June 24, 2025 • 53 mins
On this week’s episode of Enneagram in Real Life, Stephanie Barron Hall interviews Emily Kasriel, author of "Deep Listening: Transform Your Relationships with Family, Friends, and Foes." Kasriel, a former BBC journalist, introduces the concept of deep listening as a more authentic and transformative approach than traditional active listening. She outlines an 8-step framework that emphasizes self-awareness, creating a safe space, being present, and practicing the embodiment of curiosity and empathy. This episode highlights how deep listening empowers individuals to feel truly heard, reduces defensiveness, and promotes self-discovery and growth for both the speaker and the listener.
Emily's book is out now! Deep Listening: Transform Your Relationships with Family, Friends, and Foes: You can grab a copy here.
Find the full show notes here: http://ninetypes.co/blog/the-transformative-art-of-deep-listening-with-emily-kasriel
🔗 Connect with Emily!
💻 https://www.emilykasriel.com/
📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ekasriel
💻 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilykasriel/
🔗 Connect with Steph!
📷 Instagram: @ninetypesco
🎥Youtube: @stephbarronhall
Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emily Kasriel (00:00):
listen to yourself first.
(00:01):
Because unless we do so, when welisten to someone else, we are
actually not listening to them.
We are listening to our ownstuff.
'cause we all have like a familyof shadows.
and we project our stuff.
Onto speakers, and we aren'treacting to them.
We are reacting to our ownshadows.
So taking the time, especiallybefore an important and or
(00:23):
difficult conversation can betransformational, not only with
our own shadows, but also to beopen with what's our real
agenda.
Hello and welcome to Enneagramin Real Life, the podcast where
we explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
(00:44):
lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BaronHall, and I'm so excited to
share today's episode with you.
I'm interviewing Emily, castReal, Who has had a
distinguished career at the BBCfor over two decades, including
roles as an award-winningjournalist, editor, and media
executive.
She developed the deep listeningapproach as a senior visiting
(01:05):
research fellow At King'sCollege Policy Institute in
London, drawing on herexperience as an accredited
executive coach and workplacemediator.
Previously, she's been avisiting fellow at.
Side business school at OxfordUniversity and a senior advisor
to the School Foundation, shealso holds a graduate degree
from the University of Oxfordand Syracuse University's
(01:26):
Maxwell School of Citizenshipand Public Affairs.
And.
As you might have gathered, thisepisode is not so much about the
Enneagram, but it's in our anyadjacent category, meaning that
the Enneagram can point us wherewe wanna look for our next, you
know, piece of inner work orwhere we want to grow, or
something we wanna develop, butthen we need real practical
(01:47):
guidance on what to do to buildthose skills.
And so today we're gonna betalking all about Emily's new
book called Deep Listening,transform Your Relationships
with Family, friends, and Foes.
And we talked all about how mostof us don't listen very well.
We've heard a lot about how tolisten actively or active
listening, that concept, butEmily actually talks about deep
(02:10):
listening and it's a bit of adifferent approach, but I think
it's so useful and I reallyappreciated hearing from her
about how she's kind of createdthis theory and this approach.
Um, and how actually NelsonMandela was an inspiration and
teacher on this journey, so Ihope you'll enjoy this episode
wherein we discuss all sorts ofthings like conflict mediation
(02:33):
and just developing a differentway of relating with people,
because as somebody who works sooften with teams in corporate
spaces, I see a lot of teamsthat don't listen very well, or
teammates that, that don't heareach other very well, um, and
have a hard time recognizingthat.
And I love Emily's approach andit's definitely something that
(02:53):
I'm thinking about movingforward and something that I
want other people to learn fromand take away.
Toward the end of ourconversation today, Emily did
walk me through her process andit's like a very distinct
framework that she uses, And soI thought it would be really
useful for all of us.
To actually take somethingpractical away from this.
So make sure you check out theblog post that accompanies this
(03:15):
podcast episode.
The link will be in the shownotes.
If you can't find it, you canalso go to nine types.co/blog
and you'll be able to find thestep-by-step framework that she
shared as part of this episode.
So make sure you check outEmily's information as well as
her book, um, which will all belinked in the show notes.
(03:37):
But again, her book is calledDeep Listening.
And without further ado, here'smy conversation with Emily.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:44):
Well, Emily, welcome to the podcast.
Emily Kasriel (03:46):
Uh, fantastic to be here and delighted to meet
you, Stephanie, and all yourlisteners
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:51):
Yeah, thanks so much.
Um, I'd love to start with anintroduction to your background
and how you came to the workthat you do now.
Emily Kasriel (04:00):
Sure.
So I've been at the BBC forquite some time, although doing
things on the side.
But what's great about workingfor a good big public
organization like the BBC is notonly do you get traveling around
the world.
Meeting fantasticallyinteresting people.
You also, I also trained andbecame an executive coach well
over a decade ago, and aworkplace mediator on the side.
(04:25):
I had quite an unusual, flexiblejob.
I was head of special projects,so this was all manner of
exciting things that I dreamedup.
I previously had been editor andproducer of Arts Religion, ideas
shows for the World, the US andfor African shows, for African
audience, and everything inbetween, but.
Through my kind of crazy job ashead of Special project, I
(04:46):
became really interested indoing more impactful work, and
that was actually partly frombeing coached myself before I
became a coach.
And so I was doing more gettingcolleagues across BBC News, and
that's in English and 40language, tv, radio, online,
digital, everything to do morestories about solutions, not
(05:07):
just problems.
And because I wanted to try and.
Get everyone to take up thisidea.
I decided we needed a big seasonand I've always been interested
in conflict and conflictresolution, so I called it
crossing divides.
So I got everybody to tellstories about how people could
come together across lines ofrace, class, religion, age, or
(05:29):
politics rather than theconflict narratives.
Us big media players so oftentell.
And in doing that, I had tobrief colleagues.
So like one day I had to brief40 local radio producers about
how to have these conversations.
Um, because they were each intheir own little local areas in
Dorsa tour, in, you know,Northumberland or in London
(05:52):
getting three local disputes andgetting people together across
these divides.
And I realized I needed to knowmore.
So I started doing research.
I did another course in inconflict mediation with a
solutions journalism network inMontana actually, and I started
researching.
(06:12):
First I had a gig at the LSC,the London School of Economics,
and then at Kings College inLondon.
And I talked a psychologists.
And I talked to, um, mediatorsand workplace, uh, psychologists
and a whole host of other peopleto find out what it would take
to get people who think verydifferently, to actually listen
(06:34):
to each other, because that'swhat we all face in our lives.
It's not just people who are ina serious dispute.
We often encounter.
You know, situations where ourlistening is performative.
We listeners sort of go throughthe motions.
We don't really listen tounderstand with curiosity.
So I ended up, friend of mine,connected me with her agent.
(06:56):
We sold the book to HarperCollins, US uk, a Deep
listening, transform Yourrelationship with family,
friends, and Foes.
I really like that and fo bit.
And this is being published inthe uk May 22nd, and in the US
May 20, um, June 24th this year.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:15):
Wow.
It's coming up so exciting.
Emily Kasriel (07:18):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speeding towards us.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:20):
Yes.
That's so cool to hear thatbackstory of how this came to be
because that is one thing that Ilove when I encounter new books
where it's like, you've beenusing this work for a long time
and practicing it, and so thenyou're able to write it down,
but you have examples of how itworks.
Emily Kasriel (07:36):
Yeah, it was really great.
And what was interesting, uh.
That.
For example, my son says, whatabout that story of you seeing
President Mandela listen?
And I said, oh yeah, that's agood idea.
And it fact forms theintroduction to my book because
when I first arrived as a youngreporter for the BBC in South
Africa, I was in Job bur, andthey said.
(07:56):
There's a big story brewing inPretoria, which is like one of
the key capitals in SouthAfrica, and loads of former
soldiers of the former A NCarmed wing, which was called in
contrary, where Seaway weregathering, demanding to see the
president.
They were angry about theirsubservice food, their
(08:16):
accommodation, and most of all,the humiliation are being bossed
around by these white officersin what was an integrated
defense force.
Who were used to be the enemy,and we all waited for Mandela to
arrive for hours and hours.
And we watched the sky to see ifhis helicopter would arrive, and
eventually it did.
(08:37):
So we went to this sort ofhastily erected podium to see
what he had to say, but hewasn't there.
And instead I found him walkingamong the soldiers and he said
hello to one guy, and the guysaid, oh, what's your name?
So tell me, where do you live?
Oh, I know Alexandra Township.
Which street?
(08:58):
Oh, I can picture that corner.
So now tell me why you are here.
And only after he spent wellover an hour talking and
listening to soldiers abouttheir grievances, did he get on
that podium and say, we haveheard you.
We are listening to yourgrievances.
We are going to address themnow.
You need discipline.
This is a new South Africa.
(09:18):
Go back to your barracks.
And they all went home.
And it was funny, when my sonreminded me of this story, I
have a nice picture of me andNelson Mandela in my bathroom at
home and it, uh.
It reminded me of it was abeautiful act of listening.
'cause often people who are inpower don't listen to us.
(09:38):
And all of us have been atsituations in work where we feel
powerless, for example, and wedon't feel heard.
And it can be sotransformational to our
wellbeing when we are heard.
And that's one of the reasons Ifeel so passionately about deep
listening because so many of us.
Aren't really heard.
You know, they're, so, when Iask people, when I do these
(09:59):
trainings and I've done, youknow, hundreds and hundreds,
thousands of people in over ahundred countries, and I say,
you know, can you think of atime when you were heard?
And often they can't.
And that feels so sad.
And that kind of increases the,you know, as I see it, an
epidemic of loneliness.
And what we can do when webecome great listeners is to
(10:21):
listen to the people around us.
As a starter to people at workand then also to to, you know,
to colleagues and to even tostrangers and even to people who
think differently to us.
And what can really liberate usto that possibility is
understanding that by listening,we do not signal agreement.
(10:42):
And to me that is reallycritical.
Stephanie Barron Hall (10:45):
That is so important because I think
that's something that I talkabout.
You know, when I.
Work with people is to say, justbecause somebody's silent or
because they're smiling andnodding, they're trying to
convey that they'reunderstanding, but that doesn't
mean that they agree.
So like, give them a moment toalso like, share their
perspective.
Um, and I'd love to hear morefrom you about how you contrast
(11:06):
this concept of deep listeningfrom active listening, which
we've all heard of, and wethink, oh yeah, that's the way
I'm supposed to be.
How does deep listening compareto that?
Emily Kasriel (11:14):
Actually, interestingly, The term active
listening was created by CarlRogers with a colleague who was
this fantastic Americanpsychologist, born at the very
beginning of the 20th century.
And he meant active listening.
Pretty, I've drawn very, veryclosely on my work on deep
listening from his.
Unfortunately, in the businesscontext, research is evidence
(11:37):
that active listening is veryinstrumental.
We listen long enough to kind offeel like we've done the
listening.
We say, yeah, I get you.
I understand.
It's performative.
It's not genuine.
We are not curious.
We don't listen to ourselvesfirst and figure out what have
we got that might get in the wayof some real thoughts by the
(11:59):
speaker.
And our own listening, and so itpeople sense it is not
authentic.
They feel that it is a kind of,okay tick box, done the
listening.
Now I'll tell you what youreally should be doing, and
therefore we leave feelingdismissed or used rather than
fully heard.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:16):
Yeah, the whole listening to under or
listening to respond versus
Emily Kasriel (12:20):
Yeah, exactly.
One person, a theologian calledJacqueline Bussey, coined it
that we reload our verbal gunwith ammunition ready to fire.
And I think that's what a lot ofus do far too often.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:34):
Yes, absolutely.
I would love to hear a littlebit more about.
You know, your process, what youlay out in the book.
Um, but before we go into that,I'm just wondering if you can
share a little bit more aboutthe context in which you see
this being appropriate, becauseI've heard you say not only
personal relationships andworkplace relationships, but a
more resilient society.
(12:55):
So tell me more about thatconcept.
Emily Kasriel (12:57):
Well, I think, I mean, we all know about
polarization.
In fact, when I was, you know,in the us um, I happened to be
there working with the AtlanticCouncil on Inauguration Day.
I thought a good opportunity,and I spent two days listening
to Trump supporters tell me whythey felt so passionately that
they were flying all over thecountry to QR in the.
(13:19):
Freezing cold to get into theCapital One arena, and it was
bloody cold, as we say in theuk.
And they knew from some of myquestions that perhaps I wasn't
the biggest Trump supporter.
And yet one of them said to meafter I heard her, she said, you
know.
What was really interestingabout you is that you were
really curious and I feltaccepted as a person and that
(13:43):
was so moving to me becausethat's what you want.
You want people to feel heard.
And what's interesting is thatthe research evidences both
other research and indeedresearch that I've conducted.
'cause I thought, I'm not doinga thousand people in a hundred
countries without getting thismeasured.
So I reached out to academics.
And the paper's just beenpublished in that well-known
bedtime read a Journal ofApplied Social Psychology, not,
(14:07):
but it was, you know, properlygone through peer review, which
showed that when people felttruly heard and were deeply
listened to, they.
Became more open and they alsobecame more willing to examine
their own attitudes.
And I think that's a real bigincentive for all of us, that
when we listen to people, peopleno longer feel on the defensive.
(14:28):
They can reduce what DanielleKahneman, uh said.
He said, systems one and Systemstwo, systems one's the automatic
sort of arguing way of thinking.
And systems two is the much moreconsidered.
Uh, approach and it allows us tokind of all reduce our stress
levels, both the speaker and thelistener, and therefore we can
be up in a place to really hearsomeone and then they don't feel
(14:51):
the need to insist on theirperspectives.
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:54):
Yeah.
Well, and I think that's soimportant and, um, you know, in
our, I I, all of our societieshave polarization, right?
But you know.
Myself, being an American, I, Ijust can't help but think about
the situation that we've beenin, especially over the last
several years and seeing so muchof this just contention and
really avoidance of thesetopics.
(15:16):
Um, and it's my friends who arereally, really committed to, I.
Asking questions and likeunderstanding and processing
through and saying like, yeah, Ihave a different perspective,
but like, I understand how yougot there.
Those are the people who arehaving the best conversations
and who could actually helpinspire change, um, in
(15:37):
themselves and in others becausewe have to have those
conversations.
Emily Kasriel (15:42):
that's such a beautiful point.
And what's exciting is once westart doing so, it often feels
very risky.
But in fact, Nick Epley at theUniversity of Chicago did
research that when we talk tostrangers, we.
Often fear it will be weird anduncomfortable.
And actually when we dare totalk to strangers at a bus stop,
you know, queuing up in thesupermarket, if you don't do an
(16:04):
online shop, you know, we stillhave opportunities to meet
people face to face in manyplaces.
It makes a huge difference toour own wellbeing because
ultimately we are socialanimals.
We want to connect.
And when you get a smile fromsomeone, it could be so
beautiful.
I mean, I was in the pharmacythe other day picking up, uh uh,
some drugs from my daughter.
And I spoke to this woman andshe was saying that, she said
(16:26):
something really like small,that was it.
I couldn't remember mydaughter's birthday.
And it was crazy'cause I gotconfused and I thought she was
like one rather than 23 orsomething.
Yeah.
And the woman just laughed andlaughed at me and I said, yeah,
it's funny, you know, we allmess up.
And she said to me.
She was sitting on a chair.
She said, yeah, you know, I'mworried about age.
(16:49):
And then she talked about thefact that she thought that her
grandmother, she might outliveher because she obviously had
some disease.
And then she started talkingabout it, and then she started
crying and she apologized forcrying, but she was obviously.
So need to be heard, and Ididn't judge her.
I didn't try and make herbetter, which is what we often
try and do and say, don't worrydear.
(17:10):
I'm sure it's okay.
Well, it's not okay.
Actually.
She feels the passing of yearswas really challenging for her,
but being able to accept her andallow her.
Uh, to share these feelings.
A total stranger prompted by asilly mistake I made.
We had this connection and Ileft feeling like I'd been able
(17:30):
to help somebody.
And we all know how much weenjoy helping all of us.
We want to feel needed and thatwe can do some good in the
world, and it can feel sopowerful and it can be in the
strangest unexpected situations.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:44):
What do you think?
Because to me it seems like theroot of like the fixing and the
avoidance is our, our owninability to be with those big
feelings.
How do you deal with that whenyou're working with people, you
know, throughout this timeperiod that you've been doing
this work?
Emily Kasriel (18:04):
I mean, I think it's a really good point.
I would say when people are intrauma, like many people have
said to me, can you deal, go toIsrael or go to Gaza and deal
with people there who've got,you know, in the midst of
conflict.
I think people in the midst ofconflict are not able to deeply
listen to others.
They feel, you know, theirsurvival instinct is.
Kicked in and they feel sotraumatized that they're in no
(18:27):
space to listen to others.
But I think people adjacent toconflict and America as yet, I
mean, obviously some people arefeeling a little traumatized by
the result of some of these, uh,legislation if you know, if you
are a deported immigrant and soforth.
But if you are not at the verysharp end of what's going on,
can you.
See it in yourself, and it mightwell be with somebody in your
(18:49):
family.
I mean, I know how, you know, Ihave a lot of American friends
and how many of them havefamilies who are divided have
old friends from their hometownin their home state who are, who
think differently to them, andwhat can they do to accept the
person?
Which doesn't mean acceptingtheir ideas necessarily, but it
may mean nuancing their ownideas when they truly are
(19:12):
curious.
And as you say, a good starterquestion is what in your life
has led you to believe what youdo?
'cause we all got backstories.
I told you a bit about mybackstory.
Um, or at least some of it inthe intro.
And when you hear the backstory,other people start to make more
sense.
Stephanie Barron Hall (19:29):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.
I, I just can, I'm also justimagining all of these like.
Challenging conversations thatwe have because they feel so
emotionally charged
Emily Kasriel (19:40):
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (19:41):
and working on my own ability to
allow people to have their bigfeelings, you know what I mean?
Um, or like, especially in thatmoment in the pharmacy where you
didn't fix that woman's, youknow, feelings.
You just let her have them.
Um, and that can be a gift andI, but I think it takes
something that we don't alwayspractice, which is the space
(20:03):
within ourselves.
Emily Kasriel (20:04):
Yeah, it's such a beautiful way of putting it
because we have to be centered,and as I talk you through my
process of deep listening, beingcentered, having that space as
you so beautifully put it inourselves to be able to accept
some either feelings of anger,feelings of fear, you know, I'm
actually about to start a coursein, or a introduction of a
(20:27):
course at the Tavistock Centerin London in Psychoanalytical
psychotherapy.
And as part of that.
You need to go and dovolunteering, and I'm signing up
and going for my introduction tosomething called the Listening
Space to see if it's right forme, which welcomes people who
are at the edge of taking theirown life to support them.
I don't know quite whether I'mgonna be strong enough to be
able to be with people who aresupremely vulnerable, but I'm
(20:52):
interested to see if I can,because to me that would be
hugely meaningful.
But we don't all have to dothat, you know?
But we can be with our kids andour parents and lots of people
around us and all of us gothrough difficult things.
All of us are traumatized atsome point.
A depressed at some point,challenged at some point.
I don't think any of us is likeSupreme kind of, well maybe you
(21:14):
are if you're a Supreme edmonth, but not many of us and
all of us are
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:17):
No.
Emily Kasriel (21:18):
challenges and have undergone lots of different
types of trauma.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, so I'm wondering if youcould share your eight step
method, um, and these actualsteps that you've put together
to help people reconnect throughthis authentic communication.
Emily Kasriel (21:33):
Sure.
So the first step of deeplistening is, um, create the
space.
And this means, first of all,psychological space of safety.
So if you are about to givefeedback or hear some difficult
conversation at work, andthere's an open plan office or a
glass office and people can seeyou.
Ain't gonna feel safe for thespeaker and what feels safe very
(21:54):
much varies.
So you need to put yourself inyour speaker's shoes to think
about what would be a safe placefor them.
I mean, some woman told me thatwhen her kid came home from
school and was just refused togo to school ever again, climbed
under her bed.
And the mother joined herdaughter under the bed because
that was her safe space.
Or another person told me theirkid, you know, wanted to sit in
(22:15):
his bedroom surrounded by histoys when they listened to the
kid.
That was their safe space.
So we all have different safespaces and think about what's
safe for your speaker, and thenit's thinking about.
Uh, you know, still step onethinking about, um, the acoustic
environment because if it's anoisy cafe where you've got the
sounds of other speakers whichdrown out your, your speaker or
(22:39):
you know, something, that's whyposh restaurants have flowing
curtains and nice comfortableseating.
But in your own home, you know,the wood is really good.
Bit of an echo, not too much anecho, um, that is important.
And then the lighting, sharpoverhead, blue white lights.
Not so good, much better.
Softer yellow with longerwavelengths, lights that bounce
(22:59):
off the wall, you can change thelighting'cause it makes us feel
more relaxed.
Um, I remember when I gave birthto my eldest and I went to the
public hospital here and theyhad this horrible blue white
strip lighting and the midwifeswitched that off and she put
on.
The nice sort of yellow orangeincubator, baby incubator, like
just for me.
(23:20):
So I could do the kind ofbirthing business.
I was in a water birth, I wasvery lucky.
Um, you know, and feel morerelaxed, you know, more like a
person, not a patient.
So it's getting thoseenvironments right and then
really a place even more sowhere the speaker can feel
cherished.
So I was in Japan spending timewith tea ceremony practitioners,
so they think very carefully,like if I'm handing you a cup of
(23:41):
tea, I will rotate my mug.
Exactly to have this, having tosay, Papa, it's my husband's.
But you know, the bit that willbe, make you feel more
cherished.
And they have 72 seasons andthey get a treat, which fits
that exact season.
And a fresh leaf, like from thebalcony to put on top of the
water to make, bring natureinside.
So that's a, you know, ways thatwe can inspire us or put on
(24:03):
your, your partner's favoritemusic track if you're gonna be
really listening to them andhelping them unwind.
That's step one.
So step two is listen toyourself first.
Because unless we do so, when welisten to someone else, we are
actually not listening to them.
We are listening to our ownstuff.
'cause we all have like a familyof shadows.
And when we.
(24:24):
You know, let's say we aredisproportionately fearful of
meeting the ENG boiling engineerwho's supposed to sort out our
central heating.
It's not just because we mighthave no heating for three months
and get freezing, it's becausehe might represent something in
our own psyche and we projectour stuff.
Onto speakers, and we aren'treacting to them.
(24:45):
We are reacting to our ownshadows.
So taking the time, especiallybefore an important and or
difficult conversation can betransformational, not only with
our own shadows, but also to beopen with what's our real
agenda.
Um, I was talking to a friendabout their, uh, younger friend,
about their, you know,conversation with their
boyfriend and saying, you know,what do you really want from
(25:07):
this?
You know what's, what's at stakehere?
What do you really, so at leastif you are clear in your own
mind about what's important tome, it might well be that the
relationship itself is moreimportant than the important
angry things that you think youhave to say.
So taking that time before thoseconversations is critical.
And part three is being present.
(25:29):
And you spoke so beautifullyabout having the space inside
us.
How can we cultivate that spaceinside us so that we can.
Convey a space for somebodyelse, not only to share their
stuff, but also to think newthoughts.
And that's what's so excitingabout deep listening, is that we
can provide the opportunity forpeople around us to create ideas
(25:52):
that they never even imagined.
That's what I know from being anexecutive coach, and it's so
exciting when you see people,you've got what you think is
your fab solution.
You provide the space for themsettled, open, even in like a
busy BBC meeting room.
And suddenly who, they'll gosilent on you.
They'll look up and they'll havenew thoughts that they never
(26:15):
before imagined.
And if you have an ongoingrelationship, as I did with my
coaching clients, you saw themtransform and that they, uh,
Carl Rogers spoke very movinglyabout the fact that we are all
in a process of becoming.
And that is so beautiful.
We are not fixed to the personwe were last year, last week, or
last night.
We can all change and deeplistening provides the other
(26:36):
person the space to think newthoughts, to become the best
person they could possibly be,and to overcome challenges in
ways we would've neveranticipated.
So, you know, I've been onvarious silent retreats as part
of my meditation practices.
I love the Waking Up app.
Uh, there's lots of reallygreat, um, meditations.
And speakers to inspire you indifferent ways.
(26:59):
There's so many people.
Tara Brack is fantastic.
I also interviewed for myprogram La Kelly and John Kaba
Zinn, who's also endorsed mybook, um, who's a big
mindfulness compan, who I'veworked with at the BBC and um,
and been inspired and gone tohis meditation.
So there's a lot of differentways, and I was inspired when I
was heard by First NationCanadians and they just sat
(27:20):
there.
I was talking about some of myown family trauma.
And I, they didn't try andconnect their trauma with mine.
They just.
Allowed me and accepted me.
And that on some measure allowedme to accept myself and it was
so beautiful.
So I'm very inspired when I justthink of the way that they see
us and the earth and the windand the trees and ancestors and
(27:44):
future progeny as all beingcollected together.
And it's in that space that theyprovide the space for somebody
to be heard.
And that's really beautiful andinspiring for me.
So step four is the qualitiesyou project to your speaker.
And I always say I start with agateway of curiosity.
'cause if you could be trulycurious about them, they can
(28:06):
then tell you something.
Like your neighbor can say, ohyeah, my daughter, she's
training to be a teacher.
Suddenly you've got a footholdinto their world because they've
shared something with you andyou can then become more
empathetic.
Really what a beautiful thing tobe doing.
Tell me about that.
You know, tell me more.
Always good say, tell me more.
Not tell me.
Tell me what else?
'cause you go deeper rather thanjust stay at surface.
(28:28):
So curiosity is great.
And from that comes empathy.
Also respect.
And that again is respect forthe person rather than for any
specific thing that they havedone or deed or passing sin that
they've committed.
You are respecting them fortheir humanity, which we all
share.
You know, and then, um, theother, the last part of the, of
(28:51):
the qualities that we project onour speaker is being
non-judgmental.
It's really, I wouldn't even saynon-judgmental.
We are, have evolved to bejudgmental.
We need to tell friend or fo,you know, friend from foe or we
wouldn't be safe.
We need to know the berries fromthe tigers.
But, and poison berries fromhealthy berries.
So we need to make judgments andwe do that.
(29:11):
Otherwise, I wouldn't know if Isat on my seat, it wasn't made
of jelly and I would fallstraight through, but we can
become aware of the judgments wemake and especially important.
For example, if you'reinterviewing somebody, you know,
are you making judgments the waythey look, the way they sound,
what does it reflect about you,where they come from and how can
we self-correct when we becomeaware we don't have to share
(29:33):
them?
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:34):
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kasriel (29:34):
So step five is the gaze, and that's what makes
it so hard to talk online.
'cause now I'm looking at you bylooking straight at the camera,
but I can't see your face oryour smile, so I don't feel so
connected.
They are now evolving cameras tosit in the middle of screens,
which is useful.
So the gaze is important andthere's so much research.
I mean, if you're listening to aFirst Nation elder, perhaps from
(29:57):
that community, don't look atthem in the eye.
There's certain communitieswhere it's not acceptable.
the gaze is such a critical wayin the way we connect, but it's
not an angry fuko like gaze,which makes people feel insecure
and worried and upset.
It's much more a warm, embracinggaze that we talked about, using
those qualities of curiosity,respect, empathy, and without
(30:19):
judgment.
And what happens?
You've got this gaze window andboth, both our eyes connect
together.
That's the case window And thenyou as a speaker, you might
wander off, but because my eyesare on you, you'll feel safer
and go on a more interestingjourney and then you'll return
and will connect again.
And if you find I'm not there,you, the research shows that you
(30:40):
will repeat yourself or get lostin thought because I'm not
connected to you.
So the gates is so important inthat step five.
I also look at other ways wecan, um.
Use our body language and thelook at the body language of the
speaker to understand more aboutwhat they're saying and feeling
and what they're not saying.
So we know about, you know, if Isit looking crossed arms with
(31:02):
you, it'd be defensive ratherthan open.
And you can see my hands.
I mean, most people know aboutsimple body language and about
slightly leaning in, in order toappear interested like you
matter.
Um, and that's important.
You wanna do, you can do nodsbut keep them kind of gentle,
not too vigorous'cause it's okayfed up.
I've had enough now time's up,you know, so it's getting that
(31:23):
right and making it authenticfor you.
When it comes to reading yourspeaker, there was a piece of
research in, uh, in 19.
69, I think, I can't remember,1970, which said that nonverbal,
that verbal communication wasnot so important.
What was much more important wasfacial expression.
This is not true at all.
This has been completelydisproved and said to be
(31:44):
nonsense, even by theresearcher, but is often quoted
in a lot of communicationresearch still all over online
by a researcher called Moravianin California.
So what the research seems toindicate is that, of course what
we say is super important wordsare important facial
expressions.
I might be really smiley, butthat's'cause I'm about to snag
(32:06):
the last donut on the plate.
Not because I'm really happy orI'm looking anxious, but it's
not because you've saidsomething awful.
It's because I'm wondering howthe hell am I gonna get home in
time for the game?
You know?
So facial expressions.
People can be happy or sad evenif you get that right for
different reasons.
That's tough.
Gestures not very helpful unlessyou're speaking a foreign
(32:27):
language or you say, oh, thatriver was that high, and you
point, that can be great.
But what is important is tone ofvoice.
And that's why sometimes on avoice only call, we find it
easier to understand what theperson is saying and feeling and
thinking rather than in aface-to-face call.
'cause we get, um, obscured bypeople's faces and that even
(32:47):
though we feel connected, whichis great, we, I.
Sometimes know less about whatthey're really feeling.
So step six is hold the silencebecause silence is so exciting.
So many people fear silence.
And in the book, which I alsoillustrate by the way, which is
really fun'cause I like drawing,and I thought if I'm doing a
(33:08):
book, I'm going to illustrateit.
Um, so I've got a picture ofnine types of silence'cause
there's a beautiful poem by PaulGoodman.
Can I just read it about thenine types of silence?
It's very beautiful.
He says There is the dumbsilence of slumber or apathy,
the sober silence that goes witha solemn animal face.
(33:30):
The Fertile Silence of Awarenesspasturing the soul when new
thoughts emerge.
The alive silence of alertperception ready to say this.
This, the musical silence thataccompanies absorbed activity.
The silence of listening toanother speak, catching the
(33:52):
drift, and helping him be clear.
The noisy silence of resentmentand self-recrimination, loud and
sub vocal speech, but su to sayit.
Baffled Silence.
The silence of peaceful accordwith other persons, or communion
with the cosmos.
And I think that gives us asense of the different types of
(34:14):
silence.
And when people fear silence,they often fear a, a kind of
exploitative, intimidatingsilence rather than an
empowering.
Silence of space with all thequalities that we talked about
earlier.
And um, often I tell people, andI can make you the listeners a
suggestion, just try three tofive seconds of silence after
(34:36):
the person has finishedspeaking.
'cause you'll often find.
And you've gotta learn to becomfortable.
'cause it feels bloody awkwardat the beginning.
You'll often find that they'llthink new thoughts and it also
gives you the time to make senseof what they've said.
And of course, silence is theopposite of interrupting.
We're all so keen to interrupt.
I used to be such a badinterrupter.
(34:57):
I still am at times because wethink we're helping the other
person.
We are helping complete theirsentence.
We're helping them think ofsomething that was on the edge
of their thinking, but we.
Ah, can do it quicker and savetime.
And in fact, what we do is weare stealing from them their
time to think.
Stephanie Barron Hall (35:13):
Hmm.
Emily Kasriel (35:13):
So it's actually very damaging, interrupting, and
it's hugely arrogant because wethink, you know, by
interrupting, it's like what Ihave to say next is more
important than what you have tothink.
And knowing that and alsohearing people say things that I
would've never imagined when Igive them that space, really has
helped me in my journey to stopbeing such an interrupter and to
(35:34):
learn to be comfortable withsilence.
But I don't always, I should sayabout this whole deep listening
stuff, as my family will tellyou, I'm still very much a work
in progress.
So step seven is aboutreflecting back.
Now on your active listeningcourses, you pick up the last
thing the person has said.
You parrot back a few words, andthat's that.
This is the opposite of deeplistening, reflection.
(35:57):
In deep listening, you arereally trying to encapsulate the
very core of what the person hassaid.
What has not been said but isimportant to them and the
emotions.
'cause if you don't reflect backthe emotions, they will not feel
heard.
And this is quite hard to do.
Sometimes you can reflect backin silence.
(36:18):
Sometimes you can just pick outone critical word I.
And sometimes you might talkabout what is, um, harmonic,
what is the kind of metareflections?
What are they saying that leadsto the same conclusion or what's
discordant like in music?
They say, on one hand you talkabout your intense love for your
mother.
And on the other, I'm hearingyou say you are quite resentful.
(36:41):
Is that right?
And it's always offered with aspirit of humility because the
other person, um.
Can then, uh, you know, be freeto say, yeah, you know, you
haven't quite got it.
But they, by saying what it isnot, they helps them clarify in
their own mind and you tounderstand them more clearly.
(37:02):
So I think that's reallyexciting.
And then state step eight is thedeeper narrative.
It's really using your.
Third year to use a term coinedby psychoanalyst who is a pupil
of Sigmund Freud to your DoReich, and he called it your
third ear.
And I've done a picture of itwith a third ear painted in the
middle of the chest.
And I use like my subconsciousthat I trust to listen to your
(37:25):
subconscious and again, offer itwith humility.
Might not be right for everyoccasion.
Certainly in a professionalcontext, you've gotta be a
little wary, but it enables youto also.
You know, really tune into yourspeaker's values and their
deeper needs.
And I should just say there werea lot of ethical issues, which
I'd outline in the book arounddeep listening.
(37:46):
People often share more thanthey perhaps wanted to.
Again, in a work context, youneed to sometimes say to them,
wait a minute.
Are you sure you want tocontinue here?
You need to contract.
You need to be fair.
You need to keep itconfidential.
And sometimes you may hear morethan you are ready to bear.
And there you need to keepyourself spa safe.
(38:06):
And that's really important.
You, if you don't feel you cantake it, you need to have a
break or to refer the person tomore help.
Now, would you like us to do adeep listening demonstration?
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:17):
Sure.
That'd be great.
Emily Kasriel (38:18):
Yeah.
So if I ask you, Stephanie, Letme think.
Tell me about a time you felttruly heard, or if you can't
think of one a time when youwould've liked to have felt
really heard.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:34):
Okay, sure.
So, um, I can tell you bothactually.
I am pregnant, so I am expectingthis summer and, um, my family
history.
We have a long history of havinggigantic babies and my husband
(38:55):
was also quite a large.
Baby.
and so of course I have thisfear about shoulder dys, socia,
um, in particular.
And you know, so I'm likeresearching and looking up the
different things and my doctorhad mentioned it at one point,
so I'm just like worried.
And I was telling my husbandthat I was worried and he was
(39:16):
kind of like.
Trying to gauge, is this just athing that you're worried about
that everyone is, or is there aparticular reason that you're
worried?
And I really did not feel heard.
So the next
Emily Kasriel (39:30):
No, let's just stop there.
Let's just stop there for a sec.
So I'm hearing you say that youare pregnant and you are due to
have a baby and congratulationsand you have this family history
that there's a bit of you,there's a bit of proud of it, of
having these ginormous babies,but there's also a fear because
you know there's certainconditions which it leads to.
(39:52):
And this is real for you.
You are carrying this babypregnancy, you know, towards a
outcome which is all being well,a delivery of a healthy baby.
And it is.
Your husband also was a bigbaby, and it's important to you
from him that he really getsthis.
And when you talked about it tohim and he just put it into a
(40:16):
binary, is this it or is thismore important?
You felt dismissed.
Is that right?
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:24):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I felt like theinsinuation was, you're just
being a little silly.
You're just being anxious to beanxious.
No need for that.
Not that he said any of that.
That's just how I felt.
Yeah.
Emily Kasriel (40:43):
So it felt as if.
He didn't take your concernsseriously.
Is that, is that,
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:53):
Yeah.
Emily Kasriel (40:53):
and that's important to you because it's
real for you?
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:58):
Yeah.
It's real for me.
And also, um.
I like to feel prepared as muchas I can, and childbirth is one
of those things that you don'tget to prepare.
I mean, you prepare, but likeyou don't get to choose a lot.
Like it happens how it happens.
And, uh, I get a little bitanxious that, you know, we might
(41:21):
go into that situation and hemight not be prepared either.
Where I've said, I'm anxiousabout this thing, and he's never
thought of it.
So he's not prepared, you know?
Emily Kasriel (41:34):
And so it's not only an emotional thing, it's
also.
Kind of important to you becauseyou are working in childbirth,
which is an uncontrollableprocess.
You feel you and your husband asa partnership together need to
be, give the most knowledge andthe most, um, much as you can.
(41:57):
And it's not a insignificantworry, which is how you felt a
bit when you had thatconversation.
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:04):
Yeah.
And I also think it's, uh, asthe birthing parent, you're the
one who bears a lot of theweight of doing all the research
and finding all the things,planning and all that
Emily Kasriel (42:17):
So let's, let's just stop that kind of role play
How did you feel about thatconversation?
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:23):
Good.
Yeah.
Um, I think I feel heard andlistened to and I felt a little
bit like, sorry for throwingBrandon under the bus, um, but
also.
The next morning we had a very,he and I had a very similar
conversation, where I said, Ireally didn't feel heard.
And then he was like, oh, okay,let's try that again then.
(42:47):
and I think that feels reallyimportant to be able to revise
those conversations.
Emily Kasriel (42:53):
Yeah, if we are in a state and we have a good,
strong relationship and to beable to say not feeling hurt
because you know, on some levelwe all want somebody else to
understand us in all ouremotions with our whole self,
and it feels so good.
When they can do that.
And I thought, I've done anotherpicture in the book of somebody
(43:14):
being in somebody else's head inwith lots of different facial
expressions because we want toall be heard with our whole
selves, and that's why it's sopowerful and it's conduc.
So much to enhance relationshipswith couples, with children,
with parents, because it'sunderstanding and accepting our
complexity and contradictions.
(43:37):
And sometimes the fact that lifeisn't solvable.
There's no answer to you havinga big baby.
That's what you may well have,but you know, there's no magic
pill.
But you can be better prepared.
And it's almost more, not eventhat, it's you wanna be heard
because this is important to youright now.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:55):
And I do think that, that in my
experience, and I don't know ifthis has come up in your, your
research, but, um, there's apart of it where it diffuses a
lot of the pent up emotion,right?
Because, um, once you feelheard, then it, it doesn't feel
so big and scary anymore.
Emily Kasriel (44:13):
Yeah, exactly.
Because when we have all thosesometimes crazy thoughts in the
middle of the night and when, ifwe are lucky enough to have a
close partner to share them within the morning, they can really
help us, um, by giving them someperspective sometimes.
But even without sayinganything, just simply being
heard can be so powerful forwellbeing.
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I'm wondering if there islike one.
Little tool or one littleresource or, or something that
people can start to apply.
You know, you've given us, youknow, the, the eight action
steps and so much, so much of itis really just like changing
your own stance in a way, towardthe other person, right.
(44:57):
To be more curious andempathetic.
But what is one place that wecan start if we wanna start
being practicing deep listening?
Emily Kasriel (45:05):
I think it's watching ourself when we fall
into the listening traps, whenwe get caught into proving
somebody's wrong.
When we get caught in trying tosolve and fix, and then telling
ourself, reminding ourselves togo.
Back into being curious, youknow, what is it that's really
(45:26):
driving the other person.
So it allows us to get outtathat reactive mode and gives us
the opportunity and in order todo that, a breath, a simple
breath, like when you seeyourself getting all bent up and
angry, breathing in.
And breathing out and takingthat minute, even a few seconds
(45:47):
sometimes can help settleourselves to be open to what the
other person has to say, andthey will sense that too.
And suddenly all new thingsbetween the two of you are
possible and never felt possiblebefore.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:02):
I think that's such a gift that we can
give each other as well because,um, you know, I hear from a lot
of people who are like, I justdon't feel understood and I
think that people tell methey're understanding me and
they're not.
And I can tell, and I reallyappreciate this practice as one
that can help us understand moreand even understand ourselves
(46:23):
better because we can.
If we're slowing things down, wecan recognize like, oh, this is
triggering something inside me,and what, what's that about?
Let me think about that later,after I'm, after this
conversation.
But
Emily Kasriel (46:35):
E Exactly right.
It's, you say it so beautifullyand it, I detail that in my book
is that listening to ourselvesfirst, I mean, sometimes if we
get these shadows, we can takethem for a walk and we can say
out loud in nature or somewhereprivate in a room, what's really
going on?
Why are you feeling so angry?
And let that person have a bigshout, and you'll find all sorts
of amazing, interesting things.
(46:56):
And once it's out there, it'snot so toxic.
Stephanie Barron Hall (47:00):
Yeah.
Well if, if we're all out hereshouting the forest, I guess we
can blame you for it.
Emily Kasriel (47:06):
Yeah, I'm happy to take the blame.
I'm very happy to do that.
I'm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (47:10):
So where can people find your book?
Emily Kasriel (47:12):
Well, the book is being published by Harper
Collins, so you can get a copyof it on Amazon or in any
bookstore That's good aboutHarper Collins great
distribution network.
So that's very exciting.
And that is on the 24th of June.
But if you pre-order, that'seven better.
'cause apparently pre-ordersare.
Super important, and I reallygenuinely want more people to
(47:33):
read the book because I'mmotivated to try and do
something to combat the twincrises of polarization and
loneliness.
So if you pre-order and thatexcites the bookstores and they
think it's more popular and getmore people to read it, then we
can do something to make a dentin these real crises that we
have in our, in our society.
Um, and if you wanna know moreabout me, you can find out more
(47:54):
about me on my website, emilykasriel.com.
That's Emily E-M-I-L-Y-K-A-S forsierra RIE l.com.
Or uh, or follow me on LinkedIn.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:09):
Perfect.
Um, okay.
I have my final two questionsthat I ask everyone.
First one is, tell me about abook that has helped you
refreshed you or shaped you inthe last year.
Emily Kasriel (48:19):
So I have just not quite finished this book
that my son recommended me, andit's called Orbital by Samantha
Harvey.
And it's won, uh, various prizesand it's the most beautiful but
very short book.
About a spacecraft, about sixindividuals who spend time on
this spacecraft.
And the woman I don't think'sever been, hasn't been on a
(48:40):
spacecraft, but they look at theearth with such love and
preciousness, and we know thatif you see somebody.
Loving another thing or aperson, you also are more likely
to feel love for that thing.
And they have such emotivefeelings'cause they have to cope
with like loads of sunsets andsunrises every day.
(49:02):
And they scoot over bits ofAlaska or Europe or bits of the
world or see a typhoondevastating bits of the
Philippines, but from above.
And they're in this weird littlemetallic capsule and yet they
are so connected.
To the wonder of the Earth, andit's really beautiful and it's
really short and it's uplifting.
I recommend it highly.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:24):
That sounds fantastic.
I love it.
I'll definitely have to checkthat one out.
Um, okay.
Final question.
Tell me a piece of advice thathas really stuck with you.
Emily Kasriel (49:34):
You don't have to get it right.
You know, sometimes we put suchpressure on ourselves to be like
a perfect listener, and we needto be curious and nonjudgmental
and compassionate to ourself andallow us to be in a journey of
becoming rather than think thatwe've gotta get it all right at
first or all the time.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:56):
Yeah, I think that's so important too.
And um.
You know, you mentioned earlierthat you don't always get it
right.
You know, ask your kids orwhatever.
And I think that is that oldadage of we write the books that
we are meant to read in a sense.
And I, I love that example of,of being here and practicing it
and also knowing like there isspace to get it wrong.
(50:19):
Maybe revise that conversationlater.
Um, whatever you need to do.
Emily Kasriel (50:23):
Yeah.
That's so beautiful.
Thank you so much.
I've so enjoyed thisconversation, Stephanie.
It's been really beautiful.
Thank you.
Stephanie Barron Hall (50:30):
Thanks so much for being here.
Steph Barron Hall (50:31):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway
(50:52):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(51:13):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
listen to yourself first.
(00:01):
Because unless we do so, when welisten to someone else, we are
actually not listening to them.
We are listening to our ownstuff.
'cause we all have like a familyof shadows.
and we project our stuff.
Onto speakers, and we aren'treacting to them.
We are reacting to our ownshadows.
So taking the time, especiallybefore an important and or
(00:23):
difficult conversation can betransformational, not only with
our own shadows, but also to beopen with what's our real
agenda.
Hello and welcome to Enneagramin Real Life, the podcast where
we explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
(00:44):
lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BaronHall, and I'm so excited to
share today's episode with you.
I'm interviewing Emily, castReal, Who has had a
distinguished career at the BBCfor over two decades, including
roles as an award-winningjournalist, editor, and media
executive.
She developed the deep listeningapproach as a senior visiting
(01:05):
research fellow At King'sCollege Policy Institute in
London, drawing on herexperience as an accredited
executive coach and workplacemediator.
Previously, she's been avisiting fellow at.
Side business school at OxfordUniversity and a senior advisor
to the School Foundation, shealso holds a graduate degree
from the University of Oxfordand Syracuse University's
(01:26):
Maxwell School of Citizenshipand Public Affairs.
And.
As you might have gathered, thisepisode is not so much about the
Enneagram, but it's in our anyadjacent category, meaning that
the Enneagram can point us wherewe wanna look for our next, you
know, piece of inner work orwhere we want to grow, or
something we wanna develop, butthen we need real practical
(01:47):
guidance on what to do to buildthose skills.
And so today we're gonna betalking all about Emily's new
book called Deep Listening,transform Your Relationships
with Family, friends, and Foes.
And we talked all about how mostof us don't listen very well.
We've heard a lot about how tolisten actively or active
listening, that concept, butEmily actually talks about deep
(02:10):
listening and it's a bit of adifferent approach, but I think
it's so useful and I reallyappreciated hearing from her
about how she's kind of createdthis theory and this approach.
Um, and how actually NelsonMandela was an inspiration and
teacher on this journey, so Ihope you'll enjoy this episode
wherein we discuss all sorts ofthings like conflict mediation
(02:33):
and just developing a differentway of relating with people,
because as somebody who works sooften with teams in corporate
spaces, I see a lot of teamsthat don't listen very well, or
teammates that, that don't heareach other very well, um, and
have a hard time recognizingthat.
And I love Emily's approach andit's definitely something that
(02:53):
I'm thinking about movingforward and something that I
want other people to learn fromand take away.
Toward the end of ourconversation today, Emily did
walk me through her process andit's like a very distinct
framework that she uses, And soI thought it would be really
useful for all of us.
To actually take somethingpractical away from this.
So make sure you check out theblog post that accompanies this
(03:15):
podcast episode.
The link will be in the shownotes.
If you can't find it, you canalso go to nine types.co/blog
and you'll be able to find thestep-by-step framework that she
shared as part of this episode.
So make sure you check outEmily's information as well as
her book, um, which will all belinked in the show notes.
(03:37):
But again, her book is calledDeep Listening.
And without further ado, here'smy conversation with Emily.
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:44):
Well, Emily, welcome to the podcast.
Emily Kasriel (03:46):
Uh, fantastic to be here and delighted to meet
you, Stephanie, and all yourlisteners
Stephanie Barron Hall (03:51):
Yeah, thanks so much.
Um, I'd love to start with anintroduction to your background
and how you came to the workthat you do now.
Emily Kasriel (04:00):
Sure.
So I've been at the BBC forquite some time, although doing
things on the side.
But what's great about workingfor a good big public
organization like the BBC is notonly do you get traveling around
the world.
Meeting fantasticallyinteresting people.
You also, I also trained andbecame an executive coach well
over a decade ago, and aworkplace mediator on the side.
(04:25):
I had quite an unusual, flexiblejob.
I was head of special projects,so this was all manner of
exciting things that I dreamedup.
I previously had been editor andproducer of Arts Religion, ideas
shows for the World, the US andfor African shows, for African
audience, and everything inbetween, but.
Through my kind of crazy job ashead of Special project, I
(04:46):
became really interested indoing more impactful work, and
that was actually partly frombeing coached myself before I
became a coach.
And so I was doing more gettingcolleagues across BBC News, and
that's in English and 40language, tv, radio, online,
digital, everything to do morestories about solutions, not
(05:07):
just problems.
And because I wanted to try and.
Get everyone to take up thisidea.
I decided we needed a big seasonand I've always been interested
in conflict and conflictresolution, so I called it
crossing divides.
So I got everybody to tellstories about how people could
come together across lines ofrace, class, religion, age, or
(05:29):
politics rather than theconflict narratives.
Us big media players so oftentell.
And in doing that, I had tobrief colleagues.
So like one day I had to brief40 local radio producers about
how to have these conversations.
Um, because they were each intheir own little local areas in
Dorsa tour, in, you know,Northumberland or in London
(05:52):
getting three local disputes andgetting people together across
these divides.
And I realized I needed to knowmore.
So I started doing research.
I did another course in inconflict mediation with a
solutions journalism network inMontana actually, and I started
researching.
(06:12):
First I had a gig at the LSC,the London School of Economics,
and then at Kings College inLondon.
And I talked a psychologists.
And I talked to, um, mediatorsand workplace, uh, psychologists
and a whole host of other peopleto find out what it would take
to get people who think verydifferently, to actually listen
(06:34):
to each other, because that'swhat we all face in our lives.
It's not just people who are ina serious dispute.
We often encounter.
You know, situations where ourlistening is performative.
We listeners sort of go throughthe motions.
We don't really listen tounderstand with curiosity.
So I ended up, friend of mine,connected me with her agent.
(06:56):
We sold the book to HarperCollins, US uk, a Deep
listening, transform Yourrelationship with family,
friends, and Foes.
I really like that and fo bit.
And this is being published inthe uk May 22nd, and in the US
May 20, um, June 24th this year.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:15):
Wow.
It's coming up so exciting.
Emily Kasriel (07:18):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speeding towards us.
Stephanie Barron Hall (07:20):
Yes.
That's so cool to hear thatbackstory of how this came to be
because that is one thing that Ilove when I encounter new books
where it's like, you've beenusing this work for a long time
and practicing it, and so thenyou're able to write it down,
but you have examples of how itworks.
Emily Kasriel (07:36):
Yeah, it was really great.
And what was interesting, uh.
That.
For example, my son says, whatabout that story of you seeing
President Mandela listen?
And I said, oh yeah, that's agood idea.
And it fact forms theintroduction to my book because
when I first arrived as a youngreporter for the BBC in South
Africa, I was in Job bur, andthey said.
(07:56):
There's a big story brewing inPretoria, which is like one of
the key capitals in SouthAfrica, and loads of former
soldiers of the former A NCarmed wing, which was called in
contrary, where Seaway weregathering, demanding to see the
president.
They were angry about theirsubservice food, their
(08:16):
accommodation, and most of all,the humiliation are being bossed
around by these white officersin what was an integrated
defense force.
Who were used to be the enemy,and we all waited for Mandela to
arrive for hours and hours.
And we watched the sky to see ifhis helicopter would arrive, and
eventually it did.
(08:37):
So we went to this sort ofhastily erected podium to see
what he had to say, but hewasn't there.
And instead I found him walkingamong the soldiers and he said
hello to one guy, and the guysaid, oh, what's your name?
So tell me, where do you live?
Oh, I know Alexandra Township.
Which street?
(08:58):
Oh, I can picture that corner.
So now tell me why you are here.
And only after he spent wellover an hour talking and
listening to soldiers abouttheir grievances, did he get on
that podium and say, we haveheard you.
We are listening to yourgrievances.
We are going to address themnow.
You need discipline.
This is a new South Africa.
(09:18):
Go back to your barracks.
And they all went home.
And it was funny, when my sonreminded me of this story, I
have a nice picture of me andNelson Mandela in my bathroom at
home and it, uh.
It reminded me of it was abeautiful act of listening.
'cause often people who are inpower don't listen to us.
(09:38):
And all of us have been atsituations in work where we feel
powerless, for example, and wedon't feel heard.
And it can be sotransformational to our
wellbeing when we are heard.
And that's one of the reasons Ifeel so passionately about deep
listening because so many of us.
Aren't really heard.
You know, they're, so, when Iask people, when I do these
(09:59):
trainings and I've done, youknow, hundreds and hundreds,
thousands of people in over ahundred countries, and I say,
you know, can you think of atime when you were heard?
And often they can't.
And that feels so sad.
And that kind of increases the,you know, as I see it, an
epidemic of loneliness.
And what we can do when webecome great listeners is to
(10:21):
listen to the people around us.
As a starter to people at workand then also to to, you know,
to colleagues and to even tostrangers and even to people who
think differently to us.
And what can really liberate usto that possibility is
understanding that by listening,we do not signal agreement.
(10:42):
And to me that is reallycritical.
Stephanie Barron Hall (10:45):
That is so important because I think
that's something that I talkabout.
You know, when I.
Work with people is to say, justbecause somebody's silent or
because they're smiling andnodding, they're trying to
convey that they'reunderstanding, but that doesn't
mean that they agree.
So like, give them a moment toalso like, share their
perspective.
Um, and I'd love to hear morefrom you about how you contrast
(11:06):
this concept of deep listeningfrom active listening, which
we've all heard of, and wethink, oh yeah, that's the way
I'm supposed to be.
How does deep listening compareto that?
Emily Kasriel (11:14):
Actually, interestingly, The term active
listening was created by CarlRogers with a colleague who was
this fantastic Americanpsychologist, born at the very
beginning of the 20th century.
And he meant active listening.
Pretty, I've drawn very, veryclosely on my work on deep
listening from his.
Unfortunately, in the businesscontext, research is evidence
(11:37):
that active listening is veryinstrumental.
We listen long enough to kind offeel like we've done the
listening.
We say, yeah, I get you.
I understand.
It's performative.
It's not genuine.
We are not curious.
We don't listen to ourselvesfirst and figure out what have
we got that might get in the wayof some real thoughts by the
(11:59):
speaker.
And our own listening, and so itpeople sense it is not
authentic.
They feel that it is a kind of,okay tick box, done the
listening.
Now I'll tell you what youreally should be doing, and
therefore we leave feelingdismissed or used rather than
fully heard.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:16):
Yeah, the whole listening to under or
listening to respond versus
Emily Kasriel (12:20):
Yeah, exactly.
One person, a theologian calledJacqueline Bussey, coined it
that we reload our verbal gunwith ammunition ready to fire.
And I think that's what a lot ofus do far too often.
Stephanie Barron Hall (12:34):
Yes, absolutely.
I would love to hear a littlebit more about.
You know, your process, what youlay out in the book.
Um, but before we go into that,I'm just wondering if you can
share a little bit more aboutthe context in which you see
this being appropriate, becauseI've heard you say not only
personal relationships andworkplace relationships, but a
more resilient society.
(12:55):
So tell me more about thatconcept.
Emily Kasriel (12:57):
Well, I think, I mean, we all know about
polarization.
In fact, when I was, you know,in the us um, I happened to be
there working with the AtlanticCouncil on Inauguration Day.
I thought a good opportunity,and I spent two days listening
to Trump supporters tell me whythey felt so passionately that
they were flying all over thecountry to QR in the.
(13:19):
Freezing cold to get into theCapital One arena, and it was
bloody cold, as we say in theuk.
And they knew from some of myquestions that perhaps I wasn't
the biggest Trump supporter.
And yet one of them said to meafter I heard her, she said, you
know.
What was really interestingabout you is that you were
really curious and I feltaccepted as a person and that
(13:43):
was so moving to me becausethat's what you want.
You want people to feel heard.
And what's interesting is thatthe research evidences both
other research and indeedresearch that I've conducted.
'cause I thought, I'm not doinga thousand people in a hundred
countries without getting thismeasured.
So I reached out to academics.
And the paper's just beenpublished in that well-known
bedtime read a Journal ofApplied Social Psychology, not,
(14:07):
but it was, you know, properlygone through peer review, which
showed that when people felttruly heard and were deeply
listened to, they.
Became more open and they alsobecame more willing to examine
their own attitudes.
And I think that's a real bigincentive for all of us, that
when we listen to people, peopleno longer feel on the defensive.
(14:28):
They can reduce what DanielleKahneman, uh said.
He said, systems one and Systemstwo, systems one's the automatic
sort of arguing way of thinking.
And systems two is the much moreconsidered.
Uh, approach and it allows us tokind of all reduce our stress
levels, both the speaker and thelistener, and therefore we can
be up in a place to really hearsomeone and then they don't feel
(14:51):
the need to insist on theirperspectives.
Stephanie Barron Hall (14:54):
Yeah.
Well, and I think that's soimportant and, um, you know, in
our, I I, all of our societieshave polarization, right?
But you know.
Myself, being an American, I, Ijust can't help but think about
the situation that we've beenin, especially over the last
several years and seeing so muchof this just contention and
really avoidance of thesetopics.
(15:16):
Um, and it's my friends who arereally, really committed to, I.
Asking questions and likeunderstanding and processing
through and saying like, yeah, Ihave a different perspective,
but like, I understand how yougot there.
Those are the people who arehaving the best conversations
and who could actually helpinspire change, um, in
(15:37):
themselves and in others becausewe have to have those
conversations.
Emily Kasriel (15:42):
that's such a beautiful point.
And what's exciting is once westart doing so, it often feels
very risky.
But in fact, Nick Epley at theUniversity of Chicago did
research that when we talk tostrangers, we.
Often fear it will be weird anduncomfortable.
And actually when we dare totalk to strangers at a bus stop,
you know, queuing up in thesupermarket, if you don't do an
(16:04):
online shop, you know, we stillhave opportunities to meet
people face to face in manyplaces.
It makes a huge difference toour own wellbeing because
ultimately we are socialanimals.
We want to connect.
And when you get a smile fromsomeone, it could be so
beautiful.
I mean, I was in the pharmacythe other day picking up, uh uh,
some drugs from my daughter.
And I spoke to this woman andshe was saying that, she said
(16:26):
something really like small,that was it.
I couldn't remember mydaughter's birthday.
And it was crazy'cause I gotconfused and I thought she was
like one rather than 23 orsomething.
Yeah.
And the woman just laughed andlaughed at me and I said, yeah,
it's funny, you know, we allmess up.
And she said to me.
She was sitting on a chair.
She said, yeah, you know, I'mworried about age.
(16:49):
And then she talked about thefact that she thought that her
grandmother, she might outliveher because she obviously had
some disease.
And then she started talkingabout it, and then she started
crying and she apologized forcrying, but she was obviously.
So need to be heard, and Ididn't judge her.
I didn't try and make herbetter, which is what we often
try and do and say, don't worrydear.
(17:10):
I'm sure it's okay.
Well, it's not okay.
Actually.
She feels the passing of yearswas really challenging for her,
but being able to accept her andallow her.
Uh, to share these feelings.
A total stranger prompted by asilly mistake I made.
We had this connection and Ileft feeling like I'd been able
(17:30):
to help somebody.
And we all know how much weenjoy helping all of us.
We want to feel needed and thatwe can do some good in the
world, and it can feel sopowerful and it can be in the
strangest unexpected situations.
Stephanie Barron Hall (17:44):
What do you think?
Because to me it seems like theroot of like the fixing and the
avoidance is our, our owninability to be with those big
feelings.
How do you deal with that whenyou're working with people, you
know, throughout this timeperiod that you've been doing
this work?
Emily Kasriel (18:04):
I mean, I think it's a really good point.
I would say when people are intrauma, like many people have
said to me, can you deal, go toIsrael or go to Gaza and deal
with people there who've got,you know, in the midst of
conflict.
I think people in the midst ofconflict are not able to deeply
listen to others.
They feel, you know, theirsurvival instinct is.
Kicked in and they feel sotraumatized that they're in no
(18:27):
space to listen to others.
But I think people adjacent toconflict and America as yet, I
mean, obviously some people arefeeling a little traumatized by
the result of some of these, uh,legislation if you know, if you
are a deported immigrant and soforth.
But if you are not at the verysharp end of what's going on,
can you.
See it in yourself, and it mightwell be with somebody in your
(18:49):
family.
I mean, I know how, you know, Ihave a lot of American friends
and how many of them havefamilies who are divided have
old friends from their hometownin their home state who are, who
think differently to them, andwhat can they do to accept the
person?
Which doesn't mean acceptingtheir ideas necessarily, but it
may mean nuancing their ownideas when they truly are
(19:12):
curious.
And as you say, a good starterquestion is what in your life
has led you to believe what youdo?
'cause we all got backstories.
I told you a bit about mybackstory.
Um, or at least some of it inthe intro.
And when you hear the backstory,other people start to make more
sense.
Stephanie Barron Hall (19:29):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.
I, I just can, I'm also justimagining all of these like.
Challenging conversations thatwe have because they feel so
emotionally charged
Emily Kasriel (19:40):
Hmm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (19:41):
and working on my own ability to
allow people to have their bigfeelings, you know what I mean?
Um, or like, especially in thatmoment in the pharmacy where you
didn't fix that woman's, youknow, feelings.
You just let her have them.
Um, and that can be a gift andI, but I think it takes
something that we don't alwayspractice, which is the space
(20:03):
within ourselves.
Emily Kasriel (20:04):
Yeah, it's such a beautiful way of putting it
because we have to be centered,and as I talk you through my
process of deep listening, beingcentered, having that space as
you so beautifully put it inourselves to be able to accept
some either feelings of anger,feelings of fear, you know, I'm
actually about to start a coursein, or a introduction of a
(20:27):
course at the Tavistock Centerin London in Psychoanalytical
psychotherapy.
And as part of that.
You need to go and dovolunteering, and I'm signing up
and going for my introduction tosomething called the Listening
Space to see if it's right forme, which welcomes people who
are at the edge of taking theirown life to support them.
I don't know quite whether I'mgonna be strong enough to be
able to be with people who aresupremely vulnerable, but I'm
(20:52):
interested to see if I can,because to me that would be
hugely meaningful.
But we don't all have to dothat, you know?
But we can be with our kids andour parents and lots of people
around us and all of us gothrough difficult things.
All of us are traumatized atsome point.
A depressed at some point,challenged at some point.
I don't think any of us is likeSupreme kind of, well maybe you
(21:14):
are if you're a Supreme edmonth, but not many of us and
all of us are
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:17):
No.
Emily Kasriel (21:18):
challenges and have undergone lots of different
types of trauma.
Stephanie Barron Hall (21:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, so I'm wondering if youcould share your eight step
method, um, and these actualsteps that you've put together
to help people reconnect throughthis authentic communication.
Emily Kasriel (21:33):
Sure.
So the first step of deeplistening is, um, create the
space.
And this means, first of all,psychological space of safety.
So if you are about to givefeedback or hear some difficult
conversation at work, andthere's an open plan office or a
glass office and people can seeyou.
Ain't gonna feel safe for thespeaker and what feels safe very
(21:54):
much varies.
So you need to put yourself inyour speaker's shoes to think
about what would be a safe placefor them.
I mean, some woman told me thatwhen her kid came home from
school and was just refused togo to school ever again, climbed
under her bed.
And the mother joined herdaughter under the bed because
that was her safe space.
Or another person told me theirkid, you know, wanted to sit in
(22:15):
his bedroom surrounded by histoys when they listened to the
kid.
That was their safe space.
So we all have different safespaces and think about what's
safe for your speaker, and thenit's thinking about.
Uh, you know, still step onethinking about, um, the acoustic
environment because if it's anoisy cafe where you've got the
sounds of other speakers whichdrown out your, your speaker or
(22:39):
you know, something, that's whyposh restaurants have flowing
curtains and nice comfortableseating.
But in your own home, you know,the wood is really good.
Bit of an echo, not too much anecho, um, that is important.
And then the lighting, sharpoverhead, blue white lights.
Not so good, much better.
Softer yellow with longerwavelengths, lights that bounce
(22:59):
off the wall, you can change thelighting'cause it makes us feel
more relaxed.
Um, I remember when I gave birthto my eldest and I went to the
public hospital here and theyhad this horrible blue white
strip lighting and the midwifeswitched that off and she put
on.
The nice sort of yellow orangeincubator, baby incubator, like
just for me.
(23:20):
So I could do the kind ofbirthing business.
I was in a water birth, I wasvery lucky.
Um, you know, and feel morerelaxed, you know, more like a
person, not a patient.
So it's getting thoseenvironments right and then
really a place even more sowhere the speaker can feel
cherished.
So I was in Japan spending timewith tea ceremony practitioners,
so they think very carefully,like if I'm handing you a cup of
(23:41):
tea, I will rotate my mug.
Exactly to have this, having tosay, Papa, it's my husband's.
But you know, the bit that willbe, make you feel more
cherished.
And they have 72 seasons andthey get a treat, which fits
that exact season.
And a fresh leaf, like from thebalcony to put on top of the
water to make, bring natureinside.
So that's a, you know, ways thatwe can inspire us or put on
(24:03):
your, your partner's favoritemusic track if you're gonna be
really listening to them andhelping them unwind.
That's step one.
So step two is listen toyourself first.
Because unless we do so, when welisten to someone else, we are
actually not listening to them.
We are listening to our ownstuff.
'cause we all have like a familyof shadows.
And when we.
(24:24):
You know, let's say we aredisproportionately fearful of
meeting the ENG boiling engineerwho's supposed to sort out our
central heating.
It's not just because we mighthave no heating for three months
and get freezing, it's becausehe might represent something in
our own psyche and we projectour stuff.
Onto speakers, and we aren'treacting to them.
(24:45):
We are reacting to our ownshadows.
So taking the time, especiallybefore an important and or
difficult conversation can betransformational, not only with
our own shadows, but also to beopen with what's our real
agenda.
Um, I was talking to a friendabout their, uh, younger friend,
about their, you know,conversation with their
boyfriend and saying, you know,what do you really want from
(25:07):
this?
You know what's, what's at stakehere?
What do you really, so at leastif you are clear in your own
mind about what's important tome, it might well be that the
relationship itself is moreimportant than the important
angry things that you think youhave to say.
So taking that time before thoseconversations is critical.
And part three is being present.
(25:29):
And you spoke so beautifullyabout having the space inside
us.
How can we cultivate that spaceinside us so that we can.
Convey a space for somebodyelse, not only to share their
stuff, but also to think newthoughts.
And that's what's so excitingabout deep listening, is that we
can provide the opportunity forpeople around us to create ideas
(25:52):
that they never even imagined.
That's what I know from being anexecutive coach, and it's so
exciting when you see people,you've got what you think is
your fab solution.
You provide the space for themsettled, open, even in like a
busy BBC meeting room.
And suddenly who, they'll gosilent on you.
They'll look up and they'll havenew thoughts that they never
(26:15):
before imagined.
And if you have an ongoingrelationship, as I did with my
coaching clients, you saw themtransform and that they, uh,
Carl Rogers spoke very movinglyabout the fact that we are all
in a process of becoming.
And that is so beautiful.
We are not fixed to the personwe were last year, last week, or
last night.
We can all change and deeplistening provides the other
(26:36):
person the space to think newthoughts, to become the best
person they could possibly be,and to overcome challenges in
ways we would've neveranticipated.
So, you know, I've been onvarious silent retreats as part
of my meditation practices.
I love the Waking Up app.
Uh, there's lots of reallygreat, um, meditations.
And speakers to inspire you indifferent ways.
(26:59):
There's so many people.
Tara Brack is fantastic.
I also interviewed for myprogram La Kelly and John Kaba
Zinn, who's also endorsed mybook, um, who's a big
mindfulness compan, who I'veworked with at the BBC and um,
and been inspired and gone tohis meditation.
So there's a lot of differentways, and I was inspired when I
was heard by First NationCanadians and they just sat
(27:20):
there.
I was talking about some of myown family trauma.
And I, they didn't try andconnect their trauma with mine.
They just.
Allowed me and accepted me.
And that on some measure allowedme to accept myself and it was
so beautiful.
So I'm very inspired when I justthink of the way that they see
us and the earth and the windand the trees and ancestors and
(27:44):
future progeny as all beingcollected together.
And it's in that space that theyprovide the space for somebody
to be heard.
And that's really beautiful andinspiring for me.
So step four is the qualitiesyou project to your speaker.
And I always say I start with agateway of curiosity.
'cause if you could be trulycurious about them, they can
(28:06):
then tell you something.
Like your neighbor can say, ohyeah, my daughter, she's
training to be a teacher.
Suddenly you've got a footholdinto their world because they've
shared something with you andyou can then become more
empathetic.
Really what a beautiful thing tobe doing.
Tell me about that.
You know, tell me more.
Always good say, tell me more.
Not tell me.
Tell me what else?
'cause you go deeper rather thanjust stay at surface.
(28:28):
So curiosity is great.
And from that comes empathy.
Also respect.
And that again is respect forthe person rather than for any
specific thing that they havedone or deed or passing sin that
they've committed.
You are respecting them fortheir humanity, which we all
share.
You know, and then, um, theother, the last part of the, of
(28:51):
the qualities that we project onour speaker is being
non-judgmental.
It's really, I wouldn't even saynon-judgmental.
We are, have evolved to bejudgmental.
We need to tell friend or fo,you know, friend from foe or we
wouldn't be safe.
We need to know the berries fromthe tigers.
But, and poison berries fromhealthy berries.
So we need to make judgments andwe do that.
(29:11):
Otherwise, I wouldn't know if Isat on my seat, it wasn't made
of jelly and I would fallstraight through, but we can
become aware of the judgments wemake and especially important.
For example, if you'reinterviewing somebody, you know,
are you making judgments the waythey look, the way they sound,
what does it reflect about you,where they come from and how can
we self-correct when we becomeaware we don't have to share
(29:33):
them?
Stephanie Barron Hall (29:34):
Mm-hmm.
Emily Kasriel (29:34):
So step five is the gaze, and that's what makes
it so hard to talk online.
'cause now I'm looking at you bylooking straight at the camera,
but I can't see your face oryour smile, so I don't feel so
connected.
They are now evolving cameras tosit in the middle of screens,
which is useful.
So the gaze is important andthere's so much research.
I mean, if you're listening to aFirst Nation elder, perhaps from
(29:57):
that community, don't look atthem in the eye.
There's certain communitieswhere it's not acceptable.
the gaze is such a critical wayin the way we connect, but it's
not an angry fuko like gaze,which makes people feel insecure
and worried and upset.
It's much more a warm, embracinggaze that we talked about, using
those qualities of curiosity,respect, empathy, and without
(30:19):
judgment.
And what happens?
You've got this gaze window andboth, both our eyes connect
together.
That's the case window And thenyou as a speaker, you might
wander off, but because my eyesare on you, you'll feel safer
and go on a more interestingjourney and then you'll return
and will connect again.
And if you find I'm not there,you, the research shows that you
(30:40):
will repeat yourself or get lostin thought because I'm not
connected to you.
So the gates is so important inthat step five.
I also look at other ways wecan, um.
Use our body language and thelook at the body language of the
speaker to understand more aboutwhat they're saying and feeling
and what they're not saying.
So we know about, you know, if Isit looking crossed arms with
(31:02):
you, it'd be defensive ratherthan open.
And you can see my hands.
I mean, most people know aboutsimple body language and about
slightly leaning in, in order toappear interested like you
matter.
Um, and that's important.
You wanna do, you can do nodsbut keep them kind of gentle,
not too vigorous'cause it's okayfed up.
I've had enough now time's up,you know, so it's getting that
(31:23):
right and making it authenticfor you.
When it comes to reading yourspeaker, there was a piece of
research in, uh, in 19.
69, I think, I can't remember,1970, which said that nonverbal,
that verbal communication wasnot so important.
What was much more important wasfacial expression.
This is not true at all.
This has been completelydisproved and said to be
(31:44):
nonsense, even by theresearcher, but is often quoted
in a lot of communicationresearch still all over online
by a researcher called Moravianin California.
So what the research seems toindicate is that, of course what
we say is super important wordsare important facial
expressions.
I might be really smiley, butthat's'cause I'm about to snag
(32:06):
the last donut on the plate.
Not because I'm really happy orI'm looking anxious, but it's
not because you've saidsomething awful.
It's because I'm wondering howthe hell am I gonna get home in
time for the game?
You know?
So facial expressions.
People can be happy or sad evenif you get that right for
different reasons.
That's tough.
Gestures not very helpful unlessyou're speaking a foreign
(32:27):
language or you say, oh, thatriver was that high, and you
point, that can be great.
But what is important is tone ofvoice.
And that's why sometimes on avoice only call, we find it
easier to understand what theperson is saying and feeling and
thinking rather than in aface-to-face call.
'cause we get, um, obscured bypeople's faces and that even
(32:47):
though we feel connected, whichis great, we, I.
Sometimes know less about whatthey're really feeling.
So step six is hold the silencebecause silence is so exciting.
So many people fear silence.
And in the book, which I alsoillustrate by the way, which is
really fun'cause I like drawing,and I thought if I'm doing a
(33:08):
book, I'm going to illustrateit.
Um, so I've got a picture ofnine types of silence'cause
there's a beautiful poem by PaulGoodman.
Can I just read it about thenine types of silence?
It's very beautiful.
He says There is the dumbsilence of slumber or apathy,
the sober silence that goes witha solemn animal face.
(33:30):
The Fertile Silence of Awarenesspasturing the soul when new
thoughts emerge.
The alive silence of alertperception ready to say this.
This, the musical silence thataccompanies absorbed activity.
The silence of listening toanother speak, catching the
(33:52):
drift, and helping him be clear.
The noisy silence of resentmentand self-recrimination, loud and
sub vocal speech, but su to sayit.
Baffled Silence.
The silence of peaceful accordwith other persons, or communion
with the cosmos.
And I think that gives us asense of the different types of
(34:14):
silence.
And when people fear silence,they often fear a, a kind of
exploitative, intimidatingsilence rather than an
empowering.
Silence of space with all thequalities that we talked about
earlier.
And um, often I tell people, andI can make you the listeners a
suggestion, just try three tofive seconds of silence after
(34:36):
the person has finishedspeaking.
'cause you'll often find.
And you've gotta learn to becomfortable.
'cause it feels bloody awkwardat the beginning.
You'll often find that they'llthink new thoughts and it also
gives you the time to make senseof what they've said.
And of course, silence is theopposite of interrupting.
We're all so keen to interrupt.
I used to be such a badinterrupter.
(34:57):
I still am at times because wethink we're helping the other
person.
We are helping complete theirsentence.
We're helping them think ofsomething that was on the edge
of their thinking, but we.
Ah, can do it quicker and savetime.
And in fact, what we do is weare stealing from them their
time to think.
Stephanie Barron Hall (35:13):
Hmm.
Emily Kasriel (35:13):
So it's actually very damaging, interrupting, and
it's hugely arrogant because wethink, you know, by
interrupting, it's like what Ihave to say next is more
important than what you have tothink.
And knowing that and alsohearing people say things that I
would've never imagined when Igive them that space, really has
helped me in my journey to stopbeing such an interrupter and to
(35:34):
learn to be comfortable withsilence.
But I don't always, I should sayabout this whole deep listening
stuff, as my family will tellyou, I'm still very much a work
in progress.
So step seven is aboutreflecting back.
Now on your active listeningcourses, you pick up the last
thing the person has said.
You parrot back a few words, andthat's that.
This is the opposite of deeplistening, reflection.
(35:57):
In deep listening, you arereally trying to encapsulate the
very core of what the person hassaid.
What has not been said but isimportant to them and the
emotions.
'cause if you don't reflect backthe emotions, they will not feel
heard.
And this is quite hard to do.
Sometimes you can reflect backin silence.
(36:18):
Sometimes you can just pick outone critical word I.
And sometimes you might talkabout what is, um, harmonic,
what is the kind of metareflections?
What are they saying that leadsto the same conclusion or what's
discordant like in music?
They say, on one hand you talkabout your intense love for your
mother.
And on the other, I'm hearingyou say you are quite resentful.
(36:41):
Is that right?
And it's always offered with aspirit of humility because the
other person, um.
Can then, uh, you know, be freeto say, yeah, you know, you
haven't quite got it.
But they, by saying what it isnot, they helps them clarify in
their own mind and you tounderstand them more clearly.
(37:02):
So I think that's reallyexciting.
And then state step eight is thedeeper narrative.
It's really using your.
Third year to use a term coinedby psychoanalyst who is a pupil
of Sigmund Freud to your DoReich, and he called it your
third ear.
And I've done a picture of itwith a third ear painted in the
middle of the chest.
And I use like my subconsciousthat I trust to listen to your
(37:25):
subconscious and again, offer itwith humility.
Might not be right for everyoccasion.
Certainly in a professionalcontext, you've gotta be a
little wary, but it enables youto also.
You know, really tune into yourspeaker's values and their
deeper needs.
And I should just say there werea lot of ethical issues, which
I'd outline in the book arounddeep listening.
(37:46):
People often share more thanthey perhaps wanted to.
Again, in a work context, youneed to sometimes say to them,
wait a minute.
Are you sure you want tocontinue here?
You need to contract.
You need to be fair.
You need to keep itconfidential.
And sometimes you may hear morethan you are ready to bear.
And there you need to keepyourself spa safe.
(38:06):
And that's really important.
You, if you don't feel you cantake it, you need to have a
break or to refer the person tomore help.
Now, would you like us to do adeep listening demonstration?
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:17):
Sure.
That'd be great.
Emily Kasriel (38:18):
Yeah.
So if I ask you, Stephanie, Letme think.
Tell me about a time you felttruly heard, or if you can't
think of one a time when youwould've liked to have felt
really heard.
Stephanie Barron Hall (38:34):
Okay, sure.
So, um, I can tell you bothactually.
I am pregnant, so I am expectingthis summer and, um, my family
history.
We have a long history of havinggigantic babies and my husband
(38:55):
was also quite a large.
Baby.
and so of course I have thisfear about shoulder dys, socia,
um, in particular.
And you know, so I'm likeresearching and looking up the
different things and my doctorhad mentioned it at one point,
so I'm just like worried.
And I was telling my husbandthat I was worried and he was
(39:16):
kind of like.
Trying to gauge, is this just athing that you're worried about
that everyone is, or is there aparticular reason that you're
worried?
And I really did not feel heard.
So the next
Emily Kasriel (39:30):
No, let's just stop there.
Let's just stop there for a sec.
So I'm hearing you say that youare pregnant and you are due to
have a baby and congratulationsand you have this family history
that there's a bit of you,there's a bit of proud of it, of
having these ginormous babies,but there's also a fear because
you know there's certainconditions which it leads to.
(39:52):
And this is real for you.
You are carrying this babypregnancy, you know, towards a
outcome which is all being well,a delivery of a healthy baby.
And it is.
Your husband also was a bigbaby, and it's important to you
from him that he really getsthis.
And when you talked about it tohim and he just put it into a
(40:16):
binary, is this it or is thismore important?
You felt dismissed.
Is that right?
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:24):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I felt like theinsinuation was, you're just
being a little silly.
You're just being anxious to beanxious.
No need for that.
Not that he said any of that.
That's just how I felt.
Yeah.
Emily Kasriel (40:43):
So it felt as if.
He didn't take your concernsseriously.
Is that, is that,
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:53):
Yeah.
Emily Kasriel (40:53):
and that's important to you because it's
real for you?
Stephanie Barron Hall (40:58):
Yeah.
It's real for me.
And also, um.
I like to feel prepared as muchas I can, and childbirth is one
of those things that you don'tget to prepare.
I mean, you prepare, but likeyou don't get to choose a lot.
Like it happens how it happens.
And, uh, I get a little bitanxious that, you know, we might
(41:21):
go into that situation and hemight not be prepared either.
Where I've said, I'm anxiousabout this thing, and he's never
thought of it.
So he's not prepared, you know?
Emily Kasriel (41:34):
And so it's not only an emotional thing, it's
also.
Kind of important to you becauseyou are working in childbirth,
which is an uncontrollableprocess.
You feel you and your husband asa partnership together need to
be, give the most knowledge andthe most, um, much as you can.
(41:57):
And it's not a insignificantworry, which is how you felt a
bit when you had thatconversation.
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:04):
Yeah.
And I also think it's, uh, asthe birthing parent, you're the
one who bears a lot of theweight of doing all the research
and finding all the things,planning and all that
Emily Kasriel (42:17):
So let's, let's just stop that kind of role play
How did you feel about thatconversation?
Stephanie Barron Hall (42:23):
Good.
Yeah.
Um, I think I feel heard andlistened to and I felt a little
bit like, sorry for throwingBrandon under the bus, um, but
also.
The next morning we had a very,he and I had a very similar
conversation, where I said, Ireally didn't feel heard.
And then he was like, oh, okay,let's try that again then.
(42:47):
and I think that feels reallyimportant to be able to revise
those conversations.
Emily Kasriel (42:53):
Yeah, if we are in a state and we have a good,
strong relationship and to beable to say not feeling hurt
because you know, on some levelwe all want somebody else to
understand us in all ouremotions with our whole self,
and it feels so good.
When they can do that.
And I thought, I've done anotherpicture in the book of somebody
(43:14):
being in somebody else's head inwith lots of different facial
expressions because we want toall be heard with our whole
selves, and that's why it's sopowerful and it's conduc.
So much to enhance relationshipswith couples, with children,
with parents, because it'sunderstanding and accepting our
complexity and contradictions.
(43:37):
And sometimes the fact that lifeisn't solvable.
There's no answer to you havinga big baby.
That's what you may well have,but you know, there's no magic
pill.
But you can be better prepared.
And it's almost more, not eventhat, it's you wanna be heard
because this is important to youright now.
Stephanie Barron Hall (43:55):
And I do think that, that in my
experience, and I don't know ifthis has come up in your, your
research, but, um, there's apart of it where it diffuses a
lot of the pent up emotion,right?
Because, um, once you feelheard, then it, it doesn't feel
so big and scary anymore.
Emily Kasriel (44:13):
Yeah, exactly.
Because when we have all thosesometimes crazy thoughts in the
middle of the night and when, ifwe are lucky enough to have a
close partner to share them within the morning, they can really
help us, um, by giving them someperspective sometimes.
But even without sayinganything, just simply being
heard can be so powerful forwellbeing.
Stephanie Barron Hall (44:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I'm wondering if there islike one.
Little tool or one littleresource or, or something that
people can start to apply.
You know, you've given us, youknow, the, the eight action
steps and so much, so much of itis really just like changing
your own stance in a way, towardthe other person, right.
(44:57):
To be more curious andempathetic.
But what is one place that wecan start if we wanna start
being practicing deep listening?
Emily Kasriel (45:05):
I think it's watching ourself when we fall
into the listening traps, whenwe get caught into proving
somebody's wrong.
When we get caught in trying tosolve and fix, and then telling
ourself, reminding ourselves togo.
Back into being curious, youknow, what is it that's really
(45:26):
driving the other person.
So it allows us to get outtathat reactive mode and gives us
the opportunity and in order todo that, a breath, a simple
breath, like when you seeyourself getting all bent up and
angry, breathing in.
And breathing out and takingthat minute, even a few seconds
(45:47):
sometimes can help settleourselves to be open to what the
other person has to say, andthey will sense that too.
And suddenly all new thingsbetween the two of you are
possible and never felt possiblebefore.
Stephanie Barron Hall (46:02):
I think that's such a gift that we can
give each other as well because,um, you know, I hear from a lot
of people who are like, I justdon't feel understood and I
think that people tell methey're understanding me and
they're not.
And I can tell, and I reallyappreciate this practice as one
that can help us understand moreand even understand ourselves
(46:23):
better because we can.
If we're slowing things down, wecan recognize like, oh, this is
triggering something inside me,and what, what's that about?
Let me think about that later,after I'm, after this
conversation.
But
Emily Kasriel (46:35):
E Exactly right.
It's, you say it so beautifullyand it, I detail that in my book
is that listening to ourselvesfirst, I mean, sometimes if we
get these shadows, we can takethem for a walk and we can say
out loud in nature or somewhereprivate in a room, what's really
going on?
Why are you feeling so angry?
And let that person have a bigshout, and you'll find all sorts
of amazing, interesting things.
(46:56):
And once it's out there, it'snot so toxic.
Stephanie Barron Hall (47:00):
Yeah.
Well if, if we're all out hereshouting the forest, I guess we
can blame you for it.
Emily Kasriel (47:06):
Yeah, I'm happy to take the blame.
I'm very happy to do that.
I'm.
Stephanie Barron Hall (47:10):
So where can people find your book?
Emily Kasriel (47:12):
Well, the book is being published by Harper
Collins, so you can get a copyof it on Amazon or in any
bookstore That's good aboutHarper Collins great
distribution network.
So that's very exciting.
And that is on the 24th of June.
But if you pre-order, that'seven better.
'cause apparently pre-ordersare.
Super important, and I reallygenuinely want more people to
(47:33):
read the book because I'mmotivated to try and do
something to combat the twincrises of polarization and
loneliness.
So if you pre-order and thatexcites the bookstores and they
think it's more popular and getmore people to read it, then we
can do something to make a dentin these real crises that we
have in our, in our society.
Um, and if you wanna know moreabout me, you can find out more
(47:54):
about me on my website, emilykasriel.com.
That's Emily E-M-I-L-Y-K-A-S forsierra RIE l.com.
Or uh, or follow me on LinkedIn.
Stephanie Barron Hall (48:09):
Perfect.
Um, okay.
I have my final two questionsthat I ask everyone.
First one is, tell me about abook that has helped you
refreshed you or shaped you inthe last year.
Emily Kasriel (48:19):
So I have just not quite finished this book
that my son recommended me, andit's called Orbital by Samantha
Harvey.
And it's won, uh, various prizesand it's the most beautiful but
very short book.
About a spacecraft, about sixindividuals who spend time on
this spacecraft.
And the woman I don't think'sever been, hasn't been on a
(48:40):
spacecraft, but they look at theearth with such love and
preciousness, and we know thatif you see somebody.
Loving another thing or aperson, you also are more likely
to feel love for that thing.
And they have such emotivefeelings'cause they have to cope
with like loads of sunsets andsunrises every day.
(49:02):
And they scoot over bits ofAlaska or Europe or bits of the
world or see a typhoondevastating bits of the
Philippines, but from above.
And they're in this weird littlemetallic capsule and yet they
are so connected.
To the wonder of the Earth, andit's really beautiful and it's
really short and it's uplifting.
I recommend it highly.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:24):
That sounds fantastic.
I love it.
I'll definitely have to checkthat one out.
Um, okay.
Final question.
Tell me a piece of advice thathas really stuck with you.
Emily Kasriel (49:34):
You don't have to get it right.
You know, sometimes we put suchpressure on ourselves to be like
a perfect listener, and we needto be curious and nonjudgmental
and compassionate to ourself andallow us to be in a journey of
becoming rather than think thatwe've gotta get it all right at
first or all the time.
Stephanie Barron Hall (49:56):
Yeah, I think that's so important too.
And um.
You know, you mentioned earlierthat you don't always get it
right.
You know, ask your kids orwhatever.
And I think that is that oldadage of we write the books that
we are meant to read in a sense.
And I, I love that example of,of being here and practicing it
and also knowing like there isspace to get it wrong.
(50:19):
Maybe revise that conversationlater.
Um, whatever you need to do.
Emily Kasriel (50:23):
Yeah.
That's so beautiful.
Thank you so much.
I've so enjoyed thisconversation, Stephanie.
It's been really beautiful.
Thank you.
Stephanie Barron Hall (50:30):
Thanks so much for being here.
Steph Barron Hall (50:31):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway
(50:52):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(51:13):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
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