Relationships, Instincts, and Sex with Dr. Sam E. Greenberg (5) and Lyndsey Fraser, MA, LMFT, CST (9)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hello and welcome to any gram inreal life.
The podcast where we explore howto apply our Enneagram knowledge
in our daily lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie Barronhall and on today's episode.
I have a much awaited topic, butbefore I get into that, I wanted
to share that today's episode isnot for little ears.
So if you.

(00:27):
Have kiddos around, or if you'relistening out loud at work.
Um, this one is not safe forwork.
so I'll give you a second hereto put some headphones in or
turn it off before we get intotoday's topic.
Today.
I am talking to the Enneagramsex spurts, Lindsay Frasier and
Dr.
Sam E Greenberg.
Lindsay is a licensed marriageand family therapist, certified

(00:50):
sex therapist and aninternational Enneagram
association or IEA accredited,any grant professional she has
presented on the intersection ofthe Instagram relationships and
sexuality and various us andinternational forums.
She is one of the few sextherapists in the world, working
explicitly with the Instagram.
And Lindsey regularly makesguests.

(01:11):
Appearances on podcasts andoffers private and public
presentations as aninternationally recognized
Enneagram expert.
Lindsey has also had a privatepractice for the last 12 years
in south Minneapolis, where shespecializes in relationships and
sexuality.
Using the Enneagram.
Dr.
Sami Greenberg is a writer,researcher, and Enneagram coach

(01:31):
whose work focuses on sexualityand relationships.
Sam's research explores theintersection of any grub type
and instinct with patterns ofsexual desire and expression.
Her research informs herapproach to supporting clients
and building fulfillingrelationships and actualizing
sexual potential.
Sam has presented her researchfindings in the us and abroad

(01:52):
and offers workshops on multipleaspects of any REM in sexuality.
On today's episode, we talk allabout the instincts and
sexuality.
So we thought we might have timeto get to each of the nine
types, but actually we, we justhad time to cover the instincts
And salmon Lindsay told me allabout how the different dominant
instincts.
So those are self-preservationsocial and sexual.

(02:13):
How each of them approach sex.
Um, some of the challenges thatthey might face and then some
practical tips on how toapproach things differently or
how to work with the partner whois a different dominant instinct
than you are.
So, if you want to learn moreabout that topic, they actually
have a workshop I've attendedone of these in the past, and I
really, really enjoyed it.
It was just a great welcomingspace to discuss this topic.

(02:36):
Um, they have an upcomingvirtual Enneagram type and
sexuality workshop on March 13thand tickets are available for
presale now through February7th.
So make sure you click the linkin the show notes.
If you're interested in that atall, they also have an upcoming
full day in person workshopcalled Enneagram and sexuality
for transformed relationships.
And that will take place on July28th in Minnesota, the day after

(02:59):
the IEA internationalconference.
So if you're not familiar withthe international Enneagram
association, um, or IEA, theirconference is in.
Minnesota this year and thisconference is just a great way
to learn from many of yourfavorite Enneagram teachers, or
just to mingle and, and kind ofget to know people.
Um, who also love the Enneagramand you will also get to hear

(03:22):
papers presented in differentworkshops on topics.
That might be newer theoriesthat people are kind of floating
and wanting to discuss in moredetail during the conference.
So if you are interested in thatat all and have the means to get
to Minnesota in July.
pre-sale for this workshop isavailable now through March
31st.
And so again, that link is inthe show notes.
And finally one more thing tomention, um, that you can start

(03:46):
listening to now.
Is Sam and Lindsay offer a sexyfirst Fridays on Instagram live.
Where they talk about theEnneagram and sexuality every
first Friday of the month.
So be sure to check that out.
You can find them on Instagramat Lindsay Frasier.
So L Y N D S E Y F R a S E R.

(04:09):
LMF T.
Or.
Sam is at ennea.
Underscore gazumped.
So, again, both of those linksare in the show notes, but make
sure you check that out becausethey answer questions and just
talk about different conceptsrelated to this topic.
I really enjoyed thisconversation with Lindsay and
Sam.
And definitely.

(04:31):
Continue to follow them.
If this is a topic that you'reinterested in, because I know
it's something that can be soenlightening and helpful for us
in our relationships.
So without further ado here ismy conversation with the
Enneagram experts.

Steph Barron Hall (04:44):
Well, Sam and Lindsay, welcome to the podcast,

Dr. Sam (04:48):
Thanks for having us!

Lyndsey (04:50):
Yes, thank you.

I'm so excited to talk with you because
I get a lot of questions aboutthis topic today, um, especially
around sex.
And I know we're going to talkabout the instincts a bit.
Um, people just want to know,we're just really curious, we
want to know everything aboutsex.
So I would love to hear, um,from both of you a little bit

(05:13):
about your background, um, andyour introduction to not only,
you know, yourself, but also tothe Enneagram in general.

Lyndsey (05:21):
Yes, I can go first.
My name is Lindsay Frazier.
Um, I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist as well as a
certified sex therapist as wellas an IA credit professional.
Um, and I was actuallyintroduced to the Enneagram by,
um, two other therapists thatlive here in, well, they live in
South Minneapolis, but they'rein Minnesota.
Um, and the interesting thing iswhen they first brought it up,

(05:43):
we used to get lunches together.
And they kept talking aboutthese numbers and like, I didn't
ask them probably for like threeor four lunches because I didn't
know what they were talkingabout.
And then finally I was like,what are you guys talking about?
Um, and they said, Oh, it'sthis, we had just got this
training and using the Enneagramwith clients.
And this was about eight yearsago.
Um, and they thought, and theysaid, and we think you're a

(06:04):
nine.
So, um, which was, which wasinteresting.
I'm like, well, what is thenine?
And they said, well, the nine isthe peacekeeper.
And here's some of the thingsthat we see in you.
And then I had taken a test andthey kind of helped me explore
and figure out what my type was.
Um, but I was a therapist firstbefore I even was introduced to
the Enneagram.
or, um, using it, um, actuallywas already a certified sex

(06:27):
therapist at the time as well.
And so I had been, um, atherapist before I even
introduced the Andogram into mypractice, which I've had my
practice about 12 years now.
Maybe I'm going to my 13th.
It's so hard to kind of keeptrack of.
And I've probably been using theAndogram in my practice, um, the
last eight years or so.

Cool.
Um, so funny that they justimmediately told you you're a
nine.

Lyndsey (06:54):
If they

What was your reaction to that?
Yeah,

Lyndsey (06:58):
know, initially I didn't really want to be a nine
because like when you look atthe nine, like I looked at him
like, oh my God, it's thepushover type.
Um, you know, what does that sayabout who I am?
How do they see me?
And not knowing at the timeabout the social piece of it
too.
So there was also this like,okay, here's, here's It's part
of my social group sort oftelling me, you know, what I am
and what I look like and thingslike that.

(07:19):
And so initially it was hard andone, and one of them is a nine
and one of them is an eight.
And of course it was the eightwho told me what she thought I
was

Dr. Sam (07:27):
Sure.

it can be really challenging.
I'm glad that it worked out okayfor you.
I think sometimes that can behard and people can feel a
little bit misunderstood.

Lyndsey (07:40):
definitely,

Sam, what about you?
Um, tell us about yourself andyour background.

Dr. Sam (07:46):
Um, I'm Sam E.
Greenberg.
I am a sexuality researcherprimarily, and then I'm also a
therapeutic coach focused onsexuality and the Enneagram and
relationships.
My background is in research.
I'm originally trained as aresearcher and in sexual and
reproductive health researchspecifically.

(08:07):
And how I discovered theEnneagram was in college, um, a
friend of mine was taking, uh, Iguess a psychology class where
they use the wisdom of theEnneagram book.
So I came across the book andlike, none of my friend group
was that interested in it, but Istarted reading it.
And as soon as I got to five, itwas describing all the things

(08:29):
unhealthy fives do.
And You know, college studentstend not to be that healthy.
I was like, Oh my God, this is acomplete list of everything I
do.
That's weird or confusing orthat people don't like.
And I thought it was just me andyou know, something's wrong with
me.
And here's this book telling melike, no, everyone who's a five

(08:52):
is wildly private, keep secrets,you know, all these things I was
doing.
So I knew I was a five rightaway.
It was really obvious to me.
Amen.
That was 15, 16 years ago.
I've been working with theenneagram 16 years.
Um, I just loved it ever sincethen.
It really helped me understandpeople and, um, later on to help

(09:16):
people.
So, My research is at theintersection of sexuality and
the Enneagram, which are kind ofmy two passions.

What inspired both of you to then like take
this knowledge and integrate itinto the work that you're doing?
Because.
I mean, I, I could see how itwould be easy to be like, Oh,
this kind of like makes sense alittle bit, but I'm going to
keep doing my normal researchor, or therapy practice.

Dr. Sam (09:43):
Yeah.
So in my case, I really wantedto go back to school and do an
advanced degree.
Um, I'm a type five, like I'mobsessed with learning and
school.
I'm currently talking myself outof doing like another degree
program already, even though Ijust finished one.
So, um, I was just trying tofigure out what to study.
And, um, my best friend actuallyhelped me who's a nine also, um,

(10:06):
helped me figure out like, Oh,what, what's your passions?
Like, that's what you shouldstudy.
And I was like, well, you know,it's definitely sex, sexuality,
and the Enneagram has anyonelooked at that?
And you know, more or less, noone had looked at it in a
research approach.
Um, when I began the researchthat I did, um, later on, some

(10:26):
people started looking at it aswell.
And it just was a perfect fitfor me because it's like my two
things that I love talkingabout, never get tired of, and,
and, You definitely have to picksomething you never get tired of
because you're going to bethinking about nothing but that
for like four to seven yearswhen you do a PhD.

Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Why did you choose sexual, likewhy sexuality?
Like why is this an interestingtopic for, for the two of you?

Dr. Sam (10:55):
That's a deeper question.
I feel like, um, that I don'tknow if I've talked about on
podcasts before.
Um, so I, I think for me, like Igrew up in a, you know, Like a
conservative county with no sexeducation.
Um, my mom at the time, she'sprobably going to listen to
this.
So I'm going to be kind to her.

(11:16):
But at the time she was reallyin this like evangelical
Christian phase, which wasreally sex suppressive.
Then I'm a sexual subtype.
We'll talk about like what thatmeans with sex, but basically
like I was feeling reallysuppressed by my environment.
And I ended up becoming theperson that was like, taking
friends to the health departmentto get birth control, like

(11:38):
behind their parents backs.
I was like, no, we're going tolike take control of our own
sexual health.
And then it just ended up beingreally inspiring for me.
So I ended up working in, inresearch in that arena.

What about you, Lindsay?

Lyndsey (11:52):
um, for me.
It's kind of two pieces.
So first with the Enneagram, Ithink what was huge and why I
started using it in my practicewas actually more understanding
of myself, and then even moreunderstanding.
So I'm married to a five,married to a five as well, who's
a self preservation five.
And I think for me, sort of theaha moment and why I thought it
would be very helpful withclients in my offices is that my

(12:15):
husband has this habitTranscribed Um, he doesn't
listen to these, but he probablywouldn't like it that I shares
these things, but I'm like, youknow, um, he, he would ask me a
lot of questions and what wouldcome off to me would be that he
was questioning that I didn'tknow what I was talking about or
trying to start an argument withme.
And it would be very difficultfor me that this was kind of

(12:37):
happening in relationship.
And I think.
Um, what I realized when I kindof had the aha moment was when I
was learning more about fivesand that the way that they try
to connect to others is byasking those more inquisitive
questions.
And so when he was asking me,you know, where did you read
that?
Where'd you get thatinformation?
He was actually not like, youdon't know what you're talking

(12:58):
about.
I'm asking you this because Iwant to learn more about you.
And I want to learn more aboutmore about the things that are
interesting to you.
And so it became almost thisability to kind of switch that
lens.
I'm like, Oh, like actually whathe's doing is really.
endearing in a way of connectingdeeper to me.
But because of my, my, mynineness and wanting the
environment to be calm and notwanting have had to have

(13:20):
conflict, I was interpretingsort of this behavior as a way
to start conflict with me or totell me that I didn't know what
I was talking about or whateverelse it might be.
And so that kind of brought meinto then bringing it in with
clients, which has actually beenreally huge in my couples
therapy work.
Um, the sexuality piece, so, um,when I, most therapists get like

(13:40):
a course in sexuality, some getnone.
Um, and so when I was at mypracticum site, which was a, um,
medical and mental health centerfor people that didn't have
health insurance, unfortunatelyit's closed now because they
couldn't get the funding.
But at the time I was one of twomarriage and family therapists
Practicum students there and therest were either psychologist

(14:04):
students or LPCC students orlicensed clinical social
workers.
And so because there were two ofus, we got all of the couples
that would come in.
And I didn't feel like I'm like,and of course, when couples come
in, they're going to talk aboutsex.
And I didn't feel like, I'mlike, I'm not even sure where to
go with this with clients andthat's what sort of pursued me

(14:25):
towards going into sex therapy.
The other piece for me too was,um, I didn't see people like me,
which we're going to talk abouta little bit more when we talk
about instincts in the sexualityworld.
Um, and a lot of this now I'velearned is because I'm a social
dominant who has the sexualinstinct in the repressed
position.
But they're just like, we're notpeople like me out there doing

(14:45):
sexuality work.
And I wanted people like me tofeel seen, um, and really have
some way that they could go toand in a lot of ways sort of
start to have the voice for thepeople that were social
dominance and self preservationdominance, because most of the
sexuality work that has beendone has been done by sexual
instinct dominance, and then youget that sort of lens of like,

(15:05):
this is what sex should be like,yet, um, Social and self
preservers don't approach sex orthink about sex that way.
And I didn't know that languageat the time, but I just knew I'm
like, is there something wrongwith me?
I don't see sex this way.
And a lot of my clients havealso have also felt that way.

Yeah, and I have noticed that, too, where it
becomes almost like thishierarchical thing, like, the
more free you are, like,expressively, the better.
And, um, I do think that it'simportant to honor our own,
like, whatever is happening forus internally with that.
And I'm sure the both of you canspeak a lot more to that than I
can, of course.

(15:45):
Um, Um, but I think that makessense, coming from, you know,
each of your differentbackgrounds.
And I think, Sam, we couldprobably have a whole long
podcast about purity culturebecause I was, I grew up in
that.
And so, um, I have a lot ofthoughts on how that impacted me
though, to be frank, I see itimpacting me really differently

(16:08):
as a sexual dominant.
Subtype, um, versus friends ofmine who were social or self
pressed dominant, like in someways I was like, but we're all
still, you know, wink, wink,like nobody's actually like
listening to that.
Right.
Um, and I think it was just likea different approach for me,

Dr. Sam (16:25):
Can relate.

So I'm curious.
Thanks.
What do you think about how weeach approach sexuality through
the lens of our dominantinstinct?
I know you guys talk a lot aboutall the different types, but I'd
love to focus a little bit moreon the instincts first.
Um, and maybe we'll just jumpstraight into the run through if

(16:49):
that, it makes the most sensefor you guys talking through the
self preservation, social andsexual approaches to sexuality.

Dr. Sam (16:57):
Sure.
and I'll just say one quicknote, which is that, um, my
research was originally just ontype, although I had collected
information on instinct as wellto see if there were patterns.
And the more I, um, Like learnedand the more I worked with
Lindsay and our othercolleagues, the more we realized
that dominant instinct orsubtype is actually more

(17:19):
influential or at leastextremely influential on
sexuality.
So it's, it's a good place tostart for sure.

Lyndsey (17:27):
I was gonna say what you're mentioning to Sam is
like, we are also in the processof doing small focus groups with
each type and it's instinctualstacking.
So hopefully, hopefully we'llhave like more information and
not that long about that aswell.
Um, I can just start and talk alittle bit about, um, the social
instinct and sort of how theyapproach sexuality and sort of

(17:48):
the meaning that they make outof sex.
And I think one of the importantthings that we always talk about
too, is, is that a lot of thisis about the meaning that we
make, right?
And all of us make differentmeaning around what sexuality
means.
And so when we're talking aboutthis, we're talking about sort
of the meaning that the socialinstinct is going to make.
And so for social instincts, ittends to be about bonding.

(18:09):
And reassurance and connectionto the partner.
Um, and so it's, it's more aboutlike, you know, if, if we're
close and bonded and connected,then sex is sort of part of what
happens with that, right?
It's more of a give and take,it's a reciprocal, you know,
what I do notice is, is thatyour social dominance are the
ones that really have a good,like grasp on like, when's the

(18:29):
last time we had sex and weshould probably have sex again,
if we haven't in a while,because that's going to make
sure that we're going to staybonded and connected.
They can be.
Um, ones that are more aboutservice, right?
Like I, I could take it or leavesex, but this will create more
connection and bonding in myrelationship.
So I'm willing to give sex tokind of keep that bonding and

(18:50):
connection there.
Maybe even when they're not asinterested in sexual intimacy as
well.
Um, they tend to use likerelational tactics to kind of
build connection and get closerto people.
So it's like, um, you know, oneof the things that I always
think is interesting is like alot of how I, you know, I do a
lot of this like relationaltactics and building.
People sometimes didn't evenknow I was flirting with them or

(19:11):
I was interested in them becauseI wasn't, I wasn't, they weren't
getting the signals or anything.
And I'm like, I'm asking allthese questions about you.
I'm doing all this relating.
And that's especially if youhave, so I'm, I'm social
dominant and then I have selfpreservation necks and sexual
instincts.
And so really when I'm talkingabout that from a personal lens,
um, that really is from a, a,you know, social.

(19:32):
sexual instinct repressedposition in the sense of like, I
don't really know how to playwith the sexual energy, which
we'll talk about a little bitlater.
And so I was using a lot ofrelational tactics to get
closer.
They're, they're less jealous.
They, um, tend to have bettercapacity for like open
relationship dynamics and thingslike that.
They can do better at sort ofhaving multiple relationships at

(19:53):
one time and kind of being ableto stay connected and bonded.
They don't tend to get jealous,which can also be hard.
When we're going to talk about,which Sam will talk about the
sexual instinct is when jealousysort of signifies interest and
attraction and desire.
And they don't get jealous asfrequently or as often, um, as
well.
And so they're going to, andalso kind of cater to the

(20:14):
parents, the partner's needs andthings like that.
So that's a little bit of sortof, of what like the social
instinct looks like.
What would you add, Sam?
Did I miss anything there?

Dr. Sam (20:23):
I think you pretty much covered everything.

Lyndsey (20:27):
All right.

Dr. Sam (20:29):
Okay.
So for sexual instinct, you'regoing to find the people are
more passionate and intense.
Generally, um, And there's alsothis, like, typically sexual,
um, instinct dominant people canattract partners easily, um,
because there are people whodon't have trouble, like, dating

(20:51):
or meeting people usually.
And then there's, like, thismore overt sexism.
Sexuality to, I'm going to sayus because I'm a sexual five,
um, to us where it almost feelslike, like a leaky sexual energy
to some people, um, sexualdominance can just appear more
sexual.
That doesn't mean they actuallyare having more sex, by the way,

(21:13):
or that they even have a highersex drive.
It's just that they have likethis sort of a leak around their
sexuality.
In research, in my research, youknow, sexual dominance are
reporting that they have higherdesire for partner and sex, that
they are more sexuallyassertive, that they can, they
engage with sexually explicitmaterials even more, they are

(21:36):
not comfortable going longwithout sex, like, they're,
they're not comfortable goinglong without sex.
Sexual dominance are the leastcomfortable with sexual drive
spells.
Again, all this doesn't meannecessarily we have a higher sex
drive, but it means that we arehaving sexuality as a higher
part of our identity, or it'smore, like, essential to us to

(21:56):
feel safe that we're having asexual connection with our
partner or with anyone.
Um, there's this desire in sexitself to completely dissolve
the self, to To merge, to nothave any boundaries between
yourself and the other person.

(22:18):
So the only thing I'll add forsocial that I'm Lindsey, I don't
remember if you said is thatsocial it's more like, here's
me, here's you, we are.
Boundaried individuals and thenour boundaries are like touching
but sexual is like break downall the boundaries There's no
boundaries.
There's no me and you it's it'sone like we've completely merged

(22:39):
and that's you know Reallycommon to sexual dominance
within sex itself um There'salso, you know, the less good
part, sometimes there's a movingfrom relationship to
relationship because we'rechasing that chemical high that
we get when we really connectwith someone.

(23:00):
And if that starts to, like,burn out, which, you know,
research shows after thehoneymoon phase and the hormones
are changing, It does dropsexual dominance who don't know
they're chasing something that'simpermanent will leave a
relationship and go chase thatwith someone else.
So you can see like therelational pattern with sexual

(23:21):
dominance is that they'll gofrom relationship to
relationship more or likefantasize outside the
relationship more.
And the last thing I'll say isthe type of sort of come on, I
guess that a sexual dominantprefers is this really direct,
like sexy, passionate, likethrow everything on the ground

(23:42):
and throw you on the counter.
Like, you know, passion's moreimportant than anything else,
which can be way too much forsome of the other ones.

Yeah.
I'm laughing at that.
I, I think it's reallyinteresting.
I have kind of gotten, I'm justcurious that this has to do with
the sexual instinct because, um,I've gotten feedback in the
past, like, uh, that I seemflirtatious or, um, people like
literally get the wrong ideaabout me.

(24:15):
And like, Oh, wait, what?
No, I, you know, and I, is thata common thing with like a
sexual subtype?

Lyndsey (24:25):
I was going to say it can be kind of a both end
because like it can be somethingcommon, the sexual instinct, but
also like for me as somebody'ssexual instinct to repress,
sometimes I've, I've also gottenmessages that I'm flirting.
And part of that I think isbecause I'm not in touch with
the sexual instinct and when I'mactually putting it out there.
So you get this like both endwhere, and, and I think For, for

(24:46):
like, kind of what Sam wassaying, when you have the sexual
instinct in the repressedposition, so sort of that
opposite position of her,there's a lot of overwhelm.
When sexual instinct dominantpeople come towards you whether
it is a person that is justinterested in you and friendship
Whether it is someone that isattracted to you There is a lot
of like especially for me if Idon't know you very well a lot

(25:07):
of like I like you're trying toget too much into my boundary
and sort of like wanting to pushpeople away Um, because like I
will do more of a slow build torelationship and then you can
kind of come in.
So very much what she wassaying, that penetration of
boundaries immediately can bevery overwhelming for someone
that has sexual instinct in thelast position.

(25:28):
But the flirting thing you'retalking about, it's kind of a
both end.
Because it's kind of how, it is,it is how sexual instinct
dominance relate, and if yourelate it from somebody else
that is, they may know when it'sflirting or not, and then people
that are sexual instinctrepressed, or it's not their
dominant, they can interpretthat as intensity, kind of back
off, like, why are you flirtingwith me, um, but I have also

(25:48):
been accused of flirting withpeople when I was not, and I
think it's because I'm not intouch with that sexual instinct,
and sometimes I'm putting it outthere, not even knowing that I
am.

You're just being nice.

Lyndsey (26:01):
I'm just being nice, yes.

And suddenly somebody gave you their number.

Lyndsey (26:05):
Yeah.
Siam and I were also curious tooif like this happens to be more
like, like, I mean, we don'tknow, right?
But like, if it's more womenthan men, that gets interpreted
that way.

I would, I would think so though.
I don't really have a great,like sample size because my
husband is a social dominant.
And so we approach these thingsvery differently.
He's not a flirt at all.
He's pretty much like veryliteral about things.
So he's, he's so funny.
Um, what about self press?

Lyndsey (26:40):
So one of the interesting things with self
prez is, is like, sex is likealmost like breathing air.
It's like more about a basicneed.
And so it's like, I'm hungry, Ieat, I'm thirsty, I drink some
water.
If I'm cold, I get a blanket.
If I'm horny, I'm going to havesome sexual interaction.
Right.
And so for them, it's also aboutenergy efficiency.
And so a lot of times, you know,when they're looking for sexual

(27:03):
intimacy, it's like, they maynot want a whole lot of the
foreplay.
They might want to just get downto getting that sexual need met.
Um, and I think what it is, isthat sex is about, is about the
sexual gratification.
Um, and they're gonna be alsomore significantly impacted sort
of by context.
Like everything needs to be justright because I need to have the

(27:25):
energy.
To want to move into sexuality.
One of the things I wanted totouch on that Sam said too, that
I think is really essentialhere, even when we're talking
about self preservers is, islike a lot of times there's this
kind of this assumption thatsexual instinct dominance have
the higher libido, they havemore sexual energy in these
types of things.
And, and as Sam said, That's notnecessarily true.

(27:47):
It's just that sexual instinctdominance will move through it
more quickly where like a selfpreserver, for instance, might
choose more self pleasure overrelational pleasure if it's more
efficient and it's going to meetthe sexual need in the moment.
And so, um, and, and for social,it kind of like, it depends.
It's kind of what I say, youknow, um, but it, but it is
interesting.
I think one of the things tokeep in mind is, is that, um,

(28:10):
Engagement in sexual activitydoesn't determine desire or want
for sexual activity in the waysthat a lot of times our society
kind of puts it on there.
So self preservers oftentimesget put in the low sexual desire
place, even though as a sextherapist, I would say
oftentimes it's actually not alow sexual desire problem.

(28:30):
Um, I'll let Sam kind of addsome of her thoughts as well
with the self preserver, butthose are some of the things
that I think are essential toknow about self preservers.

Dr. Sam (28:38):
any instinct can have any level of sex drive, but.
With self preservation people,they are aware that sex is an
output of energy and we knowthat self preservation people
are really concerned with theirenergy output and having enough
energy.
So, like Lindsay said, it's notthat they don't want to have
sex.
Usually, if you're withpartnered with a self

(29:00):
preservation person who doesn'tseem like they want to have sex
a lot, they're probablystressed, busy.
Tired, hungry, cold, thirsty,you know, and they're like,
well, I need to have enoughenergy to meet those needs.
So sex has to kind of comeafter, even if I'm really
interested.
It's a, a real difference inframing rather than actual

(29:21):
drive.
Another thing aboutself-preservation people is that
they can be a little morecautious and squeamish around
like body fluids, hygiene.
Um.
You know, showering they like,they report that like, no, I'm
not getting near you unless youshower, you know, you have, you
have to shower if you know, wehad sex yesterday, you better

(29:43):
shower before we do it again.
That kind of thing.
Um, that's coming a lot fromself preservation people.
And then they are maybe going tobe turned off by partners who
are super like needy ordemanding A lot of foreplay, a
lot of attention.
They're going to be like, well,that's even way more energy.

(30:04):
They'd be a little happier withthe come on.
That's like kind of gettingright to it.
And they also are really happyif you make sure their basic
needs are met first.
Um, you're keeping itstraightforward.
And I'd say this is the instinctthat responds the worst to like
any kind of pressure that theyfeel you're putting on them for
sex.
No one likes that, you know,but, um, especially self

(30:26):
preservation people, you want toshow them you're interested
without putting any pressure onit.
Cause as soon as there'spressure, they feel like that
energy demand.
And then it's kind of a turnoff.

Oh yeah.
That makes sense.
I had never thought of thatbefore.
Um, I'm curious cause you bothkind of mentioned any type can
have a higher or lower, youknow, libido.
Is there a type that you findhas the highest or a, um,
Specific subtype?

Lyndsey (30:55):
I'll let Sam answer that because her research let us
know which ones that they are.

Dr. Sam (30:59):
Yeah, I'll say a word on this.
Um, so in my research on typeit's fours, sevens and eights
that report.
The highest sex, well, myresearch is on desire.
So the highest sexual desireoverall, and my particular study
was reported by four sevens andeights.
So, um, we started calling thatthe sexual triad as kind of a

(31:22):
joke.

huh.

Dr. Sam (31:25):
Again, it's tricky because.
you know, sevens and eightsspecifically just have higher
energy than everyone anyway.
So that can be contributing.
Fours have this wholeconnection, feeling deeply seen
thing.
That's such a big part of theego structure.
That can be why.
So it's not necessarily likethey're physically like,

(31:45):
Physiologically wanting sexmore, but it could be that
they're more, it's sex is moreimportant to those type
structures.
We're not actually sure on thewhy yet.
And then, like I said, sexualdominance are reporting that
they have higher desire, butfrom all the other things we've
learned, I believe, um, or, orwe believe that that's because
sex is more important part ofthe sexual dominance identity.

It sounds like you're saying that it's
just more of their focus ofattention, kind of like with all
the Dine types, we talk aboutfocus of attention, sexual
dominance, it's just more of thefocus of like, they're aware of
how much desire they have on aday to day basis, or, how much
they're paying attention tothat.
Mm

Dr. Sam (32:25):
exactly.
And even further, I at leastteach it that the instincts are
around our evolutionarysurvival.
So for a sexual dominant, beingdesired, having desire, having
sex, like the mating instinct isactually life or death to us.
Because that's how we help thespecies survive.

(32:48):
And similarly, you know, foreach, so for self preservation,
like gathering resources, makingsure we have enough before we
have pleasure is a life or deathimportance.
And for socials, ensuring myplace in the group and that I'm
bonded and connected with mytribe, even if my tribe is just
my family, that's life or deathimportant, um, as sex relates to

(33:09):
that or not.

Lyndsey (33:11):
Well, and I think it's interesting when you talk about
that, Sam, too, because I thinksometimes relationally, what's
more important for like socialsand self preservers, it may not
be so much on sex.
They may feel strongly loved,cared for, connected in the
relationship, and all of that aswell.
And so for me, it's, it's, it's,It's much more essential that
like emotional connection,quality time, um, which this is

(33:34):
this, the piece that I'm sayingit's about social, but it's also
about being nine, um, when thoseneeds are being met, like sex
doesn't be like sex, like abonus to me.
It's not like the main focus tome.
Right.
Um, it's something that I enjoy.
It's pleasurable, but it isdefinitely not life and death.
Right.
Um, and like for self preserversor like even for my spouse, it's

(33:55):
like, if I have energy, I enjoyit.
But like, Um, I mean, there aretimes, and again, I hope he
doesn't listen to this, there istimes he would rather read a
book than have sex.
I mean, this has actuallyhappened.
I was actually hoping to readthis chapter tonight.
What do you think about tomorrownight instead, for instance?

(34:15):
he doesn't, that's not how hegets like the, the, the deeper
connection or the closeness.
To me, that's like if I, if I'mtended to and taken care of.
Right.
Well, for him, it's yeah.
So it's just an interestingperspective, but it is life and
death for sexual instinctdominance.
And when they come into myoffice and you're paired with a
self preserve or you're pairedwith a social, like it can be a
huge, huge issue or concern,right?

(34:37):
Because, um, you know, sometimesfor the sexual dominant, I can't
understand why my self preserverlike wouldn't want to be more
playful and play with sexualenergy.
Like, why wouldn't you want thekind of before pieces?
Right.
Um, and it can feel like they'renot desire, they're not loved.
And so this is where we see someof those relational problems
kind of come into play too, isjust the dynamics between,

(34:58):
between the twos.
And it's, and it's a frequentthing that I see in my office
and it's, and, Knowing theEnneagram and knowing the
dominant instincts has been hugefor people to feel like they can
be more seen, more generous foreach, with each other and things
like that as well.

Yeah.
Yeah.
That's so helpful.
I think, especially because, youknow, like I mentioned in my own
upbringing, the purity cultureconcept was so much around only
men have a sex drive and womendo not.
And so then, and, and, you know,if you are attractive at all,
men will want to just, Jump yourbones basically, just like, um,

(35:39):
and so then you become an adultand you're like in these
different spaces and differentpeople are just different.
And so it doesn't fit in thoselike really cut and dry
categories and it makes itdifficult because you know,
those emotions do get involved.
Like, Oh, am I just notdesirable or am I a not enough
or those sorts of things?

Lyndsey (35:58):
Definitely.

Dr. Sam (35:59):
about the men who were raised in that culture, when we
get our types, like our, likeour lovely sixes, our nines,
even our fours, our males ofthose types, they're like, why
am I not like always initiatingsex?
That's what men are supposed todo.
Like, there's something wrongwith me.
With like, no, every type sixhas a trouble initiating sex.

(36:19):
Every type nine isn't sure if itought to cause conflict.
So they step back, you know,every four needs to feel
emotionally connected.
And so those, those messages areso damaging.

Yeah.
Yeah.
They really are.
I think we touched on it for thesexual subtypes or the sexual
dominant instinct, but, um, arethere any other things that
challenges you want, want to addto, um, for self-preservation or
social?

Dr. Sam (36:45):
Yeah, definitely.

Lyndsey (36:48):
I, I could talk on the social a little bit, and I'll
just even talk about, you know,sort of some of the experience.
Well, one is the tend to be lessjealous, and sometimes jealousy,
you know, alerts desire andattraction and want.
Um, but one of the reallyinteresting things, and one of
the common complaints that Ihave gotten in many
relationships, and this reallyhas to do with, again, my

(37:08):
particular stacking, which issocial first and sexual instinct
last.
I think it would look a littledifferent.
Actually, I know it would look alittle different if I were
social sexual, but I can be soin tune to everybody.
Like if we're at a socialgathering or at a party, I can
be so in tune to everybody elsethat I am not connecting to my
partner or making them feelspecial or making them feel seen

(37:30):
or desired sort of in thatsocial gathering.
I, I just kind of have alwaysassumed, which was a story I
used to tell myself, is like,they're fine.
They know where I stand withthem.
They know we have a close andconnected and bonded
relationship.
But I have had that complaint oflike, you don't pay attention to
me.
You're not like looking me inthe eyes.

(37:50):
You're like not touching me asyou walk by.
And, and, and for a while I kindof thought like that might be
their problem.
And now I'm recognizing thatthat's really a me.
Me and them problem.
It's, it's an us problem, right?
And so I think there's atendency for social dominance,
maybe not to be as in tune tothe partner.
Also always wanting to bringyour partner on social

(38:10):
engagements and doing thingssocially, where maybe they just
want time just with you and theydon't want to go to a social
activity.
And so I think that those aresome places that sexuality or
just desire or connection.
Um, and I think too, like evenwith like the.
Keeping the ticker of like howlong we've had sex.
Um, in some ways, like it'sgreat that social dominants are

(38:32):
willing to like serve theirpartners in this way.
But I also think of like, youknow, and especially like being
like some of your more like, um,accommodating types, you know,
so like your three, six andnine, which are kind of more
your attachment types in thesense of like, Oh, well, I think
I need to have sex to stayconnected and bond.
And I'm not actually seeking outsex for my own pleasure, desire,
or want.

(38:53):
Um, and being able to reallytune into, like, especially for
nines in particular, becausenines oftentimes, um, are, well,
three, six and nine inparticular, often looking to
their partners, um, if we lookat the attachment triad to like,
what do they need sexually, anda lot of the growth there is
really knowing what you,yourself, um, need.
Need and want, and that abilityto kind of ask for some, I guess

(39:15):
I'm kind of going instinct andI'm going type cause they're
intertwined.
Um, you know, oftentimes whatSam and I say is like that the
instinct will set the frameworkand then your type comes in and
kind of sets the nuance.
And so, um, it's hard for me notto talk about, because like a
social, social three might lookdifferent.
A social six might lookdifferent.
Um, but yeah, we're going tohave some similar motivations.
And so it's just interesting inthe sense of like, what I've had

(39:37):
to learn to do is be moreattentive.
to partners, um, and give themsome more of that kind of like
special attention.
I don't really know whatlanguage you would use the
sexual energy energy thatthey're looking for that I'm
learning how to do.
Um, so that would be my answerfor social.
What would you add for thesexual?
Oh, we already talked about,what would you add anything else
for sexual that you would addSam?

Dr. Sam (39:59):
Yeah, I have something to add for all three of them
actually.
So for sexual, um, I had talkedabout some of them, but another
struggle with sexual is aroundgetting bored with sexual
routine or if the sex isn'tgoing to that deeply merged
place, which it may not be if,you know, you're partnered with
a different instinct, then justkind of burning out and not

(40:21):
being interested, like gettingattached to only this, like, Ego
shattering version of sex, as iflike other versions of sex
aren't good.
Um, that could be a struggle forsexuals as well.
And then for self preservation,that's where we tend to see a
lot of challenges around, um,desire when there's stress.

(40:43):
So for people who've just hadkids or like work stress, just
busy times in life, selfpreservation, people are going
to struggle with desire.
Normally, they themselves arefine with that.
They themselves are fine withthe general ebb and flow of
interest in sex, but oftentimesour partner, if they're not self
preservation as well, isn't okaywith that.

(41:04):
So, relationally, that can be aproblem for self preservation
people.
Um, and, like, even our highersex drive self preservation
people might prefer selfpleasure, like Lindsay was
saying.
And then, in some cases, like,the partner can take that
personally and feel like, youknow, why don't you want me?
And it's actually not personalto them at all, to say, meeting

(41:27):
a physical, physiological need.
So, I'd say all of that for, uh,Self preservation.
Oh, and one more thing aboutself preservation, this kind of
funny thing happens when they'refirst in a relationship where
like that sexual instinct getsreally activated during that new
relationship energy or thehoneymoon phase.
And they'll have a lot more sexthen, like they'll push through

(41:50):
contacts to have sex a lot more.
And then when that drops off,the partner can even feel bait
and switched of like, we used tohave sex all the time.
Like where did it go?
So that's, that's like a nuancedversion of something that can
happen for them.
And one thing I wanted to addfor social was, um, like Lindsay
was saying, they're the leastjealous, but also, if the

(42:13):
partner does something to belike a social embarrassment,
then it can be a huge problem.
So even if there's likeinfidelity happening, like the
social might be okay with it,but as soon as like people find
out and it's like a humiliating,it's going to be like a disaster
for them.

yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So I'm curious if you have anypractical advice, um, for people
who are just kind of in thisdiscovery process with
sexuality, like, um, anypractices or skills that You can
recommend as they explore.

Dr. Sam (42:52):
Um, yeah, that's a great question.
Go ahead,

Lyndsey (42:54):
that is, I was going to say, I wanted to go back to the
piece that you were talkingabout too, just about the sexual
instinct dominant comingdominance coming to the front.
That will happen for.
Anybody in new relationships,despite what their actual
dominant instinct is.
Um, and it, and it can be ultraconfusing for people after that
nine months to a year and ahalf, if the partner's sexual

(43:15):
instinct to repress, becausethey don't understand where that
energy went or where it camefrom.
And, and it was interestingbecause I got one of the things
that Sam and I talked about is Ithought this energy only lasted
the first nine months to a yearand a half.
And Sam has informed me that yousexual instinct dominance go
back to it.
And I was like, Ooh, how do youdo that?
Um, and so that was a veryinteresting thing for me to

(43:38):
learn even in particular,because I thought, well, that's
just the first nine months to ayear and a half when you're in a
relationship.
And then that doesn't existanymore.
Right guys.
And she's like, no.
It does for sexual instinctdominance.
And I'm like, well, I want someof that.
How do I get that back?
Um, and I think like eventalking about like some of the
things that you can, you can doto kind of work on this in self

(43:59):
discovery.
Like I'll even just talk about,um, some of the things you can
do when you are sexual instinctrepressed.
Um, there were some reallyinteresting things and this has
actually come from colleagues.
One is when you're sexuallyinstinct repressed, just for
people that are partnered withthem, they don't know what
you're talking about when you'resexual instinct dominant.
Like we don't have a clue.
And one of the reallyinteresting things is I am

(44:20):
starting to really understandand I'm starting to do work
myself to tap more into that.
But because self preservationand social have really good
definitions to them, it's easyfor us, it's easier for us to
understand if that's in therepressed position versus when
sexual instinct is in therepressed position.
And so there can be this veryconfusing conversation that can

(44:40):
happen between sexual instinctdominance and sexual instinct
repressed because we don't knowwhat you're talking about.
We don't get what you mean byplaying with sexual energy.
Like, what is that?
How do you do that?
Um, but one of the things thathas been helpful for me, and
actually this has been, um,through our little group and
things that people havesuggested for me, one was
changing the color of clothingthat I wear.

(45:01):
So, for instance, you see thatI'm wearing kind of more of a
brighter, uh, more vibrant colorbecause wearing more vibrant
colors, it's really interesting.
Most of my wardrobe up until thelast couple of years has been
very neutral and monotone.
And a lot of sexual instinctrepressed people do wear more
monotone clothing and steppinginto color and feeling like what
it feels like to be in your bodyis a way to kind of activate

(45:23):
sexual instinct energy.
Um, and also, um, dancing ormovements, um, as well are
really good ways to sort of,First, kind of step into that.
If that's something that you'renot as comfortable with, there
are deeper places to go with.
Those are two really easy ones.
Just sort of like if you're inthat self discovery process and
you're someone that does havesexual instinct in the repressed

(45:44):
position, um, you know, how canyou, how can you kind of tap
into and experience a little bitmore, um, of that energy?

Those are so helpful.
Um, anything that you would addSam for, for a sexual, um,

Dr. Sam (46:01):
definitely.
So for sexual, um, instinctdominant people, I think it's
really important to learn how toplay with sexual energy within
boundaries, because what I seeis people either.
way too much or they'resuppressing it.
So, you know, either they'retotally boundary lists and

(46:22):
they're like sexual energyeverywhere.
Or they're like, I'm bad forfeeling this way and being this
way.
And they're suppressing it.
And then it's like coming out.
But actually like you can justlearn to live with it and enjoy
it.
Meeting that if you have asexual connection with someone
you meet, it's like, that'sokay, enjoy it, like kind of
maybe flirt if that's okaywithin the boundaries of like a

(46:44):
committed relationship thatyou're in, you know, flirt,
enjoy it, like, feel it and knowthat you don't have to then go
like, leave your monogamouscommitted relationship, like
chase that person because if youwere to do that, you know, that
Energy would wear off with themanyway, after a while.
So, um, whenever I work withpeople with this instinct, it's

(47:05):
sort of developing this as askill.
And again, working within theboundaries of any, you know, any
committed relationship you arein, and the boundaries of your
own integrity.
Like, just learn to let thisenergy move through you and not
judge it.
I think that's important.
The practice, I would say, forour sexual dominant.

Yeah.
That's so helpful.
Um, that never would haveoccurred to me, but I could see
how that would be useful.
kind of creating that safestructure, like the container.
What about for self pressanything that they can do?

Dr. Sam (47:36):
For self prez, I think, like, practicing self care as a
way of getting in the mood forsex.
So I know self care is like, Theanswer to everything, but for
self preservation dominance, youwant to, like, they want to be
making sure their basic needsare met as a way of honoring

(47:58):
their relationship and, and thesexual intimacy of their
relationship, not just forthemselves.
And they can involve the partnerin that, like, if, you know,
they want to have sex, it'slike, okay, like, help me get
cozy.
Let's maybe clean the housefirst.
Like, I need to feel safe.
And.
It's not just about them.
It's about serving therelationship as well.

(48:21):
So self care is like extra,extra important for these folks.

Yeah.
I love that idea of like helpingme get cozy or something like
that.
That sounds nice.

Lyndsey (48:32):
I was going to say, like, I find, well, for
everybody, but in particular forself preservers, like making the
bedroom the, like, sanctuary.
And so, like, even the rest ofyour house isn't exactly how you
want it.
Like, being very intentionalabout, like, picking the cozy,
comfortable blankets that youlike, how they feel on your
body, right?
Having the kind of lighting thatis more inducive to sexual
energy.

(48:52):
Like, when they exercise, like,you All of my clients, but I
think this is a really good onefor self preservers, um, is like
paying attention to like yourfive senses and how sexual
energy is either turned on orturned off.
Um, and because self preserversare so much more influenced by
this, it's, but it's going to begood for them to pay attention
to it.
So like foods you eat, likeshe's saying, like.

(49:13):
Don't eat the foods that aregoing to give you, like, make
you feel bloated and like, ugh,right?
Like eat the, eat the foods thatyou know are going to be more
conducive to sexual energy,right?
Like maybe even it's putting onmusic that brings up nostalgia
in the bedroom when you're goingto be sexual.
So it is kind of more of almostsetting the scene and setting
the environment to be moreconducive to like relational
sex.

(49:34):
Um, right in the things likethat as well.
And so I think just, and anybodycan benefit from that exercise,
right?
Really paying attention and itjust brings you into more
presence in your body.
And like, what are we doing dayin and day out that either turns
off, turns on sexual energy orturns off sexual energy, sexual
instinct dominance are gonna bewell, well aware, um, your
socials and self preserversprobably need to understand a

(49:55):
little bit more of the thingsthat they're doing day to day
that are either turning it on orturning it off.
But that's also a great way toget into that.

Yeah.
And I think that's an, that's animportant point as well because
I think that this conversation,it, it, might sound to listeners
like, Oh, well, it must be niceto be like that, you know, the
sexual dominant instinct.
Um, it's, I think it's importantto point out that within our
instincts, we all have thesedifferent spheres that come a

(50:24):
little bit more naturally andwe're a little bit more tuned
into.
So it's not as if there's some,something better about one
instinct or another, we're justdifferent in the way that we're
kind of paying attention, likeour lenses on the world.
Um, so I think that's a reallyimportant thing that I'm just.
Kind of considering what mylistener might be thinking right
now.

(50:44):
Um, okay.
Final random question.
I'm just curious if you have anytips for people who have a
really hard time bringing thisconversation up with their
partner.

Lyndsey (50:55):
So the interesting thing is, I think you'd ask
about like a book to bring up,you know, that we, that
influenced us.
It's actually, honestly, one ofthe things that I do in my
practice, and I'll talk aboutwhat the book is, is, is that it
is really hard to talk aboutsexuality.
So I've been in my therapypractice, like I told you, 12
years.
In that 12 years, only twopeople, two people have come in

(51:16):
with healthy sexual messagingand sexuality.
Most of us have grown up in likesimilar to like purity culture,
more conservative religiousbackgrounds, or we grew up in a
culture where it's like, it's,it's not okay to talk about,
it's something that's secret,it's something that we keep kind
of behind closed doors.
And so most of us do not havethe language or the capacity or

(51:37):
the ability to even know how tostart these conversations.
And so one of, yeah, and it, andit's so, and it's so hard, um,
in that sense.
And.
What I do is every client thatcomes into my office gets a
sexuality book together thatactually creates the platform to
have the conversation.
Um, and I can share, I knowyou'd ask us like, what's your
book?

(51:57):
That's influenced you.
Um, I can share what that bookis later, just to give you an
idea, but it's like having abook as your platform to have
the conversation can be a greatplace to start because then it's
like, I'm not just bringing thisup to you.
Hey, let's read this booktogether.
And in the, in the book, it asksus some questions like, who are
you?
And it just, it just kind ofneutralizes it a little bit.
It makes it feel safer forpeople to actually have that

(52:18):
conversation because now it'snot, I'm not bringing up
something that I'm afraid you'regoing to like or not like or be
uncomfortable with.
It's a, it was something thatwas suggested in the book for us
to have conversation with, andit kind of just, it kind of just
makes it easier and safer forpeople to do so.

Yeah.
Just opening like the, thecuriosity around it.
That makes sense.
Okay.
Well, before we jump into thosequestions, which I'm excited to
hear what this book is going tobe, um, where can people find
you?

Dr. Sam (52:44):
Okay, well, um, the best place is probably on
Instagram at enneagasm, E N N EA underscore G A S M.
Um, that's where I do the, youknow, post the most, but also my
website, enneagramsexpert.
com.
And on Instagram, Lindsay and Ido a monthly series called sexy

(53:06):
first Friday on the first Fridayof every month we do as an
Instagram live with differenttopics and subtopics of the
Enneagram and sex.

Perfect.
That's so fun.
Okay.
What about you, Lindsay?

Lyndsey (53:22):
Um, the best place to find me probably also is
Instagram, and it's justlindsayfrasierlmft on Instagram.
Otherwise, my website is justlindsayfrasier.
com.
Um, but I do put quite a bit ofcontent, um, up on Instagram as
well around sexuality,Enneagram, and just
relationships.
And yes, Sexy, we have SexyFirst Fridays.

(53:44):
Um, and for people that don't goon Instagram, we do also post
all of those on a YouTubechannel.
Um, which I think isRelationships, I can maybe let
you know what that is later,Stephanie, for people to look
at.
Because I think it's EnneagramRelationships and Sexuality, I
think is what it's called.
But I can definitely give youwhat the exact name of that
YouTube channel is too.
Because I have, I have some, um,I have some friends that are not
really on social media, but theyreally wanted to see those sexy

(54:07):
first Fridays.
And so we've also put them on aYouTube channel so people can
watch them there if they don'twant to be on social media.
Um,

show notes because I know that people will
be excited to check those out.
Um, okay.
So finally, last two questions.
Tell me about a book that hashelped you refresh you or shaped
you in the last year.
And let's start with Lindsay,because I know you already
teased what your book might be.

Lyndsey (54:30):
well, this book came out in 2022 and it's called hot
and unbothered how to talk aboutthe sex.
I'll talk about about the sexyou really want to have.
Um, and what I love about herbook in particular is she is a
marriage and family therapist aswell as a.
I don't know if she's acertified sex therapist, but it
is a great book because aftereach chapter, she has questions
that people can actually talkabout, um, that really sparked

(54:54):
the conversation aroundsexuality.
Um, I used to give the joy ofsex or good vibrations as the
books to do, but like the joy ofsex has really weird and awkward
wording.
Um, it's also your 19, I thinkit was like 1960, the first one
came out in the sixties orsomething like that.
We've had tons and tons ofrevised editions.
But what I, what I like about.
That book in particular is thatshe just does such a great job

(55:15):
of having little like, um, atthe end of each chapter
questions that you and yourpartner can ask together and
that they really sparkconversation around sexuality
and make it more, more safe tohave.
And so I, that has, so havingbeen a sex therapist for over 12
years and really wanting a goodsex book, this one is great for
generalized sexuality and havingthe conversation start.

Okay.
I love it.
I'm excited to put that on mylist.
Sam, what about you?
Sure.

Dr. Sam (55:41):
Um, the book I'd like recommend for people to read is
come as you are by EmilyNagoski.
That's, and that's reallyhelpful also for couples to
read, although it's not as muchof like a workbook, but it.
It kind of like exposes a bunchof sexuality myths as myths, and
it can be, it can be reallysupportive.
Um, I read that more than a yearago, but I had a baby recently,

(56:03):
so I'm not doing a lot ofreading right now.

Yeah.
Oh, wow.
Um, yeah, I can only imagine.
Um, yeah, I was, I was curiousto ask you both about your
perspective on that book becauseit's one that I've heard so much
about.
And then I was like, you knowwhat, maybe I'll ask that off
air if it doesn't come up, butI'm, I'm glad to hear that.
I'm excited to, to read that oneas well.
Um, okay.
Final question.

(56:27):
What is a piece of advice thathas really stuck with you?
Let's go with Sam.

Dr. Sam (56:32):
Okay, so the piece of advice that Stuck with me that I
use and is also relevant tosexuality is action brings
clarity.
It was a type three many yearsago who gave me that advice.
Um, I don't know who said itoriginally, but as a five, like
I'm, I get second contemplationand not doing, and so the idea

(56:55):
that you do, you move and thenit makes.
clear what your next step is.
It was really foreign to me, soit's been really personally
helpful.
But also, it's really useful forsexuality, I think, especially
when we talk about the typesthat have lower sexual
assertiveness, which is anotherthing that I measured, um, in my
study, and I found that ninesand sixes specifically have

(57:19):
lower sexual assertiveness.
For those, like, for thosefolks.
There's a lot of waiting toinitiate sex, like does the
partner want it?
Oh, and for threes too, or not.
And action brings clarity.
It's just like, you're, you'regoing to have to make a move
before, you know, if yourpartner's interested or not, you
can't always wait for them.

(57:40):
So even though it's scary, youknow, to initiate sex, I feel
like action brings clarity islike important advice for
sexuality.
Also,

I love that advice and I literally said that
to a five not about sex Butabout just life in general like
take the mental model and put itinto the real world I told that
to a five this morning.
I

Dr. Sam (58:04):
that's why fives need threes.

Guess so, um, okay Lindsay, what about you?
What is a piece of advice thathas really stuck with you?

Lyndsey (58:14):
I think the piece of advice that really stuck with me
is that all sexuality is healthyand normal as long as it's
consensual.
Um, I think like I shared, andeven just like you mentioned,
right, like there isn't a betterway or, or a worse way to have
sexuality or what sexual sexlooks in your life.
It looks like in your life.
And I think for a long time, Ithought maybe there was
something wrong with me becauseI didn't approach it from that

(58:37):
sexual instinct dominant lens aswell.
And really it's looking at.
What is, what is the good enoughsex for your relationship?
And for some people that sexonce a year.
And for some people that sucksseveral times a week.
And I think, and it can lookmany different ways all the way
in between there.
And I think just recognizing andrealizing that all of the things

(58:57):
that we desire, want from kinkyto vanilla and anything in
between is all healthy andnormal.
As long as it's consensual.
Um, that's been huge for me.
I think it's huge for clients.
I think our society kind oftells us what are the right and
wrong ways or religion or schoolor families.
Um, and that gives people sortof that permission to step back
and be like, This is, this ishealthy and this is normal.

(59:19):
It's okay that I like the thingsthat I like or don't like the
things that I don't like.

I love that.
I think that is perfect andreally helpful for a lot of
folks like myself, um, you know,who grew up in some of these
more restrictive environments,but also just everyone.
I think a lot of us need to hearthat.
So I really appreciate that.
And I'm so grateful you've bothjoined me today.
I think this will be a reallyhelpful conversation for people
who are just kind of exploringthis, or maybe they've been

(59:48):
trying to figure it out, likewhat the heck is wrong with me
for a long time.
And I think it'll be reallyvalidating to hear, Oh,
nothing's wrong with you.
We just have these differentlenses and we need to understand
them.
Um, so I really appreciate yourtime and thanks so much.
Of

Dr. Sam (01:00:02):
Thank you for having

Lyndsey (01:00:03):
having us.

Steph Barron Hall (01:00:04):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway

(01:00:25):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.

(01:00:46):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify

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