Episode 18: Making the Decision

In this episode, we go back in time to October 2015 for a conversation with EPP Founder Susan Olesek and EPP Ambassadors Victor Soto and Clay Tumey about opening up on the inside, being willing to look at a new way, and making the decision to take the first step in a new direction.

For more information about EPP, please visit EnneagramPrisonProject.org.

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Hi, my name is Clay. And this isthe Enneagram Prison Project
podcast. As most of you know, westarted this podcast about a
year and a half ago in April of2021. With the intention to tell
the story of EPP and celebrating10 years of the Enneagram Prison
Project. However, what you mightnot know is that this wasn't our

(00:27):
first attempt at doing an EPPpodcast. Back in the fall of
2015, just over seven years ago,we actually had four ish
episodes of the podcast thatwent up on Facebook and YouTube.
And well actually don't remembereverywhere that it went up. And
I say four ish episodes, becausethe fourth episode was actually
cut into two parts, part one andpart two. And unfortunately,

(00:50):
Part Two was never edited andreleased, so nobody ever heard
it. And to put it lightly, andalways bothered me quite a bit
that nobody ever heard thatsecond part, because I really
enjoyed it. And I thought it wasgood. So I decided to go through
and find those old files andedit them together. For this
episode of the podcast. A fewrelevant facts that you'll need

(01:13):
to know before we begin heretoday, is first of all, this
conversation happened in Octoberof 2015. And it involves EPP
founders, Susan Olesek andVictor Soto, who is one of our
earliest ambassadors with EPPand of course, I'm there with
them. So you'll hear the threeof us talking together. And also

(01:33):
back then EPP was still prettyyoung. And we didn't have the
few bazillion folks that we havenow. And I kind of say it's kind
of cool living here in thefuture that we dreamed about so
many years ago. So I think,yeah, I think that's enough. I
think I think that's enough of apreface here. So please join me
now as we travel back in timefor this episode of The

(01:55):
Enneagram Prison Projectpodcast.

(02:19):
We have a third friend with usthis morning. And so from
Arizona, I wanted to check inand see how things are going
your way, Vic.
Things right now going prettygood. Right now things are
probably the best in my life.
Things have ever gone. Yeah, asfar as working wise, health
wise. The way I think the way I,like just respond in life. It's

(02:48):
just a whole differentatmosphere for me.
So just for a point ofreference, I want to ask, so
we're in October here. And wherewere you October of light? Where
were you this time last year injail? And you still had a couple

(03:08):
months left, right?
I did. I had two months.
So when you were sitting, youhad already met Susan and have
gone through the course a coupletimes by the end, right.
I was. Yeah, I did. I met Susan.
And I think it was in my fifthclass.
And we were buds by then yeah,we were best friends.

(03:32):
You're happy to see you by thenlike those.
That's all I could wait for wasto go back to class. And anytime
that administration tried togive me a problem about going to
class after a fit.
I cancelled it.
I had I had a positive argumentgoing on the argument. Positive

(03:57):
arguments?
Well, it's a bit of a dilemma,right? Because you really want
the class and you can't justthrow fit, and you know it. And
so I don't think that's totallyaccurate. What do you mean, you
know, really, but I mean,anytime that they try to give me
a problem about it, I mean, Iwould not really argue about it,
but I will stand up for myself,you know, because it was

(04:19):
something that I wanted to do.
It was something that I was soinvolved in and I just felt like
at times they were trying totake that away from me to try to
break me.
So a lot of people who've neverbeen locked up don't really
understand why. You know, like askeptic, somebody like me would
hear you say that. And I wouldthink Come on. That's why why

(04:41):
would anybody do that? They'rejust guards doing their job. You
know, they're just, you know,good people. There's, you know,
there's no reason for them toreally keep you out of class.
But I think people don'tunderstand sometimes that's
actually very real. So what isit you know? What is it about?
You know, being loved That makesit toward you know, everybody

(05:01):
else, you don't have the freedomto just go and do what you want.
But how often would you seeyourself in a position to where
you just couldn't go dosomething that you needed to do
or a class you needed to take orsomething like that?
Well, it's an everyday thing.
It's not that it happensperiodically, actually happens
every day.

(05:22):
It doesn't matter is like, whatwhat's their? What's their
motivation? Like, why? Why dothey
have control issues? They'rescared to just let people be and
do what they have to do theyjust so they go out of their way
to make it their business tomake your life miserable, or
make you have to sit there andargue or fight your way just to

(05:45):
get somewhere. I was like thatwhen I was taking my GED class,
it was like that when I wastaking my computer classes. And
it was definitely like day one,after I left the program that I
was in and wanted to go into theEnneagram.
Did you ever encounter the theflip side of that, and guards
who were who were actually good,good to you, for lack of a

(06:08):
better phrase, and wereencouraging or helped you get to
what you needed to be the classyou needed to be to? Or
whatever? Did you ever exposethe flip side?
Well, there was a, there wasmaybe one or two different
correctional officers there atthe time, that seeing where I
was before, and who I wasbefore, because they known me

(06:31):
from doing time and pass tillthe program and the stuff that I
was doing now. And they were theones that were giving me
encouraging words and letting goand everything was all right,
and say something to their COcoworker. So yeah, I've seen the
flipside.
I think I understand what you'reasking clay. And I've had that

(06:51):
same thought, you know, I seesome rosy picture of guys that
are happy to be in my class andwe get in the room and we do
good work, I don't see all thestuff that happens within trying
to get in can't get past thegate can't get the guard can't
get my pass. I hear thesestories, and I don't think fixed
making it all up. I know thatthis stuff exists. And it kind
of begs the question what like,why would it be that way? Like
you're saying clay, I think ourattitude in our countries,

(07:12):
there's a blurred line betweenpunishment and reform. And
people mistakenly think thatwhen somebody's in jail, that's
the time to punish them isactually like being in jail is
the punishment, right is the isthe thing they're already in
now, they actually need to dotime to heal, and to learn and
to grow. But it's not really anenvironment that caters to that.

(07:32):
And I think that the guards thatend up in there, and many ways
aren't equally hurting part ofthe population. And and I think
fixed, right, I think there arecontrol issues. And that's why
people end up in thosepositions, we gravitate to the
thing that we need to learn whyyou think I go teach the
Enneagram because I'm so hard onmyself and miserable in my own
personal prison. So I want toget out. And we just bring all

(07:52):
our projections. I mean, ifyou're this morning, just
sitting around the table likemy, my two sons, one is trying
to pass the person the thingthat he wants. And my my eighth
son is like, you know, you'reyou're taking that from me, and
it sounds like it to us, youknow, and then we all listen,
we're like it's a projection.
I'm the one that said it's aprojection and like 30 seconds
later, I started to spill thecoffee on the floor as I'm

(08:13):
transferring it to the canisterand Rick innocently says you'll
need help you pour that into thecanister. And I said, Well,
after you're not sarcastic withme, like, I'm not being
sarcastic with you, right? Wejust project all over the place
and take that too. It's reallyunhealthy. And you put it in a
correctional facility withpeople with control issues. I
have control issues, the guardshave control issues and mates
have control issues and whoperfect petri dish.

(08:37):
So when you say that the guard,you know, they're there. I
forget as you use, but they'rehurting to potentially at least.
And yeah, so what do you think?
I mean, we don't have an EPP forguards, or at least we don't
yet. But would they? Could youever see a point? Just
hypothetically speaking, couldyou ever see a point where the

(08:58):
guards were going through theclass? Maybe even with the
inmates?
Yeah, I have thought about that.
That's my ideal. I think we're alittle ways from that. But I
have had requests from differentcorrectional officers in
different facilities saying,doing in there. And when I go
through the gate, every timewith my poster, and I bring in

(09:20):
books back and forth, I'vegotten into dialogue, and
they're definitely curious, andthe administration is definitely
figuring out where to put it in.
It's not like a you know, ifit's a it's a well, what would
you think? If you were you weregoing you were in class still
locked up? And and a guard wasin there with you? How would you

(09:40):
feel about that? Would it bewould it be funky? Or would you
be like, Okay, this guy'slooking to, you know, do some
work on himself. Like, wouldthat be cool? Or would you be
kind of turned off by that?
I think it would all depend onthe situation if the guard
actually joined the class andactually, you know, Need to stay

(10:00):
in the class the whole timeuntil the class is over. And I'm
talking about the eight weeks,I'm not talking about the stat
class. And he shared with ussome real personal information
or shared somebody's personalphone. So it would be I would be
more comfortable. But if a guardjust walks in and wants to sit
in class, I'll shut down andI'll stop talking.

(10:20):
So becauseI don't, I don't feel that he
shouldn't be. I just don't feelthat he has a right to sit in
that class while I'm sharingsomething about myself. And they
would probablystill go. I mean, that would
probably go for anybody, right?
Even if it were just anotherinmate, if they just kind of
plopped down and set you know,they just filled a chair for a
couple hours and didn't reallyparticipate. Everybody, like for

(10:43):
some reason, you just kind ofyou noticed that that person is
there, and it kind of makes it,it hinders us, it makes it to
where we can't talk as much. Butif, but if somebody gets
involved, you know, like, onething about when Susan does
class is, it's, it's a circle,everybody sits in a circle, the
chairs are arranged. It's notlike a bunch of chairs facing
her, and then she's teachingyou. So if somebody were to get

(11:07):
into the circle, and they're butthey're not emotionally or
energetically in, you know, inthe mix of things, it kind of
breaks things up, right?
It does. I think it's just, youknow, I think it's a level of
participation in the class,right? It's, you got, like,
you're saying, you got somepeople that just aren't there

(11:28):
just to hear that participate?
It makes you reallyuncomfortable? Because it makes
you think, like, Why is thisperson even really here? Or what
is this? What is being smoldersbehind? Coming to this class,
I'm not saying that.
I think it's all about how, likeyou say how they come in,
because we actually bringvisitors in total strangers,

(11:49):
many, many times forgraduations, when, you know,
could be like the mostvulnerable sharing right of time
of closure. And we bring guestsin just even week one, week two,
just learning types. But Ialways insist that when people
come in, they're willing to haveenough Enneagram understanding
where they've picked a type. Andthen we make that our common

(12:09):
language. So as if anybody eversays something that is self
disclosing or not, it's not selfdisclosing, we can always bring
it back to that map andobjectively kind of inquire more
about something to try to try toget it to be more, more
vulnerable, because it's justnot like you both are saying
it's not fair. It's not doesn'twork to have vulnerable

(12:31):
vulnerability, only happening onone half of the room.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's,that's when I took the class, it
was actually not yet a class itwas Susan coming in teaching a
different program. So my, myperspective is totally
different, which it I kind ofenvy the guys who are going
through class now because it's,it's an eight week course rather

(12:53):
than a two day, you know, CrashCourse or whatever you want to
call it. So I think Vic, youkind of got to experience it a
lot better than I did. When Iwhen I first went through, you
went through the class more thanonce, actually more than twice,
five times. I think it wasright. Yes. So when you but I
want to go back to the firstclass because Susan said

(13:15):
something about this a minuteago, and it made me it made me
I've heard this story before.
But I want you to tell when youwhen you first when you first
Yeah, we're gonna go there.
I mean, well, I told I asked himbefore we went on, I said, Is
there anything we can talkabout? He said, Now we're good.
So I'm gonna, I'm going to takeadvantage of that. Right? That

(13:41):
first, that first time that youwere in class, tell us? Do you
remember? Do you remember whatit was like going to EPP for the
first time?
Well, going into the class hewas. So I took the classes to
kill some extra time that I had.
And I was so bored of my otherclass that I was in that I

(14:04):
needed something to kill threehours of my day. And Susan just
happened to come in and pitchyour class and I signed up and
when I actually sat in a class,I was slouched down. I had my
head kind of down. I wasn'treally. I was interested, but I
was not interested. You know, itwas just something new. So when

(14:29):
I sat there, I sat there forlike two classes, three classes.
And by the third class, Ibelieve it was I started to
really pay attention to what wasgoing on. And
stop you there real quick. And Iwant to ask you when you're just
sitting in class for those firstcouple of weeks, and like the

(14:51):
image I get when you say you'reslouched down with your head
kind of forward or whatever theimage I get is like this teenage
kid who's being forced to gosomewhere and just they Hate
where they're at? Is that isthat kind of is that accurate?
Well, I didn't, maybe whereyou're at, but it's, it's more
like they're out of obligationrather than something that you
want to be doing. Right?

(15:12):
It was it was definitely that.
So what do you do? What do youthink about the things that are
being talked about? And collect?
Susan is a no, no, no, I knowhow Susan is when she teaches
and stuff like that. But whatare you thinking about? At that
point? Are you even listening?
Are you just kind of occupyingspace and time there?
So I was okay, so I was not. Ifyou looked at me, it will look

(15:36):
like I wasn't paying attention.
Right. Right. But it to tell youthe truth, I paid attention from
the first class. And I thinkwhat it was is that there was
individuals in the class thatmaybe I was uncomfortable with
or in have a relationship withmore we didn't talk before. So I
knew nothing about him. Youknow, Susan went around the room

(16:02):
and talk to each individual guy,and he started sharing. So by
the third class, was sittingover my chair, and when it was
much easier to talk, my talk,and what do you talk about?
Well, we talked about, so Italked about some real personal

(16:25):
stuff, as far as what's going onmy father, and what happened to
our family? What he like mebecoming part of the system
since I was six years old,running the streets at seven,
getting high and using drugs ata very young age, while hanging
around the wrong crowd ofpeople. But I think the most

(16:48):
like, personal thing, I talkedabout what is what happened with
my father, because a person likeme, in jail or prison, they'll
talk about stuff like that, youknow, we despise people and
cause harm to people like that.
For stuff like my father did. SoI think that kind of caught

(17:09):
Susan off guard when I waswilling to share that much. And
how open I was.
Is that true? Susan?
I think you did. I think thatwhat you taught me in the class,
I learned gradually over thosefirst eight weeks, because
remember, I, I come from my ownprojections, and my own really

(17:31):
hard inner critic. And evenbefore I met you in, in Texas
clay, like my projections wouldpersist, those guys are too hard
to broken, they're not gonnaunderstand on to white to
female, all that stuff goingthrough my head. So I think I'm
bringing the best I can bringbut I'm reading Vic's body
language and everything abouthim says, I don't want to be
here. And so the way I had togrow is to force myself to ask

(17:53):
him, do you want to be here andyou know, and call him on
thinking it was an eight thatreally feeling like
energetically oh my god, youfeel like such a nine and trying
to get to more practice more. Aconversation where the the
dialogue is working better, andonly what works better is to
actually pick the right type. Sothat I'm saying something that

(18:14):
feels really poignant to him. IfI'm talking to him from an eight
perspective, it's not going towork. So I had to kind of find
my way and insist on on engagingwith Vic, even though everything
about him was saying, don'tengage with me. And so that
really has taught me so much andgoing forward. Like I never
trust the body language. Andyesterday, I taught you know, a

(18:38):
company with a bunch ofengineers and salespeople and
you know, same thing bodylanguage and my projections and
I just take a breath and then Iasked like, what do you what's
really going on in there isnever the way it's like that's
those are covers. So yeah, youdid take me take me off.
I've seen you do this quite afew times. Where you I don't
know I don't know what the rightterm is. But I think it's it's

(19:00):
not really aggressive but you'renot scared to get in the mix
with with with the inmates, youknow, guys that you're working
with, you're not scared to callthem on stuff or to put them on
the spot or to ask them thatquestion. Is that really true?
And I wonder like I think mostpeople would would be a little
scared frankly, of going intoplace like that. nevermind the

(19:23):
fact that you're locked in aroom with with a bunch of you
know, men who are presumablypretty tough and could do some
some damage physically, youknow, but what is it? Have you
ever thought Have you ever hadany sense of fear about putting
people on the spot and gettingyou know, kind of getting not
getting in their face but youknow what I'm saying like you're
just not scared to to go there.
And I think a lot of peoplewould be I think I probably

(19:45):
would bethink what I'm most scared of is
not not reading some do wellenough to know how much more I
can push, and not trusting thatI have the good instinct about
that. And I actually have verygood instincts about that. But

(20:09):
when I feel my projection moreand more ungrounded, then I
don't read it well, and I feelvery tentative. So I think that
where I've grown is, I am more.
I, you know, once I have thisintegrity thing, like I feel
more pressure about leaving theexchange with somebody who's

(20:34):
participating in the class, butsomething valuable that I do
about worrying about did I notdo it right or whatever. I don't
know if that makes sense. So itreally, really matters to me
that I do something worthwhileon in there. And I think the
thing that's been so helpfulabout letting me get over that
hump is just like what you guyssaid earlier, not having a guard

(20:54):
in the room or not havinganything else except for the
guys and me, or the women in me.
And I just feel like when it'slike that, we're just people,
we're just human, and we just, Ican go there and I can feel my
instincts. And I've learned fromjust from time to say like, can
I? Can I push you? Can I askmore? Are you willing to say
more? And usually, the way I getaround that is I share a little

(21:16):
bit about me, and then theytrust me. And as we do this sort
of dance, you know, we figure itout as we go.
I'm hearing you say that youhave great instincts. And by the
way, I agree I've seen you doyou know, I've seen you do your
thing. And I just totally agreewith that statement. But for
somebody like me who if ifeither I do have the the
instincts, but not theconfidence to trust him? Or

(21:38):
maybe I just don't have thatinstinct, nearly to the degree
that I wish I did how, how wouldI or somebody else listening? Or
watching to this? I'm wonderinghow how is it that you learn?
How do you grow that ability? Orhow do you learn to trust your
instincts? Or you know, what,what is the process like for
somebody like me, who is perhapsa little timid or even, or even

(22:01):
scared to go into thatsituation?
Yeah, I think you follow thesame map. That's what the
Enneagram gives all of us thepractical tactical way through
for you as a five is differentthan it is for me as a one. But
it so I know that fives tend tonot trust their own inner

(22:22):
guidance. And so they go up inyour head and overthink it and
come up with a lot when maybetalk too much or you know, talk
about somebody and come off asarrogant. Those are the you
know, pitfalls of being in yourego as a five. So it's different
from me as a one. But it's thesame way out right use put your
feet on the ground, take abreath, get present. Remember

(22:43):
who you are, remember your owntender heart. Remember your own
vulnerability and your ownsensitivity, you have that in
spades. People say fives are themost sensitive on the Enneagram.
And stop thinking, and then justtrust that exactly what you need
to say is going to come out andit does the same for everybody.
I appreciate the bravery in youtelling a five to stop thinking,

(23:03):
by the way. I don't know that'sa that's that's a struggle a lot
of times but i like i like theanswer. And, you know,
specifically where you say, youknow, it's different for you.
Because, you know, you're afive, I'm a one. And that's, you
know, I have a lot of friendsand family who don't know that
much about the Enneagram. Butthey're curious because they
know, the role that it plays inmy life. And that's the that's

(23:25):
kind of my selling point, so tospeak, is that, you know,
there's all these different waysto do to do things. And when you
say when I asked you for adefinite answer on something,
and you say, well, it'sdifferent for people, because
we're all we're all kind ofdifferent, we're doing things
kind of our own way. So what'sright for you or what works for
you might not be the case forme. So that's, that's one of
those things, it's just reallyimportant to know, and that I

(23:49):
really want to just point out topeople because I think some of
the folks you know, especiallylistening to this or watching
this, they're still kind offeeling their way through the
Enneagram. And, and wonderinglike what it's all about and,
and that's it that's to me,that's that's what a lot of it
is about is that we're doingthings differently, and they're
not right and wrong. It's justdifferent. So

(24:10):
and we are all learning that aswe go right and you know, Nick
was saying in the beginningright just for you to know that
you wanted to take the class andknow what you want and put
yourself out there like that'sthat's your edge as a nine and I
think the thing that like peopleask who is EPP one of our core
values is to be transparent andwe insist on that doesn't work

(24:32):
if you're not so if you're notwilling to tell everybody in the
room that your defense is to bearrogant and to no more than
everybody then they're going tosniff you out. Right? You've
taught me that. And Vic ifyou're not willing to say, I
don't like to stir the pot,right? I don't like to create
the conflict. I don't like toyou know, push too much or make
too big deal on myself. They'regoing to sniff it out. You can't

(24:54):
lead a class when you're slumpedover in your chair, right? You
got to do the leader. Peoplethought you were anyway so you
have to think You r1 And thatreminds me I didn't I didn't ask
at the beginning, Vic, what whatis? What is your type? Type
Nine? How long did it take you?
Because you said you werelistening in class? You know,
the whole time, maybe maybe yourbody language didn't give that

(25:14):
away. But how long? Or rather,when? Do you remember the moment
where you said, Okay, this is,this is my time. Now a lot of
things make sense, or was itgradual?
So, again, when Susan came inand did her, her class, and she
did her little thing in front ofeverybody, she was reading,

(25:36):
chat, there's nine paragraphs.
And it was stuck between theeight and the nine, because I
know when I'm in custody, andI'm doing serving time, I have a
lot more eight, right? But whenshe got to the nine, it was kind
of scary, because it's like,well, how can she be reading
something, how I feel on theinside, you know what I mean?

(25:57):
Like, how I feel mentally he'sever thinking that I feel is
different. But when she'sreading this nine paragraph is
like, that's what really scaredthe hell out of me. She's up
there. And then she is like,describing me. But so I think I
would, I got more of a defensiveside. And I didn't want to be a

(26:21):
nine, I want it to be that a, Iwant it to be that that person
that everybody was afraid of, Iwanted to be that person that
everybody respected in the wrongway. But by the third by the
third class, I couldn't, Icouldn't deny it or couldn't

(26:41):
fight in a more. It's like,okay, this is me. I need to
learn to deal with theseaccepted. How can I work with it
to where it exists in my life.
So when, when it came time whenyou know, when you were going
through the class that firsttime, and it came time to find
out or to discuss, you know, howyour how your type contributed

(27:04):
to your incarceration? Do youremember much about that, or
connecting the dots and saying,Okay, this is kind of how I've
gotten to where I am right now?
Well, you know, I actually did,because it's like, I was trying
to figure out why, why do I notlisten to myself? Why do I not
listen to my gut feeling? Why doI not pay attention to myself?

(27:28):
Why do I think that everybodyelse needs are more important
than mine? And I just didn'thave a frickin answer to that.
You know, I mean, I couldn't, Icouldn't just like, why that was
the answer. Those, the onlyquestion I had was why. And when
we started going to theEnneagram, started reading on

(27:48):
types and actually read it atnight, I understand what I mean,
because I didn't, I didn't thinkthat my self worth was worth
anything. I didn't think I wasimportant. And I didn't think me
being home for myself with myfamily was important. I always
thought that, you know, becausethese people needed how wamogo

(28:08):
helped him move quick,regardless of what the cost is.
And when I did that, it was likepeople wanted me around or, you
know, they praise big, like,Hey, this is called Big, he'll
do this, you can help us withthis. It was just like, this
one. I was stuck in a spiral Icouldn't get out of. And now I

(28:31):
know why.
So. So you're going throughclass, Vic, that first time and
when it's over with like you soyou realize a lot of things
about yourself about how youknow that you have this thing
called a Type, you know thatyour Type Nine, and you and you
can kind of go back into thepast and see how it's how it's
how it's impacted your life. Andthis class? I think it is it

(28:56):
fair to say that that kind ofthat was a was that a pivotal
point for you did that did thatfirst time going through class,
impact your time, at least as ifnot your life, at least as you
know, your time being locked up?
I can tell you this. It's notonly because it's not because I
want to sit there and makepeople believe that, you know,

(29:19):
this is the greatest thing, orthat this is the most beautiful
thing in the world. But I knowwhen I took this class, and I
really truly understood theEnneagram and my type and my
structure, my defense mechanism.
I knew like it just made my lifea whole lot easier. It made my
life a whole lot better. I had alot better, a more clear
understanding about otherindividuals and found myself and

(29:40):
I went to tell you the truthwhen the class ended on a 12
week because it was a 12 weekcall either class. And then when
the class ended the 12 weeks. Iwas kind of heartbroken. Like,
there was something that I wasgoing to be missing. because
it's like me going through thisclass made my time disappear.

(30:02):
Because during this class I washuman. I was Victor. I wasn't an
inmate, I wasn't worn stripes. Iwas looked at as an individual
as a person. And that made mywhole miserable 24 months in
that county, just like that muchbetter.

(30:29):
So what comes up for you Susan?
I can we can't see each otherbut I can hear you.
Kind of makes me it kind ofmakes me teary because I
I just think like, how can it beotherwise? How can you you're so

(30:55):
human Vick and you so muchheart. And it's tragic to be in
that place and to be pinningyour whole time on three hours
in a week, you know, when thereare all these other people
around you, like I so I wish itwere different. I wish the
system was different. I wish Iwould really like to teach a

(31:17):
class there every day and createa real community, a lot of
people who remember that they'rehuman, so that they can be that
support for each other, I thinkthat you kind of get that for
one or two people in the classor maybe for most of the folks
in the class. And we've beenwanting to, and are poised now

(31:37):
to do more in the jail. And theother jails, the facilities that
we're into. And I think, I guesswhen I hear that, I just think
it's so so sad. And you're sucha hero to me that you held on
your heart somehow. And all thestuff that's happened in your
life. And just sitting you'refeeling really moved, I think

(31:59):
just really touched by whatyou're saying and sharing.
And I forget, and until youbring bring us back to the point
that this happens in jail, Iforget that we're even talking
about something that's going onin prison, I forget that we're
talking about a guy who waslocked up at the time. And to
us, it's normal to think therest of our culture, we still

(32:20):
have this kind of weirdperspective on prison. And we
think that we shouldn't likeguys in prison don't deserve
this kind of love or care, orwhatever. And, Susan, I have a
good idea for what you thinkabout that. But I want to ask
Vic, like, what what do you sayto people? Who, who have that

(32:41):
mentality of, you know, if youcan't do the, you know, time,
don't do the crime, go to prisonand just do your thing. And
that's what you get people whohave this mentality of, you
know, you as an inmate as an excon, you know, convicted
criminal, don't deserve thiskind of a program. I mean, what
what do you what do you say tosomebody who has that mentality?

(33:06):
It's unfortunate that theybelieve that way. It's sad that
they can sit here and think thatindividuals such as myself don't
deserve a second chance in life,that we can't change. You know,
when even if I see somebodyappear in Prescott, and they
look at me strange, and, youknow, we're just sit there and

(33:28):
talk and they have no idea whatI do. And they like, pass
judgment on me as like, I'm justthis ex con and troublemaker.
And, you know, it kind of blowstheir mind when I tell them
Well, I work at a I'm asupervisor at a Drug and Alcohol
Treatment Center. And then I'm ahousing director for a program

(33:49):
called next step. So I overseehouse managers and oversee the
program. And we blows her mindwhen I tell him Yeah, I spent 16
years of my love behind him wasand I've done a lot of bad
things. But you know what,today, I'm not that person.
Today, I'm the person that Itruly want back then. And I want
it to be in that I knew that Iwas. And when you know, the look

(34:14):
on their face is priceless tome. And there's nothing I could
do to describe the way they lookand how fast they just stopped
talking. Because you know what?
before you pass judgment on me,I think you need to learn me and
you need to get to know me on amore personal level in know me
as a person, not for tattoos andnot for the bald head not for

(34:35):
the mustache, not my past, butfor who I am now.
And I don't want to just glossover the fact that you just said
that you spent 16 years behindthose walls and people you know
it's not like you just had a badday and then went to prison. I
mean, this was a this was an I'mnot putting words in your mouth,

(34:59):
correct me if I'm wrong But thiswas a lifestyle. This was not
just a couple of bad choicesthat you made somewhere along
the line. This was, this wasthis was the who you were as how
you were living your life,right?
Yeah, that was my lifestyle. AndI like me. I talked to Susan
about it a few times. And, youknow, I tell her, you know how
people usually get up and go towork and they do their life over

(35:24):
and over again. That's how I wasin prison. It was just a
lifestyle. For me, it was partof my life, and you go into
work, be going to prison, and medoing negative stuff was just a
part of my life. I was like Iwas so institution. Wow. I will
say I was borderlineinstitutionalized. But somehow,

(35:46):
someway. I broke that cycle. AndI broke that way that train of
thought. And, you know, Irealized that no, I'm not
institutionalized. And just makebad decisions.
I'm curious, curious, Nick, forus, what's the definition of
institutionalized? How are youborderline with what went

(36:06):
through your head there whenyou're trying to define it for
yourself?
You know, like,institutionalized? Is this a
place where I can see myself forthe rest of my life? And
sometimes I said, Yes. I, therewas no other life that I knew. I
didn't know how to live anyother way. You know, I thought
Nico gave hackers around me or,you know, I went to prison,

(36:28):
like, Okay, I'm cool. You know,this is nothing right here on
the golf in five years, and I'llbe all right. And I was already
mentally prepared myself towhere it's like, you know what,
nothing else matters. Theoutside world is gone. I knew
how to cut off civilization frombehind the walls. I knew how to
like distance myself fromrelationships, and personal life

(36:51):
than the life that I live behindthe wall. And when I actually
started learning about myself, Iactually thought those answers
like, No, this is not where Iwant to be for the rest of my
life. This is not who I reallyam. And it's like, I wanted
something different. I needed amodel to better I wanted to
break this cycle. I wanted toprove not just to myself, but to

(37:14):
society that anybody can change.
Yeah, and that's, that's areally good point to make.
Because, you know, people likeyou people like me, you know,
some are other ambassadors.
We're not just like, we're notlightning in a bottle. I mean,
this, this happens to otherpeople, like people, believe it
or not, people actually change.

(37:35):
And it's just a matter ofrealizing, you know, what I'm
tired of, I'm tired of livingthis same old life and getting
the same old results. And, youknow, I was only locked up once
and that, you know, that, thatthat was my path, but every
everybody else has, everybodyhas their own journey that they
go down. And at some point, youjust get sick of it, and you
realize, you know, I have thepower to, to make a change in my

(37:59):
own life, or at least, you know,like I said, I don't want to
speak for you. But I mean, isthat true? Like, you have this
moment where you realize, okay,I actually am in control. I'm
the one doing all this stuff.
You know, I, I did, I used toblame a lot of people I used to,
you know, if it wasn't for them,I wouldn't be here. But you know

(38:20):
what, being actually in reality,everything was made by decision
and by choice. I may have beenpushed or nudged in that
direction. But I still knewright from wrong, I still knew
if I can make the right decisionor not. I just chose not to
listen to Micah. And I justchose not to listen to myself.

(38:40):
And, you know, sadly to say thatit cost me my 20s and have my
30s. And it it's time that Ican't, that I can't give back.
But it's time that I can makeyou know, it's time that I can
repair. Yeah, I can't get theyears back, but I can repair

(39:01):
everything that I've done.
So as that first class goes on,and it was the pilot program, or
the first, I think it was 12weeks, right. So when when it
gets near the end, and youmentioned being heartbroken
because it was over with. Butthat wasn't the end of it.
Right? You You were you wereable to take the class the

(39:24):
second time, right?
So my first, well, yes, butbefore the class ended, I asked
her, Are we gonna be able tocome back? And she said, yeah,
you graduates can come back. AndI came back and I am staying for
five classes because I wasn'teligible for early release. And
soI want to cut you off real quick
because I want to ask you, wewhen I talked about this last

(39:44):
week, like I'm wondering, whywould you go you know, somebody
who you know, or just doesn't itdoesn't make sense to them. Why
would you go through a classthat you've already been through
once or twice or three times orfour times? Like what where's
the bin fit in going throughthis class over and over.
So the benefit for me was thatone, I was going to a class that

(40:09):
I was really enjoying, you know,I actually started, like,
needing to share with otherindividuals, not just the same
13 or 15 that were in thatclass. But it was like, every
time we had a class, there wasonly three of the same guys and
everybody else is new. Andeverybody else eras somebody

(40:31):
different always got to get toknow me on a more personal
level. And, you know, there wereI don't think there was an any
more greater reward than to seethe local and, and the way they
thought about me change youknow, because again, you know, a
lot of people looked at me as Iwas this guy that was

(40:52):
intimidating served a lot oftime in prison I was very I was
well known and it's kind ofscares people, I guess, in a
sense, and when they get to knowme on a personal level, they're
like, just boosted my okay, Isaid that just, you know, the

(41:19):
adrenaline started pumping itwas in a good way. I started
becoming happy. Not alwaysdepressed.
It's like life is coming,cutting back a little bit. I
think that when I hear you talkabout it, that when you could
articulate this part of yourselfthat had been really even asleep

(41:41):
to as you start waking up to it,and you start describing it, and
then you see that other peoplealso see it but you get that
reflected back to you. It's likeyour life force comes back in
you remember, each time and thattelling who you really are and
so much about the awareness. Andso, for me this morning, it's
like, every time you share itevery time you say it out loud,
it's like that and then thelayers fall away and that's the

(42:03):
cool thing. That's why awarenessis such an enormous step is just
knowing just looking and I can'tchange anything that we can't
see and then when you speak itthat's really
I work around a lot of addictsall day long. You know, they'll
ask me how I'm doing. I tellthem to today even on my worst

(42:27):
day, I'm good. Like I'm happyeven on my worst day I'm good.
Like there's nothing in thisworld that's going to defeat me
more or hold me backWell, fortunately, you didn't
get to take the class A sixthtime because you got out
Yeah, you know, and that was thelife changer right there when I

(42:48):
got outwhen when when you got out I
know. Well, I'll just let youtell him what was it like you
wake up the morning that they'regonna let you go you obviously
knew about that you know inadvance so when when it's time
to no longer be an inmate and goback to just being Victor Soto
What was that like? Walk usthrough what it's like to get

(43:10):
out of jailhonestly, to tell you I was
scared I did all this work andyou know, I didn't know what was
going to be waiting for me.

(43:31):
And then that was the scary partand if I didn't have somewhere
to go I knew where I was gonnago I was an intern back in the
old neighborhood do the samething. And all this work and
beliefs and it would have beenfor nothing and to tell you the

(43:54):
truth walk into the gate to getout. I was shaking. I was like
tearing up my mind by you knowliterally arguing with myself
and thinking the worst thingspossible and then when I got to
the gate I saw Susan hits youreally hard

(44:40):
take a breath pick on just for ayear to feel and that with you.
And a lot of people think thatgetting out of prison is like
this joyous like very like youjust run out screaming and
hollering and the fear that youtalk about is normal like that
is it's it's it's hard todescribe you know, it's a You

(45:00):
don't know what's gonna happen,it's you get used to this
environment of being an inmateand being controlled, they give
you your food, they give you theplace to stay. I mean, you're
just kind of let out and, andall this stuff happens. And
then, you know, you, when you'vewhen you've spent a year with
Susan, you know, three hours aweek, and you get out, you know,

(45:23):
people people have theirfamilies or their their homies
or from the hood or whatever,and, you know, to have someone
there, you know, to walk out andsee Susan, like, I know. That's,
that's, that's a that's a bigdeal. Because, you know, I think
I would assume that that kind ofvalidates that, you know, life

(45:46):
on the outside. Like that, youknow, this is a pretty good
start, right?
So, you know, I had, there was acouple other people there
waiting for me. I didn't seethem, I saw Susan, because for

(46:06):
the first time in my life,serving time being around
people, somebody did exactlywith this. And, and the reason
why I say it's hard to talkabout is because, you know, I
think and I believe I stronglybelieve that. Because Susan is

(46:29):
show that saved my life. And itkept me from having to go back
to a lifestyle that I hated mywhole life.
I think the thing that I'mfeeling, when I hear you tell

(46:50):
that story that gives that, youknow, I was taking a leap of
faith to for the record, I'venever done that before, I
haven't done that, since I maynever be able to do that again.
And I don't think I knew quitehow at risk you were, because I
know you're a survivor. And willneither one of us will ever know

(47:11):
if that's true that I saved yourlife or that you've been back in
prison, who knows, you learned alot of things, but what I knew
is that you are a good risk, andyou are worth it. And I have
never looked back at thatdecision with anything but a lot
of appreciation and affirmationswas a good move for both of us.

(47:37):
And from there, you know, youwere out for a week and went and
saw some family and you hung outwith my family. And then you got
on a plane, and you went toArizona, and your life is just I
mean, it's been like one stepafter the next each time, you

(47:57):
just keep making a more positivemove, and you have more and more
uncertainty that comes with eachpart. But it's it seems to me
like if it's like if we slow itdown, and we look back, it all
started back with you making adecision to sit up in your
chair, making a decision to putup your head, making a decision
to choose your type, making adecision to take the 12 weeks

(48:18):
and ask can I take it again, Imean, I really think there's
such a benefit to starting onthe inside, literally. And
starting on the inside ofit is because it's like you
honestly again, this is not justbecause it's you but you know
you are the first person to goinside. And truly care about the

(48:39):
individual that was sittingbehind those stripes or that
number. You went there and youtruly care about what you were
doing. You didn't have anyulterior motives YOU DIDN'T YOU
and none of that it and you careabout us as people and you talk

(49:01):
to us like we were people andyou were the first and structure
I have ever seen in my entirecriminal history and do that. A
lot of people go in there andteachers because they want a
paycheck or because it's a moneything. And it's their job to do
it. And it makes life miserablefor us that have to sit on the

(49:25):
other end in here. But when youwalked in and you would teach in
your class, you arecompassionate and genuine and
you are loving and we don't seethat family and we see that I
was drawn to that like you knowI was human.

(49:52):
Yeah. And I can really hear youcoming into contact with that
over and over again in thisconversation. Shouldn't you
touch that part of you thatremembers over and over again,
like, I'm human, I'm worth it.
And I've seen your Facebookposts, I hear you say this, I
heard you at the microphone andyou were just remember, and it
is. So healing every time we getto bring you back inside that we

(50:15):
haven't even gotten to see theimpact of that yet. Impact of
somebody who has also beenlabeled institutionalized or a
bad guy or con ex con, and thatyou get to come back and what is
the risk response going to bewhen you are the teachers? That
part? I can hardly wait.

(50:37):
It's a mixture. It's a mixtureof excitement and terror,
frankly.
When we went to went to SanMateo, I had a motional, I was
having emotional problems. Yeah,because I think I was too fresh.
And I think it was only out acouple months. And to go through

(50:59):
their little, you know, thingabout showing us with the jail
and how they are in knowing bothsides. Yeah, really got me
emotional, like my most of therun wild, I was really mad. But,
you know, after we talked to theguys, it was, it was great,

(51:21):
because like the look on theirfaces, and how interested they
were to hear things. And, youknow, I know I'm ready. And I
know I can go on there withoutbeing emotionally disrupted, as
far as anger and animosity andknowing that these guards are

(51:42):
full of the wrong wayadministration wants to
sugarcoat stuff. But you know,at the end of the day, I'm not
going there for the cards oradministration, I'm going to
geysers up on the walls, and,and they need that support, just
like I needed. And soI would say, I would just
interrupt for a second big andsay like, I It's not that I I

(52:02):
agree with you almost, it's notthat I think that you'd you'd
come back and you wouldn't everget triggered or feel angry
again, like come on, look atthat environment, and look how
long you've lived in that, ofcourse, you're going to feel
those things. But what I doreally trust and see in you is
such a groundedness and such acare about you and yourself and
a way to self regulate. And thatjust means that when you feel

(52:27):
these emotions coming up, youcan remember who you are enough
to take a breath and remember tocome back instead of being all
the way.
I mean, like, of course I'mgonna have to feel something.
But maybe I should have said adifferent that I'm not gonna let
it get the best I do. And I doknow how to get grounded and

(52:50):
stay with you. And I know thataccepting be okay with you. And,
you know, again, what helps meis that knowing that these guys
deserve support, in the secondchance or third chance, whatever
the case may be, it doesn'tmatter who you are, where you
can, which doesn't. Everybodydeserves a shot to change, and

(53:11):
everybody has that right? To beheard, or to have that support.
And I firmly believe that nowand i There's no other way that
I think about it. Again, itdoesn't matter what you've done
in your life, if you needsupport, you need someone to
talk to I'm here. And I'm notgoing to turn my back like I
used to or not pay attention towhere I think people need that

(53:36):
support. You know, no matterwhat time it is what pays may
be, no, it's I love beingsupportive with people, I love
hearing people's stories, I likebeing there as their, their
foundation to lean against it,it feels great to have somebody
combining me to hear me out. Andwe'd be able to guide them in

(53:57):
the right direction or pointthem in the right direction for
them.
So we have a few more minutes,and then we'll wrap up but we've
you know, we you have a rolenow, Vic, where you're, you're
pretty public, like your peopleknow who you are, right? And we
get to kind of go tell ourstories and, and all this really

(54:21):
cool stuff. And we talked aboutwe talked about our trip to
Denmark and Finland a coupleweeks ago. And I was wondering
what that was what was that liketraveling to the other side of
the world and talking about youknow, your your criminal history
and and basically having thisconversation and in a culture

(54:43):
where you've never been beforeyou know when we first got there
I guess you could say it wassurreal. I didn't like I knew I
was there but I didn't know if Iwas really there. And because
I'm The first I've never beenout of the country before, you
know, my first place wasDenmark. It was, like, I still

(55:04):
couldn't believe I was there,you know, the life that I lived
in have promises of going out ofthe country and getting a
passport was like, no, okay, youknow, that was just something
that I never put any thought to.
But I'm going to Denmark inmeeting the people that were

(55:26):
there, and just the people thatalready knew me without me
knowing them. It was like, youknow, to see the effect that I
had or that you had or thereMarcus had, I can't, there was
no greater feeling like thesepeople really cared to see

(55:47):
people cry at most, and becauseof our stories, and what we're
doing now. And it's all becauseof Enneagram. And it's, and it
was I still think about it, likeI'm not even back yet. You know,
the people that that were therewere just, I can't even explain

(56:07):
it. They were just sodownloaded. They were cool. They
were understanding, and theywere just as psyched about
Enneagram is anybody else that Iknew. And these are people that
live in society, this isn'tpeople that downtime, this is
people that that are out hereand civilization, just to see
that there is this communitythat cares deeply about us, for

(56:32):
us, and not even know us is it'sto me was a lot harder.
When when people you know,because a lot of people come
chat with us and you know, askus questions and all that good
stuff. What is? What is the mostwhat is the thing that people
want to know? The most whenpeople come? They give you a

(56:52):
hug, they tell you, thank youfor coming. And, you know,
that's, I wouldn't call itroutine, because it's always
really cool. But what's thething that you think people want
to know about the most?
Is it okay? If they give me? No.
They asked me that. Is it okay?
And the answer is yes, by theway, right?

(57:13):
Makes a great hunger. I have ahook yet.
They put their hand, they puttheir hand up to me. I don't
give handshakes, I give hooks.
Yeah, Vic doesn't give you ahug. He doesn't just like hug
your body, he hugs your wholelife.
And, you know, a lot of peoplewant to know, like, how do I

(57:36):
deal with I don't want to dealwith life today. You know, as I
like, before, I was veryuncomfortable with just living a
simple life and living life onlife's terms. And how I do live
is accepting that life is goingto be okay, no matter how little

(57:58):
or how much I have been that Idon't need instant gratification
in my life. You know, I surroundmyself with addicts, in a PC,
just every, it's a reminder forme every day of where I've come
from and what I'm doing today.
And being able to be in thisenvironment that I'm in today

(58:19):
and helping people is what keepsme going. And that's how I deal
with it. I'm very open withpeople. People want to know my
past things that I've done. AndI have no problem telling you. I
want you to know everythingabout me. I don't know, there'd
be no surprises. Why didn't knowyou did this? Well, here. Let me
go ahead and tell you what I'vedone. And let me tell you where

(58:41):
I've been employment day. Andyou know, sometimes they asked
me for my phone number becausethey want to hear my life story.
And I give them my number andI'm more than or give them a
card. And I'm more than happy totell anybody my love story.
Because I want people to be apart of my life as much as I
want to be part of theirs.

(59:03):
I wish we could talk forever. Ireally it's we've been talking
for an hour now. And I feel likewe're just just getting going.
So I'm really happy that shejoined us this week, Vic and I
know we're going to do it again.
And you know Susan, I feel likeI kind of hugged the whole
conversation. I feel like yeah,I was just asking questions all

(59:23):
the time. So sorry.
I love it. Very, very moving onthis and I'm so proud of you,
Vic and proud of you clay andproud of us and what we're
putting together it feels reallylike feels like sacred work.
Just a mess over here. I'm gladyou were talking. Just keep
getting all teary and reallylove you guys. And I love

(59:47):
getting to talk about what we'redoing and I hope that we just
get to do more and more nextpiece that big week. will tell
you more about that nextepisode.
For more information about EPP,please visit Enneagram prison

(01:00:12):
project.org We appreciate yourtime and attention today. Stay
tuned for future episodes of thepodcast which you can expect on
the first Tuesday of every monthas we continue to tell the story
of the Enneagram Prison Project