Episode 20: Guide Training Program

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Clay Tumey (00:00):
Hi my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison

(00:14):
Project podcast. EPS guidetraining program, usually
referred to as GTP is aninternational Enneagram
Association accredited trainingprogram, Say that five times is
for folks who have completed ourfirst two classes and are
aspiring to move forward ontheir path to becoming an EPP
Guide. In this episode, I speakwith a few of our pod guides

(00:35):
from GTPase, which we'verecently completed to talk a
little bit about what exactlygoes on in these guide training
programs. Thanks for being here.
Thanks for listening. And I hopeyou enjoy this episode of The
Enneagram Prison Projectpodcast.

(01:16):
Obviously I know who you are.
But for the listener who mightnot. Who are you? Who are you
in? Why are you here? The bigversion? No, I'm kidding. I say
more casually introduce yourdamn self.

Jason White (01:33):
Oh, so I am Jason white. I am so how many
different angles can I addressthat from? I got involved with
EPP I think back in 2016 whenRenee Lopez and ambassador I met
him and outside of EPP andinvited me to a meeting a

(01:57):
reconnecting meeting. And I wasimmediately impressed by the
guides by the material. And Iwas very skeptical. So it took.
Yeah, so I just kept comingback. And here I am. It's
difficult to say no at etps.
Because it is such a greatmission. And the people are so
great. So I have just continuedto get more and more involved.

(02:20):
And at first that was helpinggetting the LMS started and
getting everything moved onlinewhen the pandemic started is
really when I started gettingmore involved. And so I do
technical support and technicalstuff there. And then it was
becoming a guide. And so Irecently became a guide, I went

(02:45):
through GTP seven, and I've beendoing courses on the inside,
you'll also see me in theKinect, on Monday nights at 5pm
pt. Please come and check thatspace out if you've finished any
of our programs, and just givesyou a little taste of the EPP
magic every week, something thatyou can put on your calendar and

(03:07):
just show up when you'reavailable.

Unknown (03:11):
And I do

a number of other things like the organizational

Clay Tumey (03:16):
Juggernaut, I think it's probably the fair way to
describe you.

Unknown (03:22):
I'll take that. Yeah, I love it.
I was ready. If you were goingto disagree, I was ready to
argue about it. Because it'sjust you make a massive
difference. And in all sorts ofareas of the project. And we
love you it's it's good havingyou around. Did you for the
curious, by the way, when westarted doing our words of

(03:45):
appreciation segment on thepodcast, Jason was the
inspiration for that. Because Ifound myself personally talking
about JSON in a lot of differentareas like oh, yeah, Jason is
awesome. Oh, yeah, sure. Justask Jason know, this and the
other one day I thought like,holy shit, I wonder if he has
any idea of like, how highlypeople think of him. And so I

(04:08):
thought, you know, why don't wejust do this, like publicly and
get all the different words thatI've heard recently to describe
him and you know, throw that,throw that into one big
casserole, linguistic casserole,I've never said those two words
together, by the way. Like it.

Clay Tumey (04:26):
So you so in addition to all the other things
that you do, you're also theinspiration behind what I find
to be a very fun segment to dowith with the podcast and
appreciating folks. You know,talking about them behind their
back when they're not here tohear it. And yeah, it's not.

(04:46):
It's nice. It's great having youaround. I'm curious, a question
real quick. The Did you knowabout the Enneagram before you
met Renee and started coming tothe to the reconnecting Was it?
It was still on the outside atthat point, right?

Yeah, that was pre COVID. So we were meeting in
person. And no, I had no idea.
In fact, the biggest word on theflyer was pizza. So Enneagram
may have been mentioned, but Isaw pizza. And it was a chance
to hang out with Rene for alittle bit. So that's why I
really went

Unknown (05:24):
for the record, neither of the P's and EPP stand for
pizza. But, you know, it's thatnot everybody knows that. But
it's actually not the Enneagrampizza project. Although that
wouldn't be a bad. I have.
That's an option. Feel free tounmute and let people hear it
because you're laughing andnobody thinks I'm funny right
now.

Clay Tumey (05:46):
This is a no mute zone, sir. I'm kidding. mute,
mute as you wish. So typically,we do these in person, and we're
on Zoom today, which is so niceand so convenient. And, and I'm
glad that you elected to sitdown with me for a little bit
and chat about GTP. Inparticular. Oh, one more

(06:08):
question. So you didn't knowabout the Enneagram? And then
we'll get to GPA you didn't knowabout the Enneagram? What was
your process of finding yourtype? And find it? I don't know
that you've I don't spillanybody else has been. So
whatever information you bringto the table is what we talked
about. And I don't add anythingbeyond that just as a way of
respecting boundaries. But howdid you go about finding your

(06:30):
type? Once you started, kind ofsitting in here and about what
all this Enneagram stuff is?

Yeah, I think I, I opened up the wisdom of the
Enneagram. And I went throughthe type test in there. And I
think my mission was to find outwhat was wrong with it. And that
it was that it was totallygeneric, like, it was totally
generic. And every type couldapply to everybody. And then I
read through them, and I'm like,oh, a couple of these sounds

(07:00):
more like me than than theothers. And then I think I
eventually landed on Type One.
But Type One said that they wereangry, and I wasn't angry, I
never got angry. And so I stillwent with that. And they must
have just been wrong about theangry part. Everybody else in my

(07:23):
life could have told you that Igot angry on a regular basis,
except for me. And so took memaybe a year before that.

Unknown (07:36):
That really sank in.

And of course, that's transformational when you
see yourself in a new way. Andthe Enneagram has just kept
showing me myself in new ways.
This,

Clay Tumey (07:48):
gosh, we need one day. So we only have 30 minutes
today to chat. And one day, Iwant to sit down and talk with
you about anger. This came upwith my mom recently talking
about angry and talking aboutanger, and specifically the
question of how does anger serveyou? And and a lot of people
experienced that same reactionof I'm not, I'm not angry at

(08:10):
all. And if I was, how wouldthat serve me? It's not that
big. I'm not angry, like thatidea. I've heard that before,
from other folks from othertypes even. So. So we'll we're
going to skip a lot of historyand getting right up to G TPA.
And I, I, I love that you werein GTP, seven as a participant,

(08:31):
and now you're in you were in GTPA, as a pod guide. And, by the
way, GTP stands for guidetraining program. It's it's the
it's not the final step. Thatguides go through a perspective
guides go through. But it's oneof the final steps. And
actually, how about you? Youfeel like explaining to the

(08:56):
layman? What exactly is to thelayperson what exactly is GTP?
What is guide training program?

That's a great question. So the guide training
program is really where you makea number of transitions. So you
make a really, I think,fundamentally a transition from
going through the course andbeing a participant and
receiving

Unknown (09:21):
to giving

you make a transition into a mindset of
service, you start to take thecontent, and you you internalize
it a little bit more. But youryour whole focus shifts to how
can I give this to people? Howcan I bring this to people in an
impactful way, and it's not justthe content, it's the

(09:45):
connection, that the content isactually third on the list for
for things that we want to bringto people connection is right up
at the top. And so learning howhow do you form that connection?
How do you bring people togetherin a group loop and have the
learning there and have thecontent, they're all the

(10:06):
elements contribute, for sure.
And, and so it's a, it's apractice, it's a practice of
shifting that perspectiveshifting to being able to
present. There's a lot offeedback from from guides from
ambassadors. Clay did not say,but he was very involved. And he
was, he was there, all over theplace. And we're so blessed to
have the ambassadors. Becausethey're, they're bringing the

(10:30):
perspective from the classroom,that we can't, we can't get any
other way. And, and so we bringall those elements together. And
that's happening on with onehand. And with the other hand,
we're asking everybody to do theinner work at the same time. So
you come into GTP, and you yourit is, I mean, I'd show you the

(10:52):
syllabus, but we're on apodcast, it's a pretty, it's,
it's a very packed schedule, ifyou just look at the amount of
work that we asked you to do,then, then it's already feeling
like it's a packed schedule. Butas with life, we're also saying,
Hey, your type is going to showup, your red flag is going to

(11:14):
show up your, your core desireand basic fear are going to show
up. And as, as this kind ofthis, this learning all of this
new material, we we go throughand see how type shows up for
each person. And it does show upas you start presenting the

(11:36):
material, your center ofintelligence, your particular
lens on the world, and thestrengths of your type show up.
And that's an important part oflearning to become a guide.
Because

Unknown (11:52):
we cannot bring

our biases into the room with us. It's not

Unknown (11:59):
fair. What happens

Clay Tumey (12:01):
if you do? Or what happens if a person does if a
guide brings their biases intothe room? You know, it's I
agree, by the way, that thatthat's, I agree that we can't do
that, or we shouldn't do that.
And then the next naturalthought for me as well, what
happens if we do? So we're

forming a container of safety, we're forming an
environment in more than one waywhere people feel comfortable
showing up. And that's hard.
That's hard in a jail or aprison. If you've never been
there, I saw a lot of concreteand steel and very bad day for
most people, the worst day ofmost, the worst day of most

(12:42):
people's lives, really, I wouldsay, and a lot of places. And so
how do you go into thatenvironment and create a place
where people feel comfortableshowing up comfortable sharing
with other people that areresidents, they're comfortable
sharing in front of somesomebody with a clipboard who

(13:03):
just came in, and they don'treally know, like how, how you
create that container of safetyand people are really wise,
they're really they're able topick up on every cue every,
every subtle hint.

Unknown (13:22):
And so if something,

if I'm bringing something in, like, I guess it
is fine for me to bring in thatI'm having a bad day. As long as
during the checkout, I say, hey,today's hard. In fact, it is
better if I am able to do that.
And when I do that, because thatshows that

Unknown (13:45):
I'm in this with everybody. And

that's another part of being a guide and the whole
process. Like we're, we'recalled guides because we're
there walking alongsideeveryone, we're not

Unknown (13:55):
separate. And that helps create this, this
container.

Clay Tumey (14:02):
Again, as opposed to like a teacher where they stand
above and rain down informationupon those below them. Right.

Unknown (14:12):
That's my that's my word. By the way. I'm not
putting that on anybody else toagree or cosign that but there's
the difference. It's not justsemantics. It's it's, there's a
reason we say guidance that ateacher and it's a it's, you
know, my favorite way toillustrate this is it's not
standing in front of or behind,pushing or pulling it standing

(14:34):
next to and walking with. Isthat fair? Absolutely. So he
said earlier, connection is atthe top content is at the bottom
and a list of three things thatare that are very important.
What is that middle? What's thatmiddle thing?

You're asking me to give away all the secret sauce.

Clay Tumey (14:56):
Okay, I got to I got to rebuild. It was many things
we need the connection and

content are two are the big ones for sure. Yeah.
Well, there are severaldifferent lists depending on how
you shuffle them.

Unknown (15:16):
But that and all again,

all the elements are important. But connection is
really like nothing happens ifI'm, well, nothing happens if I
don't feel safe. And nothinghappens if I don't feel like I
can share with you or we can behere together.

Clay Tumey (15:38):
The way that I've that I've thrown it out there to
folks in everywhere, frankly,but it's but specifically in GTP
is who you are, is moreimportant than what you know.
And that is coming from someonewho I spend most of my time in
Type Five. And that's blasphemyfor the Type Five to say that

(15:59):
what you know is lesser than whoyou are, but it is who you are,
and that I'm speaking to theconnection that you can have
with other folks is who you arewho you show up as are you here
right now. If that doesn'texist, then what you know,
doesn't matter. I'm notlistening to anything that you
say. So. Yeah. So what was? Howwas it going through? Ask it

(16:24):
this way, what what were some ofthe notable differences, going
through the guide trainingprogram as a pod guide? Versus a
participant? Like were therethings that you remembered as,
as a participant being easier ormore difficult? And then being
on this side of it lookeddifferently? I don't know, is
this a perspective change a lot,when you're when you're going

(16:48):
through it? Looking at thehomework, instead of doing the
homework or giving feedback,instead of receiving feedback,
stuff like that, were there anyany big differences that stuck
out to you?

I would say it's completely different. We go
Yeah, it's completely different.
I think the experience as aparticipant is it's a little bit
content heavy in the beginning,but there's a lot of really
learning how to,

Unknown (17:22):
how to think and how to

how to think about the Enneagram in the way that
EPP does in a compassionate way,and go through for each type and
tell the story of each type in areally compassionate,

Unknown (17:42):
but yet real luck. And so that's one of the
assignments.

So it's, it's kind of, and it's also going through
our most difficult modules. Andwe asked you to teach the
modules in a very short periodof time on purpose, so that you,
you are encouraged to pick outwhat's most important about what
the most important sections ofeach module are. And I didn't

(18:16):
design any of that, or theprocess that that was, that was
people way before me and theyare very wise. So there's that
there's a whole bunch of reallyinteresting things about the
process

Unknown (18:28):
and and being a participant being a pod guide is

it's about having a welcoming and inviting a small
group of four to six into thisprocess into what it is to be a
guide into. And to EPP in a way,like meant all of our public

(19:01):
programs are an all of ourprograms are an invitation to
our community. And so GTP is aninvitation into our guide
community

Unknown (19:11):
and all the support there and yeah, the way that

we do things is guides.

Unknown (19:25):
There's a lot of

so there's a lot of answering questions. There's a
lot of

Unknown (19:37):
inspiring

relating stories about what it's like on the
inside relating stories about

Unknown (19:44):
EPP but it's, it's I mentioned that

you're doing the work the inner, the inner work
as you're going through GTP sothere are tears. There's
laughter people face the corechallenges of their type, not as
an abstract idea, but as

Unknown (20:08):
I'm terrified,

like I am in tears, I'm shaking, I'm terrified. And
I'm going to sit with that.

Unknown (20:16):
With my feet in the fire. And as a pawn guide, you
sit with people. And

I bring in the Enneagram, I bring in type
observations. And

Unknown (20:33):
but all the work has to be done by each person by each,
each guide, as they go through.
Last but not least, and again,we have wiggle room, so feel
free to wiggle all you like justa wide open question of anything
you'd like to add? Any anyquestions you want to answer
that I didn't ask about GTPabout EPP about being a guide

(20:55):
about

Clay Tumey (20:57):
literally anything, the floor is yours. I want to
give you the last the last wordshere. Yeah,

Unknown (21:03):
thank you. Um,

I think I mentioned just briefly that the GTP is
really the beginning of the ofthe guide process, when you
finish GTP you are not a guide.
You are you have, you'vepracticed and you have some of
the material that that we use onthe inside, that you're familiar
with. But what makes a guide issomeone who can go into jail or

(21:28):
a prison and sit with men andwomen there through

Unknown (21:38):
really difficult conversations.

And to create an environment where those
conversations can happen in anenvironment where we all feel
safe, and welcome to show upjust as we are.

Unknown (21:53):
And I think that it is that process of sitting, sitting
with people and showing themtheir ascent, inviting everyone
to see their essential goodness.
And inviting over and overeveryone to engage with the best

(22:15):
and the challenging parts of whothey are. That's what makes a
guide. And that's at leastanother

that's a, that's another six months to a year
process of going through andbeing with an experienced guide
and

Unknown (22:42):
doing the work. And so, I'm just I'm really

impressed by everyone who went through GTP.
Even Even people who wentthrough GTP and decided, you
know, this is not for me.
Because that takes a lot ofguts, that takes a lot of self
awareness to, to go throughwhere to start. And and to say,
even if even if you have to saynot now, I know that I can't

(23:13):
give myself to this right now,the way that this process calls
for. So I want to appreciateeveryone.

Unknown (23:25):
Everyone who

made those difficult decisions, everyone
who completed GTP. And I'm justreally looking forward to seeing
how, like there were 45 or somaybe a few less than that,
let's say 40 that came throughthis most recent round. And I'm
just looking forward to seeingthe community grow. And we're

(23:52):
really moving back to and incustody first emphasis and so I
expect that everyone will begoing into a facility one way or
another shortly over the nextsix months. And that's going to
be a lot of energy and a lot of

Unknown (24:12):
a lot of work and a lot of growth.
Okay, so I am Asha Bolton. Ilive in Bowling Green Kentucky.
Type Four. Setting me Enneagramsince 92. So that's a that's

(24:37):
been a minute. I came to knowEPP in 2015 That's when I met
Susan Olesek She came to speakat the narrative Enneagram where
I was taking a workshop and shewas to set two sentences into
her presentation and I was drawnin. Do you remember what those

(24:59):
two Two sentences were, well,one of them involved the phrase
prisons of our own making. Andwhat was really weird is that I
was like, I literally had thatthought, like a split second
before she said it. You know,because she she was, it was
probably more than a couple ofsentences that actually, but
right before she said thatfamous phrase, I said it. And

(25:24):
then when she said, I was like,Oh, my God, she's reading my
mind, or am I reading her mind?
Or, but I knew we were on thesame page.
So in 2015, had at that point,had you had any kind of
experience with the prison worldor any, you know, any, any
particular interest? I mean, Iknow you're at a thing for the

(25:47):
Enneagram. So clearly, youalready were a bit into your
Enneagram studies. But had youever thought about what this
what this tool could be usedfor? Behind behind the bars as
we sometimes they are in theincarcerated world?
Yeah, I play I have to say no,that I had not. It never had

(26:07):
crossed my mind to be workingwith incarcerated people. I've
never had anything, you know, anaversion to it. In fact, what I
liken it to is that I had spentover 30 years working with
nursing home patients. Now Icame at it from the financial

(26:28):
side. And my job was to try tohelp get the means from the
government, that they needed tohave a quality life. So I was
trying to give a voice to adisenfranchised population. They
just happened to be in thenursing home. And as soon as I
heard about EPP, I realized thatit was sort of the same thing,
that it was another type ofdisenfranchisement another type

(26:51):
of people having somewhat lost avoice. And could I do anything
to help with that? You know, itwas a very natural transition
for me from nursing home tojail. Yeah,
that's not I don't I don't thinkI knew that. And we've been
friends for a while. I know alot about you. I don't think I
knew that. So what do you whatdo you? What is it about the
incarcerated? I mean, why why?
I'm going to ask you a verybroad question that I like to

(27:15):
hit people with sometimes. Butwhy? Why? Why do we care about
those who are who are locked up?
If they can't, if they can'teven follow the rules, and have
lost their freedom? Why do wegive
a shit? Oh, wow. That is a broadquestion. And

(27:39):
the first thing I just noticedis that my heart is alive, when
you're asking the question,because I do care for that
population a lot. And I thinkthat maybe they talked about,
you know, breaking the rules.
I'm not so sure that they didbreak all the rules that we put

(27:59):
them put on them or that theyknew they were breaking them or
that they knew how to dosomething different. Or knew
there was a rule. You know,there's just so many questions
that come up for me like as toaround that, that they broke the
rules, and now they're, they'rebeing punished. I don't I don't
see that at all. And the moreI've gotten then to knowing

(28:21):
incarcerate people through theseEPP classes, the more I see the
people, I don't even know how toextract them from the rest of
the world. We're just people.
And yet they're a group ofpeople that I think needs some

(28:45):
need some help. One of myfavorite things is to go in and
ask what if there's nothingwrong with you? I just love the
reaction. And the drop jawsometimes that that elicits
because that's what I reallywant to do is to, to come in and
say I think I think it's timefor us to talk about what's
right about you. Because wespent our whole lifetimes all of

(29:07):
us me included. Hearing what'sbad. So let's talk about what's
good. It just gives me joy tobring that that possibility to
people. I love that.
I'm aware of that. It's anabrasive question the way that I
asked that. And I wouldn't putthat on everybody. I like
hearing you talk through thatand and share your thoughts on

(29:29):
that. You said a minute ago. Youtalking about going on inside?
Am I understanding correctlythat you you have been on the
inside?
Yes, I have made some tripsactually in in person. I think
we were in jails in 2015 and 16.
But they were verysporadic and occasional.

(29:51):
If I happen to be out inCalifornia, I got to go with
Susan into play. She was goingout and there was a time or two
that I actually presented somematerial is very much on the
spot. And it wasn't really verygood now that I look back at it.
So that that was the only timethat I'd ever been on the

(30:13):
inside. And then of course,because I live, as I said, in
Kentucky, we don't have aprogram here. The program that I
was aware of were out inCalifornia and just wasn't
feasible for me to be able to dothat. And then of course, COVID
happened. And everything went onthe inside. I was able to, to

(30:37):
begin guiding, virtually. AndI've done that a few times.

Clay Tumey (30:42):
When did you become a guide for for or with EPP?

Unknown (30:46):
That's an interesting question, because I haven't
stopped guiding since I became aguide, and I lose track of when
that was. I think that it was in2020. Okay. So I was I was in
the last GTP class, DTP seven.
Okay. Which I do believe was in2020.

(31:12):
Don't get me line, I don't havemy calendar.
And it's, you know, if somebodywants to fact check them that's
on them. I, I also think it wasthem. But I didn't, I didn't I
wasn't as involved with GTP.
Seven as I was with ttba. So I Adon't remember the exact date,
but also don't have a lot ofcontext for some of the

(31:33):
differences.

Clay Tumey (31:36):
What what we did with seven that we changed with
a or if that even happened? Orwas it just a cookie cutter
thing? You were a big part ofGTP as a pod guide.

Unknown (31:50):
Write? I did sort of as a pod guide for GTP
eight. And so what are you whatare, from your experience? What
were some of the things that yousaw? I don't know, I guess just
comparing the two GTP, seven andDTPA. What it's like to go
through as a participant versusa pod guide, you know, two years
ago versus 2022. Any, anynotable differences, that that

(32:12):
you that you that come to mindwhen you think about those two
classes? Yeah. SoI think when you go through it,
this was my experience goingthrough GTP and I was in
seventh.
Everything's new,you don't, you don't have a clue
what's going to happen when youstart practice teaching. You're

(32:33):
watching the clock, you'retrying to get all the points.
And you're or I keep saying youbut it was me. I

Clay Tumey (32:44):
just did a thing I'm interrupting, because you just
did a thing that we talkedabout. And what what was that
where you you flipped it fromyou to I

Unknown (32:51):
that's part of what we teach. Right? I
I became emotionally responsiblefor what I'm saying. Yeah.

Clay Tumey (32:59):
I hope I didn't derail you that too much there.
I love I love watching thatinaction.

Unknown (33:04):
It didn't at all. And it actually kind of as a side
point, the all the experience Ihad teaching for 35 years,
served me very little. When Igot into EPP guiding because you
was the term that we that Isaid, you know, so learning to
say I statements, it's reallyimportant. So I didn't know what

(33:28):
to expect. When I went into eachsession. I didn't know what to
expect. When I went into thepracticum. I had a syllabus, I
had the learning managementsystem LMS.
AndI particularly remember teaching
the defense system. And feelinglike I had to just talk as fast
as I could, and then do a deepinhale. And then let it go again

(33:51):
and just talk as fast as Icould, because how am I going to
get all this in the amount oftime that they were giving me
and they were watching me. Italso it was really kind of
nerve. I don't want to say itwas nerve wracking, it was just
challenging. So I take that andthen I go into the
apprenticeship, which for me wasin in custody, virtual and

(34:14):
custody. And then I've guidedsome since then in custody,
virtually. And I realized veryquickly that all the practice
teaching that I did still didn'tprepare me for the unknown of
going in to a classroom. Iremember being like in front of
my zoom window waiting for thecameras to run as I call it for

(34:38):
the class to show up. Andknowing breath by breath that I
did not know what was gonna getready to happen. And then when
the class showed up, and I had amentor guide within about a
minute, I was like, Oh yeah, I'mhome. This feels so Good, and
then learning to manage thatthat class might arrive late, I

(35:03):
might lose 10 minutes right offthe bat, it may take longer to
center, the class we do as acentering and a check in. And it
may actually what I meant to sayit may take longer to do the
check in. And I allow for thatwhen I can, because this is
their chance to talk. And I wantthem to have that chance to talk

(35:25):
and to be heard, and do someserve and return with them. And
sometimes I can and sometimes Ican't do as much as I want. And
then to know that they might getcalled out for duties that they
just found out that they have.
So all these variables affect mysession plan, to the point that

(35:48):
the session plan is nothing morethan version a, you know, we're
gonna see how this goes. Andthen I have to learn how to skip
certain things or put things inthe following week, or let the
students when they're speakingto me, they're actually teaching
the material a lot of times andjust turn around pointing it

(36:09):
out. So all this sort of what Icall real life guiding versus
practice teaching, I had thatexperience to go into GTP E as a
pod guide with. And so as Iwatched people in GTP, eight
practice teach that one time, Imean, every time literally that

(36:30):
I saw someone practice teach, Iwas right there with them
remembering how it is, I think Igotta get all of them. And it's
got to be done a certain way,and I'm gonna get a pass fail.
And in that training, your mindcan not always be on your
student, it's on getting to beworth your student later. That's
a real different mindset. Andthen also to sort of look at the

(36:54):
people that are going throughand watching them and thinking,
you know, this, thispresentation needs some work,
that they're gonna be reallygood. They get on the inside,
because they are so present andso engaging. That's a
pawn guide, you have a big rolein their development, because I

(37:14):
was around a lot for thepracticums for the, for the
reduce for the all that stuff,shared my feedback, and I was
gone. And you had you had a podyou had you had a smaller group
of people that you had severalconversations with, sometimes in
a group setting, sometimes oneon one, you know, via, you know,

(37:36):
technology is really making itto where we can do things that
we couldn't do in the past, butbeing able to give direct
feedback. And also, it's notalways a pleasant thing to say
sometimes it's like, you know,I'll paraphrase but like, Hey,
you really suck at this, thisthing that you just did, like
how how, talk through some ofthe experience of that, where

(37:59):
you where you see somebody andyou know that they're good, you
know that they have what ittakes, and they're just on,
they're just hung up on a thing,or whatever. And you don't have
to mention names or anythinglike that. But But I'm curious
from your, from yourperspective, what that's like,
how do you have thoseconversations where people
really do miss the mark. Andit's, and they did it in a safe

(38:19):
place. But it's a thing thatneeds to be addressed before
they go inside? What is that,like from your from your
perspective? Well, you know,I think my nature is to want to
build people up. And so I haveto keep sight of the goal here,
which is the incarceratedstudents, what's going to be

(38:42):
good for them. And then get pastwhat my nature says I don't need
to make everybody feel good. Ineed to make sure that the that
for my part in this that I amwitnessing, and can recommend
people to as as ready, I wouldsay would be the word to go and

(39:04):
be with the incarceratedstudent. And that is a long
process over the whole, likeeight or eight weeks plus, it's
actually gone into about nine to10 weeks. And so just to give
you some perspective, we spentabout 48 hours in session in
that eight week. So that's justthe sessions where the whole

(39:25):
cohort is there. I spent anotherclose to 50 hours with my six
people. beyond that. We met oncea week for an hour and a half in
a pod meeting. I had lots ofinteraction with him one to one.
I met with him twice for an houron a one to one. So there's a

(39:49):
whole lot of this that buildsand you get to know the sense of
someone at least around ourcommon goal, you know, I mean,
at the very end of my, my verylast pod meeting, I said, Hey,
why don't we bring something inthat says little about who we
are outside of EPP. Like, maybebring, you know, something that

(40:11):
you're interested in? And it waslike, Oh, we have life outside?
Yeah, we actually do.
So I believethat kindness, and I believe
that the back kind feedbackincludes the hard message as
well as the good stuff. So whenI give the hard feedback, I sort

(40:35):
of look at why am I doing this?
And how, what, what do I thinkthis will benefit on for the
person on the inside? You know,I'm constantly thinking about
that. There's nobody I haven'tmet.

(40:56):
That,oh, that's not good. That's not
going to work at all. There arepeople who will strike that,
when you get a sense of peoplewho really see the cause that
EPP represents,you want to support them.

(41:17):
And I say that with a charge ofemotion. I really feel something
jumping in my heart center whenI say that you want to support
the people who really get it,the ones and maybe they do and
maybe they don't, but you thinkthey do at this point? You know,
you just want to support them.

(41:40):
You know? Yeah,

Clay Tumey (41:42):
I agree, by the way.
So my perspective, and I'm not aguide. And I and I don't know
how often I say that, because inthese conversations, I feel like
I'm part of the team. And Itotally am. But I'm not a guide,
I don't have a pot, I don't havethe all the one on one
conversations are not on my todo list, I have my role, and I
enjoy it. And I thoseconversations for me, like I

(42:07):
have to very often reiterate,this is coming from a place of
love and support. Like I say itjust just as much for the person
hearing it as I do. As theperson saying it for me, like
because I got to remember likethis is this is not American
Idol. Like I'm not, I'm nottrying to tell somebody how to

(42:29):
succeed, I'm just, they want todo something, I'm and I'm here
to support that. That's what Isee with the pod guides, too.
It's, it's not so much, hey, Iknow the answer. I'm correcting
a thing that you're doing wrong.
It's more like, yeah, you'retrying something and I want to
support you in doing it.

Unknown (42:53):
More to what,

Clay Tumey (42:55):
to a greater extent to a greater degree so that you
can serve, you know, the

Unknown (43:02):
end of the line being or what would they call us in
business, the end was to cut theperson at the end of the year,
the end user end user, there wego. It's why it's why don't work
for big corporation. And in thiscase, the end user being you
know, some some person who isincarcerated, you know, and we
do have public programs like I'mnot saying you have to be locked

(43:22):
up to, to participate. But

Clay Tumey (43:25):
you know, prison is our middle name.

Unknown (43:26):
So, right. And, you know, we are focusing and
refocusing and constantlyfocusing on our incarcerated
participants, that is the goalof EPP. And so even the public
programs need to support that.
Why are we doing this? We'redoing it for the benefit of
people who are on the inside.

(43:50):
Yeah,I love that. And then it is a
push. And they might alreadyhear about this by the time the
podcast is uploaded, there isthere's a very intentional push
recently, to get back to thatbasic idea of you know, prison
is our middle name. We mighteven mess around and get a t
shirt with that on it. Whoknows, right? I've been asking
for it for a while, I don'tknow, a decade, maybe.

(44:15):
I support the notion that prisonis our middle name and that we
are here for the incarcerated.
That's why I'm here. And, youknow, there is this whole aspect
of finding community. Anddefinitely, EPP is a very
welcoming community and a verysafe place for me to be at I

(44:37):
love that part of it too.
If it weren't for theincarcerated, I don't know that
I'd be around. That's what Iwant to do. And that's what EPP
wants to do. So we match it Ithink the one of the I don't
know it may be really hard toovercome as a society is how we
look at formerly incarceratedpeople. I just give you an

(45:00):
example from one of myincarcerated students or
actually prefer to use the wordparticipant because I'm in this
with my bear in it with me. Helooked at me, I don't remember
the context. But he said, Youknow, I've met more. I've met
more good people in here than Iknew out

(45:24):
there. And I stopped anddid a little quick 12345 on my
hands of people I know, closely.
And I said, I agree with you, Iwould say the same thing. You
know that I have met some reallygreat people here. And great
people are great people thatthere's no distinction. And I

(45:47):
know that it's kind ofidealistic to to want that in
our society. But I really dowant that I really want people
to be treated for who they areright now. And you talked about
breaking rules in your talkingto Type Four. I love breaking
rules. I think Rules are made tobe broken. Well, I have that

(46:10):
kind of streak about me too. AndI'm no different than anyone, I
just didn't get caught breakingall the rules that could have
gotten me incarcerated.
I do have one more questions.
Very broad, open ended question.
Just ask you, if you have anyfinal thoughts, anything,
anything that we didn't addressthat you want to when I look and
I see somebody devotingthemselves to something like

(46:34):
this, and I know you care aboutus. So it's not like you're just
serving my needs I we give ashit about the same things. And
it's, it's, it's satisfying tolook at my screen and see a
friend who, who comes from avery likely a very different
background, and we and we'restanding shoulder to shoulder
doing something that we lovetogether. And so thank you. I

(46:54):
appreciate that. I appreciateyou being here. And any, any
closing thoughts, any questionsthat you want to answer that I
didn't ask anything, there's notime limit, the floor is yours.
I'm done talking. And I'll justleave it to you.
Well, Clay thanks, and, andthank you for inviting me into
this space. It is really greatto be here with you.

(47:19):
I want to sayabout JTPA that I did not guide
incarceratedclasses during the time I did
GTP eight. But I had thisthought if I'm teaching six
people to be guides, what aninvestment that is, you know

(47:40):
what exponential growth that canprovide. And you know who that
growth is for it's for theincarcerated people. So I do
want to say that and then in amore broad sense. The way that I

(48:00):
feel about my work and EPP isthat it's a calling. I don't
like that word a whole lot. Itsometimes triggers religious
overtones or undertones that I'mnot going after, but it is
something that calls to me.
And I get to do it.

(48:22):
I'm invited to it. I'm permittedthe tour I vote. I'm allowed to
be in these places. It's it'sutterly
soul nourishing for me to bedoing this work.
That also keeps me on my toeswith my own inner work. I can't

(48:43):
go and represent anybody, butespecially somebody like EPP
without being on my toes. Imean, that's just part of it.
And then that's also anefficiency. I get where I'm
doing this work or people, butI'm getting this. I'm doing this
work for my own benefit too,because I have to face me. You

(49:05):
know, it doesn't matter whatI've done all day long at the
end of the day, I have to faceme, and how did I do today? And
doing this work with EPP callsme to be a better person

Clay Tumey (49:29):
Hey, it's Clay and I want to pause here real quick to
share with you a few words ofappreciation for Jan Schecter.
Jan is an EPP guide and she isalso of our I don't know a few
bazillion other things inside ofEPP. She helps make EPP what it
is. She was very instrumental inthe most recent offering of the

(49:51):
guide training program aka GTPeight and I'm while I was
talking to each of the guidesthat I chatted with for For this
episode, there was a point whereI stopped and said, Hey, what do
you think about Jen Schecter?
And so here are the answers tothat question.

I'm sure that I can't say enough about Jen
shaker, she really I don't knowwhat this GTP would have been
like without Jan, I don't knowwhat the guide development
process would be like withoutJen, she's really holding guide
development and all thedifferent pieces of that I think
there's, there's over a dozendifferent groups that meet are

(50:33):
related to guide development TTPis just part of that GTP is
really the beginning of thejourney. And she created so many
documents, she kept track of somany things and just made it
everyone feel so supported.
Everyone feel included in theprocess. And

Unknown (50:54):
I offered structure

and reassurance like that, as a, as a guide, or
a pod guide it, there's alreadya lot of moving pieces, and I
couldn't imagine keeping track

Unknown (51:09):
of everything. And so I'm,

I'm so thankful that Jen was there and that she
had the time and energy she putin so much time and I'm sure I
only saw a small part of it. Butshe it seemed like she was
always there always online.

Unknown (51:29):
Definitely. And I will say that the work I've done
before as a guide, I sort ofinteracted with my co guide. And
that was the end of it really.
And then GTP a there's aninfrastructure that's much
bigger than just to go to twoguides getting together. And Jan
sort of represents to me theumbrella over the whole

(51:53):
structure, the wholeinfrastructure. She was
sometimes I called her theprincipal of the school because
she kept things going and shemade decisions and I have to say
that I didn't realize going inthat that position had been
created or was in place and soit took me a little bit to kind
of catch on to who's Jan now youknow, because I really didn't

(52:16):
even know her that well. So whatI will say in appreciation and I
everything I would say aboutJehanne today is an appreciation
she holds a hell of a lotI mean all that she does and I
had a conversation with hertoward the end and just got some

(52:36):
information about how much shereally holds that I knew from
what she was sending us to youknow help us do tracking of the
back and that sort of thing thatshe was really on it dedicated
loyalwanting to be good at it like in

(52:58):
a in a real for going to one wayyou know just really wanted to
bring that Type One purity andgoodness to the process. I think
she word would be I don't knowthis is not one word but she put
up with a lot too. And as onehas to do in that position.

(53:22):
Yeah, I kind of wish I'd known Iwish I like if I had the
opportunity GTP nine I wouldjump at it and jam were there I
would understand from day onehow to benefit more from
her support.
Jam check the I don't know Idon't know how we would have
done this without her and Ican't imagine that GTP ever

(53:45):
happening without her now wewere so spoiled and so lucky to
get her.
Jan is just one of the mostcompetent selfless I can do this
kind of people I've ever met sheis just there's just nothing
that she that flaps her there'snothing that she can't do. And

(54:07):
she has this really beautifulability to just be the simplest
way to get to the next space.
Like I'll instead of taking astraight line approach like she
does, I can like Wiggle Wigglego around all over the place.
And talk about it and she's likeno got it. And she already she's
already there and I'm stilltalking about how I'm gonna get
there. And I could call her onthe phone and she'd pick up I

(54:30):
could whack her and she wouldtalk me right back it she did
with though available. And soholding all of us because there
was so much more that got putinto this GTP than any other
other GPB before it. And there'sa lot to hold on our on our
side. So for us and for the podguys to be held the way we are

(54:53):
held was just ordinary. And Iknow the leaders feel that way
the cohort leaders feel that wayas well. But But I just, I am
amazed by her capacity to holdwhat she held. content wise,
emotionally. Logistically, Ijust, it's really, really mind
blowing. really mind blowing.

(55:17):
I would say that for me, Jan isthe words that come up to me is
that she's magical. She'scelestial. She's everywhere. And
there's a way that she's able tohold all of the logistics the
backbone, the skeletoncontainer, answer with grace.

(55:39):
Respond, anticipate that, Iwould say that it was I felt
that Jan was like an anarchitect and also handled
anything that wasn't yetoperating the way that it was
originally designed. She couldflex it, she could adjust it,
she could adapt it. And she wasthere for all of us. And for

(56:03):
each of us. So yeah, so I'mgonna love on her in that way.
And I got to hang out with JanEsslingen. So I got to hug her
personally, bodily. AndI'd say, Yeah, Grace, dignity.
And,yeah, amazing. And I can talk

(56:24):
about all the amazing logistics,but it's not she did those
flawlessly, but it'show she was there for all of us.

Deb Horton (56:36):
And it's hard to limit myself to a few words
here. And I was part of GTP,seven, when Jan wasn't the
coordinator of it. And now beingpart of this GTP when she is
there, Jan has been the rock shehas been like the one person I
can always go to. And there's somany details in this process,

(56:56):
and so much to hold. And she isalways with kindness. I mean,
true kindness, there to help andno judgment for what the fuck
you should have known that, youknow, I already said that, you
know, no, no, no, no, Jan isjust, she, she is amazing. To
me. I don't know how her brainworks. I don't know how anyone

(57:17):
can function and hold everythingthat she does and organize a
process as big as this and ascomplicated as this in a way
that has brought so muchsupport, you know, for me as a
Type Six, support that's big.
And I felt totally supported byher and her amazing work. And

(57:37):
her and just her amazingkindness and the gift of her. I
was also you know, as a and herteam, you know, cohort six. And
so just her insights into, youknow, when we were doing
listening to people together andher feedback and her
suggestions. I think that Jan isa super brilliant, amazing,

(58:02):
loving person. And this, thisprocess of GTP eight was held
together in a way that I justcan't even imagine it happening
without her.

Clay Tumey (58:18):
And as a bonus, I will also include EPP guide Dana
Vitorelo, who is not on thisepisode, but I was talking to
her on Zoom. While I was in themiddle of editing this episode
and I said, Hey, you want toinclude a few words of
appreciation for Jan Chegada.
And here's what she said.

Dana Vitorelo (58:35):
I love Jan, I love working with Jan, I love
talking with Jan, I loveshooting the shit with Jan she's
one of my absolute favoritepeople. And in just I work with
her and lots of spaces in EPPbut for GTP eight we couldn't
have run it without her. Wecouldn't she held all the
logistics She held the biggerpicture she held the punch list.

(58:57):
She was updating session plansin the middle. I mean she was
showing up in every cohort andsupporting and just literally
jumping and pitching in wherevershe could. And it went so smooth
because we had Jan and herbeautiful, meticulous organized
mind. She's so competent and sological and balances it out with

(59:20):
so

Unknown (59:20):
much heart. So much heart and you know,

Dana Vitorelo (59:24):
beautifully when appropriate will bring these
big, lovely feelings around andis so generous with her her love
and her appreciation of everyoneelse and I love working with
Jan,

Unknown (59:36):
I really do.

Clay Tumey (59:38):
So before we get back to the episode, I kind of
want to just invite y'allanybody listen to this, if you
can hear my voice, I'm talkingto you. If you are connected
with us on Slack, feel free togo over to the podcast chat
Slack channel and drop a fewwords of appreciation of your
own for Dan Schecter. And ifyou're not in our Slack channel,
then email send that sent youknow I'll tell you what I'll

(01:00:00):
make you do you send an email toinfo at Enneagram prison
project.org. And I promise yousomebody will see it. And if
it's not for them, if it's forJan or anybody else, then they
will forward that to theappropriate person. All right,
there you go. And I think now wewill return to our regularly
scheduled programming. We'retalking to some of the guides

(01:00:23):
from the most recent guidetraining program.
Really easy starting places,just to tell the listener who
you are anything that you wantto include, and name type if you

(01:00:46):
want, or nothing at all, it'sfine. So who are you and what do
you do with EPP? Perfect,

Unknown (01:00:54):
I am Dana, and Dana Deaton and I am a guide within
EPP.
I'm a Type Two. Andas a normal check in I wish I
use she her pronouns. But youknow, we, I also do live
coaching. I have a live coachingbusiness, private practice. And

(01:01:14):
so I do that on the side. Andthat has become less and less of
what I do, because I'm doingmore and more of EPP.

Clay Tumey (01:01:24):
That's cool. So yeah, did you do Enneagram work
in your private practice priorto ebp? Or did you did you have?
Did you meet all them to getlike, what was the connection
point for you with the Enneagramand then EPP,

Unknown (01:01:37):
the Enneagram came to me late. So I started using the
Enneagram as a part of mycoaching. So they introduced it,
they introduced it to a at NewVentures last which is where I
was certified, and gotintroduced to it there and they
use it as just a one of the manytools that they offer. Or they
suggest and it so it sointrigued me and I wanted to

(01:02:00):
know more and I kept thinkingkind of I could learn more about
this thing called the Enneagramit would be my secret sauce as a
part of my coaching business.
And then COVID hidden thatbrought me into EPP and started
the sequence of classes that ledme to where I am now. Never did
I think I would go with thisdeepen.

Yeah, I can relate, by the way been there never
thought I'd go this deep. Idon't I have a track record of
do I do things for like two orthree years, and then I bounced
to something else. So havingbeen around EPP for longer than
three years, for me is is it'smagical. And it's fun that I
hear people say that frequently.
Like I didn't know what I wasgetting into. I'm glad I got

(01:02:44):
into it. Or didn't think I'd behere that long or whatever. So
well. My

Unknown (01:02:50):
My Funny story was that I like I had met, I've met Susan
through ventures last and shewas the only person I had met.
And then I started you know,just getting more involved in
EPP and started. I decided totake the 91k class and it was
fabulous. And it was a pilot atthe time. And

what year was that?
When you took the MP when k

Unknown (01:03:09):
2019? That

was I was super early in the nine p 1k. Game?

Unknown (01:03:16):
Yeah, actually, it was 2020 it was right during it was
right when COVID happened. Itwas 2020 with a pilot program
that isn't a voice or a part ofthe panel. It was it was like
homegrown you know, reallyincredible, and I just loved it.
And you there's a chart withinEPP that shows this track that

(01:03:36):
you can be on if you would takethat and that you take the path
freedom and then you could and Ilooked at that picture and I
went, Ah, that's not happeningto me. That's, that's too much
that's too deep. And Susancalled me and said, We're doing
path to freedom applicationsright now. Why are you taking
it? And I said, What? Should Itake it? I'm not telling you to

(01:03:57):
take it like, Well, should Itake it? I'm not telling you to
take it but but if you get yourapplication in by the end of the
day. I'm like, Okay, so a couplehours later, I got myself into a
path to freedom and, and abouthalfway through path of freedom.
And it dawned on me like Oh god,I'm gonna do this thing. I'm

(01:04:18):
gonna do the thing calledguiding him and I was sucked in.

What is that thing that what is that? I'm gonna do
this what that draw. I know whatit's like to talk to Susan and
she's very persuasive in thenicest ways and it's not
aggressive at all, but it's alsohard to turn away from frankly.
And then And then beyond that,this this I don't know it's a
it's a, an attraction to orbeing called to or whatever

(01:04:46):
phrase you want to say thereabout, you know what? Sure the
urge to guide or the or thedesire to just do this thing.
What is that?

Unknown (01:04:56):
I mean, that's probably what that's to do with
incredible, credible question ofmy life. Like, why am I here?
What am I doing? It is thisthing like you said, I couldn't
turn away from it is this sensethat I'm doing something bigger
than me, but that I actually canhave a piece of it? I mean, I
think that I always strugglewith how do I, how do I make an

(01:05:18):
impact on the world? I'm justone person, how do I do that.
And there was something thattold me because it was before I
got it, of course, there wassomething that told me that this
could be that thing, where youdo have an impact on a person or
people, and you can start tochange the world.
That sounds socool, kind of It sounds so
unrealistic. It sounds though,too big. But it really is this

(01:05:41):
sense of, I'm doing somethingfor me, while I'm doing
something for you, while you'redoing something, for me, it's
reciprocity in the relationship,that I could just start to feel
that was the beautiful.
Yeah,

and it's funny when you say that about just being
one person. And, and I go backto when I was locked up. And I
think Susan was just one person,you know, and she was, she was
brought in, by a founder of adifferent program that I was in,
who was also just one person.
And I think it's, it serves as anice reminder here that, you
know, never, don't neverunderestimate the power of one
person.

Unknown (01:06:20):
And I think that, never underestimate the power. And
then when I started to, youknow, it happened in coaching,
when I would notice my impact ofor our impact of the
relationship and have theconversation that then impacted
her or his relationship with hisfamily and his colleagues. And
then it's just that kind ofdomino effect that started to

(01:06:40):
happen. And they would, I wouldget reports back from people
even long after I coach themabout the impact on their life,
and all the people around them.
And it's it, that ripple isreal.
Yeah, love that.

So you go, go through nine p 1k. Go through
path to freedom. And then youmentioned the image that you saw
with the track. So in that Iknow the answer this. So I'll
ask questions that are prettyobvious answers, but I'm asking
them for folks who might notknow so. Okay, Vin past freedom.
And then what is the next stepfor you after that

Unknown (01:07:15):
AI Training Program Guide, GTP, seven last summer.
And it was,you know, a much different kind
of application, it felt a lotbigger than path of freedom and
IP 1k. And there was a lot ofdiscussion from the, you know,
the leads about the faculty andthe leaves about this is going

(01:07:37):
to be big, this is going to bebig, this is going to be a lot
you got to make space in yourlife. And I'm like, oh, yeah,
okay, I got it. You know, I've

done big stuff before, I guess.

Unknown (01:07:49):
You know, I went to college, I'm smart. I got this.
Never did did I think, and Ikept thinking when I graduated
from from my college, that was abig deal. It was it was a good
tool. And then I grad then Iwent through new ventures last,
which was a year long coachingprogram, which was like a
master's program. This becamealmost harder than any of those.

(01:08:13):
The path to freedom harder inthe sense that of what it what
it took to participate. And whatI had to learn. It was like
drinking out of a firehose. Andso I started GTP last summer,
and I'm engaged in one of themost extraordinary two months, I
honestly think one of the mostextraordinary two months of my
life. It was, you know, heartopening, cracking open every

(01:08:39):
part of me testing every singleboundary I've ever had, you
know, pushing me limit limitswise, you know, sleep wise,
everything. It was just really,this incredible, personal
challenge that he took on andembraced.

The image of drinking from a firehose is, is
accurate, and also hilarious tome. Just I'm picturing this, the
sweet little kid who's justthirsty and just wants to drink
and then gets assaulted by thismassively powerful burst of
water that they did not intendto encounter. I just wanted

Unknown (01:09:15):
some water. Exactly.
Just wanted a little trickle.
And then boom. Yeah, it's likeand then you you don't want to
You can't stop drinking. Youcan't turn it away. That's the
thing that's so interesting islike okay, more, just give me
more. And GBA GDP seven was justreally magical. I was I was I
had my pod guide wasunbelievable. And I kept

(01:09:37):
remembering thinking, I hadScott as my pod guide. He, he
allowed us and Jason was in mypod with me. I just really
credited him with so much of theholding of pulling that through
that class because you'd go toclass for two, two days, three
hours apiece, and then you'dhave a pod meeting where you
could just kind of go like whatAre we doing that? Like, what? I

(01:10:01):
have so many questions, and hekind of would piece this all
together again?

So that's actually, that's where my, you answered
the question almost before Ieven asked. Because that is,
that's the next question for meas as as a participant, and
then, and then I have somequestions for you as having gone
through it as a pod guy, but asa participant when you went
through G GTP. What, what is thething? What did the pod meetings
do? I mean, what you have class,you have your homework, you have

(01:10:28):
your, your, your not exercises,but like your assignments, and
all this in are the or the podmeetings to get clarity around
that stuff? Or is it more like,you know, this is hard, I need
help? Or is it just like talkingto a friend because you need
consoling? Because it's harderthan you thought it was gonna be
or what happens in those podmeetings.

Unknown (01:10:51):
So the pod meetings, I would say, just based on what
you just said, it's all of it.
And it's absolutely critical.
It's the glue for me that keptme together, I can go to school,
and I can go to meetings, likewe did with the cohort session,
those were not those were great,those are easy ish. And then the
homework and the LMS, you stayup on it. But those are all

(01:11:12):
individual, those are all you'redoing it on your own, the pod
gut, the pod meetings were whereyou could come be with other
people who are going throughexactly the same course that you
were going through and share allof our experiences, which were
all different. And then Godwould really helped to kind of
assimilate everything that wasgoing on for us and give us that

(01:11:35):
guidance of those nugget, thosegolden moments where he would
just say, and then think aboutthis, or this is how it is on
the inside or, you know, don'tworry about that. He just he
made everything. Okay, it justcalmed all of us down. And the
connection in those pod meetingswas extraordinary. And that was

(01:11:55):
the intimacy that you get reallyintimate with your cohort, but
it's not the same as in the pod.
And the holding that went onthere that por la the growth
happened.

In your pot. It's three or four people. It's
something

Unknown (01:12:10):
like minus six, minus two Hi, small, relatively small.
Yeah, yeah,

you still keep in touch with those folks.

Unknown (01:12:18):
I keep in touch with like, half of them. Yeah, we
lost two people, the end of theat the end of the session,
unfortunately, it's a lot, welost a lot of people last year
in the end, towards the secondmonth.

So we have a word for that attrition, attrition,
attrition, because it willhappen that it's you start off
with, you know, X number ofpeople, and at the end, it will
be x minus a certain number ofpeople just it's just how it is
always every, every everyAbsolutely.

Unknown (01:12:47):
And it's so for the right reasons to it's just not
where they meant to be at thatmoment.

Yeah. And they'll say often, it's i just i this, I
can't, or I don't I no longerwant to, or the list of reasons
is, as it's not short, but it's,I have a lot of respect for
someone who can say, You knowwhat, I thought I thought, and
now I think differently.

Unknown (01:13:11):
And so and there's that, and there's that magnet
pole, there's that magnetic polethat you really feel like, oh, I
should do this, or I need to dothis. Everyone else is doing
this, I should say, but Ireally, I honored the two women
who we lost who could have leftthe program in the second month
because it was not right forthem.

So one more question about going through GTP as a
participant, and then we'llbounce forward to GTP eight. Do
you remember? Are there anyassignments in particular that
stuck out or anything to do withhomework or presentations or
feedback or anything in thatprocess? When you think of GTP
seven that that sticks out toyou is is that was tough, and

(01:13:53):
I'm glad it happened?

Unknown (01:13:54):
Yeah, absolutely. I'm smiling because I think you
know, one of my answers the theone of them one of the
assignments that we did, we didit was during the DEI and B
section, we actually did ahomework assignment on bias,
what's your bias? And that waspretty confronting for me I

(01:14:15):
think of myself as a pretty openminded pretty accepting person.
And I was shocked that my biasesand how many I had didn't
realize that there was manybiases Is there is there along
this list. So I think what wasreally kind of revealing to me
was that even when I didn'tbelieve I was biased, I was
potentially being biased and sothat was a that was a very

(01:14:37):
confronting homework assignmentand really eye opening. And and
let me put down a lot of myattachments to that I didn't
realize I had. So that was thereally great clarity. It was a
it was a kind of a clearing ofkind of the some of the garbage
that I had going on in my lifethat I didn't realize I had

(01:15:00):
So that was lovely. The otherI would say the other most most
memorable was in the secondmonth, we do break we do in
breakout rooms, we dopresentations, it's the time
when we start to present. And weget, at the time, we would get a
heads up, who is going to be inyour room. And I had in my room
I was going to be presenting, Idon't remember what I was

(01:15:22):
presenting, but it was going tobe with Susan. And with you
clay. And for me, it felt reallyintimidating to try to do it in
front of Susan. And then you whoI didn't know with well, and it
was I just, it was one of thescariest things I've ever done.
And I got in, did it. And at theend, Susan said, Hey, can you

(01:15:49):
put down your notes? And justgive me three minutes?
Completely ad lib.
And I did it. And I rememberbeing done. And then the
feedback started. And you said,there you are. There you are.
And it was just this reallybeautiful moment because I was
so attached to the script and towhat I had written into the prep

(01:16:10):
that I had done and all the goodstudent Dana parts of it. And
you honored the fact that it'slike, there you are, that's what
we want. And yeah,

yeah. And we talked frequently, about, you know,
connect connection beforecontent, and showing up and
being there. And, you know, andand then I say often that it's
what you know, doesn't matter ifI'm not listening with you, or
to you and find my connectedwith you. And that's, I'm just

(01:16:43):
out. And I love. I love thatsuggestion from or perhaps
request from Susan to just justpush all the I'm speaking, I'm
paraphrasing, but basicallyshove all the content to the
side and just talk to me and seewhat shows up. And surprise

(01:17:04):
surprise Dana show, right? Yeah,that's right. That's right.
That's right.

Unknown (01:17:09):
And it's you know, it's even that concept of there you
are daily Shut up. It's still ait's a it's work in progress. It
is work to recognize that that'swhat's needed, not only for the
person listening, and thestudents on the inside
participants wherever it's forme, it's like, that's when I
feel my at my most authenticand at peace. Yeah. Good. Thanks

(01:17:31):
for sharing that. Yeah.

So going through GTP as a pod guide, what are some of
the things that you that youexpected that either did happen
or didn't happen? Some thingsthat were different? Or exactly
what you what you thought, orany? How was it going through
JTPA, not as a participant, butas a guide?

Unknown (01:17:57):
When I was first, when Dana first asked me, it was one
of those moments that I wasreally honored. I mean, really
honored just because I knew howimportant that role was for me
last summer. So it was first itwas first like this, oh my gosh,
this is so incredible. And oh mygod, how am I going to do that

(01:18:19):
for somebody else? How am Igoing to be that person. And we
got, I got a smaller little pod,it was just a pot of four. And
right off the bat, one of my podmembers family had some family
issues. And we were dealing withthat right off the bat.
And try to hold thatas well as holding the pod. And

(01:18:39):
she ended up having to leave theprogram, all the right reasons.
And helping her navigate that.
And then we had a little pot ofthree. So it was like a little
mighty group. And I think atfirst there was a little
disappointment on their partthat we're such a small little
group. And it was it reallybecame the magic in the group

(01:19:01):
and try to hold this spaceto help teach and guide and let
them learn how to do this stuff.
But not have it be awkward oruncomfortable or forced was this
really interesting balance thatwe had to go through. And we
found it and we were it was itwas probably one of the most

(01:19:28):
fulfilling, opening.
I mean, for me as well. Thepersonal development that I went
through in the course over overover the course of GTA was
actually really shocking. I keptthinking, Oh, I'm here. I'm here
to be a part guide. I'm here tolead. I'm here to impart my
knowledge, and it's justbullshit every time I do that.

(01:19:50):
It's so it's so not the casethat that's not why I'm here.
Like when you said oh, there youare. I'm here to show up as me
Eat, and when I mean, they canbe them. So it was this
discovery of part of myselfgetting introduced a part of
myself for the first time that Ididn't even know existed. And

(01:20:11):
when that happens, people thataround me can be who they are
supposed to be. And it's thatreciprocity. Again, it's a
beautiful reciprocity, but it'snot until I show up, did it
really occur?

That came that came up with one of the conversations
I had with one of the other guysand that's, it's, it's
everything that we talked aboutwhen we say, while we're guides,
or why you're a guide, insteadof a teacher, or, you know, a
leader or, you know, whateverlanguage that is commonly used
in most places that we justdon't use. And if we say it,
it's no big deal. But it's your,you're a guide, and you're not

(01:20:45):
there to carry people througheverything for them. It's, it's
make space, stand shoulder toshoulder and walk with them.
That's right, which is, which

Unknown (01:20:55):
was I'm gonna get and get really curious and help them
get curious about things thatthey had held as really very
static black and white kind of,you know, kind of places in
their life, that this is the waythat I am or this is not what I
do, or this is what I do, andgetting curious with them about
some of those emphatic that theystarted to soften, you could see

(01:21:16):
the softening and opening theYeah, this is how it changes for
me and I thought transformationin my pod.
That was extraordinary.
Extraordinary.

It's hilarious how fast 30 minutes goes by. And
I'm, I know, it's been niceseeing you around and being in
GTP. With you, we've I've, I waspretty active this time around
too. And so anyways, I don'twant to take up more of your
time. But just to turn the micover to you and share with the
listener what's on your heart,anything that you'd like to say,

(01:21:46):
to a, perhaps a future guide, orsomebody who might be
considering something like this,

Unknown (01:21:51):
I think that there's a couple things that just come to
mind right off the top whereit's mostly about
where I find myself in acommunity that I would never
normally have been a part of.
And I'm one of those people ifI'm not, if I'm not digging on
something, you mentioned thisearlier, I'll bow bounce, I'll

(01:22:14):
just like find my way out of itpretty quickly. And not only
have I not run away, not only bynot left any part of EPP but I
just keep finding ways to godeeper. And it is really not
even a choice it is a draw is apull for me into an organization

(01:22:35):
I was talking about the cult,without the lemonade. There's no
lemonade here. And I love thatbecause I still respect the
people that are a part of it,and why they're a part of it.
But we're not we're we're beingwe're leading together with our
eyes wide open, there's nothere's no magical person behind
the curtain, so to speak.

(01:22:57):
The draw thatthe keeps continuing to pull me
into this organization is isreal and it's it's significant.
And it's based on so manydifferent experiences that I've
had, you know, certainlyexperiences on the inside.
There's nothing that compareswith the conversation, the the
revelation, the beautifulmoments that we that we get to

(01:23:20):
have on the inside bothprofoundly sad and profoundly
kind of, you know, opening. Andso, so that's certainly what
keeps drawing me back in, butit's the exchanges that I get to
have within EPP with all kindsof different people from all
different kinds of walks oflife, who are all in this for

(01:23:42):
all different reasons. And Iwould say that my exposure to
and my experience with myrelationships with some of the
ambassadors is some of them. Imean, I was a coach of one of
the ambassadors that's how I gotconnected to EPP for a year and
a half my relationships withwith the ambassadors is precious
to me mean really, reallyprecious to me. And it is kind

(01:24:03):
of the lifeblood of thisorganization, for sure. And it
is I think, for me being in GTPI probably pushed myself harder
than I've ever pushed myself.
And if you're in a situation, ifsomeone's in a situation where

(01:24:26):
they're really curious aboutthis work, being ready to get
pushed, and really just stretchis, is it's a really cool place
to do it. Because it's it's agift to yourself, when I know
that this has been a gift to me.
And as a Type Two, that's notsomething I'm really good at.
And to really find that spacefor me and to learn and knowing

(01:24:49):
that I can there's thisreciprocity, knowing that
there's this place that I cangive back to and I'm going to
get more from it. I'm going togive it back to and it just
keeps on It's like thisbeautiful kind of cycle that we
need in the world of, of, ofgoodness of authenticity of love
of love.

(01:25:10):
It's just loveso thank you, Clay. I'm Stella.
I work with Type Seven. She herpronouns. And how did I come to
EPP. It's been about, oh, I'mgonna say over three years now

(01:25:35):
and started more as a coach,working with ambassadors and
then getting invited toreconnecting, which was a gift
to meet so many involved in EPPand then continued because it
just invited me in as a two mostrecently being a guide.

So you came in, that's an interesting entry
point, you came in, as you werea coach, in our coaching program
with the ambassadors. And didyou so were you already using
the Enneagram? Before you cameto the EPP? Or was there? What
What's your history with theEnneagram?

Unknown (01:26:19):
Thank you, Clay. Yeah.
So I was introduced to theEnneagram, when I was certified
coaching with new ventures west.
So I had some exposure to theEnneagram. And I was intrigued
taking courses at the Enneagramnarrative tradition. And so
while there, I was reintroducedto EPP, because I had met Susan
Lessig at a new ventures Westclass, but I'm on the east

(01:26:40):
coast. So I thought, hey, youknow, it's not that easy. I'm in
the New York area. And so it wasalways there, but never as
accessible. And so I actuallymet Jason, at the narrative
tradition, and taking somecourses there and became
certified there concurrently, asI was certifying as a guide with

(01:27:01):
Enneagram Prison Project,that's a lot of work.

That's a lot. And I'm understanding that and I
think just just for the listenerwho might not know, that's a
that's a, that's a that's awhole lot of a whole lot and a
small amount of time, whenyou're doing that side by side,
or is it? I don't know, I don'twant to speak for

Unknown (01:27:21):
Yeah, it is. And at the same time,
it's, it's connected, right? Sothere's a theme that connects it
and a community that goesacross? And so yes, it is, it is
a lot of work, because it alsois not just work in a
methodology or work and learningsomething, it's inner work on
oneself. Right. And it's innerwork on oneself as an

(01:27:44):
individual, and it's workingtogether with others
collectively. And so to yourpoint, Clay, holding that space,
as one is continuing to grow.
And witness one another growing.
It is a lot of work. And it'sit's deep and profound, and not
necessarily fragmented anddivided and broad, if that makes

(01:28:07):
sense.

Yeah, it does make sense. And what I'm hearing is,
is a thing that I've heard a fewtimes actually, where's this
idea of, it's not just aboutlearning content. It's not just
I'm not just reading a book andmemorizing some definitions and
some ideas and some other stuff.
I'm working on myself throughthis process. And that is,
that's different, most of ourmost most, I don't know, at

(01:28:33):
least in the States, oureducational style is, you know,
give me information, informationinformation, who I am doesn't
matter. Just give me theinformation. And that doesn't
seem to be true with with thework that we do. So, I mean,
yeah, information is important.
You got to have the content, butit's working on yourself and

(01:28:55):
getting to that point to whereyou can make those connections
to share that content with thefolks who are who are there. Who
are there who need it, frankly,is that is that a fair? Am I Am
I restating that fairly oraccurately?

Unknown (01:29:12):
Yeah, you are in something that you said clay
that that I really, I heard was,you know, sort of it's it's
working on who I am. Right? It'snot working on what I do. And
that's really a distinction.
Right? Because what I do is onething but who I am is how I am
and when we connect with oneanother heart to heart it's also

(01:29:33):
seeing myself so it can be alittle scary which is why trust
and support and as we startedthis conversation protecting or
not protecting but listen myword projecting right. But
really think about respecting myboundaries. And yet sometimes
realize in this work, I amprotecting certain things. And
oh, when when do I sense andfeel it's safe within me? II and

(01:29:58):
then with each other, right, andthe respect that we are in this
work together is that we arediscovering, we are exploring.
And so that is unique to thiswork. There's not so much a
hierarchy, that there's anexpert teacher, and hence the
word guide. Right? Right that Iand so that to me is makes a

(01:30:22):
real difference in how weexplore who we are, how we are.
And who we will be.

You went through GTP. Was it seven? As a
participant? I

Unknown (01:30:33):
did? Yes. Seven.
Remember, Type Seven? GTP?
Seven. Yeah.

So you so what are some of the differences going
through GTP? Seven as aparticipant and going through
GTP? Eight as a guide? I wouldimagine that's a very different
experience. Oh, yeah.

Unknown (01:30:51):
Yes, it first of all, one is in such a different
place, right?
So as a participant, thenervousness the Oh, what's this
going to be like? It'sunfolding, right? It's
unfolding. And I think aparticipant GTP, seven, there
was something also to trust tofeel the magic to allow it to be

(01:31:13):
and to unfold. And there was I'mnot going to, you know, the oh
my gosh, like, am I going toperform again, am I going to
meet the needs, you know, Idon't like the word feedback.
And I think it's because of mycorporate experience. I'm
like, I feel like there's arating. So I've gotten over
that, but it's still like cringea little bit.

(01:31:33):
And, and so being, but yet, atthe same time in GTP, seven
being held, right, and beingheld that it is about practicum.
It is about being safe forothers, and I would say as a
participant.
When I compare it to GTP, eightand TTP eight as a as a guide, I

(01:31:55):
knew where we were going, do youknow what I'm saying? Like I
knew the map, right? The sessionplans where we're supposed to
be, whereas as a participant, Iam I'm exploring in a different
way. Yeah. And yeah. And in GTP,eight, I was really impressed as
a guide, to also see how much welearned in GTP. Seven, that

(01:32:18):
would create a much more clear,robust, not disciplined in a way
that was constructed but morestructure to GTP. Eight that
provided more support for theparticipants than we might have
had experienced in GTP. Seven.

Any examples? come to mind on that?

Unknown (01:32:42):
Yeah, some of the examples were around clarity of
pacing, the homework, you know,what I would have sent GTP
seven,

there's a lot of homework, by the way, is
literally as a homework tracker.
That's how much homework Yes,there is.

Unknown (01:32:58):
Yes, yeah, there was a lot of homework. And so when GTP
seven, it's all do, I was littleagain, I could procrastinate in
that without feeling or sensingthat. And I realized in
retrospect, oh, it would havebeen good if I had done it more
along the way. So in GT P eight,there's more self empowerment of
accountability of tracking yourassignments, there's the pod

(01:33:22):
sessions, which are the smallergroups that you actually review
and get to share your homeworktogether. So much more
transparency, of I'd say peersupport in sharing what am I
learning? How am I approachingthis? And we we had our pods and
GTP seven, and they werewonderfully supportive. What we

(01:33:46):
add in GTP, eight was a littlemore of the review of the
logistics and the support aroundwhat to do when it is due, and
to share more transparently thecomponents of each other's
homework. Gotcha. So

it's, it's more light is shined for the
participant on what Just whatthe hell is happening?
Basically,

Unknown (01:34:06):
I would think so although I'm sure if I talk to a
participant DTPA they'llprobably describe it just like I
did. GTP seven. I've never, Ican't describe it for someone as
a participant. Yeah.
And also, I mean, it's, you'vebeen through it too. So not only
are you are you guide, butyou've been through it as a
participant and you and anytimeyou do something, the more you
do it, the more familiar youget, you know, with with the

(01:34:29):
process, so it would make sensefor participant to still
potentially feel a little bitof, of, of, you know, maybe
being lost is too big of aworry, but just like not knowing
like what's what's what's aroundthe corner, do they do they have

do the participants have access to a like a master
syllabus or a plan or like, didthey know what weeks which
things are happening? Or arethey are they are they told like
as as the time comes, how doesthat work? For the participants,

Unknown (01:35:02):
yeah, no, we all receive principle Participants
included this a syllabus, okay.
And the syllabus does have weekby week, the general topics,
right that are going to happen.
And they also receive theassignments ahead of time what
is due when, and something thatwe also learned is probably even

(01:35:22):
before GTP, nine kicks off, ishave some of those meetings
earlier, because it's a lot tojust start, and then you're
getting everything that's due.
And it's not all due at the sametime. But you see what
homeworks? Do you see whatpracticums are there? There's
still clarity, though, right?
And and, you know, we're all, weall are drawn to this work, to

(01:35:43):
want to make a difference. So toinvest, right, because to be in
guide training, I've gonethrough nine p 1k. I've done
path to freedom. I've appliedfor
this. And I'm committing to thework for on me, with me with
others. And then upongraduating and what word I would

(01:36:05):
use.
I think, yeah, I go toapprenticeship, right. So even
then it's there's more ofapprenticing. So ensuring that
we are all doing our own work sothat we are safe as we open up
to do work with others, right,that is so critical. And so part
of the training, we cansometimes get caught up in the

(01:36:28):
performance of what to do whenand we can give as much clarity
of that. And so the more that wecan make that framework as clear
as possible, then it is thecontainer that we can do our own
work within while we arecontinuing our work. And we're
preparing to guide others,right. So that's a we're doing

(01:36:49):
to there's a continuum of thework that's going on, I guess
I'd sayyeah. And you said, I want to I
want to go back to a word thatyou said said a couple times
actually talking about thepracticum. And a lot of folks
who listen to the podcast willwill know that we're using the
same language we we a lot offolks are are from are already
doing this stuff. So there's alot of language that we use that

(01:37:11):
they that they don't requireexplanation. And then there's
also the small chance thatthere's somebody who's
listening, who doesn't knowanything, this might be the
first time they've listened evento the podcast. And so for that
person, could you give a briefoverview, like what exactly is a
practicum? And you mentionedearlier about the feedback and
some other things? What what,you know, what, uh, what goes on

(01:37:33):
in the practicums? Yes.
So there's, you know, use, I'veused the word
homework, practice practicum,right. So homework is something
that I'm achieving, and I'mgetting some feedback on but but
it's feedback, that's, you know,my learning, pure learning,
right, I'm practicing certainskills, and I'm also getting

(01:37:55):
some feedback from a few of my,my colleagues, my peers from the
guides, and then I move intopractical. And so practicum is
much more I am actually nowteaching. I'm actually now
guiding portions of the modules,I'm guiding with someone else,

(01:38:15):
I'm actually in a practicum,doing what I would do guiding.
And it's abbreviated, becauseit's, it's, you know, might be
20 minutes, half an hour. And inthat, as I prepare for that I do
that I am ensuring that I havethe EPP curriculum. And I'm
bringing myself to that mystory, my work, who and how I am

(01:38:37):
in this. And when I do that Ihave others that witness my
doing that in a supportive way.
Many times there are ambassadorswho join us, which is wonderful.
There are other guides, andthere are others from the cohort
of the guide training. And onceI do that, I pause to actually
give myself feedback. First, howdid I do? Is the regrowth edge

(01:39:01):
for me, what did I do that Ireally felt I did well, so self
reflection and self awareness isso critical, because as a guide,
there will be times I may needto stop in the middle of guiding
to say, Oh, where am I? How am Iright now? What am I doing?
Well, pause, reflect. And sothat reflection of my growth

(01:39:23):
edge and what I did well, thenhearing the same feedback on
those parameters, what is itthat worked? Where are there
some areas for an edge of growthfrom an ambassador, that's a
gift? What's it like to do thisin custody? How might I be
received from my colleagues andfrom guides? And so I take that

(01:39:44):
and that feedback, I take and Iown in my own way of doing self
development. I actually recordthat feedback for me, and I
practice and in the nextpracticum I hope to address some
of that The practicums aredifferent not only because of
the feedback, if I did not do acertain level of readiness in

(01:40:06):
the practicum, I then get toredo the practicum. So what's
very important in the practicum?
Is they are, I would say, Ariashave an approved, or no, you're
not ready, a redo. But you dohave the opportunity to redo

(01:40:27):
with a beautiful feedback. Andso I'd say that's the practicum
is that helpful? Clay

100%. And there's, there's a few things that I that
I know about it. And forwhatever reason I'm hearing for
the first time now that I justreally love about the way that
we do that. First is the selfreflection. So it does depend a
bit, you're, you might have fourpeople, five people in a
breakout. And then you have theperson doing their, their, their
presentation or their lesson.
And then after that everybodyelse will get feedback. But it

(01:40:55):
starts with the person who didit. And how do you feel about
that? And yeah, it's in realtime. What do you think? And we
have a structure, it's what doyou think you do? Well, like you
said, What do you think you did?
Well, what do you what would youlike to do differently? And it's
actually really cool to seepeople in the moment, assessing

(01:41:16):
what they just did, because nowall the nerves are gone, there
might be some kind of adrenalinedump. For some people that
happened. Everybody experiencesthings differently. And, and
then we move on to other folks,you know, giving, giving their
feedback. And we follow thatsame structure, what we thought
you did, well, what we thoughtyou could use, you know, an area
of improvement, and there'salways, always one of each,

(01:41:41):
there should be yes. And if youcan't listen to somebody talk
for 20 minutes, and have atleast one of each. I don't think
you were listening. That's just,that's just my perspective, or
my opinion.

Unknown (01:41:53):
And, and,

and and so that's one thing I love about it. And
then something else that I thatI heard is without you saying
it, what I heard you said wasit's a it's a pass or a redo,
which is massively differentthan pass or fail? Yes, there is
no fail. It's not there's youdidn't get an F and now go home,
you failed. It's here's thething where you can improve? And

(01:42:16):
we will, and we think you can,you know, we think you we think
you will if you you know, if youimplement this feedback, it's so
different than a typicallearning experience, or typical
practicing experience. No,

Unknown (01:42:30):
no. And part of that is when when you join that with
what is it that we're lookingfor, right? And so it is the
ability to be present. Wecontent is a component, but it's
not the only component. Right?
We're also are you present here?
Are you able to create a safecontainer? Are you engaging the

(01:42:50):
others in this? Right? Does itfeel authentic? And so we do,
you know, we use the term andothers may have said the rubric,
which is this way to actuallythink

that first one to bring it up, actually.

Unknown (01:43:03):
You're the first one to say to him, Listen, my memory is
failing, which I don't think itis, you might be the first one
to bring it up was talking aboutthe rubric. So there's a scary
word What the hell is what thehell is a rubric? Oh, man.
I'm looking at Where's a rubricthat I can refer to?
Because, well, okay, so. So, Iwould say that the rubric, when

(01:43:27):
we look at giving feedback, italso is against some certain
expected, I'm gonna use the wordcapabilities, competencies, that
as a guide, that I would beseeking to hold myself
accountable to. And when I lookat those, it's not like I to
your point, I pass or fail, or Iever arrived, because how I am

(01:43:50):
in each session may look alittle different each time,
right. So as a guide, I could belooking at feeling that I held
presents in this session. Nextthe following week, I could say,
oh, my gosh, I had so muchtrouble being present. So the
beauty of something like therubric is can I locate myself,

(01:44:11):
right? Similar to what we talkedabout above below the line? Can
I locate myself where I am. Andso when we look at it, we call
it x, I'm looking at it now theuniversal observation of how we
did so. So I look at and this isyeah, I'm just looking at now is
can I manage the logistics? CanI can I technically share the

(01:44:34):
screen? Can I upload filesbecause as we're guiding,
particularly in custody, there'sa lot of logistics that need to
be handled and respected.
Homework, getting it back toparticipants on time, because if
we don't, unlike now, we're inlockdown their participants who
never got their homework back,which breaks my heart. So the
accountability that operationsis not just something

(01:44:57):
administrative. It's also acontainer of holding technical
capability to serve. Right, thepresence we talked about the
community of EPP and holding asafe container, and content. And
then am I self aware. So thebeauty of that is we can look at
this and say, Ah, these are keyto me being able to really be

(01:45:21):
present and relevant. And I hateto use the word effective, but I
guess I'd say, of joining andinviting to do this work and
making it safe to do it. Yeah.

I like affective for the record. And I'll go with
you, I'll go with you with whatyou said instead of that, I was
on board with that. And when yousaid it. I kind of you know,
when you when you explain thethe practicum. And talking about
the feedback and how all thatworks, I remember some, I've

(01:46:00):
been a part of a lot of those,and I enjoy it, it's one of the
things that I love doing as anambassador, it's one of my
favorite things, actually,sometimes it's a little
uncomfortable, frankly, becausethere are some very unpleasant
things that I feel like needs tobe said. And sometimes I'll use
some real loose like languagehere, just saying, like, if
somebody totally bombs, it's notgoing to serve them to ignore

(01:46:23):
that. And you know, it's not myjob to make them feel better, if
they, if they do bomb, and whatis my job is to be there with
them, and support them as theygrow into the guide that we
believe that they can be. So ifthey use phrases or slang, I

(01:46:44):
gotta say, hey, that's like,don't do that in prison,
especially. Or if theycompletely miss a content piece,
then you get it. So while thereis a lot of support there, it
can also it can be unpleasantand uncomfortable some of the
feedback that we give, so as aguide, and you're holding this

(01:47:06):
for for the participants, and inparticular in your pod, like how
does that? How does that lookfrom your perspective, when you
know that someone struggled? Andthen got some, some ouchy
feedback, shall we say?

Unknown (01:47:21):
Yeah, yeah, it's, um, you know, I think for so many of
us in our society, when there'ssomething that we didn't
achieve, or do in a way that webelieve, needed to meet a
standard, right, so it gets backto something we talked about
earlier, our academic or school,right, things come up for us.
And so if I'm didn't dosomething, well, then I'm bad.
Right? So it's really separatingthe the behavior or something

(01:47:45):
that I said, from who I am. And,you know, I, when you're talking
clay, I was just thinking we'reinviting to a cultural
competence, that I canappreciate being inclusive, that
I can understand, who am Ispeaking to, and their

(01:48:06):
experience? Right? You know, wetalk a lot about neuro
diversity, equity, inclusion,right? Belonging, that's where
the feedback makes. Thedifference is we're in being
invited to understand how is itto ensure that we're not
unintentionally, and I'll usethe word unintentionally

(01:48:27):
creating a barrier that willaffect the ability for us to
credibly engage in inner work?
Because the invitation is not totake notes and pace, pass an
exam when we're guiding? It'snot? It's actually an invitation
to say, can you put yourpersonality aside a little bit?

(01:48:49):
Can you maybe open up a littlebit the armor there, to have a
vulnerability to love You,yourself to have compassion for
yourself? So the feedback, Claywhen it's given, even in
something like operations, orlanguage, or lack of presence,
it is because the work is aboutbeing able to be present, open,

(01:49:15):
supportive, and knowing thatit's the ouch
is it's a bigger Ouch. If I gointo those spaces, without
awareness, yeah. Yeah. And it'snot even an ounce on them,
though. Clay it's right. Becausepart of it is think about we're
going in with populations thatalready have a vulnerability. So

(01:49:39):
why should I trust you? And youcome in and you haven't done
your own work or you're notaware of that. So So I think the
awareness is so critical. Andso, and the way that it's
delivered, I've been in thosefeedback sessions with you. I
know it's hard sometimes to not,you know, we're so used to
telling everybody why you didgreat.

What you want to do Oh, you're awesome thumbs up,
like, that's what I want to do.

Unknown (01:50:05):
And the issue is maybe I was thumbs up on Tuesday, and
I crashed on Thursday. So, youknow, it's not like,
that's the issue too, which iswhat I love about the self
observation. Right? So even asan apprentice, these rubrics
don't go away. You're lookingat, how am I doing? at certain

(01:50:25):
intervals? Because we go up anddown. We do. And, and that's, I
think, bringing awareness andintention.
So if I make an ouch,I can pause and go, I'm sorry.
Like, whoa, what just happenedhere? Right, that if I can
acknowledge I missed up to in amoment. I don't know. To me that

(01:50:46):
opens the bridge of ourhumanity. Yeah.

And you're also demonstrating that this is, this
is how this is what it lookslike, when when I, you know, I
have the freedom to use a littlemore colorful language here.
Like if I fuck up, and then Ican immediately say, Hey, I
fucked up, like you'redemonstrating to other people
how to go about that, because weultimately all fuck up. And

(01:51:11):
that's just how that's just,like you said, that's just
that's that's the humanity init. Because we're

Unknown (01:51:16):
it is and it's a difference, right? I fucked up.
I am not a fuckup. There's adifference. Big difference.

Yeah, yeah. Because the action is just a misstep.
But as a person, I'm, I'm, I'mokay. Like, I am not an
accident. I just made it out. Ijust, I just made an Oopsie. I'm
not Oopsie. Yes.

Unknown (01:51:36):
To remind ourselves up, but and it's hard, right? It's,
that's hard. So to do that withwith caring, and again, in the
practicum, there's a redo.

And the redo will happen as many times as it needs
to until it's there. Andthere's, there's no, there never
is a failure. There's not afailing grade, there's that
there's nothing like that. It'sjust a more invitation to keep
to keep working, which is.

Unknown (01:52:02):
And then I think what also happens is I'm, I'm
responsible. So so as aparticipant, and as a guide, I
have autonomy, I have agency.
And so I may, at some point,say, Oh, I don't know that I'm
ready yet. And that's okay. I'llhelp you get ready. But it's not
a it's not a fail. But I mayalso say, and I remember with

(01:52:22):
some of the guides that I workwith, will say, Whoa, I'm not
able to be here today, I'm notready for this session, there's
so much going on in my life, Ineed more support,

it's nice to hear from, from from from other
guides who you know, who gothrough this process, both as a
participant, obviously, and nowas a guide. Because as much as I
know about EPP and how thingsare, you know, I don't, I
haven't experienced everything.
I'm not a guide. I'm I'm anambassador, with a lot of years
under my belt. But there arethings that I just don't know,

(01:52:56):
and I can't explain to people.
So thank you for sitting andexplaining all those things. to
folks who are curious, I'mconvinced that people do, do
listen with quite a bit ofcuriosity about all the things
that we do. So with that, I'lljust say thank you. And thank
you again. And any any closingthoughts from you, you get the

(01:53:16):
final word here, I'm going toliterally turn off my mic and
just turn the floor over to youwith anything that you'd like to
say to the listener or toanybody? Well,

Unknown (01:53:25):
first of all, I want to thank you clay, as an
ambassador, who was with usthrough so much of GTP eight,
and all the ambassadors, who Ialso felt were guides. Yeah,
guides may be of a differentsort. But but our guides in this
work. And I think we we all canguide in different levels. So

(01:53:50):
the ambassadors, I think, eachone of you for all that you are
and be and I would say for theparticipants for the courage,
right. And I and I just thoughtof this today, and I encouraged.
So with courage and encouragedtogether, that this work is

(01:54:12):
always organic and starting andhas such a purpose of the heart.
And so when I think of the GTPin particular, I feel like we've
opened a legacy of, of energy,of commitment. You know, I can
close my eyes and see the cohortsix and see everyone and the

(01:54:39):
courage that each person broughtand the support to one another,
and the opening and the maybetripping up a little bit and
then lifting themselves up. Andso I feel excited. I see the
possibilities. I see theexpansion. I see the commitment.
And so I just want to thankeveryone who's participating And

(01:55:00):
I encourage for those who arethinking about guide training.
We say it's not for the faint ofheart. But it is for those that
have a heart. And there's aresilience but there's not.
There's an invitation

Deb Horton (01:55:26):
I'm Deb, Type Six, I use she her pronouns. That's it.
That's how we always introduceherself. And glad to be here,
Clay, I'm glad that I was ableto take part and GTP eight as a

(01:55:47):
pod guide, and I,

Unknown (01:55:49):
I really enjoyed it.
Yeah.

And you're a guide with EPP and you're a podcast,
as you said, in GTA, is thisyour first time being a pod guy
in the guide training program?
Or have you done thatpreviously,

I was I was also a pod guy last year for TTP seven.
And so I knew kind of,

Unknown (01:56:11):
I knew going in, like,

the growth opportunities for me that would
be there. You know, that. It'seasy for me. I think I talked to
Dana and Suzanne, about thisbefore, you know, before doing
it, it's easy for me to be acheerleader.

Unknown (01:56:30):
And you know, the coach part

of it, if you kind of let that those are the two
aspects, I feel like we'reholding, you know, being a
cheerleader and encouraging andalso being a coach and
providing, hopefully, reallyhelpful and supportive feedback
for how to

Unknown (01:56:49):
how to improve. And so

it was like that it wasn't, it was really, it was a
really great opportunity. And Ifelt like for me, personally,
it's everything when EPP feelslike an opportunity to do my own
inner growth and inner work incommunity together. So certainly
this was that for me. And thebiggest delight of all those

(01:57:14):
just being a part of part of theteam, you know, that my
particular pod, we were pod awhich, immediately when I saw
that I thought pot awesome. Andwe were pot is really such a
great group. And we had a reallygood time together. And then the
the Suzanne and Dawn and Janicedella and I as

Unknown (01:57:36):
a team to was, was just delightfully fun being with
them.

Yeah, but it's interesting, the thing, the
first thing that you mentioned,is about your own opportunity
for, for personal growth. Andthis is a common thread that has
come up with, I believeeverybody so far is is, is yeah,
you're there. You're a guide. Soyou're helping the next batch

(01:58:04):
of, you know, prospectiveguides, you know, come through,
but you're, it's you're not justthere as a source of
information, or you're not justthere as a, as the head of the
class, you know, kind of runningthings or anything like that
you're, you're there andexperiencing your own your own
growth in the process. And it's,it's kind of it's kind of cool.

(01:58:26):
And it's also super unusual,because I don't think that's
typical, in most most forms ofeducation, I think I'll say
like, you wouldn't see a lot ofteachers saying, you know, well,
here I am teaching third gradeagain. And I'm surprised at all
the things that I learnedbecause that's just not how it
works, right? How, how does thatwork? Why is it that if you're

(01:58:49):
there as a guide, and you'rethere for the for the new folks?
How do you see that inner workin your own life? The potential
the opportunities, kind ofshowing up? Where does Where's
there time for that? If you'regrading homework and doing all
the other stuff that comes alongwith being a guy? Where is there
room for that?

Unknown (01:59:09):
Well, well, I don't

know. I just feel like if there isn't room for
that, then I don't want to bedoing it. You know, because I
know I haven't arrived. And Igot it to me it also feels like
the bigger culture of EPP it'sit's just it's part of the
reason why I love being involvedwith EPP and it's, it's a
community of

Unknown (01:59:34):
people. You know, when

the women I've met at Shakopee women's prisons
where I've taught and all theother people involved in the EPP
it's just community of peoplewho are interested in being
honest with looking inside andseeing what's there. Having the
courage not to turn away fromthat and I'm like, we're all

(01:59:57):
just on a journey together doingour own work and nope, He's,
nobody's arrived, nobody'sthere. So it just, it feels like
it fits like, it wouldn't,

Unknown (02:00:06):
it wouldn't work if,

if it was the other way around, because as, as you
know, as most people listeningto this podcast, now we do the
work together, that's what itmeans, you know, and

Unknown (02:00:18):
the other day,

I was, you know, Type Six, can go to places have
like lots of worrisome thoughtsor angst or whatever, you know,
I'm laying there in bed, and I'mthinking about I was having some
negative thoughts about thispodcast, you know, and me
participating, and what am Igoing to say, and that type of

(02:00:40):
thing. And the thing that cameto me was, you know, one of the
biggest things this is about tome is self compassion.

Unknown (02:00:50):
And, and I, I love

encouraging other people towards self compassion,
but it didn't hit me right awaythat Okay, in this moment, can I
show myself compassion? Youknow, first time, there's like,
a whole nother deeper level of,okay, you know, it's okay, if
it's not perfect. It's

Unknown (02:01:09):
okay. I don't know. So self compassion,

I feel like is a big theme for EPP and it's a really
a big theme and GTP, a and otherall the DI training programs
that I've been a part of.
Because you see, it's hard. It'sreally hard. And, and you know
that from being a big part of ityourself. And oh, gosh, there's
so many opportunities for selfcompassion for all of us, but

(02:01:36):
especially to the unbelievablyawesome people who are in the
process, and who are who areactually doing the practicums
and getting feedback all thetime. And

Unknown (02:01:51):
now,

yeah, I'd like to try I think maybe in a future
episode, we'll chat with some ofthe participants and see, you
know, what it's like, from theirperspective, I didn't I actually
kicked around the idea of, ofdoing that for this episode,
some, but there's so fresh outof it. And actually, some of
them are still doing reduce. AndI don't want to they've they fit
through, they've been throughenough.

Unknown (02:02:13):
Yeah, no kidding. Okay, so that could be part two, this
could be part one they could, Iwould love that would be great
to hear from them.

That's I like it part two. And that, that just
might be the next episode. Inever know, I usually don't know
what the next episode is goingto be until the current one is
finished. But I think that onemakes the most sense. And, and
yeah, they, they have had a busycouple of months. And, you know,

(02:02:40):
going going through GTP. It is,it's an interesting thing to
see. And I and I've experiencedit from my perspective, which is
that of an ambassador, and notas a guide, not as a
participant. And there's a lotthat goes on in GTP. That's,
that's unlike anything else I'veexperienced elsewhere. So like

(02:03:02):
the practicums, the, you know,practicing a lot of these, a lot
of the participants are, aredoing centering practices,
they're leading in a centeringpractice for the first time. And
there's a lot of things that arethat are that are different
here. What would you say as likea like a brief overview for
somebody who might be listeningfor the first time and doesn't

(02:03:25):
know what the guided trainingprogram is? What what what would
you say? Just a brief summary ofwhat exactly goes on? You know,
it's a couple months long, Idon't I don't know exactly how
many weeks it is, but what whatare those participants going
through? Well,

when you as you were talking, that thing that kept
coming popping into my mind iseverything all at once. Because
it's there is pre work and and Ithink in next versions of GPP,
we might have more pre work. Butthere there are books, there's
reading, there's a bunch ofstuff to do ahead of time. And

(02:04:03):
then jumping right in. I mean,there, I think we did have a
technology orientation ahead oftime. But that just aside from
everything else, all of thetechnology that we use, and all
of the tracking that we use thatwe asked them to do their own
version of because that's whatwe do when we're teaching in
jails and prisons, that type oftracking with you know, homework

(02:04:25):
and just attendance and there'sthere's there's Marco Polo,
there's slack, there's GoogleDrive, I don't know what else am
I forgetting clay, I mean,there's so many things that

Unknown (02:04:36):
that that that layer is is heavy and then then there is
the part about mean theEnneagram we

know that they've been through our two classes,
and so we know that they knowsome about the Enneagram but
there's paneling some peoplehaven't done any paneling
before. So there's teachingabout paneling, there's teaching
about holding, creating thecontainer. It's so it's amazing
to me how much is in that twoweek time period, or that two

(02:05:13):
month time period. It's, it'samazing to me and so to be
taking in a lot of information,and then we one of the biggest
things that we do in EPP what I,I did before EPP and where the
reason I love EPP is that wetalk about what's right about

(02:05:33):
you. And we talk about thelooking inside. And what is that
true self? The part of you thatshines, you know, what is that
light inside of you that shinesand divine spark or whatever
words you might want to use

Unknown (02:05:48):
to really honestly, look at that and start with
that. I think that's what, like,

undergirds everything and kind of like
saves it from being a disasterfor everybody. Because, because
we can always come back toexcuse me when we when we run up
against our shortcomings and youknow, our overwhelms and all
that stuff. I mean that that'sthe anchor, you know, that we
can come back to? So I don'tknow if I'm answering thoroughly

(02:06:18):
or not. But those are just a fewthoughts. Yeah,

for sure. And it's I took a peek at one of the
trackers. And it's I think it's14 sessions, which are typically
twice a week. And so with,there's a break in there. So it
is it is basically it's like a,what is that seven or eight
weeks, something like that, onceit starts that doesn't include
the pre work and stuff likethat. Something that you said
there. And I kind of want tokind of want to go deeper on

(02:06:42):
this just to understand you talkabout talking about what's
what's good about or what'sright about us, but to us to use
myself as an example becausethat's, I'm okay, I'm okay being
in the spotlight here. It's easyfor me to know what I do, that's
not good. It's easy for me toknow how I show up in the world

(02:07:04):
that's unpleasant, or where I'man asshole or whether I'm a jerk
or, like, it's so easy to, tojust pinpoint a thing that I
don't like about myself and tryto stop doing it. What's hard is
to say, What do I do? Well, whatwhy do people like me? And so
just from my limitedperspective, if I'm thinking in
terms of energy, if it's easy todo the one thing and hard to do

(02:07:29):
the other? Where is the where isthe value? Or why is it better?
Why is it EPP it's approach tofocus on what's right about me,
when it's so easy to see all thenegative things about me?

Unknown (02:07:44):
Why is that? Well, why is that? I'm just curious. I
mean, I have something to say.
But why do you think?

I don't know. I mean, the part of my process was
being shown all the negativetraits that people see in me,
and in it. And I had to agreewith that. And, and for the
record, I agree with ourapproach, and I support our
approach. And I'm glad that'show we do it. So I'm being a
little bit of a devil'sadvocate. With the question,

(02:08:12):
it's good, which is hopefullyobvious. And if it's not, then I
just said it. And so but, but tome, it was it was like arrogant,
condescending, all these thingsthat my mom and I talked about
in a previous episode, actually.
And I had to agree with that.
And I had to face the reality ofwho I was.

Unknown (02:08:30):
And

the irony is, is, I already knew that I just didn't
care I in at the point where Istarted caring. That's where I
started looking for solutions.
So what I didn't know is, youknow, I'm a Type Five and what I
what I didn't know about TypeFive in general, or me
specifically, is the goodnessthat existed inside of me and in
which our, you know, our,there's a long list of things

(02:08:59):
that are good about me, and thatare good about Type Five in
general, and that are good aboutall people. And so, but it's
still easier for me to just go,Hey, I'm being an asshole. Let's
stop being an asshole. That'seasier than saying how do I find
the light and help it shine?

(02:09:19):
more brightly?

Yeah, well, I think they're super connected, like
two sides of the same coin, thesame thing really almost.
Because, I mean, if we, I'm likeyou, and I think probably many
of us are. What we see first isour shortcomings. I mean, that's
what we know. I know aboutmyself.

Unknown (02:09:38):
And but what I

what I did before, and I think what's different
about the approach that we takeis it i i saw it, I judged it
and I tried to push it away. Ididn't embrace it. And so to
have that kind of compassion formyself as I sit with My, the
pain of my whatever it is

Unknown (02:10:05):
to really

imagine and feel that I can hold my own pain and
hold myself with compassion and

Unknown (02:10:14):
look at my fear. And I had this experience one

time was kind of like in my imagination, but I
think of it as like animaginative prayer, you know,
but I saw myself as a youngperson, like maybe I don't know
how old seven or eight orsomething. But what I saw in my
mind's eye was myself putting upa manhole cover in the street,
and I was peering out. And I wasscared, I saw the fear in my
eyes. And so I imagined myselfgoing over and sitting down on

(02:10:48):
the street next to myself andtalking and then ended up
crawling down into the sewersitting next to myself, and,
like, what is it? What are youafraid of what is you know, just
talking and having compassionfor that little person? Who was
me. And that's the difference, Ifeel like, that's what we're
inviting when we look at are theparts of us that are hard. And

(02:11:13):
maybe it was assholes, orwhatever, you know, like that
is, there's something behindthat. And it is us, usually
trying to cover up our divinespark, it's, it's, it's, you
know, the mimic of the divinespark, and there's a really good
reason, there's a really goodreason for it. And it protected
us at me, this is nothing newthat you haven't heard before.

(02:11:34):
Many, you know, one that I mean,it's not new to anyone probably
listening to this podcast, butit's so true. And, and if we can
really hold that pain and havecompassion for ourselves, then
that's where to me that for me,that's where my growth really
continues. And, and I think thatGTP eight, gosh, that's like,

(02:11:55):
you've got so much going on thepeople that participants have
this, and then the guides dohave so much to do. And it's
easy, it was easy for me to likefall into overwhelm, you know,
just ending as a guide than aparticipant. And then can I can
I see that part of myself havecompassion for that and then and

(02:12:16):
then come to a place of trust,you know, like, Okay, I'm not
going to let this overwhelm stopme like, sometimes it does. That
was one nice little spot in GTP,eight for me, or

Unknown (02:12:29):
I'm like, No,

I'm just not going to believe that overwhelm. I'm
just gonna keep going. It'sokay.

That sounds like something that requires
practice. No, I'm just not gonnabelieve that.

It is it? Oh, God.
Yes, it does. It requires a lotof practice. I remember my, my
first Enneagram teacher, AnneMarie, who's local person here,
who's just an amazing person.
And one of the classes I tookfrom her. She said, You know,
when you get into that placewhere your mind is spinning, and

(02:13:00):
you're all those thoughts thatare going through, like arrows,
and every different direction.
In my head, she said, she said,you're throwing your energy on
the ground. And I'm like, wow, Ihave a choice. I can do back my
thoughts somewhere else. I mean,that had never even occurred to
me, that was years ago, I'mstill practicing it. But that
was that was just anotherexample of it. You know, like

(02:13:21):
those thoughts of overwhelm orlike that those arrows being

Unknown (02:13:25):
shot through. And I could,

I could like, hold it and recognize for what what
it was and have some compassionfor it. And then

Unknown (02:13:34):
and then No,

like to come to a place of trusting in myself that
this is not going to, like putme in bed for three days, I'm
going to keep going. Yeah,

it's funny, my, the, the last person that I had as a
seller before I got out, also aType Six, I have a lot of Type
Six in my life. It's Dana and Iactually were joking about this
the other day, I have so many,so much Type Six around me. And
one of the one of the, I think,kind of epiphanies that he had
was saying it a different way.
But but the same, I think thesame meaning is that I didn't

(02:14:09):
die. You know, this thing that Ithought would kill me didn't
kill me. So and it's like manyof the things that we that we do
and that we learned. It's apractice. It's a it's a thing
that's very difficult today, butI'm going to try and then
tomorrow it's still difficult,but I did a little better. And
then over time, it becomes amuscle that is just stronger.

(02:14:33):
Yeah. And that's that's a goodthing.

Yeah. Somebody, somebody who was in my path to
freedom class last time had thisbeautiful analogy, and I've used
it ever since and I was she haddone a lot of work and someone
asked her well how did you howdid you make that changes? That
was the kind of the topic andand she said it's like you have
two marble jars and the onemarble jar is all full of

(02:14:59):
marbles and That's the hardpart, you know, and every time
you make a little decision, likewhat we're talking about, you
just put one marble into thejar, and it's one marble into
the jar. And I think that's agood description of it.

I love that. That would be a fun podcast title,
one marble into the jar? I havea question. And it's not even a
question. It's just, I just wantto open the floor. Anything that
you'd like to say? Or includehere. Any questions that I did
not ask that you want to answer?
What would you say to thelistener, anybody who might be
considering starting this track,which starts with 91k, into past

(02:15:34):
freedom, which, you know,that's, that's, that's the pre,
that's the first two things,classes that happened before GTP
is even an option, or even a,even a thing they talked about.
But to the to the listener, anyanything, I'll just leave the
give you the last words here andanything that you'd like to say?
Or like, any questions you'dlike to answer that I didn't ask

(02:15:57):
or whatever's whatever's on yourmind? Well,

what popped into my mind was the words from a song
that it's the song is kind ofabout relationships, and that
they're, they're hard, you know,sometimes, but the line is, it's
good work if you can get it toDavid Wilcock, so, but I love

(02:16:23):
that. And that's what I feelabout this. It's good work, if
you can get it. I mean, can you?
Do you have the time to takethese classes? Do you have the
heart to do it? Do you? Do youhave the courage to face
yourself?

Unknown (02:16:36):
Can you and you go all in,

in this process, and it is such good work, and there
is such love? I mean, I guessthat's, that's the other thing I
would say that has always drawnme to EPP is that I've always
seen and felt and even before Iwas a part of each EPP that love
is kind of like the undercurrentof it all. And that's, that's

(02:17:00):
starting with what's right aboutyou. It's it's in its, it's in
everything, you know, that Ithink.

Unknown (02:17:08):
And when

I when I just think about my experience at Shakopee
women's prison. That's which hasbeen an amazing experience. And
we've been haven't been theresince before COVID.

Unknown (02:17:21):
But it's, it's about love the, you know, the people
who

have supported me in my training as a guide and my
ongoing learning as a guide thattimes I've made mistakes. I
mean, it's it's all it's beenlove, you know, it's it's, we're
all we're all trying to withthis vendor or another thought,
you know, with guidance,something I said earlier, the
giving feedback, you know, canbe hard for me and but to, for

(02:17:51):
me to put it in the perspectiveof we're all going towards the
same goal. And it's all for allof us. The purpose of giving
hard feedback is because we careabout our every participant in
every class, and so it's how canwe hold people with love? How

(02:18:13):
can we?

Unknown (02:18:16):
I don't know just share

it's so much more than just sharing information.
And that's part of what's hardabout it. It is sharing the it's
sharing and knowing theinformation, but it's it's
holding ourselves and holdingothers with love and courage in
the heart.

For more information about EPP, please visit
Enneagram prison project.org Weappreciate your time and
attention today. Stay tuned forfuture episodes of the podcast
which you can expect on thefirst Tuesday of every month as
we continue to tell the story ofthe Enneagram Prison Project

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