April 6, 2023 • 44 mins
Susanne Gawreluk is a guide for Enneagram Prison Project, and her husband, Mike, has a background in telecommunications network engineering. In this episode, EPP Ambassador Clay Tumey sits down with Mike & Susanne for a conversation about graduation, new outlooks on life, and what it's like to go inside a prison for the first time.
For more information about EPP, please visit EnneagramPrisonProject.org.
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Episode Transcript
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Clay Tumey (00:12):
Hi, my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison
Project podcast. In thisepisode, I sit down with two
very special guests, Mike andSuzanne, from Minnesota. You may
recognize Suzanne, she is an EPPguide. She has been on previous
episodes of the podcast. And shelikes to make special
appearances while recordingepisodes with other people on
(00:34):
the podcast. It's kind of arunning joke that we have. And
her and her husband Mikehappened to be in Southern
California. Earlier this year,when we were programming in San
Diego, they were able to attendgraduation that day. And this
was also Mike's first time goinginto prison. So we talked about
that. And as per usual, justkind of let the conversation
(00:55):
naturally go wherever it wantedto go. A quick side note, by the
way, just so you know, at thevery beginning of this, you will
hear from executive director ofEnneagram Prison Project, Rick
Olesek. And he called while wewere checking levels and getting
all the mic stuff and the techside of things set up to record
this podcast, he he called myphone and I thought, hey, why
(01:18):
not just say hi to him and chatwith him. And I think it's fun.
It's real quick. It's realbrief. So it doesn't go on for
too long. And I thought it wouldbe a fun place to start. So I
asked him if we could use it. Hesaid yes, of course. And so
that's where we're going tostart with this episode. And I
hope you enjoy it. We're gladyou're here. Thanks for
listening. This is the EnneagramPrison Project podcast.
Unknown (01:58):
Mike, have you been in prison before? Nope. That was my
very first time. Wow, what? Youknow, that question came even on
the drive there. But I feel likeI've been there many times just
sitting with Suzanne and just inthe house during Halloween
teaching. So I have thatexperience of walking through
the yard and going through theSallyport. And all of that there
was not even any anxiety or waseven worried about it. And I
(02:22):
have part of me will talk aboutthe podcast is is I changed so
much as a young kid going, youknow, prisons are for
punishment, if you do the timedo the crime. But, you know,
this empathy of our ownchallenges and we're all human.
And in this turn of the stories,I mean, Suzanne totally does
HIPAA compliance with with thebios, but I get the gist of the
(02:43):
bios of just I would be in theirsame boat or I wouldn't I would
have duplicated the sameexperience. So the empathy is me
today. It was just wow, it justvalidated. I mean, all these
guys would be the best to hangout with and in, you know,
they're stuck for a while. So
Clay Tumey (03:00):
yeah, for a long while. Yes. You're getting all
the good podcast before I do,Rick.
Unknown (03:05):
Alright, sorry.
Clay Tumey (03:08):
Analysis sounds good. Hold on.
Unknown (03:09):
Hey. Hi, Suzanne. How are you? Hi.
Clay Tumey (03:15):
Rick, if you got an hour to burn we can do. All four
of us can do the podcasttogether. No, thank you. That's
funny.
Unknown (03:26):
All right. We'll talk more later, okay. All right.
Suzanne Myrick here tomorrow.
Susanne Gawreluk (03:34):
All right. My name is Suzanne. I usually jump
in on a podcast and kind of ruinthe moment for someone else. But
tonight, it's me starting out. Iam a guide with EPP and I help
with some faculty things. And Ihad the pleasure to go on
vacation. And part of thatincluded joining the graduating
(03:57):
class at our JD and my partnerin life is with us, and I've
been with EPP since 2017 So Ijust thought this is an amazing
opportunity to have someoneimportant into my life. Come and
share the moment and see whatthis EPP magic is all about.
Clay Tumey (04:16):
And if you think it's relevant to share what is
your Enneagram type,
Susanne Gawreluk (04:19):
my Enneagram type is for Okey dokey.
Unknown (04:23):
Hello, my name is Mike I'm Suzanne's husband. And
Suzanne's Enneagram journey hasbeen really part of my Enneagram
journey. If she came on boardand say the EPP environment in
2017, I was right there withthrough her decision and her
experiences of meeting everyoneand starting her journey with
that because I had been involvedwith the Enneagram prior to
(04:45):
classes and in Minnesota we havea chapter and was dragged into
there but I think I wentwillingly I think Enneagram was
very fascinating. It's part ofour journey in life. And Suzanne
had a background with Carolynmesas archetypes which very is
similar in nature of why peopledo things the way they do. And a
lot of it was based say maybe ona woman's perspective. But that
(05:07):
was very complicated. And thenit was always I was, there's got
to be an easier way tounderstand all of this. And the
Enneagram really kind of flowedfor me as a nice journey and
made sense of where these ninetypes and they were all part of
it. We all have tendencies. Andbeing my background I'll just
share is I am atelecommunications network
engineer and had been my career.
So I can talk in terms ofoperating systems. So I was very
(05:29):
fascinated with the humanoperating system. And to me,
this is a way to say, How can Iunderstand my operating system
because it's the way I'm wired.
It's the way I do things. So forme, it was just a natural
element. So when Suzanne gotinvolved with EPP, I am guilty
of my voyeurism of just anobservation. I am a five. Yeah.
So her. Basically I've heard herteach classes, I've heard her do
(05:53):
her meetings, and not so muchdesisted. eavesdrop, but it's
just fascinating. Just all thediscussions that people she's
met with the country, she's beento where then I love it when she
travels, because then I cantravel to kind of meet her
somewhere. But So that's been myjourney. And and that's what's
got us here today.
Clay Tumey (06:12):
And you have a perspective like that. I would
say most but actually, all of usdon't have because we're very
familiar with Suzanne, we seeher on the screens. We see her
in person, like a lot of us knowthat side. And I think only you
might know exactly how much workshe puts in to ebp. And you care
(06:34):
to take what's what's a typicalday look like from your vantage
point. Watching Suzanne, I guessis sunup to sundown, what it
feels like and maybe even morethan that. Or maybe I'm wrong, I
don't know, you tell me?
Unknown (06:48):
Well, I'm going to be guilty. Because I'm an enabler.
From an effect point, I reallybelieve in the mantra or the
mission of the Enneagram PrisonProject. So I'm actually rooting
for the success of the program.
I see the valuable work getsdone. I've seen the valuable
work the Enneagram has done forour relationship. I'm in my head
type, and I do live in my head.
And she's definitely being a forthe heart type. And it's always
(07:11):
there. But Suzanne hurt just toanswer your original question.
And what's the day to day withit is I will start up and
there'll be though, she'll dosome groundings, which is very
appropriate for the EnneagramPrison Project environment. And
then there'll be a meeting ortwo for an hour or two. And then
we'll hook up for maybe a quickboiled egg or breakfast or talk
(07:31):
cup cup of coffee. And she'srunning to a new and meeting
noon to two. And then we'll havea half hour discussion of now
effects Egyptian time. What timeis it in Minnesota? And how do
the time modules because that'sa big challenge.
Clay Tumey (07:44):
How often is it Minnesota time? Let's be honest,
not very often. It's usuallyeither West Coast or Australia
or something like that. So we
Unknown (07:52):
saw the afternoon goes to that. And then we have some
meetings at night. But she lovesit. And I support that. So but
it's a way to stay connectedwith humanity. Right now. I'm
working from home. We don't getout much. But we feel I feel
connected to the world through athrough just her workings. And
Clay Tumey (08:13):
it's nice. I mean, speaking of getting out much. I
mean, I haven't said this yet, Ishould probably set the table
and say that we're in SouthernCalifornia in San Diego. And I
know why I'm here. I'm here totalk about RJ Donovan. We went
to prison two weeks ago andagain this this week. And what
the hell are y'all doing intown? Because you didn't you
weren't you're not here in a ina professional, whatever you
(08:36):
want to call it. Right?
Susanne Gawreluk (08:39):
It's It's vacation. And so, um, yeah,
we've just needed a break. Welive in Minnesota. It's a little
chilly there a lot more snowthere than here. And so we
thought we'd come in enjoy thebeach. And you know, then I'd
say, Hey, Dana, I want to work alittle bit on some curriculum,
and then it was four hourslater, and it's like, oh, geez,
(09:01):
but yeah, you know, you bringyour love wherever you go. And
Laura lives here. And I knewthis class was graduating and
she's like, do you want to comeinto graduation? I'm like, Yes,
that is like the highlight ofthe vacation and to be able to
bring my again because I don'tknow that most of our our people
that support us in our lives,get to see the inside of really
(09:25):
what we do. We can talk about itafterwards. And to sit in the
room today, just for me isalways humbling and gives me
faith for humanity and potentiallike we all have potential and
to have my partner to get to sitin the room with the graduates
(09:46):
and hear their retrospective onwhat they experienced is it is
magic. Yeah,
Unknown (09:53):
I agree. And it's I want to I want to know a lot
about your experience today andwhat you thought and I am
looking at a piece of paper Iwant notes on the paper to the
notes that you have from today.
But to be honest, more thananything I want to know Mike,
what was this was your firsttime going into prison? Right?
Correct. And you've heard aboutit, you know, you said, you've
you've had this, you felt likeyou've been there even without
being there and all that stuff,but walking through the gates.
(10:15):
And for those who've never beenthere, there's a few gates that
you walk through. First of all,getting clear to get in is a
pain in the ass in the firstplace. So it doesn't make no
mistake, or at least it is forex cons. I don't know about for
those who have never been toprison. Or at least I'm assuming
you've never gone. I wasdisappointed. We didn't get
searched on the way through. Youwant to go down? Yes, I was
prepared for that. I know thesecret on that. By the way, if
you want to get patted downliterally anywhere at the
(10:37):
airport tomorrow, if you wantTSA to check extra thoroughly. I
know how
Clay Tumey (10:44):
you can borrow my personal ID from when I was in
Texas. But I always keep that.
Have you ever seen that? No.
Yeah, I keep that with mypassport. And my passport
obviously being right here.
That's
Susanne Gawreluk (10:55):
Texas offender. Clay Tumey. Yep. This
is your ID
Clay Tumey (11:00):
that was my ID in prison. That's that is the the
you know, I can travel withthat. I could take that through
TSA and that would ever beacceptable. Who knew I explained
how handsome that fellow is inthat picture right there. Good.
Unknown (11:13):
grabbable. Makeover one on one.
Clay Tumey (11:16):
There's a reason that this is a podcast and not a
video. So disappointed that youdidn't get the pat down. I get
that makes sense. We walkthrough a few gates and then
we're walking through the yard.
Walk me through your experiencetoday. First time being in
prison?
Unknown (11:29):
Well, I expected there'd be the log jam just
entering through in the time andthen staring at your ID and
that's, that's like a TSAexperience. But that is a good
question to ask. Because as soonas the security door open, and
we got out to the yard. I didn'tknow how I'd react to that. But
it was a very expansive yard. Sothere was people spread out all
(11:49):
over. So as we begin the walk tothe classroom into that section,
I was looking around, but justit seemed like a very friendly
place. I never felt any, Iusually can feel it. I am a head
type. But I do have someguttural feeling or instincts
when you're in an environmentthat feels dark or whatever. But
I didn't feel that. And I thinkthat was mostly to the
(12:10):
expansiveness of our JDSenvironment, versus I was in a
really busy yard. But that afterwalking through there and going,
it's pretty it's pretty calm.
And then we once we got to thebuilding, then it seemed like a
very relaxed environment. Sofrom there was just a matter of
just meeting the students. Andyeah, going from there.
Clay Tumey (12:28):
And by the building, the mental health building is
where we held classes this week,and a couple weeks ago, as well,
where we hold most of ourclasses actually. And we go in
there, we set the chairs up, wedo our thing, and then we wait
for the folks to come in. Whatdid you experience if anything,
you when when the we sayresidents, we say participants,
to the to the folks who don'tknow, we're talking about people
(12:49):
who were locked up inmates whatwhat was the experience of
having them just gradually comein and introduce themselves and
sit down and stuff like that.
Unknown (13:00):
I was excited to meet him. And Excel, I've had a
physical change in my attitude Iwould have if this would have
happened five years ago with Ijust would have Suzanne just
joined EPP and as I go with herto a to a yard or a prison and
experience that I would reallyhave had high anxiety and it
would have freaked out. Butagain, I've heard so many
(13:21):
stories of successful classesand in, in people with
background and maybe violentpast now how they just, this has
changed their life. So I've it'sreally changed the color of my
rose colored glasses or to wherethey are either open up or
darkening up. But I've I'vereally changed my view to really
be empathetic to people. Andthey're just people that have
(13:45):
the same journeys and issuesthat I have in just so I'm just
rooting for them just to findpeace. Because, you know, I'll
talk back to I mean, a commonthing that this is biography
that a lot of these classes havein the right your childhood and
it's just in I had a very whatwe call the very peaceful middle
class in southern Minnesota. ButI still there was still conflict
(14:06):
in my family, there was stillthese angst and there's still
these demons that I've beenchasing all my life and they
affected me greatly. So I forsome reason, I just feel very
empathetic and was just excitedto meet them. And they met my
expectations. So they were tall,short, big and loud and quiet.
There was just a really a mix ofany any normal group that you'd
come across.
Clay Tumey (14:27):
So the stereotypical prison inmate big ask tough guy
that you'd be scared of thathold does that hold true or not
so much today?
Unknown (14:35):
It was the farthest from that had vision. A big
scary. There was a lot ofvulnerability people talking
about their vulnerability. Yeah.
And that immediately lowers thedefenses or any predisposed
dispositions.
Clay Tumey (14:50):
You said a phrase earlier it's one of my all time
in your quoting past people andall this stuff. So what your
phrase but it's a phrase, it'sone of my all time biggest
triggers I think and the waythat I hear most often is, if
you can't do the time, don't dothe crime. What what does that
phrase mean to you now versuswhat it might have meant?
Unknown (15:12):
In the past?
I will repeat my bias growing upas a kid, is that right? There's
right there's wrong. If you dosomething, a crime, whether it's
non violent or violent, isyou've done it, and you need,
you need to be punished or dothe time. And that and that was,
(15:32):
I mean, that that was kind ofjust, there's right and there's
wrong, that it's black, and it'swhite. But over time in my mom
was very much a loving, I mean,often use the term liberal but
very lightened, and that aromasas people have issues for the
society may cause problems, orthe neighborhood may cause that.
And it's like, oh, okay, I mean,I really didn't think about it
until I started getting involvedthe environment of the Enneagram
(15:54):
Prison Project, and start doingmy own work. And when you start
looking at wow, I mean, we areall flawed, and we are all
beautiful at the same time. Soit's enabled me to just, I've
really changed my mindset, thereis things that you definitely
need that are right and wrong,there's definitely things that
need to be time sent. Spent. Butyou know, I've gone away from
(16:19):
just anything and everything towhere if that's non violent, or
drug related, it just changed mewho I'm pretty conservative
person just to really, again,the term empathy, not just
sympathy, like, Oh, it's toobad. So sad. But it was really
like, wow, I mean, I couldreally if I was in their
situation, or if I had a roughchildhood, where people didn't
care about me, or how would Ireact. And I would probably have
(16:39):
reacted pretty much what they'veall done with a lot of pain. And
the more you've learned that, ifyou're in pain, you'll treat
other people in pain, so. Soit's just the empathy would be
the biggest that just changed myworld of the way to look at
people is it's the beginningback to Susanne and I's
relationship of just theEnneagram itself. There are just
(17:00):
ways were wired, and we'redifferent. So I can't judge
somebody just on their behavior.
It's really going that extramile understanding the whys that
does matter.
Clay Tumey (17:09):
I wrote a paper when I was, I think, 15, maybe 16. It
was one of my years in the ninthgrade, make all kinds of run
together. There was a few ofthem there. I wrote a paper
about about crime, and what weshould deal with criminals. And
in my mid teenage brain, Iliterally said if you if you
(17:29):
can't follow the rules out here,and if you can't learn how to
function the way everybody elsedoes, I was pretty severe with
my opinions on that. I thoughtthat not only should people go
away, but it was like, you know,California has the three
strikes, you're out. I was moreof a one striker. Like if you
just if you can't be out here,then farewell. You don't you
don't get to come back. And it'sso bizarre and bizarre is two
(17:53):
nights. It's embarrassing,honestly, to read, like the way
that I used to think aboutthings because it's so, so
wrong, first of all, and it'sjust kind of silly, like the
lack of, of the way I say it,the lack of give a shit about
other people that I had. Andthat's a bummer. It's a bummer.
I'm glad I'm not like that. Now.
It's in it's ironic that Ibecame the person that I was
(18:16):
writing about and how I didn'tdeserve to be around and all
that stuff, which is my own junkthat I had to work through. So I
don't know. What are youthinking about over there?
Susanne Gawreluk (18:27):
I just was listening to Mike and when we
got to the Sallyport and we'removing through i I don't what is
it? Like when we got in theyard? I just feel a relaxation
within myself. And it's like,Alright, here we are. And I'm so
excited to get in the room andhear like the magic like hear
(18:48):
the transformation. How did thisprogram affect these individuals
and knowing that Laura wasrunning this class, I know her
heart and how she holds thisprogram and to get to sit in
witness her do her work magic,do her work and hear from the
students I kind of didn't forgetthat you were there like I
(19:11):
started was like walking wayahead and then we're going to
use with Come on, let's go comeon, get up here. And then
getting in the classroom to whenthe students were coming in the
room I shaking their hands and Imean, they allowed us to enter
into their last day of theircourse that sacred space and and
that takes I don't know,beautiful part of humanity to
(19:36):
let people come into your spaceand then be vulnerable with us
being in the room too. So justshaking them and thanking
shaking their hands and thankingthem for letting us be in the
room with them. And I was like,Well, you have Mike is here.
Like where is he? Where is hesitting? What's he doing? Is he
you know, backed up against thewall? Is he sitting in his
chair? Where is he? So I canlose myself in what I have Seen
(20:00):
and had the privilege to be partof, in these years with EPP and,
and there at all was laid out infront of us and to have both you
clay and Alex in the room forthe men. I mean, that is the
foundation of what EnneagramPrison Project is built on is,
we are all human, we do goodthings, bad things, ugly things,
(20:23):
beautiful things. And it's allwelcomed, and we can heal. And
they share that in the mostbeautiful ways. So I just felt
really humbled and privileged toget to be part of that.
Clay Tumey (20:37):
There were five of us walking in together, you and
Laura are together. And thenAlex, Mike and I were a little
little back, walking a littleslower. And I kept I had to
fight the urge, because I wantto tell you like, Oh, look at
this mural, look at thispainting, look at this thing
that you probably didn't expect.
And, and you know, the dog overhere and this in the, you know,
the soccer ball and all this.
(20:57):
And I did it a couple times. Butfor the most part, I'm thinking
just play just shut the fuck up.
Because I know, in my shoes,that's what I don't want some I
want to take it in myself. Andso I hope I did that somewhat
well, and even in the class withyou talking about the sacred
space, and, you know, allowingus in and and we've been there
for most for all their classes.
(21:21):
So it's I mean, I'm alreadythere. But tell me if this is
accurate, because the way that Iexperienced today with with two
new faces in the room, is itdidn't to me, it didn't so much
seemed like they permitted youor allowed you or anything like
that. But it was like awelcoming, like a cool, come on
in that. Do you feel that? Ordid you feel that?
Susanne Gawreluk (21:42):
I think that comes with like when I'm in that
space, I'm Type Four withdrawaltype. So I would have been happy
to sit in a chair and push back.
And I don't want to miss thejuice, I want to be part of the
healing, I want to weigh in andhear what they have to say make
their space stay as safe of itas it was before be part of that
(22:04):
container. And so I'm sittingand listening to fellow Type
Four talk in the class and Icould finish their sentence, I
can hear what's coming next outof them. And that's magic.
That's amazing that this toolworks that way.
Clay Tumey (22:23):
And to describe to the listener, the room size, I
would say is roughly like 10feet by 20 feet, maybe 1520
feet. And so there's 20, maybe21 or 22 of us in there. And our
chairs are arranged in thecircle to outline the perimeter
of the room. So we're sittingshoulder to shoulder and there's
no, really there's no front ofthe room, there's no back of the
(22:43):
room we're sitting next to you.
And the way that we the way thatwe set the seats up. It's not
the five of us sitting intogether, we're just kind of,
we're just kind of randomlysitting out to, to really, to
demonstrate that we are equal,we're all together. And so
you're literally sittingshoulder to shoulder with folks
doing time that you've never metbefore,
Susanne Gawreluk (23:06):
right and coming into the class, one of
the first things we do is askeveryone to ground ourselves and
close your eyes. Okay, come oninto a room of prisoners that
you don't know you've never met.
And now close your eyes. Andboth times when we did our
grounding at the beginning. Andthen back after our break both
men on my side, sitting to theleft and to the right of me. We
(23:28):
were breathing in unison, likewe're that close together, our
shoulders were breathing in andout touching just lightly. And
we're all in this human souptogether. And that's beautiful.
Doesn't matter what we did onetime in our life or two or three
(23:49):
times in our life that God is inthat room. It's at do you want
to sit down and wake up to whowe are to who we can be? Whether
that can be day is with a lifesentence? Or? Maybe not. I know
the men were so excited to sharewith us that two of the
gentlemen that had been inprevious classes, have their
(24:10):
life sentences commuted. Andthey are out there free. Yeah.
And I hope to have them over
Clay Tumey (24:19):
here actually, there you go. Know where they are.
Susanne Gawreluk (24:23):
And what a beautiful celebration, because
everyone in the room could be myneighbor. And if they are and
they're taking time to be out ofsociety. How can we help that
be? moment in time of learninginstead of sitting? And what?
No, grow? Wake up? Learn? We're,we all have that potential.
Clay Tumey (24:48):
I'm gonna brag on you right now. Because when you
said that word neighbor itreminded me of something you
said today. That was just one ofthe coolest damn things I've
ever heard when you're when youwere given a bit of towards the
end the day After graduation,all this stuff, and I don't
remember all of what you said,but what I definitely remember,
as you saying is that I hope youcan be my neighbor one day. And
I thought holy, and it's sobelievable. I 100% believe that
(25:12):
she meant that not just as afigure of speech, but that you'd
be down for that.
Susanne Gawreluk (25:15):
Absolutely.
Yeah, like, I mean, with theEnneagram we're all in a prison
of our own making. You hear itall the time when you're around
EPP people. And it, it is sotrue. And one of the students
today was sharing how, you know,been through really hard times.
And this class really has wokenme up to see that I have
(25:36):
something to offer and each onein their own way did share that
from their own type structure.
And the chief of mental healthwas in the room, other people
were in the room and, and I sawtears in her eyes as the men
came up and, you know, had theirhands they were, you know, shook
(26:00):
their hands. And Laura sharedher beautiful appreciation for
what that person brought intothe classroom.
Clay Tumey (26:06):
She had something to say about every single person.
And I think that might have beenwhat, what brought tears and
leave names out. But with thechief of mental health there,
too, that's got to be unusual tosee a program come in. And for
somebody like Florida to handout certificates and give very
specific individual feedback,gratitude, appreciation, and all
(26:28):
that. And it was not cookiecutter it it was specific to
that person's soul. And I didn'tsee her I didn't see the chief
mental health tearing up. Iwasn't in the right position for
it. But was that when she wasdoing that? Yeah, that's good.
She here's the worst of theworst. Like the stories of those
dudes doing time there. She'sheard. She's heard some pretty
(26:49):
nasty stuff. And so forsomething like that to move her
pretty gnarly,
Susanne Gawreluk (26:55):
it's that speaks to the work and it speaks
to how EPP. We come in to sharea program but we're guides.
We're not teachers, or guidingwe're on the path together. And
it's today tomorrow, always. Imean, Mike introduced me and
(27:15):
said, What did you say, Huh?
Unknown (27:18):
Oh, that one was asleep on the cutting table. If I may
interject my experience when I'mwalking in the room? And is just
are they going to have glassyeyed? Am I going to be treated
like an outsider? Or why whatright do you have to be in our
space? I know this intimatespaces. You know, this is a
holding tank of everyone, youknow, talking all week and
(27:40):
sharing their experiences, butthey all smiled at me tall, Big
Short, then they're allwelcoming. And in anyone sitting
next to me we exchanged namesand, and hello and, and I felt
very, very welcoming. Then Alex,the CO guide here of the class
along with clay was so kind todo the grounding, thinking of
frozen ice because I had metAlex a few years ago and invited
(28:03):
him to come back ice fishing anddo some ice fishing with him to
drill a hole and an awesome fishout so so that was a very Thank
you Alex, for that if you listento this, that meant a lot to me.
So So from there on, I was I wasin a happy place among people
that I felt comfortable withpretty easy to forget you're in
prison hidden. Yes. And it wasjust it was just another class
(28:23):
and other Enneagram sharing ofideas and talking types. But I
did have a chance to sayimpacted by Suzanne and myself
relationship being husband andwife. You know, if you have
somebody do things or dosomething irritating, you know,
you may think, Oh, they're justdoing that to be mean to you. I
use the term, asshole. Yeah.
They could get realistic, goodreal term or whatever. But you
(28:45):
can get upset with people, ifyou really don't understand
they're motivated, they could betrying something really kind to
you. And this is a far fetched,but it's just again, why would I
love being in an environmentthat I love. The underground
prison work is just, I think andFrankel's book of Man's Search
for Meaning. But he talked abouta guard that kept putting
beetles in in a guy's throat,shoving it down his throat and
(29:08):
in the intent there was to keepthem alive. It wasn't to
persecute them. So again, it'sthe intent. So the Enneagram has
helped me in our marriage justjust to say, yeah, it came from
her heart. So I mean, that'spretty authentic to begin with.
But it she's not, it's not aimedat me. It's her type. And as my
journey is to be very loving andaccepting that and say, and
(29:32):
we've talked about that breatheand what's going on with you,
dear and to help that but solet's make a long story short is
I probably said too many thingson that opening line or
whatever.
Clay Tumey (29:44):
I thought it was perfect. It is so it's so easy
to I mean, I we've hung out.
I've stayed at your I mean,we've met and I've literally
stayed at your house. So Ialready know you but even if I
didn't that introduction, ifyou're so damn likable, already
and in that moment is It's justit's even more so in the, by the
way, for case this didn't comeacross, clearly, the entire room
erupted in laughter. When yousaid that, and it was, and you
(30:08):
didn't really back down on iteither, like it was it was, you
know, it was there were somefunny comments made, but it was,
I love it. I wish I wasrecording. They don't let me
take mics on the inside. So
Susanne Gawreluk (30:23):
I will just share exactly what was said. So
it's on my record.
Clay Tumey (30:29):
The B button reading
Susanne Gawreluk (30:33):
something along the lines of, you know,
I'm thinking somethingendearing, is going to come out
here.
Clay Tumey (30:40):
Kind of was honestly,
Susanne Gawreluk (30:42):
from the standpoint of Suzanne, and I
have, you know, been using theEnneagram. We've been together
for many years. And, you know,sometimes she can come on
process an asshole. And that'swhen the laughing started. And
but that doesn't mean that. Andthen I gave him the luck, the
(31:04):
luck. And he said, and it willbe a cold ride home after that.
But it will not be
Unknown (31:10):
it's that's honestly anything for a laugh.
Clay Tumey (31:14):
Definitely gets a laugh and that it's those
moments are so appropriate. Andso needed. In my opinion, at
least, you know, I thought itwas I thought it was great. We
got to see a couple panels todaythere was there was a little bit
left in the going through thetypes in and I think Type Six
and Type Seven were left fortoday. So So you got to see a
(31:37):
panel on the inside, which mostfolks don't ever get to see. And
we there's a lot of stuff thathappens on Zoom. There's a lot
of stuff with the ambassadors,all that stuff. And I know
you've probably seen a fewpanels maybe even done a few
panels on in size. But Mike I'mactually curious what what was
it like watching a panel ofsixes or and or sevens like
(31:59):
answer questions about theirtype and how it relates to their
childhood and all that stuff?
What What was that experience,like, if anything,
Unknown (32:07):
as I watch the both with a sixth and the seventh
panel, but I've actually beenthrough panels before from an
observer when I spent the yearwhere every month we go through
one type, and then sit on a longpanel with that. So I was
experienced with the background,I spent most of my time actually
because I liked the I liked theguys that were part of the group
and I was rooting for them toidentify in, you know, in full
(32:31):
disclosure, I could find someonethat was in doubt of their type
and their confidence to speak oftheir true feelings. But you're
you're hoping that they canresonate and then get that out.
So I was more of a I was justfrom a cheering it on because I
was rooting for them that theyfound their home or in their
type. And and one thing I wouldhave loved to bid on a five
panel because it is fun to bearound people that are your type
(32:52):
and to hear about it. And youjust need to hear that once in a
while. You're not alone outthere. So it had been fun to be
able to fill a couple of fivesalong with clay, who is to be on
a panel someday with that. Yeah,I think panels are awesome. I
mean, that's truly it's trulywhere you get to think that's
really puts it into actionbehaviors and the environments
(33:13):
that you're in and how youreason react to that, especially
with the seven was a veryamazing discussion today. Yeah.
And one of the one of theparticipants really took that
that forum and was able toreally express themselves. And I
think that was very therapeuticfor that person. Yeah,
Clay Tumey (33:28):
I agree. And I don't mind speaking about a little bit
more specifically the one of thestaffer who was in the room with
us. We had a staffer. And they,they, they, they were kind of
there to help like with thetechnical side of things and
with videos. And if we neededanything they could help us. But
the first day of class, the thatstaffer didn't decide they're
(33:52):
invited to be a part of theclass. Like if you're here, you
can be in the class. And theythey said, Well, I don't want to
intrude on the the residentsexperience. So leave it up to
the to the residents to decidethat. And I think that the
staffer was hoping that theywould say no, we don't want you
so that the person could sitout. And the opposite happens.
(34:16):
Oh, hell yeah. And because likeyou say, there, it's a welcoming
environment more than more thanI could really describe. You
just have to experience itreally to know how welcoming
that room is. And so they toldthe staffer, of course, yeah,
definitely. And so there was alittle bit of reluctance. And
there was there was some buildup, which I'm assuming that's
what you're talking about. Yeah.
And so up till today, and theythey are a Type Seven, and they
(34:37):
were on panel today. And it waslively. There was a lot of there
was there was there was it waswell seven often is lively
anyways, but our our staffer waswas saying some very specific
things in that environment. LikeI know they were saying, I
paraphrase here but I get Sit ona lot. And I just take it, I
(35:00):
take it and I take it. And ofcourse, that's part of the demo
with seven. Right. And, and justgoing through the details of
what that experience is like,was pretty eye opening. And I
actually think that some of thesome of the folks who were
incarcerated in that in thatroom, I think, I think some of
them didn't realize that that'swhat that staffer experiences.
(35:22):
And there were some reactions tolike, Man, this that shouldn't
happen. Not from this group, oneof one of the guys actually said
that. I didn't know that thatmakes that makes my blood boil.
Yeah. And that didn't happen.
Yeah. From anybody in thisgroup.
Unknown (35:37):
Yeah, that's the total take away. Was that the same
she's able to share? And thatwas therapeutic for her. But it
was very apropos to use a crankyterm. But that was really
indicative or indicative of aseven. Exactly, just to rephrase
what's happening to you, becauseyou want to rephrase it, not to
really to be paying in pain.
Yeah. But my favorite thing was,I really got excited about her
(35:58):
sharing it. But as you say, clayin the room were to a person
that's unacceptable. Thereaction they could feel they
were they had a gut punch going,Wow, that is not cool. Yeah. And
they felt for total empathy. Andfelt Wow, walking in her shoes.
So that was a good chance toturn the table on. On a person
(36:18):
there that normally is handsoff, or emotionally unavailable
in that, but I felt thatconnection there. I think her
life will be different. I agreehere on out and that yard and
those people, there'll be arespect, kindness. Yeah.
Clay Tumey (36:37):
Yeah. And again, it's one of those things that
you don't it's not somethingyou'd see in a Hollywood movie.
It's not something you wouldexpect about prison life, where
the inmates go, Hey, what thefuck? Are you serious like us?
And and, by the way, her titlethere is they, they have a bunch
of recreational therapists, theyliterally play to play therapy,
(36:57):
which is amazing, by the way,and it hurts even more to think
like you're here to, to, firstof all, be a therapist, but also
just kind of do it in a playfulway. And that's how people treat
you like No, hell no. Yeah.
Susanne Gawreluk (37:14):
I really appreciated in my experience in
doing the panels on the inside,while safe from the public side,
usually public panels with TypeSeven are the more stereotype
like, yes, we are about thefreedom and the joy. And let's
have fun and here and there andeverywhere. And yeah, we've
heard that all before. Okay, solet's, let's go a little bit
(37:36):
underneath that. And often, theType Seven panels are really
somber. Like, no, I have thepain, but the reframe is how I
get through it. And so it wasjust so poignant to listen to
her share the shit she takes,day after day after day, and
how, and I can reframe it, and Ican and it's like, man, God
(38:00):
bless you that you have thatskill for yourself. Because for
most of us, that istraumatizing, for all of us.
Actually, that is traumatizing.
And so for her to have thefreedom and the safety in that
room, to share her actualexperience not have to be the
therapist hat. That was that'sthe humanity that makes what EPP
(38:22):
does special in that Laura wasable to hold the whole group in
the safety of the container toallow her to have that freedom
to have the men receiver thatare also of that type. And Laura
brilliantly could turn to theRomans, can you hear what she is
saying here. And like you said,it was like a gut punch. We all
(38:46):
could feel it from her. And thatthat's the sacred work. So it
really makes getting to comeinside and do the work inside
ourselves inside a prison. Likethat is where the work is. And
that was an epic thing to get tosee. Because that's not normal.
anywhere on campus. Yeah. And Iwill say that Sterling prison
(39:12):
does have staff that has takentheir two first classes that it
was lucky to be part of. And themen would share that having
learned the Enneagram they nowdon't see the arrows and CEOs
and people on staff as theassholes that just tell them
(39:34):
what to do and where to go doit. But that they are people and
so when it was COVID and therewas locked down and staff were
coming in to have to work a 12hour shift and then being told
at the end of the their 12 hourshift now you're on a 16 hour
shift. And they the studentswere saying sharing, I felt
horrible for them that theirfamily was expecting them to be
(39:58):
home after 12 hours, and nowthey're there for 16 hours.
That's that's the leveling ofthe playing field of us being
human beings. Does it matterwhere you're living? Does it
matter matter where you've been?
Yep. To one point it does. Andto another point, no, it
actually doesn't, if we all canjust be human and learn and grow
(40:21):
from each other. So I just likea shout out to the minute
Sterling, they've done somereally deep, beautiful work. And
it's not only heal healing eachother, but it's healing a
culture that can be prettyviolent, dangerous, unsafe, and
giving there at least a field ofsome hope within that
(40:43):
environment. I want to be partof something like that. Yeah,
Unknown (40:46):
for sure. I hope I get to come back. We have quite a
few more programs here thatwe're going to be doing this
year. And I hope I get picked.
Because I love it. I love ithere. I love the guys here. And
I don't tell everybody that it'sI believe in folks, I tell them
that I'm hoping for them thebest and all that stuff. I
really do love the guys here.
We'll wrap up soon. This isabout how long it takes for 45
(41:09):
ish minutes to go by.
Clay Tumey (41:11):
That doesn't take that long. Any anything?
Anything you want to include,we're not limited on time, by
the way, I got 40 Somethinghours I can record so I don't
want to make it seem like I'mwrapping it up if you don't want
to put anything from the daythat I didn't ask about or that
you'd like to share or anythinglike that.
Unknown (41:30):
For me, Mike personally, it was a very
wonderful experience. You know,I've had a chance to have a
chance to really sit back andand think about it being a head
type because that's what you do.
Because I'll sit back and butyeah, I mean the day was just
seemed like another day ifSuzanne at work and I just
haven't the chance just to justto be part of it. So but again,
(41:50):
the sharing the kindness of ofeverybody in the room. And just
the environment here at our JDwas just spectacularly welcoming
and nice. So it was not scaryfor me. And I maybe in the next
experience may be scarydepending on if there's a fight
in the yard and all heck, youknow, in a lockdown and Rob, but
(42:12):
that was the farthest thing. AndI guess that was my biggest
surprise was how there was nodrama, there was nothing. But
just again, it's back to thewe're all people we're doing our
work and we're trying to figureout just what the heck we are.
Clay Tumey (42:28):
You mentioned that you just reminded me of
something that happened lastyear about that maybe that maybe
it'll be scary. Maybe there'llbe a fight or something like
that. Last year when we werehere there was a fight. And it
wasn't in our room. It was Itwasn't a fight that we saw. But
we saw it dude stumble out ofone of the units bleeding, you'd
obviously been in a fight. He'skind of stumbling perhaps a
little bit concussed. And Irecognize that immediately just
(42:48):
because you do when you've seenit. And the guys that were here
with us, I was impressed by howscared they weren't. They went
immediately to that. Oh my god,are you okay? And almost like
breaking roles that some thingsyou're not supposed to do, such
as offer first aid to an inmatewhen you're not a staffer? And
so it was actually prettyimpressed by how how that fear
(43:12):
wasn't there for for a lot offolks, and maybe it would be for
somebody else? I don't know.
It's not my place to say but yousaying that made me it was a
full flashback?
Unknown (43:19):
I will I will totally admit that. It's probably my
naivety of being outside and notbeing incarcerated before. But
just watching Hollywood moviesI'll be I'll be dead serious is
that you expect angst among whenI was walking through the yard?
I'd look at groups of peoplethat were mad at each other or
looking to get the stain whythey didn't we're not gonna
notice stain dummies outside ofcuriosity. Are there some people
(43:41):
walking through the yard
Clay Tumey (43:42):
to get any random hellos from anybody? Yes.
Unknown (43:45):
But I was but that's the biggest takeaway is they
seem friendly. They're friendlywith each other like there were
buddies at college at schoolthat could be at a work partner
in your corporate facility butthere was camaraderie there
there are people interactingagain it was racial age,
cultural differences thereinteract everyone is interacting
(44:06):
and it's like wow, that justblew me away how much how
peaceful this environment wasand I don't know whether that is
totally just having to be thatminute that day or were my my
mindset coming in and piece wasbut that was really mind blowing
for me is like how beautiful itwas of an environment versus
(44:26):
tents looking over your shoulderor feeling like you're under
microscope so that was my bigtakeaway of wow this this is not
Hollywood this Yeah, there areactually people that that are in
confined but are really civiland nice to each other. So my
Clay Tumey (44:42):
favorite phrase and all that is they're actually
people and which is something Ithink the world tries to undo.
And in the dehumanization andall that stuff is after all the
bullshit after all the stuffthat folks want to say think
push all that stuff. Don't getme wrong. There are some rock
and roll yards. There are someplaces that we couldn't do what
we did today. So I'm notpretending that that's not a
(45:04):
thing. But by and large, this isthe experience that most folks
have. And shocker, they'reactually people. I love it.
Thanks for sharing that.
Unknown (45:14):
You're welcome.
Susanne Gawreluk (45:16):
About you. I guess I just want to share that
there was just a lot ofbeautiful things at the end of
the day, and one person said, myultimate epiphany today was to
embrace my identity, and that Iam worthy. Like, oh, how does
(45:37):
that not just make you squishyour heart up? Right? And just
say, Huh, I hear you and clay,you said to the man, you know, I
believe in you. And I'm, I'mgoing to hope with you. So,
having ambassadors in the roomfrom EPP to speak, the lived
(46:00):
experience, I've been inside andnow I'm out. And you too, can
have this freedom some day isgame changer for a class to have
ambassadors inside with us. Andjust spending the last half hour
of the class having you talk tothem about what it is to be an
(46:21):
ambassador and envisioning whatcould be and who knows what can
be at RJ D. Maybe that will be atraining ground for us. To have
men on the inside become guidesor ambassadors on the inside
before they're on the outsideand just everything that EPP is
growing into and becoming. We'renot stagnant and we are here to
(46:43):
stay. So I'm so happy that yougot to come in with me today.
And I'm glad to be with youagain. Clay
Clay Tumey (46:52):
as always a pleasure. I enjoyed the hell out
of it. And I hope it's not ourlast time somewhere. It's pretty
fun. Thanks for sitting down it.
It's getting chilly or outside.
I'm not wearing shoes so maybemaybe the cold ground on my feet
this prop but I was on thank youfor sitting down. This is Friday
night you're on vacation, youfly back at what the fuck
(47:12):
o'clock tomorrow. And you didn'thave to do this. You didn't have
to sit and chat with me and Iappreciate it so much. I
guarantee I speak on behalf ofmany other people when they hear
this. You're grateful that yousat down to chat. So thank you,
and thank you to Mike appreciateit. So the final word, anything
about today could be or tomorrowor EPP or not EPP literally
(47:34):
anything start with you versusand then like
Susanne Gawreluk (47:38):
final words would be possibility. We are
here to stay and anybodylistening because I think there
might be people listening tothis if any of this speaks to
your heart. Come on in. We arewelcoming you out Johann.
Unknown (47:55):
I guess my final words would be a plug for the EPP
camping trip into Dustin andRenee and your team of committee
there. That was rock solid lastyear and as a spouse of the EPP
family. That was so awesome tomeet all of you, so please have
another.
Clay Tumey (48:26):
More information about EPP please visit Enneagram
prison project.org We appreciateyour time and attention today.
Stay tuned for future episodesof the podcast which you can
expect on the first Tuesday ofevery month as we continue to
tell the story of the EnneagramPrison Project.
Hi, my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison
Project podcast. In thisepisode, I sit down with two
very special guests, Mike andSuzanne, from Minnesota. You may
recognize Suzanne, she is an EPPguide. She has been on previous
episodes of the podcast. And shelikes to make special
appearances while recordingepisodes with other people on
(00:34):
the podcast. It's kind of arunning joke that we have. And
her and her husband Mikehappened to be in Southern
California. Earlier this year,when we were programming in San
Diego, they were able to attendgraduation that day. And this
was also Mike's first time goinginto prison. So we talked about
that. And as per usual, justkind of let the conversation
(00:55):
naturally go wherever it wantedto go. A quick side note, by the
way, just so you know, at thevery beginning of this, you will
hear from executive director ofEnneagram Prison Project, Rick
Olesek. And he called while wewere checking levels and getting
all the mic stuff and the techside of things set up to record
this podcast, he he called myphone and I thought, hey, why
(01:18):
not just say hi to him and chatwith him. And I think it's fun.
It's real quick. It's realbrief. So it doesn't go on for
too long. And I thought it wouldbe a fun place to start. So I
asked him if we could use it. Hesaid yes, of course. And so
that's where we're going tostart with this episode. And I
hope you enjoy it. We're gladyou're here. Thanks for
listening. This is the EnneagramPrison Project podcast.
Unknown (01:58):
Mike, have you been in prison before? Nope. That was my
very first time. Wow, what? Youknow, that question came even on
the drive there. But I feel likeI've been there many times just
sitting with Suzanne and just inthe house during Halloween
teaching. So I have thatexperience of walking through
the yard and going through theSallyport. And all of that there
was not even any anxiety or waseven worried about it. And I
(02:22):
have part of me will talk aboutthe podcast is is I changed so
much as a young kid going, youknow, prisons are for
punishment, if you do the timedo the crime. But, you know,
this empathy of our ownchallenges and we're all human.
And in this turn of the stories,I mean, Suzanne totally does
HIPAA compliance with with thebios, but I get the gist of the
(02:43):
bios of just I would be in theirsame boat or I wouldn't I would
have duplicated the sameexperience. So the empathy is me
today. It was just wow, it justvalidated. I mean, all these
guys would be the best to hangout with and in, you know,
they're stuck for a while. So
Clay Tumey (03:00):
yeah, for a long while. Yes. You're getting all
the good podcast before I do,Rick.
Unknown (03:05):
Alright, sorry.
Clay Tumey (03:08):
Analysis sounds good. Hold on.
Unknown (03:09):
Hey. Hi, Suzanne. How are you? Hi.
Clay Tumey (03:15):
Rick, if you got an hour to burn we can do. All four
of us can do the podcasttogether. No, thank you. That's
funny.
Unknown (03:26):
All right. We'll talk more later, okay. All right.
Suzanne Myrick here tomorrow.
Susanne Gawreluk (03:34):
All right. My name is Suzanne. I usually jump
in on a podcast and kind of ruinthe moment for someone else. But
tonight, it's me starting out. Iam a guide with EPP and I help
with some faculty things. And Ihad the pleasure to go on
vacation. And part of thatincluded joining the graduating
(03:57):
class at our JD and my partnerin life is with us, and I've
been with EPP since 2017 So Ijust thought this is an amazing
opportunity to have someoneimportant into my life. Come and
share the moment and see whatthis EPP magic is all about.
Clay Tumey (04:16):
And if you think it's relevant to share what is
your Enneagram type,
Susanne Gawreluk (04:19):
my Enneagram type is for Okey dokey.
Unknown (04:23):
Hello, my name is Mike I'm Suzanne's husband. And
Suzanne's Enneagram journey hasbeen really part of my Enneagram
journey. If she came on boardand say the EPP environment in
2017, I was right there withthrough her decision and her
experiences of meeting everyoneand starting her journey with
that because I had been involvedwith the Enneagram prior to
(04:45):
classes and in Minnesota we havea chapter and was dragged into
there but I think I wentwillingly I think Enneagram was
very fascinating. It's part ofour journey in life. And Suzanne
had a background with Carolynmesas archetypes which very is
similar in nature of why peopledo things the way they do. And a
lot of it was based say maybe ona woman's perspective. But that
(05:07):
was very complicated. And thenit was always I was, there's got
to be an easier way tounderstand all of this. And the
Enneagram really kind of flowedfor me as a nice journey and
made sense of where these ninetypes and they were all part of
it. We all have tendencies. Andbeing my background I'll just
share is I am atelecommunications network
engineer and had been my career.
So I can talk in terms ofoperating systems. So I was very
(05:29):
fascinated with the humanoperating system. And to me,
this is a way to say, How can Iunderstand my operating system
because it's the way I'm wired.
It's the way I do things. So forme, it was just a natural
element. So when Suzanne gotinvolved with EPP, I am guilty
of my voyeurism of just anobservation. I am a five. Yeah.
So her. Basically I've heard herteach classes, I've heard her do
(05:53):
her meetings, and not so muchdesisted. eavesdrop, but it's
just fascinating. Just all thediscussions that people she's
met with the country, she's beento where then I love it when she
travels, because then I cantravel to kind of meet her
somewhere. But So that's been myjourney. And and that's what's
got us here today.
Clay Tumey (06:12):
And you have a perspective like that. I would
say most but actually, all of usdon't have because we're very
familiar with Suzanne, we seeher on the screens. We see her
in person, like a lot of us knowthat side. And I think only you
might know exactly how much workshe puts in to ebp. And you care
(06:34):
to take what's what's a typicalday look like from your vantage
point. Watching Suzanne, I guessis sunup to sundown, what it
feels like and maybe even morethan that. Or maybe I'm wrong, I
don't know, you tell me?
Unknown (06:48):
Well, I'm going to be guilty. Because I'm an enabler.
From an effect point, I reallybelieve in the mantra or the
mission of the Enneagram PrisonProject. So I'm actually rooting
for the success of the program.
I see the valuable work getsdone. I've seen the valuable
work the Enneagram has done forour relationship. I'm in my head
type, and I do live in my head.
And she's definitely being a forthe heart type. And it's always
(07:11):
there. But Suzanne hurt just toanswer your original question.
And what's the day to day withit is I will start up and
there'll be though, she'll dosome groundings, which is very
appropriate for the EnneagramPrison Project environment. And
then there'll be a meeting ortwo for an hour or two. And then
we'll hook up for maybe a quickboiled egg or breakfast or talk
(07:31):
cup cup of coffee. And she'srunning to a new and meeting
noon to two. And then we'll havea half hour discussion of now
effects Egyptian time. What timeis it in Minnesota? And how do
the time modules because that'sa big challenge.
Clay Tumey (07:44):
How often is it Minnesota time? Let's be honest,
not very often. It's usuallyeither West Coast or Australia
or something like that. So we
Unknown (07:52):
saw the afternoon goes to that. And then we have some
meetings at night. But she lovesit. And I support that. So but
it's a way to stay connectedwith humanity. Right now. I'm
working from home. We don't getout much. But we feel I feel
connected to the world through athrough just her workings. And
Clay Tumey (08:13):
it's nice. I mean, speaking of getting out much. I
mean, I haven't said this yet, Ishould probably set the table
and say that we're in SouthernCalifornia in San Diego. And I
know why I'm here. I'm here totalk about RJ Donovan. We went
to prison two weeks ago andagain this this week. And what
the hell are y'all doing intown? Because you didn't you
weren't you're not here in a ina professional, whatever you
(08:36):
want to call it. Right?
Susanne Gawreluk (08:39):
It's It's vacation. And so, um, yeah,
we've just needed a break. Welive in Minnesota. It's a little
chilly there a lot more snowthere than here. And so we
thought we'd come in enjoy thebeach. And you know, then I'd
say, Hey, Dana, I want to work alittle bit on some curriculum,
and then it was four hourslater, and it's like, oh, geez,
(09:01):
but yeah, you know, you bringyour love wherever you go. And
Laura lives here. And I knewthis class was graduating and
she's like, do you want to comeinto graduation? I'm like, Yes,
that is like the highlight ofthe vacation and to be able to
bring my again because I don'tknow that most of our our people
that support us in our lives,get to see the inside of really
(09:25):
what we do. We can talk about itafterwards. And to sit in the
room today, just for me isalways humbling and gives me
faith for humanity and potentiallike we all have potential and
to have my partner to get to sitin the room with the graduates
(09:46):
and hear their retrospective onwhat they experienced is it is
magic. Yeah,
Unknown (09:53):
I agree. And it's I want to I want to know a lot
about your experience today andwhat you thought and I am
looking at a piece of paper Iwant notes on the paper to the
notes that you have from today.
But to be honest, more thananything I want to know Mike,
what was this was your firsttime going into prison? Right?
Correct. And you've heard aboutit, you know, you said, you've
you've had this, you felt likeyou've been there even without
being there and all that stuff,but walking through the gates.
(10:15):
And for those who've never beenthere, there's a few gates that
you walk through. First of all,getting clear to get in is a
pain in the ass in the firstplace. So it doesn't make no
mistake, or at least it is forex cons. I don't know about for
those who have never been toprison. Or at least I'm assuming
you've never gone. I wasdisappointed. We didn't get
searched on the way through. Youwant to go down? Yes, I was
prepared for that. I know thesecret on that. By the way, if
you want to get patted downliterally anywhere at the
(10:37):
airport tomorrow, if you wantTSA to check extra thoroughly. I
know how
Clay Tumey (10:44):
you can borrow my personal ID from when I was in
Texas. But I always keep that.
Have you ever seen that? No.
Yeah, I keep that with mypassport. And my passport
obviously being right here.
That's
Susanne Gawreluk (10:55):
Texas offender. Clay Tumey. Yep. This
is your ID
Clay Tumey (11:00):
that was my ID in prison. That's that is the the
you know, I can travel withthat. I could take that through
TSA and that would ever beacceptable. Who knew I explained
how handsome that fellow is inthat picture right there. Good.
Unknown (11:13):
grabbable. Makeover one on one.
Clay Tumey (11:16):
There's a reason that this is a podcast and not a
video. So disappointed that youdidn't get the pat down. I get
that makes sense. We walkthrough a few gates and then
we're walking through the yard.
Walk me through your experiencetoday. First time being in
prison?
Unknown (11:29):
Well, I expected there'd be the log jam just
entering through in the time andthen staring at your ID and
that's, that's like a TSAexperience. But that is a good
question to ask. Because as soonas the security door open, and
we got out to the yard. I didn'tknow how I'd react to that. But
it was a very expansive yard. Sothere was people spread out all
(11:49):
over. So as we begin the walk tothe classroom into that section,
I was looking around, but justit seemed like a very friendly
place. I never felt any, Iusually can feel it. I am a head
type. But I do have someguttural feeling or instincts
when you're in an environmentthat feels dark or whatever. But
I didn't feel that. And I thinkthat was mostly to the
(12:10):
expansiveness of our JDSenvironment, versus I was in a
really busy yard. But that afterwalking through there and going,
it's pretty it's pretty calm.
And then we once we got to thebuilding, then it seemed like a
very relaxed environment. Sofrom there was just a matter of
just meeting the students. Andyeah, going from there.
Clay Tumey (12:28):
And by the building, the mental health building is
where we held classes this week,and a couple weeks ago, as well,
where we hold most of ourclasses actually. And we go in
there, we set the chairs up, wedo our thing, and then we wait
for the folks to come in. Whatdid you experience if anything,
you when when the we sayresidents, we say participants,
to the to the folks who don'tknow, we're talking about people
(12:49):
who were locked up inmates whatwhat was the experience of
having them just gradually comein and introduce themselves and
sit down and stuff like that.
Unknown (13:00):
I was excited to meet him. And Excel, I've had a
physical change in my attitude Iwould have if this would have
happened five years ago with Ijust would have Suzanne just
joined EPP and as I go with herto a to a yard or a prison and
experience that I would reallyhave had high anxiety and it
would have freaked out. Butagain, I've heard so many
(13:21):
stories of successful classesand in, in people with
background and maybe violentpast now how they just, this has
changed their life. So I've it'sreally changed the color of my
rose colored glasses or to wherethey are either open up or
darkening up. But I've I'vereally changed my view to really
be empathetic to people. Andthey're just people that have
(13:45):
the same journeys and issuesthat I have in just so I'm just
rooting for them just to findpeace. Because, you know, I'll
talk back to I mean, a commonthing that this is biography
that a lot of these classes havein the right your childhood and
it's just in I had a very whatwe call the very peaceful middle
class in southern Minnesota. ButI still there was still conflict
(14:06):
in my family, there was stillthese angst and there's still
these demons that I've beenchasing all my life and they
affected me greatly. So I forsome reason, I just feel very
empathetic and was just excitedto meet them. And they met my
expectations. So they were tall,short, big and loud and quiet.
There was just a really a mix ofany any normal group that you'd
come across.
Clay Tumey (14:27):
So the stereotypical prison inmate big ask tough guy
that you'd be scared of thathold does that hold true or not
so much today?
Unknown (14:35):
It was the farthest from that had vision. A big
scary. There was a lot ofvulnerability people talking
about their vulnerability. Yeah.
And that immediately lowers thedefenses or any predisposed
dispositions.
Clay Tumey (14:50):
You said a phrase earlier it's one of my all time
in your quoting past people andall this stuff. So what your
phrase but it's a phrase, it'sone of my all time biggest
triggers I think and the waythat I hear most often is, if
you can't do the time, don't dothe crime. What what does that
phrase mean to you now versuswhat it might have meant?
Unknown (15:12):
In the past?
I will repeat my bias growing upas a kid, is that right? There's
right there's wrong. If you dosomething, a crime, whether it's
non violent or violent, isyou've done it, and you need,
you need to be punished or dothe time. And that and that was,
(15:32):
I mean, that that was kind ofjust, there's right and there's
wrong, that it's black, and it'swhite. But over time in my mom
was very much a loving, I mean,often use the term liberal but
very lightened, and that aromasas people have issues for the
society may cause problems, orthe neighborhood may cause that.
And it's like, oh, okay, I mean,I really didn't think about it
until I started getting involvedthe environment of the Enneagram
(15:54):
Prison Project, and start doingmy own work. And when you start
looking at wow, I mean, we areall flawed, and we are all
beautiful at the same time. Soit's enabled me to just, I've
really changed my mindset, thereis things that you definitely
need that are right and wrong,there's definitely things that
need to be time sent. Spent. Butyou know, I've gone away from
(16:19):
just anything and everything towhere if that's non violent, or
drug related, it just changed mewho I'm pretty conservative
person just to really, again,the term empathy, not just
sympathy, like, Oh, it's toobad. So sad. But it was really
like, wow, I mean, I couldreally if I was in their
situation, or if I had a roughchildhood, where people didn't
care about me, or how would Ireact. And I would probably have
(16:39):
reacted pretty much what they'veall done with a lot of pain. And
the more you've learned that, ifyou're in pain, you'll treat
other people in pain, so. Soit's just the empathy would be
the biggest that just changed myworld of the way to look at
people is it's the beginningback to Susanne and I's
relationship of just theEnneagram itself. There are just
(17:00):
ways were wired, and we'redifferent. So I can't judge
somebody just on their behavior.
It's really going that extramile understanding the whys that
does matter.
Clay Tumey (17:09):
I wrote a paper when I was, I think, 15, maybe 16. It
was one of my years in the ninthgrade, make all kinds of run
together. There was a few ofthem there. I wrote a paper
about about crime, and what weshould deal with criminals. And
in my mid teenage brain, Iliterally said if you if you
(17:29):
can't follow the rules out here,and if you can't learn how to
function the way everybody elsedoes, I was pretty severe with
my opinions on that. I thoughtthat not only should people go
away, but it was like, you know,California has the three
strikes, you're out. I was moreof a one striker. Like if you
just if you can't be out here,then farewell. You don't you
don't get to come back. And it'sso bizarre and bizarre is two
(17:53):
nights. It's embarrassing,honestly, to read, like the way
that I used to think aboutthings because it's so, so
wrong, first of all, and it'sjust kind of silly, like the
lack of, of the way I say it,the lack of give a shit about
other people that I had. Andthat's a bummer. It's a bummer.
I'm glad I'm not like that. Now.
It's in it's ironic that Ibecame the person that I was
(18:16):
writing about and how I didn'tdeserve to be around and all
that stuff, which is my own junkthat I had to work through. So I
don't know. What are youthinking about over there?
Susanne Gawreluk (18:27):
I just was listening to Mike and when we
got to the Sallyport and we'removing through i I don't what is
it? Like when we got in theyard? I just feel a relaxation
within myself. And it's like,Alright, here we are. And I'm so
excited to get in the room andhear like the magic like hear
(18:48):
the transformation. How did thisprogram affect these individuals
and knowing that Laura wasrunning this class, I know her
heart and how she holds thisprogram and to get to sit in
witness her do her work magic,do her work and hear from the
students I kind of didn't forgetthat you were there like I
(19:11):
started was like walking wayahead and then we're going to
use with Come on, let's go comeon, get up here. And then
getting in the classroom to whenthe students were coming in the
room I shaking their hands and Imean, they allowed us to enter
into their last day of theircourse that sacred space and and
that takes I don't know,beautiful part of humanity to
(19:36):
let people come into your spaceand then be vulnerable with us
being in the room too. So justshaking them and thanking
shaking their hands and thankingthem for letting us be in the
room with them. And I was like,Well, you have Mike is here.
Like where is he? Where is hesitting? What's he doing? Is he
you know, backed up against thewall? Is he sitting in his
chair? Where is he? So I canlose myself in what I have Seen
(20:00):
and had the privilege to be partof, in these years with EPP and,
and there at all was laid out infront of us and to have both you
clay and Alex in the room forthe men. I mean, that is the
foundation of what EnneagramPrison Project is built on is,
we are all human, we do goodthings, bad things, ugly things,
(20:23):
beautiful things. And it's allwelcomed, and we can heal. And
they share that in the mostbeautiful ways. So I just felt
really humbled and privileged toget to be part of that.
Clay Tumey (20:37):
There were five of us walking in together, you and
Laura are together. And thenAlex, Mike and I were a little
little back, walking a littleslower. And I kept I had to
fight the urge, because I wantto tell you like, Oh, look at
this mural, look at thispainting, look at this thing
that you probably didn't expect.
And, and you know, the dog overhere and this in the, you know,
the soccer ball and all this.
(20:57):
And I did it a couple times. Butfor the most part, I'm thinking
just play just shut the fuck up.
Because I know, in my shoes,that's what I don't want some I
want to take it in myself. Andso I hope I did that somewhat
well, and even in the class withyou talking about the sacred
space, and, you know, allowingus in and and we've been there
for most for all their classes.
(21:21):
So it's I mean, I'm alreadythere. But tell me if this is
accurate, because the way that Iexperienced today with with two
new faces in the room, is itdidn't to me, it didn't so much
seemed like they permitted youor allowed you or anything like
that. But it was like awelcoming, like a cool, come on
in that. Do you feel that? Ordid you feel that?
Susanne Gawreluk (21:42):
I think that comes with like when I'm in that
space, I'm Type Four withdrawaltype. So I would have been happy
to sit in a chair and push back.
And I don't want to miss thejuice, I want to be part of the
healing, I want to weigh in andhear what they have to say make
their space stay as safe of itas it was before be part of that
(22:04):
container. And so I'm sittingand listening to fellow Type
Four talk in the class and Icould finish their sentence, I
can hear what's coming next outof them. And that's magic.
That's amazing that this toolworks that way.
Clay Tumey (22:23):
And to describe to the listener, the room size, I
would say is roughly like 10feet by 20 feet, maybe 1520
feet. And so there's 20, maybe21 or 22 of us in there. And our
chairs are arranged in thecircle to outline the perimeter
of the room. So we're sittingshoulder to shoulder and there's
no, really there's no front ofthe room, there's no back of the
(22:43):
room we're sitting next to you.
And the way that we the way thatwe set the seats up. It's not
the five of us sitting intogether, we're just kind of,
we're just kind of randomlysitting out to, to really, to
demonstrate that we are equal,we're all together. And so
you're literally sittingshoulder to shoulder with folks
doing time that you've never metbefore,
Susanne Gawreluk (23:06):
right and coming into the class, one of
the first things we do is askeveryone to ground ourselves and
close your eyes. Okay, come oninto a room of prisoners that
you don't know you've never met.
And now close your eyes. Andboth times when we did our
grounding at the beginning. Andthen back after our break both
men on my side, sitting to theleft and to the right of me. We
(23:28):
were breathing in unison, likewe're that close together, our
shoulders were breathing in andout touching just lightly. And
we're all in this human souptogether. And that's beautiful.
Doesn't matter what we did onetime in our life or two or three
(23:49):
times in our life that God is inthat room. It's at do you want
to sit down and wake up to whowe are to who we can be? Whether
that can be day is with a lifesentence? Or? Maybe not. I know
the men were so excited to sharewith us that two of the
gentlemen that had been inprevious classes, have their
(24:10):
life sentences commuted. Andthey are out there free. Yeah.
And I hope to have them over
Clay Tumey (24:19):
here actually, there you go. Know where they are.
Susanne Gawreluk (24:23):
And what a beautiful celebration, because
everyone in the room could be myneighbor. And if they are and
they're taking time to be out ofsociety. How can we help that
be? moment in time of learninginstead of sitting? And what?
No, grow? Wake up? Learn? We're,we all have that potential.
Clay Tumey (24:48):
I'm gonna brag on you right now. Because when you
said that word neighbor itreminded me of something you
said today. That was just one ofthe coolest damn things I've
ever heard when you're when youwere given a bit of towards the
end the day After graduation,all this stuff, and I don't
remember all of what you said,but what I definitely remember,
as you saying is that I hope youcan be my neighbor one day. And
I thought holy, and it's sobelievable. I 100% believe that
(25:12):
she meant that not just as afigure of speech, but that you'd
be down for that.
Susanne Gawreluk (25:15):
Absolutely.
Yeah, like, I mean, with theEnneagram we're all in a prison
of our own making. You hear itall the time when you're around
EPP people. And it, it is sotrue. And one of the students
today was sharing how, you know,been through really hard times.
And this class really has wokenme up to see that I have
(25:36):
something to offer and each onein their own way did share that
from their own type structure.
And the chief of mental healthwas in the room, other people
were in the room and, and I sawtears in her eyes as the men
came up and, you know, had theirhands they were, you know, shook
(26:00):
their hands. And Laura sharedher beautiful appreciation for
what that person brought intothe classroom.
Clay Tumey (26:06):
She had something to say about every single person.
And I think that might have beenwhat, what brought tears and
leave names out. But with thechief of mental health there,
too, that's got to be unusual tosee a program come in. And for
somebody like Florida to handout certificates and give very
specific individual feedback,gratitude, appreciation, and all
(26:28):
that. And it was not cookiecutter it it was specific to
that person's soul. And I didn'tsee her I didn't see the chief
mental health tearing up. Iwasn't in the right position for
it. But was that when she wasdoing that? Yeah, that's good.
She here's the worst of theworst. Like the stories of those
dudes doing time there. She'sheard. She's heard some pretty
(26:49):
nasty stuff. And so forsomething like that to move her
pretty gnarly,
Susanne Gawreluk (26:55):
it's that speaks to the work and it speaks
to how EPP. We come in to sharea program but we're guides.
We're not teachers, or guidingwe're on the path together. And
it's today tomorrow, always. Imean, Mike introduced me and
(27:15):
said, What did you say, Huh?
Unknown (27:18):
Oh, that one was asleep on the cutting table. If I may
interject my experience when I'mwalking in the room? And is just
are they going to have glassyeyed? Am I going to be treated
like an outsider? Or why whatright do you have to be in our
space? I know this intimatespaces. You know, this is a
holding tank of everyone, youknow, talking all week and
(27:40):
sharing their experiences, butthey all smiled at me tall, Big
Short, then they're allwelcoming. And in anyone sitting
next to me we exchanged namesand, and hello and, and I felt
very, very welcoming. Then Alex,the CO guide here of the class
along with clay was so kind todo the grounding, thinking of
frozen ice because I had metAlex a few years ago and invited
(28:03):
him to come back ice fishing anddo some ice fishing with him to
drill a hole and an awesome fishout so so that was a very Thank
you Alex, for that if you listento this, that meant a lot to me.
So So from there on, I was I wasin a happy place among people
that I felt comfortable withpretty easy to forget you're in
prison hidden. Yes. And it wasjust it was just another class
(28:23):
and other Enneagram sharing ofideas and talking types. But I
did have a chance to sayimpacted by Suzanne and myself
relationship being husband andwife. You know, if you have
somebody do things or dosomething irritating, you know,
you may think, Oh, they're justdoing that to be mean to you. I
use the term, asshole. Yeah.
They could get realistic, goodreal term or whatever. But you
(28:45):
can get upset with people, ifyou really don't understand
they're motivated, they could betrying something really kind to
you. And this is a far fetched,but it's just again, why would I
love being in an environmentthat I love. The underground
prison work is just, I think andFrankel's book of Man's Search
for Meaning. But he talked abouta guard that kept putting
beetles in in a guy's throat,shoving it down his throat and
(29:08):
in the intent there was to keepthem alive. It wasn't to
persecute them. So again, it'sthe intent. So the Enneagram has
helped me in our marriage justjust to say, yeah, it came from
her heart. So I mean, that'spretty authentic to begin with.
But it she's not, it's not aimedat me. It's her type. And as my
journey is to be very loving andaccepting that and say, and
(29:32):
we've talked about that breatheand what's going on with you,
dear and to help that but solet's make a long story short is
I probably said too many thingson that opening line or
whatever.
Clay Tumey (29:44):
I thought it was perfect. It is so it's so easy
to I mean, I we've hung out.
I've stayed at your I mean,we've met and I've literally
stayed at your house. So Ialready know you but even if I
didn't that introduction, ifyou're so damn likable, already
and in that moment is It's justit's even more so in the, by the
way, for case this didn't comeacross, clearly, the entire room
erupted in laughter. When yousaid that, and it was, and you
(30:08):
didn't really back down on iteither, like it was it was, you
know, it was there were somefunny comments made, but it was,
I love it. I wish I wasrecording. They don't let me
take mics on the inside. So
Susanne Gawreluk (30:23):
I will just share exactly what was said. So
it's on my record.
Clay Tumey (30:29):
The B button reading
Susanne Gawreluk (30:33):
something along the lines of, you know,
I'm thinking somethingendearing, is going to come out
here.
Clay Tumey (30:40):
Kind of was honestly,
Susanne Gawreluk (30:42):
from the standpoint of Suzanne, and I
have, you know, been using theEnneagram. We've been together
for many years. And, you know,sometimes she can come on
process an asshole. And that'swhen the laughing started. And
but that doesn't mean that. Andthen I gave him the luck, the
(31:04):
luck. And he said, and it willbe a cold ride home after that.
But it will not be
Unknown (31:10):
it's that's honestly anything for a laugh.
Clay Tumey (31:14):
Definitely gets a laugh and that it's those
moments are so appropriate. Andso needed. In my opinion, at
least, you know, I thought itwas I thought it was great. We
got to see a couple panels todaythere was there was a little bit
left in the going through thetypes in and I think Type Six
and Type Seven were left fortoday. So So you got to see a
(31:37):
panel on the inside, which mostfolks don't ever get to see. And
we there's a lot of stuff thathappens on Zoom. There's a lot
of stuff with the ambassadors,all that stuff. And I know
you've probably seen a fewpanels maybe even done a few
panels on in size. But Mike I'mactually curious what what was
it like watching a panel ofsixes or and or sevens like
(31:59):
answer questions about theirtype and how it relates to their
childhood and all that stuff?
What What was that experience,like, if anything,
Unknown (32:07):
as I watch the both with a sixth and the seventh
panel, but I've actually beenthrough panels before from an
observer when I spent the yearwhere every month we go through
one type, and then sit on a longpanel with that. So I was
experienced with the background,I spent most of my time actually
because I liked the I liked theguys that were part of the group
and I was rooting for them toidentify in, you know, in full
(32:31):
disclosure, I could find someonethat was in doubt of their type
and their confidence to speak oftheir true feelings. But you're
you're hoping that they canresonate and then get that out.
So I was more of a I was justfrom a cheering it on because I
was rooting for them that theyfound their home or in their
type. And and one thing I wouldhave loved to bid on a five
panel because it is fun to bearound people that are your type
(32:52):
and to hear about it. And youjust need to hear that once in a
while. You're not alone outthere. So it had been fun to be
able to fill a couple of fivesalong with clay, who is to be on
a panel someday with that. Yeah,I think panels are awesome. I
mean, that's truly it's trulywhere you get to think that's
really puts it into actionbehaviors and the environments
(33:13):
that you're in and how youreason react to that, especially
with the seven was a veryamazing discussion today. Yeah.
And one of the one of theparticipants really took that
that forum and was able toreally express themselves. And I
think that was very therapeuticfor that person. Yeah,
Clay Tumey (33:28):
I agree. And I don't mind speaking about a little bit
more specifically the one of thestaffer who was in the room with
us. We had a staffer. And they,they, they, they were kind of
there to help like with thetechnical side of things and
with videos. And if we neededanything they could help us. But
the first day of class, the thatstaffer didn't decide they're
(33:52):
invited to be a part of theclass. Like if you're here, you
can be in the class. And theythey said, Well, I don't want to
intrude on the the residentsexperience. So leave it up to
the to the residents to decidethat. And I think that the
staffer was hoping that theywould say no, we don't want you
so that the person could sitout. And the opposite happens.
(34:16):
Oh, hell yeah. And because likeyou say, there, it's a welcoming
environment more than more thanI could really describe. You
just have to experience itreally to know how welcoming
that room is. And so they toldthe staffer, of course, yeah,
definitely. And so there was alittle bit of reluctance. And
there was there was some buildup, which I'm assuming that's
what you're talking about. Yeah.
And so up till today, and theythey are a Type Seven, and they
(34:37):
were on panel today. And it waslively. There was a lot of there
was there was there was it waswell seven often is lively
anyways, but our our staffer waswas saying some very specific
things in that environment. LikeI know they were saying, I
paraphrase here but I get Sit ona lot. And I just take it, I
(35:00):
take it and I take it. And ofcourse, that's part of the demo
with seven. Right. And, and justgoing through the details of
what that experience is like,was pretty eye opening. And I
actually think that some of thesome of the folks who were
incarcerated in that in thatroom, I think, I think some of
them didn't realize that that'swhat that staffer experiences.
(35:22):
And there were some reactions tolike, Man, this that shouldn't
happen. Not from this group, oneof one of the guys actually said
that. I didn't know that thatmakes that makes my blood boil.
Yeah. And that didn't happen.
Yeah. From anybody in thisgroup.
Unknown (35:37):
Yeah, that's the total take away. Was that the same
she's able to share? And thatwas therapeutic for her. But it
was very apropos to use a crankyterm. But that was really
indicative or indicative of aseven. Exactly, just to rephrase
what's happening to you, becauseyou want to rephrase it, not to
really to be paying in pain.
Yeah. But my favorite thing was,I really got excited about her
(35:58):
sharing it. But as you say, clayin the room were to a person
that's unacceptable. Thereaction they could feel they
were they had a gut punch going,Wow, that is not cool. Yeah. And
they felt for total empathy. Andfelt Wow, walking in her shoes.
So that was a good chance toturn the table on. On a person
(36:18):
there that normally is handsoff, or emotionally unavailable
in that, but I felt thatconnection there. I think her
life will be different. I agreehere on out and that yard and
those people, there'll be arespect, kindness. Yeah.
Clay Tumey (36:37):
Yeah. And again, it's one of those things that
you don't it's not somethingyou'd see in a Hollywood movie.
It's not something you wouldexpect about prison life, where
the inmates go, Hey, what thefuck? Are you serious like us?
And and, by the way, her titlethere is they, they have a bunch
of recreational therapists, theyliterally play to play therapy,
(36:57):
which is amazing, by the way,and it hurts even more to think
like you're here to, to, firstof all, be a therapist, but also
just kind of do it in a playfulway. And that's how people treat
you like No, hell no. Yeah.
Susanne Gawreluk (37:14):
I really appreciated in my experience in
doing the panels on the inside,while safe from the public side,
usually public panels with TypeSeven are the more stereotype
like, yes, we are about thefreedom and the joy. And let's
have fun and here and there andeverywhere. And yeah, we've
heard that all before. Okay, solet's, let's go a little bit
(37:36):
underneath that. And often, theType Seven panels are really
somber. Like, no, I have thepain, but the reframe is how I
get through it. And so it wasjust so poignant to listen to
her share the shit she takes,day after day after day, and
how, and I can reframe it, and Ican and it's like, man, God
(38:00):
bless you that you have thatskill for yourself. Because for
most of us, that istraumatizing, for all of us.
Actually, that is traumatizing.
And so for her to have thefreedom and the safety in that
room, to share her actualexperience not have to be the
therapist hat. That was that'sthe humanity that makes what EPP
(38:22):
does special in that Laura wasable to hold the whole group in
the safety of the container toallow her to have that freedom
to have the men receiver thatare also of that type. And Laura
brilliantly could turn to theRomans, can you hear what she is
saying here. And like you said,it was like a gut punch. We all
(38:46):
could feel it from her. And thatthat's the sacred work. So it
really makes getting to comeinside and do the work inside
ourselves inside a prison. Likethat is where the work is. And
that was an epic thing to get tosee. Because that's not normal.
anywhere on campus. Yeah. And Iwill say that Sterling prison
(39:12):
does have staff that has takentheir two first classes that it
was lucky to be part of. And themen would share that having
learned the Enneagram they nowdon't see the arrows and CEOs
and people on staff as theassholes that just tell them
(39:34):
what to do and where to go doit. But that they are people and
so when it was COVID and therewas locked down and staff were
coming in to have to work a 12hour shift and then being told
at the end of the their 12 hourshift now you're on a 16 hour
shift. And they the studentswere saying sharing, I felt
horrible for them that theirfamily was expecting them to be
(39:58):
home after 12 hours, and nowthey're there for 16 hours.
That's that's the leveling ofthe playing field of us being
human beings. Does it matterwhere you're living? Does it
matter matter where you've been?
Yep. To one point it does. Andto another point, no, it
actually doesn't, if we all canjust be human and learn and grow
(40:21):
from each other. So I just likea shout out to the minute
Sterling, they've done somereally deep, beautiful work. And
it's not only heal healing eachother, but it's healing a
culture that can be prettyviolent, dangerous, unsafe, and
giving there at least a field ofsome hope within that
(40:43):
environment. I want to be partof something like that. Yeah,
Unknown (40:46):
for sure. I hope I get to come back. We have quite a
few more programs here thatwe're going to be doing this
year. And I hope I get picked.
Because I love it. I love ithere. I love the guys here. And
I don't tell everybody that it'sI believe in folks, I tell them
that I'm hoping for them thebest and all that stuff. I
really do love the guys here.
We'll wrap up soon. This isabout how long it takes for 45
(41:09):
ish minutes to go by.
Clay Tumey (41:11):
That doesn't take that long. Any anything?
Anything you want to include,we're not limited on time, by
the way, I got 40 Somethinghours I can record so I don't
want to make it seem like I'mwrapping it up if you don't want
to put anything from the daythat I didn't ask about or that
you'd like to share or anythinglike that.
Unknown (41:30):
For me, Mike personally, it was a very
wonderful experience. You know,I've had a chance to have a
chance to really sit back andand think about it being a head
type because that's what you do.
Because I'll sit back and butyeah, I mean the day was just
seemed like another day ifSuzanne at work and I just
haven't the chance just to justto be part of it. So but again,
(41:50):
the sharing the kindness of ofeverybody in the room. And just
the environment here at our JDwas just spectacularly welcoming
and nice. So it was not scaryfor me. And I maybe in the next
experience may be scarydepending on if there's a fight
in the yard and all heck, youknow, in a lockdown and Rob, but
(42:12):
that was the farthest thing. AndI guess that was my biggest
surprise was how there was nodrama, there was nothing. But
just again, it's back to thewe're all people we're doing our
work and we're trying to figureout just what the heck we are.
Clay Tumey (42:28):
You mentioned that you just reminded me of
something that happened lastyear about that maybe that maybe
it'll be scary. Maybe there'llbe a fight or something like
that. Last year when we werehere there was a fight. And it
wasn't in our room. It was Itwasn't a fight that we saw. But
we saw it dude stumble out ofone of the units bleeding, you'd
obviously been in a fight. He'skind of stumbling perhaps a
little bit concussed. And Irecognize that immediately just
(42:48):
because you do when you've seenit. And the guys that were here
with us, I was impressed by howscared they weren't. They went
immediately to that. Oh my god,are you okay? And almost like
breaking roles that some thingsyou're not supposed to do, such
as offer first aid to an inmatewhen you're not a staffer? And
so it was actually prettyimpressed by how how that fear
(43:12):
wasn't there for for a lot offolks, and maybe it would be for
somebody else? I don't know.
It's not my place to say but yousaying that made me it was a
full flashback?
Unknown (43:19):
I will I will totally admit that. It's probably my
naivety of being outside and notbeing incarcerated before. But
just watching Hollywood moviesI'll be I'll be dead serious is
that you expect angst among whenI was walking through the yard?
I'd look at groups of peoplethat were mad at each other or
looking to get the stain whythey didn't we're not gonna
notice stain dummies outside ofcuriosity. Are there some people
(43:41):
walking through the yard
Clay Tumey (43:42):
to get any random hellos from anybody? Yes.
Unknown (43:45):
But I was but that's the biggest takeaway is they
seem friendly. They're friendlywith each other like there were
buddies at college at schoolthat could be at a work partner
in your corporate facility butthere was camaraderie there
there are people interactingagain it was racial age,
cultural differences thereinteract everyone is interacting
(44:06):
and it's like wow, that justblew me away how much how
peaceful this environment wasand I don't know whether that is
totally just having to be thatminute that day or were my my
mindset coming in and piece wasbut that was really mind blowing
for me is like how beautiful itwas of an environment versus
(44:26):
tents looking over your shoulderor feeling like you're under
microscope so that was my bigtakeaway of wow this this is not
Hollywood this Yeah, there areactually people that that are in
confined but are really civiland nice to each other. So my
Clay Tumey (44:42):
favorite phrase and all that is they're actually
people and which is something Ithink the world tries to undo.
And in the dehumanization andall that stuff is after all the
bullshit after all the stuffthat folks want to say think
push all that stuff. Don't getme wrong. There are some rock
and roll yards. There are someplaces that we couldn't do what
we did today. So I'm notpretending that that's not a
(45:04):
thing. But by and large, this isthe experience that most folks
have. And shocker, they'reactually people. I love it.
Thanks for sharing that.
Unknown (45:14):
You're welcome.
Susanne Gawreluk (45:16):
About you. I guess I just want to share that
there was just a lot ofbeautiful things at the end of
the day, and one person said, myultimate epiphany today was to
embrace my identity, and that Iam worthy. Like, oh, how does
(45:37):
that not just make you squishyour heart up? Right? And just
say, Huh, I hear you and clay,you said to the man, you know, I
believe in you. And I'm, I'mgoing to hope with you. So,
having ambassadors in the roomfrom EPP to speak, the lived
(46:00):
experience, I've been inside andnow I'm out. And you too, can
have this freedom some day isgame changer for a class to have
ambassadors inside with us. Andjust spending the last half hour
of the class having you talk tothem about what it is to be an
(46:21):
ambassador and envisioning whatcould be and who knows what can
be at RJ D. Maybe that will be atraining ground for us. To have
men on the inside become guidesor ambassadors on the inside
before they're on the outsideand just everything that EPP is
growing into and becoming. We'renot stagnant and we are here to
(46:43):
stay. So I'm so happy that yougot to come in with me today.
And I'm glad to be with youagain. Clay
Clay Tumey (46:52):
as always a pleasure. I enjoyed the hell out
of it. And I hope it's not ourlast time somewhere. It's pretty
fun. Thanks for sitting down it.
It's getting chilly or outside.
I'm not wearing shoes so maybemaybe the cold ground on my feet
this prop but I was on thank youfor sitting down. This is Friday
night you're on vacation, youfly back at what the fuck
(47:12):
o'clock tomorrow. And you didn'thave to do this. You didn't have
to sit and chat with me and Iappreciate it so much. I
guarantee I speak on behalf ofmany other people when they hear
this. You're grateful that yousat down to chat. So thank you,
and thank you to Mike appreciateit. So the final word, anything
about today could be or tomorrowor EPP or not EPP literally
(47:34):
anything start with you versusand then like
Susanne Gawreluk (47:38):
final words would be possibility. We are
here to stay and anybodylistening because I think there
might be people listening tothis if any of this speaks to
your heart. Come on in. We arewelcoming you out Johann.
Unknown (47:55):
I guess my final words would be a plug for the EPP
camping trip into Dustin andRenee and your team of committee
there. That was rock solid lastyear and as a spouse of the EPP
family. That was so awesome tomeet all of you, so please have
another.
Clay Tumey (48:26):
More information about EPP please visit Enneagram
prison project.org We appreciateyour time and attention today.
Stay tuned for future episodesof the podcast which you can
expect on the first Tuesday ofevery month as we continue to
tell the story of the EnneagramPrison Project.
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