August 21, 2025 • 56 mins
This week on Enneagram in Real Life, Stephanie Barron Hall interviews Hunter Mobley, Enneagram teacher, author, attorney, and former pastor. Mobley shares his journey with the Enneagram, which began organically through a friendship with Suzanne Stabile. He explains his approach to Enneagram work and spiritual growth, which he details in his new book, Letting Go, Finding You. He emphasizes the core belief that our truest selves and virtues are not something we need to "go get," but rather something that is already within us. Hunter shares some practices with us that we can apply in our daily lives. They discuss the idea that through the practices of contemplation, we can allow our true essence to re-emerge, leading to genuine transformation.
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Find the full show notes here: https://www.ninetypes.co/blog/hunter-mobley
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📷Hunter’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/enneagramhunter/
💻Hunter’s website: https://www.enneagramhunter.com/
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🎥 Stephanie’s Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@stephbarronhall
Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hunter Mobley (00:00):
when we talk about the Enneagram, it's like
(00:01):
nobody needs to go get anythingthat they don't have.
It's really a journey ofreturning to something that is
fundamentally truer.
the Enneagram tells us, justlike contemplative spirituality
tells us, it tells us that thetruer, deeper thing, the
immortal diamond, the virtueall, it was always there in you.
It just got covered andprotected by these layers.
(00:22):
And so our, our lifetime of workis really about.
Doing things and adoptingmentalities and postures that
allow the layers to fall away sothat the truer things can
actually reemerge, not thingsthat are outside of ourselves,
things that are actuallyfundamentally inside that we're
always there.
(00:47):
Hello and welcome to Enneagramin Real Life, the podcast where
we explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BarronHall, and on today's episode I
have a guest that you might haveheard on many other Enneagram
podcasts.
I am joined today by HunterMobley, who has a brand new book
(01:08):
coming out and has been featuredon various Enneagram podcasts,
especially those hosted bySuzanne Stabile.
So if you're into SuzanneStabiles work, then I'm sure
that you've heard of Hunterbefore.
Hunter Mobley is a giftedEnneagram teacher, author,
attorney, and former pastor whobrings deep insight and
compassion to his work.
(01:28):
He apprenticed under renownedEnneagram teacher, Suzanne
Stabile, and now teachesalongside her and her husband,
Joe Stabile at their teachingcenter in Dallas, Texas.
Based in Nashville, Tennessee,hunter combines his diverse
professional experience with aheartfelt approach to spiritual
growth.
In 2020, hunter authored 40 Dayson being a two part of the
(01:50):
Enneagram Daily Reflectionseries offering heartfelt
insights for those with a typetwo personality.
His upcoming book, letting Go,finding You Will Explore the
Enneagrams Transformative Power.
In helping individuals releaselimiting patterns and embrace
their true essence.
Hunter has taught Enneagramretreats, workshops, and events
(02:11):
in diverse settings, includingAmy Grant's Alaskan Cruise.
That one sounds interesting.
Belmont University, VanderbiltUniversity, denominational
headquarters, and churches andretreat centers nationwide and
he talks about the Enneagramwith such compassion and
expertise.
So we were able to explore somedifferent concepts that he
brought up in his book.
(02:32):
Um, especially we talked aboutthe, this concept of virtue and
vice and how For Hunter, hereally emphasizes making space
for the virtue rather thanworking on the vice or the
passion.
and I really liked that approachbecause it feels very
compassionate and positive.
So I asked him to share a littlebit about that.
And then we also talked aboutcontemplative practices in
(02:54):
general, kind of broad strokes.
And then he shared a practicefor everyone who is.
Not into contemplative work ofany sort, and where they can get
started.
So I really appreciated hisperspective, and I'm so grateful
that Hunter joined me for thisepisode.
If you'd like to learn more, youcan always find his info in this
show notes, but you can alsofind him on Instagram at
(03:16):
Enneagram Hunter.
online@enneagramhunter.com andhis new book, which I have, and
I have to say I've really beenenjoying, is out now and it's
called Letting Go, finding YouUncover Your Truest Self through
the Enneagram and Contemplation.
So make sure to check out thatbook wherever books are sold.
And I do wanna mention justbecause, you know, he is a
(03:37):
former pastor, but I found thebook to be really approachable,
uh, for various walks of lifeand spirituality backgrounds.
So if that interests you at all,I think this would be an
enlightening read.
So I hope you enjoy.
And without further ado, here'smy conversation with Hunter
Mobley.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:54):
Well, hunter, welcome to the podcast.
Hunter Mobley (03:56):
Thank you, Stephanie.
I'm so glad to be with you.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:59):
Yeah.
I'm excited to chat with youtoday about your new book, which
is called Letting Go FindingYou.
but before we get into any ofthat, I'd love to start with an
introduction, your background alittle bit, and how you found
the Enneagram.
I.
Hunter Mobley (04:11):
Yeah, so thank you.
I'm an Enneagram two, by theway.
That's my Enneagram number thatwe'll talk about some.
But I'm based out of Nashville,Tennessee.
Grew up in Nashville, live herenow.
And, um.
My background has been sort ofeclectic in terms of vocation,
but I've had the opportunity, I.
Opportunity to be an attorney,to be a pastor of a church.
(04:33):
Um, and now I get to travel thecountry and teach and speak
about the Enneagram, write aboutthe Enneagram.
And then when I'm not doingthat, um, I, I do some culture
work at a trust company inNashville.
So kind of.
Have had some eclecticopportunities.
It, it all sort of comes back toI'm a people person and, um, I
(04:54):
love working with people.
I love making relationship and,uh, shepherding teams and
thinking about culture.
You know, my journey to theEnneagram is sort of perfect for
my number because the Enneagramfor me began in a friendship.
Um, I.
Had never heard the word before.
I was familiar, probably like alot of us, with some of the
(05:16):
other personality tools in theorbit.
And I'd, I'd used some of themand enjoyed some of them,
Myers-Brigg and StrengthFinder,and, you know, I'd figured out I
was a golden retriever.
All the ones that we, that weuse and they're all, they're all
useful, but.
Never heard about the Enneagram,and I was in Boca Grande,
Florida at a dinner party at aretreat the final night of a
(05:38):
retreat with some friends aroundthe table, and I just happened
to be seated at a table next toSuzanne and Joe Bil.
We didn't know each other.
I didn't know who they were.
They didn't know who I was.
We didn't really.
Pick to have those be our seats.
And so Suzanne and I are sittingnext to each other.
Turns out we're both Enneagramtwos.
(05:58):
You know, I find out what thatmeans later.
And so as Enneagram twos, wejust kind of fell into our
natural pattern of making afriend, you know, who are you?
Who are you?
Well, where do you live?
Where do you live?
What do you do with your, and sothat dinner, because of
Suzanne's work with theEnneagram, um, I heard that word
for the first time.
(06:20):
And it just so happened that shewas gonna be in Nashville two
weeks later.
Um, she was coming to Nashvilleto speak to a church staff, um,
just to do kind of a teambuilding event with them.
And so she said, well, I'm gonnabe in Nashville in two weeks.
And I said, where are you gonnabe?
And she told me the church name.
And I said, well, that pastor isone of my best friends.
(06:41):
I'm gonna text him right now andjust see if I can sit.
In the back of the room and, youknow, kind of interope on their
church staff retreat day.
And he said yes.
And, um, I went and, and thatwas where I was first introduced
to the nine numbers, but itreally, a friendship began with
Suzanne that evening.
(07:01):
And, um, we just enjoyed oneanother and connected.
And it was that friendship thatultimately led to me really
looking deeper into this tool.
And so, uh, little.
Did I know where it would takeme and that I would be doing
work alongside of her and, andspending so much time traveling
and speaking about the tool.
(07:21):
But it kind of is just now makesall kind of sense in the world
to me and, and makes me sort oflaugh that, uh, it came out of a
friendship and uh, that's how somany things come for me is in
Enneagram two.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:36):
Yes, for sure.
Now, at that first dinnermeeting, did you guys talk about
the Enneagram?
Was Suzanne like, oh, you're atwo,
Hunter Mobley (07:44):
No, no, we really, we didn't talk about it
except just to her to give methe.
32nd version of what it is, asshe was kind of telling me about
her work and what she does and,uh, just as we were meeting each
other and talk, you know, I wasa pastor at the time and she was
a speaker, so, um, she told mekind of what the system was from
(08:06):
a high level view, but I didn'tknow anything about the numbers.
Certainly didn't identify mynumber at that dinner.
So it really just began very,very organically and very slowly
out of that relationship.
Stephanie Barron Hall (08:18):
Yeah, I'm sure you get this question all
the time.
Um, but I get it a lot, which isif you sat down and.
To somebody at a dinner party,would you, you know, be able to
pinpoint their number?
And, you know, first of all, Idon't know how you respond to
that, but I'm like, well, I'mnot really there to do that.
So, like, I'm not thinking aboutthat unless they're like an 8,
8, 8 or like a real big seven.
(08:39):
You know, I'm not, I'm notsitting there thinking about
that.
Hunter Mobley (08:42):
Absolutely.
You know, I, I'm, I so resonatewith that, Stephanie.
People do ask me that a lot, youknow, well, because this is
something that you do, do you,you know, everybody that you
meet, is it just so clear toyou?
And the honest truth is, and I Iimagine you'll probably resonate
with this as well, the, thedeeper you go into this type of
work, um, the deeper you go onthe Enneagram, the more you know
(09:05):
about it, the less.
Likely.
I would ever feel like I couldjust sit across the table from
someone and type them, becauseyou know the numbers.
When you do this work in areally rich, robust, and deep
way, you realize how big thesenumbers are and how complex the
system is and how.
(09:27):
Complex people are, and itbecomes less of just sort of a
quick way that you cancaricature yourself or somebody
else.
And it's really something that'svery layered and textured and
complex.
So I know sometimes people thinkthat I'm not being honest with
them with it.
I say, no.
Gosh, honestly, I'm really notthinking about what number
someone else is unless they justwant to talk to me about that or
(09:50):
tell me that, or explore thatwith me.
Uh, but it, it, it doesn't, itdoesn't cross my mind most of
the time.
Stephanie Barron Hall (09:57):
Yeah.
And I think the more people youreally talk to on a deeper level
about it, you know, like you'resaying, you know so much and
there are so many nuances.
So even watching a TV show, one,I'm not thinking about it, but
two, I'm like, but there's somuch more to that character that
we don't know.
So like how could you possiblyknow their type?
And sometimes on social media,people are like, no, this person
(10:17):
is definitely of this type.
And I'm like, I.
Hunter Mobley (10:21):
I know, I don't know.
I, you know, and, and in someways you, you might be like me.
It's like some of that I'velearned the hard way where I've
just felt so certain.
That I, I, I, you know, knewwhat number somebody was.
And then I really have theopportunity to get under the
hood and get to know them andwhat motivates them.
And I, I understand some of theother layers to their onion,
(10:42):
maybe trauma, pain, loss, grief,background that they're dealing
with.
And all of a sudden I think, ohmy goodness, I've got a.
I've gotta be careful.
You know, I, I, that was justthe tip of the iceberg of what
there was to know about them.
And, um, so we, we learned thathopefully on the wisdom path.
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:01):
Yeah.
So then when you encountered,you know, this is, you know, all
nine types, Suzanne'spresenting, were there any other
types that really resonated orstood out for you?
I.
Hunter Mobley (11:13):
Um, there were, you know, I, I did walk away
from that.
It was sort of a know yournumber experience that she was
leading from that church staff.
And I did walk away knowing thatI was a two.
But, um, and, you know, people'sjourneys are so different.
I always encourage people to,you know, don't be discouraged
if it takes you years.
I know some people that.
(11:33):
Travel the world and make aliving teaching the Enneagram.
And it took them kind of someyears to discern between a
couple of numbers.
So everybody's journey is reallydifferent and unique.
But, um, there were, the othertwo numbers, Stephanie, that I,
I did sort of have to wrestlewith were nine and four.
Um, and, and those were numbersthat I think are not uncommon
(11:54):
for twos sometimes to those tobe two others that sort of crop
up and you just have to kindatake a deeper look at them.
But two really emerged, um,quickly for me.
Uh, I think, you know, nine isso.
Similar in so many ways to twoin, in terms of our kind of
(12:14):
deferential posture to otherpeople and to life.
So I think when I was hearingsome of the ways that nines can
sort of make themselves small tomake other people feel good, um,
you know, I, I had someresonance with that and I had to
learn deeper about what reallynine was and understand that.
Their way of seeing and beingmotivated didn't speak as
(12:36):
directly to me.
And then four, you know, twosare connected to four with a
line in movement and we movetoward four when we are in more
of a secure integration place.
And um, it's funny as a.
I think just as a, you know,some of this is not connected to
my personality, but justconnected to, you know, I've
(12:57):
always enjoyed art and music andI grew up in a, uh, you know,
sort of artistic culture andfamily, and so I think I kind of
always like, wanted to be afour.
So I really, I love fours.
I kind of, I, I sort of jokewith friends in my life.
I collect fours in my life, but,um, those were the other two
numbers for me that I had to,had to think about.
(13:19):
In a deep way to reallyunderstand which was gonna be
the number that spoke the mostto me.
Stephanie Barron Hall (13:24):
Yeah.
What were the points of clarityfor you that you were like, oh,
I'm definitely a two?
Because this I think is tricky,especially the two nine
comparison.
And I know I've heard you andJoe Stale talk about that'cause
he's a nine.
Um, but even the two and fourcomparison, I've seen that a few
times.
Um, what were the points thatmade you be like, oh no, I
actually lead with two.
Hunter Mobley (13:46):
Well, I'll tell you between two and nine, the
biggest point of clarity to mebetween those two numbers for
me, and I think when I teach nowtoo, this is kind of how I talk
about those two numbers as beingdifferent is, um, both twos and
nines will.
In some ways look similar intheir deferential posture like I
was describing.
(14:06):
So both twos and nines arelikely to say, you know, Hey
Stephanie, I, you know, we don'thave to do what I want to do.
Let you know.
What are you interested in?
Let's go with that.
What would you like to do today?
And so that looks reallysimilar.
The difference though, is ninesare doing that honestly because
they're not sure that theirpresence makes a big enough
(14:27):
difference to really.
M make their own agenda knownand expect that it would be
honored and received.
Whereas twos, if I'm reallyhonest with myself, the reason
why I adopt a deferentialposture with a lot of people is
because I, it's sort of astrategy to earn place in that
(14:49):
person's life.
And so it's like the subtledifferences, you know, whereas
nines.
Many times think, I'm not surehow much my presence makes a
difference in this relationship.
Twos we're real, real, real surethat we're not sure how you
could do without us, you know,and so there's, there's almost
this fun.
(15:09):
Even though it looks similar,there's a fundamental difference
between twos and nines in thatI, I am sure.
Of the difference I can make nowthat in your life.
Now that doesn't always meanthat I'm sure of my place in
your life and I may be trying todo things to still earn
appreciation or earn place, butI am sure that if you will just
(15:30):
let me in, I can really make abig impact or a difference.
And nines don't see that sameway.
Um, you know, and the four, thefour difference for me really
is, um.
You know, fours, one of theirgifts.
This is one of the beautifulgreat things about fours that I
(15:52):
aspire to as a two, and that I,I learn from and that I try to
go pick up through that linethat connects me to four is
fours at the beautiful core arejust people of authenticity that
are a little bit like.
Take it or leave it.
Like it or not, this is kind ofwho I am, you know, and, and
sometimes it's, they think, youknow, dang, I wish I, it'd be
(16:14):
great if I could sort of justturn down some of this and just
be a little bit more like whateverybody else thinks I should
be or expects.
And as you know, twos, twos are.
A little bit more susceptible tokind of lean over into that
three space and sort of adaptand morph and change and, you
(16:35):
know, contextualize a little bitto kind of be what, what's
needed to be to sort of earnplace and earn, relationship
and, um.
You know, that's just, that's alittle subtle difference.
but it's, it's an importantdifference and it's something
that I can recognize in myselfand recognize often in speaking
to twos and fours.
Stephanie Barron Hall (16:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, um, you know, twosand threes do so much shape
shifting.
I'm type three.
I dunno if, um, you knew
Hunter Mobley (17:04):
We're all kind of right there together.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:05):
Yeah.
And so we do so much shapeshifting and I think I've seen
fours do it for sure.
And um, but they hate it
Hunter Mobley (17:14):
They hate it
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:15):
they know they're doing it.
Hunter Mobley (17:16):
they do.
They hate it.
And, and to be honest, and thisis really a compliment to them,
they're not as good at it.
As twos and threes are, youknow, and that's a compliment
really to fours, you know, it'sthey, they pick it up and they
try it on a little bit, butbecause of that core commitment
to inner knowing and authenticliving, that's a beautiful gift
(17:37):
of fours.
They're just not quite as goodat it and they kind of hate it.
And so they don't do it quite aslong or as deep or as wide as
sometimes twos and threes pickthat up to do.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:49):
Yeah.
Which we are like, here's mytailor made personality just for
you.
Hunter Mobley (17:54):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:56):
Yeah.
so.
I had a friend a few years agomake a joke that types one, two,
and three are the strivers,right?
Like the, the types that, and Ido think that there's truth to
that ones, twos and threes takeon so much extra responsibility
that's like beyond what shouldbe in their scope, right?
And like Suzanne always says islike a big thing for twos is
(18:16):
knowing what's mine to do andwhat isn't.
And I think ones and threes alsohave a hard time with that.
Um.
And so I noticed this theme inyour book that's all about this
concept of cease striving.
And I remember, you know, I wasraised in a similar background
and you know, went to, I got mylittle biblical studies minor,
Hunter Mobley (18:40):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (18:40):
when I was an undergrad.
Um, and I remember that conceptcoming up so much and.
even like you were saying, kindof connecting with it, right?
Connecting with the, the idea,but having no idea for myself
what that actually meant.
And I'm wondering if you couldtell me more about what that
hits on for you and how it kindof became linked to this whole
(19:02):
concept of, of letting go andfinding yourself.
Hunter Mobley (19:05):
Yeah, I, Stephanie, I, I do, uh, that's
been such an important part ofmy journey, you know, I sounds
like similar to you.
You know, I grew up like many ofus in a conservative, Christian
evangelical, uh, culture anddynamic and, um.
In that and, you know, in theAmerican South, which is kind of
(19:27):
the headquarters of all that.
So it was sort of that onsteroids and I figured out how
to do it well and, and it meanta lot to me.
And, and you know, God bless thebroken road, it taught me a lot
and I'm so grateful for all thepieces of the story and all the
pieces of the background.
But one of the.
The impulses that it really ledme to adapt, adopt in my own
(19:49):
spiritual journey was this ideathat, hey, we gotta take the
hill and we gotta do big thingsfor God.
You know, that sort of theunderlying message was, it's
gonna be hard, you're gonna haveto work hard.
It's gonna be tough.
Culture's gonna be against you,but you gotta climb the hill.
And if you climb and you fightand you work and you.
Get there, you know, and, and soin, in my own spiritual kind of
(20:13):
understanding, there wasembedded this idea that, you
know, man, it's gonna be reallyhard and it's gonna be tough,
but God expects big things fromme.
And so that whole mindset ofspirituality is really all about
striving.
And unfortunately, it's allabout ego because at the end of
the day.
The, it's based on this ideathat, um, I can figure out and I
(20:38):
can do what God wants me to do,and I can do it well enough that
it will make a big change andplease God and make an impact
and along the way.
We all do some really wonderfulthings and some people are
helped and we have some greatexperiences and everything
(20:59):
contains its opposite andthere's some good results from
all that, and it doesn't do muchfor our souls.
What it does as it builds ouregos and our personalities,
because we are still in controlof our spiritual journeys, we
are still in control of, in manyways our relationship for God
and, and I.
(21:19):
I had to, I, I had to unlearnthat.
And, um, you know, frankly,like, like a lot of unlearning,
the only reason why you unlearnit is because it stops working
for you in the same ways that itused to.
And, um, I just, I.
Wasn't having the, the successof, you know, overcoming all the
(21:40):
things I wanted to overcome.
And, and, and I had to startkind of asking myself some tough
questions about, you know, what,what is this about?
Is this really what thespiritual life is about?
Are there other ways ofapproaching spirituality?
And, and through those kind of.
Seasons of questioning and somedeconstructing that was
happening in my own theology andmy own life.
(22:02):
I was introduced to the languageand the posture of contemplation
as a, as a very differentapproach to a spiritual journey.
And it was, it was like thething that was missing.
You know, it's similar to theEnneagram.
Once I was introduced to it, um,it just, it, it just clicked.
(22:24):
It just, it was true to me.
I didn't need, uh, I didn't needto be convinced really, of the
Enneagram.
I didn't need to be convinced ofcontemplation.
It was just when I wasintroduced to those two tools,
those two spiritual wisdomtraditions, they just resonated
in my inner knower as true.
And it's something that Ineeded.
And so as I then began to swimdeeper in the waters of learning
(22:49):
about contemplative spiritualityand contemplation, um, what I
came to see is, oh my goodness,this is actually kind of the
paradox of I.
The active spirituality, theTake the Hill spirituality.
In the book, I call it, youknow, five step Spirituality.
You know, what are the fivesteps?
Let's figure'em out.
Let's do'em really right?
And let's get'em done today.
(23:09):
Uh, contemplation is really theopposite posture of that in so
many ways.
It's about letting go, nottaking on, it's about
subtracting, not adding.
It's about emptying our minds sothat the presence of the holy
can.
Phil versus us going and gettingsomething and doing something
(23:31):
for God.
It's about seeing that God'swork is happening all around us
and, and it's unseen and, andyou know, we're not driving it
and we're not controlling it.
So, um.
Yeah, and then as I started tolearn more about contemplative
spirituality and adopting aspiritual posture of letting go,
I started to see the way inwhich the Enneagram is inviting
(23:52):
us to the same thing.
It's inviting us to let go offalse self and ego and
personality.
Not because they're bad, notbecause they won't help us, not
because we don't ever need them,but because they become so, so
strongly.
Dripped that they actually keepus from getting to some of the
(24:13):
truer, deeper things of thesoul.
So the Enneagram, I realized isinviting us to let go so that
the truer thing can be revealed.
Contemplative spirituality isreally about allowing us,
inviting us to let go so thatdeeper, truer things can be
revealed.
And as I saw those two systems.
(24:34):
Really speaking the samelanguage.
Then I became fascinated withlearning how are these two
systems not just parallel tracksthat are speaking similar
language, but how are theyactually interwoven and
interdependent?
And that's what I became reallyconvinced of.
That's what, in a way, the bookis really about.
I, I'm now Stephanie kind of a.
(24:55):
A believer that I don't thinkyou can really do the deep
transformative work that theEnneagram invites you into
without something that lookslike a contemplative way of
living.
Now, you don't have to have thewords.
You don't have to.
Plenty of people find their wayto health and wisdom without the
(25:16):
words of the Enneagram or thewords of contemplative
spirituality, and it's not evenabout one.
Theology or one belief system inthe holy, but it's the posture
that contemplation invites us toof opening up and letting go
that is rooted and connected tothe transformation that can
(25:37):
happen of moving frompersonality back to true self.
Stephanie Barron Hall (25:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it, it's interesting that yousay that because I very much
take a non-spiritual approach tothe Enneagram in the sense that
I don't, Have any specific, likereligious bent to it and, and
really like, I just wrote thisbook that's like Enneagram in
real life, all these practices,but I actually totally agree
with you because realisticallyall of the practices that are
(26:03):
gonna actually move the needleare things where it's learning
how to not look through apinhole.
It's like having a wide anglelens on what are the options and
what are the choices and likelet's observe ourselves and, and
so like I think by definitionthat there are so many
contemplative.
Ways to go about it that aren'tspecifically in like, like what
you're saying.
They're not in a specificreligious tradition, but offer
(26:26):
us the perspective that we needthat because the Enneagram, our
types we're so stuck in ourperspective.
Hunter Mobley (26:34):
Yes, we are, we are, we're so stuck in our way
of seeing and, and so when wethink about, well, how am I
gonna get unstuck in my way ofseeing it can't be just another.
Picking up of some other set oftools or tricks or tips or five
steps, it's gotta be something,a whole different posture.
(26:56):
It's gotta be, whoa, how, how doI, how do I open up?
How do I let go?
How do I, how do I kind of have.
The layers lifted off so that Ican, the Enneagram tells us,
just like contemplativespirituality tells us, it tells
us that the truer, deeper thing,the immortal diamond, the virtue
all, it was always there in you.
It just got covered andprotected by these layers.
(27:18):
And so our, our lifetime of workis really about.
Doing things and adoptingmentalities and postures that
allow the layers to fall away sothat the truer things can
actually reemerge, not thingsthat are outside of ourselves,
things that are actuallyfundamentally inside that we're
always there.
(27:38):
That's what's exciting.
You know, we, when we talk aboutthe Enneagram, it's like nobody
needs to go get anything thatthey don't have.
It's really a journey ofreturning to something that is
fundamentally truer.
And, um, that's what's so, socompelling about it to me.
Stephanie Barron Hall (27:56):
Yeah, and I think that's why for me, in
this process, it's been soimportant and like has walked
hand in hand with some of my owndeconstruction process because I
had to.
Walk away from the doctrine oftotal depravity that I was
taught is like the only way.
And if, if I believe that we allhave this essence, then it's
like, well, that doesn'tactually fit with the total
Hunter Mobley (28:17):
No.
No.
Stephanie Barron Hall (28:19):
so I'd love to talk about that a little
bit more because, you know, youhighlight that there is an
overfocus on the passions,right?
rather than the virtues.
And so it sounds like.
Kind of, you're thinking of itthe opposite way.
Not we're chipping away thepassion, but we're making more
space for the virtue.
And by by nature, the passionkind of falls away.
(28:40):
And I'm wondering if you canwalk us through what that could
look like.
Like if you have stories orexamples of what that could look
like for the types I.
Hunter Mobley (28:47):
Well, I, yes.
Let's talk through each of thetypes and, and I'll just say in
kind of general, just affirmingwhat you're describing.
We, when we first come to knowour Enneagram number, usually we
do encounter the passion forthat number.
That's one of the first thingswe hear.
That's one of the first thingswe can hook into, and that's,
it's a helpful way to be able toname and.
(29:09):
Describe the language ofpersonality and our Enneagram
number, and a lot of it's justconnected to our way of being
human.
You know, Suzanne SBI says allthe time that we know ourselves
more by what we get wrong than,but what we get.
Right?
And so that's why if, if I wasto go lead a Know Your Number
seminar and talk about all ofthe virtues instead of the
(29:29):
passions, everyone would loveit, but no one would figure out
what number they were.
So, so there is an overemphasison the passion, but.
The, the virtue is the truerthing, and here's how I
discovered this, and, and thiswill tie into each of these
numbers when you look at thepassion and the virtue for each
number, I.
Okay, so let's look at ones.
(29:50):
Anger is the passion.
Serenity is the virtue.
Okay.
Anger, serenity.
Hmm.
What do those have to do witheach other?
Well, let's look at twos.
Humility is the passion, orsorry.
Pride is the passion.
Humility is the virtue.
Hmm.
Humility and pride.
Well, you start to notice, wewill go through all the numbers.
Deceit for threes is thepassion.
(30:10):
Truthfulness is the virtue.
They're opposites.
They're opposites, right?
Deceit, truthfulness, pride,humility, anger, serenity, and
we'll go on and on.
You know, fours have some kindof funky words, envy and
equanimity, but, but if weunpack what those words really
(30:31):
mean and what they look likefrom an Enneagram perspective,
we can see them as opposites.
If we just see that, that thepassion and the virtues are
opposites.
Then what we all of a sudden areled to see is, whoa, okay, if
the virtue is tied to true self,the truer thing and the passion
is tied to false self, the theless true thing, and those two
(30:56):
things are opposite to oneanother.
What I'm learning now is thatwho I am at my core, in my inner
being, is actually the oppositeof what my Enneagram number
describes and.
That is weird and strange andencouraging and inspiring.
(31:20):
Because it means that's thefundamental answer to, you know,
well, all you're trying to do isjust kind of put me in a box and
limit me.
No, actually, what I'm gonnatell you is the way that you
come to know yourself and havebeen described and would be
described by others about yourpersonality is the 180 degree
(31:40):
turn from who you really are.
And so again, anger and serenityfor ones.
Pride and hu, and humility fortwos, dece and truthfulness for
threes, equanimity and in andenvy for fours, greed and
non-attachment for fives, fearand courage for sixes, sevens,
(32:01):
gluttony and sobriety.
Those are easy to see asopposites, eights, lust, and
innocence.
And then finally, nines withsloth.
And action.
And.
Each of those differences, thoseopposite turnings, that the
passion and the virtue give usare the first invitation into
the good news of the mystery ofthe Enneagram, which is there is
(32:22):
something that's a part of yourinner essence and your soul and
your true self that isfundamentally different and
opposite from what yourpersonality bears out now.
Then we each have a journey of,well, how do we get there?
And, and the journey ismultifaceted.
Um, there are lots of pathwaysfor how do we go from.
(32:44):
Really the journey in life is,you know, virtue to passion,
hopefully back to virtue, youknow, so, but a lot of us, you
know, we see passion, we see ourpersonality, we see our
Enneagram numbers.
So our, our question is how dowe go from passion back to
virtue?
And that word back is importantbecause again, it's something
that's already there.
It's not something you've gottago find and get and grab.
(33:05):
It's something you've got torediscover and.
Stephanie, I think there are alot of ways we could talk about
many, many pathways.
One of the entry points that Ithink is particularly helpful is
really about findingcontemplative practices that
(33:27):
speak to the repressed center ofintelligence for each number.
So.
When we talk about the numbers,sometimes we group them in these
stands groupings of we say onesand twos and sixes have a lot of
things in common, and then wesay threes and sevens and eights
have a lot of things in common,and fours and fives and nines
have a lot of things in common.
(33:47):
There's other ways we can groupthe numbers, but this is one way
and.
The fundamental thing that thosethree groupings have in common
is which of thinking, feeling,or doing lives in the basement
and is underrepresented.
So for ones and twos and sixes,it's thinking.
So that means when I'm talkingto ones and twos and sixes about
(34:08):
this journey from.
Passion back to virtue.
I'm saying you have got tochallenge your thought life.
You have got to bring upthinking, you have got to
confront the.
Traditional ways that you havethought and, and ordered your
thinking around, that's, that'sone of the royal pathways back
(34:33):
to your virtue.
And so as you can think aboutways of living or contemplative
practices that really address.
The mind and address thinkingand shift thinking, then that
may be one of the greatestopenings for you.
Ones, twos and sixes toward thelife of virtue.
(34:55):
Back from passion.
Well, for threes and sevens andeights, it's feeling lives in
the basement.
So I talked to threes and sevensand eights about finding
practices, finding habits,finding disciplines, finding
ways of, of being that reallyhook into.
Feeling soft, tender, layered,very textured feeling, not just
passion, not just good things,not just intensity.
(35:17):
All the feeling spectrum.
And that's one of the ways thatthey can find their way back to
virtue and fours and fives andnines.
It's, it's the action center,it's the body it's doing.
And so really when Ispecifically, when I talk about
contemplative practices forfours and fives and nines, I say
fours and fives and nines.
(35:37):
Go pick up contemplativepractices that actually bring
your body into motion and intoaction.
Bring your body into theequation.
Go, walk, labyrinth, go.
You know, go do some breathwork.
Do something that reengagesyour.
Action center and your bodycenter.
That's just one way of thinkingabout, well, how might each
(36:01):
number approach the journey frompassion back to virtue?
There are so many ways, um, but,but really looking at those
centers of intelligence is, isone, one Good way.
And.
Ultimately the reason why I keeptalking about contemplative
practices, it's not, like yousaid, it's not even so much
(36:23):
about one or two specificspiritual modalities or
practices that I'm, I'm callingpeople to, I'm inviting people
to think about a posture that ismore about letting go and less
about taking on, and that's whatI mean when I talk about
contemplation and, and whateverwe.
Do in our Enneagram work andtransformative journey, if it's
(36:46):
going to be about releasing egoand releasing passion, it can't
be about taking on.
It can't be about doing thething.
It's gotta be about undoing andletting go and subtracting, and
that's where we're gonna findvirtue, reemerging, and showing
up again.
Stephanie Barron Hall (37:03):
Yeah.
and I think when I think ofthose, you know, when I think
about like the one for one SusanSixes, I'm like, well, that
seems easy.
But then I have to remember likethe pressure that I feel when
I'm like, I want to avoidemotions coming up right now.
That's the pressure that theyfeel in those moments too.
where they're being challenged.
Hunter Mobley (37:23):
Because ones and twos and sixes, you know, we're
thinking all the time.
It's just the problem is whatare we thinking about?
You know, ones are oftenspending so much time in
self-critical thinking orthinking about what could be
done differently or better.
And twos, I mean, we're justlost in thoughts about
relationships that often aren'ttrue.
Sixes are lost in thinking aboutplans and contingencies and, and
(37:46):
things that could go wrong.
And so the, the challenge is.
Is saying, okay, well can wechallenge those traditional ways
of thinking?
It's kind of similar sometimesfor threes and sevens and eights
where feeling it's like theyfeel you feel as a 3, 7, 8 all
the time.
It's just that are there, arethere pieces of the feeling
spectrum that areunderrepresented that sort of
(38:10):
get ignored and left out?
What if we could go pick thoseup too?
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:13):
Mm-hmm.
Hunter Mobley (38:14):
You know, and fours and fives and nines.
I mean, they're all, they'rebusy people doing life just like
the rest of us.
But the question is, are theydoing the things that really are
the most important and criticalthings for them to do, or are
they doing in more of adistracted way that actually.
Gives them permission to not getto the things that, that really,
(38:37):
they, they know they ought toget to.
Um, but just being busy kind ofmakes them feel like, well, you
know, I'm busy.
I, I'll, I'll get to that later.
So that's the invitation reallywith those underrepresented
centers is thinking about howcan I pick up a different
approach to that center or adifferent way of interacting
(39:00):
with that center I.
Stephanie Barron Hall (39:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um.
One of the things that I reallyliked, and I think everyone
should, I mean, I, I enjoyedreading your book, like the, the
front matter is very much likeyour story and like your
history, which I, I enjoyedbecause I always liked those
parts of books.
People skipped straight to theEnneagram part.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like we could get to that.
(39:21):
Let's talk about the person.
Um, but you talked about theseways, like these different
examples of how, um, like a onewho was a parent was like.
Found a little spot of Serenityright in her day.
And it made me think of justbecause of, of this avenue that
(39:42):
we're, we're discussing this in,um, I was speaking with somebody
who's a self-preservation five.
So she's very much likenaturally well like.
Personality says, disengage fromthe body, right?
Disengage from the physicalworld.
And she told me about how from ayoung age, she started horseback
(40:04):
riding and it required her to bevery in tune with her body
because her horse was gettingall sorts of signals.
She's like, what are you doing?
Why are you doing these crazythings?
I didn't tell you to do that.
But what she had to no notice islike, oh, my body is telling the
horse to do something differentthan what.
I am saying, like my brain istrying to
Hunter Mobley (40:25):
Yes,
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:26):
So I think that's like such a good
example of like one way that's,it is a no sense contemplative,
right?
It's self observation.
It's like, but it's, you know,not sitting on the, sitting down
and like meditating or somethinglike that.
Hunter Mobley (40:41):
Exactly.
No, you're so right.
I mean, gosh, they're probably,I can hardly think of a better
practice for a five maybe than,than horseback riding, you know?
And that's what, um, I wantpeople through this book, two,
to see contemplativespirituality and contemplative
practice as something biggerthan just silence and solitude.
It there.
(41:02):
There are principles of silenceand solitude and stillness in
contemplation, and those can bewonderful practices.
But, um, I know people who,their contemplative practice is
working a jigsaw puzzle.
It, it's, it's a way of pullingsomething apart and putting
something together and there'sintention behind it and it's,
(41:23):
it's.
It's doing, it's it.
They're, they're putting theirhands to the plow, to something,
you know, and with the rightintention, to the right spirit.
That can be a contemplativepractice.
Horseback riding can be thisbeautiful contemplative practice
when we engage with someintention to let go, to learn
something new to.
(41:43):
Challenge our traditional waysof seeing to be open to surprise
and surrender.
That's a fundamentallycontemplative posture.
And, um, so many things likeyou're describing can, can fit
the bill for that beyond justsometimes what we picture as
maybe sitting silently in achair and meditating or engaging
(42:06):
in stillness or centeringprayer.
Those all belong too.
But it's, it's bigger than justthat I.
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I wonder how you wouldcounsel somebody who's brand new
to this and they're justbeginning, you know, their
spiritual journey, specificallyusing the Enneagram and in
contemplative practices.
Where do they start?
Hunter Mobley (42:29):
They start that.
I love that question.
Gosh, what I would encouragesomeone who is saying, you know,
I'm interested in the Enneagramand I'm interested in this idea
or posture of contemplation,where do I begin?
Um, I would say begin with apractice that we, in spiritual
circles call centering prayer.
(42:51):
Centering prayer and, and again,you can have all types of
theology and spiritualbackground and find your pathway
to hook into this, but centeringprayer is about sitting down for
20 minutes and setting anintention.
And the intention is simply tobe open to the presence and
(43:11):
activity of the holy that isunseen.
That's not about your presenceand your activity, but the
unseen presence and activity ofthe holy and letting go of
thoughts for 20 minutes and.
What that rewiring will do aftera prolonged period of, of daily
(43:32):
practice is it will teach youabout places you can go in your
body that are freed fromtraditional thinking and are
more spacious and roomy than ourclutter of mind.
That is usually where we live,and it will show you some deeper
(43:52):
places you can go in your bodyand, um.
That's the beginning.
That's the beginning.
Now then there are unlimitedcontemplative rhythms or
practices to pick up or try on.
But when you adopt somethingthat looks, which really is
centering prayer, is justfundamentally meditation with
some type of intention behindit.
(44:14):
so once you, once you practiceand adopt that way of sitting
and letting go of thoughts.
Engaging with more innerspaciousness than you previously
knew existed in your body andyour heart and your mind, then
that's where now all of a suddenanything can become
(44:37):
contemplative of you riding thehorse, working the jigsaw
puzzle, you know, walking downthe street because now you have
this new place that you know howto get to in your soul.
And, um, you practice that inmany ways through centering
prayer.
So that's, that's where I wouldencourage people to start.
And there's, there's so muchthat you can do, um, and go get,
(45:00):
if you are a spiritual person,you can find all sorts of things
about centering prayer and, andlearn that if.
If the idea of spirituality justis a bridge too far for someone,
then you go pick up a meditationpractice that is really armed to
engage you with the same innerspaciousness.
(45:22):
And um, that's the startingplace I would say.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:26):
Yeah.
It's such a good one and, and Ithink.
So many of these practices thatare so helpful are the ones that
are like simple
Hunter Mobley (45:36):
Yeah, I'd say they're simple.
They're not easy.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think even as a three,like once I started becoming
more committed to meditation,and for a while, I'll be honest,
I've been out of the practicefor a while, but when I was
doing it regularly, I did seesuch a massive difference I
think.
That feels like totally oppositeto type three in a lot of ways,
(46:00):
but I hear from a lot of fivesthat their brains can just not
settle down for that.
And do you have any specialguidance for, you know, those
mind types like 5, 6, 7, whohave a really hard time with
Hunter Mobley (46:14):
Oh yeah.
Whoever really had a hard timekind of engaging.
Yes.
You know?
Um.
It is hard for all of us, butyou're right, it the to settle
down thoughts and kind ofrelease our just inner reliance
on thinking and all the innerconflict that's always going on,
(46:35):
you know, in our head and in ourbrains is, is challenging.
And so I, what I encouragepeople to do is, is use breath
work.
Um, and so breath work is reallyabout centering your.
Attention.
Your attention.
I've talked about intention, butnow I'm talking about attention
center.
(46:56):
Your attention on your breath,on your breathing, and anytime
thoughts come.
Let'em go.
And, and the way that you canlet them go is by re-engaging
with the breath.
Just now put your focussomewhere different.
Put your focus on breathing,breathing in, breathing out,
breathing in, breathing out,breathing in, breathing out.
Listen to it, hear it, feel it.
(47:18):
And that's a way ofrecalibrating from the world of
constant swirling thoughts.
Um, so I think breath work.
Is is really an important partof it.
And without breath work,sometimes we don't have another
way to just kind of, we needsomething else to engage our
(47:41):
attention on.
If we're trying to orient ourattention away from thoughts and
putting your attention on yourbreath is one good way to
practice that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (47:51):
Yeah, that's such, that's such a
helpful one.
I think the only thing that Iever add with that is like,
yeah, it's fine if it's likeyour mind's all over the place
for a while.
Like just
Hunter Mobley (48:03):
so is everybody else's.
You know, you're in good companyand this is something that we
practice and we try on and we,we know that it's a lifetime of
work.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:15):
Hmm.
Hunter Mobley (48:15):
And that there will be seasons in our life
where we will come to that sortof meditation or centering
prayer practice and it will justfeel like the, a warm blanket
wrapping around us.
And there will be seasons oflife where we will come to it
and it will feel like a struggleevery second of the way.
And that's part of being humanand living as well.
And we're gentle with ourselvesand we, the only thing that we
(48:40):
don't do is just.
Not return to it, you know,
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:46):
Yeah.
So keep coming back.
Hunter Mobley (48:48):
keep coming back.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:49):
Yeah.
Um, where can people find yourbook and find the rest of your
work?
Hunter Mobley (48:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Um, so you can find really me inall the places just through
Enneagram Hunter.
That's my website.
That's my Instagram handle.
That's my Facebook.
So enneagram hunter.com.
And.
On Instagram, but the bookLetting Go Finding You is, uh,
releasing May 13th.
I, it's funny, just as ofyesterday and today, people who
(49:17):
pre-ordered are already startingto get them trickling in, which
I don't, I don't know how thatall works, but people are
showing up some, sometimes withthem in their hands.
Um, but letting go, finding you,and you can find it on Amazon
anywhere.
You would buy books and, um.
It's there and it's really, it'sthis work, it's, it's memoir,
it's Enneagram, it'scontemplative spirituality, all
(49:39):
mashed up and um, because Ithink they're all really telling
the same story and that's whatit's trying to do.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:46):
Yeah.
I mean, I certainly enjoyed itand I think I was honestly a
little bit nervous'cause I waslike, I really have not dabbled
much in, you know, this sort ofspirituality in many years.
And I was like, I don't knowwhat I'm gonna find.
And I, so yeah, I, I really,really enjoyed it.
Um, so I really hope ourlisteners will pick it up.
(50:09):
I have two final questions I ask
Hunter Mobley (50:10):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (50:11):
Um, first one is, tell me about a book
that has helped you refresh youor shaped you in the last year.
Hunter Mobley (50:18):
Hmm.
a book that has helped me,shaped me, refresh me in the
last year.
you know, one of, I, I read alot and I read fiction.
I'll tell you the.
One of the most importantfiction books that I read this
in the past year, it was calledThis Tender Land.
And, um, it is by, uh, Waltersomething.
(50:42):
We'll find it and, and you cantell all your people, um, once
we Google.
But this Tender Land and it is astory, is a fictional story
about, uh, one of the really.
Important and heartbreakingperiods of our nation's history
where, many.
Native American indigenouspeople were, uh, there was a
(51:04):
goal to mainstream and, um, tosend them children to schools
and orphanages and places thatwould really, uh, bring them
into more of a, what we thoughtof as American culture and, and
some real sad atrocities andsome beautiful, uh, lives that,
that emerged through thatseason.
(51:25):
It was.
It was beautiful, this tenderland.
I, I love fiction, I lovestories, I love storytelling.
So, um, that's something that'smeant a lot to me lately.
Stephanie Barron Hall (51:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, I will check that out.
and final question.
Tell me a piece of advice thathas really stuck with you.
Hunter Mobley (51:42):
I was thinking about this today when I was
having a conversation with mybrother about a, a life
transition that he's goingthrough, and I told him one of
the most fundamentallyimportant, uh, principles to me
that I've learned from Quakerspirituality is the idea that
way will open and way willclose, and that it is an act of
(52:07):
violence against self and theholy to.
Force things into being and thatwe should pay a lot more
attention in our lives in termsof what we, decisions we make,
or discernment that we're doing,to what way is opening and what
(52:27):
way is closing.
And I try to think about thatoften and, and lean in to the
way that opens and, and allowthe way that closes to close.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:37):
Mm-hmm.
That's so challenging for somany of us who just like wanna
make it happen.
Hunter Mobley (52:45):
Absolutely.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:46):
think we should add that to your like,
uh, practices for assertivetypes
Hunter Mobley (52:53):
that's
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:53):
I can form reality to fit my will.
Hunter Mobley (52:56):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And me too.
I've got a big three wing.
I can do it too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (53:01):
yeah.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me today.
This has been really lovely tochat about your book.
and.
just about the Enneagram andyour story with it.
So I really appreciate youjoining me today.
Um, and I hope everyone willgrab, letting go finding you.
Hunter Mobley (53:18):
Thank you so much, Stephanie.
What a treat for me.
I appreciate it.
Steph Barron Hall (53:22):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
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instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway
(53:43):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(54:03):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
when we talk about the Enneagram, it's like
(00:01):
nobody needs to go get anythingthat they don't have.
It's really a journey ofreturning to something that is
fundamentally truer.
the Enneagram tells us, justlike contemplative spirituality
tells us, it tells us that thetruer, deeper thing, the
immortal diamond, the virtueall, it was always there in you.
It just got covered andprotected by these layers.
(00:22):
And so our, our lifetime of workis really about.
Doing things and adoptingmentalities and postures that
allow the layers to fall away sothat the truer things can
actually reemerge, not thingsthat are outside of ourselves,
things that are actuallyfundamentally inside that we're
always there.
(00:47):
Hello and welcome to Enneagramin Real Life, the podcast where
we explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BarronHall, and on today's episode I
have a guest that you might haveheard on many other Enneagram
podcasts.
I am joined today by HunterMobley, who has a brand new book
(01:08):
coming out and has been featuredon various Enneagram podcasts,
especially those hosted bySuzanne Stabile.
So if you're into SuzanneStabiles work, then I'm sure
that you've heard of Hunterbefore.
Hunter Mobley is a giftedEnneagram teacher, author,
attorney, and former pastor whobrings deep insight and
compassion to his work.
(01:28):
He apprenticed under renownedEnneagram teacher, Suzanne
Stabile, and now teachesalongside her and her husband,
Joe Stabile at their teachingcenter in Dallas, Texas.
Based in Nashville, Tennessee,hunter combines his diverse
professional experience with aheartfelt approach to spiritual
growth.
In 2020, hunter authored 40 Dayson being a two part of the
(01:50):
Enneagram Daily Reflectionseries offering heartfelt
insights for those with a typetwo personality.
His upcoming book, letting Go,finding You Will Explore the
Enneagrams Transformative Power.
In helping individuals releaselimiting patterns and embrace
their true essence.
Hunter has taught Enneagramretreats, workshops, and events
(02:11):
in diverse settings, includingAmy Grant's Alaskan Cruise.
That one sounds interesting.
Belmont University, VanderbiltUniversity, denominational
headquarters, and churches andretreat centers nationwide and
he talks about the Enneagramwith such compassion and
expertise.
So we were able to explore somedifferent concepts that he
brought up in his book.
(02:32):
Um, especially we talked aboutthe, this concept of virtue and
vice and how For Hunter, hereally emphasizes making space
for the virtue rather thanworking on the vice or the
passion.
and I really liked that approachbecause it feels very
compassionate and positive.
So I asked him to share a littlebit about that.
And then we also talked aboutcontemplative practices in
(02:54):
general, kind of broad strokes.
And then he shared a practicefor everyone who is.
Not into contemplative work ofany sort, and where they can get
started.
So I really appreciated hisperspective, and I'm so grateful
that Hunter joined me for thisepisode.
If you'd like to learn more, youcan always find his info in this
show notes, but you can alsofind him on Instagram at
(03:16):
Enneagram Hunter.
online@enneagramhunter.com andhis new book, which I have, and
I have to say I've really beenenjoying, is out now and it's
called Letting Go, finding YouUncover Your Truest Self through
the Enneagram and Contemplation.
So make sure to check out thatbook wherever books are sold.
And I do wanna mention justbecause, you know, he is a
(03:37):
former pastor, but I found thebook to be really approachable,
uh, for various walks of lifeand spirituality backgrounds.
So if that interests you at all,I think this would be an
enlightening read.
So I hope you enjoy.
And without further ado, here'smy conversation with Hunter
Mobley.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:54):
Well, hunter, welcome to the podcast.
Hunter Mobley (03:56):
Thank you, Stephanie.
I'm so glad to be with you.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:59):
Yeah.
I'm excited to chat with youtoday about your new book, which
is called Letting Go FindingYou.
but before we get into any ofthat, I'd love to start with an
introduction, your background alittle bit, and how you found
the Enneagram.
I.
Hunter Mobley (04:11):
Yeah, so thank you.
I'm an Enneagram two, by theway.
That's my Enneagram number thatwe'll talk about some.
But I'm based out of Nashville,Tennessee.
Grew up in Nashville, live herenow.
And, um.
My background has been sort ofeclectic in terms of vocation,
but I've had the opportunity, I.
Opportunity to be an attorney,to be a pastor of a church.
(04:33):
Um, and now I get to travel thecountry and teach and speak
about the Enneagram, write aboutthe Enneagram.
And then when I'm not doingthat, um, I, I do some culture
work at a trust company inNashville.
So kind of.
Have had some eclecticopportunities.
It, it all sort of comes back toI'm a people person and, um, I
(04:54):
love working with people.
I love making relationship and,uh, shepherding teams and
thinking about culture.
You know, my journey to theEnneagram is sort of perfect for
my number because the Enneagramfor me began in a friendship.
Um, I.
Had never heard the word before.
I was familiar, probably like alot of us, with some of the
(05:16):
other personality tools in theorbit.
And I'd, I'd used some of themand enjoyed some of them,
Myers-Brigg and StrengthFinder,and, you know, I'd figured out I
was a golden retriever.
All the ones that we, that weuse and they're all, they're all
useful, but.
Never heard about the Enneagram,and I was in Boca Grande,
Florida at a dinner party at aretreat the final night of a
(05:38):
retreat with some friends aroundthe table, and I just happened
to be seated at a table next toSuzanne and Joe Bil.
We didn't know each other.
I didn't know who they were.
They didn't know who I was.
We didn't really.
Pick to have those be our seats.
And so Suzanne and I are sittingnext to each other.
Turns out we're both Enneagramtwos.
(05:58):
You know, I find out what thatmeans later.
And so as Enneagram twos, wejust kind of fell into our
natural pattern of making afriend, you know, who are you?
Who are you?
Well, where do you live?
Where do you live?
What do you do with your, and sothat dinner, because of
Suzanne's work with theEnneagram, um, I heard that word
for the first time.
(06:20):
And it just so happened that shewas gonna be in Nashville two
weeks later.
Um, she was coming to Nashvilleto speak to a church staff, um,
just to do kind of a teambuilding event with them.
And so she said, well, I'm gonnabe in Nashville in two weeks.
And I said, where are you gonnabe?
And she told me the church name.
And I said, well, that pastor isone of my best friends.
(06:41):
I'm gonna text him right now andjust see if I can sit.
In the back of the room and, youknow, kind of interope on their
church staff retreat day.
And he said yes.
And, um, I went and, and thatwas where I was first introduced
to the nine numbers, but itreally, a friendship began with
Suzanne that evening.
(07:01):
And, um, we just enjoyed oneanother and connected.
And it was that friendship thatultimately led to me really
looking deeper into this tool.
And so, uh, little.
Did I know where it would takeme and that I would be doing
work alongside of her and, andspending so much time traveling
and speaking about the tool.
(07:21):
But it kind of is just now makesall kind of sense in the world
to me and, and makes me sort oflaugh that, uh, it came out of a
friendship and uh, that's how somany things come for me is in
Enneagram two.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:36):
Yes, for sure.
Now, at that first dinnermeeting, did you guys talk about
the Enneagram?
Was Suzanne like, oh, you're atwo,
Hunter Mobley (07:44):
No, no, we really, we didn't talk about it
except just to her to give methe.
32nd version of what it is, asshe was kind of telling me about
her work and what she does and,uh, just as we were meeting each
other and talk, you know, I wasa pastor at the time and she was
a speaker, so, um, she told mekind of what the system was from
(08:06):
a high level view, but I didn'tknow anything about the numbers.
Certainly didn't identify mynumber at that dinner.
So it really just began very,very organically and very slowly
out of that relationship.
Stephanie Barron Hall (08:18):
Yeah, I'm sure you get this question all
the time.
Um, but I get it a lot, which isif you sat down and.
To somebody at a dinner party,would you, you know, be able to
pinpoint their number?
And, you know, first of all, Idon't know how you respond to
that, but I'm like, well, I'mnot really there to do that.
So, like, I'm not thinking aboutthat unless they're like an 8,
8, 8 or like a real big seven.
(08:39):
You know, I'm not, I'm notsitting there thinking about
that.
Hunter Mobley (08:42):
Absolutely.
You know, I, I'm, I so resonatewith that, Stephanie.
People do ask me that a lot, youknow, well, because this is
something that you do, do you,you know, everybody that you
meet, is it just so clear toyou?
And the honest truth is, and I Iimagine you'll probably resonate
with this as well, the, thedeeper you go into this type of
work, um, the deeper you go onthe Enneagram, the more you know
(09:05):
about it, the less.
Likely.
I would ever feel like I couldjust sit across the table from
someone and type them, becauseyou know the numbers.
When you do this work in areally rich, robust, and deep
way, you realize how big thesenumbers are and how complex the
system is and how.
(09:27):
Complex people are, and itbecomes less of just sort of a
quick way that you cancaricature yourself or somebody
else.
And it's really something that'svery layered and textured and
complex.
So I know sometimes people thinkthat I'm not being honest with
them with it.
I say, no.
Gosh, honestly, I'm really notthinking about what number
someone else is unless they justwant to talk to me about that or
(09:50):
tell me that, or explore thatwith me.
Uh, but it, it, it doesn't, itdoesn't cross my mind most of
the time.
Stephanie Barron Hall (09:57):
Yeah.
And I think the more people youreally talk to on a deeper level
about it, you know, like you'resaying, you know so much and
there are so many nuances.
So even watching a TV show, one,I'm not thinking about it, but
two, I'm like, but there's somuch more to that character that
we don't know.
So like how could you possiblyknow their type?
And sometimes on social media,people are like, no, this person
(10:17):
is definitely of this type.
And I'm like, I.
Hunter Mobley (10:21):
I know, I don't know.
I, you know, and, and in someways you, you might be like me.
It's like some of that I'velearned the hard way where I've
just felt so certain.
That I, I, I, you know, knewwhat number somebody was.
And then I really have theopportunity to get under the
hood and get to know them andwhat motivates them.
And I, I understand some of theother layers to their onion,
(10:42):
maybe trauma, pain, loss, grief,background that they're dealing
with.
And all of a sudden I think, ohmy goodness, I've got a.
I've gotta be careful.
You know, I, I, that was justthe tip of the iceberg of what
there was to know about them.
And, um, so we, we learned thathopefully on the wisdom path.
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:01):
Yeah.
So then when you encountered,you know, this is, you know, all
nine types, Suzanne'spresenting, were there any other
types that really resonated orstood out for you?
I.
Hunter Mobley (11:13):
Um, there were, you know, I, I did walk away
from that.
It was sort of a know yournumber experience that she was
leading from that church staff.
And I did walk away knowing thatI was a two.
But, um, and, you know, people'sjourneys are so different.
I always encourage people to,you know, don't be discouraged
if it takes you years.
I know some people that.
(11:33):
Travel the world and make aliving teaching the Enneagram.
And it took them kind of someyears to discern between a
couple of numbers.
So everybody's journey is reallydifferent and unique.
But, um, there were, the othertwo numbers, Stephanie, that I,
I did sort of have to wrestlewith were nine and four.
Um, and, and those were numbersthat I think are not uncommon
(11:54):
for twos sometimes to those tobe two others that sort of crop
up and you just have to kindatake a deeper look at them.
But two really emerged, um,quickly for me.
Uh, I think, you know, nine isso.
Similar in so many ways to twoin, in terms of our kind of
(12:14):
deferential posture to otherpeople and to life.
So I think when I was hearingsome of the ways that nines can
sort of make themselves small tomake other people feel good, um,
you know, I, I had someresonance with that and I had to
learn deeper about what reallynine was and understand that.
Their way of seeing and beingmotivated didn't speak as
(12:36):
directly to me.
And then four, you know, twosare connected to four with a
line in movement and we movetoward four when we are in more
of a secure integration place.
And um, it's funny as a.
I think just as a, you know,some of this is not connected to
my personality, but justconnected to, you know, I've
(12:57):
always enjoyed art and music andI grew up in a, uh, you know,
sort of artistic culture andfamily, and so I think I kind of
always like, wanted to be afour.
So I really, I love fours.
I kind of, I, I sort of jokewith friends in my life.
I collect fours in my life, but,um, those were the other two
numbers for me that I had to,had to think about.
(13:19):
In a deep way to reallyunderstand which was gonna be
the number that spoke the mostto me.
Stephanie Barron Hall (13:24):
Yeah.
What were the points of clarityfor you that you were like, oh,
I'm definitely a two?
Because this I think is tricky,especially the two nine
comparison.
And I know I've heard you andJoe Stale talk about that'cause
he's a nine.
Um, but even the two and fourcomparison, I've seen that a few
times.
Um, what were the points thatmade you be like, oh no, I
actually lead with two.
Hunter Mobley (13:46):
Well, I'll tell you between two and nine, the
biggest point of clarity to mebetween those two numbers for
me, and I think when I teach nowtoo, this is kind of how I talk
about those two numbers as beingdifferent is, um, both twos and
nines will.
In some ways look similar intheir deferential posture like I
was describing.
(14:06):
So both twos and nines arelikely to say, you know, Hey
Stephanie, I, you know, we don'thave to do what I want to do.
Let you know.
What are you interested in?
Let's go with that.
What would you like to do today?
And so that looks reallysimilar.
The difference though, is ninesare doing that honestly because
they're not sure that theirpresence makes a big enough
(14:27):
difference to really.
M make their own agenda knownand expect that it would be
honored and received.
Whereas twos, if I'm reallyhonest with myself, the reason
why I adopt a deferentialposture with a lot of people is
because I, it's sort of astrategy to earn place in that
(14:49):
person's life.
And so it's like the subtledifferences, you know, whereas
nines.
Many times think, I'm not surehow much my presence makes a
difference in this relationship.
Twos we're real, real, real surethat we're not sure how you
could do without us, you know,and so there's, there's almost
this fun.
(15:09):
Even though it looks similar,there's a fundamental difference
between twos and nines in thatI, I am sure.
Of the difference I can make nowthat in your life.
Now that doesn't always meanthat I'm sure of my place in
your life and I may be trying todo things to still earn
appreciation or earn place, butI am sure that if you will just
(15:30):
let me in, I can really make abig impact or a difference.
And nines don't see that sameway.
Um, you know, and the four, thefour difference for me really
is, um.
You know, fours, one of theirgifts.
This is one of the beautifulgreat things about fours that I
(15:52):
aspire to as a two, and that I,I learn from and that I try to
go pick up through that linethat connects me to four is
fours at the beautiful core arejust people of authenticity that
are a little bit like.
Take it or leave it.
Like it or not, this is kind ofwho I am, you know, and, and
sometimes it's, they think, youknow, dang, I wish I, it'd be
(16:14):
great if I could sort of justturn down some of this and just
be a little bit more like whateverybody else thinks I should
be or expects.
And as you know, twos, twos are.
A little bit more susceptible tokind of lean over into that
three space and sort of adaptand morph and change and, you
(16:35):
know, contextualize a little bitto kind of be what, what's
needed to be to sort of earnplace and earn, relationship
and, um.
You know, that's just, that's alittle subtle difference.
but it's, it's an importantdifference and it's something
that I can recognize in myselfand recognize often in speaking
to twos and fours.
Stephanie Barron Hall (16:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, um, you know, twosand threes do so much shape
shifting.
I'm type three.
I dunno if, um, you knew
Hunter Mobley (17:04):
We're all kind of right there together.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:05):
Yeah.
And so we do so much shapeshifting and I think I've seen
fours do it for sure.
And um, but they hate it
Hunter Mobley (17:14):
They hate it
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:15):
they know they're doing it.
Hunter Mobley (17:16):
they do.
They hate it.
And, and to be honest, and thisis really a compliment to them,
they're not as good at it.
As twos and threes are, youknow, and that's a compliment
really to fours, you know, it'sthey, they pick it up and they
try it on a little bit, butbecause of that core commitment
to inner knowing and authenticliving, that's a beautiful gift
(17:37):
of fours.
They're just not quite as goodat it and they kind of hate it.
And so they don't do it quite aslong or as deep or as wide as
sometimes twos and threes pickthat up to do.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:49):
Yeah.
Which we are like, here's mytailor made personality just for
you.
Hunter Mobley (17:54):
Yes.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:56):
Yeah.
so.
I had a friend a few years agomake a joke that types one, two,
and three are the strivers,right?
Like the, the types that, and Ido think that there's truth to
that ones, twos and threes takeon so much extra responsibility
that's like beyond what shouldbe in their scope, right?
And like Suzanne always says islike a big thing for twos is
(18:16):
knowing what's mine to do andwhat isn't.
And I think ones and threes alsohave a hard time with that.
Um.
And so I noticed this theme inyour book that's all about this
concept of cease striving.
And I remember, you know, I wasraised in a similar background
and you know, went to, I got mylittle biblical studies minor,
Hunter Mobley (18:40):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (18:40):
when I was an undergrad.
Um, and I remember that conceptcoming up so much and.
even like you were saying, kindof connecting with it, right?
Connecting with the, the idea,but having no idea for myself
what that actually meant.
And I'm wondering if you couldtell me more about what that
hits on for you and how it kindof became linked to this whole
(19:02):
concept of, of letting go andfinding yourself.
Hunter Mobley (19:05):
Yeah, I, Stephanie, I, I do, uh, that's
been such an important part ofmy journey, you know, I sounds
like similar to you.
You know, I grew up like many ofus in a conservative, Christian
evangelical, uh, culture anddynamic and, um.
In that and, you know, in theAmerican South, which is kind of
(19:27):
the headquarters of all that.
So it was sort of that onsteroids and I figured out how
to do it well and, and it meanta lot to me.
And, and you know, God bless thebroken road, it taught me a lot
and I'm so grateful for all thepieces of the story and all the
pieces of the background.
But one of the.
The impulses that it really ledme to adapt, adopt in my own
(19:49):
spiritual journey was this ideathat, hey, we gotta take the
hill and we gotta do big thingsfor God.
You know, that sort of theunderlying message was, it's
gonna be hard, you're gonna haveto work hard.
It's gonna be tough.
Culture's gonna be against you,but you gotta climb the hill.
And if you climb and you fightand you work and you.
Get there, you know, and, and soin, in my own spiritual kind of
(20:13):
understanding, there wasembedded this idea that, you
know, man, it's gonna be reallyhard and it's gonna be tough,
but God expects big things fromme.
And so that whole mindset ofspirituality is really all about
striving.
And unfortunately, it's allabout ego because at the end of
the day.
The, it's based on this ideathat, um, I can figure out and I
(20:38):
can do what God wants me to do,and I can do it well enough that
it will make a big change andplease God and make an impact
and along the way.
We all do some really wonderfulthings and some people are
helped and we have some greatexperiences and everything
(20:59):
contains its opposite andthere's some good results from
all that, and it doesn't do muchfor our souls.
What it does as it builds ouregos and our personalities,
because we are still in controlof our spiritual journeys, we
are still in control of, in manyways our relationship for God
and, and I.
(21:19):
I had to, I, I had to unlearnthat.
And, um, you know, frankly,like, like a lot of unlearning,
the only reason why you unlearnit is because it stops working
for you in the same ways that itused to.
And, um, I just, I.
Wasn't having the, the successof, you know, overcoming all the
(21:40):
things I wanted to overcome.
And, and, and I had to startkind of asking myself some tough
questions about, you know, what,what is this about?
Is this really what thespiritual life is about?
Are there other ways ofapproaching spirituality?
And, and through those kind of.
Seasons of questioning and somedeconstructing that was
happening in my own theology andmy own life.
(22:02):
I was introduced to the languageand the posture of contemplation
as a, as a very differentapproach to a spiritual journey.
And it was, it was like thething that was missing.
You know, it's similar to theEnneagram.
Once I was introduced to it, um,it just, it, it just clicked.
(22:24):
It just, it was true to me.
I didn't need, uh, I didn't needto be convinced really, of the
Enneagram.
I didn't need to be convinced ofcontemplation.
It was just when I wasintroduced to those two tools,
those two spiritual wisdomtraditions, they just resonated
in my inner knower as true.
And it's something that Ineeded.
And so as I then began to swimdeeper in the waters of learning
(22:49):
about contemplative spiritualityand contemplation, um, what I
came to see is, oh my goodness,this is actually kind of the
paradox of I.
The active spirituality, theTake the Hill spirituality.
In the book, I call it, youknow, five step Spirituality.
You know, what are the fivesteps?
Let's figure'em out.
Let's do'em really right?
And let's get'em done today.
(23:09):
Uh, contemplation is really theopposite posture of that in so
many ways.
It's about letting go, nottaking on, it's about
subtracting, not adding.
It's about emptying our minds sothat the presence of the holy
can.
Phil versus us going and gettingsomething and doing something
(23:31):
for God.
It's about seeing that God'swork is happening all around us
and, and it's unseen and, andyou know, we're not driving it
and we're not controlling it.
So, um.
Yeah, and then as I started tolearn more about contemplative
spirituality and adopting aspiritual posture of letting go,
I started to see the way inwhich the Enneagram is inviting
(23:52):
us to the same thing.
It's inviting us to let go offalse self and ego and
personality.
Not because they're bad, notbecause they won't help us, not
because we don't ever need them,but because they become so, so
strongly.
Dripped that they actually keepus from getting to some of the
(24:13):
truer, deeper things of thesoul.
So the Enneagram, I realized isinviting us to let go so that
the truer thing can be revealed.
Contemplative spirituality isreally about allowing us,
inviting us to let go so thatdeeper, truer things can be
revealed.
And as I saw those two systems.
(24:34):
Really speaking the samelanguage.
Then I became fascinated withlearning how are these two
systems not just parallel tracksthat are speaking similar
language, but how are theyactually interwoven and
interdependent?
And that's what I became reallyconvinced of.
That's what, in a way, the bookis really about.
I, I'm now Stephanie kind of a.
(24:55):
A believer that I don't thinkyou can really do the deep
transformative work that theEnneagram invites you into
without something that lookslike a contemplative way of
living.
Now, you don't have to have thewords.
You don't have to.
Plenty of people find their wayto health and wisdom without the
(25:16):
words of the Enneagram or thewords of contemplative
spirituality, and it's not evenabout one.
Theology or one belief system inthe holy, but it's the posture
that contemplation invites us toof opening up and letting go
that is rooted and connected tothe transformation that can
(25:37):
happen of moving frompersonality back to true self.
Stephanie Barron Hall (25:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it, it's interesting that yousay that because I very much
take a non-spiritual approach tothe Enneagram in the sense that
I don't, Have any specific, likereligious bent to it and, and
really like, I just wrote thisbook that's like Enneagram in
real life, all these practices,but I actually totally agree
with you because realisticallyall of the practices that are
(26:03):
gonna actually move the needleare things where it's learning
how to not look through apinhole.
It's like having a wide anglelens on what are the options and
what are the choices and likelet's observe ourselves and, and
so like I think by definitionthat there are so many
contemplative.
Ways to go about it that aren'tspecifically in like, like what
you're saying.
They're not in a specificreligious tradition, but offer
(26:26):
us the perspective that we needthat because the Enneagram, our
types we're so stuck in ourperspective.
Hunter Mobley (26:34):
Yes, we are, we are, we're so stuck in our way
of seeing and, and so when wethink about, well, how am I
gonna get unstuck in my way ofseeing it can't be just another.
Picking up of some other set oftools or tricks or tips or five
steps, it's gotta be something,a whole different posture.
(26:56):
It's gotta be, whoa, how, how doI, how do I open up?
How do I let go?
How do I, how do I kind of have.
The layers lifted off so that Ican, the Enneagram tells us,
just like contemplativespirituality tells us, it tells
us that the truer, deeper thing,the immortal diamond, the virtue
all, it was always there in you.
It just got covered andprotected by these layers.
(27:18):
And so our, our lifetime of workis really about.
Doing things and adoptingmentalities and postures that
allow the layers to fall away sothat the truer things can
actually reemerge, not thingsthat are outside of ourselves,
things that are actuallyfundamentally inside that we're
always there.
(27:38):
That's what's exciting.
You know, we, when we talk aboutthe Enneagram, it's like nobody
needs to go get anything thatthey don't have.
It's really a journey ofreturning to something that is
fundamentally truer.
And, um, that's what's so, socompelling about it to me.
Stephanie Barron Hall (27:56):
Yeah, and I think that's why for me, in
this process, it's been soimportant and like has walked
hand in hand with some of my owndeconstruction process because I
had to.
Walk away from the doctrine oftotal depravity that I was
taught is like the only way.
And if, if I believe that we allhave this essence, then it's
like, well, that doesn'tactually fit with the total
Hunter Mobley (28:17):
No.
No.
Stephanie Barron Hall (28:19):
so I'd love to talk about that a little
bit more because, you know, youhighlight that there is an
overfocus on the passions,right?
rather than the virtues.
And so it sounds like.
Kind of, you're thinking of itthe opposite way.
Not we're chipping away thepassion, but we're making more
space for the virtue.
And by by nature, the passionkind of falls away.
(28:40):
And I'm wondering if you canwalk us through what that could
look like.
Like if you have stories orexamples of what that could look
like for the types I.
Hunter Mobley (28:47):
Well, I, yes.
Let's talk through each of thetypes and, and I'll just say in
kind of general, just affirmingwhat you're describing.
We, when we first come to knowour Enneagram number, usually we
do encounter the passion forthat number.
That's one of the first thingswe hear.
That's one of the first thingswe can hook into, and that's,
it's a helpful way to be able toname and.
(29:09):
Describe the language ofpersonality and our Enneagram
number, and a lot of it's justconnected to our way of being
human.
You know, Suzanne SBI says allthe time that we know ourselves
more by what we get wrong than,but what we get.
Right?
And so that's why if, if I wasto go lead a Know Your Number
seminar and talk about all ofthe virtues instead of the
(29:29):
passions, everyone would loveit, but no one would figure out
what number they were.
So, so there is an overemphasison the passion, but.
The, the virtue is the truerthing, and here's how I
discovered this, and, and thiswill tie into each of these
numbers when you look at thepassion and the virtue for each
number, I.
Okay, so let's look at ones.
(29:50):
Anger is the passion.
Serenity is the virtue.
Okay.
Anger, serenity.
Hmm.
What do those have to do witheach other?
Well, let's look at twos.
Humility is the passion, orsorry.
Pride is the passion.
Humility is the virtue.
Hmm.
Humility and pride.
Well, you start to notice, wewill go through all the numbers.
Deceit for threes is thepassion.
(30:10):
Truthfulness is the virtue.
They're opposites.
They're opposites, right?
Deceit, truthfulness, pride,humility, anger, serenity, and
we'll go on and on.
You know, fours have some kindof funky words, envy and
equanimity, but, but if weunpack what those words really
(30:31):
mean and what they look likefrom an Enneagram perspective,
we can see them as opposites.
If we just see that, that thepassion and the virtues are
opposites.
Then what we all of a sudden areled to see is, whoa, okay, if
the virtue is tied to true self,the truer thing and the passion
is tied to false self, the theless true thing, and those two
(30:56):
things are opposite to oneanother.
What I'm learning now is thatwho I am at my core, in my inner
being, is actually the oppositeof what my Enneagram number
describes and.
That is weird and strange andencouraging and inspiring.
(31:20):
Because it means that's thefundamental answer to, you know,
well, all you're trying to do isjust kind of put me in a box and
limit me.
No, actually, what I'm gonnatell you is the way that you
come to know yourself and havebeen described and would be
described by others about yourpersonality is the 180 degree
(31:40):
turn from who you really are.
And so again, anger and serenityfor ones.
Pride and hu, and humility fortwos, dece and truthfulness for
threes, equanimity and in andenvy for fours, greed and
non-attachment for fives, fearand courage for sixes, sevens,
(32:01):
gluttony and sobriety.
Those are easy to see asopposites, eights, lust, and
innocence.
And then finally, nines withsloth.
And action.
And.
Each of those differences, thoseopposite turnings, that the
passion and the virtue give usare the first invitation into
the good news of the mystery ofthe Enneagram, which is there is
(32:22):
something that's a part of yourinner essence and your soul and
your true self that isfundamentally different and
opposite from what yourpersonality bears out now.
Then we each have a journey of,well, how do we get there?
And, and the journey ismultifaceted.
Um, there are lots of pathwaysfor how do we go from.
(32:44):
Really the journey in life is,you know, virtue to passion,
hopefully back to virtue, youknow, so, but a lot of us, you
know, we see passion, we see ourpersonality, we see our
Enneagram numbers.
So our, our question is how dowe go from passion back to
virtue?
And that word back is importantbecause again, it's something
that's already there.
It's not something you've gottago find and get and grab.
(33:05):
It's something you've got torediscover and.
Stephanie, I think there are alot of ways we could talk about
many, many pathways.
One of the entry points that Ithink is particularly helpful is
really about findingcontemplative practices that
(33:27):
speak to the repressed center ofintelligence for each number.
So.
When we talk about the numbers,sometimes we group them in these
stands groupings of we say onesand twos and sixes have a lot of
things in common, and then wesay threes and sevens and eights
have a lot of things in common,and fours and fives and nines
have a lot of things in common.
(33:47):
There's other ways we can groupthe numbers, but this is one way
and.
The fundamental thing that thosethree groupings have in common
is which of thinking, feeling,or doing lives in the basement
and is underrepresented.
So for ones and twos and sixes,it's thinking.
So that means when I'm talkingto ones and twos and sixes about
(34:08):
this journey from.
Passion back to virtue.
I'm saying you have got tochallenge your thought life.
You have got to bring upthinking, you have got to
confront the.
Traditional ways that you havethought and, and ordered your
thinking around, that's, that'sone of the royal pathways back
(34:33):
to your virtue.
And so as you can think aboutways of living or contemplative
practices that really address.
The mind and address thinkingand shift thinking, then that
may be one of the greatestopenings for you.
Ones, twos and sixes toward thelife of virtue.
(34:55):
Back from passion.
Well, for threes and sevens andeights, it's feeling lives in
the basement.
So I talked to threes and sevensand eights about finding
practices, finding habits,finding disciplines, finding
ways of, of being that reallyhook into.
Feeling soft, tender, layered,very textured feeling, not just
passion, not just good things,not just intensity.
(35:17):
All the feeling spectrum.
And that's one of the ways thatthey can find their way back to
virtue and fours and fives andnines.
It's, it's the action center,it's the body it's doing.
And so really when Ispecifically, when I talk about
contemplative practices forfours and fives and nines, I say
fours and fives and nines.
(35:37):
Go pick up contemplativepractices that actually bring
your body into motion and intoaction.
Bring your body into theequation.
Go, walk, labyrinth, go.
You know, go do some breathwork.
Do something that reengagesyour.
Action center and your bodycenter.
That's just one way of thinkingabout, well, how might each
(36:01):
number approach the journey frompassion back to virtue?
There are so many ways, um, but,but really looking at those
centers of intelligence is, isone, one Good way.
And.
Ultimately the reason why I keeptalking about contemplative
practices, it's not, like yousaid, it's not even so much
(36:23):
about one or two specificspiritual modalities or
practices that I'm, I'm callingpeople to, I'm inviting people
to think about a posture that ismore about letting go and less
about taking on, and that's whatI mean when I talk about
contemplation and, and whateverwe.
Do in our Enneagram work andtransformative journey, if it's
(36:46):
going to be about releasing egoand releasing passion, it can't
be about taking on.
It can't be about doing thething.
It's gotta be about undoing andletting go and subtracting, and
that's where we're gonna findvirtue, reemerging, and showing
up again.
Stephanie Barron Hall (37:03):
Yeah.
and I think when I think ofthose, you know, when I think
about like the one for one SusanSixes, I'm like, well, that
seems easy.
But then I have to remember likethe pressure that I feel when
I'm like, I want to avoidemotions coming up right now.
That's the pressure that theyfeel in those moments too.
where they're being challenged.
Hunter Mobley (37:23):
Because ones and twos and sixes, you know, we're
thinking all the time.
It's just the problem is whatare we thinking about?
You know, ones are oftenspending so much time in
self-critical thinking orthinking about what could be
done differently or better.
And twos, I mean, we're justlost in thoughts about
relationships that often aren'ttrue.
Sixes are lost in thinking aboutplans and contingencies and, and
(37:46):
things that could go wrong.
And so the, the challenge is.
Is saying, okay, well can wechallenge those traditional ways
of thinking?
It's kind of similar sometimesfor threes and sevens and eights
where feeling it's like theyfeel you feel as a 3, 7, 8 all
the time.
It's just that are there, arethere pieces of the feeling
spectrum that areunderrepresented that sort of
(38:10):
get ignored and left out?
What if we could go pick thoseup too?
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:13):
Mm-hmm.
Hunter Mobley (38:14):
You know, and fours and fives and nines.
I mean, they're all, they'rebusy people doing life just like
the rest of us.
But the question is, are theydoing the things that really are
the most important and criticalthings for them to do, or are
they doing in more of adistracted way that actually.
Gives them permission to not getto the things that, that really,
(38:37):
they, they know they ought toget to.
Um, but just being busy kind ofmakes them feel like, well, you
know, I'm busy.
I, I'll, I'll get to that later.
So that's the invitation reallywith those underrepresented
centers is thinking about howcan I pick up a different
approach to that center or adifferent way of interacting
(39:00):
with that center I.
Stephanie Barron Hall (39:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um.
One of the things that I reallyliked, and I think everyone
should, I mean, I, I enjoyedreading your book, like the, the
front matter is very much likeyour story and like your
history, which I, I enjoyedbecause I always liked those
parts of books.
People skipped straight to theEnneagram part.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like we could get to that.
(39:21):
Let's talk about the person.
Um, but you talked about theseways, like these different
examples of how, um, like a onewho was a parent was like.
Found a little spot of Serenityright in her day.
And it made me think of justbecause of, of this avenue that
(39:42):
we're, we're discussing this in,um, I was speaking with somebody
who's a self-preservation five.
So she's very much likenaturally well like.
Personality says, disengage fromthe body, right?
Disengage from the physicalworld.
And she told me about how from ayoung age, she started horseback
(40:04):
riding and it required her to bevery in tune with her body
because her horse was gettingall sorts of signals.
She's like, what are you doing?
Why are you doing these crazythings?
I didn't tell you to do that.
But what she had to no notice islike, oh, my body is telling the
horse to do something differentthan what.
I am saying, like my brain istrying to
Hunter Mobley (40:25):
Yes,
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:26):
So I think that's like such a good
example of like one way that's,it is a no sense contemplative,
right?
It's self observation.
It's like, but it's, you know,not sitting on the, sitting down
and like meditating or somethinglike that.
Hunter Mobley (40:41):
Exactly.
No, you're so right.
I mean, gosh, they're probably,I can hardly think of a better
practice for a five maybe than,than horseback riding, you know?
And that's what, um, I wantpeople through this book, two,
to see contemplativespirituality and contemplative
practice as something biggerthan just silence and solitude.
It there.
(41:02):
There are principles of silenceand solitude and stillness in
contemplation, and those can bewonderful practices.
But, um, I know people who,their contemplative practice is
working a jigsaw puzzle.
It, it's, it's a way of pullingsomething apart and putting
something together and there'sintention behind it and it's,
(41:23):
it's.
It's doing, it's it.
They're, they're putting theirhands to the plow, to something,
you know, and with the rightintention, to the right spirit.
That can be a contemplativepractice.
Horseback riding can be thisbeautiful contemplative practice
when we engage with someintention to let go, to learn
something new to.
(41:43):
Challenge our traditional waysof seeing to be open to surprise
and surrender.
That's a fundamentallycontemplative posture.
And, um, so many things likeyou're describing can, can fit
the bill for that beyond justsometimes what we picture as
maybe sitting silently in achair and meditating or engaging
(42:06):
in stillness or centeringprayer.
Those all belong too.
But it's, it's bigger than justthat I.
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I wonder how you wouldcounsel somebody who's brand new
to this and they're justbeginning, you know, their
spiritual journey, specificallyusing the Enneagram and in
contemplative practices.
Where do they start?
Hunter Mobley (42:29):
They start that.
I love that question.
Gosh, what I would encouragesomeone who is saying, you know,
I'm interested in the Enneagramand I'm interested in this idea
or posture of contemplation,where do I begin?
Um, I would say begin with apractice that we, in spiritual
circles call centering prayer.
(42:51):
Centering prayer and, and again,you can have all types of
theology and spiritualbackground and find your pathway
to hook into this, but centeringprayer is about sitting down for
20 minutes and setting anintention.
And the intention is simply tobe open to the presence and
(43:11):
activity of the holy that isunseen.
That's not about your presenceand your activity, but the
unseen presence and activity ofthe holy and letting go of
thoughts for 20 minutes and.
What that rewiring will do aftera prolonged period of, of daily
(43:32):
practice is it will teach youabout places you can go in your
body that are freed fromtraditional thinking and are
more spacious and roomy than ourclutter of mind.
That is usually where we live,and it will show you some deeper
(43:52):
places you can go in your bodyand, um.
That's the beginning.
That's the beginning.
Now then there are unlimitedcontemplative rhythms or
practices to pick up or try on.
But when you adopt somethingthat looks, which really is
centering prayer, is justfundamentally meditation with
some type of intention behindit.
(44:14):
so once you, once you practiceand adopt that way of sitting
and letting go of thoughts.
Engaging with more innerspaciousness than you previously
knew existed in your body andyour heart and your mind, then
that's where now all of a suddenanything can become
(44:37):
contemplative of you riding thehorse, working the jigsaw
puzzle, you know, walking downthe street because now you have
this new place that you know howto get to in your soul.
And, um, you practice that inmany ways through centering
prayer.
So that's, that's where I wouldencourage people to start.
And there's, there's so muchthat you can do, um, and go get,
(45:00):
if you are a spiritual person,you can find all sorts of things
about centering prayer and, andlearn that if.
If the idea of spirituality justis a bridge too far for someone,
then you go pick up a meditationpractice that is really armed to
engage you with the same innerspaciousness.
(45:22):
And um, that's the startingplace I would say.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:26):
Yeah.
It's such a good one and, and Ithink.
So many of these practices thatare so helpful are the ones that
are like simple
Hunter Mobley (45:36):
Yeah, I'd say they're simple.
They're not easy.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think even as a three,like once I started becoming
more committed to meditation,and for a while, I'll be honest,
I've been out of the practicefor a while, but when I was
doing it regularly, I did seesuch a massive difference I
think.
That feels like totally oppositeto type three in a lot of ways,
(46:00):
but I hear from a lot of fivesthat their brains can just not
settle down for that.
And do you have any specialguidance for, you know, those
mind types like 5, 6, 7, whohave a really hard time with
Hunter Mobley (46:14):
Oh yeah.
Whoever really had a hard timekind of engaging.
Yes.
You know?
Um.
It is hard for all of us, butyou're right, it the to settle
down thoughts and kind ofrelease our just inner reliance
on thinking and all the innerconflict that's always going on,
(46:35):
you know, in our head and in ourbrains is, is challenging.
And so I, what I encouragepeople to do is, is use breath
work.
Um, and so breath work is reallyabout centering your.
Attention.
Your attention.
I've talked about intention, butnow I'm talking about attention
center.
(46:56):
Your attention on your breath,on your breathing, and anytime
thoughts come.
Let'em go.
And, and the way that you canlet them go is by re-engaging
with the breath.
Just now put your focussomewhere different.
Put your focus on breathing,breathing in, breathing out,
breathing in, breathing out,breathing in, breathing out.
Listen to it, hear it, feel it.
(47:18):
And that's a way ofrecalibrating from the world of
constant swirling thoughts.
Um, so I think breath work.
Is is really an important partof it.
And without breath work,sometimes we don't have another
way to just kind of, we needsomething else to engage our
(47:41):
attention on.
If we're trying to orient ourattention away from thoughts and
putting your attention on yourbreath is one good way to
practice that.
Stephanie Barron Hall (47:51):
Yeah, that's such, that's such a
helpful one.
I think the only thing that Iever add with that is like,
yeah, it's fine if it's likeyour mind's all over the place
for a while.
Like just
Hunter Mobley (48:03):
so is everybody else's.
You know, you're in good companyand this is something that we
practice and we try on and we,we know that it's a lifetime of
work.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:15):
Hmm.
Hunter Mobley (48:15):
And that there will be seasons in our life
where we will come to that sortof meditation or centering
prayer practice and it will justfeel like the, a warm blanket
wrapping around us.
And there will be seasons oflife where we will come to it
and it will feel like a struggleevery second of the way.
And that's part of being humanand living as well.
And we're gentle with ourselvesand we, the only thing that we
(48:40):
don't do is just.
Not return to it, you know,
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:46):
Yeah.
So keep coming back.
Hunter Mobley (48:48):
keep coming back.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:49):
Yeah.
Um, where can people find yourbook and find the rest of your
work?
Hunter Mobley (48:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Um, so you can find really me inall the places just through
Enneagram Hunter.
That's my website.
That's my Instagram handle.
That's my Facebook.
So enneagram hunter.com.
And.
On Instagram, but the bookLetting Go Finding You is, uh,
releasing May 13th.
I, it's funny, just as ofyesterday and today, people who
(49:17):
pre-ordered are already startingto get them trickling in, which
I don't, I don't know how thatall works, but people are
showing up some, sometimes withthem in their hands.
Um, but letting go, finding you,and you can find it on Amazon
anywhere.
You would buy books and, um.
It's there and it's really, it'sthis work, it's, it's memoir,
it's Enneagram, it'scontemplative spirituality, all
(49:39):
mashed up and um, because Ithink they're all really telling
the same story and that's whatit's trying to do.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:46):
Yeah.
I mean, I certainly enjoyed itand I think I was honestly a
little bit nervous'cause I waslike, I really have not dabbled
much in, you know, this sort ofspirituality in many years.
And I was like, I don't knowwhat I'm gonna find.
And I, so yeah, I, I really,really enjoyed it.
Um, so I really hope ourlisteners will pick it up.
(50:09):
I have two final questions I ask
Hunter Mobley (50:10):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (50:11):
Um, first one is, tell me about a book
that has helped you refresh youor shaped you in the last year.
Hunter Mobley (50:18):
Hmm.
a book that has helped me,shaped me, refresh me in the
last year.
you know, one of, I, I read alot and I read fiction.
I'll tell you the.
One of the most importantfiction books that I read this
in the past year, it was calledThis Tender Land.
And, um, it is by, uh, Waltersomething.
(50:42):
We'll find it and, and you cantell all your people, um, once
we Google.
But this Tender Land and it is astory, is a fictional story
about, uh, one of the really.
Important and heartbreakingperiods of our nation's history
where, many.
Native American indigenouspeople were, uh, there was a
(51:04):
goal to mainstream and, um, tosend them children to schools
and orphanages and places thatwould really, uh, bring them
into more of a, what we thoughtof as American culture and, and
some real sad atrocities andsome beautiful, uh, lives that,
that emerged through thatseason.
(51:25):
It was.
It was beautiful, this tenderland.
I, I love fiction, I lovestories, I love storytelling.
So, um, that's something that'smeant a lot to me lately.
Stephanie Barron Hall (51:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, I will check that out.
and final question.
Tell me a piece of advice thathas really stuck with you.
Hunter Mobley (51:42):
I was thinking about this today when I was
having a conversation with mybrother about a, a life
transition that he's goingthrough, and I told him one of
the most fundamentallyimportant, uh, principles to me
that I've learned from Quakerspirituality is the idea that
way will open and way willclose, and that it is an act of
(52:07):
violence against self and theholy to.
Force things into being and thatwe should pay a lot more
attention in our lives in termsof what we, decisions we make,
or discernment that we're doing,to what way is opening and what
(52:27):
way is closing.
And I try to think about thatoften and, and lean in to the
way that opens and, and allowthe way that closes to close.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:37):
Mm-hmm.
That's so challenging for somany of us who just like wanna
make it happen.
Hunter Mobley (52:45):
Absolutely.
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:46):
think we should add that to your like,
uh, practices for assertivetypes
Hunter Mobley (52:53):
that's
Stephanie Barron Hall (52:53):
I can form reality to fit my will.
Hunter Mobley (52:56):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And me too.
I've got a big three wing.
I can do it too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (53:01):
yeah.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me today.
This has been really lovely tochat about your book.
and.
just about the Enneagram andyour story with it.
So I really appreciate youjoining me today.
Um, and I hope everyone willgrab, letting go finding you.
Hunter Mobley (53:18):
Thank you so much, Stephanie.
What a treat for me.
I appreciate it.
Steph Barron Hall (53:22):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
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and review.
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Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
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(53:43):
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I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
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this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(54:03):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.