Episode 26: Happy Anniversary!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Clay Tumey (00:12):
Hi, my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison
Project podcast. In this episodeI sit down where it all began at
a certain kitchen table in LosGatos, California with EPP
founder Susan elastic. We'realso joined by EPP Executive
Director Rick Lessig. Today wecelebrate April 12, the official

(00:35):
anniversary for EPP 11 years andgoing We're glad you're here.
Thanks for listening. This isthe Enneagram Prison Project
podcast.

Rick Olesek (01:14):
All right, let's get cracking banana man.

Clay Tumey (01:17):
Here we are in Phoenix, Arizona. I've been
sitting on that one for a fewdays. I'm gonna pull up the Do
you have your notes? How do youwant to a couple of minutes or

Susan Olesek (01:32):
Oh, I'm just I could futz around with this for
a long time. No, I'm good.

Clay Tumey (01:36):
futz around.

That's a good four letter F word that doesn't have
make us be explicit.

I don't know what that was. I said it. It sounded
like a dirty word.

Clay Tumey (01:45):
I don't even know what I mean. Rick and I were
looking at each

other. I don't I'm afraid to know the origin or
you're already looking like lookon Slack he's got his giggle
eyes.

Clay Tumey (02:01):
I made the mistake of watching boomhauer right
before this. Alright guys, it'sgood to see you. Alright,
futzing around. Oh, that's me.
Oh, there's an actual words.
Means waste time.

Are you afraid to talk now?

No. I am definitely not afraid to talk. Okay, good.

Clay Tumey (02:19):
Where shall we start?

Well, very beginning. In the beginning,
very good place.

Clay Tumey (02:26):
So this is episode

2647. Something like that. Yeah.

Clay Tumey (02:31):
That's August 27 2016. It's season two finale.
Yeah, that sounds better. Soundsmore official.

But let's get let's get cracking. We gotta get into
this thing.

Clay Tumey (02:41):
Right now. We've been cracking.

Alright, so where are we starting? Let's start
with what's the first thing thatwhere did we leave off? Or what
are we what are we going to jumpinto the middle? Or where do you
want to go?

Clay Tumey (02:54):
We left off a year ago. So we spoke for the
conclusion of the first seasonof the podcast for the 10 year
anniversary. Coming up on 11.
And we're coming up on year 11.
This is the conclusion of year11. We're coming up on year 12.
And we are four days away fromthe anniversary today. As we
record this Saturday, April 8,is lash potentially potentially

(03:17):
Sunday, April 9, Easter in thisis gonna go up on Wednesday,
April 12, which will be 11 yearssince the official and we talked
about this last year about whyis it what makes it the official
episode or not f was theofficial anniversary. And it was

(03:38):
just the date that paperwork gotsubmitted. So there's nothing
special

like special that I know if it was on that day.

Well, I mean, it might just allow the day that
the paperwork got submitted, butthen now it's the day the
paperwork got submitted. It'ssignificant because it actually
happened, right? It wasn't ideauntil it actually became, you
know, real. I think what'swhat's noteworthy Aleta told me
this is that EPP will bestarting its 20th program in

(04:07):
Louisville jail. On ourbirthday.

Clay Tumey (04:12):
That's happening on Wednesday 20th program,

don't you say?
Wouldn't you say we're doing?
Aren't we doing 20 programs 20.
I heard I heard as well. I thinkwe're gonna edit this part out

Clay Tumey (04:24):
isn't great ways that they can see the face

20 I was quoting you. So I've been saying this in
a couple of places that we hadeight programs going before
COVID program 20

programs going at once in different different
places, jails, prisons,

Clay Tumey (04:40):
things like that. So we will simultaneous we have 19
Now we have a lot.

I don't know I haven't. I haven't been doing
the math on it. So I can'tpersist for sure say that it

was 20 bucks.
Alright, scratch all that. WhatI think is noteworthy is that
we're going to be starting a newprogram in Louisville. JL I got
to learn to say Louisville likethey do on the Honor birthday.
That's pretty cool. That'spretty damn cool.

Clay Tumey (05:08):
Yeah, what's that program going to consist of?

It is a, it's a regular EPP program, eight
modules in a compressed format.
So all 24 hours in a four dayperiod of time. And it's going
to be, it's going to be whatit's going to be. It's a jail.
And there's a lot of socialunrest that's been happening in
Louisville over the last manyyears after. Gosh, there's so

(05:32):
much Breanna Taylor, GeorgeFloyd, all the all the things
and they know that they're, thework is, is there for them to
do, I don't think they have anyother programs going on right
now. And they've been superaccommodating. For us, they are
like, if you can roll out a redcarpet and jail, they're doing
that we're gonna have a greatspace with fresh air and all the

(05:53):
materials are coming in. Andthey're just doing so much to
make it easy for us to get hitthe ground running, and it's
gonna be great.

Clay Tumey (06:02):
Well, are we able to say who else is gonna be there?

Yeah. Niner Maples has been waiting a good long
time. So I'm super excited to beworking with her and Halida
obviously lives right there. Sothis is Halida second program. I
think since our JD, when youwere there with her clay Selby,
the three of us. And we just metthis morning. And we're just

(06:26):
three very happy body typesgoing in feeling really easy,
good.

Clay Tumey (06:31):
Helya, Type Eight, nine and Type One, of course
your Type One as well.

That's a lot of body types in the room. Do you

Clay Tumey (06:37):
ever when you're figuring who can go in and
program together the the guideor the lead Guide or the
apprentice or all the differentambassadors even does any? Is
there any consideration for formatching certain types or
centers of intelligence? Or isit just what's available is like
a geographical thing.

I think it's more two and three than one. If
anybody was following all thosechoices, I think someday we'll
be able to say, be so nice if wecould have a balance three
different centers or differentintelligence or something right
now. It's, it's mostly it's, Idon't know, it's sometimes heavy
logistics, which is right now.
This is in China. And the latestbackyard makes all the sense in

(07:15):
the world for them to be there.
Asha was also going to be avisitor.

Clay Tumey (07:21):
That's right. He is not far away. All right, yeah.

And he said he would be willing to come in and
sit on a panel. Yeah. And healso said he'd be willing to
write some bio responses. So Iguess this won't come up before
that no pressure. But I hopethat that happens.

Clay Tumey (07:36):
Oh, it's pressure.
I'm going to clip that exactly.
Send it to him. So the distractmyself by being silly, because I
had a I had a follow up there.
With bio responses. Oh, people?
How many is this? Did you saywhether or not this was men's
prison or women's prison?

It didn't say both. There. Were starting with
the men. And we were planning onfollowing up with the women.

Clay Tumey (08:02):
Yeah, how many folks are going to be there,

our sweet spot is 25. So once we asked for this,
what they gave us

Clay Tumey (08:08):
what makes it sweet.

Because y'all could have seen glazed or to the
head and grin. I think it's agood chunk of people so that the
content can be you know, can beplaying out in enough people in
the room. That's one. And Ithink that's the biggest one,
there's not so many people thatyou don't get that sort of more

(08:34):
intimate serve and return withpeople where you can kind of let
things unfold. I mean, thecurriculum is designed to really
help people to go deep inside ofthemselves. And if there are too
many people, that doesn'thappen, or it only happens for a
few, at the exclusion of a lotmore. And if there are too few,
it's almost like too intense, oryou don't have the balance of
all the other types. We we liketo employ the narrative

(08:57):
tradition. So putting all thedifferent types on panel, it
gives us a good combination. Ifwe don't have enough people,
sometimes we import people fromfrom the outside. Important.
problem that terror, it's fine.

Clay Tumey (09:15):
I think it's fun. So you use the term that it's
become more common in the lastcouple of months or so we used
to say intensive. And now we saycompressed. And why are we doing
that? And that is not like thebiggest question in the world.
But I don't think I've everactually asked that.

Why does language matter?

Is the question why are we using the word compressed
versus intensive? Or is it whyare we why have we made this
some changes into how we deliverthe program?

Clay Tumey (09:43):
The first of those two and I want the answer to the
second one too, but the thequestion itself is about I don't

know. Yeah, I think that we came out with the word
intensive for and I think it wasa little bit too intense as a
word and it implied somethinglike Well, what is the other
one? Is it not intense? Or is itis too intense. And it gives
some it's a gradation on intenseintensity, which is not, it is,

(10:12):
it doesn't mean that. But byhaving it in a smaller space, a
tighter window, there are somedifferences to how we deliver
the curriculum. And so we cameup with compressed, still not
100% sold uncompressed. If thereis a better word and compressed,
I'd be happy to you asking forinput from the listener. I'm

(10:33):
just saying that we, you know,we've been we've been kicking it
around for a while andcompressed seems to be the best
we've come up with. So

Clay Tumey (10:38):
I like compressed. I like consolidated fills
furniture it? Yeah, it feelscloser. Okay. Yeah. I didn't
like intensive, mainly because Ididn't know if it was intense or
intensive. Compressed is easierto remember. Yep. does feel
compressed squished is probablynot okay. Weird. Well,

and so just just so everyone knows what the, you
know, usually we give we do ourprogramming it once or twice a
week. And so in fact, mostly ourcommon most common is once a
week, for a three hour window orso, eight weeks for, you know,
what, three hours a week, or itis, you know, 10 or 12 hours,
two or two and a half hours aweek, somehow to get to that

(11:20):
sweet spot of around 2425 hoursof teaching. But if we move
towards something where we cando it in a smaller window, then
what it what it allows us to doand has allowed us to do is that
we can bring people in flypeople in, and they don't have

(11:40):
to be local. So all of a sudden,you know, we're where if you had
to do an eight week, you know,program in someplace that you
weren't local to that that's areal, that's really difficult.
It's difficult logistically, butif all of a sudden you're
saying, Hey, we can do it overone weekend or two weekends, and
you know, every other week, nowall of a sudden, you can you can
get there how to get somebodythere twice.

Clay Tumey (12:03):
So it's doable, for example, for me to go to
Southern California for a coupleof days, this week, couple of
days next week, and that'd bethe whole thing instead of
flying out there. That's

right. And so eight weeks in a row and RJ Donovan as
you know, that's that's what wedo is we use the compressed
format. So

Clay Tumey (12:17):
I'll be there the day after you're starting. So
we'll you'll be in Louisville. Idon't know if I'm saying that
right now. Just say likeyeah, and I'll be I'll be so
I'll be there on the 13th It's abusy

week. This next week is a busy month is a busy
week for EPP because also wehave a compressed program it
happening at home house inEngland.

Clay Tumey (12:49):
That's right. And that starts Suzanna starts on
also starts on Tuesday.

Yeah, she went, she leaves leaves tomorrow and Viva
Viva is going also leavingtomorrow or the next day to get
there. Yeah.

And Moira and Sue are apprenticing and they're
super thrilled about that. AndJeanette will be up there
getting their feet wet all overagain,

Kate, Brooke, and Christine and Jill, on the
inside.

Clay Tumey (13:12):
Great. A lot of stuff going on.

We have a whole circle full of people who help
with responding to bios, andthere's like, Who else do you
know that's that you can tap andsay, Hey, could you could you
write an extra one?

Clay Tumey (13:25):
Yeah, right. How many? Do you know how many there
are? How many people there arewho respond to the

I don't know how many there are. And it's usually
not a problem, we usually caneverybody can take a couple. But
this one, that's if it's 25 andcaught in a class, and I think
it is could be 75 and

weak. And just just I mean, it takes somebody a good
hour and a half, two hours torespond to one. So

Clay Tumey (13:50):
we talked a little bit about the bio responses on
we had an episode with about GTAwith both the PA guides and also
with GTA participant when I satdown at this table, actually.
And so we I think the folks haveheard a little bit about the bio
responses but like from a like amechanical or technical aspects.

(14:13):
How do those go down like thebio? Well, first of all, what is
the bio response just foranybody who might be listening
for the first time and don'talready know? What is what is a
bio response? And then also whatdoes it take if you have 72 or
something like that? 75 How doyou how do you have that
turnaround time be so quick?

Right? Well, one of our significant homework
assignments is to invite peopleto write a biography in the
third person and they write withsome prompts to help them to
reflect on the timeline of thethings that happened to them
from when they were born untilthey were 18. So we will do it
till 25 And it's significantbecause it really is a way for

(14:53):
people take take an objectivelook at what has happened to
them and think why At what Ialways consider inside of me
when we talk about ourcurriculum is there's nothing
wrong with us. But there'sthere's a lot of stuff that
happened to us. And the Englishpsychologist DW Winnicott said,
there are things that happenthat should never have happened.

(15:14):
And there are things that shouldhave happened that did not. And
most people don't really knowthat, that we can say that, but
we don't really know that. Andpeople often don't even
understand the, the total thetotality of what's happened to
them. So writing it as asignificant exercise, and and

(15:36):
just remembering that one of ourstudents named John who came in
the first time he wrote hisbiography, he, his eyes were
swollen, his face was red, hehad his psyche had detoxed
overnight, and he turned inpages and pages and pages, and
his childhood was horrific.
Anyway, I'm, I'm maybe goinginto a lot here, but it's just
such a big assignment. And wewant to receive it with the sort

(15:58):
of weight with which people giveit to give it give it up. And so
we take our time with theresponse to appreciate them to
help them connect the dots tothings that they may not have
seen themselves in their type.
And we're always trying to helppeople to understand how your
personality type helps yousurvive, and where the, where we

(16:22):
lost contact with our essentialquality. So those are all the
things we're trying to do in thebio response. And I'll just say,
honestly, you can live you cancome through the content in the
guide training program and bevery good delivering the
content, not everybody is agreat writer, not everybody is
as good and thorough and able towrite a biography response right

(16:46):
off the bat. And so we've takentime to put more training around
it give people more feedback,oversight, and also to highlight
people who are good at it to putthem in a circle so that they
can be tapped more often. Sothere's a couple of things that
are happening. Oh, rice is done.
I wondered if that was gonnahappen? Yeah. So yeah, we have
we have a bunch of people in thewings, angels in the wings.

Clay Tumey (17:12):
And you said that it's a third person writing? And
and I don't know if I'veactually asked this directly,
but what is the benefit? Insteadof me if I'm writing it and
saying, when I was 12 years old,what is the what is? What are we
adding or what value is added bysaying instead of when I was 12
years old, I would write whenClay was 12 years old.

I think it just gives people some space and some
perspective to look back andhave a little bit more
objectivity. I actually thinkthat's the same thing that the
Enneagram offers us that we canuse that as a way to, like, see
what a type structure does, butI'm not actually talking about
myself. And then that's what Imean by connecting the dots.

(17:54):
Like there's a, there's astructure, there's a personality
structure, and there's also asystem, and then there's me, and
that's really was my life. So tohelping people to have a little
bit of objectivity.

I'll just add, that this particular assignment comes
directly out of the blue book.
So out of the wisdom of theEnneagram book. And, and we, I
don't want to get too much intologistics, but we have a really,
really savvy infrastructureteam. And Jason has just crushed
how head crushed how to do thisTyson lion, Jason white. Yeah,

(18:30):
he has just made it so easy forus to have habits so that people
can get quickly just go dropright in and start typing and be
able to then for us to be ableto print those out and get them
back to people. And it's alittle bit of a logistical
headache, especially if it's inmultiple places.

Clay Tumey (18:49):
Yeah. And we talked about that some before. But RJ
Donovan last year when we werethere, I forget how many it was.
I want to say it was close to70. It was a lot. Yes. Yeah. And
those were the turnaround onthose were like days. Yeah. And
that was I think, yeah. And thatwas folks who were there in
person. There were there weresome responses done by them.

(19:10):
That and then others werescanned and emailed throughout
Earth, and even as far away asAustralia. And so by all
responses coming in from theother side of the world, which
is pretty gnarly.

One thing that was pretty amazing as I was part of
a group of people who arewriting by losing track of the
country for a second in England,

Clay Tumey (19:33):
or Belgium. This is one of my favorite things that
happens when we're on Earthwhere we literally

no, no, no, okay, I just remembered Yeah, we were
in England. And I rememberbecause Viva and I were sitting
in the Airbnb living room andSuzanne was across the way and
we're all in our pajamas andwe're tired. We're really tired.
But no one's gone to bed. And weare sharing pages across. And

(20:03):
then you can just see differentmoments where one of us just
like this, our head back andtakes a breath because they're
intense. People's lives areintense, and they've been
through so much, you can't makeup the stuff that that you read.
And And anyway, it was one ofthose where we got help from

(20:24):
different places. And I've beenin rooms where people receive
students receive their responseback and the person's not in
there. Like not in the room,right? They're not in the
country. And they look at me andsay, like, how can someone know
me like that? How can someoneknow me without even knowing me?
And that's the power of theEnneagram is really, really
cool. So, yeah, we're doing,we're doing a lot this month,

(20:48):
especially. And I think the factthat we can do it and all sort
of look up and say, oh, yeah,it's a lot. But it's not like
we're shutting everything elsedown. There's still a lot of
other things happening, too. AndI think that's sort of like, the
momentum of the year.

Yeah, I just want to just kind of add, I know, you
kind of alluded to the factthat, you know that how intense
it is, we're going back to thatword of intense, but then in the
right way, I think how intensethese bios are, for the, for the
person who's writing them, andalso for the person who's
receiving them and writing aresponse. And yeah, it's, I'm

(21:25):
sure, it doesn't come as anysurprise. But I, you know, one
of the things that we do we talkabout sometimes is, with the ACE
study, and how many aces thefolks on the inside have, and
we've been doing a study withour, with our students, as a way
to unpack what has happened. Andwe've been doing it now for, I

(21:48):
don't know, seven years, six orseven years, we have somewhere
north of 1500, to almost 2000,you know, things that are just
just so that we could catalogthem. And where, where the ACE
study talks about how once youget to about three aces, you

(22:10):
have all of these negativehealth outcomes,

Clay Tumey (22:14):
like physical, physical health problems, health
problems,

but also, you know, all of these things that just
kind of align or line up againstwith, you know, suicidal
tendencies, and depression andalcoholism. And it is study
after study about this, once youget to about three, the average
in our classes over that amountof time, it doesn't matter. If
it's in another country, itdoesn't matter if it's women
versus men, doesn't matter. Youknow, if we take all of that

(22:39):
stuff, we're looking at themindividually. It's five, it's
five plus aces. And that is sohard. Right? So it just, it's
just another like, Okay, this isthe this is the actual stuff on
the ground here is that there'sa lot of hurting folks who are
have had a really, reallydifficult childhood.

Clay Tumey (23:03):
Yeah, it's in the, especially when you read the
stories in the BIOS, there's apoint where you go, yeah,
obviously, you're going to,you're going to end up in a
trickier place and average Joedown the street who had an okay
life. Like it makes it it almostmakes sense. Like, of course,
you're in prison. Like, whichis, it's not a nice way to say

(23:23):
it. But it makes sense to me,like, yeah, your life was, like,
sucked,

right? In the end, when they first did the A study
in San Diego with Kaiser and theCDC had to go back and look at
the exact number, but it wassomething, you know, the average
number of ACEs was 1.1.
Something, it was in between oneand two. That was where that was
at. So it's a pretty big jump toget to five.

Clay Tumey (23:48):
What were they doing? Like, what were they?
What were they going for whenthey first did that study? And
because the I know that I don'tknow all the demographics, but I
know that the the groups thatthey did that with, it makes
sense to do this when we're inprison, like to study adverse
childhood experience, becauseI'm in a really bad place. And I
need to start figuring somethings out. But who were they

(24:09):
who were they studying?

They were studying what was Kaiser, which is a big
health organization here inCalifornia, and the CDC, and
they were looking specificallyat how, how do adverse childhood
experiences impact healthoutcomes, so that they could
understand the participantsinside of Kaiser, which is a
large health organization.
Gotcha. And then from that, oncethey started to plot that on a

(24:33):
plot that on a on a graph, theywere like, oh, there's actually
some correlations here. And thenthat's where all these other
correlations into their studiescame from.

Clay Tumey (24:48):
Did you have anything that wanted to squeeze
in here, okay, if you don't,well, no,

just ACES is a big deal. There's a lot there.
There's a lot there and Theywere they were trying to
demonstrate the correlationbetween health health outcomes
and the adversity that childrenexperience. And I, what I think
Rick is pointing to is soimportant because they were

(25:12):
looking at, you know, an alargely middle class employed
white.

Yeah, it was done in San Diego it was, it was in
California with people that wereemployed and part of Kaiser.

And I remember asking Gabor, what he thought
about us using that acequestionnaire on the inside. And
he said, Absolutely. And it'sallowed us to do the same kind
of thing that the biography isafter it's, it's helping people
to tell themselves the truthabout what has happened to them.
It's hard to negotiate when yougive yourself a point for each
one of these things. And thequestioner doesn't even cover

(25:49):
all of the things. And so peopleare, we help people to
understand that a lot hashappened. And there are you
could have a 20 year, less lifeexpectancy because of those
kinds of things. And somehow themedical correlation, the that I
might have more autoimmunediseases or more might be more
likely to be suicidal, somehowmakes it more understandable

(26:13):
that what we're saying itcorroborates the whole picture.

Clay Tumey (26:20):
So it started as a health thing, I had it
backwards, I thought it was Ithought it was they were trying
to look at, like, you know, Iwas always in the at risk at
risk categories in school andall that other stuff. I actually
thought it was trying to figureout hey, what the hell's wrong
with all these kids that don'tbehave? It was actually a just
a, just a doctor's office kindof thing. Learn something every

(26:41):
day, if you want to.

And I will just say to anyone who's listening, and
reading about the ACE study, andthe stuff that has gone on since
then, is fascinating stuff. Ithas now been taken up by WHO and
you have resiliency tests. And Imean, the World Health
Organization does this and allkinds of places now. And they've
they've modified some of thedifferent questions, you know,

(27:05):
in for, for things like, youknow, war torn areas and stuff.
But it is it's a fascinatingtopic. But not the one that we
were planning on.

Clay Tumey (27:19):
It comes up for a reason. I'm putting I'm opening
my phone right now. Because theidea. So this is the 11th
anniversary VPP. And we'll talkabout the year end review, which
was kind of already said a fewthings about where we were,
where we're going and all thatstuff. And I put it to our to
the podcast, chat Slack channel,like what are some things that
happened in the last year, sothat that were highlights or

(27:42):
whatever else? And if, ifanything jumps on you, I want to
start or I can start readingsome of these and we can just
freestyle and see where it goes?

Well, I think for myself, I'm happy to hear what's
on this election curious. It'son the Slack channel. This year,
it feels really significantbecause we we came out of the
pandemic. Now. It's an endemic,I guess, right? It's official.
And we were super busy. Duringthe pandemic, we most people

(28:12):
know. We couldn't program. So wetook our in custody classes, we
built online offerings, we openthem up to the public, we became
a school. And we had over 1000people come through those
classes. And then a lot ofthings started to open back up
virtually and in person. Andthen we were open everywhere.

(28:33):
And we were like, oh mygoodness, we didn't have the
capacity to be doing everything.
And we really had to make aconscious choice to turn her
energy to go well, what Rick, Ithink coined for the
organization back to basics,like we are Enneagram Prison
Project. And now there actuallyis a sweatshirt that says, Say
clay prison is our middle name.

(28:55):
And he's, he's on the back ofhis chair. And they but he does
exist, never thought you'd seethe day. And prison is our
middle name. So we've, we'vebeen focusing our energy on
that. And it's not been an easything to get our arms around,
right? What do we do? What don'twe do? When do we do it? What
can we manage on the schedule,and people are flying in for

(29:15):
compressed schedules. And thenthere's the regular custody
stuff, and we have all the guidetraining programs. So we have we
had to really focus and I thinkthat's been a lot of what the
year has felt like, that's what

Clay Tumey (29:27):
it felt like for me.
I felt like I've been moreinvolved and I don't know, a lot
of the COVID influence virtualprogramming, whatever, however
you want to describe that likeit was good and necessary, I
think. And I also just reallyloved going into prison. Yeah,
when they let you out at the endof the day. Like just the style.
Yeah, exactly. Just don't haveto roll doubles three times. Pay

(29:49):
money to get out. I probablywent a little too far with a
monopoly job but I love goinginside. I love I love being with
the folks on On the inside whoare at a point where they can
make some big changes or bigpivots and new directions. And I
remember what that I rememberwhat that experience was like.

(30:10):
And I love being a part of it.
It's cool.

Nothing compares to being on the inside in
person.

Clay Tumey (30:14):
Nothing at all. It's not even not even close. I would
trade everything else for that.
And thankfully, we don't have tobecause we still get to do other
cool stuff. You know, like this.
We're not in jail today. We'rerecording a podcast which I
think is cool. Here in Phoenix,Arizona. Are you gonna We're not

(30:36):
in Phoenix, Arizona. No, we sowe were, I'm just making a joke,
but I will explain the joke. Thewe were in Phoenix a few weeks
ago, and we were gonna record wewere there for cow What a cool
thing that just got hit by howneat that was to see. A fellow
ambassador and brothers as faras I'm concerned. pixoto getting

(30:57):
married. And, and that was likea little mini EPP event really,
there was what 10 or 11 of usthere. And another Ambassador
Alex was, was hit that's whomarried Vic and Michelle. And it
was, that was really cool. Itwas really, it was really
actually special to say to me,where I sit and just knowing

(31:20):
where a lot of this started for,you know, everybody was there in
relationship with each otherstarted because of like, some
really unpleasant things in ourlives. Or at least that's how I
saw it. And so to be there,celebrating and a good, you
know, good thing is happening.
And that's really cool. And sowe were while while we were in
Phoenix was like, hey, this willbe convenient. We'll just record

(31:40):
the episode while we're there.
And then it didn't work out. Butto me, it's funny to keep
wearing out a joke, even thoughit might not be funny. Let me
stop saying that I'll stopsaying no, I

just I was just looking for the context getting
like me for audience to have thecontext. And it was such a joy
filled celebration. It was itwas momentous. It was

Clay Tumey (32:04):
I've never seen anything like that. People that
I knew. I didn't do time withthem. They did time with each
other. But I was in Texas,they're in California, but
people who who met on theinside, and then the dumps. And
then we're a part of such a bigevent together.

There was so much love there.

Clay Tumey (32:26):
It's pretty pretty damn cool. So anyways, that's
the context behind the Phoenixjoke. I'll probably let it rest.
Now Now that I've explained it,I like throwing it out there and
just people wondering and thenmaybe say it sometime later, but
I'll let it drop. The point ofthis episode, though, is to
review the year and say whatelse kind of happened? You
mentioned the back to the basicstuff. And, and I think I'll

(32:49):
share a few of what was sharedin the Slack channel. And these
are from individuals, I won'tsay their name because I didn't
have the forethought toforesight or forethought to ask
them if it was okay, so I won'tname them. But I'll say what
they wrote. One is someone whosays we'll leave our firstborn
is that totally says who she is.
Every week of GTP. And thehardest I've worked to make time

(33:11):
and acknowledge distractions inmy life. And finally, finally,
being told that I get to go tojail as one person wrote, This
year was really meaningful tome. And a lot of ways with EVPs.
And then Troy, I don't thinkhe'll mind me saying his name.
Troy says that the impact for meis learning more about myself
and feeling inspired to do morewith EPP which he has totally

(33:33):
done. We've seen a lot of toyaround, I'd love to

double click on that before, because I think
that's the other. The other bigintention that we've had over
the last couple of years, andit's really come into fruition
around GTP is invitingambassadors to be in every space
that EPP is whether it meansgoing back in to teach these
compressed schedules andleadership positions on faculty

(34:00):
in guide training and

on the directors of boards.

Yeah, Dustin, joined the Canadian board. Alex
has been on the board. And wejust have it's such a signature
to be able to bring people whodid time and found freedom on
the inside to come out and bepart of delivering these
programs and giving guides andtraining feedback and the

(34:28):
practice patch about how closeor off the mark they are. We
just know that havingambassadors in all the spaces is
what makes us bring the heart ofwhat we do everywhere. So I
think we're getting we'regetting better at that we have a
little more resources to be ableto do that. And that's
happening.

Yeah, and one of the things that we really kind
of if, if back to basics was thewas the title. The subtitle was
focusing on the in custodystudent. And what that means for
me is it it means the in custodystudent before and in custody

(35:08):
student after. So, you know, andthe ambassadors are a, you know,
the is the manifestation of thaton the outside the end

Clay Tumey (35:17):
user. Yes. It's a term I learned. Sorry says I
says I've come to anunderstanding that being an
ambassador means stepping outand face to help not only
myself, but every person in thiscommunity. I thrive on being
here and joining the events thatI can truly wanted, I feel truly

(35:37):
wanted and needed. That's what Icall someone else. Someone else
says, I've been helping withthat data entry, better data. As
you take a drink, I'll just gofrom the core surveys recently,
and a few things stood out forme that speak, I'm reading these

(35:58):
cold by the way, I don't knowwhat any of these these are
saying. stood out for me thatspeak to the overall impact that
EPP has the gratitude for EPPthe guides, and their capacity
to support the students thechange in them as they learn
about personality and trauma andhow they start to heal becoming
more able to forgive themselvesand others to see their value to

(36:22):
learn to love themselves. A lot.

Let me I'm just gonna say that. One of the
things that that brings up forme, as I hear some of these
things is that they're in someof the just kind of riffing off
of what you just said, Susan, isthat we had a very robust GDP
this last year. And it's ittook, we put brought a lot of

(36:50):
energy into it. We put it out alot of folks, whether it was
ambassadors or pod guides, or,or other faculty members to it,
and it it really brought forth,just a number of people who are
now currently programming, rightin prisons and jails, and more
on the way as they say, Okay, so

Clay Tumey (37:12):
I'm going to, I did not realize how much people
wrote in this. Because I wantedto be like, I just wanted to
read these cold, but there's alot shared here. So if anybody
is on our Slack channel, thepodcast chat Slack channel, I
would just say go and readbecause I'm not going to be able
to read all these at all. But agood starting point to begin the
year in review is what wasshared by the magical Jan Checa.

(37:38):
She said, having threecompressed programs that are JD
in San Diego in May of 2022. Formany of us the first time back
inside after COVID, and a miniEPP reunion. So this is where we
were in San Diego, there werethree cohorts going on
simultaneously inside theprison. That's the one where
they had 70 some odd bioresponses that were answered

(38:00):
throughout the world. And thatwas the beginning of year 11 For
EPP.

So what comes up for you thinking about that? I
was not there. This isdefinitely all offseason. So you
can answer to that. Well, yeah,

we were there.
Clay and I were there. Nothingbut good good juju, and memories
from being in there beingsupported by by Dr. Greenwald
and also passing the torch toDr. Barro and all the
psychologists, doctorate casickall the people who are there,
not just supporting and makingsure the paperwork could go in
and out but literally taking theclass alongside the students

(38:37):
writing their own biographiesand then coming out after that,
and then taking our programsonline again, and really
embracing the Enneagram to havethe mental health team
understand the value of theEnneagram in really reaching
their clients has been just soso powerful. And I think there's
so much that wants to happenthere. So we have a grant to

(39:02):
support it in part I thinkthat's that's growing our
capacity to do more there willgrow and then of course Laura
moving down cells so she couldbe a lot more in person herself.
You know, I just feel like we'rejust getting started.

Clay Tumey (39:18):
And I don't know, I don't know if it's okay to say
this. But she like they moveddown there. It wasn't just
because they were like, Hey,let's go be an air person like
that was because No, no. Yeah.
So just I mean, I'll saycoincidence, because that's the
word. But it was it was it wasliterally just one of those
things where oh, this apparentlyunconnected thing is actually

(39:38):
totally going to make stuffbetter for for what we want to
do with EPP.

Yeah. When I think about RJD it just has all
elements had a lot of elementsbefore Laura moved. It had a
great relationship with peopleinside of the facility and we
have the And we've miraculouslyhave some funding to go and do
it. But then when Laura moveddown there, then she was even

(40:07):
more able to create some of theoutside community support, and
be one of the ready guides to gointo the institution. So all of
that just it makes all the sensein the world to do more and more
in that space.

Clay Tumey (40:19):
That's one of those facilities where you mentioned
some, and I'll just say my viewon it, the mental health staff
is so down, like they are sodown to do whatever is best for
the residents there for theclients there. I don't use any
of the traditional prisonlanguage there, which is really
cool. And we've, we've addressedthat before, but I'm still
saying it here that it's justreally cool. And it was it was

(40:42):
mind boggling to see last lastMay. Like you said, each class
had a representative from themental health staff taking the
class. And it wasn't just amatter of sitting there and
being available for questions orwhatever, like they did the
work.

And it's not just happening in our JD it also
happens just this past Februaryand lose when Dana, Dustin were
out there and the ward andAriane and Ariane sorry, Ariane?
And, I mean, it's just thinkingof so many so many people,
right? Where the people who arerunning the institution are very
much committing themselves tobeing part of the work, which is

(41:25):
one of our huge values. AndSelene who's the warden over
there was in in our onlineprogram, and then just rolling
up her sleeves. Same thing withVirginie. And I know that we, we
haven't quite done it. But weare, I think, on the cusp of

(41:45):
being able to bring high leveladministrators and mental health
professionals from differentinstitutions across the United
States, but also inter intercontinentally. So weird, I never
really say globally, to sharebest practices and share what's
possible. And that to me isthat's that hasn't always been

(42:06):
possible. We haven't been thatclose before.

Clay Tumey (42:08):
What are those conversations sound like? Like?
What are the things that peopleare asking or that you're
telling them or anything?

Well, I think it'd be interesting to plant the
seeds for future podcasts. EvenJohn Felipe is working in Marsh
Marsh prison. I was trying tosay, Mr. Nassif, that is not
that in Marsh prison. And he'staken up a warden role. And he's

(42:36):
in close contact with people whoused to sit on the border border
paroles, and we used to sit onthe Board of Parole. And he's
working a lot with dynamicsecurity, and helping people to
understand that the when we usethe Enneagram, and we are
emotionally and psychologicallysafe inside of ourselves, then
we actually contribute to theoverall safety of the

(42:57):
institution. So he's been on tothat for a decade, but we were
just on a phone call with theDepartment of Corrections in
Washington, and they are veryfamiliar with dynamic security.
And so I can imagine they wouldhave quite an interesting
conversation when John Felipehas been training correctional
officers for the last decade.
And we had someone from who's acommissioner who sits on the

(43:19):
California Board of Parole inour recent graduation in San
Quentin, and I think so I mean,that's the kind of level that
I'm talking about. And once westart having more time, and
those folks get more spaceinside themselves in wartime
with the curriculum, then Idon't even know what's

Clay Tumey (43:39):
possible. Anything else from that? That we could
RGD

I didn't, I was just thinking to myself about
how nice kickoff that was, forus really starting to go back in
prison again, we had, at thatpoint, we had been doing some
virtual programming in differentplaces around the, you know,
certainly around the US. Andwe've done some things in person

(44:06):
in some spaces. But that was anice way for us to really kind
of get back into the swing ofthings, but specifically in RGD,
and really kind of push thatparticular institution forward
for, you know, being able to domore programs and I know, Clay
you're, you know, heading downto RJD like we talked about next
week and or later this week, andthat those kinds of things are

(44:30):
now just in a nice, a nicerhythm.

Clay Tumey (44:35):
Yeah, the day that this uploads, I'll be flying to
San Diego that night. And I alsowas there in January. I've like
I've I come back in May, goingback in June, because there's
gonna be a movie there a fewtimes. I love it. And there was
this. There has been this prettyclear push to get ambassadors

(44:57):
and as many spaces as possible.
I don't know if there's anofficial term for it or
whatever, but that's, that's howI've, I've experienced it. And
it's really showing up and inplaces like being able to go to
our JD and, and have to be apart of class.

Yeah. I mean, I know that there's a lot of I
mean, whether it was Alex orSue, or Renee, you're right
other or Dustin, I mean, there'sa lot of folks that are in a lot
of spaces now. And, and evensome of the other ambassadors
are, you know, are coming intoit in, in lesser ways, but
still, you know, the invitationis there for them to be more

(45:35):
present to it. Because there's,it's a definitely a, an A, a
push from all of us, we knowthat it's important. It brings
something that we the livedexperience of the ambassador's,
the wisdom of the ambassadors,is, like Susan was saying, needs
to be in every space.

Oh, my God, it's just a total game changer. Alex
comes into San Quentin everysingle week with us with Cynthia
and Jason is coming and knee.
And when he went very first timeHe came in even open his mouth,
people were like just sitting upand turning their heads and
wanting to sit next to them. AndAlex leads to centering people

(46:15):
are they're there for whateverhe has to say. And I feel so
extra supported. Because Alex isconnected enough to himself now
where he'll just, you know,using raises, he's just part of
CO guiding Listen, DNI bringinghis exclamation marks to all the
things that we're saying withthe very real example that I

(46:37):
can't come up with and myself inthe same way. It's a game
changer.

Clay Tumey (46:43):
And Dustin shared a couple months ago on the on the
on the podcast, where when theywere in Belgium, somebody raised
their hand and gave a prettydirect question to him, where
he, you know, I'm paraphrasing,but it was, you know, everybody
comes in and says this, and doesthat none of that, but you're
the only one who's done it. Andyou're the only one who's this
and you're the only one who'sthat, and just directly asked

(47:05):
him like is does this shit wherehe is a shit? But does this
work? Or is this worth it? Ordoes it work or something like
that? And Dustin, in thatmoment, you know, it's just,
that's how it is. He's the onlyperson in that room who can
speak to because he's the onlyone, we can all share our
stories. And it just so happensin that moment is was the story
that they were calling upon,right? I love it. It's pretty

(47:29):
cool.

What I love about it is that, you know, we teach
this curriculum, we want peopleto understand what's driving us
to do the things that we do andhow we get in trouble with our
personalities, how to holdourselves and love ourselves.
And then people get out, and wewant them to stay connected. And
if people do if people do stayconnected to EPP, they continue

(47:53):
to learn and they contribute toimpact the organization. It's so
directly reciprocal, andeveryone feels like they're
winning. Right? So it wasn't Ididn't know that it would work
so effectively like that. But itdoes.

Clay Tumey (48:12):
So skipping ahead, what was it? 10 days after IgD?
Maybe not even that long. We allhopped on a plane, different
planes went to Sweden, for theInternational Enneagram
Association Conference in Swedenin what was it may 2022. Also,
or was it June? It was me. Andwhat comes up for you thinking

(48:35):
about that memory.

My happiest memories of that? Are Rene and
Alex getting passports. Yeah,and getting out of the country
and just flying free and how itwas a delight for me although we
had quite the it's quite a tripto go to England and the
layovers and it's, we slept awreck. The same coffee shop we

(48:58):
slept in like couple weekslater, you and me Alex and I
with our face and a cup ofcoffee just it's a long trip.
And we were so happy to be thereRenee headed off on his own just
so for fearless and, and then tobe able to, to be in that
conference together and be ableto share what we're up to. And I
think there are a lot of peoplewho had never heard us live like

(49:20):
that before.

Clay Tumey (49:22):
I thought I flew actually took three different
flights, I think right? I flewbecause I visited a friend right
before that. And anothercountry. That's pretty close to
there. And then Renee went byhimself.

Unknown (49:33):
First Yeah,

Clay Tumey (49:35):
he was there first he was there. And then thank you
and Alex got there

and Jason went together with Jason petition and

Clay Tumey (49:42):
that was just it was he just went by himself. And
that was their most of theirfirst time traveling
internationally. And Alex and Ihave talked before on the
podcast to about traveling andhe's, I'm going to ask you what
it's like to travel with Alexbecause From what he shared, he
doesn't seem like he's a big fanof airports and airplanes and

(50:05):
all that stuff.

I don't think Alex is a big fan of those things
now. But I would go anywherewith Alex for any length of
time. And I, I just found him tobe a great companion. I mean, we
got the extra legroom becauseRick book the right seats, and
that made a big, big, hugedifference. And I don't have

(50:30):
those memories, I just feel likewe were, we were just so tickled
to be off and doing that. And weare so happy to go.

Clay Tumey (50:37):
When we were at the conference, we had a, our
presentation was actually reallysimilar to the first one that we
ever did. That's, that's how Iexperienced at least where you
you gave a bit of a presentationand then did a panel with the
three of us, Alex, Rene and me.
And it was it was a maybe alittle small room. But there's

(50:58):
more people, it felt likethere's standing room folks in
the back. And I can I can, I canput in some clips, you know, in
editing just to share withpeople some of what was shared
there. But what what do youremember anything was anything
stick out as far as how theaudience was impacted? Or how
you felt sharing all this inanother country? And any

(51:22):
questions? So

what just came up for me as you as you asked me
that clay is, you know, I usedto always think that the next
group that I taught theEnneagram to was going to be the
task group like the one thatdidn't get it. And every time I
would come back and be sorelieved that they were just
people and we had that runningjoke, like did you did you meet
some more people I like thesame. And I would say that's,

(51:46):
that's what it that's whatstruck me that there were people
literally less wiping theireyes. And even when we finished,
people didn't immediately leave,there are lots of extra
questions. And people justwanted to hang out and be in
that space. Because I think whatthe three of you especially do

(52:07):
as you share so much from theheart as you and I know, I'm
part of that we just create afield of love for people to step
in. And that's what I remember.

Clay Tumey (52:15):
If so, at the at the conclusion, and you mentioned
people not really leaving, butit was the same as that first
year in Denver where I had to,okay, there's another thing
coming up, we got to get out ofhere because they need the room
kind of thing, which is a tripto me. Anything else from the
list that you want to get into?
I'm looking at I'm trying toread your notes, and I can't,

but you can. Okay.
I I feel like that was a goodstart to me. And it propelled us
right into going into Europe andleave we're going to be gone for
a bit. So what I remember thatpersonally is that I it was like
many months of travelinternationally for me and not
like, constantly. I did havetrips back home. But I learned

(53:01):
to be more mindful of myschedule and to be really
careful about how how long togo, because it's quite, it's
quite a thing, the time zonesand all that.

Clay Tumey (53:14):
What was after i Sweden.

Sterling President completed its second course.

Colorado. Yeah, that's right. It's pretty. I
think that one of the thingsthat's interesting there is just
that that particular prison wasable to start during the
pandemic, because it was thethey were they were set up with
enough technology to be able todo it. Virtually. So Suzanne,

(53:47):
and some of the folks fromColorado, really and Margo,
Margo, you were able to go andwithout going into the prison
were able to teach. And we didit two different times. And it's
it was it was a second one.
Yeah,

Clay Tumey (54:03):
there was a lot of assistance from the staff there
as well with the cameras and theTVs and the mics and to do a
zoom call with people who werelucky.

I will say that. I mean, San Mateo was another
place where we did a lot ofvirtual programming, well,
pandemic was happening. And theamount of energy and effort to
do that was especially by the bythe staff was immense. And, and
virtual programming is not thesame. You know, it doesn't have

(54:38):
to you don't you just can't havethe same connection. As we all
kind of know, now that we'vebeen through so many things,
doing things virtually, but youcan have impact. I'm not saying
you can't have impact, just notas much. But you know, when
given the choice between zero orvirtual, we would always choose

(54:58):
virtual because we will have theconnection of something, yeah,
it'd be able to, to reach outand reach into the spaces.

I think also in Sterling, we, we have this
beautiful partnership with amilestone mentorship program,
and they, they were looking forsomething that was exactly like
EPP. And I know you experiencedthat to clay and just working
with the guys as an ambassadorthat they they said this
completed what they were lookingfor it it was it was a great,

(55:29):
great match. And we are in, inconversation with other people
from within the the department,Colorado, Colorado Department of
Corrections, about how we canweave that into other programs
that they have. And I can't saymuch yet because it's not so
official, but they that wehaven't been able to program in
person since then, because theyjust don't have the staff COVID

(55:51):
has been really hard on thatfacility. And we are eager to
get back we are you know, doingstuff in the wings and getting
ready to get back there. Butyeah, just that was one of the
real silver linings of thepandemic, I was

Clay Tumey (56:04):
at their graduation to the the end that a prisoner
has a trip because it's in themiddle of nowhere. It's like
this little tiny town and theyare severely understaffed and I
think it's getting worse evensince I was there. But that
that's that that will be a goodplace to get back into when
things work out that's a good isa good facility to program at to
be at and there are like it'srare, like you don't I mean

(56:28):
still prison but like whenyou're on the inside there. You
can't even see razor wire, likeyou don't see the grass in the
in the in the inner part ofthere is so like pretty
ingrained that they also have apuppy program there. So that
plays a big role in and howfolks are I think and that's a
good, that's a good place to behappy to get back in there too.

Yeah, Susanne Gawreluk is keeping good track
of things there. And we'reready. When they're ready. We're
here.

Clay Tumey (56:57):
So it was next.

right about the same time we were I mean,
sometime during that summer, weyou and I and Gavin went to lose
prison. That was really, reallyspecial. And we were able to,
you know, in we were able totravel and go and in this loose
and and see it. A lot ofprogramming has happened in
there. Just to interrupt realquick.

Clay Tumey (57:20):
Who is Gavin? Gavin?

Who is who is Kevin?

Clay Tumey (57:24):
I know who Gavin. I know, obviously, but Gavin

Gavin is our third son. So he is now 18 years old
at the time he was 17. So he hadnever been in prison before.
Since then, he's actually beenin to say one but he had never
been into prison because youcan't get into prison. At least
in the United States. Unlessyou're 18 or above 18 or older.
What was your what were yourthoughts about lose

so many special things. It was it was one of
them being Gavin came with usand Gavin has been studying
French he he knows a lot ofFrench and I was really pleased
to hear him use it during hischeckup.

Unknown (58:02):
I can just imagine I was like a real shake in

your shoes moment.
And he just I mean I'm so biasedabout that point. But he just
opened up his heart and he saidquite a quite a bit and had a
lot of conversation with peopleat the break as well.

Clay Tumey (58:20):
Do you know any French I don't think Texas and
English and you said yes or noright

there said a little okay. It's almost as much
as I know I've learned how tosay I count and say I'm Type One
above and below the line andsometimes I'm not even sure if I
said that right? Yeah, yeah, no,I every time I'm there I wish
that I could just have thatfluency and I have fantasies
about being able to learnanother language I know I know
some Japanese and Spanish but noFrench

Clay Tumey (58:54):
for someone who studied French French here to go
around practice had to be I justI envy that sounds like a really
well, maybe not me but thatsounds really cool.

And a big shout out to Cecile who facilitated
that day and John Murray wasthere and just so you could feel
the relationship that they builtwith the with the people running
the running the place and theyhad four students who had taken
the class and had been hadgotten out and had come back. So
they were there and that wasvery special. The prison itself

(59:24):
is just so much more humane andit is still a prison. So we saw
that we got to take a tour. Andwhen we were in sort of like the
what do you call that? Werethere they were working on like
the where they were buildingthings they were they had a

(59:48):
whole they had a whole workroom,

okay, where they were companies were shuttling in
work that they were doing andthen and then they were being a
factory type of thing like afactory type thing. Yeah, they

Susan Olesek (01:00:00):
were doing some manufacturing things there was a
guy. What I really want to getto is a guy working on a sewing
machine and he was way in thequarter of this like kind of
warehouse area. And Rick nudgedme he's like, look, I looked
over it guys worried and EPPshirt. They don't have uniforms
like requirements like we do.
And I don't even know how thatthat shirt got in there like

(01:00:20):
that. It was so cool. We werelike, Hey,

Clay Tumey (01:00:27):
I'm busy. He was all smiles. Which, which? Which
shirt? Was it? Like how old wasthe shirt? It

was a long sleeve black shirt with the Enneagram
Prison Project. Probably

a good six or seven years old. It

Rick Olesek (01:00:37):
was it was a it was one of the shocking letters or
the older ones. Yeah.

Not the shiny, shiny the next.

version two,

I think of the shiny. Okay. I don't think I
have that. I have the shiny Ihave the flat. And then I had
was it was all black, though. Iknow which one you're talking
about. Okay, that's good.

They were just so they were so like it is
everywhere. And we had abeautiful check in lots of
sharing some tears. And then wegot to celebrate. And they had,
you know, cookies and cakes. Andwe just visited for a while and
we took lots of pictures. Andyou could just feel people

(01:01:23):
didn't want to go. They didn'twe didn't really want to end and
Eve and we lingered for a while.
And I think I don't even I don'tknow how many hours, it just
felt very spacious. And I haveto say I appreciate so much
people. Like Viva likes to see,like so many folks are willing
to just stand there and allow meto say what I wanted and to just

(01:01:46):
be trans, not just to translateso that I could feel on this,
like I was having my ownconversation. And it's such a
it's such a gift, right? Becausetranslation just takes twice as
long. And as soon as there'sanother person, there's one if
someone puts their other voicein there that now and one person
is not hearing the fulltranslation anyway, there were
lots of spaces where especiallyI felt a connection with

(01:02:10):
somebody and I wanted to be ableto say things and she just just
translate so much more than thewords you know, it's the spirit
of things that really comesthrough and it's always it's
always, so just come away fromthose kinds of visits really
impacted that. You don't alwayshave to know all the words that

(01:02:32):
were exchanged to really knowthat something profound has
happened.

You mentioned Gavin hadn't been to prison yet at
that point. Now he has.

He had he had been there. Now he even went to lose.
But he also came to thegraduation in January and
sanquin

and off so that was the last all three of your
children. Now all three of ourboys have been in Yeah. What do
they think? Like? What was theconversation like when you come?

You'll have to have that conversation with each of
them to know what Okay, here

are three kiddos who are not here right now.

A little Gavin spot. He'll be around this
weekend. He might be up forthat. I would love for you to
ask him and let him speak forhimself. I would cool. Well do.
We also got to stop over in inParis while we were in Europe.
And we had a beautiful sort ofpotluck picnic at EPP community

(01:03:28):
member's house and we got tomeet some of the incoming GTB
participants and the new boardmembers for the asbl in in
France and asbl That's thenonprofit

so it's the acronym for nonprofits in the for the
French acronym cool. I don'tknow the actual words for it. I
should know that. But how dareyou? How dare I not know the
French? This is on me that's onme. I'll take that

a lot of new blood coming in for from GTP eight.
And I could just feel how howmuch momentum and energy people
had right after that. So thatwas neat to land in that.

And then we also and then and then we and it was
it was so lovely. We had tospend some time with Eva and her
family that was really reallyspecial. And then we got to go
to the UK and have like a anoutdoor gathering with some of
the folks from the UK that wehadn't seen in a in a hot
minute.

Was nice picnic outside and some ice cream we
saw too and Christine and Dr.
Greenwald happen to be there tojust popped over in England.

Really, really?
Yeah. And that wasn't planned oranything. It was just kind of

it really wasn't that we did end up at a wild
Italian dinner with Dr.
Greenwald's entire family andthey were a hoot.

I'm trying to if I asked about that. I'll probably
say well, we'll have to get Dr.
Greenwald over here. I want toask so one of the comments in
The podcast, chat Slack channelwas from Sue Braithwaite one of
you know, the question posedthere in the channel was, you
know, what are some highlightsfrom the year that stuck out to

(01:05:11):
you, or meaningful moments,something like that. And hearing
you talk about everything overthere reminded me that she had a
comment here she said for me, ayear of continuing to be a
beginner whilst I'msimultaneously finding my feet
and my own voice, moving fromapprenticing in some programs to
being a co guide whilecontinuing to apprentice in
other programs, and she listed afew of the things there.

I like to just say something about su because she's
one of those delightful peoplewho comes to EPP with such a
beginner's mind, and such an aweand a willingness to be informed
and to try out new things. Allof that is really true about
her. And she is a sage beautifulguide and another own by in her

(01:06:04):
own right before she ever hitEPP and the coaching spaces that
she's come from in her work withjust the work. And we've been
working quite extensivelytogether on the human potential
lists and pioneering a lottogether. And she just I think
having having somebody of thatcaliber who can come in and then

(01:06:25):
take up this curriculum isreally, to me exhilarating
because they're like Oh, theplaces you will go is what I
feel about Su and and yet italso is so refreshing when
someone can just come in and notknow everything not and I am
excited. So excited for thisweek at home house for for Sue
and Moira and everyone else elsein the in the UK family.

She also said knowing that apprenticing is an
invitation to shine and succeedand belong not a way of finding
out that I'm failing or nofalling short, are not welcome.
Nice. And then she alsomentioned being part of a global
effort. And each local facilitycan Oh, this is where she talks

(01:07:08):
about responding to BIOS beingpart of a global effort and he's
local facility throughcontributing as a bio responder.
So I guess she's a bio responderresponder as well.

It's really busy this week.

We get an actual number of how many bow
responders are do we know thatnumber?

Or is that just a number exists? I do not know it.
It's

it's more than zero.

It's definitely it's somewhere. Somewhere
between 10 and 20.

That's my that's my thought really tell it's like
more than that.

Maybe it's between 20 and I have nothing to do with
this between 10 and 30 I thinkI'm pretty close. Okay.

Yeah, that's about right. Do you know more about
that than I do. I don't follow Imean

only logistically only because I'm the one that
ends up having to sit try towork through some of logistics
but Jason has taken so many ofthose things and an automated
them again, just a big shout outfor that. Jason's a badass I
know. I know.

By the way, we're I just want to wear like an hour
and Y'all good. We get we need abreak or how's everything feel
right now? I got all night. Soit'll be it will be your limit
that's tested, not my I think

we can go a little bit longer, but then we can. And
then we can we can cut for notill tomorrow. It sounds like
I'm sure there'll be otherthings that will percolate as we
kind of reflect on what wetalked about today.

share with you what Jody shared. And the same
channel that I referencedearlier. It's a tongue twister
to say podcast chats likechannel.

Sounds like when I'm going to try.

She says seeing ambassadors get more involved in
our programming. And in the dayto day at EPP has been the
cherry on top of all we do. Thishas been the sparkle in my year.
School. I agree. By the way, Godhas been the sparkle in mine as
well. So happy i This is herwords again, so happy. I've been

(01:09:04):
able to see and personallyexperienced their impact. What a
nice comment. That's cool.

Well, I think on that. We said it earlier that
one of the things that happenedin I don't know exactly what
month of this year, but Dustinjoined the Canadian board. And
in July, the Canadians receivedcharity status from the Canadian
government. So Canada got on themap this year and Dustin got on
the board and I'm not so surewhich one is even more

(01:09:33):
significant because it feelslike he infuses just all the
stuff we're talking about. Andit's a it's a lot to be, you
know, in charge of governanceand have to ask hard questions
and to be able to not knoweverything and be willing to be
in that space. And he'sremarkable, you know.

Also a interesting note is that of course you know
this clay Is that very difficultto get into Canada as an as a as
an ex felon?

Current felon? I still is on my record, I'm still
a felon. Yes. Yeah, it's a. Theprocess is started though, to
where we actually we just he andI just chatted about this the
other day about starting theapplication. So Canada's a
little bit different than someplaces like Australia, for
example. And I've joked, I'vejoked already about themselves,

(01:10:31):
I'll let him make it this time,as we say, poker anymore
undefendable jokes at him. ButCanada, you can actually go
through a process to be allowedin. Not an option yet for
Australia. But it's a differentconversation. But the it takes a
long time. I don't know how muchtime, I'm guessing it's like
four to six months, somethinglike that. And probably some
legal help, and some money andall that good stuff. But the

(01:10:54):
process has officially begun tosee if to see if they'll CFL let
one of us in and be a part oflegally. Legally, yeah, there's
not a chance in hell, I'm goingto Canada unless I have an
invitation. It's not happening.
And yeah, it's not it's inthere. I think Dustin, I'm just
going on memory. So I might beremembering it wrong. I think

(01:11:18):
he, I think he has. So there aresome hard restrictions, like you
have to be out this amount oftime, or you have to have this,
whatever. And I think those haveruled out some ambassadors just
on the minimum requirements. I'min position to at least ask. And
so we'll see how it goes. I loveCanada, I make a lot of jokes.

(01:11:40):
But I do wish I could go there.
And I really hope that I mean,I'm serious. I just I want to go
I want to go there I want to Iwant to be I mean not only for
this work, but I just think itwould be neat to go there. It's
weird not being able to go to aplace that is so nice. Well,

not just the place but the the facility because we
did really in earnest launch ourfirst facility in Pine Grove and
a women's facility inSaskatchewan. And that has, to
me, I think the Canadians havebeen very patient and very
diligent and trying to do all ofthe just grunt work to make all

(01:12:19):
of the paperwork real and to beable to listen to Laura Hooper,
big shout out for flying allover Hell's half acre to get up
there and stay there and be ableto get in there. And to Leanne
and Amanda now, havingapprentice there. It's real. And
they are to really sage guideswho have already had a heart for

(01:12:41):
questions even before EPP and itjust feels to me like so much is
going to flow from from thispoint on.

I'm glad Dustin's on the board. I think that happened
around December. Ish.

It feels right.
Yeah, it feels right.

I know that for the first time we had any kind of
conversation about it was likeOctober. And then a couple
months later, there was a yes.
So I think that's, I thinkthat's

the Pinegrove thing is a big deal. And not only is
it a big deal, because we're,we're programming in another
institution, one that Leannalready knew quite well, we also
identified someone who was justan unbelievable angel for us to
be able to do things I mean,this even just this last visit,

(01:13:28):
that we're Laura was there, andit's not my story to tell, but
I'll just give the, the, theoverview. And you can always
double click with her at somepoint, you know, or with Amanda
or with Leanne, but, you know,they started the Laura spends,
you know, in an ornament aninordinate amount of time to get
up there. And then they get intothe class and there she's 45

(01:13:49):
minutes in, and they're like upCOVID locked down. Gotta go. And
they locked the whole thingdown. And that was the first 45
minutes of a two day program.
And so,

it takes two days to get up there practically.
Right. Yeah.

And, and so and then, on the inside, there was
there was a few people on, youknow, in Pine Grove when in the
administration that went to batfor like, hey, we need to make
this happen. And the next thingwe knew they were they were back
inside again, Laura couldn't geta flight out that next day and

(01:14:26):
so it just happened that thatshe was able to continue with
Amanda and Leanne and they justdid three

modules in one fell swoop which is like a
marathon right they

did they did they did a morning afternoon and
evening. That's like nine hoursright? Yeah, I was.

And they called and they were like giddy giddy.
They were so like, touch happyand and triumphant and not
tired, just real exhilarationand the students on the inside
too. So they really had a lot ofstamina and a lot of You know,
camaraderie in the in theeffort?

Yeah. Do you hear from participants after a
program has completed? Like doyou have? Do you have anything
like, what you just said made methink that like, just imagine
them saying, Hey, Susan, we likethe little bit of it. But I know
that didn't happen, becausethat's not how it works.

No, this is that's Laura relaying that to me about
the students and Liam to Amanda.
We have a survey that we do atthe end. And then we go back in,
we see people again, like that,but we just there's no like, can
pick up the phone. We don'twrite to students generally in
between,

is there anything from the facility? About like,
do they, I don't even know whatthe word would be greatest, the
only thing that comes to mind?
Do they? Do they? Did theyassess whether or not like, it
went well, or, or anything likewhat what does that like from
you

doesn't assess us, but they do hear from our
students,

right. And we also give a

we have, please bring them back.

We have a few different surveys that we give
to the students. At the very,very beginning, we give them a
pre Outcome Survey. And thenwhen they when they are finished
with the program, we give them apost Outcome Survey. And we also
give them what's really asatisfaction survey. But it has
a lot of questions that arepretty open ended to ask, you

(01:16:20):
know, what did you feel whatcame up for you? And what would
you like us to know? Those arereally important for us. And
Anna did a great job, Anna Jonesdid a great job kind of taking
the the Pinegrove details, andthen converting it into
something where we could quicklylook at it and say, Oh, this is
this was the impact. And justthis one little, you know, one

(01:16:42):
little sliver one little course.
And I mean, we've done greaterthan 350 courses over a career.
That's wild. And so but in soand so trying to come up with
exactly how we want to reallyclick Close out a class and
really take the assessments andunderstand them. I think that's
something that's going to be onour hearts going into the next

(01:17:04):
year is again this back tobasics, like how are we doing
what we're doing? And and howcan we improve? And what are the
things that people arecommenting on?

This is a silly question. I'm happy to cut it if
necessary. But it has there everbeen any feedback from those
surveys? Like any one commentwhere it's like, oh, my gosh,
this is we totally missed this.
And then a change happenedbecause of it? Or is it usually
like you hear a bunch of a thingand make a change that way,

I think that we do a really good job of sensing.
And I think the guides arereally tuned in to what it is
that's coming up in theclassroom. So the things that
are coming up that needadjusting, usually get adjusted
in the class,

in real time, in real time on the spot or not on
the spot. But on that that weekat least.

And there is an there are so many things that
the guides because everyone iscoming to a guy call every week
where they can bring some ofthose challenges to the whole
population, say, Hey, I noticedthis or this came up and then
the and all the guides in thecommunity can then reflect on
that, listen to it, and thenreflect on what maybe they could

(01:18:17):
consider or things that they'venoticed or things that they've
noticed and what they've done intheir own in their own
classrooms. So

have a good example of that this

was just about to ask. So thank you.

Well, just this we even got a survey back for this
class yet. But I would I wouldbe surprised if it didn't hit
the survey. We have three deafstudents. And we have an
interpreter that is supplied bythe institution. And it's so
cool. They bring so much addedvalue and diversity to the to
the curriculum. And a coupletimes we've gone there and we
show up and the whole class isassembled, including our deaf

(01:18:50):
students, but we have nointerpreter. And so we can't
hold class we can't even havelike, no conversation. No and
nobody wants to. And also theare. It's just such an
impossible situation. And we arewe are definitely over at CRMs
office over at the you knowworking with the officers trying

(01:19:12):
to figure out all theworkarounds. Could we get a
laptop? Could we get a privateinterpreter we and we have
sometimes can't get all Wi Fi inthe chapel? How do we you know,
and just standing on our heads.
And it happened twice. And thenit happened actually not all
three times in a row but a thirdtime. And last time you went in
we were like we're not cancelingclass. Sorry, we're gonna figure

(01:19:33):
something else out. And sobecause Jason has has been so
great about making sure all ofour videos are are subtitled we
actually can't show them ifthey're not. We ran the whole
class by writing instructions onthe board. And like Socratic
practice, asking people to do awritten exercise and passing
their workbook to the personnext to each other. And then we

(01:19:54):
had them watch things that theydon't always have people Watch
the TED Talk, for example, andthen put them in groups and had
them have discussions and we putthe all three deaf students
together so they could supporteach other. And anyway, we are
agile, and we could figure thatstuff out. And I, whatever more
feedback we get, we're going tosit up and pay attention.

How did that work for the three deaf students?

This is what I mean. I mean, we, we didn't have
the debrief after that. But Ifelt like it was it was really
working. Because, number one, wedidn't have to disband, and
everybody wants to be there.
They really look forward to theclass, we really look forward to
the class.

I don't think a big part of it is also just the
effort like just the the give ashit involved in like trying to
make it happen, instead of Ithink it's, unfortunately, would
be really easy for some folks tojust, well, we can't we're not
going to sorry, we can do it.
But we're still going to do whatworks for everybody else, which
is like, What a bummer. Likethat. But I guarantee that has

(01:21:00):
to happen at some point, I'm

sure it does happen. We don't do that. Number
one that feels crappy. Do that.
And that's not that's not, youknow, equity, or inclusion. And,
and also, because there arepeople in San Quentin, who are
paying attention to that andadvocating for it, and they come
around in the in their checking,which I really appreciate. That
didn't happen these last coupleof classes. But yeah, I agree

(01:21:23):
with you.

Tough shit is not our middle of night. No. Deal
with.

I think you're I mean, people always ask the
question around, like, What'sour secret sauce? And what is it
that and I think that Susan, injail conference, you talked a
lot about this. We Susan waspresenting last night just a
couple of weeks ago. So it stillfalls under this one year. thing
in which she was presenting tothe California jails

(01:21:53):
Association, to a lot ofdifferent counties, badged and
mostly bad staff, but some onbad staff, and on bad staff,
someone who's not a sheriff inthe sheriff's department with a
sworn staff, but uh, so not apeace officer. But you kind of
talked a little bit about thatabout, like, what is our secret

(01:22:14):
sauce, and you were like,bringing a lot of love into the
room and unapologetically,right, and just, hey, we're, we
care, we give a shit. And sothat comes across in lots of
different ways. And when you dothat, then people show up.

That's a nice note to end on. Because if we do take
a break, I don't know, doesn'thave to be now. But the
California jail ProgramAssociation, I think that's the
right words in the right orderwas an invitation from Dr.
Wagner, who was literally theprogram coordinator manager, I
think as a role at that time.
The first place we wereprogramming, when Sheriff monk's

(01:22:53):
said come on in. And that wasour first really big contract.
Second big contract after SantaClara. And it was it was quite a
celebration to come in. Therewas Sue who literally, you know,
was a resident there before.
Both times since she Sue wasrecently. I think this is gonna

(01:23:15):
drop after that, right?

No, no, this is the last episode of this season. And
then soon as the first episodeof the next one. Okay,

well, preview. And so sue and Alex came to this
conference with us and we got totalk about all that we've been
doing that it really felt like acelebration of what kind of
partnership that is we'reseeking with institutions when
someone like Dr. Wagner and atthe time, Sheriff monk's and all
the other people that are aroundher and then do what it takes to

(01:23:48):
allow EPP to become one of thecornerstones of their
programming. We it's taken, it'staken a lot of years to, to
know, for each of us in ourpartnership to understand the
contours of the otherorganization and know where we
have to give and what we can't,we can't give on. And we got to

(01:24:10):
program with two other we had toEPP was presenting with two
other programs that were there.
And it felt for us like a realgift to see all the other things
that have been going on with us.
There's beautiful meditationgroup going on and jobs, our
train is there. Helping peoplehave a pathway and

to Job train. It says they do most of the
vocational work for in the jailsand on the outside for San
Mateo.

But Dr. Wagner said to whatever presented
whatever you want, but invite ifyou can invite people to know
that this is not just for thestudents. It's not just for the
people who are doing time here.
It's for all of us. And so wedid we invited that and Sue and
Alex just like dropped it. Andafterwards people came up to
them and said thank you forurine sample

kind of take a video crew and do stuff like that.

I know. That's that's an option.

We've done it before. Yeah.

And that was one of the what we what we have just a
few pictures. That's all we havethat that feels it feels a
little bit like, how could wenot have more but

I hit record. I don't know if it's okay. I mean,
it's just me talking but I didhit record because I wanted to
make sure we could capture whatAlex and Sue said so we might be
able to cut and paste somecrusty footage for that.

We won't call it crusty I mean Yeah.

On my phone was sitting on a chair behind Alex

was it better than the baseball video? Probably
better than the

A frame this is a Pruder film. Yes,

I don't know what they're talking about for the
rest of you listening.

He showed me a video earlier about baseball game

of Gavin Gavin video yeah but you somehow it
when it got set from you? Itwent from like this really like
pristine I could almost see thebase. I can almost see the
stitches on the ball to likeeight frames a second.

Oh, how sad that I saw Bigfoot.

Okay, we're winding down

to there's one more thing one more topic I want to
cover and then I want to dosomething else that was not take
a lot of time. I'm readingSuzanne. What the comment that
she left in the podcast, chatside channel. What do you say
the podcast chat Slack channel.
And her memory that she heardhighlight slash memory of the

(01:26:38):
year that she decided to shareit was attending the first
annual okay inaugural by theway, for first annual EPP
camping trip to be able togather in person to swim, sweat,
and socialize. Nicealliteration. I like that. Swim,
sweat and socialize, socialize.

And swear.

That was in August.
Yep. And we're doing another onein September. But that that was.
I agree. Suzanne, that was areally that was a highlight of
the year for me too, becausethat was the first time that a
lot. That's the first time thatanybody met my son Phoenix was
lovely. He took all theattention away from me, but we
won't talk about actually in thelast. My mom's it was probably a

(01:27:26):
year and a half ago when astartup in particularly the last
year ish with with an IPO andgame path to freedom. A lot of
folks have gotten to know mymom. And then at the camping
trip, people got to see themagical, young one Phoenix, my
son,

put him on a little spot

Hey, y'all, it's clay. And we are going to pause
the conversation here with Rickand Susan, so that we can share
a few words of appreciation forHalida Hatic. Halida is a guide
with EPP she's also thecommunity Weaver. And I've been
on the inside with her I've seenher guide on the inside. I've
been in many zoom calls with hermany other shared spaces. And I

(01:28:16):
will tell you that of all thethings that I appreciate about
Halida. At the top of that listis the safety and the holding
that she brings to any spacewhere I have experienced with
her. And I love having thisfriend, this person that I can
turn to and say, Hey, I have anissue with dot, dot dot, and

(01:28:37):
just trust that they're going tointerpret my issue correctly,
and then do something about it.
Because I don't always have theability to do that. So she's one
of my favorite people to turn towhen there is an issue, and I
trust her wholly and absolutely.
And I'm so glad that she is apart of EPP and again, I just

(01:28:58):
can't say enough nice thingsabout Halida I am comfortable
saying that this organizationwould not be what it is, without
her impact.

How do I love Halida Let me count the ways. I
already have a very positivebias for Type Eight and it is
always my my habit to say it'ssomething to be loved by an
eight that is really somethingto be loved by Aleta and I've I
get to be with you Lita and allkinds of spaces. Recently I was

(01:29:27):
teaching about Type Eight. And Iwas I was talking about this
quality of expansion, thisoverall quality of expansion and
I remember learning about AIDSfrom Russ Hudson and he said you
know he just kind of go outuntil they hit something and
they paint off of something andI feel like a really healthy
eight knows that when they comeup with something come up
against something they know howto be with that. And then to see

(01:29:49):
how we can move with whateverthe obstacle is and not just
like plow over it like Don'tDon't you know, and and Halida
said we are the ripples And Ifeel like that's, that's what I
feel like with Lolita. Sometimesshe's the big splash. But often
she's just the ripples going outwith so much like, think about

(01:30:10):
how graceful and symmetrical andbeautiful and perfect those are
liters of ripple. I

Dana Vitorelo (01:30:17):
really appreciate Holly does capacity and desire
to just keep it real. She'salways super kind about it. And
she never wavers in the truthand the areas that she feels
convicted in. And she just isconstantly stepping into right
action. And I, I often don't seethe bigger picture in the way

(01:30:40):
that Halida does. So I reallylove when she talks about
something or shares aboutsomething and I get to hear her
insights around it, because italways invites me to view
something in a way that Iprobably never would have viewed
it on my own. So appreciatingHalida Oh, and how can we leave
this part out? There's the waythat she phrases in articulates

(01:31:03):
everything, I mean, ourcommunity, whoever it EPP, but
just the way that she weaves instory and is relentlessly in the
work. So deep appreciation forHalida and gratitude that I get
to work beside her,

I get the privilege of getting to work with Halida
in so many different spaces. Andwhat, what always seems to come
up for me is that she she's ableto kind of connect with a source

(01:31:42):
that, that I that I kind ofdream of connecting with. And so
when when she is when she isreally grounded, in speaking to
me about something, whatever isusually whatever is the issue of
the day, she brings so muchwisdom for like how to really

(01:32:05):
like consider what it is thatthis maybe I'm looking at this
problem just backwards, maybeI'm looking at this thing, you
know, without enoughperspective. And I always feel
that like grounded wisdom, whenshe can get to that space. And
it's just it is, it's lovely tobe in those spaces, and I just
adore her and adore thee that Iget them. And I've just feel so

(01:32:29):
privileged that I get to spendso much time with her. And
besides the fact that she'sincredibly competent, and all
the things that she's doing,that's, that's kind of a given,
but the heart that she shows andthe way in which she's able to
just bring that heart online,just just love it.

Laura Hooper (01:32:49):
Oh Halida How much she has taught me about what's
possible, and how to hold all ofit. She has this way of really,
I think sometimes almost seeing,seeing what a lot of us can't
see, and the bigness of of whatwe're up to, and that that we
can all actually hold it. Andthis beautiful commitment to

(01:33:12):
community and all of us goingalong on this journey together.
I am forever amazed by her litascapacity, to hold all of us and
hold herself in the midst of, ofwhatever's going on. Really.
She's taught me a lot about howto how to lean into that, and

(01:33:37):
how to listen to, to my innerknowing. And my goodness, how
much we get done, because she'spart of the project and how much
we not just get done, but getdone with, with love and
intention. And I am so glad tobe in relationship with Halida

(01:33:58):
and everything that she hasbrought to my life personally
and to the project Halida Yourock and I love you to pieces.

Robin Grant (01:34:08):
Well Halida I'm not sure I could add anything more
than what has already been saidso beautifully. In this
appreciation message. I consideryou a friend and a colleague and
a really special human being.
You were one of the kindness,most thoughtful person, I think

(01:34:30):
I know. And the energy and thespirit that you bring to this
organization and to us as acommunity is really beautiful.
And I've always seen andperceived you as someone who
models our values and embodiesour values and inspires us to
lean into those values of trustand gratitude and flexibility

(01:34:54):
and doing the work together. AndI just don't appreciate She ate
how you definitely weave thatinto not only conversations, but
just with who you are. And Ireally appreciate you and I'm so
grateful that you are part ofour organization in our world,
and helping make this world abetter place.

One thing that I was thinking about was we
mentioned the San Quentingraduation in our conversation.
Yes, yesterday, and we never gotto it. We never really talked at
length about it. And it was a itwas a big deal. And it was also
something that was reallyimportant in our, you know, kind

(01:35:52):
of re rebooting after the, afterthe pandemic.

For for context that this episode will be after
another episode, where we talkedabout graduation at RJ Donovan,
with Mike and Suzanne, they camein, they happen to be in town on
vacation. And so they came inand joined us for graduation
that we did there, what you'retalking about is a totally
different graduation.

Right? It was a little bit before the RJ Donovan
graduation, it was one thathappened in San Quentin in
January.

So what was the big deal there?

Well, I would love Susan to talk about it. It was
she was it was her class thatwas graduating her in Cynthia's
class. And then you alreadygraduated, but it was a get
together of just some folks fromyou know, all the new and past
and past and present studentsand a few other people that came
into the into the space.

I think it was, it was really a marking of the fact
that we were able to startagain, number one, we've been
out since March of 2020. And wedidn't get back in until August
of 2023. No 2222. Thank you forthe dates, always. And so it had

(01:37:03):
been two and a half years. Andit was it did feel really
momentous. Just the fact that wewere able to program again, we
weren't having to wear masks,and that we could be in there at
all. And it took us a minute toform that class. It took some
rebuilding of trust, peoplereally felt abandoned the fact
that we weren't there, eventhough we really couldn't be

(01:37:24):
there. We made a choice not tobecome a correspondence program,
which a lot of other programsbecame. And we use the pandemic
to become better at and moreable to train more guides. In
hindsight, I wished we had, we'dlost our CRM contact that really
helped us to know our way inthere, we really didn't feel

(01:37:44):
like we had many resources. Andwhat's the CRM Community
Resource Manager to help justhelped us some so many ways to
figure out what was what, andnobody knew what was up then.
But I would have tried tocommunicate more in hindsight,
that was it was a hard learningfor us. And the truth is, we

(01:38:04):
never went anywhere. We'vealways just stayed the course.
So we got to come back in ittook us a minute to form the
class, we gave ourselves 20weeks to teach a 12 week class
and people were like any a whata lot of people had been
released. People didn't know howto sign up. And slowly but
surely, we ended up with twopretty good sized classes, me
and Cynthia and and it wasbeautiful. And by the end, they

(01:38:28):
were saying the same things thatpeople often say at the end of
our courses. And we were able tonavigate enough with going in
through mental health to havepermission to have a graduation,
we program in the chapel now,which we had a choice of where
to program and there are anotherone of the different classes and
we knew we'd sometimes be upagainst other people who would

(01:38:49):
like to use the chapel for theirown reasons. And we've
definitely had to sacrifice atdifferent times. But it meant
that when we wanted to have abig event like like we did, we
had space. And it's the firsttime we had so many people who
have positions of real influenceinside of the prison who came
and seemed to be aware of whatwe were doing. We had the chief

(01:39:12):
of mental health, the chiefpsychologist, we had a chief
psychologist who sits on theboard of parole. The warden came
and we just haven't had thatmany people before that
interested in what we weredoing. So it felt really good.
And there were a lot of funnymoments about it. I didn't I
didn't know the warden at all.
I'd never been introduced tohim. So I introduced myself and

(01:39:33):
asked him if he'd ever heard ofthe Enneagram and he said yes,
my wife often tells me my six isshowing and I was like oh my
gosh you know wardens got it gota type nosy as a type and
apparently his wife likes theEnneagram and it was right
before we started and I didn'tknow if it was okay to mention
that or not. I said I kind oflike made some reference to it

(01:39:55):
and then he put a five and a oneup in his hands and like saying
it's okay for everybody to know.
And I just think that's, that'sopen, you know, people on the
outside don't want people toknow what type they're working
with sometimes.

Oh, you mentioned the the folks that were there
that you haven't really had thatkind of get the word you use.
But basically the there weresome How did you say that?
Actually,

I don't know what I said. But muckety mucks people
who make decisions and havepower and influence over how
what we get to do.

So what what encouraged them to show up this
this time that you're talkingabout where that that didn't
exist previously? Like what wasdifferent that they wanted to
show up for that? Is it just amatter of inviting them? Or did
they had we always invited them?
And now they had a differentreason to say, a different
answer. Well,

a couple things, some of what you said, I have
made, I have been introduced tosome of the people in the
Department of Mental Health, wewhen we couldn't find our way
back. And we were one of thelast groups to come back into
San Quentin. And we had alwayscome in through the as
volunteers are still volunteers,but we came in instead through

(01:41:03):
the chief of mental health, andshe really has helped us
navigate something that wedidn't know how else to do. So
She then invited some of hercolleagues and helped me to
understand who else should beincluded. And so that that was
helpful. And I had connectedwith the psychologist on the
Board of Parole Hearings a longtime before and had just

(01:41:24):
recently made contact with himagain, so I just happen to let
them know

any game. So tell us a little bit more about the day
there about the event, thegraduation. What was special
about it.

I mean, there are endless special things about it,
not just the stage that I justsaid about who came. But a
really amazing part of the daywas that Chuck, who was released
during the pandemic, got to comeback into San Quentin through
the front gate. And Dr.
Greenwald helped to capture someof that, and maybe he'll share

(01:42:01):
some of his footage with you.
interviewing him at the frontgate, and even his walk all the
way in. I'm having deja vu, likewe've already talked about this
on a podcast. Have we

not on a podcast?
We've talked about it. And I'vetalked about it with others on a
podcast too. Okay, just justlike and I'm I haven't gotten my
hands on the footage yet. AndI've asked a little bit about
what happened? And the answer isusually well, we'll just let you
see the video.

Well, I don't want to steal Chuck's thunder, he
would be great to bring hisvoice in and

might have talked about it with Sue, which
nobody's heard yet.

Dun dun dun. Well, that's just quite a moment when
somebody gets to come in thatway. And there was a moment
coming through the Sallyport,where Chuck saw a CEO, that
Chuck's there and all his, youknow, looking really sharp, free
clothes, and they just kind ofdid a double take with each

(01:43:00):
other and so hard to put that tocapture that kind of moment into
words, but I could just feel thedignity with every step that
Chuck regained by getting to beable to,

to do that. I don't think you said this, but Chuck
is one of our ambassadors. And Ireally need to just sit down and
chat with him about that.
Because I think it's, it'salways, for me, at least it's
fun to hear. I don't know, maybefun is not the right word. But
it's fun to me to hear storiesof going back in for the first
time because everybody hasdifferent experiences where it

(01:43:35):
was really good in this way. Orit was there was an issue this
way, or sometimes things can bevery triggering, right? And it's
also cool to go back in and it'dbe among the people there who
are still incarcerated and youfeel like you can you get
special attention, like peopleare happy to see Yeah, it's a
it's a bit of hope. Like youlike Chuck being there is a
representation of of the hopethat is been realized, right,

(01:43:58):
that you can get out and he

was he was definitely I mean the the
central focus for the for thefor the day. And he sat and we
were we were in the chapel andall the chairs had been taken
out of rows and then we weresitting in a very very large
circle, you know, in the entirechapel and Alex and have like

pews there don't they? They did, did they?

They did but I think the pews got left out in
the rain or when they werecleaning them they got warped
and then they got tossed.

Okay, so no more

it's all chairs now. But it was a was Alex and
Chuck and Susan in kind of thefront of the room. And and Alex
and Chuck got to spend a goodamount of time talking about
this, the two of them, talkingabout what and Susan
interviewing them kind of likeasking them questions, but just
never being able to talk aboutwhat it's like to come back into

(01:44:58):
a facility that they've done.
The timing,

and it was also really beautiful because we got
to invite back. Some of ourgraduates from past classes who
really didn't, we hadn't seen,they hadn't come by they people
had other, you know, thingsgoing on. So as they, they were
probably 75 of us or so in thein the group. And then we got to
sort of remember moments andinvited them in as part of the

(01:45:24):
flow of everything. And I wasvery special. And afterwards,
when we had a lot ofconversation with people that we
just had not, we not been ableto, you know, I wanted to hug
that couldn't do that, but wecould really reconnect.

See you opened a picture up on your phone? I
can't see what it is, but itlooks like a good one.

Yeah, this is a picture of all of us afterwards,
we don't have I don't thinkthat's everybody. I think maybe
someone had to leave one or two.
I see Chuck's not in thatpicture. So he's already gone.
But like I said, it was it was abeautiful event, there were some
mic drops, especially by Alexand Chuck. And and also the
students who just graduated whoare saying things, frankly, like

(01:46:03):
people who've been with at thiswork for a long, long time, and
many of them have they've therebeen, you know, in for two or
three decades. And they arestarting to see what we see why
what the person from the boardof roll can see is that this is
a tool that helps to connectpeople back to like, connect the

(01:46:24):
dots up, as we say all the timeon this podcast. And one of the
take a pause here and think whatI want to say is actually don't
know if he wants to be named

guy this morning, bleep it afterwards,

that will just say this. Is that? Is that one of
the things that really struck mein that? There wasn't it was?
Yes, of course, it was thestudents that were just had just
matriculated. Right? It was thestudents from before that were
able to really celebrate withthem. And then it was also we

(01:47:04):
had we were we were there with alot of folks from EPP guides and
other visitors. How

many people would you say like altogether? 75.
From EPP Oh, like that we

that we went I think we cleared 25 Okay. 25 so
pretty good chunk. Yeah, we arein. And it was a Yeah. And, and
so we were able to hold a lot ofdifferent spaces. And it wasn't
just a celebration of like agraduation, it was also, you
know, broke into small groupsand had conversations and, and,

(01:47:38):
and talked and types. And it wasreally, it was just there was a
lot of holding happening thatday. The role to bring, you
know, refreshments and stuff inwhich is always, always a big,
big draw. The shockingly, the webrought in all these refreshing
world cookies,

exactly.

Shocker. Nothing, nothing was left. Yeah.

We always want to do that. And it's just extra
hard to try to figure out how todo it. But what I what I want to
get to is that afterwards, Tarahosted us at her house for tea
and cake, which was deliciousand beautiful. And we invited
the people who we invited to theevent to tars as well. And they

(01:48:26):
came Yeah. And so then we got toreally have even more connection
and conversation. And so thechiefs were there and the the
people that we've been workingwith the Enneagram, I've
actually been taught some of thechiefs from San Quentin and from
some other places with Dr.
Greenwald. And then in walks thewarden with his wife who I
didn't invite because I didn'tknow who he I mean, I knew who

(01:48:48):
he was definitely know who heis. But I didn't have that
relationship with him. And whatI found later was because now
we've gotten to be a lot moreconnected, especially to his
wife. I think this will be okayto say is that he came home,
they live on the grounds at theprison. And he said to Kim, you
want to go to an Enneagramthingy. And she does love the

(01:49:08):
Enneagram and she's like, oh,what? And he's like, Yeah, I
just went to this event and thechapel was really cool. And so
he came and he brought her andthey just came like a breath of
fresh air and he's he's as sixas they come and so warm,
earnest, do the right thing kindof guy you can feel his heart is
in, in the work where ours is.

(01:49:34):
And he's been he loves SanQuentin. And he loves his job
there. And Kim has lovedEnneagram for a long time and
has not worked at San Quentinjust for a little little bit.
And at the end when we had to gowe had lots of conversation
recognized with them and theyjust weren't making the rounds
like they were just EPP family.
And we we clicked our glasses. Ithink Chuck was the first one

(01:49:56):
that had to go and I just askedhim Nobody wanted to say
anything, I wasn't gonna makeeverybody go around and say
another word. And he was thefirst to speak. And his name is
Ron from field. And he said, Ihad a really hard day today. And
he had sat next to Rick andshared some of that with you. I
think in the event, he couldn'tstay for the whole thing. And he

(01:50:16):
said, I just needed to gosomeplace today were good things
were happening. And this is aplace for good things are
happening. This was the wind inmy sails today. He said, and
boom, I was like, well, we wouldlove to always be the wind in
your sails. anymore that, butyou know, he could say anything

(01:50:36):
or say nothing. And he chose tosay that. That's pretty cool.

I don't know what that was like for Chuck to hear
that. I said, How long has hebeen working there?

least four years or so?

I'm not sure. I think he came in right in the he
wasn't the warden for a longtime and that he came in at in
the pandemic, right? Yeah.
Acting Warden, right, about thesame time of the pen that we
could probably look it up. Butyeah, and he's no, he's now he
was

there when Chuck was,

he was there when Chuck was

Unknown (01:51:08):
cool. That's saying that as Chuck about.

So then what I think the other thing was I, I
followed up with the folks thatcame afterwards. And I followed
up with Cliff crusade, who'sthis person from the one of the
commissioners that I talkedabout, and he spontaneously sent
me a report he'd been writingfor the board to talk about his
time. And I could tell this issomebody who's also tracking

(01:51:33):
what we've been doing. In fact,there was an event, I found,
just before we startedreprogramming again this summer.
And the, one of the students inour class said, two people from
or one person from the borderpatrol came, it wasn't Clif, but
it was somebody that he workswith. And so here's a guy who
just, I don't even know halfliterally stumbled into our

(01:51:57):
program doesn't didn't reallyknow what it was. And then
before you know it, he's goingup to a, he's he's sitting in
the audience, listening to apresentation during mental
health week about programs towatch in San Quentin, and the
and he's actually the MC. Andthat person who's standing next
to says Enneagram Prison Projectis one of those programs that we

(01:52:18):
feel like is really, you know,doing good work here at the
prison. And he was like, I'm inthat class. Even know, what do
you had a hold of? I'll tell youby the end, he definitely
definitely did. So. I've, I'vesince met up with Cliff and he's
a Type One. And he reallyunderstands and he's willing to
help me to understand more aboutthe board and maybe even getting

(01:52:42):
a chance to present theEnneagram in more of a
methodical way to the differentcommissioners so that they can
understand when people aresitting in front of them what
kind of questions to ask toactually be on the right track,
as you know, to because theirwhole job is to determine
whether or not somebody's readyfor release.

Do you know what they look at Lego what it is
about? Because if you go if yougo before the board, and you
have gone through EVP, or you'vegone through some kind of
similar programming like it, itlooks a different way to the
board. Do you know what theirwhat they consider what kind of
things they look for what theyanything around that

I would definitely point you to some people who've
gotten out recently who havebrought up their, their time in
Enneagram, Prison Projectcurriculum to the board during
their hearings, or who have beenasked about it. And I could slip
you that list of names becauseI'm talking to them, too. That's
what I'll be presenting at theIEA this summer. And to that

(01:53:40):
shout out to that, what I'vebeen hearing from them
informally. And also what I'vebeen hearing from Cliff is that
they really want to know if youcan talk about your past, you
can talk about it honestly,without being flooded with
shame, having compassion foryourself, having compassion for
your victims, and being able tohave an honest narrative about

(01:54:02):
what happened. And what I'veheard is they don't care if you
can, you know, get all theEnneagram speak down. That's not
That's not their job. They don'tthey're not after that they want
to know, are you? Are you reallyon the healed path healed enough
to come back and not beretriggered? So you can you hold
on to yourself? Well, I just Ithink I'll just say one more

(01:54:23):
thing about that, since thatevent. We have there's been an
announcement by Gavin Newsom,Governor California to put what
was the budget, remember $20million towards the Norway
prison model at San Quentin. Andso there's a big push for a step

(01:54:44):
in the right direction. I mean,I think we all know that the
problem was probably bigger than$20 million. But if there's an
interest in taking some of whathas been going on in that part
of the world and applying it tofolks in San Quentin, my
goodness, we want to be a partof that and

But for somebody who might not know what that is,
what is the Norway prison model?

Well, I can, I don't think I can describe the
whole model. I know, I've beento some prisons in Norway. And
it's not like what they're doingin San Quentin. When I was in
Norway, they had a very, verycompassionate approach. They
were really about healing theywere about normalizing. The way
that the way that people aretreated and not normalization,

(01:55:30):
as in normalizing the violenceand the marginalization, but
helping people to see so you'reon humanity. Yeah. Human
humanizing. Yeah, humanizing.

In just a small little snippet, as Susan, just
reflecting something that Susanhad told me, is that there's a
lot of movement back and forthbetween the prison and, and
society. It's not somethingwhere it is where you're just
locked up. And, you know, and,and you're not going to see the

(01:56:05):
light of day until it's time foryou to leave. There really is
this like, slowly moving towardssomething where people can, can
can get back into the, into, insmall ways back into society and
be able to, again, be able toreenter, because that's what
the, that's what they're, that'swhat their rehabilitation that

(01:56:27):
they're shooting for, is is to,is to help folks to be able to
reenter

to actually, oh, I don't know, rehabilitate. Right.
About there. I'm not shy aboutmy opinions about how we do how
we do prisons up, but I justmake you feel to

hear about it.
Clay, are you dubious, are youI'm skeptical?

Yeah, I think I won't say that I'm, first of
all, any conversation that's inthat direction, I'm for it. So
even if it's people who don'tnecessarily believe in, I'm
still supportive of theconversation I'm down for, if
you want to try, I'm down tohelp you try or get out of the
way while you try. Whateverwhatever I can do to support

(01:57:11):
what we currently do doesn'twork. And so anytime somebody is
acknowledging that, whetherdirectly or indirectly by trying
a new thing, I'm thumbs up tothat. And I also think that I'm,
I'm just not very likely to golike, celebrate simply at the
admission of what we're doingdoesn't work. So I'm like, okay,

(01:57:32):
cool. Yeah, it's awesome. Thumbsup, I'll wait and see how it
goes. Or if or if, or if I'minvited in, if I'm invited into
directly help. I'm down. It'sall that. So I think culturally,
we're we're starting tounderstand that we kind of suck
at how we do prison, like itdoesn't work. Right? I mean, it
just, it just people get out andgo back people. It's, it's a

(01:57:54):
waste of money. The for profitthing is a whole like, are you
trying to get me into full blownrat mode here by not stop, I'm
just like, that's what prison ishere. So any any step away from
that I'm done with, I'm good forgood with. And I know that there
are places like RJ Donovan, andI have more experience there. So
I'm not leaving out San Quentin,I just don't have I don't have

(01:58:17):
the experience at San Quentin,the way that I do it are Judo
but I can I've seen where thingscan be better here in America.
And I know it's possible. AndI've also seen places where it's
still like, borderline thirdworld country style of prisons,
where people get out and goright back. And it's, you know,

(01:58:37):
I like it. So from theconversation with Mike and
Susanne, from the previousepisode, and Mike says one of
the things that historically hasbeen one of my bigger triggers
about it, you know, if you dothe crime, then you do the time.
And that's how we think of it inAmerica. And he and by the way,
he said, That's not what he seesanymore. It's not how he thinks.
And that's not that's not, itjust doesn't make sense. And so

(01:59:01):
it's, it's, it's fun seeingpeople gradually get away from
that. And you know, like, a few100 people out of 300 something
million is a tiny, tiny step,but it's a step. So anyways, I'm
torn. Between the two of werelike, Yeah, I'm down for
whatever. And also, I believe Iwant to see it.

Yeah, well, I don't think I don't know, what
were you said not dubious? Didyou say do these skeptics? I'm
not, I wouldn't almost everclassify myself as a skeptical
person, but I am finding moremeasure inside of myself. Like
we've been at this for 11 years.
So slow process. And I thinkit's, it's awesome. Let's, let's
see and hear more of that. Andwe absolutely want to be a part

(01:59:41):
and it's gonna take a minute,you know, it's not gonna happen
overnight.

Well, even in those 11 years, like this is where
it's really easy for me to beyou know, optimistic because I
remember the conversation 11years ago, where it was I did
you know, talk you did thisthing and This small prison in
Cleveland, Texas. And it worksand there's hope and there's
potential. And the conversationthen was very dream focused of

(02:00:09):
like, this is what could happen,or this is what, you know, this
is what we think is possible orwhatever. And it was very dream,
it was very dreamy. And eventhough I believed in it, then it
was still very dream oriented.
And we're now you know, decadeplus down the road, there is
evidence and there's experience,and there's places where it's

(02:00:30):
like, we still have big dreams,like of what I would do not want
to miss. Y'all smiled at eachother for the I had a moment of
sparkles. But that's that, likenow it is a thing that we can
instead of saying, Well, youknow, what could happen, we can
say what this is what ishappening in, in San Diego and
San Francisco and, you know, in,in, there are several places

(02:00:53):
where good stuff has happened.
And so it still there still isthe hope and the big dreamy
conversations. And but there's alot more history and evidence to
support what the dreams are, Ithink. Right? Which is really
good. It's really cool. Yeah,that there's a subtle,

one of the one of the songs.
I think one of the things that Ihave seen since this and, you
know, Susan, Susan was inCleveland in 2009, so almost 14
years, almost 15 years ago, isthat the conversation around

(02:01:40):
corrections in the United Stateshas changed. And it's changed
for a lot of reasons. And I'mdefinitely not going to get on
my soapbox. But I have a lot ofpush. No, but but but I think
that there is this thing, wherewe can start to see that in as

(02:02:01):
things become, as people canstart to see what's possible,
you know, through some of theglobal conversations, of seeing
how other countries docorrections, and seeing how, how
some of those some of theseprograms can work in in places,
then there really isn't anyplace to hide anymore. For for

(02:02:27):
what would have constitutedcorrections, back in the 80s, or
the 90s. Right there, that justdoesn't fly anymore. Just like
that's, it's not. And so what Ithink I'm also seeing is, is a
lot of folks who as people canstart to see things that are

(02:02:48):
that work than the people thenthen they actually even the
administrators or people in thesome of the other
administrations can actuallycome up with some of their own
hope, and say, Oh, maybe wecould try this. And it all
starts with just tryingsomething. Yeah. And, and, and
then and then you know, kind ofa little bit of a spark happens.

(02:03:08):
And then someone else tries itin the summer. And so there's
these, you if you go around theUS for sure, you can see lots of
stories of, of ways in whichpeople are doing different
things in corrections,especially around the the the
programming and mental healthand there's a lot so I I do feel

(02:03:28):
like there is a we are in thisspace where there's opportunity.
And there's opportunity forchange. And it doesn't come
doesn't come without a lot ofjust what feels like a lot of
time and energy. But it werepushing back against something

(02:03:50):
that was you know, pretty,pretty darn difficult,

pretty archaic.
And, you know, it strikes meclay when you say what you said
about it being a dream. I preferthe word vision for the record.
Sounds like it's just completelypollyannish Yeah, I don't know
why that doesn't look like it'smade up.

We had a conversation before the mics
were on earlier and we talkedabout dreams and they were
foretelling dreams were and sothat I when I say dream, I'll
say vision, if you prefer, butto me dream is not like lala
land. It's not a land of makebelieve. Like it's, it's the
things that you dream about. Andlike this is, you know, the hope

(02:04:35):
the dream the vision, like thisis a thing that isn't currently
here. And, you know, it's peoplesay stuff like it's the things
that dreams are made of. Right.
And I and so that I'll sayvision,

no. I like I like the way the context that you're
bringing me back to and I thinkI've been patted on the head one
too many times for like, that'snice, sweetheart. You know, like
and that's not. I know, that'snot what you're saying. And it's
not how I feel either. Yeah, soFair enough. But I like vision
too, though. Right now,

we lost space up there just for,

like, came to life with. Yeah. And, and it was, you
know, either way a dream or avision was just in someone's
head, right? It's definitely inmy head was in my heart. And I
remember a spiritual guide Iwork with at one point said, you
know when you finally live intosomething that's been in your

(02:05:31):
mind or in your heart, it's beena dream or a vision, you don't
always have like a ticker tapeparade going off, because you're
ready to be it for it to be yourreality. And that's what I was
starting to feel as you weretalking right there that we've
come a long way. And it isn'tjust, oh, maybe someday, it's

(02:05:52):
like, we probably could be in alot more institutions than we
are if we wanted to. Because wedon't have a hard time giving
people a bunch of references totalk to and to, to say this is
our track record code, talk tothe people who are currently
implementing these programs withus. And so it feels it feels

(02:06:12):
damn good to be in the spacethat we are knowing we know how
to do the programming that we'redoing. And in some ways, if
we're here forever, you know,we're just getting started.

Yeah, right. And I want to just call it one other
thing out, which is, what we'verealized is that, it can't be,
it can't just be us. And so weare always in on the lookout for
and in, you know, look on thelookout for is probably the
right word, or a phrase forangels on the inside people who

(02:06:48):
actually can, can dream with usor have the vision with us, and
who are just wanting somethingto be different also, and are
are able to, to make thingsdifferent, because they have,
you know, the power on theinside to be able to do that
whatever it is, even if it's ifit's clearing people or getting

(02:07:09):
space or, or just, you know,introducing us to the right
people so that we can bring ourprogramming in whatever it is
these, these angels that wetalked about. And you know,
certainly with Heather being oneof those people that went to
Clinton, you know, she was therebeing able to just document
chuck stuff, and, and it's in itand she's done so much for us.

(02:07:29):
And there's so many others thathave been doing that for us,
too.

So when you say Angel, can you get? Is there a
clear definition of what thatactually for somebody who
doesn't necessarily know or havea lot of context? Is that is
that facility? Can is it'ssomebody

employees, it's somebody well, whether it's
state employees or not? I mean,sometimes students? Yeah, okay.
So as a student, sometimes it'ssomebody, someone who is touched
by what is possible, and has theability can see they can look at
the landscape of that prison,and or that jail, and be able to

(02:08:07):
say, I can see how we can dothis, and then actually start to
help manifest it.

So it can even a chaplain at a county jail.
That's right.

Right. Even, I would say the clerk who works
with the chaplain in the prison,and we have many clerks like
that, that we've come intocontact with over the years that
every time we walk in the same,the same clerk is there. And he
not only Oh, my goodness, likemakes all the tech work hooks up
the video, I don't have to touchany of that stuff. He also knows

(02:08:40):
when to come interrupt me in themiddle of class to tell me
something that I might need toknow. He also knows how to pull
out the phone directory and helpme call all of the different
dorms and pods and places tomake sure that people who aren't
showing up can show up he likeall that advocacy that helps.
Because I don't know how to doany of that. And I don't even I
don't even know how to ask howto do any of that. Right? So
this angels, I think, are justpeople who know something we

(02:09:03):
don't know and know how to getit done.

What would be something they would interrupt
class for to come tell you aboutthat? You didn't know? What
would you said that it's

a good one. I had a student before the pandemic
who was at our course for, Iwould say two years more or
maybe a little less. And I wasinterrupted in the middle of
class A couple months ago. Andso I just put my hand up like
I'll be right here. I'm likeliterally leading something. And

(02:09:33):
I came out and the student Iknew had been found suitable and
he had come to the chapel to saygoodbye and let me know he was
being released in the morning.
And I was so happy to beinterrupted because I would go
meet lots of people at the gateif I only knew when they were
getting out. We just don't havethat kind of infrastructure to
even be in touch with peoplethat way and he not only was
just about to get out is aboutto get out and go to a really

(02:09:55):
shitty place. We were able toget in front of that or at least
Become aware of it and be partof his team to help him to not
end up there forever. Andanyway, that was a good reason
to interrupt.

What is the, for somebody who's never been on the
inside, either as a visitor oras a resident or as anything
else and might not know muchabout prison? What's it like to
celebrate something like that?
When there are such very strictregulation around contact? So I
couldn't even give like a highfive or a hug or anything like
that.

I've shaken like a hearty handshake to handle
handshake is all I'll do. Andyou know, people don't I mean,
you know, this clay but it's,it's not only because it's just
a no, no, it really couldjeopardize somebody's whole
future, they can get in a ton oftrouble for over familiarity as
good i. So I just I'm good atcontaining and suppressing that

(02:10:50):
kind of comes with thepersonality. And you can convey
a lot with a smile with youreyes with your words. And I did
give him a really big hug whenhe got out. Yeah, but not

on the inside. So weird that they their hug is the
big is probably one of thebigger no knows that there is on
the inside of this. It's thebig, it's the thing that you
want to do. It should be thething that's allowed. And it's
not any soap boxes.

No soap boxes, but I will say that it's when you
when you see corrections inother countries, different. It's
different.

Yep. Oh, my

goodness, on the way into the jail in Belgium,
everybody's, you know, threevisas on each kids, she can
learn, so happy to see you. Andnot just all that, not to all
the detainees. That's not true.
But certainly the correctionalstaff are that friendly with
each other.

It's one of the cooler things about being an
ambassador and going inside, forwhatever reason, we totally have
the green light for the ol,like, the high five that goes
into a hug, or like the highfive handshake, whatever we call
that. The lit, it goes into likethe one armed hug. And then the
other one. And nobody ever saysanything about that. Yeah, I
don't know why that is, but itis. So I just I'm not going to

(02:12:07):
ask I enjoy. I mean, I've donein front of of staff, like
wardens, they don't don't care,we get a pass on a lot of things
like that, which is super cool.
So he's to make me nervous, butnow it's just like, they'll let
me know when it's not okay. Ithink part of it honestly, is, I
think they still see us. soundsnegative to say it this way. But
I think they still kind of theydon't fully separate us from

(02:12:27):
that group. And so it's okay,that

one time where that's a fringe benefit.

Yeah. That's a good way to put it. And so I just,
we've done that in classes whereyou know, sometimes at the end
of class, there's a panel thatwas a little tougher, some
things came up and a personmight stay behind the process a
little bit extra, whatever. AndI've been at places where there
were no words, it was just anextended hug. And, and the thing

(02:12:56):
is, you know, like the I got youkind of thing, like it's, I'm
here, right? And I might beleaving today, but I'm still
here. You know, that kind ofstuff. There's certain things
that can only be communicatedthrough through a hug like that.
So we get the past so we use it.

I think there's one more thing I want to say. I
think if I don't say it now sortof like, I feel like I'm leaving
out an important thing thathappened this year. That's more
somber. I mentioned when wefirst started talking about the
biographies that one time astudent named John came in and

(02:13:35):
he written the biographyovernight and he had you could
see how much like toxicity hadcome out of him just in putting
it down. And it was really itwas really significant because
he touched us so much, andeventually was transferred to

(02:13:58):
prison. And I got to be incontact with his fiancee at the
time who married him and theyactually asked me to marry them
but I wasn't allowed to buy thefacility which was those budget
logistics I can guess I canunderstand that even though I
wanted to.

Can you marry people?

I have married people I didn't know that well.
You could do in five minutes onthe internet it's not like I'm
not like Alex Senegal who's likeall official I just did a
document on the internet it'sit's legit just to say everyone
Susan I think I'm nine years in

they call me not sure your reference a

piece of papers I just want to say it's it's
nothing but a formality I'vedone on the internet. And I did
marry a good friend of mine.

Cherry on reverend.
But you weren't allowed to

wasn't allowed to.
I did stay in touch with Johnover the years and and he had a
up and down time and transferredto a bunch of different prisons
and he wasn't And suppose to getout for 20 years. But I do have,
in my mind a way of imagininghow things will be for somebody.
And I always imagined that Johnwas going to get out early and

(02:15:11):
be an ambassador. And I foundout just about a week ago that
John died. And I had heard thathe just transferred to RJD,
which is a place where weprogram and I didn't know that,
and I was about to connect withhim. And, and then I heard all

(02:15:33):
of that in this in the space ofjust a few short days, and I'm
in touch with his, his widownow. And it hit me really hard,
because it, it is a lot ofcelebration that we're here
talking about. There's a lot ofthings that have a lot of
progress that's been made. And Iknow, John, John's life was not

(02:15:53):
for naught. He has a beautifuleight year old daughter and his
and his wife. And he's theperson who I talked about on a
on a did that TEDx Eisah. Andalways felt so much hope and
that man, and there is realheartache that I just wanted, I

(02:16:15):
just want to name a note. Andit's not all joyful progress.
And look, what's happeningsometimes is just really crappy
things that shouldn't havehappened. That did. And I don't
know how he died. I'm not hereto comment on it. I don't want
to. I don't want to I don'tknow. I don't know. But he was

(02:16:36):
too young to die, and yet a lotof life in him. And so just want
to have a moment of silencetribute to John and all he
inspired me, because it was ahell of a lot.

You said you're in contact with his wife. Yeah. Is
she? Does she have any interestin like a she around any of our
any of our groups or meetings orcalls are

coming to reconnecting a little bit? She
doesn't live locally? Us 4242.
We're gonna see you tomorrow. SoI'll definitely be connecting
with her. But I don't there's alot. I have a lot of questions.
And I can't wait to give her ahug. A hug. I didn't get to give
it to John.

Yeah. What a bummer.
It's sad. I think it's worthsharing the heart, along with
the joy and celebration, becauseit keeps it real. And it's also
just part of what we experience.
And I think we I think there'sso much pain that we just we
claim to all the joy that we cansometimes. And to the extent

(02:17:49):
that we try to forget the pain,which is not fair. It's not
fair, both to herself. And justthe reality of life

is a beautiful way of putting it clay. I think
that's really true.

Any, anything? I don't know how to segue from
that. I'll just say that outloud. I don't I don't, I don't
like to just go and just jumpinto something.

I don't either. I don't know that there's a thing?
Is that really the note we wantto end on? And then I just kept
thinking about it. And I thoughtlike, how, how? How could I not
mentioned John?

Yeah, that would be a bummer. I think. Right?

I just think ending with our hearts open my
heart is is really impacted byhim by the loss of him. And by
all he inspired while he washere.

I think that that that love three thing is right
here in front of us where we canhold both the joy and the sorrow
and try to find that reconcilingforce somewhere. is important, I
think for all of us, just to belike you were just saying to be

(02:19:05):
in the real and no. Prison isvery, very difficult, and
sometimes near impossible to, tonavigate.

Or understand. The, you're reminding me of the
ending of the book that I wrotethe autobiography about my life.
And at the end of it theafterword. Actually, the first
two words are prison sucks. Andif the message that you get from
this is that prison is a greatplace to go and just fix your
life then right maybe that's thewrong message. Don't try this at

(02:19:44):
home is this. It just for me, itworked and for others it works
and so it is there's there'speople that I know through my
connection to prison and mycrimes and all that stuff that
that are lifelong family as faras I'm concerned. And in prison
doesn't get credit for That'sright. That's just kind of how I
think of it. The prison totallysucks. And it just so happens

(02:20:05):
that good things happen there.
And good people go there. Andhave your phones lit up at the
exact same time, actually,

because I'm Amazon package just arrived at our
door.

That would make sense. Yeah, that's, that's,
that's funny. I don't I want toend with, there's more to talk
about, we can talk about. But Ido have a couple of questions
actually. Maybe simple. Maybenot is just, if in the last 12
months, if somebody says, Hey,so what's the highlight of year

(02:20:40):
11. With EPP what's, what's thefirst thing that pops away?

I can take that I can say, I said earlier that we
made a choice not to become acorrespondents program. during
all that time in the pandemicmean, we've talked so much about
the pandemic and what we wereable to do with it. GTB eight is
a damn good way to train peopleto be future guides. And we, we

(02:21:08):
have opened back up and we're wehit the ground running and we
have our foundation set, we knowwhere we're going, we know who,
who we're about. And I'm, I'mjust so glad that we got our
arms around that while we hadthe time to do that. And so a
real highlight for me is to seethe new crop of people new blood

(02:21:30):
coming in and to feel the joyand the leveling up the
evolution of these new folks whocame on the shoulders of so many
people who stood in the trenchesbefore them as, as a huge
highlight for me, when we got alot of people were trying to
figure out how to get into theirfirst apprenticeship, but that's
what we're focused on. And we'regonna do it, we're gonna do it

(02:21:50):
so that we can open up morefacilities and more Johnson the
world.

Unknown (02:21:56):
About you, Rick? Yeah,

I think my, my highlight is probably very
similar to Susan's, but I thinkit's, maybe I'll just say it a
little differently, which isthat we did spend a lot of time
during the pandemic, like lotsof people, really understanding
how we could be as anorganization and how we compete

(02:22:20):
with each other, and create whatI sometimes talk about the
infrastructure for being able todeliver these programs, not just
here, but around the world. Andmy highlight is that we are now
able to go back into prison inlots of ways and, and be able
to, to be doing the work thatwe're supposed to be doing. And

(02:22:43):
doing it with, with so many justincredible folks that can they
can hold the spaces that theythat they're asked to hold. And
like Susan said, and find moreand more people to connect with
on the inside.

And I wonder what's it like for you, I mean,
your way, way back to thebeginning to sit and see all of
this is all the fruits of ourlabor. And let's come from that
was like the UK.

I remember so clearly, like the earliest early
days, and it's so cool to beable to just see where
everything got so much better.
In places where we didn't knowthat it was even possible. Like
I've talked about this manytimes about how there was a real
concern. Like you're the onlySusan in the world. And we by we
I mean me even that sometimes wewould kind of joke like this is

(02:23:38):
it can only like right notscalable. Yeah, and we said it
in different words that wereprobably way more harsh and not
so professional. But there was areal concern of like, yeah,
you're awesome at all, butyou're one person and like, this
is can't be like a actualglobally can't be traveling
around the world doing all thisstuff. And we just we just

(02:24:01):
really doubted the possibilityof more people being able to be
awesome in their own way. And,and, and I think one of my, one
of my one of the things that Ilove about how it is here in the
future is how wrong we wereabout that. And you're still the
only Susan that there ever was.

(02:24:21):
And it just all you know alsohappens to be true that Danis
the only data that there everwas ever will be. Suzanne is the
only field is the only in thislast probably this last 1213
months I've have through zoomcalls and actually being in
prison a little bit have gottento know Jen shagged a lot
better. And I just, I could goon and on about how magical I

(02:24:43):
think she is.

And Jennifer and Geneva and

there's so many people that it's it's I feel, I
feel that it's a risk to startnaming them yeah for the chance
to mess somebody out. It is andeven you You know, so that to
me, it's it's really cool to behere in the future and to see
the things that we were worriedabout back then the things that
we were the the facts that webase those fears on were true,

(02:25:13):
like you are the only one thereis. But what isn't true is that
we thought that you were theonly one who could do it. And,
you know, you mentioned GTA, Iwas really involved with GTA.
And I've seen the folks who camethrough that. And I'm so
confident in what has come fromthat what will continue to come

(02:25:37):
from that as folks start toapprentice and go in, and I have
so much confidence, and in thatgroup, and other groups as well,
but it's really like, there'ssome real rock stars in there.
And I'm not typically one Idon't get accused a whole lot of

optimistic about as often as I get accused of
being passive.

And also, I don't, I don't just try to, I don't just
say things just so somebody willfeel cool about it. Like I
genuinely believe that there'ssome real badass is in that
group. And it's amazing. It's,it's just amazing to see how
things are totally scalable. Andthe quality doesn't seem to

(02:26:19):
suffer from it.

It's so nice to see you happy to be so wrong.
Like

that's the thing.
And I'll tell you, you know,five gets those little subtle
jabs every now and then. And thereality is, it's not about being
right. It's about knowing what'sright. And so to me, I'm happy
to it's not that I'm happy to bewrong, but I'm happy to learn.
And being wrong usually precedeslearning. And so that, to me, is
what's cool. Like, I wish Inailed everything perfectly 11

(02:26:45):
years ago, and all the thingsthat would happen and could
happen. Well,

for the record you did you cut out and said yes.
Right, the power of that. Andthat's a big part of why it did
go the way it did.

That's been really nice to see. And, and I I
totally believe I believe in itmore than more than I ever have.
This is good shit going on. AndI just I love it's cool to be a
part of and for the past year,in particular, for me also what
it's been like, because this isyou know, I haven't this has
been my only source of incomefor, you know, a year and a half

(02:27:19):
ish now I you know, and it'sbeen really cool being
reconnected to, to you know, Idon't have a job to get in the
way for now. And it's been cool.
I love I love that my whole liferevolves around. You know, first
is being a dad, like, nooffense, but that's always gonna
be first. We need to get to youjust get one song per episode,

(02:27:41):
we got to that's how long wewent. We got one yesterday when
we recorded the first time, wejust but but parenthood is
always priority. Number one forme. And everything about being a
dad, and you know, the work thatwe do that I get to do with EPB.
It all works together. And soit's it's kind of it's It's
heavenly, I think I would say soit's been really cool. And I

(02:28:03):
think I think your 12 Looksquite promising. Yeah, I think I
love this push the phrases backto basics. And I don't know if
that's the actual thing that wecall it or whatever, that's just
okay. So that I think reallycentering our efforts, you know,
on the, the the folks who are,who are still literally

(02:28:28):
physically locked up and inprison is our middle name. Like
all the things that come withthat, I think is that that's the
play. I think that's, that's, Ithink that's where we were we
know, that's where we started.
And I think that's a good idea.
And public programming is stillcool. Like, I'm still down with
that, but the end user being theperson on the inside who's
incarcerated. I love how muchfocus is there. I love I love

(02:28:50):
that. I think that's I thinkthat's where people are hurt
hurting the most most. And Ialso genuinely believe that
people who are in prison rightnow have the most power to
change. And not just themselves,but when they get out, you know,
like when I got out of prison,like the people around me knew
some shit was different, youknow, and, and I made impact.

(02:29:11):
And I've read that those folkswho are on the inside get out
make an impact. And they sendripples, right leg ones

and those ripples when they come they just you can
they can change lots of things.
And then once you start gettingmultiple ripples, and they start
getting amplified can be aWashington that stuff. We are
the ripple we are

we are the ripple.
This wasn't an anniversaryepisode. That would probably be
the title of the episode. We arethe ripple.

And that was my biggest I might

think this is a I think there's a fair place to
stop. And unless there'sanything that you'd like to
cover and you're giving me ahead check.

The joy. Yeah,

that's been a joy joy, as Tradition holds. I don't
I don't end the episode with aQuestion I just leave space for
the final words, whateverthey'll have on your mind or on
your heart.

Up, we always have that closing tradition. When we
close a call out to me. I justhave that one word and I'm
taking

ripple. Yeah, I think I think that I will. I
will use serve one of Susan'swords that she's been saying the
last month or so which is justonward.

All right, my word is gratitude. Thank you. That is
the end of this season and untilthe next onward, fist bumps in
the road.

(02:30:50):
For more information about EPP,please visit Enneagram prison
project.org We appreciate yourtime and attention today. Stay
tuned for future episodes of thepodcast which you can expect on
the first Tuesday of every monthas we continue to tell the story
of the Enneagram Prison Project.

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