July 22, 2025 • 48 mins
This week on Enneagram in Real Life, Stephanie Barron Hall interviews Dr. Camden Morgante, a licensed clinical psychologist and author of Recovering from Purity Culture. Dr. Morgante defines purity culture and discusses related, harmful aspects associated with fear, shame, and control. She also breaks down common myths based on her research, and gives insight into how purity culture affects each Enneagram type. This discussion provides valuable context for understanding past experiences and practical initial steps for healing to reconstruct physical intimacy ethics based on personal values.
The book is out now! Grab a copy of Recovering from Purity Culture here.
Download Dr. Camden’s guide, How Purity Culture Affects Your Enneagram Type, here!
Find the full show notes here: https://www.ninetypes.co/blog/dr-camden-purity-culture
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📱Dr. Camden's Facebook: facebook.com/drcamden
🔗 Connect with Steph!
💻 Website: https://ninetypes.co/
📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ninetypesco/
🎥Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@stephbarronhall
Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Camden (00:00):
a personal conviction decision, discernment or values
(00:03):
of, yeah, of waiting untilmarriage for sex.
is not purity culture.
It's when that is not a choiceor decision.
When it's coerced out of fearand control, that's when it
becomes purity culture.
and so I try to guide people ina process of reconstructing
their sexual ethic based ontheir values.
One that's congruent with theirvalues and doesn't have to
follow either hookup culture,since that's often what's
(00:26):
offered to us as an alternativeor this sexual ethic based on
shame, which is purity culture.
Hello and welcome to Enneagramin Real Life, the podcast where
we explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BarronHall, and on today's episode I
(00:50):
have a really interesting topicfor us.
So this episode is a bit of anany adjacent episode.
We are gonna talk about theguest's type and how she found
her type and all of that type ofstuff.
But this topic is actually moreso about the concept of purity
culture and exploring what thatactually means and how it
(01:11):
impacts us.
So you've heard in the past thatI've shared that I grew up in,
some church experiences that.
I really emphasize things likepurity culture.
And while I'm not in any ofthose situations anymore, this
feels like a relevant topicbecause so many people I know
and folks I've spoken with or,or talked with who listen to the
(01:32):
podcast, have discussed how thistopic impacts their mental and
emotional health.
So we're really talking aboutthis question of what is it like
to heal from purity culturewithout losing your faith?
Because you know, some people,they choose to walk away from
their faith, and some peopledon't want that.
And so, today's guest is here totalk about what it's like to
keep your faith and recover frompurity culture.
(01:54):
So Dr.
Camden Ganti is a licensedclinical psychologist with
nearly 15 years of experience asa therapist and college
professor.
In addition to her privatetherapy practice, she is a
writer, speaker, and coach onissues of relationships,
sexuality, trauma, and faith.
Her first book Recovering fromPurity Culture, released in
(02:14):
2024.
Dr.
Camden lives in Knoxville,Tennessee with her husband and
their daughter and son.
Learn more about Camden on herwebsite, www.drcamden.com.
Dr.
Camden's book is calledRecovering From Purity Culture,
and she also has a freebie guideon her website called How Purity
Culture Affects Your EnneagramType.
(02:35):
So.
So make sure to check that out.
I have the link for that in theshow notes as well.
So whether this whole purityculture concept impacts you or
doesn't, this will be a reallyinteresting episode to discuss,
whether you're a six or youknow, a six or whether you are
just curious about what it'slike to change your perspective
on something like purityculture.
(02:56):
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Dr.
Camden Ganti.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:02):
Well, Dr.
Camden Ganzi, welcome to thepodcast.
Camden (03:05):
Thank you, Steph.
I'm glad to be here.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:07):
Yeah.
Um, I'm excited to chat with youtoday about Purity Culture and
your book.
before we dive into any of that,I'd love to talk about the
Enneagram a little bit and justtell me about your journey with
the Enneagram and how you foundyour type.
Camden (03:20):
Okay.
Yeah, I started studying it afew years ago.
It was probably like 2019 or so,um, just by hearing about it on
podcasts, so just listening topodcasts and I was really
intrigued by it.
Of course, I'm a psychologist,so I'd been trained and like
different kind of personalityassessments, but what I really
liked about the Enneagram wasthat it got to your motivations.
(03:41):
Rather than just externalbehavior.
So I felt like it got deeper andit also really focused on
strengths and um, and growth andhealth.
And I liked that rather thanjust focusing on like what was
wrong about your personality.
So yeah, so I listened to a lotof podcasts and started to
identify with a couple ofdifferent types.
And then I read some books, um,you know, read the Road back to
(04:04):
You kind of.
Was a, a good intro into it andthen several other books since
then to try to get deeper.
Um.
Yeah, and I landed on, um, sixWing five, so that, that's my
type.
And, um, very much, it's verymuch helped me as a person and
in my marriage.
It's helped us a lot tounderstand each other better.
(04:24):
And then it's helped me in mypractice to understand my
clients better.
It's become a standard question.
I ask all my clients, do youknow your Enneagram type?
If so, what is it?
And it helps us to really.
Make the most of their strengthsand also understand their
desires and their, the lens thatthey kind of look through, um,
at times.
And also really helps to know ifthey lean towards like gut, head
(04:46):
or heart.
You know, shame, fear, anger,like I find those, um, tools
really helpful.
So yeah, it's just been reallygood for me personally and
professionally.
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:55):
Yeah.
Um, I'm curious about the typingspecifically as a six because I
know many sixes and I work witha lot of sixes, and there is
this desire for certainty.
Um, and so sometimes it's likethey wanna feel certain about
their type, and I'm like, well,unfortunately I cannot give you
(05:17):
certainty because.
You know, it can just be reallychallenging.
So what was that process likefor you?
Like how long did it take you?
What other types did yougravitate toward?
Camden (05:28):
Um, yeah, I think there was, there's always a few that
you have a couple ofcharacteristics of or can relate
to, and then there's a few Icould immediately, you know,
cross off the list.
Um, I think I identified quite abit with a one, um, two and, um,
following rules and being,having an inner critic and being
kind of hard on myself.
So I identify with that and, butas I looked into.
(05:51):
Um, like, am I one or am I asix?
I learned that six wing fivescan often look like once, maybe
there's, there's more of that,um, following of the rules or
wanting, um, knowledge to helpguide us.
Um, and really being able todistinguish between the inner
critic and the inner committeehelped me land on six, Yeah,
(06:12):
it's not so much, I've movedaway a lot from the
perfectionist and the CRIcritical of myself, but it is
still some, a lot of self doubtthat I struggle with or looking
outside myself to externalbelief systems or leaders,
experts, authority structures tokind of guide me and tell me
where to go.
And the Enneagrams been a greattool to help me grow in that my
(06:33):
own, um.
Um, techniques and skills that Iuse in therapy have helped me as
I use them on myself, just tolook within and listen to myself
and be able to get in touch withmy intuition and trust,
self-trust.
So yeah, so that's really whathelped me kind of narrow it
down.
Stephanie Barron Hall (06:50):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, yeah, it's funny I lean moreinto subtypes versus the wings.
Um, and so I think the way thatyou're describing that
expression of six sounds a lotlike social six to me.
I don't know if that subtyperesonates for you.
Um, but I.
Married to a social six.
And it's so interesting, likeseeing the way that, like the
(07:14):
ideological authority concept,um, plays out in that, that
subtype and how it really doeslook like type one.
I mean, he came on the podcastbefore as a one
Camden (07:25):
Oh, wow.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:25):
and, and so it does look very one-ish,
because I think for socialsixes, the fear can be buried.
Camden (07:32):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I'm also.
Probably a little bit more of acounterphobic sex than, than a
phobic one.
Like, you know, I do kind ofoften go after the things that
I'm scared of, like writing andpublishing a book, um, and
putting myself out there.
And so that can be, can kind oftrip you up with typing too.
But you're right, I, I am asocial, um, a social sex.
(07:53):
And so having community andhaving relationships and being a
part of a group or groupbelonging is really important to
me.
Um.
And so that kind of relates tothe topic we'll be talking about
today and how all of that is,was kind of, you know,
threatened or in flux becauseof, yeah, because of changes in
my beliefs and faith.
(08:13):
Um.
But yeah, just being able tohonor your your subtype I think
is helpful too.
Like I realized last year I'dbeen working out at home doing
yoga at home for a long time andI joined a yoga studio'cause I
realized like I'm a social six.
Like I need that social.
Um, it provides so muchaccountability and just is more
encouraging and motivating tome, and I can get outta my head
(08:35):
more easily when I'm in thegroup fitness environment, like
with yoga rather than at home.
So.
I still do it at home sometimes,but just being able to like
honor that, that was like a needfor me.
Stephanie Barron Hall (08:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
because.
I am a social repressed subtype.
So, I really like the in-personas well.
you know, but it's sometimesit's like, oh, I don't wanna be
around people.
Like there is like that part ofit too, where it's like, oh, I
(09:06):
don't wanna be like a part of agroup.
Camden (09:09):
Okay.
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (09:11):
and I think, I think it's just funny
how those different instinctsplay out.
Um, so what about your journeywith becoming a psychologist and
then deciding to then reallyspecialize in purity, culture
recovery and religious trauma?
Like what inspired you?
I mean, when I hear thosethings, I'm like, oh, there's a
story there.
Camden (09:31):
Yeah, there usually is.
Um, in school we said, researchis me search.
You know, that the, it wasusually, um, motivated by
something in our own personallife and I went into psychology
wanting to study relationships,feeling like my family
upbringing impacted me sosignificantly.
I wanted to study marriage andfamily and, um.
(09:52):
Yeah, all of those relationshipdynamics.
Um, and then in school Ispecialized in couples therapy
in grad school and sexuality.
I took extra classes in that.
And um, yeah.
And then I never really set outto be a sex therapist or talk
about sex so much like I do now.
But I started realizing like,how.
Some of these, what I would nowcall toxic beliefs and myths of
(10:14):
purity culture affected me howsome of the rigidity in black
and white thinking in my faithtradition had negatively
impacted me and also impactingmy clients.
I was seeing the effects in myclients and yeah, I wanted a way
to kind of reconcile that withwhat a healthy faith expression
could look like, um, for peopleand to kind of.
(10:36):
Present that both andperspective.
And so I started writing andspeaking on social media mostly.
Um, and that like evolved over avery long period it took to get
to writing the book andpublishing in October, was to
present that both andperspective of both.
Here's how we heal from and moveaway from, and challenge and
dismantle these toxic beliefswhile also holding onto the
(10:58):
parts of our faith that reallydo feel nourishing and
life-giving and true and good.
so that was.
Yeah, that was my, my missionand focus.
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:06):
Yeah.
And that's so helpful because Iknow as somebody who was also
raised in purity culture, um, itcan be really hard to reconcile,
well, how do I wanna have adifferent perspective now?
And for some people, like theydo.
Feel like their faith is areally important part of who
they are and they wanna keepthat, and integrate that.
And so how can you really dothat, when you don't have
(11:29):
resources to help guide you?
So that's so useful.
But I'm curious because some ofour listeners might not even be
familiar with the concept ofpurity culture.
It feels really natural.
Right?
To me, when I hear that, I'mlike, I know exactly what you
mean.
Like, You know, I'm thinkinglike Josh Harris and all these
things like I kiss dating,goodbye.
but tell us, how do you definepurity culture and what is the
(11:52):
impact that it has?
Camden (11:54):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I define it as a largelyevangelical sociopolitical
movement that peaked in the1990s to two thousands that
attempted to persuade youngpeople to be abstinence,
sexually abstinent untilmarriage, using shame and fear
as the tools of control.
So.
A belief in sexual abstinencebefore marriage is something
that's present in othercultures, time periods or faith
(12:16):
traditions.
But the purity culture that I'mspeaking and you know, writing
about was specifically this, um,this very rigid evangelical
expression of it and the culturethat grew up around it.
And particularly whenmillennials like me, were, were
teenagers with Joshua Harris.
I kissed dating goodbye andthere were rings that we wore.
Um, some people made pledges towait until marriage.
(12:38):
Some people attended rallies orhad purity balls with their
fathers.
Like all of those were thecultural parts that people
outside of evangelicalism mightnot be familiar with.
What they will be familiar withthough is probably abstinence
only sex education because, Inthe early two thousands that
received, um, government fundingeven in the public schools.
(12:59):
And so those of us who were ineven public school at the time,
were hearing some version ofpurity culture.
Maybe not a specificallyreligious one, but a don't have
sex.
just say no kind of, um,, very,big focus on just abstaining
without the holistic sexeducation in order to make
better informed decisions.
So, yeah, so I think, Purityculture is gonna be like, we
(13:21):
probably speak the same languagebecause we grew up in it, but
it's also gonna be familiar topeople if even if you didn't
grow up in this faith tradition.
Stephanie Barron Hall (13:29):
Yeah, and I didn't realize that, it got
government funding.
I mean, I grew up in Texas, soin Texas we had abstinence only
sex education.
But I'm curious, was thatpervasive throughout the
country?
Camden (13:41):
That's the research I saw that under the George W.
Bush administration, it receivedlike national funding, um, and
then was found to be largelyineffective.
So they kind of dropped off andmoved away from that.
the research found that like itwas largely ineffective in
meeting its goals.
The biggest effect it had wasthat it tended to delay sex for
18 months, like, um.
(14:03):
If you went through abstinenceonly education, you were more
likely to wait a little longerto have sex for the first time.
But it did not prevent teenpregnancy or STIs or,
necessarily cause everyone towait until marriage.
So, yeah, it um, that's why Isay, you know, largely did not
meet its goals.
I,
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:19):
Yeah, I mean, somebody was selling a lot
of those weird Velcro gloves outthere that they, you know, used
to demonstrate like, oh, nowyou're ruined because, you know,
you got velcroed together,whatever.
So what are some of the mythsthen, of purity culture?
Like obviously one of them itsounds like is that, oh, it
prevents teen pregnancy, andyou're saying actually the
(14:40):
research doesn't bear that out.
What are some other things thatwere myths and formed us as
individuals?
I.
Camden (14:46):
Yeah.
In my book I, I specificallyname and describe five of the
most pervasive myths in, um.
In like religious purity culturespecifically.
And one is the damaged goodmyth, which you're alluding to
when you say the velvet gloves.
Um, you know, just the objectlessons that were often used
were like you spit in a cup ofwater and then pass it around
(15:08):
and everybody spits in it, andthat's representing like the
effects of multiple sexpartners.
And you're gonna be this dirtycup of water that no one wants,
or you're a chewed up piece ofgum or a ripped up piece of
paper.
Like those were some of thedemonstrations that were used.
In schools or churches orrallies, and that sends the
message that you're damagedgoods and that you should be
ashamed that, um, you're brokenand, and dirty and used and no
(15:30):
one's gonna want you.
Um, and that is, is somethingthat like deeply affects a lot
of people.
Um, whether they had consensualpremarital sex, whether they
were sexually abused even, andfeeling like they're damaged and
broken.
Um, yeah.
So it affects a lot of peopleand leads to a lot of shame.
Stephanie Barron Hall (15:48):
I'm curious how you work with people
who are like, they know, okay, Iam carrying all this shame.
Or maybe they don't know.
'cause I think sometimes wedon't know how much shame we're
carrying and then.
They come into your office andthey're like, I wanna keep my
faith, but I, this part of itfeels integral to the faith that
(16:13):
I was taught, and yet it is sopainful.
Camden (16:16):
Hmm.
Yeah, we first, we work onidentifying the difference
between shame and guilt and.
When guilt comes from a healthysense of we acted out of
alignment with our own valuesversus shame is when I fear
social rejection or disapprovalbecause I violated my social
(16:36):
group's values, not my ownvalues.
so we really work to distinguishthat and, and help them find
like healthier and moreaccepting social groups and
communities like.
Brene Brown says like, empathyand connection is the antidote
to shame.
So being able to reach out andfind, empathy and, and forms of
connection with people infaith-based settings or in
(16:59):
non-faith based settings whereyou feel accepted and you feel
like you're not gonna be judgedor rejected.
That's one of the ways to, towork towards healing the shame.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
and I'm, I'm curious more aboutthe Enneagram because I know
that you've talked about thisbefore, where, the overlap
between purity culture and theEnneagram, and there are certain
types that are normally peggedas like, those are the ones that
have shame, but.
I, in my own experience, likeworking with a lot of different
types of people, I've seen shameas being a a lot more present
(17:31):
in, in many types.
So I'm, I'm curious if you cangive us just like a brief
rundown of how purity cultureaffects each type.
Camden (17:38):
Sure.
Yeah.
And certainly none of us areimmune to shame, unfortunately.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:42):
Yeah.
Camden (17:43):
Um, but yeah, looking at like type one, I think a person,
I have a lot of type one clientsand I, I love working with them
'cause they're, they're veryconscientious and um, and they
very much wanna self-improve.
But I think the way that purityculture or more broadly like.
Fundamentalist religious, um,teachings can affect them, is
(18:04):
that they have thisperfectionism to the rules,
this, this kind of good girlpersona that they, they wanna
keep.
Um, and that can lead to rigidexpectations on themselves and
judgment of others.
Um, one of the myths that I namein my book is called the
Spiritual Barometer Myth, wherewe measure our spirituality by
our purity or virginity.
(18:26):
and this can lead to a lot of.
Like ugly pride and judgment ofothers if you do uphold, um,
those beliefs.
And so I think for a type one orany type who, who does uphold
those beliefs, they can oftenfall into judging others.
I.
with type two, I think it'svery, um, common that they could
be unaware of their own sexualdesires, their own body and
(18:48):
pleasure.
And because they're so focusedon others and giving to others,
and that's something that's I.
Honestly praised and encouragedin purity culture, especially
for women.
Purity culture is very embeddedin patriarchy and so, um, the
beliefs are very patriarchal.
It's very much about womenserving men's sexual needs.
Um, I call it the gatekeepersmyth, like women are the
(19:09):
gatekeepers of men's sexualityand so a type two woman
especially is gonna besusceptible to over focusing on
her.
Male partner's needs, um,instead of like, what feels good
to her or her own body andexperience.
And then for type three, becausethere can be often more focused
(19:29):
on like image, um, and maybemeeting others' expectations to
look good or to gain approval,um, they might also be attracted
to the formulas of purityculture.
Like, you know, because whenyou're an achiever.
you know, if I do x, Y happens,you know, and, and that formula,
or if I can work hard to achievethis goal or outcome that I
(19:51):
want.
purity culture is very full offormulas and false promises of
if you wait, then you're gonnaget, um, a fairytale marriage
and.
Spouse, or if you wait, thenyour, then your sex life and
marriage is gonna be amazing.
And that's not always the case.
Um, which can lead to a lot ofdisappointment and
disillusionment for, for all ofus.
But, but that's what came tomind when I thought of a type
(20:12):
three, is that, just beingattracted to the, that formula
and then being disappointed whenit doesn't happen.
For a type four, they can oftenfeel like too, too much and not
enough at the same time.
Um, or blame themselves or feellike there's something deficient
in them feeling flawed andfeeling shame.
I think that's the type that'sprobably most susceptible to the
(20:34):
shame of purity culture.
Um, particularly if they did notadhere to purity culture's
expectations, um, to feel likethey're more susceptible to the
damaged Good myth.
Did you wanna comment on any ofthese since you were the
Enneagram expert, or you want meto just keep going?
Stephanie Barron Hall (20:49):
No, I mean these, these sound great.
I was thinking, for the ones andtwos in particular, I was kind
of thinking about one for typetwo about the modesty piece.
Um, and how that play could playin for a two.
I I'm sure that there'ssomething there.
and then for a type one, evenlike the self-judgment, once
they're like supposed to flipthe switch when they get
Camden (21:10):
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:11):
and how challenging that could be.
Camden (21:13):
Yeah, I think when you're real attached to this
identity of being a good girl,or that means pure, and pure
means abstinent, then when youget married, I especially see
this in some of my youngerclients who their virginity was
a very big part of theiridentity.
Um, and they like had a purityring and gave it to their
husband on their wedding day,you know, and then they get
(21:34):
married and they're like, am Istill pure?
You know, there's, there's thatloss of identity from Uh, from,
yeah, from things changing and,and having difficulty flipping
the switch sometime.
And that's a good point aboutthe twos and modesty.
Um, yeah, a lot of modestymessages of you have to cover up
to prevent men from beingtempted or lusting or stumbling
(21:55):
is the term often used.
Um, so I can see how that wouldaffect the tube in particular.
Stephanie Barron Hall (22:01):
Yeah.
Camden (22:02):
So moving, um, forward then with the five, what I
thought of here is just likethey're very logical and maybe
like the black and white rulesthat purity culture offers.
But then I also thought,because.
The fives have like that lowenergy and that need to recharge
at times that the pressure toalways be sexually available or
(22:23):
on for your spouse, especially,you know, for women, um, may be
really overwhelming to a five.
For the sixes like me, um,purity culture is very
attractive because we wannafollow the rules and authority.
We look outside ourselves for abelief system that we can trust
or for an authority that givesus certainty and security.
And it definitely did.
(22:43):
Like for me, this.
This belief system gave me a lotof security and a lot of sense
of I'm doing the right thing andI'm gonna get the reward for it.
Um, and I call that thefairytale myth because when it
didn't happen for me in thetiming that I expected, or that
I felt like I was promised, Iwas really disappointed and felt
really, dejected.
You know, just like what's thepoint in all of this?
(23:05):
Yeah, so a lot of self-doubt.
Then as a six for the sevens,they may rebel against the rules
and not like those constraintsof purity culture.
They may want the freedom.
but then conversely, once youget married, if you have trouble
flipping a switch when you getmarried, to.
This mind blowing sex that youwere promised.
If that doesn't happen, therecan be a lot of disappointment
(23:28):
in that for anyone, certainly.
But I think for, when I think ofthe sevens and just that desire
for pleasure and to avoid pain,that can be really painful and
and unexpected.
I
Stephanie Barron Hall (23:39):
and it, it just blows my mind too, that
like in everything in life, Ithink knowledge and practice
really help.
Camden (23:46):
exactly.
Stephanie Barron Hall (23:47):
So like, how are you?
I'm sorry.
Like how are you gonna like havethis mind blowing experience
when you have no knowledge andno practice?
It does not make sense, but thisculture tells us this is the
way.
Camden (24:00):
right.
Yeah.
Like I, I say sex is a learnedskill.
Like anything in a relationshiplike communication, you have to
work at it.
It's gonna take practice, it'sgonna take skills, education
time, like it's not somethingthat just happens automatically,
but there's a lot of those emptypromises in.
High control religion or infundamentalist belief systems,
there's a lot of those.
If you do X God will do Y foryou.
(24:22):
Um,
Stephanie Barron Hall (24:23):
The cosmic vending machine.
Camden (24:25):
yes, exactly.
Yeah.
yeah.
So they just, they applied thatto, when it came to sex for a
type eight, they may rebelagainst the control, the
controlling nature of purityculture.
Um.
But then I also thought, youknow, once they get married,
they could become controlling ordomineering in their marriage or
in their sex life if they're nota healthy eight.
(24:47):
You know, and if they,especially for men who give into
these stereotypes in, um,impurity culture, that they're
the sexual aggressors and their,their wife is supposed to be
there to meet their needs.
Um.
Yeah, so that could easily turninto entitlement.
and then for the nine, I thinkan overfocus on your spouse and
serving them, rather thanyourself and being in touch with
(25:08):
your own, um, body and your owndesires and just kind of losing
yourself and the other person,can often happen.
And that can then happen in thebedroom too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (25:18):
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
And one of the like, reallynegative impacts that I have
personally seen, obviously thisis not research, this is not
data, this is just my anecdote,but, I went to a very
conservative, Christian schoolfor undergrad and you know,
everyone was just gettingmarried, left and right because
(25:39):
like when you're under these.
Like when you are a human beingand you have, you know, whatever
desires, and then you know,these are the rules that you
have to wait till marriage.
People were getting married likein a year or less.
And then about like, let's see,so maybe six, seven years ago it
(25:59):
was like left and right.
All of the people from collegewere getting divorced and I
think.
That there's just so much tothat where it's like, again,
rushing because we have thisdesire and like we think that
everything will be fine'causethat's what we've been told.
That's what we've been taught.
And for it to not pan out, canbe devastating.
(26:21):
Um.
Camden (26:21):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm so curious what college youwent to.
'cause I went to a Christianundergrad too that I call a ring
by spring school.
It
Stephanie Barron Hall (26:29):
Yep.
Bring by Springer Your moneyback, though they would never
give your money back.
Camden (26:34):
Yeah.
But it was very much.
Overemphasized marriage andYeah, almost more of an emphasis
than the degree than that youwere getting.
And um, and that was part ofhow, how I was affected was when
that didn't happen for me.
I got my heart broken instead ofgetting engaged.
and that MRS degree didn'thappen.
It was just like, well, why haveI followed all the rules?
(26:55):
Why have I done all of this, um,if I'm not gonna get this
promised reward?
but I agree with you, Steph.
I saw people getting marriedand.
Very young ages, very short timeperiods of knowing each other
and dating.
and then, yeah, you wait about adecade after everybody graduates
and, and a lot of people havegotten divorced or, you know,
they're on onto their secondmarriage.
And I wonder.
(27:16):
Yeah, I wonder about thatsometimes.
Um, for my book, I interviewed afew women who were divorced,
and, or remarried because Iwanted that perspective.
Um, wanted to understand thatall of them had gotten married
at like 20 and divorced within afew years, and they all had said
some version of, yeah, we werejust told as long as you marry a
Christian who's waiting, likeyou're just.
(27:37):
Everything's gonna be great.
Your marriage is gonna bewonderful.
And then they ended up in someof them abusive marriages or
unhealthy ones, or ones wheretheir, um, spouse was
unfaithful.
Um, yeah, so suffered a lot ofconsequences from not having all
of the tools in order to make a,a healthy decision on a, on a
spouse.
Stephanie Barron Hall (27:57):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really fortunate to be
married to a six.
So I, uh, we started dating in2010 and we got married in 2014
and people around us were like,what are you guys doing?
Four years?
You know, we've been outtacollege a couple years and we're
like, I mean, I.
I mean, I think I too, you know,as a three, I'm like, let's you
know, next thing, come on.
Let, let's move on, move along.
(28:17):
But, uh, being married to a six,he's like, no, I really wanna
think this through.
I wanna be certain, like, Ireally wanna process this.
Um, and not ever gonna jump thegun.
And I think that's really goodthat for us, you know, that we,
everyone has their differentstory and everyone's story is
like.
Has its own, you know, benefitsand, and downfalls, whatever.
(28:40):
But, it, it was reallyinteresting just to see the
perspective of other people andlike how their opinions of us
for, you know, quote unquotewaiting so long.
And in reality it was just likea normal timeframe, right?
Yeah.
Camden (28:55):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting.
And I, I got married when I wasalmost 30, which is for some
people and in some regions ofthe country, very normal in my
culture and in the south where Ilive very late, you know, that
was very old to be gettingmarried.
Um, and I certainly felt theweight of that'cause I'd been
single for many years whileeveryone around me had gotten
(29:17):
married.
You know, all my friends, um.
Yeah, so I think, yeah.
It's just your culture.
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:23):
yeah, and I think again, like because of
purity culture that'scommunicated to you, oh, you
must be damaged goods.
Camden (29:29):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:30):
Because again, so much of your worth is,
is wrapped up in whether or notsomebody wants to marry
Camden (29:35):
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:36):
'cause you've been told that if you're
a godly, if you are pure,somebody will wanna marry you.
Of course.
And it's, that's not reality.
Camden (29:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That, so I, I definitely feltlike something was wrong with me
that I was single for so long.
But like you were saying aboutyou guys dated for four years
and you're really glad that youtook that time.
Like, I, we didn't date thatlong, but I was, I'm glad I was
a little bit older.
Like I felt like that was a hugeadvantage.
I was already a psychologistwhen we met and had all this
(30:08):
training and so.
I didn't find myself, um,suffering from some of the
effects of purity culturebecause I think I had, I had
gotten sex education from mytraining program and was a
little bit older.
It allowed me to develop moreemotional health and maturity
than I would've had if, had Igotten married in college like I
expected to.
I.
Stephanie Barron Hall (30:28):
Okay, this, this makes me like have to
ask, you know, devil's advocate,are there any benefits?
'cause people might be listeningto this and being like, well,
you just had a bad experienceand you're just railing against
this thing.
That actually is really good.
Are there any benefits like tothis type of purity culture
(30:48):
context?
Camden (30:49):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So I'll tell you what theresearch found.
Yeah.
In qualitative research, whichis when you're interviewing
people and getting theirresponses, um, some women noted
that following purity culturehelped them have more trust in
their marriage, feel safer intheir marriage, and closer to
their spouse.
And so they felt some benefitsin that.
(31:09):
Every time I speak about this,um.
Like I've spoken and giventrainings to therapists about
this topic.
There's always someone in therewho's from, not from the South
where we are, who said like, youknow this, this.
This kind of dating practice wasactually really good for me
because where I grew up, um, youknow, hookup culture or, um,
that was the norm.
(31:30):
And so this helped me make morethoughtful decisions and slow
things down and not put pressureon every relationship had to
include sex, and so they alwaysnote.
I always have someone who willnote some of those positive
benefits.
So if someone tells me they hada positive experience with
purity culture, I say, you know,I'm happy for you and I'm glad,
and certainly there can bebenefits to the decision to, to
(31:54):
wait to have sex until marriage.
Like that's a personal decisionthat I respect and honor.
But purity culture as a whole,the fear and control, the shame
that it induces, that is what Ifeel like I'm, I'm.
Okay.
Criticizing, rather than likethe personal values or personal
decision or even personalbenefit that someone felt, yeah.
(32:14):
So that's what we wanna payattention to.
Stephanie Barron Hall (32:16):
Yeah, because I think when I'm
thinking and I'm hearing, youknow, people making those types
of comments, to me it'sdifferent to have your own
personal sexual ethic and yourown values, like you're saying,
versus having this whole entireframework that is built on that
shame and control piece.
So like you're separating thosetwo concepts.
It's not necessarily purityculture, quote unquote, to wait
(32:39):
till marriage.
You can make whatever choice youfeel good about, but.
It's the problem is these otherextraneous pieces that are
really about the control.
Camden (32:51):
Right.
That's exactly what I say in mybook.
Is that a personal convictiondecision, discernment or values
of, of waiting or, um, yeah, ofwaiting until marriage for sex.
is not purity culture.
It's the.
It's when that is not a choiceor decision.
When it's coerced out of fearand control, that's when it
becomes purity culture.
(33:13):
Um, and so in my book, I try toguide people in a process of
reconstructing their sexualethic based on their values.
One that's congruent with theirvalues and doesn't have to
follow either hookup culture,since that's often what's
offered to us as an alternativeor this sexual ethic based on
shame, which is purity culture.
Stephanie Barron Hall (33:31):
Yeah.
What are some of those initialsteps that you recommend to
people who are beginning theirjourney of healing from this?
Camden (33:38):
Yeah, I think initial steps are always to recognize,
like, and be aware to increaseyour awareness of, um, what
purity culture is and of theways it may have affected you.
And then another initial stepwould be to connect with sources
of support, whether that's atherapist that's trained in this
area, or a coach or it's groups.
Online or in person who canprovide that empathy and support
(34:02):
to you and make you feel likeless alone?
Like, you know, a lot of myclients, like I said to you
earlier, like we speak, you andI might speak the same language
and me and my clients do, butthey might not know someone in
their actual life that speaksthe same language of, of purity
culture.
And so they feel a lot lessalone when I tell them.
Yeah, like this is not uncommon.
Um, I've had other clients saythis too, or, yeah, you're not
(34:24):
alone.
This, this is common in theresearch.
Like, um, that can feel veryvalidating.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:29):
Yeah.
it's funny because I, uh.
I'm really into like all thesedifferent YouTubers who talk
about these topics andoccasionally there will be one
who did not grow up in this andlike literally can't wrap their
mind around.
They're like, I understand thatthese people believe this, but I
don't understand why and Icannot articulate why, but I
(34:51):
just know that it was the waterI was swimming in growing up.
and so I think it's, it is souseful to have other people
around who.
You know, can talk about it onthe same level.
And like, you can makereferences like to certain
things like we did earlier.
Like, you know, I kiss datinggoodbye or, or whatever, the
purity balls or whatever.
And for people to have that,that contextual understanding of
(35:14):
what that means,
Camden (35:15):
Right.
So are these YouTubers sayinglike, they don't understand why
someone would follow this orbelieve this, or,
Stephanie Barron Hall (35:20):
it's more so like, they're like, wow,
that's wild.
Can't believe people, peoplethink this, And not in a
judgmental way, but in a way oflike, they're the outside
looking in and they're like,that's just really wild.
I, I never would've thought thator been taught that.
Camden (35:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so they can't imagine theways that it affects us then.
Um, you know, it's the samething when I watch a documentary
on the Duggar family, you know,which is a, a.
Just a community I did not growup in.
You know, that might seem reallyforeign to me, but once I watch
it, I can, it makes sense of whythese people might have turned
out the way they did.
(35:58):
Um, or like, I don't fearwearing something that's
sleeveless like that, that'sokay for me.
And that's never something I've,I've worried about.
But for somebody else.
That might feel really foreignto them or really wrong to them.
So much fear, um, that mightbring up for them.
So yeah, it's just puttingourself in other people's shoes
and trying to see how it makessense given their upbringing and
(36:18):
the messages they internalized.
Stephanie Barron Hall (36:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I recently read, uh,Jill Duggar's memoir
Camden (36:24):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (36:25):
and having so many shared messages
from childhood.
I was like, so many of thethings she said, I was like, oh
yeah, I totally get that.
Like, even though, you know, Iwore pants, like I played
sports, just, just a totallydifferent perspective.
Yeah.
Camden (36:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really, I liked herdocumentary, and it helped me
really understand what she wentthrough and where she's still,
how she's still healing.
Um, yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (36:50):
Do you differentiate, um, religious
trauma and sexual shame, andalong what lines?
Camden (36:59):
I think purity culture can be a form of religious
trauma and, um, purity cultureand sexual shame go hand in
hand.
I call shame the universalexperience of purity culture
because there's no one who comesoutta purity culture with who
doesn't have shame.
Um, but certainly religioustrauma can be broader.
There's many other practices orbeliefs or structures that can
(37:21):
cause religious trauma, andthat's a newer term for some
people.
But really it just means.
Paying attention and noting,noticing your body's response to
a particular religious practiceor structure or belief system.
Like if your body has atraumatic response, um, meaning
it is your body's kind ofrecoiling, or you go into fight
(37:43):
or flight mode.
Um, I have many clients who havethat kind of a response to sex
in their marriage, like they'remarried in a healthy marriage, a
loving spouse, they may saythey've never been sexually
abused, and yet they're, they'lltell me like, you know, why am
I.
Why is my body reacting likeI've been sexually abused?
Is there some sort of repressedtrauma or something?
And I'll say, you know, it canjust be purity culture.
(38:04):
It could just be that thesemessages have been so
internalized that your body hasa trauma response to the idea of
sex.
And so that can happen, um, youknow, with other types of
religious practices too.
Um, yeah.
So it's, it's a form of trauma.
It's valid and there are, youknow, therapists that are
trained in it and can help youthrough it.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:24):
Yeah.
are there daily practices orreflections that you suggest for
these people who areexperiencing this?
Camden (38:31):
Yeah, I think a daily practice to start with is to pay
attention and tune into yourbody, heart, mind, and soul.
Like often we've been trained toignore our body, kill the flesh
and de deny your body.
Or we've been trained that ourheart is wicked and deceitful
and emotions can't be trusted.
And so being able to tune intothese areas, um, notice how can
(38:53):
I honor my body today and honorits pace or what would calm my
mind today?
What feels calming or how can Ipay attention to and validate my
emotions?
Um, those are all questions and.
For daily practice that youcould ask yourself.
I ask myself some version ofthose questions, you know, every
day as I check in with myselfand say, you know, what care do
(39:14):
I need to, to give myself today?
Um, because we've been taught tofocus outside of ourselves,
whether that's looking foranswers or caring for others,
but being able to also turninward.
And for me, as a six, that'sgood to be able to turn inward
and listen to myself and notjust look outside of myself for
answers.
Stephanie Barron Hall (39:32):
yeah.
Well, and I also think about,um.
You know, the differentintelligence centers and, and
how we of the Enneagram and howwe have these different
responses.
And so body types being 8, 9, 1,heart types, 2, 3, 4, and then
mine types 5, 6, 7.
And as a heart type, I thinklike a year ago I was in therapy
(39:53):
and I realized like I don't everreally remember or recognize
that I like have anything belowlike.
Hip level like that I have legs.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I forget sometimes.
And just even the practice ofsitting and, and breathing and
(40:15):
like remembering like, okay, Ihave a full body here.
Like it can be so helpful.
And I think I've met a lot ofmind types who are the same.
Um, and like are like, I'm justahead on a stick.
Like I'm just.
Camden (40:27):
Yeah, I would say it's very easy for me to live in my
head, not in the world of.
Like fantasy or ideas, but moreso in the world of logic and
facts and plans.
Um, very easy for me to do that.
I'm least in touch with my bodyof the three centers.
My body would be the, the least.
Um.
A familiar one to me.
(40:49):
And so a practice of mindfulnessmeditation has also been really
helpful to me.
That's something I use in mytherapy practice, somatic, which
means like mind and bodytechniques to help us get in
touch with the body and, andtune into what's going on inside
my body.
Like those have all been reallyhelpful for me to start to tap
into that center of intelligencemore.
Stephanie Barron Hall (41:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So helpful.
okay, so tell us a little bitabout your book.
Who is it for and where can wefind it?
Camden (41:15):
the book is called Recovering from Purity Culture,
and it's available whereverbooks are sold.
Of course, Amazon Baker Books ismy publisher.
And who is it for?
Is really anybody who grew up inpurity culture and notices.
the impact and wants to start toheal from the effects.
I am a Christian, so I include alot of, um, Christian kind of
(41:36):
integrative strategies and toolstoo.
So it's gonna be probably mostapplicable to clients who want
a, um, a little bit of afaith-based perspective without
being full of gender stereotypesand rigid.
This is the one way, wedefinitely make space for, for
other, For other perspectives.
So, that's who the book is for.
And yeah, I've been, it's beennice to connect with my readers
(41:58):
and be able to share this morebroadly than with just my
clients.
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
I love that about books whereyou can just.
Tell somebody, this is where youcan find like this whole plan.
but I'm definitely gonna pick itup as well because even though I
don't share the same faith-basedperspective, I think I can
understand the language.
Um, and so, being able to kindof dismantle some of those
(42:22):
things, it's been a long timesince I, have really felt like
the stronghold of this concept,but I'm sure that it's still
there.
You know what I mean?
Camden (42:31):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I've had people who didn'tgrow up, in, in religion say
that they related to some ofthis too, and felt a lot of
healing through it.
And, and I've had people who.
Don't share my faith or, orvalues or religious beliefs, but
say like, the tools were stillreally helpful and could be
applied.
And, um, and that theyappreciated my, um, openness to,
(42:53):
to helping them figure out theirown values.
So, yeah, so that was my, my aimwith the book was not to provide
another, here's an experttelling you what you have to
believe, but to help you figureit out for yourself.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:04):
Yeah, for sure.
which is so helpful, right?
Because you know, a lot of thosehigh control religious things
say you can't figure it out foryourself.
You have to listen to expertsand you're turning that back
onto your reader.
Camden (43:16):
Yes.
That was my hope.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:18):
how can listeners connect with you?
Camden (43:20):
Yeah, you can connect with me on Instagram or Facebook
threads at Dr.
Camden, and then my website isdr camden.com.
That's Dr.
Camden.
Um, and yeah, you can check outmy book and I also offer online
coaching if you wanna look intothat.
And there's a free download onmy website how your Enneagram
type is affected by purityculture.
So if you want that, um, thatgoes into more detail of what
(43:43):
you and I talked about today.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:45):
all that will be linked in the show notes
too.
Um, so before I let you go, twolast questions.
First one is, tell me about abook that has helped you
refreshed you or shaped you inthe last year.
I.
Camden (43:57):
Well, it's hard to pick just one stuff because I'm a big
reader.
But as we're speaking abouttrauma and embodiment, I'm gonna
mention, um, strong like Waterby Andy Colbert.
she is a trauma therapist and Ihave learned so much from her
about trauma in the body and somany gentle healing practices,
ways to regulate your nervoussystem.
Um, so her book Strong LikeWater, has been a, a great
(44:19):
resource to me and one Irecommend a lot.
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:22):
Cool.
I will check that out.
I have not read that one, so
Camden (44:25):
Do you follow her
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:27):
I do.
Mm-hmm.
Camden (44:27):
online?
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:28):
Yeah, I really like her.
and then tell me a piece ofadvice that has really stuck
with you.
Camden (44:33):
Yeah, right now what I'm really focused on in my own
growth and healing and work is.
Re-parenting myself, like beingthis the healthiest parent that
I can be for my two kids.
So I think the advice that goodparenting starts with you, it
doesn't start with some.
Tool or strategy or timeout orany kind of discipline like, um,
(44:57):
or trick, um, mom hack.
It really starts with you andbeing healthy yourself.
And so that's something I'm, I'malways working on in myself.
There's a lot to heal from whenyou grow up in, um, this kind of
religious background.
there's a lot that had to, hasto be rethought as I think about
how I wanna teach my kids andwhat I wanna model to them.
But yeah, that's what came tomind.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:19):
Cool.
I love that.
I think that's awesome.
I mean, not that I knowanything, but I did recently
get, parenting from the Insideout by Dan Segal.
Camden (45:27):
Yes, I'm reading that right now.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:29):
cool.
Yeah, so I am excited to readthat, in the coming months.
So thank you so much for joiningme.
This has been really great, andI really hope everyone will
connect with you because, Ithink this topic is so
important.
Camden (45:40):
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
I
Steph Barron Hall (45:42):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
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(46:03):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
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Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
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(46:23):
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a personal conviction decision, discernment or values
(00:03):
of, yeah, of waiting untilmarriage for sex.
is not purity culture.
It's when that is not a choiceor decision.
When it's coerced out of fearand control, that's when it
becomes purity culture.
and so I try to guide people ina process of reconstructing
their sexual ethic based ontheir values.
One that's congruent with theirvalues and doesn't have to
follow either hookup culture,since that's often what's
(00:26):
offered to us as an alternativeor this sexual ethic based on
shame, which is purity culture.
Hello and welcome to Enneagramin Real Life, the podcast where
we explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BarronHall, and on today's episode I
(00:50):
have a really interesting topicfor us.
So this episode is a bit of anany adjacent episode.
We are gonna talk about theguest's type and how she found
her type and all of that type ofstuff.
But this topic is actually moreso about the concept of purity
culture and exploring what thatactually means and how it
(01:11):
impacts us.
So you've heard in the past thatI've shared that I grew up in,
some church experiences that.
I really emphasize things likepurity culture.
And while I'm not in any ofthose situations anymore, this
feels like a relevant topicbecause so many people I know
and folks I've spoken with or,or talked with who listen to the
(01:32):
podcast, have discussed how thistopic impacts their mental and
emotional health.
So we're really talking aboutthis question of what is it like
to heal from purity culturewithout losing your faith?
Because you know, some people,they choose to walk away from
their faith, and some peopledon't want that.
And so, today's guest is here totalk about what it's like to
keep your faith and recover frompurity culture.
(01:54):
So Dr.
Camden Ganti is a licensedclinical psychologist with
nearly 15 years of experience asa therapist and college
professor.
In addition to her privatetherapy practice, she is a
writer, speaker, and coach onissues of relationships,
sexuality, trauma, and faith.
Her first book Recovering fromPurity Culture, released in
(02:14):
2024.
Dr.
Camden lives in Knoxville,Tennessee with her husband and
their daughter and son.
Learn more about Camden on herwebsite, www.drcamden.com.
Dr.
Camden's book is calledRecovering From Purity Culture,
and she also has a freebie guideon her website called How Purity
Culture Affects Your EnneagramType.
(02:35):
So.
So make sure to check that out.
I have the link for that in theshow notes as well.
So whether this whole purityculture concept impacts you or
doesn't, this will be a reallyinteresting episode to discuss,
whether you're a six or youknow, a six or whether you are
just curious about what it'slike to change your perspective
on something like purityculture.
(02:56):
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Dr.
Camden Ganti.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:02):
Well, Dr.
Camden Ganzi, welcome to thepodcast.
Camden (03:05):
Thank you, Steph.
I'm glad to be here.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:07):
Yeah.
Um, I'm excited to chat with youtoday about Purity Culture and
your book.
before we dive into any of that,I'd love to talk about the
Enneagram a little bit and justtell me about your journey with
the Enneagram and how you foundyour type.
Camden (03:20):
Okay.
Yeah, I started studying it afew years ago.
It was probably like 2019 or so,um, just by hearing about it on
podcasts, so just listening topodcasts and I was really
intrigued by it.
Of course, I'm a psychologist,so I'd been trained and like
different kind of personalityassessments, but what I really
liked about the Enneagram wasthat it got to your motivations.
(03:41):
Rather than just externalbehavior.
So I felt like it got deeper andit also really focused on
strengths and um, and growth andhealth.
And I liked that rather thanjust focusing on like what was
wrong about your personality.
So yeah, so I listened to a lotof podcasts and started to
identify with a couple ofdifferent types.
And then I read some books, um,you know, read the Road back to
(04:04):
You kind of.
Was a, a good intro into it andthen several other books since
then to try to get deeper.
Um.
Yeah, and I landed on, um, sixWing five, so that, that's my
type.
And, um, very much, it's verymuch helped me as a person and
in my marriage.
It's helped us a lot tounderstand each other better.
(04:24):
And then it's helped me in mypractice to understand my
clients better.
It's become a standard question.
I ask all my clients, do youknow your Enneagram type?
If so, what is it?
And it helps us to really.
Make the most of their strengthsand also understand their
desires and their, the lens thatthey kind of look through, um,
at times.
And also really helps to know ifthey lean towards like gut, head
(04:46):
or heart.
You know, shame, fear, anger,like I find those, um, tools
really helpful.
So yeah, it's just been reallygood for me personally and
professionally.
Stephanie Barron Hall (04:55):
Yeah.
Um, I'm curious about the typingspecifically as a six because I
know many sixes and I work witha lot of sixes, and there is
this desire for certainty.
Um, and so sometimes it's likethey wanna feel certain about
their type, and I'm like, well,unfortunately I cannot give you
(05:17):
certainty because.
You know, it can just be reallychallenging.
So what was that process likefor you?
Like how long did it take you?
What other types did yougravitate toward?
Camden (05:28):
Um, yeah, I think there was, there's always a few that
you have a couple ofcharacteristics of or can relate
to, and then there's a few Icould immediately, you know,
cross off the list.
Um, I think I identified quite abit with a one, um, two and, um,
following rules and being,having an inner critic and being
kind of hard on myself.
So I identify with that and, butas I looked into.
(05:51):
Um, like, am I one or am I asix?
I learned that six wing fivescan often look like once, maybe
there's, there's more of that,um, following of the rules or
wanting, um, knowledge to helpguide us.
Um, and really being able todistinguish between the inner
critic and the inner committeehelped me land on six, Yeah,
(06:12):
it's not so much, I've movedaway a lot from the
perfectionist and the CRIcritical of myself, but it is
still some, a lot of self doubtthat I struggle with or looking
outside myself to externalbelief systems or leaders,
experts, authority structures tokind of guide me and tell me
where to go.
And the Enneagrams been a greattool to help me grow in that my
(06:33):
own, um.
Um, techniques and skills that Iuse in therapy have helped me as
I use them on myself, just tolook within and listen to myself
and be able to get in touch withmy intuition and trust,
self-trust.
So yeah, so that's really whathelped me kind of narrow it
down.
Stephanie Barron Hall (06:50):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, yeah, it's funny I lean moreinto subtypes versus the wings.
Um, and so I think the way thatyou're describing that
expression of six sounds a lotlike social six to me.
I don't know if that subtyperesonates for you.
Um, but I.
Married to a social six.
And it's so interesting, likeseeing the way that, like the
(07:14):
ideological authority concept,um, plays out in that, that
subtype and how it really doeslook like type one.
I mean, he came on the podcastbefore as a one
Camden (07:25):
Oh, wow.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:25):
and, and so it does look very one-ish,
because I think for socialsixes, the fear can be buried.
Camden (07:32):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I'm also.
Probably a little bit more of acounterphobic sex than, than a
phobic one.
Like, you know, I do kind ofoften go after the things that
I'm scared of, like writing andpublishing a book, um, and
putting myself out there.
And so that can be, can kind oftrip you up with typing too.
But you're right, I, I am asocial, um, a social sex.
(07:53):
And so having community andhaving relationships and being a
part of a group or groupbelonging is really important to
me.
Um.
And so that kind of relates tothe topic we'll be talking about
today and how all of that is,was kind of, you know,
threatened or in flux becauseof, yeah, because of changes in
my beliefs and faith.
(08:13):
Um.
But yeah, just being able tohonor your your subtype I think
is helpful too.
Like I realized last year I'dbeen working out at home doing
yoga at home for a long time andI joined a yoga studio'cause I
realized like I'm a social six.
Like I need that social.
Um, it provides so muchaccountability and just is more
encouraging and motivating tome, and I can get outta my head
(08:35):
more easily when I'm in thegroup fitness environment, like
with yoga rather than at home.
So.
I still do it at home sometimes,but just being able to like
honor that, that was like a needfor me.
Stephanie Barron Hall (08:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
because.
I am a social repressed subtype.
So, I really like the in-personas well.
you know, but it's sometimesit's like, oh, I don't wanna be
around people.
Like there is like that part ofit too, where it's like, oh, I
(09:06):
don't wanna be like a part of agroup.
Camden (09:09):
Okay.
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (09:11):
and I think, I think it's just funny
how those different instinctsplay out.
Um, so what about your journeywith becoming a psychologist and
then deciding to then reallyspecialize in purity, culture
recovery and religious trauma?
Like what inspired you?
I mean, when I hear thosethings, I'm like, oh, there's a
story there.
Camden (09:31):
Yeah, there usually is.
Um, in school we said, researchis me search.
You know, that the, it wasusually, um, motivated by
something in our own personallife and I went into psychology
wanting to study relationships,feeling like my family
upbringing impacted me sosignificantly.
I wanted to study marriage andfamily and, um.
(09:52):
Yeah, all of those relationshipdynamics.
Um, and then in school Ispecialized in couples therapy
in grad school and sexuality.
I took extra classes in that.
And um, yeah.
And then I never really set outto be a sex therapist or talk
about sex so much like I do now.
But I started realizing like,how.
Some of these, what I would nowcall toxic beliefs and myths of
(10:14):
purity culture affected me howsome of the rigidity in black
and white thinking in my faithtradition had negatively
impacted me and also impactingmy clients.
I was seeing the effects in myclients and yeah, I wanted a way
to kind of reconcile that withwhat a healthy faith expression
could look like, um, for peopleand to kind of.
(10:36):
Present that both andperspective.
And so I started writing andspeaking on social media mostly.
Um, and that like evolved over avery long period it took to get
to writing the book andpublishing in October, was to
present that both andperspective of both.
Here's how we heal from and moveaway from, and challenge and
dismantle these toxic beliefswhile also holding onto the
(10:58):
parts of our faith that reallydo feel nourishing and
life-giving and true and good.
so that was.
Yeah, that was my, my missionand focus.
Stephanie Barron Hall (11:06):
Yeah.
And that's so helpful because Iknow as somebody who was also
raised in purity culture, um, itcan be really hard to reconcile,
well, how do I wanna have adifferent perspective now?
And for some people, like theydo.
Feel like their faith is areally important part of who
they are and they wanna keepthat, and integrate that.
And so how can you really dothat, when you don't have
(11:29):
resources to help guide you?
So that's so useful.
But I'm curious because some ofour listeners might not even be
familiar with the concept ofpurity culture.
It feels really natural.
Right?
To me, when I hear that, I'mlike, I know exactly what you
mean.
Like, You know, I'm thinkinglike Josh Harris and all these
things like I kiss dating,goodbye.
but tell us, how do you definepurity culture and what is the
(11:52):
impact that it has?
Camden (11:54):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I define it as a largelyevangelical sociopolitical
movement that peaked in the1990s to two thousands that
attempted to persuade youngpeople to be abstinence,
sexually abstinent untilmarriage, using shame and fear
as the tools of control.
So.
A belief in sexual abstinencebefore marriage is something
that's present in othercultures, time periods or faith
(12:16):
traditions.
But the purity culture that I'mspeaking and you know, writing
about was specifically this, um,this very rigid evangelical
expression of it and the culturethat grew up around it.
And particularly whenmillennials like me, were, were
teenagers with Joshua Harris.
I kissed dating goodbye andthere were rings that we wore.
Um, some people made pledges towait until marriage.
(12:38):
Some people attended rallies orhad purity balls with their
fathers.
Like all of those were thecultural parts that people
outside of evangelicalism mightnot be familiar with.
What they will be familiar withthough is probably abstinence
only sex education because, Inthe early two thousands that
received, um, government fundingeven in the public schools.
(12:59):
And so those of us who were ineven public school at the time,
were hearing some version ofpurity culture.
Maybe not a specificallyreligious one, but a don't have
sex.
just say no kind of, um,, very,big focus on just abstaining
without the holistic sexeducation in order to make
better informed decisions.
So, yeah, so I think, Purityculture is gonna be like, we
(13:21):
probably speak the same languagebecause we grew up in it, but
it's also gonna be familiar topeople if even if you didn't
grow up in this faith tradition.
Stephanie Barron Hall (13:29):
Yeah, and I didn't realize that, it got
government funding.
I mean, I grew up in Texas, soin Texas we had abstinence only
sex education.
But I'm curious, was thatpervasive throughout the
country?
Camden (13:41):
That's the research I saw that under the George W.
Bush administration, it receivedlike national funding, um, and
then was found to be largelyineffective.
So they kind of dropped off andmoved away from that.
the research found that like itwas largely ineffective in
meeting its goals.
The biggest effect it had wasthat it tended to delay sex for
18 months, like, um.
(14:03):
If you went through abstinenceonly education, you were more
likely to wait a little longerto have sex for the first time.
But it did not prevent teenpregnancy or STIs or,
necessarily cause everyone towait until marriage.
So, yeah, it um, that's why Isay, you know, largely did not
meet its goals.
I,
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:19):
Yeah, I mean, somebody was selling a lot
of those weird Velcro gloves outthere that they, you know, used
to demonstrate like, oh, nowyou're ruined because, you know,
you got velcroed together,whatever.
So what are some of the mythsthen, of purity culture?
Like obviously one of them itsounds like is that, oh, it
prevents teen pregnancy, andyou're saying actually the
(14:40):
research doesn't bear that out.
What are some other things thatwere myths and formed us as
individuals?
I.
Camden (14:46):
Yeah.
In my book I, I specificallyname and describe five of the
most pervasive myths in, um.
In like religious purity culturespecifically.
And one is the damaged goodmyth, which you're alluding to
when you say the velvet gloves.
Um, you know, just the objectlessons that were often used
were like you spit in a cup ofwater and then pass it around
(15:08):
and everybody spits in it, andthat's representing like the
effects of multiple sexpartners.
And you're gonna be this dirtycup of water that no one wants,
or you're a chewed up piece ofgum or a ripped up piece of
paper.
Like those were some of thedemonstrations that were used.
In schools or churches orrallies, and that sends the
message that you're damagedgoods and that you should be
ashamed that, um, you're brokenand, and dirty and used and no
(15:30):
one's gonna want you.
Um, and that is, is somethingthat like deeply affects a lot
of people.
Um, whether they had consensualpremarital sex, whether they
were sexually abused even, andfeeling like they're damaged and
broken.
Um, yeah.
So it affects a lot of peopleand leads to a lot of shame.
Stephanie Barron Hall (15:48):
I'm curious how you work with people
who are like, they know, okay, Iam carrying all this shame.
Or maybe they don't know.
'cause I think sometimes wedon't know how much shame we're
carrying and then.
They come into your office andthey're like, I wanna keep my
faith, but I, this part of itfeels integral to the faith that
(16:13):
I was taught, and yet it is sopainful.
Camden (16:16):
Hmm.
Yeah, we first, we work onidentifying the difference
between shame and guilt and.
When guilt comes from a healthysense of we acted out of
alignment with our own valuesversus shame is when I fear
social rejection or disapprovalbecause I violated my social
(16:36):
group's values, not my ownvalues.
so we really work to distinguishthat and, and help them find
like healthier and moreaccepting social groups and
communities like.
Brene Brown says like, empathyand connection is the antidote
to shame.
So being able to reach out andfind, empathy and, and forms of
connection with people infaith-based settings or in
(16:59):
non-faith based settings whereyou feel accepted and you feel
like you're not gonna be judgedor rejected.
That's one of the ways to, towork towards healing the shame.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
and I'm, I'm curious more aboutthe Enneagram because I know
that you've talked about thisbefore, where, the overlap
between purity culture and theEnneagram, and there are certain
types that are normally peggedas like, those are the ones that
have shame, but.
I, in my own experience, likeworking with a lot of different
types of people, I've seen shameas being a a lot more present
(17:31):
in, in many types.
So I'm, I'm curious if you cangive us just like a brief
rundown of how purity cultureaffects each type.
Camden (17:38):
Sure.
Yeah.
And certainly none of us areimmune to shame, unfortunately.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:42):
Yeah.
Camden (17:43):
Um, but yeah, looking at like type one, I think a person,
I have a lot of type one clientsand I, I love working with them
'cause they're, they're veryconscientious and um, and they
very much wanna self-improve.
But I think the way that purityculture or more broadly like.
Fundamentalist religious, um,teachings can affect them, is
(18:04):
that they have thisperfectionism to the rules,
this, this kind of good girlpersona that they, they wanna
keep.
Um, and that can lead to rigidexpectations on themselves and
judgment of others.
Um, one of the myths that I namein my book is called the
Spiritual Barometer Myth, wherewe measure our spirituality by
our purity or virginity.
(18:26):
and this can lead to a lot of.
Like ugly pride and judgment ofothers if you do uphold, um,
those beliefs.
And so I think for a type one orany type who, who does uphold
those beliefs, they can oftenfall into judging others.
I.
with type two, I think it'svery, um, common that they could
be unaware of their own sexualdesires, their own body and
(18:48):
pleasure.
And because they're so focusedon others and giving to others,
and that's something that's I.
Honestly praised and encouragedin purity culture, especially
for women.
Purity culture is very embeddedin patriarchy and so, um, the
beliefs are very patriarchal.
It's very much about womenserving men's sexual needs.
Um, I call it the gatekeepersmyth, like women are the
(19:09):
gatekeepers of men's sexualityand so a type two woman
especially is gonna besusceptible to over focusing on
her.
Male partner's needs, um,instead of like, what feels good
to her or her own body andexperience.
And then for type three, becausethere can be often more focused
(19:29):
on like image, um, and maybemeeting others' expectations to
look good or to gain approval,um, they might also be attracted
to the formulas of purityculture.
Like, you know, because whenyou're an achiever.
you know, if I do x, Y happens,you know, and, and that formula,
or if I can work hard to achievethis goal or outcome that I
(19:51):
want.
purity culture is very full offormulas and false promises of
if you wait, then you're gonnaget, um, a fairytale marriage
and.
Spouse, or if you wait, thenyour, then your sex life and
marriage is gonna be amazing.
And that's not always the case.
Um, which can lead to a lot ofdisappointment and
disillusionment for, for all ofus.
But, but that's what came tomind when I thought of a type
(20:12):
three, is that, just beingattracted to the, that formula
and then being disappointed whenit doesn't happen.
For a type four, they can oftenfeel like too, too much and not
enough at the same time.
Um, or blame themselves or feellike there's something deficient
in them feeling flawed andfeeling shame.
I think that's the type that'sprobably most susceptible to the
(20:34):
shame of purity culture.
Um, particularly if they did notadhere to purity culture's
expectations, um, to feel likethey're more susceptible to the
damaged Good myth.
Did you wanna comment on any ofthese since you were the
Enneagram expert, or you want meto just keep going?
Stephanie Barron Hall (20:49):
No, I mean these, these sound great.
I was thinking, for the ones andtwos in particular, I was kind
of thinking about one for typetwo about the modesty piece.
Um, and how that play could playin for a two.
I I'm sure that there'ssomething there.
and then for a type one, evenlike the self-judgment, once
they're like supposed to flipthe switch when they get
Camden (21:10):
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:11):
and how challenging that could be.
Camden (21:13):
Yeah, I think when you're real attached to this
identity of being a good girl,or that means pure, and pure
means abstinent, then when youget married, I especially see
this in some of my youngerclients who their virginity was
a very big part of theiridentity.
Um, and they like had a purityring and gave it to their
husband on their wedding day,you know, and then they get
(21:34):
married and they're like, am Istill pure?
You know, there's, there's thatloss of identity from Uh, from,
yeah, from things changing and,and having difficulty flipping
the switch sometime.
And that's a good point aboutthe twos and modesty.
Um, yeah, a lot of modestymessages of you have to cover up
to prevent men from beingtempted or lusting or stumbling
(21:55):
is the term often used.
Um, so I can see how that wouldaffect the tube in particular.
Stephanie Barron Hall (22:01):
Yeah.
Camden (22:02):
So moving, um, forward then with the five, what I
thought of here is just likethey're very logical and maybe
like the black and white rulesthat purity culture offers.
But then I also thought,because.
The fives have like that lowenergy and that need to recharge
at times that the pressure toalways be sexually available or
(22:23):
on for your spouse, especially,you know, for women, um, may be
really overwhelming to a five.
For the sixes like me, um,purity culture is very
attractive because we wannafollow the rules and authority.
We look outside ourselves for abelief system that we can trust
or for an authority that givesus certainty and security.
And it definitely did.
(22:43):
Like for me, this.
This belief system gave me a lotof security and a lot of sense
of I'm doing the right thing andI'm gonna get the reward for it.
Um, and I call that thefairytale myth because when it
didn't happen for me in thetiming that I expected, or that
I felt like I was promised, Iwas really disappointed and felt
really, dejected.
You know, just like what's thepoint in all of this?
(23:05):
Yeah, so a lot of self-doubt.
Then as a six for the sevens,they may rebel against the rules
and not like those constraintsof purity culture.
They may want the freedom.
but then conversely, once youget married, if you have trouble
flipping a switch when you getmarried, to.
This mind blowing sex that youwere promised.
If that doesn't happen, therecan be a lot of disappointment
(23:28):
in that for anyone, certainly.
But I think for, when I think ofthe sevens and just that desire
for pleasure and to avoid pain,that can be really painful and
and unexpected.
I
Stephanie Barron Hall (23:39):
and it, it just blows my mind too, that
like in everything in life, Ithink knowledge and practice
really help.
Camden (23:46):
exactly.
Stephanie Barron Hall (23:47):
So like, how are you?
I'm sorry.
Like how are you gonna like havethis mind blowing experience
when you have no knowledge andno practice?
It does not make sense, but thisculture tells us this is the
way.
Camden (24:00):
right.
Yeah.
Like I, I say sex is a learnedskill.
Like anything in a relationshiplike communication, you have to
work at it.
It's gonna take practice, it'sgonna take skills, education
time, like it's not somethingthat just happens automatically,
but there's a lot of those emptypromises in.
High control religion or infundamentalist belief systems,
there's a lot of those.
If you do X God will do Y foryou.
(24:22):
Um,
Stephanie Barron Hall (24:23):
The cosmic vending machine.
Camden (24:25):
yes, exactly.
Yeah.
yeah.
So they just, they applied thatto, when it came to sex for a
type eight, they may rebelagainst the control, the
controlling nature of purityculture.
Um.
But then I also thought, youknow, once they get married,
they could become controlling ordomineering in their marriage or
in their sex life if they're nota healthy eight.
(24:47):
You know, and if they,especially for men who give into
these stereotypes in, um,impurity culture, that they're
the sexual aggressors and their,their wife is supposed to be
there to meet their needs.
Um.
Yeah, so that could easily turninto entitlement.
and then for the nine, I thinkan overfocus on your spouse and
serving them, rather thanyourself and being in touch with
(25:08):
your own, um, body and your owndesires and just kind of losing
yourself and the other person,can often happen.
And that can then happen in thebedroom too.
Stephanie Barron Hall (25:18):
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
And one of the like, reallynegative impacts that I have
personally seen, obviously thisis not research, this is not
data, this is just my anecdote,but, I went to a very
conservative, Christian schoolfor undergrad and you know,
everyone was just gettingmarried, left and right because
(25:39):
like when you're under these.
Like when you are a human beingand you have, you know, whatever
desires, and then you know,these are the rules that you
have to wait till marriage.
People were getting married likein a year or less.
And then about like, let's see,so maybe six, seven years ago it
(25:59):
was like left and right.
All of the people from collegewere getting divorced and I
think.
That there's just so much tothat where it's like, again,
rushing because we have thisdesire and like we think that
everything will be fine'causethat's what we've been told.
That's what we've been taught.
And for it to not pan out, canbe devastating.
(26:21):
Um.
Camden (26:21):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm so curious what college youwent to.
'cause I went to a Christianundergrad too that I call a ring
by spring school.
It
Stephanie Barron Hall (26:29):
Yep.
Bring by Springer Your moneyback, though they would never
give your money back.
Camden (26:34):
Yeah.
But it was very much.
Overemphasized marriage andYeah, almost more of an emphasis
than the degree than that youwere getting.
And um, and that was part ofhow, how I was affected was when
that didn't happen for me.
I got my heart broken instead ofgetting engaged.
and that MRS degree didn'thappen.
It was just like, well, why haveI followed all the rules?
(26:55):
Why have I done all of this, um,if I'm not gonna get this
promised reward?
but I agree with you, Steph.
I saw people getting marriedand.
Very young ages, very short timeperiods of knowing each other
and dating.
and then, yeah, you wait about adecade after everybody graduates
and, and a lot of people havegotten divorced or, you know,
they're on onto their secondmarriage.
And I wonder.
(27:16):
Yeah, I wonder about thatsometimes.
Um, for my book, I interviewed afew women who were divorced,
and, or remarried because Iwanted that perspective.
Um, wanted to understand thatall of them had gotten married
at like 20 and divorced within afew years, and they all had said
some version of, yeah, we werejust told as long as you marry a
Christian who's waiting, likeyou're just.
(27:37):
Everything's gonna be great.
Your marriage is gonna bewonderful.
And then they ended up in someof them abusive marriages or
unhealthy ones, or ones wheretheir, um, spouse was
unfaithful.
Um, yeah, so suffered a lot ofconsequences from not having all
of the tools in order to make a,a healthy decision on a, on a
spouse.
Stephanie Barron Hall (27:57):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really fortunate to be
married to a six.
So I, uh, we started dating in2010 and we got married in 2014
and people around us were like,what are you guys doing?
Four years?
You know, we've been outtacollege a couple years and we're
like, I mean, I.
I mean, I think I too, you know,as a three, I'm like, let's you
know, next thing, come on.
Let, let's move on, move along.
(28:17):
But, uh, being married to a six,he's like, no, I really wanna
think this through.
I wanna be certain, like, Ireally wanna process this.
Um, and not ever gonna jump thegun.
And I think that's really goodthat for us, you know, that we,
everyone has their differentstory and everyone's story is
like.
Has its own, you know, benefitsand, and downfalls, whatever.
(28:40):
But, it, it was reallyinteresting just to see the
perspective of other people andlike how their opinions of us
for, you know, quote unquotewaiting so long.
And in reality it was just likea normal timeframe, right?
Yeah.
Camden (28:55):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting.
And I, I got married when I wasalmost 30, which is for some
people and in some regions ofthe country, very normal in my
culture and in the south where Ilive very late, you know, that
was very old to be gettingmarried.
Um, and I certainly felt theweight of that'cause I'd been
single for many years whileeveryone around me had gotten
(29:17):
married.
You know, all my friends, um.
Yeah, so I think, yeah.
It's just your culture.
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:23):
yeah, and I think again, like because of
purity culture that'scommunicated to you, oh, you
must be damaged goods.
Camden (29:29):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:30):
Because again, so much of your worth is,
is wrapped up in whether or notsomebody wants to marry
Camden (29:35):
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:36):
'cause you've been told that if you're
a godly, if you are pure,somebody will wanna marry you.
Of course.
And it's, that's not reality.
Camden (29:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That, so I, I definitely feltlike something was wrong with me
that I was single for so long.
But like you were saying aboutyou guys dated for four years
and you're really glad that youtook that time.
Like, I, we didn't date thatlong, but I was, I'm glad I was
a little bit older.
Like I felt like that was a hugeadvantage.
I was already a psychologistwhen we met and had all this
(30:08):
training and so.
I didn't find myself, um,suffering from some of the
effects of purity culturebecause I think I had, I had
gotten sex education from mytraining program and was a
little bit older.
It allowed me to develop moreemotional health and maturity
than I would've had if, had Igotten married in college like I
expected to.
I.
Stephanie Barron Hall (30:28):
Okay, this, this makes me like have to
ask, you know, devil's advocate,are there any benefits?
'cause people might be listeningto this and being like, well,
you just had a bad experienceand you're just railing against
this thing.
That actually is really good.
Are there any benefits like tothis type of purity culture
(30:48):
context?
Camden (30:49):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So I'll tell you what theresearch found.
Yeah.
In qualitative research, whichis when you're interviewing
people and getting theirresponses, um, some women noted
that following purity culturehelped them have more trust in
their marriage, feel safer intheir marriage, and closer to
their spouse.
And so they felt some benefitsin that.
(31:09):
Every time I speak about this,um.
Like I've spoken and giventrainings to therapists about
this topic.
There's always someone in therewho's from, not from the South
where we are, who said like, youknow this, this.
This kind of dating practice wasactually really good for me
because where I grew up, um, youknow, hookup culture or, um,
that was the norm.
(31:30):
And so this helped me make morethoughtful decisions and slow
things down and not put pressureon every relationship had to
include sex, and so they alwaysnote.
I always have someone who willnote some of those positive
benefits.
So if someone tells me they hada positive experience with
purity culture, I say, you know,I'm happy for you and I'm glad,
and certainly there can bebenefits to the decision to, to
(31:54):
wait to have sex until marriage.
Like that's a personal decisionthat I respect and honor.
But purity culture as a whole,the fear and control, the shame
that it induces, that is what Ifeel like I'm, I'm.
Okay.
Criticizing, rather than likethe personal values or personal
decision or even personalbenefit that someone felt, yeah.
(32:14):
So that's what we wanna payattention to.
Stephanie Barron Hall (32:16):
Yeah, because I think when I'm
thinking and I'm hearing, youknow, people making those types
of comments, to me it'sdifferent to have your own
personal sexual ethic and yourown values, like you're saying,
versus having this whole entireframework that is built on that
shame and control piece.
So like you're separating thosetwo concepts.
It's not necessarily purityculture, quote unquote, to wait
(32:39):
till marriage.
You can make whatever choice youfeel good about, but.
It's the problem is these otherextraneous pieces that are
really about the control.
Camden (32:51):
Right.
That's exactly what I say in mybook.
Is that a personal convictiondecision, discernment or values
of, of waiting or, um, yeah, ofwaiting until marriage for sex.
is not purity culture.
It's the.
It's when that is not a choiceor decision.
When it's coerced out of fearand control, that's when it
becomes purity culture.
(33:13):
Um, and so in my book, I try toguide people in a process of
reconstructing their sexualethic based on their values.
One that's congruent with theirvalues and doesn't have to
follow either hookup culture,since that's often what's
offered to us as an alternativeor this sexual ethic based on
shame, which is purity culture.
Stephanie Barron Hall (33:31):
Yeah.
What are some of those initialsteps that you recommend to
people who are beginning theirjourney of healing from this?
Camden (33:38):
Yeah, I think initial steps are always to recognize,
like, and be aware to increaseyour awareness of, um, what
purity culture is and of theways it may have affected you.
And then another initial stepwould be to connect with sources
of support, whether that's atherapist that's trained in this
area, or a coach or it's groups.
Online or in person who canprovide that empathy and support
(34:02):
to you and make you feel likeless alone?
Like, you know, a lot of myclients, like I said to you
earlier, like we speak, you andI might speak the same language
and me and my clients do, butthey might not know someone in
their actual life that speaksthe same language of, of purity
culture.
And so they feel a lot lessalone when I tell them.
Yeah, like this is not uncommon.
Um, I've had other clients saythis too, or, yeah, you're not
(34:24):
alone.
This, this is common in theresearch.
Like, um, that can feel veryvalidating.
Stephanie Barron Hall (34:29):
Yeah.
it's funny because I, uh.
I'm really into like all thesedifferent YouTubers who talk
about these topics andoccasionally there will be one
who did not grow up in this andlike literally can't wrap their
mind around.
They're like, I understand thatthese people believe this, but I
don't understand why and Icannot articulate why, but I
(34:51):
just know that it was the waterI was swimming in growing up.
and so I think it's, it is souseful to have other people
around who.
You know, can talk about it onthe same level.
And like, you can makereferences like to certain
things like we did earlier.
Like, you know, I kiss datinggoodbye or, or whatever, the
purity balls or whatever.
And for people to have that,that contextual understanding of
(35:14):
what that means,
Camden (35:15):
Right.
So are these YouTubers sayinglike, they don't understand why
someone would follow this orbelieve this, or,
Stephanie Barron Hall (35:20):
it's more so like, they're like, wow,
that's wild.
Can't believe people, peoplethink this, And not in a
judgmental way, but in a way oflike, they're the outside
looking in and they're like,that's just really wild.
I, I never would've thought thator been taught that.
Camden (35:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so they can't imagine theways that it affects us then.
Um, you know, it's the samething when I watch a documentary
on the Duggar family, you know,which is a, a.
Just a community I did not growup in.
You know, that might seem reallyforeign to me, but once I watch
it, I can, it makes sense of whythese people might have turned
out the way they did.
(35:58):
Um, or like, I don't fearwearing something that's
sleeveless like that, that'sokay for me.
And that's never something I've,I've worried about.
But for somebody else.
That might feel really foreignto them or really wrong to them.
So much fear, um, that mightbring up for them.
So yeah, it's just puttingourself in other people's shoes
and trying to see how it makessense given their upbringing and
(36:18):
the messages they internalized.
Stephanie Barron Hall (36:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I recently read, uh,Jill Duggar's memoir
Camden (36:24):
Yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (36:25):
and having so many shared messages
from childhood.
I was like, so many of thethings she said, I was like, oh
yeah, I totally get that.
Like, even though, you know, Iwore pants, like I played
sports, just, just a totallydifferent perspective.
Yeah.
Camden (36:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really, I liked herdocumentary, and it helped me
really understand what she wentthrough and where she's still,
how she's still healing.
Um, yeah.
Stephanie Barron Hall (36:50):
Do you differentiate, um, religious
trauma and sexual shame, andalong what lines?
Camden (36:59):
I think purity culture can be a form of religious
trauma and, um, purity cultureand sexual shame go hand in
hand.
I call shame the universalexperience of purity culture
because there's no one who comesoutta purity culture with who
doesn't have shame.
Um, but certainly religioustrauma can be broader.
There's many other practices orbeliefs or structures that can
(37:21):
cause religious trauma, andthat's a newer term for some
people.
But really it just means.
Paying attention and noting,noticing your body's response to
a particular religious practiceor structure or belief system.
Like if your body has atraumatic response, um, meaning
it is your body's kind ofrecoiling, or you go into fight
(37:43):
or flight mode.
Um, I have many clients who havethat kind of a response to sex
in their marriage, like they'remarried in a healthy marriage, a
loving spouse, they may saythey've never been sexually
abused, and yet they're, they'lltell me like, you know, why am
I.
Why is my body reacting likeI've been sexually abused?
Is there some sort of repressedtrauma or something?
And I'll say, you know, it canjust be purity culture.
(38:04):
It could just be that thesemessages have been so
internalized that your body hasa trauma response to the idea of
sex.
And so that can happen, um, youknow, with other types of
religious practices too.
Um, yeah.
So it's, it's a form of trauma.
It's valid and there are, youknow, therapists that are
trained in it and can help youthrough it.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:24):
Yeah.
are there daily practices orreflections that you suggest for
these people who areexperiencing this?
Camden (38:31):
Yeah, I think a daily practice to start with is to pay
attention and tune into yourbody, heart, mind, and soul.
Like often we've been trained toignore our body, kill the flesh
and de deny your body.
Or we've been trained that ourheart is wicked and deceitful
and emotions can't be trusted.
And so being able to tune intothese areas, um, notice how can
(38:53):
I honor my body today and honorits pace or what would calm my
mind today?
What feels calming or how can Ipay attention to and validate my
emotions?
Um, those are all questions and.
For daily practice that youcould ask yourself.
I ask myself some version ofthose questions, you know, every
day as I check in with myselfand say, you know, what care do
(39:14):
I need to, to give myself today?
Um, because we've been taught tofocus outside of ourselves,
whether that's looking foranswers or caring for others,
but being able to also turninward.
And for me, as a six, that'sgood to be able to turn inward
and listen to myself and notjust look outside of myself for
answers.
Stephanie Barron Hall (39:32):
yeah.
Well, and I also think about,um.
You know, the differentintelligence centers and, and
how we of the Enneagram and howwe have these different
responses.
And so body types being 8, 9, 1,heart types, 2, 3, 4, and then
mine types 5, 6, 7.
And as a heart type, I thinklike a year ago I was in therapy
(39:53):
and I realized like I don't everreally remember or recognize
that I like have anything belowlike.
Hip level like that I have legs.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I forget sometimes.
And just even the practice ofsitting and, and breathing and
(40:15):
like remembering like, okay, Ihave a full body here.
Like it can be so helpful.
And I think I've met a lot ofmind types who are the same.
Um, and like are like, I'm justahead on a stick.
Like I'm just.
Camden (40:27):
Yeah, I would say it's very easy for me to live in my
head, not in the world of.
Like fantasy or ideas, but moreso in the world of logic and
facts and plans.
Um, very easy for me to do that.
I'm least in touch with my bodyof the three centers.
My body would be the, the least.
Um.
A familiar one to me.
(40:49):
And so a practice of mindfulnessmeditation has also been really
helpful to me.
That's something I use in mytherapy practice, somatic, which
means like mind and bodytechniques to help us get in
touch with the body and, andtune into what's going on inside
my body.
Like those have all been reallyhelpful for me to start to tap
into that center of intelligencemore.
Stephanie Barron Hall (41:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So helpful.
okay, so tell us a little bitabout your book.
Who is it for and where can wefind it?
Camden (41:15):
the book is called Recovering from Purity Culture,
and it's available whereverbooks are sold.
Of course, Amazon Baker Books ismy publisher.
And who is it for?
Is really anybody who grew up inpurity culture and notices.
the impact and wants to start toheal from the effects.
I am a Christian, so I include alot of, um, Christian kind of
(41:36):
integrative strategies and toolstoo.
So it's gonna be probably mostapplicable to clients who want
a, um, a little bit of afaith-based perspective without
being full of gender stereotypesand rigid.
This is the one way, wedefinitely make space for, for
other, For other perspectives.
So, that's who the book is for.
And yeah, I've been, it's beennice to connect with my readers
(41:58):
and be able to share this morebroadly than with just my
clients.
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
I love that about books whereyou can just.
Tell somebody, this is where youcan find like this whole plan.
but I'm definitely gonna pick itup as well because even though I
don't share the same faith-basedperspective, I think I can
understand the language.
Um, and so, being able to kindof dismantle some of those
(42:22):
things, it's been a long timesince I, have really felt like
the stronghold of this concept,but I'm sure that it's still
there.
You know what I mean?
Camden (42:31):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I've had people who didn'tgrow up, in, in religion say
that they related to some ofthis too, and felt a lot of
healing through it.
And, and I've had people who.
Don't share my faith or, orvalues or religious beliefs, but
say like, the tools were stillreally helpful and could be
applied.
And, um, and that theyappreciated my, um, openness to,
(42:53):
to helping them figure out theirown values.
So, yeah, so that was my, my aimwith the book was not to provide
another, here's an experttelling you what you have to
believe, but to help you figureit out for yourself.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:04):
Yeah, for sure.
which is so helpful, right?
Because you know, a lot of thosehigh control religious things
say you can't figure it out foryourself.
You have to listen to expertsand you're turning that back
onto your reader.
Camden (43:16):
Yes.
That was my hope.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:18):
how can listeners connect with you?
Camden (43:20):
Yeah, you can connect with me on Instagram or Facebook
threads at Dr.
Camden, and then my website isdr camden.com.
That's Dr.
Camden.
Um, and yeah, you can check outmy book and I also offer online
coaching if you wanna look intothat.
And there's a free download onmy website how your Enneagram
type is affected by purityculture.
So if you want that, um, thatgoes into more detail of what
(43:43):
you and I talked about today.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:45):
all that will be linked in the show notes
too.
Um, so before I let you go, twolast questions.
First one is, tell me about abook that has helped you
refreshed you or shaped you inthe last year.
I.
Camden (43:57):
Well, it's hard to pick just one stuff because I'm a big
reader.
But as we're speaking abouttrauma and embodiment, I'm gonna
mention, um, strong like Waterby Andy Colbert.
she is a trauma therapist and Ihave learned so much from her
about trauma in the body and somany gentle healing practices,
ways to regulate your nervoussystem.
Um, so her book Strong LikeWater, has been a, a great
(44:19):
resource to me and one Irecommend a lot.
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:22):
Cool.
I will check that out.
I have not read that one, so
Camden (44:25):
Do you follow her
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:27):
I do.
Mm-hmm.
Camden (44:27):
online?
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:28):
Yeah, I really like her.
and then tell me a piece ofadvice that has really stuck
with you.
Camden (44:33):
Yeah, right now what I'm really focused on in my own
growth and healing and work is.
Re-parenting myself, like beingthis the healthiest parent that
I can be for my two kids.
So I think the advice that goodparenting starts with you, it
doesn't start with some.
Tool or strategy or timeout orany kind of discipline like, um,
(44:57):
or trick, um, mom hack.
It really starts with you andbeing healthy yourself.
And so that's something I'm, I'malways working on in myself.
There's a lot to heal from whenyou grow up in, um, this kind of
religious background.
there's a lot that had to, hasto be rethought as I think about
how I wanna teach my kids andwhat I wanna model to them.
But yeah, that's what came tomind.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:19):
Cool.
I love that.
I think that's awesome.
I mean, not that I knowanything, but I did recently
get, parenting from the Insideout by Dan Segal.
Camden (45:27):
Yes, I'm reading that right now.
Stephanie Barron Hall (45:29):
cool.
Yeah, so I am excited to readthat, in the coming months.
So thank you so much for joiningme.
This has been really great, andI really hope everyone will
connect with you because, Ithink this topic is so
important.
Camden (45:40):
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
I
Steph Barron Hall (45:42):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway
(46:03):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(46:23):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
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Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
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