May 28, 2025 • 51 mins
This month, I'm joined by my friend Kelly Rawlins, Executive Director and Leadership Coach.
Brene Brown's Books: https://www.thriftbooks.com/a/bren-brown/198711/
Patrick Lencioni's Books: https://www.thriftbooks.com/a/patrick-lencioni/198304/
Dare to Lead Podcast by Brene Brown: https://open.spotify.com/show/3oEPsPKDhPVoNNL7pH5db6?si=a3f8886b45714406
At the Table with Patrick Lencioni: https://open.spotify.com/show/6NWAZzkzl4ljxX7S2xkHvu?si=cfa7371b7b3c417a
Diary of a CEO: https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX?si=2d34b5b0ff3b48b2
Kelly's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelly-rawlins-0345a5291/
Raw Coaching: https://www.linkedin.com/company/raw-coaching-with-kel/posts/?feedView=all
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Hello, friends, my name is Zach,and welcome to the Enter the
Danger Podcast, where we haveconversations to help us grow in
our skill, to enter intodifficult conversations with
kindness, empathy, andcuriosity, so that we can be
more effective in our jobs andhave deeper and more meaningful
relationships.
My guest this month is KellyRollins.
(00:32):
Kelly is the co-founder anddirector of one 50 Incorporated,
a not-for-profit, working withyoung people across South
Australia for nearly 25 years.
She's also a leadership coachand mentor, passionate about
creating space for leaders topause, reflect, and invest in
their own leadership journey.
Her coaching practice centersaround life, leadership and
mentorship, leveraging her manyyears of leadership experience
(00:55):
and training in businessmanagement.
Christian leadership coaching,the working genius model, and
current postgraduate study insocial organ and organizational
culture and leadership.
I love this conversation withKelly.
Not only is she from Australia,my homeland, uh, but she's
incredibly wise and incrediblygenerous with her wisdom.
Let's jump straight into it.
(01:16):
Hi Kelly.
Thanks so much for joining me onthe podcast today.
No worries.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm actually super excited.
Yeah, awesome.
I love it.
Me too, me too.
Hey, I'm gonna jump straightinto these questions here if
that's good to Yeah, absolutely.
Let's do it.
Awesome.
First one, what's one event thataffects how you enter the danger
(01:38):
with others?
So this is a really hardquestion.
I, um, have so many events thatI can think of that, um, have.
Affected the way I show up inhard conversations now.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so the short answer is lotsof events.
(01:59):
Uh, uh, the, the reason I, um,into hard conversations the way
I do, and I mean, there are twoor three that stick out in my
mind.
Um, but I think it's more, um,the lessons or.
Yeah, just those sort of lessonsthat come from those hard
conversations or the way Iremember people feeling or the
(02:19):
way I felt.
You know, those kind of cruciblemoments where you're just
thinking, ah, okay, I get thatnow, or I see that now.
Um, so yeah, there's some,probably to answer your
question, there's probably beenmore, so some significant
lessons for me.
Yeah.
Um, when it comes to nowentering those hard
conversations.
Entering the danger though.
(02:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think a few of themthat really shape how it works
for me now is that I feel likerelationship and connection and
trust is really key in whenyou're entering a hard
conversation with someone.
I think that's everything.
Um, for me and my leadershipposture and the way I approach
(03:02):
leadership in general is verymuch relationship based.
Um.
And, you know, beginningpotentially with a care
conversation first.
And you know, people just needto feel valued and safe and
heard.
And I think that for me has beenprobably the biggest lessons
over the many years I've beenleading and having to have, have
(03:24):
hard conversations.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, that's probably thebiggest lesson for me along
with, you know, I really learnedto go towards the mess.
Yeah.
Um, as someone who doesn't loveconflict or.
Feeling uncomfortable or makingother people feel uncomfortable
in particular, um, going,learning that it's actually
really unhelpful if you avoidYeah.
(03:46):
Hard conversations.
Yeah.
Uh, really unhelpful.
Um, so yeah, just that's been a,something that I've grown a lot
in, especially in the sort ofthe later years in my leadership
journey is like, yep, it'sactually really important to go
towards the mess and not runaway from it.
Um, it's not always, you know.
It's scary.
It's not where he is.
He is done really well.
(04:08):
But I think the opposite, youknow, the alternative is just
really unhelpful.
So I think creating a culturewhere hard conversations, um,
can happen is really importantto me.
Yeah.
Um, with my team and, and thepeople I lead.
And just to be real as well isthe other things that I reckon
has been the biggest lesson forme over the years.
(04:30):
I think I, you know, there's afew experiences in my early
leadership.
I.
Where it was just, you know,everything's fine.
Yep.
Everything's good.
Like that almost that, I justremember getting quite just sick
of that positivity when it'slike, this isn't actually
reality.
Like it's not all fine.
(04:50):
Yeah.
So let's just be real about itand be okay with, you know,
going there.
And yeah, I just think that thetoxic positivity.
Everything's great.
Um, is just something that I'mprobably just more adverse to
now as well.
Like I'm really conscious of, ofthat.
So, so yeah, that's probably,um, where I reflect on most is
(05:14):
those spaces in those things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great.
What's the struggle, Kelly, thatyou have when it comes to
entering the danger yourself?
Hmm.
Yes.
Um, this was an easy question.
I think it's theuncomfortableness Yeah.
Is still a real struggle for me.
I am, uh, as mentioned, don'tlove conflict.
(05:37):
Don't, you know, don't wanna bethat person that is making a
situation uncomfortable orsomeone feel uncomfortable.
Yeah.
Um, so that is definitely thebiggest hurdle.
Um, and like I've grown a lot inbeing able to hold that space
better.
Um, being able to hold thatspace and.
You know, it puts things in thatspace like trust and connection
(05:58):
and relationship and um, youknow, even words that help that
space support that uncomfortablespace.
Um, but it's still a struggle.
And I think when I think aboutit, I think it's because it's
really, it's comes from thatfear of, um, you know, being
(06:18):
that person that.
Um, someone leave a conversationfeeling like condemned or not
worthy or, um, that, you know,the fear of, am I gonna be
playing a part in them leaving,or Yeah.
You know, tipping them over theedge in some way, shape, or
form.
Um, or my, I just don't, I, youknow, my heart is, I don't want
(06:40):
people to feel less than.
Um, and you know, especiallywith maybe younger, younger
people or younger team membersand having a hard conversation.
I think that's, um, somethingI'm very conscious of.
Yeah.
Really about building them upand hard conversations.
I don't want them, I.
I don't want that to be, I'm nowtearing you down moment.
(07:02):
Um, I'm actually trying to helpyou here.
Yeah.
We're actually trying to, we'reactually trying to, um, this is
a growth moment.
Um, yeah.
And I think that's, that's thekey thing.
I think it's coming to realize,um, in my experience, um, it's
actually doing a disservice topeople if, um, the hard
conversation doesn't happensometimes.
And I think, yeah.
(07:23):
So that rumble of, ugh.
This isn't gonna be necessarilya fun thing, but I know it's
necessary.
But, oh gosh, I just, I pray andhope that this person doesn't
leave feeling like, um, they'rea bad person, essentially.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
So that's, that's probably mybiggest struggle that I just
have to, um, yeah.
(07:44):
Go through every time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It sounds so, um, it also soundsa little bit like you've kind of
already given some of theanswers to this last question
about how do you still have.
The necessary conversationsdespite that when you're talking
about, you know, I love how you,you said rumble.
Um, is there anything else that,that may be specific that you
(08:04):
want to add in there?
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
I mean, the, I, I use those, Ilike when you take the emotion
out of it and you kind of lookat, okay, usually if there's a
hard conversation, there needsto happen.
With someone, there's usuallysomeone somewhere else or a
(08:26):
place or a team that is hurtingor being impacted negatively.
So, you know, just having thatunderstanding that, okay, there
is a hard conversation, needs tohappen.
Um, you know, being kind isclear.
This is actually gonna help.
Grow someone, this is gonnahelp, um, you know, challenge
them in different ways.
Um, you know, having that, thoseunderstandings of the realities
(08:50):
of what's going on reallybecomes the motivating factor
for me, I think.
Um, yeah.
'cause it's in those moments,like I just, because I probably,
I've had a lot of practice withit personally.
And leading for, you know, sortof 25 plus years, um, in, you
know, many teams on manydifferent levels, you know, from
(09:12):
being a team leader to adirector to, you know, on the
ground.
Like I feel like I've reallystepped and treaded in all the
different places.
Yeah.
And.
Really can really, truly saythat it's those moments, it's
those things when we don't getit right, it's those things when
we need to have the hardconversations and be challenged.
(09:32):
That's where the gold is.
Like that's those moments iswhere we become better leaders
and be, get it, become betterpeople.
Yeah.
Uh, or become better teams or anorganization becomes better and
you know, it's not alwayscomfortable and it's not always
fun, but, um.
That's where the growth happens.
So it's just having, that's mysort of motivating factor, I
(09:54):
think is not, is having anunderstanding of those things.
So yeah, it really takes outthe, oh, I just, I'll just avoid
it and I'll, I'll just, it's toohard and it's gonna take a lot
of emotional energy.
So it's kind of become a bitinsignificant compared to the,
the outcome that is there.
The potential of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That moment.
Yeah, absolutely.
(10:15):
Um, Kayla, you said just at thestart of that, that that being
clear is being kind.
How, how is a lack of clarityunkind, and what does that look
like?
Hmm.
Well, it's definitely somethingthat's happened a lot for me.
Like I, I remember some of theevents that I think about, like
(10:39):
some of the hard conversationsand.
You know, um, trying to, youknow, fluff it up or make it
seem not as bad or, you know,beat around the bush or avoid
that direct, this is, this is asituation here.
What are we, what are we gonnado about it together?
(11:00):
Yeah.
Because of that fear of notwanting people to feel condemned
or you know, that they're not agood enough leader or a good
enough worker or staff member orwhatever it might be.
Um.
It's just, it actually, in myexperience, it actually makes
the situation worse and it makesthe, the next conversation that
(11:21):
you're gonna have to haveharder.
Yeah.
And, um, yeah, and, and to behonest, probably the worst part
for me is that person probably,like in my experience, Lee,
feeling fairly confused.
Nothing really happens becauseI've just, you know, coated it
over and it's, oh, it's allgood, but hey, just, you know,
next time maybe think aboutthis.
(11:42):
Or like, you know, there's,yeah, there's not the clarity
needed to go, alright, this iswhat's gonna be the thing that
needs to happen now to make itbetter.
Or this is how we're gonnaaddress this, or whatever
situation might be.
Yeah.
So I think, yeah, plenty ofexperiences where I, you know,
really chickened out of a hardconversation and, you know, it's
(12:03):
become very.
Unclear.
Yeah.
And the result has not, has notbeen great.
Yep.
Is there, is there, um, if it'snot always easy to know, like, I
guess if, if I'm having, if I'mthe one initiating that tough
conference conversation, isthere work that I need to do
first to make sure that I haveclarity?
(12:25):
Can I, or can I go and say, Hey,I'm frustrated with you.
Is that enough or is that stillpretty?
Unclear about what it is thatI'm actually seeing.
I think it's, yeah.
One of the things that I do, ifthe situation comes up and I
need to have a hardconversation, one of the first
(12:47):
things I do is seek tounderstand everything.
Yeah.
Um, because I think, yeah, Inever really enter in a
conversation saying, Hey, thisis what's happened.
How, what are we gonna do aboutit?
Uh, it's, for me, it's more,Hey, can you talk to me about
what's happened here?
Let me, let me understand what'sgoing on.
(13:10):
Yeah.
Um, you know, it's almost like Ineed to have that clarity before
I can then help give a clear,clear and kind conversation or
Yeah.
Directional guidance in asituation.
Does that answer your question?
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
So in essence, even sometimes,even if we think we might.
(13:32):
Know what the issue is to leadwith curiosity, because maybe
what we think the issue is isn'tactually the issue.
Mm, a hundred percent.
That's what I mean.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
How, how, how can that affectmorale?
If we don't, if we don't leadwith curiosity and we just go in
(13:52):
with those assumptions, is that,can that be a, a, a, a morale
killer?
How, how would that affect theteam if we just show up like
that?
Hmm.
Yeah, great question.
I, it's the leadership approachthat I have is very much leading
(14:14):
with curiosity and seeking tounderstand and, um, trying to do
it all in care, care and love aswell.
Yeah.
So I'm, I, I have not had, well,at least I don't think I have
had many.
Situations where I've had tokind of come in and say, Hey,
this, you know, what's going onhere?
(14:34):
This is a good, and sort of dothat top down like, you know,
I'm your, I'm your lineup.
You need to change, or thisneeds to be better.
I'm, it's not really something Ihave a lot of experience in.
Yeah.
Um, but I can, I, I can recall,um, you know, through my, a lot
of my, the work I do isleadership coaching.
You know, there'll be lots ofsituations that my coaching.
(14:55):
Ing clients bring to me with,with that sort of, um,
situation.
And I think that it's, it's areal, uh, it's, it's a real joy
killer I think as well.
Like, you know, if, if you'resomeone who's at work and, and
you're trying to find joy andfulfillment in the work you're
doing, and you feel like youhaven't been understood, or you
(15:19):
feel like someone's come in and,and just come, come in with a,
with a hard conversation withthat.
Valuing or caring for, for yourpart in this, or whatever it
might be?
I think it can be a real ular inthe sense of, um, yeah, I'm just
not feeling valued.
I'm not feeling like I've got avoice here.
And yeah, I, I'd like to thinkthat, um, the way I lead that,
(15:43):
that that's, there's noopportunity for that.
And, you know, to create a coculture where people can feel
like they can have a hardconversation with me back is
really important.
So.
If I've missed something or ifI've done something that someone
else isn't happy with, like, myhope would be that my team would
feel comfortable coming to meand saying, Hey Kel, I'm not
(16:04):
sure what's going on here.
Can you help me understand whythis directive was given or this
was done?
Yeah.
And that, yeah, I will be ableto have that, that same
response.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
How, how, um, you said somethingthat I, that I thought was
really good that it, that it isa joy killer.
If we do that, what would thatlook like?
(16:26):
Let's say in a family setting,right?
Where it's, it's it's, they'renot showing up to work.
What would the equivalent, is itstill like, am I still gonna
kill joy?
What, what am I gonna kill inthat kind of a situation when
maybe it's with my 7-year-oldwho has done the wrong thing and
I don't lead with curiosity, butI just go in Accusatorily?
Mm.
(16:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um.
Yeah, I am not sure.
I mean, I, I do, I have had a7-year-old, they're older now.
I'm just casting my mind back tomaybe a situation where, um,
yeah, I think, I think whenyou're in a family situation,
(17:09):
especially talking with aboutyounger children, I think, you
know, there's not the, thematurity or even the cognitive,
you know, sort of, um.
Maturity to understand thatthat's not safe or Yeah.
You know, that's, don't, don'tclimb on the cubby house roof.
That won't end well.
Yeah.
Um, you know, it might be a joykiller to them.
(17:33):
Yeah.
But, you know, they don't havethe understanding like that.
Well, that's because that'sunsafe and they're not meant to
yet at seven years old baby.
I know, right?
Uh, but yeah, so I think, Ithink, you know, I, I guess what
that highlights to me is that.
You know, there, there does needto be some sort of maturity and
understanding of what's going onfor someone to be able to come
(17:54):
into that conversation.
And, um, yeah, the, yeah, beinga joy killer I think is, um,
isn't always, I don't think it'sever an intentional thing and I
wonder if it is something thatcomes in and you have to be
like, this is not okay.
Potentially.
There's a really, really goodreason.
Yeah.
(18:15):
They're not safe or, you know,crisis situation.
Um, you know, depending on, onwhat the situation might be.
Could be unsafe.
It could be, um, yeah, could belike, uh, something just happens
to happen really quick rightnow.
Yeah.
This is what we need to do, solet's, let's, this is what it's
gonna get done.
But I mean, you'd hope thatthere would be a trust in that
(18:35):
leader to be able to say, okay,well I trust that you've got,
you've got our best interest atheart still, and.
You know, you, you're doing thisfor a very good reason, so I am
gonna trust that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I, I would imagine that therestill has to be clarity in those
moments.
It just might come after thefact.
(18:56):
Am I on the right track there?
Yeah, yeah.
I would, I would hope so too.
Yep.
Absolutely.
I think the, I can't, um, can'treally imagine.
I can't imagine having to, I I'mjust casting my mind back.
For example, the COVID-19pandemic, you know, um, as, uh,
(19:18):
an organization, manyorganizations during that time,
there was like quick changes andquick things and, you know,
people in place and people inplaces where things just had to
be covered and, you know, sortthrough, like there was, it was
chaos.
And so, yeah, I can, I recallbeing on.
Online with my team, and we arejust like, this is what we're
(19:40):
gonna do.
This is, this is how we're gonnado it, da da da dah.
And it's then becomes somethingwhere if something has happened,
the moment we'll go and do it.
But then there's always a followup meeting or a follow up, you
know?
Yeah.
Like, this is, this is, this iswhat we are doing, guys, where
it's the constant communication,um, and this is why we are doing
it.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
(20:00):
I, I would hope to think that,that that's the case.
Yep.
If it had to come to that.
Yep.
Yeah.
I, um, I wanna go back tosomething you said earlier,
Kelly, when, when you weretalking about holding space.
Um, I'm, I'm curious when you,when you were talking about
holding space for conversations,how do we start that process and
(20:24):
how do we fill that space?
As you were saying, if I'mremembering right with trust and
vulnerability, what, what's thefirst, you know, maybe one, two,
or three steps that we have to,to take?
Can you say more about that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, uh, I, I think it dependsmaybe in what context it's in,
(20:46):
but in my context, the holdingspace for my team definitely
starts with the culture that wehave.
So we have a very, um, we valuehighly, um, time to listen to
each other.
Um.
So my first step always withsomeone is to take them out for
(21:08):
coffee and just hear about them.
Yeah.
Um, not, not the things they dobut them, um, you know, not the
things they do at work, but youknow who they are and, you know,
what brings them joy and theircontext.
Um, potentially, you know, thethings that are going on for
them that might impact, um, theway they show up and the way
they do things.
So that is certainly my stepone.
(21:31):
Yep.
And from there, it's.
It is that maintaining thatrelationship.
Um, and I think that justinvolves more coffee, honestly.
Yes.
And just more time.
But you know, we, we do, we dohave a culture where it, we
value those times.
You know, for some organizationsmight look in and go, oh, there
(21:54):
is so many, so many unproductivehours going on here from walks
to the coffee shop.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and sitting andchatting, um.
You know, fluffing around a bit,but it's, it's those moments
that bring connection and it'sthose moments that bring
understanding and even theincidental conversations, um, in
those moments are super helpfulwhen it comes to knowing how to
(22:15):
work with your team and what theneeds are and what the resources
gaps are.
Um, so those are, that, thatculture is, is really important.
Um, and I think as far as, um.
An ongoing thing and it's notnecessarily a tick box thing
(22:36):
either.
I think it is having thatintentionality around it and
understanding that it takestime.
Like it's not just a, ah, I'mjust gonna schedule a 20 minute
chat with you every fortnight ormonth and tick a box.
It's actually, and it has to bea little bit organic as well, so
you know when there's situationsthat are coming up.
(22:58):
Alright, let's, let's grab acoffee, let's talk about it.
Let's troubleshoot it.
Let, let me coach you throughhow you might come out of this,
um, or work through this.
So there's just, yeah.
That real intentionality andbeing okay with it, taking up
time.
Yeah.
Um, would be, I.
I just have, and I, and I do, Icarve that out in my week.
I have a whole day in my weekwhere I go into the office and I
(23:22):
don't take my computer in.
I just, I'm with people.
Yeah.
I just, it's conversations.
More and more conversations,more and more conversations.
Um.
And yeah, sometimes I sit theretwiddling my thumbs, and then
I'll just go and find someone tohave a conversation with.
Yeah.
And that's, they're the mostrichest, you know, richest times
and where innovation happens andcreativity happens and Yeah.
(23:45):
Um, yeah, people are feeling,you know, you know, we nighting
passion and, um, ideas, so Ifind that really important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Does, does listening impact.
Success of entering the danger?
(24:07):
Or is it, or is that just acultural issue?
Like how, how, how would, howimportant is listening kind of
overall, I guess, and and thenhow important is it just in, in
your, like would it be differentin a different organization?
Well, first and foremost, Ithink listening.
(24:29):
I think it's, there's adifference between listening and
act and hearing.
Yeah.
Like I'm listening to you, butI, but I hear you.
Is I think is, is different.
Um, so, uh, to answer yourquestion, I think hearing is
like yeah.
To be able to.
Like you said, sort of lead withthat curiosity and, and listen
(24:51):
and hear, um, you know, listenfor the, what they're saying
verbally, but also hearing whatthey're not saying.
Yeah.
As well.
I think that's really important.
And you know, I think for someorganization, and that's my
context, that's like we're a, anon-for-profit that works with
young people.
Um, and I have many youngleaders, um, in my teams and so.
(25:14):
For that generation inparticular, like they need to be
heard and they need to of.
Sort of growing to do and as weall do, but I think, you know,
they're more in their sort offormative years and, and early
leadership journey.
So it becomes more important, itmay be in my context, as opposed
to other organizations thatmight, um, have a different, um,
(25:35):
cause or vision, um, and, andway they, they need to work.
But I still think that listeningand hearing is important in any,
any team, any place, anyleadership.
Yeah.
Situation.
And so your goal, your goal in,in listening, if I'm hearing you
right, is to, to understandtheir perspective.
Is that right or or is itsomething else?
(25:58):
Oh, a hundred percent.
It's, it's to understand, it'sto seek to understand as much as
we possibly can.
Um, it's to hear perspective,it's to hear, it's to hear lens
and the more you listen and askquestions, and the more you hear
and ask more.
Sort of nuanced questions.
The, the more is revealed.
(26:18):
Yeah.
And things that, you know, youmight be talking about, um, a,
uh, an administration problem.
And then in, by the end of a 15,20 minute chat, you're actually
talking about, um, a, you know,a situation where this person or
this worker or team member isfeeling really overwhelmed and
stressed because other thingsthat are going on around that,
(26:40):
you are unaware.
I think it's, yeah, it's huge.
It's huge.
It's that it's, it's, it's, youlearn so much by listening,
talking, and listening withpeople.
And if you have thatrelationship and that connection
and that trust and that safetywith someone, they're going to
be more willing to, to say thethings that they might be scared
(27:04):
or fearful saying to a boss whomaybe didn't value Yeah.
That curiosity and that list.
Yeah.
And, and it sounds, if I'mhearing you too, it sounds like.
The more we ask these questionsand the more we're seeking to
understand them, the greaterempathy we're going to be able
to have.
Am I, am I on the right trackthere?
(27:25):
Absolutely.
Empathy is very important.
Uh, especially, you know, thesedays where there, there are so
many pressures and um, so manystresses for people and
families.
I think that the empathy, havingthat humanness, I think is what.
Um, is key there.
It's like yeah.
(27:45):
You know, being real with eachother and, and having empathy
for the situations that aregoing on for them and, um,
having empathy for yourself inthose situations as well.
Yeah, I think it, you know, you,you reflect and roll, you
mirror, mirror that and rolemodel that so much.
Yeah.
Without realizing sometimes Ithink, um, so that, yeah, I
really value that.
(28:05):
Yep.
In a, in a working relationship,how, how do you.
How, how do you use empathy tohelp make change that has to
happen?
Let's suppose I'm gonna make upan example here.
Let, let's suppose that one ofyour team comes in, um, and they
(28:27):
say, you know, Kelly, and theygive some really good reasons,
and you ask questions and youunderstand.
They say, I really just onlywanna work five hours a day
instead of eight.
That's just kind of where I'mfrom.
Yeah.
How, how do you use empathy thento say, I hear you, that's not
all right, we have to work eightAs as an example.
How, how do you make that whenit's, when they might, they
(28:48):
might be in some ways, you know,almost diametrically opposed to,
to what you need?
Mm, yeah.
Great question.
Um, I think you can have empathyand accountability or
responsibility at the same time.
I don't think it's one or theother.
Yeah, I think there is.
(29:09):
Um, so to answer your, thequestion around the situation
you just gave an example of itwould be, let me hear about
what's going on for you.
'cause potentially there'sthings that can shift and change
to help them feel like they canachieve what they need to
achieve.
So help me understand what'sgoing on for you.
Is there things do to supportyou?
(29:31):
Um, understand that that's whatyou are hoping would happen.
Um, this is the reality for us.
So together, how can we makethis work for both parties?
That's a very, you know, that'snot how it would be said, but it
essentially that, that's, that'sthe goal, isn't it?
It's like, I wanna care for you.
Yeah.
(29:51):
But we also have aresponsibility and
accountability to do it thisway, because this is what, what
it is.
Yeah.
So how can, how can we get, howcan we get there?
How can we, how can we make,make both win?
How can we, yeah.
What does it look like to honorboth things here?
Um, you know, but.
I also believe just throughthose care conversations and
(30:14):
having those curiosity questionsand asking, asking the why
behind that, why five hours,what, you know, what's, what's
going on for you there?
Yeah.
Um, you know, and, and beingvulnerable enough as a leader to
go, what, what are we notseeing?
Like, what's going on for you?
Eight hours is making it reallyhard for you.
Like we have to, as leaders, um,be able to use it as a, you
(30:38):
know, a review moment as well.
Okay.
Could we be doing thingsdifferent and better?
Let's talk about that.
Help me, help me to understandwhat it should look like for
you.
Um, because in my contextanyway, they, they all talk and,
you know, they like team memberstalk and, and have, have a
culture, a subculture of theirown.
Yeah.
(31:01):
And behavior norms and stuffwhere they, they, they kind of,
um, yeah, they kind of theculture makers too.
So you wanna, you wanna workwith them, you wanna work with,
with each other to help providean environment, a space where
it, it's a win for people, youknow?
Yeah.
It doesn't have to be awin-lose.
It can, it can be a win-win.
(31:22):
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Life is not a zero sum game.
That's right.
Yeah, that's right.
I'm also hearing you, I thinkthis is, I think this is really
powerful what you've, whatyou've just said.
I think it's really good becausethat could be applied if I'm
hearing you as well, to prettymuch any situation.
You know, someone comes insaying, we'll use this same
(31:45):
example, I need to work fivehours.
Maybe it's because they're notgetting paid enough and they're
having to work a second job.
Or maybe it's'cause.
Right.
Their grandma's sick and theyhave to take care of their
grandma.
Or maybe it's'cause they've goneback to school and they, they're
overwhelmed with school.
And that's what we're trying touncover with the curiosity,
right?
Correct.
Absolutely.
And potentially it's not, okay,let's negotiate your hours
(32:08):
conversation.
It's an outcome that neitherpeople have thought of yet.
That's actually gonna work justthrough having those convers,
like seeking to understandwhat's the, what's really going
on here.
Yeah, it seems like that, thateven to get to that place
though, we, we have to have thisassumption of positive intent.
(32:31):
How important is that when itcomes to being able to lead with
curiosity?
Mm, that is a really great,great question because I am
notorious, um, and sometimes tomy detriment.
Giving people the benefit of thedoubt, seeing, you know,
(32:51):
thinking the best intent ineveryone.
Um, and I don't apologize forthat because I think that's a
really great, great way to lead.
Yeah.
But it has, um, it trips me upis the wrong word, probably, but
I've learn to, um, you ask morequestions, um, you know, learn
to, uh.
(33:12):
What, learn what it looks liketo find out if you can trust
someone by trusting someone andsee what happens.
Um, so, uh, there are def, thereis definitely a, um, yeah, and,
and I think that, you know, you,that discernment has to kick in
a lot.
You have to trust, you know, um,just your discernment in
(33:34):
situations as well.
And, um, I think at the end ofthe day.
Hope I, I would hope to thinkthat the relationship I have
with my team and, and I do knowsome team members better than
others'cause of proximity and,and how I work with them.
So I'm not gonna pretend I knowthe ins and outs of every single
person I work with, but I wouldlike to think that I have enough
(33:57):
of a relationship because that'sour, that's what we value and
that's the culture we have.
That that would be, um, thatthere would just be some real
honesty and transparency withthat.
And, and I have experienced thatwith team members.
I'm like, you know, I wanna workfive hours.
Okay, why?
What's going on for you?
I just don't wanna be here.
More than that.
Like to have permission to, toactually just say how they're,
(34:21):
what's really going on for themand how, and be very real in
that, I think helps with.
That knowing their, what theirintent is, what their
motivations is.
And at the end of the day, I, Idon't think you can fully ever
know for sure.
Yeah.
And I think you just have to doyour best at discerning and, you
know, some, you know, takingsteps of facing in some areas
(34:43):
or, you know, waiting andpausing and just seeing what
comes next in some other areas.
And I think you just step and beokay to have to adjust and
pivot, um, when you need, yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, I'm gonna, I've got, I'vegot one more kind of, kind of
line of questioning I wannatake.
And this is going way back tothe beginning when you were
(35:05):
talking about being real, um,and how we need to be seen as
who we are.
And you were, you were, you werethen talking about, you know, we
shouldn't, um, have toxicpositivity.
How does this idea of toxicpositivity, if at all, impact
(35:26):
our ability to have difficultconversations with people?
Hmm.
How does have toxic positivityaffect how we have difficult
conversations?
Um, well, I think, um.
(35:49):
My experience, there was a, wasa time earlier in my leadership
where we just tried to makeeverything positive so people
would feel, um, everything wasdoable and everything was
achievable and everything wasgreat.
Yeah.
Um, and those little challengesand those things that didn't go
(36:09):
so well and actually reallyimpacted people.
That's still okay becauseeverything else is fantastic.
Like it, that that was stillgood.
Things came out of that.
Like it was, yeah, I think itwas just, um, it, it brought
what I, what I think happened isit brought this, um,
underpinning, I dunno ifculture's the right word, but
(36:33):
this underpinning kind of, um,vibe that, uh.
We have to be so happy and beable to achieve everything and
do everything in so much joy andeverything that is hard and
everything that is reallyactually impacted the way I'm
(36:54):
feeling about my work and whatI'm doing needs to be
suppressed.
Um.
'cause I, you know, wingingisn't helpful right now, or
Yeah.
You know, that, so that was kindof, and it wasn't intent,
obviously.
It wasn't intentional, everyone.
Right.
You know, trying to be positiveand see the bright side because,
you know, the work we do ishard.
(37:14):
Like with young people, you comeacross some really hard things.
So it's, you know, but it was a,it was avoiding and, um, just
not, yeah, just not being realwith each other.
Yeah.
Was just, once we did that, itwas so, it was.
We, you know, it's thatcollaborative like, yeah, this
is really hard.
This actually just, this reallysucks right now, but this is
(37:36):
how, this is how we can moveforward together from here.
Yeah.
So it really brought thatcollaboration together and
helped us to do things betterand helped us, our programs to
be better and helped us to nothave so much stress, overwhelm,
and burnout in our teams becausewe're actually addressing things
and making changes and Yeah, andrecognizing the challenges.
(37:59):
To answer your question, how theimpacts having hard
conversations is in thosemoments where, okay, well this
happened and this wasn't great.
You know, we were able to have,um, that yeah, that culture was
born.
We were able to have those hardconversations about some of
those things with each otherand, um.
It, it was about doing ittogether.
(38:19):
It was a togetherness thing, nota me against you thing.
Um, so I think, yeah, I feellike the toxic positivity people
kind of isolate themselves andlike, it's almost like I'm gonna
just so solo my work becausethen I can just.
Manage and take and take care ofit.
But when you actually bringeverything to the surface and
(38:39):
you collaborate and you supporteach other, and you do team and
you do it together, I think thatcreates that culture where,
yeah, we can actually rumblewith this.
We can actually go back andforth with harder conversations.
Um, and, and, but we are doingit together, so it's okay.
Yeah.
Um, you know, it's a nice, it'san US problem, not just a you
you problem.
Yeah.
Or a that problem.
(39:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's great.
So, so if I'm hearing you rightthere, it's, it, um, this idea
of toxic positivity when, whenwe have to be happy all the
time, that almost inhibits the,the reason it inhibits our
ability is because we, nothingcan be wrong and, and something,
and if we're having a difficultconversation, something has to
(39:21):
be wrong.
Am I, am I hearing you right inthat was one those difficulties.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the, the difficultconversations, it, it's not so
much saying, well, that'sbecause this stuff is wrong.
(39:42):
It's more like, this stuff ishard.
Yeah.
Like that's kind of the, youknow, this is, this is hard.
Yeah.
So those difficult conversationsisn't about, well, let's just
bring to the service everythingthat's wrong.
Right.
It's like, let's actually justbring to the service everything
that's, that's hard and we needeach other on.
Yep.
I think that's, that's probablymore, more what it was for us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or for me.
(40:02):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is, which can be sofreeing, right?
When you can say, man, this wasso tough, instead of
everything's awesome.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
Absolutely.
Hey, Kelly, I've been, I've beenloving this conversation.
Awesome.
It's, it's awesome.
I know we are running low ontime.
I've got a lightning round ofquestions I'd love to jump into
if you're ready.
(40:24):
Sure.
Let's do it.
Great.
I'll give it my best shot.
Great.
It's, if, if you don't, I'll,I'll write a big F and we'll
give you a fail for that.
Okay.
Yeah, that's all.
Okay, that's fine.
That's all, uh, your favoriteleadership quote.
Oh, oh gosh, there are so many.
(40:45):
Um, okay.
It isn't a quote as much, but,um.
Something that a leader said tome once when I was a young
leader, that that reallyimpacted me as a leader and the
way I lead.
And they said to me, Kel, youhave to be okay with somebody
(41:06):
else's a hundred percent beingyour 70%.
Yeah.
And that for me was, um,understanding that people.
Leaders are all on a journeyand, and a growth journey.
And we all, um, ebb and flow atdifferent rates as far as, you
(41:28):
know, what we are learning andwhat we're going through and how
to rise up.
You know, your team inleadership, um, is all about
letting the mistakes happen,being there to support them, and
being okay with that becausepretty soon that 70, that what
you see is 70%.
They will very soon surpass youra hundred percent and do it so
(41:53):
much better in their ownbeautiful way.
Yeah.
Than you could ever have doneit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
What's one underrated skill inleadership?
Listening.
Yep.
Favorite listening.
Go ahead.
Sorry.
Listening with coffee, I, I knowit's not a skill, but I think
(42:17):
it's something that gets lost inthe pace of life.
Yeah.
And I think it's very underratedhow valuable those times are.
Yeah.
Yep.
Your favorite author?
Hmm.
I, I'm gonna have to say BreneBrown because I go to her books
constantly.
Yeah.
Um.
My next favorite author wouldprobably be Pat Cheney.
(42:40):
Yep.
The most frustrating excusesomeone can make for not
entering the Danger.
I don't have time.
Mm.
Your favorite question to askother people.
How are you?
Yeah.
How, how do you I'm gonna, thisis, this is not scripted.
(43:02):
How do you make sure that that'smore than just a, how's it
going?
Sure.
Yep.
So how are you?
So how are you, Zach?
Yeah, yeah, I'm great.
I, I'm, I'm doing great.
Great.
Tell me why You're great.
Yeah.
And so that's, that's what youdo.
(43:23):
Just say, tell me why.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just keep, I keep askingquestions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
I'm gonna, can I steal that fromyou?
Tell me why.
Absolutely.
That's brilliant.
Tell me why.
Yeah.
Uh, back on track.
All right.
You're back on track now.
Uh, what's something you do tomake sure you're always
learning?
(43:44):
Hmm.
Um, well, at the moment I'mstudying, um, and if I'm not
studying, I'm al I'm alwayslooking for sort of like mini
courses or mini trainings that Ican be a part of.
Yep.
Um.
Yeah, I, I do listen to a lotof, um, podcasts as well and
read a lot of leadership books.
(44:05):
So yeah, I, I actually get antsyand if, uh, if I'm not receiving
because leadership to give outso much.
So if I'm not receiving yeah.
Um, I get would be antsy.
Yep.
Uh, do you have a favoritepodcast?
You this one?
Absolutely.
You can't pick yourself.
You're my favorite podcast thateveryone ever Absolutely.
(44:29):
No, you can't pick, you can'tpick yourself.
Okay.
Besides, besides entering theDanger Zone, my favorite podcast
would be, um, Brene.
Bre Renee's leadership podcastis something that I go back and
listen to a lot, um, and at thetable group and diary the CE.
(44:52):
I will put links to all those inthe show notes for anyone, uh,
wanting them.
Uh, what's a book that you keeprereading?
Um, dare to Lead by Brene Brown.
Yep.
What's a quality you see inothers that makes you excited to
get to know them?
(45:18):
That's a really good question.
Quality, uh, uh, when you getthe vibe, they're genuine.
Mm, genuine, yeah.
People who, who, who show upgenuinely.
(45:39):
Yeah.
Yep.
Your favorite way to build trustwith other people?
Coffee.
Yeah.
No, that's, that's, that's not agreat answer.
Um, my favorite way, way tobuild trust with people would
be, um, sharing, like doing lifewith them.
Sharing with them, yeah.
(46:00):
Yeah.
That's good.
Yeah.
I'm glad you changed your answer'cause I don't drink coffee.
So basically we'd never havetrust if that was the, oh look,
I've got many variations that Ican, I can buy you a tea, a hot
chocolate.
Yeah.
Great.
Whatever works.
Uh, how does gratitude impactyour life?
Say that one again.
(46:21):
How does gratitude impact yourlife?
Yes.
Um.
Gratefulness, um, is somethingthat I press into often when,
especially when times are tough,um, when there's a lot of tough
(46:41):
situations that are happening.
It's, um, it, it's when I pressinto gratitude and it's, and
it's funny because I forget todo it a lot.
Yeah.
But when I am with my kids andthey're going through tough
situations.
I will always help them to findgratitude, like to press into
gratitude.
And that reminds me, it's justas wholesome for me as it's, it
(47:05):
is for them.
Yep, yep, yep.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Kids are a great teacher.
They sure are.
Are they?
Mm-hmm.
How do you stay sharp at work?
Uh, getting good sleep and, um,I make sure I do, um, I exercise
two or three times a week.
Yep.
(47:25):
What do you do to rest?
Um, uh, it's gonna sound weird,but I go for a run.
Yeah.
Um, it doesn't sound weird whenI run.
Yeah.
It, when I run, that's when mymind becomes clear and I can
just be with my thoughts and Ican think about.
(47:48):
Things that I just don't havetime to think of a lot.
Yeah.
Um, you know, whether, whetherthat be, you know, about time I
had with my mom last week or,you know, whatever it is, I
just, I just use that time to,it's real me time and connection
with God time for me.
Yeah.
And that's, that's risk for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it doesn't sound weird atall.
(48:08):
Uh, one of my favorite thingsabout this question is how many,
like, we have people who hikeand run and who go to the gym
and, you know, you name itswimming.
Very few times it's actuallykind of doing nothing.
It's rest is not usually doingnothing Anyway, that's neither
here nor there.
Um, last question, Kelly.
Uh, is white chocolate reallychocolate?
(48:30):
Yes.
Have you ever had top deck?
Do you have that over in theStates?
No.
No.
Do you remember Top Deck?
I think I do remember it.
That's the one where it'schocolate on the bottom and
white on the top.
Is that.
Yeah.
Yes.
And it's the best chocolateever.
So a hundred percent.
Yeah, its chocolate.
Great, great.
Awesome.
Glad to hear it, Kelly.
I love, I've loved thisconversation so much.
(48:52):
Before we go, two more quickthings.
Is there anything you're workingon that you, that you would love
to share?
And if people want to get a holdof you, how can they do that?
Absolutely.
Um, so I don't have a greatsocial media presence, but I am
on LinkedIn.
Um, so I have my coaching withKel Page, um, where I share some
leadership, um, insights and um,yeah, that's how people can
(49:16):
connect with me.
Um, and the thing that I'mworking on at the moment is I.
I'm in a bit of a transitionstage at the moment where I'm
doing some studying and figuringout what, what's gonna happen
with that.
Um, so can I put a TBC on it andlet you know?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
If there's anything, if anythinggreat comes outta that, that'll,
(49:36):
that'll be my thing I'm workingon.
Yep, totally.
I will, I'll also put a link toKelly's, uh, LinkedIn page in
the show notes.
Go give her a follow.
She's got, she's got good stuffin there.
Uh, thank you again, Kelly, somuch.
I love this conversation.
I look forward to the next timewe catch up.
Yeah.
Thanks, Zach.
It's been so fun, and thank youfor having me and for the time
(49:58):
that you put into everything youdo.
It's making the world a betterplace, so thank you.
Oh, well thank you.
I appreciate it.
Bye.
All right.
Catch.
What an awesome conversation.
Kelly, thank you so much againfor joining me on the podcast
this month.
I really appreciate your time.
My guest next month is gonna bePat Richie.
(50:18):
Pat is a Table Group consultant.
Before joining the Table group,as one of their principal
consultants, he worked with theSan Francisco 49 ERs and was a
member of five Super Bowl teamswith the 49 ERs.
He also worked with the SanFrancisco Giants for 13 years as
well.
That conversation's reallygreat, and I hope you'll come
back and join me next month forthat episode.
(50:41):
Thank you all so much forjoining me this month on the
Enter The Danger Podcast.
I really appreciate you beinghere with me, and I'm grateful
for your time.
If you enjoyed the podcast, I'dalso appreciate it if you left a
review or rate it wherever youconsume your podcasts.
But more than that, I'd reallyappreciate it if you shared the
podcast with someone else.
(51:01):
If you have any advice to me,I'd love to hear from you.
You can email me at Zach, that'sZA c@zwilcoxconsulting.com.
That's also my website, z wilcoxconsulting.com, or you could
call me at(559) 387-6436.
I also take texts if you don'tlike to call or if you just
(51:22):
wanna talk about entering thedanger as well and what that
means, how to implement that ina better way in your own life.
Please let me know.
I'd love to connect and chat.
I love meeting new people.
I love talking about this topicof entering the danger.
Thank you friends for being hereagain.
Until next time, let's rememberto choose kindness.
Empathy and curiosity.
Hello, friends, my name is Zach,and welcome to the Enter the
Danger Podcast, where we haveconversations to help us grow in
our skill, to enter intodifficult conversations with
kindness, empathy, andcuriosity, so that we can be
more effective in our jobs andhave deeper and more meaningful
relationships.
My guest this month is KellyRollins.
(00:32):
Kelly is the co-founder anddirector of one 50 Incorporated,
a not-for-profit, working withyoung people across South
Australia for nearly 25 years.
She's also a leadership coachand mentor, passionate about
creating space for leaders topause, reflect, and invest in
their own leadership journey.
Her coaching practice centersaround life, leadership and
mentorship, leveraging her manyyears of leadership experience
(00:55):
and training in businessmanagement.
Christian leadership coaching,the working genius model, and
current postgraduate study insocial organ and organizational
culture and leadership.
I love this conversation withKelly.
Not only is she from Australia,my homeland, uh, but she's
incredibly wise and incrediblygenerous with her wisdom.
Let's jump straight into it.
(01:16):
Hi Kelly.
Thanks so much for joining me onthe podcast today.
No worries.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm actually super excited.
Yeah, awesome.
I love it.
Me too, me too.
Hey, I'm gonna jump straightinto these questions here if
that's good to Yeah, absolutely.
Let's do it.
Awesome.
First one, what's one event thataffects how you enter the danger
(01:38):
with others?
So this is a really hardquestion.
I, um, have so many events thatI can think of that, um, have.
Affected the way I show up inhard conversations now.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so the short answer is lotsof events.
(01:59):
Uh, uh, the, the reason I, um,into hard conversations the way
I do, and I mean, there are twoor three that stick out in my
mind.
Um, but I think it's more, um,the lessons or.
Yeah, just those sort of lessonsthat come from those hard
conversations or the way Iremember people feeling or the
(02:19):
way I felt.
You know, those kind of cruciblemoments where you're just
thinking, ah, okay, I get thatnow, or I see that now.
Um, so yeah, there's some,probably to answer your
question, there's probably beenmore, so some significant
lessons for me.
Yeah.
Um, when it comes to nowentering those hard
conversations.
Entering the danger though.
(02:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think a few of themthat really shape how it works
for me now is that I feel likerelationship and connection and
trust is really key in whenyou're entering a hard
conversation with someone.
I think that's everything.
Um, for me and my leadershipposture and the way I approach
(03:02):
leadership in general is verymuch relationship based.
Um.
And, you know, beginningpotentially with a care
conversation first.
And you know, people just needto feel valued and safe and
heard.
And I think that for me has beenprobably the biggest lessons
over the many years I've beenleading and having to have, have
(03:24):
hard conversations.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, that's probably thebiggest lesson for me along
with, you know, I really learnedto go towards the mess.
Yeah.
Um, as someone who doesn't loveconflict or.
Feeling uncomfortable or makingother people feel uncomfortable
in particular, um, going,learning that it's actually
really unhelpful if you avoidYeah.
(03:46):
Hard conversations.
Yeah.
Uh, really unhelpful.
Um, so yeah, just that's been a,something that I've grown a lot
in, especially in the sort ofthe later years in my leadership
journey is like, yep, it'sactually really important to go
towards the mess and not runaway from it.
Um, it's not always, you know.
It's scary.
It's not where he is.
He is done really well.
(04:08):
But I think the opposite, youknow, the alternative is just
really unhelpful.
So I think creating a culturewhere hard conversations, um,
can happen is really importantto me.
Yeah.
Um, with my team and, and thepeople I lead.
And just to be real as well isthe other things that I reckon
has been the biggest lesson forme over the years.
(04:30):
I think I, you know, there's afew experiences in my early
leadership.
I.
Where it was just, you know,everything's fine.
Yep.
Everything's good.
Like that almost that, I justremember getting quite just sick
of that positivity when it'slike, this isn't actually
reality.
Like it's not all fine.
(04:50):
Yeah.
So let's just be real about itand be okay with, you know,
going there.
And yeah, I just think that thetoxic positivity.
Everything's great.
Um, is just something that I'mprobably just more adverse to
now as well.
Like I'm really conscious of, ofthat.
So, so yeah, that's probably,um, where I reflect on most is
(05:14):
those spaces in those things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great.
What's the struggle, Kelly, thatyou have when it comes to
entering the danger yourself?
Hmm.
Yes.
Um, this was an easy question.
I think it's theuncomfortableness Yeah.
Is still a real struggle for me.
I am, uh, as mentioned, don'tlove conflict.
(05:37):
Don't, you know, don't wanna bethat person that is making a
situation uncomfortable orsomeone feel uncomfortable.
Yeah.
Um, so that is definitely thebiggest hurdle.
Um, and like I've grown a lot inbeing able to hold that space
better.
Um, being able to hold thatspace and.
You know, it puts things in thatspace like trust and connection
(05:58):
and relationship and um, youknow, even words that help that
space support that uncomfortablespace.
Um, but it's still a struggle.
And I think when I think aboutit, I think it's because it's
really, it's comes from thatfear of, um, you know, being
(06:18):
that person that.
Um, someone leave a conversationfeeling like condemned or not
worthy or, um, that, you know,the fear of, am I gonna be
playing a part in them leaving,or Yeah.
You know, tipping them over theedge in some way, shape, or
form.
Um, or my, I just don't, I, youknow, my heart is, I don't want
(06:40):
people to feel less than.
Um, and you know, especiallywith maybe younger, younger
people or younger team membersand having a hard conversation.
I think that's, um, somethingI'm very conscious of.
Yeah.
Really about building them upand hard conversations.
I don't want them, I.
I don't want that to be, I'm nowtearing you down moment.
(07:02):
Um, I'm actually trying to helpyou here.
Yeah.
We're actually trying to, we'reactually trying to, um, this is
a growth moment.
Um, yeah.
And I think that's, that's thekey thing.
I think it's coming to realize,um, in my experience, um, it's
actually doing a disservice topeople if, um, the hard
conversation doesn't happensometimes.
And I think, yeah.
(07:23):
So that rumble of, ugh.
This isn't gonna be necessarilya fun thing, but I know it's
necessary.
But, oh gosh, I just, I pray andhope that this person doesn't
leave feeling like, um, they'rea bad person, essentially.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
So that's, that's probably mybiggest struggle that I just
have to, um, yeah.
(07:44):
Go through every time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It sounds so, um, it also soundsa little bit like you've kind of
already given some of theanswers to this last question
about how do you still have.
The necessary conversationsdespite that when you're talking
about, you know, I love how you,you said rumble.
Um, is there anything else that,that may be specific that you
(08:04):
want to add in there?
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
I mean, the, I, I use those, Ilike when you take the emotion
out of it and you kind of lookat, okay, usually if there's a
hard conversation, there needsto happen.
With someone, there's usuallysomeone somewhere else or a
(08:26):
place or a team that is hurtingor being impacted negatively.
So, you know, just having thatunderstanding that, okay, there
is a hard conversation, needs tohappen.
Um, you know, being kind isclear.
This is actually gonna help.
Grow someone, this is gonnahelp, um, you know, challenge
them in different ways.
Um, you know, having that, thoseunderstandings of the realities
(08:50):
of what's going on reallybecomes the motivating factor
for me, I think.
Um, yeah.
'cause it's in those moments,like I just, because I probably,
I've had a lot of practice withit personally.
And leading for, you know, sortof 25 plus years, um, in, you
know, many teams on manydifferent levels, you know, from
(09:12):
being a team leader to adirector to, you know, on the
ground.
Like I feel like I've reallystepped and treaded in all the
different places.
Yeah.
And.
Really can really, truly saythat it's those moments, it's
those things when we don't getit right, it's those things when
we need to have the hardconversations and be challenged.
(09:32):
That's where the gold is.
Like that's those moments iswhere we become better leaders
and be, get it, become betterpeople.
Yeah.
Uh, or become better teams or anorganization becomes better and
you know, it's not alwayscomfortable and it's not always
fun, but, um.
That's where the growth happens.
So it's just having, that's mysort of motivating factor, I
(09:54):
think is not, is having anunderstanding of those things.
So yeah, it really takes outthe, oh, I just, I'll just avoid
it and I'll, I'll just, it's toohard and it's gonna take a lot
of emotional energy.
So it's kind of become a bitinsignificant compared to the,
the outcome that is there.
The potential of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That moment.
Yeah, absolutely.
(10:15):
Um, Kayla, you said just at thestart of that, that that being
clear is being kind.
How, how is a lack of clarityunkind, and what does that look
like?
Hmm.
Well, it's definitely somethingthat's happened a lot for me.
Like I, I remember some of theevents that I think about, like
(10:39):
some of the hard conversationsand.
You know, um, trying to, youknow, fluff it up or make it
seem not as bad or, you know,beat around the bush or avoid
that direct, this is, this is asituation here.
What are we, what are we gonnado about it together?
(11:00):
Yeah.
Because of that fear of notwanting people to feel condemned
or you know, that they're not agood enough leader or a good
enough worker or staff member orwhatever it might be.
Um.
It's just, it actually, in myexperience, it actually makes
the situation worse and it makesthe, the next conversation that
(11:21):
you're gonna have to haveharder.
Yeah.
And, um, yeah, and, and to behonest, probably the worst part
for me is that person probably,like in my experience, Lee,
feeling fairly confused.
Nothing really happens becauseI've just, you know, coated it
over and it's, oh, it's allgood, but hey, just, you know,
next time maybe think aboutthis.
(11:42):
Or like, you know, there's,yeah, there's not the clarity
needed to go, alright, this iswhat's gonna be the thing that
needs to happen now to make itbetter.
Or this is how we're gonnaaddress this, or whatever
situation might be.
Yeah.
So I think, yeah, plenty ofexperiences where I, you know,
really chickened out of a hardconversation and, you know, it's
(12:03):
become very.
Unclear.
Yeah.
And the result has not, has notbeen great.
Yep.
Is there, is there, um, if it'snot always easy to know, like, I
guess if, if I'm having, if I'mthe one initiating that tough
conference conversation, isthere work that I need to do
first to make sure that I haveclarity?
(12:25):
Can I, or can I go and say, Hey,I'm frustrated with you.
Is that enough or is that stillpretty?
Unclear about what it is thatI'm actually seeing.
I think it's, yeah.
One of the things that I do, ifthe situation comes up and I
need to have a hardconversation, one of the first
(12:47):
things I do is seek tounderstand everything.
Yeah.
Um, because I think, yeah, Inever really enter in a
conversation saying, Hey, thisis what's happened.
How, what are we gonna do aboutit?
Uh, it's, for me, it's more,Hey, can you talk to me about
what's happened here?
Let me, let me understand what'sgoing on.
(13:10):
Yeah.
Um, you know, it's almost like Ineed to have that clarity before
I can then help give a clear,clear and kind conversation or
Yeah.
Directional guidance in asituation.
Does that answer your question?
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
So in essence, even sometimes,even if we think we might.
(13:32):
Know what the issue is to leadwith curiosity, because maybe
what we think the issue is isn'tactually the issue.
Mm, a hundred percent.
That's what I mean.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
How, how, how can that affectmorale?
If we don't, if we don't leadwith curiosity and we just go in
(13:52):
with those assumptions, is that,can that be a, a, a, a morale
killer?
How, how would that affect theteam if we just show up like
that?
Hmm.
Yeah, great question.
I, it's the leadership approachthat I have is very much leading
(14:14):
with curiosity and seeking tounderstand and, um, trying to do
it all in care, care and love aswell.
Yeah.
So I'm, I, I have not had, well,at least I don't think I have
had many.
Situations where I've had tokind of come in and say, Hey,
this, you know, what's going onhere?
(14:34):
This is a good, and sort of dothat top down like, you know,
I'm your, I'm your lineup.
You need to change, or thisneeds to be better.
I'm, it's not really something Ihave a lot of experience in.
Yeah.
Um, but I can, I, I can recall,um, you know, through my, a lot
of my, the work I do isleadership coaching.
You know, there'll be lots ofsituations that my coaching.
(14:55):
Ing clients bring to me with,with that sort of, um,
situation.
And I think that it's, it's areal, uh, it's, it's a real joy
killer I think as well.
Like, you know, if, if you'resomeone who's at work and, and
you're trying to find joy andfulfillment in the work you're
doing, and you feel like youhaven't been understood, or you
(15:19):
feel like someone's come in and,and just come, come in with a,
with a hard conversation withthat.
Valuing or caring for, for yourpart in this, or whatever it
might be?
I think it can be a real ular inthe sense of, um, yeah, I'm just
not feeling valued.
I'm not feeling like I've got avoice here.
And yeah, I, I'd like to thinkthat, um, the way I lead that,
(15:43):
that that's, there's noopportunity for that.
And, you know, to create a coculture where people can feel
like they can have a hardconversation with me back is
really important.
So.
If I've missed something or ifI've done something that someone
else isn't happy with, like, myhope would be that my team would
feel comfortable coming to meand saying, Hey Kel, I'm not
(16:04):
sure what's going on here.
Can you help me understand whythis directive was given or this
was done?
Yeah.
And that, yeah, I will be ableto have that, that same
response.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
How, how, um, you said somethingthat I, that I thought was
really good that it, that it isa joy killer.
If we do that, what would thatlook like?
(16:26):
Let's say in a family setting,right?
Where it's, it's it's, they'renot showing up to work.
What would the equivalent, is itstill like, am I still gonna
kill joy?
What, what am I gonna kill inthat kind of a situation when
maybe it's with my 7-year-oldwho has done the wrong thing and
I don't lead with curiosity, butI just go in Accusatorily?
Mm.
(16:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um.
Yeah, I am not sure.
I mean, I, I do, I have had a7-year-old, they're older now.
I'm just casting my mind back tomaybe a situation where, um,
yeah, I think, I think whenyou're in a family situation,
(17:09):
especially talking with aboutyounger children, I think, you
know, there's not the, thematurity or even the cognitive,
you know, sort of, um.
Maturity to understand thatthat's not safe or Yeah.
You know, that's, don't, don'tclimb on the cubby house roof.
That won't end well.
Yeah.
Um, you know, it might be a joykiller to them.
(17:33):
Yeah.
But, you know, they don't havethe understanding like that.
Well, that's because that'sunsafe and they're not meant to
yet at seven years old baby.
I know, right?
Uh, but yeah, so I think, Ithink, you know, I, I guess what
that highlights to me is that.
You know, there, there does needto be some sort of maturity and
understanding of what's going onfor someone to be able to come
(17:54):
into that conversation.
And, um, yeah, the, yeah, beinga joy killer I think is, um,
isn't always, I don't think it'sever an intentional thing and I
wonder if it is something thatcomes in and you have to be
like, this is not okay.
Potentially.
There's a really, really goodreason.
Yeah.
(18:15):
They're not safe or, you know,crisis situation.
Um, you know, depending on, onwhat the situation might be.
Could be unsafe.
It could be, um, yeah, could belike, uh, something just happens
to happen really quick rightnow.
Yeah.
This is what we need to do, solet's, let's, this is what it's
gonna get done.
But I mean, you'd hope thatthere would be a trust in that
(18:35):
leader to be able to say, okay,well I trust that you've got,
you've got our best interest atheart still, and.
You know, you, you're doing thisfor a very good reason, so I am
gonna trust that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I, I would imagine that therestill has to be clarity in those
moments.
It just might come after thefact.
(18:56):
Am I on the right track there?
Yeah, yeah.
I would, I would hope so too.
Yep.
Absolutely.
I think the, I can't, um, can'treally imagine.
I can't imagine having to, I I'mjust casting my mind back.
For example, the COVID-19pandemic, you know, um, as, uh,
(19:18):
an organization, manyorganizations during that time,
there was like quick changes andquick things and, you know,
people in place and people inplaces where things just had to
be covered and, you know, sortthrough, like there was, it was
chaos.
And so, yeah, I can, I recallbeing on.
Online with my team, and we arejust like, this is what we're
(19:40):
gonna do.
This is, this is how we're gonnado it, da da da dah.
And it's then becomes somethingwhere if something has happened,
the moment we'll go and do it.
But then there's always a followup meeting or a follow up, you
know?
Yeah.
Like, this is, this is, this iswhat we are doing, guys, where
it's the constant communication,um, and this is why we are doing
it.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
(20:00):
I, I would hope to think that,that that's the case.
Yep.
If it had to come to that.
Yep.
Yeah.
I, um, I wanna go back tosomething you said earlier,
Kelly, when, when you weretalking about holding space.
Um, I'm, I'm curious when you,when you were talking about
holding space for conversations,how do we start that process and
(20:24):
how do we fill that space?
As you were saying, if I'mremembering right with trust and
vulnerability, what, what's thefirst, you know, maybe one, two,
or three steps that we have to,to take?
Can you say more about that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, uh, I, I think it dependsmaybe in what context it's in,
(20:46):
but in my context, the holdingspace for my team definitely
starts with the culture that wehave.
So we have a very, um, we valuehighly, um, time to listen to
each other.
Um.
So my first step always withsomeone is to take them out for
(21:08):
coffee and just hear about them.
Yeah.
Um, not, not the things they dobut them, um, you know, not the
things they do at work, but youknow who they are and, you know,
what brings them joy and theircontext.
Um, potentially, you know, thethings that are going on for
them that might impact, um, theway they show up and the way
they do things.
So that is certainly my stepone.
(21:31):
Yep.
And from there, it's.
It is that maintaining thatrelationship.
Um, and I think that justinvolves more coffee, honestly.
Yes.
And just more time.
But you know, we, we do, we dohave a culture where it, we
value those times.
You know, for some organizationsmight look in and go, oh, there
(21:54):
is so many, so many unproductivehours going on here from walks
to the coffee shop.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and sitting andchatting, um.
You know, fluffing around a bit,but it's, it's those moments
that bring connection and it'sthose moments that bring
understanding and even theincidental conversations, um, in
those moments are super helpfulwhen it comes to knowing how to
(22:15):
work with your team and what theneeds are and what the resources
gaps are.
Um, so those are, that, thatculture is, is really important.
Um, and I think as far as, um.
An ongoing thing and it's notnecessarily a tick box thing
(22:36):
either.
I think it is having thatintentionality around it and
understanding that it takestime.
Like it's not just a, ah, I'mjust gonna schedule a 20 minute
chat with you every fortnight ormonth and tick a box.
It's actually, and it has to bea little bit organic as well, so
you know when there's situationsthat are coming up.
(22:58):
Alright, let's, let's grab acoffee, let's talk about it.
Let's troubleshoot it.
Let, let me coach you throughhow you might come out of this,
um, or work through this.
So there's just, yeah.
That real intentionality andbeing okay with it, taking up
time.
Yeah.
Um, would be, I.
I just have, and I, and I do, Icarve that out in my week.
I have a whole day in my weekwhere I go into the office and I
(23:22):
don't take my computer in.
I just, I'm with people.
Yeah.
I just, it's conversations.
More and more conversations,more and more conversations.
Um.
And yeah, sometimes I sit theretwiddling my thumbs, and then
I'll just go and find someone tohave a conversation with.
Yeah.
And that's, they're the mostrichest, you know, richest times
and where innovation happens andcreativity happens and Yeah.
(23:45):
Um, yeah, people are feeling,you know, you know, we nighting
passion and, um, ideas, so Ifind that really important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Does, does listening impact.
Success of entering the danger?
(24:07):
Or is it, or is that just acultural issue?
Like how, how, how would, howimportant is listening kind of
overall, I guess, and and thenhow important is it just in, in
your, like would it be differentin a different organization?
Well, first and foremost, Ithink listening.
(24:29):
I think it's, there's adifference between listening and
act and hearing.
Yeah.
Like I'm listening to you, butI, but I hear you.
Is I think is, is different.
Um, so, uh, to answer yourquestion, I think hearing is
like yeah.
To be able to.
Like you said, sort of lead withthat curiosity and, and listen
(24:51):
and hear, um, you know, listenfor the, what they're saying
verbally, but also hearing whatthey're not saying.
Yeah.
As well.
I think that's really important.
And you know, I think for someorganization, and that's my
context, that's like we're a, anon-for-profit that works with
young people.
Um, and I have many youngleaders, um, in my teams and so.
(25:14):
For that generation inparticular, like they need to be
heard and they need to of.
Sort of growing to do and as weall do, but I think, you know,
they're more in their sort offormative years and, and early
leadership journey.
So it becomes more important, itmay be in my context, as opposed
to other organizations thatmight, um, have a different, um,
(25:35):
cause or vision, um, and, andway they, they need to work.
But I still think that listeningand hearing is important in any,
any team, any place, anyleadership.
Yeah.
Situation.
And so your goal, your goal in,in listening, if I'm hearing you
right, is to, to understandtheir perspective.
Is that right or or is itsomething else?
(25:58):
Oh, a hundred percent.
It's, it's to understand, it'sto seek to understand as much as
we possibly can.
Um, it's to hear perspective,it's to hear, it's to hear lens
and the more you listen and askquestions, and the more you hear
and ask more.
Sort of nuanced questions.
The, the more is revealed.
(26:18):
Yeah.
And things that, you know, youmight be talking about, um, a,
uh, an administration problem.
And then in, by the end of a 15,20 minute chat, you're actually
talking about, um, a, you know,a situation where this person or
this worker or team member isfeeling really overwhelmed and
stressed because other thingsthat are going on around that,
(26:40):
you are unaware.
I think it's, yeah, it's huge.
It's huge.
It's that it's, it's, it's, youlearn so much by listening,
talking, and listening withpeople.
And if you have thatrelationship and that connection
and that trust and that safetywith someone, they're going to
be more willing to, to say thethings that they might be scared
(27:04):
or fearful saying to a boss whomaybe didn't value Yeah.
That curiosity and that list.
Yeah.
And, and it sounds, if I'mhearing you too, it sounds like.
The more we ask these questionsand the more we're seeking to
understand them, the greaterempathy we're going to be able
to have.
Am I, am I on the right trackthere?
(27:25):
Absolutely.
Empathy is very important.
Uh, especially, you know, thesedays where there, there are so
many pressures and um, so manystresses for people and
families.
I think that the empathy, havingthat humanness, I think is what.
Um, is key there.
It's like yeah.
(27:45):
You know, being real with eachother and, and having empathy
for the situations that aregoing on for them and, um,
having empathy for yourself inthose situations as well.
Yeah, I think it, you know, you,you reflect and roll, you
mirror, mirror that and rolemodel that so much.
Yeah.
Without realizing sometimes Ithink, um, so that, yeah, I
really value that.
(28:05):
Yep.
In a, in a working relationship,how, how do you.
How, how do you use empathy tohelp make change that has to
happen?
Let's suppose I'm gonna make upan example here.
Let, let's suppose that one ofyour team comes in, um, and they
(28:27):
say, you know, Kelly, and theygive some really good reasons,
and you ask questions and youunderstand.
They say, I really just onlywanna work five hours a day
instead of eight.
That's just kind of where I'mfrom.
Yeah.
How, how do you use empathy thento say, I hear you, that's not
all right, we have to work eightAs as an example.
How, how do you make that whenit's, when they might, they
(28:48):
might be in some ways, you know,almost diametrically opposed to,
to what you need?
Mm, yeah.
Great question.
Um, I think you can have empathyand accountability or
responsibility at the same time.
I don't think it's one or theother.
Yeah, I think there is.
(29:09):
Um, so to answer your, thequestion around the situation
you just gave an example of itwould be, let me hear about
what's going on for you.
'cause potentially there'sthings that can shift and change
to help them feel like they canachieve what they need to
achieve.
So help me understand what'sgoing on for you.
Is there things do to supportyou?
(29:31):
Um, understand that that's whatyou are hoping would happen.
Um, this is the reality for us.
So together, how can we makethis work for both parties?
That's a very, you know, that'snot how it would be said, but it
essentially that, that's, that'sthe goal, isn't it?
It's like, I wanna care for you.
Yeah.
(29:51):
But we also have aresponsibility and
accountability to do it thisway, because this is what, what
it is.
Yeah.
So how can, how can we get, howcan we get there?
How can we, how can we make,make both win?
How can we, yeah.
What does it look like to honorboth things here?
Um, you know, but.
I also believe just throughthose care conversations and
(30:14):
having those curiosity questionsand asking, asking the why
behind that, why five hours,what, you know, what's, what's
going on for you there?
Yeah.
Um, you know, and, and beingvulnerable enough as a leader to
go, what, what are we notseeing?
Like, what's going on for you?
Eight hours is making it reallyhard for you.
Like we have to, as leaders, um,be able to use it as a, you
(30:38):
know, a review moment as well.
Okay.
Could we be doing thingsdifferent and better?
Let's talk about that.
Help me, help me to understandwhat it should look like for
you.
Um, because in my contextanyway, they, they all talk and,
you know, they like team memberstalk and, and have, have a
culture, a subculture of theirown.
Yeah.
(31:01):
And behavior norms and stuffwhere they, they, they kind of,
um, yeah, they kind of theculture makers too.
So you wanna, you wanna workwith them, you wanna work with,
with each other to help providean environment, a space where
it, it's a win for people, youknow?
Yeah.
It doesn't have to be awin-lose.
It can, it can be a win-win.
(31:22):
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Life is not a zero sum game.
That's right.
Yeah, that's right.
I'm also hearing you, I thinkthis is, I think this is really
powerful what you've, whatyou've just said.
I think it's really good becausethat could be applied if I'm
hearing you as well, to prettymuch any situation.
You know, someone comes insaying, we'll use this same
(31:45):
example, I need to work fivehours.
Maybe it's because they're notgetting paid enough and they're
having to work a second job.
Or maybe it's'cause.
Right.
Their grandma's sick and theyhave to take care of their
grandma.
Or maybe it's'cause they've goneback to school and they, they're
overwhelmed with school.
And that's what we're trying touncover with the curiosity,
right?
Correct.
Absolutely.
And potentially it's not, okay,let's negotiate your hours
(32:08):
conversation.
It's an outcome that neitherpeople have thought of yet.
That's actually gonna work justthrough having those convers,
like seeking to understandwhat's the, what's really going
on here.
Yeah, it seems like that, thateven to get to that place
though, we, we have to have thisassumption of positive intent.
(32:31):
How important is that when itcomes to being able to lead with
curiosity?
Mm, that is a really great,great question because I am
notorious, um, and sometimes tomy detriment.
Giving people the benefit of thedoubt, seeing, you know,
(32:51):
thinking the best intent ineveryone.
Um, and I don't apologize forthat because I think that's a
really great, great way to lead.
Yeah.
But it has, um, it trips me upis the wrong word, probably, but
I've learn to, um, you ask morequestions, um, you know, learn
to, uh.
(33:12):
What, learn what it looks liketo find out if you can trust
someone by trusting someone andsee what happens.
Um, so, uh, there are def, thereis definitely a, um, yeah, and,
and I think that, you know, you,that discernment has to kick in
a lot.
You have to trust, you know, um,just your discernment in
(33:34):
situations as well.
And, um, I think at the end ofthe day.
Hope I, I would hope to thinkthat the relationship I have
with my team and, and I do knowsome team members better than
others'cause of proximity and,and how I work with them.
So I'm not gonna pretend I knowthe ins and outs of every single
person I work with, but I wouldlike to think that I have enough
(33:57):
of a relationship because that'sour, that's what we value and
that's the culture we have.
That that would be, um, thatthere would just be some real
honesty and transparency withthat.
And, and I have experienced thatwith team members.
I'm like, you know, I wanna workfive hours.
Okay, why?
What's going on for you?
I just don't wanna be here.
More than that.
Like to have permission to, toactually just say how they're,
(34:21):
what's really going on for themand how, and be very real in
that, I think helps with.
That knowing their, what theirintent is, what their
motivations is.
And at the end of the day, I, Idon't think you can fully ever
know for sure.
Yeah.
And I think you just have to doyour best at discerning and, you
know, some, you know, takingsteps of facing in some areas
(34:43):
or, you know, waiting andpausing and just seeing what
comes next in some other areas.
And I think you just step and beokay to have to adjust and
pivot, um, when you need, yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, I'm gonna, I've got, I'vegot one more kind of, kind of
line of questioning I wannatake.
And this is going way back tothe beginning when you were
(35:05):
talking about being real, um,and how we need to be seen as
who we are.
And you were, you were, you werethen talking about, you know, we
shouldn't, um, have toxicpositivity.
How does this idea of toxicpositivity, if at all, impact
(35:26):
our ability to have difficultconversations with people?
Hmm.
How does have toxic positivityaffect how we have difficult
conversations?
Um, well, I think, um.
(35:49):
My experience, there was a, wasa time earlier in my leadership
where we just tried to makeeverything positive so people
would feel, um, everything wasdoable and everything was
achievable and everything wasgreat.
Yeah.
Um, and those little challengesand those things that didn't go
(36:09):
so well and actually reallyimpacted people.
That's still okay becauseeverything else is fantastic.
Like it, that that was stillgood.
Things came out of that.
Like it was, yeah, I think itwas just, um, it, it brought
what I, what I think happened isit brought this, um,
underpinning, I dunno ifculture's the right word, but
(36:33):
this underpinning kind of, um,vibe that, uh.
We have to be so happy and beable to achieve everything and
do everything in so much joy andeverything that is hard and
everything that is reallyactually impacted the way I'm
(36:54):
feeling about my work and whatI'm doing needs to be
suppressed.
Um.
'cause I, you know, wingingisn't helpful right now, or
Yeah.
You know, that, so that was kindof, and it wasn't intent,
obviously.
It wasn't intentional, everyone.
Right.
You know, trying to be positiveand see the bright side because,
you know, the work we do ishard.
(37:14):
Like with young people, you comeacross some really hard things.
So it's, you know, but it was a,it was avoiding and, um, just
not, yeah, just not being realwith each other.
Yeah.
Was just, once we did that, itwas so, it was.
We, you know, it's thatcollaborative like, yeah, this
is really hard.
This actually just, this reallysucks right now, but this is
(37:36):
how, this is how we can moveforward together from here.
Yeah.
So it really brought thatcollaboration together and
helped us to do things betterand helped us, our programs to
be better and helped us to nothave so much stress, overwhelm,
and burnout in our teams becausewe're actually addressing things
and making changes and Yeah, andrecognizing the challenges.
(37:59):
To answer your question, how theimpacts having hard
conversations is in thosemoments where, okay, well this
happened and this wasn't great.
You know, we were able to have,um, that yeah, that culture was
born.
We were able to have those hardconversations about some of
those things with each otherand, um.
It, it was about doing ittogether.
(38:19):
It was a togetherness thing, nota me against you thing.
Um, so I think, yeah, I feellike the toxic positivity people
kind of isolate themselves andlike, it's almost like I'm gonna
just so solo my work becausethen I can just.
Manage and take and take care ofit.
But when you actually bringeverything to the surface and
(38:39):
you collaborate and you supporteach other, and you do team and
you do it together, I think thatcreates that culture where,
yeah, we can actually rumblewith this.
We can actually go back andforth with harder conversations.
Um, and, and, but we are doingit together, so it's okay.
Yeah.
Um, you know, it's a nice, it'san US problem, not just a you
you problem.
Yeah.
Or a that problem.
(39:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's great.
So, so if I'm hearing you rightthere, it's, it, um, this idea
of toxic positivity when, whenwe have to be happy all the
time, that almost inhibits the,the reason it inhibits our
ability is because we, nothingcan be wrong and, and something,
and if we're having a difficultconversation, something has to
(39:21):
be wrong.
Am I, am I hearing you right inthat was one those difficulties.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the, the difficultconversations, it, it's not so
much saying, well, that'sbecause this stuff is wrong.
(39:42):
It's more like, this stuff ishard.
Yeah.
Like that's kind of the, youknow, this is, this is hard.
Yeah.
So those difficult conversationsisn't about, well, let's just
bring to the service everythingthat's wrong.
Right.
It's like, let's actually justbring to the service everything
that's, that's hard and we needeach other on.
Yep.
I think that's, that's probablymore, more what it was for us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or for me.
(40:02):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is, which can be sofreeing, right?
When you can say, man, this wasso tough, instead of
everything's awesome.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
Absolutely.
Hey, Kelly, I've been, I've beenloving this conversation.
Awesome.
It's, it's awesome.
I know we are running low ontime.
I've got a lightning round ofquestions I'd love to jump into
if you're ready.
(40:24):
Sure.
Let's do it.
Great.
I'll give it my best shot.
Great.
It's, if, if you don't, I'll,I'll write a big F and we'll
give you a fail for that.
Okay.
Yeah, that's all.
Okay, that's fine.
That's all, uh, your favoriteleadership quote.
Oh, oh gosh, there are so many.
(40:45):
Um, okay.
It isn't a quote as much, but,um.
Something that a leader said tome once when I was a young
leader, that that reallyimpacted me as a leader and the
way I lead.
And they said to me, Kel, youhave to be okay with somebody
(41:06):
else's a hundred percent beingyour 70%.
Yeah.
And that for me was, um,understanding that people.
Leaders are all on a journeyand, and a growth journey.
And we all, um, ebb and flow atdifferent rates as far as, you
(41:28):
know, what we are learning andwhat we're going through and how
to rise up.
You know, your team inleadership, um, is all about
letting the mistakes happen,being there to support them, and
being okay with that becausepretty soon that 70, that what
you see is 70%.
They will very soon surpass youra hundred percent and do it so
(41:53):
much better in their ownbeautiful way.
Yeah.
Than you could ever have doneit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
What's one underrated skill inleadership?
Listening.
Yep.
Favorite listening.
Go ahead.
Sorry.
Listening with coffee, I, I knowit's not a skill, but I think
(42:17):
it's something that gets lost inthe pace of life.
Yeah.
And I think it's very underratedhow valuable those times are.
Yeah.
Yep.
Your favorite author?
Hmm.
I, I'm gonna have to say BreneBrown because I go to her books
constantly.
Yeah.
Um.
My next favorite author wouldprobably be Pat Cheney.
(42:40):
Yep.
The most frustrating excusesomeone can make for not
entering the Danger.
I don't have time.
Mm.
Your favorite question to askother people.
How are you?
Yeah.
How, how do you I'm gonna, thisis, this is not scripted.
(43:02):
How do you make sure that that'smore than just a, how's it
going?
Sure.
Yep.
So how are you?
So how are you, Zach?
Yeah, yeah, I'm great.
I, I'm, I'm doing great.
Great.
Tell me why You're great.
Yeah.
And so that's, that's what youdo.
(43:23):
Just say, tell me why.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just keep, I keep askingquestions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
I'm gonna, can I steal that fromyou?
Tell me why.
Absolutely.
That's brilliant.
Tell me why.
Yeah.
Uh, back on track.
All right.
You're back on track now.
Uh, what's something you do tomake sure you're always
learning?
(43:44):
Hmm.
Um, well, at the moment I'mstudying, um, and if I'm not
studying, I'm al I'm alwayslooking for sort of like mini
courses or mini trainings that Ican be a part of.
Yep.
Um.
Yeah, I, I do listen to a lotof, um, podcasts as well and
read a lot of leadership books.
(44:05):
So yeah, I, I actually get antsyand if, uh, if I'm not receiving
because leadership to give outso much.
So if I'm not receiving yeah.
Um, I get would be antsy.
Yep.
Uh, do you have a favoritepodcast?
You this one?
Absolutely.
You can't pick yourself.
You're my favorite podcast thateveryone ever Absolutely.
(44:29):
No, you can't pick, you can'tpick yourself.
Okay.
Besides, besides entering theDanger Zone, my favorite podcast
would be, um, Brene.
Bre Renee's leadership podcastis something that I go back and
listen to a lot, um, and at thetable group and diary the CE.
(44:52):
I will put links to all those inthe show notes for anyone, uh,
wanting them.
Uh, what's a book that you keeprereading?
Um, dare to Lead by Brene Brown.
Yep.
What's a quality you see inothers that makes you excited to
get to know them?
(45:18):
That's a really good question.
Quality, uh, uh, when you getthe vibe, they're genuine.
Mm, genuine, yeah.
People who, who, who show upgenuinely.
(45:39):
Yeah.
Yep.
Your favorite way to build trustwith other people?
Coffee.
Yeah.
No, that's, that's, that's not agreat answer.
Um, my favorite way, way tobuild trust with people would
be, um, sharing, like doing lifewith them.
Sharing with them, yeah.
(46:00):
Yeah.
That's good.
Yeah.
I'm glad you changed your answer'cause I don't drink coffee.
So basically we'd never havetrust if that was the, oh look,
I've got many variations that Ican, I can buy you a tea, a hot
chocolate.
Yeah.
Great.
Whatever works.
Uh, how does gratitude impactyour life?
Say that one again.
(46:21):
How does gratitude impact yourlife?
Yes.
Um.
Gratefulness, um, is somethingthat I press into often when,
especially when times are tough,um, when there's a lot of tough
(46:41):
situations that are happening.
It's, um, it, it's when I pressinto gratitude and it's, and
it's funny because I forget todo it a lot.
Yeah.
But when I am with my kids andthey're going through tough
situations.
I will always help them to findgratitude, like to press into
gratitude.
And that reminds me, it's justas wholesome for me as it's, it
(47:05):
is for them.
Yep, yep, yep.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Kids are a great teacher.
They sure are.
Are they?
Mm-hmm.
How do you stay sharp at work?
Uh, getting good sleep and, um,I make sure I do, um, I exercise
two or three times a week.
Yep.
(47:25):
What do you do to rest?
Um, uh, it's gonna sound weird,but I go for a run.
Yeah.
Um, it doesn't sound weird whenI run.
Yeah.
It, when I run, that's when mymind becomes clear and I can
just be with my thoughts and Ican think about.
(47:48):
Things that I just don't havetime to think of a lot.
Yeah.
Um, you know, whether, whetherthat be, you know, about time I
had with my mom last week or,you know, whatever it is, I
just, I just use that time to,it's real me time and connection
with God time for me.
Yeah.
And that's, that's risk for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it doesn't sound weird atall.
(48:08):
Uh, one of my favorite thingsabout this question is how many,
like, we have people who hikeand run and who go to the gym
and, you know, you name itswimming.
Very few times it's actuallykind of doing nothing.
It's rest is not usually doingnothing Anyway, that's neither
here nor there.
Um, last question, Kelly.
Uh, is white chocolate reallychocolate?
(48:30):
Yes.
Have you ever had top deck?
Do you have that over in theStates?
No.
No.
Do you remember Top Deck?
I think I do remember it.
That's the one where it'schocolate on the bottom and
white on the top.
Is that.
Yeah.
Yes.
And it's the best chocolateever.
So a hundred percent.
Yeah, its chocolate.
Great, great.
Awesome.
Glad to hear it, Kelly.
I love, I've loved thisconversation so much.
(48:52):
Before we go, two more quickthings.
Is there anything you're workingon that you, that you would love
to share?
And if people want to get a holdof you, how can they do that?
Absolutely.
Um, so I don't have a greatsocial media presence, but I am
on LinkedIn.
Um, so I have my coaching withKel Page, um, where I share some
leadership, um, insights and um,yeah, that's how people can
(49:16):
connect with me.
Um, and the thing that I'mworking on at the moment is I.
I'm in a bit of a transitionstage at the moment where I'm
doing some studying and figuringout what, what's gonna happen
with that.
Um, so can I put a TBC on it andlet you know?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
If there's anything, if anythinggreat comes outta that, that'll,
(49:36):
that'll be my thing I'm workingon.
Yep, totally.
I will, I'll also put a link toKelly's, uh, LinkedIn page in
the show notes.
Go give her a follow.
She's got, she's got good stuffin there.
Uh, thank you again, Kelly, somuch.
I love this conversation.
I look forward to the next timewe catch up.
Yeah.
Thanks, Zach.
It's been so fun, and thank youfor having me and for the time
(49:58):
that you put into everything youdo.
It's making the world a betterplace, so thank you.
Oh, well thank you.
I appreciate it.
Bye.
All right.
Catch.
What an awesome conversation.
Kelly, thank you so much againfor joining me on the podcast
this month.
I really appreciate your time.
My guest next month is gonna bePat Richie.
(50:18):
Pat is a Table Group consultant.
Before joining the Table group,as one of their principal
consultants, he worked with theSan Francisco 49 ERs and was a
member of five Super Bowl teamswith the 49 ERs.
He also worked with the SanFrancisco Giants for 13 years as
well.
That conversation's reallygreat, and I hope you'll come
back and join me next month forthat episode.
(50:41):
Thank you all so much forjoining me this month on the
Enter The Danger Podcast.
I really appreciate you beinghere with me, and I'm grateful
for your time.
If you enjoyed the podcast, I'dalso appreciate it if you left a
review or rate it wherever youconsume your podcasts.
But more than that, I'd reallyappreciate it if you shared the
podcast with someone else.
(51:01):
If you have any advice to me,I'd love to hear from you.
You can email me at Zach, that'sZA c@zwilcoxconsulting.com.
That's also my website, z wilcoxconsulting.com, or you could
call me at(559) 387-6436.
I also take texts if you don'tlike to call or if you just
(51:22):
wanna talk about entering thedanger as well and what that
means, how to implement that ina better way in your own life.
Please let me know.
I'd love to connect and chat.
I love meeting new people.
I love talking about this topicof entering the danger.
Thank you friends for being hereagain.
Until next time, let's rememberto choose kindness.
Empathy and curiosity.
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