Episode 21: Guide Training Program | Part 2 - Enneagram Prison Project Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Clay Tumey (00:06):
Hi, my name is Clay Tumey. And this is the Enneagram
Prison Project podcast. In thisepisode, I get to sit down for a
lengthy chat with Djinnaya, whois among many other things, a
recent participant in our guideTraining Program, also known as
GTP. She's also one of ournewest guide apprentices or
apprentice guides, I actuallydon't know which order, those

(00:28):
two words are supposed to go in.
One of them's right, I justdon't know which one it is.
Anyways, I digress. I've gotsome really good news for you
about the podcast. I have somany recorded right now that are
waiting to be edited and will beuploaded. We may even have more
than one per month here for thenext couple of months. Who knows
we'll see conversations withLaura Hooper. Alex Senegal, also

(00:49):
going to hear from Dana andDustin, who recently went to
Belgium going to hear aboutthat, as well as EPP guide
Suzanne and her husband, Mike,who joined us for a graduation
at a class down in SouthernCalifornia, and the prison that
we program at down there. By theway, that was my first time

(01:10):
going into prison. So I'mlooking forward to hearing the
stories from that conversation.
We're glad you're here. Thanksfor listening. This is the
Enneagram Prison Projectpodcast.

Djinnaya Stroud (01:39):
My name is Djinnaya. I am a I worked with
Type Four. I feel like I'll justleave with that. I didn't use to
lead with that in my life, I wasvery resistant to having a type
at all.

Unknown (01:53):
But now

Now I see the usefulness. I'm exposing it
early. I'm many things at EPPI've been a student. And I'm now
moving into being an apprenticeguide. I just finished the guide
training program. I've been abuilder, sort of what we call

(02:16):
our volunteers. Yeah. And then Ihave a whole other life where
I'm many, many

Clay Tumey (02:22):
other things. Well, you can talk about as many of
those things that you'd like Iwant to kind of double click, as
we say, on when talking aboutyour work with Type Four and
being resist resistant to thatearly on. And then and then now
not so much. What What I'mcurious what that was about when
you in being resistant? Whathappens as part of that

(02:42):
influenced by Type Two? Do youthink all folks experienced
that? And what? What was thecatalyst for transitioning into
something different? Where youare? Yes, I am a Type Four. That
is what I work with?

Unknown (02:56):
Well, that's a lot of

questions. I think that the question about
whether being resistant is abouttype. I think it's about people.
And people are often filteredthrough their type, and that
there are some types that aremore like, please tell me what I
am. Please God, tell me what Iam so that I can be that thing
and know what I need to be. Andthen there's some types that are

(03:23):
like, yeah, no, you don't get totell me who I am. But and I do
think that the reactive typeslike 486, that those tend to be
in that space. But my particularkind of approach, you know,
approaching of the Enneagram wasabsolutely by accident. So I was

(03:44):
at Esalen and the end ofFebruary of 2020. That's a
retreat center. Yeah, it's aplace in Big Sur they do. It's a
great hotsprings retreat center.
And they do lots of differentworkshops there, which is how
you go there. And I was therefor a mosaic workshop. I had
recently recovered from a badinjury and I wanted to go think

(04:08):
about what making art meant forme. Gotcha. So there I was. And
there were two other workshops.
One was a grief yoga workshop.
The other workshop was anEnneagram workshop. Okay. Are we
talking 2020? Okay, okay, soit's like the first EPP with us.
Yeah, workshop. Gotcha. And Iwas it was right before the

(04:32):
pandemic. And so we used tostill be able to share rooms at
SLN. So you could get a bunkbed. So I had a bunk bed room
and in that room was Laura, whoyou've spoken to on the podcast.
Yeah. And she and I were thefirst two people in the room
claiming our bunk beds. And Isaid, What are you here for? And
she said, Oh, I'm here for theEnneagram workshop. And I
suppose it was thought it wasEnneagram I didn't know there

(04:55):
was an A. And then I just wroteit. I was like, those people are
going to do their thing. I'mgonna do my thing. But the very
first meal, I ran into Lauraagain, and she said, come sit
with us. We're sitting outside.

Clay Tumey (05:10):
Such a Laura thing today. Absolutely. In a good
way. I mean,

and I really think Laura really moves in the
flow of the universe, and is oneof those people who gathers the
souls that needed to begathered. It's one of her things
she just does by being. And shepulled me into this group of
people. And I loved everybody atthe table, way more than I loved
mosaic or any of the people thatI wasn't connecting with my art

(05:37):
class. Yeah. So we just hungout. And as we hung out,
everybody talked about theirtype. Everybody talked about
what they were learning abouttheir type. And then they said,
Do you have a type? And I said,No. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I
love you all. But that thing,you can't, you can't tell me who

(05:58):
I am. Right? You can't tell mewho I am. And of course, that
button started. Oh, my God, shefeels that way. She could be a
Type Eight. Oh, no. Maybe shewas a Type Four. No, maybe she's
less. And so

Clay Tumey (06:08):
did you hear them?
Kind of? Oh, yeah. It was not.
It was like,

fighting it, you know, which I mean, is, is
kind of that Enneagram at esslynthing, which is another aside,
we're like the most annoyinggroup at SLN. Because we just
sit and talk and less numberCove we sound like one of those
weird late night number radiostations. That's pretty much as
but yeah, so I didn't reallyfall into it. But we had a whole

(06:37):
week. And by the end of theweek, I started listening to the
way that they used to type. Andwhat it became very clear to me
was they weren't trying to tellme who I was. They were asking
me,

Unknown (06:50):
how do we be kind to you? How do we make space for
you?

What is the easiest way for us to connect in
with you? And they were willingto do the rest of the work and
just meet me where I was. Andthat was what ended up
happening. But they weren'ttrying to box me in. They were
trying to connect. Alright.

Clay Tumey (07:13):
That's pretty big.
Yeah, it's a little moreinviting than just bashing you
over head over the head with aquiz or a test or something like
that.

Yeah. So I went home, and the world shut down.
And I took the quiz. And thequiz came back and gave me a set
of types. And I picked the toptwo off the list, which was five
and seven. Okay, that'sinteresting, interesting. And I,

(07:42):
I emailed one of the people Ihad met, and I said, Hey, I've
taken this, this test, and Italked to my family and my
family, my son has decided thatI am a Type Seven. Okay? And she
goes, You are not a Type Seven.
And I was like, Okay, fine, backto the drawing board. So I went
through all of it. And thenafter going back and forth
between those two, I pulled thethird one off the list, which

(08:03):
was Type Four. And I read in theblue book, the wisdom of
Enneagram. I read it, and I gotpartway through.

Unknown (08:15):
And I was offended. I was disturbed. And it

wasn't I was disturbed with what I was
hearing, I was disturbed thatsomebody wrote these words that
somebody said them out loud,because they were so private,
and so shameful for me that tosee them on a written page was

Unknown (08:39):
up ending. And I was all Oh, this is me.

Clay Tumey (08:47):
I've heard it said before people describing their
process and getting close to theway that you described it. But
we were in prison. So the waythat it came out there was felt
like somebody got a hold of myfile. Is it anything like that?
Or like people knew a little bitmore about you than they were
supposed to? Or that you cansend it to them knowing or

(09:09):
anything like that?

Unknown (09:10):
Yeah, it was. I think I do.

Really, I have done a really good job. And I'm
learning to do a less good jobof putting everything together
in a together looking package.
And not being transparent aboutthe parts that are I can create
a character that is like anemulation of the parts that are

(09:37):
rough that I feel people canconnect with. But I'm not
usually forthcoming about thethings that I struggle with that
I really struggled. And so ifyou asked me what I struggle
with, I could give you a wholelist of things. But these things
I was reading, they were thethings I really struggled like
they were really the worst work.

(10:01):
And when you, I was able to readit and see it, sit with it, and
have it reflected back at me. Itwas the first time that I was
able to understand that I wastrying to solve the problems I
was presenting, and not theproblems I actually had. I was
trying to do work that I alreadyknew the beginning in the middle

(10:23):
on the end of and I wasn't doingthe work, I didn't know how to
start.

Clay Tumey (10:30):
I want to stay there and ask more questions. I also
want to take a quick aside hereand ask. So the Type Seven thing
the Type Five thing, were youable to make sense of that
later? Why did those show up onthe test or the quiz the
questionnaire? Why did thoseshow up so so much?

Well, a Type Seven is easy. For me. I I've
often said if you can retake meas a Type Seven, I'm there for
it, I would love to put on thatmantle and run around, I like
intensity a lot, which is TypeFour thing. I'm also a sexual
for so intensity is, is my jamfrom all directions. And so

(11:11):
experience for me is a necessarypart of life. And as we know
about kind of the the socialinstincts, this other dimension
of the type. It's where we leak,right, it's where we drop our
energy. And so for me to dothat, I seek an intensity, I

(11:33):
seek a new experience, I seekJoy, I seek all this stuff, and
and I expend my energy therethat I should be using for
myself. And that feels a lotlike a Type Seven, in its own
way. Like it feels a lot in thisType Seven thing of, you know,
always looking for the next newthing. Also the Type Seven on

(11:57):
the Type Four, we're all on thisharmony triangle of the
idealist. So it's Type Four,Type Seven and Type One. And I
like to say Westworld has thisline, I choose to see the beauty
in the world. And I'm like,That's the idealist triangle.
Like we're all sitting therebeing like, I choose to see the

(12:17):
beauty in the world. And Ichoose to see that it's not
quite here yet. And so we'realways reaching. And no, I have
that in common with Type Seven.
And I can tell you a whole otherthing about how important I
think fours and sevens are foreach other. But that doesn't
answer your question aboutsevens and fives have a really
strong five wing, I like to sayI have a really nerdy five wing.

(12:37):
Okay. I would have never thoughtI know it's so shocking. It
doesn't show up about me at all.
But you know, Type Five and TypeFour were both withdrawn types,
we turn our energy inward. Andwe keep this very intense

(12:58):
internal life. And it can behard for fours and fives and
nines. But I think especiallyfours and fives stuck at the
bottom of the Enneagram likedown here and let lead depths
like we have this place that weget into and letting people in
there or coming back out ofthere can be really hard. And

(13:23):
fives get lost in this world ofthe mind on the inside. And
fours get lost in this world ofthe heart on the inside. But we
think with our hearts, and wefeel with our minds.
Interesting. And so like we cando those things. Right. And so
it's very easy to confuse thatexperience. And I think I still

(13:45):
have a moment. Are you like, Areyou sure? I'm not a five?
Except, of course, you know, I'mmarried to a five. Right? And so
every time that I say, Are yousure I'm not a five? Because no,
you're not a five?

Clay Tumey (13:56):
Right? There's there's some clear differences
that show up in ways that areunavoidable sometimes. And I
actually I'd like to talk to himone of these days, you mentioned
to you talking about thewithdrawn energy and going in
with five and four and also nineshares a shares that with us,
and a question popped into myhead, and then we'll put you on

(14:18):
the spot ask a question. I don'teven know the answer to this.
But I'm curious. If you if youlike what is the difference when
when people talk about withdrawntypes and where we withdraw our
energy goes in? And all thedescriptions that are that or
what we learn when we studyEnneagram types and all that
stuff. What's the differencebetween that kind of withdrawn
and when the world talks aboutus being introverted? Or you're

(14:42):
an introvert or this that andthe other? Are those? Do you see
those as the same? Or are theydifferent and what else comes up

Unknown (14:49):
for you on that? I think they're very different.
Yeah, I

think that's like common Miskin. perception,
right? Because whether you'reintroverted or extroverted, that
is, that is how you areinteracting with the world on an
action level, right?

Clay Tumey (15:13):
That's such a smart way to put it on an action
level, like what happens in themoment.

But what you're doing with your energy can be
very different. Like, I thinkI'm an extroverted withdrawn
type. Yeah. You know, I I can befun at a party if I need to be I
will talk about something that'sreally off color if you've let
me talk long enough, but I willbe really fun while I do it.
Yeah, I'm an extrovert. But I,my energy pulls back. There is a

(15:43):
whole part of me that is inside,but is watching that unfold. And
it takes me longer to bring thatpart of me forward to meet the
extra.

Clay Tumey (15:57):
That's a good I'm still in that. I'm memorizing
that. And I'm telling people Iget so I get so twisted. Hearing
folks use them interchangeably,withdrawn and introverted. I
don't I don't think I'm anintrovert. I certainly don't
think I'm an extrovert. But thecircumstances kind of change how
I roll. Or like the way the waythat I heard is the action level

(16:20):
is like, there's no constantthing. Like I'm a withdrawn
type. But sometimes I get outthere sometimes I get on stage,
sometimes I do a podcast. Yeah.
Right. And sometimes I go hidein the closet and just do
something else. And the wholeidea of of introverted and
withdrawn being synonymous, itjust drives me bonkers. Thanks
for talking through that. Youdid. I struggle with that. Okay,

(16:42):
so going back to you, you'vefound your type you've. And I'm
just gonna say out loud, thatI'm a little blown away by how
recently, your journey started,I just assumed in all of our
interactions on Zoom, anddifferent classes, this and the
other, I assume that you hadbeen around the work for several

(17:04):
years, and then recently cameinto the EPP space, I didn't
realize that at the beginning of2020 2020. To understand again,
I didn't realize at thebeginning of 2020, the Enneagram
was not part of your life. Bythe end of it, it was Yeah. And
that's I'm blown away forseveral reasons that we'll
eventually get into, I'm sure.

(17:26):
But I just That's wild to me,that's impressive. I feel I I
experienced you as an as a, as aas a longtime Enneagram
steadier, you just have thatkind of you exude intelligence
and wisdom in that. So, so goingback to you found your type, you
you know where you are, and someother things are starting to

(17:49):
make sense. What are the nextsteps for you in terms of your
Enneagram work personally oreven getting involved with EPP
any anything around that wasworth sharing.

So one of the people that I met at SLN,
Meredith sent me an email andsaid, Hey, so EPP is doing this
thing. And it's called Nineprisons one key it's kind of a
trial, they're trying it out,they invited me to do it. I
don't have time. I thought youmight

Unknown (18:23):
be interested. And I said, sure.

But before that, sure, there was a lot of
like, No, thank you. I don'thave time to do this. I have the
stuff that's going on, you know,I don't really know what to do
by line was like, Sure. And itwas it was before we moved to
the donation based tuitionmodel. So there was also a
matter of me trying to figureout the finances of everything
to pay for the class. And Ishowed up, actually, no backup,

Unknown (18:57):
registered for the class.

I thought I knew why I was taking the class.
And it was to learn more aboutmyself to try and figure out why
I was creating so much sufferingin my life. But about a week
before I started the class, Ihad a huge falling out with my
youngest child.

Unknown (19:18):
And and he left

my house. My adult child lives in the house
and I said something so hurtful.
On top of so many things, I'dsay that were so hurtful, that
he chose to leave the house andgo into the beginning of the
pandemic with no place to stay.
Because he didn't feel safe withme. And it took me a really long

(19:44):
time to sit with that tounderstand that any story I
could tell myself about how whatI had said was okay, or how he
misunderstood didn't matter. Inthe moment what mattered was
that something was broken. Andit needed to be fixed. And I
couldn't fix it. Until Iunderstood why, like, why? You

(20:07):
know why I did what I did, like,what was I doing? Who was in the
driver's seat. So by the time westarted nine prisons, one key, I
knew why I was in that class.
And it was no longer to sort ofunderstand out understand why I
was suffering, but to understandthe entire ecosystem of who I
was in my life, and my familyand my community, and how I

(20:30):
could be more present in thatspace. So I went to my very
first IP 1k class, the pilot, soit's very different. We're all
in one room, I think we had liketwo cohorts split up. And I
cried the whole time, and camedownstairs, where Jason's office

(20:51):
was my husband. I sat down thechair, and he says,

Unknown (20:58):
You look weird. And I

think I joined a cult. Should I be
conservative? Absolutely not. Soit was just it was so wasn't the
sort of thing that I did. Andyet I knew I was all the way and
like, I knew I wasn't. And Iwent through the nine prisons
when key and I finish it, and Isaid, it'd be like, I have a

(21:22):
superpower. Like I, I understandso much more about what I'm
doing, why I'm doing it, I'dhave this. You know, this magic
second that we talked about,between what happens to you and
how you respond. I learned torespond. For the first time in
my life. Somebody said, you canrespond. You don't have to

(21:42):
react, take a breath, take aminute, take 20 breaths. And it
changed everything for me. And Iremember in the debrief, like
the last class, we unpacked, Isaid, you know, I feel like I
have this superpower. And I knowI'm gonna walk away from this
class, and this superpower isgonna go away. And Susan

(22:03):
interrupted me and said,

Clay Tumey (22:05):
a lot of it. Yeah.
Such as Susan question, by theway. So I hear it. Yeah. But
what if,

what if? And so I just knew I was like, Okay,
well, I'm in. I don't know whatwe're doing. I'm in. Yeah, you
know. So I don't know, if youwant to volunteer anything.
There's an email. Yeah. So Iemailed on the website, nobody
responded. Within five days, Iwent and tracked people down,
emailed them there directly.

Clay Tumey (22:34):
We're getting better at that. But slightly,
absolutely. This was

also remember, this is the beginning of the
pandemic, by this point. This islike, May of 2020. Nobody's paid
their taxes. Nobody knows whatto do. Everybody's convinced
that the world's gonna open upin about two months, like,
everything.

Clay Tumey (22:50):
So it's adorable as bless our heart was our heart.
That's just wow.

So it was, you know, but I knew I can't, I have
to be part of this thing. I feellike this is going to be a very
long story.

Clay Tumey (23:07):
I have, I'll tell you, I have 25 hours left, on my
desk here. So.

So there's this other piece of this. That's an
important part of this journey,which is I didn't walk away from
EPP and say, Okay, well, now I'mgonna go take classes in the
narrative tradition, or now I'mgonna go take a workshop with us
or now I'm going to do this, Ivery clearly wanted to stay with
EPP. And that goes back to me asa young bright eyed Community

(23:42):
College student majoring inpsychology and and I was really
interested in the time about whyour prison system worked the way
it was, works, doesn't work thesales the way it does, and what

(24:03):
the history was behind that. Andso it was really studying like
the history behind that andtrying to understand these
things and I was really involvedin anti death penalty work and
activism. And one of the thingsthat people ask you whenever you
do work against the deathpenalty is well what if somebody

(24:25):
murdered one of your child?
Wouldn't you want this wouldn'tthis be what you want? And I
said, no.

Clay Tumey (24:36):
You're taking this argument by the way, I'm just
saying it out loud is so fuckingridiculous it is to even to ask
Does that

question like how would I even know what I was
gonna like? Stuff like

Clay Tumey (24:49):
that up that question. So have a conversation
but that question, okay, I thinkI've said enough.

So I would say now And you can see that the
other person was like, Yeah,whatever, right. But one time I
said now on somebody said, Well,what would you want?

Unknown (25:07):
Right? A much better question, I think.

And I thought about it. And I thought about
it, because I can't just give aquick response to anything. I
just said something on the tapeto you.

Clay Tumey (25:19):
I mean, it adds to the texture of what people
experienced, while they're, youknow, listening but.

Unknown (25:25):
And I said, I would want them to understand. Now, I

want to look in the eyes of somebody and see
them die. I want to look in theeyes of someone and see that
they understand what the effectof their actions was, I want to
understand, I want to see thatthey understand why they did
what they did, I want to saythat whatever made them do that
is something that they've healedfrom, and that they've healed

(25:57):
from what they've done. Becausethat would be part of my
healing. And I really wanted todo that work. When I was young
and bright eyed, I really wantedto go and do that work. But you
know what, it's hard. It's hardto get into the system,
California had at the time, thisis in the 90s had this very

(26:19):
clear, punishment based penalsystem in the adult code. And
then in the juvenile code, youhad a lot of programming and
things like that, but, but wealso decided within nine days
that we were no longer going totry juveniles as juveniles,
which is bizarre, and I gotfrustrated, and I gave up, quite

(26:40):
honestly. And I went on with mylife. And when I heard Susan
talk about the work that she wasdoing, and when I heard her talk
about her first time in Texas,and sort of the way that she
just kept trying to do thisthing. There was a feeling

(27:00):
inside a very complex feelinginside of me, one of which is
shame of like, what the helltonight you couldn't just go and
do the thing. And you know,honestly, no, I could not have,
but also this gratitude thatsomebody else was doing this
thing I had imagined. And sowhen I signed up to be what we

(27:20):
now call a builder, it wasbecause I wanted to figure out
how do I support the people thatare doing that work? Because I
want that

Unknown (27:26):
work, tap? You have skills to

Clay Tumey (27:29):
like you do? Like, like tech likes beyond the like
normal skills, like tech skills,and you can do your you have
things to bring to the table.

Yeah, yeah. And I, I have continued to show up
for EPP when I can and be like,This is my basket of tools.
Yeah. What do you need? You wantto talk product strategy? I'm
here. Like, you want to talkwebsites? I'm here. So. So yeah,
that's kind of where I thoughtthat story was gonna end.

Clay Tumey (28:02):
Thanks for sharing all that. And there's a lot more
to cover to eventually. So afternine p 1k. So for the curious
who might not know who arelistening, nine p 1k. Is our I
don't know if it's going to beavailable? I don't know, I don't
know where it's going to be inthe future. But where it has
been recently, last coupleyears. It's kind of our entry
level program. That's where it'snine prisons, one keep talking

(28:23):
to the types. I won't call itbasic, but I will call it
fundamental, is that fair?
Elementary. And then after thatis another class called path to
freedom. And they have to betaken in that order. You can't
take path to freedom first, andthen I'm doing okay. It's just
not how it works. Yeah. So youeventually took past freedom.
Okay. And then after that, if,well, we'll get to that, that

(28:46):
later was path of freedom, likefor you.

I take path to freedom twice. Okay. The first
time, it was a lot of things,you know, nine prisons, one key
is very, it's the one is, thisis your time, this is how it
works. These are the lines inbetween, you know, four goes to
one goes to this goes here, youknow. And when you get into path

(29:12):
to freedom, all of a sudden,you're talking about the triads
and you're talking about trauma,and you're talking about all
this stuff that I didn't want totalk about, right? Quite
honestly.

Clay Tumey (29:25):
It leaves Enneagram type descriptions. And it goes
to what happened engineers life.
Yeah, yeah. That's super fun forsome people.

Yeah, not at all. And so I started with my
resistance, pretty much rightoff the bat. And by the time
that we got to the point wherenormally if I were on the
inside, they would have me writea bio on for a path to freedom
where you write a timeline, andI sat and stared at that piece

(29:55):
of paper for so long. And I cameinto my pod group which
blessedly, it was full ofwonderful humans because we all
went around and

Clay Tumey (30:04):
shared. Shout out to wonderful humans. Yes.

Sharon shared how our experience was going
with the homework of the week.
And everybody said, oh, youknow, this is my process. And
this was my process, and got tome, and I held up that piece of
paper, and I have said, Fuckthis shit.

Unknown (30:20):
I'm out.

I don't want to talk about this. I don't want to
talk about my childhood trauma.
I've been to therapy, I don'twant to talk about it. I'm not
that person anymore. And it wasso hard for me. And Cynthia,
who's a fantastic guide really?

(30:43):
Kind of talked me down off thewall. So she the pod guide and
your group know, she was sayingmy path to freedom group. Okay.
Yeah. So she okay, this is like,but we didn't have fun guides.
We were just we were just lefton the wall Wilds on our own.
And, yeah, so she, she helpedtalk me down. And I managed to
get five things on my timeline.
It was really hard. And itwasn't until after path of

(31:09):
freedom that I took thattimeline, and did a lot of work
with my therapist. And we, I putit in a spreadsheet because I am
the nerd that I am. And thatlets you stick lines. And in
between. I started unlocking alot of the kind of fugue state
stuff, a lot of things I can'tremember and to talk about very

(31:30):
well. And eventually it was107 178 lines. Wow. And then I
knew I was ready to do it allagain.

Clay Tumey (31:50):
What's that feeling?
Because as I know, I have anidea of like, pushing through
things and feel like I know whatI feel like in those moments.
But I if I dig my heels, likeyou said, Fuck this shit, I'm
out. Like, that's the story ofmy life for like the first 30
years of my life. And then stillsome since then, like, I'm so
familiar with the fuck thatshit. I'm out. And that is like,

(32:11):
my happy place sometimes like,and unfortunately for me, I
think a lot of times when Ireally get there, it's a it's a
permanent thing. When I'm out,I'm super out and there's no
coming back. That hasn't alwaysbeen true. There are times when
it hasn't been true. But for themost part, that's just what's
comfortable for me. So for I'mcurious for you, what's it like?

(32:33):
When you're at a point down theline, where did the thing that
you said no? And then thatturned into okay, I'm here? What
is it? What's that experience?
Like? I mean, in terms of reallyanything? I mean, is it is it?
Is there a sense of pride? LikeI got over that? Or is it a
sense of like, release that,okay, I don't have to fight that

(32:57):
or whatever anymore? Is there?
Is any of that experienceringing true for you or not so
much? Well,

I mean, I can only talk about my experience, I
think everybody's experience onthis one is different. For me,
it's an unfolding. You know, wetalk a lot about just sitting
with the discomfort.

Unknown (33:17):
And I don't feel

any pride at having gotten there, right. I
don't feel relief at havinggotten there. I just got there.
I just sat with the discomfortlong enough that I was there.

Unknown (33:35):
And there's a cost

to that resistance, you know, when we
when that resistance comes upfor me.

Unknown (33:48):
I'm protecting myself,

you know, I was protecting myself from grief, I
didn't know how to process I wasprotecting myself from grief
that I felt

Unknown (34:00):
was going to make me unlovable and

and that's a reasonable thing for me to do.
But there's a cost to that,which is like grief is still
there. And it's it's stillcontrolling me. And for me that
the cost was the cost was I'mnot doing that was too high. And
I knew it. You know, like I hadto have that time I had to have
that reaction in the moment Ihad to like vent a thing. But

(34:30):
when it was done when myreactivity was done, I knew the
cost of not sitting with thisdiscomfort is too high.

Clay Tumey (34:39):
So path to freedom round two, path to freedom Round

Unknown (34:42):
Two was different.

Clay Tumey (34:48):
How much time had passed by the way? Oh no. I
remember maybe nine months ayear or something like that.

It was probably about nine months. You know this
whole last few years. It's hardto do the timeline. I should
have looked at before,

Clay Tumey (35:01):
to me on the calendar from like the beginning
of 2020 until the end of 2022 isbasically one year.

So I think I think that I mean, I did put the
freedom really early and thecreation of paths of freedom. So
I have a feeling it was eitherthe end of 2020 or the beginning
of 2021. And I did path tofreedom part two, in 2022. Okay.
I know that. I think I think Iknow that

Clay Tumey (35:29):
for the listener who can't see what I just saw a
question where it just popped upright in front of me. Literally,
literally. Yeah, that was thethat was the punctuated phase of
maybe.

So yeah, but I mean, a lot of things. A lot of
things happened in that periodof time. I continued doing my
work. I continued studying on myown. I kept a really steady
presence practice. I, I went toback to epsilon, and did the
part two of the workshop thateverybody had been there. Oh,

(36:02):
and I'm one of the EPP weirdos.
I was one of the EPP where yes.
So I had I had graduated tobeing an APB, were now instead
of just an EPP group. And, yeah,so at the at that retreat, that
was the first time that wetalked about guiding, which, of

(36:24):
course, is a lighter topic, butyeah, Laura and Rick brought it
up while we were talking, youknow, do you think

Clay Tumey (36:30):
about Type Seven?
And is she talking about Laura'sType Seven mirror that mirror
the Type Seven. Rick now TypeSix? Oh, no different

Meredith? Okay.
Yeah. Meredith Type Four. Andwhen I went through a path of
freedom, it felt like everybodythere was on the guide track in
a way that I hadn't realized Iwas on, you know, everybody, all
of a sudden, was a professionallife coach, or a therapist or
this and I was just doing mywork and being a part of this
thing I hadn't, I don't thinkI'd realized I was on a track,
right. So I said not yet. Andpart of that was that when I got

(37:00):
to the end, a path of freedomthat seemed the direction that
everyone was going, and I knewthat if I went to that note,
neck, if I went to that nextdirection, it would be because I
want it to be that. And let thatwas not the right place to be.
That was not my I should becomea guy, not because I want to be

(37:22):
somebody else. Hello. Butinstead, because I had something
to offer was

Clay Tumey (37:38):
hope nobody's in jail. I can't hear what they're
saying where the call is comingfrom, but that's fine. That'll
be done soon. There we go. Allright. Speaking of imperfection.

Okay, where was I? Oh, so I was like, you know,
my wanting to be whatever I'veimagined as a guide is not a
good reason for me to be a gut.
Yeah. And said, I really foundit on this whole timeline thing,
y'all, I gotta go back and do itagain. So I went back and did it
again. And I was differentperson approaching it. For me,

(38:09):
girth is a spiral. So you comeback to the same place, but
you're a different person whenyou get there.

Unknown (38:17):
And

it was good.
Material landed differently. Iwas at a very different place in
my life. And at the end of path,a freedom of time. I was ready.
And I knew I was ready. And Iknew I was ready, because I
didn't have anything I wanted tobe next. Yeah. And I knew I was

(38:39):
ready because that growth is aspiral, you come back around.
But if you don't take the timeto share what you're learning,
if you don't take the time tocome from the withdrawn and out
into the world to offer somebodyelse a hand around that circle.

(39:03):
You just get stuck in a circle.
And just as natural asbreathing. It was time for me to
do something else. And I justdecided

Unknown (39:19):
that's where I am with this work now. I just take next
steps

Clay Tumey (39:34):
Hey, y'all, it's clay and we will get back to the
conversation here in just a fewminutes. But first, we're gonna
pause and share a few words ofappreciation for EPP program
manager Riley Brown, it's hardto imagine the things that would
go haywire if Riley were notinvolved. She's incredibly
competent on all the back endthings that you probably don't

(39:58):
ever see. If you've Take any ofour online programming or really
anything, I mean, there's achance that you've crossed
paths, whether you realize it ornot with Riley, I really enjoy
chatting with her. Anytimethere's been an issue where I've
had to ask her a question, Ijust just just the kind of
person who can take directcommunication and give it right
back to me in a way that Iunderstand it. And also, like I

(40:20):
said, just incredibly competent.
And we're a better organizationbecause of her. Also, as you may
notice, we have been superactive here recently on social
media. Recently, this has been athing we're on Facebook, I
believe. We're also on Tik Tok.
And we're also on Instagram, ofcourse. And all of that activity

(40:41):
is because of Riley. Yes,there's a few people doing a few
things. But Riley is carryingthe bulk of that. And it's just
really nice to have a personlike that, again, who is so
competent and so willing to dothe work without really getting
a whole lot of public praise forthat. And so that's what I'm
here doing now. I'm just here totell you how flippin awesome I

(41:04):
think Riley Brown is. And it'snot just me. Here are a few
other folks from the project.

Susanne Gawreluk (41:10):
Riley Brown is kind proficient, efficient, a
delight to work with extremelypatient. My favorite lines Riley
is Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait,wait, let's back up because she
has a mastermind. When it comesto anything tech zone. Google
was the matrix markup IO slack,whatever it is. If she doesn't

(41:30):
know she finds out, she's alwayswilling to center us and just
beautifully brings us back toour breath in our presence, so
that we can get shit done. Sheis just stellar and has a cute
cat that walks across theirkeyboard. Thank you Riley for
just being you. We appreciateyou so much at EPP you are a

(41:54):
gem.

Laura Hooper (41:55):
Riley is such a support. She's incredibly
conscientious. Whether you'resomeone inside of EPP or someone
reaching out, just for somequestions on you know,
potentially being part of theproject. She is just
exceptional. She can drop into ameeting, invite us all into
presence, and then quickly moveinto all the details for things

(42:16):
that really need to happen tomake programs work. She has such
huge capacity to hold all thedifferent pieces and how they
relate to one another. I'm sograteful she's here. And I love
that she shares her heart, herheart with the project in the
ways that she does. Thanks forbeing you, Riley.

Jason White (42:38):
I appreciate Riley so much. She is able to hold the
big picture and hold it andinclude everyone in it and keep
us going keep us on task in acheerful open, kind way. And she
is able to get right down intothe details and perfectly happy

(42:58):
spending all day doing ourrepetitive tasks. If it's
meaningful and contributing tothe whole, she is transparent,
she is courageous. She iswilling to she's curious, she is
willing to jump into nearlyanything that is significant and

(43:19):
meaningful. And give it a try.
And I'm so glad that I have metRiley that EPP has found her and
that she has found us.

Jan Shegda (43:30):
Oh my goodness, Riley Brown, I have had such a
great pleasure working withRiley this last year. And
unfortunately a lot of timesthat means throwing her last
second requests, which shealways handles with grace and
with competence and theseemingly magical ability to get
everything done. Even under verytight deadlines. I've also

(43:52):
really enjoyed working withRiley in meetings where there
may be some kind of mean crisismight be a large word, but some
kind of mini issue that wereally need to deal with. And
she brings such a calminggrounding presence and a really
focused project managementapproach where she just says,
Okay, well, what are our goalshere? What do we need to tackle

(44:13):
first? And it's it's reallysystematized and professional
and competent. And I totallylook to Riley for those things.
And I just absolutely loveworking with her and think she's
such a valuable resource herearound EPP. Yeah, I would almost

(44:33):
tell everybody anytime you havesomething you need help with ask
Riley. I don't want her to betotally flooded with more
requests. Selfishly I like beingable to do that myself but rally
if you're listening, you'reamazing. So great to work with
and really appreciate all yourgifts.

Jodi Norton (44:53):
Riley. Oh my goodness. I am so grateful for
Riley since she he kind of cameon the scene, she has been an
enormous and enormous support toEPP to myself to the public
programs to the French team, youname it. Riley's been involved
in so many things and has reallyhad a huge impact. So yeah, I am

(45:19):
just delighted to work with her.
And you know, I just appreciateher. She's very smart, and very
resourceful. She's not afraid tojust jump in and figure it out.
And I just really appreciatethat about her. And she's fun to
work with to, you know, sinceshe's kind of taken over the

(45:42):
implementation group. She justbrings so much lightness and fun
and, and efficiency, of course,but yeah, it's just been really
fun. Having her there and beinga part of that, and, and taking
the lead. So yeah, I really loveworking with her and really
appreciate her so much.

Clay Tumey (46:17):
So, part of something you said a minute ago
that I'd like to know moreabout, because you're talking
about, you had your own, youdidn't have aspirations of
guiding, right? You were doingyour work you were you were
doing your studying, and allthis stuff on your own. And a
lot of folks who listen, our EPPpeeps, like there are folks who

(46:39):
are familiar. And then they knowwhat goes down in this and the
other. There are folks wholisten to the podcast, who they
listen from the safety of theirhomes, so that they can learn a
little bit more about theEnneagram. And not so much. I
mean, there's obviouslysomething to learn about EPP
too. But this is what I've, whatI've come to learn is that this
is a lot of people's first step.
So I think for that person, it'slikely that they may be hearing

(47:03):
you talk about your own processyour own studying your own, like
the things that you were doing,aside from class, and in, maybe
are asking themselves like, howdo I do that? Or maybe would
want to ask you, what could I dowhat? So I guess the question is
all that to say, what what kindof things? What would you say to
someone who is on their journeytrying to find answers? They're

(47:25):
curious, they're open, but theyalso don't want to go do a whole
last class. And they want to,they want to know, where can I
find answers from the safety ofmy house, from my computer, or
my phone or whatever, without,without the risk of getting hurt
by being on panel and all theother big stuff that comes with
getting out there in the world.
So what would you say to thosefolks?

Well, it's a tricky question. Because the
first thing I would say is,there's all kinds of
opportunities to do that. Thewisdom of the Enneagram is an
incredible book, you can readit, you can watch videos to go
with it. The back of that bookhas lots of exercises, you can
do

Clay Tumey (48:08):
Read it and weep.

I mean, you can you can cry, you can go to
therapy, and like you can find atherapist who's Linda Enneagram
and do that there. But But yeah,there's a lot of exercises in
that book. You can, you know,there's so many classes online
where you don't have to showyour face.

Unknown (48:28):
And that's eventually not going to be enough.

You know, we say, it's not just difficult to
do the work alone, it'simpossible. And that's true. So
when I talk about that spiral ofgrowth, right, you can you can
do that studying by yourself,but soon you're just walking in
a circle. And then at thatpoint, you have to find other
people to walk that circle withyou to reflect back to let the

(48:59):
understanding not just be aboutyour understanding, but their
understanding. And then you moveup that circle a little bit
further, you move up the spiral,

Clay Tumey (49:10):
like the visual of walking, the visual of walking
that circle, and at some point,you're going to have to find
some somebody to walk the circlewith you or maybe even hop in
there. Shargel. Yeah. At somepoint, yeah, I like that.
Thanks. That's a it's an oddquestion. I admit it's one that
has, like, there's no magicanswer for some random folks.
Just listening to the podcast.
Yeah. So Thanks for Thanks forgoing there. So GTP the next

(49:32):
step along the way here. Nextstep. Yeah. And if I can only
I've been through all of ourprograms, I've gone through it
from a different angle, becauseI'm usually an ambassador in the
room. So I'm very familiar withthe curriculum, what's the
process all this stuff, but I'malso not a participant. So I've
gone through it. I've only seenit from my side. That's, that's

(49:53):
true with why I've gone through990 1k and I've gone through
past freedom enough to get it alittle bit. But with the guy
training program, I have noexperience other than my own. So
I'm, I want to know everythingabout the guy training program,
what it's like to go through, asa participant talked on the

(50:13):
previous episode with PODguides, who've also done both
because they've gone throughGTP, obviously, because now
they're guides. And then nowthey've gone through as a pod
guide. So I'm just I'm justcurious, in general, what what
it's like, even the applicationprocess, I actually don't know.
Like, how everything quite worksand and how are you chosen? Is

(50:35):
it? Is it a? Is it a lottery? Isit just showing that you are the
one that they want? And thenwhat is the class like?

Unknown (50:47):
Okay, small question.

No question.
Just a tiny little one that Ican wrap up real fast. Yeah.
Okay. Great. Cool. So theapplication process is pretty
extensive, you have to answer alot of questions about where you
were in your process, where youare in your growth, where you
think you're gonna be what sortof support you have, what sort

(51:09):
of ability you're gonna have togive back on the other side of
this? Yeah, and I can't speak tohow they make the decisions.
Because I was not in that room.
Yeah. Thankfully, that wouldhave been really weird. I've
heard is not super fun. I betit's not super fun.

Unknown (51:30):
I

I realized after I sent my application that
if it had been an admissionsletter, it would have been dear
Admissions Board. Yeah, here aresome reasons why you should
probably not. Perhaps you shouldtell me not right now. Thank you
very much your for yourconsideration. Well, Jeanette,
that was pretty much it. Yeah. Iknew it was a it was not a great

(51:56):
time for me to do it. I wasgoing through some really major
life transitions. In July, my,my children both moved out, and
we moved out of the home we'velived in for, I don't know, 18
years. So. So I was goingthrough a lot of changes and
thought, well, it's a terribletime for me to take on this big

(52:18):
process. And then I gotaccepted. And I said, Oh, yes,
yeah, I guess this is what we'redoing now. And, you know, in
sort of true style in my life, Igot a letter and I waited about
a day and a half before I toldJason and he said, Oh my gosh,

(52:41):
you must be so happy. You mustbe so honored. I'm like,

Clay Tumey (52:46):
Yeah,

I told them. I told them not to take me.

Clay Tumey (52:52):
I gave him a list of why they shouldn't accept

any reason.
Yeah, so but but I knew it wasonce again, it's like, it's just
the next step. Like, the nextstep shows up when you're ready.
And that was the time. So Istarted the class.
I don't know how to explain whatthat experience is like, in any

(53:15):
way that's succinct. It's verydifferent than the other
classes. The other classes are.

Unknown (53:22):
about

exploring yourself, they are about being
supported, and the work. Theyare not. They're challenging.
But they're not a constantchallenge. Part of freedom and
nine prisons one key, theychallenge you, and then they
kind of pull back and supportyou. Guide training programs.

(53:47):
Here's the challenge. Great, wesaw what was really challenging
about that challenge for you.
We'd like you were to do more ofthat, please. Yeah.

Clay Tumey (53:57):
And there is support to be clear.

It's a really a supportive environment. It just
what what we're doing is we'retransmuting ourselves from what
we were doing to be ready tosupport people who are doing
that,

Clay Tumey (54:14):
which is a whole different angle. It's a whole
different process. It's a wholedifferent everything. Yeah,
really. Yeah. So you'relearning. Like, how to actually
don't remember the first fewweeks I know that once it starts
to get to the practicums whereyou're actually doing like these

(54:34):
practice teachings and thengetting feedback and all that
stuff. That's where that's thoseare some of my Dare I say
favorite memories as as a as aas an ambassador, being part of
that and all that stuff. I wouldimagine some of that stuff.
Probably not super fun on theparticipant side, but I don't I
can't really speak to that. Iknow there's there's there is

(54:56):
work in there, but there's alsoa lot of actual, like
curriculum. I mean, there's alot of self work but There's
also like curriculum, this iswhat we do. This is how you do
it. Can you do it? And then youhave to demonstrate. Yeah. And
then you you are literallyteaching to us, in this case, a
screen full of folks, you know,because mostly on Zoom, it's all
on Zoom actually. Yeah. And whatwas that? Like? I mean, your or

(55:18):
what do you remember what yourfirst what your first practicum
was? Was on

my first practicum? I think the first
practicum we did, they changedit partway through. And I know
you're decided not to talk tosomebody who went through the
program right after the program.
But I gotta tell you, a lot hashappened in between time. I
don't know how accurately all ofthis is. But I think that the

(55:43):
first thing that we had do thatwas practicum, that we were
given a pass redo was the touraround the Enneagram. And, like,
everything that we have to do inthe practicum is really
condensed, they basically theytime condensing it, 10 minutes
to do a 15 minute lesson, youget 10 minutes to do a 15 minute
lesson. Yeah. And I remembergetting ready for it, and seeing

(56:08):
how fast I could talk. Yeah,

Clay Tumey (56:12):
like an auctioneer.

And just walking around on the house
trying to, to get it in thetime, you know, walking up and
down the hallway saying it 11minutes and 20 seconds, 10
minutes and 45 seconds, youknow, trying to get it down into
this way. And I practice so muchthat I lost my voice. And I

(56:37):
thought I wasn't physicallyphysically lost my voice. And I
thought I was not going to beable to speak for the practicum
the next day. And I sat down andsaid, This is ridiculous. What
am I doing to myself, it doesn'tmatter. Like I have to know this
work. But I don't have to beperfect at this right now. And
so I came in to do the thing.
And I think I said, You knowwhat, the shortest time I've

(57:00):
managed to get this down to is10 minutes and 35 seconds. We'll
see how it goes. Stop me if youneed. Yeah. And I just went. And
once I went. And once I'd let goof that idea that I had to hit
some ideal.

Unknown (57:18):
It was beautiful.

You know, I and I it wasn't the best tour around
my Enneagram that has ever beendone. But the experience of
feeling what I knew inside of mecome outside of me and be

Unknown (57:32):
heard was so

right. There was just something about it that
felt so right.

Clay Tumey (57:42):
The D remember, do you remember any of the feedback
you got from that? And toexplain the process? Well? Well,
I think about it to the folkswho don't know, the way that it
works is you have we'll say sixpeople in a breakout room. And
you have the participants saythere's three participants, and

(58:03):
then there's a PI guide, andthen typically an ambassador,
maybe a witness or somethinglike that. So there's five or
six folks, you do your around atrip around the Enneagram. And
then you answer the questionafterwards. How do you felt you
did? What's something? You know,how do you feel? What did you
do? Well, what's something youwould do differently? And that's

(58:24):
kind of what I call the feedbacksandwich of how we roll. And
then in the podcast, we'll saythis, this is something that I
thought you did well. And here'ssomething that I think you could
improve for next time. And it'salways something for each it's
never like, Well, that was allgood. No recommendations,
because that's not goodfeedback. And it's also never,
hey, the whole thing sucked. Andyou didn't do anything good.

(58:45):
Like that's, that's also notokay. And typically the pod
guide, and then if there's anambassador, and then it's opened
up often to the other folks whoare in the room. If there's if
there's still time left. Do youremember any of that those early
feedback sessions?

I do. But they all kind of blend together. I
remember each time that I wasasked to say how I did, having
to stop myself and not startwith what I did wrong. To
actually say, you know, thequestion is, how was that for

(59:28):
you? Yes. The question is nothow did you do? The question is
not what did you fuck up? Thequestion is not what did you
miss? The question was, how wasthat for you? And so learning to
answer that question, to startwith presence to check in and
say,

Unknown (59:41):
How was that for was a great learning process of
itself.

Then I remember that the feedback was really
helpful. Because it lets me knowthat my instincts were right.
Yeah. Because when I would losewhose presence when I would
gloss over something when Iwould get distracted. Somebody
always noticed and always calledit out. And it was always that

(01:00:09):
thing. It wasn't the mistakesthat I thought I'd made. It
wasn't the failure to hit someimaginary mark that got noticed.
Because those imaginary marksaren't things other people have
in their mind. It was mypresence. And so that became the
work that mean, that's thebeauty of that kind of feedback
is the work became

Unknown (01:00:31):
how do I stay here?

Djinnaya Stroud (01:00:33):
How do I be real with you? How do I let you
be real with me? And how do Ijust trust that that is enough?
And if it's not enough, well,we're gonna wrap back around
this again, someone else has myback, someone else will say it
better.

Unknown (01:00:51):
Someone else will hit the market and hit

Clay Tumey (01:00:55):
yours seeing a lot of what it takes to be a guide.
And I'm I was gonna say to be agood guy, but I don't. I'm
dropping the good because Idon't it's not a bad guide God
the guide? No, you're not. Ithink you're hitting on all the
things that as someone who'sbeen incarcerated, I know, you
can bring all the informationyou want. And if you're not
here, I'm not. I'm notlistening. If you think you're

(01:01:18):
just gonna dump a library intomy head, I don't take that
somewhere else. I think that's acommon. It's a common thought
that that folks on the insidehave is I can read a book.
Information is not it's not my Ican go find information. But can
you be here? Can you show up?
Can you be real? Can you be whoyou are? And then in some way
helped me find out to be who Iam. I don't think the Enneagram

(01:01:42):
is about. And correct me if ifyou think that this is not true,
but I don't think the Enneagramis about how do I become
something better? Or how do Ibecause not about to me it's not
about growing into a thing thatI'm not, it's to me, it's about
growing into who I am, I thinkwho I think who we are, is
enough thing is good enough. AndI think that we over time, we

(01:02:05):
add all this bullshit. And Ihave to be this and I have to be
that. So to me, it's aboutshedding all the bullshit. And
just getting back to who we are.

I mean, who we are isn't just enough. It's
amazing. Yeah. Like who you are,who I am, whoever won you pass
is, is amazing. But it's so hardin this world to be that. And so
yeah, I agree that Enneagram isabout letting yourself

Unknown (01:02:37):
show up that way. And then when you don't show up that
way? Fine. Show up again later,right. It's good.

I want to ask more questions. Also want to make
sure you okay, we've been goingfor an hour now. That's how,
that's how fast an hour goes by?
Or we go or do we need to? Okay,do you still have full? Okay,
awesome. Hafele? I heard that.
Is there anything from there'sthere's a couple of things that
definitely don't want to not askabout but with regard to GPA?

(01:03:14):
Are there any other things thatstick out about that process
about getting through? Gettingthrough the class and in all the
way to the end of you have toyou have to do you do have
there's like a rubric. You haveto check. We've talked about
this in the last episode alittle bit. But you have to
check, you do have to check offsome competency this and I can
do that and prove that you cando the things. And is there

(01:03:38):
anything left from GTA? Anythingmore that you want to talk about
or mention or any thoughts comeup about it?

I think that the thing that happens before
the practicum that's also reallyvaluable is that we do all the
work of the class. So we do allthe homework that we're going to
assign. And we we write our ownbios, and we exchange our BIOS
and do bio responses for eachother.

This is something that they do in class. On the
inside the bio process is a bigpart of of EPP curriculum. Yes.
And I'm glad you brought thatup. I totally skipped over that.
What? What happens in that? Andis it different than the than
the timeline from path tofreedom? Is it the same thing

(01:04:26):
with a different flavor? What isthe bio process?

Well, for me, it's different. For other
people, it might be exactly thesame. But for me, it was taking
that timeline and turning itinto a coherent narrative. And
that for me, and this ispartially type is really
difficult because when I turnthings into a narrative, it's
really easy for me to turn theminto a story right.

Unknown (01:04:52):
So, and, and I get caught up

in this egoic No one can possibly understand
me. So I need to give you 40pages of information about my
entire life. So you canunderstand me, which is also not
what that's about. Yeah. So. Sofor me, there was a lot of it
was another level of theinternal work that I had
started. And these two runsthrough path to freedom. How do

(01:05:18):
I write this? How do I put it insomeone else's hands? And how do
I do something that we don't doand path of freedom, but that we
ask everybody to do on theinside? Which is handed over and
wait for a response? Yeah. Andman, that is a very different
process.

Unknown (01:05:38):
So for me, it was, it was

a big culmination of the work I've
done to be ready to write thisthing. And to be ready to
receive a response, to be opento receiving a response to let
someone else respond to my storywas a experience of softening
that needed to happen.

Unknown (01:06:06):
It seems so vulnerable.
Like it feels if it

uncomfortable, I think is probably how I would
describe that process. Is thataccurate? For you?

Unknown (01:06:18):
Can it's very well.
It's very vulnerable. Because

for me, I have a certain amount of, of armor, I
think we all do that we enterinto the world with to be okay.
And in this space, you'reinviting someone inside the
armor. And then you're saying,if you wanted to talk about the
things in here. Right, which isvery different than just like,

(01:06:48):
Yeah, I'm gonna share this withyou. And then you just reflect
back but I say, you know, it, itis it is a vulnerable space. But
how can I go into a place wherepeople are so vulnerable
already? And say, Do this act ofvulnerability with me? Who gets
to go home? In two hours? Yeah.
If I haven't done that workmyself.

So much of what you're saying, and I hope folks
who are listening who haveaspirations of being an EPP
guide in the future, I hope thatthey hear loud and clearly what
I hear, which is, you're not onthis path of learning
information to teach. It's notabout there is information,
don't get me wrong, but it's notabout how can I learn this thing
so that I could turn around andteach it to another person, and

(01:07:36):
then continue that. It'sliterally the act of guiding in
that you're doing a thing. Andthen that is preparing you for
going inside? And then walkingalongside folks and literally
guiding them through theprocesses that you've already
done? Absolutely,

and are still doing, right. It's

ongoing. Now. I'm not a destination. Yeah, I'm

not coming in as a guide me like, well, I've
done all this work. So I'll walkyou through the work I've
already done. I'm still doingthat work, I'm still walking
around the same self discoverycircle, I've just done it
before.

And that, that, that, that meant, as a head
type. I'm saying mentality, I'msure there's a better
description for it. But thatcoming from that angle is why
there's quite a few of usspoiler alert, the few of the
ambassadors and I who reallybelieve in us, specifically you.
We think that you'll be doinggreat things in this in this

(01:08:36):
guide role. And it's one of thereasons that I wanted to talk to
you about it, because I think, Ithink you're, you're a great
example of, of who I hope we canrun into more of and it's and
it's for all the things thatyou're talking about. It's
without saying directly, butit's just who you are who you've
been along this journey. And andit's pretty neat knowing that

(01:08:59):
you're going to be going insoon. Yeah, as an apprentice Do
you know

the facility?
San Mateo Maple Street,

I think, How soon are you going in?

Um, nothing is confirmed on time yet, but I
believe it's late March. So verysoon.

We could have a T shirt that says nothing is
confirmed. Literally. There's alot of there's a lot of measure,
but so we have another thing.
Oh, I definitely something Iabsolutely want to ask you about
because you're only one of twopeople that have done this. You
probably know where I'm goingwith that. So we have a thing
called the practice patch wherewe it's exactly what it sounds

(01:09:36):
like perspective guides orapprentices or whoever or
current guides anybody reallycan go in and practice different
teaching. And then we and by weI mean I had this idea. I've had
this idea for a while I justcouldn't get it approved. And
then I did for for a form ofpractice patch where you come in

(01:09:57):
to eat not you But whoever comesin teaches as a way of
practicing, but the differencebeing that the the all the
participant, all the classroomparticipants would be
ambassadors, and onlyambassadors, no other, no other
witnesses, no other guides, noother anything. And I thought,
you know, this would be good tojust, we would try to recreate

(01:10:18):
the environment as much aspossible. And not intentionally
disrupt and damage anyone, butjust give you a taste of what
prison can really be like. Andthe fun little Working Title I
had for that, that I thoughtwould change in didn't. It is
called the class hole, which isto class with a bunch of

(01:10:40):
assholes, I guess. And I, when Ifinally got the green light to
do this, we did this inDecember.

Unknown (01:10:48):
And I asked,

I invited to two folks what we sent it out to all
the folks who were movingthrough to apprenticeships, so
it wasn't literally open toanybody. It was DTPA apprentices
or folks had moved through toapprenticeship. And you were the
first one to respond and say,well, actually, do you remember
what you said, when I gave youthe list? This is what it is

(01:11:11):
there's going to be allambassadors is not going to be
you'll it'll be years to runblah, blah, blah. And I don't
remember how I described it, butI remember how you responded.

That sounds terrifying. I MAN Yeah.

Sandwiches, like, what a response like it's so I
just love that. I love thatvibe. I love that. That is like
that's the peep. Please takethat vibe inside. Because that
is a lot of the work can be Ithink, enhanced by just having
that. Oh, that's terrifying.
Sign me up. And so you were wehad two sessions first, our

(01:11:45):
second hour, and you were in thefirst hour. So you were
literally the first person thatwe ever, ever did that with feel
like talking about any of that.
And what that was?

Well, um, you know, it was weird. It was it
was very difficult. You know,you all I sued us a little bit
when in the, in the practicumsessions, where she asks
questions more from herself atwhen she was participant. So I

(01:12:17):
kind of knew a little bit ofwhat was coming. But the wall of
it. Yeah, it was really tough.
And it was difficult to staypresent. And just for extra
complications, I'd had a reallybad situation happened the night
before. And so I was way belowthe line coming into this. So I

(01:12:40):
was already trying to figure outhow to teach from below the
line. And then there was a wallof resistance against me.

Unknown (01:12:50):
And I, I

intentionally chose something when I think I
could I thought I could finish.
You got to choose the topic.
Yes, I got to pick the topic. SoI chose origins of personality.
And I figured that headspace forlots of back and forth, and had
space for me to drop out and reenter the material. And it went,

(01:13:17):
Okay, it was not the best guidework I've ever done. And, and at
the end of it all, when I wasunpacking it, I thought it was
challenging. But I don't knowthat it replicated what you were
trying to replicate for a numberof reasons. And one of them is

(01:13:38):
when I landed in that room andlooked at who was in the Zoom
windows. These are people Iadore and who I feel so safe
with. And that's not thereality. When I walk into a new
class, you know, there's youlike, you're you all are my
family, like, like you have myback. And if it had been too

(01:14:02):
much if I had broken down intotears, I'd been like okay, well
we'll wait I can't you all wantto have my back. So it was a
very safe environment to trythat out. But it wasn't the
environment because likeeverything in EPP it was so full
of love and so full support. ButI was able to see what got me

(01:14:28):
like what got under my skin themoments where the reactivity
happened first

and did that happen?

I don't know that he did it on purpose. But
you know, we introduce ourselveswith our name, our burnout and
our type and Dustin who's beenin enough classes with me
probably to no one. I use sheher and they them pronouns. My
world is very gender queerpronouns are are very important

(01:15:01):
to me. Like, it's reallyimportant to me. And he right
off the bat was like, I don't doany of that pronoun stuff. I
like girls, but I was all youmust be fucking kidding me like
to come up with on one side oflike, I don't want to have this
discussion and on the site likethe my natural reactivity and
plays from that, but also thisfeeling of like, Dustin? No,

(01:15:23):
that's my button did you have topush that button? So yeah, so
that came up and then that was agood thing go like that has that
has always been something thatI've realized I need to work
with going into guiding likethere are you'll run into that
for sure. I will absolutely runinto that. And I will go ahead,
you know, I will run into peoplewho are incredibly homophobic or

(01:15:46):
who are incredibly racist, and Ihave to make space like I still
have to have, you know,unconditional positive regard
means unconditional positiveregard. And that is an internal
process that not everybody cantake on, you know, and so and I
wasn't even sure I could takeon. And so it has been a

(01:16:07):
process. And that is an area Iknow I have to work.

I can't speak for for Destin. So I don't know if
it was intentional to push thatbutton. I do know that that is I
mean, I saw that in San Diegotwo weeks ago, where, you know,
that's part of introducing howwe introduce ourselves, you
know, we do we do talk aboutpronouns. And it's it's, it's,
it's not so much a requirementof you will, you will say what I
say you have to pick somethingand say it's not so much that

(01:16:35):
it's we're allowing us we'reproviding a safe space for folks
to identify themselves. Yeah.
And fine. If you don't like it,then skip it. Right. But you're
not going to shit on otherpeople. Right. Right. And so I
think it's a, it's a fun, we'llhave another, we'll have more
conversations about it. ClassHall is a thing that we're going
to do. Yeah. And I want to Iwant to revisit that stuff. And

(01:16:56):
I think it actually be good forall of us to have a call
together and talk through it.
But that's, I mean, it's athing. Yeah. And it's fun, it's
fun to be shown, hey, here'sthis thing I don't like, how do
I deal with it?

Right? And going through that, you know,
getting feedback at the end,once again, you know, this is
how we work. And getting thefeedback from Sue. That's I, I
didn't feel the divine spark.
For me, I didn't feel it, it'simportant. And I didn't feel it.

Unknown (01:17:29):
And

once again, I was pretty below the line. So I
was really conscious of this,you know, reactivity. Okay, Type
One sure, being good on theinside is important to you, I
get it, right. And like, I feltthe reactivity I want. thing
that matters, whatever that waswrite that down. And when I came

(01:17:52):
back to it, I realized that shewas 100%. Right? And the reason
that nobody could feel thedivine spark am I talking about
the divine spark was because Icouldn't feel I wasn't there, I
was below line. I, I strugglewith the Divine Spark is

(01:18:12):
concept. And I went back andcompletely changed the way I
teach the divine spark at thebeginning of origins of
personality, the way I talkabout it, which is that, you
know, normally when we say thisis the Divine Spark, it is at
the core of all of us. It is youbefore you are you some people

(01:18:32):
call it you know, God spirits orthe Holy Spirit or the buddha
mind, and it's all the stuff youknow, we have this thing. But
I've added on this idea thatthat's not all it is because
when I'm here saying that it'slike when I'm talking now, like
there's people listening to thisand if I tell you, deep inside
of you at the core of you is theactual you know, it is

(01:18:56):
untouched, it is perfection. Itis your essence and it is an
valuably beautiful. And there isa whole set of people that just
heard that and said, What abunch of

Unknown (01:19:10):
bullshit. And

I mean, honestly, three out of seven
days in a week. I think it'sbullshit too. But like we do
this thing when we sent her thatwe talked about bringing our
attention back to the breath,right?

Unknown (01:19:28):
Notice that you're breathing right.

Your breath was always there. It's been moving
in and out of us since the dayyou were born and you just
didn't notice it. That is yourdivine spark. It's just there.
You don't have to believe in it.
It's just there that's so good.

Are you down to do the class all again and say all
that

Sure. Sounds terrifying. I mean, it is

so it I mean, I don't have a follow up to that.
I just, I just want toappreciate that, that, that you
were willing to go through allthat and get to that. I think
it's amazing. I think it's Ithink it's good shit, as I say,
very informally. Thanks. Andthere are like you said, there

(01:20:20):
are people who hear that and goYeah, I don't know about all
that. And hopefully they canjust hit rewind, go listen to it
a few more times. Yeah.

And if not, we'll all wrap back around.
Catch you

next time around.
Yeah. A couple more things Iwant to talk to you about. And
one of those is San Quentin,where you recently went in to
experience graduation for classthere. And as I understand was
your first time going in? Isthat true?

Yeah, yeah, it was. I've, I've been to
different facilities in the BayArea before but usually a picnic
tables, visiting people who areon the inside. I have other
spaces. So visitor spaces, sokind of a little different, like
cleaned up out? Or

yeah, you've ever been in, in inside hadn't

been in? And what was that? Like? You're not
the first person to ask me thattoday. Right? And the answer is,
it was fine.

(01:21:28):
I was worried, like I had thismoment when I was getting ready
to go with it. I thought, well,I have sure done a lot of work.
It's gonna feel really weird. IfI get in here and walk in the
door and say, Fuck this, I'm

out. Nope.

This is not my show. And I didn't have that
experience at all. And I almostdidn't get to get in there was
There's always problems with

a perfect process with the prisons. You know,

it turns out that when you create a process,
but it's full of red tape, andnot a lot of humanity, it's
really difficult to say I almostdidn't get in, and I did get in.
And once I was in,

Unknown (01:22:13):
it was

fine. Like I don't know how to explain it any
other way. It was just fine. Itfelt totally natural to be
there. There is There wasawkwardness when I first came in
there is that period, you know,we all come in as a group. So
that's kind of the weirdest partis then there's a group of EPP
Yeah, you know, and then there'sa group of residents, right. And

(01:22:38):
then you have to figure out away to intermingle in a way that
doesn't look artificial. And I,I chose my withdrawn type way,
which is I'll just go sit bymyself. And eventually, because
we're in a circle, someone willhave to sit next to me. And I
hadn't seen a lot of people in along time. So I kept ending up

(01:23:01):
sitting with people for me, VP,so luckily, I forget who it was.
But somebody said, somebodycalled out and said, If you are
not sitting next year, like ifyou are sitting with the people
you came here with, you need tomove. Yeah. And so we moved and
Oh, and you know, in under thelines of that sounds terrifying.

(01:23:21):
I'm in I walked in, and we weregoing to divide up into
different groups by type and toa little unpacking. And Cynthia
Maria walks up to me, and handsme a number four. And at first,
I was like, Oh, well, you know,I could just say no, and I look,
my name is on the piece ofpaper. Sorry, we're gonna leave

(01:23:42):
this Type Four group, it'll befine. That sounds terrifying.
Yeah. And so, so I talk topeople, and then I lead the four
group, you know, I guessfacilitated the four group that
wasn't really much leading, justbeing the person to remind
everyone what the question was.

So what were you what was the I mean, just in a
second or two, I guess what waswere you going through
questions? Were you goingthrough? How did you? I mean,
what was the what was theconversation? Like?

Um, I can't remember the exact pairing of
questions. But to paraphrase,which matters, right, you know,
like, the precise wordingmatters, but the paraphrasing of
it was like, how does your typeget you in trouble?

Unknown (01:24:25):
And where do you find your freedom? And your type?

I'll tell you back in the old days, tell you a
little secret here. There won'tbe a secret for long back in the
old days. The question was, howdid your type contribute to your
incarceration? And we would talkabout that. That was the
question when I was when I waslocked up. And we were and when
I first met Susan, and it's thatquestion stuck around for a
couple of years and then it kindof slipped away and it's and and

(01:24:54):
I'm, I'm in the minority, but Ifeel I want to start I want to I
want to I I want to go back tothat I've

Unknown (01:25:01):
really, it's high.

Because I, so I'm not a fan of euphemism or
softening things. And when Ifeel that that's happening,
wait, that's not true. I loveeuphemism. But only in certain
circumstances. But when, whenhaving difficult conversations,
I like to go directly to thething, the thing that is the

(01:25:25):
most accurate, the most succinctthe most whatever. And so for
me, when I was locked up, when Iwas on a panel, to me the
question of how does your timeget you in trouble? It gets to
the meat of it, like it's okay,question. It's fine. But I'm not
in trouble. I'm incarcerated.
And so I felt much. I felt likeit was more precise to talk

(01:25:47):
about what got me incarcerated.
And it's weird, because I don'tIt's not that I'm wanting to
push that on other people. Ijust want that to be a
conversation to have if if folksare down to have it. And
probably won't come back.
Questions probably gone forgood. Yeah. But I, I totally get

(01:26:10):
why, why it's why it's a why whyit's not comfortable for some
people. I just know, in myexperience in the folks that I
was locked up with, and maybemaybe maybe weren't bouncing it
around with some of theambassadors to I like to talk
about directly what happened.

(01:26:30):
And yeah, sure, I got introuble. But like, I was
incarcerated. So I wanted toanswer the question of How did
my type contribute to myincarceration?

That's so interesting. I can I can
absolutely see that. And yet, Ialso see it as an invitation.
Yeah, you know, I'm asking you,How does your type gets you in
trouble? You get to decide whatthat means. And maybe that's a
euphemism. But I'm not saying,and I'm sorry, I'm gonna do a
visual thing on your podcasts.
But I'm not saying how did thatget you in trouble in air

(01:27:01):
quotes, right. I'm like, I'msaying, how does it get you in
trouble? And you can talk abouthow that led to your
incarceration. Maybe it is theworst thing that is happening to
you right now, while you'reexperiencing an incarceration.
And maybe it's not the troublethat keeps showing up for you.

(01:27:24):
Maybe what finally, got youarrested? Like, maybe what you
got caught for is not yourtrouble. Right. You know, it
just happened to be the thing.

Yeah. And almost always it's, it's the the crime
is the easy part to talk about,like, that's the that's the
thing, the thing that got youarrested, it's the easy stuff.
And then all the stuff beforethat is the trouble that the
question really speaks to so Ido. I can see that. It's, it's
probably probably a betterquestion for most. And I wish I

(01:28:01):
just maybe one of these days,we'll find a way to wiggle it
back in somewhere. It's superaggressive, like I maybe even
like, like, inappropriate. But Ijust sometimes I'm okay. Yeah.

I'm all for being uncomfortable. But not
everybody is.

So that's the way that that I usually go about
that conversation. And even inSan Diego, this this week, I was
talking there. And I was like,you know, once upon a time, we
said this, and then I could talkthrough my piece on that without
putting anybody else on blast.
Yeah, on the spot, or whatever.
So. So going back into SanQuentin, you're in the group

(01:28:38):
there. It's, you know, it's justa normal place. There's just
people, you're just just dot dotdot that's going on, I mean it.

Unknown (01:28:51):
What else is going on?

I think it's a constant back and forth, in my
mind, because I am hanging outwith a group of people. And I'm
having the same conversations

Unknown (01:29:06):
I would have

at a EPP Connect meeting that I would
have at a fancy retreat atEsalen having the same
conversations. And they're thesame people. But they're not.
They're in a very differentposition. Right? And so it's
this constant back and forth inmy head between like, Am I

(01:29:28):
making space for where you are?
And am I understanding that whoyou are is not any different
than these other places that Iam like, we are still just
people talking through trying tofigure out how to make it
through today to the next day.

(01:29:52):
So that's the constant back andforth. And then there was also
all the stuff that I had beentold what happened there, there
was A person at a Type Six, whostood up and talked and did the
Type Six thing like finished uphis talk and gave a really
beautiful critique of the prisonsystem. You know, of course,
eight seats away from thewarden, you know, like that kind

(01:30:15):
of bravery that you see in thatType Six, and I looked at, I was
like, Wow. I see, like, I seenot just this person and so much
respect. But I see the way thatthat reminds me of the Type Six
in my life, like my youngestchild is in the Type Six. And I
saw like that same sort ofbravery. And so there is that

(01:30:37):
connection. We're all justpeople in this place. And I wish
I could pick everybody up, putthem in my pocket, take them
home with me, keep doing thiswork in an area that feels so
hostile. And that's not thereality. And that's probably not
the best choice.

That's the way to get back into prison in a whole
different way. Yeah.

But I mean, but I mean, what's the

first step to being an ambassador? Get arrested?

I mean, I have to collect all the titles at
AVP. Yeah, to do No, thank you.
Yeah, so there was like thisreally incredible back and
forth. That I had been told wasgoing to happen. And that wasn't
real until I was experiencingit. And there was a Type Four in
my group who,

Unknown (01:31:30):
you know, we talked, I did a very good

job of doing the things. And I was happy with
the job that I did. I checkedall the boxes, I, I did some
good serve. In return, I madereally good space. And then he
came and talked to meafterwards. And he said,

Unknown (01:31:51):
so why don't you do this? And I said, Well,

I mean, why wouldn't I want to do this?
Like,

he didn't accept that? Absolutely.

Asked it again.
And I had this moment where Irealized

Unknown (01:32:06):
I wasn't

like it, we were about to leave. And I
didn't have the way to make thespace. And I said, that's fair.
It's complicated. But it's animportant part of my becoming,
to be here to help peoplebecome. And we do the work
together, means we all do thework together. And if you get

(01:32:30):
left out of doing this work, thework is not happening. And I
said it with a smile. And hestarted to take it and he looked
at me goes, you know, you can'tkeep coming in here and just
smiling.

Unknown (01:32:42):
And I was all.

And I, you know, I walked out and the time
was over. And as you know it,you very quickly move out of
that space and move into theparking lot. And it's a
beautiful day, the sun hadn'tbeen shining in California for
days and their storm clouds and

Unknown (01:33:05):
I sat down and realized, I still have so much
more work to do.

And as long as I keep going on the inside,
there will always be someone tocall me out. I want to have in
touch.

Unknown (01:33:23):
And that was intense.

I could choose to do something else. I could
choose to just go teach theEnneagram somewhere, I'm good
with words. I can make realpretty words together. I can
make a real pretty words and Ican make people feel things.
And it's not worth anything. Butthis thing where you have to be
real. That's worth everything.

Unknown (01:33:48):
This to me, you know,

I'll agree there.

Unknown (01:33:55):
Huh? That's good. Glad you shared that.

One tiny question.
And then I'll leave you with thelast word. You can say anything
and everything that you wantthat I haven't asked or whatever
else. I'm curious. And it's aguilt free pass if you don't
want to answer you brought upyour youngest earlier. Yeah. How
are things now?

So glad you asked a question. I realized I
hadn't bookended that on theother side. Dylan came

Unknown (01:34:28):
home.

Gosh, I think before I was done with nine
prisons, Mikey,

Unknown (01:34:35):
and we went to therapy together and it was good.

And I don't think it was good because the
therapist I thought was great.
Don't think is good. It was goodbecause I was ready to sit down
and listen in a way I hadn't andWe really rebuilt

Unknown (01:35:02):
our our relationship

are very important to one another. We
went through a lot of shittogether to get to be the adults
that we are. And we have a lotof shared trauma. And we threw
that shared trauma at each othera lot. And I threw way more of
my shared trauma at him than wasever fair.

Unknown (01:35:30):
And yeah.

When, when we all moved, so my oldest child
saved in the Bay Area, and myyoungest child, Dylan, moved to
be with his partner in Canada.

Unknown (01:35:48):
And I drove.

I drove him there, I drove from California
to Toronto, which is a very longway through.

Unknown (01:35:59):
That's a hike. It's very,

like Vancouver or something.

No, Toronto.
And so it's a very long way fortwo queer Californians to drive
as well. So we, we made thistrip together, and we had all of
the conversations that we stillneeded to have, like, we didn't
talk about stuff about us. Wetalked about who we were, I

(01:36:28):
talked about growing up, heasked me kind of like what my
first interaction with thepolice was, like, sort of on
topic. And I told him aboutthat. And we talked about
politics and our dreams. And wegot all the way to Toronto, and
I helped him move his stuff andeverything had gone wrong all

(01:36:51):
the way. His partner, hisparents wanted to meet me, and
he said, Oh, please don't comemeet my mom. She's a husk of a
human being right now.

Unknown (01:37:04):
And then we had dinner

in his no apartment, and he walked me to
my car, and he hugged megoodbye. And he said, Thank you
for getting me here. And notjust driving me here, but
getting me here. And I said,Thank you for letting me be your
mom.

Unknown (01:37:26):
And

letting me keep trying again, and again. And
again. And I that's what I mean,I have two kids. And that's what
I always want them to hear mesay, Thank you for letting me
try again and again. And wehugged each other, and I got in
the car, and I drove away.

Unknown (01:37:49):
And I

spent the night crying in a hotel. And then I
drove the rental car back toDetroit. Turned it in and I
texted him and I said of allthose miles the 14 hour drive
through Wyoming but Type Oneways Wilder route at us through
South Dakota for somegodforsaken reason, all of those

(01:38:13):
drives. Hardest miles. I drovefor the miles away from you.

Unknown (01:38:18):
He said, I love you.
And that's where we are. It'sgood place to be. That's a good
place to be. Thanks for goingthere.

It's always risky.
Because sometimes that ain't theanswer is true. Sometimes it's

Unknown (01:38:40):
heard from him sounds so good on you.

Well and good on him. I mean, it really is.

Unknown (01:38:47):
That's

I mean, one of the things we know in doing this
work right one of the things weknow and doing the work that we
do together at EPP is when aparent betrays your trust and a
parent makes you feel

Unknown (01:39:00):
unsafe. It is the worst it's so hard

you know and I still struggle with letting my
parents

Unknown (01:39:12):
have a space

in the areas that they made me feel unsafe
and the fact that my childrenboth with great bravery are
willing to open their arms to meand say let's try again that's
that's them that's good on them

Unknown (01:39:30):
that's huge their brain

I'm gonna read something real quick because I
just think this is so comicalsomething you said in our
messaging leading up to this andI when I asked you what do you
down the chat and i i So my I'llparaphrase what I said is hey,
I'm gonna be in California thisand such time can we are you

(01:39:57):
down to chat, thought whatever.
and use and it was a long, yesand followed with. And if
something useful comes out ofthat you're welcome to. And I've
learned to not respond to thatkind of stuff because I just
Well, first of all, I just don'tanymore because I just, I just

(01:40:18):
have a good, I feel like Iunderstand who has something to
offer. And I just, I don't, Ididn't know enough about you to
know that any of this would comeup any of me except for maybe
some of the EPP related detailsand stuff like that. I just I
really believed that you had alot to share. And something very
useful would come from this. AndI think folks will agree that

(01:40:41):
that was true. So I appreciateyou for being willing to sit
down and and share yourself. Thefinal question is an easier one.
It's it's probably these justanything that I left out any
questions I didn't answer anythings, anything that you want
to mention or leave, leave thelisteners with, I always give
the last word to the guest, I'llliterally turn off my mic and

(01:41:04):
not say anything else beforethat.

Unknown (01:41:10):
I only

know that we're not supposed to play favorites,
right? We're not supposed to saywho we think is the best that
this or that whatever that. Buta lot of folks believe in you to
degree that a lot. And I'mreally happy to know that you're
going to be going in and anddoing this work along side folks

(01:41:34):
on the inside. Thank you found agood place to share yourself and
folks are going to be better forit. So thanks. Thank you. I'm
really excited to see whathappens. And maybe after a few
months of going inside, we couldsit down again and see. See how
it's been going on the insidewhatever the next step is,
whatever the next step is. Sothat's it. That's all I have.

(01:41:56):
Thanks for Thanks for chatting,I'll leave the last word to you.
And whatever you have toinclude. There's plenty of time.
So don't feel like this needs tobe a 22nd Wrap Up. whatever's on
your mind.

I guess I want to reply to what you've said.
I've spent, I spent, I am nolonger spending my life. Taking
when people say you're so goodat this, you have a gift, we
really like that you do this.
And leaving immediately becauseI didn't want to let people

(01:42:30):
down. And the only reason Idon't have to do that here is
because I trust everyone here somuch. There's not just me, there
is all of us together. And Iknow if I start to misstep, if I
when I messed up when I make ahuge mistake, when I let

(01:42:57):
everybody now and haven't leteverybody down. It's just it's
just another step togetherforward. And that's a really new
tender place for me. And thatthat is the gift that GTP gave
me the idea the

Unknown (01:43:22):
what if Now, what if

we're all in this together? What if doing
something wrong doesn't meanbeing disconnected? What if we
all make mistakes? And itdoesn't matter? Because there's
somebody right there? What ifwhen someone asks you the
challenging question in a class,you can just turn to your co
guidance. I don't know what doyou think of that.

Unknown (01:43:48):
And that's it, I just

you know, they talk about standing on the
shoulders of giants. And this isjust being in a crowd of angels.
And the light together is sobright that even on the days
when I'm dark, it's okay. Andthen I want to read a thing. I

(01:44:17):
read this poem, and this is thebest words of what guiding means
to me. It's called clearing. Andit's by Martha Pacelle, wait Do
not try to save the whole worldor do anything grandiose.
Instead, create a clearing inthe dense forest of your life

(01:44:42):
and wait there patiently untilthe song that is your life falls
into your own cupped hands, anyrecognize and create it. Only
then will you know how to giveyourself to this world. So worth
of rescue For

more information about EPP, please visit
Enneagram prison project.org Weappreciate your time and
attention today. Stay tuned forfuture episodes of the podcast
which you can expect on thefirst Tuesday of every month as
we continue to tell the story ofthe Enneagram Prison Project

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Episode 21: Guide Training Program | Part 2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 21: Guide Training Program | Part 2