Episode 14: THE Enneagram Prison Project (10 Year Anniversary Episode)

Episode Transcript
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Clay Tumey (00:06):
Hi, my name is Clay Tumey and I am an ambassador for
Enneagram Prison Project. Todayis April 12 2022. And today, we
celebrate 10 years of EPP.
During these past 12 months,I've had the opportunity to sit
down and have a talk with manyof the people who've had a major
impact along the way with EPP.

(00:26):
If you've been following along,you know by now that 14 episodes
simply isn't enough to talk toevery person that we'd like to
hear from. And to that, I'mhappy to say again, that the
podcast will be returning for asecond season, and that should
kick off early next month. Moredetails on that later. For
today's episode, I travel onceagain to California and sit down

(00:47):
for a chat with the founder ofEPP Susan Olesek and her partner
and executive director of theproject. Rick Olesek. Fair
warning if you didn't alreadynotice this is a long episode.
Susan, Rick and I looked back atsome key moments in this first
decade of EPP and we didn't wantto limit ourselves by trying to
squeeze it all into one hour oreven two. Thank you for being

(01:11):
here. Thank you for listening.
And thank you for joining us aswe celebrate 10 years of
Enneagram Prison Project.

(01:39):
So these Oh, you have the namesof who

Unknown (01:42):
was there? It's not helpful. So

Rick Olesek (01:44):
some of the names.
Yeah, just because I had

Clay Tumey (01:47):
Irani. Oh, that was Burlingame. Right. Yeah.

They're your Rodney Owen was the one with Alex.
Alex. Yeah,

Clay Tumey (01:52):
that's the one where all the good pictures are from?
Well, I

was just I just figured I would put in there.
Some of the notes. The one thingthat of the interesting one
about the one in Fort Lauderdalewas I think that was the first
time you presented. And thenright on the back of the Fort
Lauderdale when she went andpresented it en t in Sylmar. And
if I remember correctly, there'sa really lovely picture in a in

(02:16):
a in a like thing they did in2011, where there's a picture of
you and David, kind of sittingthere. And I was I've always
thought to try to snap thatpicture. It's on YouTube, and
just kind of crop it out.
Because it's a nice picture ofthe two of them.

Clay Tumey (02:31):
So Fort Lauderdale in 2011. Is that when you went
on the news? Also on the news?
Yeah. Was that separate for you?
And you and David both on theright. Was that like, how was a
trip? Yeah, I've been on thenews before, too, but we're not
as fun broke.

Susan Olesek (02:51):
The news was with my high school best friend from
seventh grade in Hong Kong,Shannon cake, who is a reporter
there in South Florida. And Iwas going to be in town and I
was like, hey, Shannon, and thenwe cooked it up. And she went
way, way overboard toaccommodate and produce such a

(03:11):
special episode. And that wasDavid was adorable. And he was
really, he was really in hiselement.

Clay Tumey (03:19):
What all did, so did you contact her and you're like,
hey, I want to be on the newswhere you work? Or did she just
know you're in town? And how didthat all come about? I

don't, I don't actually remember. Kind of like
I just told you that she was intown. I was in town in her town.
And I had never met her kids orher husband or anything. So I
had one night where I got to seeher and then she didn't know she
didn't know what the Enneagramreally was. Turns out I think
she she picked that week thatshe related to three. And she it

(03:51):
was just amazing to watch herwork and her in her you know
business what she was up to andputting on her makeup and the
whole thing. And I remember itwas 150 degrees and like,
practically raining, so hot. AndDavid and I showed up and we
were trying to look nice, but wewere like stuck to our shirts.

(04:12):
And he showed up a little laterand he was so giddy like he he
hadn't done something quite likethat before. Of course I hadn't
either. But I just trusted Davidso much and I was terrified of
just saying the wrong thingabout the Enneagram and he just
came to life and then it made itall okay she she really brought
out the best in him was Dr.
David Daniels. Well, David is somany things to so many people to

(04:34):
me. David was one of my firstteachers. He was a mentor. He
became a colleague he andinvited me into so many places
and myself but really everyoneought to know that David is one
of the major developers of theEnneagram

Clay Tumey (04:52):
When did you that was an O when you go with the
date did you look these up Rickby the way, we should like do
the affair. So I'll start, likethe point of the podcast is to
tell the story of EPP and thefirst 10 years that we're now
celebrating coming up soon.
Today is April the 12th, whichis not today, but it's going to
be today. And other people hearthis. So it's 10 years, 10 years

(05:13):
of EPP, and there was some timebefore that, that we could talk
about. And then there's a lot oftime in the last 10 years to
talk about. And typically, thepodcast is me having the
opportunity to chat with anotherperson who's had an impact along
the way. And today, I get totalk to two people who've both
had impacts, we're just going togo ahead and understate that

(05:35):
real quick along the way. So whoam I talking to in whichever
order that you? I don't know ifI'll draw drew straws or flip
the coin. But who am I talkingto today?

Well, I'm Rick Olesek. And I'm the executive
director for Enneagram PrisonProject. And I have, yeah, I'm
really excited to be talking,and then be joined with Susan
who, of course, the founder ofEnneagram Prison Project, and
she can introduce herself

Clay Tumey (06:04):
also had an impact

also had an impact.

And being joined with Susan in more ways than
one, I think it's really fittingthat we're sitting here on our
loveseat Let the record show Isuggested the loveseat. And I am
the founder, of course, and alsoa guide, a board member, and I
fill in, I fill in where I canlots of things DVP

Clay Tumey (06:29):
what does it like to just be able to say the cool
sentence of I am the founder ofdot, dot, dot and then a cool
thing. Like EPP

Unknown (06:41):
that felt like anything to

you. It feels like a lot at this point, honestly,
and I don't use the word proudvery often, but I am proud of of
who we are and where we've comefrom, and all that we've all
that we've put in motion, allthat we've created, co created
together.

Clay Tumey (07:02):
And we can start anywhere we can go in any order
that you want. We have a list ofall, like some bullet points
that help us chronologically,but I'm curious. What was Was
there a situation or an instancethat gave birth to EPP? Was it a
gradual? Like over the course ofan X amount of time years or

(07:23):
whatever? Like where where didthis? Where did this come from?

I want you to talk about Megatron, Megatron,

Clay Tumey (07:29):
I'm happy. We can go there. That's that's actually at
the towards the end.

I mean, I think is there a lot of EPP thinking
there are places to start, likewhen I met David and those
things, those places where I wasfirst, of course, learning the
Enneagram inside of myself, butit has to start in prison where
it really did start. And thatwas when I had just barely
certified to teach the EnneagramI was teaching one class in my

(07:58):
living room and one in my localchurch and I got invited to
teach at prison entrepreneurshipprogram and in Texas. And I said
yes, right away. But I reallyhad no idea what I was saying
yes to. So, but I didn't, I'vetold the story many times I

(08:20):
showed up and stretched myselflike crazy just to get there.
And when I got there, I was justabsolutely blown away by the
humanity in the room, the peoplein the room were so, so excited
that I was there so welcoming,put me at ease, and we're so
happy to learn about themselves.
And that just that just beingreceived with so much

(08:41):
appreciation, adoration andfulfill I didn't even you know,
didn't even know. And that wasthe beginning of my own personal
prison because I didn't feelthat way about me. And I didn't
know what to do with people whoreceived me in that way. And
vice versa was totally true. AllI could see was the light in the
room and a bunch of people whodidn't feel that way about

(09:02):
themselves. And there we wereeach other's perfect mirrors.

Clay Tumey (09:05):
So what's so stressful about knowing that
you're going to prison? It's alittle different. I suppose when
you haven't broken a law to knowthat you're headed there. What
were you stressed out about? Whywas it stressful?

I think the most stressful thing for me at the
time and still to this day canbe just going into the unknown,
not having a plan, not knowingis it? Is it going to be am I
going to be okay? And in theabsence of a plan and the
absence of a guarantee that it'sgoing to be okay. When I'm not
really grounded, I fill in withall the all the worst possible

(09:39):
things that they might thinkabout me I might do to them,
that kind of stuff.

Clay Tumey (09:44):
Do you remember when she was telling you about this
idea to go to Texas and go intoprison and teach this stuff?

I do remember about it. I mean, it was a big deal,
right? It's a big deal. ForSusan had already gone in,
certified in the narrative andthen certified with EI and she
was wanting to teach. But nowall of a sudden, she's, you
know, catching a plane toHouston to go into, you know, a

(10:16):
prison. And I remember, but Idon't think that I think, I
think it was just kind of aforegone conclusion that we were
that that was going to happen,and that as soon as she was
like, Hey, this is what I'mgonna do. I was like, Great,
that sounds great. And, and Idon't, I don't think I really

(10:37):
understood all the pieces thatwere, you know, all the things
that were in motion at thatpoint.

Clay Tumey (10:45):
Part of what I usually say before we start
recording, and I'll just sayhere is that at any point, it's
it's not like a question answer,question answer. So it can go
this way to If you'll have anythoughts to share, or even even
memories that you fill in eachother's?

Well, I'll say here in this place that it was I
wasn't actually certified withEnneagram Institute at the time,
as soon as I finished mycertification with ein T. But it
was called at the time, Iimmediately signed up to start
taking courses at EnneagramInstitute, because I felt so
unsure of myself and my ownknowledge and my own self. And

(11:25):
so I don't know if you knowthis, but when I was, after my
first time, I went to Texas, andI got invited back. And I think
it was the second time or thethird time, because they were
recording the whole sessions, Ihad to produce a video for
Enneagram Institute. So I usethis for a video that I had in
Texas to send to this part ofyour teaching.

Clay Tumey (11:44):
It was part of my

certification.

Clay Tumey (11:46):
I didn't know that.
Oh, something.

I don't remember that at all. I totally remember

Clay Tumey (11:51):
that because of the feedback. I'm recording because
we recorded everything

right there. And I really wanted, you know how hard
it is to record yourself as anew teacher, whoever can do
that, especially, you know, allthose years ago. So it was
really helpful on a practicallevel. But I remember it
because, of course it was it wasa unique way to submit for
certification. But I rememberthe feedback I got was, you

(12:15):
spoke so fast, I don't even knowif they can understand you. And
I heard myself and I thoughtGod, what did I say you know,
was that that's how my nervescame out.

Clay Tumey (12:24):
So the feedback was when you after you submitted it
for certification, the the groupthat was certifying you or not,
did they certify you like rightoff the bat? Or did you have to
resubmit and do

Oh, no, they got me. Right off the bat.

Clay Tumey (12:38):
There's a fair chance that you teaching the
Enneagram in prison, that videothat you had, there's a fair
chance that that's the firsttime that that ever happened.

You think so?
Teaching the Enneagram in

Clay Tumey (12:49):
prison? Yeah. Well, I like the video recording of
that. It's probably probably thefirst time that's ever been
done. And

thus, cat has that recording with her. And then she
did all kinds of stuff there.

Clay Tumey (12:59):
Yeah. And cat is that's who that was your
connection. And PDP Yes,

the founder, Catherine Ward, now, Peter PPP.

Clay Tumey (13:07):
This is why this is why I say entrepreneurship
program program instead of PDPbecause I get excuse. I think I
said EPP I actually think Idon't know. Eep, Eep, Eep, Eep.
Yeah, you know me?

Well, I think I mean, I always give props to
cat, because she had that ideato bring the Enneagram into a
very interesting application.
And she was already doing suchamazing work with, with men
doing business for good turningpeople who had I can't do her
sound bite, but who had hotstreet hustle to do something

(13:42):
else? Yeah.

Clay Tumey (13:46):
Yeah, the people. I think what a lot of people might
not always realize at a glanceis that the people who succeed
in crime are very often very,very similar to the people who
succeed in business in general,it just so happens that one of
them is not allowed. And sopeople who you know, run, like
drug or drug organizations orother kinds of criminal activity

(14:07):
that are, they're likeorganizations, and they're
illegal, and they're not okay,I'm not like justifying it. But
that skill set is very usefulwhen you come out, and, you
know, not doing a pitch for themat all. But I'll just say that
when you get out of prison, it'shard to find work. And your best
bet oftentimes, is to eitherfind, you know, knuckle busting
work, you know, blue collarstuff that's not very fun, or go

(14:30):
into business for yourself ifyou don't have connections. And
so that's what that program wasaround. Was, was learning how to
get out and hopefully startingyour own business so that you
didn't have to pass a backgroundcheck somewhere else. And part
of the program. It was a sixmonth curriculum, and part of
that program one of the weeks tothe weeks, but one one of the

(14:54):
weeks very early on, we did acharacter assessment, and we it
was like a 360 review where yourpeers and other other people
give you feedback on how you areas a person, and all these other
things. And then the week afterthat is when they brought in,
who we called the Enneagram.
Lady. And that's when we startedlearning about personality
types. And you know, we're, thecharacter assessment was very,

(15:17):
it was painful. And it was, inmy opinion, very, very healthy,
like deconstructive, kind ofthing. And then all these
questions show up in our mindsand our lives like, we thought
we were good. But you know,we're really struggling,

can you speak to it just specifically the
character assessment? Whathappened for you, because that
is really relevant. It was likea primer for how you receive the
Enneagram. I think, like

Clay Tumey (15:47):
100%, I don't think that I would have been open to
hearing you, frankly. And that'sonly that's all on me. Because
what the character assessmentdid for me, by that point, I was
in my third year ofincarceration. And I'd already
been doing what I thought wasworking on myself. And it's,
it's unfair to say that I wasdoing nothing, but I was doing

(16:08):
something, I just wasn'tachieving the level of
development that I thought I hadbeen. And I didn't know anything
about the Enneagram. I just, Ijust knew that like, I'm a
better guy today than I was whenI before I got locked up. And so
all these patterns that had beenin my life of being a know it
all being like a jerk andarrogant, condescending, you

(16:30):
know, jacket, all these thingsthat are, you know, some people
would argue, are still here, bythe way. But they, I was I was
very proud at them at that time,that I had, quote, unquote,
gotten over it, and that I wasno longer this person than I was
for the first 30 years of mylife. And then the character
assessment showed me otherwise.
I don't know how I was so blindto

what do what did the character system assist
assessment show? Yeah,

Clay Tumey (16:57):
they literally fill out a form. And by they, I mean,
my peers, my classmates, theother graduates that are still
there. It's about 150 people.
And they part of it is literallyjust going through this list of
adjectives and saying what theythink you are both good and bad.
He's condescending, he'shelpful. It's very wise. Very
rude, you know? And there's nolimit to either. There's the

(17:20):
range. Yeah, it's all there. Andif you if the list if the word
that you want anything, you canyou can write it down.

So what was your biggest takeaway from that?

Clay Tumey (17:32):
I was still arrogant. I was still
condescending, I was still a Noat all, I was still rude to
people still very abrasive, andhow I went about things. And
yeah, I did know a lot. And Iwas very informed. And I was the
guy that a lot of people wentto, if they needed help, but not
necessarily the guy that theywent to, if they needed a

(17:53):
friend. And it totally took myself image that I had of myself.
And just, I just threw it outthe window. So I had all these
things that I thought I'd workedon all those all those words
that I just listed. I was Itricked myself somehow to
thinking that I was beyond them.
And it just wasn't, it justwasn't the case. I was still all

(18:15):
of those.

So perfect. Case in point. So you were my mirror
because I had a whole set ofother additives that I felt
about myself. And I had adifferent cover that I was
operating under. And that'sobviously what personality is.
And to go back to David for asecond. He was so excited that I
was going to prison. And hewasn't he was adorable about it.

(18:39):
And we were working on I was onthe planning committee for the
EA and T conference which washappening in Sylmar around that
time in 2011. So I had justcertified in 2009. And that's,
that's around that time. Iremember working a lot with
David. And he said to me, youdon't teach in prison and you

(19:00):
any different than you teach inthe church. And that always
stayed with me the way he saidthat. And I think intuitively
instinctively, that is how Iwant to teach and I also felt
like David knew how valuable andhow precious an audience I was
about to be in front of

Unknown (19:18):
and yeah.

Clay Tumey (19:22):
Do you want to talk quickly about Megatron? You
brought up Megatron earlier canyou want now?

Well, I just I just think that the Megatron thing.
If you I mean, Susan, you'resuch a great writer. And I
remember you writing those blogsand we were just talking about
those earlier today. And theblogs from when you first went
into prison. And the one of themwas you know, the second or

(19:47):
third blog if I remembercorrectly, was second blog was
about Megatron and how you hadbeen named Megatron. Which you
know, I'll let you tell thestory so

well I thought one of the cool things about working
with those guys I think thisalso just shout out to cat who
came up with this idea of isthat everyone had a sweet name.
And so people were what was yoursweet name? Clay?

Clay Tumey (20:08):
We've already mentioned that on a previous
episode, go find out. Okay, I'lltell you it's pumpkin pie.

That's right.
That's right.

Clay Tumey (20:15):
I just got the stare of Megatron

it's just a question.

Clay Tumey (20:22):
Goodbye Anna. Yeah, pumpkin.

I mean, pumpkin pie, right. And, and most people
have street names. So it'sobviously turning that whole
thing on that on its head. Andpeople would introduce
themselves with their name andtheir sweet name, and often a
funny little movement or motionthat went along with it. And I
just thought it was so it was soendearing. And I, it was quite

(20:47):
an I was unsuspecting. I thinkit was the second or third
time's my

Clay Tumey (20:51):
class. It was the second one I remember in crystal
clear. Okay, well,

I'll tell you how I received it. Why didn't you
set it up and say how it came tobe? What is it? What happened?

Clay Tumey (21:02):
So yeah, the sweet name is literally just a sweeter
version of the street name I do.
And I think you nailed all that.
And, and the way we would goabout giving each other sweet
names, like as a class. So itwouldn't be like one person
saying, Oh, your, you know,Taffy Laffy Taffy, or whatever,
you know, it would be in frontof the class. And it would be

(21:23):
like a collective effort. Sowith the guys, and we would do
this with guests, too. So as abusiness program, a lot of
executives would come in asguests, and we would have events
and all kinds of cool stuff. Andwe would give our guests tweet
names as well. We, with withwomen, they got tough names. So

(21:43):
the men got sweet names, and thewomen got tough names. And the
process was the same, we wouldask you a few questions. And by
way, they'd be the whoever theMC was, you know, that day one
of the guys in class, ask a fewquestions. You know, sometimes
it's obvious. So like, for me, Igot a big head. So I probably
got pumpkin pie just literallybecause of my pumpkin on top of

(22:04):
my shoulders, you know? So therewasn't there wasn't there was no
sweet name interview for me. Butso the the questions and this
and that. And the other and thiswas also after having taught
this was towards the end of theweekend after you'd already
taught the, the types of solike, it was different back
then. It was like a 12 hourcrash course it wasn't, like,

(22:25):
hours, two straight days. Yeah,it was a Friday and a Saturday.
And then towards the end of thatthere was like a little bit of a
party where we had like musicand you know, it was it was it
was kind of rowdy and just fun.
Yeah. And so and that that'swhen we we you know, it was it
was the MCS name was fast andfast was just asking you a few
questions, you know, thrown out.

(22:49):
You know, anybody have anysuggestions is that in the other
and Megatron is a character fromtransformers. And it's a very in
the way that you wrote aboutthis in your blog. I wish I wish
I had that in front of me.
Because it was it's one of myfavorite stories to read. And
yeah, so we decided on Megatronso you're Susan elastic, aka

(23:10):
Megatron,

ego maniacal transformer. That's what really
stuck with me. And I felt likedamn, I'm like I've arrived. One
of the guys. One of them.

Clay Tumey (23:22):
Got yourself a prison name. Yeah,

I just thought that ego maniacal transformer was the
funniest thing ever. So clever.
It was so clever.

Clay Tumey (23:31):
And that's when you know you really got a good
nickname. And the the lady whowas head of I think she had many
titles, HR and all these otherthings that she you know, in the
in the program, we called herMimi, but she also had a she was
like a grandmother. So shebrought cookies in and stuff but
we call her Sergeant slaughter.
That was her. That was her. Thatwas her tough name. So there

(23:52):
isn't that like the women gotall the best names. Like I'm
pumpkin pie. And I wouldn't Icould never have a cool name
like Megatron.

Well, I grew up with a sister named, nicknamed
Princess clean and I was bugface so I thought ego maniacal
transformer really flooded my

Clay Tumey (24:11):
first record. I like Megatron better than bug face. I
promise to only call youMegatron

turned on to bug.
But that whole beginning of thejourney really propelled me into
just so much passion for whatwas possible conviction for how
it can be done. And I loved mymy experience. I looked forward
to it. I had three little kids.
It was a big stretch to go everysingle time. I did that for

(24:39):
years, and then it stoppedabruptly. Yeah, and that was a
really important thing. It was abig moment to not be able to go
anymore and they changed theirmind changed their program and I
kinda got, you know, goteliminated or I don't know, I
didn't even have the adjectivefor it. And I I think it forced

(25:03):
me to do something insidebecause I knew this was a
calling, I knew this wassomething I was going to do
forever. And I had to figure outa different gigs. So I remember
trying to figure out how I wasgoing to get into a different
jailer institution around here.
And I talked about it for a longtime. And then finally, somebody
just said, why don't you justlike, well, what are the places
around you and I, I Googledjails and prisons, and there was

(25:23):
120 2.2 miles from my house. AndI think those numbers can be
assigned to the angels. And Ithought, well, that must be my
jail, that must be my spot. Andthat was only correctional
facility.

Clay Tumey (25:35):
I want, I want to say how I remember this in my
head, and you tell me if this isfair, or accurate or anything, I
remember exactly where I was,when I found out that PDP had
stopped using the Enneagram,they switched over to Myers
Briggs, or whatever theywhatever that's called. And I
was, I was so pissed, actuallycalled, I called the office, the

(25:58):
PDP office. And I was like,What? What the hell? My Mom,
listen, so I gotta edit myself.

It's gonna have to be bit later. But yeah, what
the?

Clay Tumey (26:11):
What, Why, like, this is this, that was an so I
got out in 2010. And then Ithink you thought you taught
through 2011. And then early2012 is when is when they said,
nevermind, basically. Andnothing happened. It wasn't
like, you know, just for therecord, it's not like you did

(26:31):
something. And they're like,well, we don't know. But we'll,
we'll get some other Enneagramteacher in here. It was like,
no, not no to, you know, to theEnneagram. And we're going to do
this business thing now, whichis what Myers Briggs is, I
think, and they were not open toreconsidering that at all. And I
was so angry, I was so pissed,because the value that the

(26:53):
Enneagram has, to me as a toolas an as an inmate, knowing that
I'm about to get out isimmeasurable. And I thought you
just hundreds of men who arecoming through your program, or,

or they opened the door exactly 1000s More, which

Clay Tumey (27:09):
is the second part of what I'm saying. And then now
10 years later, I can say, Damn,maybe that was like the thing
that said, do something bigger,do something that'll touch more
lives, and not just men, and notjust incarcerated people. So
that's, that's my, that's mystory that I remember it, as

(27:29):
now. And is that fair? Or isthat?

Yeah, I think that's I mean, that's accurate.
I, and I feel like I, I took theexperience with me. And I also
took the stories of some of themen and they were very generous
with me. All throughout, theyallowed me to write to them and
to ask them more about theirstories I I presented at, I

(27:53):
guess that was Long Beach.

Clay Tumey (27:55):
That's the one that I think Lance was saying that
Diane went to, that's the oneand he didn't go

and also Sylmar were and I was able to have
screenshots from the videos thatthey let me take they they audio
tape and videotape my as wetalked about my teaching, and I
got to tell the stories ofpeople who had really blown my
mind with what was possible withthe tool. And that was so

(28:21):
important. So I feel like I justhonor that program and
everything it opened up in me,it was never my idea to use the
Enneagram in prison. But I suregot a lot out of the the
invitation.

Clay Tumey (28:33):
That's one of the things that I took that I took
away from the first time that wechatted on this podcast on
episode two or three, I think itwas three, one, where I asked
like you you it wasn't thatyou've just had this calling to
prison. And then it was that theprison was basically saying,
Hey, want to come hang out.

I haven't I haven't had a calling to prison,
I have always been, you know,very true to type on a mission
for something. And I used to sayto save the world, that sounds
so.

Clay Tumey (29:02):
So a lot of world.
So a lot of

ego. But I wanted to have a purpose. I wanted to
do something purposeful. So I amnot surprised that I ended up
there. So

Clay Tumey (29:15):
catching. We don't have to go chronologically, but
it's there's certain points thatI want to hit. And the next
point I think is April 12 of2012, which is a very
significant day. Obviouslythat's what we're here we are on
April 12 10 years later. Whatexactly happened, Rick, on April

(29:35):
12 that we're celebrating?

Well, it's such a it's such a funny thing to be
celebrating. Because, you knowon April 11, Susan's no
submitted the you know, thecorporate paperwork to the state
and it was stamped on April 12.
So at that point, there wasthis, you know, this this
paperwork that was sent AMT bythe state that's like, Hey, this

(30:00):
is Enneagram Prison Project. Itwas actually it's actually the
Enneagram Prison Project. And,and then the next set of things
to happen, Susan had to go. Andafter the corporate paperwork
was done to figure out, you knowhow to turn it into a 501 C
three. And that took a couple ofyears for her to do that. So,

Clay Tumey (30:22):
so on on that day when they stamped it, and you
got notification that they haddone their thing? Was that just
like another normal day, like,Oh, that was cool. Or did was
that? Was that grounds forcelebration? At that point?

I think it was pretty pretty. Oh, my God, we
did it. We did we just did thisthing. And I don't I don't think
it was a an easy process alsowasn't like a super hard
process. I had a attorney whodid a lot of pro bono help help.
For me to get it filed. Iremember driving to his office
in Palo Alto and not knowingwhat the hell I mean, not to

(30:57):
answer a lot of these questions,and so much of that. Rick just
had a lot of just practicalbusiness know how and it wasn't
at all I was doing it by myself.
And it was a lot ofunderstanding of how, how that
kind of stuff might work. Andthen we we really kind of said,
we're gone or doing it.

Clay Tumey (31:16):
Somebody is wondering what kind of questions
were they like What's so hard toanswer? With the with the legal
stuff? Well,

the heart the hard part, I think as you're going
through a 501 C threeapplication is trying to define
what it is that you're going tobe doing as a nonprofit. You're
doing it.

And so back to whatever said, what exactly do
you do here? Well, we didn'tknow what

to say. But and so and the funny part about that is
that once it's filed, and onceyou submit it, then you have to
wait. And it was like two years.
As we were waiting, I was

waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. And then I
remember coming back from thisas for so filing, that's one
thing, we get the name and thenwaiting for the 501 C three tax
exempt status from the IRS is awhole nother thing. So I
remember getting that rightafter the IEA conference in in
Denver, where I met where Ididn't meet you, but where I
brought you where they met me.
Yeah, everybody else met you.

(32:14):
And I remember wishing we hadthat status before we got there
and then getting $1,000 donationcheck after our presentation.
And carrying that thing aroundwith me wondering what am I
gonna do with this and came homeand got the status and got a
bank account and finallydeposited that guy?

Clay Tumey (32:29):
What what was Denver all about? What happened there?
That was such a big deal. And Ican answer this question for
myself. But I'm curious whatyour memories are of that?

Was that 2014? Is that what the 2013 2013 2013 I
know, for me, it was the becauseall the conferences up until
that point, Susan would just goand I would take care of the
kids and Susan would go

Clay Tumey (32:53):
to the conferences.
And you were still working. Youweren't the executive director

that was not the executive director. I was still
working. And in, but Denver waslike the first time that I
actually went, I think that'sthe first time that I went to.
And so for me, it was it wasinteresting, because Susan's
sister lives in, you know,outside of Denver. And so we,

(33:16):
you know, we got a chance to seeyou see them and but it was
really there was like up onstage Susan, and clay and Elam.
And so, there's more here forSusan to talk about, I don't
want to.

But a couple of things led up to Denver. For me,
one, I had presented a couple ofdifferent times co presented and
I knew that the conference was abig deal. I I don't think
anything rivals the importantpart, which is that I was
bringing two people that I hadworked with in prison who are no

(33:54):
longer in prison, who wereworking with the Enneagram in
their lives, and that the ideaof what I had was a reality. I
said, Let's go to Denver. And sohere we are. So Clay, I think
I'll start with you. And I'dlike to just know, how are you
for time? I'd like to know ifyou could tell us like how is it
that you identified yourself asa five? Well, that's the big

(34:18):
thing that I think happened andit happened. It was happening
but it was something that otherpeople got to experience. And
leading up to that I really itwas so important to me to have a
film of some kind that wouldsort of tie this together
because I think media like thatis so compelling. And I had gone
to I've gone back to Texas whereyou and Elam and another person

(34:41):
from the program we're livingand set I and we set up a time
to do a film shoot and it was anafternoon and Joey's house and
Joey was just such a magiciansuch a beautiful filmmaker so I
we did the shoot. It was It waseventful, and we came back. And

(35:03):
I remember getting the filmwhile we were in the hotel
pretty much like we had not seenit. And or we had just seen it
you had in the hotel and inDenver, but you you had not seen
it. But we had just received it.
And from its final edits off thehot off the press,

and it was literally going to be played in
the in your, in the presentationpresentation. Yeah.

And I remember standing in the in the hotel
room, and you literally justrolled off the plane. Elan was
there a little bit before you.
And we sat in a dark hotel room,because I don't know, it was
just we wanted to have the filmthat had the impact. And we
stood there and we put it infront of you. And you cried. I
mean, it was like it was it. Itwas real. It was real. And we

(35:49):
kind of did our little huddleand said, We're gonna go talk to
everybody and see how this goes.
Let's come on up for you.

Clay Tumey (36:01):
I remember thinking y'all have lost your damn mind.
Like it was it was so I was notprepared for how big that was. I
was fine. Talking about my pastmy history. I was fine. You
know, on the inside, we didpanels, you know, I talked about
a lot of things. And I thinkgoing to Denver was it felt big.

(36:26):
And I think I didn't realizeuntil that video like, like
people are about to know, a lot.
And I didn't I don't think Iwould have signed up if I
realized that it was gonna bethat significant. I don't, I
don't, I don't think I was readyfor that. And at that point, it
was too like important to backout of, and I have such a

(36:47):
history of backing out. I justquit everything. And so it
wasn't, it wasn't an option.
Like, logistically. And alsojust personally, I didn't want
to do that. But I it wasemotional. Yeah. It was
uncomfortable. It wasn't, it wasIt wasn't like, it just felt

(37:12):
massive. It felt like a bigdeal. I also, you know, from I
remember, Ilan, and I weretalking about this in the room
and stuff, like, we felt really,I don't want to speak for him, I
felt really out of like, Ididn't like a fish out of water,
you know, around all thesepeople who've paid all this

(37:33):
money to just come to aconference, like we didn't
belong, so to speak. And Iwasn't sure how it would be
received, the video was amazing.
But there's a difference betweenseeing people on a screen and
having them breathe the same airthat you're breathing, so I
wasn't sure if people would bescared of us if they would feel
dangerous, or if they were feelwould feel like we were
dangerous. And it was a lot todeal with. Because it's it's

(37:57):
it's unsettling to think thatyou're gonna be vulnerable in
front of people who might bescared of you. It's just, it's
bizarre to explain. And, youknow, 10 years later, you know,
it's, you know, actually nineyears later now, from that
event, I'm, it's funny, it'skind of funny to think about it
because I was worried about alot of stuff that that just

(38:19):
didn't happen just wasn't

just the entire, it couldn't be more opposite
happened. Right? Yeah.

Clay Tumey (38:27):
And the like the number one memory I think that I
have of the whole, there's a lotof good memories from that
weekend, there's this countlesswe could do hours on just how
many good memories I have fromthat. I think the most powerful
or even significant memory forme was after the panel. Like

(38:47):
they lined up to the side of thestage to ask questions. I don't
know if you remember, like allthat. But when the panel was
done, we talked with cried,we've done all this stuff. You
know, Elan hit me at one point.
I told him don't ever hit meagain. And everybody laughs So
success there people left. Andthey lined up for questions. And

(39:08):
some someone asked me a questionaround parenting. And I thought,
first of all, I'm just a kid,like I was in my 30s I wasn't
literally a kid. I was 30. I wasa weak shy week or two shy of my
34th birthday. And I just andand her son, who she was asking

(39:28):
a question about was like, notthat much younger than I was.
And I thought I'm so notqualified for this. But I also
thought, I can totally answerthis question. And I remember
thinking like this, this is oneof the most important moments
I've ever had as somebody who'stalking because I could really

(39:49):
fuck this up and say somethingthat she will take as the gospel
and go try to implement thisidea, and it backfire like it
was it was Scary. And I wasalso, I was also sure that, that
I that I knew what to say, itwas really bizarre and there was
a lot of that afraid to say it,but know that it was right. And

(40:09):
that creeps up sometimes nowstill just because life. And and
it's better now. But early on itwas like, I don't know about
this. I do know, but I don'tknow.

I think that the another place that I could have
started to talk about like wheredid this all begin is when I
learned the Enneagram which wasin a parenting class. And I
would say the basic foundationof our curriculum. Our is a lot
of what I learned in that firstclass, how to take emotional
responsibility, we had a methodcalled the Gordon method, Thomas

(40:47):
Gordon was a call a colleague ofCarl Rogers, and this very, very
old method was about reallyactively listening and, and
trusting ourselves and notetaking responsibility for our
lives. And so much of that justcomes up for me, as I hear you
take fielding a parentingquestion as a formerly
incarcerated person at aconference, people have probably

(41:09):
never spoken to somebody who'sbeen in prison before. And, and
you trusted yourself. And so Ithink what was so powerful about
that, for me was, I still waslike, am I going to remember all
the stuff about the five I wasstill at that place. And it was
the least important thing. Themost important thing was there

(41:29):
was a container of trust thatwas so deep between us. And I
remember you said, You've gotcarte blanche asked me anything,
what you just said is veryimportant that unless I trust
the source of the question, I'mnot going to tell you so there's
something about the trust?

Clay Tumey (41:44):
Absolutely. And like I've we've discussed this
several times. And, and, andSusan has, she has a blank check
as far as what questions thatshe asked me and, and a phone
call or whatever, because I knowthat her I know her heart. I
know her intent. And and thatcovers everything. And it can be
a very personal, very specificquestion. And you have a very,

(42:09):
you have the key as far as asfar as, as far as I go. And
yeah, the intent matters andknowing where you're coming from
matters. And, and, and with usspecifically. I know that.

And I appreciate that. I felt like so it was such
as so generous. It gave me suchpermission. I didn't feel like I
had to ask the right question. Iknew you would just take
whatever I asked. And you did.
And you leveled people who werethere. People were at the end. I
remember. We played the film.
We're so excited about the film.
And then there was a glitch likeI hadn't fully downloaded or
something. And it was one ofthose Ah, shit moments. But it's

(42:47):
so didn't matter because we'vestarted again, back from the
beginning. And no one moved. Noone got up to leave. No, I was
like minutes. It was a spiritualmoment. And then when it was all
over, there was just silence.
And then there's like a standingovation for what people had just

(43:08):
sort of downloaded. And Iremember Klaus, a lot of people
probably know Klaus Type Eightfrom Denmark, I remember him
sitting in the front row, I'dnever had met him at the like
the pre party is the firstperson I met. He's sitting in
the front row sobbing, sobbingface in his hands. And he just
came to life after that so manyI connected with Ross after

(43:30):
that, whom, of course I knew.
And I remember having myforehead to forehead with rest
and embrace. And I just feltlike, oh my god, a lot of a lot
has my back. It's not any one ofus.

Clay Tumey (43:41):
I remember thinking that was good that there was not
another presentation for verysoon after us. There was some
time to mingle. And there was somuch he had to clear the room.
Well, yeah, eventually.

It was I think, if I remember correctly, it was
both it was that we had to clearthe room in about half an hour.
But it was actually such a, itwas a long time that we all sat
in that room. And it was so itwas like it was like a space. I
also remember in thatconference, and I don't know if
we can ever go back and find allthe old footage. I remember we
actually interviewed a bunch ofpeople Enneagram folks about

(44:19):
that presentation, we shouldprobably go find that we have

Clay Tumey (44:22):
that. If we can find it. We can cut it into this. We
can find it between now and likea week

later. Yeah, that's it. It was just it was
interesting up but I'll tell youthe funny thing that I remember
about that conference. I mean,the presentation was incredible.
The container was incredible.
People were you know, reallythere with the energy was was
awesome. And funnel and in afunny way. The thing that like
first popped in my mind was atsome point to let off steam you

(44:48):
were like, I need to go drive.
And I was like, Okay, I'll gowith you. And the two of us just
drove a big loop around Denver.

Clay Tumey (44:57):
Something of the gods there was somewhere I drove
or that had like blam of theguy, we drove all the way do we
drive with somebody with thatplace?

It's garden. Far away, we drove all the way down
there and then drove backbecause we're like, we just got
to blow off. So

Clay Tumey (45:13):
I gotta get out of this building. Because my I'm
about to explode with, right?
All this pressure.

Right? And it was a pretty, it was a pretty far
drive. And the two of us justsat with the windshield time and
talking.

Clay Tumey (45:23):
Yeah, it's worth mentioning. That's like, I'm
pretty sure that's the firsttime we've met that moment. But
that weekend, yeah, we've neverhung out, right.

And I remember Rick and I went on vacation
right after that, in Florida,right with our friends. And we
had all these, all theseFacebook requests. And people
were um, we just didn't evenknow if we had a Facebook page
or anything at that point. Butwe were, we were like, God, some
something about this is so muchbigger than than just this,

(45:51):
this, you know, one event.

Clay Tumey (45:54):
So that was summer of 2013. Yes. And what happened
in the next two, and I knowthere was another conference in
2014, that we went to anotherbig deal. But in those 12
months, between conferences,what all what all happened.
Everything detailed list rightnow.

Well, if my memory serves, and my memory is faulty,
I believe that Susan taught herfirst class in in Elmwood in
2014. And her first class was inDecember of 2014. It might have
been December of 2013, andJanuary of 2014, I think that

(46:34):
actually was so just justJanuary of 20, or December of
2013, into January of 2014. Andthat was the class that had Tom,
Papa, and Alex and Vic. And Imean, there was a whole slew of
people from that class thatreally had br had had huge

(46:54):
impacts.

And being in that facility is where I really began
to put together an actualcurriculum, I had been teaching
the Enneagram in these 16 hourintensives. But we had to start
breaking it up into weeklymodules. And we didn't use the
word module at the time. But wehad, we had to start having our
own approach. And that took agood couple of years. Before we

(47:18):
we could find our way with that.
Another thing that was inimportant during that year was I
started to want to understandmore about incarceration
worldwide. And there was amoment where I, I wanted to go
abroad, and I had a trip, Ithink I was in Denmark and
Norway, and maybe that was it.

(47:41):
And I remember that Susanne Dionsubstitute taught my class with
David Daniels. And I don't thinkeither of them ever expected to
be in jail. They were sort oflike cheering on the sidelines
saying, like, we believe in you.
But I was like, no, come on, inlike, this is great. And here,
you're gonna love my students.
It was like, No, it was a nobrainer to me. And I just

(48:03):
remember how how impacted bythat David was and how he he
started to say, then the thingsthat I was, I was feeling so I
felt from, you know, above,because I put David on such a
pedestal and and I still do,that he saw the potential for,

Clay Tumey (48:23):
you know, how much.
I wonder. And this is a littlebit of an aside, but I'm
curious, what do you get? Arethere like certain questions
that people ask you before theygo in for the first time to
teach that like things thatthey're, whether it's concerns
or curiosities or whatever? Arethere some standard things that
people typically want to beplaced upon? Before they go in?

I don't know that there's a standard set of
questions, I can kind of tellpeople who are more nervous or
not. I give people a lot of playby play so that I just think
more information is better. And,and I think there's also a part
that I withhold, because I don'tthink you can express how it
will feel when you meet humanbeings who are just like your

(49:10):
brother, who are fascinatedabout the Enneagram and can tell
you all these things aboutthemselves using the tool who
are sitting there and stripes orsomething, you know, orange, and
I like people to have that. Thatmoment where their head is
spinning a little bit. I don'twant to change that moment. I
want people to come in raw andthat's the part that's

(49:33):
transformative.

Clay Tumey (49:35):
David has one of the greatest quotes, I think on on
the topic, and he was sittingright there. And I will go find
it and cut that in if it's okay.
But where he says,

David Daniels (49:48):
I see the future of the Enneagram Prison Project
is expanding and expanding andbeing very successful. treat
prisoners just as human beings,not as another class, lower
class of citizenship, not ascriminals. Yes, people who have
committed some crimes, and treatall human beings with the

(50:09):
equalness of openness. And it's

Clay Tumey (50:11):
such a common ex con like I've, I'm the guy that he's
talking about, and it still hitme like, damn, I don't think
I've ever done that. Andfrankly, I've been vocal about
this, I still struggle sometimesto see past the crime. It's
hard. It's not, it's not an easything. It's not automatic for a
lot of people. So I liked thatyou don't give them a warning.

(50:32):
I'm paraphrasing all that youjust just let it just go. Just
jump

in. What was happening for you, Rick, when
that class was going on? Andwhat do you remember from that
time, because I remember makingthe kids lunches and trying to
figure out when I could put theclass because I had to get my
first grader and and to get mysixth grader and I had the high
school, they're starting and,and you were working a very
intense job, what was happeningfor you at that time,

I think what was happening for me was, I was with
all of the activity, and all thethings that were going whether
it happened to be the stuff thatI was doing at work, or happen
to be all the stuff that washappening in the family. This

(51:19):
was just like this added thing.
But it was, but it brought suchlife to you. And when you would
come back, it would be it wouldbe it would be a touchstone for
me like oh, look, there, thereis more to this life than
working a high stress job. Thereis there is there is a I mean,

(51:41):
you would just come back so litup. And I remember us sitting
around, you know, dinner tables,or after putting the kids to bed
or after the kids would kind ofgo in different spaces that we
would talk and me catching upwith my day was like, Yeah, I
had a lot of meetings. Andyou're and then it was and then

(52:02):
I would turn it to you and saywhat happened for you. And you
would, you would light up and hewould talk all about the things
that were happening in theclassroom. And so I was I think
I think I was living a littlevicariously

Clay Tumey (52:15):
how much how much time after that. Were you no
longer living vicariously?

I started as the executive director in August of
2016.

Clay Tumey (52:25):
There was still a couple years then yeah. Like,
almost a full two years, two or

three years. Yeah.
So I may have been carrying you.
But I think Vic and Alex werecarrying me because I was so
inspired by what I saw. And Iwas hearing about people, you
know, who'd spent 26 yearsbehind the walls who've been you
know, labeled a career criminal,and I was seeing, especially

(52:50):
just at that time member, whenAlex finished the class, and he
was sent to prison, and I Icouldn't believe that this
person I had completely fallenfor I couldn't I didn't know if
I was gonna see again. And Iremember just the light and VEC
and seeing how, how much he wastaking on how quickly he was
changing. And I was trying tokeep up with like it was blowing

(53:13):
my mind, then what do we do whenVic gets out? Because he can't,
he can't not be supported. Andwe didn't know what we were
going to do. But I remember thatwas that was such a significant
year because I at the dinnertable with my kids. And Rick, I
just, I'm sure I asked you firstbut I said what do you think
about? You know, one of mystudents that I think I just

(53:35):
couldn't say Vic at that point,because he was at dinner time.
name at the table. He's gonnacome and stay here for a few
days. And they just did my kidshave the Okay, what do you know?

And that was December 23 24th. of 2014. So it
was a year later. So literally,he started in December of 2013
with the first classes andinterviewing classes and classes
and classes. And then he got outin December of 2014. And I think
somewhere in there. There was another conference too, but

Clay Tumey (54:07):
where did where did he stay when he was here?
Because most I don't know ifpeople know this. There's
literally a halfway house says Iuse the air quotes, which is the
coolest name ever for for aguest room?

Because it's a little tough shed. Yeah, it's
pretty cute in the insideeveryone. It's pretty huge. It's

Clay Tumey (54:23):
cozy as hell. But there's no bathroom, no
bathroom. It's a shed that'sbeen turned into a sleeping
quarters.

It's the halfway house because it's halfway
between the House and thechickens. Yeah.

Clay Tumey (54:34):
And there's another one that's the hen house but the
halfway house and there's it'sthere's a sign on it. Right.
That's halfway house that he didthe did Vic's day. He stayed
there. halfway house. Yeah, hedid the best.

That's a big story to tell. But I mean, it was so
special that he was willing totrust us and that and that and
that he came right and that wasthe beginning of a I was like a
continuation of something thatwas I had a friendship already
there. And then he was family.

Clay Tumey (55:03):
He told that on a previous episode where he got
out, and actually, you know,kind of like a Hollywood type
moment there where he had achoice to make, because you were
in the parking lot when he gotout. And other people were in
the parking lot also that hecould have gone with. And it
was, you know, the fork in theroad, you know, metaphor, I
suppose, except it was literal,it was, like gone with.

And the other thing that's cool about that is
remember the $1,000 I got at theconference, you know, the years
before, that was just sittingour bank account, we didn't know
I was gonna do with that money.
And it was from Rick Benson. AndRick was running recovery
programs in Arizona at the time,and he really loves the
Enneagram of another eight. Andhe said, when he gave me that
check, he, you know, I'm such asucker for the eights, I just,

(55:47):
yeah, really remember himwalking up to me. And he said, I
really love what you're doing.
And here's $1,000. And I wantyou to send me one of the men
from your program, and they getout and I'll give him a bed and
a place to be and, you know,I'll, I'll, I'll have him. And I
would like for him to teach myother residents, the Enneagram.

(56:11):
And when you're done, I want youto send me another one, and send
me more. And I was like, okay,and then I thought, I don't know
how in the world. And then Dickgot out. And I knew that I had a
life with three little kids. AndI didn't want anybody else
living with me, not just Vic,but I wasn't up for somebody to
move in forever. And I also knewI wanted someplace where he was

(56:32):
going to be safe. And so Rickand and Vic connected. And Rick
said, sent come on over, gottena ticket to Arizona, and I took
him to the airport. I mean, he'dbeen out a week or so, so brave
avec. And I remember sort ofstanding going through the line,
because I went all the way asfar as I could insecurity

(56:53):
because I wasn't sure you getthrough. I didn't know how that
all worked. He didn't have alicense. He had a piece of
paper. And he's literally aboutto show his piece of paper. And
then I was afraid that they'regoing to search and what are
they going to do? And Irealized, I don't even know if
the UK has any money. It's likefifth Germany money. And he's
like, No. And it's like, that'show I, I remember when I was 12.

(57:16):
And I was going to Italy for amonth with my dad at the
airport. He's like, Yeah, anymoney, like, No. And he's like,
gave me some money at theairport. So almost exact same
scenario. And I was like, I fitthe mold in my purse, I had like
50 bucks cash. So I take this.
And he just did. And I mean,just the amount of the places of
trust. And then he went off andVic, Rick and got him set up in

(57:37):
a place and Vic got into Vic wasstones over and long since
handle that. But then he gothimself into a really good job
situation for a while and Istarted to realize this village
aspect of what we were doing, Ineeded someone else bigger than

(57:58):
me and Rick had something thatwas really beautiful and needed
at the moment.

Clay Tumey (58:05):
I can tell you flying as someone who has been
recently released from prison,it's not it's not super
comfortable. I flew the day Igot out and flew home from from
Houston, I didn't know thatabout I didn't know that about
him not having an ID yet I usemy Person ID to fly. It's at
least the Texas ideas. I couldstill use it to this day if I

(58:26):
wanted to. And I didn't knowthat about the money. That's a
fun detail. It's like all thethings that like these tiny
little details that I justdidn't know

and also that you and the boys took Vic kick
Creek.

We were I had it was a Sunday or something and I
was gonna go out

this week between when he was when he was just out
and he was getting his hispaperwork and

his paperwork in order so that he could go to
Arizona. And I was going to takethe kids golfing at a nine hole
course down in San Jose. And itwas our my kids and it was our
friend the Roscoff kids. And,and I was like well, Vicki want
to come and he's like sure, Iguess. And so, and I'm like

(59:15):
well, and at this particularplace, it just converted it had
golf, but it also had what'scalled kick golf. So you could
show it like had set up thesedifferent, you know, other holes
on the holes. And so here weare, it's me and Vic and and a
bunch of kids. Yeah, I mean itwas probably like five kids

(59:37):
running around a golf course.
Right kicking ball kicking theballs down the fairways and
trying to kick them into theseand it was it was a nuts. Vic
Vic it just rolls his eyes whenI talk about that.

Clay Tumey (59:51):
I've never heard this story so so how did Vic do?

I think Vic just stopped kicking the ball. He was
just like you No, it was. And infact, I think I stopped as well,
because I realized that was justreally it was just for the kids
and the kids were just havingfun.

Susan Olesek (01:00:07):
And that's the way Vic's always roll with our
family. He's just always like,sure, whatever. And he'll say
yes to it. And that's how he's,that's how he's been. So
Beloved.

Clay Tumey (01:00:17):
Yeah. I want to keep going. We have so much more to
talk about, oh, my God. And Ijust unless you're done, no,
we're definitely not. We're anhour in and I just want to make
sure that we're okay. Likephysically, do you want to stand
up stretch? Go anything good onwater, you know, have a cup
glass of water over there.
Right? Yeah, good. So the nextconference, there were a few
like the first few years, theconferences all seemed like a

(01:00:40):
big deal. Like Denver was a bigdeal. The next year was like a
big deal. I always felt like

Rick Olesek (01:00:47):
the next year Susan was the end note speaker at a
San Francisco. What does thatmean? That meant that's when she
when you always have a keynotespeaker. And then you have an
EndNote speaker, when thekeynote speaker would start the
IEA global conference off, andthen you have all the different

a whole weekend worth of classes, classes, and

then you had the everybody to come together for
the EndNote. And so Susan gaveher an EndNote speech or
speaking on that show in 2014.
So

do you remember that?

Yeah. Remember that? Well, I remember being
asked to do it. And I was askedto do it at the conference
before which is with you andElam that we were just
discussing. And it was at thevery end of that conference
where somebody approached me.
And I just burst into tears,because it had been such an
intense emotional weekend. And Ithought like, really? And then I
thought, yeah, really. And so Iremember I remember preparing

(01:01:43):
for it, and Suzanne Dion. And Iused to sit in one of our hotel
beds and go over our notes. Andshe would be working the slides
that we'd created behind meduring the presentation. And she
always just had a beautifulcadence with that. And I
remember practicing and tryingto figure out what I wanted to
say and and finding some reallyevocative, provocative things

(01:02:08):
that I, I was that were on myheart. And I was scared to I was
scared to go there. And Iremember making a choice that I
just said, Well, here's a lamb,I'm going to crawl all the way
out on it. And I'm just going tosay what's on my heart because
that was real. And that's what

I remember. Got me with water my mouth. What did
you What did you talk about?

One of the things I talked about in that and note
was the influence of KenHartman, on me. And Ken Hartman,
as someone who was introduced towhen I was when I was trying to
figure out who knew how to teachthe Enneagram in prison, I was
introduced to Diane Panola, whois one of the who had, I felt

(01:02:57):
like Diane was the real dealType Eight. She had been. She'd
created a written a book,created a program around it and
was delivering it in a women'sprison in Chowchilla. And I was
so impressed. She's who I firstpresented with it before all the
other conferences. And when Imet Diane and Lance. And she

(01:03:22):
introduced me to this bookcalled Mother California, the
story of redemption was writtenby Ken who was serving a life
without the possibility ofparole sentence. And he'd been
in for something like 30 yearsat the time. And I read that
book, and I read it again andagain. And I was it really blew

(01:03:43):
my mind. I had night, I don'tread books, really front end,
and I don't read them twice. Andthen I read a wrote to him, and
he wrote back, and I got intothis long correspondence with
cannon. And all of the thingsthat were happening in me, this
quickening that was going onwith the project as I was seeing
the power of the work, the workwas having a lot of impact on

(01:04:04):
me. And I was realizing more andmore things about myself
spiritual things about myselfstructural things about myself
defense's defense systems were,were falling away, I was
expanding who I wasn't who andwho I understood myself to be in
the world in my marriage, as aparent, and I was I had
boundaries. I wasn't disclosingall of this to Ken, but I was

(01:04:26):
unfolding the themes as in ourcorrespondence and he was having
his own process and he was neversupposed to get out. And as I
read and reread his book, thingswere occurring to me and so I
wove that into my EndNote. Andit was, it was so important
because he was so important tohow, how the work was an it was

(01:04:49):
complex because Ken was never mystudent Ken had his own
transformation had nothing to dowith the Enneagram and he's
still not an Enneagram fan, ornot not a fan of the Enneagram
it's just not has ever been histhing and I NS but it was
important to me to put myself inthe, in my own non EndNote. And,
and part of my ongoing work inmy life has been to include

(01:05:10):
myself in the story of what'sgoing on, I think it's really
easy to see the beauty in you,and all the students that we get
on the inside and all the peoplethat come into EPP, but I, I
continually have to work andremember to include myself. And
so standing up and taking upspace to do the note, as I did,

(01:05:31):
and let it have its way with mewas was significant.

How was it received?
I remember I was there. But howdid you hear much like beyond
that, like the people start justlike beating down the door,
please come speak at ourconference or teach in our
prison or anything like that?
What was the what came afterthat?

Well, I don't even know how to what to say here.
I'm looking at Rick,

I have some things to say.

Why don't you go first? I always helped me find
my way back. Well,

I think that there was there it was. So up until
that point, up until Susan gavethat talk. I think there was
things inside the Enneagramcommunity that were were coming
to life and and there was a Ifelt like there was I don't know

(01:06:27):
how to say this. So I'll justsay it this way. It felt like
there was kind of a couple ofdifferent two camps. And one of
the camps was, you know, what agreat, what a great place and
experiential way that theEnneagram is being brought into

(01:06:50):
the world. And another one was,have we heard enough about the
about about prison? We've talkedabout it now for three or four
years have we heard enough? Andso I feel like there was both
those both of those camps werekind of happening. And it was it
was it was an interesting thingto kind of witness as as so I'm,
I'm kind of almost kind of anoutsider of in the Enneagram

(01:07:11):
community. But I you know, Idone my own narrative tradition
stuff. And I'd gone to a lot ofconferences, and we're now at
Kotla, these couple conferences,but I was noticing it and I was
like, Huh, that's such aninteresting.

Would you hear this directly? Or would you just hear
people talking about it?

I just think that it was just like it was? I don't
know, I'll ask Susan what shethinks if I'm, if I'm way off
off base here.

Well, we did hear it directly. We did hear it in a
way that was like, So what doyou what are you wanting to
present and what's new? And, andso we were taking, I mean, it
was always me. So but it was itwas a we were collaborating
before I would speak about it.
We spoke we brought inambassadors, and then we brought
in families of the ambassadorsand we brought in

families of people are impacted by incarceration.

The whites were so impactful and Elam his daughter
came in and spoke. And westarted to talk we started to
bring in John Felipe, who was itwas such an expansive idea to to
know that. This idea, thisdivision that started in a
little, you know, Texas prison,and then in California and then

(01:08:24):
enter John Felipe, who was theequivalent of a

warden, he was a warden at the

Unknown (01:08:37):
end, I'm trying to think of the name.

He was he was delivering the Enneagram to
wardens, and above, in all ofBelgium

are wardens and staff. Right? So by legal was
lieutenants, and above

tenants and above.
And he had, he had a vision tobring the Enneagram to all of
corrections. And he wanted toinclude the detainees, as he
called them. I hadn't metjauntily before, but we talked
on Zoom, and then we met inperson. And so just the
expansion that was possible withthe these were all of the, you

(01:09:13):
know, future co presenters thatwas I was doing different
conferences with so in my mindwhen we started to hear that
like, well, is this you know, isthis what you're Is this the
same theme that you're bringingkind of the same panel with more
formerly incarcerated people? Tome, I felt like people are not
understanding that. What a vastand overwhelming epic problem

(01:09:36):
incarceration actually is, andit won't go away by having three
little presentations. This islike we had so much more to do.

In the first, the first conference where we were
in Denver in 2013. There wereplenty there was a lot of people
in there, but there were plentyof empty seats. That could have
been filled up. And then withina couple of years, there weren't
enough seats there were peoplejust standing around. So clearly
people, like wanted to hear moreabout it. Right? That's, that's
part of why I found I rememberhearing like, like, maybe not

(01:10:13):
everybody's such a fan andthinking, why we're like, it's
people. It's so so many peopleare gone. And they're, they
don't get the freedom to justsay, Okay, nevermind, after a
few years. I don't know. I'mglad that got brought up because
I don't I don't ever I neverknow how to bring that topic up.

(01:10:35):
But I think it's interesting totalk about and to hear about,
and also did it, did it not goaway? That's the wrong phrase.
But did did people come aroundand realize that it's actually
worth talking about, like allthe time? And it doesn't?

I think it's nuanced. I think that there was
a, and I think what washappening actually, was the
Enneagram community through theIAEA was actually shifting. And,
and it was not as insulated, asit had once been. And so it was

(01:11:11):
starting to end. And there werethere were folks that that were
kind of rebelling against that.
And it was just an interestingtime to look, we'll have them
rebel against that. Because,because there was like Susan was
saying, there's so much to say.
And every one of those talksthat Susan would give with

(01:11:33):
different people on stage. Theywere vastly different than the
talk that was before it. Andyet, I would still hear just as
a fly on the wall in differentplaces. Oh, you know, it's just
I have five different talks. Ican go talk to I can go listen
to Enneagram Prison Project. Oh,yeah. I've already already heard
that one. Right. So it was kindof like, We're just there was

(01:11:56):
this under, like, in theEnneagram? You know, IEA, go,
Oh, I'm just gonna hear thesame, the same spiel again. But
it

had a helpful effect on us. Because what it
did was it compelled me to wantto bring more of our curriculum
into the presentations to helppeople to understand what we're
doing. And I think people hadthat question. And so at one
conference, we we brought in theACE questionnaire, an adverse
childhood experiencequestionnaire is a big part of

(01:12:26):
how we help people to understandwhat has happened to us. And,
and so we gave it out, and wegive it out with the holding in
the container that we do in theclassroom. And we invited people
to start to take up this workinside themselves to and to, to
see the reflection of the peoplethat have been on panel, and

(01:12:46):
it's easy to just listen to agreat panel. And it's easy to be
impacted from afar. But what weare wanting people to know is
like there are literally we allare in these own our own
personal prisons in the sameexact way. And so it was, you
know, like anything, it was itwas productive, and it was
useful.

Yeah, it was it definitely. It said some other
things in motion, which, which Ithink were were important things
to

where did this, this one of my moto is the right
word. It's this this thing thatyou said, and it's printed in
several places that we're all ina prison of our own making. And
the way that we suffer ourpersonalities is how I don't
know if suffer is the rightword. But that's how I that's
how I first heard, okay, becauseit feels like a suffer from, for

(01:13:40):
me a lot of times, where didthat come from? Who was that?
Something that just got said andwas like, oh, that's gold? Or
did you like crafted over time,

I know exactly where it came from. Before I
went to Texas, I was in my suchanxiety. And I got introduced to
a man named Jonathan, who's abeautiful coach, and doesn't
charge a lot to coach people.
And I didn't, I had never had acoach before that. And he pro
bono just sort of spent a littlebit of time with me. And he

(01:14:09):
helped me to, to sort of harvestwhat I already knew in order to
think about how to go in there.
And that was in those that firstconversation with Jonathan,
where that came out of that outof that session, and it never
left. And so I think I knew verywell, I still notice that the

(01:14:33):
the ways I kind of again, comeup against my own structure, and
it was so apt that it

just stuck 2013

I don't think I've ever heard that actually.
Really, really, I knew I didn'tknow that's what that came from.

Well, it took 10 years. So 2013 was Denver 2014
was San Francisco 2015 was alsoSan Francisco right San
Francisco as well later in 2015.
We I left the country in thefall of 2015. And we went to
Denmark. Copenhagen. Yeah, wewent to Finland.

I think we went to Finland different year but same
trip.

For me. Yeah, well, I was there. And I don't know if
you all went a different time aswell, for it was seven days in,
in one we had like the house, wealso like this big house with a
bunch of us. And we did theCopenhagen conference. And then
we went to Finland after that wewent to Helsinki prison, which
was wild because I don't think Ihad ID and they still let me
write just Brainfart and forgotat the hotel or whatever. Right.

(01:15:37):
And that whole trip was, there'sso many, there's so many stories
from that trip, that are thatare fun to talk about. I want to
hear what was what was yourexperience, either of you, I

think was so significant about being in
Finland was the work that Lauravaltonen was doing. And she, she
was Laura was such a pioneer.
And we literally didn't have aworkbook. And we would be
Susanna and I would be on the onthe poly Skype, right. We didn't
have zoom, we were just onsomething with her giving her
just enough curriculum to gointo her next week class like,

(01:16:10):
well, this is what we do. Andhere's some handouts that you
can use, and she would go do itand then we would come back and
I just thought she was so shewas so brave and so passionate.
She wanted it to be there. Andthen when we got to come into
the prison and see and talk withthe students that she had been
inspiring and teaching and thenthey got to meet you, right they
got to meet Vic and theuniversality of the system and

(01:16:37):
the universality of the of theprisons that the prison system
Yes, a lot friendlier for you,but also the same like this is
this is how we incarcerate humanbeings. And this is this is the
tool that people need to be ableto free themselves whether
whether or not they're able toget out that was all coming to
life and the global pneus of it.

(01:16:59):
And so I think it's reallyimportant to honor pioneers like
Laura, who are so willing, withso little

Do you remember?
Just a little bit of a blur? I'mgetting my Finlands mixed up.
Yeah. So I'm trying to rememberif you've been twice. Didn't we
didn't we also wasn't therealso, as it both back to back
was the I'm getting my Finland'smixed up. I'm not sure I only

got to go one. So if I got a second trip coming my
way, then I'm, I'm ready to takeit. I'm so ready to go back.

I think that there, I think there was twice but

and I think the thing that's important to note
is that we were able to keepenvisioning bigger because of
all the day to day, week to weekwork that was happening in
Elmwood Correctional Facilityand then, and people like Dana,
who would start start off like,I don't know if I'll ever be
able to do this, but coming inweek after week, and just being

(01:17:57):
such a fixture of the programbefore she even got her feet and
got her chops to do it. Andthere's just a lot that was
growing, there was a foundationthat was supporting what wanted
to happen, you know, furtherabroad.

Right. And right there in 2015. was when we
started at San Mateo. And Ithink we just I think we've just
passed our I want to say it'slike 100 and 10th. Course and
San

Mateo was really cool.

How did how did you get into San Mateo? I know the
story with Elmwood a little bitabout San Mateo,

San Mateo happened because of Katie Rosenberg,
who's our bookkeeper. And shewas coming in and helping us
with our books. And she Katie isalways connected to cool people.
And she kept talking about herfriend Sherif monks. And she
said, You ought to meet ourfriend Greg monks. He's doing
great work at the prisons andthe jail. And San Mateo and I
was like, how do you know aboutme, I'm like, going back and

(01:18:51):
forth to Elma and go and makedinner and she's thank god,
she's doing the books. And shekept saying, and then finally
she said, you're coming todinner, and I've invited the
monks. And so we all showed up,and Greg monks, I'd never met
him. He came in and he, he wasdrinking a beer, and he put it
down on the table. And he said,so I'm a nine. And I bought, I

(01:19:12):
like Sheriff monks. And what arewe talking about? It's in a
Rick.

Unknown (01:19:18):
I don't remember.

We talked about the Enneagram. We talked about
his jail. We I remember

he talked about the he talked about the jail that
they were building which was nowwhich is now Maple Street. And
that he was that was the he wasworking on that because there
was only at the time Maguire

right. And they were the McGuire was old and
falling apart and dirty and theywanted to have a programming
facility and they were buildinga state of the state of the art
jail. It wasn't popular, becausepeople were thinking we already
have a jail, you know, put moremoney into this. But Sheriff
monk's was in every way thatnine he he's not I'm not in

(01:19:54):
touch with him but so I'mtalking about him in the past
tense but at the time when I gotto perience him, he, he had an
idea of what it would be like tobring something in that would be
for everybody. He did notunderstand the Enneagram. But he
knew enough to know that he wasa nine before we even had
dinner. And then he invited meto his office. And I remember
talking to Susanna Rick, likeholy should I go to go see the

(01:20:19):
President and I felt like that,because he would go into the
building and go through all themetal detector stuff. And I and
then you you, kind of like hiscity, it feels like you go up
the elevator. And there's awhole wall big long glass walls,
like that's all going to beshared amongst stuff in there.
And then, you know, he's he's infull dress uniform. And I didn't

(01:20:45):
know I was supposed to, like, Ijust hugged him at Katie's
house, like, what do I do now?
Right? Like shake his hand orcome sheriff. I didn't, I didn't
know all the rules. And I wasreally a little tongue tied, I
think. But then when we satdown, he's just normal as can
be. And he said, so can you canyou teach this program in our
facility before we come into thenew facility? And I said, Yes.
And that was that was my bigquestion like, would we get a

(01:21:05):
chance to to program? He said, Ifeels like when the staff
understand what's going oninside the institution, that
that's what helps us like alanguage, they help start to
understand each other, are youable to also teach our staff?
And I said, Yes, I am. He said,It seems to me that the problem
that we have when people get outis they don't get out in a place
that is, and they come back tothe same communities that they

(01:21:26):
left in. And if they don't haveany growth, or they don't have
an understanding, there isn't away to receive this person. And
do you think that you could workwith our families and reentry?
And I said, Yes, sir. And I'mlike, Oh, my God.

Did you have this in place? No, we're saying yes, of
this. But as we so confidentlysay, Yeah, sure, of course,

because that was that's the that's the whole end
game. That's the whole plan. Andthat's been the vision from the
beginning. I know, I knew wewould be able to do that. I
didn't know how,

or the timeline, or the timeline.

I remember coming out of that visit and sitting on
a little curve in between thesetwo bushes. And I got Suzanne
and rec on the phone. And Isaid, it's just blue all our
dreams. We need bigger ones.
Yeah. That's wild.

Do you have a curriculum at that point? Or are
you still like if you know,you're going to teach next
Tuesday, you're planning now forwhat you're going to teach
teens?

We had? If I remember correctly, we had. We
had the blue book. AndEnneagram. Yes. And then we also
had homework pages. For everyone of the every one of the
weeks.

Well, we had Clay was a binder. Yes. Had a binder
full of all the differenthandouts. And this is where I
want to just say there were manyEnneagram teachers who said,
whose work I had come across andI had found really useful for
myself and I would reach out tothem and say, I'm teaching in
jail or putting together acurriculum. Is it okay if I use

(01:23:01):
this? And I never had anybodysay no. So David Daniels was
very generous. Very, verygenerous. The narrative
Enneagram was very, verygenerous. Jerry Wagner. Peter
Oh, Hanrahan. I'm sure I'm goingto leave people out. Mario
Gilbert. Then of course, he'salso the visual Enneagram. Russ

(01:23:21):
Hudson. Yeah. So I'm never goingto be one of those people. I'm
never going to write a book likethe wisdom of the Enneagram. So
we had curriculum, because wehad teaching and we had people
who knew that the Enneagramneeded to be in more places. And
so we had a binder. And eachweek, we're kind of shuffling
things. We're making a lot ofphotocopies. So when we got into
San Mateo gel, and we wouldstand in that copy room for so

(01:23:42):
many hours. And they and then atsome point, we got cut off and
we're like, okay, because theythey could see how much paper we
were using an ink. Yeah. Andthen we realized we needed a
workbook.

So how the that come about who who was what, how do
you put together your ownworkbook to teach the Enneagram
to the incarcerated?

It started off, when we would come back from
each of our courses each week.
And we would write down why dowe teach but I was teaching like
six different classes. So Iteach, I don't know three or so
in Elmwood and I would teach twoor three or four in San Mateo.
And then we also were startingin San Quentin. So we would
stack our days to go to in SanMateo and then we end up at San

(01:24:24):
Quentin at night. And it wasimpossible to keep track of who
was where so I had littlebinders and folders of the
different students with therosters. And we would write down
sort of the flow of of what wecovered and then we started to
move around. Well, this is whatwe covered then and shouldn't it
go before and and then we slowlyput together just a rough

(01:24:45):
assembly of those things andthen we realized we needed then
it became clear what what wewere missing. We're missing the
introduction we're missing thethe division of the different
modules and Ah, somebody at onepoint said to me, it would be
great if there was a table ofcontents and I looked at him I
thought, yeah, wouldn't it wouldbe so helpful if somebody would

(01:25:06):
organize that for me.

What was what was who put who put it together?

Well, starting off when we we did that with Suzanne
and then when Robert let andRobin came in he he brought his
beautiful background full ofcurriculum and design and
creativity and Robin is acreative and so he brought it to
life, put color, put in, put inthe modules, made pictures,

(01:25:33):
Robin can, you know, whip upsomething visually that's
compelling and it feels likejust minutes. And that's that
was really, really big. That'swhen we met Susanne Gawreluk.
People are getting confused withthe Suzanne's and welcome to EPP
because there have been moreSusan Susie's and Suzanne's and
Susan's, I can shake a stick atYeah, Susanne Gawreluk was
really energized by the workbookand as has ever since then been

(01:25:56):
somebody who's really followedthrough with it, making sure
that the Table of Contents gotin there making sure that things
made sense getting all thetypos, because there are many

Yeah, yeah, who designed the first cover is
because there's a differentcover nowadays than it was
originally or it's a different

cover. Now, right now the cover is by Roche. And
he's one of our students on theinside. And he's a Type Four.
And we'd asked many differenttimes if people had artwork they
wanted to deliver to contribute.
And when he showed up at thatbeautiful Enneagram we were all
so excited. And we we had to getpermission. We had his
permission, we had to get itfrom the institution. We had it
all ready to go. And then wewere still waiting for the

(01:26:35):
institution to give us theirpermission. And they finally
did. We were so excited. We gotit off the press. And then we
realized, I think was it Helen?
Was it Helen,

remember who remind me it was Helen that there was
there was a sixth missing? Thesixth was on the cover. So
number six, number six wasmissing on the cover.

And we're like, oh, God, that now that's kind of
like one of those rare baseballcards? Yeah.

The misprint? Yeah, the error. So the guarantees, at
least a few people heard you sayhis name and rewound. So did she
just say, Roche? His name isRose. Yeah, it's an MA. And
sanquin. Yeah. And

he's a person.
He's a resident at San Quentin.
Hey,

I said the wrong word.

You said you're worried. But I'm saying that's
the word that I like to say.
Because I think people it's notjust semantics. It's not words
matter. Yeah. And he's not Well,honestly, Clay, you have the
right to speak as you do.
Because you've lived a lot ofexperience that I haven't lived.
So I respect it when when yousay inmate, but I feel like for

(01:27:42):
me brooches just business, notlike anyone. And he has lived
through more adverse childhoodexperiences than most people
I've ever read about. And he'she's still working. I haven't
seen Roche since the pandemic,and I miss him. But he's been a

(01:28:03):
big contributor to EPP from theinside.

How long till we get back in after the COVID related
restrictions? Do you know that?

Or it's on its way?

It's coming? Yeah,

I'm in good correspondence with the
institution with the rightpeople. And I see that's on the
horizon.

So I asked both of you before we talked, and I
think I gave at least a day'snotice. If there were any
milestones or any, any momentsor anything like that, I bet
we've covered a few of them, atleast. But I want to pause and
say are there any like thingsthat stick out that that we've
missed so far, in the first fewyears of VPP?

I think that there are angels in the project that
we wouldn't have been able tocontinue the way that we did
acting like a very largenonprofit. Without, and I think,
at that conference, when we metLance and Diane and Lance had
just sold his business and hetalked about this, and he I'm

(01:29:00):
not sure exactly what he said,But and when he told the story,
but what I remember is being atthe party of the last night of
the conference, and him sayingI'd like to have a word with
you. And and he I don't rememberit being with you, I think it
was just me. And he said I youknow, I'm in this place and I
like to I'm an investor and Ican really see what what you

(01:29:21):
what you have here. And and heshared a little bit about his
story. And I realized how thiswhole inside outside right
there's a big focus that I hadbeen on the inside really all
the way up to the pandemic ourwhole focus had been working
with people who were currentlyincarcerated but the families
and the the impact to lands andDiana and what that had been to

(01:29:45):
live through. I didn't realizethat and there are people who
who have resources Lance andDiane are are one of them. And
and they've they've beensignificant investors in the
project. We have many times notbeen able to make payroll,
without them, and, and so muchmore. And they're not just that

(01:30:11):
they're they're also in ourcourses taking all of our public
programming, they're alsoshowing up that the
reconnecting, which is that forpeople who have, you know, were
formerly incarcerated and wantto come back on a weekly basis.
They're sitting in boardmeetings and inviting us to
their home inviting you to theirhome like they are, as I mean,
talk about engagement from adonor is just like to use the

(01:30:34):
word donor almost just feelslike to diminish what they're
actually doing. And actually,the donation part has to be
said, because we would not havesubsisted, Rick quit his job.
And we had no business thinkingthat that was possible. But we
both know. And the means to herand Brian men are on our board
and significant investors anddonors. And they don't like to
say that and they often goanonymous. But they are. They

(01:30:59):
are, what subsidize our passionand our vision.

I forget, I forget that aspect of it. Because for
me, it's, I visited with Lanceand Diane a lot, I've I go to
that part of the country, I tryto go every year for a big
Foosball tournament, and thenthey live very close to that. So
I try to add a day on the front,or on the back, sometimes both.
Or even if it's just like I wantto visit and their friends.

(01:31:26):
They're like family. And it's,it's, it's, I will admit that
when you said donor, I felt alittle lightweight, like it is
what it is it but I felt likethat's my people. And the story
that he told on his episode isfunny, where he the conversation
and Denver, where, you know, Iguess he was asking about plans

(01:31:48):
are what are your goals orsomething like that? And it was
like, we want to be global. Andhe says, it's funny to me, but
he says, Okay, you have anythingsmaller? It's, it's, it's funny
to be. And it's especiallybecause now it's like literally,

(01:32:08):
globally. Grant? Oh, like manycontinents? Just go ahead, Rick,

I think the number is now with with the difference
with nine p 1k. And the programshave been doing I think, I want
to say it's like 57 or 58.
Countries, it might be greaterthan 60. Now, it's a lot.

And it's not just on the inside, it's it's you know,
prison is is our middle namestill. And it's the programming
is not, you don't have to breaka law to qualify for our
programming. Right, which iscool. Right? How did that come
about? How did it go fromsomething that you could only do

(01:32:51):
on the inside to now it's, it'sopen to the free world?

Well, that was the silver lining of the pandemic,
that we could not program on theinside at all, anywhere. And can
you hear my cat purring? Nope.
Okay, she's right up in my ear.

I see you're trying to nibble on your headphones,
but I couldn't hear.

And so we did.
Just had a moment where I waslike, I want to teach like I
can't just sit here. And HalidaRick and I are sitting there and
trying to figure out what to do.
And we just decided to do abasic Enneagram class. And we we
invited a few people close in,it turned into three cohorts.

(01:33:37):
That was about 60 people. And wethrough the name nine prisons,
one key on it, which issomething that we had been
already trademarked and new wassome signature VPP. And that
when it was over, we did itagain. And we've done it now
seven times. And that's only thefirst portion of our curriculum.
That's just the basicintroduction of the Enneagram
that the premise that there'snothing wrong with you, and

(01:33:59):
helping people to fall in lovewith all nine types. The second
portion of our curriculum isabout, you know, you've heard
other people on this on thispodcast, talk about it. Susanne
did a great job talking aboutit. And it's the deeper dive to
really what happened to youunpacking your, the childhood,
and in threaded through that asour understanding of object

(01:34:21):
relations and addiction and thebrain and what happens in our
defense system and theresiliency, and the positive
experiences that help us to comeout of that. And really, that's
the second portion of of whatwe've called Path of freedom.
All of that came about becausewe once we did one part, then we
knew we needed the next part.
And once we did all of those,both of those two classes,
something really significant hasnow happened for the project.

(01:34:42):
And that is that anyone anywherewho has an internet connection,
who is willing to you know,follow our principles of safety,
which is taking emotionalresponsibility for themselves
and we show people how to dothat anyone can come in and
experience our curriculum. Andthat's been so significant
because what and people wantedto come into EPP before we had
no way of helping them to aculture aid to our way of being

(01:35:03):
an it is a significant way ofbeing we really are asking
people to best they can to comewith their whole selves to be
conscious about themselves. Andour curriculum that we teach is
also our what supports us infunctioning as a aspiring to
organization helping us to evenknow

Unknown (01:35:28):
how to how to do that.

There's a lot there.
I want, I want to, I want tostart with the emotional
responsibility. You said thisphrase, and what is that? Why is
it important? What, uh, what is?
Tell me more about that.

In our curriculum, we use that very simple model of
above and below the line to askpeople if they're willing to
take 100% Emotionalresponsibility, which is
something Rick and I learned intherapy. Right when Leanne
McWatters Thank you, Leanne, sheliterally donated that to the
project. And I we went in, Iwent in first I was looking for
a therapist, I'd fired three, Iwas very unhappy. I sat on her

(01:36:05):
couch, and she asked me, Are youwilling to take 100% Emotional
responsibility? I thought whatthe hell? I'm paying you. Of
course, I'm willing. And I wasuntil I until like three set
four sessions later where shegot me to bring Rick in. And and
she asked him the same question.
And I realized, Oh, I waswilling to take 100% Emotional

(01:36:26):
responsibility until Rick was atotal jerk. And then everything
I felt was Rick's fault. Andthat's when she brought me back
to the form that I had signedand realize that how convenient
that was that if it wasn't theway I wanted him to be, then I
didn't have to be responsiblefor anything. And he my anger
and my frustration and myjudgment. And I did not like
that. And I knew I had the righttherapist, because now I was in

(01:36:47):
the work.

How does that still show up? Do you still have to
remind yourself?

Oh, we have a flawless marriage
I can't think the last time I'vehad any sort of reactivity.

I don't think people realize how damn funny Susan is.
I don't think that is twicetoday. Those were like that is
That's hilarious. Something elseearlier today was really funny.
And I wish I wish I got to seemore than you're hilarious. Oh,
really? Phrase. Yeah. It'sfunny. Now I just did the thing

(01:37:25):
from it, we can cut this out.
But I gotta get it out of myhead or it won't leave is No, I
just threw it on the ground.

That's all good old fashioned Coleman sarcasm

was funny. A ball was dropped, what did you slip
slip out, and I just threw it.
That was funny. That was thesame style of funny. And then
you also mentioned, you alsomentioned an aspiring till
organization, which I think manypeople might not understand what
that is or what all thatentails.

I think I think I talk about that at all on the on
my podcast, probably I did youdid. That. It's so interesting.
How things are brought into thespaces, certainly into EPP at a
really, really opportune time.
And one of the things that also,at the same time that we were

(01:38:23):
going about having thisconversation around, like how
are we going to teach, you know,in the, to the public. The other
conversation that was happeningwas how do you grow community?
And how do you change? What,what is what you are wanting
from folks, as they're comingtowards the quote unquote,

(01:38:47):
organization? And how do youkind of differentiate? Because
organizational, you know, theoryis like, Well, we were in a
hierarchical structure. Right.
I'm the Executive Director, Ireport to the board, the board
has, you know, fiduciaryresponsibilities, and then you
have people underneath theexecutive director that are

(01:39:09):
fulfilling all these tasks. AndI was super, you know, used to
that structure. And, and yet,the things that were coming up
was like, Oh, how do you grow acommunity that way? Right,
because it's just different. Iunderstand how to grow a company
that way. But it's, but it's butif you're but, but people are

(01:39:31):
coming forward and they have,you know, passion skill, and,
and they want to be, you know,part of a mission and vision and
values. And how do you how doyou integrate all of that under
these like, into this like,hierarchical structure? And, and
then Susan was meeting withsomebody and they had given this

(01:39:56):
book to her about reinventingorganizations and we started to
go went through it, and shestarted going through it. And I
was like, oh, goodness, this isactually a perfect fit for how
we actually can live into ourvalues as an entire, you know,
organism, you will, and how, andhow to be able to do that across

(01:40:17):
borders and boundaries and, andhearts, and then try to like,
live into something that'sdifferent. And so this teal
organization piece, you know,the simple soundbite for it is
allowing folks to be able tobring their passions and bring
their hearts online intosomething that, that moves them,

(01:40:39):
and how and the thing thatresonated with me as a seven is
how empowering it is to have tonot have some kind of
hierarchical structure thatyou're reporting to, and that
you can actually be free and andto, to explore. That was a that
was kind of how my entry pointinto teal. And it was it was

(01:41:00):
lovely. And it's reallysomething that we've been over
the last couple years havereally been, you know,
negotiating and trying tounderstand more and, and what
the reason why Susan said,aspiring Teal is good. And it's
because it's something that'sever growing and growing within
us. So

and the last couple of years, we've had a
considerable amount of playersto the game, so to speak. And
what was once a few people. Youknow, you mentioned earlier,
you're talking about watchingthe video in the hotel room in
Denver, and there were four orfive of us maybe. And that felt

(01:41:37):
like a crowded room. I guess notin a bad way. But it's just
like, we're like a littleroutine, you know, kind of
thing. And now it's it's can'tget us in a room? Literally. I
don't think we I don't thinkthey would. Yeah, literally. So
first of all, do we know anumber like how many everything
from staff, you know, facultyguides, apprentices, all the all

(01:41:59):
the different things that thatexist inside of EPP.

I think that we have north of north of 300
people in that have EnneagramPrison Project, email addresses.
That's an easier than

1000 people in Slack. Yeah, we have seven paid
staff for Enneagram PrisonProject. We have 1212
ambassadors.

Yeah, I mean, it there's the numbers are they're
always in flux, right? I had todo this thing for Laura, who was
Laura Hooper, who was a programmanager guide, podcast and all
kinds of things. But she was shejust wrote with his one quick
little note to me was like, Hey,how many and then and then

(01:42:43):
Halida followed up just a coupledays? How many guys and
apprentices do we have? And Iwas like, goodness gracious, the
habit of I just say 50 plus. Andthen when we get started make
leecher. And then when we get towhen we get to 100 Plus, I'll
say 100 Plus,

and I think the number the grossing guides came
from the pandemic, because whenwe finally laid out the
curriculum, people, everybodycould take in the experience of
the curriculum. And then we didwe rebuilt the guide training
program to be all online and notover at 1440. Not in person, and
not available, not yet in personanywhere, because that's not how
the world was working. And solast year for the guy training

(01:43:22):
program, we accepted 50applications, which was the most
we'd ever trained before lastyear was 12. And it took six
faculty to train 12 people inperson and we were hauling
people up and down the peninsulainto our facilities into San
Quentin, which was magical. Andhonestly, I hope it can come
back that way again in thefuture somehow, but it wasn't
the way we were going to scale.
And now we have we have so manyguides in training in different

(01:43:46):
stages of their apprenticesapprenticing and, and nine
prisons one key apprenticing theimpact of Freedom Project,
apprenticing in a virtual incustody program and practicing
in an in person in custodyprogram. And so it is really
hard to count who's at whatstage and how are you how are we
going, but we do know it's goingwell. And we do know that people

(01:44:06):
are taking the guides are someof the most equipped people to
be evangelizers if you will forour work in our program because
they know that the curriculum sowell inside themselves, they've
they've really done that work,and they can speak to it, they
can articulate it, which is hardto do. It's hard to share what
the Enneagram is, and that'sstarting to happen. People are

(01:44:27):
in their own local, you know,community and they they know the
chief of police there, they knowthe, you know, someone who's
been incarcerated there. They'reconnected to the reconnecting
program reentry programs, andthey're able to start bringing
it to places that we Rick and Iwould never meet and here in Los
Gatos, California

Hey everybody, it's clay and we want to pause here
to take a quick break and andshare with you this episode's
words of appreciation. If youdidn't know, words of
appreciation is a segment thatwe began to implement, starting
with the previous episode, theone before this one. And it was
inspired by Jason white. Andwhen I say that it was inspired

(01:45:18):
by Jason white, I don't meanthat it was his idea. I don't
mean that he said, Hey, youshould do this thing. What I
mean is, Jason is so helpful.
He's, he's just a valuable soulwithin the project. If you want
to hear more about him, go tothe previous episode, and
listen, about halfway throughthe episode, and we talk more
about him. So now, this is athing that we're going to do,

(01:45:40):
we're just going to pick someonein the project. And, you know,
I've already collected wordsfrom people, you know, other
guides and other students andother ambassadors and just
different people in EPP and forthis episode, we're going to
share our words of appreciationfor Susan Lessig. Now, if you're
listening to this, there's afair chance that you know who

(01:46:03):
Susan is, but just in case, youdon't, I'll tell you, Susan
founded EPP. 10 years ago,actually, that's what we're
celebrating here in thisepisode. And she began teaching
in prison even a couple yearsbefore that. So for a dozen
years now, she has been ashining light. I'll just

(01:46:25):
summarize by saying that in aworld where it's so desperately
needed, she has absolutely beena shining light. So I messaged
her, I don't know 10 or 15people, and I said, Hey, what
three words come to mind whenyou think of Susan Olesek and
your experiences with her? I'mgonna read a collection of those

(01:46:46):
words now. Acceptance, amazing.
Angelic, calm, caring,compassionate, compelling,
delightful. Direct. Energetic.
Expansion. Exploration.
Extraordinary. Fierce. idealist.
Funny, gentle growth, healing,heartful. Hope. Inclusive. Inner

(01:47:11):
Light, reflect inspirational,witness, inspiring, kind, love.
Masterful, passionate, poignant.
Present, pure, sincere,unconditional love. And one

(01:47:37):
final word. So I didn't saybefore last is just at the end
of the alphabet. Under vie forvisionary, Susan elastic is
absolutely a visionary. And I'mcomfortable saying that without
her. None of this EPP stuff evenhappens. So to you, Susan, we

(01:47:57):
say collectively that we loveyou. We thank you. And we
appreciate you. I want to pullsomething out that I saw on
Facebook. It's a post from 2014which is eight years ago. And it
says it's a picture of a bunchof files and a bunch of there's

(01:48:22):
a banner EPP banner in the back.
And it says rolling up ourcollective sleeves and getting
ready for the first EPP Summit.
And that was here at your house.
Do you remember what the firstEPP summit was? I don't have a
super clear memory of that. And

well, it was a bunch of folks, some local some
not who really were excitedabout what we were up to. And
were willing to first drive upthe mountain and second spend
the whole day talking about itand then took our collaboration
out into some next steps. And itwas it was our it was our

(01:49:01):
attempt to breathe intosomething more collective and,
and bigger broadening broadeningthe vision. What do you
remember?

That's that's a good recollection. I remember.
Everyone upstairs. I rememberwhiteboards. I remember
conversations around EPP as thename Enneagram Prison Project,
just the name? Yeah, it was itwas it was it was a collective
in breath.

What kind of conversations were there about
the name? Like what were there?
Was it ever gonna be maybesomething different? Or did
other people have ideas andlike, like

the, I think that the the consensus was that
Enneagram Prison Project was thename you were gonna go with. But
there were lots of ideas thatpeople were throwing around. The
reason why I think EnneagramPrison Project stuck was that it
was super descriptive EnneagramPrison Project. And so there

(01:50:06):
were some things that werethrown out that were less
specific. And they sounded mighthave sounded a little, you know,
more esoteric, or, you know,free to me and whatever it just
didn't

occur to me like that, like that was the word was
in the night like it was GeneralFreedom Organization.

Like imagine, imagine a name that doesn't.
That is that could be applied,but doesn't have the word
Enneagram or Edward Enneagram init might not even have the word
prison in it. Okay,

and we just kicked it around for so long. And when
we landed, we landed for good,because we wanted the name to
say exactly what we do, which itdoes. And it has been a great
decision. I think there havebeen many times I've been at
conferences that are notEnneagram conferences wearing a
badge that says Enneagram PrisonProject. And I've been walking

(01:51:04):
across the street and had peopleliterally pull me back to their
side saying, Tell me what youdo. Because if anybody
understands the Enneagram, andthey see the word prison with
it, they get it somehow they getsomething,

or even if they've if they're into the if it's not
an Enneagram community, it's aprison related thing. And I'm
wondering what, what's theEnneagram? Like, how does that
relate to prison? Because I wentto prison. I don't remember that
or whatever. How did you How whyproject instead of Enneagram
prison organization orEnneagram, prison, school or

(01:51:36):
anything like that? What's sosignificant about the word
project?

I don't think that was as significant as the first
two words, honestly, but it didroll off the tongue. And it
worked.

Right. And then in quickly, from that we got to EPP
and so

I don't remember calling a CPP. I remember people
calling us EPP. And then thatdid stick. Yeah. So, I mean, we
definitely put the three letterstogether. We knew that that was
an eventuality, but it wasquick.

I've also heard there. Some people, some people
say the Wii and some peopledon't say that the so Enneagram
Prison Project. Some people saythe Enneagram Prison Project you
mentioned last night, when we'retalking about the paperwork that
got stamped. And the was youmentioned that D was in there.
So not that it's superimportant. But once and for all,

(01:52:29):
like what is it is the V isthere on paper? But is it
significant? Or does it reallymatter? Is it just like?

Well, it is on there it is on there on the
paper, and I think ourcolloquial, affectionate use, we
dropped the Yeah.

Cool. Awesome. So where shall we pick back up
today? Last night, we wentthrough the first few years even
before EPP began and talkedabout your first visits in
prison. And we talked aboutquite a few conferences and
other things that happened. AndI feel like we left off in the
2015 2016. Ish kind of right.
Yeah. So Where's where's a goodplace to get back started?

2015 is a good time. Okay. Susan had been in it
at Homewood and started at SanMateo. By the time 2015 rolls
around, Vic had gotten out.
There was the the end note hadhappened. In 2015, was a it was
there was a lot of use the wordquickening last time. There

(01:53:37):
wasn't there was a lot of thingsthat were starting to come
together in 2015.

One thing that has been a thread that from the
beginning was the involvement ofRuss Hudson. And it's
significant because Ross is isa, like David, major developer,
contributor to the Enneagram.
And the world system, you know,the way we understand the
Enneagram in the world. And itwas significant because of how
Russ personally endorsed andembraced what we were up to. And

(01:54:08):
we invited him into our programsin the county jails, and and
also into San Quentin. And hewas an unequivocal yes. And you
know, Ross has a lot ofdifferent places. He always made
time, it's not convenient to gointo an incident institution.
And at times, I remember vividlyhow we brought rest into Elmwood

(01:54:30):
Correctional Facility and it wasso exciting. And we had the
whole day mapped out and we werein multiple classes that day.
We're trying to share him sothat a lots of the students
would get to experience for us.
And we got to the lobby and hedidn't have clearance. And we
were like Oh no. And that wasnot the first time any of us had

(01:54:53):
gotten to the gate and couldn'tget in. It was often a glitch. I
don't remember actually whatthat glitch was was on our side
or the facility side. It couldhave been either. And for us, I
just remember him sitting therein the lobby seats watching what
ever drivel was on TV. And hesaid, and he didn't have his
phone on him. He, I think, hadto wait there an hour and he
couldn't have been kinder, ormore pleasant or more

(01:55:15):
understanding. And then when hedid get in, he just dropped
right into wherever the classwas. And he's always been that
way. He's always just been oneof us. Hashtag flexibility, and
doing what he what he could do,which was sometimes nothing. But
wait.

Also what she remember what was that? His
first time going in? Were you inthe middle of like, a several
week curriculum where you weretalking about this, this part of
the curriculum? Or was it like ageneral presentation too,
because I know sometimes, likefor new classes, there's like
this a general presentationabout who we are and what we do.

(01:55:55):
Yeah, no,

we were in the middle of our regular programs.
And we had multiple classes atabout the same time. But they
didn't always start and end atthe same time. And he came into
M four C, which is where I metRene, and I'd be curious to ask
Renee if he was there and Rosscame, I don't remember. And I
remember when Russ introducedwhat we call now Mr. crumble.

(01:56:19):
And Russ just had a stick figuredrawn on a piece of paper. And
he talked about how there's adivine spark and all of us and
that were pure and pull, how arewe calm. And he was sort of
playing with the little guy thathe was the little baby that was
on his piece of paper. And thenhe started to talk about how we
have things that happen to usand the people that we want to

(01:56:40):
see us don't see us in exactlythe way that we want to. And
sometimes we come home fromschool, and there's no one
there. And he took the piece ofpaper. And when he said there
was no one there. Yeah, he madea little crumble. And then he
continued to talk aboutdifferent adverse adversities
that happen to us. Things werebig traumas, little traumas,

(01:57:01):
things that affected our psycheand hurt our, our hearts. And
you continue to crumple thepaper until it was just a little
ball. And I was standing behindRoss, I've never seen him do
this exercise before. But I waswatching people riveted, and so
transfixed by, by the content ofwhat he was sharing, and really,

(01:57:25):
they were in those, all of allof us were in those crumbles
that he was making. And when hegot to the ball, you could feel
the weight and the heaviness inthe room. And rest knew he had
us literally in the palm of hishand. And he knew where he was
going with that exercise. And hebegan to open it up. And he
said, You know, when you whenyou start to do this in our

(01:57:47):
work, you unwind these things,and we realize that, you know,
there's, there's there'swrinkles now on us, and there's
things that are we don't wedon't look the same but and he
began to continue to unfold thepaper. But when we, when we open
it all the way back up, we'restill in there, you know, that
Divine Spark is still there. Andwe it was such a beautiful,

(01:58:08):
simple illustration. And weharvested that teaching and we
began to use it and we use it inall of our classes now and we
and we are when we talk aboutthe Divine Spark and he just
always had has had a spirit ofgenerosity about whatever he
brought in he left with thewomen the men are students us in

(01:58:31):
our curriculum, he he's notattached to anything it feels
like and and it's it's somethingthat I think Russell's
involvement has, has said to inboth directions to the Enneagram
community, this project mattersand to EPP your your work
matters to the Enneagram world,right? It didn't just say the

(01:58:54):
same thing, but it felt likethere was a reciprocity he was
translating in his formidablepresence

with Mr. Crumple that you said that was the first
time you had seen him do that.
And I wonder maybe you know theanswer this, but I would like to
ask him if, if none of us do,did he? Is that something that
he had done previously? Or didhe come up with that on the fly?
Because

you've done it before? You said he had done it
before?

Yeah. What were the what were some takeaways? As I
talked about, Russ, his firstexperience going on the inside
when we chatted back in episodefive. And so I've heard a lot of
his a lot of what it was likefor him going in and all that
stuff. Do you remember muchabout that day like after? Like

(01:59:43):
there's this thing that happenswhen people go in for the first
time and then you do? You're onthe inside? Then you get out?
You know, later that day you gohave dinner and you go hang out
you do whatever? Was thereanything. Anything memorable
conversations or takeaways fromafter the fact or like
debriefing or anything likethat? I

don't know if I said this one on the podcast.
But he came into San Quentin,he's been in many times. So I
can't remember if this was that,that first visit or not going in
the first time he he met withour class that was meeting in a
closet of a classroom or 40 Menare so in that room. And it was
it was tiny and had an entrancethat went into the the main

(02:00:23):
prison, but it also had aninterest that was like the back
door of a stage in the chapel.
And sometimes during our class,men would come through our
classroom for costume changes. Imean, it was one of the hardest
rooms to be in. And he justrolled with all of that. When we
were in there. He came in and hespoke about mercy. And he spoke
with with just such tenderness.
And I think the men really knewwho had been there and who they

(02:00:47):
were being taught by, not onlybecause we had built him up and
talked about him, but because ofwhat he transmitted in that in
that way. And so we got to takea picture with that class that's
very special. It's on mybulletin board. And we, we had a
long drive, you know, as aFriday night, at that time, when
we were teaching Friday night atthree, from San Quentin, to all

(02:01:09):
the way down to Los Gatos iscould be a three hour drive. And
I was really wanting to get onthe road because I know that
drive and minutes matter. Iforgot to point out the bathroom
for us on the way out the door.
And then we just had such achuckle because I felt like my
father, for poor wrestlers weredriving down when I was little,
we would say Dad, could you stopand be like, what more exit?

(02:01:31):
Well, we're exit wrestlers aboutto pop by the time you got to a
restaurant in those ghettos.
That is that what comes to mind,you talk about the conversations
funny,

and there are there are restrooms when you go on the
inside, but it's a verypermission based situation. You
don't just get up and walk outthe way that you would you know,
out here in the free world andI, I've been there so I know.
And it's, it's not alwayscomfortable to just step out and
use the restroom while you're onthe inside of a of a prison.

(02:02:01):
That's funny. What what is itlike to have? So rest is kind of
a big deal in the Enneagramworld. And and, you know, I
think the world of him evenoutside of that he's my buddy, I
think very highly of him as a asa as a friend. But what does it
mean, to have someone like that,kind of just cosign for this

(02:02:25):
project that you've that youfounded so many years ago,

I think it means a lot on different levels. For me
personally, it has been a verydeep validation of what has been
on my heart. And

Unknown (02:02:43):
I started significant.
I feel

myself to be visionary for this project, I
obviously founded it, see it, Istill see it. And there. And yet
there are some people who I haveadmired who have not resonated
with it and have not done whatRuss has done. And he has just
always seen it. So I have a lotof teachers that a lot of

(02:03:18):
Enneagram teachers, when Russteaches I, I am really moved,
when we are looking at our workand who have pendulous, when we
started to work with instincts,there are a lot of different
perspectives out there. And wedecided to go with one approach
to keep it clear to keep itcohesive, and he has his work

(02:03:39):
works. And so I'm not sure howto Yeah, a good transition for
this one. Part out I have

some transitions are as they are.

I think that I think the other part that is
really clear for me, is such agenerosity of spirit. The
willingness to to be present towhat is coming up on the inside,
as well as in the project.
Saying yes to so many differentthings. I mean, I remember we
should we can talk about Susandoing a TEDx talk in in, in New

(02:04:15):
York, which was about to 2015when we stayed at Russell's
apartment, he wasn't even there.
Right? I didn't know that. Yeah.
So. So you know, we're in town,he's not there. And he's like,
Oh, you can just stay in myapartment. And again, just, just
generosity, that is, you know,it's just been so. Yeah, just

(02:04:38):
generosity of spirit and, andall the things. I mean, we've
done so many different partswith SLN. And, and bringing
folks around and it's been it'sbeen lovely to be in the work
with him. That's, that's just alittle bit of my perspective.
So,

so they're in 2015 2016 moving forward. or
what, what is the next? What'sthe next thing on the EPP
timeline there? That's, that'sworth stopping at visiting,
mentioning talking about?

Well, this isn't a TEDx talk was kind of a big
deal. Yeah. I don't know, Inever remember if it was 2016 or
2015, or whatever. But I'm sureI will at some point, we can
find that out. Yeah. And thatwas a, that was her going to
going to New York and, you know,on the campus, you know, New

(02:05:33):
York University and doing theTEDx talk, it was and she killed
it. Just and put a lot ofherself into that space. And I
really think that the fact thatshe had done the the EndNote.
Before, really, for me, as I waskind of watching her blossom, I

(02:05:53):
was like, Oh, this is like thenext thing where, you know, one
followed the other. I don't knowwhat it was, what was it like
for you?

It was terrifying.
It was a really big deal. I wasit was again, one of those
Absolutely, yes. And oh my god,all in the same breath. I knew
it was going to be a big thing Iknew I really wanted to do well
at it. And we had to, it wasreally hard to pick who to speak
to as an exemplar, there werethere were two that I had in
that talk. And in the end, weneeded to edit it down for time.

(02:06:27):
And, and speaking about John, hehas been such a precious
student, it was, it was easy toinclude John, John was super
generous with his story. Andcommunicating with him to get
that permission was difficult,because he was on the inside.
And trying to figure out how towrite that. So that we could

(02:06:51):
include everything that neededto be included, we knew we hoped
that it would be widely watchedand circulated. And that it
would be able to say all thethings all the elements of, of
what we're up to. And I feellike we accomplished that. But
it was it was a labor of love.
And I was I was really gratefulto be asked and to be included.

(02:07:19):
And then, when we had to do a,we had to do a practice. And it
was about a week before theactual event. And I had been,
you know, I drove all overHell's half acre all the time, I
was just constantly saying thatout loud, like I'd have it down.
And it was 18 minutes long. Soit was a lot of content. And I

(02:07:39):
remember at the practice, whenwe were on with the producers,
and I couldn't get through itwithout solving. And I think
they were, they were sweating itbecause it's not powerful if I
couldn't hold it together. Andbut I really lost it. And it's
interesting thing for me with mywriting because I hadn't been

(02:08:01):
saying it. I hadn't had beensaying it. And I had written it,
but I hadn't delivered it toanother human being. And so when
that happened, Suzanne Dion wassupporting me in a big way. And
we just we just said, Well, youknow, we'll be okay. We'll be
okay. And the other thing thatwas significant is they they

(02:08:23):
really wanted less visuals. AndI want to just give a huge shout
out to Susanne Dion, because shewas she is such a talented
artist, and she had created somuch great artwork for that. And
she just said, No, we've gotthese, we've got this art and it
needs to be in there. Not all ofit. But a lot of it did. And I
think if you watch it now thevisuals that are in there very
powerful, and they do threadthrough the whole thing. And I

(02:08:47):
when I actually did do it therewas a there was a moment you can
hear it in the in the talk whereI really had to swallow and try
to keep it together. And thatwas the same place I broke down
and I did not want to miss theopportunity to to do right by

(02:09:08):
John by this project. I wantedto hold it and I felt like it
something. Again, it was anotherjust significant moment. Like
you say Rick, something,something was burst through at
that at that moment at that

point. What was the big deal with the visuals that
did they add time? Or did theyjust make it more difficult?
They

asked for 10? I think we had 100. So I think we
ended up down to like 45 or someother number we just had so many

are they the ones having to click through it or
did was Susanne doing that?

No. Susanne did that in the on the backdrop on
the background.

I don't understand why they cared.

I think it was just what they had in mind. And
in the end they didn't mind.
They were they were able to beflexible, and I was glad about
that.

So what came from that? That was it was a big
deal. As you said, Rick, whatwhat were the what was the
aftermath or the aftermath?
laughs following that TED Talk?

Well, I think that the first thing was that a lot
of the things that Susan said inthat TED talk, she hadn't said
before, she'd said them aroundthe edges she'd spoken of them.
But all of a sudden, it was likefront and center. And it was in
on a platform that could easilybe shared and easily be be

(02:10:28):
witnessed. It was witnessed inperson by lots of folks that
were there in New York. And so,so, the thing is, that were said
all of a sudden had life tothem. And, and there was a
propelling kind of a momentumtype thing. And because she had
weaved, not only her ownpersonal story and some other

(02:10:51):
personal stories into it, butalso weaved the intention of
Enneagram Prison Project throughthe whole thing, it became quite
easy for people to, to pick upthe the energy of what it was
that we were doing, withouthaving to, you know what it was,

(02:11:13):
it wasn't a brochure, it wasn'ta website, it was a hey, go take
a look at this. And I know it's18 minutes long. But when you're
finished with the 80 minutes,you'll get a good idea of what
it is that we stand for and whatwe're doing.

And short Writing is hard writing, we had to
really hone our message in thattalk. And I hope what comes
through is that is what becameclear to us is that we were not
just talking about socialjustice or fighting against
things, we were talking abouthaving a system of caring about,
really having compassion, forthe lack of holding and what

(02:11:47):
happened to people in childhood.
That is the signature of whatEnneagram Prison Project
curriculum is all about thatthere's nothing wrong with any
of us. And that if we can havesome appreciation of what
happened first, we would have abetter way of healing in the
actual institutions. And thatwas what we were experiencing.
That's what we were resonatingwith what was happening in

(02:12:08):
Europe. And that's what we wereenvisioning to propel the
project forward. So we gotreally clear on our on our

message. And I don't know where he was just
after that, or maybe it was justa little bit before that, that
that we were that we got to knowGabor. So I think that's kind of
a another interesting point.

Well, we were, we were big fans, and we we kind of
stalked him. Who is he? Gabor MaTei is a Canadian Hungarian
physician who operates a worksout of Canada, an expert in
addiction and the author of manyincredible books in the realm of
hungry ghosts. And he had such acompassionate approach to

(02:12:57):
addiction when we got the, thegrant in Santa Clara, we were
required to have an approach toworking with addiction that we
didn't really have, we would saythings like, we're all fiercely
addicted to our personality,which is true. But we didn't
have an approach that wasgrounded in something. And we we
looked to Gary's work. And werealized that he was saying the
same things that we were saying,but in his own way, he was

(02:13:19):
saying, it's not actually aboutthe addiction, it's about the
things that happened, the pain,you know, and and what happened
to and people tried to, tomedicate themselves with, with a
substance or with a behavior tocreate the dopamine. And we
started to understand, wow, thisis such an important part of how
people are able to self regulateor not, and how we're able to

(02:13:42):
have compassion for ourselves.
So we wrote to him in Canada, hewrote back, we went to a
workshop he was doing inToronto, we invited him to
dinner. He said, Yes, wecouldn't really get over it. We
brought him a t shirt. I wasnever the Enneagram book. And we
invited him to understand ourcurriculum, what we were up to
he he was adorable, and, andinterested. And he didn't he

(02:14:07):
really didn't understand theEnneagram. But he could
understand that the way we wereexplaining it to him and, and
the overlaps to his approach.
And ours were were just veryclear. And then we invited him
to be on our advisory board. Hewanted to know what that
involved and we said what it is,which is we'd like your support

(02:14:29):
and understanding as we work inthis space, especially around
addiction. And he he said yesfrom the beginning.

He's a radical dude, by the way. And I mean that in
the best possible way. Hedoesn't have like a traditional
philosophy towards addiction. Ithink that's my, that's been my
experience at least. And he hehas, this is a quote by him that
that has helped me seeaddiction, and specifically like

(02:14:58):
substance addictionsdifferently. I ever had
previously because I didn'thave, I didn't have experience
with drugs or alcohol oranything like that my, my issues
were different. And his quote,that quote is, is that eviction
is not the problem. Andaddiction is the attempt to
solve the problem. And the firsttime I heard that I thought it

(02:15:19):
was first thing I thought wasyou trippin? Like that's
addiction is clearly like aproblem. Like I didn't, I didn't
fully understand until I thoughton it for a second. And, and
then I, I, I'm so glad I heardthat because it, it reframes for
me at least it gives me anopportunity to see differently,
how someone is struggling withwhatever substance that they're

(02:15:42):
struggling with, and that, youknow, okay, it's not it's not
greenlighting, you know, math,it's not saying math is okay.
It's but it's saying it's, it'ssaying differently, what the
real problem is, and that mathis the attempt to solve a
different problem that exists.
And I think that's I thoughtthat was wild. And the more I,
the more I chewed on it, themore it just made sense. And I

(02:16:03):
think radical can be scarysometimes. Or at least for me,
because I'm not comfortable withit always. And I'm glad, I'm
glad that at that I got to meethim and chat with him and hear
him speak. We went into prisontogether at San Quentin, you
know, heard him a little bitthere is not a normal dude.

Well, he would be probably honored to hear you say
that, because he resonated withType Four, when we went back
whenever we've been working withthe Enneagram. And, you know,
fours are a bit radical. Andthey're not trying to say the
popular thing, we needed aradical approach to be able to
de shame addiction. And that'swhat it does. His approach is
compassionate approach helpspeople to understand that
there's nothing wrong with them.
And when. And that's not enoughof the approaches is useful.

(02:16:52):
When gabber came in, and thatroundtable that you were part of
when we were in San Quentin, wesat in a circle as we are want
to always try to do and I wassitting next to Gabbert in the
middle of the circle, andcircles don't have an end. But
on the opposite side of it.
Somebody started the just tocheck in, which is what we

(02:17:14):
always do. And people werechecking in with, you know,
where are you above or below theline? And, you know, where are
you right now, and every singleperson brought gratitude to be
able to be in that room becauseit was a real privilege. It was
special. It was videoed, andthere was a lot of love in the
house. And people could feel it.
So people were honoring theproject. And a lot of people are

(02:17:34):
honoring me, because I've beenthere teacher for a long time.
But there are a lot of us. Andby the time that got together,
he checked in and he said, Youknow, I gotta I gotta say, I
kind of like why the hell isalways so grateful about Susan,
like, what about me? Or he saidsomething like that. And I think
that's where he had everybody.
Because that's the for namingthe real thing. And he did that.

(02:17:58):
Yeah, just just beautifully. AndI think his the rawness of gab
or there was another town hallthat we did that people can see
with where he has an exchangewith Jeff Limon. And Jeff, who
is a, you know, a shiningambassador had been through so
much work with us and had donejust has been so many speaking
again, engagements and panels.
And GABA, questioned him abouthis happy childhood, and he got

(02:18:22):
underneath something that Jeffhad previously not, not seen.
And he really has a way of justbeing on that edge and saying
the most provocative thing, andthat's what this project needs.
That's that

works. You mentioned that it was a requirement to
have the curriculum directlyaddress addiction. By I don't
remember the facility that yousaid, or maybe that's a
California thing in general,what is what is that? And what
is the? What's the what andwhat's the why,

I think, I don't know, if it was a requirement as
much as it was, as soon as wewere getting in there. To do
work in it was in San Jose,Santa Clara. And we've been
doing it now for a while therewas it was a grant, and it's
like, Okay, time to time to stepup our game a little bit. And,

(02:19:18):
and, and get a little more of a,we had had a curriculum, we'd
had a syllabus, we'd had allthis different these different
pieces, and then it was like,let's integrate more.

It wasn't maybe maybe a requirement is the wrong
word, but 92% of the people inthat facility are in for drug
related offenses. So we knewthat in order to get funding, we
were going to have to have asolution to address the problem
that the residents were dealingwith.

Right. And for those who might not know when you say
92% It's not directly that theywere selling or that they were
doing something that it could bethey were they were stealing to
support a habit or they weredoing this to support that or
that They were involved, and,and just distribution or
whatever. But all all basic 92%isn't everybody, but basically

(02:20:09):
everybody is there related tosomething to do with, with
substance.

And when we really got down to it, and we did start
to crack the crack connect thecurriculum like that we realized
how, how apt it What's thatactually all of us are addicted
to something. And when thepersonality is not cutting it,
we still want to feel okayinside of ourselves. So we reach
for something else that doestake the edge off and just like
personality, or substance orprocess addiction, it does take

(02:20:36):
the edge off, but then we'restill left with ourselves. So it
really worked.

I feel like you're about to say something, I wasn't

appreciating Susan.

Yeah, I have the pleasure of we're, it's only
audio so nobody else gets towatch. But you two are sitting,
you mentioned this last night onthe left seat. And I'm kind of
like across the room a littlebit like a few feet. And I get
to face both of you. And so I'mseeing founder VPP on this side,
Executive Director here, but Ialso see, husband, you're not

(02:21:10):
the husband, but husband andwife. And it's I'd love to watch
the like the taps on theshoulder and just like the non
verbal and the things thatpeople won't hear. So I just
want to call that out. Theamount of love that I see
between you two is it'sinspiring. And I think it's,
it's fucking cool. It's, there'sno other description for that. I

(02:21:31):
think for me, that's just it'sreally beautiful to see that
there's this going back andforth between talking about, you
know, the project and all thethings that the the structural
part of what the organizationhas, or the project is and what,
but then there's also like theselittle loving things that are
just happening. That's prettycool. And I'm glad I get to see

(02:21:55):
it. And I'm glad I'm not acouple 1000 miles away on a
screen watching it becausehonestly, if we were doing it
that way, you'd be on this endof the house and you he'd be on
that in the bow. So this is avery

this is this is nice. Thank you for naming it
clay. And also we joked that youdon't know the backstory to this
loveseat. And that is I think itwas 20 years ago, 20 or so years
ago, we were we were I was wewere in a different house. And
we had a like a sitting roompart of our bedroom. And I
wanted to get a chair for it.
And so we went shopping for one,and I really wanted to get a

(02:22:32):
chair and a half, which is likea you know, big chair for one
person. And Rick was like, buthow about a loveseat? We had a
lot of we've talked a lot ofsmack about that. We Chuck joked
and joked and we ended up withthe loveseat. And what do you
just, I think that that was whatI wanted at the time. And that's

(02:22:55):
what Rick wanted at the timesort of sums up a lot of kind of
how we are and Rick wantedsomething where we could hug
huddling together. And I was atthat time, kind of a lone
ranger, like I wanted my ownlittle spot. And I don't know
what happened to that chair anda half is gone. But the loves
loveseat has remained and I dosit this is my corner in the

(02:23:18):
house. But I think the thing I Iwant to note for the project is
that it would have been animpossibility to build EPP
without you that we have such aperfect complement of skill sets
and desires and things. Stuffthat you know how to do I will
never know and vice versa. And,and oftentimes we don't want to

(02:23:43):
do it the other person is doingand I feel like that's why so
much of this works. We care somuch about each other. We care
so deeply about this work. Andwe also really have worked hard
in our marriage to to bemarried. And I know that's comes
out a lot in coffee anddifferent podcasts and all of

(02:24:06):
that. And we just harken back toit because it's true. And it's
it's real, that trying to staypresent to the hard things like
raising young children andstaying in jobs that we don't
like and being able to make endsmeet when our passions are in a

(02:24:27):
nonprofit and all those things.
It's been a joy, and it's been alabor of love. And I'm really
happy to be sharing loveseat

Thank you. So this is where you tell us to take a
breath. I feel like often. Thankyou. Let's do that
so In the curriculum, when westart talking about addiction, I

(02:25:03):
want to go back to Dr. Montaignehis contribution to what we do.
Did you Did you notice? Well,first of all, just to be clear,
was there a point where thecurriculum didn't have that? And
now you just put a whole newpiece in? Or was it there, and
you just expanded on it? Whatwas it like? Adding, when you

(02:25:26):
met Dr. Matta, and all all thatcame from that, adding that into
the curriculum,

there were pieces, and it was gradual. And we and
as we added one teaspoon of it,we realized that it, it needed
more context with other pieces.
For example, when you start totalk about addiction, we need to
talk about attachment, and howthe basic, you know, building
blocks of personality come fromour childhood. And if we don't
have attuned, loving, presentcaretaker, to see us to help us

(02:25:52):
to feel our own worth our owndignity, then we start to shut
down to who we really are. Andwhen we shut down, we still want
to feel good. So that's that,you know, is the beginning of,
of the actual personality. Andwhen that's not working, there's
something else. So then we putthat context in there. And then

(02:26:13):
we started to talk about peoplewho don't have attachment, and
what does that look like. Andso, even after we put an
addiction, and we started totalk about the brain and
attachment, and what happens onthe inside and how the brain,
you know, not getting what itwants and needs. That's that's
the effects of neglect. We didthat for a while. And then there

(02:26:34):
was a moment where I reached outto GABA, and we had been looking
at the adverse childhoodexperience, study the ACE
questionnaire. And I asked himwhat he thought about putting it
into the curriculum. And he hadno hesitation, he said, it's,
it's a great idea, of course,you'll need holding around it,
but it helps people tounderstand in a very quick way,
helps them to not negotiate theactual things that occurred and

(02:26:57):
the impact of them. So I thinkthat was sort of the end cap of
what we were adding. And once wehad that, we realized we had
something quite solid thatworked. And, and it didn't just
work in prison. It also workedwhen we piloted in Los Gatos
High School, for example. Andso, it felt to me like that,
that approach, rounded out whatwe were doing in prison. And it

(02:27:22):
also was a nice segue into thenext population that we were
heading into, which was thegeneral public.

So how exactly you know, I actually forgot about
when you went to the highschool. And I think, you know,
from my perspective, I learnedthe anagram Enneagram. In
prison, I met all most of thepeople. At least early on, I
knew a lot of people who knewthe Enneagram from prison. And

(02:27:56):
it's not funny, it's not theword. But it's interesting to me
to think of this, like what Iconsidered a prison program. And
now you're talking to highschool students? How do you make
that transition? And I knowthere's a lot of, there's a lot
of overlap between the pain of,you know, being a prison inmate

(02:28:17):
and the pain of being like ahigh school student. I've was
miserable both times, by theway, when I was each of those.
And so, I know, there's probablya lot that that can cross over.
But surely there's some thingsthat are inappropriate for that
population that might I don'tknow, is that true? Even what
how do you how do you go from aprison program? And how do you

(02:28:41):
tailor it for for a high schoolstudent without watering it down
so much and making it into canBarney and Friends or whatever,
you know, I don't know?

Well, it was a grand experiment. We had that
same question. We wondered, alot of people had been asking
us, can you this program, andthe curriculum could go here, it
could go there. What do youthink, and we absolutely had
intentions of ending up there.
But the opportunity in highschool was the first one we had
and we didn't know. So we we hadbeen going in as a volunteer. My

(02:29:10):
kids were there. And they neverwanted me to be in their
classrooms. But I got to befriends with Tiffany ham, who is
an angel on the inside ofanother institution just
happened. This one happened tobe a public high school. And she
loved the Enneagram. And shealways welcomed me into her
classroom. And the kids alwaysunderstood exactly what we were
talking about. And thegraduating seniors who started

(02:29:32):
who were using the Enneagram.
She also had her kids do a writetheir own TED talk. She played
mine and then they came in and Italked with them and then they
they wrote their own life storyor life purpose. And then the
graduating seniors who were 18got to come into San Quentin on

(02:29:53):
a field trip. And so that wasthe sort of runway that we paved
for coming in to actually do apilot and There was just so it
was, it was so crystal clearthat this was going to be
impactful that this work belongtogether that the school to
prison pipeline was somethingthat we could start to
understand by being in a schooland. And so we just started, it

(02:30:18):
started a lot of the same waysthat we just started in Belgium.
And we just started, we didn'treally have a violin or we had a
workbook, we had a thumbs up,and we got a grant from the town
that paid us to take about 220,juniors and seniors. And so we
went, we took six classes.

You said high school field trip into prison. And
that's normal for us. And Ipromise somebody heard that and
go, wait, what, maybe evenrewind it to see if they
actually heard that. And I know,you clarify that they did those
who are 18, because that's justhow old you have to be to go
into jail. Voluntarily. You cango at any age otherwise, but

(02:31:02):
what field trip to prison?
Sounds pretty wild, especiallytaking in a bunch of, you know,
teenagers. What was that? Like?
Like? I? That's what I want tohear about?

Yeah. Well, it wasn't like anything else. I
would say that I had a sneakpreview, because I have my two
oldest kids had been coming into San Quentin a couple of
times, before with me throughthe project, that have been
volunteering to doing differentto do different things. And I
had experienced them, justseeing it through their eyes,

(02:31:37):
and then hearing them on the carride home. And then that really
came into our dinner tableconversations. I knew it was
very impactful. I also knew itwas okay. And I had been
teaching in San Quentin foryears, the men in blue are so
respectful, so honoring ofanyone that came in and they
absolutely fell off their chairswhen they found out that I had
brought my own children in. Andthey

that's unusual to say the least by though people
don't do that.

Yeah, not everybody gets to experience
what what happens in San Quentinand other institutions, too.
It's not only there. But that'sthat was where we had access.
And so I knew it was going to bemagic. And I it was a classic
example of following the greenlights, because all we did was

(02:32:26):
put it out as an offering. Wehad Steve Emmerich inside of San
Quentin, who was another angelon the inside, who was the
Community Resource Manager andeverything was on the up and up,
everybody had to be cleared,they all had to follow the dress
code. A lot of them didn't andthen couldn't. I'll tell you
about that. And then we. So wehad to have a whole bonafide

(02:32:48):
visit. And it was a lot ofcoordination, a lot of licensed
numbers and getting that and Iknow it's hard enough to get
kids to turn in their homeworkassignments, nevermind that kind
of security clearance. But theydid. And on the day of they all
showed up in their cars dressedall in black, because we said
you know, you can't wear theseseven colors. So might as well

(02:33:10):
just wear a black. That's a realthing. By the way, it's a real
thing. But inevitably, some kidsshowed up in shorts, that wasn't
going to be okay. Or sweatpants, no sweat pants, no denim.
And for high schoolers, that'slike, Well, what else is there?

And it's not just a matter of look, the look the
part it's you can't wearanything that they might be
wearing on the inside. Becausethings happen. Yeah, you can't
come out with those clothes.
Because theoretically, if I if Iwent in with blue jeans or
whatever, or if I went in withsomething that they couldn't
wear, I could swap with them,wear out their clothes, and now
they have street clothes, whichis obviously not something you

(02:33:43):
want for someone who'sincarcerated, if you're if
you're worried about not lettingthem out or something like that,
so

and you can tell people that till you're blue in
the face, but some people itjust doesn't compute. And then
inevitably, people end up within the parking lot when the
wrong thing. And I think it wasErin West who actually drove to
target bought somebody anotherpair of pants or a different
shirt or something and came backand we really worked hard to get
everyone in because we knew howspecial it was going to be. Do

you remember about that part? I just remember. I
mean, it happened. I think itwas two or three times where
this end of year thing happened.
And the other thing I think isimportant to note is that no one
comes no one visits the ourprogram as a visitor, everyone
is a participant. So that's,that's a clearly stated thing.

(02:34:36):
If you're coming to any program,whether it happens to be in San
Quentin or any other place thatwe're doing this, you are you're
you are going to be askedquestions and you're going to be
put on panel and you're going tobe you know, you're gonna be
part of the part of the class

you're not just in an audience watching a show,

right? This is not that's it's not that at all. In
fact, they were on the panel,right and and There were some of
the some of the kids and everyone of the things that we did
sat on panel, and the panel wasmade up of San Quentin folks and
high school kids. And thequestions were not, you know,
they were not softballquestions. They were questions

(02:35:15):
about, Hey, what is what's itlike to be your particular type?
And? And what are some of thechallenges of your particular
type? And,

and the tell me about the prison made for you in
childhood? Right.

And, and the lovely. I mean, the thing that's
magic about it is to still tohave people's eyes just go wide?
Well, as people start torecognize the humanity of the of
the exercise, and that thequestions and the answers, you

(02:35:48):
know, are so

David Daniels (02:35:50):
similar.

And they see each other in each other. It's really
magic. And it's in the otherthing that's interesting about
the San Quentin setup, at leastfor the ones when the when the
18 year olds were coming in, wasthat, in that particular room,
everybody, there was about 60men, and they all sit in a

(02:36:13):
circle. So it's a pretty bigcircle. And so imagine, you
know, 40 5060 men plus 20, highschool kids, plus some
chaperones, plus guides, plus,it's a big old circle, huge
room. But everybody can seeeverybody, there's nobody hiding
back in the back row. It's justone big circle. And then when we

(02:36:34):
do panel, it's, the circlebecomes a half circle. And the
panel is at the front. There's afront.

So so when you when you have there's, I have so many
questions about the I wish Icould talk to some of the I say
kids, young adults who wentmaybe one day, I wonder, I'll
just throw out a bunch of thingsthat I wonder and you can pick
whichever. Were there. Werethere some who were excited, and
then got there, and then weresuddenly like afraid, or were

(02:37:03):
there was there no fear? Andwhether you know anything to
that to that side? And also,how, how much does a high school
student, a young, a young adult?
How much do they do they? Youmentioned, there was a lot of
similarities between the answersgiven regardless, that was one

(02:37:23):
of the students or one of theone of the, the, the residents.
Yeah. And I wonder it Hi, when Iwas in high school, I couldn't
have answered as honestly as Ican now about some things. And
part of that was because Ididn't want you to know. And
then the other part was, Ididn't know. So there are things

(02:37:44):
that I can tell you now about myself, currently or as myself as
a child that I couldn'tarticulate when I was a high
school student. So how doesthat? How does that look, in
your experience with withworking with the high school
students, when you're asked whenthey're paneling, or whatever?

Well, I think they had a little warm up, because
they've been working with theEnneagram for the year. And they
really love it. They and theirtextbook is the same textbook,
the wisdom of the Enneagram, inthat book is a good one. So
people really were already intheir classroom on a panel
already had been self disclosinghad written their TED talk, they
were in the curriculum, too. Andthat's why I think it wasn't as

(02:38:25):
I don't know what to do withthis question, they knew what
the currency was in the room wasto be able to drop in and be
okay with not knowing and doyour best. So I remember one
panel in particular, or as a twopanel, and then I think there
was only one two that I recallfrom that class. And she was
tiny. And she was flanked by twoother. So the panel of five, two

(02:38:45):
other men on either side of herand she was right in the middle.
And so we had the questions. Andyou know, we're trying to we're
trying to bring out, first ofall, what's beautiful about the
type? And that's the hardestquestion to answer. And so you
have two men on either side ofher talking about, you know,
that twos are here to come toteach the rest of us about love.
And they're giving real lifeexamples about how that's true

(02:39:07):
for them. And we want people toto answer that. And then they're
also talking about how do youget in trouble with your
personality? And And oftentimes,people take that answer, and
they talk about what landed themin that institution. And so
somebody was in for murder, andhe's talking about that and that
and then it comes to her. Andshe has definitely never heard
that kind of answer before, ormaybe entertained those exact

(02:39:29):
questions. But what she did wasget really flustered and not
really have so quite quite thething. And they stayed present
to her. We all the whole roomwas a container for her. That's
how we teach and how we roll.
And but in particular, hercompadres that were in it with
her stayed very available, andand you don't need words to be

(02:39:53):
able to convey that and she gotto a deeper answer inside of
herself. And as she came up Thatpanel, she was just in a flush
of just it's kind of elated atjust what had what she just
experienced. And it doesn'treally even matter the details
and that was the the way thateverybody kind of moved through
the room, it was only two hourclass, you know, we break up and

(02:40:14):
dyad exercises. Usually when weteach the type twos, we ask
people to sit and turn knee toknee to the person opposite them
and not say anything, but tojust make eye contact for two
minutes. And think about that,how much can transpire? And how
present we know much presence asRuss, I love to quote him who
who asked us this a long timeago, and which presents can you

(02:40:36):
tolerate? And so when we, whenwe actually collected ourselves,
and we got out of the room, andwe're going all the way out? We
sort of wrote a wave of how, andit went all the way out into the
parking lot to I want to answersomething, though, that you
asked about, because I don'tthink there was anybody no, none

(02:40:58):
of the kids were like, I'm notgoing to nobody was chickening
out, everybody was reallywanting to be there. There were
people that just didn't show.
And they had whatever HighSchool happens, right. And they
had things that conflicts thatcame up. But when they heard the
report, the next day from theother kids, they're like, I
can't believe I missed that. Iwill say there were probably a
few parents that had someconcerns, they had to obviously

(02:41:21):
sign a permission slip. And wewere coming out coming out of
the classroom, this long walkfrom the class to the the, one
of the clearance checkpoints ata gate. And then you go through
something that's called a sallyport, which has a big gate and
and you enter into the, the inbetween space, there's another
gate. So you're sort of like inthis between holding space. And

(02:41:43):
everybody has to show their ID.
And so there's a lot of us, youprobably have 30 people in that
Sallyport is a very big one. Butthe gates are no joke. And they
claim. And so we've already gonein through this. And now we're
coming out through it.

Kind of medieval It feels very old and loud and
aggressive kinds of doors. Yeah,

it's it's, it's no, it's big. And as we're in
there, you know, we're allholding up our IDs. And the CEO
who's behind the glass said isEmma with you do we have an Emma
Jones, I can remember theperson's actual name. And I'm
like, What is going on? No oneever talks to us in there. We
only ever show our ideas and wego in or out of never stopped

(02:42:21):
and all the years have gonethrough. And one of the students
is like, um, yeah, that's that'sme thinking.

You don't get to leave. I'm sorry. You messed up.
When he

says to her, your dad is on the phone. And he
picks up the phone. No, no joke.
It's got like a cord on it. Andhe takes it through the looks
like those mail. You know, likethe guy at a gas station, little
metal door that comes out. Hedidn't you know, there wasn't
like he puts it through thething. And she takes it back
out. She's She picks it up. Shegoes, Hi, Dad. No, I'm in San
Quentin. And he just wanted totrack her down.

She says he says, No, I told mom. That was the
quote that I was like I toldmom,

that's I would love to hear the rest of that story.

You I'm sure there was a part to that story that we
never got a hold of. But thatwas the that was the part that
was the intro. That was

the most trouble anybody got into in San Quentin.

I'd be terrified if I was going through the
Sallyport. And during theduring, you know, we're
especially on the way out. Andthey were wanting to ask. It's
great to me clay Tumey Are youhere? Like no, he's not.

There was one of the only one other time like
that, that I got a call when Iwas at the Hoover Dam from Steve
Emmerich. And Steve never evercalled me. I didn't think he
even had my phone number. And itwas because one of us had taken
our brown cards out and notgiven it back at the door like
we're supposed to. And thosethings never leave. So that was,
you know, you don't often getstopped if you get stopped. It's

(02:43:52):
because they have a question.

What is the brown card?

It's like a passport. It lets you get in and
out of San Quentin, that showsthat you're a volunteer with
clearance so that you don't haveto get re cleared every time you
can have it for a year or acouple of years. Yeah.

And trained. Yeah, yeah,

it's a it's not just hey, can I have one as you get
certified? You go through? Idon't know the process. I don't
I don't I don't have one. Idon't even know if I can get one
can I as a felon? I don't knowwhat the process is. But it's
not just like a regular, youknow, thing.

Right? You're basically that particular thing
says, you're a volunteer withthis organization. But actually,
you're more than a volunteer,you're actually in charge of
your volunteers, right? Soyou're going to be bringing
other volunteers in, and you'rein charge of them. And if you
know any, so you need to knowall the rules. And you need to,
you know, be if anythinghappens. It's on you as the

(02:44:46):
brown card holder.

So one more question quick about the high school
program and then we can moveforward is, is that something
that stuck around? Did we do?
Did we do a second, thirdfourth,

we weren't able to finish pilot because of the
pandemic. So we stopped in Marchof 2020. And then we actually
just were awarded a grant to goback into Los Gatos High School
in 2020, to 23, to pilot our,our program again, and we're now
in the process of looking at isthat 191k? What will that look

(02:45:20):
like? So we're really excited tobe back. And we're gonna do that
again in the same social justiceEnglish class.

I didn't know that.
That's kind of cool. Yeah,really cool. So in the next
school year, that's right, forthe whole year, for the whole
year, and that'll be weekly.

It'll be all Yeah, weekly for for two classes.

That's pretty cool.

Anything we want to say there before we move
forward?

I just I just want to say it, it's interesting,
because the way that actuallythat came about is the way that
lots of things come about, whichis somebody did in this case, it
was Susan does the same thingthat happened in Elmwood, Susan,
volunteers somewhere, and thenat some point, and then it gets
to a certain critical mass. Andthen people are like, let's do

(02:46:06):
it for more people. Let's do itfor and then and then, you know,
so it goes from two classes acouple for a couple of years.
And then it's like, 220 kids,right. And so now with 220,
kids, you have to have four orfive guides to go do that. The
same thing had, like I said, thesame thing happened in Elmwood,

(02:46:26):
when we were in Elmwood, Susanwent and she volunteered there
for a couple years, before weactually got a grant to be able
to do. It wasn't just Susan,Susan did it for a while. And
then Susan Suzanne, DavidDaniels, and he was a again,
this this whole, that's justkind of the way, I've been the
way how do you get a grant?
What's the process for that?

To get funding to do these programs in either gels or
high schools or wherever?

So there's so many different ways. Usually, what
what that is, it's all about isit's, you know, someone is
saying that we have some amountof money to put towards some,
you know, set of programs. Andso then you have to say, Does my
particular program meet theseparticular requirements? And

(02:47:14):
then to be able to describe thatin a way that the people who are
awarding it to say, yes, we wantyou. And the things that they
look at are how, you know, doesthe program meet their needs?
But the other thing they look atis like, you know, what, what
kind of organization? Are you?
What, you know, what have youdone in the past? What are your,

(02:47:35):
what, you know,

what would you say you do here,

right? What are your What are your Bona fi days
what it would? What says that?
What, how can I sound? There's alot of cya stuff in there, too.
Right? It's like, How can I feelcomfortable signing this
assigning, signing off on this.

So just to reset the point of the podcast is to tell
the story of EPP. And it's been10 years in the making
officially, today on April 12.
Or whenever this goes up. We'reactually at the end of March
when we're talking. And we'vewe've covered a lot. What have
we missed? I mean, we we'vegotten all the way up to the
pandemic a little bit. Are thereany pieces along the way that we

(02:48:16):
haven't covered? Or anyquestions that we might not have
answered?

I think there's two big things that happened that,
that I would love to just justreflect on. One of them is the
IEA conference in Cincinnati.
And the other one is the IEAconference in Oakland, because
those were really the first twoconferences are the first times
when we actually brought a lotof people to a conference, and

(02:48:42):
it would be good became a placefor us to, to be in community
with each other as well as to bein community with the, you know,
the larger Enneagram community.
Which one was first? Cincinnatiwas first.

That was in 2016 1718 18. Yeah. 20 Do you
have the list? Because I, so Ican sound

in Oakland was 2019. Yeah. And, and yeah, and
it was was both of those were?
Those are. Those were big dealsfor the for the, for the
community for the organization,as a whole because there was a
was really we traveled with alot of with a lot of folks and

put a number on that. And when you say a lot of
folks, are we talking half adozen 10 I was there. So I

think the number I think we had, you know, when we
were gathering in Cincinnati, Ithink we had like 25 or 30
people that went to theconference. And then when we
went to Oakland, it was a lotmore because there was just, you
know, we were in our backyard,right? So lots of people were
able to come and in the Oaklandthing we also did the Blue

(02:49:56):
Bottle events after you know,afterwards and then went and did
a huge symposium thing at St.
Quentin. And that was a bigthing that happened after the
conference. So it was those aretwo big. And, and, you know, I
would be remiss if I didn't saythat the, the, there was a
really lovely, you know, thingthat lots of people have

(02:50:17):
reflected on where we met up ona patio in Oakland and and just
in spent hours, just incommunity. So

that's, that's my, that's my, I'll say my second
favorite memory of anyconference, and possibly
anything EPP related was thepatio of it. So it was the
Saturday night party whereeverybody does, you know, all
that, except me, I don't dothat. And I actually went and
just sat down, and somebody cameand sat down with me, then

(02:50:50):
somebody else, and then somebodyelse, and then somebody. And
then hours later, there was,gosh, what 30 People out there
probably, there was the wholepatio at this hotel was was all
our people, couches, you know,whatever, whatever,

couches, fires, yeah, plenty of refreshments it
was

so it was so cool.
And it was so late into thenight of just talking and
sharing and nothing formal.
There was no, like, you know,director saying that this is
what we do next. And we werejust hanging out, having a good
time and just saying stuff thatwas important to us. And yeah,
there was tons of laughs, ortons of tears. And it was a good

(02:51:32):
memory. Yeah. And I think

that that was that was one of those places where we
started to recognize or realizethat, actually, we're not
growing an organization. Itmight it might have, you know,
we might be saying that we'regrowing a 501 C three
organization, but we're notactually growing an
organization, we're actuallygrowing a community. We're part

(02:51:57):
of a community. And, and thenthat's it, there's a difference.

I always would say that a little differently, which
is that EPP is growing all ofus,

Unknown (02:52:06):
it's true to

what is the difference between organization
and community?

Flip a new year and ask that question. I think that
organization is I did I mean, Ihave only just kind of reflect
here, I think the organizationhas a structure that feels we
can we can all fall into astructure that we understand

(02:52:33):
with regards to an organizationor corporation or something
where we're like, oh, I play arole. Or I have a, you know, a
small part or something likethat. But when you start talking
about a community, community hasreally connection at its at its
core. And yeah, and this, this,this concept of, we've been

(02:53:02):
playing around with this conceptfor the last couple years, as
we've been going through, youknow, the teal stuff is this
being and doing and, and, andhow, in an organization, there's
so much didn't needs to deliveryour where you focus on the
doing. And in a community thereis there's really like, a lovely

(02:53:26):
focus on the being doesn't meanthat things don't need to get
done, it just means that theyget done through the being, to
quote Halida

The doing does get done in through the Bing.

Unknown (02:53:39):
That's truth. Right.

And I think that there's this other part, which
is like it actually there's likea higher order to this, where
when, course, class courses,and, you know, classes are
important, all these things thatwe're doing are important.
They're important becausethey're, you know, their ways in

(02:54:04):
which we're in the world and indoing the work that we're
supposed to be doing. And, andthe people that we're that the
people that we're doing it with,we're enjoying that part, it's
this enjoy the ride kind ofthing. And it's so lovely to be

(02:54:26):
in spaces, where you're like,Oh, I I really, I love the
people that I get to be inspaces with and be in the work
with. I love them and I lovebeing in those spaces and and so
there's, there's this there's arespect and a and a compassion
for for everyone that we get tobe and I think that it comes

(02:54:49):
back for me to that to thatpatio. It's like Oh, that's
right. Really, really love eachother and want to be in the
space together. And we don'twant to go to bed, even if it's
two in the morning or three inthe morning who don't? Well, we
don't want to some people peeledoff because he started falling
asleep on the patio. But youknow

think that the makeup and the high functioning
of our board of directors isreally noteworthy. And we are
tiny. We're only a board of,we're only a board of five. And
Eric's been with us the longest,I guess next to me. And I really
enjoyed listening to his podcastI enjoyed.

Unknown (02:55:39):
The way that

he came in, was because of our connection. And
because our of our understandingas parents, right, our parenting
is in the curriculum orparenting is in the, the bones
of, of ultimately how all thisstuff works and gets worked out.
And we we've grown very, in tinyincrements, but with big leaps,

(02:56:07):
when we think about the peoplethat have come in, and each new
board member has brought so muchto the project. And we we are at
this place where we just wedon't want to change a really
good thing. But the addition ofAlex Senegal to the board really

(02:56:28):
did a number of things. And Ithink as soon as it happened, we
all wished it had happened manyyears sooner, but I don't know
that it could have. And I thinkthat Alex, first of all, Alex
saying yes, because it is achoice to take up the invitation
to become a member of the Boardof Directors hadn't been on a

(02:56:50):
board before and didn't knowwhat that entailed. And I would
like to hear Alex share whatthat was like for him. But to I
fell in love with Alex as ahuman being when I met him when
he was in Elmwood correctionalfacility. And I already
mentioned in here how he wassent to prison. And actually
after Vic got out, I asked himto help me find Alex and he did

(02:57:10):
because he's always been thatkind of special soul. He's
always been someone who reallywas a fixture of this project,
even when he was on the insideof our community. And he, he had
to do a lot to find his way backafter after escaping a life
sentence honestly and findinghis way back into the world. And

(02:57:33):
by the time he came onto theboard it represented represented
how solid he was inside ofhimself how much this work
works, how much he it fills iswhat I want to say it filled a
place. That was a massive gap.
It was a lot like Sue Lambertcoming into the faculty. It was
a place where we started to seehow much leadership mattered to

(02:57:55):
the people who are the heart ofour project. We say often that
the ambassadors are the heart ofEPP. And there was a question
that we had on a townhall manyyears ago, where someone had
asked this question I saw comingand I knew I didn't have a very

(02:58:15):
good answer to the question. ButI was going to answer the
question anyway. And thequestion was, how do you empower
people of color to haveleadership roles within the
organization? And I fumbled alittle bit with the question I
talked about how we aspire tohave people on the inside, come
out and train with us and becomeguides and go back in. But I
didn't have a clear pathway inmy mind. And I didn't have a

(02:58:37):
good answer to that question. Iinvited an ambassador invited
Rene to speak to it. He alsosort of stumbled with the
question. I took it back. Andthen later this, I got we got a
lovely. And I do mean that wegot a really thoughtful email
from the person who posed thequestion saying how the lovely
Susan Lessig. And then she usedthis word microaggression. And

(02:59:00):
how I asked an ambassador toanswer this question that I
didn't have an answer for. Andit really gave me pause. It made
me wonder why I didn't have agood answer in the first place.
And I wanted to go get a goodanswer not so that I would have
it but because of that we wouldbe it. And I also wasn't about
to go rushing to put people inleadership roles. We're an

(02:59:22):
aspiring to organization, weactually don't have a lot of
hierarchies, but there are somenatural ones in the board as a
function. So when Alex said yes,it helped me to realize how much
representation of ambassadors atthe board level had always been
missing. Like when Sue came onto faculty, and every time there
was a discussion and Sue was nowin the room, we could realize

(02:59:44):
that that ambassadors weren'tgoing to be missed there for the
what we what we say we valuewouldn't get omitted. And it was
just until we had that happen.
The other things in theorganization that are now
happening.

(03:00:05):
We're also missing. In otherwords, now we've because of
these, these two very importantleaders in our organization who
we met on the inside, now, wetry to have an ambassador in as
many meetings as we possibly canwe try to have ambassadors as
much as we can, in our publicprogramming, we try to have
ambassadors in the main roomhave a path of freedom, we do

(03:00:26):
the ambassador, bring theambassadors into our guide
training program, becausethere's something that you can
say clay that nobody else cansay, unless they've lived
through incarceration. So I justfeel a lot of gratitude for Alex
for being willing to be patientfor us. And also for Alex being
patient with himself until hehad the readiness to, you know,
for all of that to sort of cometogether.

I am finding over the last couple years, as we've
continued to lean in, more andmore into bringing ambassadors
into different spaces, just thisincredible amount of lived
experience that gets to be bepresent in in all the spaces and
how it's so informative. Andit's so it, it builds on itself.

(03:01:09):
So because it is, it's, it's soclear, when it's not there. And
it was something that as you'resaying, Susan, it felt like it
will maybe it wasn't that wedidn't have the way to make it
happen before. But maybe maybewe did. But certainly when I

(03:01:30):
came alongside of like, startingto do the invitations, it was it
was exactly right. And the morethat that happens, the better
the more grounded the projectis.

I have this tiny sense of pride that I
experienced, as I hear both ofyou talk about that, as an
ambassador myself, because I I'mon a very short list of people
who was around 10 years ago. AndI can remember I've talked about
this plenty of times. So it'snothing new to hear this. But I

(03:02:06):
remember when there was just afew of us. And I remember
thinking, like, what's it goingto look like in the future? You
know, what's it going to be? Howdoes How will one become an
ambassador in the future? Andthings like that? And what
purpose are we going to serve?
Are we going to teach are wethere's a lot of like, things
that we would talk about amongthe three of us at that time.
And, you know, then maybe thefour of us or whatever, but it's

(03:02:30):
fun to hear you talk about allthe things, Susan about, you
know, faculty and staff andboard members and guides and,
and all the different thingsthat ambassadors are a part of
now. And you mentioned that anyany meeting, like, like, it's
almost like you didn't say this,but this is how it feels that

(03:02:50):
there's just this open door intopractically any conversation
where if there's not anambassador, there's, there's a
spot at the table. And it feelslike that, as an ambassador, I
absolutely feel that I'm justwelcome everywhere. And I feel,
and it's not like it's not likethe kind of it's not like a past
like, oh, there's you know, theexit give a shit about what I'm

(03:03:13):
saying, or my input. And it'snot just me. And hearing you
talk about, you know, path tofreedom and 91k and the
programming, and there there is,there's a spot in every, every
week, every class that happens,there's a spot for ambassadors
to be in there as exemplars oras whatever. And not only that,

(03:03:34):
but there is an ambassadorscheduling that so like Renee
schedules for nine p 1k. For theambassadors to be a part of
wherever there's a place to plugin an ambassador, and I've been
helping with the path tofreedom. So it's like, their
stuff to do. And it's just cool.
It's really, it's it's neat tosee. And I don't even know if

(03:03:58):
it's appropriate to say but Ifeel like saying it like these
are also not just like usvolunteering our time, like
we're being compensated for ourfor our time and our energy. And
it's, it feels like we don'tjust have a value in the in
terms of our opinion. But wehave like a we have a value in
terms of the project is givingus money for work that we're
doing, which is really cool. AndI feel like I just feel very

(03:04:24):
proud to know that that is thatis what I'm affiliated with as a
person. Like it's a big deal tome. And Alex is one of my
favorite humans on the planet.
And we could go for hours aboutjust how amazing I think he is
as a person, as a speaker, as afriend, as an ambassador as all

(03:04:45):
that. And it's, it's it's neatto see him just kind of thrive
and, you know,from our conversations, you
know, he's my buddy so We'vewe've we've chatted, and I know
there's some like technicallimitations where when you've
been locked up a certain amountof time, computers aren't that
easy. And there's some thingsthat you got to work through.

(03:05:08):
And so for some people, and it'snot to downgrade other board
members at all, but for somepeople, it's easier to step into
that role because of experiencebecause of expertise because of
whatever. And I don't know thatit's always easy for an
ambassador to step into a role.
That might not have beenanything that they've done
before. And I just have, I havea lot of gratitude, and pride,

(03:05:33):
and all the happy feels, when Ithink about that stuff. Because
the big damn deal. So I, I'm,I'm happy to see the other
ambassadors thrive in whatthey're doing. And I'm also
like, I remember, so clearly,when it was just a few of us in
a hotel room watching a videothat was about to be played, and
thinking like, it's a, it's gonefrom potential to reality. And,

(03:05:57):
and to me, that's, that's thestory of EPP, in this first
decade, is I don't think therewas a whole lot of doubt, at
least not from those who werethere, among us that the
potential was there. But thepotential potential turning into
reality is just cool to see.
Like, it's bananas, how manypeople there are? How many

(03:06:18):
people? You know, when we, whenwe thought that how can we copy
and paste? Susan, like, there'sonly one, Susan, we've talked
about this on plenty ofepisodes. So it's nothing new
that I'm repeating here that,like that was a real concern.
And that's it's not now. Andthat, you know, how can we copy
and paste data? Well, it's,it's, there's so many people,
there's so many other people whocan be themselves and we don't

(03:06:42):
need another Susan, we don'tneed another Rick, we don't need
another anything. We just needpeople as they are. And that's
what makes the project what itis. That's that's, I can't say
how special that is. Prettycool.

Well, it's a lot of gratitude to you for being
willing to stick around, becauseit's been anything but smooth,
right? We haven't had a file onanything that we've created,
before we got there. And yousaid yesterday that you you
know, you have this old story ofsomeone who who doesn't stick

(03:07:18):
around, but obviously that's nottrue. And you You did carve a
pathway for the others who havealso come, you know, alongside
behind you, and alongside you,and then have also gone into
different places. Like, I'd liketo just mention, again, thinking
about what Su has done becausewe haven't had another female

(03:07:38):
ambassador and we haven't hadanother ambassador who has taken
up so much of the curriculum,been able to teach it. So for
sue to be actually teaching inthe institution in which she was
formerly incarcerated ismagnificent. And not only that,
she is apprenticing the majorityof the guides who are now going
back into that same facility.
And she's like, we call her mamaSue, you know, Grandma Sue,

(03:07:58):
because she's, she's goteverybody under her wings, and
she's tracking everybody. Andshe is absolutely lit up and
full of joy to be in there. Andshe's amazing at it. So for that
to be a real pathway. I'm I'mactually also very, very
grateful for the question that Igot in that town hall that
really stopped me in my tracks,whoever that was shout out to

(03:08:19):
you. And I can go look you up,pick us if we find that out. But
I also am I'm glad that, thatthat's a change that has that
has happened. I really admireSue, for being that.

I don't want to get to the end. But do we do we have
more? I don't want to leaveanything out. Like it's as

long as there's a lot of things to be literally
left out. And I'm sure as wereflect back, you know, there
are places that we've been, youknow, there are people in
Australia and, you know, and inBelgium and France and the UK
and Canada and, and all aroundthe US, you know, the whole
stuff with, you know,Minneapolis or, you know, with

(03:09:06):
the Shakopee women's prison wehaven't really talked about, but
it's been another podcast and,you know, and Suzanne and
infill. And I mean, there's somany things, right, how do you
how do you? I mean, we, therehasn't been very much talking
about Viva and I mean, there's,there's so many people, and I
know that we're gonna leavepeople out, right. And then

(03:09:28):
they've, some of them have hadpodcasts like, you know, like
Laura and Robin and fed podcast,some of them haven't. Right,
like Halida. So, so it's it's aninteresting, it's an interesting
thing, just to, to know thatthis is one or two days worth of
discussions around someanecdotes that we can remember

(03:09:49):
and recall for others, andthere's lots of things that were
missed, and that have other, youknow, have resonance for others.

Well, the good news is there's the pod Cast does not
end here. And originally, youknow, I committed to doing a
year. And I didn't know that Iwould want to do it pass that
originally in the beginning. Andit's pretty easy to say that I
do, like when I keep goingforward with it. So you
mentioned Halida, she, she willbe one of the people that I

(03:10:18):
speak with soon. Don't knowwhen. And hopefully I get, you
know, over to the other side ofthe world and speak with Viva
and others that are over there.
And maybe one day Australia willlet me visit, you know, by the
way, I mean, the government, notour people, right, because we
know that I have an open doorfrom them. But Australia,
ironically, doesn't let felonsinto their country. So I poke

(03:10:39):
jokes at that every opportunityI get. And maybe one day, I'll
be, you know, allowed in there.
But I want I so we can continuetalking about the story of EPP.
And we can, we can pause here tocelebrate 10 years. And then we
can continue in the future tokeep telling all those stories.

(03:11:02):
But this has been three and ahalf hours worth of dialogue.
That's been very nice for me,I've enjoyed sitting down to
talk with each of you. Andthanks for letting me into your
home yet again, I have no ideahow many times up in here now. I
can tell you, there's a guestbook out in one of the one of
the halfway house or the henhouse, I forget which one where

(03:11:24):
I can say the first time I washere a long time ago. Thanks for
having me back. to chat with youboth. I want to know, in as many
words as you care to share whatit what it means to you, Rick,
to celebrate 10 years ofEnneagram Prison Project.

So

one of the things that I've been noticing as, as
we've been going through thispandemic, for sure, is that time
seems so elastic. And you know,looking back 10 years to a space

(03:12:16):
where, where it was, it was anidea and a dream for Susan, and
that we were trying to navigatea lot of different, you know,
personal and, you know, andorganizational things. It seems

(03:12:36):
a little bit like a blur. Wewere also at the same time
raising children and you know,and so that was there was it was
it was kind of like a blur. Butwhat it means to me, I think is
just that theI'm proud of Susan, for her
vision and and the you know,she's she has borne a very heavy

(03:13:02):
load over those 10 years, andwe've talked about so many of
the different things to makethis a reality. And, and I'm
really, I'm proud that I've beenable to play a part in what
wanted to transpire. And I'veit's been it's, you know, Susan

(03:13:22):
mentioned this whole, like EPPhas been growing us, I feel, I
feel like I am a very differentperson today than I was 10 years
ago. And not just because I havegreat more gray hair. It's
because it's because I have beenable to, in that in that decade

(03:13:45):
experience so much. So much ofthe people in our community, and
the love and, and really be ableto love myself in a way that
that wasn't, wasn't clear to meat the time. And it just became
clearer and clearer as I've kindof moved forward. And so some of

(03:14:09):
that I can put down to, youknow, just a little bit more of,
you know, me aging, but I'dreally feel what it feels like
because it feels like being inthe spaces and the intentional
spaces, and being able to reallystep up into a space where I'm

(03:14:29):
like, holding myself accountablefor my own emotional
responsibility and my own my owngrowth path has allowed so many
things to help happen inside me.
So I it's been it's been a blur,but I look back and I'm like I'm

(03:14:50):
not the same person I was 10years ago. And the project
itself has changed and has grownand

Unknown (03:15:00):
Yeah. And so have I.

Thank you. And also, Susan, I'll ask the same of you
but one other also like,question one way to go with that
because EPP this was yourvision. In the beginning, this
was your idea. This is what wason your heart. And, you know,
we're, we're a decade later andinto the, into the whole thing.

(03:15:29):
And I don't see any time in thefuture in the near future at
least that that's going to slowdown or stop. So I for you to
what is the EPP celebrating 10years of EPP mean to you? And
also, what is it that you wantpeople to know about Enneagram
Prison Project that they mightnot already know.

For a long time. I don't know when we stopped
saying EPP we're just in thestarting blocks. We sat there
for a long time. And then atsome point, I stopped saying
next I thought, Well, I thinkwe're out of the starting
blocks. We're definitely rollingand EVPs running. There's a lot
of EDP that that doesn't need meor Rick to run. And that's not

(03:16:10):
to say we're going anywhere. Butit's nice to know that things
don't need us because the wholeThe Division is really a success
when it can go on and on and on.
And I think at this point, I cansay it will. Because there are
too many other people who arepassionate about what we're

(03:16:32):
doing and have the know how andexperience and everything's all
so congealed together that Idon't worry about that. I don't.
And I feel like there's so muchmore to do. So, I think that
this the thing that people maynot know is that for a long

(03:16:53):
time, as I was having aconsulting life doing things as
Susan Olesek I call myself ahuman potential just because I
do see the human potential. ButI was always 150 feet deep
inside EPP in the prisons, doingall of that the pandemic has
really changed because of allthe things that we've talked

(03:17:13):
about. What hasn't changed isthe our desire to see the
Enneagram in more spaces andplaces. And I feel that the next
step for EPP is within theorganization of the human
potential lists with an S on theend the plural. And that's a
benefit corporation that Ifounded last year, that's now

(03:17:34):
also up and running. And it'slike an end cap for what's going
on with EPP. It's a way for usto take our compassionate
curriculum and have it beinfused into healing professions
like coaching like mental healthprofessions and like
facilitators for otherorganizations that might not
ever have this particularprogram in there, fill in the

(03:17:57):
blank. And so we're tradingguides and coaches and mental
health practitioners to be ableto have our Enneagram informed
approach that was inspired inprison, to take it into markets
all over the world. And ourvision is to democratize the
Enneagram and to connect peopleto the core of our shared
humanity. And when I say that, Imean, what we learned in prison

(03:18:18):
with You, what I learned inprison with, with Alex and with
Sue, and with Jeff and Renee andall the other ambassadors that
have come since then. And I feelthat there are places in the
world systems that are run bypeople who have all the
privilege and all the power andall the resources that need to
frankly pay for the program inorder to understand the value of

(03:18:40):
what they're getting. And thatvalue, when it is when there's
an exchange monetarily likethat, and a portion of the
proceeds can go back into socialjustice organizations like EPP
and who who will benefit fromfrom that and need to so I feel
like that's, that's the fullcircle that people may not know

(03:19:00):
is also currently happening. AndI'm really excited to be seeing
that part fill out. Becausethere's nothing like being
taught by somebody who got theirchops, teaching it in prison.
And I'm really proud of ourguides who can go and do that. I
see. Other coaches have thiscompassionate approach and their
coaching as well is I thinkthere's a such a big need, the

(03:19:24):
world is really hurting comingout of this pandemic. And we
are, we are not only not done,we see so many more places that
this is going to help people toreally bridge what we've been
seeing for for the last decade.
But the importance of connectingpeople from from both different
communities and our communityWeaver Halida Hatic has had such

(03:19:46):
a profound influence on how totie those things up together and
see the bigness of that and hereight way and I I can just feel
that that's the momentum thatwe're writing. So I It feels
damn good. I gotta say thatfeels I'm, I am proud of, of
what we've all accomplishedtogether. I'm I'm honored by the

(03:20:12):
ambassador's who said yes, onthe inside, when there were
there was nothing that we couldshow them. Nothing that we could
say, we could only share thefield of love and hope that was
enough. And it has been.

Well, congratulations, on 10 years of
Enneagram Prison Project beenpretty damn good as the fist
bump across the room and to eachother. And of course, that's
going to bring this episode toan end, almost. Thank you both,
again, for everything. I justwill just say everything.

You know, I've given I've been able to sit with
my thoughts a little more aboutthe community stuff that you
asked earlier. And I really feellike one of the things that's
been really lovely to watch,over this last couple years, is
the interconnectedness ofeveryone in the organization

(03:21:13):
slash community. And and I'vesaid this on a couple different
calls. But there's this thingthat's happening in our teal
aspiring organization, whereit's moving away from a
hierarchy, and it's moving awayfrom like a hub and spoke. And

(03:21:35):
it really is more of this, allthese cross connections. And I
just, I think that that is thething that there's, there's so
much magic there, when, when weget to when when people get to
have all of these differentrelationships, and the

(03:21:55):
relationships don't have to becentered

Unknown (03:22:00):
around,

you know, a founder or around an executive director
or around a board, that canactually be you know, so, so
spread out and, and all of thoseinterconnections actually makes
the fabric so much stronger. Andthat's something that's just
been sitting with me for solong. These last couple years,

(03:22:23):
we've been kind of going throughthe pandemic, and going through
our public programming, anddoing all this stuff with, with
having people in differentspaces. It's just an important
facet that I just want to justcall out. And how really that is
what what ebp is now is this isthis whole fabric of
connections, interconnections.
So that's what it was on myheart,

it feels like you're describing you started
off a little bit with a lovedone. And I think I'll end on the
love seven, which is two thingsI've learned about the law of
seven right out of the gate isthat nothing happens in a
straight line. And nothing staysthe same things are always
changing. And I know that whensometimes that happens over the

(03:23:10):
law of seven can refer tosomething that can happen over
just a few seconds or a fewdecades. And in this case, one
whole decade, I can see a an arcof different moments, shock
points, things that havehappened external to us where
that have called us intoourselves, to take a step
towards herself and to holdpresence and not reject the

(03:23:32):
moment so that we could becomesomething beyond where we were
in that moment. And that thatcontinues to happen. And I can
feel that in the especiallysince the pandemic when we have
changed so much about our modeland how we operate and how
people have been able to, to betrained and to take this work

(03:23:53):
back out into the world. We'reabout to see a scaling and an
expansion like we've never seen.
And I feel so excited aboutthat, like kind of holding hands
all of us and like let's justjump and go. And I I want to
stay so present, because I don'twant to miss any of it. Here's

(03:24:16):
the person who has put up withme the longest and who has
believed in me the most longbefore I could ever believe in
me. I like to think BarbaraWhiteside was my first Enneagram
teacher, and David Daniels andHelen Palmer and Russ Hudson and
Don Russo. And all of thosepeople who just understand long
before their students come tothem what it is they have a hold

(03:24:39):
of me of final word.

I matter I make a difference and who I am today is
important. Okay. Let's be clearabout that. I'm doing well. And
I'm doing it the right way. Andthat's because of the change
that happened when I was inprison. Without a doubt, there's
somebody there right now, itdoesn't matter how they got
there. It doesn't matter whythey're there. And it doesn't

(03:25:07):
matter how long they're there.
They're clueless to who they canbecome clueless, because it
hasn't been brought to them. Youhave a chance to help that
happen. If you're here and youcan hear me, this is your
opportunity to be a part ofsomething. Don't walk out until
you've fulfilled that chance.

(03:25:31):
Okay.

And thank you very much for being here today.

For more information about EPP, please visit
Enneagram prison project.org Weappreciate your time and
attention today. Stay tuned forfuture episodes, which you can
expect on the 12th of everymonth as we continue to tell the
story of Enneagram PrisonProject

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 14: THE Enneagram Prison Project (10 Year Anniversary Episode)

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Episode 14: THE Enneagram Prison Project (10 Year Anniversary Episode)

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