How Your Enneagram Type Influences Your Money with Khara Croswaite Brindle, Financial Therapist, and Hannah DeGroot, LPC

Episode Transcript
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Khara (00:00):
financial trauma or inherited trauma is a big part

(00:02):
of that.
So the whole financial therapypractice is like, where's the
money healing?
We usually tend to start thereof like, what is the money
belief that's dictating yourbehavior?
Is it even yours to hold?
And so sometimes it's thatself-awareness of like, oh,
that's mom or grandparent orfirst boss, and that's not mine
to hold.
And then that changeseverything.
But if there's no awareness,there's no change.

(00:29):
Hello and welcome to Enneagramin Real Life, the podcast where
we explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BarronHall, and on today's episode, we
are doing a deep dive into theEnneagram and money.
Now this is somewhat of a hottopic and something I've
actually been asked to speak onbefore.
Personally, I don't typically dothat because I'm not an expert

(00:53):
in finances.
However, I have paired up withother financial experts in the
past, which has been reallyuseful.
And on today's episode I have acouple of people on who are
really able to.
Speak on both money and the nagram with expertise.
So today I am joined by KaraCrossway Brindle.

(01:13):
And Hannah Deru.
Kara is the published author ofeight books who is passionate
about turning pain points intopossibilities.
This means she loves talkingabout topics others wish to
avoid, like leadership, trauma,client loss and money shame.
As a social Enneagram typethree, wing two perfectionist,
certified financial therapistand serial entrepreneur who

(01:36):
specializes in working withhelping professionals.
She is the co-author of thebook, your Enneagram and Money
Transforming Enneagram EdgesInto Financial Freedom.
We also have Hannah DeGroot.
Hannah is a licensedprofessional counselor,
certified Enneagram coach,executive coach, and co-author
of the book, your Enneagram andMoney Transforming Enneagram

(01:57):
Edges into Financial Freedom.
In her practice, she uses theEnneagram to help individuals
find passion, motivation, andfulfillment in their personal
and professional lives.
So on today's episode, we talkabout their process working
together because as you heard,Kara is a social three and
Hannah is a self-preservationthree.
We talked a little bit aboutpartnership.

(02:18):
When you share a type, and thisis something that I've seen in
same type pairings in otherareas, but I think that when
you're working with somebody ofthe same type, often the thing
that you'll need to work withthe most and the thing that
you'll notice the most is yourdifferences when it comes to
subtype, um, or even subtypesequence stacking.

(02:39):
A lot of the time those thingsare more glaringly obvious than
they would be in different typepairings.
And because they're both threes.
We talked about super practicalthings because I think that's
one of the things that threesoften gravitate toward and are
really good at, is asking thequestion.
So what, so we have all thisinformation, so what do we do

(02:59):
with it?
Wanting to make things reallypractical.
And that's what we did today.
So we talked through all ninetypes and little tips about
money and, and how to have morefinancial wellness in general.
Both from their perspective.
And then they also asked me toshare a few things that I've
learned, um, over the years justfrom things that I've noticed.
So You can find links topurchase their book, which is

(03:20):
called Your Enneagram and Money,the show notes, and you'll also
find links to their Instagrampages and all their other info
that you will need to connectwith them and learn more from
these two.
Super helpful and practicalEnneagram threes.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Hannah and
Kara.

Stephanie Barron Hall (03:40):
Well, Kara and Hannah, welcome to the
podcast.

Khara (03:43):
Thank

Hannah (03:44):
Thank you.
Excited to be here.

Yeah.
Um, I'm excited to talk aboutthis topic of the Enneagram and
money because it comes up a lotand I'm not a financial expert.
I've been asked to write onthis, believe it or not, before,
and I, I actually partnered witha different, like financial
planner person on that and.
That worked well because I'mlike, I am not qualified to give

(04:09):
any sort of insight.
But the thing I will say where Ithink it pairs really nicely,
and I'm excited to hear you bothtalk about this today, is our
motivation comes out everywhere,right?
So money is like such anemotional thing.
I think.
We don't think of it that way,but it is.
So I'm really excited to chatabout that.

Khara (04:28):
I love that you said emotional, because that's like
the corner Soto financialtherapist right now is like,
money's emotional.
We're shouting it from therooftop, so.
Happy to dive into that and havelisteners get something from
that.
Feel validated.

Yeah, for sure.
Before we get there, let's startwith an introduction to your
background and you found theEnneagram.

Khara (04:48):
Yeah.
Hannah, you wanna go first sinceyou've been in this longer?

Hannah (04:50):
Yeah, sounds good.
Um, well, yeah, first andforemost, I am a mom.
I have two little boys who arefour and two.
I'm also a licensed professionalcounselor.
I have a private practice inDenver, Colorado.
I also work with a coachinggroup called Uncaged Clinician.
Um, I do professionaldevelopment coaching for them
where we help healthcareentrepreneurs start their own

(05:11):
private practices.
So a lot of.
Physical therapists,occupational therapists, nurses,
um, who wanna get out ofcorporate healthcare and be on
their own.
Um, so we talk a lot about moneywith a lot of those clients.
Um, and then I found theEnneagram through, um, a friend
in college that was back in 2012, 20 13.
And, and then afterwards, kindof like immediately.

(05:36):
Was fascinated by it, um,resonated with it and then kind
of forgot about it honestly, andwent through my graduate program
for counseling and nobody talkedabout the Enneagram, which I
think is such a disservice.
And I think the reason being wasthat it's not empirically
validated.
And so a lot of the grad schoolprograms don't see it as a

(05:56):
legitimate therapeutic, um,modality or, you know, something
to use in therapy.
But I had some friends who were,um, who were using it.
In their, in their studies.
Um, and then, yeah, I kind of,during COVID, I went on this
quest to better understand theEnneagram was just really,

(06:18):
really interested in it again.
Um, and that's when I found BiRANO, um, their podcast and
understood the subtypes.
And then that's what really gotme fired up about the Enneagram.
And now I use it in my practice.

Khara (06:30):
Um, in contrast, let's see, I think I found the
Enneagram around the same time,2012 ish.
Let's see.
I went to a training on it andthe way they set up the training
is they brought people in tointerview on each of the types.
And that was so powerful to havethem just like, do an informal
interview.
Tell us about your life, tell usabout your work.
And when they got to the threes,he started off with all of his
accolades.

(06:51):
And I was like, oh my gosh, thisis such a powerhouse person.
And then they said, what aboutyour personal relationships?
He's like, oh, I've beendivorced twice.
And that hit me in the gut sohard.
I was like, oh my God.
I like, like em, like I embodythis person and then oh my gosh,
here's this like growth edge.
And so I loved that kind oftraining of like, it really
stuck, it felt very emotionaljust to watch these folks like

(07:11):
share their story.
Um, and I had been told, if youfind your right Enneagram, it'll
have this visceral reaction inyour body.
So I knew I was a three.
It was very clear at that point'cause I was nauseous.
I wanted to curl over and likehide when he told me and
everyone in the room, this is mylife.
And so.
I didn't do much with it.
Um, I'm a mental healththerapist also here in Colorado.
So Hannah and I had connected onthis book of Enneagram and Money

(07:33):
and it really came back intoplay in my own burnout recovery.
So that was 2018 where I gotburnt out in the mental health
profession and started lookingat that three again of like, oh,
is this like inevitable forthrees when it comes to this
type?
And so started calling that outa little bit more, made it more
casual with my colleagues.
And lo and behold, I wrote ablog on Enneagram and Money, um,
back in 2023.

(07:55):
And everyone was like, oh mygosh, this is so relevant.
And then I cold called Hannahand said, Hey, you don't know
me, but do you wanna write abook on this?
'cause I don't have the coachingwhen it comes to the Enneagram.
I have just like this nerd outinterest in it.
And lo and behold, she said yes.
And here we are talking about itand having this book be a
bestseller now.
So really excited to be hereabout it.

Yeah.
That's so awesome.
So two threes, um, workingtogether.
Tell me a bit about any ahamoments.
Like, it sounds like, Kara, foryou it was immediate that you
knew you were a three, butHannah, was that clear for you?

Hannah (08:30):
Okay.
So it's been, it's been such aprocess for me in finding my
type and something that's kindof even like embarrassing in
some ways because it was like, Iwas so involved with the
Enneagram and was actuallyteaching the Enneagram and using
it in my practice already, and.
Still kind of behind the sceneshaving this.
Uh, this unsettled feeling aboutwhat my type really was and Bea

(08:51):
and Uranio were so, so helpfulin helping me figure it out.
But kind of like I said, back incollege, even my friends
immediately were like, you're athree.
And I very much felt that.
Um, and then I think, I thinkbecause of going to grad school,
honestly, and being around somany people who were just a
little bit.
I, I don't know if there were aton of threes in my counseling

(09:12):
program, to be honest.
Um, and so I think that, youknow, identification piece of
like, oh, well, maybe I'm moreof a two or a six, or, you know,
kind of identifying more witheither Yeah, either of those
types.
Um, and then I, so when I first,I didn't go to be in Irania
program right away.
I.
First went to a differentprogram, I won't say the name

(09:34):
here.
Um, because my experience withthem was they took a, they gave
me an assessment, I took a testand it told me I was an eight.
and.
Yeah, it was one of those thingsthat I was like, oh, that's
interesting.
I've always thought I was aheart type.
I've always felt like a hearttype always resonated with, you
know, the type three or maybe ifanything, like a two.
Um, and they were like, oh, wellthat's interesting, but you're

(09:57):
an eight.
And there was just noconversation about it, which
kind of set me on this path of,okay, well maybe I'm a body type
and what does that look like?
And there were definitely somethings that resonated with the
eight.
But there was a lot, especiallyaround the image piece that I
was like, I wish that I didn'tcare about what people thought
of me, but I, I just do.

(10:18):
Um, and so I kind of knew Icouldn't be an eight.
And then Seth, I don't know ifyou remember this, but I
actually came to you for atyping interview as well.
'cause I was in that process of,I have no, I feel so lost
because I was solid in my typeand now I am not.
And.
Yeah, I was just reallyconfused.
And I think very rightfully so,at the time you were like, I'm
hearing a lot of six in you.

(10:40):
And then.
Yeah, looked more into six andwas like, yeah, I could totally
see so much that resonates withthe type six.
And then I went to work with BiRANO and they helped me see
that I was very much kind ofstuck in my era to six.
Um, at the time, because ofC-O-V-I-D-I had had my first
baby around that time.

(11:01):
And then my self instinct Ithink was just off the charts.
Um, and then I think also just.
Family and, uh, personalbackground kind of set me up to
be more in that arrow line.
Um, and so it was superinteresting working with them
because they were like, youactually, I don't know if a lot
of people who know the Enneagramknow about this, but they were

(11:21):
like, you actually need to dosome ego restructuring.
Um, you need to actually be morelike a three.
You need to identify more withthe positive sides of the type
three.
Um, because I think for so long.
I maybe had some negative sides,and again, like very much in my
ear to six.
And so kind of for the next sixmonths after that process with
them, did some egorestructuring.

(11:42):
And yeah, have felt a lot moreat home in my type, and so it
feels great.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Um.
I think that's such a goodexample of like one, it's, it's
really not helpful for somebodyto be like, well, the assessment
says this, so you're just this.
Um, you know, I, I've beenthrough some of those trainings
as well where they're like, ourassessment is 97% accurate.
And I, of course, I think thisis a thing about sexual threes,
I think we're a little bit morecontrarian than some of the
other threes.

(12:08):
And so I was like, that's not myexperience.
And they're like, well, you'rewrong.
And I was like.
Okay.
I mean, I don't know, like, youknow, but I kind of was like, I
don't like that.
But it's not helpful becauseit's confusing, especially if
you are another referencingtype.
So two, three or nine, oractually six sixes are not

(12:31):
necessarily other referencing,but they do get really confused,
um, on their type.
So I think.
That's like a good indicationfor you where you're like, oh,
maybe I am a three after all,because I was so convinced by
them just telling me that.
And even like otherprofessionals don't always get
it right, like obviously like Isaw something different.
Right.

(12:52):
And I think that's the power ofworking with people who've
worked with the Enneagram for solong and, um, the ego
restructuring piece is soimportant.
So, and then you resonate mostwith self pres subtype,

Hannah (13:05):
Yes, definitely.

and that also makes a lot of sense.
Like I see a lot of self presthrees overlapping with eights
and sixes and things like that.

Hannah (13:14):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I think that the thingthat really clued me into, I, I
just can't be a six andironically, because this process
was so confusing for me, buttypically, especially in a work
setting, I'm very.
Decisive.
Like I'm very easily able tomake a decision and go for it.
Um, and so that, that part ofthe six just didn't resonate at

(13:35):
all.
And then my coach with CPEnneagram helped me figure out,
like all of the fear that I wasfeeling was, yeah, just tied to
the self pre, it wasn't thisgeneral fear, um, or this
general skepticism.
It was really more of a worriedabout my kids' safety, worry
about, you know, the healthcrisis that was happening in our
country, that kind of thing.

That makes so much sense, that
context.
And so Carrie, you resonate mostwith the social,

Khara (14:00):
I do.
Yeah, actually, Hannah was theone to give me that language.
So I had done the basic trainingwith this other group, and it
came back into my personal lifeas premarital counseling, where
they had us do the Enneagramagain.
And then we talked about likeour family system and how we
thought they would look like,what their types might be.
And that was really insightfulon a personal level.

(14:21):
Excuse me.
And then I met with Hannah andshe's like, so tell me what you
know about subtypes.
And I was like, zero.
Nothing.
I know nothing about subtypes.
So she's like, listen to thispodcast, read this book.
'cause I had just enoughinformation by PlayPlace say, to
be dangerous, but not enough tolike really go into the weeds
with all of the subtypes.
So once you reflected, here arethe three subtypes.

(14:41):
And she's like, I think justfrom how you're interacting with
me on this first call, you'resocial.
And I was like, well, tell memore about that.
And she rattled off some things.
It's like, oh yeah, that'spretty obvious.
So unlike Hannah's journey, minefelt very straightforward and
like a, there's no questioning.
It was like, this is what it is,for better or worse, especially
that visceral, nauseous reactionthe first time it came around.
And then when she gave me thatcontext, I was like, okay, I

(15:03):
feel validated, I feel seen, andI still know what I need to work
on.

Yeah.
What?
I love that.
It's such a good example of howso often what we're we hear
about type three is the socialthree.
So like it makes a lot of senseand I actually was so excited to
chat with you today because Ivery rarely come across social
threes

Khara (15:23):
Hmm.

that are doing inner work.

Khara (15:26):
How

So if you're out there, you're a
social three and you're doinginner work.
Let me know.
I wanna chat.
But, um, even when I was writingmy book, I had a really hard
time finding a social three tointerview because it's, you just
get, you do everything so well.
You're like, this is working.
You know, it works until itdoesn't.
Right,

Khara (15:46):
Exactly.
That's where my head just wentof like, until it doesn't, and
then you crash.

Yep, yep.
So what was it like with the twoof you then working together on
this book?
You know, a lot of the time.
We look to other types forbalance, but you're the same
type.
So how did that work for you?

Khara (16:04):
I, I think one memory that stands out as Hannah said,
like, okay, you're social.
You're gonna wanna do all theseinterviews and all this
marketing.
You're gonna have a, a blast.
And she's like, I don't wanna doall that.
When we first came together, sheset this like really healthy
boundary of like, that's not whoI am.
I don't wanna be in front ofscreen.
And doing all these like,marketing things.
Um, obviously we were aligned onour goal, but it just felt like

(16:25):
she was like, no, I don't wanna,I don't wanna have that
spotlight on me.
Where I was like, yep, I've donethis for years now, no problem.
And so I appreciated hertransparency of where her limit
was so that we could kind offigure out how they wanted to
coordinate on the book itself.
But probably not surprising tolisteners.
Two, three is we knocked thisbook out in five months.
Like we were like on it.
We were writing, trying to writeconsistently every week, and

(16:46):
it's not meant to be a heftybook that people can't finish.
So it was meant to be bite-sizedchunks that people could either
go to the chapter they wanted orthe whole thing cover to cover.
And so overall, when we went toour publisher and said, Hey, we
have this call to have it doneby this time, they're like, oh,
that, that's, that's prettyfast.
Are you sure?
And as someone who's writtenother books, I was like, yep,
I'm sure this is my trackrecord, four to five months to

(17:07):
write a book.
And Hannah's like, okay.
So she had to trust me in that.
'cause this is her firstpublished book.
And so I think that dynamicreally played out of like, yes,
we're both threes we're both gogetters.
And I was like, I'll be the oneto do some of the marketing and
social stuff and kind of takethat lead from that experienced
author place.
Whereas Hannah, this is thefirst time author experience

Hannah (17:26):
Yeah.

can be harder than the writing.

Hannah (17:29):
Yes.
Yeah.
And it just as a self riskthree, it just feels so weird.
Like, I know it's really normalto, like, people have their own
books and their background oncalls and like that part feels
so uncomfortable for me.
So it's been good, um, to moreget outta my comfort zone.
But yeah, like Kara said, Ithink that's probably the
biggest.
Differentiator between the twoof us.

(17:49):
Um, yeah, and I think it comesthrough in our writing too.
Like we are, we get to the pointwe're very practical.
It's, we want you to take actionon, like, don't just learn about
what, how your relationship withmoney is.
Go do something about it.
Um, and so I think it reallycomes through in our book just
how we wrote as threes.

Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I'm curious, we talkedabout this a little bit at the
top of the show, but also I wantto dig a little bit deeper and
probably hearing from you, Kara,how does Enneagram complement
financial therapy in helpingpeople transform their money
mindset?
Because it feels like a reallynatural fit.
But you have all this expertiseand I wanna know more about from

(18:31):
your perspective.

Khara (18:32):
Yeah, so there's about 120 certified financial
therapists in the US and so I'mone of those folks, and I
started that journey and thepandemic burned out for the
second time in my mental healthcareer of like, oh, cool, here
we go again.
And so I was looking forsomething different.
And so when I went into mytraining to be a financial
therapist, they kept saying,money is emotional.
Money is emotional.
Like it's 90% emotion, 10%logic.

(18:55):
This is why people can't moveforward with their other
financial professionals, thatit's not as simple as follow a
budget, that it's not as simpleas invest or whatever that may
look like depending on theprofessional they're working
with.
And so I started to realize thatmoney was relational and I was
like, it's makes so much sensethat we would look at the
Enneagram to inform us on ourspending, saving, earning
potential.

(19:15):
From that relational lens.
I mean, I'm someone who lovesattachment theory and things
like that.
So this all kind of blendedtogether to make that possible.
And as soon as I starteddescribing it that way, people
were like, yeah, I have arelationship with my money.
It might be a toxic relationshipwith my money, or an avoidant
relationship, or an anxiousrelationship, but that language,
like you said, was alreadythere.
We just had to put the Enneagramlens to it.

(19:37):
And now at the time of thisrecording, we have other folks
starting to write books thatlook very similar to our book
because I think people want thisinformation.
So it's really interesting inlike the timing of like wrote
the blog that took off, came toHannah, wrote the book.
I was like, huh.
Now everyone wants to know aboutit, including some of those news
channels who are putting outarticles themselves.

Yeah.
What are some of the commonmoney challenges that you are
then able to highlight?
Like is it based on Enneagramtype?
Is it based on money,relationship, or background?

Khara (20:08):
Yeah, so the book is kind of structured in two ways.
Part one looks at the Enneagramand the assumption is the reader
knows something about theEnneagram to pick up this book.
'cause we're like, we don't needto rewrite the wonderful books
out there about what is theEnneagram.
And so the first part of thebook is taking all.
All nine types and the subtypesaying, here are some common
beliefs about money.
And so we normalized from abunch of interviews that we did

(20:28):
with under earners in ournetworks and said, tell us what
you look like with your money.
What does it look like to spendyour money?
What's it look like to save yourmoney?
Do you feel like you're earningenough money?
And so our audience truly areunder earners, which tend to be
more women focused.
Um, and were like, tell uswhat's going on there.
So that informed our chapters onall nine types.
And then part two of the bookis, how do you save your money

(20:50):
from your Enneagram?
Edges, as I call them.
Um, how do you spend your moneywith that in mind?
And then how do you earn moremoney?
So the last three chapters arevery much the financial therapy
with the skills and tools that Iteach people every day.

Did you incorporate the subtypes?

Hannah (21:07):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it.
It took a lot of like diggingand thinking and all of that,
but I just, as we were talkingabout the book originally, we
talked about having ninechapters of on the Enneagram,
and I just kept telling Kara, Ijust don't think I can do it.
I, I, because the counter typesand because of the subtypes, you
can't, I mean, we couldgeneralize to a certain extent

(21:28):
about, you know, our coremotivation and core fear and
things like that.
Um, but really when you'rethinking about how specific the
subtypes.
Uh, or the instincts influence,um, the types.
I just couldn't leave them out.
Um, because I don't know, likefor, um.
I'm trying to think, like forexample, like the Type six is

(21:49):
gonna be really, wanna be reallyresponsible with their money and
might be really risk averse, butthen the sexual subtype of the
six, they might be willing totake more risks and they might
actually, um, have more troublesaving because of that.
And I just think that's lost ifwhen you're just generalizing,
you know, by Enneagram typeinstead of by subtypes.

Yeah, absolutely.
I would love to hear a briefrundown of how each type might
approach their relationship withmoney.
Um, and if you're, you'rewilling to share a practical
tip, that would be great aswell.
And if you want to as well speakto any of those like little
differences,'cause I do thinkthat's really important.
And I think especially withmoney, it feels really clear.

(22:30):
'cause I like look at myselfversus somebody who's self press
dominant.
It's very, very different.
Um, so I'd love to hear moreabout that.

Hannah (22:38):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, and yeah, just like I said,these are generalizations, so if
we don't cover all the subtypes,that's why we have the book.
Um, and so yeah, if you, if youdon't resonate with this right
away, it might just be because,um, your instinct is making you
kind of show up a little bitdifferently or of course, like
we all have different.
Financial trauma and financialhistories.
And so that's gonna influenceall of this as well.

(23:00):
But just as a, as a general,we'll start with eights as we
do.
Um, and so we all know thateights can be very controlling.
Um, they like to, um, do thingstheir way.
They like to, um, they don'twanna ever feel vulnerable or
out of control in that way.
And so that's gonna translate totheir relationship with money as
well.
Um, and so the, the belief thatEights have about their money is

(23:23):
that.
They'll do what they want withtheir money.
Um, and I think that can kind ofset them up to, um, to be
financial gatekeepers to useKara's term.
Um, where they are reallyprotective about the way that
they wanna do it, and they'renot as willing to coordinate
with a partner or ask for helpwhen it comes to money.

(23:43):
Um, they might feel.
Really excited when they have alot of money, but they, again,
with that era to five, theymight feel really avoidant, um,
if they don't have a lot ofmoney, um, which can obviously
influence how yeah, how theyrelate to it.
Um, yeah.
Kara, do you have anything elsethat you wanna add?

Khara (24:01):
Yeah, I was just thinking when we did our interviews,
eights were one of the firstpeople to slide into our inbox
when we made the call to actionof, Hey, who wants to talk to us
about their money?
And we had aches like, yep,let's come in here and talk
about it.
Especially if they're in a placeof feeling like they had money.
I think they were happy and,and, um, joyful to share that.
So the exercise we named in thebook, one of many, but I think
a, a theme for eights throughoutwas how do you relinquish some

(24:24):
of your control?
How do you like ease up a littlebit like as a three, I'm also a
control freak, so I'm not sayinglike go buck wild and like
release it all and surrender.
I think that would cause a lotof people some panic.
Um, but the exercise I wannacall out is money as a partner.
So we actually look at like theEFCT conflict cycle from a
couples.
So it's like a, uh.
Infinity symbol for those folksof thoughts, feelings,

(24:46):
behaviors, impact a response inthe partner, right?
So if money is the partner, whenyou have a thought about money,
how does money then show up inyour life?
It's a little bit of likemindset shift there.
Um, but then also with truepartners, like people, how do
you invite them in to some ofyour money work?
Are they doing a money meetingwith you?
Are you asking them for input onsome money decisions?
So we had a lot of thatthroughout the book for eight.

(25:07):
So like, how do you invitepeople in, whether it's a
partner or intimate partner,spouse.
Or a professional coming in andhelping advise you on your
money, which feels verydifferent than that.
Control.
Control where they might beinitially.

Hannah (25:19):
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.
Something I've seen.

Hannah (25:23):
Yeah, I wanted to ask you two, Steph, like please, I
would love to hear your thoughtson this too as an Enneagram
expert, if you have anyadditional thoughts as we're
talking about it.

I don't, I don't work specifically with
money, but it does come up a lotwith eights.
And I, um, in my book, I, so formy book I did the same thing.
'cause I was like, I have tohave real people, you know, uh,
talking about this.
And I worked, I, I interviewed aguy who was a therapist, um, and
we talked a lot about howtherapists don't get any
training, but it's running abusiness and you have to know

(25:52):
how to do that.
And he was a self press eight.
And so he was so like.
Looking at his, um, projectedrevenue and expenses like
multiple times per week, andthat was just how he dealt with
it.
And that is something I see alot with

Hannah (26:07):
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hannah (26:10):
Um, okay, so nines, um, we know that nines don't love
conflict and money can feel likeconflict, especially in
relationships.
Like we could have conflict withour own relationship with money,
but then in the context of apartnership, it's one of the,
the main things that couplesfight about, right?
Um, and so I think for a lot ofnines it's easier not to talk

(26:30):
about money.
Um, and so their belief.
Is that money upsets people sowe don't have to talk about it.
Um, we don't have to go there.
And so I think, and then alsobecause of the passion of the
nine, I think it sets them up tomaybe not know what they need or
what they really want, um, intheir relationship with money.
And so it just feels easier toavoid it altogether.

(26:53):
Um, I think they can feel reallystressed or frustrated.
By money.
Um, they can struggle to move onbig purchases either because
yeah, they don't know what theright decision is or because,
um, it feels like a bigcommitment that can feel really
daunting.
Um, I think also we see this,um, in the therapy world.

(27:15):
Nines have a hard time chargingwhat they're worth.
Um, and I think that especiallylike for no-show fees and for if
people owe them money, likethey're not.
It, they struggle.
It, it takes real effort toenforce those boundaries, um,
and to go and to ask and, andtell somebody, Hey, you owe me
money.

Khara (27:34):
Yeah, so the exercise, no surprise for them is loud
budgeting, which is a term thatcame out I think early January,
2024.
Um, and by concept it's settinga boundary of like, I will pay
for this, or, no, I won't payfor that.
This isn't a priority.
So in our, our workbook on thistopic, we were like, okay, what
are the sentences you can likedraft right now to sound like

(27:55):
you are feeling self-assured soyou can feel more confident when
you deliver that?
Can you anticipate a scenariolike going out to eat where
someone's like, let's split thebill, but they had a drink and
dessert and you didn't, andlike, are you okay with that?
So it aligns to the value-basedspending that's throughout the
book of like what's valuable toyou.
Um, but also encourages them topractice ahead of time.
How do I have a voice in this?

(28:15):
How do I say, no, thank you.
This isn't a priority.
Versus yes, I'm all in becausethey tend to blend so much with
the people around them that theydon't have a voice.
So this is a big growth edge forthem.

Yeah, for sure.
The only other thing I've seenthat I would add is, um, when
nines spend a lot on things thatgive them comfort,

Hannah (28:34):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.

um, I've seen that a lot

Hannah (28:37):
Yes, we talk about that with the self Pres nine
specifically.

Yeah,

Hannah (28:41):
Yeah.

for sure.
what about once.

Hannah (28:45):
Um, well this won't come as a shock, but ones believe
that there's a right way tospend money or to save money.
Um, they might have unrealisticexpectations for themselves in
regards to money.
I think it's especially hardsince we wrote our book for
under earners for um, ones whoare under earners because it
might mean that they have somedebt.

(29:05):
And I think for ones there's alot of guilt and shame.
Um.
Around debt.
I think for a lot of people itcan, but I think specifically
for ones, um, they might, yeah,I think their inner critic can
come out a lot in theirrelationship with money.
Um, and then, yeah, specificallyfor the, the social.

(29:26):
Um, or the sexual subtype,sorry.
I think for the self present andthe social subtype, it's a lot
more about like, I need tofigure out my relationship with
money.
Whereas the sexual subtype with,with ones might be more focused
on, um, how other people arespending money, especially if
they're in a partnership.
Um, or we talk about this in thebook, that they might not really

(29:46):
take ownership of the fact thatthey're in the money situation
that they're in.
Um, that that can be a realblind spot.

Khara (29:53):
Mm-hmm.
So the exercise for them isactually a really popular
exercise I do for every client,regardless if there are any
cramp type.
Um, but it's a word associationto help look at that black and
white thinking.
That's so common for ones to belike, it's this or this.
There's the right way, there'sthe wrong way.
And so word association forfolks that are listeners who are
like, I don't know what you'retalking about.
It's just what comes to mindwhen I say one word.

(30:15):
And so in the financial therapylens, it might be a word like
savings, debt, credit card,wealth, and watch them have all
sorts of narratives and judgmentshow up that really inform us.
How to help them, how to helpthem grow from maybe this black
and white thinking that'sholding them back to a different
place, whether that's mindset orbehavioral changes with their
money.

(30:36):
Uh, and so ones really shinewhen I do this exercise'cause
they're like, well I definitelyhave thoughts and they're very
much opposites of each other.
Uh, which then when we pointthat out, that leads to some
self-awareness of what do youwanna do with this information
now that you're aware that youhave these really charged
beliefs about money?

Yeah, I could imagine ones having a hard
time recognizing the emotionalpart of it because they're like,
it's just numbers.
Like it should be black andwhite.
I shouldn't be feeling so muchabout this.
And so they don't allowthemselves to explore that.

Khara (31:05):
That's right.
Yep.
Lots of shoulds.

Hannah (31:07):
Yes.

of shoulds.
How about twos?

Hannah (31:12):
Yeah, so for twos, um, they believe that they must give
their time or money.
So it doesn't always have to be,I'm donating to all of these
organizations, or I'm paying formeals for everybody.
Although it can look like thatsometimes.
But I think for a lot of twos,especially twos who are under
earners, it's more of this ideaof noble poverty, which is a
financial therapy term.

(31:33):
Um, meaning if I, um, sacrifice.
For if I sacrifice money, thenI, I kind of feel like a pride
in that.
Um, and I, I get a lot ofsatisfaction out of that.
And so yeah, I think that showsup a lot for, for especially the
social too in the, in the Noblepoverty, um, piece.

(31:53):
Um, I think again, talking abouttherapists, since that's what we
are, and we work with a lot oftherapists, I think twos find it
really hard to charge people tocharge what they're worth.
I think, um, they.
Are more comfortable charginginsurance or an entity over
charging a person that feels alot safer and less personal.
Um, they might struggle, um, toraise their rates, things like

(32:16):
that.

Khara (32:17):
Yeah, and so for our twos that we interviewed, they kept
checking in, is this okay?
Is this what you wanted?
It was like very clear.
There were a two even in howthey showed up when we
interviewed them online.
And so the exercise for them islooking at true attachment
styles with money to like havethe language of secure
attachment, anxious or avoidantattachment.
And we have some reflectionquestions for them to
potentially journal on of like,if money could respond to you

(32:40):
and reassure you, what could itsay?
Right?
So like really giving it thatpersonification of like, if this
was a person or a truerelationship, how would this
benefit you?
Coming from anxious attachment,it's gonna look really different
than the securely attachedperson saying Money is truly my
partner and I'm feeling securein that.
The anxious is gonna look morelike, um, Dr.
Stan Tonkin's image of like anocean wave crashing over us and

(33:01):
then receding.
And so that itself can be reallydisruptive to the, the Enneagram
two's nervous system of like, ohmy gosh, I'm like flooded, and
then I'm receding.
And that itself can be prettyimpactful to say the least.

Yeah, I like this concept of money as
like a relationship or like apartner, and that feels like a
distinctly heart type way, likelens of looking at it, but it
also feels very practical.

Hannah (33:28):
Mm-hmm.

think that it's normal?
Like, like have you encounteredthat elsewhere, or was it just
the two of you were like, no, itfeels like a relationship.

Khara (33:37):
Yeah, I mean in the financial therapy world, we have
a couple colleagues that reallyhave spoken to like attachments
specifically, and they're likeneuroscience and doing all the
things with that.
And so, um, you know, this isnot new to me because I've
worked with them and, andactually call them out and
represent them in the book oflike, here's someone else doing
this awesome work, and here'shis quiz on attachment styles
with money.
Um, so I think that's part ofit.

(33:59):
I think with money andrelationships, I don't think
that, like you said, that's new.
It's just having new languagefor it or like calling back
language that was out there fora while, maybe got kind of put
back on the back burner and nowis coming back into the fold.
And as Jen Cis narrow, she has abook, you're a Badass at Making
Money, she also talks aboutmoney as if it was an entity.
Like she has people writeLetters to money, which is

(34:21):
echoed in one of our exerciseshere shortly of like, let's
personify it, let's make it.
A, a partner in this and maybeit's an abusive partner, frankly
at first, but like there arethings we can do to transform
that over time, which is trulythe embodiment of financial
therapy is like progress.
We make progress.

Right.
Yeah.
So good, so practical.
Okay.
What about threes?

Hannah (34:43):
Yeah, threes.
Um, the belief that a lot ofthrees have when they approach
money is they money equalssuccess.
Um, I think a lot of threesbelieve that their self-worth is
somehow tied into their networth, um, which can feel really
challenging.
I think a lot of threes.
Money's important for threesjust across the board.

(35:04):
No matter what subtype you are,either you are worried that you
don't have enough all the timeor you want more of it, um, or
you're just, you're thinkingabout it whether you kind of
want to or not.
Um, I think that especially forself pres threes, there is that
idea that there's never enoughmoney, um, and that that is
like, so it shows up in myrelationship with my husband,

(35:25):
um, that is.
My approach is just, yeah, thisscarcity mindset.
And some of it is kind of, um,experiences that I've had
growing up, but a lot of itcomes from the self pre, um,
and, and feeling like I, yeah,need to stockpile work harder,
even though like all from allaccounts, um, we're okay.

(35:47):
Um, and then I think some threescan see debt specifically as a
failure and that can feel reallyshame inducing.

Khara (35:55):
Mm-hmm.
As a social three, absolutely Ican, I can confirm that.
Um, for the exercise, it'swarning signs with money, which
from someone who's come fromprofessional burnout, one and a
half times I couldn't helpmyself.
I be like, what's the actualwarning sign that things are
going downhill?
So we look at like, what are thetriggers?
What's the internal stuff that'shappening?

(36:15):
How is your relationshipshifting?
Right?
So even for a three saying, Hey,I've got all these accolades.
I've done all this.
Successful things in mybusiness, the relationships are
usually what suffer first,because we're in workaholic
mode, at least I was at onepoint.
Um, so warning signs, we justhave like a little exercise for
them to look at, okay, what doesthis look like relationally,
spiritually, what does it looklike mentally when it comes to

(36:36):
my focus?
Um, and it gives them just,again, some more language to
say, do I, am I even self-awareenough to know that things are
landsliding in a direction Idon't wanna go?
And from there there's pointedquestions at the end of like.
What do you want from others,which feels vulnerable for a
three who's like, oh, I'm notdoing well, and now I have to
lean on relationships that maybehave felt neglected up until

(36:56):
this point.
Um, so lots of growth edges inthat exercise for threes that
were inspired by my own burnoutrecovery, but also from that
financial lens, I.

Yeah, for sure.
That makes a lot of sense.
And I think it's very classicthree to have these cycles of
burnout.
Um, I've done it, you know,you've done it.
We've all done it.
but I think what's reallyinteresting is one thing that I
tell people about figuring outtheir subtype is looking at the
evidence.
How does it show up in yourlife?

(37:26):
So this is just like a quicklittle story about myself, but
when I was trying to figure outmy subtype, I had a really hard
time, um, because everything Ihad ever read about, like the
sexual subtype was like, oh, youjust wanna look like a Barbie.
You wanna get all this plasticsurgery or whatever.
That's totally fine for otherpeople.
But, um, the way that I wasraised, like contextually, there

(37:47):
was a different.
Image of what was like naturalbeauty kind of thing.
Um, and so I didn't, I reallydidn't resonate with this Barbie
concept

Hannah (37:57):
Hmm.

and, I then I started looking at my
money.
I was like, what do I spendmoney on?
Yeah, maybe I'm not, you know,dressing like a Barbie.
Maybe I'm not wearing heelsevery day.
Especially not after thepandemic, but like looking at,
oh, where do I spend money?
Okay.
Ulta, Sephora, um, likehaircare, like all of these

(38:20):
beauty products.
And I was like, okay, there,it's right.
Like that's a really goodindication.
And it like, totally told on me,um, of like what I valued over a
lot of different things.
Um, and I thought that wasreally interesting.
Um, and like a different lens onhow to find your subtype maybe?

Hannah (38:38):
That's awesome.

Yeah.
Um, okay.
How about type four?

Hannah (38:42):
Yeah.
So, um, fours, fours is anothertype where the subtypes are
gonna make.
People show up differently intheir relationship with money.
So the, the belief for four washard to be super specific about,
but, they believe that money islike, bad or corrupt.
Um, like it's, it somehow makesyou inauthentic.

(39:02):
Um, but then, and at the sametime, they also.
Or a little envious of peoplewho have more money and who seem
really happy, and so it feelslike something's missing.
Um, and so, yeah, I think thatdepending on the subtype, um,
they can either feel like, yeah,they don't have enough money and
others do.
Um, I think some floors arereally, really specific about

(39:24):
how they spend their money.
Um, and they're willing to spenda lot of money on things if it's
really important to them.
Um.
Obviously they wanna feel reallyunderstood, um, in their money
choices.
So I think that that can createsome conflict with a partner if,
um, the partner doesn'tunderstand, or family even for
that matter.
Um, and then force have a lot offeelings about money in general.

(39:46):
I think just they're aware ofall of their feelings, the
anxiety, the stress, theexcitement about it, the, um,
any like grief or shame thatcomes up over it.
So I think that that makes it.
Difficult for fours to interactwith money because it's, there's
so much there.

Khara (40:03):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Even our interviews with thefours, as Hannah alluded to,
there was like two differentcamps of fours.
Like it was just like, wait,there is no generalized.
One way to look at money.
Uh, we had some people who werelike, I wanna buy things that
are of value and or unique andpersonalized.
And then there are people whoare like, I wanna get rid of
this money as fast as possiblesubconsciously.
'cause I don't wanna hold ontoit because it's corrupt.

(40:25):
And so the exercise that wealready kind of left a
breadcrumb around was the steermoney letter.
So we take it a step furtherthan Jen Sisnero, which is her
letter writing exercise is like.
up with it.
We have that aspect, but we alsoname like, what if it's abusive?
What if it's an anxiousattachment?
What if it's avoidantattachment?
And so not just are we writing aletter to money, maybe getting

(40:45):
out all of those chargedemotions.
The second part of our exerciseis what will money say back to
you?
How will they write back?
Will they apologize saying, Ithought I was being helpful, but
now I realize I was beinghurtful.
Will they continue to beabusive?
I mean, I think that fortherapists, we nerd out over
that of like, let's see, likewhat is your internal narrative
going to say?

(41:05):
The money is gonna respond.
How are they gonna respond?
Um, and so far as.
As people, well, we have a lotof force in in therapy.
A lot of people who aretherapists are forced.
Um, I think that they'll lovethis exercise because it feels
so deep.
It's not surface level, it's noteverything's fine.
It's like, no, let's great.
Go straight at the chargedemotion and allow it to have a
space.

(41:26):
So all the exercise that we'venamed so far are best done
handwritten, so that there isthat brain body connection to
the emotion.
And so far it's been fascinatingto see what people are saying
that they wanna write about andhow money responds.

Yeah, so interesting.
Um, yeah, I, the only thing Ihave to add is like, I've seen
forests who do have a lot ofresources and they do have like
that good, you know, nest eggstill feeling like, well, if
only I were,

Hannah (41:55):
Mm.

you know, wealthier than I would do this.
And not always looking at like,oh, actually you could do that
if you want to, you know?
Um, but the, the oldrelationship still exists.
Yeah.

Hannah (42:10):
absolutely.

Those old narratives though, they're so
sticky.
I think that's true for all ofus.

Hannah (42:15):
Yes.

Khara (42:16):
We do talk about that pretty blatantly in the book, as
we call them, money, beliefs,and some of those beliefs you
wanna shed or get rid of, oflike, these aren't mine to hold.
But as Hannah named earlier,like financial trauma or
inherited trauma is a big partof that.
So the whole financial therapypractice is like, where's the
money healing?
We usually tend to start thereof like, what is the money
belief that's dictating yourbehavior?

(42:36):
Is it even yours to hold?
And so sometimes it's thatself-awareness of like, oh,
that's mom or grandparent orfirst boss, and that's not mine
to hold.
And then that changeseverything.
But if there's no awareness,there's no change.

Hannah (42:47):
Mm-hmm.
And that's where therelationship piece, like I think
we have to look at it as arelationship because all of our,
I mean, I'm sure we can allthink back and think of early
experiences that we had withmoney, and that's kind of the
start of that relationship.
And then it continues and itmight, you might even take it
on.
Your parents' relationship withmoney or how they related to
money.
And so, yeah, like Kara wassaying, it takes a while to

(43:08):
undo, um, or to rewire some ofthose beliefs because that
relationship has been in yourlife for however long you've
been alive and aware.

Yeah, for sure.
Okay.
Tell us about fives.

Hannah (43:20):
Yeah.
Okay.
So, um, the belief that we saidfor, for fives, or that we heard
from fives is that they need tomaster money.
They want to, um.
Um, they want to be really,obviously, competent with it.
Um, they don't wanna ask a lotof people for help.
It almost feels like this thingthat, like, I have to figure
this out, but I don't wantanyone else to be a part of this

(43:42):
process.
Um, and so they can isolatethemselves in their relationship
with money.
And then the scarcity piece isreally interesting with fives
because.
A lot of them, uh, worry thatthey don't have enough money as
one of those resources thatalways can feel scarce, like
time, money, energy, things likethat for fives.
Um, so money's included in that,but at the same time, there's

(44:03):
also this belief for some fivesthat, but I don't really need
much either.
Um, and so it's not necessarilya noble poverty, uh, influence,
but it's this idea of.
I, I can get by with nothing.
And that's kind of how thescarcity shows up for them.
Um, and so it's really, yeah.
It's interesting to talk withfives about money.

Khara (44:24):
Yeah, and so our exercise is the money barometer for
fives, which is asking them tothink about money that lands on
their account with no purposeand.
Go up from there.
So it might be like$500 that isgifted to you, no strings
attached, no purpose, and watchwhat shows up for them.
And there's always a naturalplace where people toggle
between, this is fun money.
Hooray.

(44:44):
I can do what I want with it to,oh my gosh, I have to be really
responsible or like adultingwith my money.
And so regardless of Enneagramtype, when I provide this
exercise to clients, there's aplace somewhere in the numbers
that changes from.
Responsibility to fund or viceversa.
And so fives, because they'removing between scarcity and I am
well resourced, or I ammastering money, I think this

(45:05):
shows up really nicely for themof like, huh, what's going on
there?
Are you aware of why that numberchanged for you?
Um, what it brought up for youof like scarcity versus
abundance or I have plenty ofmoney versus, Nope, there's
still not enough.
And so that's one exercise thatfits really well for that type.

Yeah.
I mean, that, that resonates forme too.
Um, the only thing I've seenwith fives is, the, the idea
that money's a social constructand so it's like meaningless and
they break it down intodisparate parts.
And you know, Hannah, like whatyou were, you were saying, it's
like, well, nobody actuallyneeds money because it's
actually all made up anyway.
Becomes

Hannah (45:41):
Yes.

like a real black hole.

Hannah (45:43):
Yes.

Yeah.
So sixes.

Hannah (45:47):
Sixes.
Yeah.
So yeah, this is one where Ithink sixes get really
stereotyped into, like money isjust anxiety.
Um, and I think it's, it's somuch more than that for sixes.
Um, I think they feel a greatresponsibility and a pressure,
um, when it comes to money, andobviously it is related to.
Security in our world.

(46:08):
Um, and so I think for them itcan be this means of, okay, if I
have enough, um, that I'll feelsecure.
I think a lot of sixes on apositive side are like, they're
thinking about the future andthey are thinking about
investments and things likethat.
Um, but it's hard or it'sdifficult for under earners
specifically.
Um, because.
They also are more likely tostay in a job if it is secure.

(46:31):
And so even though they're notmaking enough money, it's not
about the money that's givingthem security, it's the job
security.
And so then they end up settingthemselves up for, um.
Yeah, to not be as successfulfinancially, which can be really
difficult.
And then again, like I mentionedearlier, I think specifically
with the sexual subtype, um,they can be more risk-taking

(46:52):
when it comes to money.
Um, and so they might have aharder time saving and hanging
on to money.
They might be a little bit moreimpulsive with their decisions
about money versus the self prevery much the self pre and then
the social who are gonna be,wanna be really responsible, um,
or might, might even, um,hesitate to make purchases.

Khara (47:12):
Oh, I'm married to a self pre six, so every time Hannah
talks about sixes, I'm like,Ugh, this is my life.
Um, and so because we werefocused on under earners, of
course, if people work forsomeone else, this might show up
as like security and stabilityfrom like a 401k of like, oh,
that's being invested in, orthey're matching it.
So this is why I'm staying in ajob that I hate.

(47:32):
Which is my spouse.
Um, but if you work foryourself, the tool that we named
Four Sixes is a paid time offaccount, A PTO account of like,
Hey, if we all work forourselves, whether we're, um, a
therapist or somebody who's asmall business owner.
It feels kind of radical to belike, why didn't I think of this
sooner of, oh, I should paymyself to take time off so I
cannot burn out so I can have ahealthy work life balance so I

(47:54):
can feel secure of like if I gotsick for a month, I'm covered.
So for sixes, this really helpsthem feel safe of like, I have
this money set aside just incase something hits the fan,
whether it's me, my child,whoever is sick, that we can
somehow have money funneled backinto the account that's lost.
And so.
As a financial therapist andmental health therapist, this

(48:14):
was life changing for me.
I'm not a six, I'm obviously athree from our conversation, but
I think for anyone listening, apaid time off account is a big
deal if you work for yourself.
'cause it gives you that selfpermission to take time off for
lots of reasons I.

Yeah, absolutely.
That's such a good idea.
Um, and I, so I work a lot withcorporate and this is something
I see where I see a lot ofpeople who are high earners.
They have been promoted over andover and over, and a lot of the
time those people have movedcompanies a lot.
And I see a lot of sixes whojust, it's like kind of the old

(48:51):
way of working, right?
Where you get into a company andyou're in that company your
entire life and you get theretirement watch and then you go
off and you know, and, andthat's just not how it works
anymore.
You're not as rewarded for thequote unquote loyalty, but the
sixes are.
Very much like better the devil,you know, than the one you don't
concept.

(49:11):
Um, so I think that that willreally resonate with a lot of
sixes.
Okay, finally, last but notleast, sevens.

Hannah (49:17):
Yeah, sevens, um, so their belief with money is that
money can make you really happy,or like, when I spend money, I
can be really happy andexperience freedom with that.
Um, they, I.
I think are more inclined to seethe positive sides of money.
So they might not even recognizefrom the beginning that they,
that there is any sort of likefear or anxiety or any of that.

(49:38):
Maybe the self pre a little bitmore, um, with money, um, they
see money as a means toexperience more.
And I think that they can bevery, even though they're very
future thinking in a lot ofways, I think when it comes to
money, specifically the instantgratification or like the
immediate excitement and um, andfreedom that comes with making

(50:00):
money choices in the here andnow.
I.
Sometimes is more of a prioritythan thinking about the future
when it comes to money andsaving, um, and subtype
differentiator here.
I think with the self pre seven,they are gonna be a lot more
concerned about all of that.
I, it's, it's funny, one of myreally good friends is a self
pre seven and she, I've nevermet anybody who loves a, a deal

(50:23):
more than.
This person.
I mean, yeah, it's really fun totalk about.
Um, and so I think, I think theself pre is going to be more,
um, intentional and aware ofmoney purchases where maybe the
other two, um, yeah, just see itas a means to, to experience
more.
I.

Khara (50:41):
Mm-hmm.
So the tool for sevens givesthem a little bit more structure
with the assumption that themajority are struggling to see
the future or plan for thefuture.
That they'd much rather spendmoney in the here and now.
And so we call it the fill yourbucket funds.
And it comes from this valuesbased spending lens of like,
people spend money on what'simportant to them, which
Stephanie, you named earlier oflike, well, if it's important
then we're gonna buy it.

(51:02):
Um, and so it's a, it's aframework of.
And this is like the accountinglanguage, right?
But like you have your incomecoming in minus your expenses
and whatever's left over.
Do you then have the green lightto spend as you wish?
Right?
So the structure for a seven isI have to know what's coming in
and I have to know my expensesbefore I get the green light to
do anything with this extramoney.
If there's nothing left overmonth to month and we're not

(51:24):
spending that money'cause it'salready allocated for the things
that.
Aren't they exciting to a seven?
Um, so it gives people outsideof Enneagram sevens, it gives
people a framework in general,but I think for sevens, it
anchors them in a little bit,grounds them a little bit to be
like, do I even have money leftover to put towards something
that brings me joy?
And if not, are there other waysto have that, like dopamine hit,

(51:44):
if you will?
That's not spending, if there'snot money that month.

Yeah, that's so good and so helpful in
that discipline can be sochallenging because self-imposed
limitations are not fun.
But I've also seen so manysevens who like, they derive
their sense of freedom, and Ithink they're more so the self
pre sevens, but they derive asense of freedom from.
The nest egg, right?

(52:09):
So it's like in the here andnow, I'm just gonna pinch
pennies and, and maybe sometimesmore pinch, pennies for family,
more so than themselves perhaps.
Um, but so that they can spendlater.
Um, but they love to wheel anddeal.

Hannah (52:25):
Mm-hmm.

It's very interesting to go to a car
dealership with a self.
Press seven.

Hannah (52:32):
Yes.
It's so nice to have a friendwho's a self press seven.
'cause I, I mean, I love dealstoo, as a self press type, but
not to the extent that my frienddoes.
And so I'm always like, Hey, isthis a good price?
Or like on Facebook marketplace?
Well, what's a good price forthis?
And she's always right.
She's just, no one knows themarketplace better than this
girl.

Yep.
Yep.
So do you have any advice forpeople who are just beginning,
maybe they listen to all thatand they're like, wow.
I mean, that was a lot.
How do I even start with myrelationship with money?

Khara (53:02):
Yeah.
Hannah, you wanna go first?

Hannah (53:04):
Yeah, I mean my biggest piece of advice is just don't
avoid it.
I think a lot of us can be veryavoidant for whatever.
Obviously we've listed off a lotof reasons here, um, that people
might struggle with therelationship with money, but, I
always tell people in my therapyoffice, I want you to feel
uncomfortable, but I never wantyou to feel unsafe.
Um, and so this idea of gettingreally uncomfortable with your

(53:24):
relationship with money andknowing that that's leading you
towards growth, um, but if itfeels unsafe, bring someone else
in, get other resources.
There's a lot out there.
Um, so yeah, improve your ownrelationship with money before
you even try to improve it inyour marriage or in your
partnership or whatever.

Khara (53:40):
Yeah, I love that.
Like, doing yourself work first.
Um, I think to piggyback offwhat Hannah just said, of like
the resources, the one thing I'mcautioning everyone in my
financial therapy hat when I'mwearing that one, is.
Um, to avoid extremes when itcomes to save it all, spend it
all right, like neither of thoseextremes is healthy.
We want something in the middle.
And so when it comes to theresources being mindful or at

(54:02):
least curious of like where dothey stand?
If they're saying Only save onlysave only save.
It's probably not a resource iffinancial therapist is gonna
subscribe to, if I'm beinghonest.
'cause that's not how we show upin our work.
And so.
Because there are so manyinfluencers and financial
resources out there, I encourageany listeners to just like come
at them with curiosity of like,what agenda do they have?

(54:23):
What are they trying to sell youversus your own personal growth
of like choice in the matter.
If anyone's on the extreme ofspend or save, I would say
caution.
Caution on those ones.

Yeah, that's good advice.
The balance is so important.
Um, where can people connectwith you and find your book?

Khara (54:40):
Yeah, I mean it's, it's everywhere.
Books are sold as lots ofauthors like to say.
Um, of course we love reviews,so if people do get a chance to
check out the book and it wasmeaningful to them, we'd love to
see reviews on Good Reads orAmazon or any of those places.
Um, and then Hannah and I areboth on Instagram.
That's where we're tagging mostof our book stuff'cause we're on
a little book tour here inColorado right now at the time
of this recording.
So.

(55:00):
We'd love to meet people inperson sometime in the future if
they are happen to be in ourstate.
But if not, reach out.

Cool.

Hannah (55:07):
Yeah, and on Instagram, I'm at Method in Mind.
That's the name of my business.

Cool.
I will tag you both in the shownotes

Hannah (55:15):
Thank you.

Khara (55:16):
Thank

of course the book as well.
Um, I know a lot of people willbe really excited to read it
after listening to you talkabout it.
Um, I have two last questionsthat I ask everyone.
So the first is, tell me about abook that has really inspired,
shaped, or refreshed you in thelast year.

Hannah (55:35):
Yeah.
Um, I actually have a couple,it's hard to narrow down to one,
but first is, um, a book calledHabits of the Household by
Justin Whittell Early, um, andit's all about how like
spiritual disciplines can shapehow you parent, how, um, yeah,
just how you live your life.
I think the Enneagram is such agood example of.
We can do a lot withoutintention.

(55:56):
And so this book has just taughtme to be more intentional about
the way that I approach dinnerswith my family and, and things
like that.
Um, so it's been great.
And then my other one, this isso self pre, but there's a book
called What to Cook When YouDon't Feel Like Cooking by
Caroline Chambers.
And it has changed my cookinggame with my family just as,
yeah, my husband and I both havemultiple businesses and, um,

(56:17):
with a two and a 4-year-old,it's, it's just sometimes the
last thing that I'm thinkingabout.
So, um, for anybody who islooking for some inspiration in
that area, she is a busy mom andshe just gets it.

Cool.
Love that.

Khara (56:30):
Yeah, for me there's a book called Circle of Influence
that was really a powerful likeleadership business side of me
that was like, oh, I really likethis idea.
Um, his concept is like.
When you die, there'll be 80,000people in this metaphorical
arena.
What response do you want themto have as you walk into it?
Do you want them to be cheeringyou on going, oh my gosh, we
made such an impact, or do youwant them booing you from the

(56:51):
stadium?
So it makes me think of BreneBrown, of like who's in, who's
in the arena with you.
Um, but just really interestingframework there of like, we
don't really even realize howmuch we impact other people.
So of course as a social three,that gives me some comfort of
like, oh, what I'm doing makes adifference.
'cause I'm a three wing too, soI still have that therapist.
Uh, brain.
And so that's one of them.
But the one of course that yourEnnea, Enneagram enthusiast will

(57:13):
love is the path between us.
I got that for Christmas and Iwas like, this is amazing.
I feel like this is a roadmap toconnect with anyone on their
Enneagram type.
And it literally had like aplaybook in the end, at the end
of each chapter of like, ifyou're a three, this is what you
need.
If you are connected to a three,this is what they need.
And I thought that was justgenius how she set that up.

Yeah.
Cool.
Love it.
Okay, so two great books fromboth of you.
Um, finally tell me a piece ofadvice that has really stuck
with you.

Hannah (57:42):
Yeah.
Carrie, go first.

Khara (57:44):
Yeah, I mean, just from the burnout lens that I keep
talking about apparently today,that's on my mind.
Um, is the question, is thisbusyness or productivity?

Hmm,

Khara (57:53):
So obviously, um, depending on who's listening and
what shows up for them, somepeople are like, aren't they the
same?
And it's like, they're verydifferent for people who've done
that self work.
Of busyness is I'm just doing itto feel like I'm moving things
forward or moving the needle,whereas productivity is actual
evidence that this was movingthe needle.
Busyness leads to burnout.
Productivity does not, in myexperience, I.

Yeah.

Hannah (58:16):
Yeah.
And I had a professor in gradschool who, um, introduced this
concept of, what's yourreasonable best?
And I loved that so much, andI've kept it with me all of
these years of, um, you know.
With the, the capacity that youhave right now, the skillset
that you have, the experiencethat you have, how can you show
up in your reasonable best, notthe best that you think that you

(58:38):
should be?
Um, and so I think it's thisidea of just giving yourself
grace to, to show upauthentically, um, but still
show up with excellence.

Yeah, that's so good and so good for
threes because I think we have alot of ideas about our
unreasonable best, like in avacuum, in an ideal world, like,
you know, looking back on ourday, seeing all the
inefficiencies, so

Hannah (59:03):
Yeah.
Or even compared to last, tolike last year's capacity versus
like, okay, well now we're a momand we can't do some of those
things.
Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's a big one.
Okay, great.
This has been so great to chatwith both of you, and thank you
so much for bringing so muchinsight and, and practical words
for our listeners.
I am really excited to check outyour book.
Of

Hannah (59:29):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having us.

Steph Barron Hall (59:31):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway

(59:53):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.

(01:00:13):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify

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