How to Choose a Career that Actually Suits You with Betsy Wills (3) & Alex Ellison (7)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Welcome to Enneagram in reallife.
The podcast where we explore howto apply our Enneagram knowledge
in our daily lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie Barronhall.
And on today's episode, I'mtalking all about careers and
more specifically aptitudetesting.
So this was a really funepisode, both to record and to
prep for, because I actually gotto do all of the aptitude tests

(00:27):
that, our guests today talkabout, before I actually
interviewed them.
So, if you're listening on yourpodcast app, this is a great
one.
If you want to see the dashboardportion.
Of the episode, you can watch iton YouTube.
I'll put the link in the shownotes.
Because we kind of took a tourof the backside of the
dashboard.
So you're seeing all of thedifferent things that I'm really

(00:49):
good at, or the things I'mreally bad at.
and we talk about the differenttypes of careers that I was
interested in and then thedifferent careers that my
aptitudes.
Suggested for me.
So that was a really fascinatingaspect of this episode.
But one of the things I lovedabout this conversation was so
many people always ask me, Youknow, what's the best.

(01:09):
Career for your Enneagram type.
And I always kind of say, Imean, your Enneagram type can
tell you some information, butit doesn't really tell you what
type of career you'd be good at.
So instead of looking to yourEnneagram type, I think this is
a better way to find and createa career that is really.
A great fit for you.
So on today's episode, I'minterviewing betsy wills and

(01:32):
Alex Ellison, co authors of yourhidden genius.
Which is a brand new book that'sout today.
So go and get it because youalso, when you purchase the
book, you get all of theaptitude testing for free
included in the book purchase.
And in this conversation, we'rereally focusing on.
The role of aptitude testing andcareer exploration and personal
growth.

(01:53):
Betsy and Alex both shareinsights into how understanding
aptitudes can guide us to findcareer satisfaction.
Overcome burnout and navigateworkplace dynamics.
So Betsy and Alex will explainsome of the science behind
aptitudes, the practical toolsavailable in their book and how
these assessments complimentpersonality frameworks, like the
Enneagram.

(02:14):
So we wanted to highlightactionable steps to foster
career wellness and equity inprofessional settings.
Betsy Wells' co-founder of youscience and a pioneer and
aptitude awareness and expertcareer coach Alex Ellison.
He joined forces to write anessential life and career guide
called your hidden genius.
The science backed strategies touncovering and harnessing
urinate talents.

(02:34):
Their research provides acustom-made roadmap to what
makes you special revealing yourdistinct combination of natural
talents, interests andpersonality traits, connect with
Betsy and Alex on their website,your hidden genius.com and make
sure you grab their book, um,which is also called your hidden
genius.
I will link it in the show notesbecause I just want to make sure
you get the right one.

(02:54):
There are a few that havesimilar titles.
And we're going to talk aboutsome tools for assault
discovery, um, what to do ifyour aptitudes aren't really.
A good fit for your career rightnow, but how you can kind of
pivot without changing your jobentirely.
Um, and some other aspects ofthis, I have told so many people
about the whole process ofaptitude testing, because I

(03:16):
really loved what it showed me.
And it kind of enlightened me ina, in a different way about my
own set of skills and what Ibring to the table.
And it showed me how my own lifeand career path and trajectory
has been impacted by some of theinherent bias that we're all
taught.
And so, especially.
Certain groups of people likewomen for example, are often
told, oh, you're bad at math.

(03:37):
Or a women aren't as good atmath.
And so, We found that I actuallyhave an aptitude for stem fields
in general.
So that was a really interestingthing to discover and to talk
about with these two expertsthat I have on today.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Betsy wills
and Alex Ellison.

Stephanie Barron Hall (03:54):
Well, Alex and Betsy, welcome to the
podcast.

Betsy Wills (03:57):
Thank

Alex Ellison (03:58):
for having us, Stephanie.

I'm so excited to chat with you today
because I get this question allthe time.
What job, what career should Ido for my Enneagram type?
And the answer I like to give isLike anything, right?
It's not really related.
Um, I think there are certainthings that we can know about
ourselves and ways that we canunderstand environments in which

(04:22):
we might thrive based on ourtype, but it doesn't actually
tell us the stuff that we needto know when we're choosing
that.
So I'm excited to chat with youtwo today about your new book,
Your Hidden Genius.
Um, and we're going to betalking about aptitude tests and
all these sorts of things, whichwe will define.
But before we get into that, I'dlove to hear a little bit about
each of your backgrounds and howyou ended up where you are now.

(04:44):
So let's start with Betsy.

Okay.
Well, thank you.
Well, I'm First and foremost, amother of two adult Children.
But, uh, my career startedbasically in fundraising for
Vanderbilt University.
And then I had a hiatus, whichwas very fortunate.
I was able to stay home with myChildren for maybe eight years,
and I did every kind ofvolunteer job there was to do.

(05:06):
Really enjoyed it.
But at one point I woke up and Irealized I'm gonna be 100.
My We had literally four greatgrandmothers at the time, and
all of them were 90 to 100 yearsold.
And so I was like, well, mybiology says I better get with
it.
I was only 32.
So I, uh, Actually, the wholegenesis of this is I went to
Johnson O'Connor that doesaptitude testing and I spent two

(05:31):
days and about a thousanddollars getting myself tested
like a lab rat, literally, onevery aspect of every aptitude.
But it really changed my life.
In so many ways, ended up goingback to graduate school at
Vanderbilt and getting amaster's in human resource
development, and then wound myway into investor relations for,

(05:52):
uh, financial companies.
And I've really been doing thatever since.
I still do.
Um, I've worked in marketing andbranding, but along the way I
was with a very visionary personand we were wrestling with,
with, uh, You know, how to helpstudents, um, make better
decisions and I suggested thisaptitude test, but it was really

(06:12):
unaffordable.
And so, um, long story short,um, we ended up bringing that
assessment into an onlineenvironment and now it's in 25
percent of all U.
S.
high schools and about 600universities.
And the book, which Alex and Iwill talk a lot about, is really
for more adults to have accessto this assessment.

(06:34):
So it's included in the book,and that's how we got here
today.

Great.
I, that's so interesting thatyou're kind of your own
experience with wanting toexperiment with what's next for
me, you know, coming back intothe workforce after having
kiddos.
Um, and then you're like, wow,this is really cool.
So I love that you brought thatexperience into it.

Thank you.
It's been a journey.

I'm sure.
So Alex, I've, I've heard thatyou talk a little bit more about
career wellness.
So tell me a little bit moreabout that and your experience.

Yeah.
Thank you.
Stephanie.
So, I, um, have been running uh,an education and career
counseling practice since 2013.
And from the very beginning, Iknew I needed something
objective to kick off thecounseling process with my
clients.
You know, I saw a lot of peoplecoming in saying things like,
you know, my parents said Ishould consider this, or my

(07:26):
colleagues that I shouldconsider this, or my teachers
told me this, you know, that Ishould consider this path and
there was no real objective toolto, to, to sort of jumpstart the
guidance.
And so I searched high and lowfor an assessment that I wanted
to use in my practice and Ilanded on you science and.
I was just like, this is, thisis exactly this, this covers the

(07:48):
three legs to the stool andwe'll talk more about this, but
it wasn't just an interestsurvey.
It wasn't, um, only apersonality assessment, although
there's that's included.
It also brought in this thirdreally important link to the
stool, which is aptitudes.
Um, and so, and I've always beena fan of Enneagram and Myers
Briggs.
I love anything that will helpme get clearer about who I am
and what I can do in the world.

(08:10):
Um, and so I think all of thetools are really like these
layers, right?
So they all work together.
Um, and so.
So that's how I started usingit.
And so I've since then given youscience to hundreds of clients.
Um, and I'm an Enneagram seven.
And so during COVID, I wasfeeling incredibly restless,
like a lot of Enneagram sevens,I think we're feeling.

(08:31):
And Betsy and I had beenconnecting back and forth over
the years.
And I just was like, I'm feelingso restless.
Like what can we do?
You know, and she'd been workingon a book idea and we started
collaborating on it in 2020.
And so this is a really excitingadventure and journey.
It's been an exciting adventureand journey, um, for, for both
of us, but definitely for me.

(08:52):
And, um, so that's, that's how Ikind of came into this.
And, um, and why I'm so excitedabout this work.

Yeah.
I love that you're alsobringing, you know, your
experiences and thatrestlessness, right?
Sometimes that inspires us to dosomething because we can't
handle it anymore.
Um, and I'm, I'm sure that alsodepends on a lot of other
factors, personality and otherthings we'll discuss today, but
we've been throwing around thisword aptitude.
So what exactly is aptitude?
Does that mean and what exactlyare we assessing with with these

(09:23):
assessments?

Well, so aptitudes are, again, another layer.
But it's, they're quitedifferent than your strengths.
They're quite different thanyour interests.
They're definitely differentthan your personality.
Think of them as your hardwiring.
the innate abilities that you'reborn with.
I always describe them as theseeds of your skills, not the

(09:46):
skills themselves.
So we're all born with, youknow, Different varieties are
different pack of seeds, if youwill, and it's what you when you
add nurturing of learning andpractice to something, the
things that are your, youraptitudes that are kind of your
driving aptitudes are going toget stronger and stronger,
faster and faster.
So it's kind of think about itis your learning rate.

(10:08):
So some examples of aptitudeswould be a spatial ability, for
instance.
Um, some people just, you know,Think in 3D.
Other people don't.
That's perfectly fine.
They're neither good or bad, butthey are really helpful when
you're trying to pick directionwith a career to know whether
you're driven that way oranother.

(10:28):
Um, but there's actually over 52aptitudes that can be assessed,
and most people just don'trealize this.
So, different than IQ, which is,um, a combination of cognitive
abilities, Um, aptitudes includethose, but they also include
things like physical abilities.
Um, some people are really goodat working with, you know, small

(10:49):
tools, other people with theirfingers.
Um, some people can recognizeall the different shades of
cream, like cloud white or snowwhite.
They can see all thosedifferences in white.
It's just an aptitude.
That's called huediscrimination.
Another one that's not thatimportant, but is an aptitude,
is glare factor.

(11:09):
Certain people are superbothered by glare, other people
not so much.
This matters if you're going tobe a truck driver or, uh, fly an
airplane.
But it doesn't apply to most,um, jobs.
So it's not one that we actuallyassess.
There are musical aptitudes.
There's three separate musicalaptitudes.
Um, some people have great tonalmemory, rhythm memory.

(11:31):
And pitch discrimination.
All three, though, would benecessary if you really want to
pursue a career in music.
So, uh, aptitudes are just likethis whole range of things that
school doesn't really, um,appreciate all that much and may
ignore.
And it's, it's been a bigproblem for a lot of people
because some of them, we getmeasured on a very narrow range

(11:54):
of aptitudes.
And some of us are given themessage early on that, you know,
You know, we don't have thingsthat are valuable, but the
opposite is true.
So that's the wonder and thebeauty of bringing these things
out in people.

Yeah, that's so interesting that there
are Like these set aptitudesbecause that was one of the
questions that I had as I wasdoing the assessment was
thinking How did you choose?
which ones to test and thenwhich ones to write about so I
Understand this is acollaboration with you science
in a sense, but tell me a littlebit more about you know You

(12:29):
Which one came first?
Like, did you decide which onesto choose or how did that work?

well, so Q science is the company I co founded in
2010.
So that's how we have access togive the reader a free code to
take the assessment.
Um, but when you sciencestarted, We, um, looked at all
of the different 52 aptitudesand we actually worked with the
U.
S.
government who keeps a databaseof every job that's ever been

(12:58):
and every aptitude that attachesto each job.
So think of it like this RosettaStone of information.
And it's been sitting there,useless to people because if you
don't know what their aptitudesare, you really can't work that
matching, um, So that's what youscience has really done is we've
taken the assessment and then wetake the results and then we've

(13:21):
mapped them to all thesedifferent So what we did when we
were selecting which ones toassess is we tried to think of,
okay, this test could take threedays if we tested everybody's
aptitude in every little way,but we chose really the 14 major
ones that will help the mostpeople make those decisions.

(13:44):
But I will say that after youtake the youth science
assessment, if you're curiousabout your musical aptitude or
your hue discrimination, Thereare places and ways you can get
those assessed, and we includesort of information about those
in the book.

Yeah.
Okay.
That's so fascinating.
So, um, it's not just about whatyou might be good at, but also
how does this concept of careerwellness kind of weave into the
aptitude assessment?

we, we felt like, you know, originally we, we sort
of saw this as, um, a throughline and we still do.
I mean, so we, we see this aslike, you know, something like a
golden thread that you can clingto and return to throughout your
life.
So, because aptitudes arestable, starting at about the
age of 17, um, you can.

(14:34):
Assess them, harness them, andthen remind yourself about them
throughout your career.
So rather than seeing careernavigation as like a one and
done thing that you do in yourearly twenties, that's just not
the reality anymore.
The world is changing so fast.
Technology is evolving soquickly and also just our lives
are not, are not fixed.
We might move, we might getmarried, we might have children.

(14:55):
And so we're always going to beat these like inflection points.
And so we, we wanted tohighlight in this, in this book.
People who've been at thosepivot points and how they can
use a better compass to reevaluate their careers time and
time again, rather than justshooting in the dark.
Every time you have to make anadjustment or make a shift, you

(15:16):
can return back to youraptitudes as this compass and
use those to make smarterdecisions.
Um, and so, yeah, and, and tojust like we care about our, our
mental health and our physicalhealth, uh, we, I think we
should equally care about yourcareer health.
So that's where that term comesfrom.

Well, we spend so much of our lives at
work, so we might as well makeit something that we're going to
enjoy.

Yeah, and right, right or wrong, there's been a
lot of debate about this, but,you know, we do go, we, we turn
to our jobs for a lot of ourpersonal fulfillment and, um,
and, and so that's why this issuch an important, uh, time to
be having this conversation

Yeah, and not only that, what is, uh, an added
aspect in the book is thataptitudes also relate a great
deal to your avocations.
And most people get into acareer or job, and they may at
any time sort of feel thisnagging sense of maybe this
isn't the right thing for me, ormaybe I should quit.

(16:16):
It's, but.
And so they put their job on thewitness stand.
You're the problem, you know,and we're like, please don't do
that.
First, let's consider because.
A lot of our sense of, uh,boredom, restlessness or
exhaustion is due to an unmetaptitude or an aptitude that's
being overtaxed.
And so just like your health andcareer wellness is about

(16:39):
understanding that balance andwhere you can give outlets to
these aptitudes that may or maynot be met at work and may or
may not ever be met at work.
And that's perfectly okay.
It's our full life that matters.

And you also talk about in the book
about how these bleed over intoour personal relationships.
And Betsy, you shared a funnystory about, um, a date planning
situation.

Oh, yeah.

Do you want to share a bit about that?

Well, My husband and I have a different, uh, Set
of aptitudes.
Uh, we compliment each other inmany ways.
And one of his aptitudes is he'sextremely focused on his
calendar.
He uses that calendar, drivesthat calendar.
I mean, if I called him on theway home and said, I'm going to
stop by Whole Foods, he's goingto send me a calendar invite for

(17:30):
that.
Within an hour.
Like, I mean, he's tracking me.
No, but, uh, so what happenedwas I'm not so good at that and
I need to be using a calendar aa lot more.
But, uh, he sent me a calendarinvite for some date.
You know, we were gonna havepeople for dinner and then the
date changed somehow and Ididn't put it on the calendar.
And so we made an entire mealand we're sitting there.

(17:53):
Having a glass of wine waitingfor the guests to come and an
hour went by and it turned outthat I should have been using
the calendar, so

That's the wrong date.

Total wrong date, so we we had a rehearsal for our
dinner party

Yes, I, I think that's so funny because
it's just comical how some ofour different ways of being in
the world show up in thoserelationships and they can be
really humorous.
Um, in that same chapter, Iactually highlighted because I
was like, I'm going to send thisto my husband, be like, see,
look where it says, um, that.
Sequential thinkers normallyhave like a messy desk, but

(18:28):
everything they need is in theirmental filing cabinet.
So they've got, you know, theirsticky notes, they know where
they are and everything likethat.

That's right.
Yeah, it's funny

was like, I, I have proof that I'm just,
I'm just

Well, I can I can tell you, since we're talking
about personal relationships,another kind of funny story.
Um, my husband also has perfectpitch, pitch discrimination.
And most people, like I said,think of pitch as musical.
And he doesn't have perfectrhythm or tone.
He just has perfect pitch.
And pitch relates to yourability to see really fine

(19:03):
differences in things.
So, um, You know, this doesn'ttaste right, that's crooked,
that, that sound is off, ofcourse, this itches.
There are people who, they justreally focus in on what's off,
because that's all they see.
And, I am a 98 percenter.
So, at night, you know, I'll, myhouse is spotless, it really is,

(19:25):
but at night I'll leave thatglass of wine that I'm finished
with beside the sink and think,I'll get that in the morning.
And he would come in, and hewould just go.
Why is the house so dirty?
Staring at the glass of wine andI'd be like, Oh my gosh, I just
want to strangle you, you know,on so many arguments because I
always felt like he was pickingon me for that one thing.

(19:45):
I could never do enough.
But when we found this out abouthim, It made total sense.
And fortunately, he's in a jobthat takes full advantage of
that.
He's a high end restorationcontractor and man, can he do a
punch list?
I'm telling you, he's excellentat that.
And so it really changed ourconversation with one another
about, you know, you weren'treally picking on me.

(20:08):
You were just letting youraptitude go wild.
Uh, you do need to manage that,but it was super helpful because
we just aren't, we talk about itin a different way.
All

it, which is so useful.

and you start to see these opposing factors as
assets rather than deficits,which is what I love about this
as well.
It's all about, like, is it inthe right context or what
context is it being used in?
And, and that.
Determines whether it's an assetor a challenge.
The best way to test this athome.
Those stuff is how you and yourpartner load the dishwasher.
Now, you and your your spatial,your partner might also be

(20:42):
spatial, but that's a wonderfultest in our household.
We see that all the time, so.

Or pack for a vacation.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it is funny.
I was doing the different, um,kind of brain games and things,
exercises.
So, uh, a couple of them, I waslike, Oh, like I told my
husband, I was like, Oh, you'dbe really good at this.
Like, like, especially the onesthat I was like, Oh, I'm
terrible.
Um, but okay.
I'd love to really dive in andkind of.

(21:11):
Get an inside look at what thislooks like.
So we can use mine as anexample.
Um, but could you explain justbriefly, you know, maybe one or
two of the exercises and, andwhat they are?
Because people might assumelike, Oh, it's a survey, but
what are these really?

Yeah, I mean, so one of them, for example, we
don't want to give too much awaybecause we want, obviously,
users to have the fullexperience that you had.
Um, but one of the, uh, uh, uh,uh, exercises, uh, was, uh,
looking for inductive reasoning.
And so you scored as adiagnostic problem solver.
Um, so this is basically tellingus that you're quite comfortable

(21:49):
making decisions under pressure.
You're able to connect topeople.
The dots get down to the essenceof something.
Fill in the missing pieces andfeel confident making a
decision.
Even when you don't have all thefacts in front of you, um, the
person who's the opposite of youwould be called a fact checker.
And these are people who aremeticulous at gathering
information and they want allthe information they're going to
say, I need to sleep on itbefore I get back to you.

(22:09):
So the brain game or theexercise for this is a series
of.
Pictures and you're tasked withfinding some kind of commonality
between a few of the pictures ina sequence.
So basically being able to findconnections between disparate
ideas or concepts is what'sbeing looked at.
And so there's a bunch of theselittle assessments that you
can't really game.
You don't know what's beingteased out of that.

(22:32):
So yeah, Betsy, what

And you don't know what the right answer
is, though.
I, I, when I was doing that one,I was like, Oh, I feel like I'm
playing connections, like theNew York times game, which is
one of my favorite games.
So

actually, that's a really, I had a client who said
the exact same thing, actually,Stephanie, that they love those
games, the New York Timesconnections.
Absolutely.
Yeah.

Okay.
Let's dive in.

so I will go ahead and share my screen all right.
So, um, basically, I, you know,there's so much information
here.
So, you, when you go back toyour dashboard, you can see how
your, uh, what your aptituderesults were your personality
results and then also yourinterest survey results.

(23:16):
So, those are the sort of, likeI said earlier, the 3 legs to
the stool.
Um.
You can learn how this is goingto be helpful in your daily
life.
Each of these results.
Um, and also where you might runinto some challenges.
So, like, Betsy said, all ofthese need to be managed.
And so it's good to know, um,your strengths, but also maybe
some, some shadow spots witheach of these.

(23:38):
Um, so there's a lot you candive into.
But what I really want to showyou is, um, something that we.
We talk about a lot in the bookis, um, kind of the inherent
bias that, uh, has been, uh,kind of going on for so long in
career guidance.
Um, especially because so oftenwe just give people self
reported surveys to determinewhat careers they should be

(24:01):
exploring.
And so, in a self reportedinterest survey, Stephanie, you
would get these careerrecommendations, right?
So these are the careers thatwould come up just based on what
you said.
Look really fun.
Now, this might be fairlyaccurate because you have maybe
some work experience.
You've had some exposure, but tosomeone who's maybe 17, um, I

(24:23):
would question how reliabletheir self reported interests
are because they maybe haven'thad a ton of exposure yet.
Maybe they're just going off ofwhat their parents do or.
What someone on a bus told themthey should do.
I mean, literally, this is whatpeople this is how people make
many career decisions.
And so just looking at someone'sself reported interests based on
limited exposure can be a realmistake and can really misguide

(24:46):
a lot of people.
However,

I may just jump in

Yes,

So thinking back to when I was 17,
I, I was like, I'm bad at math.

Mm.
So common.
Mm-hmm

So, and actually, objectively, I can
look at all of my testing scoresand all those things that I'm
objectively not bad at math.
But that was what I thoughtabout myself.
That's the assumption that Imade.
So.

That's the bias.

you know, these interests here are things
that I naturally would havegravitated, gravitated toward.
In fact, I studied psychology inundergrad because I was like,
well, I'm bad at math, so I'mnot going to do that.
Right.
Um, and so it was so funny to meto get numerical detective as my
like moniker, um, but itactually fits because I have had

(25:35):
a job in the past that was, um,in data analysis and that
portion of the job I reallyloved.
So

but it's, it's, it's not that your interest
suggestions aren't maybe also afit, but it's what else are you
leaving on the table?
And what did you leave on thetable at a pretty critical
point?
So, we're going to talk abouthow you can make sure that
you're scratching these itchesthat you have that are true
aptitudes as well, um, withoutquitting your job, but, or

(26:08):
adding something on.

And, and, and what you experienced, Stephanie has
actually been heavily researchedand there's, there's some
incredible studies out therethat show us that especially
young women are, um, are sort ofhurting themselves in their
career navigation because, andcareer management, because
they're making early decisionsbased on interests alone.

(26:30):
And those interests are.
Often based on what they see insociety, what's been reinforced
in their upbringing or atschool.
Um, and they're, they're leavingaptitudes on the table.
Um, and so they're going intocareers that are not full fits
for them.
And, and really missing out onsome, um, on some wonderful

(26:50):
opportunities in their careers.
And so that's, uh, that'sexactly, you know, and you're
not alone.
I've had a lot of clients whosaid, oh, no, I'm terrible at
math.
I'm terrible at math.
And then they score as numericaldetectives, which, by the way,
is an assessment looking atnumerical applied numerical
reasoning.
Right?
So that's different than just,you know, doing fractions and so

(27:10):
sometimes students actually, uh,it sounds like you did well in,
in math in school, butsometimes, you know, Students
don't do well in their mathclasses, and they really think
this is proof that I should notgo into a numerical career.
And that's often not the case atall.
And so, if I go back here andshow you now your aptitude
matches, right?

(27:31):
Your careers that match youraptitudes, your innate talents,
we see a very differentarrangement.
I'm seeing engineering, I'mseeing architecture, um, life
science, animal science, um,Physics professor.
And, you know, whenever you seesomething like a science
professor, a mathematicsprofessor, that's saying, yes,

(27:53):
you have an aptitude for theseSTEM fields.
And you are someone who's goingto be great at explaining.
Uh, I think you scored as aliaison explaining and getting,
uh, concepts that are complexand getting other people excited
about those things.
Because you're good at bridginginformation.
So that's,

a podcast host.

that's right.

it is, you know, I do love podcasting.
It's really fun.

You're, you're basically the professor of
podcasting.
Yeah,

There we go.

well, and what's, I'll just tag on to this that
these, you know, we always tellour clients don't take this
literally, look at the pattern.
So this is just saying work in atechnical field of some sort or
working with data, working withinformation, explaining
information would all be greatfits for you and where you'd
find a lot of satisfaction.

(28:45):
But why don't you open one upjust so we can show you the
depth.

Yeah.
Let's, which one would you liketo look at Stephanie?
Pick, pick your card.
Let's

Let's look at,

they're not in any, you know, ranking order.
They're just a group together asgood fits.

okay, great.
Um, how about engineeringprofessor?
I

see.
Where did I see that one?
Oh, thank you.
Okay.
Perfect.
All right, so what you see hereis a ton of information.
As Betsy said, this pulls fromthe Bureau of Labor Statistics
website, Onet, which is thismassive database of career
information.
Um, what's really fun though is.
If you're like, I don't knowwhat an engineering professor
does, or that doesn't soundinteresting to me.

(29:27):
You can click right here and itpulls up a box of other.
I know this is really tiny righthere.
A box of, uh, other names thatare or other career titles that
are similar.
So that you can expand yoursearch, right?
Um, you see career salaryinformation.
Day in the life.
What are these people do everyday?
What are your core tasks?

(29:47):
And then you see this, um, thesewonderful visual diagrams that
show you how your aptitudes bestmatch the career or how they're
a fit for the career.
So your aptitudes arerepresented by those purple dots
and the careers aptitudes arerepresented by the white dots.
And so this is showing you thisis a really nice.
Um, match, because you have alot of overlap there.

(30:08):
Um, and it's actually a decentinterest fit also, right?
So we talked about separatingout interests and aptitudes, but
it just so happens that thisdoes actually align with some of
your, um, self reportedinterests as well.
And then you can see some of therelated careers and things.
Yeah, go ahead.

thought that portion right there was so
interesting because I wasclicking through various ones
and I was just thinking, wow,like, this seems like a really
great fit for me, or this wouldbe really cool.
Um, and it is actually somethingI've been considering, um, just
because, um, I really like a lotof the information that I get to
deal with on a day to day basis,but I'm really excited about new

(30:47):
information.
And so I've been thinking,should I go back to school
again?
Or should I, you know, uncoversomething different?
And, um, so it was reallyinteresting to be like, Oh, like
this kind of is adjacent to someof the things I've been
considering.
And then not this one inparticular, but I was looking at
like genetic counselor or um,

Totally.

you know, was fascinating to

and, and the end result of this, um, Alex always
likes to say it's, it'spermission, you know, you're
giving yourself permission.
Like I can do that with someconfidence that that's, that
would be a fit for me.
Everything's going to takemotivation and hard work,
obviously, but for you, it willnot feel like an uphill battle.
to do those things, the thingsyou're talking about, because

(31:29):
you actually do have theaptitude fit for them.
And we all have aptitude fitsfor many, many things.
So it's just finding the rightone that personalizes it to you.

Yeah.

And sometimes they

let's go down a little bit more and just take
you, finish this tour so we can.

I was just going to say, sometimes, like you
said, there are very adjacentcareers.
It doesn't take a massive leap,but maybe just a small pivot,
um, to tap into more of thoseaptitudes.
So, what you can see here now issome really helpful career data
around.
career growth.
Is this a growing field?
Is it a declining field?
Where in the country do we seethe most growth in this

(32:05):
industry?
Um, what sectors of the economydo you find engineering
professors?
Obviously the majority areworking at universities, um, but
some are also in communitycolleges and trade schools.
So a lot of really helpfulinformation.
If you ever had to do a careerreport, this is all here.
And then also you can see theeducation investment, Stephanie.

(32:26):
So when you talked about maybegoing back to school, you can
see, okay, what do I alreadyhave?
What degree do I already have?
And how much more educationwould I need?
Um, some jobs have a combinationof, you know, formal education
plus on the job training.
Maybe it's actually just acertification plus on the job
training.
So you'll see that breakdownhere.

Yeah.
Fascinating.

Yeah.
So.
me stop sharing here.

So I think that was so interesting
because, um, also, you know, Ilike that you have the interest
fit and the aptitude fit in thatdashboard, and then you can also
do overall fit.
And so one of the top things wasindustrial organizational
psychologists, which isfascinating because, um, I don't
have a PhD, but I have, I dohave a master's in
organizational communication.
And so, you know, day to daybasis, I'm working with on their

(33:17):
communication.
Um, and so using the Enneagram,but of course, like, What if I
could expand that more?
What would that look like?
You know, so it kind of gave mesome things where I was just
curious about different avenuesto, to pursue.

Right.

I love that.
That's great.

I think one other thing that struck me
was, um, that in my ownexperience with my career, I
felt like.
There's something wrong with methat I'm not getting it.
There's something wrong with methat I'm not really thriving, or
I'm not loving this, or doesn'teveryone want to do this?
Why am I not enjoying it?
Um, and this was one of thosethings again, like you said,

(33:59):
permission, right?
Where it's like, Oh, it makessense that I don't exactly love
this part of my work becauseit's just something that's going
to naturally stretch me versusnaturally be a good fit.

We have actually interviewed someone that really
illustrates that exact feelingand he, um, was working in
accounting and, you know, he'dgotten his education in that.
He was very confident thatthat's what he was going to
going to thrive in and reallylove it.
And.
He every day was just on the,you know, it was just struggling
and just really fatigued by thework every day.

(34:35):
But to make that even worse,like salt in the wound was that
he'd look around and all of hiscolleagues were just like on
cloud nine, loving their jobs.
Everyone was so happy, justthriving in their element.
And so it just made it made himfeel so much worse.
Right?
So he ended up moving into, uh,Uh, actually waste management,
right?
Betsy.
It was a waste managementcompany, but he was actually
doing branding and advertisingand you know, that, that, that

(34:59):
brand management piece, and itwas so much more of a fit for
his, um, more creative impulsesas well as just, just the
environment was what he wanted.
Um, yeah, go ahead.

But the good news with that was he had this
accounting degree, which wasalways very useful and he could
do the work.
It's just that he didn't feellike every day he was energized
by it.
So a lot of times we can workour way or, you know, apply a
lot of grit to do something.
Certainly hard work andpractice.
You can almost do anything.

(35:30):
But why would you?
So he was able to salvagesomething that he had invested a
lot of time and money in withthe accounting, and that
actually really brought an assetto that other career, and, uh,
now it's a very entrepreneurialjob, actually, they, it was a
start up company, I think theyrent dumpsters or something to

(35:50):
construction, so, I mean, it wasmore than just, I guess, waste
management, but, uh, I guessthat's the industry, but, uh,
he's loving it, and it's doingextremely well, so.

You know, a lot of people we talked to have like a
law degree, for example, andthey end up going into something
else.
We talked to someone who, uh,was a very competitive, uh,
softball athlete.
And, um, she ended up gettingher law degree, but just had
this itch to do something backin the sports industry.
And she actually started a, uh,pickleball content, media
content company called thepickler.

(36:22):
And so this was a way she didn'tdrop her law practice.
She's still doing that, but thiswas something she could add on
to tap into more of her otheraptitudes and other interests
that weren't being, uh, used inher, uh, law career.

yeah, that's so fascinating and I
really appreciate that becausethis question of burnout always
comes back, right, in anyconversation we're having about
career, um, because that's wherea lot of us do find burnout.
So how can your hidden geniushelp us when we're facing that?

That's a great question.
Yeah.
So some of the examples we gaveyou are, are, I think are
telling.
So there's two things, you know,Betsy always says, don't put
your job on the witness stand.
So, um, actually this was my, mycousin.
I actually interviewed for thebook who was working as a
respiratory therapist and shewas totally burned out.
This was before COVID and shewas totally burned out, was just
not energized or inspired by herwork.

(37:20):
COVID happens, all of a sudden,the work becomes super urgent,
super busy, super fast paced andher clients or her, her patients
change, uh, all of a sudden nowshe's working with a lot of
young patients, which isactually heartbreaking, but
brings a new, um, energy andurgency and importance to her
work and all of a sudden she'sin her element again.

(37:41):
So it wasn't, thank goodness shewas about to abandon ship and
just say goodbye to her career.
Actually, when I gave her theyou science assessment,
respiratory therapy was awonderful match for her
aptitudes.
It was a matter of context, andthe context changed.
And then she fell back in lovewith her work.
Other times, we, we see peoplewho add something onto their
existing work, like an avocationand other times, it's just

(38:03):
raising your hand to do more ofthe writing or more of the
social media or more of thedesign, uh, for your existing
company, um, to tap into some ofthose aptitudes, uh, that are
not being met.

Now, like I noticed on your results, you're a
liaison Stephanie, which is moreof a personality measure, very
connected, I think in many waysto Enneagram, but, uh, liaison
specialists, they're kind ofdifferent.
Group together want to go deepon whatever it is and we always
explain it such that you knowLet's say you were a travel
agent and you were just youknow, a travel agent is a very

(38:40):
generalist kind of job You'regonna book the Disney cruise.
You're gonna send the conventionto Vegas to this and that hotel
But if you were in that jobWithin a week, he would be
researching everything on Cuba,and you'd want to be the go to
person on Cuba.
Like, you'd still book theDisney Cube, but, the Disney
Cruise, but you would absolutelyhave a specialty inside of that

(39:03):
job.
And so that can also alterthings for people, is where
they, they, they, Find a specialrole within the job they already
have or a special area wherethey can, um, be the expert in
some way, or apply that aptitudefor idea rate by again, writing
the company newsletter orvolunteering to, um, you know,

(39:24):
train people, for example.
So sometimes it's just alteringthe role within the career
you're in.
And then sometimes certainly youhave to leave and make a big
change.

yeah, I really appreciate all of this
new information that I'm gainingand I know our listeners are
gaining from this as well.
Um, were there any other piecesof the kind of process of
assessing that you wanted totalk about or the results?
Yeah,

we could talk about, um, how to use that.
Discussion guide, which I thinkis invaluable.
Um, maybe we can pull that up,Alex, and show it to him.

Let me just find it again here.
I think this is it.
OkaY.
Here.

Okay, so one of the great things about having your
aptitude results that, again, donot really change after you've
gone through puberty, so age 17to 77, you can take this
assessment, and you're gonnascore the same.
Because, again, we're justassessing the seeds of your
skills, not the skillsthemselves.
So we are always developing newskills, but we want to be

(40:26):
developing skills that relate toour aptitudes.
So there's lots of tools thatyou can use within the Science
platform, as we've shown you,but also on Your Hidden Genius,
we've created all kinds ofworkshops and that kind of
thing.
But this is one of my favoritetools.
Um, This is called thediscussion guide and it's
available on the uSciencewebsite once you get your

(40:47):
results.
And what we've done is we've,uh, written, uh, Words about you
that relate to your aptitudes.
So everybody's report will bedifferent.
And here's yours says, you know,you're a collaborative, you've
got a visual mind, you'relogical, you're, you create a
lot of ideas on and on and on.
And, um, what I recommend peopledo is make two copies of this,

(41:10):
uh, one for yourself and one forsomeone who loves you and knows
you very well.
So your husband, your mother,your sister, your coworker.
And take a highlighter and picksix words that really hit home
to you.
Um, now you can use all thesewords for your resume or for
your LinkedIn profile or to talkabout yourself.

(41:31):
But for this exercise, I wouldjust say pick six words.
And then you'll also see in thisreport, uh, if you scroll down,
Alex, maybe 55 different firstperson statements about you.
And this is where a lot ofpeople kind of have trouble when
describing themselves.
They don't really know where tostart, so we've done the work
for you.
I would suggest you pick six ofthese and highlight them.

(41:53):
Just six, and there's fifty, soyou're going to have to choose.
And then ask the person whoknows you well to take their
blank copy of this and do thesame exercise, not with you.
And then sit down together.
And what you're going to find isa truly wonderful conversation
because they're going to say,Oh, I picked that one because

(42:14):
don't you remember that timethat you did this or you always
do this?
Don't you remember?
And they're going to tell you astory.
And that story is going toremind you and confirm within
you and give you the confidencealso to absolutely lean into
these aptitudes and use them indifferent ways.
It's um, also helpful to usethis.

(42:35):
Um, sometimes I.
I take all these phrases andwords and I throw them in chat
GBT and ask them to rewrite themas a statement about me, and
it's really fun to see whatcomes out.
That's a useful way to put it towork as well.
This is just one example of allthe different ways, uh,
understanding what youraptitudes are can take you to

(42:55):
new places and more insight.
And, you know, I always say thisis truly about empathy and love.
Honestly, it's understandingother people, not as a flawed
version of you.
But as, as a wonderful person inthe universe, just as Enneagram
does that magic for people, Ithink this has a whole nother
layer that it can add to that,

this perspective.
And I also love, um, You know,attaching these stories to them
because that's what we're alwaystaught to do when we're like
writing resumes or cover lettersor whatever else.
And so this is like a bank ofthings that we can draw on.
Um, if we decide, okay, I dowant to, you know, move to a
different career.
and I'm curious for the two ofyou, if you each have one

(43:39):
aptitude that comes to mind thatreally benefited you or
supported you in some way inwriting this book.

Definitely, Betsy and I have 2 complimentary
aptitudes.
You don't have to pick this oneBetsy, but for me, it's
definitely how I score on theidea generation exercise.
So I am what's called aconcentrated focuser.
And so I, for the longest time,um, Uh, in work meetings where

(44:07):
there was, you know, a lot ofbrainstorming going on, I was
always the one who was pullingout my hair, like, just wanting
to get to work.
I wanted to pick something andjust go with it and see what
would work and then iterate fromthere.
Um, I, I've always been reallyfrustrated, um, when, when
people would say things like,you know, let's go back to the
drawing board.
Like, let's see what else wecould do.
You know, I just wanted to,like, implement.

(44:28):
Um, and so people wouldsometimes say, maybe I was rash
or I felt like I was justjumping in.
Um, Um, but what I learned whenI started my own practice is
that I am an implementer and Idon't sit on things for too
long.
And so I just, I go and, andthat became an asset.
Whereas I had previously seen itas a negative, I now see it as a
positive.
Um, but it does have to bemanaged.

(44:49):
And so when Betsy and I werewriting the book, Betsy is a
consummate brainstormer.
And so it was this really nice.
Tug, you know, push and pullwhere, you know, Betsy would
say, how about this?
How about this?
What if we thought about it thisway or tried it this way?
And I would say, let's go withthis one for now and just see
what, see how that looks.
And we would, you know, startwriting a chapter and then we'd

(45:10):
go back and iterate from there.
But that's a really nice pairingactually, if you can find that
in your work life, um, to workwith people who are both
concentrated Focusers andBrainstormers.

Yeah.
And you have the advantage ofunderstanding.
We have different strengths, notlike the frustration.
I mean, I'm sure it can befrustrating at times, but
instead of getting mired in thatfrustration, you can like see
the benefit.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, I think one of the subtitles of the book is
to harness these aptitudes.
And so they definitely need tobe reined in sometimes or given
more nourishment, really.
But, uh, the interesting thingis I know you were scored, you
scored us an idea, um, A lot ofideas, Stephanie, in your score,

(45:56):
a brainstormer like me.
And what I always like to tellpeople is, you know, having a
lot of ideas doesn't mean youhave any good ideas.
It just means you have a lot.
We're just measuring the rate atwhich they come to you.
So, um, That's really, to me,uh, something to, to understand
because people who don't havethis fast rate of ideas

(46:17):
oftentimes make fantasticsurgeons or pilots, they, they
are focused on one thing at atime and that's what we want.
So it's where you're puttingthis, these aptitudes that
matter much more than justknowing that you have them.
And that's why the book isreally helpful because you can
read all these stories about howpeople put them to work and then

(46:37):
what the challenges are foreach.

and then one other thing that's come to
mind just as we've beendiscussing this is how can we
create greater equity in theworkplace using these concepts
that you've presented?

Yeah, I'll chime in and just say, you know, kind
of.
Piggybacking off of what we weretalking about earlier with the
bias that is, uh, thatsurrounds, uh, career guidance.
When we just look at people'sself reported interests.
Um, our interests are, like Isaid earlier, influenced by who
we grew up around the community.
We grew up in.

(47:14):
The kind of television shows wewatch the kind of media we
consume.
And so there's really a real,uh, exposure gap.
We know that there's notactually a talent gap.
The talent is out there.
It's just that we're notproviding adequate exposure, um,
to people when they'renavigating and exploring career
options.

(47:34):
Um, I've always been a hugeproponent of, of early job
exposure and shadowing.
Um, when I was doing my researchin Switzerland, I was obsessed
with this concept of the sneakpeek week where students can
actually just go take a look ata company for a week and be a
fly on the wall.
So I think exposure is reallythe answer in, in, in getting

(47:56):
greater equity in the workplace.
That for me is like, that needsto come first.
I mean, I know Betsy hascomments on this too, but,

No, I agree 100%.
And I think the reality is we'reall, we all need more exposure
at every age to what our optionsare.
I mean, when people call meunhappy, I'm like, Well, the
first thing you need to do is,you know, talk to 100 people.
And that's shocking to people.
But there's a real differencebetween making a decision and

(48:25):
defaulting.
And unfortunately, most of usdefault, we don't spend enough
time exploring, And so I wouldsay that that's the biggest
thing I could recommend topeople is, you know, to give
yourself the grace of exploring.
And once you understand whatyour aptitudes are, you're going
to have so much more fun with itto know sort of where to go.

(48:46):
Why, like, why not talk to thatgenetic counselor?
And I hope you have, um, andlearn about what their day is
like.
It could lead to some totallydifferent thing that you never
thought about before.

Well, and I love it too because looking at
those careers, there are so manyand so many things I never would
have considered or it neverwould have, you know, crossed my
mind.
Um, and so.
It feels like exciting and, youknow, like you said before,
permission.
Um, so I really appreciate thataspect of it.

and now you have this new vocabulary.
So when you're writing that coldemail or making that cold call
to the genetic counselor, youknow, you can say, Hey, I just
learned that I have thisaptitude for spatial reasoning
and numerical reasoning, and Iwant to see how I can put these
to work and to the test.
Can I, can I come observe whatyou do?
So this, this hopefully helpsyou with that communication as

(49:37):
well.

yeah, I love it.
This is so cool.
Um, well, our podcast listenerswill hopefully are not getting
nervous.
I'm going to ditch the podcastsoon here.
Um, that's, that's probably nothappening, but, um, you know,
we'll see, maybe it'll become anew iteration of the podcast.
Um,

start interviewing more genetic counselors, who
knows, right?
I

yeah.
I mean, there's so manyopportunities, um, so many
possibilities.
So.
Where can our listeners connectwith you and get this book?
Because I think everyone isgoing to want it now that we've
been talking about all of thisand I've been talking about, you
know, my insights and, andhearing from you guys.
Um, so we want hidden genius.
Where do we find you?

(50:17):
Where do we get your book?

You're hidden genius.
com.
Um, and then anywhere you buybooks, um, it's also, um, on
audible.
Um, so anywhere you buy books,you can grab it, but if you want
to see all of our resources andthe free tools that we were
talking about for workshops or,you know, discussions with your
team, you can, um, get thoseresources at our website.
You're hidden genius.
com.

Yeah, and I would say, just to outline it for
people, what's different aboutthis book is it's so much more
than a book.
Um, as you did, you, you readthe first two chapters, it sort
of explains all that we'vetalked about before now.
So you're, you're understandingwhy this is different than
Enneagram or interestassessments or personality
assessments and why you need it.

(51:02):
And then, um, the next thing youdo is you use the unique code on
the back and then you go takethe assessment.
And then I would say come backand you're going to read the
rest of the book, which is goingto be all about you.
Which, who doesn't love thattopic?
Okay.

Um, so two closing questions.
I always love to ask our guests.
First one is tell me about abook that has helped you refresh
you or shaped you in the lastyear.
Okay, Alex, we can start withyou.

Um, gosh, it depends on like the, there's
like, there's two that come tomind.
So, um, in, in likeunderstanding, I think our
social and political landscapein this country, I feel like
Tightrope, uh, was a book that Iread in the last few years that
really helped me see, um, Just,yeah, just that landscape in a

(51:55):
really fresh new way and, andwith more empathy.
Um, and then, uh, another authorthat's really inspired me in the
last couple of years on like amore spiritual level has been
John O'Donohue, who's passed,who passed away a few years ago,
but, um, his work has inspiredme.
I think on, on that morespiritual level.
So two different levels,

Love it.
That's perfect.
What about you, Betsy?

I mean, I'm really having trouble thinking of
something.
I read a lot of non fiction,mostly history.
So, I just read a book calledMaster Slave.
Um, Husband and Wife, I believe.
It's a Pulitzer Prize winningbook.
But That's really it.

That's fine.
That's great.
Um, and I also think, you know,for authors, we understand that
you are, you have read thisabout 15 times, but, um, you
know, other books are harder.
So then tell me one piece ofadvice that has really stuck
with you,

okay.
I have that one.
Um, I did read this book a longtime ago called the sweet potato
queen's book of love.
I'm from the South.
And she talks about hergrandfather every time that, um,
they would go see him.
He would lean into the car asthey were leaving.
And instead of saying goodbye orcome back soon or whatever you
would say, he would say, Beparticular and she said, well,

(53:23):
what does that not covereverything that next person
you're going to go out with thatnext?
Morsel, you're going to put inyour mouth be particular and I
think that's great advice

I love it.
That's so funny.

My daughter comes up with zingers.
She's 11 and a couple of yearsago, um, she, someone was kind
of droning on and on aboutsomething and she says, get to
the middle of the cinnamon roll.
So I have a tendency to like,you know, just kind of go on and
on and I try to get to themiddle middle of the cinnamon
roll as fast as I can.

(53:56):
Did

It's the juicy part.

you see this?
Yes, the gooey part for sure.

Great.
Well, thank you so much forsharing your, your time and
your, your genius with me today.
I've learned so much and I am soexcited to share this, um, with
the podcast too, because I thinkthat a lot of us will gain a lot
of things, um, like reallypractical takeaways, um, from
all of this work.
So thanks so much for joining

the opportunity

of course,

you

glad to have

was a fun conversation.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How to Choose a Career that Actually Suits You with Betsy Wills (3) & Alex Ellison (7)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

All Episodes

How to Choose a Career that Actually Suits You with Betsy Wills (3) & Alex Ellison (7)

On Purpose with Jay Shetty