Episode 15: That's a wrap!

Clay Tumey wraps up the first season of the EPP Podcast with clips and commentary.

For more information about EPP, please visit EnneagramPrisonProject.org.

Episode Transcript

Clay Tumey (00:06):
Hi, my name is Clay Tumey and I am an ambassador for
the Enneagram Prison Project.
Over the past year, we've usedthis podcast as an opportunity
to tell the story of EPP as weapproached our 10th anniversary,
which we ultimately celebratedlast month on April 12 2022.
Today, I'm sad to announce thatthis will be the final episode

(00:27):
of the podcast. And also, that'stotally not true. I'm just
kidding. I gotcha. Sorry. Ithink that's funny, and I hope
you thought that was wanting tomaybe won't anyways. Hey, so
what's happening is clay, I wantto talk to you today about a few
things that are going to behappening with the podcast.

(00:50):
Moving forward, I also want toshare some of my favorite
moments from this first season.
And this, I guess you couldconsider this like a little
bonus episode before we beginSeason Two next month. And by
the way, season two willofficially begin next month in
June, it will be on the firstTuesday of the month, which is

(01:13):
June 7, and I'll go into somedetails. We're not going to be
doing the 12th of the monthanymore. And I think we're going
to try to do the first Tuesdayof every month. There's a truck
driving down my street right nowhopefully you can't hear that.
Anyways, this will be a veryinformal conversation. There's
no guest there's no anybodysitting across from me to have

(01:34):
conversation with just you justme having a little chat.
Now, no, this was this was onlygoing to be, or at least I said
in the beginning that it was itwas a one year commitment from

(01:54):
me. And I didn't know whathappened after the year was
over. I didn't have any plansone way or the other. And I
thought of it more of like,Yeah, I'll do the I'll do this
anniversary, you know, build upthing. And then I'll cross that
bridge when I get there as faras what happens after that. And

(02:15):
I can tell you that after a yearof talking to 20 plus very
interesting people that Iabsolutely love this, I'm
falling in love with sittingdown from people and hearing
their stories. And I have a veryunique role in the podcast and
that I feel like I'm basicallythe number one listener, like I

(02:35):
get, I get the I have thepleasure of listening to
everybody before you do. Butultimately, at the end of the
day, I still feel like I'm justa listener. And yeah, I get to
talk to and I play some role inediting and, you know,
processing and making sure thatthings sound just right. And,
you know, there's more to itthan only listening for me. But

(02:56):
primarily, I feel like, I justhave a front row seat to some of
the most amazing perspectives inthe game as far as I'm
concerned. So I love it. And Iwant to keep doing it. So that's
that's what's going to happen.
So what's going to be on theepisode today if there's no
guests clay? Well, I'm glad youasked. How about we just go back
through the first season inhere, some of the key points of

(03:19):
each episode. I don't know ifyou have any favorite moments? I
know I certainly do. The thingsthat people said that just hit
me like a ton of bricks orthings that I just thought were
funny. I have timestamps for alot of these things. And I have
clips that I've shared withfriends. I also remember in the
moment things that people havesaid that just were just that

(03:41):
just floored me. For for most ofthe first season of the podcast,
I talked to my mom, the day thatthe uploads, went, went live.
And so I had conversations withher about each episode as well.
So I remember a lot of thethings that she pointed out the
things that people said, andprobably most notably, the

(04:05):
things that were said by Phil,one of our guides in Minnesota.
And of course Russ, who was herein Dallas visiting and I had the
chance to talk to him. Soeverybody probably has their own
perspective or not probablyeverybody definitely has their
own perspective. And the thingsthat stuck out to them from the

(04:27):
podcast. And I certainly havemine and so if it's okay, I
would just like to share a fewquotes and I'll just play these
as clips. One right after theother with no context, I don't
think most of them will requirea lot of context anyways. So
yeah, let's have a listen at ayear and review of the Enneagram
Prison Project, podcast seasonone. I don't know how he's gonna

(04:51):
try to make that like a formalintroduction to this, but let's
just listen. We're gonna startwith Vic, back in episode one.
And we'll do This role from

Unknown (05:00):
I don't know if it was from the reading, I think it was
more or less than theinteraction between Susan and
the way that she viewed us andthe way that she felt the way
that she actually talked to meas a human being that right
there as part of the, thenotation in my head that they're
only said that there's hope. No,I mean, that somebody is
actually here for me, and notbecause they want to collect the

(05:23):
paycheck, you know what I mean?
They're sincere about what theywere trying to teach. And then
going back to the book, andactually reading the book, and
it's showing me a little bitmore about myself, but I mean,
in the classroom is where itgave me the most, I'll never,
I'll never forget that in thefeeling. You know, I tell her, I
will tell us over and overagain, and I'll tell anybody

(05:47):
this over and over again, eventhough she's like that lady,
she's right. I know, I did thework. But she showed up, she
saved my life, she gave me thatopportunity to take that step
into the unknown and figure lifeout.

Alex Senegal (06:06):
I remember distinctly when that aha moment
came to me. And when I was like,Okay, this sum to this thing.
Susan Harris shinjang, she waswanted to guess that came inside
the teachers. And she's a nine.
And at this point of time, I'm,I'm really trying to wrap my
mind around how this thingworks, and kind of figure it out

(06:27):
before I learn it. If that makesany sense.

Clay Tumey (06:32):
I totally does.

Alex Senegal (06:36):
And so she asked me this question, man. And it
almost brought me to tears. Sheasked me, What do I need? And I
could not answer that question.
Because I had not a clue. WouldAlex need it? Because Alex never
paid attention to himself. Andthat's when I was like, wow, the

(06:58):
you know, and it blew me away tothe point where I said, I would
never, ever not be able toanswer that question again. And
the only way that can happen isthat I pay attention to me, and
I start to know me that I startto be important to me. And
that's when they told theteaching started making sense,

(07:20):
the purpose and just the wholeground level. And the readings
even started making sense. Andit was real, you know, we can't
afford to forget where we camefrom. We can't afford to forget
the history as we move forwardinto the future. Because the
possibilities of what whathappened to someone else, it's a

(07:42):
reality for us, this is not athat might have been this, this
will happen. Yeah, that's how Iapproach it each and every day,
I'd be like, you know, what, ifI do this, if I make this
choice, this is what's going tohappen in which helps me make
the right choice. Because if Iput a choice in there that I

(08:04):
might the word, it might work,that means a too big of a gap
for me to do. And so I can'tafford that. So I knew and the
reality is, it may not happen toeverybody else. But this isn't
gonna happen to be

Clay Tumey (08:20):
like, I had no idea of how to go through life in a
healthy manner. I didn't evenknow how to identify when I was
healthy or unhealthy. So, like,for me, like all these little
basic, you know, things in lifethat people take for granted,
because it's easy for them. Likefor me waking up and making good
decisions, is it takes effort,you know what I mean? Like it's

(08:44):
hard work, right? Yeah. Like,that's what I'm saying. Maybe
I'm understanding a little bitby saying it takes effort, but
it's not easy. For me at least Ican't speak for anybody. And I
don't have that thing in mybrain, you know, and I say this
all the time, dude, like, I'mnot a different person, I just
make different choices. I don't,I don't always care about what's
right or wrong. You know, I justdo things that I think will be

(09:06):
fun, or will be good or will beinteresting, or whatever. It's
like this conversation, therewas no consideration about is
this a good idea or a bad idea?
It's just like, I want to do it,I want to do it. Now I'm doing
it. Right. So having theunderstanding of type and
knowing what it means to be, inmy case at Type Five, and how
that can work very wellsometimes, and how it could work

(09:28):
against me sometimes. It canmake life easy, it can make life
hard, like knowing more aboutthat has just made life easier
for me. Those are a couple ofsnippets from episode number
one, chopping it up with VictorSoto and Alex Senegal, two of my
fellow ambassadors. In thesecond episode of the podcast, I

(09:50):
sat down with Susan Lessig. Andlike I said, please correct me
if this is not accurate, but itdoesn't I don't like it was I
want to serve the incarcerated.
And this is how I'm going to doit. It was more like, I just
want to serve people. And oh, bythe way, they're inviting me to
prison. Is that fair to say?

Susan Olesek (10:12):
That's true. I didn't have I wasn't ever
seeking out how to get myself ina prison. I have always been a
social justice seeker. I havealways been somebody who feels
convicted by things that affectthe masses, and especially
things that are unfair.

Clay Tumey (10:29):
So what's going through your head when you're
like, Alright, I'm about to goin and do this thing. I

Susan Olesek (10:33):
honestly don't remember feeling. I don't know
if I can say any but much at alltrepidation in the way of the
prison part. The I wasn't, Ididn't feel scared by that. I
felt excited. I didn't feelnervous, like or apprehensive,
because of the fact that it wasa facility. I didn't feel any of

(10:54):
that. I didn't. I didn't. I didfeel really, really terrified
that I wouldn't remember theEnneagram enough, or that I
didn't know, all the stuff. Idid feel a lot of self doubt.
And yeah, all those all thosesorts of things. But in terms of

(11:15):
the prison part, I just feltvery sure that that was where I
wanted to be, and like kind ofimpatient to get there. I think
a lot of the hope that I feelwhen I'm on the inside is
working people who have been,you know, raised in childhoods
full of darkness and have reallydone maybe some very dark

(11:36):
things. I think it's that thattouch on a touchstone I guess
it's not that like a referencepoint for how bad things have
been able then, is what givespeople such equanimity on the
outside of her Ambassador saythis in their own way, all of
them. But like, I'm so gratefulfor how things are today,

(11:59):
because I know where I've been,and I have perspective on what
really matters. And I can feelmy own place and the world
because I know where I'm not.
And it's just, it strikes me.
And I think that you are someonewho's come through a lot of
dark, and you are someone who'shere to shed a lot of light. And

(12:23):
I love your voice. I love howyou're amplifying different
pieces of this project forpeople who might not have heard
all the little nooks andcrannies and turned over a few
stones today to

Clay Tumey (12:34):
play. Thank you, Susan. So Episode Three was EPP
goes to jail. And this is whenwe spoke with Neelam Wadhwani,
who was the program manager at acorrectional facility in
California. And I'm leaving outthe name because I actually
don't remember if we said it onthe episode itself. And

(12:54):
sometimes we can't say thosethings. But if you haven't heard
that episode, I would highlyrecommend going back to listen
to it. It's an interestingexchange. Because not only is it
nice to talk with Neelam becauseshe is she's one of our earliest
accomplices with EPP, she helpedus get in to the facility there,
she was a program manager. Sowithout her help, I actually

(13:15):
don't think it was possible toeven get in there. And at that
facility is where EPP met manyof our current ambassadors. And
one of those ambassadors, VictorSoto was on the call for that
episode as well. And there wasan exchange at the end is the
only clip I'm going to play fromthat episode, where you hear

(13:39):
Vic, just express gratitude. AndI'll only say that, and I won't
give more context, other than tosay that these things don't
happen. It's very rare thatsomeone who is incarcerated,
gets out and turns around and isthankful for someone who worked
at the jail, or the prison wherethey were locked up. As someone

(14:02):
who's been incarcerated myself,I can tell you, I don't have a
lot of favorable opinions forthose who worked for the state
who work for the federalgovernment, the people who work
at the prisons, in jails where Iwas incarcerated, I don't think
they're all bad people. I justdon't always have a lot of
pleasant things to say aboutthem. Because I don't genuinely,
or generally feel that they evercared about me. And so I think

(14:25):
that's part of what makes thisexchange so beautiful. And
that's why I would like to sharethat with you again today.

Victor Soto (14:33):
You know, the thing is, is like, if she wants to
take that step into lettingSusan in, you know, my life
wouldn't be the way it is now.
You know, so, you know, youdon't have a small part to play
in it. You really have one ofthe biggest parts to play in my
life changing events. Whetheryou can see that or not, because

(14:55):
you gave me the opportunity tomeet Susan gave Susan an
opportunity to meet me. And tohelp me, you know further on my,
my life and changing, you know,my behavioral patterns and my
thought process and learning howto trust. So if it wasn't for
you in the room like, honestly,this, the things you see about
my life and the way that my lifeis going would have been

(15:19):
possible because if he didn'tlet her in, then I wouldn't have
known

Unknown (15:23):
her. So, you know,

Victor Soto (15:28):
I just want to thank you for giving, you know,
guys like me the opportunity tofurther our life, and to see
what our life can be. I neverhad a chance to tell you that.
And I'm glad I could tell younow.

Clay Tumey (15:47):
Yeah, me too. The world is better with people like
Neela Motwani. And, you know,there are people who work in
corrections who are on our side.
Who are EPP accomplices, andeven those who we don't know who
aren't affiliated with usdirectly. They're still doing
good things and it's it'sactually it's, you know, just
full disclosure. It's hard forme to remember that sometimes

(16:10):
because I know what it's like tobe locked up and to just be
surrounded by people who justdon't give a shit. So thank God
for Neelam thank God for peoplelike Neelam and yeah, and
they're growing in numbers, bythe way. And it's been a
pleasure to meet a lot of folksalong the way. Who are, you
know, as I say, on our side,they're, they're an accomplice,

(16:33):
EPP accomplices, Episode Fourwas the reentry episode, this is
where I sat down with a numberof ambassadors to talk about
reentry, and specifically whatit's like that first day out of
prison, and some of the hurdlesthat you might face or how easy
it could be if you just say, I'mnot going back. And I'm going to

(16:56):
pay attention to what's in frontof me instead of what's behind
me. And there were, I think,five different conversations,
five different perspectives withambassadors. And I'm not going
to play a clip here. I don'thave any particular clips that I
want to pull in and drop here. Iwill say that that was that was
the first two hour episode thatwe did Episode Four reentry. And

(17:18):
it's worth it's worth a listen,if you haven't, if you haven't
heard those ambassadors storiesabout their first days, weeks,
months out of prison, then gogive it a listen. It's pretty,
it's pretty cool. Episode Fivewas a conversation with Russ
Hudson. And it was notintentional. For episode five to

(17:41):
be with a Type Five talking toanother Type Five, it just
worked out that way. Rosshappened to be coming through
town. On it. He was speakingwith some non EPP stuff. And I
actually don't remember,remember the details. I just
know he was here for anotherevent. And I messaged Thank you.

(18:03):
Thankfully, Rick Olesek knewthat Russell's going to be in
Dallas. And so I messaged rest.
And I was like, Hey, man, if yougot a minute, would you be down
to sit down? Sit down in frontof a couple of microphones and
have a chat for the podcast. Andof course Ross was like, Yeah,
sure. Sounds good. And, youknow, he's my buddy, we talked

(18:23):
about some Enneagram stuff. Wealso talked about some things
that I think most people havenever heard us talk about simply
because, you know there'sthere's not always a reason for
him to talk about locking peoplein a closet. And and and try it.
Well, I'll just let him tell thestory. Oh, dear. You can narrow

(18:45):
it down to three stories if youwant.

Russ Hudson (18:48):
Oh, my I you know, I would just the statue the
most. When I got a little older,I can remember them. Or when I
was a young kid. I did somecrazy ones. You know, I these
guys were trying to stealsomething from me and I locked
him in a closet and I taped uparound the edges and hooked up a
vacuum cleaner was trying tosuck the air out of the Mize.

(19:08):
That's a little mad behavioralproblem mad scientist style.
They didn't die and they didn'tdie, fortunately. But, you know,
I, when I was in the frenzy ofdoing that, I wouldn't have
minded I was just it was reallymad. But, you know, I just had

(19:29):
those kind of mad scientist kindof ideas. And you know,
sometimes it was simple. Youknow? When I was in junior high
I remember certain guys pickingon me and I had two things going
for me one was that some of thereally tough kids that were you
know, headed for a life ofchallenge, shall we say? They

(19:51):
always like we were both theweirdos were the outliers we
were the misfits. So they kindof looked after me When just the
kind of regular school bullieswho were just never interesting
people, the real badass kidswould take care of me and
sometimes take care of them ifyou know what I mean. Exactly.

(20:13):
So I had like a little posse,which was good,

Clay Tumey (20:18):
was good. And also good was the rest of that
conversation, because he alsowent on to talk about, he had
someone that was taking hislunch or eating a sandwich or
something like that. So hereplaced, replaced his food with
some things that he grew in alab, shall we say? And a lot of

(20:40):
those stories, you just don'treally get to hear from someone
like Russ in that setting.
Because, frankly, most of thetime, you're they're asking
questions about the Enneagram,or about things that are related
to the Enneagram, or Egypt orother things like that. And one
of the things that I find soliberating and enjoyable about
the podcast is that I don'treally have anyone that's

(21:02):
telling me, stick to theEnneagram. Talk about this talk
about that. It's actually reallynice to just sit down and say,
Hey, so yeah, sure. You're RussHudson, Type Five, master the
Enneagram, you know, Guru, allthese things. But what else do
people like not know. And soepisode five, we discovered a

(21:23):
lot of things about rest that wemight not have previously known.
And then also, I mean, theepisode was over an hour long.
So naturally, the Enneagram andother teachings do weave their
way back into the conversation.
So if you haven't heard thatepisode, I would just say, it's,
it's worth the Listen, I'll justunderstate it by saying that.

(21:46):
Episodes six and seven are whenwe started talking to guides, we
spoke with Camilla, Dana, andPhil, and Suzanne, across those
four episodes. And I think forme, this is when I started
realizing the impact that thepodcast could have. And of
course, with Russ and some ofthe things that he shared about

(22:06):
having self compassion, and someof the things that he said that
would creep their way into theconversations that I would have
with my mom, after the podcastscame out. A lot of those
experiences continued withepisodes six and seven, and
particularly with Phil, inEpisode Seven, where he spoke

(22:26):
about his life as not only anEnneagram guide and Enneagram
teacher, but also as a pastor inhis church. Yeah,

Phil GebbenGreen (22:34):
well, I was introduced to it by a Lutheran
pastor, so that I could sensewhat the good heartedness, the
spiritual groundedness that itfelt, but I still feel to this
day that the Enneagram comes outof so I mean, we could talk more
about this because it'sfascinating, but that like I, my

(22:56):
Christian theology, and EPP,theology, cosmology approach,
match, really, really, I don'thave like set aside, my
Christian faith, I do kind ofset it aside, I don't like even
the first couple of times inprison every once in a while, I
would try to make a littleconnection, partly because so

(23:17):
many of the women in the classconnection to what thank you for
asking connection between Iwould say something like, this
is the same kind of thing itsays in the New Testament
gotcha, when Paul says, partlybecause so many women in the
class in Shakopee are clearly inreally, we're really very

(23:37):
faithful Christian, faithfulkind of people. But every time I
it didn't feel good to me, evenif I thought that was a really
good connection, like it didn'tactually work in the class. And
so now, I don't talk about thatat all, when I'm teaching an EPP
but inside of myself, what likea highway two lanes going the

(23:57):
same direction.

Clay Tumey (23:59):
Yeah. And I will forever be grateful for Phil's
description there. And hisexplanation about how faith and
spiritual work can coincide. Andthey they are often going the
same direction right next toeach other, and there's no
conflict. And they don't get inthe way of each other and they
don't overlap and, you know, tryto direct the other one in a

(24:20):
different way or anything likethat. That's they're literally
just supplements for each other,which is a, which is a big deal.
It's a big deal for a lot ofpeople. And I really appreciate
Phil walking us through that.
And I don't know that I've evereven told him how big of a deal
that conversation was, for me,in particular because of my mom.
And, you know, I talk I talkabout my mom often and so this

(24:42):
is not likely the first timeyou've heard me say that, you
know, her journey with EPP inthe last year as has been pretty
neat been pretty cool, you know,gone through some of some of our
public programming. And, youknow, that began with the
podcast I think and a lot ofwaise and hearing Russ talk
through some things. And alsohearing, Phil and so many of the

(25:03):
other guides and ambassadorstalk through some thoughts
through some ideas. And it'sjust been kind of cool to sit
and watch that happen. So yeah,I think at this point, as when I
realized that the, that the thatthe podcast can serve a purpose
beyond just talking with thelistener, I think it actually

(25:24):
can be a catalyst for someone tobegin their own journey. And I
know in at least one case,that's been exactly what has
happened. So I'm going to pausehere. And yes, I know that I've
only made it halfway through thefirst season there. But that is
intentional, hopefully, it'sjust enough of a tease for you

(25:45):
to say to yourself, gee, maybe Ishould go back and just listen
to all those episodes all overagain. And I know I will,
probably very soon, because I'mgonna be spending a lot of time
in the sky and writingairplanes, different places. And
if you hear anything in any ofthose episodes, episodes, one
through 14 from season one, ifyou hear anything that that is

(26:06):
worth revisiting or discussing,or if you just want to say, Hey,
I thought this about that, youknow, feel free to tell somebody
tell me tell anyone, most of thepeople that year on the podcast
can be reached via email, justtheir name at Enneagram, prison
project.org. That's not alwaysthe case. But it's usually the
case, definitely the case withme clay at Enneagram, prison

(26:28):
project.org. And if you're inthe Slack community, with the
various channels ofcommunication there. I'm also
available there as our mostother people, there's also a
Slack channel, specifically forthe podcast. And you're more
than welcome to share anythoughts or ideas there as well.

(26:49):
And I think, eventually, I'dlike to see the Slack channel
there turn into a sort ofongoing discussion, or townhall,
just chat or however you want tocall that. To see what people
like and what they want to hearmore about, or even just see
what they think about some ofthe ideas that we've shared on

(27:10):
the podcast. So I wanted to keepthis episode, under 30 minutes.
I don't think I'm going to makeit there, because we're already
rolling up on 29 minutes. AndI've got a few more things to
say. So season two, what's itgoing to be about? I'm glad you
asked. So we won't be lookingforward to a 10th anniversary
since we've already passed it.

(27:31):
And I think the idea is just tomove forward talking about who
we are today and what we'redoing now, and potentially what
we might be doing in the nearfuture or even the distant
future. I'm going to keeptalking to guides, we're going
to try to have moreconversations with ambassadors.
And I think we're getting abetter idea, or at least I am

(27:51):
when I record these how to dothem in a way that's efficient,
and hopefully somewhatstructured, with the idea that
it's still structure free. Assilly as that might sound. And,
you know, whatever, whateverhappens in the coming season, I
guess I'll experience it whenyou do. But the idea will be to

(28:13):
keep talking to the people whomake the project happen. The
guides, the ambassadors, thefaculty, the board members, the
participants, the students, thepeople on the inside the people
on the outside, the builders,everyone, there's a lot of
people doing a lot of stuff. Andthankfully, I'm in a position
where I get to sit down acrossfrom those people and ask them,

(28:33):
Hey, what's going on right now?
What do you do? And what are youhere for and what's important to
you. And so those conversationsare going to keep happening. And
hopefully, as the second seasonrolls on, we will learn some new
things about EPP and what thefuture looks like. So again, on
the first Tuesday of next month,which is June the seventh, that

(28:53):
will be when you can expect thenext episode of the new season.
And I'm looking forward to it. Ialready know, the next few weeks
have a lot of opportunity. And Ijust I'm just bubbling with joy
to be able to share some of thethings with you that have
happened in the past few weeks,which and now where we sit here,
it's the next few weeks, but bythe time we talk again, it'll be

(29:17):
the past few weeks. So that'show that's how time works, I
guess. So for now, I will justsay farewell. And thank you for
being here. Thank you for givingus someone to talk to because as
I said earlier, without you thelistener. This kind of doesn't
really happen.