Episode 24: Answering the Call

Laura Hooper is a guide for Enneagram Prison Project.  She is also a program manager (and much more) for the project.  In this episode, EPP Ambassador Clay Tumey sits down with Laura for a conversation about stress, programming on the inside, and why we serve those who may never have a release date.

Also in this episode, we pause to share a few Words of Appreciation for Sue Lambert.

For more information about EPP, please visit EnneagramPrisonProject.org.

Episode Transcript

Clay Tumey (00:12):
Hi, my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison
Project podcast. In thisepisode, I sit down for a chat
with EPP guide, Laura Hooper.
And you've heard from Laurabefore about her role as Program
Manager for EPP, among otherthings, and this time around,
we're going to chat morespecifically about what it's
like to do our programming onthe inside. A quick side note,

(00:32):
we recorded this on the backpatio of the Airbnb where a few
folks were gathered. And thiswas on a cold evening in
January. So if you hear usreferencing the temperature, a
time or two, just know thatfirst of all, we were outside in
January. And second of all, itactually wasn't as cold. It
really wasn't that chilly atall. It was it was quite
pleasant outside. And of coursewe were outside. Why wouldn't we

(00:55):
be? I don't know. That just madesense at the time. Laura is one
of my favorite people to sitacross from I had a lot of fun
with this conversation. And Ihope you have fun listening to
it. We're glad you're here.
Thanks for listening. This isthe Enneagram Prison Project
podcast.

Laura Hooper (01:24):
So I had pizza for dinner.
Sorry. I am Laura. Laura Hooper.
I am a huge fan of EPP is whereI spend most of my time. But
this week in particular is superexciting because we are in San
Diego and I now live in SanDiego. And there is a prison

(01:48):
here that is just beautiful. Andthey really partner with us. So
this was the first just today wegraduated the first at myself as
a guide inside of thisparticular prison. It was the
first program we have done sinceI have lived in San Diego. So I

(02:08):
was already feeling like thiswas the place I wanted to be.
And today it was like this isthe place I'm supposed to be.
Yes. So yeah,

Clay Tumey (02:18):
you have a few titles. With EPP I think right?
Yeah. What are some of thosetitles?

Laura Hooper (02:25):
Um, guide and program manager and kind of
whatever needs done?

Clay Tumey (02:34):
Yeah talked before we talked mostly from your
program manager. Role and by theway, I don't feel bad Jason a
squirrel. Does that look like aheater to you?

Laura Hooper (02:44):
It definitely looks like a heater to me.

Clay Tumey (02:46):
Do you want to do do we see where the wires run? Did
you say you're tight by the way?

Laura Hooper (02:51):
I did. I did not.
I did on the last one. But as wewill use squirrels we might not
even need to say my type.

Clay Tumey (03:01):
Yeah. It's probably worth explaining what this place
looks like describing I thinkwe've all decided that we agree
that a Type Seven owns thisAirbnb, they must and in case
anybody didn't connect the dots,we were implying that you are
also Type Seven.

Laura Hooper (03:17):
Indeed I am.

Clay Tumey (03:20):
Is it worth describing the patio alone?

Laura Hooper (03:22):
It is it is a place that you should hang out.
And there is a lot going on alot of different directions a
lot of signs that areinteresting. And it's I mean
every inch that you look atthere's almost something that
you could be like Oh check thatout a little bit. Yeah. And it's

(03:43):
a lot of color. Yeah, it's

Clay Tumey (03:45):
yeah, I'm looking at a sign that says in case of fire
and it has a stick figurerunning from a flame it says in
case of fire freak out and runlike hell yeah, I also see
another picture where the textis written sideways so that you
have to tilt your head 90degrees to read it. And that
sign says you look really stupidwith your head tilted like that

Laura Hooper (04:11):
that's not the end. There's a lot more

Clay Tumey (04:15):
will

Laura Hooper (04:16):
there's a sign in the bathroom I forget everything
that it says but says the normaldon't flush this that paper
products blah, blah. And then italso runs on it says hopes and
dreams.

Clay Tumey (04:27):
It also says puppies and kittens. Please do not flush
paper towels any of this. Any ofthat. Blah blah blah puppies and
kittens hopes and dreams. Yes.

Laura Hooper (04:35):
Yeah. That's a good sign. Okay. And action.
Yes, the rest is cut.

Clay Tumey (04:47):
Maybe some of it maybe maybe not. So anyways,
we're here in wonderful SanDiego. I know. We said the name
of the prison earlier but Ithink we have to bleep that out.
I think it's I can't rememberthe rules around that we can say
where Are we are and then notsay any names or we can say not
the place. And then we can saynames. I don't remember which so
we'll just be vague on both.
Yep, that sounds good. I don'tknow if names are all that

(05:08):
important anyways. But what? Sothe format for this class has
been a little different. We werehere last year, and we did a
full week, full intensive, havelike, full day, or full morning,
full afternoon. And we did thatfor five days. This time we did
it or four and a half ish plusgraduation this time we did it.
A wee bit different but stillthe same idea. We just split it

(05:32):
into two weeks. So two weeksago, we were here on Thursday
and Friday, full days from eightin the morning until four in the
afternoon for Thursday andFriday. And we came back this
week, Thursday and Friday. Yep.
What did we do here? What thehell went down and tell anybody
anything that you could think ofabout that?

Laura Hooper (05:53):
Well, we welcomed in close to 20, folks, 15 of
which stayed for the entirecourse. And we journeyed, I
would say journey through theentire EPP curriculum, eight
modules about roughly threehours a module give or take. We
do like our flexibility. And yougot to do that in the classroom.

Clay Tumey (06:16):
So you're saying things get snipped here?

Laura Hooper (06:20):
Sometimes? Yes.

Clay Tumey (06:21):
What's the word? The bonsai tree? What's the what's
the right word for that trimmed,

Laura Hooper (06:25):
trimmed? Yes, we make decisions of how will the
bonds I look this? Yeah. Yeah, Imean, it's, you know, when
you're in a classroom, it's, ifyou've got great conversation
with folks looking at themselvesand sharing what's going on and
present, you're not going toWell hurry up and get through
that, because we got to move on,you know, you give it the space

(06:45):
it needs. So that's the kind ofthe fun part of it is, how do I
dance with whatever's here andadjust accordingly.

Clay Tumey (06:53):
And it's probably easier to instead of saying two
weeks ago, and then this week,and all that stuff, just in
terms of like day 1234? Yes. Andso this was a pretty talkative
group. A lot of folks in this inthis class, we're talkative and
how, how soon was it when yourealized, Oh, they're not just
gonna listen, they're gonnatalk?

Laura Hooper (07:14):
Well, I have to say, when I have these kind of
groups that are that it isexciting. It's like, oh, but I
would say with this group,

Clay Tumey (07:24):
actually, can I can I pause real quick. And I want
to ask why. What's so excitingabout that, as a teacher, as a
guide, who is on a time crunchalready, and you're telling me
that when they start talking,it's gonna immediately throw
your scheduling off, things willhave to be Bonzai, and all that
stuff? What is exciting aboutthat? Why does that why is that
where you go?

Laura Hooper (07:43):
Mmm hmm. Well, I'm not. It's gonna sound funny,
because you spend so much timein training, and we want folks
to deliver the curriculum. ButI'm not there to. Like, fire
hose comes to mind, I don't knowif that's quite the right word.
But I don't look at my okay, goin fire hose, get every piece of

(08:06):
this curriculum out. Like thatisn't the goal. For me, me
walking into a classroom isencourage people to come on this
journey and fall in love withthemselves. And that doesn't
usually happen with a fire hose.
It's usually they're starting totake things in and figure it out
and piece things together. Sowhen I feel that in this this
particular course, day one forsure, yeah, within an hour, like

(08:28):
it was like, Oh, these folks arein I will say part of that is
six of the folks had taken thecourse previously. So they
already knew their Enneagramtype. And they have been working
with it since we were here about10 months ago, eight months ago,
something like that. So thatalways helps so much, but like

(08:50):
this. Yeah, I knew day one like,oh, wow, we got we've got quite
a few talkers in here. Andthey're ready. So Okay, gonna
keep me on my toes a little bit.
But I'd much rather spend fourdays on my toes than four days.
Yeah, just saying things. Lookat this in the book and do this.

(09:11):
So this is much more. Yeah, thisis this kind of the dream
classroom.

Clay Tumey (09:16):
I'm curious. So you talked about there's originally
20. It turned into 15. And Iknow a few of those were gone.
By the first break. One of themat least was gone. Before we
even started. He walked in andsaid, I wasn't supposed to be
here. I don't want to be here,whatever. And bounced. And I
think if I'm just listening, ifI'm just out there in podcast
world, and I'm listening, I'mI'm wondering, Is that normal?

(09:39):
Like if you do you normallystart with 20 and end with 15?
Or is that

Laura Hooper (09:43):
mean? Start number varies for sure. But it's it's
more common to have a few falloff than all of them to stay

Clay Tumey (09:54):
75% Pretty good, or is it reasonable or is it it's
acceptable? It's

Laura Hooper (09:59):
reasonable in It depends on the institution. Like
if it's a jail, it's a littlebit different. If it's a prison,
and we were in a prison thisweek, folks tend to be more
grounded. They've been in longerlike all of those things play
into it. So I would say and notcompletely because I'm thinking
of some other jails and prisonswhere I've had nobody quits.
They're all in. So it's, it'sreally all over the place. And

(10:20):
I've had other ones where somany people get released, and
people drop that it's I finishedone course, this was years ago
with two people. So it's thereis Yeah,

Clay Tumey (10:29):
and you introduce the difference between or
without even saying it, butimplying that there's a
difference between jail andprison. And it's it's brought up
a lot on the podcast. And whenit does get brought up, always
ask for clarity, or forclarification, rather, what is
the difference between jail andprison? Some folks don't know.

Laura Hooper (10:44):
Yeah. So in the US jails are and jump in if I
misspeak to this at all, please.
But jails tend to be run by thecounty or a city and most folks
that are in jails, they eitherhave very short sentences, or
they're awaiting trial. Andtheir trial could be yes, you're
released, their trial could alsobe you're going to prison. So

(11:07):
there's a very different evenenergetically, there's a
different feel. It's not a it'snot a settled place. It's not
meant to be a settled place. Andyou can feel that when you walk
into hold a class.

Clay Tumey (11:18):
Most people who were there were in the free world
very recently.

Laura Hooper (11:21):
Correct. And some might be in the free world very
soon. Yeah. So it's almost likenot quite the right thing to
say, but almost like one footstill in the free world. And one
foots not. So it's you canimagine how unsettling that can
be of like, Am I really here? Isthis my life moving forward? Or
am I about to be in prison? Oram I about to go home? So it's
not the same? Here? I'm facingyears, or I've already been here

(11:45):
years?

Clay Tumey (11:45):
Do you sense higher levels of stress there?

Laura Hooper (11:48):
I think there's I think there's more capacity,
generally in prison to hold thestress, I don't think the stress
is more or less, I think beingincarcerated, and not being in
the free world. And in a lot ofways, having your dignity taken
your humanity. I don't know howit can't be stressful, even if

(12:10):
you can't feel it every minute.
But I think that there is agreater capacity to hold the
stress and anxiety in prisonthan there is in jail.

Clay Tumey (12:18):
And so then prison to finish the rest of that
description is where folks aregoing to do time. They're there
for five years. 10 years, shetried to make you laugh,

Laura Hooper (12:26):
I think so she wants to interrupt this as

Unknown (12:34):
well.

Clay Tumey (12:41):
All right. So to say. That's hilarious. We're
just outside the kitchen. And wecan see in the window, and I
thought she was given us the Ilike I'm gonna interrupt what
she did. But I thought it was tosay bye when she didn't. So
prison is where folks are doingtime they've got their sentences
510 20 without parole withoutparole. They're, they're there.

(13:06):
They are there for a while. Andjust as an example, one of the
guys in class today knows thathe won't even be up for parole
for another decade. And thereare folks in that class who know
that they don't have parole intheir future. Yeah, I get it
now. So that's that can that canbe that is one of the many

(13:26):
differences between jail andprison, do you have a preference
where you teach or where yougot?

Laura Hooper (13:31):
I think if you asked me a while back, I would
have said prison. I don't knowthat I feel that way anymore.
They're different. But I reallyenjoy both. And I know that
they're going to be different. Istill think in any space, you
can make connection and invitefolks into seeing, like, how

(13:57):
great they are. So yeah, someclasses are harder than others.
But I like both. I've spent moreof my more of my EPP guiding
hours have been in jail becauseof where I used to live. And now
because of where I live, it'sgoing to be more prison. And I
will say probably partially typestructure here for me. I am
looking forward to the change.
Like I'm just looking forward tothe shift and having more of of

(14:19):
that experience and just seeingand feeling all the differences.

Clay Tumey (14:25):
Did you have any of that with this most recent
class? Any of the change the theany of that? Or just in general?
What was this like? This classthat we just graduated today?

Laura Hooper (14:38):
This class was well, they dropped in
immediately. I mean, I wasamazed even the first centering
Not a peep in the room, right?
That's rare prison or jail.
That's just rare. It was a weirdexperience for me in that I've
been doing some traveling andgoing different places and

(14:59):
supporting programs and Sothere's some part of me that
knows, oh, I drop in, I do thisthing. And I leave. And so
there's not a, this. This one inparticular felt like so
connected for me. And so like,Wait, this is my community like
I am here, I'm going to be thisfacility regularly. And I'm
going to see these folks. Andeven when I was in a jail

(15:20):
weekly, and constantly, therewas so much turn of the
residents that you didn't haveit in. You mentioned that guy
that awesome, who said, Notawesome, it'll be in 10 more
years, but an awesome human. AndI could feel it myself of like,
oh, my gosh, this guy's gonna bepart of EPP and part of my life
for a decade, at least. Andhopefully, he's gonna get out

(15:42):
and be an ambassador and set theworld on fire and do amazing
things. But just this, there wassomething in me that I hadn't
anticipated. And I'm pretty goodat anticipation, right? But this
was just like, oh, this is thisis home, like, and so that felt,
yeah, that felt prettyincredible.

Clay Tumey (16:01):
You're going back soon, and you can expect to see
certain faces that were therethis time. And I would be
shocked if that fella wouldn'twasn't one of them. Yeah, he's
gonna be around for a while.
There's a few folks in therethat are going to be around for
salutely. Both becauseunfortunately, they have a lot
of time. Unfortunate, by mydefinition, I'm sure there are
people who don't agree withthat, that's fine. But they are

(16:21):
going to be in there for awhile. And you're going to be
going there for a while. Soyou're going to be seeing him
for a while. Which is, which iskind of neat.

Laura Hooper (16:31):
Yeah, it's kind of neat. It's um, yeah, it's, it's
thrilling. Honestly, it's Icould see, and we talked about
this, I could, we could see theshift in a couple of the folks
that had been in the class, bigshifts in several months. Just I
see the shifts in me since I'vebeen part of the FIE community

(16:52):
over the past several years. Andit's like, it's not just me,
it's this is the collective thisis what we do in community. And
I get to be in community visiblywith these folks. And that is,
that's yeah, lights me up to saythe least.

Clay Tumey (17:08):
Anything happened in this class that that was good.
Actually, that final questionfits perfect here. Was there
anything surprising andpositive? No. What is a
surprising and positive truth?
And the question, the closingquestion that we had for that.
It wasn't this morning, it wasthis afternoon, this afternoon,
where the question was, what wasthe surprising and positive

(17:28):
truth that you learned aboutyourself during this course? So
I asked you not necessarilyabout yourself, although
obviously, you can definitelyanswer that. But what is a
surprising and positive truththat you learned about this
class throughout the course?

Laura Hooper (17:41):
The it's interesting, because in one way,
it's very surprising. Andanother way it's not. I have
been around enough to see thatfolks get what we're up to, and
want this curriculum and want toheal themselves. And the beauty
of watching that happen andlike, and also for me, I love
that it's yes, we're there toGod, but it is on each person to

(18:02):
choose to take this journey. Andwhen they choose, it's
unbelievable. But I knew therewas hunger in this facility. But
the amount and the depth and thewillingness, it blew me away
like it was. When you when wewere leaving today, we were kind

(18:24):
of winding down the class andjust the When are you coming
back? How do I get in thisclass? And we had a man in
classrooms correct. And we had arecreational therapist and a
supporting on some things in forthe entire time. And they I
don't know how many of them aregoing to her and saying, How do
I get on this list? I have to bein this class

Clay Tumey (18:41):
enough that they she said, Hey, hold on me on Monday,
because I'm kind of busy. Yeah.

Laura Hooper (18:46):
And then when I said April, it was like, great.
And then the other, we got towait till April. And it's like
just that. This is not easy.
There were tears in class. Therewas. I mean, you could probably
talk to half the class that whenthey sat on the panel to explore
their type or types they weretrying out, we're all but
shaking, and just vulnerable andscared. And yet there's

(19:07):
something that keeps them comingand wanting this and wanting to
know themselves. And so while inone way I know that that's the
case, a fair amount. It's alsoshocking to me, because it's
like, man, there's half the timeI want to run away from the work
because it doesn't feel good.
And I'm shaking in it and like,Can I hold all of this? And then

(19:30):
I get in a space like that. Andit's like, oh, yeah, like, We're
all hungry for this. We're allhungry to be more conscious, all
hungry to actually get to knowourselves and it's like, it
surprises me and then it turnsaround on itself too. And it's
like, it feeds me in that way oflike yeah, I want to get to know
myself more actually don't wantto throw in the towel of of this

(19:53):
journey that is beautiful in awereally hard. Yeah.

Clay Tumey (19:59):
And An unpleasant question that comes to mind that
somebody might wonder out therein the world is what is the
point? If, you know talkingabout the guy who's, it's, he's
gonna be there a minimum of adecade before he's up for
parole, and we talk about folkswho don't have parole and the
whole range in between that. AndI, I'm convinced that there are

(20:21):
people who, even if they don'thave the nerve, or the desire to
just sit and ask this question,I think they often wonder
what's, what's the point? You'rein prison? Dude? What are you
going to do with this? What areyou going? If you learn this big
whoop dee doo, you're still inprison? What do you say to that?

Laura Hooper (20:39):
A couple of different answers. I mean, the
quick one is the person couldget out. They could be your
neighbor, it could be in your,you know, friends, family
neighborhood. I want them to bea great neighbor. Right? So
that's the easy answer. But thebigger answer for me is, I want

(20:59):
to know, I want them to know whythey got there, how they got
there, and how they heal. Themore and more I do this work,
the more the the trauma thatmost folks that are incarcerated
have experienced isunbelievable. And for me, I sit

(21:23):
back and I was where were we asa society? Why don't we know
this is happening? And whyaren't we fixing it? And why are
we helping people? If I had tolive through it, a lot of folks
that I come in contact with didI? I honestly can't imagine if
the truth of it. Like I honestlycan't imagine it. And it's so

(21:47):
unfair. And I, what kind ofstuff are we talking about? I'm
talking about adverse childhoodexperiences, I'm talking about
being beaten as children, familymembers in prison, being raped
or molested as children. And thelist goes on. And some of it's
absolutely horrific, or beingput in a home, as a toddler, and

(22:10):
never really knowing yourfamily, because your parents are
in so much pain, they can't carefor you. And then we're shocked
that people end up in prison. Sofor me, we can do better as
humans, I would love to fixeverything, I would love to be
part of fixing everything. Idon't know how to do that. And

(22:30):
sometimes I get quiteoverwhelmed with all that I'm
doing is, of course at a timeand but it's, that's, that's
what's in front of me in thismoment. And that's what I love.
And I know when someone can seethe goodness in themselves and
fall in love with themselves.
Everything in their orbitchanges. So

Clay Tumey (22:54):
it's funny you say that about orbit, because the
thing that the thought that waskind of already bouncing around
in my head that is even moreclear now is, is even a guy who
isn't getting out a man or awoman or anybody else who's not
getting out, they still haveinfluence on the people around
him, or around them, or as yousay, in their orbit. And the
idea of that positive influence.
So just take six random peopleand maybe 123 aren't getting out

(23:17):
inmates four or five, six are.
It doesn't seem like a bad ideafor one, two, and three, to help
four or five and six. Who aregetting who are possibly getting
out.

Laura Hooper (23:30):
Yeah, I shouldn't go to prison and get worse,
right? I mean, which happens alot that's common. And I think
of myself if I don't know how Iwould be if I were incarcerated,
but it wouldn't be good. Iwouldn't know. I wouldn't know
how to function, I would figureit out. We're humans, we adapt,
I get that. But it's also I canlook at and say it's not a place

(23:50):
that if I had gotten myself inall kinds of trouble that landed
me there. It's not set up in aplace that I can heal and get
through that and figure out whydid that happen? And how do I
how do I heal myself re actuallyrehabilitate so that then I can
be part of society. I don't Isee that yes, in our classrooms.
But as the whole I don't seethat being the function of
prison. And what you're pointingto is if inmate 123 and the

(24:14):
other three aren't getting outthree or three aren't. I want
all six of them to be doingwell. Yeah. Because it's a huge
impact on the world on theglobally so I guess that's,
that's where I kind of like zoomout and think whatever, whatever
transpires in 24 hours in theclassroom that we have, it's
putting goodness in the world.
And that's what I want to dowith my life. So

Clay Tumey (24:37):
yeah, I like that.
Kind of pause real quick just tomake sure we're still
comfortable enough to keeptalking. Because Are you okay, I
am okay,

Laura Hooper (24:44):
I'm a little closer to the

Clay Tumey (24:46):
this jacket is warm and I have shoes on now to where
my socks are not touching thecold hard ground. Same. I'm
pretty insulated. Yeah, so I'mgood to go. With that being
apparently 40 degrees. That'syour

Laura Hooper (24:59):
colleagues Probably like 7575 and I'm sure

Clay Tumey (25:05):
it might even be in the sick but it's we're gonna
wait. It's an easy. It's an easy20 degrees. Yeah,

Laura Hooper (25:11):
it's a comfortable 20 degrees, it's dark. So the
sun is out and there's

Clay Tumey (25:15):
no wind. No. So that also helps. And I tried as best
as I could to close this movieKurt, I wish we could describe
what we're looking at and wherewe're sitting on this patio. But
I think I don't have enoughadjectives for that. But it's an
unusual place. Anyways, back toback to prison and where we were
for this most recent class thatwe graduated today. A couple

(25:36):
weeks ago, we were here and itwas Alex wasn't able to come
there was a bit of thingshappen. Yes, they do. And that's
often a phrase that we use whenwe don't want to say other
things. But he couldn't come.
And in this time he could thisweek, he's here for day three
and day four. What's it likehaving an ambassador in the room
with you as you guide?

Laura Hooper (25:58):
Hmm. Well, I've never had it for quite this
length of time before I've hadbits and pieces. And even with
Rene, he and I did somethingthat was like kind of in
custody, like transitional typestuff. But I've never had an
ambassador in the room with melike this in person for an
entire course. I loved it. Oh mygosh. One selfishly beyond the

(26:26):
classroom, it's like there'sthis whole extra holding, like
that I felt from you and Alexboth have just like, we're doing
this together. Like not that Ijust I felt the extra partners
with you. Yeah, it just felt soshoulder to shoulder like we're,
you know, just so aligned on whywe're here. And so that feels

(26:46):
amazing. And I love that is likemy favorite time to look around
the room and either one of youspeak. And just watching all the
participants, all the residentsjust, yes, they listened to me
because I can be loud andengaging and all of those
things. But

Clay Tumey (27:04):
and because you're great. By the way, I'll say that
I'll add that piece that you'renot adding yourself. You're very
good.

Laura Hooper (27:11):
Thank you just gonna receive that. Thank you.
But man, it's just a wholedifferent. I can't speak to what
you can speak to. And yes, we weboth choose to go into prison.
On our own accord we want to bethere but I've never not been
able to leave. You have been inthat spot. Alex has been in that

(27:33):
spot. And you have chosen to goback in. And it just every time
blows me away. And it's just youare i i talk about both of you
so much when you're not in theroom. It's so funny to now have
you in the room. Even when I'mteaching Type Five, it's like,
well wait clays here. But itjust, it feels amazing in right

(27:58):
and natural. And I like I can'teven put all the words there
because it's almost like youthere's a puzzle piece that fit
together. And it's like duh,like, of course, of course this
feels better. All around betterfor me better for the
participants, hopefully betterfor the two of you feels like
it. You know, just it's it'sjust right.

Clay Tumey (28:20):
Yeah. You're reminding me of something that
happened when you were doing theoverview for Type Five. In
newer, it was well done, you'retalking throughout the point you
start off, as we do with withwith the good side of five and
what, what we love about five,and part of that is strategy
part of it is just a good idea.
But if somebody is in there whodoesn't know their type, and

(28:43):
they might be a Type Five, ifyou start with that, this is why
I left Type Five, it's easierfor them to say okay, maybe that
is me. And and then yes, you dogo through not us specifically.
But all of us when we're talkingabout the different types, you
eventually get to the stuffthat's not fun. But by that
point, you already heard all thegood stuff, and it's easy to
accept. Maybe that is me. And asyou were talking about Type

(29:05):
Five, I was just listening andfrankly just listening as
another participant in class andthen at the end of it I should
have known this was coming.
Because it always does. It's howit's how it works. You said hey,
so clay, is there anything youwould add about five? I don't
remember what I said. But Iremember I remember thinking
like I don't I don't fuckingknow like everything you're

(29:26):
saying is like you're doing Iwas thinking that you were doing
such a great job. And I wasn'teven listening for things to be
missing. It was just like thisis I feel represented. I feel
like you're saying all the goodstuff. Well, I feel like you're
representing the things that arestruggles for me well, and I
didn't it caught me off guard itreally I hope I hit that

(29:47):
somewhat well. I don't feel likeI did. But do you know what I'm
talking about?

Laura Hooper (29:51):
I do. You did hide it but I'm like my face like I
can't even not smile if I wantedto. Because like that means the
world to me because I know Dothat you don't? You're not
saying that unless you meet it.
And so

Clay Tumey (30:03):
I would say the opposite if the opposite
happens. I might even interruptyou in Plastico. actually hold
the phone for a second, please.
Yeah. So I totally didn't dothat, because that wasn't the
case. Thank you. What did I say?
I don't mean,

Laura Hooper (30:19):
um, you. I know you spoke about the generosity
at one point. You did say it didwhen I knew I caught you a
little off guard. It wasn't justbecause I know you said, you
kind of like, Nope, that wasreally good. And and then you
you said something, it mighthave been generosity.

Clay Tumey (30:36):
But even that was something that you said I was
just reiterating. Yeah. How Ifelt how it hit me. And then
might have expanded or doubleclicked as we say, sometimes.
Yeah. How how I really relatedrelate it to that. It's now it's
10 degrees out here. I can't.
Temperature Yeah, sure. Fine.

(30:58):
But anyways, yeah, I was I wastotally caught off guard and not
not an A, I wasn't zoned out. Iwas just like, I was listening.
I was here to hear I was thereto hear what what you were
saying about Type Five, it feelsreally good to watch someone
represent my type? Well, itfills. I don't know, I get maybe
other types fill this. But Ifeel like for me, I feel like

(31:20):
folks don't always understandfive all that great. And it's so
nice. When someone who's not afive, just or you know, they are
five, but I expected if they arefive. But someone who's not a
five just represent. Soundsgood.

Laura Hooper (31:35):
Yeah. And that's I mean, that's, we want everyone
to feel that every time becausethey like it's so funny because
I used to I would say this and Imeant it. But now like I feel
it, like every type is amazing.

Clay Tumey (32:01):
Hey, y'all, it's clay. And I wanted to take a
break here in the conversationwith Laura to share with you a
segment that we call our wordsof appreciation. Now, it's
exactly what it sounds like.
It's a time where we pause. Andwe pick someone within the
organization and just tell youall the different things that we
like about them love about themare grateful for all the things

(32:21):
that we appreciate about him.
And this time around, I want totell you about Sue Lambert. Now
Sue is an EPP guide. She's alsoa faculty member. She's an
ambassador for the EnneagramPrison Project. And as is
usually the case, she does manyother things within the
organization. I sat downrecently with Sue. And well, I

(32:45):
won't spoil it. But I'll saythat we recorded for a good two
hours, a nice conversation thatyou're going to hear on episode
one of season three of thispodcast, which is going to be in
about I don't know, six weeks orso. And one of the things that I
appreciate above all else aboutSue is her willingness to do the
work. And I'll abbreviate hereand you'll hear more about it

(33:07):
later on the episode with her.
But I really I admire Iappreciate the willingness that
I believe Sue has and seeingwhere work needs to happen. And
then having the courage to takethat step forward and do
something about it. And I thinkthat is a trait that we could
all benefit from. And so Iappreciate that about her. And
also with a few more words ofappreciation. Here are a few

(33:30):
other folks who have somethingto say on this as well.

Dustin Baldwin (33:35):
Hi, Sue. This is Dustin I just really want to say
how much I appreciate you andeverything and all the spaces
you're in. And it's been such ajoy to have you in my life and
be such a huge, impactful partof my journey. And EPP and my

(33:56):
growth as an ambassador to me somuch love and appreciation.

Unknown (34:01):
I appreciate Sue's sense of humor and her guiding
style and her grace andpatience. In we do the work
together conversations. I feellike I've learned so much from
her because those conversationshave never come easy to me. And
it's been a pleasure to watchSue from her earliest

(34:23):
apprenticeship in San Bruno jailwhere we were getting lost in
the halls and the deputies weretrying to tell us through the
microphones and hidden speakersin the walls how to get out of
the building at 730 at night tonow where she's training
apprentices every single round.
And all of us are learning fromhow she works with apprentices

(34:46):
and works with other guides andhow she works with participants.
So I I am grateful for Sue. I'mgrateful for what I've learned
and continue to learn from SueI'm grateful for Sue's sense of
humor. And I'm grateful for howSue bees so I love you.

Susan Olesek (35:07):
There are so many Sue Susan Susie Suzanne's in
this project. And I think we allare reflecting an aspect of each
other to the whole. And SueLambert is the part of me that
knows what we are doing isabsolutely possible. I remember
meeting her on the insidefeeling, the hope and her that

(35:28):
really mirrored the hope in me.
And, my God, if anyone has takenthis curriculum all the way into
themselves, it's this shiningambassador, I love you sue for
all you do and be and for theintegrity with which you do it
for doing the real work whenthings get extra hard. And for
staying the course and takingthis thing all the way.

Vibha Gosselin (35:53):
So these words are for you. You are so dear to
me. You will my people when Iwas when I did my GTP and the
words that come to mind for meare wisdom, strength, light and

(36:15):
love. I remember when I wasapprenticing, I had to teach the
defense mechanisms and had apanic attack and lead me know in
the night I was reading mymanual and preparing myself and
ice I sent you an email justjust telling you how I felt. And

(36:37):
not sure whether I'd you knowreceive a reply not necessarily
asking for something but justwriting to you made me feel so
good. And relaxed. My my tightbelly. And lo and behold, the
next morning, I received youremail, and I still read that

(36:58):
email sometimes when my heartsinks, and I'm doubting and and
things get difficult. So Suedoes have such a special way
with words. It's like a voice inmy head, you know, that says

(37:20):
you're okay, you'll be fine. Andfor once I actually believe
them. And that's it's it's itjust inside it feels like an
empowering glow. And it's a kindof undefinable quality of love

(37:44):
that I receive. You know,whenever I reach out to sue,
there's always a response. Andso, so lucky to be working by
your side in this project

Clay Tumey (38:08):
if you were put on the spot right now, okay, you're
about to be put on the spot.
Because Could you tell mesomething that you loved about
each day? Oh my gosh, yes. Allright, start with a just for
because that's how we do it.
That are in any order. Type

Laura Hooper (38:24):
Eight it is it's it is the aliveness. It is the
like we are on this earth for afinite amount of time. Let's
live like I love when there'seights around me that stir that
up in me. It's like yes, thereis purpose. How Type Nine is I
used to actually get out ofjealousy is the word but that

(38:46):
energy that like, just, there'snot when it's at its best. It's
not even trying. But it's thislike, there's this knowing
everybody belongs and everybodymatters. And like just peace
with that. I look at itsometimes and feel it not. Oh,
thank you for that. And, youknow, I have a bias for Type One

(39:12):
of partners Type One. Just thekindness. And these are the
things we often say but I feelit even on the rough days.
There's just this goodness inHim in every one and this week,
we had two ones in class thatoh, you can just like you can
feel the goodness it wasamazing. Type Two, I I am so

(39:38):
lucky to have Type Two in mylife. And probably the most
important person that was in mylife was my dad and he he taught
me unconditional love that's asclose to humanly possible and I
think that's the gift of TypeTwo. And I don't want to live in
a world where that doesn'texist. Type Three and it's so
funny as I do this, I picturethese different folks in my life

(39:59):
but Type threes. I feel like forme they. And I know it's It
might sound similar to seven,but it's a different flavor.
It's a very anything ispossible, and there's so much
hope, and just existing is sovaluable. And I need reminded of
that all the time. And typefours the I used to struggle

(40:25):
with type fours, I used toreally not understand. Like, why
would you stay with the heavy?
Like, why? Why would you chooseis what it felt like? And now
I'm like, Oh, thank God, becauseyou stay with me. And you helped
me see like, I mean, you heardme this week talked about some
pretty deep sadness. And now I'mso thankful because the richness

(40:46):
and the joy that balances thatout. Like, I couldn't actually
have the richness if I couldn'thave that. And I couldn't have
real heartbreak if I didn't havereal love. And I couldn't, I
don't know that I could havelearned that on my own. I'm
actually pretty certain Icouldn't have. And so Type Four
is really helped me with that.

(41:07):
Type Five, well, you're sittingin front of me. It is. This is
gonna sound it's a simpleexample. But you and I have
talked about, I don't have greatboundaries sometimes. And I have
struggled with overwhelm anddifferent things. And these
aren't new patterns. It's notjust where I find myself this
moment, this is life for me. Andthis simple things like you just

(41:31):
said, Don't do it. Like removethat app from your phone. So you
can't do it. And that's anactual thing that happened.
Correct. It's like, it's sointeresting to me. Because it's
like, in the moment, it's like,it makes sense. But then like I
think about a little bit later.
And it's like that clarity,like, yes, for you. I'm sure
that feels like, of course, butI can't see it. And so I feel
like Type Five, just, they oftenshow me the thing that's right

(41:56):
in front of my face, but forsome reason I can't see it. It's
the same when I read the wisdomof the Enneagram. I'm like this
stuff I know. But I couldn't putit on the pages like this. So
thank you. Thank you for that.
Sixers, I know we talked aboutType Six in class today. Even

(42:16):
sitting on a panel that we had,you can see the anxiety of being
in front of the room and thevery first person that sat down,
he's like, man, what else couldgo wrong sitting on piano and
kind of set it under his breath?
And I heard it, but it is like,how do you move forward? When
you have all of that going on?
That is real courage. I moveforward. But a lot of times it's

(42:38):
very, there's not all thisstuff. That's that's turning in
me of what could go wrong.
Sometimes, yes, but it's not anormal. And so I am forever
amazed at the courage and thelike we're doing this and we're
moving forward. eyes are wideopen. And I know things could go
terribly wrong. And I'm in. Andthen Type Seven, which is the
type I struggle with most. Joyis interesting, right? But there

(43:01):
is a real joy. I am I'm gratefulto be grateful. That's where I
live. And yes, my struggles arebut I'm grateful. That's where I
live. Because even in my darkesttimes, which some of those have
been relatively recent, there'sstill something in me that has
joy, and is just still amazed atlike, how did I get to be on

(43:26):
this earth? And just what couldbe possible? And yeah, so yeah,
I love them all.

Clay Tumey (43:39):
It's a good, it's a good demonstration for what,
what I think we need to, I don'tlike to use words like succeed.
But what we need to what we needto be able to do to do the work
is to be able to go through thetypes and go this is what's
good. I don't know that I coulddo that on the spot like that. I
would have to attach a person toeach type and then say what I

(44:03):
like about that person. So foreight I would talk probably
about Halida and why. And thennine and then all the way all
the way around the Enneagram.
And I will admit that I strugglewith with starting off with with
all the things that I love abouteach type. I'm impressed that
you could do that just on thespot. Of course you can I
expected you to be able to. Andalso I still find it quite a bit

(44:23):
impressive. And there's alsopeople who listen to the
podcast, I just know this is howit works, who are new enough in
their journey toward that thatserves as a mini listen to them.
And they they will connect withthat. And I I didn't know that
early on with the podcast of howit worked and who listened for

(44:44):
what reasons and all this otherstuff. And then I started
getting feedback from folks. Andso on behalf of the folks who
will hear that and it will helpthem I'll just say thanks for
running through that. That wasfun.

Laura Hooper (44:56):
That was fun. And it's funny because I can feel a
shift like that. When I firststarted guiding, I could have
gone down a list. And it youknow, I was I liked the tapes,
but it's now they're, they'relike in me and I really love I
mean, even in the classroom wehave folks that I struggle with
I started my own biases that hasnot gone away, but like, I can I

(45:18):
just I just love them like it'sYeah, it really is. It's, it's
in there now. And it's a swim init. And it's a whole it's pretty
fun to actually swim in swim andlove. I mean, actually signed me
up that sounds pretty greatcourse.

Clay Tumey (45:35):
That's hilarious.
The, I can't get this slackthing out of my head. So I'm
just gonna bring it up andfinish telling that little tiny
I even just said, I don't evenuse Slack. So many of our folks
and in the EPP verse, they useSlack. And so I don't even
remember why I suggested this toyou. But I remember there was

(45:55):
something about you know, on theweekends and being you know,
this the tech thing or tech getsin the way of us enjoying our
time away. And I I don'tremember why it got brought up.
I do remember saying just deleteit. I delete mine on Friday.
Slack talking about slack on myphone. I deleted Friday, Friday,
Friday night ish. And then Ireinstall it on Monday. And

(46:17):
anyways, so that's

Laura Hooper (46:20):
yeah, that was it sounds so small, but it was a
huge help. For me. It has beenYeah,

Unknown (46:26):
I don't even I might have even thrown it. It was one
of those things that I mighthave thrown out there as a joke
slash actual suggestion. Towhere if you're like, No, I'm
not doing that. I could go haha,but at least it's funny. But it
actually stuck.

Laura Hooper (46:38):
Yeah, it did it.
Yeah. I don't remember. Itwasn't like you were coaching
me. Your steps, Laura. But theway you said it, it was like,
Oh, yeah. Great idea. And forsome reason for me, I couldn't
you didn't give me permission,but in a sense you did. It was
just it was an interesting butthat's again, that's

Clay Tumey (46:56):
yeah, you gave yourself permission. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. That's fun. All right. Sothat's we went around the I love
getting sidetracked. Of course,we get sidetracked. Why wouldn't
it? Yeah, shocking. I do want toI want to go back to prison. I
mean, that literally becauseit's like nine or 10

Laura Hooper (47:13):
podcasts that are mentioned, to prison.

Clay Tumey (47:17):
I chose the wrong words. The right words, but
anyways, go back into prisontalking about the classes today.
We graduated, you said wegraduated how many 15. And that
was of the five who didn't staymost of those were out super,
super soon. So like people gothalfway through and quit out of
the 15. How many were firsttimers? Nine. And there were six

(47:42):
second timers correct as it's arather impressive number. Very,
yeah. And you did something wetalked about this earlier.
Actually, I was talking toSusanne and Mike and did you see
and of course I know her namebut we don't use names
unfortunately I hated that rulebut it is what it is but the
chief of mental health was inthe room with us. Did you see

(48:04):
that? She had tears in her eyes.

Laura Hooper (48:05):
I did not I was so focused on the participants but
I was so glad to hear thatafterwards. There's a

Clay Tumey (48:11):
room of 15 men graduating the class and as you
you call it out their name thisin one way it's the standard
graduation process where youhold a certificate you say their
name they come up you hand themthe tick the certificate they go
through this line of peoplewhose hands does shake so they

(48:34):
shake your hand Suzanne Alex meMike and then to the chief of
mental health and then anotherdoctor chief of psychology she's
she's she try that again. Thisis why we added I can say the
first Yeah, no. Zero degreesover here. Chief of psychology
so so big wigs bigwigs at theprison I think yeah, and shook

(48:59):
their hands. And what was soimpressive about this, that's a
normal process, normal progress,however you whatever that is,
that's not was not normal isevery single person that came up
there, you had something to sayto them. And it wasn't like,
hey, great job. I believe inyou. Good luck. It was very so

(49:19):
specific that I won't even tryto remember and rephrase,
recreate what you said, but youwere speaking to their specific
life. And I saw this in you Isaw that in you. And I think
that is where Doc was touched.
What the hell? What does thatcome from?

Laura Hooper (49:41):
I love them. I see. I see so much goodness in
them Yeah, I mean, I'm I'mgetting emotional about it. And
and it's they it's I I honestlycan't put it all into words. But

(50:04):
in those spaces in those rooms,we all find a way to connect at
a level that is sacred. I don'tknow what else to say other than
I feel them seeing my goodness,I see their goodness, it's like
this. It's almost this I'm like,yes, it's reciprocity. But it's

(50:29):
this, I cannot put all of itinto words. But there were so
many men in that room this weekthat shared such deep things.
And some of them for the firsttime ever, like have said, I've
never had this kind ofconversation with a man, I've
never been vulnerable in a spacelike this. And yet they stay.
And they do. Yes, I shake in myshoes, to some extent, right?

(50:53):
Like I'm in this, I'm in thespace and got to hold the space.
But I feel like my shaking in myshoes is nothing compared to
what these folks are doing inthe space that they are forced
to live in. And the lives thatthey've led up to this point,
like, just, I'm touched, I'mjust and I'm amazed that I get

(51:18):
to be that I get to experiencethat much. I don't I yeah, I
feel like I'm rambling a bit.
But it's, you know, the, I was alittle nervous, because I wanted
to say something about each one.
And I just took a breath andtrusted the right words, but
come because I can see intothem. And I know that they can

(51:43):
see into me in a way. And I wasjust there. And I wanted them to
be seen. I wanted them to know,all of the work they've put in
over the past two weeks. It's alot of work not just in the
classroom. And they, I saw them,and I wanted them to know that I
saw them. And it was that's whatthose exchanges were about. I

(52:06):
wanted them to leave knowing ifyou're not seeing for another
five or 10 years you were seeingtoday, you were seen in this
classroom, and you are good.

Clay Tumey (52:16):
It was it was it was unbelievable. I it was clear, at
least I think it was clear. Andif I got fooled on this, then
you're better than I thought. Ithink it was clear that you did
none of that was written orrehearsed. And that it was just
dudes walking up, they stood infront of you. You didn't give
them the certificate yet. Andand then you just spoke to their

(52:40):
soul. And to the to the truth ofwho they are and where they were
in that moment was a trip.
That's pretty bad as scary. Ican imagine. And I actually
remember thinking, excuse me, Iremember thinking a few of
those. It's, it's I don't wantto say it's easy. But for
example, the one seven who justmakes he lightens every room

(53:03):
that he walks into. It's an it'san easy thing to say, you know,
and it doesn't, it doesn't takeaway from the bigness of it, or
anything else. But everybodyexperiences that. And it's easy
to say. And I don't that's notwhat you said, I'm just for me,
what I would say is like youbrighten every room you walk
into, and I love it. And thankyou for being here. And in the

(53:24):
moment, I could come up withthat immediately. Because that's
what I experienced him as everytime he walks in the room. And
then there's some other oneswhere it's like, You talk too
much. You interrupt the class,like that's what the first thing
that comes to mind. And so Ihave to fight through that to
get to the big thing. The thingthat's big for them, and you

(53:45):
nailed it. 15 out of 15

Laura Hooper (53:50):
Thank you. That was it. This is Yeah, I had to
take several breaths because Ijust thought, oh, it's to me
this is this is where my headright? You get this? And that
head center with me. What if I,what if I do the first five, and
I get those and then I lose it?
And I hurt the other 10 or nothurt but they see why did you
say great thanks to this person.

(54:13):
And you couldn't say it to me.
You know, so? Yeah, I will sayI've had I've had a very good
teacher. Yeah, yeah. I think hername. Susan, Susan, Susan. Yeah,
it's

Clay Tumey (54:29):
funny because you say that and obviously we're
joking. But I was the thoughtthat was in my mind as you were
talking just a second ago, I wasthinking that it's pretty
gangster. That's a prettygangster move to just to just
like you said, What about whatif I say something to the first
five and then hurt the last 10Or, and I'm thinking that's a
gangster. It's pretty gangstermove. And that's something that
we in the early days of EPP, Vicand Alex and I would frequently

(54:53):
say, and Elam to I don't want toleave him out because he was
part of those conversations. Alot of folks don't know him but
I do We would say that Susan isjust straight up gangster about
stuff. And it's a term ofendearment. Yeah, means it means
something very good. From fromwhere we're saying it. And yeah,

(55:15):
that was that's pretty gangster.
So, thanks. I'm glad you didthat. I'm glad I'm glad that
they got to experience that someof those some of those dudes
have never experienced stufflike that. It's always been
quick fucking, what's wrong withyou? Can't you just do one
thing, right? Like, that's sonormal that it doesn't even it
may not even sting anymore whenpeople say stuff like that to

(55:36):
them, so kudos any anythingelse. Um, from from today, we
talked with our I talked withSusanne and Mike about their
experiences in and, you know, itwas Mike's first time going in,
and it was like, he'd been therea million times. And there were
some things that were new,obviously, but his first
experience was a good one. Andanything else from this class

(55:59):
that you want to share, or eveneven beyond the class, it's

Laura Hooper (56:08):
so interesting, each class was so different. I
keep feeling and it isliterally, with each class,
especially recently. And I feltit today. And I don't know if
it's because we're in San Diego.
And now I'm here and not aslocated with you know, the local
EPP community. But I felt herehelps so much of EPP all the

(56:31):
different people, all thedifferent hands in the room. And
that keeps growing in me. Andthat. Like whoever's listening
to this podcast, you're part ofthis, I feel you, you are in
this room with us, you are partof this project. And it's really
awesome. Like we are, we are alldoing really good work. And

(56:58):
we're, we're healing ourselves.
And we're helping other peoplelearn to heal themselves. And
it's, I'm just I'm still amazed.
I'm still, how did I? How did Iget in the spot? How do I get to
actually do this? So thank youto everybody listening to this

(57:19):
podcast, like, Thank you forcoming in with me, thank you for
making this possible. Because itis it is something I didn't know
I would get to experience in mylife. And now I wouldn't know
how to live without experiencingit. So obviously, there's

Clay Tumey (57:43):
at least one person will just pretend who's sitting
there and they're like, gosh, itmakes it sound so appealing. And
so fun. And I gotta getinvolved. I gotta, I want to be
a part of that. to that person.
What do you say, even down tothe technically who to call or
whatever to do?

Laura Hooper (57:58):
Yeah, um, hello.
One, I don't have an ABC, here'swhat you do. doesn't work quite
like that? Well, shit. Sorry. Ican think of people who have
jumped right in different spots.
And like, I'm in I'm doing this,I'm gonna try this path. And
that's not it. I'm gonna moveover here. I would say, find a

(58:20):
way to roam the halls, find away to show up in spaces, see
what we're up to. And if it'snot this space, this community,
find a place where you canreally do your work. And where
you can. I mean, it's the bigthree we say, but it is. I

(58:40):
couldn't go into a classroom. IfI didn't do it and practice it.
I'm not perfect at any of it.
But self observation, selfregulation, self compassion. If
you don't have a place where youcan practice that with others.
Find it, seek it out. Maybe it'sEPP maybe it's elsewhere. But
regardless, like just find thatplace, you can't do this alone.

(59:01):
It's never gonna end. You don't,I don't think I'm gonna get
there. Keep hoping. But find aplace where you can really
practice those things and get toknow you. And then yeah, that
doesn't really answer yourquestion. It

Clay Tumey (59:21):
totally answers.

Laura Hooper (59:23):
I mean, it's not like, email. Here's my email
address you will EPP it's, it'sbecause it's so much more than
that. It's not. It's not just,you know, coming, can I come and
volunteer and hand out cookiesfor an hour? Like if that's just
not what we're up to? And don'tget me wrong. Handing out
cookies is beautiful, but like,I like cookies, but like it's, I
can't give people this very easyway. Because it's, it's more

(59:47):
than that.

Clay Tumey (59:48):
I like to ask the ridiculously simple questions
that have no real simpleanswers. And I think you nailed
it. That's perfect. That'sawesome. It's nothing further,
Your Honor. It's all like Ithink which is usually I start
with you have the right toremain silent, that would have
worked perfectly where it's nownegative 10 degrees, but that's

(01:00:11):
not the real reason I'm wrappingup. It's been about an hour. I
appreciate you sitting in frontof me and talking with me. And
and talking to the folks outthere in EPP land. Want to give
you the last word? Of course,there's no question no prompt,
just whatever you feel likesaying. First, again, I thank
you for everything this is Ireally am bummed out to be

(01:00:33):
leaving tomorrow. I'm flying toSan Jose. So it's a little
easier to land there because ofwho's there. Gonna miss being
here. And going into prison withYou. I've really enjoyed this.
I've, I've enjoyed being in theclass with you quite a bit. And
I and I mean, this one, I say, Ithink you're a rock star. I
think you're, I think you'rereally, really good. And the

(01:00:54):
dudes here in San Diego are justare so fortunate to have you.
And there's a lot of people whoprobably could be here and
you're, you're the best for it.
And that's my opinion, I don'tspeak on behalf of anybody else.
But that is my opinion. Andthat's the person who's talking
right now. So I'm for them, I'mgrateful that you will be
getting to go back regularly andsing them you're gonna go back

(01:01:15):
and what, four or five moretimes this year. Yep, five and
holy hill. That's that's justthe best. So with that, I'll
shut up, turn my mic off andturn it over to you and anything
you want to say whether it'sabout this weekend or this week
or anything, anything elsebeyond that for George.

Laura Hooper (01:01:37):
Well, what's coming up for me in the moment
is Thank you. Thanks for Thanksfor calling, Susan when you got
out.

Vibha Gosselin (01:01:51):
Thanks for being in the classroom.

Laura Hooper (01:01:57):
Thanks for being you. It's really what I want to
say. It's actually been a prettyrough couple of weeks. And when
I sit in that classroom, I see awhole bunch of potential clays,
different versions. But I thinkwhen you're in the classroom,
they see it and I really, Ican't say enough about how much

(01:02:26):
it means to me that you're here.
And I mean here in this moment,but here here, and I just
appreciate you so much.

Clay Tumey (01:02:53):
More information about EPP please visit Enneagram
prison project.org We appreciateyour time and attention today.
Stay tuned for future episodesof the podcast which you can
expect on the first Tuesday ofevery month as we continue to
tell the story of the EnneagramPrison Project.