The Enneagram of the Soul and Contemplation with Rev. Nhien Vuong

This week on Enneagram in Real Life, Stephanie Barron Hall interviews returning guest, Rev. Nhien Vuong. In this episode, Nhien and Stephanie dive deeper into Nhien’s book, The Enneagram of the Soul: A 40-Day Spiritual Companion for the 9 Types. They discuss key concepts, including the transformative power of integrating the Enneagram with contemplative practice. They explore the idea that you are not your type, but rather your type is a gateway to greater self-awareness and spiritual freedom. The conversation emphasizes the importance of moving beyond simply self-describing to actually doing the inner work and practicing self-compassion. Nhien also breaks down conscious communication (from her book) for each type. 

Read more in Nhien’s book! Grab a copy of The Enneagram of the Soul here. 

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Find the full show notes here:  https://www.ninetypes.co/blog/the-enneagram-of-the-soul-with-rev-nhien-vuong

🔗 Connect with Reverend Nhien Vuong!

📷Nhien’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evolvingenneagram/

💻Nhien’s website: https://evolvingenneagram.com/

🎥Youtube: www.youtube.com/@evolvingenneagram

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🎥 Stephanie’s Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@stephbarronhall

Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.

Episode Transcript

Nhien Vuong (00:00):
first we find the Enneagram, we're like, oh my

(00:01):
God, this seems like me.
Like this is describing mybehavior.
but we start to realize thatactually It's a strategy, that I
adopted early on that I've nowcome to feel that like this is
me.
so understanding that I am notmy type is actually the
beginning of opening to thefullness of who I am that is

(00:24):
outside the construct of three,And so, so this journey is about
recognizing there are thingsbehind that shell of personality
for all of us, right?
But how can we embrace that as apart of welcoming your true,
authentic self,

(00:48):
Welcome to Enneagram in RealLife, the podcast where we
explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BarronHall, and on today's episode,
I'm joined once again byReverend.
If you've been listening to thepodcast for a few months, you
might have heard my episode withIan back in the spring, but on

(01:09):
this episode I wanted to do adeeper dive on her book, which
is called The Enneagram of theSoul, A 40 Day Spiritual
Companion for the Nine TypesWith A Forward From the One and
Only Russ Hudson.
So Nen is an internationallyaccredited Enneagram
professional with distinction, acertified Somatic Enneagram
facilitator and the founder ofEvolving Enneagram.

(01:32):
She's been studying theEnneagram since 2002, teaching
it since 2007, and trainingother Enneagram professionals
since 2017.
She holds a Juris doctor fromStanford Law School, a master of
Divinity from Unity Instituteand Seminary, and a Bachelor of
Arts and Philosophy from uc,Irvine.
Born in wartime Vietnam andraised in the United States.

(01:54):
She comes from a family ofrefugees who built their lives
from the ground up.
N spiritual companions,individuals from diverse
backgrounds from around theworld.
She regularly offersscholarships for evolving
enneagrams of manytransformational programs and
donates her time to variousnonprofits and the incarcerated.
Her extensive experience inpastoral care, community

(02:16):
building and conflict resolutionhelp to foster a world where
everyone belongs.
So make sure to check out herbook.
It's called The Enneagram of theSoul.
On today's episode, I chose afew passages that I really
liked.
I wanted to get a, a deeper divein the book, and then I, chose a
few of the sections, whichyou'll hear a little bit more
about as we discuss, but that Ireally liked and wanted to talk

(02:40):
more about, and.
When I tell you I, the amount ofpassages I pulled out, I was
really optimistic as a classicthree, about how much we could
get through in this short amountof time that we had.
But this will be a verypractical episode for you.
So it's full of lots of helpfulinformation.
Background on using the n Agramfor personal transformation and

(03:05):
just some really helpful tips,um, for each of the types.
I also wanted to share with youthat Nian is starting Her own
practitioner training.
So this is called theContemplative Enneagram, and
it's a practitioner training andcertification program, and it
starts September, 2025.
Now, like I mentioned, Nan hasbeen teaching the Enneagram For

(03:25):
nearly 20 years.
And so she's a really goodperson to learn from, to learn
both the theoretical side ofthis tool as well as the
practical side.
she a accredited by theInternational Enneagram
Association and she.
Has developed a five moduletraining.
Um, so it starts September 12th,2025, and it ends, the fifth

(03:47):
module will end, in September of2026.
you can find all of theinformation for this training on
evolving enneagram.com.
but I'll link all of the infothat you'll need, in the show
notes as well, just in case youwanna check it out.
Um, if you're interested in thatat all, definitely check out
contemplative Enneagram becauseI think that she, I is an
excellent guide and resource.

(04:09):
So, without further ado, here'smy conversation with Yan Wang
and Our discussion about herbook Enneagram for the Soul.

Stephanie Barron Hall (04:18):
Well, Reverend Nin vg, welcome back to
the podcast.

Nhien Vuong (04:22):
It is so great to be here.

Stephanie Barron Hall (04:24):
I'm so happy to have you back now that
I've finally gotten to read yourbook.
and we've just been chattingabout, you know, different
takeaways and everything and,and truly I think that if we
could go step by step throughthe entire book, that would be
ideal.
Um, but turns out some of us aregonna have to read it instead of
having you walk us through itinstead.

(04:45):
but I'm just excited to talkabout some of these topics
today.

Nhien Vuong (04:51):
yeah.
Yeah.
It's such an honor.
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (04:54):
so I'm wondering if to start out, we
could talk a little bit aboutthe structure of the book.
I think that.
We did talk about this lasttime, but if you can just
describe again, you know, partone, how you structured that,
and then part two.

Nhien Vuong (05:08):
Yes.
Yeah.
So I opened the book with, firstan intro, then an Enneagram
primer, a really brief, like howto use this book.
Um, and then I launch into nineprinciples, nine practices, nine
prayers, and then there are 40activations.

(05:29):
So really like invitations toexplore, uh, reflections or
practices that help you to.
Break free of the fixation oftype.
And, and there's also anappendix that includes things
like, you know, if you're new tothe Enneagram, you know, go look
at these resources.

(05:50):
But also, uh, an Appendix B is,um, about if you want to build
contemplative Enneagramcommunity around the book.
And so that's how the book islaid out.
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (06:04):
I really liked it because it was both an
agram type specific and then insome spaces it wasn't, it was
like, these are just generalpractices like, for example,
centering prayers, you know,things like that, that are
helpful for all of us to get toknow.
Sure.

Nhien Vuong (06:20):
Yeah.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
Um, for two reasons.
One is first, that that was veryintentional, like even as a
quote Enneagram expert, likethat whole idea that people make
the, the Enneagram, the end allbe all like, I think is the
wrong focus, right?
Like that, that we make, thatlike, we start to worship the

(06:43):
Enneagram, if you will.
And, and including the practiceis like, well, actually now that
you know the Enneagram, how arewe applying it to our
transformation, to our healing,to our, you know, like what I
hope is our, our desire forgreater love and peace in the
world.
And without the practices, theEnneagram is just a map you're

(07:04):
looking at, right?
Or I say in the book, just themenu you're reading without
eating like the food, right?
So yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (07:12):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I really like that toobecause, you know, you touched
on it in one, one of theprinciples, but, um, it works if
you work it, that concept.
Um, and, you know, it's, it'sinviting us into that work of
not just describing ourselves.
And that's actually somethingthat I've emphasized as well.

(07:34):
And admittedly, I've beenaccused of being.
A bit of a three about it in thesense of how, I think as threes
we want, like, um, you know,anytime there's a, a concept
introduced to us, we ask, okay,so what, like, what do I do with
this?

(07:54):
And of course that can have somenegative implications at times,
but it's also one of the giftsthat we can bring into this work
of, of saying like, okay, likelet's actually talk about how
we're gonna make this happen indaily

Nhien Vuong (08:07):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I was very struck by how it isboth the, the, um, fixation and
the gift of the three that welike things to be pragmatic, you
know, and have outcomes, right.
Like visible, tangible outcomes.
And, you know, and, and I thinka part of what I talk about in

(08:28):
the book is that these qualitiesof all of our types.
Are not bad, they're all gifts.
It's just that we overdo them.
Right?
It's that, and, and it's notjust that we overdo them, but we
don't realize when we aretrapped by them, uh, we don't
realize that we're not actingout of a place of freedom.

(08:48):
So it's not about like, I mean,to me the three's effectiveness
in the capacity to get thingsdone.
I like to tell people like, youknow, there's sort of a negative
connotation now to the idea of,uh, um.
Even productivity in the world,right?
Like producing.
And I'm like, well, but if youhire someone to do your fence,

(09:10):
to build your fence, like youwant them to finish, like you
want the outcome of a fence,right?
So just because our culture has,um, has unhealthy threeness in
it, where the threeness iscompetitive at the expense of
relationality and things likethat, that people equate

(09:30):
productivity with something verybad now.
So it's kind of interesting to,to, and for all the types,
right?
There's a way in which all thetypes can be mis, mis uh,
construed because people, uh,especially when people
experience the unhealthy aspectsof that number, and it's highly
visible in the world and inAmerica, threeness is highly

(09:50):
visible, you know?
So, yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (09:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that framing and I thinkit's a perfect, um, segue into
the first topic I wanted todiscuss, which is one of the
principles.
You are not your type.

Nhien Vuong (10:02):
Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall (10:03):
Tell me more

Nhien Vuong (10:04):
that enough.

Stephanie Barron Hall (10:05):
Yeah.

Nhien Vuong (10:06):
so right here's a book, and everyone's like, oh, I
wanna learn my type.
And I'm like, chapter one, youare not your type, you know?
Right.
And, and so what I mean by thatis that whenever we start
talking about the Enneagram, andeven I do this, I'll say, I, I
am a three, right?
As a shortcut though, I don'tactually mean that I am a type

(10:26):
three, and I try not to use thatlanguage anymore, but it's more
of like, I lead with type threeor my, my home base, or I
default to type three, or evenI'm fixated at type three or 0.3
on the Enneagram to understandthat part of, at least from this
spiritual perspective, it's noteverybody's perspective, but
that the idea is that, oh, firstwe find the Enneagram, we're

(10:50):
like, oh my God, this seems likeme.
Like this is describing mybehavior.
But, but we start to realizethat actually it's a.
It's a strategy, uh, that Iadopted early on that I've now
come to feel that like this isme.
so understanding that I am notmy type is actually the

(11:10):
beginning of opening to thefullness of who I am that is
outside the construct of three,you know, outside.
How the three, uh, persona wouldactually limit my being.
You know?
And so there are some ways, likewe talked about doing right, of,

(11:31):
of accomplishing versus likebeing, and if I'm called to like
just enjoy and appreciate mysheer existence, like that's
whoa for a three, right?
Like really, I don't have to beproductive or purposeful right
now that I can open to that.
The threes type structure islike, no, you can't.

(11:51):
Like, you just can't.
Like, and, and so the idea ofrecognizing that I'm not just,
I'm not a three at core, right?
I fixate there, but there areparts of me that just wanna like
sit and wonder at the world,right?
That there are parts of me that,that there's this wholeness of
being that.

(12:12):
I might want to express thatmaybe people don't admire,
they're things that like aren'tcool or aren't popular, but, but
they're authentic aspects of mybeing and I no longer want to
shame them or push them down.
Or hide them.
And so, so this journey is aboutrecognizing there are things
behind that shell of personalityfor all of us, right?

(12:34):
For D like for the, for thenine, it might be the opposite.
The nine might be like thatdesire to shine is like what's
hidden.
You don't even know you have it.
You don't even have permissionto know that you have it.
Right?
That very opposite for eights inthe beginning before they find
the Enneagram.
Like they don't feel likethere's weakness or
vulnerability within themselves.

(12:55):
Right.
That that's even hidden fromthemselves and they're like, IM
an eight.
I'm strong like this.
As opposed to recognizing,actually the eight persona only
identifies with the strength andthe power in you, and then shuts
the rest out.
Right?
Yeah.
But how can we embrace that as apart of welcoming your true,

(13:15):
authentic self, right?

Stephanie Barron Hall (13:17):
Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong (13:18):
Um,

Stephanie Barron Hall (13:19):
Yeah.
And, and I think the very nextprinciple says it well as, um,
your type is a gateway tospiritual freedom,

Nhien Vuong (13:29):
yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall (13:30):
um, which I think is what you're, you're
describing and, you know,elsewhere in, in this section, I
really liked the, the comparisonof like, for example, for type
one where you say no amount ofperfecting or correcting can
ever get us the experience ofdivine perfection.

Nhien Vuong (13:47):
Yes.
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (13:49):
And you have one of these short adages
for each type.
and it really is highlightinghow our types are trying to
craft something really good,right?
Like trying to craft theexperience for threes of
intrinsic worth.
We don't know how, and so wehustle.

(14:11):
And that's how we think we'regonna get it.
And then we have to realizethat's not how we get it.

Nhien Vuong (14:14):
Right.
And not only not how we get it,but it's like the further we go
in that direction, the furtheraway we get from that sense of
worth.
Because it's almost like thatthat whole, like the foundation
or the premise was wrong, thepremise that we weren't
inherently worthy, but we canearn it just after this goal.

(14:37):
You know?
Like I'll be, I'll be worthyafter this thing I do.
Right.
Or this thing I achieve whateverit is.
Yeah, exactly.
And I, and.
And, and why is it spiritual?
From my perspective, it's thisidea that we each lost one facet
of this wholeness, right?
And like you described the oneholy perfection, and we're like,

(14:58):
oh shoot, it's lost.
And the one's like, oh, well Iwill make it happen.
I will notice what is wrong withthe world and I will correct it.
And then we will have a perfectworld.
Like, but it doesn't matter.
I keep correcting and correctingit, but all I can see are the
flaws of the world.
Same thing with three.
It's like, oh, I'm adding value.
I'm adding value.
Surely I will be valuable now.

(15:18):
You know?
Like if we're like, Nope, we aregetting further away.
Actually, it's like, because weget further away from where it
actually is within ourselves,within our own being.
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (15:29):
Well, and I think the thing that we want
the most when we're going at itfrom that kind of, I don't wanna
say wrong, like I understand whywe do it, right, but from the
wrong direction.
It's elusive.
Like I think of sixes andcertainty, you know?

Nhien Vuong (15:45):
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Um, A Course in Miracles, whichis a wisdom tradition that
inspires me, says the ego'smantra is seek, but do not find.
I was like, oh, that explains mylife.
You know?
So, know, like, oh, okay.
And that's exactly, and again,not making it bad, it's just

(16:07):
like, it's a misguided is kindof how I see it just misguided.
It's like we, you know, we'relike, keep it up, you know, it's
out here.
And I was like, no, it's notactually out there.
And, and the paradox is once Ihave it in here, I, I could
probably end up creating bettervalue in the world out there
coming from the place of mywholeness than the place of my
striving.

(16:28):
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (16:30):
I think one thing I see along these
lines a lot is when people arelike, well, I'm just this type,
so, you know, deal with it.
and I think there are a lot ofreasons for that.
I think a lot of us, especiallywhether that's.
Social media, online, or it's inthe workplace, it can be really

(16:53):
difficult to have some of thesecon deeper conversations that we
need to have.
So we're a little bit defensive.
but you talk about that a littlebit in do not weaponize the
Enneagram, this principle

Nhien Vuong (17:04):
Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall (17:05):
actually this principle says thou shalt
not weaponize the Enneagram,which I appreciate.
Um, just like the commandment,you know.
Um, and, and one of the firstthings you say in this chapter
is, um, I'd rather you not knowthe Enneagram than apply the
Enneagram without compassion.

Nhien Vuong (17:21):
Yes.
Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall (17:24):
And I'm wondering if you have some sort
of, you know, story orexperience that really drew you
to, to drill this point homebecause it feels very visceral
to me.

Nhien Vuong (17:35):
So, so I mean, I would say that maybe the first
few years of my own applicationof the Enneagram, so we really
do receive things at the levelof our current consciousness.
And I know when I first met theEnneagram, I was actually not
even on a spiritual path at thetime.

(17:56):
And so I remember the, that,that sense.
And again, tricky because wetalked last time.
Hm.
Um, about how I thought I was aone, but just like the self
criticalness was like, well,here's another thing wrong with
me.
Here's another thing I have tofix about myself.
And that's exactly that kind ofstriving.
It's like it just moved mefurther.

(18:17):
I mean, it just kept a sense ofinner peace and wholeness
further and further away.
And there were now an infinitenumber of reasons given by the
Enneagram why it wasn't okayyet.
You know, like why I had to keepworking on myself, right?
That sense of like working andimproving, whether it's
correcting or the growth mindsetof the three improving.

(18:40):
And then I saw it in otherpeople where it was like I could
see probably more easily, atleast earlier on.
How others hurt themselves.
Actually, with that samementality of this, I've already
not felt good enough all mylife, and now the Enneagram is
here and I wanna be a betterperson and look at all the ways

(19:03):
I'm not evidencing all thehigher levels of this Enneagram
type.
Right?
So that's maybe a part of thejourney, like, like a part of us
meeting it.
And that's why for me as a, as ateacher and a facilitator.
Really emphasizing compassionearly on, uh, because many

(19:24):
people don't even believe it.
They're like, sure you're right.
Uh, but it starts to seep inover time.
But yeah, hearing people use theEnneagram teachings to be like,
oh, this is another reason I'mdefective, is painful.
And then I was also doingcouples work, you know, so, so I
had my own visceral like ahasaround, you know, like, oh, I'm

(19:47):
starting from the wrongstandpoint.
Like, it's a gentle likeperspective.
But then also in couples work,in relationship work, I, I
worked with families as well,and because I'm a minister, I
also like communities.
I'm seeing people interact andthey're like, yeah, because so
and so is an eight, you know,I'm like, oh, you know, kind of
how, you know, it's like they'vealready got such a bad rap in

(20:11):
the world, these poor eights,you know, I have a lot of
compassion for how eights get.
Treated.
I mean, people will talk incommunities about those aids in
a way we don't hear about manyother types.
Right.
You know, as if like they're sotough they can handle it.
And I'm like, I'm like, first ofall, you are doing to others
what you say you never wantpeople to do to you, which is

(20:33):
put you in a box.
So Right.
And it is so like there's noroom for that person to be
anything other than that.
And you take all the evidencethat supports OC C and then you.
Lock it up.
And so that hurts both sides.
That hurts your own ability toreceive the giftedness that that
person is, who's happens toidentify as an eight, is

(20:54):
offering you because you can'teven see it.
You can't receive it, and thenthe other person feels further
damned and they're probablygonna be more when that
rejection stance double down, asyou said, that reaction, you
know, when we could probablyhear it from AIDS of like, this
is just my type, like deal withit.
It's like almost like if peoplefirst believe and and really
feel and know that they areaccepted as they are in this

(21:19):
moment.
With their egoic self shiningthrough.
Like if I came to you and I waslike, yeah, I, you know, I'm
caring about, like, I'm worriedthat I don't look good today.
And it's like, if you were like,well, well don't be such a
three.
I was like, God, that'd be sohurtful.
Right?
But if you're like, Aw, becauseshe's a three, she might be a
little bit more sensitive tothat.

(21:40):
Right?
Like that compassionate viewwill actually help me get over
it to where it's like, oh yes,I'm okay.
And that healing is diff, youknow, it's like, oh, then maybe
I will be less self-conscious.
Right?
And so, yeah, so supportingourselves and supporting others
by first recognizing how much,despite the fact that we tend to

(22:04):
say, oh, I'd hate for someone toput me in a box that we are
doing it.
Often when we're like, you'resuch an eight, you're such a
nine, you're such a two, thatkind of thing.
And so being aware of how wemight do it, and again,
compassionately letting it go torealize, Hey, I probably do it
because, you know, just like mydad used to say, you're so

(22:25):
spoiled.
You know, kind of like, likethere were these things that we,
these, um, violences that werecreate right from, from our
backgrounds.
Yeah.
So, Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall (22:40):
Yeah.
And I like that you started outwith self-compassion when
talking about that because thatis a huge blind spot for me, and
in fact, a big a, it's somethingI really struggle with.
And I think using the Enneagramand community has helped a lot
where people are like, you know,I'm listening to you and you're
actually being really hard onyourself.
Like, I have very littleawareness of that, um, on my

(23:03):
own.
And so I think that's sohelpful.
and such a big part of it too.
And I think, you know, when I'mteaching the Enneagram and
corporate and stuff, I see a lotof people, not so much
weaponizing it against otherpeople, but using it to defend
their, their actions.
where it's like, well, I'm justgonna keep going and, you know,

(23:25):
not take a break ever becauseI'm a three and that's what I
like doing.

Nhien Vuong (23:29):
Mm.

Stephanie Barron Hall (23:30):
You know, from the outside, I am watching
a person who is like on thebrink of burnout

Nhien Vuong (23:36):
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (23:37):
and I can see a crash in bird coming, but
they aren't willing to look atthat.
Right?
So that can be a challenge.
And the thing I always talkabout is we're using the N agram
to understand each other alittle bit more, understand
ourselves, but understand eachother a little bit more, so that
you can be like, oh, I couldimagine why this would be

(23:59):
difficult for this person.
I'm sitting across from.
I can imagine why, at the end ofthis onsite, this five I'm
sitting next to is totallydrained when I feel thrilled and
exhilarated as a seven.
You know what I mean?

Nhien Vuong (24:14):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
I love that you're doing that.

Stephanie Barron Hall (24:18):
taking.

Nhien Vuong (24:20):
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
And, and so to whatever extentwe do box in, I like to, so in
philosophy, which is part of mybackground, my undergrad is in
philosophy.
There's this idea calledbracketing.
You put something in brackets.
It's not like, like, maybe Idon't even know what your type
is, but I kind of just put it inbrackets.
It's like, I imagine maybe, andif I assume this, I might be

(24:42):
more compassionate.
Like, that's how I apply thebrackets of like, I don't know
what this person's type is.
I, but I imagine if they are atype eight, then, then there's a
reason why.
Whereas before I was like, whyare you so blustering coming
into this room?
Like, you know, and now I'mlike, oh, it's a defensive, you
know, stance in a way.
It's like to, to like, hey.

(25:03):
Claim the space, nobody elsecontrol me.
You know, like that kind ofenergy.
And now I have more compassionfor it because where does it
come from?
There's this armor protectingthis tenderness and
vulnerability inside, right?
Because I know that to be trueof aids, you know, just because
you are not showing it.
Like, I don't need to wait forNate to show me their

(25:23):
vulnerability, for me to knowit's there and right.
And so like, I can hold ittenderly, even if the outside is
a little bit gruffer than Imight be, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So,

Stephanie Barron Hall (25:37):
I'm wondering if you can also talk a
little bit about the importanceof community as you're doing
this work.
cause I think that's a bigemphasis throughout this book,
but also, um, something I'veheard you talk about elsewhere
too.

Nhien Vuong (25:50):
yes, yes.
It is a huge emphasis, uh, likein my life.
It's funny because I, I mighthave shared last time I used to
think I was like the, I believelike sincerely that I was the
loneliest person.
In the world.
And the problem is I didn't havepeople to ask.
You know, so like, I, like Icouldn't check to see if my
facts were accurate or anything,but that like absolute sense of

(26:13):
isolation in the world is sodifferent from the world I
inhabited.
The world hasn't changed, right.
But from the world I inhabittoday.
Um, so it's kind of ironic, butprobably in some ways perfect.
That I really teach communityand, and and mirroring.
And in my book I quote HarvilleHendricks, who teaches this

(26:35):
Imago theory of Relationship.
And he says basically we areborn in relationship.
We are wounded in relationshipand we can be healed in
relationship.
And so this idea that, um, thatyes, we come together and we
might rub each other, uh, well,we will inevitably rub each

(26:59):
other.
I, I should say, like there arepieces of that that reveal to us
where we're still wounded, youknow?
And if we're willing to kind ofbe with that and, and hold our
truth in that, bring compassionto the whole space, something
changes.
And so it's like my, it's like Ilive in a different universe now

(27:21):
because of doing work incommunity.
And I would say that, uh.
Abby Robbins wrote a book calledThe Conscious Enneagram, where
they talk about SGA,essentially, which is spiritual
community.
And so I wanna do a shout out,you know, to that, but really,

(27:42):
uh, understanding like there'san, there's a difference between
community that comes togetherbased on affiliation.
Meaning, oh, you're all mothers,so you're in a community, um, or
you like golf so you're in acommunity versus like
intentional or consciouscommunity.
And so what I really mean islike conscious community where

(28:04):
we might not have everydaythings like that are similar,
you know, like we might not evenbe friends if we had like met
each other, but.
We grow to become family becausewe're connecting with the shared
intentionality around awakeningor growth, whatever it is for
that specific community, right?

(28:25):
And, and so that shared, it'salmost like we share the
questions that we ask of life.
Not the answers necessarily.
Right.
And, and so that space creates adifferent kind of bond that I
find to be deeper and healing.
And again, allows space for usto be different, to find our own

(28:46):
answers.
But maybe we're joined togetherbecause we're asking like life
the same questions.
Like what is the meaning oflife?
And those kinds of questionslike, what's the purpose of my
existence?
You know, is love the fabric ofthe universe.
What is truth?
Like, these are the kinds ofthings I care about.
And, and so joining in communitythat cares about these questions

(29:09):
has been healing and meaningful.
And I find people say exactlythis in our communities that I
feel like I'm family with peopleI would've never been friends
with, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (29:23):
Yeah, it's so interesting, um, too,
because I have a number of thesecommunities that are, more so
Enneagram specific and.
Just having like so manydifferent generations in one
room, um, and talking about thesame topics.
It's fun to learn, from peoplewho've been there.
And it's also fun to be like,yeah, I guess you never really

(29:47):
do feel like you've got it allsorted, do you?
And as I think, uh, you know,as, as my type, I'm like, I, I
need that reminder.
'cause like I have this conceptthat the, the finish line is
achievable and it's like, oh no,I have to look at that
differently.
Um, and, and that's, I think agift as well.

Nhien Vuong (30:06):
Yeah, for sure.
So, nice.
Absolutely.
Yeah, for me, um, and it's adaily practice reminder.
It's not like, I mean, weunderstand type as default, so
as long as I've been on thisjourney, I have to remind
myself, oh.
Pay attention, receive the joy.
You know, like, like, like it'sfunny, I like, I have to coach

(30:26):
myself and so, oh, okay, I'mhere.
This is the moment, this is mylife.
Like, where am I rushing?
I mean, even like today I waslike, you know, your practice is
when you're walking, like, whydo I need to walk quickly down
the stairs to wash my dishes?
Like, where am I going?
You know, just like, I'm like,why don't I just enjoy that?
Like, I have these beautifullike hardwood floors.

(30:48):
It's a old crickety house andlike, but I love it.
It's like, has character and allthese plants, you know, it's
just like, this is my lifetoday, like today.
And yes.
So that's very much a, a, anongoing part of my practice to
remind myself to be here now andenjoy the journey.

(31:10):
yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (31:11):
it's interesting that you point out
like the, the speed walkingsituation because in the last
year in particular, I've hadsome significant health
challenges that have required meto.
Or, or force me to be slowerbecause I'm not physically able
to, um, move as quickly.
And, you know, for example, formost of our relationship, my

(31:33):
husband and I, we go for a walk.
He's, he's quite a bit tallerthan me.
and he has to run every fewsteps to like, keep up with me
walking.
And recently we were out for awalk and, um, you know, I'm
moving at my glacial pace now.

Nhien Vuong (31:51):
Oh

Stephanie Barron Hall (31:51):
is like, I never thought we would just go
out for a nice stroll, like justwalking really slowly.
And, um, it's, it's, it'sinteresting, like it does change
your perspective a lot.

Nhien Vuong (32:02):
yeah.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
Yeah.
First of all, I'm sorry aboutyour health issue.
You know, like I feel like insome ways it's like even extra
compassion for the three, havingto slow down, you know, like
what that does.
Like there's discomfort there.
Right.
Like, and my like, like Iremember I used to teach that

(32:23):
like if threes aren't ahead,they feel behind, right?
Like, so much less actuallybeing behind.
I'd be much less like, oh mygosh.
So just a lot of compassion forwhat's, uh, bound to have come
up for you, just in the midst ofthat.
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (32:39):
Yeah, for sure.
Really challenging, but, youknow, this is how we learn.
and I think I noticed that aswell, um, in these prayers that
you wrote.

Nhien Vuong (32:49):
Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall (32:50):
So you wrote the nine prayers for each
of the types, uh, or one foreach of the type.

Nhien Vuong (32:55):
Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall (32:56):
And I'm curious if you can share
anything about that process orif you just wanna share like
what.
Message did you want each typeto receive with these?

Nhien Vuong (33:08):
Oh wow.
Um, so, okay.
My process is that I think, soI've led these weekly
contemplative Enneagram groupsfor, we're in our eighth year
now, so I sit and I listen topeople.
I mean, we have five groups, soI'm listening to people share

(33:29):
about their lives and.
I do see that more and more likewhat, like used to be a very
judgmental lens on everything inmy existence is like this awe,
you suffer needlessly.
This feeling of like, we sufferneedlessly in nine different

(33:50):
ways.
You know?
And I think in some ways theprayer is like, because we don't
do crosstalk, the, the prayer ismy response to each person, you
know, around the circle.
It's like, oh, this is the giftI wanna give you the knowing of
this, you know?
Um, and that you need, I mean,and probably we all need all
nine prayers, you know, but justa little bit more honed in for

(34:14):
like, awe.
So it's, it, it's like, um, Iwanna say that I wrote this
book, but my community livedthis book.
You know, this is from people'sreal lived experiences that I
draw and, and.
Yeah, so I think maybe like, Ican almost like picture certain

(34:35):
people in, in our community as Iread it, you know, it's like,
oh, it's for you, it's for you.
And of course the Enneagramthree is, is for me, but there
are other threes in ourcommunity.
In fact, it's kind of funny,someone's in our Monday group,
it's like, I've never seen somany threes meditating.
It was hilarious.

(34:56):
That happens to be the largestgroup of threes in our Monday
group.
So if you wanna join, so, youknow, contemplatives and, and it
is funny, but like, yeah, we've,it, it's a challenge.
Usually they come during theirlike sabbatical and then they
leave when they're back at work.
But the those who stay, it'slike they get it on a certain
level, but there's still thesuffering that continues.

(35:19):
Right?
There's a default to this.
Not enough and, and, um, growthmindset, right, which is not
actually healthy for a three to,to have that growth mindset as
the beginning.
So, yes.
So I'm just looking at the booknow.
So that's, so that's the processbehind the prayers and Yeah.

(35:40):
So I hope people receive them.
The part of me is like, theseare, I'm, I'm actually
authentically and this issomething I'm letting be shown
more.
I'm authentically a really cornyperson.
Like the real me is like, I'mcheesy, you know, and like these
prayers, I was like, oh, peoplemight think these are super

(36:02):
cheesy, but I'm like, screw it.
You know?
Like, I love this and this is myheart and this is what I wanna
give, you know?
So, so yeah, I have a, I have ahuge like, kind of corny, very
idealistic streak in me.
And this is, yeah, this is thatgift.

Stephanie Barron Hall (36:19):
Yeah.
I love that.
I, what I like about theseprayers is

Nhien Vuong (36:24):
Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall (36:25):
you do talk before this about the
concept of prayer more generallybecause this, this part of the
book comes after the practicesin which you have centering
prayer and these differentthings that are contemplative
practices, but um, are notnecessarily tied to any
religious.

Nhien Vuong (36:43):
Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall (36:44):
Practice or, or spiritual, what, what's
the word?
I'm, tradition.
That's the word I'm thinking of.
but kind of got the sense toothat, you know, these are
indicated for this specifictypes, but also we all have
these different struggles.
And, and like for me, forexample, I see a lot of gluttony

(37:05):
in myself.
So type seven in the sense thatI'm like, I just have a million
ideas and I wanna try them all.
And sometimes what can bechallenging about that is to
limit myself to, to like take ona practice of limiting myself.
So then I'm like, oh, then theseven prayer might be a really
good one for me.
You know what I mean?

(37:26):
Um, I don't know if that was howyou intended them, but it feels
like they could, we could learnsomething from each of them.

Nhien Vuong (37:34):
Yes.
well, you're actually speakingto a part of what's different.
I mean, maybe it's not unique,but it's rare that a book has
activations or invitations,devotionals for all nine types,
you know?
'cause you find them for one.
But part of this work I've beendoing in community is I

(37:56):
realized, I was like, first ofall, oh.
If you put the other person'snext to yours, they might read
it, you know, and then peoplewere saying, oh, this has really
helped me have a perspective onessentially the suffering of
another number.
So I really realized that.
And then, of course, I shouldn'tsay of course, but for those of
us who don't believe, like theEnneagram is just about

(38:17):
personality, we recognize it asa map of consciousness.
That within, um, that within mywholeness contains all points on
the Enneagram and certain ones,you know, I don't believe we're
all equally all points.
And so it's not like we're alltypes.
I have a thing about that Idon't believe we're all types.

(38:38):
We have one type and yet we canexpress the dynamism of, of our
humanity, right?
Qualities that are more typicalof seven, right?
Um, and so by having it all inone place, not just a book, only
on sevens, a book only on onesor threes, like we get the
benefit of.

(38:59):
The way that we interact withall the points and thus even
more of an invitation intowholeness.
Right.
So that's like, yeah.
'cause we can also feel the oneswe're like, Ew, you know, like,
like not so much.
Right.
As well as the ones like weoverdo and we're like, yeah, I
need that prayer.
Like, you know, like how manythrees need the one stuff too,
you know, like is it's right.

(39:19):
And I will say that I've alwaysheld the sexual, so for those
who have, oh, we haven't talkedabout our types, uh, today, you
know, if, if it's okay just thatboth of us identify as sexual
threes, but with the, with youbeing self pre second and me
being social second, but thatI've always connected that.

(39:40):
To, to, to energy with sevenishness, you know that?
Yeah, yeah.
That, that, that's kind of how Itry to describe it to people.
Like I connect it with this.
It's like making, uh, choices.
Having choices, you know, that,that kind of thing.
And that like sort of boundlessenergy that doesn't like know
about conservation or managementof energy.

(40:03):
Right.
Yeah.
So the sexual dominant instinct.
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (40:08):
Yeah, I think that those overlays are so
interesting too, of justrecognizing like, oh, you know,
maybe the self pre six mightseem a bit more like this
versus, you know, the sexualsix, maybe they need to also
read the eight prayer.

Nhien Vuong (40:24):
Yes,

Stephanie Barron Hall (40:25):
know what I mean?
Or the, you know, the social oneneeds to read five and six or,
or whatever else.
I'm wondering if we can moveinto a couple of the, um,
activations.
So the activations are a 40 dayjourney to walk us into having

(40:49):
some sort of, you know,transformation is my sense.
How would you describe them?

Nhien Vuong (40:56):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's exactlyit.
Accept that, and, and this mightbe my sexual instinct coming.
I was like, I want people tochoose their own adventure.
You know?
Like, it could be 40 weeks, youdon't have to do 40 days, you
know?
Um, and for some people, uh,there's this notion, I, I call
it dowsing, which is you openthe book to like, whichever, you

(41:18):
know, page.
So I wanna say I'm very openand, and like trusting that
whatever, like your innerwisdom, like inviting that to
guide you on the journey and notlike prescribing a certain route
for you.
But the idea of like, why did Ichoose 40, uh, 40, the number
40.
Has spiritual, like symbolismacross many of the world's

(41:41):
religious traditions, religiousand spiritual traditions.
That for me, for my unitybackground, has meant like
completion.
And, and when I say that, it'slike maturation and the, uh,
from a unity perspective,there's this notion of like, you

(42:02):
know, Jesus going out into thedesert for 40 days.
You know that for me, I equatethat with the Buddha sitting
under the tree, you know, tosay, I will sit here as long as
it takes.
That's how committed I am.
So the symbolism of 40 isn'tnecessarily like, oh, it's 40

(42:22):
days, or, but it's the symbolismof like.
I care about this, this is themost important thing.
When I make it the mostimportant thing.
You know, when I devote myselfcompletely or wholeheartedly,
then the gifts arise.
So, so that's the basis of likechoosing 40 of the activations

(42:44):
that I wrote to put in thisbook.
And yes, these, um, these aredesigned to sometimes gently
like affirm you and other times,and probably more often it's
like kind of just to wiggle likethat little, the way the type is

(43:06):
so firmly embedded and just likea gentle, how about this?
You know, how about this?
It's like, whoa, that, you know,

Stephanie Barron Hall (43:15):
Yeah.

Nhien Vuong (43:15):
I didn't think of it that way.
And just to kind of budge theway the type is so entrenched in
us, right?
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (43:23):
Yeah, but I did wanna mention briefly that
day four is about freedom fromyour inner critic.
And I really liked that becauseI have done so many typing
interviews with people, and it'sextremely rare.
I've met two people who say, oh,I don't have an inner critic at
all,

Nhien Vuong (43:43):
Mm.

Stephanie Barron Hall (43:45):
but we, we put that in like firmly in
the type one camp a lot of thetime.
And so it can be confusing.
And so I like that you, broughtthat up for each type of, of
these different paths.

Nhien Vuong (43:58):
Mm.
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (44:00):
I'd love to chat a little bit about day
15, which is consciouscommunication.

Nhien Vuong (44:06):
Oh, okay.
Let me flip to that page.
So,

Stephanie Barron Hall (44:08):
Mm-hmm.
So for those of you at home whoare following along with your
book, it's on page 1 29 and theactivation here by type.
And I should mention that eachof the activations has, um,
something for each type,

Nhien Vuong (44:22):
yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall (44:23):
which I really liked.
I liked this because it's about,like you were saying, it's like
wiggling the tooth a little bit,you know what I mean?
Like changing, How we naturallygo about doing things to see
what else, what other awarenessit can bring up.
So I'd love if you would touchon each type briefly and what
was so salient for you aboutthese different words, like for

(44:46):
example, with type onecondemning to encouraging.

Nhien Vuong (44:51):
Yes, yes.
Well, so our language, you know,sort of that outer expression
can reveal of course, likewhat's actually inside.
But when we are so used to it,like we can't see that.
So to name it, to, to just bringlight to this idea that, do you

(45:11):
realize ones, that ones who wantto be so good, you know, that
you're like condemning eachmoment by how you talk.
You know, just like, oh, did youknow?
Right.
And, and then inviting thatshift in, in, in this idea that
like, I believe ones actuallywanna be encouraging.

(45:33):
They wanna be good and helpfulpeople in the world.
Right?
So picking words like that towhere it's like, oh yeah.
So the shift for ones is towatch how condemnatory they are
in their languaging in a waythat can actually disrupt the
thing that they're wanting todraw forth, right?
And then inviting languaging.
That is encouraging.
And re, and I'll add the, theextra piece to it is everything

(45:56):
I do, even like nothing I do oroffer here relationally isn't
also for the person.
Right?
So inviting the one to do that,also invite the one that was
like, oh, then I have to lookfor what's, what's positive.
I have to look for that.
I know.
No, now I get to look for thatfrom, so the term condemning to
encouraging.

(46:17):
And so maybe in yourself aswell, you can notice the
self-talk of condemning toencouraging.
for the two, uh, complaining torequesting, Ooh.
So I mean, yes, average health,you know, twos to maybe
unhealthy twos don't evenrealize, but it's their way of

(46:37):
saying, look at what I did.
Oh, it was so hard.
I'm so tired.
You know, it's like other peopleare just like, God, did you hate
life?
And the two doesn't know thatthey're necessarily like, being
so negative, but that's the, oh,if I can't actually ask for
someone to appreciate or noticewhat I need, I'll just complain

(46:58):
about how hard it was.
And maybe they will notice,right?
That, that I, I worked so I gaveso much, I sacrificed so much.
And so, so often too, don'trealize their complaint.
Right.
That, that, um, and so moving tothe empowered position of the
two, actually recognizing I havea need for affirmation or

(47:19):
appreciation, and instead ofgoing backward and around and
manipulating to get it, I willempower myself to ask for it.
You know, and, and so just real,it, it forces the two to be
like, I have needs, right?
As opposed to, oh, no, no, allof you.
You know, like, am I overly likedramatizing?

(47:40):
Like you feel it, right?
Like that energy, right?
Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall (47:44):
Well, and I think there's also a, a sense
where twos do this when it'slike, oh, I just wish that I
knew how to use my new computer,or whatever it is.
And it's a way of trying to getsomebody else to be like, oh,
I'll show you.

Nhien Vuong (47:57):
Right.

Stephanie Barron Hall (47:57):
That's so much more comfortable than
saying, Hey, will you show mehow to use this?
Um,

Nhien Vuong (48:03):
Directly asking for help.
Yeah, that's like empoweredtwoness.

Stephanie Barron Hall (48:08):
Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong (48:09):
So, oh no, we can pick on ourselves now.
So for the type three, um, movesfrom curated to candid, and I
mean, that's obvious, so we knowwhat that means.
So, so, but the unconsciousthree, and I would say.
Myself for like, not evenknowing I'm, I was a three for
years.

(48:29):
That curating is so subtle.
It can happen so quickly.
You don't know, you've justadjusted.
'cause like, oh, this room isfull of like a different kind of
people.
Like suddenly I'm talking alittle differently with a little
different accent.
It's like ridiculous.
Like, like this, you know?
And again, it's not bad orwrong, but if I don't recognize
it, then I'm livingunconsciously then.

(48:51):
Then it's like, like, and then Iwonder, oh, I'm now friends with
all these people.
I don't even like, like, becausethey thought I was like, like
them, right?
Like, so just making thesechoices where it's like, I wanna
be conscious.
It's skillful to adapt.
Two situations, but to do itunconsciously, we abandon our

(49:11):
truth, our authenticity, right?
So moving from curated tocandid, uh, candid, even saying
it feels like, oh, are we sowide open?
And we, so like, oh, we mightsay stupid things, right?
Like, we might be messy, wemight be silly.
Or, you know, and more and moremaking space for that.

(49:33):
And of course the paradox isfrom the outside, it's adorable
to watch threes be spontaneousand like real and natural.
You could feel the differencethere, the energetic difference.
Um, but from the inside it'slike, uh, uh, like the inside is
like, let's be careful here.
You know, like, we wanna lookcool, like, so, right.

Stephanie Barron Hall (49:54):
totally.
I mean, I was just thinking thisthe other day because, um, I had
friends over who've never beento my house before, and I, I'm
the type of person who wants toclean it to where it looks like
nobody's ever lived there.
However, I am physically notable to do that right now.
So it's like, well, this is justthe way that it is, and like

(50:17):
learning to accept that, um, andto learn how to like.
It doesn't mean that I'm lesshospitable if it's not like, you
know, the front yard isperfectly weeded, for example.
You know, it's challenging.

Nhien Vuong (50:37):
yes, absolutely.
And at the same time, um.
I, I don't know about for you,but for me, um, those are the
moments, right?
That like, I have felt the mostloved.
Like when I can let people seeme when I'm not like, ready to
be seen, or like my house or my,whatever it is, is not my
PowerPoints or not ready to beseen, and they see it and

(51:01):
there's something about, oh,like, I really believe, like,
they're not gonna come back thenext time because, well,
they're, I screwed it up becauseit wasn't perfect.
You know, like, you're back, youstill like me.
Like, this is crazy.
You know?
And that has been like some ofthe most healing times at times
when I, I, I made a mistake ordid something below par and I

(51:22):
wasn't like a bandage, you know,like so extreme.
But there's a part of me that'slike, oh.
Like if I'm just myself, like,that's not enough here, right?
Yeah.
all right.
Oh, I'm sure fours don't lovethis, but so fours go from wet
and windy the, the sadness, theexpression, like, do you see the

(51:44):
sadness and the depth of this,you know, kind of to cut and
dry.
So the move, it is kind of amove from the four to the one
energy of like.
Principled matter of fact.
And the gift in this is, okay,watch for how long-winded
melancholic and metaphoric youcan be in conversations, right?

(52:05):
There's this sort of spiralingin this self-referencing that
the fork can do at its ownperil, right?
Not realizing, oh, you may havelost connection with the rest of
us by the time you are, youknow, lost in your own thing.
And then for fours who say theyvalue authenticity so much, we
recognize that the truth of thetype structure is that the four

(52:31):
inside it's being over doesdramatizes the negative feeling.
So actually it's not.
Fully authentic.
It's dramatized, it'sexaggerated.
And so recognizing that, I thinkfours are motivated to be like,
oh, what part of it is real?
As opposed to, I took it and Iran with it.

(52:53):
Right?
So this will help you stoprunning with it in a way that
hurts you as a four.
And then moving into the cut anddry is going, okay, what are the
facts here?
Right?
Versus like, what is my storyabout this that I'm drawing out?
Yeah.
So again, the outer work ofcommunicating like that helps
with the inner work of likenoticing for yourself.

Stephanie Barron Hall (53:14):
Yeah, I like that each of these are, um.
Actually accomplishing what thegoal is.
You know, if, if the goal isclarity, which I do think that
fours want to convey oftenclarity of thought,

Nhien Vuong (53:27):
yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall (53:27):
this is like a way that they can do
that.

Nhien Vuong (53:29):
Yeah, that's, it's beautiful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
Um, the idea that this isactually moving towards
skillfulness in connection forall, all the types, right?
Yeah.
So for the five, from crossfive, so no, you look cross to
caring, right?

(53:51):
Yes.
You did that expression verywell.
Like you say, I hope people seeyou on video.
It's sort of like that, like alittle bit of disdain.
Maybe add to that, you know, forthe fives, and again, we're
making a little fun here of allthe numbers, but watch for how
you spontaneously challenge newinformation.
Like there's this jumping on,right?
Um, either with cold containmentor cross confrontation.

(54:13):
That's what happens, right?
And so a lot of fis there wouldjust be like the, this
cross-examination of peoplewhen.
They forget that like maybe thatperson's telling you that story
to connect with you.
Like, they're like, oh, not justlike, they just don't wanna
interact on an information levelwhere I'm going to scrutinize

(54:37):
their sources for this.
You know, I'm thinkingspecifically of a couple where
the is so cliche, but the man'sa five and the woman's a two.
Right.
You know, and she's sharingsomething and he's jumping on,
well, where did you read that?
Where did you, I was like, shecan't even get her story out to
see why this matters to her.
By the time he's like, checkingthe sources and, and, and
battling like the ideas and, andthe credibility of the ideas

(55:02):
before she can communicate.
Well, the whole point was like,what came up for her right
around this.
And so from cross to caring.

Stephanie Barron Hall (55:10):
Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong (55:11):
Yeah.
So then for sixes moving fromconcern.
To confidence, um, and thenwatch for how your care and
compassion can come across asoverweighty concern or outright
contrarians.
So a lot of times, um, I mean wecould take this in many ways,

(55:31):
like six energies always in manyways.
It depends, right?
But.
Uh, this, even this expressionof care from sixes can feel like
it's always, it's a worry energythat actually, like, I'm like, I
think I feel worse now.
Like, not better.
Right.
Like that, that you were tryingto show your care by expressing

(55:52):
how concerned you are about thissituation.
And I was like, now I feel justdefeated about it and like,
right.
And so just noticing how caregets expressed as concern and
really moving the languaging tounderstand, oh, like there could
be words like, I value you, youknow, I want you to thrive.

(56:12):
That's very different, uh, than,oh my God.
Like, are you really, did you,that happened to you?
Just Exactly.
I love your facial expressionsby the

Stephanie Barron Hall (56:23):
I mean, this one in particular hits home
because I am married to a sixand you know, sexual three is
very much like, you know, I wantyou to think that I'm awesome
and a a six asking like anytimeI would be like, oh my gosh,
look at this new thing I'm gonnado, asking all these questions.
'cause what he's trying toconvey is like, I care.

(56:45):
I'm afraid how devastated you'regonna be if this fails.
So I wanna make sure that itdoesn't, right.
That's what he's trying toconvey.
And then I am over here like, soyou think I can't do it?
Right.
And not knowing he was a six fora long time.
Then knowing that, having thatinformation, that's why, you

(57:06):
know, I think the Enneagram canbe so helpful because it's like,
oh, I see what's happening.
Like, you know, and so I cantake, take that step back and be
like, oh, I see what you'redoing now.
Right.
But before I was like, oh mygosh, this is awful.

Nhien Vuong (57:22):
right, right.
100%.
So, um, one example I have as aminister is whenever I had a new
idea, there was a six.
That like, oh, now I realize,oh, if you are poking at it,
it's because you want it to workand you're poking at it to see
if it will stand.

(57:43):
Like, so you're trying to buyin.
I did not know that in thebeginning.
I was like, ouch.
Burst the bubble.
Right?
Like burst the bubble.
And, but, but when the sixthknows this is happening, just
like with the one energy aboutcondemning, you know, versus
encouraging.
It's like, okay, maybe you wannalead with something encouraging.

(58:03):
Like that's an exciting idea.

Stephanie Barron Hall (58:06):
sure.

Nhien Vuong (58:06):
right?
Like, and then you might add afew things about, Hmm.
In order for your idea to go,well, have you considered these
potential pitfalls?
You know?

Stephanie Barron Hall (58:16):
it turns out we haven't, so we need that.

Nhien Vuong (58:19):
So, so that's very cool.
Yeah.
So, all right, we have threemore, Oh my goodness.
For the seven, and maybe this isnot exactly about languaging,
but like an the way they connectwith people, it's like sampling,
moving from sampling to savoringand of course that kind of has

(58:39):
this food analogy to it, butlike sampling right?
This, a little bit of this, alittle bit of that, and it's
jumping.
It's jumping.
You know, even in conversationsit's like, I know sevens.
Who, who interrupt their ownsentences constantly.
Like they were like, oh, andthey've explained to me, oh n my
mind, I was already onto anotheridea.
So, so like I got bored.

(59:00):
The one I started, I'm like,hard to connect with you, you
know?
And then savoring, it's like,can we be with this one for now?
Let's enjoy this while it'shere.
What a great, even if it's anidea, like it's something you're
sharing, why not here?
Why not now?
And that that atmosphere of likebeing with it in the way that

(59:22):
savoring just has time in it,right?
It's a sense of time.
And of course seven's love itbecause it's like a pleasure
thing.
So it's like we're movingtowards something you want, you
didn't know that the way youwere doing it before.
You never land on like whatyou're wanting to do, which is
like be satisfied, right?
Yeah.
So then for eight, the eightmoves from blunt to.

(59:46):
Discerning, oh, I could talk at,at length about this because how
many eights are like, I'm justbeing honest, you know, like, I
was like, unskillfully.
So in a way that sabotages thevery thing you're seeking.
Right?
And, and it is, there's theguise when we talk about the
bluntness of eights very similarto, well, I'm an eight so I, I

(01:00:08):
can do that, you know, kind ofenergy and not realizing that.
You can still be completelyhonest, but has some wisdom and
discernment in the execution,right?
Of how you communicatesomething.
It's more subtle.
And subtlety is something thatis helpful for a right, like,

(01:00:31):
'cause in, in subtlety there'sslowing down, there's, there's a
nuance.
I, I like to think of it asthis, like, almost like why do
eights need a push to feelsomething?
You think about like a scab thatis like, it's scabbed over the
skin thick, so you almost likeyou need more in order to even
feel like it's that idea, right?

(01:00:52):
So it's like somehow bypracticing these things that are
related to subtlety, then eightsdon't need to push against
something all the time to justfeel a little bit of something,
you know?
And so bluntness to thatdiscernment,

Stephanie Barron Hall (01:01:08):
I've seen this so much in eights who've
really done their work where youreally get that sense where they
don't have that same, I mean,they're still very much eights,
but they have like thatdiscernment of like, not saying
everything that comes to mind.
Um, and you know, I, I actuallylike that about eights, that

(01:01:29):
they say everything that comesto mind.
Um, but I can appreciate thediscernment in, in my eight
friends too, who've done a lotof their own inner work and have
more of that subtlety.
Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong (01:01:39):
Yes.
I mean, I love the, you know,what you see is what you get
aspect of eights for sure.
And I do think some of thatbluster though, they were like,
yeah, this is it.
I was like, it actually isn't.
Authentic because it hidessomething behind it as well.
So that gentle discernment alsohelps expose some under this

(01:02:01):
layer beneath that is perhapsmore tender.
Right.
And, and adorable, you know, to,uh, in my view, and oh, by the
way, I use that word and, and itwas like my dear friend who's
one of the healthiest eights Iknow, she's like, I don't love
that word yet.
Like, adorable.
I mean, you know, I was like, Iknow, but you know, but you are

(01:02:23):
so, so it's, it's cute.
And then finally, um, for thenine, uh, toning it down, that
doesn't really need explanation,does it?
For the nine versus speaking up.
So we know that ninesself-censor and they kind of
want everyone to tone it downtoo.

(01:02:43):
But there's this energy of like.
Repressing and the nines don'teven realize they're doing it to
themselves too.
So there's a self-censorship I'mtalking about of like your life
force, right?
Of just like to keep the peaceand then instead opening to
risk, uh, confrontation in orderto have authentic connection,

(01:03:05):
right?
Because it's like if youdisappear the, the person
doesn't leave, but you are notreally in authentic relationship
with them, right?
You've disappeared.
And so this actually enablesauthentic relating if you're
able to like speak up and shareyour truth, especially when it's
different, you know?
I mean, it could be as basic aseverybody, the whole group, five

(01:03:28):
people wanna go to thisrestaurant and on Friday night
you're like, actually, like, Idon't wanna go to that
restaurant.
You know, to like be bold enoughto assert a minority view in a
situation in particular fornines, right?

Stephanie Barron Hall (01:03:44):
and I think that's so helpful to call
out because I do think sometimesnines assume that the more
agreeable I am, the more peoplewill like me and get along with
me, and it's just not true.
I think I'm somebody who.
I have a hard time with that andprobably because I struggle with

(01:04:04):
it myself, you know, and I, andI have, um, with all of the
shape shifting that, that threesdo.
And so I am like, can I trustyou that you're being truthful?
You know?
Um, and they're notintentionally trying to falsify
anything.
but every time I do like acorporate workshop, we have this

(01:04:25):
conversation about directcommunication.
And most people say they like itwhen people are direct.
Now we all have differentdefinitions of what that
actually means.
but I think it can be surprisingsometimes because nines think,
oh, if I'm more friendly thenpeople will like me more.
And that's just not always thecase.

(01:04:47):
Um, and like I think people,they might be pleasantly
surprised at how much peoplewill really love their

Nhien Vuong (01:04:53):
Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall (01:04:54):
speaking up.

Nhien Vuong (01:04:55):
Yes.
And I wanna tie this back towhat we talked about earlier
with respect to consciouscommunity, to, especially when
people know that you're a nineand you're speaking up and
you're practicing and it's, youknow, adorable.
Just, you know, but, but that,that sometimes, you know.
These things of like the, theway of not speaking, it was

(01:05:18):
reinforced in the family oforigin.
So having a community around youthat's actually encouraging you
to speak up, right?
Encouraging you to like breakfree of that mold and not having
those negative ramifications, itbegins that healing process,
right?
Just like in our communitieswhen like twos learn to say no,
we're like celebrating that.
We know that's different fromeight saying no.

(01:05:40):
Right?
Like, which happens all the timeto me.
Like, you know, but like, sojust being aware of how
intentional community,especially Enneagram, inform
community, can make all thedifference.
And like having the space heldfor you to break out of your
particular Enneagram box, right?
Trying on these new behaviors,if you will, and skills.

Stephanie Barron Hall (01:06:00):
Yeah.
Just that safe space, I think topractice is so important.
Um, because every relationshipis not gonna feel safe to do

Nhien Vuong (01:06:10):
Right, exactly.
Exactly.
And so yeah, that's, so Ibrought that up because for some
people they might be like, well,again, I tried that, you know,
with my family and I'm like, oh,with your family, this is where
it all began.

Stephanie Barron Hall (01:06:22):
That's expert level.
We need to start a beginnerlevel.

Nhien Vuong (01:06:24):
start with a safer communities and then we start to
build the muscle and then wecome home to our family for
Christmas 10 years later, like,and then we might be able to
like do that assertion, right?
And so, yeah,

Stephanie Barron Hall (01:06:38):
just takes time.

Nhien Vuong (01:06:40):
yeah,

Stephanie Barron Hall (01:06:41):
Yeah.
Well, there are so many othergood tidbits that I wish that,
you know, like I said at thetop, I, I wish that we could
break them all down because youhave these great things about
like forgiving others andtransforming our types and, and
so many more pieces that I thinkare really helpful.
but alas, we cannot cover theentire book.

(01:07:03):
so I would love if you couldshare how people can connect
with you coming up, and wherethey can find you online and
where they can get your book.

Nhien Vuong (01:07:12):
yes.
So, evolving enneagram.com iswhere you can find me and pretty
much you could find everythingthere.
Like the book, there's a,there's a whole page devoted to
the book, and it was veryimportant to me to put links to
like indie books, sellers, youknow, as well as the major ones.
So it's like you can just findit all in one place there.

(01:07:33):
And.
September 12th through the 14th,I am actually launching my very
first.
Certification training program.
So that's module one of what'sgonna be a five module training
contemplative Enneagrampractitioner training and

(01:07:53):
certification programs.
So people have asked me foryears, they're like, oh, which
uh, training program should Iuse?
I wish you had one.
And I just wasn't ready.
And I think this year I feelready.
And I think doing a trainingrecently for people to
facilitate my book, it was evenmore exciting.
It felt like, oh my gosh,there's something big happening

(01:08:15):
here in terms of thecontemplative Enneagram.
And, and, and I wanna go back toyou Steph, like that I feel
particularly touched knowingfrom our first conversation
together, that likespirituality.
That, that you've got, you know,there's, there's pain around
that.
And you being even open to thisbook, I really, I felt like you

(01:08:35):
were exactly the person, like Iwanted to reach, you know, to
say like, there's spaciousness,there's a space for spirituality
that is rooted in a sense ofcuriosity and wonder, and not
about dogma, but about like youand your like real direct
connection that, you know, andtrusting that, that knowing.

(01:08:55):
So, so yeah, this is, this isthis interspiritual.
Contemplative Enneagram movementthat I feel that evolving
Enneagram is a hub for.
And I'm excited to launch thistraining to really allow more p
practitioners in the world tobring it forth, even whether

(01:09:17):
it's like a therapist, you inthe work world, supporting your
people differently with thisholding of space of like, oh,
maybe we don't always have tohave a growth mindset.
You know, what changes andtransforms will we just hold
being this in that kind ofspace?
So, evolving enneagram.com, thetraining and, and yeah.

(01:09:39):
My book could be found prettymuch in from any bookseller, and
it's in like every format too,like ebook and the like,

Stephanie Barron Hall (01:09:46):
Perfect.
Um, and I do wanna highlight aswell, something that I have
discovered in marketing my bookis that, um, we, I, I think as a
collective, have an assumptionthat if I go to an indie book
seller, it's gonna be twice theprice of Amazon.
And I have actually found that alot of the time, you know, a lot

(01:10:06):
of these sellers use somethinglike bookshop.org to operate the
backend of their online sales.
So you're still supporting anindependent bookseller, but they
do have competitive pricing withAmazon.
so just another, you know, plugto say, you know, that's where
we can shop for these, theseawesome books that are all
coming out right now.

Nhien Vuong (01:10:24):
I love that.
Thank you.

Stephanie Barron Hall (01:10:25):
Thanks so much for being here.
I'll link everything in the shownotes and.
I I really hope that everyonelistening will check out your
book if they haven't already,because it's, it's really great
and I hope that we can all learna little something from it.

Nhien Vuong (01:10:39):
Aw, amazing.
Thank you.

Steph Barron Hall (01:10:44):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
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and review.
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(01:11:05):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
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listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
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Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
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The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
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(01:11:25):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
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