Episode 22: Ripple Effect

Alex Senegal is an Ambassador for the Enneagram Prison Project.  He is also a member of the board for EPP.  In this episode, fellow EPP Ambassador Clay Tumey sits down with Alex for a chat about learning the Enneagram on the inside, representing EPP on the outside, and much more.

Also in this episode, we pause to share a few Words of Appreciation for Laura Hooper.

For more information about EPP, please visit EnneagramPrisonProject.org.

Episode Transcript

Clay Tumey (00:07):
Hi, my name is Clay Tumey And this is the Enneagram
Prison Project podcast. Irealized that we typically
upload only one episode permonth on the first Tuesday of
every month. And well, here weare in the middle of February.
And how about a little bonusepisode for once? In this
episode, I sit down for a chatwith Alex Senegal, who is a
fellow EPP ambassador as well asa member of the board for EPP.

(00:32):
Alex is also a dear friend ofmine. So the conversation has a
bit more of a casual feel. Andsometimes borders on downright
silliness. And that's okay. Andwe also cover a range of serious
topics as well. We're gladyou're here. Thanks for
listening. This is the EnneagramPrison Project podcast.

(01:09):
Thanks for agreeing to sit downwith me, man. Yeah, man. He
agreed to it officially.

Alex Senegal (01:14):
Well, yeah, you know, it was just like, Damn arm
behind the bag. We're gonna do apodcast later on. Right? Yeah,
cuz

Clay Tumey (01:21):
everybody knows us knows that. That's how I roll.
And that would totally work.
That would totally work. No, Iliterally just sat me down to
chat, you know, tonight. And yousaid Yeah, sure. So yeah, thank
you.

Alex Senegal (01:31):
Yeah, it's always a pleasure. It's always a
pleasure, this city and Chopra,which you know, lots of talk
about a lot is happening, a lot

Clay Tumey (01:38):
has happened. We'll start at square one for the
folks who don't know you. Andbelieve it or not, there are
people in the world who don'tknow who you are, oh, tell us
who you are. And really anythingthat you're comfortable sharing.
If you just want to only sayyour name, that's fine. Or if
you want to say you're tightwhat you do with EVP what your
history is what your today iswhat your tomorrow might be
anything that you're comfortablewith. Who are you? Why are you

(01:59):
here?

Alex Senegal (01:59):
Yeah. So I'm Alex, Alex Senegal, and Type Nine on
Enneagram. And I've beeninvolved with Enneagram Prison
Project. Well, to be told nineyears, nine years now. Wow.
That's amazing in itself toEnneagram. I was introduced in
Enneagram. In 2014, while I wasin custody, and here we are in

(02:22):
2023. And I'm out of custody.

Clay Tumey (02:26):
Yeah. So in when you say in custody, you were you
were doing time? Yeah, you wereon the inside. And I don't
remember which facility you wereat. Yeah,

Alex Senegal (02:37):
yeah. It was the first class that Susan came and
taught, taught in custody inCalifornia.

Clay Tumey (02:44):
So you, you were in that first class that she did
here. And I've heard the story abunch. And I love the story.
What What was your introductionto the Enneagram? Like?

Alex Senegal (02:56):
So she came when I was in a program already, we're
in program RCP program,regimental correctional
programs. So she came through apitch out there were a little
Enneagram map and what have you,and so only so many people was
gonna be here to go to theclass. I didn't want to be in

(03:18):
the class I was already in I wasburnt out from that once and
then so she went over to theclassroom and everybody went not
to lag behind his oh, I want togo because I just really wanted
to get out of there in custodyprogram, but I didn't want to go
because they had this symbol.
And I'm like, Man, I can go thatdad as a coat, man. And that's
not right. So I'm wrong. And sothen I kept saying I can't do it

(03:42):
was something inside let me saygo do it. And before I knew it,
I snatched open the door andthere

Clay Tumey (03:49):
was how long did it take from from the first time
you saw that symbol? To thefirst time you actually stepped
inside and realize, and maybeit's not that scary?

Alex Senegal (03:58):
I was only about

Clay Tumey (04:00):
15 minutes. Oh, it's quick. Yeah. Okay. I thought I
thought it was a while.

Alex Senegal (04:04):
No, I was out. No, because it was all happening.
Like easy. Yeah, you got to doit. Now. You're gonna do it.
Yeah.

Clay Tumey (04:11):
Do you remember? Do you remember what Susan opened
with and what she said and whatmade it's I'm assuming a lot
here that you know, what? Was iteasy to listen to her? Or did it
take a while to warm up to her?
Um, and do you remember whatthose first conversations were

Alex Senegal (04:26):
like? Actually, that was the that was the thing
that I would ask them whatbecause he she was so inviting,
and it was like, this issomething that for me, I knew it
was something I needed. It wasjust that's what kept coming up
for me. And it was just the wayshe presented it. She presented
it in a manner in which shecared that you can feel she

(04:47):
cared so that's where I keptwrassling where I'm like this
new almond sounds like she caresabout people but to symbol can
get me Yeah, Dan said I justignored the symbol went on in
there. You know Man, I want thebest show he's ever made him
like, yeah, yeah.

Clay Tumey (05:05):
What's that? What's the big deal about whether or
not somebody cares? What Whydoes it matter if she's if she's
there to bring information,knowledge, however you want to
put it? What? Why? Why is itimportant that

Alex Senegal (05:16):
everybody can bring information and knowledge,
you know, anybody can do that.
But what I've learned is thecare component, the love
component. And I can usescripture on this when the Bible
tells me that love conquers allthings. And when the word all
doesn't mean, nothing escapesout of that nothing's exempt

(05:37):
from the word all. So, in mysituation, I was suffering from
a lot of guilt and shame andunworthiness, and you know, I
didn't let the world down again,let my family down again, let
myself down again. And I didn'tfeel like I was worth anything.
So for someone to care,regardless to what I was feeling
about myself, that was a hugethat was that was just huge. And

(06:01):
that's what that's what that'swhat makes the difference with
these and custody programs.
Because, you know, I can sithere and put a program together
on paper, now, given a sweetwhiskey about who's going to be
presented to and how and whatthey're going through, and
nothing like that. Right. All Iknow is that I do this I put the
right information down, I'mgoing to get a grant this grant

(06:21):
and we'll get this money. Andthen all I got to do is go in
there and give some kind ofskeleton program that that's
what happens. And that wasn'twhat was happening with what EPP
was Susan coming in presentingthis program. It's messy, she
wouldn't even get paid. She'sdoing this for

Clay Tumey (06:40):
free. I was all days there was no, there was no there
was no ban. There was no gettingpaid. There were no grants.
There were no there were nodollar signs were few and far
between. Right. So I think it'sa fair, it's a fair point to
start. And we won't we won'tstay there too long. Because I
want to get I want to, there's alot between you said 2014 2014.

Alex Senegal (07:01):
So

Clay Tumey (07:01):
nine, nine years past, we got to jump ahead a few
years. But I will tell folksthat you've talked a lot you've
been very open and this thisthere's plenty of your story
that can be found. Yeah, I useyour stories out there. You've
shared a lot of yourself. Yeah,and if folks want to know more
about that, and the details ofwhen you talk about let my
family down again, that storyhas been told. And and and I

(07:25):
would encourage folks to go findthat and listen to it. And hey,
by the way, if you can't findit, give Alex a holler give him
an email or something. And he'sopen and honest and ready to
share that. Yes, the and I thinkthere's a lot of value in that.
So skipping ahead a year or soyou were released from from
custody most recently when? 2015Do you remember which month and

Alex Senegal (07:44):
day I said dues?
It was well it was it made it 20Made it 24th 2015

Clay Tumey (07:52):
So this you're a few months away from eight years
out? Yeah. And what when youwhen you got out what was
released like for you where doyou go? What do you do? What did
you find to be easy to difficultanything? Oh, yeah.

Alex Senegal (08:06):
Well, it was easy for me it was really easy.
Several things had happened. Oneis that before I got arrested
when I went into custody, I hadstarted up a base reentry
program. So the reentry programwas going full force Destiny
reentry it was going to get youstarted as what welcomed you
back. Now, you know, started nowmove I'm a client and

Clay Tumey (08:30):
commercial like the 80s and 90s Not only am I a
member but I'm also the are notonly am I the president, but I'm
also the

Alex Senegal (08:36):
closeted clients a perfect fit. And so yes, we had
a lot of support from Destinyreentry. But I also had a lot of
a lot of interaction, a lot ofsupport from from Susan herself.
You know, and I mean, shereceived she was a mentor. You

(08:57):
know, she took me pick me up tothe right hand guide me and
showed me and kept going and Ikept on interacting with the
Enneagram community community atthat time, because she was
giving she was also teachingclasses up in Los Gatos, but it
wasn't the Enneagram PrisonProject who was a community
Enneagram thing so I will go upthere and sit in Glenroy now

(09:19):
when it just being around Susanin really just learning a new
culture and learning a newlanguage learning a new way to
live you know and then she sentme up to brasen for might do
that. I live Lillian Bella RosaHouma. And so at

Unknown (09:43):
this point, you're an ambassador, and you're an
ambassador of the EnneagramPrison Project and and I know
valen bro says most folksprobably will, but to anybody
who doesn't. What the hell areyou talking about?

Alex Senegal (09:53):
Yeah, that's battle roses is the facility
with a narrative Enneagram istaught and I'm So I really was
blessed to sit at the feet ofDavid Daniels at the time. May
he rest in peace and Peter Haratha Han, Han, and Peter and Helen
Palmer, who was our ReneRosario, none of the big wigs. I

(10:19):
mean, I got a great opportunityto just sit the whole month and
man is some heavy hitter, man.
So yeah, so it was really,

Clay Tumey (10:31):
what was that? Like?
Let me ask it this way. BecauseI'm gonna say, you know, I will
say the things that most peopleare uncomfortable saying. Yes,
sir. You don't look likeeverybody else that's in that in
that crowd.

Alex Senegal (10:41):
Oh, well, that was the beginning of self
acceptance. Yeah, that was by mereally? At this one time the
Enneagram Prison Project. It wasreally upper echelon fortune 500
company that's what was reallygoing to be on brasa Yeah. Not
big black dudes who just got outof prison? No, no, even though
there was just finished sayingwhat I started about. I

Clay Tumey (11:01):
go you don't you don't you don't look the part as
I put in quotes right. Here, bythe way, can you vote for me
that that's accurate?

Alex Senegal (11:09):
And okay, that is?
That is the actual back? Yeah,that's back back behind that.
And so one thing I know, therewas one black dude that did come
through there. I sat on a panel,but you ex, NFL football player,
okay, you know, had money andright and all that stuff. So it
still didn't matter of fact, hewasn't even accepting of me.

(11:31):
Yeah. Because that'sinteresting. Yeah, very
interesting. Yeah. But so thatwas cool. But that was the best
thing about it. And that wasreally the Enneagram Prison
Project, really starting to getour feelers out there to get our
name out there. And, and so medon't want an ambassador to do
is really promoting EnneagramPrison Project. I was not

(11:53):
ashamed of being, you know,learning to Enneagram in prison
metabank I thought that was thebest thing anyone could ever
done. Right? And so why though,why? Why is that? Well, one is
for the fact that someone caredabout somebody else who was so
broken. You know, someone caredabout people who are so broken,

(12:14):
so low, so destroyed and out andused to our analogy, or Humpty
Dumpty. He was so shattered, hecouldn't even be put back
together. Were many of usincarcerated are so shattered
just like that. But theEnneagram is helping put us back
together, along with my faith,you know, and Jesus Christ.
That's what is really, for me,has helped put me back together

(12:36):
made me Whoa,

Clay Tumey (12:40):
why didn't you bring that in? Because I also want to
talk about that how theEnneagram goes with your faith
instead of against or evenotherwise. And Phil has talked
about it before Episode Seven,for those of you curious, I hope
I'm gonna hope I'm quoting thatright, I believe it's Episode
Seven with Phil and Susanne andPhil being a pastor talks, talks
about how the Enneagram and itsfaith go go side by side down

(13:04):
the same highway just maybe indifferent lanes and, and you
know, I talked to my mom cup afew episodes ago, and it was a
big concern for her, you know,does this jive with what? What I
believe the Bible and my God istelling me is okay, and the
answer is yes, clearly, and whenI say clearly, it's clear to me,
but it might not always be andeven even starting with the

(13:25):
symbol being kind of right andthen now so your as you sit in
front of me, you're sayingdefinitively like they, they did
well, I don't want to say whatyou what you're trying to say
you keep going on.

Alex Senegal (13:36):
For, for me, and this is where I come to the sole
conclusion of the Bible wouldtell you to change the Bible
tell you what not to do. And theBible tells us how we should
have the Bible, Christ and allthat and all that's fine. But
the Bible don't tell us how tochange. You know, I can go about
like, stop using drugs and stopchasing women and all that

(14:00):
stuff. Okay, so Doc can stop.
But it never, you know, tell mewhy ever do it right? You know,
the Enneagram it helped meunderstand why did I even do
these things. And once Iunderstand come to the
conclusion and understand whyI'm doing what I'm doing, then I
can start changing these thingsthat I'm doing. And that's
really helped me theunderstanding of why helped me

(14:21):
understand and know how to stopYeah, you know, and how to
address it. And so that's for meand then also to be able to
develop the true essence. Youknow, a divine spark all these
are God Christ like charactersfor me. Christ like

(14:42):
characteristics and then havingthe courage and understanding
what my why I have so muchfeared to live this way. You
know, what are the componentsthat makes me feel I'm not even
worth living this way. Becausewhen I caught my case, and last
case, I was hanging out inchurch I was faithful in church,
I was a deacon in the church Ihad been ordained minister yet,

(15:03):
man, today I am a minister inchurch, you know, but it's just
really a helper to that can gohand in hand. You know, for me
anywhere does.

Clay Tumey (15:16):
And there was a, there was a story today and we
will leave out the names becausewe were we were in prison
earlier today. And one of the,I'll say the type and you'll
know exactly who I'm talkingabout Type Three. And he was
telling a story about when hewas young and still in shoes,
and the and the reason behindstealing shoes, and it's so
easy. It's such a beautifulexplanation and description

(15:38):
really, of how we can judgethings from a distance and be so
wrong about what we saw. Yeah.
And in this in this kid's case,he's a man now he's in his late
20s. But at the time, he was achild, right. And he stole a new
pair of shoes and some shorts.
Yeah. And it wasn't because hehad sticky fingers. It wasn't
because he was trying to sellthem later from profit. It

(15:59):
wasn't because he had a habit tosupport. Right? It wasn't all
the things that we tell people.
Oh, you're so bad. You're athief, right? You're, you're a
criminal. You're a bad person.
Those are that's those aren't.
Those aren't true. No. They Imean, maybe they can sometimes.
But in this case, he was talkingabout why he stole those shoes
and to and to bring in whatyou're talking about. The Bible

(16:20):
says don't steal the clearestday. Right, right. Just don't do
it. And but the Bible doesn'tspeak to what that child was
experiencing in that moment.
Exactly. Which was he at acertain issues were trashed,
right. His family was poor.
Right. And he wanted to uphold acertain image. Because it
matters. It matters.

Alex Senegal (16:43):
It matters so much to one. Yeah, it was a part of
at that was who he was thatdefined? We were

Clay Tumey (16:50):
so the shoes completed him right away.

Alex Senegal (16:53):
Now, I can also want to just say this, if people
Christians would uphold truevalues, and would look out for
individuals who don't have, thenthose don't have people don't
have to make them destructive.
decisions to go steal. Yeah, youknow, and so, you know,

Clay Tumey (17:15):
I'm always, I'm always comfortable opening up to
another candidate.

Alex Senegal (17:22):
You know, but there's a lot of work to be done
in a lot of areas. I don't Idon't want to just bash to
Christians, but it's a lot ofwork, we got to do a lot of

Unknown (17:31):
work. And the bottom line, which is what the what I
want to circle back to is thatthat you're the third person I
know more than three, but you'rethe third person on this
podcast, at least to say thatwho I am as a believer, as a
Christian, as as someone whowalks in line with what I think
is right, according to theBible, Ray Enneagram works with
that.

Alex Senegal (17:51):
I haven't seen no reason why it doesn't. Bible
tell me all good things comefrom the Lord. Yeah, that's the
Bible say,

Clay Tumey (17:59):
I'll say we might have some history that goes way
back to them.

Alex Senegal (18:03):
You know, what they say? Me? I can say I mean,
I'm just saying bags. Backspeaks voice. Yeah. I agree.
Yeah. So that's one part aboutbeing in a bass because I'm
also, you know, along with beingintroduced to do the work of the
Enneagram. I also an ambassador,which I love more than more, I
love being an ambassador, Ireally uphold this title with

(18:26):
basketball.

Clay Tumey (18:28):
And more titles, by the way, yeah, just keep going,
but we'll get to that there aremore titles.

Alex Senegal (18:37):
Yeah, you know, and the deal is, to be able to
just represent the EnneagramPrison Project, to be able to
just uphold his integrity, youknow, and be the living
breathing proof of a program soto speak. And it's not even a

(18:59):
program, it's a way of life,right? And that this just be the
living, breathing proof. That ishow valuable this is.

Unknown (19:08):
You and I were on a bus in Utah a few years ago, you
already know. And it's a great,it's a great line in the history
of EPP and you said, we're goingwe're going up the mountain to
this resort. We're not we're ina pretty nice little thing
happening there. And we you andme and Susan and, and a few
others. Were in his van and thedriver. We were talking about

(19:31):
EPP and the driver turns aroundand say well, what is EP what is
EPP and you told him? I am

Alex Senegal (19:38):
EPP. Yeah. And as simple as that. We embody this
thing. Yeah. We put life to it.
It's not no words on paper isnot printouts and slides. You
know, it's human beings manthat's been transformed, has
been healed. It's been renewedin their hearts and their minds
is healing mean beings that wereso broken and so disgusting. So,

(20:00):
felt so unworthy. So sad andjust not, you know, just not
have purpose being put backtogether again. And now where we
go, and it's our responsibilityto turn this world upside down.
You know, for those who arestill stuck in this prison of

(20:21):
their own making, yeah.

Clay Tumey (20:26):
Have you ever considered being a speaker of
some sort? All right title wasit was some woman on a few years
you got out? You were anambassador, you went to bound
bro. So you're grooving along?
Yeah, and I don't know what yearit was. But you did inherit a
new title. It was neither wastoo long, though. Is 18 or 2018?
Maybe ish. 1917 was somewhereand there's definitely before

(20:50):
COVID. At least I? I'm prettysure it was before COVID.
Member, but the time timelineaside, what is what else? Are
you a board

Alex Senegal (21:02):
member? That yeah, that's kind of insane. You know,
I wrestled with that

Clay Tumey (21:08):
hard. When you say insane. I'm translating that in
my brain is that's pretty wild.
That's pretty bizarre, or that'spretty unexpected, or, or
whatever. I don't think it'sinsane for the record.

Alex Senegal (21:20):
Okay, the deal is going back to what something you
were saying. And I'm gonnacomplete saying there's a valid
Brosa I was the only, only onlyblack male there. And then I
were a visitor when one cameand, and so at that time, you

(21:44):
know, I had to know who I was, Ihad to get to a point and they,
it offered me a great platformto really put the practice on me
being worth something, not notnot exclude the color of my
skin, exclude my education andexclude my background excluding
everything else, to sit and holdmy position my seat right there

(22:08):
in the presence of all thesepeople who in my mind, and I
went there several times was waysmarter than me way, Richard me
way better than me, not oneperson in their head of felony,
okay. And I had to sit down andhold who I am in my value. And
all of it as this path I was on.
All of it was just a preparationfor one step to the next step

(22:29):
for the next day. So when I wasin Brighton, to be on the board,
and to sit there, I had to holdmyself and I revert back to the
Tuberosa, you know, which wasthe beginning of my solidify in
my training about holding myvalue. And so then I really had
to sit there and know that mypurpose there was going to be

(22:55):
meaningful, but it wouldn't bemeaningful unless I put a voice
to it. You know, being being anine, I can sit there and let
everybody else have all thesediscussion. And I put on the
Yep, base. But I won't neverspeak what needs to be spoken.
And I would I would I didn'twant to do that. I knew I
couldn't do that Susan, was itshe's not gonna let me do that.

(23:16):
And so I really began to excel.
Why am I here? Yeah. And thepurpose will end for me, my
purpose for being on that boardis still to represent the
ambassadors first and foremost.
And those of you who are stillin custody, incarceration. Do
like it. I love it. I love it.

Clay Tumey (23:41):
unfortunate that the microphones may pick up that
small

Alex Senegal (23:44):
one. Yeah, man, I love it. Because, first of all,
its purpose. And I know thispurpose for me in life is a good
purpose. Its purpose is ameaningful one. It's one that I
believe in best in and when youinvest in people you invest in
humanity is the best investmentanyone can ever make. is better

(24:08):
than investing in the mostbillion dollar project that
you're going to get a fantasticreturn on, you can get a greater
return and even invest in humanbeings. And so we get that
opportunity.

Clay Tumey (24:25):
What is one more question about the board then
we'll we'll scoot a few yearsmore into the future getting
closer to now what what are somethings about being a board
member with an organization likethis that matters so much and
that does so many good thingsconnected to so many good
people? What's something thatyou might not have expected?

(24:45):
Going into? And I know the hoursI know some of those long
weekends. That's gonna bequarterly stuff and I know you
can't talk about all what Ithink caught you off guard.

Alex Senegal (24:55):
There's one component I think is fantastic
and I love it. At first, Ididn't know what it was. I was
just going along. I didn't knowwhat the heck they were talking
about.

Clay Tumey (25:06):
But I spoke to chuck Collins. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Senegal (25:09):
Yeah, exactly. And so this thing called group
dynamics, before we starteverybody to check in with the
group dynamics, and everybodywas four or five people, right,
right. Six, six. And soeverybody was known. I'm dealing
with everyone. And I'm like,okay, so I sound the sound good
with everyone, which I'm goingto do I want to talk about

(25:31):
nobody.

Clay Tumey (25:32):
Group dynamics is a step before the first step where
we say, does anybody have anyissues that will prevent us from
being present for thisconversation? Exactly. That I do
that that was off top my head?
That was exactly right. Cool.
That's exactly it. So you'redoing that before the meetings
before

Alex Senegal (25:48):
meeting? Yeah. And I really started seeing how
powerful that right there wasbefore before they even if I had
an issue with you, and and thatwas my invitation to address it.
Yeah. You know. And so that thatway, we as a board, we as a
group, we as a collective, we,as one can come together as one

(26:13):
wants, if you get a while to getjunk out the way that's
preventing it. So yeah, so insaying that, that will make us
have a very powerful board.

Clay Tumey (26:21):
Yeah. That is the very, that's the perfect example
of this, of this quote that wehave, that we that we claim to
do with the claim to be is thatwe do the work together. Yes.
And you're starting off a veryimportant meeting by saying,
Hey, anybody got a bone to pay?
Right? I'm paraphrasing. That'snot how it is. That's not
that's, it ain't nobody'schecking anybody, but you're not

(26:42):
changing. You're not changing.
That's exactly what it is. Thespace is there. If I walk in,
and I'm pissed off at Alex arenot even pissed off. If I just
don't understand some something.
Why did you say this today? Orwhatever, right? I have a space
without guilt or shame oranything else about worrying
about interrupting the meeting?
I have a space to freely speakabout that. Right. Right.

(27:04):
Exactly. I did it. Yes. I thinkit's a good thing.

Alex Senegal (27:08):
Yeah, so that component alone, really is very
powerful means a lot to me. AndI think it also is one of the
key components where our boardis a powerful board. Yeah.

Clay Tumey (27:25):
understatement, but yeah, I'll just say Yeah. Yeah.
There's some some some rockstars in there, dude.

Alex Senegal (27:33):
Yeah, yeah. Well had to say yeah, that means I
have to say, Yeah, I'm one.
Yeah.

Clay Tumey (27:40):
I mean, who doesn't believe that?

Alex Senegal (27:42):
Yeah, it's powerful. And the thing is, what
makes it so powerful is the lovethat each one of us have. And
it's this thread that we're allthreaded and knitted together,
to bring that love towards thepurpose of the Enneagram Prison
Project.

Clay Tumey (27:58):
Yeah, you know, I'm gonna ask a question this might
get might get both of us introuble if there's an answer,
but I'm gonna ask it anyways.
And just, I'm curious, and nopressure to answer if you don't
want to. Has there ever been amoment in one of the board
meetings? Where where there wasa good idea? The intention was
in the right place, and all ofit seemed okay. And you just

(28:21):
went hold on this? Yeah. Youknow, and I'm not I'm not you
know, what I'm asking you. Sobasically, where you say how to
this. This is not speaking tothe people that we're serving,
or what or anything like that.

(28:42):
Well,

Alex Senegal (28:44):
let me say this here. I am so sure about this
one component that EPP is goingto put together. And it's going
to be EPS is not going to be EPPjoining together with some other
something that's alreadyestablished. I'm so serious. And

(29:06):
I'm so determined. And I knowthat this is the way that we're
supposed to do it. I just knowit in my spirit. And so I really
had to stand up for that. Yeah.
And I And yeah, and I foundactually to be told I was really
excited and really determinedand had the strength but the

(29:26):
strength came forward and it wasa lot of energy that came
forward to when I'm presentingit. It kind of got I was
presented a little aggressivelywhen but it wasn't because I was
mad but it is a lot of energycame forth man where I just
really wanted understood thatwe're gonna we're gonna get this
this component, we're gonna getthis this next component for EPP

(29:49):
because it's is needed. Yeah,and it's really, really gonna
make a big difference.

Clay Tumey (29:58):
And I I know people listening Energy St. Clay,
please ask him what the hell ishe talking about? Yeah, and
that's

Alex Senegal (30:05):
standby stay to

Clay Tumey (30:12):
the bullet. I don't think anything there needs to
get added to that. As I recall,I tried, I would suck if I was
like a Hollywood Reporterbecause I don't, I don't like
digging. I like talking topeople, but I don't like being
nosy. I think anything beyondthat is nosy. So thanks for
sharing that. Thank you. Somoving ahead a few more years.
Of course, COVID happened thatscrewed up a lot of things we

(30:32):
did. And it also provided aplace for us to be able to do a
lot of things. Right. And, um,I'll skip through a lot of you
know, the public programming theZooms all that stuff. And I want
to fast forward to May of 2022 Ibelieve it was May was it may or
may have maybe been June. Yeah.
Last summer at some point alittle less than a year ago.

(30:52):
When we flew to the other sideof the world,

Alex Senegal (30:56):
man, they gave me a passport. Yeah, yeah, cuz and
I'm saying this because I hadgotten denied getting a passport
for for a long time. And by gotthat passport, and yeah, we had
a trip over there to Sweden. Theother side of the world man
going through the woods atLondon. Heathrow. That place is

(31:17):
crazy. That's crazy. But itexists. Yeah. To me. It only
existed on on a movie becausethat's the first

Clay Tumey (31:27):
time leaving America and first time. It's a long time
we sit on a plane for a big olboy.

Alex Senegal (31:31):
Yeah, it was a long time wasn't too enthused
about getting on the plane. Toosoon after that hit me.

Clay Tumey (31:36):
Did you fly by yourself? Or did you go with was
that I answered.

Alex Senegal (31:42):
Y'all there? Yeah.
Renee. Was Renee. It is.

Clay Tumey (31:47):
I want to say when I got there first he

Alex Senegal (31:49):
got there first.
Yeah, he was already there. Hewas already there. And then Miss
Susan and I.

Clay Tumey (31:53):
Yeah. So you didn't go on accompanies? No. But it's
still a little. It's a newexperience.

Alex Senegal (31:59):
Man. I just flew by myself the first time right.
Yesterday. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Susan is Susan you my norm? isSusan, hang on. I need.

Clay Tumey (32:15):
Hopefully we broke that pattern this week. And as
we talked about got but goingback to that trip, what? What
was it? Like? I mean, talk aboutanything that sticks out to you,
whether it's the trip itself, orwhen were there at all the
people were at the conference,the pizza place we went to with
Martone? I mean, anything,anything that pops out about
that trip for you?

Alex Senegal (32:34):
Well, yeah, tripping is, the whole trip was
exciting, you know, a lot ofthings. A lot of things can come
to mind. Gotta give a lot ofthought. But really, what really
sticks out though, is, here weare at this conference, here we
are doing what we will we justdo is nothing special. But what

(32:56):
I learned and what I found, andwhat I witnessed is that it
don't matter if we're in theUnited States, they don't
matter. We always Sweden, nomatter where we add, the
Enneagram Prison Project goesforward. And it makes an impact.
And it was a huge impact. Peoplewere really moved, they were
really interested. Now, somepeople had never even heard of

(33:19):
us. But they never forget us.
Right. And so that was reallypowerful. That whole conference.
It was like the beginning ofhim. In person conference.
Again, it wasn't big. It was itwas it was cool. It was a cool
game

Clay Tumey (33:33):
in the presentation that we did. But we I mean,
Susan, you, Renee and me.
There's a video presentation onthe screen, Susan talks through
a lot of the basics of who weare and what we do. And then
also the three of us ambassadorsshare openly about our
experiences, both on the insidenow, how the Enneagram has
helped us. And there were a fewpeople there who knows we've

(33:56):
seen this before. And like yousaid, there were some new folks,
the reaction in that situationis so such a wide variety of of
emotions, reactions, thoughts,it's really kind of a trip to
talk with people in a room aboutsomething that can be so
personal or so distant fromtheir experience. Right. Yeah,

(34:18):
like that. And I think I think afew folks are just heartbroken
at the reality of what prisonis.

Alex Senegal (34:28):
Right? And at think they really the fact then
how broken were we are will thatthey learned that we were you
know, and how open we are to letthem know that race really, you
know, it's amazing. So it's nota it's not an easy thing to do.

(34:49):
But we do that and I have totell we do it and we make it
look easy, but it's not

Clay Tumey (34:56):
well, what's hard about it why what is because
some people might not understandYou speak very well to your
experience, and to details thatare tough to even listen to. I
can't imagine how they can seemeasy to share. But what is going
on inside of you? When. And I'llpreface this by saying we can
edit anything we talk about. Soif I say more than you're

(35:18):
comfortable with, we can cut itlater. Yeah. But how is it? So?
From my view, I watch you. Andit seems like you have quite a
bit of ease and comfort andsharing that you had alcohol in
your bottle, right? As a smalltoddler.

Alex Senegal (35:33):
Right? What thing it does for me, one is it brings
me healing, it brings me healingis by no mean to demean my
mother. Because she's, she'sdealing with her own style, you
know, and that's what she had togo through. That's what she was
going through, but it helps.
That's my healing. Is my truthis specs. And is, it's not

(35:56):
uncommon, it really wasn'tuncommon thing, you know, yeah.
So the more the more I can speakto it. Yeah, it is, the stronger
I get, you know, and the dealis, and it brings me healing and
brings me forgiveness, you know,I have given this up for my

(36:17):
mother forgiveness for myself,you know, and then it helps me
realize and understand andaccept how much I had to
overcome in life. Yeah. Yeah.

Clay Tumey (36:28):
Does it make it easier to kind of cut yourself
some slack a little bit?

Alex Senegal (36:34):
Yeah, what's the deal? Is it when lead and
compassion come forward? Youknow, don't just let me cuz just
everybody, man, yeah. Everybody,that that and that's why I you
know, usable, love, love willconquer, understand, this is
just not a scripture, orsomething written on paper. This

(37:00):
is something that can be putinto action, and then you can
really see our outcome. Loveconquers all thing. You know?
Yeah. And it gives you when youcan have a compassion for
yourself for what you've beenthrough, I'm able to give that
compassion to others for whatthey're going through. Yeah. You

(37:20):
know, and to be a differencemaker. You know, it don't have
to be just me somebody in theEnneagram community or somebody
incarcerated. It can be thehomeless person right down the
corner. Yeah, you know, thecompassion will flow out, you
know, my favorite saying is, youknow, that the river life flows
from the inside out, right. Youknow, because if it's a pool or

(37:44):
river, a compassion inside of meto flow towards this Oh, entire
world. You know,

Clay Tumey (37:52):
what is? What is the most difficult thing about being
an ambassador? We love I don'tknow why it's funny. I mean,
there's things do come up.
There's a lot of good. First ofall, yeah, it's there's a lot of
what's good about being anambassador, we can have that
conversation forever. But arethere ever days where it's like,
well, I don't know. I won't evenask the question. I'll, I'll

(38:15):
share it with you that there aretimes where I'm like, I don't
know if I want to do thisanymore. I'm tired. I've talked
about my ship for so long,right? That I'm tired. And I'm
tired. I'm tired of of a man.
I've learned how to not judgemyself. And it's still tough
sometimes. And to be honest,sometimes I'm just tired, people

(38:35):
patting me on the back. BecauseI don't feel like it's I don't
feel like I deserve all that.
You feel like you just do whatyou're supposed to do. I feel
like I feel like I've done a lotof work. And I'm happy with what
I've done and who I've becomeand who I keep growing into
hopefully. But there are dayswhere I don't want to talk about
this shit. Let me hear aboutyou. You know, I want to say

(38:56):
that to other people, like I'vebeen giving a lot so that's what
comes up for me

Alex Senegal (39:07):
I get tired it does. It requires a lot a lot of
energy it required sometimes Iget tired of just dealing with
other ambassadorsNo, no it just really because
you know you start to go by andit I don't never get to the

(39:31):
point where I don't want to bean ambassador. But it can I can
get tired or you can't meet allthe requirements or all the
events or all the things thatthen if you if I was to try to
just make all this stuff, oryou'd fall over i Yeah. And so
few months you'd be out burnttotally. So he was so no, I

(39:52):
don't do that part. So whenbecause I don't do that. That's
why I energize or take my brakedenergy, but it takes a lot of
energy. But I love it. I loveit, you know, not to mention
that, you know, being anambassador, and it took me
places that I never ever wouldhave went

Clay Tumey (40:13):
to Utah, the other side of the world over in
Europe, I'm about to run downthe list of places you've been
because

Alex Senegal (40:21):
I can remember it.
I'm gonna go to Utah, but one ofthe things about Utah, and you
wasn't at that one when we wentto the top of this mountain on
the eagle release, right? Yeah.
Then took to the ski lifts toget to the top of his mountain
now muscle scale. Yeah, I boughtmy first time.

Clay Tumey (40:36):
Yeah, yeah. Oh, another first.

Alex Senegal (40:39):
What do you what are you doing? Wow. Oh, shoot.
I'm gonna horse.

Clay Tumey (40:45):
Put that horse in traction afterwards. Probably.

Alex Senegal (40:47):
Yeah, he's Dumbo twice rode horses three

Clay Tumey (40:58):
days find out that horse said hold on, man. You
give me a ride.

Alex Senegal (41:01):
Right? So everybody else had their horse.
And they rode the horse. Everytime they went out there. They
were on the same horse. Yeah,but every time I went there to
try to find a different

Clay Tumey (41:13):
was isn't what I want to know. I want to know
that you actually heard a horsewhen when they found out you
were about to write it. I wantto know that there's a horse out
there that went and got the kit.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Right? That wouldn't happen. No.
Okay. Well,

Alex Senegal (41:27):
I tell you, I can't remember his name. But he
was a bad horse. Hay waspowerful. He was powerful. So it
was interesting.

Clay Tumey (41:36):
That was Utah.
Wyoming. I know you've been toMinnesota, Minnesota, Colorado.

Alex Senegal (41:42):
I know. I've been to Colorado for MPP even I
didn't

Clay Tumey (41:47):
make that one. Okay, Ohio. Cincinnati, Cincinnati
course the Bay Area, you know,which is where? This is where
you live, right? And then ofcourse, Stockholm, Sweden. See?
What's left. It's where do youwant to go? I want to go to
Ireland. You know, I think weknow people who we know people

(42:07):
who kick it around theresomewhere.

Alex Senegal (42:08):
Hey, that's place I've always wanted to go my
whole life. I don't know. Yeah,I guess I'm a black Irish.

Clay Tumey (42:14):
I mean, you read green right now. You literally
have on a green jumpsuit.
Everybody can see. Yeah, andgold to go with it. So

Alex Senegal (42:21):
yeah. So that's why I always ever since you just
want to stick out even more. Ijust want to see all that. It's
like It's like it's beautiful.
Yeah, I know. It never been butI know it.

Clay Tumey (42:32):
Somebody is listening right now who can make
that happen? I'm gonna cross myfingers that it does. You need
to go to Ireland first. for likea month or two. Whoa, you can
work remotely right? Yeah, youweren't. I mean, the Zoom is
still working. Zoom still goes.
Get your ass over to Ireland,man. And it'd be nice. What is
that? Is that actually doable?
If if, if the opportunity cameup was like, hey, and I got an

(42:56):
opportunity to go over there fora few weeks or a month or
whatever. Would you be able toget away to actually do that? Or
do you have do you have thingsback home need daily care?

Alex Senegal (43:04):
I have a grandson but he may. Yeah, well yo right
now but yeah, now he's he? He's20 Oh,

Clay Tumey (43:16):
yeah, he's doing okay. So that's not a
restricting all eating set out alimiting factor.

Alex Senegal (43:21):
I'll get him set up.

Clay Tumey (43:23):
So we I mean, 45 brief minutes. We caught up on
the first eight years and we'rein year nine now. I think.
Laurie, you meant to leave. Areyou about to leave? Okay, we
might pause my but I want totalk about this this week.
Right? And but we'll pause realquick to say bye cool.

(43:53):
Hey, y'all, it's clay. And wepaused the recording here to say
goodbye to our friend Laura, whohappened to be there on site
where I was recording with Alexand she had to go so we paused
to say goodbye. And it'sactually a really good spot to
just stop and share a few wordsof appreciation for program
manager and EPP guide LauraHooper. Laura has been on the

(44:14):
podcast before and I don't mean20 seconds ago when she was
saying by she was on episode Iwant to say 12 ish. I don't
remember the exact episode. I doremember the title of that
episode. It was called. Not asupposed to be a gram. The list
of things I appreciate aboutLaura. It's quite lengthy. And I
will I will summarize and saythat at the top of that list is

(44:36):
joy. She is one of the mostjoyful people I know. And the
reason that I probably enjoythat so much is joy is not
something that I naturally seek.
It's not something that I justautomatically experience. And I
need a bit of a catalystsomebody to kind of spark that
in me and remind me that that isa thing in life worth
experiencing and worth having.

(44:58):
And so I absolutely appreciatethat. about Laura, she has
easily one of my favorite laughsin the entire world. And in
addition to that, and plus much,much more she has what I could
only define as a glow that justkind of follows her around. And
again, not exactly something myexperience on my own, and I

(45:19):
absolutely love being in thesame space with her whether it's
on the inside in prison and aclass there, or just out in the
world, or even on a zoom call itit transmits just the same
through the internet 1000s ofmiles away. Absolutely love
being in the same space being apart of the same organization
being a part of any project thatLaura is a part of, and this

(45:41):
world and especially EPP is amuch better place with her. And
don't just take my word for it.
Here are a few other folks fromthe project to share a few
thoughts on Laura Hooper.

Unknown (45:54):
Whenever Laura's

Jodi Norton (45:55):
on a call, I just feel so instantly supported and
seen and at ease. I love Lauraso much she just brings so many
things she brings ease shebrings excitement she brings
love she brings her heart Yeah,I I just feel like EPP would not

(46:25):
be the same without her there.
And I don't think I would havehad the same experience without
working with her. I just reallylove her energy and her
enthusiasm. And she just has somuch knowledge and experience.
And I don't know, it's she'sjust an amazing human. And I was

(46:46):
just watching the fireside chatand Laura's input, there was so
so valuable. Just being able tospeak to the guide experience
and what EPP needs and what sheneeds to be supported in her

(47:11):
role as a guide. Just hearingher talk about it has brought a
lot of light around I'm sure tomany people, even to myself, I'm
not a guide, but just brings alot of light around what that
experience needs and requiresand and also what it gives back.

(47:33):
So yeah, I just reallyappreciated that. Laura, you're
amazing fall, I have to say loveyou.

Renee Lopez (47:45):
I will start off by saying that I do have a bias
because Laura is one of my bestfriends. But what I really
appreciate about her as as longas I've known her from the day
that I have met her she hasalways been very open and
curious about the people sittingin front of her. And this real

(48:08):
wanting to know and understandthe individuals and people that
are in her presence. And there'sa million other things as well
her ability to hold so manythings in her mind when it comes

(48:29):
to scheduling and all the thingsthat a program manager needs to
know have over the years justsimply amazed me. So I have lots
of love and appreciation forLaura

Robin Grant (48:46):
I appreciate Laura Hooper so much. Laura is and has
been such a great friend to me.
Since I began working with withEPP 2018 She radiates joy and
kindness and enthusiasm andpositivity. And she embodies our
vision to free people all overthe world from the prison's of

(49:10):
our own making. She is a anamazing guide and beautiful
human being. And I'm so honoredand blessed to work alongside of
her.

Unknown (49:25):
Laura was my first contact with the EPP I knew I
was interested in the missionbut after speaking with her I
was all in to be part of theorganization. She has this
interesting mix of care andwarmth and kindness this big
hearted inclusiveness but mixedwith a clear eyed honesty and

(49:51):
integrity. I kind of shaken herboots strength, this quality of
being able to stay with it Withher values with her commitment,
and with herself. She's therock. She's a rock for EPP, she
shows up, she shows up for allof us, for her students. And

(50:16):
most importantly, I think and sobeautifully she shows up for
herself. I always feel seen byLaura. I feel love in her
presence and I feel loved. And Iam always inspired by her.
Laura Hooper is one of the mostbeautiful souls on the planet.

(50:38):
And I just consider it a greathonor that I know her and then I
get to work with her at EPP aappreciate the hell out of her.
And the things that I appreciatemost her not the things that she
does. And she does a whole heckof a lot at EPP to support the

(51:01):
work that we're doing here. Butthe things that I appreciate
most about her is is herpresence, like how she shows up
in the world, how she shows upfor herself, so that she can
show up for EPP so she can showup for our students so she can
show up for her family. I loveyou so much, Laura, I appreciate

(51:28):
you. And I'm so grateful to besharing this time and space with
you.

Susan Olesek (51:34):
I am a sucker for a seven and I fell for Laura a
long time ago. She came to uswhen we were really tiny. And
she sent us a spreadsheet sayingthese are all the places that I
could come in and support EPPand this is why you should have
me. And we didn't get it. Notthat we didn't get Laura but

(51:55):
like we literally didn't receiveit. And I I shudder to think
where would we be if we hadn'tfinally opened the email and
received all this stuff thatLaura had to bring. And so yes,
she has all that it's uh, it'sfunny, the spreadsheet thing.
I'm sure she's chucklinglistening to that. But Laura is

(52:18):
so much more than a spreadsheet,it's like you can't actually
calculate or predict orencapsulate what she brings in
heart, and the sober ways she'scultivated and honed in on being
able to stay with herself and bea guide to other people holding

(52:40):
on to themselves. I mean, thatis over seven. That's the,
that's the gift of Laura,

Rick Olesek (52:49):
Laura Hooper, what to say, Laura is such a
beautiful soul. She's my TypeSeven partner in crime here. And
we do so much together and getto be in so many spaces and
places together. And she showsup with this unbelievably
beautiful heart. And of course,she's Uber competent, and, and

(53:14):
is able to move just so easilythrough all the things that we
need to do any BP in the backoffice. But she also is is is a
guide and someone who has aincredible heart for this work.
And just to witness her show uptime and time again. And with

(53:37):
her heart on display, and to beable to hold space for others,
whether it happens to be othersin the project, you know, from
an operational perspective, orjust or others on the inside,
just holding space and beingable to really connect just
absolutely love having beingable to work beside you know,

(53:59):
side by side with Laura, andhave been for so many years now.
And it's been a true blessing

Clay Tumey (54:17):
we both kind of blown through the first was that
eight, seven or eight years 898ish years of your existence with
EPP and where we are. I want totalk about this week where we
are right now we're talkingspeaking of traveling, we're at
neither one of our hometowns.
Yeah, I'm from Dallas. You'refrom Oakland, San Jose. Okay. I

(54:38):
say I will start that over. Ican edit that. I'm not going to
I think writers and I think ofOakland. Yeah, but they don't
have a team in San Jose. I guessno, like a hockey. But you're
Yeah, you don't care about thesedigs. Like they have it in
Ireland. So you're good. Um,yeah, we're in San Diego right

(55:00):
now. Right. And it's a reallynice place. Lovely. We're in a
nice, pretty nice Airbnb. We'reat the dinner table. Yeah. I
like it here. It's cool here.
But this ain't the best place.
This is the best thing aboutthis place. Right? Right. What
are we in San Diego for

Alex Senegal (55:20):
RJ D? State Prison? Yeah, you know, we get
to go inside these walls. It'sum, it's a high level of
security prison. And we get togo in there and do what we do
best. And as helpers proceedthis awful, awesome gift that we

(55:41):
live help people we've freedfrom the prisoner their own
making. Yeah, you know, and helppeople understand why they do
what they do. You know, Iremember one time, Susan was
share, you know, how, you know,you do something? commit some

(56:03):
kill somebody. But we'll followthat is that's not who I am.
Right. It was his absolute truestatement. You know, but why did
you do it, though? This is thething. And so that's his great
gift that we get opportunity togo help present these

(56:25):
individuals who are residents ofthe state in these facilities.

Clay Tumey (56:31):
And a lot of a lot of times, often, I guess, and
county jails or even in prisonin general. Like, it's a very
common thing for folks to belocked up for drugs, or
distribution for for using forowning possessing whatever.
There's, there's a whole lot ofreasons that people get locked
up. And it's, is it different toyou? Doesn't matter? Does it

(56:57):
feel different? Whatever, whenthe room is, has a little bit
more violence in their pastwhere it's not, they didn't just
get locked up for a few jointsor a or a bag of weed or
whatever, where they are therefor killing somebody? Yeah,

Alex Senegal (57:09):
no, that's that's not you know, different at all.
It says matter of fact, that'sexactly who needs this. That's
exactly who needs this program.
You know, um, we're here today,to even identify to the thought

(57:29):
patterns are hurting someone Idon't, I won't have I don't have
those. The understanding whysomeone had the thought pattern
or hurting someone, I totally,totally resonate with it,
because I used to operate thatway. So I'll totally get there.
And that's why that's why theyneed to know about the new

(57:52):
ground. That's why they need tolearn about themselves as well.
Because without introducing thisknowledge, this wisdom, this
tool to them, it doesn't marry,they don't, they don't stand a
chance, you just might as wellkeep on because they go back and
they do it again. But when theycome to know why I do what I do,
then you can you know, awarenessbrings about correction. Yeah.

(58:16):
And so then, given the guidanceof support, you know, to make
these corrections man, peoplewhose lives are being changed,
you know, and then to, for me tosit in this circle, and listen
to these gentlemen. articulatethis Enneagram what they're

(58:38):
learning. I mean, they can putit into words, man, you know,
and have the awareness and thelight, and the understanding
that they're gaining. And thisis just within days, you know,
is unbelievable. It'sunbelievable. I want to
backtrack just a little bit realquick and talk and see is

(59:00):
mentioned I just want to mentionlast week, when we had
graduation in San Quentin, yes,yes. That I mean, huge and
matter of fact, last week, um,can't put dates to it. But
January, was a Wednesday of lastweek, Wednesday. Last one. Okay.
So let's say the 18th to20/25 23rd was like a historic

(59:25):
week for EPP you know, yeah.
Because we had the graduation atSan Quentin

Clay Tumey (59:34):
on Wednesday, the 18th January 18, January 18.

Alex Senegal (59:38):
With Chuck went back in another one of our
ambassadors or one of our bestwho went back into the front
door, you know, of a institutionthat he did time in our
institution where they werestill people that he did time
with, right they were officersknew Him Who knows, like, you
know, either harassing or theyhad a cordial understanding, and

(59:59):
he they At a sea Hill, industryclose in street clothes shining
like a new nickel per new Pennyrarely. Anyone remotely do it
anywhere. But yeah, but youknow, and they get to see, they
get to see not the finishedproduct. But what the work do,

(01:00:20):
yeah, a product that is puttingwork in action, you know, and
then we had Sue, going back intointo San San Mateo institution
or facility was she was was aresidence when she went back in
by herself, to present to teachto be a guide of the Enneagram.

(01:00:43):
Historical, she was living,breathing proof, living,
breathing proof, other lessonplans that she was gifted, you
know, and then we had also wehad Dustin? Yeah, go away. Oh,
in Belgium, yeah. into afacility, you know, to represent

(01:01:05):
and to articulate and to helppeople get an understanding and
to give support to the guy thatalso went over there. Very
powerful. Very powerful. Bigdeal. Yes. You know, so we as
ambassadors, you know, we're inthis not when label ambassador,
but we really go forth torepresent what the Enneagram

(01:01:29):
Prison Project is all about. Youknow, my bishop used to say, we
got to put some hands and feetto our faith. So we put in hands
and feet and heart to and ourambassadors. Yeah.

Unknown (01:01:41):
So there were. So it's, I think, I think a lot of times,
I maybe this is just myperspective, I think we get a
pass from a lot of people. Cuzwe're out here, we're doing
better and all that. And I think

Clay Tumey (01:01:55):
it's maybe some of it is deserved or even earned, I
guess. Because, you know, we'vebeen out a lot of us have been
out for several years now. Rightand have stayed out. And that
can be tricky sometimes. Butwe've done it. And so I but we
get upset, we do get a pass, weabsolutely get a pass a lot of
times, or maybe there's a betterway to say it. But people look
at us and go wow, that's great.
They get you favor. Yeah,exactly. There we go. Favor

(01:02:17):
privilege. There's a millionways to say it. And it's not
always true for folks on theinside to get that same benefit.
And, and I want to ask aquestion. I've asked this of
others before, but I'm curioushow this hit you. What What
would you say to the to thelistener who's hearing this? And
going I'm Alex, I'm glad you'redoing well. I'm glad all this is

(01:02:41):
awesome. And I believe in you.
And this is great. But that dudeis doing a life sentence for
murder. Who might not even everget out? Why are we wasting our
time on that guy?

Alex Senegal (01:02:53):
I could have easily been a dude, I was it.
Do? You know the deal is justbecause you murdered somebody,
Dominus, who you are. But if welook at hurting people hurt
people. So we can get thatindividual who's hurting people
to look at his hurt and to getbe healed from his hurt, then

(01:03:15):
hurting people? He's not hurtingthem or he's not that person.
Yeah, you know, then we can cometo a place the individual
hopefully move to a place ofself forgiveness. You know, near
there still consequences. Yeah,yes. There's still a family
that's missing a person from thedinner table. Yeah, there's

(01:03:36):
other things is taking praise,but that person can be healed
today. And go forward. You know,everybody, every every, every
living soul deserves a chance. Aword is called salvation. Yeah.
Total forgiveness.

Clay Tumey (01:03:58):
It's an unpleasant question. I pose it in a way
that's not fun to hear onpurpose, right? Because there
are, there are people that andit's and I don't, by the way, to
be clear, I'm not mocking themor being I'm not shitting on
them for asking the question.
Because for a long time, Ithought that way, fuck that guy.
Right. And it's a it's a pointof growth for me to accept this
reality is that folks can folks,it's not even fair to say that

(01:04:22):
they can change in my opinion.
Sometimes it's more like, howcan we help them go back to who
they are, who they are. And IAnd I've said this on the
inside, I say this, every time Iget a chance to I genuinely
believe and I it's it's moreimportant for me to stress this
for the incarcerated justbecause of their history often.

(01:04:43):
I truly believe that people aregood. I think that inside of us
all, to put it more clearly. Isis goodness looking for a place
to happen. I just believe thatand you can stomp on that hurt
and wadded up mess with it andscar it in sometimes. Sometimes

(01:05:04):
the good stuff doesn't quitehappen and the painful stuff
happens instead, right? And Istill believe there is a point
of healing where we can go backto that. Goodness waiting for a
place to happen a

Alex Senegal (01:05:17):
place to happen.

Clay Tumey (01:05:18):
Is it true?

Alex Senegal (01:05:19):
As Wainberg? Was he the brain the goodness ng
Yeah, to go through the pain.
The air go through the pain andthe belief that the pain is
gonna be so great. He's gonnakill me. Well, we let's see. And
I don't think he's going to aimanother analogy for pain. What's
their pain? Well, pain. I nevergave a witness childbirth. I

(01:05:41):
never gave him pain brains forlife. And for my understanding,
that's probably one of thegreatest pain the human body can
ever go through. And it bringsforth life and brings forth
life. So that's my analogy.

(01:06:01):
We're paying the pain that wethink he's gonna kill us. It's
gonna bring forth life. And it'sworth it. It's worth it. Right?

Clay Tumey (01:06:09):
So in a class, whether it's whether it's on the
inside, whether it's publicprogramming, wherever it is,
there's no there's no promise ofsunshine and rainbows. I mean,
there may get there eventually.
But it's not a fluffy, funthing, process to go through.
And it's gonna stay in just acouple of hours. She's in there.

(01:06:32):
I don't want to listen to this.
I don't want to watch that. Idon't want to think about this.
I don't want to revisit that.
Right.

Alex Senegal (01:06:39):
Right. Right. And so there's a part of the
process, you know, and to holdthose individuals will
compassion. Okay, well, let's,let's just hold and talk about
what you want to do. Okay, well,it is a table big enough right
here to put all this other stuffon the side. And that's what

(01:06:59):
then that's, that's thecompassion man. And we get to,
we get together today. We get togive it full force, man, and it
was on display today. You know,on the inside, and on the
inside, individual found a softspot. The lamp was all that hurt
and pain he'd been carrying. Hecouldn't cut off the spigot man.

(01:07:22):
Right, you know.

Clay Tumey (01:07:23):
And if you want to share more about that you can we
can skip the name and share asmuch as we want.

Alex Senegal (01:07:28):
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it was a beautiful thing.
As much as he made it sound alldistorted and all lost and all
confused. All I seen was anindividual that really found a
spot where he can really speakand just unload all this trauma

(01:07:48):
that he's been holding on to.
And as we notice, throughout thewhole core, and at the end you
said it beds covered around.

Clay Tumey (01:08:00):
Yeah. You know, yeah, no, it's the

Alex Senegal (01:08:04):
last eight mini me.

Clay Tumey (01:08:06):
i i Yeah, it's a bummer sometimes that we can't
say names. Yeah, sometimes thattoughest person that when I say
tough, I don't mean strength andstubborn. Well, I was just mean
that that that woman, it's justhard. Some some nuts are hard to
crack. Right. Right. But youknow that once you crack them?

(01:08:26):
That's, that's a futureAmbassador right there.

Alex Senegal (01:08:28):
Yeah. But would that purchase sound like he was
a

Clay Tumey (01:08:33):
bit so Exactly.

Alex Senegal (01:08:40):
Yeah. But yeah,

Clay Tumey (01:08:43):
I we're a little over an hour here. We're getting
long, I only have two morequestions. One of them's pretty
specific, and then one of themis more open ended. Going back
to kind of chatting about this aminute ago about people deserve
a second chance and being therefor folks who are wanting to
change and all that goes alongwith that. If, if and I guess

(01:09:06):
just trying to imagine somebodylistening to this, who's kind of
on the fence about whether ornot to get involved, to help to
be a part of EPP and maybe theyknow something about the
Enneagram maybe they don't knowjack shit, but they know that
they care about people. And wehave lots of places to serve,
where we can help people, right?
And so to that person, ifthey're asking, hey, what can I

(01:09:28):
do? Who do I even ask, what'sthe question? What am I even
wanting to know? I just want tohelp and I don't know what to
do. What would you say to thatperson?

Alex Senegal (01:09:39):
Well, you said it best. Maybe they know the
Enneagram. Maybe they don't andeven if they do know the
Enneagram. My thing is, is wehave the online courses where
the I think he's getting readyto start and we will continue on
just not as often. But you gotto get involved with the online
course. So you can be I get itget introduced to our culture is

(01:10:05):
a culture it when we embodythings, it's a coach's a way of
life. And so to be able tounderstand why we do what we do,
why we teach, like we teach,while we get the compassion that
we give it, why, why we are whatwe are, where you had to be take
these, you know, online courses,or you get involved with the

(01:10:25):
Enneagram Prison Project classessomewhere where it's offer. So
you can learn our culture, thatthat's absolute first thing.

Clay Tumey (01:10:35):
Can I email you?

Alex Senegal (01:10:37):
Somebody? You're

Clay Tumey (01:10:41):
forwarded to somebody? I assume we equate and
and for the sake of clarity,I'll say that there is info at
Enneagram prison. project.org.
Right. Probably the best placeto start online and purchase
Prison Project. Yeah. And ifthey want to holler at Alex,
it's the same except Alex. Andso that is that info, or me
claims that have been playedEnneagram prison project.org One

(01:11:01):
final question. First of all,thank you for sitting and
chatting with me. This was kindof spur of the moment I did it
earlier today. Yeah, but younormally people have more than a
few hours notice. Before we sitdown and get the mics out and
record some stuff for quite afew people to hear. So thank you
for that.

Alex Senegal (01:11:21):
He worked on it.
Yeah, you fancy man. This isthis is cool setup. It's pretty
neat.

Clay Tumey (01:11:25):
All the pretty colors and mice got the
headphones. You can hear thedifference to go go listen when
this goes up. And you can hearthe difference between this and
when that episode one thatepisode one was, was fun, but it
wasn't the level of professionalproduction. Right and so we're
we're on another level but thatit's all jokes aside, all
silliness aside, thank you forsit down and sharing so much of

(01:11:48):
yourself, which is somethingyou're very good at. I enjoy it.
I have a lot of respect for you.
I care greatly for you. You'remy brother, as far as I'm
concerned saying you did. Andand I just I love the hell out
of you, man. I'm really gladthat you're around. And the
world is better with Alex in it.
Thank you. I want to leave youwith the last word, I don't
really have a question. I'lljust say that anything that you

(01:12:09):
want to share, and there's Ihave 30 Something hours left on
recording time. So don't worryabout time. Anything you want to
say. Any any last words, I'mgoing to I'm literally going to
turn my mic off and just turn itover to you.

Alex Senegal (01:12:23):
Thank you, Claire.
Appreciate it. And I'm not gonnasay too much. But the one thing
I will say is we live in in sucha hurting society is this so
much abuse, so much hurt so muchpain, and to where we have more
people giving up on people thanwe have people really want to
hurt help people. Becausethere's that loss, they don't

(01:12:45):
know what to do is seemed like abigger hopeless case. But for
me, I want to always be somebodyelse's hope. I want to be
somebody else's hope becausesomebody was my hope once upon a
time. I was a hopeless case,once upon a time, and I'll never

(01:13:07):
forget that. And it will. And itwas other people who was my
hope. And so they stayed thataway until this transformation
took place. Now I have thatresponsibility. And I believe
that the more lies we continueto touch, the more hope we can
continue to just shower, thisdying decaying world. We're just

(01:13:31):
going to be the light and willbe that beacon of light that
will help Swanley so to keepfrom shipbreaking somewhere, and
if we will only get one so wetake that. But I do know because
this time we get we do is sopowerful. So many more souls are

(01:13:52):
going to be saved, they're goingto be restored, they're going to
be healed. And it's a rippleeffect is to definitely real
effect. So that's why I believein Enneagram Prison Project. And
that's why I believe we continueto go forth and my faith you
know, and this helps me goforward in my faith and can make

(01:14:12):
a difference in his world. I'mnot gonna give up on this world
wouldn't give up on me.

Clay Tumey (01:14:34):
More information about EPP please visit Enneagram
prison project.org We appreciateyour time and attention today.
Stay tuned for future episodesof the podcast which you can
expect on the first Tuesday ofevery month as we continue to
tell the story of the EnneagramPrison Project.