the relative beginningyou talked about Leslie Knope
being a two and I have with manyother people around me, I have
been certain that Leslie Knopeis a three for years.
And, uh, Jeff's wife is also athree.

(18:03):
And we regularly make commentsabout how she's exactly like
Leslie and hope, like there'sjust so much similarity there.
And then you said the thing thatblew my mind, which was this is
what it looks like when an eightplays a two and is like, ah,
I've been wrong this whole time.
Mic drop.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(18:23):
Well, and, and so forever, I'mnot just typing Amy Poer, she
went on Seth Meyers and talkedabout the Enneagram and talked
about how she's innate.
And um, yeah, I think becausethere are times watching her,
I'm like, she's supposed to beso people oriented and caring,
but she has this side that's abit too intense for a two.
Mm-hmm.
And that's why I think you couldmake the argument of type three,

(18:45):
um.
But when you recognize, oh,she's an eight and so she's
playing this character, that's,that's where I feel like social
too is the best fit.
Yeah, it's brilliant.
I I, I'm not necessarilyconceding the argument, but I'm
definitely thinking about itdifferently.
We can, we can fight about thatoffline.
If you wanna see Polar as aneight, you gotta see her early

(19:05):
characters.
She plays a character thatstands up, that's has like these
massive braces who stands up inthe middle of people's shows and
starts yelling at the, thepeople on stage.
Oh my gosh.
It's hilarious.
But that's like you will whensee that character, you're like,
there she is.
That's the eight character.
Yeah.
And it's, it's glorious.
Anyway, provocateur, so this isaround the circle.

(19:26):
We pick a topic, we go aroundthe circle.
Steph has, to my knowledge, andit, it sounded like this in
terms of what you wrote,created, um, an idea.
That I really resonated with.
And, uh, she applied it to eachof the types.
And I, I'm, I have no idea wherethis conversation's gonna go,
but her idea is calledthreshold.

(19:48):
Uh, beg your patience for twoseconds on this.
That many of us know Enneagramsstudy is kind of a framework for
talking about your inner life,but once you understand your
type, it blows open a whole hostof different topics, different
underlying patterns, um,different, you know, ways of

(20:09):
like questions being addressedinside of yourself.
And many of you have been, youknow, our podcast listeners will
know that we've done things onsay the virtues, vices, the
hazards.
There's, there's all these waysthat each of the types kind of
manifest themselves in a topic.
And the topic that Steph createdwas, is called Thresholds.

(20:34):
And I love this idea.
I would, I would love to justset you up as, can you talk
about what you mean bythresholds and then we'll talk
about each of the types in turn.
Sure.
Um, so the best way to kind ofexplain it is how it came about.
So I was actually working with ateam, um, and this team, there
were a lot of eights and I thinkit was like three eights and a

(20:56):
three.
Then they had this nine who wasactually the liaison between
this team and the rest of theorganization.
And they were always gettingthis feedback, you're so
unapproachable, like you're sodifficult to talk to or bring
things to, or were intimidatedby you.
Um, and this team really neededthat to not be the case.
And so I was having aconversation with, um, this team

(21:20):
and I said, and it just likekind of came to me in that
moment of, oh, what's happeninghere is that eights have a
higher threshold for what feelslike conflict.
So imagine an eight has aconflict threshold that's like
above eyebrow level and um,somebody else, a different type
has a threshold for conflict.
That's, you know, shoulderheight.

(21:41):
Well imagine something'shappening between those two.
Um, you have a conversation, theeight walks away thinking, we
just had a great conversation.
The other person walks awaythinking, oh, we just had a
fight.
Mm-hmm.
And this really opened up thisconversation for this team
because they started realizing,oh yeah, that makes sense.
Because the other day I had atalk with somebody in the

(22:04):
conference room, and then I waslike, oh, you wanna go to lunch?
And then they said, no.
And then I saw them crying inthe hallway and just realizing
like, we're not trying to beinsensitive.
We're just having these, theseconversations and we're being
direct and, and we're reallyapproaching things in the best
way we think possible.
And then unwittingly having, youknow, all of this.

(22:25):
Damage that that's occurring.
Mm-hmm.
And it doesn't mean that the aidis bad or wrong, but it's a good
thing for them to be aware of.
And it's a good thing for otherpeople to be aware of, to, to
recognize, oh, if they are mad,they will let me know.
And so I started developing thisconcept and kind of like
workshopping it a little bit.
And somebody said to me, oh,it's kind of like, uh, Dan
Siegel's window of, to Windowsof Tolerance.

(22:47):
And so if you're familiar withthat, that work at all, Dan
Siegel kind of talks about how,um, we have windows of tolerance
where we can stay regulated, andwhen we're outside those
windows, we get dysregulated.
This concept is a littledifferent because I'm not as
much talking about regulation,like, um, being self-regulated
for, for individual people, butmore so just talking about for

(23:09):
these types.
These are some of those thingsthat they get overwhelmed by, or
they get triggered by, or, okay,that's it.
I just have to say somethingnow.
Those sorts of experiences, sonot quite as, um, clinical or,
you know, related to necessarilymental health as what Dan Siegel
talks about.
Um, but that was the, thegenesis of the entire idea of

(23:32):
it.
The, I I feel like, like I, Iread about this and I
immediately made sense and sortof like clicked, like this is
now a thing that we are going toincorporate into our Enneagram
understanding.
Agree.
And I agree.
I think it's even a, it's even abetter way to understand
something that, that I've beenreally passionate about, which

(23:53):
is like.
For, uh, assertive orindependent types, the three
sevens and eights, there's partof them being disconnected from
that heart center is that theydon't understand their impact on
other people.
And another way to say that isthat the eights threshold for
conflict is so much higher thaneveryone else's.

(24:16):
And so they don't think they'rein a fight.
They, they don't un, theyliterally do not think that
whatever's happening is actuallyconflict.
Right.
And, and the rest of us do.
We are impacted by that.
And some of us are impactedsignificantly by that.
And so we think that that personis a jerk.

(24:36):
And it's like, no, no, your, mythreshold is low and theirs is
really high.
Mm-hmm.
And that, I love this.
It's a great way to understandthis concept.
And I love that, that it's, youincorporate something true about
each type into the, I likethresholds exist for all of us.
That's great.
Yeah.

(24:56):
So then I thought about, um, youknow, we all have these high
thresholds for certain thingsand then low thresholds for
other things.
So it started with type eight,and then I, you know, kind of
went around the circle, postedsome reels about it on Instagram
actually, and got a lot ofreally awesome feedback from
people saying, yeah, this istrue, or, no, not quite, or, I
don't understand what you meanby this.
And so that just kind ofdeveloped it further.

(25:19):
Love it.
I think that what, what I see,and we'll go through each of the
types again, but one of thethings that I see with high
thresholds is it's not just thatyou have a lot of capacity here,
but you also have a lot ofdesire for that space.
Um, many, many of us have a, astrong desire for the things
that are gonna be on the listfor, for our high threshold.

(25:41):
And the opposite is true of ourlow threshold.
Um, you have lists on avoidance.
Uh, we could put forth lists onfears.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, for each of the types.
Those sorts of things are gonnaplay into some of these as well.
But very, the really the, it'sworth the price of the book just
for, um, the, the lists thatstuff put together here, um, in,

(26:03):
and, uh, we are not gonna coverboth of them.
'cause you have two highthresholds and two low
thresholds for each types.
But why don't we, why don't wesave one just to just, it's a
breadcrumbs out there or it's a,what do you call that?
It's a lure.
It's, you need to buy the book.
Yeah.
There you go.
Yeah.
Um, but you start, you, uh, wellyou start your book with eights.

(26:24):
Mm-hmm.
Um, Enneagram informed personthat you are, we're starting
with the eights.
Do you have a, a reason why youlike starting with the eights?
I just like to keep theintelligence centers together.
I just think it's great.
Yep.
Yeah.
And what eights do though that Ilove is that if they don't
agree, they push back.
And that is such a good modelfor everyone else in the room to
say, oh, I don't have to justswallow all of this.

(26:46):
I can push back.
And say, I don't agree, and thenwe can talk about it.
And they actually get more outof the session that way.
That's excellent.
You gotta get people speaking.
Yeah.
It's a assertive type that youare and assertive type.
They are.
It's gonna, I guess that'strue's gonna move things
forward.
The, the problem with startingwith the ones is you end with
the nines who always get the,the shortest amount of time.

(27:07):
And this is a mistake, isn't it,tj?
Oh yeah.
Because we're often forgotten.
And then it just reinforces thatfeeling of forgottenness.
Mm-hmm.
And I do like to go back tonines too, at the end.
So I, I ask everyone to share.
You give them double time.
I do because they, when, whenthey first hear everything,
they're like, I don't, I don'tknow what to say.

(27:27):
Mm-hmm.
So they need time to process andthen we come back and then, you
know, they have more to shareand they have really good
insights.
It's delightful.
Uh, I agree with this, thisframing, starting with the
eights.
If it was possible to start withthe sevens and then go around
and leave the sixes for the end,because the sixes, then you can
say, okay, you've heardeverybody.
Now let's talk about you andyou'll actually see you.

(27:49):
Yeah.
Is, is also quite helpful.
Uh, but eights, you alreadymentioned it, eights starting
out have a high threshold forconflict in your, uh, just some
fresh words.
Um, anything else we're, we'resaying about that other than
what we just said?
No, I think it's what we talkedabout that we, yeah, no, I think

(28:10):
that's good.
Um, I think the other big partof that though is that if there
is conflict, I.
They are mad, they will let youknow.
Mm-hmm.
So you don't have to worry aboutit otherwise.
Mm-hmm.
I suppose on the flip side, wecan start, start there.
On the, the low threshold foreights.
What, what comes to your mindfirst?

(28:30):
Well, I think certainly thebetrayal and the incompetence.
Um, so with betrayal though, Ithink because eights are so
tough, sometimes people don'trecognize how sensitive they can
be and they'll, you know, aneight gets vulnerable and then
somebody makes a joke and thatis like, oh, I am never ever
going to do that again for theeight.

(28:52):
Mm-hmm.
You got thoughts on these,Steve?
Yeah.
I, I also think like about theincompetence idea.
It, I, I so often see it's noteven like be people being
incapable, but particularlypeople not doing things they are

(29:12):
capable of.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Like, like intentionalincompetence is just like, they
have no threshold for that.
No, not at all.
And it's, uh, I hate it.
As I'm looking at the two, thething that strikes me is that
there's many people who haverelationships with that may be
averse to getting into conflictwith them because they might

(29:35):
feel like they were.
Betraying them, and this isexactly the wrong move.
These actually go together.
Mm-hmm.
The, the eight is picking afight with you in order to see
whether or not you're on theirteam.
And those, those overlap.
And so they're expo the eightsfunction, kind of like a, you
know, like a bat.

(29:56):
They have a radar.
The, the conflict serves asunderstanding where they are in
the world, specifically onwhether or not you're reliable.
Are you strong enough to handleme?
Will you be with me in thefuture if things go sideways,
can you handle me at my worst?
And that's all getting put forthout there with that high.

(30:19):
Again, kind that high thresholdfor conflict is what I read in
your, in your lists there.
Yep.
Exactly.
Boom.
Any, any, any other words onaids?
No.
Boom.
Uh, this is a side note.
Well, we have lots.
I, I do wanna say one more thingabout the, uh, like high
threshold for conflict.
Uh,'cause I, I like coming backto you, you said that something

(30:44):
about, it doesn't matter whatyou said'cause I can't remember
it.
The, but the.
There is a sense of like eightswant to address the problem
mm-hmm.
Quickly and get over it so thatwe can move on.
Yeah.
And like one of the things thatwe teach is that, that eights,
once they deal with, once theyput the anger out there, it's

(31:05):
gone.
So eights can have a fight withsomeone and then go to lunch
with them.
Right, right.
And and I think part of that,like the idea of the high
threshold for conflict meansthat like once things get below
that threshold, it's notconflict anymore.
Right.
It doesn't feel like mired inthe emotional stuff.

(31:27):
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
A lot of us are gonna beprocessing for days, weeks, like
we might be angry aboutsomething for years that like,
it was one conversation that wehad years ago and we're still
holding onto that and eightsdon't wanna be weighed down by
all of that luggage, you know?
And like the, their highthreshold means that they get

(31:48):
through the conflict and thenit's over.
And, and what I can say aboutthat, that's so tricky for
eights is that when thathappens, when they find out this
person I was close with has beenstewing on this for years and
they never brought it up and nowthey're bringing it up, that
feels like betrayal.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Um, so like to, to Jeff's point,like they are.

(32:08):
You know, kind of intertwined ina sense.
Mm-hmm.
One thing that I think we'll seethrough a lot of these, I know
it comes up with nines, is thatthere's a problem solving
strategy for each of the types,what we call coping styles.
And that comes out here.
The, the eights solve problemsemotionally, eights gonna pause
for a minute and be veryassertive about the emotional

(32:31):
connection that they have withthe small circle that they have
around them when solvingproblems that seems to come out
mm-hmm.
Here on both sides, high andlow.
Mm-hmm.
You would think those are polarsand they're not, they're part of
the same way of getting theirmotive in the world.
Yeah.
Not feeling vulnerable, feelinglike they're strong and in
control.
Yes.
This high threshold for, forconflict is what feels like

(32:52):
conflict.
So it takes a lot to get there,but eights do not want to sit
around and just like swim inconflict.
They do not enjoy that.
They would rather becomfortable.
So that's, you know, where we'retalking about, they wanna get it
over with and like move onbecause they don't like to have
unresolved conflict.

(33:12):
Right.
I imagine we could, we couldtalk about how feeling
repression works in that space.
Especially, again, the primarymotive being, I don't wanna feel
vulnerable, I wanna feel likeI'm not being controlled by
others.
Mm-hmm.
All those emotions are gonna gettranslated into anger and that
again, notice there's the sweetspot between high threshold for

(33:33):
conflict and a desire not to bebetrayed.
Yeah.
Bang.
See such a great window intoeach of the types nines.
Yeah.
Uh, you wanna talk about the,the high and low threshold of
the nines there?
Sure.
So high threshold, um, I framethis as relentless optimism, and
what I mean is that nines tendto have a high threshold for

(33:57):
disorder in the sense that theyare optimistic that things are
going to work out, things willbe okay, even when other people
see disrepair.
So sub nines really resonatewith that cartoon of the, this
is Fine Dog by Casey Green.
They're just like, this is fine.
And it's not to say they're notaware of the problems.
Um, and tj I'm sure you cancorrect me if I'm wrong on this

(34:20):
or if you have a differentexperience.
No, that's, but sometimes theyjust think everyone makes such a
big deal out of everything andit doesn't really need to be
like that.
And they can just turn thevolume down on some of those
things.
And so they have that highthreshold and they're able to be
like, yeah, but it's gonna beokay.
It's gonna be fine.
And I'm like, it is not fine.
And the nine are like, it is,it's gonna be fine.

(34:42):
Um, yeah.
So I think that that can be askill that they have too.
Yeah, I don't gravitate towardthe word optimism, uh, because
I'm not naturally an optimist.
Uh, but, but there, there is asense of that openness to like,
we, we don't know how this thingis gonna land yet, so let's wait
until it lands to see whathappens.

(35:03):
Mm-hmm.
Um, yeah.
Positivity requires a whole lotless energy.
In my experience, especiallyignoring problems requires a lot
less energy in my experience.
For you dismissing the fact thatanything needs done that burns
way less calories.
That's, that's how, that's how Iread that.

(35:24):
Yeah.
I mean, I feel like I've foundmyself a lot in a, this like low
nine space.
Um, just, I kind of get therewhen I'm like stressed and I
have way too many things on myplate, and I'm like, it'll work
out how it works out.
Yeah.
And some things will get doneand some things won't, and in
the end it won't matter.
Yeah.

(35:45):
Though, as a three, I'm stilllike, in the end it will be
terrible.
But yeah.
It, it's no bad thing to, tolook through this list through
the spectrum mm-hmm.
Of stress moves as well.
I actually think that'sincredibly helpful.
My favorite stress move to watchis the three stress move from

(36:06):
three space to nine space.
Like, oh, okay, you're in bedall day now.
It's like, it's, this is asudden shift in our house.
Yeah.
It's different.
Um, yeah.
And then the low threshold, um,obviously conflict, um, I think
is the one that is talked aboutthe most though here.

(36:26):
I'd love to talk with you guysjust a little bit about the
other one that I, I named, whichis identifying similarities.
Do, and this came up afterteaching.
Um, I taught through the wholeEnneagram at the very end.
I said, what stood out to you?
You know, and I, I give people,I make people uncomfortable.
I give a lot of time for peopleto think of what they wanna say.

(36:49):
So finally a nine spoke up.
Um, and, and what I mean by thatis like, I, I let there be
silence and then people arelike, oh no, I guess I have to
say something.
And this nine.
Somebody else said, I was justthinking we're so different.
And the nine popped up and said,actually, I was just thinking
we're all so similar, like, andthey found threads of

(37:10):
commonality through all thetypes.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I think that's a skill thatnines have too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I totally agree with that.
Uh, and it, and we are at thetop of the Enneagram.
Mm-hmm.
So we get to see everyone elsemore clearly.
Uh, but also we, it means wedon't see ourselves as clearly,
as clearly.
Um, but that, that idea thatlike I, I do see, and, and even

(37:32):
within like within typingconversations that I might have
with other people, I seesimilarities of the way that
they're describing something,being like the thing that
they're saying is not true.
Like this is actually a big partof why Jeff and I have so many
conversations about language isbecause I see the similarity

(37:52):
within the one word that hedoesn't like to the concept
that's actually true.
And like that is all over theplace.
With nines, we see the way thatthings connect to each other.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I think one of the downfallsof it is not being able to see
that you are a distinct person,right?
Mm-hmm.
Like that you have acontribution to make, or that

(38:15):
you have something that makesyou inherently like worthy and
desirable.
That I think nine sometimes missthat.
A couple things that strike mehere.
That sounds to me like a virtue,the way that it's being
presented, that I, the abilityto identify similarities being a
virtue.
It may appear that low thresholdis somehow a negative, but

(38:39):
apparently that's not the case.
Yeah, no, I'm, I mean, I thinkthey're both kind of neutral.
Just good to know.
Yeah.
There you go.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
I suppose I didn't think aboutit the other side of that skill
being identified here, um, itseems to me what, what I heard
there is that nine's abilitiesto identify similarities is

(39:02):
paired with their, um, desirefor conflict free environments.
Uh, and if, if, uh, if somebodycan showcase where there is
mutuality and overlap in, um,both in, in perhaps target
schools, um, who you are in theworld, don't you both realize
that you both lost your fatherswhen you were young will cut

(39:25):
through a fight very fast, but anine will see that.
It's like, you know what, thisis why.
Why you are going the directionsthat you are.
Mm-hmm.
Past tools probably, uh, beingemployed there and, um, yeah.
And again, just, uh, peace is alot, a lot less, uh, it takes a

(39:45):
lot less calories than war.
Yeah, true.
I hear war is expensive.
Yeah.
Though one of the nines Iinterviewed talked about how if
people are having some simmeringdisagreement beneath the
surface, that she is like, look,just don't bring it up.
You can have that disagreementand as long as we don't talk
about it, I'm fine.

(40:05):
Um, and I thought that wasreally interesting because when
I think of peace and harmony, Ithink of no disagreements, no
discord, but this nine wastalking about how she's like,
just don't let it surface whenI'm in the room.
Um, which I also think is a gooddistinction from twos because I
think twos are more willing tobe like, oh, I see this
happening and I'm gonna fix it.

(40:26):
And nine are like, let's justkeep the peace.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
If this is a big enough deal,then we can deal with it later.
Right.
Even though later it's not apoint in time.
This isn't a positive or anegative.
There's an intuitive, uh,predisposition of nines to say
most problems will solvethemselves.

(40:47):
And this is notices how thatoverlaps.
We talked about stress moves,notices, how that would overlap
with the nine stress move.
It's when anxiety actually pops.
That's it has an energy of, no,now I probably need to do
something about this.
Um, but until then I couldprobably sit and Yeah.
And it's, it's, it's gradeschool science.

(41:08):
Everything is trying to reach anequilibrium and, and
homeostasis.
The universe itself is trying toreach a homeostasis.
And if we just wait long enough,the pessimistic way of
articulating that is everythingis dying.
Yeah.
And exactly.
It's gonna become cold.
Why are we fighting about theseagain?

(41:31):
We're all gonna burn up in thesun.
Even dust.
You are into dust.
You are will return isapparently one of those things.
It's outlined real early on andmeanwhile the nines are watching
like threes out here on earthtrying to earn their, you know,
right.
To exist.
And they're like, well that'sexhausting.
I'm not doing that.

(41:51):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
I like gold stars, Steph.
I'll have, you know.
Alright.
Threes in once we're earning ourright to exist.
The, any of you eights thatwanna jump on board, you're
welcome.
Um, they don't have to earn itthough.
They got it speaking.
Yeah.

(42:12):
Speaking of ones.
Who will spend only a shortamount of time on, uh, you wanna
talk about high and lowthreshold for one?
Sure.
So, uh, high threshold foreffort.
Um, in that once have a highthreshold for what feels like
enough effort.
Like I was commenting, uh,listeners, I was commenting
before we went on air.
This is the most prep I've everbeen given for a podcast

(42:34):
interview and I've done like 60,70 podcast interviews.
The three is saying that this islike the best prep.
Yes.
The best prep.
Um, and I think that once havethat tendency to be like, oh, I
could just do like a little bitmore.
Um, and so they, they always putmore effort into whatever

(42:55):
they're doing, uh, what'simportant to them.
Um, and they wanna make thingsexcellent.
And so, you know, that can be agood thing.
And then sometimes they canreally overdo it or, you know,
end up getting really frustratedwhen other people aren't doing
enough.
I have zero thoughts on that.
You got that?
No notes.
No notes.
Uh, I, you, you basically justdescribed my whole relationship

(43:16):
with Jeff, so, uh, well, andit's a good thing too when, when
a one can be like, this is whatI feel like is necessary.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm going to do it.
And the other person can say, Ilove that you can do that.
If that's what you feel like isnecessary, you know, and decide.
You, you enjoy repainting thehouse one.

(43:37):
Yeah.
I did not think that wasnecessary.
Yeah.
But, uh, it's also like in thesense of relationship building,
like this is something that Jeffand I talk about a lot, that
there is, if you're going to bepartnered with a one, whether
it's business partners or, or,or brothers or uh, or like a

(43:57):
romantic partner or whatever,like if you are going to be in
close relationship with a one,you're probably going to be
building something togetherbecause they, they have a high
threshold for like, what ittakes to get things done.
And that means you're gonna behelping them build it.
You're gonna be helping them dothe things that need to get
done, and, and that is part ofhow they do relationship.

(44:21):
Yeah.
And I think that you just haveto talk about expectations with
ones because mm-hmm.
And, and threes too.
I'm, you know, I'm not sayingI'm exempt from that, but like,
I think talking aboutexpectations with ones is really
helpful.
Mm-hmm.
Because otherwise you will haveconflict.
Yeah.
I'm finding, uh, that I'mbecoming more and more blind to,

(44:43):
to ones, and I've decided thisis the type I know the least
about be.
Um, mostly because I, I lean soheavily into my intuitive
knowledge of myself as opposedto actually talking to other
ones about how this all worksfor them.
My intuitive knowledge of myselfon, on this front to wrap up the
body triad here ends up beingthe.

(45:06):
Where, where the eights are veryaware of the threats to their
autonomy, where nines are veryaware of the threats to just
feeling good in the world, one'sintuitively in a similar way.
And it's a similar to threes insome sense, that there's a,
there's an intuitive sense thatI need things to be moving
forward if things are not movingforward.

(45:28):
That means danger.
That means that things, some,something isn't going well.
There's something about slow,steady progress that makes me
feel as though things are rightwith the world.
And that can manifest in allkinds of different ways.
But that's what I, what I seehere.
And so, and part of that'smyself.

(45:49):
I'm alive, thriving, not gonnaget sick and die by the side of
the road if I'm able to exert mywill in the world over the
things that I care about,specifically over myself first.
Mm-hmm.
And then that spills out intothe rest of the world.
That's, I suppose, how I readsome of this.
Yeah.
Um, I think that's true.

(46:09):
And I think sometimes ones, wedon't talk enough about the
efficiency piece of ones.
Um, like, I think that's really,really strong.
Uh mm-hmm.
For ones, um, it's gonna bedifferent, different from the
three where the, there's a timeelement to the three in terms of
efficiency.

(46:30):
There is a, um, progress, evendepthy.
Side to efficiency.
Like, I want this, I want thisto matter, I want it to have
base, I want it to, thefoundational matters need to get
taken care of.
So my wife and I, um, have areal estate business, as it
were.
She's very aware of the, theface, the facade, the, all the

(46:52):
things that folks can see.
Nearly 80% of my time is dealingwith contractors who are bearing
through the earth, you know,putting into place very
expensive things that nobodywill ever notice.
And yeah.
But I do understand that if thisdoesn't get get done, like
everything else doesn't functionas it were.

(47:13):
Right.
And these are on my mind andwhat you said about slow and
steady progress, that is notsomething three has gravitate
toward.
Right.
So low threshold, get it done.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Low threshold.
So low threshold for ones.
Um, this one trips a lot ofpeople up.
So one have a low threshold forcriticism.
And when I first shared this onInstagram, people were like, no

(47:35):
way.
Like a seven in particular waslike, no way.
They're so critical.
And I was like, they are so muchmore critical of themselves.
Mm-hmm.
With maybe the exception of somesexual ones.
And like that small remark thatsomebody makes, might, they
might really internalize it andmake them feel blamed or
accused.
And that's like the thing thatthey wanna avoid.

(47:56):
Right.
Um, and so.
They can be critical of otherpeople, but like, they feel
really wounded when they feelcriticized because look at what
they just did.
They did all that effort, andnow you're telling them it
wasn't enough.
Um, and that can be really,really hard for ones got that
seed.
I mean, I, that's, I, I thinkthat's a, um, a way to really

(48:21):
bring up the, the reality thatevery single time you say
something negative to a oneabout them or about something
they've done, there's a reallygood chance that they've alway
already been through it in theirown mind.
Like they've already gonethrough all of the things that
you're trying to say to them,and there's a pretty good chance

(48:44):
of they've also been harsher onthemselves.
Yeah.
About it.
And, and there's, there's, so eespecially when leading or
working with people that, likeyou're, you're producing
something and you have to.
Like, go over what happened.
So like we, we were pastorstogether and like going, doing a

(49:05):
postmortem every Sunday is aterrible idea for, for ones
because they're already goingthrough all of the things they
did wrong last Sunday.
They don't need to have a wholeconversation with someone else
about it.
And, and so like coming to thatwith the knowledge that like the
threshold for ones on thiscriticism point is, is so low

(49:27):
that like you, it's, it's somuch easier to say, Hey, did you
know about this thing that wentwrong?
And they say yes.
And you're like, okay, great.
Done.
It's, that problem is alreadysolved.
You don't have to like harp onit about harp on about it or
anything.
Yeah.
They need a very light touchwhen it comes to that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if even if you bring likeseven things they did well and

(49:49):
one thing they did wrong,they're not gonna hear the
seven.
Mm-hmm.
Like, they, they will hear itand then immediately forget
because then they'll be focusingon the one thing they did wrong.
That never happens to threes bythe way.
Right?
No, we only focus, no, we are,uh, our own worst critics as
well.
But the thing that I also haveto think about is, you know, of

(50:10):
course there are times when onesdo need to be confronted for
something that is going wrong.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so Jeff, I'm curious howyou would say this is a good way
to do it.
I was going to, to so to, tocomment on this.
I.
The, that's actually, I don't, Idon't know what the prescription
is, but here's the insight.

(50:32):
I think that especially thosewho are not body types need to
see you.
Heart types and head types.
You'll know an eight, you'llhave seen an eight.
Unleash their anger on some soulwho didn't deserve it, the
identical anger that the aid hasthat goes outwards.

(50:53):
Imagine that turned inwards atoneself.
And that's where the one livesin that they have a target of
their constant.
Um, it, it, I don't want to usethe word like fury or anything,
but that, that energy is goinginwardly consistently.
And that's the, the whatmanifests sometimes as

(51:16):
perfectionism is that.
And so if, if unfortunately for,for those, the ones, uh, and
those who love ones, if thecriticism comes, what's really
happening is you're jumping ontop of that anger and you're
riding that wave alongside itinto the one, or you're giving
more energy to the anger that'salready going, going inward.

(51:39):
Mm-hmm.
So with that in mind, ones, youneed to do your work.
Mm-hmm.
You need to do real work onyourself so that your
relationships are better so thatpeople can be honest with you.
Yeah.
And I, I, I realize, notice howI'm criticizing the one in order
to get them to stop criticizingthemselves this, this is a
terrible doom loop that onesexperience.

(51:59):
Um, but there's something about,about healthy ones and unhealthy
ones that you're probably gonnasee here.
Yeah.
I mean, really if, if we thinkabout the relationships that we
have with ones that areunhealthy, it's probably in
some, something like this space.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I, with all that said, Ihave no idea how to talk to
ones.
Well, I think that's, that doesanswer my question in a sense,

(52:21):
because what happens withunhealthy ones is they are so
averse to feeling blamed oraccused that they are incapable
of acknowledging like.
Somebody else having a complaintor a criticism.
So yeah, they, they can'texperience more pain than they
already are feeling.
And so they just psychologicallylike, block it out.

(52:43):
Yeah.
And it becomes, it turns intothat, uh, the, the sensitive,
the hypersensitivity of, oflike, I, I already know that I
messed that up.
What, why are you bringing thisto me now?
Like, it, it, it sort of turnsoutward.
Yeah.
Yep.
The other thing that, I mean, itjust rolls.
This is just one of those spots.
Every type has this, it's a spotthat's just a doom loop.

(53:06):
And this just happens to be theone for ones.
But if you bring up the pastwith ones, what you're actually
doing is inviting them to getinto their stress number,
because ones are presentoriented for the most part, but
Foreignness has a voice andcriticism specifically is gonna
gonna be in that low four space.
It's not high four space.

(53:27):
There's lots of great things forones in four space.
But, but, but the, the place ofcriticism will, will kind, so
that can be an uncomfortable,um, spot for, for the one to be
in.
And so one of the things thatyou'll see, and you may have
seen this, the verbal processingthat ones can do.
It can often come out as veryself-critical, but they're

(53:50):
trying to beat you to the punch.
They, they want everybody toknow out there.
Look, I realized that uh, X wasbroke and y was broken, Z was
broke and that was probably onme.
Don't say anything else'cause Idon't need you riding the wave
of, of, of inward energy as itwere.
And the verbal processing cancome out in those ways.
Yeah.
Um, I'm sure there's a greatanswer to how do you deliver

(54:14):
criticism to a one?
Um, well for starters, if you'renot in a relationship with them
and they don't trust that youcare about them, you might as
well skip it.
Like that doesn't mean you haveto be best friends with your
employees who are one, like it,it means that they need to trust
that you are, are wanting themto thrive.

(54:37):
Yeah.
And, and be more whole and that,that you care about and, and
potentially that you thinkthey're good already and here's
a piece that might need to beworked on.
Like, if you're coming to a onewithout any kind of foundation,
then they're only going to beable to hear criticism.

(54:58):
'cause they don't have thatthing to, to rest on, to know
that, oh, this person doesn'thate me, they're just bringing
me this thing.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Um, last word on that.
'cause I think that's, that'sreally valuable.
What, what you're just doing isinviting a person to get
defensive, that's actually whatwe'll probably spell out.

(55:19):
Mm-hmm.
They'll, the justifications willand justifications end up, you,
you talked about this, don'tyou?
Um, there are defense mechanismsfor the one.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Well, another fantastic thing inSteph's book, by the way, is the
list of defense mechanisms.
And, and they might be defensiveand then they go away and then
they come back.
Mm-hmm.
Or they go away, they process,they internalize it, you know.

(55:41):
Um, so yeah, that can happen.
Ones are a lot more sensitive, Ithink, than, than we recognize.
Yeah.
Speaking of sensitive, let'stalk about twos move on to heart
types.
All three heart types are, uh,pretty sensitive, I'd say.
So, um, twos have a highthreshold for expectations, um,

(56:03):
and really demands that can beplaced on them.
Um, so they expect a lot ofthemselves, and when other
people expect something of them,they really strive to meet or
exceed those expectations.
So they kind of think, oh, thisis the way to establish rapport.
I'm gonna impress these people.
I'm going to show them, youknow, how dedicated I am to this

(56:26):
project or this relationship,or, or whatever it might be.
Um.
This is one of the things that'cause people do get confused a
lot between nines and twos, andthis is one of the, the ways
that I think nines and twos arereally different.
Um, they have a really differentresponse to people demanding
something of them.
Um, TJ what would you say aboutthat?
I'd say when people demandsomething of me, that is, that

(56:48):
is the way to get me to not dosomething, is to tell me that I
have to Yeah.
Yeah.
Because nines are soindependent.
Yeah.
Um, even though they're warm andrelational, they still have that
independent streak that's alittle bit different from twos
being like, yeah, I'm here.
I'm gonna do it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well said.
Yeah.
Uh, you can, it one could easilyimagine a picture like a, a

(57:14):
child who intuitivelyunderstands like good gift
giving, and then that getsreinforced and it grows and like
they become better at it andthey get, it gets reinforced and
they become better at it and itgets reinforced.
And then you have like a 30something year old who is so

(57:34):
good at getting things for otherpeople.
Yeah.
And that is part of how theyunderstand who they are.
Mm-hmm.
Is that, that they have thishigh, like the bar for them of
like, what is too much to ask ofme is really high.
And like two unhealthy levels.

(57:54):
Twos will do things that you,that they think you expect.
Yeah.
To an unhealthy degree.
And yes.
And, and I think it'sinteresting sometimes because I
can get into to some conflictwith, um, twos when they help me
and I think, well, that was onyou.
I didn't ask for it.

(58:15):
Right.
And I didn't, you know, tell youthat's what I wanted or
whatever.
And you're an adult and you candecide not to do that.
Mm-hmm.
And then later realizing, oh,that actually was a way that I
could have had a more openconversation.
Uh, maybe I could haveapproached that differently
because they actually did havean expectation.
And so that's, that's kind oftheir work.

(58:37):
I don't need to jump into theirbrain and, and, and do that kind
of work for them, but um, alsofor me as a friend to be aware
of that tendency.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Talking a lot about thedirection of energies.
And actually helpful charts areavailable in Steph's book on
this front.
Um, step borrows theillustrations from Risso and

(58:57):
Hudson, which showcase how eachof the types energy is moving
outward.
We already talked about eightminute energy moving outward,
one's moving inward.
That's how This's gonna workwith twos, twos energy is going.
Outward.
Mm-hmm.
And as opposed to eights who arepushing outward to get control,
twos are pushing outward inorder to get attention.
Mm-hmm.
And they're doing so in thesesorts of ways.

(59:19):
What are the expectations?
How can I meet them?
How can I earn my place in thisthis spot?
Yeah.
And connection takes place if,if something is reciprocated.
Right?
And so on the flip side, the lowthreshold is rejection, right?
Um, and it's not just like,choose wanna avoid rejection
because we all kind of knowthat, but like, they're

(59:40):
particularly sensitive to whatfeels like rejection.
So things that you might notfeel like are rejection, like
dismissing their help ordismissing their affection or
dismissing any attempt atbuilding rapport or
encouragement.
Any of those things really feelfor a two.
Like I, my identity, my coreself has been rejected.

(01:00:02):
Um, which can really wound them.
Um, and it can be really hardbecause as twos, if twos haven't
done a lot of inner work yet,they are like, well, of course
everyone needs my help andaffection.
What, what do you mean you don'twant that?
What do you mean I can't bringyou something?
Or, or whatever.
Um, and so that's part of theirwork that they're doing is

(01:00:25):
recognizing, oh, like it's okayfor somebody to say, no, I don't
need that, or No, I don't wantthat.
And then for the two to be like,we're okay.
And I'm okay.
Um.
And so that can be really,really tricky.
Um, and when other people aren'taware of it, sometimes you might
say, oh no, I can't get togetherfor coffee today because I've

(01:00:47):
got something else going wronggoing on.
Um, but for a two that can feelchallenging if the, the other
person doesn't say, Hey, butlet's do it tomorrow.
Something like that.
Right.
Right.
We, we say, uh, no, I can't dothat.
They hear, you don't want to dothat with me.

(01:01:08):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's why I hear it.
It's, they're processingrelationally.
Two fours and sixes mm-hmm.
Are gonna all processrelationally.
They're, they are processingthrough the connection that they
have with the person in front ofthem based on the gift that
they're giving.
They're part of the ionisttriad.
So we already mentioned this.
Two fives and eights are givinggifts outwardly in order to

(01:01:28):
establish connections.
And there it is.
Are you connected to me?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I think people don't realizethis about twos because twos are
so warm.
They're always there for you.
Right.
So people don't think that theycould get their feelings hurt
that easily because twos don'tlike to show that stuff.
They only show positive stuff alot of the time unless they feel

(01:01:50):
very safe.
And so that can be really hard.
Would you speak to what yourexperience of twos actually
understanding that they're hurtin their own self sense of their
own emotional life?
Um.
I think it can be hard.
I think it can be something thatthey kind of block out.
So one of the questions that Iask is, um, what happens when
people don't like you?

(01:02:11):
Mm-hmm.
And I have worked with twosbefore who said, I don't, I
don't know.
I've never really had thatexperience.
Um, and that's their genuineexperience and also it's really
intolerable for them toexperience like that they don't
like me because they're lookingfor that image and that
likability and lovability to bemirrored back to them.

(01:02:31):
Yeah.
That's where they look for it.
Yeah.
We talked about the relentlessoptimism of nines.
Mm-hmm.
There the same again, there's a,there's a pairing here of
sevens, twos, and nines.
They're gonna, those sorts ofproblems of, of, of, of solving
the problem optimistically orwith a positive outlook is all
over that response is what Ihear.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

(01:02:52):
Bang.
Yeah.
Threes.
Let's go.
Alright.
So threes have a high thresholdfor productivity in that we
don't think that there is alimit to how much we could
conceivably accomplish in a day.
Um, so doing is not just aboutworking, but like anything, so

(01:03:13):
this is, people always criticizeme about this.
They say, you only talk aboutworkaholism or a nine to five
job with threes.
And I'm like, no, I'mcategorizing all of our
housework to-do list goals,commitments, all of those things
as work.
Those are the things that threespay attention to, in addition to
if they have a regularfull-time, nine to five job.

(01:03:33):
Um, so an example, the other dayI was really tired.
I went home, I had a littlesiesta, ate lunch, took a nap,
and then I had to go back to myoffice.
So, and then I had a call withsome, an agram friends later in
the night, and I was like, allright, I'm gonna get these two
things done.
Normally what would happen is Iwould have a list of 15 things I

(01:03:54):
wanted to accomplish in the twohours that I had between my, my
nap and my call.
And then I would feel bad aboutmyself because I didn't get it
all done.
And I said, no, I'm gonna do twothings.
And I told this to, to theseEnneagram friends and they were
like 15 things.
Like, whatcha thinking like twothings is more than enough.

(01:04:15):
Like, you know, you could do onething, you know?
And, um, it's a huge blind spotthat threes have.
'cause we just think, no, Ishould be able to get all of
this stuff done.
I've been, uh, pondering for,for most of my life.
I'm a, I'm a late person.
I, I come from people who arelate people and, uh, like, it,

(01:04:36):
like it, it's a family joke thatmy, my, anyway, um, the, there
is something about.
The way that like a lot ofpeople, a lot of late people
don't understand how long thingstake.
Mm-hmm.
And that's, that's certainly myissue.
Like if, if it takes 10 minutesto go across town, it takes 10

(01:04:58):
minutes to go across town.
But also I need to factor in theamount of time it takes me to
put my shoes on and coat and getout the door.
And now I have a 4-year-oldthat, like, she adds time to
that.
And also with traffic it takes15 minutes and, but in my mind
it's still 10 minutes.
The similarly there is so muchenergy and let's say, uh,

(01:05:26):
optimism about what, how, whatthrees think they're capable of.
Mm-hmm.
And, and so like coming at theworld is like, there, there's so
much opportunity to do things.
Yeah.
There's so many things that wecan and should do.
And, and by that I mean like wecan do all of the groceries and

(01:05:46):
all of the, all like groceries,dry cleaning, go to the bank.
Like all of these things can bethe morning tasks.
And it's like, yeah.
But for some of us, that's aweek, that's a week of tasks.
Right.
And you know that getting theproductivity of getting things
done is, if you can check itoff, man, that's.

(01:06:07):
Yeah.
That's great.
Yeah, I mean, this is a thingthat I've continually done.
So like the past couple years, Ihaven't been very active on
Instagram.
Mm-hmm.
In large part because I've beenwriting books and, um, I had
gotten to a place where I had myconsulting side of my business,
then I had Instagram and podcastand newsletter, and then

(01:06:29):
courses.
So all of those things, and thenpiled books on top of that.
Mm-hmm.
So I am one person and I have anassistant and doing all of this,
like having like this whole likemultimedia situation happening
mm-hmm.
That is not feasible.
Yeah.
And I am just now kind ofaccepting that.
Um, but I got so burned outbecause I was like, what is

(01:06:52):
wrong with me that I can't dothis?
You're human Right.
That's what's wrong.
Right.
I have to sleep, unfortunately.
Yeah.
The phrase, what's wrong with meends up being what pops for me
most in the mm-hmm.
Uh, the list.
Because alongside ones andeights, the, the three
processing with action's a realthing.

(01:07:12):
Like I am, I'm processingwhether or not I'm good in the
world based on what I'm doing.
Mm-hmm.
One of the things that my wiferoutinely says about other
people, I love your thoughts onthis, is that other people are
mirrors, uh, telling me if I'mgood in the world.
And I can, I can check to seewhether or not, you know, to, to
shorthand it whether I havevalue based on the responses

(01:07:35):
that I get from the person infront of me.
So it may like the, I would bereal curious.
You got your checklist, but ifyou don't tell anybody about
your checklist, that's alsoanother element to this.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, though I think I am lesslikely to tell all the people
about my checklist, but that'sonly probably because my work is

(01:07:59):
so public facing.
Oh, sure.
So people can see if I'm doing agood job or not.
So really the mirror ends upbeing you, you have channels,
right.
Already established.
Yeah.
And this would, this would bewhere the feedback is.
And I've got a publisher who'slike, Hey, what, where are you
with By the, I am by the way,there's, there are two

(01:08:21):
publishers in the world that Iwould actually wanna work with,
one of which is, is CarryingStuff's book.
So no, no small, no smallaccomplishment there.
Yeah.
So well done there.
Um, the.
Processing with action came outin my statements about the ones,
but it's another thing that I'veheard threes talk about is that
they feel as though they'resharks.

(01:08:42):
Mm-hmm.
It's, it's the movement.
It's, I, I am constantly moving.
That processing with action kindof has that element.
I'm constantly moving becausethis is me being good in the
world.
Like, I recognize that you overthere five need time alone and
on a beach somewhere.
This is not how rest works.

(01:09:03):
This is not how I feel alive.
This is not how I, I, I check inwith myself to see if I'm doing
well.
I understand if I'm doing wellbased on the fact that I'm
getting these pings mm-hmm.
From, from the world based on medoing the things that are worthy
of pings.
Yeah.
And, and so what can bechallenging is like we have to

(01:09:24):
reevaluate where that worthcomes from because it's actually
not good for us to only getworth from movement.
Right.
And in the past year inparticular, I've had some pretty
significant health challenges towhere I physically can't mm-hmm.
Work or move or whatever.
And, um, that's hard.

(01:09:44):
Mm-hmm.
This would be something.
Okay, so this is underlying allof our conversation.
I would love to breach it as aunproductive, uh, footnote here,
but in, in Enneagram world,they're here.
There's, here's your motive, andsometimes you have to die to
your motive, or sometimes youneed to set your motive aside
for something else.
I wanna say that you put in,it's not the holy ideas, it's a

(01:10:04):
different one.
Uh, it's the other list, thevirtues, or maybe it is holy
ideas.
I, I saw holy ideas.
I think it is holy ideas, wherethe holy idea is in some ways a,
um, a mature posture for thetype that removes the negative
power of their motive.
I know for, for ones it'sserenity, and so in some sense,

(01:10:26):
being in a seren, embracing aserene space mm-hmm.
The, the virtues.
But, but yeah, like what I, howI perceive it is like what the,
uh, passion is trying to do is,yeah, this is, these are ways
that I can get to the virtue andlike create like a false sense
of the virtue.
Right?
Um, and so the inner workactually brings you back to the

(01:10:46):
actual virtue, which is, youknow, for, for one, serenity for
three is veracity of, um, Itried to create that sense of
worthiness and self through selfdeceit, but then what I actually
have to do is come to it adifferent way and find veracity.
Yeah.

(01:11:06):
Finding, yeah, go ahead.
Well, I think, I think that alsotouches on, like we, we talked
about the energy, uh, going inorder outward and, and with
threes, sixes, and nines, it, itdoes both.
Mm-hmm.
And so that, that image, thatthat mirror place that, that
like threes are looking forlike, did I do well?
Do I get a gold star?

(01:11:27):
That that image that they'retrying to maintain is not just
outward facing.
It's, it's not just tell me likelooking for a mirror reflection
to say that I did, did this.
Well, it's also like that, thatthey've put that image inside of
them.
So, so even the accomplishingthe 15 tasks on the list, even

(01:11:50):
if you don't share that list,you're still meeting a certain
set of expectations that youhave internalized as this is
what makes me a successfulhuman.
This is what makes me a, a goodstay at home mom as the this
list of things.
Uh, and so like some of thataccomplishment is not just

(01:12:10):
needed needing externalvalidation, but you've already
projected that image inside.
And, and so a lot of that workis about understanding that,
that that view of yourself isalso an image, right.
And questioning.
You know, where did this listeven come from?
Because that Right.
We just absorb it.

(01:12:31):
Right?
Yeah.
Um, so then the low thresholdfor type three is, is really
similar.
So it's about failure, somm-hmm.
Experiences that other peopledon't really consider to be
failure.
Threes do.
So it could be the end of arelationship or something small
going wrong, or a project notgoing as planned, um, or, you
know, serving dinner in a dishbeing slightly less tasty than

(01:12:53):
it was last time.
Mm-hmm.
Um, all those things can feellike failure, but threes, when
you ask them, when's the lasttime you failed?
A lot of the time they don'thave anything to tell you.
Right.
Because they have all theselittle things throughout the
day, but they don't really do,we don't do things very often
that we will epically fail at.

(01:13:14):
Um, and then if we do, we blockit out.
One place that I see that being,uh, overcome is, is when
failures are in the distantpast.
And so, like, like some, somefolks who are threes, there are
speakers that are kind of likeself-help kind of speakers will
say, 10 years ago, let me tellyou about where I was down and

(01:13:37):
out and things were going verybadly.
It's so disgusting.
Let me picture this.
But, and then the story willemerge of triumph and, and
overcoming the odds and I dunno,moving forward.
Yeah.
The thing I would say about thatis threes love to turn their
failures into an incomeopportunity or like monetize it

(01:13:58):
or turn it into some, somethingin some way and find utility in
it.
And I think the challenge forthrees is to feel the sorrow and
the sadness.
Ooh.
And the depth of the failure andwhat that feels like.
Um, and to then eventually beable to hold their own personal

(01:14:19):
sense of self-worth as well torecognize I'm not a failure, but
I did fail at this.
You know, but I tried, but Ifailed.
Um, and to hold both.
It makes me think about, uh, inyour, your, like very, the very
intro of the book, you, youdescribe some of the ways that

(01:14:39):
like you experienced burnout ata particular time and then like,
I.
Toward the end of the intro, youexplained that like your
original version of this introwas succinct and clean, and
like, let's get into the book,and then you rewrote it and
included all of this other stuffthat was like, real from your
life.

(01:15:00):
And it just made me think oflike, what, what, what kind of
stuff is she leaving out?
Like, what's not in there?
Because like you, you do such agood job of explaining like,
there, there were some, I don'twanna say failures, but some
things went wrong for you.
And like, you, you have to talkabout that in moving forward.

(01:15:21):
And uh, so yeah, that was,there's not a question or
anything there, it's justsomething I noticed.
Yeah, I mean, it is alwaysfunny, right?
'cause people will be like, oh,you're so successful, or you're
so impressive and I'm like, me.
Mm-hmm.
You don't know.
You don't even know.
Right.
And it's funny because like I dohave that experience of feeling
like I'm not ever doing enoughsimilar to the, the ones, right?

(01:15:43):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and getting feedbackthat's different from that.
And so, um, I think that's oneof the times that maybe I could
take a little bit more feedbackand be like, oh, maybe I should
be kinder to myself, you know?
Sure.
When I hear from threes isn'tjust that they want to appear

(01:16:04):
successful as it were.
I don't think that's actuallythe, the motive.
The motive is that the threeactually wants to be successful.
And the appearances arevaluable, but so much richer is
the honest, authentic triumph.
Yeah.
As opposed to like, if I, youknow, I hand you a, a something,
I printed off my computer, itsays, you know, Harvard

(01:16:26):
University, you know, psychologydegree, step Baron Hall.
This, it may appear as though,but like, you understand the,
the difference and everybodyunderstands the difference.
And what I do hear from three,like the, the, the pursuit of,
of of, of truly praiseworthy,um, endeavors, accomplishments,
and the rest is Yeah.
Underlying that heart.

(01:16:47):
And to get there, this is, Isuppose this is a long way
around.
To get there, you have to feelthe depth of the failures at
times to understand your placein the world and how all these,
such that those triumphs areactually rich and worthy.
Yeah.
I would agree with that.
Okay.
Type four.
You, you've ta you, you've takenover the leadership.

(01:17:09):
I have, and I do tend to dothat.
And I'm sorry, being anassertive side, as, as long as
you feel like you don't feellike we are holding you back, or
like you have enough time.
Uh, no.
If you, if, if you are timeconstrained, I will push the
pace, but if, if not, then I'mentirely fine with No, I'm fine.
I'm just, you're ready to go.
Uh, I, I think, uh, I often haveabout a minute to go through

(01:17:32):
each type, so, right.
Sure.
It's, we sit back with our beersand So what's the story about
fives anyway?
Okay.
Uh, Leah's in fours.
So fours, um, have a highthreshold for emotion and
emotional expression.
Um, and I wanna say not allfours wear their emotions right

(01:17:56):
out there and always expressthem.
Some fours don't necessarily dothat, but fours have an
incredible depth for like howmuch emotion they can handle.
Um, we were just talking aboutthrees, who we, we don't tend to
have that, that depth, um, forthat, and it feels really
intolerable, but, but fours cantalk about their feelings or

(01:18:19):
they can move toward theiremotions.
They can explore them and theydon't try to paper over them or
repress them.
They just kind of investigate.
And so they have that reallyhigh threshold for that.
Um, and I think a good way tothink about it is, like I
mentioned in juxtaposition tolike threes or sevens who we
don't have that same capacity toexplore.

(01:18:42):
Um, and so with that, sometimes,you know, fours are a lot more
willing to talk about it for alot longer.
Um, whereas other people arelike, all right, that's enough
of that and let's move on.
Um mm-hmm.
And, and forests tend to justhave a lot more space.
Yeah.
Uh, in a, in a world of, um,boys are taught when they're

(01:19:05):
young that they're not supposedto cry.
Right.
And, uh, one of my best friends,one of the friends of the
podcast is, uh, a male four whocries at lots and lots and lots
of things.
We, we all joke about how we're,uh, movie criers.
And, uh, he in particular is amovie crier.
And, uh, he, he gets moved by alot of things and he still has

(01:19:27):
that sense of, it's not shame,but like, like you, you joke
about the fact that you cry atmovies all the time to cover up
for the fact that you cry atmovies all the time.
Right.
And, and it's, it struck me theother day.
He said something about it andit, it struck me that like he
just has a higher capacity forfeeling his emotions.

(01:19:50):
Yeah.
And it, it's not necessarilythat he's wearing them all the
time or that he's talking aboutthem all the time.
He does talk about them a lot.
But, but, and there's nothingwrong with that.
Like he, he literally has ahigher capacity for feeling them
than a lot of people that Iknow.
And, and I would put that in,into the same bucket as that,

(01:20:10):
like emotional expression, likethe threshold for just having
emotions.
Mm-hmm.
Like it, they just, they justhave them and they're okay with
having them.
I thing that hits me again, endsup being notice what, uh, the
heart types want.
They want attention anddirection comes into play.

(01:20:31):
We had talked about the twosseeking that attention from the
world out there and havingnearly all of their chips on,
will these other people give meattention?
And it's the exact opposite forfours.
Yeah.
That, that directional arrow ispointing inwards.
And so giving attention towhat's within them is the place
that they're getting theirattention first.

(01:20:54):
And then the question kind ofspills out similar to, to ones
in terms of it spilling out tothe world.
Like, will other people grabhold of this?
Will other people be captivatedby the, by the thing that I am
witnessing within my.
Self.
And if they do, we're gonnaconnect.
And if they don't, then I'lljust remain kind of
misunderstood because nobodysees the, the things that I've

(01:21:15):
seen about my inner life.
And all three of the heart typesare really looking for
mirroring.
So like that's, you know, thatconcept again.
Um, and I think that fourstypically start with that
internally.
So like when I talk about themotivation for force, I talk
about how they wanna find andexpress their truest identity.
Like they kind of just have thisbelief that I have to push

(01:21:37):
inward even further tounderstand the truest parts of
myself.
Um, but then they want that ex,you know, mirrored back to them
and it can be hard for them tofind that.
Yep.
It's a toll footnote.
One's, fours and sevens.
All the loneliest numbers.
And it's for this reason, it'sthat they're trying to pull
people into their thing, butwill commonly be frustrated

(01:22:01):
when, when others don't catchthe vision or can't come along
or can't see the frustration.
Try the depth better.
There it is.
Mm-hmm.
The frustration.
Try.
Yeah.
The, the low threshold, uh, forbeing misunderstood.
I think this is really importantand it, and it's related, so
that's why I wanted to kind ofjump into it.
Fours are to have thisincredible eye toward nuance.

(01:22:23):
They can understand, like evenif I am saying something and
they're like, oh, I think whatyou actually mean is, is this.
And they're like, oh yeah, that,that kind of describes it
better.
Um, so they can detect ways thattheir conversation partner is
not understanding them.
Um, and they tend to like goback and seek and clarify and
say, oh, it's actually this.
Um, and I've seen this come up acouple different ways.

(01:22:46):
So one is actually my assistant,my virtual assistant.
She's awesome.
Um, she's a four and she told meone time it's a lot more helpful
for people to say, um, what I'mhearing you say is blank.
Instead of saying, I understandbecause she can tell if they
don't understand.
Right.
Um, and so I thought that wasreally helpful because what I

(01:23:07):
hear a lot from four is whetherthat's working in corporate,
which to be honest, in corporateAmerica, there are not a lot of
fours, um, at least that willadmit it on the questionnaire.
Um mm-hmm.
But, you know, when I'm workingin corporate, or even if I post
something on Instagram, forestshave a nuance that they wanna
add, right?
Mm-hmm.
They have a way that they wantthings to be explained and

(01:23:29):
expressed.
Um, that is very specific.
And to be fair, differentforests have different points of
clarity, but I always inviteforests to say, Hey, like, you
know, how would you explainthis?
Um, because they typically dohave a way to kind of describe
it.
Um, and so they give a lot offeedback.
I'm like, well, that's not quiteit, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And.
I think that they have a, a realability to, you know, because

(01:23:51):
they've done so much innerexploration, they have an
ability to be able to say like,oh, this is what that feels like
or this is what that is.
Now are they always the mostaccurate self-assess?
Typically, no.
They typically assess themselvesway below where they actually
are.
Um, but they're pretty aware ofa lot of those things.
Yeah.

(01:24:11):
Bring forth the emotion and theenergy and the poetry in their
responses, I imagine.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
This, it, somebody one timecommented on an Instagram post,
it's so hard being this unique.
I was like, oh, bless yourlittle heart.
Bless your heart is right.
That's teach fours are, aresometimes the most likely to

(01:24:36):
sort of reject the system of theEnneagram, because how dare you
put 8 billion people into onlynine little boxes, and, and
there's, there's such a clearsense of wanting to be
understood, but not ever wantingto be exactly like anyone else.
Mm-hmm.
And like they, they hold thattension.

(01:24:58):
Like that's, that's why thesetwo things are, are, can be so
intertwined.
They live in that tension oflike being, having this high
threshold for emotionalexperience and, and expression
and also always feeling likethey're misunderstood and, and
the, um, like not wanting to beexactly like everyone else, not

(01:25:19):
wanting to be exactly like allthe other movie criers, you
know, and, and all of thatstuff.
And, and just, just holding thattension can also be one of those
things that sort of pulls them alittle bit further into
themselves and, and like, what'swrong with me that I can't fit
in with all of these otherpeople?
And it's like, well, for a lotof us it's because we're not

(01:25:39):
paying attention to ourselves.
But yeah, a couple years ago Idid this, um, workshop.
It was like several hundredrealtors and real estate agents
and only three people test setus for.
So with a crowd this, this size,I'm not meeting with them or
even Sure.
Having them take, you know, oneof the more accurate assessments
that tends to be a lot moreexpensive.

(01:26:00):
So, um, they just took anassessment and, and brought
their results.
And so there were only threepeople who identified as four
and they were all kind of in theback.
They're all kind of like moody.
They were cracking me up becausethey were like, just being like,
what is this?
I'm not like all these people.

(01:26:20):
And, um.
They ended up, you know,participating, but it was so
funny just to see them kind ofhave that like rejection and I'm
like, that's fine.
Yeah.
You know, that's all right.
When we'll notice how manypeople were at the conference.
Hundreds.
I think like in a room of 300people, the three fours were
able to command your attention.

(01:26:43):
This is actually what I'm seeingall over these lists where I, I
talked quite a bit about, youknow, the, the spatial component
to the body types.
Um, here it's all about beingseen.
And we saw it with the twos, wesaw it with threes and the fours
and the thresholds end upoutlining very well.
I thought that element of I'm, Iwant to be seen.

(01:27:04):
And so how's this gonna takeplace in here for the fours?
Yeah.
Um, you, you're, you're seeinghow that, that manifests.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Go ahead.
I was just gonna mention, I, um,did a conference recently and I
had panels.
Um, so one or two people whohave every type, they came up
and answered questions aboutcommunication, how they like to
communicate, et cetera.

(01:27:24):
And, um, I did them by theintelligence centers and you
could tell, like they all satdifferently.
Their answers were different,but like two threes and fours
were more similar than, youknow, threes were to fives or
threes were to eights, forexample.
Yep.
Yep.
When we, when we do livepresentations, we won't go over

(01:27:47):
50 or so folks, but we'll putpeople at tables and I.
The, the group think thatimmediately occurs is, is again,
when I'm sure it's this thingthat you've seen, you ask the,
the, the table of twos andsomebody kind of looks around
and says, well, we think, and itall, it's very collective.
Yeah.
And then you turn to the eight.

(01:28:08):
So what did you answer on numbertwo?
And they say, we didn't follow,we didn't answer any of your
stupid questions.
We did our own same.
Our list wasn't very good.
Yeah, yeah.
Et cetera.
Ba All right.
Fives.
Alright.
Uh, we high threshold for fiveslooks like what?
Um, so fives have a highthreshold for what qualifies as

(01:28:30):
competence or expertise.
And the way that I see this playout the most is fives cannot
stand when somebody says, I'm anexpert in X.
And they're like, but where areyour credentials?
No, you're not you.
Um, and I have talked to fivesbefore who, for example, um, a
five who's an entrepreneur whowanted to learn a little bit

(01:28:52):
more about how to writecontracts because they were
gonna have to send'em to theirclients and they ended up just
going back to law school.
Sure.
Yeah.
Um, because for fives, a lot ofthe time, learning about the
thing can be a good replacementfor doing the thing.
Mm-hmm.
And so fake it till you make itis not something that fives are,

(01:29:14):
are okay with.
Um, and they really, reallydon't like it when other people
do that too.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, the, uh, I, I bring up theexample of like the dance steps
a lot.
Like, like if, if fives aregonna learn how to dance,
they're, they're probably gonnado it in the safety of their own
home where they can study dance.

(01:29:34):
And that's actually going tothe, so they're learning to
ballroom dance, but now they'regoing to study the history of
dance and, and they're gonnalearn about modern dance.
And they're also gonna learnabout like, tribal dances from
ancient peoples and all of thesethings.
Because if you really want toknow how to dance, you have to
have the full knowledge andunderstanding of what all of

(01:29:55):
dance is.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And that like, the, the, thedeepening and widening of the
knowledge helps make someone anexpert.
And that's, that's like the, themore you learn that you don't
know, the farther away fromexpert fives may think they get,
like, not, not necessarilyconsciously, but like you step

(01:30:18):
into a field where you're like,okay, I can learn how to do this
thing.
And then you realize thatthere's actually a whole bunch
of stuff beneath that.
Now you wanna learn all of thoseother things so that you can be
good at the thing you weretrying in the first place.
Like there, there is a, an afullness of understanding that,
that they're seeking and, andthat that means they're looking

(01:30:41):
for expertise.
Yeah.
Cut.
Go ahead.
I think they just have to becognizant of when.
Looking for expertise is turninginto procrastination.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You know, um, I think for me assomebody who, you know, gives
coaching and instructions topeople, sometimes it actually
can be challenging for me tocome up with something for fives

(01:31:03):
because I really see thedownfall of not being that way.
Um, as a three, I'm like, Irespect these things, and I
actually do have that tendencyto be like, I'm not gonna do
anything unless I get a, acredential in it.
Um, but I, I kind of can see thedownfall of like, not being

(01:31:25):
somebody who really thoroughlythinks things through and, and
those sorts of things.
Um, so it's something I admire.
Yeah.
Credential means somethingdifferent to you than it does to
the five.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It, it's like letting you knowthat I can do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, on the, on the lowthreshold side, then, uh, what
do you see for fives?
So, the violation of privacy isa huge one, so.

(01:31:48):
Fives tend to have a lowthreshold, um, for what feels
like an infringement on theirprivacy.
So I, I often talk about howfives don't really like a lot of
personal questions, um, that canfeel really invasive.
And, um, I had a five respond onInstagram and she said, oh, I
don't mind personal questions.
Like, as long as it's not toopersonal, as long as you're not
asking me what book I'm reading.

(01:32:10):
And I was like, okay.
So we have different definitionsof what is personal uhhuh, um,
because either that or she'sreading some scandalous
material, and in which caseplease tell me, I want to know.
But, but really, like, I waslike, oh, that's so interesting
because that is like a generalsafe baseline question right

(01:32:34):
there though, when people ask mesometimes I'm like, Ooh, should
I talk about this book that I'mreading right now?
I don't know this person.
It might offend them.
Um, but yeah, that, thatpersonal kind of concept can be
really different for a five.
Mm-hmm.
And, and there within this ideaof like, again, we're, our

(01:32:56):
things are intertwined here.
The having such a high thresholdfor expertise, there is a sense
of like all, all of the stuffthat goes into expertise is not
necessarily.
Important if you can show thatyou have the expertise and

(01:33:18):
there's, there's a level of,like, like the story about the,
uh, was it Da Vinci who drew a,a perfect circle and, or, or the
bird, the, there's a, like a, aguy pays for a, a drawing of a
bird and, and the artist says,okay, come back in a year and
I'll have a drawing of a bird.

(01:33:38):
And, and the guy shows up andthe, there's no drawing
anywhere.
And the artist is like, oh yeah,I was supposed to do that.
So he sketches out a bird realquick and hands it over and it's
like, that'll be a thousanddollars.
And the, like, the thing thatyou don't see there is the
hundreds and hundreds ofdrawings of birds that the

(01:33:59):
artist did in that time to beable to do it really quickly.
Mm-hmm.
And so much of what fives areexperiencing in their inner life
is a, like, it is the sketches.
It's, it's the stuff that theydon't want people to, to see
because they, they want to beseen as competent expertise,

(01:34:23):
like all of that stuff.
And so when they do sharesomething, it's, it's not.
Gossip.
It's not stuff that they wantspread around.
They told you because they havea relationship with you and they
told you that one thing.
Mm-hmm.
And, and that like, when, whenwe start violating that for

(01:34:44):
fives, like we're nottrustworthy with their
possessions anymore.
Yeah.
'cause they didn't, they didn'treally give us permission to
share their life or Yeah.
All the things.
Yeah.
I have a, a five friend who toldme that he was starting a new
job and mm-hmm.
So the next time, you know, wehave this group of Enneagram

(01:35:06):
friends, next time we gottogether, I was like, oh, how's
the job?
You know?
And people are like, you got anew job?
And I was like, oh my God.
Like that is basic informationfor me.
For him.
He told me that, I mean, he, hewas fine, but, um, it, I was
like, Hey, I'm sorry I didn'trealize, you know, I wasn't
trying to like out you forgetting a new job or something.

(01:35:27):
Right, right.
So it's a, it's a differentthing and we have to kind of be
cognizant of that.
And they do compartmentalizethose things so that they don't
end up leaking out information.
Right.
Yeah.
And also notice that like withfives who have such a, like we
talk about the bucket, theenergy that, and like giving
anything to other people isenergy.
And if they shared like thatperson shared with you that they

(01:35:51):
got a new job and now they haveto expend energy on somebody
else that they weren't planningand that, like, that messes up
their whole day because now likethe end, the way that they
planned out their energy isbeing used differently Yeah.
Than they're prepared for.
And yeah.
The thing that hits me here isto go back to, uh, directions.

(01:36:15):
What we're gonna start to seewith five sixes and sevens is,
is the anticipation that's thereand the fear that they have and
where the direction of theirfears aimed in.
Again, in stuff's fantastic bookour diagrams outlining this, in
which the fear of fives is aboutthe things that are out there.
Mm-hmm.
And so what's gonna protect you?
Well, it's clearly gonna be theassets that have secured, it's

(01:36:35):
gonna be the things that I holdclosely.
Nothing can really be trusted,can it?
That's out.
There.
And if the information that Ihad prized so heavily gets out
there, that is my asset is gone.
Mm-hmm.
Knowledge is whew.
So if I hold these things closeto my vest, they always have a

(01:36:58):
safeguarding power.
Um, for, for anything, for, forthe things that, that may emerge
that, that, uh, that I may fear.
And I suppose that's why I seethere most in terms of privacy
pri it, it's almost, it's, itbecomes habitual.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Disclosing your book isn't thething.
It's that the habit has beeningrained in a person so

(01:37:20):
severely that, that, that, thatall things should probably be
kept under lock and key, don'tyou think?
Yeah.
And I think that's where, likefor fives, everything goes back
to Aris and stinginess.
Like I, it is true of othertypes, but especially for fives.
Those two things are like, sothe, the passion and the
fixation, everything falls underthose buckets.

(01:37:42):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Do you find, so when I bring upaice with fives, they don't like
it, uh, and sometimes don'tconnect with it.
Do have you found that or isthat just my presentation?
I think I have learned a lotfrom a few particular fives
who've explained theirexperiences of it, of it really

(01:38:03):
well.
And if I can explain it in thatway.
They're like, oh, yes.
Mm-hmm.
You know, but the, i, theconcept of greed, um,
particularly like financialgreed, while fives certainly
hoard financial resources ifthey have that bent, um, a lot
of the time fives really don'tlike that concept of avarice,

(01:38:24):
like that framing of it, right?
Because they're like, well,money is a social construct.
Like it is utterly meaningless.
Um, and so you kind of have tounderstand like a little bit or,
or try to get them to understandit from a different viewpoint.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You talk about fives andnihilism as well on that front.
What was, what was your thought,tj?

(01:38:46):
I mean, just the, the, the ideathat you would talk about greed
and a five would say, butmoney's just a social contract
construct.
It is hilarious that like a fivewould go so far into what money
is.
And like, we're trying to talkabout greed, which is way back
here.
Like that's, that's hilariousand accurate.

(01:39:08):
Mm-hmm.
And, and I also think that likewe have a cultural understanding
of what greed is.
So when you just use the wordgreed, people hear that.
They don't hear what we aretalking about when we talk about
fives and greed, which ishoarding.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The habitual side of, it's notjust about the monetary, but it
can be about one's emotionallife.
Mm-hmm.
One's self-disclosure, one's,anything, that book list.

(01:39:32):
Mm-hmm.
Anything that people are kind ofkeeping close to themselves as I
assume it's not just as part oftheir identity, but the, but
especially those things thatthey think may ensure their
security moving into the future.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I, um, I had itdescribed to me this way that,
so say you've got a whole circleand that represents all of the

(01:39:55):
fives, thoughts, feelings,energy, everything, all the
information they're learning, soit's growing.
Right.
Um, but if they share somethingwith somebody else, it's not
sharing in the sense of now weboth have it, it's cutting a
wedge out of this pie mm-hmm.
And handing that away, so now Ino longer have it.
Yeah.
And I think when we think of,you know, stinginess, so like

(01:40:17):
holding onto it and avarice likehoarding, um, through that lens,
then we can understand, oh,like, that's why the, the
privacy thing is so importantbecause they're giving a part of
themselves away every time theyallow somebody to see something
or to to know something.
Um, y'all know this, but maybethe fives listening, uh, we'll

(01:40:41):
see that differently.
No, I think it's, it can beincredibly helpful for those of
us who love fives to understand.
Another maybe angle on this isthat fives have.
Understand that they themselveshave limited resources, or at
least that's a belief that theyhave.
And part of those resources arethe energy they're putting out
out there.

(01:41:02):
And that's, I suppose what I, Iheard in your response is, is
that if we're gonna love fives,we just have to know they only
have so much.
Mm-hmm.
And we're, we're having to meet'em in that space.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Bang sixes.
So sixes have a high thresholdfor, um, what feels like
certainty.

(01:41:22):
Like certainty is elusive.
The closer they get, the furtheraway it feels.
And so they, they always think,okay, if I am really curious and
I look for more information, um,then I will feel more certain.
But what actually happens isthey keep scratching the surface
of all these different conceptsand topics, um, and they end up

(01:41:45):
feeling less certain, and thatis really destabilizing for
them.
Um, so they need more and moreand more certainty to feel
certain, but that threshold isso high for them that, that it's
really impossible to get there.
Yeah.
There's, uh, I think there's a,a good way like you.
You use the word readiness andI, I also think preparedness.

(01:42:07):
Like they, like my, my partneris a six and like they, there is
a sense of like needing to beprepared for the things that are
coming up.
Uh, or let me rephrase that,needing to feel prepared for
what might come up.
And that feeds a lot of theworst case scenario planning.

(01:42:28):
That, that feeds a lot of thelike, uh, anxiety about money.
Uh, our, our daughter is gonnastart school next year and what
does that look like?
And, and all of this stuff like,like needing to feel like she is
capable of moving into those newthings.

(01:42:49):
And there, there's so much ofour lives that there's just
literally no way to be prepared.
And, and the, the less preparedshe feels, the harder it is to
move, which like becomes lessprepared and like, becomes that

(01:43:09):
cycle.
And, and it, it is like aboutthis sense of like having that
high threshold of what it meansto be prepared.
What it means to be, to beready, what it means to be
certain, and that there's solittle that we can be certain
of.
Right.
And, and.

(01:43:30):
Sixes get to hold all of thattension because, you know, we,
we could also all be in asimulation and none of this is
real anyway.
And so those sorts of thoughtsfor sixes is gonna have'em
spinning out.
If you start putting that intotheir heads, you don't have to
worry about putting that intheir heads that is already
there.
That came preinstalled.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but like, I think what canbe so hard for sixes is being

(01:43:53):
married to somebody who does notthink about these things.
Right.
Or being in partnership withsomebody who doesn't think about
these things because they'relike, oh my God, I'm the only
one who is aware of this.
Right.
Yeah.
And that can be really hard.
Um, and it, it's, it's funny'cause I also, my partner's also
a six, so, um, yeah.

(01:44:15):
Like I talk in the beginning ofthe book about how I started
this flower business and, uh,did wedding florals.
And when I started it, myhusband was like, what makes you
think you can do that?
I was like,'cause I want to,because he's like, because I'm
amazing and I'm going to do itanyway.
Why would you ask a questionlike that?
Like, it never occurred to me tolike question if I could or not,

(01:44:38):
right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, and especially that was, youknow, my early twenties, so I
approached things a lotdifferently now.
I think I'd have some pausebefore I did something like
that, but, um, at the time, andI think that's a thing that
sixes are constantly asking,like mm-hmm.
What makes you think you can dothat?
Or why would I think this isgonna work out?

(01:44:58):
I need to make sure it's gonnawork out if I'm gonna try.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Direction's.
What hits me here again, and asyou say it, uh, I, I wanna push
back, are sixes the only oneswhoever radar for this?
'cause I bet you the fives andthe sevens do as well and their
di the direction of their energyis just going differently.

(01:45:19):
This is the doom loop for thesix is the six Doesn't trust the
stuff out there, but alsodoesn't trust the stuff within
to deal with the stuff outthere.
And that creates that, thatreally difficult spot that, that
like all types have places thatare very difficult to live.
And that's, I suppose what Ihear is the fact that the

(01:45:39):
direction is going, I doubt andthat doubt is going both
directions inwardly andoutwardly.
This is problematic and, andcreates that kind of energy.
It's also the case that sixesdon't have past tools to kind of
grab a hold of and say, yourealize that, that this has
worked just fine the last 28times this has happened.
What materializes, and I'm sureyou, you.

(01:46:01):
This is what's coming out interms of the high threshold
certainty can be really greatfor, for us on some fronts as
well, because there's such apush for, um, for assurance
here.
Mm-hmm.
You may not get toll assurance,but you, you probably have, you
know, minimized your odds of, ofthings going badly, you know?
Yeah.

(01:46:21):
As a three for sure.
Yeah.
Um, because are you overly, areyou risk, overly risk taking, do
you think?
Or why would you say that?
Um, I, I take risks.
I think.
I, I don't, but, but it's moreso because I don't allow a lot
of attention to the downsides.

(01:46:43):
Um, like I don't typicallythink, do I have capacity for
this?
That's a question six is alwaysask, do I have capacity for
this?
Um, like, I don't, I don't thinkthat, right.
Um, and I don't ask that likenaturally, right.
It's a, it's a skill that I haveto develop.
Right.
So I think that's one of theways that we can both, you know,

(01:47:07):
threes and sixes can help roundeach other out because threes
can see possibility that it willwork out.
Whereas sixes, you know, I wasactually describing.
Type six to a seven recently.
'cause a seven is like, I justsee the world as, uh, the glass
is half full.
And I said, no, no, no.
Six is, see the glass is halffull.
They just are also aware theglass could shatter at any

(01:47:29):
moment.
That's the difference.
Yeah.
Like, and whatever's in there,it could be poison.
It could be poison.
Who cares if it's half full?
What if it's half full of, ofsomething that's gonna kill us
all?
It's okay, you're in asimulation, it doesn't matter.
See?
Yeah.
And that's that, you know,mental modeling, that's that the
head types are always doing, youknow, their pattern, recognizing

(01:47:50):
their processing.
Um, so yeah.
But I think with that, becauseit's so hard to trust, the low
threshold then is betrayal.
Like sixes have a low thresholdfor what counts as suspicious.
And one of the things that canhappen for me as a three is if I
am doing my little shape shiftything, sixes, like I do not

(01:48:11):
trust that once they're in,they're loyal.
Right?
If, if they can find the core ofthe person, um, and they're very
committed, once that trust isbuilt, but the trust building is
slow.
Um, so an example of this, uh,when my husband and I met, we
were like kind of casuallydating, I guess, you know, for a
few months.

(01:48:31):
And then he, you know, I, Ididn't even know he liked me.
I wasn't really sure, uh, but.
We sat down, he's like, um, I, Iwould like to ask you to be my
girlfriend, but um, I wanna giveyou a month to think about it.
And I was like, buddy, I don'tneed to think about it.
I already know.
A month.
A month.

(01:48:52):
In case you need to get yourhead around that just in case.
Yeah.
Just in case I need a process.
I'll make sure you had space.
Yep.
Yeah.
If you need to break off anyother potential relationships
that you're in the, in theprocess of maybe loving you the
way that he wants to be loved.
And maybe if you were gonna askhim out, maybe he would want a
month to think about that.
He, I am confident he would.

(01:49:12):
Exactly.
Yeah.
He's gotta prepare.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
So betrayal comes up as a lowthreshold for two of the numbers
for you.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, it's both sixes and eights.
Yeah.
And worth, worth talking aboutthat, I think, in terms of the
difference here.
Um, mm-hmm.
Do you see a difference betweenhow the two types experience

(01:49:35):
betrayal?
I think for sixes there's a lotmore fear behind it.
Um, and a lot more like, oh no,that's unsteady, that's shaky,
that's insecure.
That, that doesn't feel good.
Um, I think for eights it's muchmore self-protective, which you
could argue is also from fear.
Um, but I don't think it'sreally experienced it as fear.

(01:49:58):
Um, in that same way.
They, they tend to just be like,Nope.
You know.
Well, and, and I, I think thistouches on like, like sixes and
eights both have a sense of thefuture.
Right.
But eights are always movingtoward it.
Like they, they, the, the energythat eights bring to the world

(01:50:20):
means that they are movingtoward the future they envision,
and when that betrayal comes inthe future that they are
protecting themselves against isbeing betrayed again.
Mm-hmm.
And the so, so that, that focusis a lot easier.
Just the same as eights don'tunderstand that the rest of us

(01:50:40):
don't have that energy.
Like, eights are like, oh yeah,why would I let that person back
in?
Who betrayed?
Like, that's just, that'sstupid.
Like, it's, it's a bad way tolive to set yourself up for
vulnerabilities like that.
So betrayal means you're cutoff.
Yeah.
And sixes experience betrayaland now they are on unsteady

(01:51:00):
ground.
Right.
And they might not cut theperson off.
Right.
Right.
And, and like that it unm moresthem a little bit to where, to
where they, they don't know whatto trust anymore and enter into
that cycle again.
Yeah.
So the future that they'relooking out for is, is not
necessarily to not be hit again,it's, it's because they need

(01:51:25):
certainty.
They, and when they experiencebetrayal, it un unset their,
their foundation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that for sixes italso makes'em question
themselves like mm-hmm.
How could I have trusted thatperson?
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
What's wrong with my judgmentthat I allowed this to happen in

(01:51:46):
the first place, but I will sayabout sixes that I think is
often missed is they doexperience fear, but almost
everything they do is in serviceof mitigating fear.
Mm-hmm.
They don't want to feel fear.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think a lot of the timesixes who are men in particular
are mistyped because they covertheir fear with something else.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Whether that's, you know,adhering to a certain moral

(01:52:09):
authority or, you know, angeror, or something like that.
They, they have this other thingthat takes the place of fear
because fear is reallyvulnerable.
Mm-hmm.
I think especially for sixes,uh, this is, I'm, I'm shooting
from the hip here, have apreference for living in their
stress number in, in theirsecurity number more than other

(01:52:30):
types of may.
A lot of males specifically willproject an image who are sixes
in our culture that, that thatstrength and can over the top,
can go over the top.
Mm-hmm.
But also a lot of, a lot ofsixes.
Seemed to me to, to really havethat preference for nine space
in trying to manufacture that ifpossible.

(01:52:52):
Yeah.
Because of that, because the,the anxiety can be
uncomfortable, I assume.
Yeah.
What is the, so we had mentionedthis with both biotypes and
heart types, but like the, um,the virtue or that, that place
of, of relief for yourunderlying motive, was it, what
is that verse six?
Um, um, so the virtuous courage.

(01:53:14):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
There's a, there's a place whereI, I would love to talk about
this for two seconds.
The, what does it look like forboth of you, for your spouses to
trust their thinking and to say,I'm going to, that's where it
is.
It's the courage is I'm going tomm-hmm.
Trust my thinking.
Yeah.
It's, it's a deci courage is, isa decision being made there,

(01:53:36):
right?
Yeah.
Anyway, um, I think for, for myhusband, so he's really
knowledgeable in his specificcareer field.
Um, and when he's havingconversations about those things
or those topics, he has thisdegree of certainty that well.
He doesn't always even convey inthose meetings, but when he

(01:53:59):
talks to me about, you know, histhinking or his processing or,
or why something will work orwhy it won't work, he's really
confident in that.
Um, and I think because it's hiscareer, he has a track record.
Remember earlier we were talkingabout sixes don't have that
backlog of all the times thatthey've seen things go well, but

(01:54:19):
because it's so tangible for himto be able to see that he can
look at data, he can look athard facts.
Mm-hmm.
Then he's like, oh yeah, youknow, I've got the confidence.
I know what I'm talking about.
I know what I'm doing.
Remember when I said this lasttime and you didn't listen and
it all went terribly?
Like, let's pay attention tothat.
So I feel like when he can pullin those pieces of like, yes, I

(01:54:45):
remember times when this wentwell, um, then he can really
convey a lot of that confidenceand the courage to say, I'm
gonna venture out here.
I'm gonna reach out, you know,cross-functionally and, and go
work on this relationship and,and work on that project.
Um, and that's a big thing forhim.
So I think that's one of theways I see it.

(01:55:07):
You're gonna have to remind mewhat the question was, just is
anything to be said about your,uh, spouse choosing, choosing
to, to trust their thinking?
Yeah, I think that, uh, seeing,I know with, with my partner,
uh, like there's so much, I,this is a hard time because
teaching is really hard rightnow, and we have a 4-year-old

(01:55:29):
and like there, there's, there'sjust, there's a lot going on in
the world.
But, uh, I, I think there is,um, there is something to be
said for making a decision andjust doing it anyway that, that
often sort of propels her in adirection.

(01:55:51):
Uh, and, and there it's so easyto, to, to sort of get stuck in
like, well, these, here's thelist of things that I want, that
I think I should be doing.
And much like a, uh, much likethrees, like 13 of those things

(01:56:12):
are probably undoable if you dothe other two.
And there's, there's a sort ofa, a place where once a decision
is made and you start to moveforward, then a lot of the other
mental stuff sort of falls awaywith those things.
So like, thinking about mypartner and courage, it's not,

(01:56:34):
uh, necessarily about like doingthings that are really brave.
Oftentimes courage for her isjust picking something that
she's not sure of and justmoving.
Mm-hmm.
Just like picking something anddoing it.
Is that, is that the recklessexpression of that or does that
strike you as courageous?

(01:56:54):
It usually strikes me ascourageous.
There there are, there is verylittle exp yeah.
Bang.
Good answer.
Alright, lastly, sevens.
So high threshold, uh, ispossibility.
So sevens tend to have a highthreshold for what feels
possible, um, in the sense thatthey have these big outlandish
ideas and they chase after themand they don't think about,

(01:57:18):
like, this might not work.
And so they're, all of theirenergy is in how do I make this
work?
How do I make this happen?
That's where they concentrate.
And so that actually is one ofthe reasons things work out for
sevens is because they believeit's possible and they don't
spend time thinking that it'snot possible.
Um mm-hmm.
So I think that, you know, thatcan be awesome.

(01:57:40):
I've also seen it where it canbe really bad.
Um, in particular I saw a sevenleader who would be like, who
didn't wanna accept that certainthings weren't possible so that
she would constantly rescopeprojects.
So then all of her people endedup having the same number of
projects, but just on a smallerscale and that didn't actually
alleviate any of the workload.

(01:58:01):
Um, and so I think sometimesthat can, that could be a
challenge, but they just thinkalmost anything is possible.
Mm-hmm.
I think it, it, part of thechallenge also comes in not.
Not finishing things that aren'tthe way that you envisioned them
anymore.

(01:58:21):
Like, they like the fours, onesand sevens, all these idealists
and like fours do this a lot inrelationships.
Like sevens have a hard timecompleting projects when the
project isn't fun anymore.
Right.
And that there's so much otherstuff like that, that is a very
simple way to say a, a verybroad concept.

(01:58:43):
Like once they are notexperiencing the, the joy, the
excitement, the like, whateverthey thought was possible in
this activity, then they'reready to move on.
And sometimes that means theydon't stick with things that
they should have stuck with.
The thing that hits me again is,uh, direction comes up for me

(01:59:04):
and connecting with other peoplethe direction is, is, is
interesting with sevens.
'cause what sevens are fleeingisn't a, uh, craziness that's
out there.
They're, they're jumping intothe craziness that's out there.
Mm-hmm.
They are avoiding some darkstuff that's probably un in, in
their, in their heart and theirsoul and their emotional life.
Mm-hmm.
That just, we don't need to dealwith that just, just yet.

(01:59:27):
Don't you just think we couldhave a more enjoyable time
tonight doing something else?
And so that direction, the, thefear is.
In something inside them,they're moving outward.
Mm-hmm.
And inviting others to comealong.
There's possibilities here.
And I, I suppose in connectingwith someones, I routinely see
something like that is the, theinvitation to get excited about
the thing that they're excitedabout at this moment in time.

(01:59:49):
And to ca capture yourimagination with the thing is
what I heard in your, in youranswer.
Yeah.
There, Steph.
And, and that's really one ofthe low thresholds.
So sevens have a low thresholdfor what feels worth
celebrating.
And even small things can belike, oh, let's celebrate that.
You know?
Yeah.
Um, I had a seven coachingclient for a long time who would

(02:00:09):
be like, oh, we have tocelebrate.
We have to celebrate.
We have to celebrate all thetime.
Um, and they make a habit ofcelebrating their friends too.
Um, mm-hmm.
Sevens don't always necessarilycelebrate themselves.
I'm thinking now, um, I knowsome seven too really don't
necessarily do that, especiallythe social sevens.
I, but they, they tend to notneed a lot to be pushed to be

(02:00:32):
like, let's be happy, let's becheerful.
And, um, all that stuff.
And again, I think it's thatfleeing that inner anxiety that
can really be under the surface.
I think a lot of the time whensevens start to do a little bit
more inner work, they start tofind a lot of fear that they
didn't realize was there.
Um, and that can be reallychallenging.

(02:00:53):
Sorry, I think that real quick,the low.
Threshold for celebration isthat they don't need much.
Yeah.
In order to pivot intocelebration Uhhuh, it's a what?
Okay, perfect.
Sorry, go ahead.
Teach.
I also think that, that there'ssomething that's to be said
about the reframing that canhappen there, because I, I, uh,

(02:01:15):
have to say this delicately.
I know someone who, instead ofignoring their faults, choose to
celebrate them to the degreethat it, if they didn't, if, if

(02:01:36):
they would ignore them, thennobody would pay attention to
it.
But their insistence oncelebrating it, which is their
way of reframing it, means thatwe're often talking about it and
like now we're sort of, the restof us are being held hostage to

(02:01:56):
this person's need to reframethe thing that they don't like
into something that they cancelebrate.
Mm-hmm.
And like even that, like thethreshold there is really low.
Yeah.
And, and they have moresensitivity than they let on,
right?
Like mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I, I used to use a few TVexamples for some of these, and

(02:02:16):
I've kind of stopped doing that,um, for some of the seven
things, because I think sevensare really sensitive to always
being labeled as the ditzy oneon whatever TV show, because
sevens are cerebral, right?
They're, they're mentalmodelers, they're, they're head
types.
They, they're strategicthinkers.
Um, but they don't always letpeople see that.
And so they end up gettingreally sensitive about, um, some

(02:02:40):
of these other things that theydon't always show.
Um mm-hmm.
And I think, you know, their ownflaws can, can be one of those
things.
But I heard there was both amixture of avoidance and that's
what the stress move can looklike for the seven.
They're actually moving intoself-critical space.
Mm-hmm.
But they're, they're also tryingto reframe, and that's, that

(02:03:01):
mixture is all coming together.
I'm gonna tell a great storythat's avoiding the, the issue.
I'm trying to do some repair inthe moment.
Mm-hmm.
And hey, look, a bird, let's beyoung.
But it's funny, like sixes andsevens I think are interesting
'cause they can also, likeeights, they can get into a big
like mental debate and like, areyou about stuff?

(02:03:22):
And they're not feelingemotional, but it feels tense to
other people in the room.
Um, yeah, true.
But sixes and sevens can do thattoo.
This guy.
Yep.
What is that?
Uh, I'd love to put my thumb onthat for a second.
Is that.
The feeling repression?
Is that something else?
Um, I think it's, it's meetingeach other in that mental space
where Okay, it's, it's conceptsand they're much more

(02:03:44):
comfortable in dealing inabstracts, like abstract
concepts.
Yeah.
Um, and part of the reframing isthat they are in consciously or
not, they are intentionallybehaving in a way that, that
leads them to believe thatthey're not connected to the

(02:04:05):
outcome.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Yeah.
And, um, what sixes and sevenshave in common is that they both
see all the possibilities, butthey only see one side of the
spectrum.
Right.
So they can have arguments anddebates about possibilities.
Like, one time I heard a debateabout, um, if there were more
like cellists or tromboneplayers in the United States,

(02:04:28):
not looking at data, not goingand, and Googling and just
having like a conceptual debateabout this.
And I was like, oh, please, whohas time for this conversation?
That's great.
Yeah.
It's trombones.
It's gotta be, they're, they'recheaper and easier to carry.
I, that's what went through mymind.

(02:04:49):
It's an Armour cap.
That's a hilarious debate.
Hey, we went around the circle.
Did it?
We did it.
I'm gonna celebrate that.
Yeah.
Rightly so.
See, we actually did some realwork though.
You know, what is actual workthough?
Okay.
So behind peeking, behind thecurtain of Enneagram world, dear
listener, you got this far.

(02:05:09):
You wanna hear what's actuallybehind the curtain of Enneagram
world.
There are two types of Enneagramthinkers.
There are those who have a bunchof friends and they write a book
about each of the types, butreally they're just talking
about Joe the four and Ed thefive.
And then there's people thatactually put in the work and do

(02:05:30):
an extraordinary job of puttingtogether about a thousand
details on each type that areaccurate, informed, elevate the
conversation.
And Steph's book is that, andher book will actually stand the
test of, of time here for thenext, you know, decade or two
or, or hopefully beyond, where alot, a lot of the stuff that's

(02:05:52):
just flooded the market isnobody will remember in the next
couple, couple years if, if atall.
And so truly something to haveon the shelf.
Um, and it's, it's really been,I, I was so glad that we could
start the year, uh, with, with,with, with your study.
Very worthy.
Yeah.
Thanks so much for having me.
This has been fun.
And I'll just, you know, keepy'all around so you can keep

(02:06:14):
complimenting me.
I really like that.
Perfect.
Uh, I also, uh, we spoke I thinkvery little, probably too little
about how much.
Next steps there are in thisbook.
Oh, I like, they, we, we covered5% of this book, if you guys
thought that we did in-depthstudy.

(02:06:35):
No, we, we hit one topic of Yep.
Yep.
Go ahead.
Mm-hmm.
But you should say it and, andyeah, like, I, I thought it was
hilarious that the three wrotethe book that has, what do you
do next?
And like, how, how do you checkmark these things?
Uh, but also like the,practically speaking, so much of

(02:06:56):
the material that is availableto us in the Enneagram world is
theory.
So much of it is learning theideas and the concepts, and a
lot of the work that needs to bedone is something that you ha
kind of have to work out on yourown.
And this is one of those placeswhere like, I, I am really

(02:07:17):
excited to be able to pointpeople to this book.
Like my three friends.
Like I, I love the theory andI'm all about that, so I'm good
in the theory, but I know somany people who are like, I
don't care about the theory.
I want to know what to do withit.
And so I think that that is areally, um, like this is a

(02:07:39):
tremendous contribution to thefield and I'm really excited to
be able to hand it to Thanks.
Yeah.
My, um, publisher really, reallypushed for.
The practical application, eventhough as you know, almost would
say threes need to stop being sopractical.
Uh, but sometimes the worldneeds types to be their best

(02:08:00):
selves and give the gift mm-hmm.
That they're really, reallyskilled at giving.
Yeah.
Friends, it mean the world tous.
If you would share this episodewith somebody that you love,
preferably somebody who is alittle bit more informed, who is
looking for a great book to getinto this new year, um, this is
a great thing to shoot theirway.
Um, because Steph's book isfantastic, uh, place to, uh, for

(02:08:24):
a lot of us we're getting ourrhythms of the new year and, uh,
need some, need some goodmaterial to jump into to do some
work on ourselves.
So, um, friend says January28th, uh, January 28th.
Yep.
Okay.
By May let's, if, if you'rehearing this before January
28th, 25, then it's not outthere.
You can pre-order, which is abig deal actually.

(02:08:47):
Yeah.
So help sister out.
Speaking of helping people out,we have fantastic stuff on the
Patreon.
If you go to around thecircle.org, you can check out
our movie type of podcast.
So that's what I got.
You got anything else, tj?
I got nothing.
She is Steph Baron Hall.
She has been a treasure and adelight to have and we're very
much looking forward toconnecting with you again in the

(02:09:07):
future.
And he's TJ Wilson.
He's officially awesome.
I'm Jeff Cook, who you aren'tjust isn't interesting.
Thanks again for listening tothis super extended episode of
Enneagram in Real Life,Enneagram in Real Life.
The podcast is a production ofnine types Co LLC editing

(02:09:27):
support from Heidi ese crits atCrits collaborations, and our
intro music is from Dr.
Dream Chip.
Thanks again to the guys atAround the Circle Podcast for
allowing me to share thisunabridged episode, and I hope
to find you here again verysoon.

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