Transcending Type with Enneagram 8, Sandra Smith

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hello and welcome to Enneagramin Real Life, the podcast where
we explore how to apply ourEnneagram knowledge in our daily
lives.
I'm your host, Stephanie BaronHall, and on today's episode I'm
talking with author, consultant,and teacher Sandra Smith.
So a little bit about Sandrabefore we get started.
Sandra has over 24 years ofteaching experience, and weaves

(00:30):
her background in business andnon-profits with her theological
education to offer practical andcompassionate exploration of the
Enneagrams nine types, anaccredited international
Enneagram Associationprofessional, and certified in
the narrative Enneagramtradition, Sandra began teaching
the Enneagram in 2001, invitingcuriosity and compassion to

(00:50):
guide the inward turn andexploring the foundational
question, who am I?
Her understanding of the ninetypes has evolved over the years
through her work incorporations, nonprofits, faith
communities, as well as withindividuals.
Sandra co-created and co-hoststhe podcast Heart of the
Enneagram that exploresdimensions of the nine unique
Enneagram perspectives throughinterviewing guests of all nine

(01:13):
types and co-authored hiscompanion book, heart of the
Enneagram, a companion fordeepening personal and spiritual
growth.
Her new book, the Enneagram,mapped to Your Deeper Self.
Living Beyond Your Type is nowavailable by Hampton Roads
Publishing and it came out lastyear.
Learn more about her work byvisiting her website.
Alchemy Works events.com orfollow her on Instagram at

(01:37):
Sandra Smith.
Alchemy Works in this episode, Ihad a really fun time talking
with Sandra.
She is a type eight and shetalks a lot about the
transformative role theEnneagram has played in her
personal growth and how she nowteaches the system as a map
toward presence and innerfreedom rather than just a
typing tool.
And so we explored how we workwith clients and teams and how

(01:59):
to utilize other points on themap, so not just our own type,
but other points as well, andhow embodied presence can open
the doors to deeper truth.
Toward the end of ourconversation, Sandra also
graciously offered type specificpractices from her book to help
listeners move beyond their egohabits.
I really hope you'll enjoy thisepisode in true eight fashion,
it was to the point andpractical.

(02:19):
I felt like we packed in a tonof information in a short period
of time.
So I really hope you enjoy it.
And without further ado, here'smy conversation with Sandra
Smith.

Stephanie Barron Hall (02:30):
Well, Sandra, welcome to the podcast.

Sandra Smith (02:33):
I'm so happy to be here, Steph.
Thanks for inviting me.

Of course.
And I'm excited to talk with youa little bit because we were
just chatting, sharing a littlebit about, you know, the, your
background with the Enneagramand I'd love to just begin
there.
So can you share with us alittle bit about how you found
the Enneagram, um, and how longyou've been working with it and
those sorts of things?

Sure.
The first sentence in theintroduction to my new book
says, In the summer of 1991, A tshirt changed my life.
So yeah, and it's also true thatsummer, um, I had begun a study

(03:20):
of theology at Emory Universityin Atlanta, so I had moved down
there from.
My home in Asheville and decidedI wanted to head west for the
summer and my faculty advisorwas on the board of Ring Lake
Ranch, a spiritual retreatcenter in the Wyoming wilderness
and said, can you give 10 weeksto go and be on staff?

(03:40):
So, of course, who could say noto that?
And one summer, one day thatsummer, I walked into the dining
hall and Sister Agnes, a sisterof Loretta from Chicago was
there.
With a t shirt on and it said,Hi, I'm a one and I went up to
her and said, Sister Agnes, thatmust be the best.
How can I be a one as well?

(04:03):
And she left a book and I'lltell you, Steph, and reading,
uh, I just gobbled it down andimmediately typed myself as a
three.
I had been in sales for a while,was competitive, high energy,
and thought I was a three.
And it wasn't until years laterwhen I actually, uh, traveled to

(04:27):
my first Enneagram intensivewith Helen Palmer and David
Daniels, I sat on the threepanel.
But when the eight panel got upthe next day, I could not stay
in my seat.
I just couldn't believe it.
So, you know, I had looked atbehavior only.
And that's what a lot of us dobecause I've found over the 25

(04:47):
years I've been teaching thisthat you know, we're not
accustomed to going beneathbehaviors.
And so then it all fell intoplace for me.
And it's like that gut punchthey say you get when you find
your type.
Um, I remember reading thechapter on type 8 in that book
and I thought, gosh, that'sterrible, who'd want to be that?

(05:12):
So I chose three, but.
Actually, uh, there's somelovely, tender hearted aids of
which most aids are.
We're just afraid to show it.

Yeah.
I totally agree because I have afew eights in my life who are
those lovely, tenderheartedpeople.
I love eights.
Um, and as a three myself,sometimes I'm like, darn it.
I wish that I could be an eight.
Um, and I think we all kind ofhave that.
Perspective at times, likewanting to be something a little

(05:44):
bit different.
Um, and how do you navigate thatas you're teaching The part
about, you know, who would wantto be that type or, you know, I
want to be something different.

Well, you know, when I teach the Enneagram, I do
teach the Enneagram system as amap.
And once we have our type,That's just the starting point,
because I see the Enneagram as amap much more than a typing
system.
So, as I say on, um, the podcastI co host, Heart of the

(06:19):
Enneagram, to not use the map islike to take a hike to it, and
you get to a trailhead, you findthe beginning.
But you stop there.
And so once we know our type,well that's the entry point into
the map of your EcoStruxure'sautomatic patterns.
Now, that is powerful.

(06:41):
It's complex.
But that map tells me how I tripmyself up.
You know, Steph, when I workwith organizations, Uh, HR tends
to love this system becauseemployees, when they have a
grievance, They get the samegrievance over and over because
they're stuck in a pattern andthe Enneagram identifies that

(07:04):
pattern.
And so, you know, when I'mteaching these days, and my
teaching has changed over those25 years, I, I begin by making
sure folks know that we're notour type.
That's not the whole story ofus.
And so the title of my book is,The Enneagram map to your deeper

(07:25):
self living beyond your type.
And so we get stuck in thesepatterns that were there by say
age 7.
And they become pretty, prettysolid neuropathways.
And, um, it can be discouragingand despairing at first.
And then you realize, wait aminute.

(07:45):
This is a habit.
These are patterns.
I can use this map to helpmyself shift behaviors and grow.
So, of course, type doesn'tchange, but it sure gives us the
lay of the land to shift, uh,limiting behaviors.
And it's really, it's reallyabout freedom, isn't it?

(08:06):
To be free from these limitingpatterns that, you know, have
some, um, advantages at times,but it's when we overuse.

Mm

So, you know, each type has great strengths, but if
we're not awake, we'll overusethem.
Mm hmm.

I really appreciate this image of the
Enneagram as a map as well,because, um, Um, I mean, similar
to you sometimes when I'mworking with teams, I say, what
is the feedback that you'vegotten, over the years, you
know, and, and a lot of the timea one we'll say something like,
you know, my manager's alwaystelling me I'm too hard on
myself.

Mm hmm.

Things like that.
Right.
So we get the same feedback overand over.
Um, but I'm curious for you, andthis is just something that's
like coming to me.
So if you don't want to talkabout this, that's fine, but,
um, For you, so say you have aclient who's working with the
Enneagram, they know their typewell, and they're really, you

(09:08):
can just sense they're not intheir core type.
They're somewhere else on themap.

Ah,

Um, how do you navigate that and help
them to, to see that?
Or, or do you do it that way inthat kind of reverse sort of way

all right, so making sure I hear what you're
asking.
If I'm working with someone whothinks they're one type, and I'm
getting a sense that they maylead with another type.
I say lead because we're not ourtype.
How do I navigate that?

Um, I'm more so thinking like, so I'll
use myself as an example.
So I'm a three.
Um, but there are times in mylife, and I think I've been in
kind of one of those spaceswhere other things are happening
and I'm seeing so many more ninebehaviors from myself, right?
And so then to me, I'm, as I'mimagining that I'm thinking, Oh,

(09:59):
like let's look on the map, youknow, here I am over at nine.
What do I do?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That

Yeah.
So those two connecting linesfor each type and the wings I
call resource points.
And here's how I would say it,and this is a teaching of Sandra
Maitre's, who's now my teacherin the Diamond Approach School,
where I've studied for a fewyears.
She uses the terms heart pointand defended point.

(10:31):
So, if I'm present in my bodyand grounded, and my body feels
expansive, probably my heart isopen.
If I'm constricted and tight andbracing, my heart is closed.
It's defended.
So when the heart is defended,we really aren't the gifts of

(10:56):
all of those four types aren'taccessible to us.
And we're overusing our owntypes strengths, but when my
heart is open and my body'sexpansive, then I, you as a
three, then have balanced use ofyour own gifts and you have
access.
to the strengths of type nineand six and two and four.

(11:22):
And so often when I'm doingworkshops on the resource
points, Steph, I'll say, youknow, look at your four resource
points.
I call them kinfolk and youknow, we have those within us,
excuse me, we just have to minea little deeper for those
strengths.
So pick one or two from yourresource points that you really

(11:43):
want to cultivate.
So, if you find that you're instress, if I'm working with a 3
who's in stress and they staybusy, but it's unproductive,
it's a numbing out, but it'shard for 3s to hang out, so when
they numb out, they're doingsomething, solitaire on the
computer, or, you know, walkingaround, window shopping, or

(12:06):
something like that.
Um, I would say, as we're taughtin the Diamond Approach work,
whatever has you baffled or instress, go into that.
Don't numb out to it, but findwhat's ailing you in your body
and where is that, and go intoit.

(12:28):
Feel into it without the story.
We put stories on emotions andthat's a bad train running right
there.
But when we start separating,The felt sense of an emotion,
uh, from the story, now we've,now we can do some work and
transform that.
I mean, there's real alchemywhen we can get in our bodies

(12:49):
and allow the body, the feltsense and staying with it to
transform the angst in us.
Whether that's disappointment orsadness or anger.

with me.
And I'm a little bit curiousabout this part because for you,
you know, you're in the bodycenter.
I'm in the heart center.
I'm curious if you see anydifference in navigating, you
know, how it feels in the body,or if you teach it the same way
to all, all of the centers.

You know, in the last chapter in my book, I have
what I call the pause process.
And it, it's universal.
We just get in our bodies nomatter the type.
Locate the fear, the anger, andget curious and offer a non
judging presence and stay withit.

(13:46):
Years ago when Elizabeth KublerRoss's book came out, I think in
the 80s, I think she said inthat book, a real emotion lasts
90 seconds.
After that, conditioned mindtakes over.
Yeah, and so it doesn't matterour type.
If we can land in the body, weall have bodies.

(14:06):
we're not accustomed to goinginto.
We suppress, we deflect, werepress, or, Steph, we express
an emotion.
And even when we're expressingthe emotion, We're not feeling
it.

Yeah.

You know, I would, I would feel angry about
something and call a friend andsay, gosh, you know, this
happened and she did this.
And then he did that.
I have a right to be angry, youknow, and hanging up the phone,
it was like, Oh my gosh, I feelmore angry now.

Yeah.

And that's why when I work with organizations,
I'm really cautious and talkingwith people about venting.
Now when you vent, what, what isthat?
How is that supporting you andreleasing the emotion?
It doesn't.

Have you read the book chatter by Ethan
cross?

I haven't, but I'll make a note.

I think it's a fantastic book for people
who have a lot of internal.
Chatter

Hmm.
Mm

Stephanie Barron Hal (15:07):
especially inner critic, second guessing,
things like that.
But he does talk about this andthere is good research to
support exactly what you'resaying.
Sometimes we don't need researchto reinforce, you know, these
ideas that, that we've tried andtested, but, um, sometimes it's
useful.
Even, you know, if somethingsmall happens, people who vent

(15:28):
about it tend to have a more,um, like a stronger reaction to
it later.

Exactly.
And this is where we're learningso much from, uh, somatic
teaching now.
And when you, when you bringthat in to the psycho spiritual
model of the Enneagram, it'sjust a powerful, powerful
moment.
Powerful intersection.
Yeah.

So I'm curious if you can trace that at
all to actually finding yourtype, because like you said,
when you sat on the three panel,You did your, you know, three
ish type thing and then the nextday you were like, Oh, I am,
these are my people.
When you heard from the eightsand I'm curious if you have like
any kind of somatic, cues thatyou help people with as they're

(16:18):
discovering their type, she

Hmm.
You know, when I was listeningto the 8th panel, I was sitting
I think on the back row in theroom, and I had to get up and
just walk around.
It just, my entire body wasbuzzing.
And just a side story, if I may,Steph.
In the narrative at the time,they would do a second round of

(16:42):
panels, and the second round wasabout growth.
And David Daniels said, Sandra,you're going to sit on the
eighth panel now, and I want youto, figure out what was the
shift.
And it was more of a, not onething, but just the gestalt of a
moment when my eyes were opened.
But I did tell the story, Steph,when I was maybe 11 or 12.

(17:05):
And I grew up in rural NorthCarolina where we never had an
earthquake.
And one day we had an earthquakeand it was just my mother and I
in the house and my dad andsisters were, And so I'm
listening to music and chillingand my mother's in the back and
all of a sudden the house startsrumbling and shaking.

(17:27):
And from the back of the house,she yells, Sandra, stop that.
Because as a young person, I hadso much energy and it was
intense.
And I was always running andjumping.

thought you were shaking the

I don't know, and I'm like, it's not me, I'm not
doing this, you know.
So, it's, it was that kind ofenergy, and threes and eights
and seven are the high energytypes, the circ types, but
there's an intensity to theeight energy, and I think I
really got that, and it helpedme distinguish between the three

(18:05):
and the eight.
Yeah.
Mm hmm.

Yeah.
I do think that eights have anintensity that's different.
I also, I do a lot of typinginterviews and I find that
eights tend to have, a moregrounded feeling,

Mm hmm.

whereas I don't, there's just something
different.
There's just some qualities thatare different for each of the
types.

true.
It's true.
And, you know, uh, body typessense energy in another.
We can match energy.
And when I'm doing Enneagramassessments, my body's doing at
least half of the discernmentbecause I'm sensing that kind of
energy.
And I'll tell you, sometimes,With a head tight, my head,

(18:49):
especially if they're reallyoverthinking, I start getting
dizzy and I know when my headstarts getting dizzy, you know,
but probably like me, you and Ihave questions that are pretty
key.
to eliminating a type.
Um, yeah.
And you know, some of that's nonverbal cues.

yeah.
And I mean, so I went throughBeatrice Chestnut's

good.

Um, and so there are a lot of those
questions and then a lot of thecues that they tell you to look
for.
And then over time you also findyour own where you're like, Oh,
this is a tell for me, you

That's right.
And as a heart type, you'll be,you have a feeling in intuition.
And, and that's really helpfulfor 2's, 3's, and 4's who are
teachers of the system and doassessments, and that's, that's
the intuition you have.
For me, it's a sensingintuition.

I would love to jump into a little bit
more of your book because yourbook is out now or coming out
soon.

It's, it's released on September 3, and I
got my author's copies, uh, lastSaturday.
And I'll have to say that one ofmy practices, as one leading
with eight, is cozying up to theword later.
And in working with that as apractice, It moves me into

(20:21):
waiting, and of course waitingis active, not passive.
But I wanted to make sure myfocus of attention wasn't what's
out of control in this book, butthat my heart would be opened,
uh, open when I opened the box.

(20:41):
So when I opened the box, and Ihad two friends here, uh, I
looked at it and just had, uh,So much gratefulness just pour
forth from my heart.
And every human who supported mewas right there.
I mean, I can almost get teary.
I was just so grateful, Steph.

Yeah.

And I'll tell you, one of the things I love about
this book is that I invited twopeople of each type to write
about, uh, to share a livedexperience.
And it's not your typical type 8or type 3 experience.
So, what I've tried to do withthis book is give type more

(21:27):
dimensionality.
I'm really tired of stereotypes,tired of pigeonholing, um, and
in the One of the first chaptersin the book, I'm reminding us,
and myself included, that eachof us is a unique manifestation
of our type.
you know, so when a six, youknow, when I'm meeting someone

(21:48):
and they say, Oh, I lead withsix, you know, I'm not thinking,
Oh, well, I know you.

Where's the fire extinguisher?

I know that's right.
That's right.
I'm thinking, I wonder what Ilearned from this person about
her unique manifestation of thetype.
And a lot of people aren't doingthat.
And it's, it's makes me quitesad about that.
So we're seeing type.

And I think sometimes what is hard
about it as well as I get peoplecoming to for typing interviews,
and I'm sure you get this aswell, where they're like, I
just, they tell me all of thethree things, for example.
Everything says three, three,three.
And they're like, but I'm justnot that successful.

(22:36):
Or I'm just not that, you know,fill in the blank.
And it's just these stereotypesthat they found.
They're like, I'm such aperfectionist.
And I'm like, yeah, well, a lotof us can be perfectionists.
So it's not really useful to usethat label for a specific type
because we have all sorts ofreasons for that behavior.
And, um, I think that that'sreally useful that you're

(22:57):
putting this, this work outthere with all of your.
You know, years of researchingand understanding the Enneagram
and bringing this differentperspective.

I love what you just said.
That using the termperfectionist isn't really
helpful.
And so, perhaps like you, Idon't use those names.
I just say type 1, type 2, type3.
So that they aren't swayed.

Yeah.

worked with someone the other day.
I've now forgotten what type sheleads with, but it was to deepen
her understanding.
And finally I, I said, you know,I think you're believing things
about yourself that you'veoutgrown.
And she really had.
So,

useful to have that perspective.

it really is.
And I remind and encouragereaders, as they approach one of
these stories of what I callcompanion voices to find
themselves in that story becausewe are more alike than
different.

(24:05):
I say that at all of myEnneagram trainings, we're going
to talk about some nuances andthe ways that we're different
and how best to communicate orhow we work in this situation.
But keep in mind, we're morealike than different.
And when we're in presence, typerecedes, and we're all the same.

(24:28):
We're all the same.
I often will begin workshopsasking for people to remember a
moment in time they were in awe.
And then describe themselves inthat moment.
And Steph, they'll describetheir virtue.
It may not be that exact word.
You know, like an eight mightsay, gosh, I was speechless.

(24:51):
Well, what is innocence, but noopinion, right?

Yeah.

And so it's just a reminder that we're more than we
realize we are.
We're so much more than weunderstand ourselves to be.
And in those moments of awe, ourpresence arises, which then
essence follows on the heels.
And there we are.
There we are.

Yeah.
That's a beautiful image.
Um, and I think I want to hear alittle bit more about your book
because it's about the map to adeeper self

Mm hmm.

and, um, I'm curious if you can give a
little bit of insight or a tip,um, for each type that might
help them move beyond thelimitations of their type and
kind of move into a little bitof that space of presence like
you're mentioning.

Sure.
Thanks for the question.
I'd be happy to and I'll prefacethis by saying When you look at
the components of each of theEnneagram types or ego
structures You can set up aquestion or a practice that
counters that.
So, I remember years ago beingvery sad for quite a while.

(26:03):
And I decided I would work withmy worldview for Type 8, which
is the world is a wild jungleand destroys the weak.
It's a terrible worldview.
And so, 8s look for the 5 and,you know.
And so, I decided to counterthat worldview with a statement
that was unbelievable to me.
And I share this in the book,but that, that statement was the

(26:25):
world is kind.
I'm sorry, the world issupportive and people want to be
kind.
Now, what, what I did was I saidthat three times a day, not as a
mantra, but as a reminder tolook for that.
Shifting my focus of attentionchanged my worldview and

(26:48):
softened me because, you know,the first month, after the first
month, I did this for threemonths, I mean, I was in pain so
I went after this, and after thefirst month I was seeing, you
know, ways that some people werekind, but six to eight weeks
later it was all around me.

(27:09):
Ways that I get carried.
And couldn't see them because ofthe blinders that I had on.
And so that, and I've continued,it became a habit really to look
for ways I get carried.
And, you know, you and I, threeand eight, and then one, we're

(27:30):
task oriented types.
We're about getting her done.
And I realized I didn't have toeffort so much.
And, uh, it, it, it softened.
The eight armor, uh, my heart'smore accessible.
It can, my heart can be touchedthese days.
Um, so it's, you know, can Ishift my attention?

(27:51):
Can I create for myself adifferent worldview that I'll
look for?
You know, when I'm, I'm workingwith nines and I'll just, now
I'll just go down.
But oftentimes with nines, I'llsay, um, how do you hide behind
harmony?

(28:13):
Who would you be if harmony werea given and that's a deer and
headlights question.
You know, it's like for typefour, who would you be if
nothing were missing?
So even, and so my book hasinquiry questions like that for
journaling, for working withothers, with those, um, um, You

(28:37):
know, there are also practicesthat counter the patterns of
each type.
And I've mentioned, you know,for, for me as an aid,
practicing later when that lifeforce, that energy comes up so
fast and, and I'll start leaningforward and then later brings me
back.
So I just put my shoulder bladeson the seat, uh, and stay and

(29:03):
just stay a little longer andwait.
And then, of course, as AssertTypes, we need to sit back in
meetings.
We need to sit back.
Whereas Nines and Fours andFives as, as, uh, Flight or
Withdrawing Types lean forwardin meetings.
You

That's so funny.
So as you're saying that I'mrecognizing, I almost never sit
on the back of a chair.
I'm on the front edge.
I'm always on the front edge ofthe chair and I'm always leaning
forward.

Well, here's our practice right there.

Yeah.

Sometimes I'm imagining Velcro between my
shoulder blades and I just putmy back against it and stay
there.
Um, it actually helps meremember me.
You know, body types are selfforgetting and just sitting
back.
Somehow it gets me in thepicture.

Yeah.

I have a better understanding of my impact on
others.
And so, you know, for Type 1, mygrandmother led with Type 1, and
I was with her near her death,and she was in the hospital, and
she never quite understood whatI did.
It's like I just talked.
And for someone who grew up inthe Depression, that just didn't

(30:20):
cut it.
And, I mean, one of the lastthings she said to me, Steph,
was, Sandra, it pays to be busy.
And, you know, ones, they justhave to be busy.
You know, it's like they'reearning their keep in the world.
That's kind of the illusion ofthe type being the responsible
adult.
And so one of the practices,especially for ones is Sabbath.

(30:43):
Take a day every week or atleast half a day where the right
thing to do is to notice yourheart's desires and follow your
heart and body rather than theshoulds.
For type 2, another type thatleans forward, although they're

(31:03):
not an assert type, um, youknow, it's always a good
practice saying no, finding waysto say no.
But for 2, it's about courage,to ask for what you need and
want.
And so the practice is once aday, Ask another to get you

(31:27):
something small, even if, whileyou're up, could you get me a
glass of water?
That simple.
Um, I have a fun story of a twogroup I led, and um, one of the
women, as I talked about asking,Someone to get you something.
Uh, she said, I've been marriedfor 35 years and I've never done

(31:50):
that.
So all the two said, Oh, you'vegot to do it tonight when you go
home.
You've got to do it.
Ask, ask your husband forsomething.
And she had all these studentpapers.
She was good at grades.
She was so tired.
Anyway, the next week.
She came in and we were sittingon the edge of our seats.
Did you, did you ask him?

(32:10):
And she said, Steph, it was sofunny.
Her husband leaves with five andI'm thinking, Please, please.
And so, she said, I got home, Isat down, put my feet up, I
said, Honey, could you get me aglass of wine?
And she said it was all I coulddo to get the words out.

(32:32):
then she said, Do you know whathe said?
And out we stopped breathing.
She said, he looked at me andsaid, red or white.
It was so nothing.

Yeah.

And it was everything to her.

Mm hmm.

And so to ask, for something you need or want.
And then for type four, it's,you know, fact over feeling,
when you hear the story.
Going up.
Stay with facts instead ofassumptions.
Because fours can get, takethings personally, and it's

(33:07):
because the feelings arecreating these stories.
Or stories are creating thefeelings.
Well, what are the real factshere?

Mm hmm.

Um, you know, and for five, the fives I work with,
you know, there can be a blindspot for fives.
To generosity.
And so, I encourage fives to saythank you at least three times a
day.
Because when I say thank you,I'm realizing someone was
generous to me.

Mm hmm.

Um, for type six, the type that, that will least
trust themselves, I invite themto keep a running list.
Make a, make a, an add to itevery day of the good decisions
they made, the smart actionsthey took, the successes,
because there's an amnesia,there's an amnesia Sixes have

(34:01):
about their successes, theirgood stuff, you know?

Mm hmm.

Yeah, you know all this.

I'm married to a six,

Okay, well you know it well.
And for seven, I remember aseven group that I led years ago
and one of the practices I saidnow, in this week, before we
return next week, would youdecide that you're going to
follow the agenda of another?
Not interrupting.
Don't tell them how to getthere.

(34:29):
Just whoever you're following,just follow.
And then we'll report back andsee what that was like.

Sounds like quite the stretch.

You know what?
It was.
It was.
Because sevens, as flexible asthey look, I think might be the
most inflexible type.
Because they're flexible withtheir own agenda and plans.
But, you know, Not flexibleenough at times to follow
another's lead, or to do itexactly like they want it.

(35:01):
Sevens want to make it theirown.
They'll always change something.
You know, I notice in workshopsI'll ask a specific question for
a repeating question orsomething.
And often they'll change thequestion.
So, um, we all have these littlequirks by type.
And we could, we can make fun ofour own type and selves, we

(35:24):
can't make fun of others.
But humor helps.
And to have a practice that youstay with for a while, to help
soften the pattern and wake up alittle bit more.

Yeah.

Because, you know, we're not, as I say, a lot.
We aren't in this earth schoolthat long.
And I'd like to wake up before Idie.
So I want to free myself fromthese limiting patterns so that
I can really be fully myself.
The freedom to be me.
In the book I call it, eachchapter is the power of claiming

(36:02):
for nine.
The power of accepting for one.
The power of being for typethree.
And power in the sense of whatit was, how it really was
defined, which is the power tobe.
Not to be able to.
And can we claim that power?

(36:22):
Can we take, take ourselvesback?

Yeah, it's so, it's such a challenge,
um, I'm wondering if we can skipback a little bit to type three,
cause I think I missed,

I think, I did miss it.

okay.

Thank you.
Oh my gosh, Steph, so sorry.
Threes, our beloved threes.
Well, you know, it's just such agood idea to check in with your
emotional state a couple timesor three times a day.
But it is that, um, moment ofstillness if, if, if a three, if
any of us really, can sit instillness.

(36:59):
Silence for two or three minutesand simply breathe.
It's like we get time back andour pace doesn't have to be so
rushed.
And at that moment to check inwith what emotional state is up
for you.
We're always in an emotionalstate.
And threes will outrun the heartand miss the emotions that have

(37:19):
a lot of information actually.
Thanks for bringing me back tothat.

I love that tip because it's something.
So I, about a year and a halfago started going to a local
Buddhist temple near me.
So like a Dharma center and Irush, rush, rush to get there on
time.
And I sit down, you know, I sitdown on my cushion and you know,
the meditation starts.

(37:45):
And it's like, I didn't even,this happens so frequently.
It's like, I, I wasn't evenaware that I wasn't really
breathing or that I wasn'treally.
Present, right?
And then I sit and I'm quiet andI just feel like this rush of
just calm.
And I'm like, whoa, you know,it's like, and I, I just forget

(38:07):
to, you know, I forget thatthat's available anytime.
Um, but it's such just a nice,pleasant feeling that I feel
like a lot of the time is soforeign to how I live my daily
life.

Yep.
All right.
Threes, listen up.
It's good advice.
You just offered stuff.
Yeah.
And you know, threes will freezebreath in the chest because it's
almost like even breathing getsin the way of doing.
And you're good noticing on yourpart.
Yeah.
Stillness.

Well, those are all so helpful.
Um, I think we'll probably do alittle blog post along with the
podcast and I'll, I'll jot allof those down so that people can
check back in on them.

And, and, and the greatest practice we can have is
the practice of presence.
And I just want to say that, youknow, there are two different
words here, present, and thenpresence.
And I can be present with you,and focused, and hear you, and

(39:13):
my body's right here, my mind ishere, but, you know, for a
certain types, the heart is theleast accessible brain.
So when I go receptive, when Ijust relax, I and allow, and I,
my heart comes online.
Now presence can arise and allthree brains are now accessible

(39:35):
to me.
And the tone gets softer and thebody's more expansive now.
and I think Russ Hudson saidthis at one of the IEA
conferences, but, and he just sosuccinctly put as he can do,
Type shows up when you don't.
And so this presence practice ishealing for all of us.

(40:00):
Yeah.
I grew up on the land and withhorses, and those two were my
teachers in presence.

I think animals can be such fantastic
teachers and I, similar to you,um, I interviewed somebody, one
to two people of each subtypefor my book.
Um, and so one of the fives, I,I interviewed a self
preservation five and she talkedabout how she grew up working

(40:31):
with horses.
And she learned through thatprocess that she needed to
recognize her body so that shecould communicate with the horse
and how as a five that made hergave her so much more access.
To her body.
And I was like, Oh, that's sobrilliant.
I think that more of us needsomething like that.

Steph, it's powerful, and I think every
young girl should ride a horse.
Because culture is not kind tous and our bodies.
We become, uh, objectified.
But horses get us in our bodies.
And every young girl, it's justthe best gift.

(41:12):
Thanks for saying that.

Um, I'm curious if you can share a
little bit about where ourlisteners can connect with you.
Um, so that they can grab yourbook.
I'm excited to get my hands onit.
So I'd love to hear more aboutthat.

Thank you.
So it's available for pre ordernow on Amazon or Bookshop.
And probably at a localindependent bookstore.
And it will be released onSeptember 3.
Um, you can also find links andthe book tour, which I have on
my website, which isalchemyworksevents.

(41:51):
com.
There's an author page.
And my book tour starts onSeptember 4th.
I'd love to have anyone come andbe a part.
And the guest writers, uh, wholive in that particular city
will join me and talk about whatit was like for them.
And then my Instagram, ofcourse, publishers want you to

(42:12):
have an Instagram account, whichwas pretty foreign to me back a
few years ago when this washappening.
But I'm at Sandra Smith AlchemyWorks and I, um, have
information about the bookthere.
But also, you know, I do aseries.
Right now I'm in the virtues ofthe types, uh, little snippets.

(42:33):
So that would be how to find meand learn more about the book.

Perfect.
That sounds great.
Um, so I have two finalquestions that I ask everyone.
Um, so first is tell me a bookabout a book that has helped you
refresh you or shaped you in thelast year.

This may have been more than a year ago, but I keep
this book out on my side table.
The Boy, the Mole, the Fox, andthe Horse by Charlie MacCasey.
He's an artist.
I can read that little book andI cry every time.

(43:16):
It's tender and it is simple andthe illustrations are simple and
beautiful and so it speaks rightto the heart in a sense.
There's a kindness about thebook, uh, and you know, you can

(43:36):
think of it as a children'sbook, but it really is for
everyone, especially for adults,I think.
Uh, what's real?
Yeah, what's real?
Poetry, I read poetry a lot.

Do you have any favorite poets?

It depends on my mood, but if I am feeling low, I
bring out Hafiz, the Persianpoet Hafiz, because he's so
funny.
You know?
He can start a poem with, Thefish and I will chat.
And my perspective's totallychanged.
Right?
Um, Mary Oliver's always helpfulto me.

(44:17):
And, um, I close my book with aRumi poem about allowing.
I mean, they're, David White'sgood, John O'Donohue, Denise
Levertov, um, yeah, poetry islife changing.

Stephanie Barron Hal (44:35):
Beautiful.
Okay.
Um, final question.
Um, tell me a piece of advicethat has really stuck with you.

I can't believe what just entered my mind, but
I'm not going to share that one.
Um, you know, Steph, I have somany teachers, and I've come to
learn that whoever is before meis a teacher.
And I remember David Daniels, wewere talking about all sorts of

(45:09):
things, but he said, Remember,when you're in reactivity, it's
because you're in pain, you'rehurting.
So whenever you see another inreactivity, remember, they're
hurting, and let that be acompassionate entry point.
Yeah, I think, you know, we getreactive when another's

(45:30):
reactive, but if we canremember, This is out of a wound
and just stay steady.
It changes everything.
And I wish, I wish that for allof us because we're so reactive
right now in our culture.
And you know, the Enneagram forme, it's just such a spiritual

(45:54):
map.
I don't know where my spirituallife would be without it, but
can you imagine who we would beif we're all standing?
in our holy idea or enlightenedspiritual perspective as I call
it.
In both and in oneness.
More than both and, it'soneness.
And I think when we can do that,when we take ourselves seriously

(46:18):
enough to do the inner work, wecan become compassionate
participants in our world.
rather than dualisticparticipants.

Well, thank you so much for joining me
today and sharing that tidbit ofwisdom and everything else you
shared today.
I think that our listeners willreally enjoy this episode.
And also I'm so excited, like Isaid, to get my hands on your
book.
Um, so I really appreciate yourtime and for sharing that with
me.

Thank you, Steph.
Thank you for your presencetoday.

Thank you.

Steph Barron Hall (46:56):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway

(47:17):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.

(47:38):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support from critscollaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on Spotify

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Transcending Type with Enneagram 8, Sandra Smith

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

All Episodes

Transcending Type with Enneagram 8, Sandra Smith

On Purpose with Jay Shetty