Episode 16: RJ Donovan

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Clay Tumey (00:06):
Hi, my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison
Project podcast. In the firstseason of the podcast, we
focused on telling the story ofEPP by talking with a few of the
people who had major impactsalong the way, in that first
decade of the project. Movingforward, we're going to focus on
the now and the future of EPP.
In this episode, I speak withthree EPP guides about a recent

(00:29):
trip back in May, to a prison inSouthern California, where we
held a week long intensiveprogram inside the walls with
the folks who live there at theprison. Most people call them
inmates Yes, but we don't saythat. In fact, if you're in the
mood to test drive some newlanguage, we say residents, we
say participants, we saystudents. Thanks for being here.

(00:51):
And I hope you enjoy theEnneagram Prison Project
podcast. Season two, episode onestarts now.

Halida Hatic (01:17):
I'm Halida Hatic I am a community Weaver at EPP and
I am also a guide.

Clay Tumey (01:25):
Our JD was a fun experience was for me at least.
There are so many additivesbeyond fun that would describe
it. And so I'm curious for youwhat what are some thoughts?
What what comes in your mindwhen I when I talk about the RJ
D experience? What is it? Whatwas it for you?

Unknown (01:43):
The first

thing that came to mind was life changing. quickly
after that, I have been sittingwith it for a while now. And
what I experienced inside ofmyself was kind of a quickening
of the work. Like just this likeown acceleration inside of me,

(02:06):
that has happened since our timetogether with the students that
our JD it really was incredible.

Clay Tumey (02:16):
So the I think life changing is a fun place to start
with that. We'd like to startwith small stuff. So what and
you know, life before RJD. Andthen life now and for, for
context, we're about a month,actually, we're, I think almost

(02:38):
exactly a month away from thelast day or two or a month and
two days beyond the end of it.
So we're like a month laterhere. And what was different?
What is different now? thanbefore? What what changed?

Yeah, I have a real, it's so funny, I'm using
the word I'm gonna use todescribe it, I want to be in the
real. And I've felt like fullyin the experience, I felt the
realness of all of it, being incommunity, with folks in that

(03:15):
way, with an open heart with alot of presents, holding
curiosity inside of myself, andit took the it was an experience
when I say like it's sort oflife changing. And the
acceleration part of it is sortof took what it is that I have

(03:38):
been studying for. I mean withinEPP for the past few years, but
the Enneagram in general for youknow, a decade now. And it's
like the real the real, real,real, real practical application
of all this stuff.

Clay Tumey (03:54):
Is this your first time going into prison?

Not my first time going into prison, but my first
time guiding in prison.

Clay Tumey (04:02):
What's the difference between being a
visitor and being being a guideas far as how it feels?
Obviously, the technicaldifferences easy to describe,
but how does it feel going inknowing that you're going to sit
with a room of residence, as welike to say, or any other word
that's better than inmate oroffender or any of the other
words that are not so friendly,what's different when you're
sitting there as a guide,

there was another level of aliveness and that
probably comes straight throughmy type structure and my
essential quality you know, ofdesiring to kind of be in that
aliveness and that that waspresent in the from the moment I
I took my seat like I keptsaying to the to our students,

(04:43):
your take your seat and and as Iwas saying that I was also
saying it to myself, you know,that is what I'm talking about
this like real kind of thereciprocity of it was alive and
also the reality of everythingwe need. David was in the room.
The the real work is aboutpresence. practicing compassion,

(05:08):
there's nothing like one'scapacity to be with everything.
And to. It's not as if I don't.
When I say these things, it's asif like, I feel like well, I was
saying them before it. I didn'tbelieve it. But that's not true.
I believed it. But it wasthere's like a transformation
that was happening inside of methat the in the same way that it

(05:30):
was happening inside of everyoneelse in in that field in the
room that we were occupyingtogether, and it was palpable,
like it was actually palpable.
And the work was to just be inthat presence and that aliveness
and that realness of everythingthat was there and that it all

(05:53):
belonged was all a part of theunfolding that we were going
through.

Clay Tumey (05:59):
You mentioned your type structure. And we I
intentionally don't start withthe intro of Hi, my name is so
and so my than my type is this,because I feel like it's easier
to just jump straight in. And sowe can we can backtrack a little
bit. And if you're okay,sharing, it's not mandatory, but
what is your type structure?

I leave with a Type Eight.

Clay Tumey (06:20):
So what I know about Type Eight, and I can't speak
for Type Eight, I, I think,actually, let me let me rephrase
that not even what I know. Butwhat I think a stereotype often
is, especially going intoprisoners that there's this
like, I'm not scared, there'sno, I'm going in headfirst. And
and I think prison brings upthings for people that they
didn't realize was there. And soI'm curious, like, what, what

(06:42):
did you have any concerns, notnecessarily like safety, or
physical safety or anything likethat, because I think at this
point, we know that prison, asmany people might not believe it
first, it's actually super safe.
And when we're going in asvisitors, we are, we are not
only protected by staff, but ifyou know, in a classroom of 20,
folks who live in the prison, ieresidents, ie, you know,

(07:05):
inmates, for those for the lateterm. If one guy gets out of
line, there are 19 other guyswilling to help immediately. So
there's no real physical concernfor me at least. And I think
that's true for most. But beyondthat, are there were there any,
any things coming up with yourtype, you know, in terms of
going in, you know, newexperience, anything around any

(07:29):
of that? Does anything come up,just in hearing, hearing any of
that?

I think that the things that came up for me
around my type structure werewanting to, to push back against
how I don't want to because I'mtrying to choose my words wisely
here, you know,

Unknown (07:58):
there was the

space itself, like, you know, it's not a it's
not a place that is designed tobe conducive for healing.

Clay Tumey (08:12):
Yeah, so.

So the institution the, the the sheer fact that we,
you know, are putting peopleinto places and spaces, like a
prison with You know, concretewalls and you know, when you're

(08:34):
inside a lack of sunlight, allof the things that we know, you
know, help people heal, none ofthem are there, the place itself
is not designed to be a placefor healing. And so for me,
that's the type of reactivity Iexperienced inside of myself
that the wanting to kind of rageagainst that aspect of it the

(09:00):
like, dehumanizing aspect of theinstitution that is prison.

Scott Tavenner (09:08):
Nothing else.

They're human beings, they're incredibly
beautiful human beings who werewho received us just with a lot
of love and openness. That wasmy experience.

Clay Tumey (09:27):
The stereotype I think a lot of times is that
prison is this scary, violent,you know, place, and it can be,
by the way, but I think mostlymy experience, both when I was
incarcerated, and also goingback in my experience is that
there's a lot of there are a lotof like routine things that you
see like people are exercisingpeople are, you know, go to chow

(09:50):
go to go to, you know, what wecall pill call, which is to
teach medicine or whatever,playing basketball. There's like
all these things that are likeroutine, habitual, mindless,
just Just get me through today.
And, you know, there's a lot ofunspoken sadness, there's a lot
of just like, it's concrete. Andlike, still, it's not a, it's
not a super fun place. And so,can you sense any of that or

(10:14):
not? Can you but did you? Doyou? When you're when you're in
that environment? Is it? Is it?
Is that the same for you?

Interesting question. Um, I mean, I think
that walking behind the bars,what I what I feel is the, the
ignoring the pain, like thelet's just ignore the pain. Not
but not from the individuals butand not even not even I'm not

(10:47):
even talking from like,institutional staff necessarily,
but just the the mindset of howwe've even created the spaces
where we are going to then, youknow, put people in all of it is
dehumanizing. And so it's justlike the why are we not
acknowledging this is therealness of type, right? Like,
why are we not acknowledgingwhat's here, which is what

(11:10):
you're, you're illuminatingclay, which is that there is a
lot of pain and a lot ofsuffering. And that pain and
suffering wasn't not present inthe classroom. It's not as if it
didn't come in. But despite allof it, like, there, there was a

(11:32):
willingness, you know, we, we,we want our students to, to opt
in, right, like we want, we wantpeople to choose to want to be
there. And there are lots ofdifferent reasons why people
choose to take their seat in theclassroom. And it kind of
doesn't really matter why whatgets them in, but then they're
there. And what happens insideof there, and a little bit of it

(11:54):
is just the acknowledgement ofthe pain and suffering and the
willingness to be with it withthem, which is something that
they what I suspect has notoften been a part of their
experience in in prison or priorto being incarcerated.

Clay Tumey (12:16):
So you mentioned the classroom, it's an it's a nice
transition into I do want totalk about what and just to
paint the picture of theclassroom that you I was
fortunate enough to be there. SoI can I can, I can kind of set
the scene a little bit anddescribe your your room was it
was it probably I would say like10 feet by 15 feet. So it was a

(12:37):
it wasn't like a big giantclassroom, it was pretty cozy in
there. concrete walls, the tilefloors, that, you know,
fluorescent lighting all thatgood stuff. Not not a whole lot
of natural sunlight. Matter offact, there were I don't think
there was a window in therewhere it was there. I don't I
don't seem to remember therebeing a window in there either.
And if there was it was the tinylittle slit window in prison. So

(12:59):
it was that was like thephysical, the physical setting.
The chairs were at the perimeterof the room. So we do the circle
is a little oblong circle,because the way the room was,
and I want to say 16 or 17residents there were in class,
am I remembering all thatcorrectly?

You are was a 23 capacity room and we had 16
residents. And then you werethere, myself, Scott, and
somebody from the mental healthteam. So we were at capacity.

Clay Tumey (13:36):
Yeah, literally. I'm actually I'm going to talk to
Scott tomorrow. And I'm lookingforward to seeing some of the
things that stand out from himor for him from that week. And
you mentioned someone from themental health team there and I
kind of I kind of brain fartedthere for a minute and forgot
that we had we had arepresentative in the class with
us and this wasn't someone whojust sat in the back of the room

(13:58):
and supervised like they were inthe circle with us and
participated like during thecheck in answering the
questions. I wasn't there whenyou paneled five, but he was he
was on the panel Correct? What'sthat like having involvement
from from prison staff? As assomeone who I have my very

(14:19):
strong opinions about people whowork in that industry? And and
without putting my thoughts outthere? What What were your
experiences from from just thatpiece of it?

It was incredible.
And I think it really I knowintroduced a beautiful dynamic
into into the space. And I thinkthis was the case across all
three of the cohorts but themental health team fully
participated. We needed themthere because they are the brown

(14:50):
card holders and so it was youknow a requirement that they be
present. And they took they tooktheir seats too. And like you
said, when when we say, when youenter when you enter EVPs
classroom, you you are aparticipant and that means doing
the homework that means sittingon panel that means

(15:12):
participating in, in check inand all of it. I loved our
classroom. All the things thatyou described, I thought we like
won the lottery on the classroomwas so sweet and intimate. And I
get a lot of energy from justkind of that like, forced

(15:32):
intimacy, I guess you could say.

Clay Tumey (15:38):
Yeah, that's actually the My favorite part
about your room. And also the itwas a it was a tight like room
it was small, but also therewere no obstacles in the middle
of the floor. There were no likeoften you'll see tables and
chairs bolted down. And theyjust so I would agree on the
hitting the the room lottery.

They also had, I think it's important to say we
had to have our, our students inour class had were part of the
Bucha program. So we had tocover Golden's two golden
retriever retrievers that werewith us all week, that was
pretty special.

Clay Tumey (16:16):
Yeah, that's a trips and dogs running around inside
inside prison. And it's also anoticeable difference in the
behavior of the people who livethere when the dogs are around.
And I think with the number of,you know, pets that we have, who
are unwanted and, and sheltersand all that stuff, got what a
what a great idea, whoeverwhoever thought that that would

(16:36):
be a good idea to take, youknow, pets and put them inside
of prisons. That was that was agood one. I experienced that,
like the week before that in adifferent prison too. And it
blew my mind. And I'm not even apet person, I'm allergic to most
animals. And so it's not it'snot like I'm even that guy who's
just like, every thing with fourlegs is the greatest thing in
the world. Like, that ain't me.
And it's, it's still just likeit was. It was really

part of the like, what I can only describe is
this, like field of receptivity.
I think you are with us, man.
Yeah, that story.

Jan Shegda (17:11):
Actually, your story because you really, really
called

one of our students in when when they were
processing some grief. And andyou reflected back that, you
know, well, I don't want to, Idon't want to speak your words,
but you reflected back theirlight and encourage them to stay
with it. And as you, you know,coached him through it. The one

(17:41):
of the pooches went over and satto remember that just like sort
of lie down at his feet.

Clay Tumey (17:47):
Yeah, so gorgeous.
It was and the thing, you know,basically what I what I said to
him, I'll paraphrase a littlebit, but because I've had this,
I've had this talk with a lot ofpeople on the inside, there's
this tendency to just shove downour emotions, and like, I'm not
experiencing this while I'mlocked up, because I'm not in a
safe place where I can beemotional, because either people
are gonna take advantage of me.

(18:09):
And or, like best case scenario,they just sit there and leave me
alone. And there's no realinteraction, nobody's coming to
put a hand on my back. There'snone of that. So it's a safety
thing a lot of times to justshove it down, like, I'll cry
when I'm by myself and myselflater. And, and I'd see it a
mile away, and I don't, I justdon't subscribe to this bullshit

(18:33):
thinking of, you know, I don'tneed to cry. I'm tough. And that
wasn't really what he wasdealing with. It wasn't like a
macho thing, but there was, youknow, head down, and like a lot
of effort, and to just notexperience letting those
emotions be what they are. And,you know, basically just calling
it out and saying, That'sbullshit. And I also put it to

(18:55):
everyone in the room. And therewere the head nods and the vocal
Yeah, and all that stuff. And itwas, you know, and that was it
for him. And me, it's a goodthing, I think.

And then also just connecting it back to like, to
our patterns and how when westart to to be uncomfortable how
our personality steps in, youknow, he was really trying to
fast forward through the painand in the discomfort and just
inviting him back in to staypresent. And notice, like notice

(19:30):
the, the, the habitual patternof the personality and, and just
be with that without judgment.
And that's what happened. Again,and again and again and again,
over the course of of the weekwas really amusing.

Clay Tumey (19:47):
A major part of our week in San Diego was that the
the turnaround on our bioresponses was probably the
fastest it's ever been. Therewere a couple was to 70 students
across three classes. And Ithink it was actually in like
the high 60s, or maybe mid 60s.
But there were a lot of peoplein those three classes. And they

(20:08):
submitted their bio responsesearly in the week. And then they
they all they not by responses,they submitted their bios early
in the week. And then every,every one of them got a
response. If they turned it in,in time, every one of them got a
response like that week, likewhile we were still there. And
so if you don't mind, can youfirst for anybody who don't

(20:32):
know, who might not know whatthe bio processes are what all
that is, like a briefdescription of exactly what that
is. And then also, what was thatlike going through, you know,
1015 20 bios, in a matter of afew days, or however many it
was, I don't know, I just knowthat every time I looked up, you
know, we all shared an Airbnband we were around each other a
lot outside of prison, too. Andevery time I looked up, somebody

(20:54):
had a piece of paper that theywere holding up reading, and
going through bio responses. Andso just talk about what anything
that you want to talk aboutaround that. It's an

important part of what we do on the inside. And so
we invite our students. And wewere doing an intensive, so I
think it's important to mentionthat, so we were teaching 24
hours, eight modules over fourdays. And most of us with the

(21:24):
exception of being Scottactually had one day, the
Thursday to do all of the bioresponses that we were assigned,
Scott and I were condensed downinto four days straight. So we
all relied on the community andthe guides around the world to
support us in that process. Butback to we assign our students

(21:45):
that give them the invitation totell us their story and third
person from their earliestmemory through about 18 years of
age. And, and then we as guides,take the time to read every
single one of the BIOS andprovide a response to reflecting

(22:07):
back again, you know that thereare things that happened to us
that never should have happened.
And there are things that didn'thappen that should have
happened. And knowing what weknow about Enneagram we're
really able to be acompassionate witness for our
students. And help them be theirown compassionate witness to, I

(22:29):
think that's an importantprocess, part of the process
being with our pain andsuffering, because that's,
that's what we're transformingthrough presence. That's what
we're transforming. So, we didthat. And it took, like I said,
our global community of guides,we have, I don't know more than

(22:50):
50 guides now around the globe.
And I mean, a huge shout out topeople like Sue Lambert, who
took on a heavy load of bioresponses. And others, I'm just
I know of Sue and and for Scottand I, like I said, we didn't
have that Thursday. So weassigned the bios on the first

(23:13):
day, and we really relied on onthe community to help us get bio
responses back. And every singleone of our cohort of 16. I don't
know if this is the case overthe other two cohorts or not.
But every single one of our 16students submitted a bio, which
is kind of amazing. I don'tthink that happens necessarily.

(23:34):
This is I didn't say this. Butyou know, I was apprenticing,
this is my first time guidingand in custody. So Scott would
be able to tell you a little bitmore about how frequently that
happens in our other classes.

Clay Tumey (23:48):
And that was a pretty, pretty incredible team
effort to make all that happen.
Because it was every you know,you mentioned Sue, she did a lot
of abou responses. And and forthe listener who might be
wondering, well, how did they dothat? If they weren't there? I'm
glad you asked, even though youdidn't. So we the first of all,
the the staff at RJ Donovan,they took a massive amount of

(24:09):
workload and taking all of thesehandwritten responses from the
students and scanning them andthen emailing them to literally
throughout the world. And sothough, so you would have, for
example, Sue, would would get anemail would download the scanned
image of a handwritten bio, readthrough that, and then do a read

(24:34):
about response to that. And youknow, of course, type it out,
email it back, and then thatwould be given to I'm assuming
typing in having that printedout. I don't know if there were
handwritten Yeah,

I mean, this is right. This is you really like
bringing some illuminationaround like how all this works.
Shout out to Dan check that andJason white like Not only the
staff at our JD but getting themscanned, uploaded to a shared
drive. Jason worked all of hismagic and got BIOS assigned to

(25:10):
folks that we had alreadyinvited to do responses for us
and then had to work with alocal printer to get you know,
so we wrote our was typed up ourresponses, and then got them to
a local printing store and Janpicked them up and and we got
them all returned before the endof the week. It was a Herculean,

Clay Tumey (25:35):
pretty damn impressive. To know that like
for every one, like, one bio toget through, and then to come
back, like there were like fivepeople involved, at least and
making that happen like it was.
It was crazy,

meaningful, it is so meaningful for the students.
So it really does take a villageand thank goodness for EPP
Village.

Clay Tumey (26:00):
I want to leave you with the last word here and just
it's wide open. There's noquestion. No prom, no, anything
like that. Before that out, I'llsay thank you. This was kind of
like, I just messaged you acouple days ago. I was like,
Hey, you wanna talk about ourJD? Like, yeah, sure, figured
out a time and bam, that'shappening. And I appreciate it.
It's, it's, this was kind oflike, very quick. And so thanks

(26:21):
for giving me some of your time.
And I want to know any any finalthoughts about your experience
at RJ D or even anything elsethat might come up? So I'm gonna
shut up and the floor is yoursuntil you're done?

Thanks, Clay I think I want to like finish on
appreciation. I know that wejust appreciated the EPP
community and team that reallyheld us I felt it when I was
there, it went beyond the walls,I could feel our global
community in the presence ofeach and every one of us in that

(26:58):
classroom. So that that says alot and when I appreciate RJD
was not an easy task for thefacility to be able to staff us
and receive us and make spacefor us Mr. Bossy, who you know

(27:18):
recorded more than five hoursworth of video footage from all
three cohorts and generouslygave us the raw footage and is
putting together promotionalvideos for the residents. So
when we come back like so much,so much love so much

(27:40):
appreciation for all the waysthat we leave we are supported
and we're supported and I'mreally feeling the partnership
that's emerging particularly inSan Diego Dr. Greenwald for you
know opening the door initiallyfor us to be able to walk

(28:03):
through it she's been such achampion of EPP and many many
spaces and certainly in her homethere in San Diego so I'm just
feeling a lot of love andappreciation and gratitude to
her as well. And I think I haveto also like conclude while

(28:25):
you're talking to people get totalk to Scott but just like like
a bow of gratitude to Scott forhis support as you know somebody
who was like a newbie guiding incustody, I really enjoyed the
like flow of guiding co guidingwith him. It was such a joy I

(28:47):
learned a lot from him. And Ijust I felt him holding me and
holding us and it just made itpossible for me to really show
up beautifully I think but mylast my last like bow of
gratitude and appreciation goesto the ambassadors to you clay
to Alex to Renee, who was beamedin for one of our our panels. I

(29:13):
don't know that I know of wehave not entered prison with
that many like with that manyambassadors that much support
before and it was extraordinaryto be for me to sit take a seat

(29:35):
with you all was like I felt asif I was not only divinely
supported, but that I was thestudent to like I could feel the
work alive inside of me and Ijust I learned so much from you
all so my last word goes likejust thank you so much love to
you

I think that's still unfolding. name is Scott
Taverner. I'm a guide for EPP toget to the privilege of guiding
people on their journey in andout of confined spaces.

Clay Tumey (30:23):
I think, I think a good starting point without any
real specific question, justfrom your experience, can you
just tell me a little bit aboutwhat you remember from that
week? Anything that stands out?
Anything that comes to mind whenyou when you hear these three
letters are JD?

I think for me, it's an exploration of what's
possible, both from the facilityand from the residents of the
facility. Right. I mean, thekindness by the CEOs, by the
administration, and by theresidents was just really
different than a lot of placesthat I've had the opportunity to
go into. And you could just feelthere's a movement happening

(31:05):
there. And there's a shiftthat's happening there, then I
think it's, I think it mightforetell some possibilities in
the future, we'll see.

Clay Tumey (31:14):
It's, it's funny, because anytime the conversation
comes up, even just in generalchatter with with folks who have
been there, the staff alwaysgets mentioned, and I've been to
a lot of facilities, we've beento a lot of facilities. And
that's not always the case. Andsometimes it's intentional,
because sometimes there's notgood things to say, say at all,

(31:34):
about the people who are staffedat at the facility itself, and
RJ Donovan, is just different,or you know, as some people
might say, just just builddifferent. And it feels like
they're just actually going tocorrect myself. It's not a
feeling it's, for me, it'sreality, that they are a part of
the team. And they they were inour classes. And not just in a

(31:56):
talk with Selita yesterday aboutthis. They weren't just there
just as a way to supervise ormaintain security or any of that
stuff. They were in the circlewith us and on panels and
answering questions and doingthe check in. Have you seen that
kind of involvement from, fromany staff in any other place
that you've been to?

No, not officially. I mean, it's not
sanctioned in a lot of places,right? So just yesterday, I was
in jail. And we're in a largeroom with in a pod was 60 Min
20. And class and we're doing aclass on this one CEO kept
walking in. And he waspatrolling, he was, you know,

(32:39):
looking. But it was amazing howslow he would walk in the areas
where he had a lot of visibilityto the classroom space, right.
And he's clearly like listeningin and clearly intrigued. And
this person has made a shifttowards us even like he's made,
as we walk in now versus, youknow, cold months ago, there's

(33:03):
just an openness to what'shappening in the room. And I
think what's happening might be,I'm beginning to see how this is
making my life a little biteasier to and I'm now I'm
getting curious. Right? So thatcuriosity, but it's almost as if
like, I'm wearing this uniform,and I'm not allowed to be
curious. I'm not allowed to bepart of it. And so there's this
kind of this barrier that peopletry to make permeable, but it's

(33:28):
almost as if the rulesregulations, institutions don't
allow it, or RJD, I think isreally playing with that. How
permeable that barrier betweenstaff and residents are eaten by
using any residents instead ofinmates example.

Clay Tumey (33:41):
Yeah. And I was actually about to ask you about
that. Because that's, that'ssomething that's, that's new to
me, even like, in when I waslocked up. And even in the years
after, like, to me, I neverthought twice about using the
word inmate to describe someonewho's incarcerated, because for
me, it's just an accurate term.
And I never I never thoughttwice about it, which is, which
is the thing that is worthpointing out is that it was

(34:02):
nothing that I ever questioned,like, why don't we say this?
It's just like, that's whatthey're called. And in Texas, we
say offender, we don't even sayinmate, it's just, you know,
your ID has giant red letters.
offender written across thefront of it. And when they speak
to you, they they speak to youas offender, you know, and that
is just normal. And so to me inMay, is even softer than what I

(34:26):
was used to hear. And Dr.
Greenwald, when I was actuallythe first person I heard use
that terminology of callingsomeone a resident. And I
actually thought it was a jokeat first I thought, well, it's,
you know, because I make thejoke of gated community all the
time. So resident, right is likepart of that. And and the more I
was around that, that that typeof thinking, the more I

(34:51):
realized, now this is actuallyjust the way it is. It's not a
it's not a play on words. It'sjust a shift in language that is
relevant And is is RJ Donovan.
Is that Is that where you firstexperienced that? I don't I
don't I can assume one way orthe other, but that going from
inmate to saying resident?

Yeah, that's the first I've experienced it. I
think the closest before thatwas John Felipe us detainees, I
think they call it in Belgium.
They call them detainees, whichI think is one step closer by
residents and the furthest I'veseen. And I think that I might
take a little bit of Musa it'sjust, it's just a word. I think
Words have the power to framing,right. And we, we know,

(35:32):
neurologically, we use words togive us context. And I think
that when we choose a word likeresidence versus, you know,
offender, inmate detainee, we'rechoosing to move closer to
humanity. And I think that, thatthat's what we were feeling, at
least where we were now, wedidn't get to see all of our JD,

(35:52):
we didn't get seat, you know,and so there are different
different feelings, differentplaces possible, but for the
what we experienced, and we gotto experience, you know, two
different yards, and it waspretty similar both yards. So I
have to say that.

Clay Tumey (36:07):
I agree, by the way, the words absolutely matter. And
it feels different to sayresident than it does in May.
And that, to me indicates thatthat's that's all legit. And
also just a small aside, some ofthe folks there the staff there
at RGD. They also say patient,and when I'm talking about
residents, which I just I thinkit's cool. So the class, it was

(36:29):
a week long, it was severalhours per day, and and your
class is actually one dayshorter. So you crammed more
into a smaller amount of time.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat the week was like in terms
of curriculum? What happened inclass? What did you expect going
into it, you know, any of thatstuff. As far as the class time
itself that week?

I think what was noteworthy to me is we had 16
People in our class, all the twowere essentially on long term
stays. Over half the class waslife without parole. The other
group had terms of 800 years,you know, which is essentially

(37:11):
life. And no one had been inprison for less than 14 years.
And I say that because despitethat, despite having, you know,
all those things stacked againstyou, the hope and curiosity and
ability to do self reflection,was remarkable. And some of it

(37:31):
was, hey, I'm trying to getmyself off, I'm trying to get
early enough place to get myselfoff and actually get a date. And
I get that. But there areseveral people who had really
come to the realization thatthis is my life, and I need to
make the most of it. And I putmyself in their position. And I
wonder, can I do that? Can Iactually have hope, and a life

(37:58):
that is a resident of a StatePenitentiary in California? I
don't think I could. I just findthat remarkable and, and
inspiring to, for me to explorewhat parts of myself, I take for
granted.

Clay Tumey (38:16):
And, by the way, when you say get a date, to the
casual listener, talking aboutparole, and in the ultimate hope
of good of getting out, which,you know, it's well actually
didn't know that at the timethat the smallest amount of time
was 14 years, as far as how longeverybody had been gone there. I
knew that there were some longtimers in there. And I didn't

(38:38):
know it was I didn't know, Ididn't know that. Well, so
that's a while I had thepleasure of spending the first
day of the week in class withyou. And it was pretty cool. And
there's one story, it's, youknow, I hate to say favorite,
it's probably my favorite storyof the week, though. And I'll

(38:58):
let you tell it if if you likeabout a one of the people in the
class who in the beginning ofthe week, he and I can bleep out
his last name, but we can sayhis first name. It's he part of
the check in he said, you know,my name is you know, I am this
type I, you know, I'm above orbelow the line and part of his

(39:19):
check in. You know, he, he said,That's my last name, you know?
And does this ring a bell? As wegiggled, because of course, it's
a pretty big bell. He said, youknow, part of part of what I
want to do here because, youknow, early in the week we're
setting our intentions. I don'tremember the exact check in

(39:40):
question, but the idea is tostate your intentions. What are
you here for? Why are you whyare you here and part of his
check in was, you know, I wantto be Jamal. I want to I want to
find Jamal again. And there wassome phrasing that I don't
remember remember verbatim butit was the idea was I I go by my
last name. This is how it hitme. Just and you could share how

(40:02):
you, it was on this, go by thisthing that was created by a
system, but I just want to bejamol. Again, and I just want to
that's an I don't know, Ithought it was such a beautiful
way of, of a articulating thatand be identifying the purpose
of what he was there for. And Ithink, you know, talking about

(40:23):
words mattered names matter too.
Like, I'm not a big fan ofnicknames and, and people using
street names and stuff likethat. And I don't like being
called Mr. Toomy, you know, andmy birth name is Clayton. Nobody
calls me that I'm Clay. And itis not a matter of shame or
anything, or any of that stuffis just but this is how you tell
me that you know me as you callme clay first. And that's how I
took what he was saying, was hischeck in. And what happened as

(40:48):
the week went on with him?

Yeah. So we first had everyone write their
names, first name on the nameplacard that they put in front
of themselves. And everyone, theclass wrote their first name
except for one. And as we wentand checked in this person,
individual gave us checked inwith their last name. Okay. And

(41:21):
he said, I've lost myself solong ago, I would really like to
find Jamal again. And it wasalmost as if he had taken on the
persona by only using his lastname. I think it was even before
prison. And so we let him havehis placard in his name card

(41:43):
with his last name on it. And itwas the last day. And I walked
over and I gave him a pen and anew placard. And I said, are you
ready yet? And he said, Yes, Iam. And he took the new one out,
and he wrote your ball on it.
And as he put the placard on theground, he looked back up in the
whole room was silent. And hehad this beaming smile. He said

(42:15):
something the effect of a longtime, since I felt like myself.

Clay Tumey (42:30):
When I saw him, I was only in your class, the
first day when I saw him at theend of the week. I don't know
that I realized that. That itwas quite that I guess addressed
in the class itself. And Ididn't know that about the class
falling silent. I saw him atgraduation, and I just, you
know, handshake fist bump that,you know, just a very casual,

(42:51):
you know, like, hey, and I justsaid, Jamal, right? And he just
smile. And it is like, yeah, andthat was it's not an
insignificant thing, man. Like,that's, that's, uh, so like I
said, That's my face. That's myfavorite. It's my favorite
memory from the week. And it's,how do you how do you navigate

(43:12):
those kinds of situations,situations where, like, you
know, when somebody sayssomething like that early in the
week, like, you know, where youknow what the potential is, you
know, where you'd like to see itgo. But how do you allow
something like that, for lack ofa better words, or just like
without being too pushy? Becausea very easy thing to do in that
moment would have just beenlike, well, give me your thing

(43:34):
here, right, right, Jamal, andalmost like, just shrug it off.
Like what the hell? Who cares,right? Just change your name.
And honestly, that's my go toreaction like, because it's
almost like, well, if you wantto be called your mom be called
your mom. But that's the wrongplay right there. That's not the
way that's not the smooth.
That's not the right reaction, Ithink. And I so I screw things

(43:54):
like that up a lot. And I'mactually curious what, like, how
do you know how to handle thosesituations? So well, and how do
you how do you go about thedoing part of that being, you
know, seems like it's easy foryou like that. There was no
forcing for me, either you orHalida In that moment, to just
what just here just do it. Itwas very like, Okay, thanks. You

(44:15):
know.

I actually don't know how I how it's done. Often.
question whether I actually doit right. Anyway. That's my own
internal inner critic stuff.
I've done this long enough torealize that the power of our
teaching, the gold is in themoment. And it's not trying to
turn it into something else. Andso no matter what is said, no

(44:42):
matter what happens, that is thegold from which we get to weave
our tapestry and learning toaccept that and not just go on
to the next teaching or notgoing to the thing or not to
force it. Okay. This is yourjourney, and you might make it
this week or you might not andIf you make it, I'm going to be
so excited for you. And if youdon't, I'm also going to be
excited for you, because youtook a step down that path and

(45:05):
you know where you want to go.
But it's not my job to take youthere. It's my job to stand next
to you. And I think you, yousaid this the best, I will take
the next step with you. I'll bethere next year. And when you
feel like you're stumbling, youcan lean on me. But my job isn't

(45:26):
to take the step for you. Or totake you there, it's to help
guide you in the process of usdiscovery that and that can
happen in four days, sometimesit can take four years.

Clay Tumey (45:41):
Thank you appreciate that. There's a couple of things
that I don't want to go withoutasking about one of them is the
bio. The process the process ofof those in class, you know,
writing a bio, and then turningit in, then, you know, as a

(46:02):
guide, you read, you give aresponse. And typically, that
that whole process, it takes awhile like it's not like a It's
not an Amazon next day deliverykind of thing. But this week,
the week that we're talkingabout, RJ Donovan, it was it was
pretty. It was pretty quickturnaround for the for the BIOS

(46:25):
and, and we all we all stayed atan Airbnb together. So I saw
like, all the other guides, youknow, going through the BIOS all
week, and I know that there wasa process, I talked with Halida
about, you know, the staffscanning and sending BIOS to
guides around the world,literally. And it was a lot
different that week than ittypically is. And so what How'd

(46:50):
that feel?

Well, first of all, it's too easy to overstate
the contributions of the peoplein the room and understate the
contributions of the communitythat literally help us write 60
Something bios and effect iseffectively 48 hours, right. And
so we file responses. And Ithink that the focus on us isn't

(47:16):
necessarily complete either.
Because we also asked studentswho literally were introduced to
this concept of the Enneagram,got a brief overview six hours
and said, Okay, start writingyour bio, tell us all about your
childhood experiences, rightfrom the time you first remember
it till the time, you're 1820years old, right. And oh, by the
way, you have one day to turn itback in so we can turn around.

(47:39):
So it wasn't just us, like theamount of perseverance of
sitting in a class for six oreight hours, then spending all
night processing it and writinga bio, to be able to turn it in
the next day, is alsoremarkable. And we had 100% of
our students did thatassignment. And many of our

(48:00):
students said to us this thefirst time I've ever told anyone
about some of these things in mylife. And so I think what's
remarkable is while our by itwas a challenge to absorb some
of these life stories torespond. And then they have to

(48:22):
do it again, in a shorttimeframe, put a demand on the
guides ability to be presentwith the pain and their own
stories. Think it's even moreremarkable, to really explore
ourselves, in some ways for thefirst time and share that with
another especially in thatshorter period of time. That

(48:44):
short, shorter duration. I thinkthat's was the more remarkable
part of it for me.

Clay Tumey (48:52):
Yeah, thank you for pointing that out. Because it is
easy to gloss over that. And toskip that part of it and, and
throw all the praises to thepeople who read it and wrote it
back. And I've read some ofthose bios and they're rough.
And there, there's a lot ofsharing. On on the on the part
of the person who's writing it.
And as there's a lot of pain inthere is just a lot of pain. So

(49:14):
Thanks for Thanks for fordescribing that part of it.
Because I think that's, I mean,well, I think that's literally
where it begins. That's withoutthem writing it. None of it
happens.

I think it starts with the other homework
to write the bio plus five ofthe homeworks. And I think that
learning to write aboutourselves is one thing, I think
what's even harder is learningto be seen. Because, you know,
I've had this conversation withlots of incarcerated and lots of
the ambassadors that you know, Ithink everyone can relate to

(49:49):
those moments in our lives foractually seen for who we are,
are rare. You know, andsometimes this is the first time
for many where students is thefirst time in their entire life,
anyone's actually taken the timeto see them? Not their crime,
not their tattoos, not theiraffiliations, not the pain, the

(50:12):
misery, but actually, what'sunderneath all of that. And
that's scary. These pieces forme.

Clay Tumey (50:23):
I agree. It is. I mean, it's, it's that was my
childhood, everything,everything I was known for was
was all that I did, and very,very little of who I was. And
you live a life like that longenough, you don't really, at
some point, have a goodunderstanding of who you are in
the first place. And it allbecomes about your actions. And

(50:44):
so yeah, I want to honor ourtime, we have a few minutes
left, and are there any, anyanything, anything we didn't, we
didn't touch on or anything fromthat week or any thoughts you
want to share? I

there was, we had two bunkies in our
classroom, and one was an exskinhead. And the other one was
born and raised in Compton,California. And our society in
our world is in a place whereconversations about race and

(51:25):
class and privilege areprevalent, and it was prevalent
in that classroom too. And morethan once, the pressure of
talking about ourselves becametoo great. So we wanted to go
talk about a social issueinstead. And these two roommates
bunkies, they've been havingthese conversations themselves,

(51:46):
even before our class I watchedhappen is, as their
understanding of themselvesgrew, their ability to relate
and understand the other alsogrew to the point where it was
post graduation. And I got tosee both individuals, after we
graduation is day after wegraduated date, really. So we

(52:09):
got those next day as an RJ D,walking through the yard. And I
ran into one of the individualswho was sitting there with his
dog. And it was just had thisrelaxed glow about him that had
never seen before. And then Iwalked into the building, and I
ran into his roommate, who ranup to me and gave me this huge

(52:33):
hug and which is not allowed.
And it was right in front of me.
The CEOs that everybody saidthey're like, oh, here we are.
And he's like, yeah, he goes,this is so awesome. My 82 year
old mom wants to take thecourse, online with you guys. I
think that when we talk aboutthe power of healing, when we

(52:57):
talk about the power ofcommunity, I think these words
understate what can happen.
Because when we can have twopeople from completely different
experiences, completelydifferent occupations, who How
can learn to live together, andthen accept and appreciate the

(53:17):
other, then we can get to trueunderstanding. And we can
actually maybe, finally put someof these artificial labels
constraints that we've putourselves behind us and put it
on the shelf as a piece ofhistory, instead of a piece of
our reality. And if that's notworth waking up and doing the

(53:37):
work for every day, I don't knowwhat it is.

Clay Tumey (53:41):
I'm so glad I'm recording the that is so I get
to listen to that as many timesas I want. That is as that's
good shit, as we say. Thank you,Scott. Appreciate you man. Thank
you

Jan Shegda (54:09):
I'm Jan Sega. I'm a guide with EPP and was part of
the intensa at RJ Donovan prisonoutside of San Diego. It was my
second time there. I had beenthere as an apprentice guide in
2019. It was an amazing week. Wehad three different groups,
three different classes, threeguides, three new apprenticing

(54:34):
guides plus three ambassadors.
And it was just incredible.

Clay Tumey (54:41):
Thinking about the week and RJ Donovan like what
what what are some just justfirst thoughts that pop up for
you?

Jan Shegda (54:48):
Yeah, the first thing I was thinking about,
there's this one participant whohas really been sticking with me
a lot of them do of course, butThis particular guy was probably
the most resistant we had at thebeginning. One of the questions
we often used to check in,during our in custody

(55:11):
programming is, what are youaddicted to? And how does it
serve you. And his response wassomething like, I'm addicted to
lots of things, and I'm stillhigh from last night or
something, something similar tothat kind of a more resistant
response, like not reallywanting to go deeper. And

(55:36):
watching his change throughoutthe class. To me, it was one of
the most impactful things. And Idon't, I don't know, if it would
have been noticed by everyone,because he essentially just
became less resistant and lessdefensive. Yeah. But we have
homework in those classes aswell. So he was turning in these

(55:59):
different assignments. And itwas amazing to watch the
transformation from none of thiscan help me and none of it
matters to these glimmers ofhope coming in for him and
feeling more open hearted and,and like he's not defined by his

(56:19):
past, which is pretty, prettyhorrific things. He did very,
very young and was working offseveral life sentences. So he,
he really sticks with me as anexample of maybe someone that
wouldn't ever make it onto apodcast, let's say, or a

(56:41):
billboard, or anywhere else totell his story. And was, and
also didn't really like speakingin class or anything, but in
just in these assignments, hetalked about how meaningful the
experience was and life changingand, and that's what it's all
about.

Clay Tumey (56:57):
Yeah. So as a guide, when you're when you're in that
situation. And I will admit thatI struggle with this with my
reactions and, or reactivity inthose moments. And when I feel a
push back from someone oranything that isn't like,
willing to go with I suppose Iget I'm activated, I guess we

(57:20):
could say. So, you know, as aguide. And this is a class by
the way, we're, you're we'rethere for six hours a day for
like four or five days thatweek. So this wasn't just like a
one hour like, see in a fewmonths kind of thing. This was,
this is someone that you'regoing to see throughout the
week. And so as a guide, how doyou you know, I know outwardly

(57:41):
how the response looks a lot oftimes because I see that, but
inward How is or internally, howdoes that feel as a guide? How
do you how do you know how tonavigate that situation? I mean,
what what is it that you'redoing in that moment? So that it
doesn't turn into a dumpsterfire? Which is what I feel like
I would make a turn to, youknow?

Jan Shegda (58:03):
Yeah, well, it definitely it definitely was a
trigger for me in the moment.
Oh, no. What do I What do I do?
What do I say to this person?
But and to be honest, I don'tremember exactly how I
responded, it was probablysomething like, okay, received,
or, you know, and then let'smove on or something like that.
Because it was literally one ofour first times asking for some

(58:27):
participation from folks. Ididn't want to push him too
hard. But I definitely stood onit later. I think that was our
last class of the day. So wewent home and decompressed
afterwards. And then we weregoing back the day after. And I
definitely thought about him andsome different strategies. So

(58:48):
like, what happens if he's thatresistant? Tomorrow? Do I push a
little further? How do we gethim engaged, just he's someone
we need to remove from the classas you can affect the container.
So I created some differentoptions in my mind and talked
with my, with my partner incrime, who was going to be co

(59:08):
guiding with me the next day.
And luckily, he moved fromactively resistant to just more
inwardly pondering by the nextday, he wasn't disruptive
anymore.

Clay Tumey (59:27):
Cool. We're not on video, so you can't see me
smiling ear to ear as as you usethe phrase partner in crime,
because I just think it's funnyin this context, you know, with
what we do, and that's it's acommon phrase that you know, you
hear just in general, but alsoin EPP So, I always get a kick
out of that when when I when Ihear that. So thanks for the
thanks for the free smile today.
So

Jan Shegda (59:50):
I didn't even think about that. But yeah, it's like,
kind of not culturally sensitivewhatsoever,

Clay Tumey (59:55):
but I'm all for it.
I support it. And maybe maybethe next person won't, but it,
it makes me giggle. I just thinkit's, I mean, because it's a,
it's a, you know, we soften somany things that are very
severe. And then sometimesthings that are very nice and
sweet. We like to spice it up alittle bit with phrases like,
partner in crime. So I don'tknow, I, I think it's from my

(01:00:17):
point of view, it gives me a bigsmile. So I appreciate it. It's
ironic for sure. Yeah, for sure.
And so this, I think I know. Andwe can leave the names out and
keep it vague and all that goodstuff. But I actually think I
heard about because I was inyour class, later in the week,
second, or third day, perhaps.
And I remember coming into yourclass and knowing not

(01:00:39):
necessarily knowing thesituation, but knowing that this
was that there was a potentialfor some, you know, for some
friction, I guess. And then whatI experienced was that it was a
very mild, not like, eagerlysharing, and just all of a
sudden head of the class kind ofthing. But but it was very mild,
in terms of what I expected. Andis this the guy who had like, a

(01:01:04):
couple 1000 years on his prisonsentence or something wild?
Like? Yeah, yeah, so So I do Iknow exactly who you're talking
about. And it was, it was niceto see that my expectations
weren't met at all, it was verytame. And there was some, some
of the typical push backs orlack of desire to participate,
like not picking a type, youknow, things like that. And

(01:01:28):
those are the things that Iactually get triggered by and I
and I admire how that is handledand how that is allowed in the
class by guys such as yourself,because I don't know that I
would let somebody in let is notthe right word, obviously. But I
would struggle to go a wholeweek and or even a few days
without somebody picking theirtype. So when somebody says to
you, I'm I'm type 10, or I'm nota type, or I'm all the types,

(01:01:51):
you know,

Jan Shegda (01:01:56):
my favorite thing, either I'll tell you, and I
think what I've, what I'velearned over time, and just from
talking with other guides, itreally triggers my social
instinct. And I believe that's,that's hot for you, too, isn't
it? Clay? So it's like that, youknow, we're all here together,
can you get with the program?
Can't you, you know, be with usabout what we're here to do. And

(01:02:17):
so I can get real hot aboutthat. Until I remember that what
we're here to do is allow peopleto find their voice find their
own this is, you know, these aremy words, find their own path to
healing, understand the waysthat they've held themselves
back, and everybody has adifferent pace in doing that,

(01:02:37):
and a different way that thatshows up. And so if it's not
actively dangerous, to everyoneelse in the class, then it's in
our values to allow that andsupport it and celebrate it
even. So I'm, I'm aware that Ican have a very quick trigger,
about anything that feels likeit's not going along with the

(01:03:03):
group or impacting thecontainer, but really, that
doing things your own way.
There's no, there's no harm inthat it's not impacting the
safety of anybody else. Yeah.

Clay Tumey (01:03:21):
And that's good for for folks like me to remember to
when I when I want to just tellsomeone to cut the shit, you
know, because that's a, it'swhat I want to say. And it's not
necessary. It's just, it's justnot. And no matter how much I
want to tell it and tell someonethat just like, came on and or,
you know, someone who I think itwas in your class, also, part of

(01:03:42):
their check in was, I'm abovethe line, as always, and they
put that, as always, I'm abovethe line. And we actually, I
don't know if I told you aboutthis, but we talked about it.
Towards the end of the week, Iwent and, and this is a very
friendly, Type Three, very justone of those kinds of people,
you just you just like he's justlikable, always smiling ear to
ear, and he's, from myexperience, it's fun to be

(01:04:05):
around. But when he checked inthat, you know, as always, it
just kind of irked me a littlebit because I think that there's
something behind that. Soactually went to him and I said,
Hey, man, I'm gonna challengeyou next time you check it,
check in. Don't, don't say thatas always, and just replace it
with currently. And just see howit just test drive that just see
how it feels. And if you don'tlike it, then don't do it again,

(01:04:27):
but just just try that on forsize. And the next time he
checked in it was you know, I'mI'm currently just above the
line. And it was for me it waslike this man, you know, of
course, nobody else knew that wehad that conversation. But those
little moments like that are socool to me, because it's like,
hey, like this brick wall thathe has been walking around

(01:04:49):
holding in front of himself toprotect him as like he was given
permission to like maybe juststand to the side for a moment
so that from your class that wasone of my favorite moments.
Something as small as somebodyjust replacing, as always with
currently. And I mean, I'm surethere's tons of other positive
memories from from that weekwith you in class. Are there any

(01:05:12):
others that that come up thatare worth sharing? Yeah, I

love that story clade because even though it
sounds small, it's it's a reallybig deal that's dropping the
personality, right for a moment.
Like, actually, let's do theexercise, which is, am I open,
curious and available, let mecheck in and see if that's true
for me and report back on thatinstead of creating a
catchphrase instead of creating,you know, an ego self around,
you know, part of our check in,so it is a really big deal. And

(01:05:39):
what's coming to mind, it wasn'tfrom this year's class at RGD,
it was actually back when I hadmy first class there for my
apprenticeship. I think this was2018, maybe 2019. And we had a
student in class. And thisactually happens pretty
frequently, I would say one ortwo, folks, in any class I

(01:06:00):
guide, including some of ourpublic facing programs have
concerns around the above theline below the line concept,
which for those of you thatmight be new to you, it's just
when we check in for the day forclass, you report like you
locate yourself, Am I opencurious, here available? Above

(01:06:22):
the line? Or am I below the linemy distracted? Am I lost in some
kind of emotion and are able tofocus? You know, those kinds of
things. And this particularstudent, he was a Type Five. And
and he said, You know, I justthink that this is a dualistic

(01:06:42):
way to look at the world. I'mnot with it, and had a lot of
actual like theoretical, hewanted to get real poetic about
it. Yeah. And so it was it wastriggering for sure. It was
guiding with Dana and Susan atthe time. And what we decided to
do is just say, Okay, we don'tuse that language, can you tell
us whether you're open andavailable. And so we went

(01:07:05):
through the motions of doingthis, it was another intensive,
so it was five days in a row.
And every day, when he wouldcheck in, he would say, I am
interested to see what willhappen today. He always changed
the language, something but itcertainly wasn't above the line
or below the line. And ofcourse, the whole room was like

(01:07:26):
this guy. But then the finalclass when we were doing the
check in, he said, he said hisname, his type. And he said, I'm
above the line, and the wholeroom, just like burst into
applause because everyone waslike, so like annoyed and shit
at this guy. And so but that wasa really beautiful moment.

(01:07:49):
Because again, it's likedropping, dropping your story of
like, I'm, I'm wiser than thissystem, or it's too simple for
me, or whatever it was that wasgoing on for him. And from the
outside, be hard to see like,why is that such a big deal. But
it really it really says a lot.

I love the response from the class and that story
because it really shows, youknow, with their applause with
their support. I think, I thinksomething that maybe when I talk
about, you know, going backinside of prison and doing
classes like this, I think Ileave out a lot of times how
supportive of an environment itis, because of the participants

(01:08:28):
because of the residents, thethe people who live there who
are incarcerated. It's not youknow, if you have a room of 20
people, it's very rarely 20individuals who you are there to
do one on one with it's a class,it's a group. And there is I
don't know that I don't knowwhat word I would use. I don't
know if it's camaraderie or ifit's support or if it's

(01:08:49):
whatever. But very often thereis that element that I think
folks on the outside who'venever been inside. My it's it
doesn't it's, it's not one ofthose things that just goes
without saying, like it's worthtalking about that, that there
is a bit of a supportiveenvironment there within that

(01:09:09):
class. And it's a massive partof what makes this doable, I
think, at least was myexperience as an inmate, you
know, being in class, it's, it'snice to know that at some point,
and it's not immediate, it's notday one most of the time. But at
some point, I know that I can, Ican let the guard down a little
bit and be real, and not bejudged for it. And I have the

(01:09:32):
support of the guy sitting nextto me.

Absolutely. And the words that are coming up for me
about it are it's even more thansupport. It's almost like
loyalty or code. It's it'sreally strong. And of course as
guides, it's part of our job tomake that possible create, like
set the stage for that. But onlythe students can create that and

(01:09:57):
reinforce it and it only takesone or two people to really chip
away At that container just likewe were talking about, you know,
from the student, the examplefrom the beginning, but it's
absolutely created andmaintained by the students, it
reminds me of this most recenttime, a month ago or so. And

(01:10:18):
other Type Five really beautifulexperience where this was our
final classes actually, aftergraduation when we were back in
our cohort, were you there withus clay for that portion? I'm
trying to remember,

I think I was I was at all the graduations. But I
was also in and out. And therewas a lot of movement last
couple of days, or the last dayin particular, so it's possible,
but we'll, I don't know,actually is the answer. Okay,

well, um, at any rate, there is a really tender
moment where we had a Type Fivein the class who, who kind of
broke down, got really tearyand, you know, one of the one of
those cries where your bodystarts to betray you a little
bit, you know. And it wasamazing how everyone else in the

(01:11:12):
room held that space allowed,allowed it, no one was cracking
a joke, you know, we had a lotof jokesters in our class, you
know, as often happens, nobodywas trying to make it okay, or
redirect or anything, they justallowed him to have the time and
say what he needed to say, whichwas especially beautiful,
because this was a person whodidn't speak up in class a lot.

(01:11:36):
And, and when he had up untilthen, it was pretty, you know,
straightforward and logical.
Don't use 50 words when fivewill do. And, and so to see him
really having a moment, andeveryone there to support him,
is another another takeaway Ihave from the class that was
just really powerful.

And it's, it's something that you don't expect,
in a place where people havebeen gone, and have not had
freedom for decades. It's themovies that we see. And by the
way, some of that stuff, themovies, get it right sometimes,
but there's also a lot ofhumanity in there. And, and what
I've experienced is, is when youjust when you allow the humanity

(01:12:22):
exists, it'll, it'll show up,like, it's very, very rare that
you have to force that ontosomeone, if you just, you create
the safety for them to be thatthen that's, that's who, that's
who shows up, that's what youget, which I think is nice. It's
neat.

It's amazing, it's so human, it's inspiring. And
it's unlike, for me anyway,having facilitated the Enneagram
in a lot of different spaces,it's unlike any other space I've
worked in, people inside are sohungry for places to be real, to
let their guard down in a waythat feels authentic and safe.

(01:13:00):
And they're wanting to do thework. And it sounds like people
on the outside don't want that.
But there can be more defended.
And they have they have othersupport systems or ways where
they don't need to go there. Orat least in their minds, they
don't. So I I am every timeevery time I guide really

(01:13:21):
overwhelmed and taught actuallyby those who are inside and
their willingness to bevulnerable, authentic and do the
work.

So good. And I know that you have a lot of
experience in non prisonenvironments. I wish I could ask
a million questions about thedifference between a corporate
environment versus a prison butyou know, for the sake of time
we'll save that for another dayif you don't mind because I
really do want to know whatthose differences are. And for a

(01:13:54):
moment I kind of want to justtake a step outside of RJ
Donovan and go to that house ongosh I can't believe I forgot
the name of the street was itread I think the Airbnb that
there it felt like what werethere seven six or seven of us
there it was a lot of peopletheir guides. It was Halida

(01:14:14):
Scott, who I spoke with earlierthis week, Ariane and you Alex
and myself I think I don't knowif I forgot anybody but yeah,
you got it. What was it like?
I'm I tend to be fairlyisolated. I don't mind living
with other people but I like myspace so to speak. What What was
it like for you sharing a housewith with that many people that

(01:14:37):
you're around all day and thenagain all evening?

I honestly I loved it and it was a lot of probably
similar response. You've heardfrom everybody. To me, for me,
there's a difference of what Iwant to be able to do and what I
then realize my body allows meto due and my workload allow me
to do and those things are notoften aligned. And that

(01:15:04):
definitely came up for me theweek of RJD. But one thing I
remember clay actually that Ireally appreciated. One thing
that I remember that was kind ofa challenge was actually just
the volume at times like theyget overstimulated by just a lot
happening or, or loud talkers,or whatever, and I won't name

(01:15:24):
names or anything. A greatthing, a great thing about
Calais is, there might be six ofus, or eight or 10 of us at a
table all talking aboutsomething and clay will just
leave the table, go sit over onthe couch, like five feet away,
and somehow feel totally stillconnected to what's going on.
And I just kept thinking, I'mlike, that is genius. Why have I

(01:15:48):
not done this and like everysituation, I can possibly do it.
So but there were definitelytimes where I either when we're
doing a puzzle in another roomor went to my room and just
decompressed for our bed. But Ireally saw I felt like I maybe
didn't engage with others. And Iwasn't as proactive as I would
have wanted to be with adifferent, I guess energetic

(01:16:10):
reality, but I loved it. I woulddo it all the time.

Yeah, same here. And I'll tell you a silly story, or
a little fun fact about me thereason that I do that, it's
completely intentional, by theway and it's not, it's very
rarely is it just a random Well,fuck this, I'm out of here. It's
so when I was in prison, we, oneof the programs that I was in,
we did a weekend event aroundformal dining etiquette. And

(01:16:36):
they brought in, you know, wedid like the whole Toastmasters
thing. And we did like publicspeaking, you know, there was
like a bunch of different thingsaround this event. And part of
it was the formal diningetiquette, and all the things
that you do and don't do. And soin that I learned that at a
table, that there should onlybe, and I'm not even supporting
whether or not this is true.
That's just what I was told. Andso I've I've run with it, I

(01:16:57):
can't wait to hear it. When I amat a table, if at a table, if
there are six or fewer people,then there should only be one
conversation. And then beyondthat, it should be one
conversation, per, you know,six, in multiples of six. So if
there are six people, oneconversation, if there are

(01:17:17):
seven, then you can have two,all the way up to 12. And then
if there are 13, then you canhave three all the way up to 18.
So you get the idea. And so forme, there were six, there were
six or if we had visitors at theAirbnb, there were more than
six, but six or seven people isusually is we'd be hanging out
or at a table or doing whatever.

(01:17:40):
And, and if if multipleconversations spun up spun off,
that broke that, quote, unquote,rule that I learned, is so much.
It, it's not even like I can'thandle it or can't process the
amount of conversation is just,I'm so overwhelmed by this silly
rule that I learned, quote,unquote, rule that i It's all I

(01:18:03):
can think about and and it's astruggle for me to what like,
which conversation do I get in.
And so in an effort to solvethat problem, you know, if
there's six people at a table,and there's three conversations,
I just leave, becausemathematically, somebody is
going to be talking tothemselves, and the three
conversations will turn intoconversations, which is much
more tolerable. And if I'm at onsitting on the couch, 10 feet

(01:18:25):
away, I'm still there, I canstill hear. And I can still
throw in little one liner jokeshere and there and still be
social. And I do want to bethere. I love being in a group
like that. It's it's, I don'twant to leave. But that's my,
that's my attempt at solving.
solving that problem is just, Ican't be actively in a

(01:18:47):
conversation if I'm not at thetable, but I can passively, you
know, exist over on the couch.
So anyway, that is more wellthought out and

expected. No, I'm surprised. That's amazing.

It Yeah, in one day, I'll get to the point where I'll
have a better solution. But forthe time being that works. And
you know what? That class thatI'm talking about was over 12
years ago, so maybe that habitis going to be around for a
while and it's never like, youknow, I don't throw any jabs
like fuck this like y'all we aretalking to you, Mike Barber,
barber burn, none of that stuffis just just kind of like stand

(01:19:22):
up and moonwalk. And Alex doesit even better than that. He
just disappears and nobody knowswhen he left or how he left or
where he went. You just look upand you realize, oh, Alex is
like Houdini. He justdisappeared.

Yeah, he's just gone. Poof. Yeah.

So the one thing that I definitely want to ask
about is the bio responseprocess. And this is something
that I covered with both Halidaand Scott. And I want to ask you
what that was, like, from yourperspective. And we, we've
talked a lot about the logisticsof it. And what we haven't said

(01:19:57):
is a large part of why that waseven possible. Bull was that you
were coordinating this week,like the week that we're talking
about went down, because you didwhat you do. And yes, there was
a lot of support from the staff.
There was a lot of this are alot of that. But it all, and
correct me if I'm wrong, but Idon't think I am. It's this all
centered around you being ableto identify the house and the

(01:20:20):
who's and all that stuff. So ifyou don't mind just chat a
little bit about that process,to where we could see 60 some
odd bios and have them respondedto in a matter of days.

Yeah, well, the first thing I was gonna say is
name all the different supportareas, but you beat me to that.
So I guess I have to come upwith a different tactic here. I
guess I would say I wouldattribute any, any success maybe
that I've ever had with thesekinds of projects, to a Never

(01:20:58):
Say Die attitude. And we willjust do what we need to do until
it is done. And if it takes usall night, it will be done. And
it'll be fine. And everyone willhelp and and what I love about
ETP is ebp often starts with,you know, what's the right thing
to do? Okay, well, whatever theright thing to do is, and that's

(01:21:20):
what we're going to do. Andwhat's the right thing, if we're
asking 60 or 80 students to turnin their biography? Well, the
right thing to do is to get thema response at their graduation.
So that's what's going tohappen. So once you're committed
to that it's easy in a way,because you don't have to,
there's no, there's nonegotiation on that point. So

(01:21:41):
then you just work backwards andsay, Okay, how many dozens of
responses do we need to ask youLampert to do? And you know,
which I'm sure has already beencovered. But

yeah, she did, she did quite a few she had, she had
a lot of a lot of bottles on herplate.

She has a system also. And almost like a template
of how she responds, that Ithink is very practiced and very
effective to. And I think theway most of us do by our
responses, is perhaps allow,allow the bio to seep into us a

(01:22:25):
bit tried to really understandwhat that person was thinking,
feeling experiencing both whenthey were writing it and the
events they were writing about,and then try to craft a
response. And that can be verytaxing just in terms of
emotional energy and, and allthat. But it's very important
thing we're putting together.
But back to your question. Howdid he ever make that happen?

(01:22:47):
Just I would just say yeah,commitment and a Never Say Die
attitude. And you just keepplugging away at it until it's
done. And the biggest thebiggest hero of that story is
Jason White, who did all of theorganizing and coordinating with
each of the bio writers all the,you know, Google Sheets, magic.

(01:23:09):
So that was that was a hugehelp. And if that had also been
on my plate, that would havebeen a monster.

Were there any any moments in that whole process
where you were like, Well, shit,this isn't gonna happen. That's
not gonna work.

Oh, yeah. Yep, there are a few of those. I think one
was when we realized that weneeded to find a way to print 70
bio responses and we had I thinkwe had 16 hours to do it and
which would have been fine if itwas the only thing on my plate
that day. But I think you youactually came and helped out

(01:23:50):
with part of that clay

I went to get I went to FedEx to get something I
don't know what it was but I wasI was a runner for somebody with
that I had the morning owner atFedEx.

And then you you came in helped out with the tail
end of the collating andorganizing with of the print job
at Staples, which I spent, Idon't know how many hours more
than more than two and a half,printing it out printing out all
the bio responses and stuff andgetting them organized and

(01:24:21):
dealing with the not alwaysfunctioning correctly. machines
that we had to work with, butit's basically another life I
was an administrative assistantso you just kind of pull on
those experiences of how you getthings done. Yep, skills.

You're skilled, like, you know, just needs to
happen. You just find the way tomake it happen and then and then
it happens.

Yeah, that's it.
That's what I just said thatwhen that was summed up the
whole conversation,

right? If I wish I had that. So I actually I have
the I have the the ability a lotof times I just don't know My
give a shit is broken sometimeswhere it's just like, you know,
I really struggled to identifythe things that well I don't
struggle to identify what needsto be done, I struggled to find
the desire to do them. So whenI'm around people who have what

(01:25:15):
I lack, it's quite inspiring.
And I like it. And I try, I tryto be influenced by it. And I
try to like, you know, try thaton for size sometimes. And it's
fun to be around. And I like it.
And I think it makes makes me abetter person getting to be
around people like you and, andthe other folks who were there
with us. That we

that was definitely a place where my childhood
conditioning came in handy, youknow, Midwest work ethic and
kind of the whole Protestantwaspy. Do it before you do
anything fun kind of mentality.
It's been well, well ingrained.

That's awesome. I don't know where I learned this.
But I learned to wait until ityou know, have fun and be
miserable, miserable about whatyou're procrastinating about
while you're having fun. Andthen at least you can kind of
have fun. And then you can justbe miserable because it didn't
get done on time. So maybe,maybe I need to not do less of
that and more of how you'redoing.

I don't know, I think that that would probably
balance my life pretty well,maybe we should just swap each
other's rubies for a while.

I'm down. Let's let's give that a whirl. And
honestly, I mean, that's kind ofthe idea, right? And you know,
what I do? And what I'mcomfortable with is not all that
I need? And so can I just take alittle bit from you and take a
little bit from Scott and take alittle bit from, like, if I can
learn about what works in otherpeople's life and implement that
into my own, then I think thatprobably leads to a better,

(01:26:42):
better place. For me at least soI don't know, maybe I'm
oversimplifying what that is.

I think so I don't think so I think it's one of the
messages of Enneagram work, youknow, whatever it is you're so
fixated on it's covered, youdon't have to make it such a big
deal. Like you already as a fourI already am unique and bringing
meaning and depth, I don't haveto think that nail so hard. And
there's other ways, there'sother things that could bring

(01:27:08):
balance to my life that aremeaningful to

we had a moment where everybody was going on a
tour of the prison, and RJDonovan that week, I didn't want
to go in. And I don't know thatI was able to or it was just I
didn't want to I think I didn'twant to and I was in the parking
lot. And then you I think we'rethe fifth and they could only
have four or something likethat. So at any rate, we were
chillin in the parking lotwaiting for the others to come
back. And we had a little bit oftime to just chit chat and shoot

(01:27:35):
the shit and all that stuff.
And, and I enjoyed it. ThoseThose are like the highlights of
my week that just gettinggetting the chance to sit and
talk. And we don't, we'reseparated by so many miles and
mostly only connect over theinternet. And I enjoy stuff like
that. So I I think you're fun tobe around. And I appreciate your
time today to sit and chat withme about about that week was a
very cool week. And I'm gladthat I got to be there. And I

(01:27:58):
hope it happens again. And Ihope I get to be there for that
one too. So with all that said,I do want to just turn it over
to you. And then anything that'son your mind, we have no time
limit, I have all the space inthe world to record. So whether
it's about that week or aboutthe work in general or whatever
is on your heart, just the flooris yours.

Okay, wow. Anything I want to say a platform
finally, no, just kidding. Well,first thing I want to say is I
had forgotten about that momentclay where we were that was
after a very long day. I thinkit might have been Tuesday,
which was probably the mostchallenging day the week for me.
And I remember when I realized,you know, it's probably not

(01:28:42):
gonna really be practical for meto join this tour, which was
fine. I had already been to thefacility before. I was like, Oh,
I just got to go sit and donothing for a little bit. I was
really excited about that. Andthen I realized, oh, it's me and
clay sitting and doing nothingand and honestly, there might
not be a lot of people that knowthis about me, actually. But my
favorite thing to do with peopleI love is sit and do nothing

(01:29:05):
like just share space. And notdoesn't have to be an activity
doesn't even have to be talkingjust being together. And so I
really enjoyed that moment, too.
We did talk a bit here andthere, but I didn't feel the
pressure to like keep aconversation going or anything.
It was just this happy, happy,bright spot in the universe in

(01:29:26):
the parking lot of one of ourcity's buildings. I love that.
But generally about just RDD andEPP work. I guess the only thing
I want to say is how much thisidea of we do the work together
is really real and is really athing and there's no such thing

(01:29:49):
as arriving or making it orhaving been with CBP for a
certain amount of time so thatyou're not in the work for
yourself all the time. Every dayand and that really keeps me
honest. And I think I think weall need that. I can just, I'll
speak for myself, I think I needthat I need a place that is
going to continually bring itback to what am I doing for my

(01:30:12):
inner work because it's easy forme to lose myself in a to do
list or a way I can make adifference. And for me that can
also be falling asleep to myheart to my ego patterns and a
bunch of things that are hardfor me and the people that love
me. So I just Yeah, I think Iwant to end with that. This was

(01:30:36):
fun. I appreciate theinvitation. Thanks for having me
on.

For more information about EPP, please visit
Enneagram prison project.org Weappreciate your time and
attention today. Stay tuned forfuture episodes of the podcast
which you can expect on thefirst Tuesday of every month as
we continue to tell the story ofthe Enneagram Prison Project.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 16: RJ Donovan

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Episode 16: RJ Donovan

On Purpose with Jay Shetty