Baggy makes real ruffle handbags & NFT bags. Unintuitive lessons from Claire Zhong: That impatience can be a virtue. That what resonates with people wins — and that’s not always correlated with how much time you've put into it. That maximalist designs can be worn by minimalists and grungy people. That you can make a business out of a product that’s not really your style. And while we're at it: hit baggylondon.com with the code ENTREPRENEURIAL15 for 15% off her amazing, colorful, fluffy, fun, maximalist bags.
Chapters
(00:00:00) Intro & Origins
(00:02:53) NFT Bags
(00:08:05) Learning How to Sew
(00:10:19) Making of the First Physical Bag
(00:15:15) Impatience as a Virtue
(00:18:48) From Idea to First Product in One Day
(00:21:47) The Randomness of What Resonates with People
(00:23:33) Loving the Creation Process over Having Expectations
(00:26:04) Weeks Passed until the First Sale
(00:28:39) What Makes a Trend
(00:33:21) Seeing a Baggy Girl in the Wild
(00:35:37) World Wide Audience
(00:38:07) Operational Flow & Fulfillment Process
(00:43:29) Sales Channels
(00:44:42) Challenges & Getting Designs Stolen
(00:49:05) Advice
(00:52:02) Juggling Full-Time Job as a Product Manager
(00:54:29) What's Next
(00:57:25) Thanks
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rhaime Kim (00:00):
Claire Zhong is the founder of Baggy, which is a
London-based brand that makesNFT and real handsewn bags.
Claire and I met at PhillipsAcademy Andover, a boarding
school in Massachusetts, wherewe were the best of friends. So,
Claire, I've been wanting to dothis for a long time. And in my
mind, you're always like thefirst person I interviewed. So
(00:21):
I'm so happy you're here.
Claire Zhong (00:23):
Thanks for having me. I'm so pleased that you've
taken the leap withEntrepreneurial as well, I know
that this is something thatyou've wanted to do to kind of
capture the stories of founders.
So thanks for having me on.
Rhaime Kim (00:36):
One of my memories of you, when we were in high
school, was you falling asleepwith a physics textbook in your
arms in my little chair in myroom. You were super creative
back then. I feel like with yourfull time job, as a product
manager at Depop, and withBaggy, you've kind of found your
(01:00):
tech and like art niche.
Claire Zhong (01:04):
It was a journey getting here. I definitely
didn't think that there wasgoing to be a role in the real
world that kind of satisfied meand satiated me from both like a
tech perspective and art andfashion perspective. But I
really think I've found it. Andluckily, it's something that has
(01:24):
a lot of synergies with my sidepassion projects as well. So
absolutely. You know, it's beena long journey here, but I think
I'm in a happy place right nowwith with where I am.
Rhaime Kim (01:36):
Yeah. Well, tell me about how you got started with
Baggy. When did you get startedand how did the idea come about?
Claire Zhong (01:46):
I've always wanted to create a fashion product.
Over COVID, I learned how to sewI think like a lot of other
folk, I've been selling on Depopfor a while. I think since
university I sold thrifteditems, and secondhand on Depop.
I really enjoyed the styling,the packaging -- the entire
(02:07):
process of creating a brand, andcreating styled items that folk
enjoy. So over COVID, I reallytook that to the next level by
creating handsewn accessorieslike bandanas and scrunchies.
And even little denim bags. Ithink a lot of people were doing
that at the time. And then inlate 2021, I took the next step
(02:30):
to creating an NFT inspiredfashion boutique, Baggy London,
where we sell kind of rufflehandbags. As you kind of
mentioned, we have both an NFTside of the business as well as
an analog real humbug side ofthe business. And the kind of
ladder is where I'm focusingmost of my energy right now.
Rhaime Kim (02:52):
I feel like fashion and creativity like all that
stuff has always been a part ofyour interest. So I'm curious,
when did you first have the ideaof Baggy? And did that start
with like a
Claire Zhong (03:03):
sketch? Of course.
So we started back in the end of2021. And, you know, it's an
interesting story, because ifyou cast your mind back to that
time, it was a time where NF T'swere all the rage, but I've long
had a fascination with kind ofweb three and crypto. I worked
(03:24):
in a blockchain startupincubator in 2016. And my role
at the time was specifically inkind of rallying and connecting
founders who are women andunderrepresented minorities in
blockchain and crypto, as wellas other emerging tech like AR
and VR as well. Back in 2021,and even today, if you took a
(03:44):
look at open sea or any otherNFT marketplace, it was chock
full of traditionally malesubjects and collectibles. You
know, gaming board a yacht club.
I don't know if you've had alook at that. And you know, like
you said, I've always been superinterested in are super
creative. And with NF T's beingheralded as the intersection
(04:05):
between tech and art, I wasexpecting to see art that
obviously resonated with me, andthat I loved as well. But yeah,
I wasn't really seeing anythingthat was nuanced, inspiring or
appealing. I don't know if youremember or no like the metal
Birkin series. But these werelike the first NF T's that
(04:27):
showed me like the transcendentpossibilities that digital art
hard. Just for those who don'tknow, the metal Birkins was
created by a digital artist andthey kind of created a series of
NFT handbags inspired by theBirkin. But they were really
like cool and beautiful. And itwas, you know, quite fitting
(04:48):
because if you think aboutluxury handbags, their value is
definitely super transcendentand symbolic, more than the sum
of its parts just like NF T'sand yeah, these images they were
so Super exciting and artful.
There were all these bags thatwere colorful, textured,
structural, and conceptual,which really inspired me to
create my own series of metalhandbags under the baggy leather
(05:12):
name. And yeah, baggies,founding mission statement was
to raise the profile andaccessibility of web three, and
crypto and women by bridging thereal life world of fashion and
shopping with the more nebulous,intimidating world of web three.
And to answer your question,baggy London, the analog Boggs
was the first kind of weproduction ized, one of our more
(05:37):
kind of realistic designs, andwe actually funded that
production through one of ourNFT sales. And the reason why
we're kind of a web three cryptoBoutique is because our fashion
kind of story and origin issuper inspired by like, the
bigger, more transcendentstructural shapes that digital
art really enables. So we hadthese, like Super Bowl signs
(06:00):
that were, you know, really madepossible by like cutting
collaging and curating imageryin a kind of more digital art
way. So yeah, our first designwas an NFT. That was production
ized. Yeah,
Rhaime Kim (06:13):
I didn't know that baggies, actual for sale was the
NFT concept. So I wonder if in away, you felt like the sale of
the NFT bag meant that the reallife design would also do well?
Or for you was it just like thepracticality of it is easier to
(06:33):
generate a digital version, andthen to production realize it is
a little bit of a differentproblem?
Claire Zhong (06:40):
Yeah, I think you make a good point there. I think
the reason why I've always loveddigital art. And I guess just
like manipulation of images isbecause it's so accessible. And
I think when you're like avisual person, being able to
make possible and make realthings that are just in your
head, with all these shortcutsthat are available to you, you
(07:01):
know, there are so many, youknow, references that we can
derive from so many imagery, somuch imagery that we can
literally just copy and paste inthis, you know, new digital
landscape that we exist in thatit was so much easier for me to
be able to bring to lifesomething through digital means.
(07:22):
But then obviously marrying thatwith my love for style and my
love for fashion and my penchantfor sewing, it kind of just made
sense that now I had you know,800 USD from the sale of an NFT
this was more than enough tofind, or first. I know, and you
know, having hustled and madereal bags, over COVID. And each
(07:45):
bag would take me like three orfour hours to make. And I would
make what like $25 from that. Iwas like I actually didn't want
to do the analog side anymore. Iwas like, let's just keep making
NF T's. But then, you know,well, I wanted to wear these
bags. I wanted my friends towear these bags. Yeah. So that's
why we progressed with the reallife prototype.
Rhaime Kim (08:06):
So you actually so the first bags. Yeah. Is Did you
hand sew them? Do you have asewing machine? Like how did
that work?
Claire Zhong (08:17):
Yeah, good question. So I have a sewing
machine. And like I said, likeover COVID I made like, quite
simple things like bandanasscrunchies. And then also these
like bugs that were a bit shitbecause they didn't have
lighting but I sold themanyways. And I said it took me
three or four hours to makethem. But yeah, of course bug
was made on a sewing machine onlike a brother sewing machine.
(08:41):
It was a lot smaller than thecurrent prototype. Like think
like the Lady Dior like thesmallest size, and it was
actually a top handle bag. Thebag now is actually a lot
bigger. It's like akin to likean A five size and it has more
like a shoulder strap. But yeah,that was that was the first
(09:02):
design that I made.
Rhaime Kim (09:05):
How did you learn how to sew? Did you watch like
YouTube videos or learn it fromsomebody in person?
Claire Zhong (09:13):
Yeah, so I I don't think I like learn how to sew
properly. I'm quite like animpatient person, you know, a
bit of a through line from likedigital art stuff. It's so easy
to take shortcuts, like Imentioned on really quickly
production is something that'sreal and tangible. Sewing is not
(09:35):
like that poultry is not likethat. So I learned how to use a
sewing machine like the basicsof how to thread the needle, how
to get it going, but definitelydidn't like really kind of learn
how to like cut patterns,understand like different
textures and different materialsproperly. Which causes you a lot
(09:57):
of headaches for everyone who'sa seamstress or a dress. Make
her out there, you'll know. Butyeah, it was over COVID I was at
my boyfriend's mom's house. Andshe had a sewing machine. So I
learned how to sew from her andmyself and my boyfriend sister
would work on creating all ofthese accessories to be sold on
Depop. So yeah, that's where mysewing experience comes from.
Rhaime Kim (10:19):
This is like the the nice feminine version of
creating like a software startupin a garage. I guess it's like,
you know, you your boyfriend'smom and your boyfriend, sister?
I think that's really cute. Didyou point of like hands of hand
crafting those first few bags?
Did you have a pet pattern thatwas formally drawn out? I don't
(10:43):
really know how the planning ofthose things like work? Or did
you have a visual representationof what the final product would
look like?
Claire Zhong (10:53):
Yeah, um, what I did was I created like a pattern
through just cardboard. So Iphysically kind of like built
out like, imagine like a 3dmodel, I built out like a body
of the bag. And then basically,like, the key signature of the
bog is like the ruffle on theshoulder strap. So you have to
(11:17):
kind of sew that against the,the handles, so you can't really
kind of emulate that with withcardstock. But that's kind of
how I started it. But toactually get them productionize,
I, my mom actually found atailor. And we still use them
today to make all of our bugs, Isent her the prototype, and my
mom is an absolute superstar.
(11:38):
She's very similar to me, in thesense that she gets things done
super quickly. So I sent it toher and she immediately like the
first line of samplesproductionize. And it was so
amazing for, you know, myselfbeing the impatient person that
I am to kind of see everythingcome to fruition so quickly. But
(11:58):
you know, when I first got thebags back, they were actually a
lot bigger than I thought theywere going to be. And it was
quite jarring. If you cast yourmind back, if anyone, like small
baguette bags, like we're allthe rage news structured mini
bag, it was all about like y2k,90s tiny bags, and I've just got
(12:22):
these huge bags, like fuck offbags that were not called handle
bags, which what was what Iimagined they were huge. And
actually, it's funny because itwas so unlike anything that was
on the market at the time, thatit really like destabilize, like
my entire idea for what bikiewas. And it was really Scarah.
(12:46):
But I'm really glad that westuck to that original
dimension, because the timeshave caught up with and now it's
all about these big organicsilhouettes. And they're
colorful as well. And I think itreally like edifies our kind of
like foundational ethos of beingbig, being colorful taking up
(13:08):
space. Like why do you have tohave a tiny ass bag that doesn't
fit anything? You want a bagthat really makes a statement?
Exactly. And I'm just so gladthat we stuck with that, even
though at the time it was quitejarring.
Rhaime Kim (13:21):
Okay, wait. So you're saying that the
interpretation of the tailor wasto create bags that were
slightly bigger because you werefirst envisioning like a much
smaller baguette kind of trendybag, but you actually ended up
sticking with the larger design.
Is that right?
Claire Zhong (13:38):
Yes. So I think the prototype was a lot smaller,
it was like a top handle bag.
But the depths of the actualbody meant that you couldn't
actually put anything in it. SoI think maybe for the tailor is
also easier to work with justlike bigger dimensions as well.
So it ended up being a lotbigger, but because they're so
colorful, it it felt really bigand it was like finger them and
(14:06):
it's like ruffled so it's likevery voluminous but we stuck
with I think we went with thatinterpretation of it. And it's
so interesting how the bug getsinterpreted from like its
digital form and then freeinterpreted to its analog form
and then reinterpreted throughsomebody else's eyes and this is
a through line that you know I Isee in bodies evolution as well
(14:30):
and power customers wear anddumb the bags. So it's just
yeah, super cool and superexciting to have the bag go
through those evolutions.
Rhaime Kim (14:41):
Yeah, and it really changed and I think something
that I've noticed about youClaire is like you're always
working on different things. AndI think a lot of people say hey,
I have this idea in the back ofmy mind or don't you think this
would be a good idea? Andthey're honestly good ideas. But
I feel like you're always likeactually doing stuff so it It's
cool to see that like youmentioned, you're impatient, I
(15:02):
guess, you can start with NF T'sand like, you know, having
digital products, but then youjust keep on changing as new
inputs and new situations arise,which is, like really cool. You
said that you're like impatient.
And I feel like that's somethingthat's also something I'm trying
to grapple with. But do youthink that that helps in your
(15:25):
creation process? Or is thatsomething you're actively
working on? Like, as you growthe business, you have to become
more patient,
Claire Zhong (15:34):
I think I've done a lot of work to kind of harness
impatience into a virtue. So Ithink, being super self aware, I
think a lot of women kind ofover philosophize or pathologize
the way that they are. Andthat's definitely one of our
strengths, because we're superconsiderate and self aware. But
then sometimes that can workagainst us. And I think going
(15:57):
back to your first point aboutlots of people always talk about
wanting to start something, orthey always have these great
ideas, or they kind of talk itto death. I think it's because
we over index on wanting to havea super coherent kind of plan of
action, as well as like anarrative for what you're doing,
(16:18):
to make it worth doing. Anddefinitely was something that we
observed in baggy as well, like,I had this super lofty goal at
the basic beginning of baggy tosay, you know, what I want to do
is I want to raise awareness ofcrypto and web three, through
baggy. Because I've seen all ofthese, like traditionally male
(16:38):
subjects, I want to proliferateand make, you know, raise the
profile of female subjects ortraditionally morpheme feminine
subjects like fashion andshopping and, and help women
find the sort of art that they'dlike to see in web three. And I
really kind of overintellectualized and, you know,
really tried to narrative eyesthat that side of the business.
(17:02):
But you know, what, like NFT andweb three, it's hard to crack,
it's hard to sell things on thetheory of network, and
especially with what we've seenwith web three, even though it's
something that I definitely wantto revisit in the future, it's
taken me on this journey, whereI just really enjoy making these
bugs and really enjoy seeingthem on my customers. And it's,
(17:24):
it's helped me kind of pivot andlearn from having that product
out to the market. And then Ireally feel like I have reached
product market fit withsomething that is completely
divorced from like the initialgenealogy of I guess what, what
we're trying to do? To answeryour question, I think, you
know, I've really seen the valueof my impatience. You know, even
(17:48):
though I did a lot of work tomake sure that I had a really
coherent story. I'm tooimpatient, be a perfectionist,
I'm too impatient to Yeah, Ijust get things out there, I
create content, I did so muchsocial media activation at the
beginning, even though it gotabsolutely no engagement. But it
was just something that I keptwanting to do. So that's
(18:10):
definitely a trait that's helpedme out throughout throughout the
course of throughout the course,of boggy. And I hope will
continue to be endemic to theway that I am and the way that I
kind of go about beingenterprising and building
ventures in the future as well.
Rhaime Kim (18:25):
Yeah, definitely.
Because I think the easiest wayto learn is by doing right,
there's so much content on theinternet about you can learn how
to do so many different things.
But if you're just always atthat stage of planning and
planning, it's like, trust me,it's like the fastest way you'll
learn is just by your ownmistakes and your own little,
you know, realizations about howto do things the best way. So,
(18:50):
you mentioned that you got yourfirst bags from the tailor. And
I would imagine that your familywas based in Shanghai then is a
tailor, you know, in in Shanghaiand sending the goods between
China and where you are in theUK in London, was there several
(19:11):
weeks in between? And what didthat back and forth process
initially look like? From whenyou share the designs with the
tailor, maybe the time period ittook until when you were you
actually had the final productand were able to start selling
them online? It actually wasn'tvery
Claire Zhong (19:29):
long at all. And we have WeChat so I sent my mom
the designs and she really islike the backbone of the
business. And when I said thatthings get reinterpreted. I
think she probably interpretedthe designs and you know,
communicated that with thetailor in the way that she does.
So I think I I told her, I senther the bag and went to sleep
(19:54):
and then the next morning shehad them done. They were photos
and my
Rhaime Kim (19:58):
WeChat bye That is and so satisfying. But you did
you know, they were that bigwhen you got the photos?
Claire Zhong (20:08):
No. And also just a bit shocking as well. It's
like, it's literally like youhad a dream. And it just
happened. Literally, but yeah,literally that. So yeah, I went
to went to bed woke up saw thephotos, and then it took maybe
like two weeks for the bugs toget to me. But then I'm trying
(20:28):
to remember what it was likebecause I obviously had to like
set up my website. I think wehad Instagram at the time, take
product photos. See this is anexample of my impatience as
well. The product photos thatyou see to this day, are not
actually like product photos Itook of the bags, when they got
(20:48):
to me like with like studiolighting, they were the photos
that my mom took up the bogusing her like shitty android
phone
Rhaime Kim (20:58):
sent over. I had no idea.
Claire Zhong (21:02):
You're not even high quality photos. But I
remember just taking thosephotos and they had like all the
shit in the background of, youknow, just like the Taylor's
work room. I just took thoseimages, I cut the background
out. And I just like chucked iton some like, random, like,
picture on my camera roll. And Iwas like, Oh, that's good
enough. And those are the sameimages that are like used and
(21:25):
circulated and reproduced forbaggy today, we have like 1.4
million, like read pins onPinterest on some of these
images. So it really does showthat cool. That's yeah, there's
no, there's no correlationbetween how much effort you put
into something. Andserendipitously, you know how
much people resonate with them?
Rhaime Kim (21:47):
Yeah, and that's a really interesting, like, kind
of conclusion you made there.
Because I mean, I guess we allonly have 24 hours in a day. And
so it's like, how did thingscatch on like, like you said,
sometimes it's unexpected. It'sprobably like a concept that
like, resonates with somebody,not necessarily about the
technical quality of thephotographs and stuff. But I
honestly would have neverguessed. So both your mom, maybe
(22:11):
she's a good photographer, butyou're probably also good, like,
editor.
Claire Zhong (22:15):
Yeah, I think as product managers, you always
learn to, you know, to kind ofdiscern patterns in the things
that you're doing, you know,every experiment that you've run
is, is like, you're testinghypotheses, and you're iterating
with the learnings from thosehypotheses towards like, an end
goal. And you have this likestrategic direction that you're
(22:36):
slowly codifying through all ofyour learnings. And generally,
there are trends and things areillogical, sometimes things are
random. But when it comes tolike, the visual medium, and
with fashion, there are trendsthere as well. But I do think
that it is generally like quiterandom, like when I've run
Instagram ads, like there reallyis no rhyme or reason with what
(22:59):
sort of imagery, what sort ofcomposition and what sort of,
yeah, just like style ofphotography works well and
resonates with Yeah, so I dothink that like bias to action
helps in those scenarios.
Because as long as it's stuffthat you're happy creating, and
it's stuff that you're you feelis authentic to you, you're
gonna enjoy doing it. And beingable to kind of propagate that
(23:24):
to a wider audience will justgive you a higher chance of
success in terms of Yeah, likegetting your product out there.
Rhaime Kim (23:34):
I don't know if you know your personality thing you
but are you like I likeintuitive or whatever?
Intuition. Is it?
Claire Zhong (23:41):
What's the opposite of what is the opposite
of intuitive one? I think I amthough, I'm 100% an intuitive
person.
Rhaime Kim (23:51):
Yeah, that's what it sounds like. Because I love
advice like that. Because, Imean, even for me with this
podcast, I just want to create,you know, and I try to do my
studying and listen to otherpeople's stuff. I think it's
important to learn about otherpeople's lessons because they
can save you time. Butultimately, if you're really
(24:13):
trying to kind of stampsomething that somebody else
did, my belief is that it's notgoing to work as well as it had
for that person because theyfigured it out and they have
some kind of special sauce. Soit's cool to hear that, you
know, you're just kind ofputting things out there that
you like, and then it's just agame of experimentation. Really,
(24:33):
you don't always know what'sgonna
Claire Zhong (24:35):
hit for sure. But I think the difference perhaps,
is, you know, it's so importantthat and this is something I've
learned and I'm sure you have aswell like you said, this is
something you've always wantedto do even if no one listens,
you know you're gettingsomething out of it. You're
getting to hear all of thesepeople's stories and it's just
(24:56):
something that you're passionateabout. Similarly with with baggy
like being able to create theselike visual stories on kind of
visual mediums. And a way ofkind of bringing the product to
life is something I'm going toenjoy doing, regardless of who's
liking or buying my bags. And Ithink kind of, you know, it
really comes down to like, whyyou're doing something, if
(25:18):
you're doing something becauseyou think that you're gonna go
viral, or you're you're going tohit the jackpot or get lucky,
then that's the wrong reason todo it. Because statistically,
that's not going to happen. Andit's not happened for me either.
You know, there wasn't that ahamoment, there was no viral
moment for me, I never wentviral. And you know, it's slow
(25:39):
and steady, it's not glamorous.
So if you don't enjoy thatprocess, then you're not going
to, you're it's not going toendure, and you're not going to
be around in x months time. So Ireally think that like finding
that thing that reallyrepresents not only like the
outcome and output, but youknow, a means of creating that
(26:01):
really, you really enjoy it issuper, super important. What's
been the,
Rhaime Kim (26:06):
what was it like to have your first analog bag sale?
So your physical bag,
Claire Zhong (26:13):
so I kind of mentioned that it took like one
day for the bag to actually comeinto fruition? Which, yeah, but
then to get my first sale, thatwas definitely longer. I think
it might have been actuallylike, a few weeks. And that was
super challenging and superdiscouraging. And it does kind
of put into question here. Like,there are folks out there who
(26:35):
put years and years of r&d intocreating things, people who went
to fashion school, people whoare so learned about, you know,
fashion, fashion houses,creative directors over the
years for all of these massivefashion houses, and it does just
knock your confidence in termsof flow, there's a reason that
so much time and effort goesinto it. Nobody is buying my
(26:57):
Boggs, you know. And yeah, Iremember literally sitting in
front of the TV, and like, beinglike to my boyfriend, like I've
got no sales. And then like thenext hour being like, I've
gotten no sales and he's likeshut up. And it was really
discouraging, because the bagwas so different. So unlike
anything on the market, I reallyhad no evidence to suggest that
(27:18):
I would make even one sale. Youknow, obviously I had experience
selling other things likevintage or thrifted clothes, but
the very nature of intentionthrifted clothes is that they've
been worn before you have thesocial that somebody's worn
before. And even the handmadeaccessories I made, you know,
they were pretty derivative ofother things that you saw on the
(27:38):
market. And that's what makesthem I guess, like purchasable
sellable. So this felt a lotmore risky, a lot more personal.
But yeah, my approach really waslike quantity over quality at
the time. Lots of social media,lots of content. My boyfriend
sister told me that my videosare super, too good millennials.
(27:59):
So we had to pivot from that aswell. But then eventually, my
first sale was actually not froma friend it was from just a
random person. So that was supershocking. Oh my god. Yeah. And
so real, super surreal. Iremember like looking up their
name on social media being like,they must be a freak. And no,
(28:20):
they were just a normal, fashionloving girl. And that was
honestly so exciting. And soamazing. And then I started
getting some sales from myfriends as well, which is
obviously great. And then Ithink, yeah, like they were
them, their friends, ask themwhere they get that from, and
then the cycle kind of continuesfrom there.
Rhaime Kim (28:39):
Because it's so iconic, right? Like your bags, I
guess you're saying thatactually the Taylor's
interpretation, your mom's maybe of the bag being much bigger.
And because it has a pop ofcolor and the ruffle, it's very
loud. Like, it's a statementpiece. If somebody's wearing it.
I feel like I could totally seesomebody being like, Oh, where'd
you get that from? Like, youknow, especially if it's like
the hot pink color.
Claire Zhong (29:00):
Yeah, and it kind of a lot of my friends told me
initially, like, you know, thisis the only thing that I wear,
that gets me a lot ofcompliments. And I was
reflecting on that. And I waslike, it doesn't really mean
necessarily that they love it.
You know, when somebody justwears something that's a little
bit out there, you haven't evenhad the time to decide whether
or not you like it or you don'tlike it, you're going to comment
(29:22):
on it and you're just going tonaturally what you're gonna say
is like, I like that, but then Ithink that's kind of what's
exciting and fun about fashion.
Anyways, like you don't need toimmediately like like something
or make that decision. It justneeds to be memorable. And then
with times and with with Yeah,just like the times catching on
(29:43):
and with all of the differentcultural symbols that kind of
evolve, people will like it andlearn to love it. And I think
that actually is what makescertain fashion pieces more
iconic and more enduring. Yeah,so So yeah, I guess my takeaway
from that is like, people don'tneed to like it immediately. But
(30:06):
the fact that it's memorable, Ithink has really made beckylyn
than the success that it hasbeen to date.
Rhaime Kim (30:12):
Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, what you're
saying about that it's likeBirkenstocks or crocs. It's like
you first look at it. And you'relike, yes. kind of shocking. But
then you got it. Yeah. Or evenjust when this trends change,
you're like, Oh, thosesunglasses look weird. I think
it's a little bit extra. Andthen you keep looking at it. And
you're like, you know what, Ikind of want it now. So yeah, I
(30:35):
guess? Yeah, yeah, it's cool. Ithink because your bags are such
a statement piece. I guess theyend up marketing themselves.
Claire Zhong (30:44):
Yeah, I think I agree with you. I love the
marketing side of things.
Predominantly, because theymarket themselves, like, like
you said, and, you know, I wasgonna say earlier to your point
about Crocs or sunglasses. Iwork at Depop we say this thing
(31:04):
where style is a function ofclothes, and the people that
wear them, I want to add tothat, as well. It's probably a
function of the uploads thepeople as well as the time and
the zeitgeist that they existwithin. And I think that's so
what's so wonderful even withwhat I've observed. Baaghi is
like the constant is like thebag we've only had one style,
(31:26):
which is also something that I'msuper proud of, because you
know, with the cultivation ofmicro trends and sustainability
in fashion, you really don'twant to be feeding into that.
But I guess when you crossclothes and people and time what
you get is this like abundantreflection of clothes and items
being styled and worn again andagain, each time reproducing and
(31:49):
being you know, derivative ofsymbols that exists within the
time. But then each time thewearer and the person kind of
adds like their unique essenceto it. And it's what I love
about this whole journey withbaggy as well. It's what makes
fashion like not obvious. When Istarted this brand, you know
where this colorful, roughlybog, you immediately think more
(32:12):
like a cottage coquette vibe,you know, and that's not really
my style, you know, mean? Likethis maximalist vibe, and that's
definitely direction thatenvisioned the brand taking on
in absence of any of the girlsor people wearing them. But then
over time, even over these pastlike two or so years, I've seen
(32:33):
girls wear the bags and so manydifferent styles like
minimalist, grungy, moreromantic, more scandium
interesting, you know, likeHawaii, stylings, girls like
putting claw clips and bows andeven like low of a brooches on
them. And obviously, we have allof these colors and styles
beyond categorization that I'msure you know what we'll
(32:55):
continue to see. And yeah,that's what makes this whole,
like seeing bags on customers.
Super exciting. And even if thebag itself doesn't really change
the context within which itexists. And the fact that style
is this amazing function ofbaggy, but then also baggy
(33:16):
girls, is actually what justmakes all of this super, super
exciting
Rhaime Kim (33:20):
recently, did you bump into somebody who was
wearing the baggy bags?
Claire Zhong (33:26):
Oh my god. Yeah, like that really was my I made a
moment. It really is crazy. AndI was doing the math in my head
being like, okay, what are thechances but anyways, I'll tell
you because it's it was such agreat moment. For me. I was just
walking in Shoreditch after thegym or something. And I saw on
the distance this girl with thisdenim baggy bag, and I ran up to
(33:49):
her and I was like, where's yourbag from? And she was like baggy
London. I can tell it from theway that she was saying it can.
Yeah, I can tell from the wayshe was saying it. Like it was
kind of blase that like she getsthis question a lot, you know,
and I was just like, I'm baggy.
Baggy leaded. Oh, my God was sheshook. I was like, I'm baggy
(34:10):
London. And then I was alsolike, as I was walking was
actually just about to postsomething on our Instagram. So I
was like, showing her I waslike, Well, yeah, I'm baggy
London. And she was like, oh mygod, I love what you do. And
then anyways, obviously, thishas never happened to me before.
So I just asked to take apicture of her and her friends
and she looked so cute. She waswearing it with like, the most
adorable outfit and her friendslooked adorable as well. And it
(34:32):
was a Sunday and it's like justa perfect like Sunday type of
bag. They were going to likethey had just been to the flower
market or something. They hadthese like cute flowers on them.
But yeah, it was super surreal.
I remember having like said byeto them. I immediately like cold
everyone I told my parents and Iremember sending the photo to my
parents being like, they'regonna think this is my friend.
(34:56):
These are my friends. I need tomake it very clear that I bumped
into these people, and they werewearing my bag. But it's
actually so interesting.
Literally stranger danger. Andit's also like incentivized me
to like be outed about more likea simple walk to the post office
now is more exciting because Ikeep my eyes peeled being like,
(35:17):
maybe someone's wearing abaggie. And I also might ask my
boyfriend to do some likeaddress heat mapping, and see if
there's like any sort of likenetwork effects of, you know,
people in East London, maybe arewearing the bag and telling
their friends, but yeah, super,super exciting stuff.
Rhaime Kim (35:38):
Do you have a lot of customers? Like, is there a
typical profile of yourcustomer? From what you're
describing? Like? Maybe not, butare there a certain like, maybe
you have a lot of Londoncustomers, given where you're
physically based right now? Orlike, do you find that baggy
resonates a lot with like, GenZ? or certain, like age groups
(35:58):
or personalities? Like have younoticed any patterns with your
audience? And do you have atarget audience as of now,
Claire Zhong (36:05):
I will say that all my customers are usually
female. So that's one thing. Andthen I guess, like on Instagram,
anyone who's used like Instagramads, you can like have these
like targeting profiles. Andwhat I usually do is like 18, to
like 50 years old, both genders,UK, US, because it's just like
(36:29):
large markets, English speaking.
And then either I do like, aresimilar to your followers on
baggy, which obviously is justlike, reproduces itself. Or you
can choose like interests. Solike interests and fashion
accessories. And then usuallythat means that the people who
are seeing the ads, the rightpeople kind of find you. But
(36:50):
yeah, I do have a lot of Londonbased customers, they all kind
of coalesce around East London,which is interesting. I
personally live kind of inCentral East. But yeah, I think
there's a lot of like, boutiquelabels that originate from from
East London. And then I also getcustomers from like, the wider
UK, folk from Australia. Andthen a lot of people from the US
(37:14):
as well. And in the US, it'sreally like you get like the
bicoastal representation likeNew York, California, but then I
also have like a lot of likeFloridians from Utah randomly.
Lots of Southerners buying mybat. Yeah, people from Texas,
but then also like Mississippi,Boston, um, but then yeah, like,
(37:34):
I also have customers from, likeSingapore, and Saudi Arabia,
and, you know, everywhere inEurope. Like, it is, it's not
like I have big representationin each of these geographies.
But just like being able to saythat like you last week, I
posted a package to, you know,check. And then today I'm
(37:59):
posting, you know, the UK orderslike is, is just, yeah,
something that's quite, quiteamazing.
Rhaime Kim (38:07):
And I think that's the beauty of the internet. I
think it's we're so lucky toexist in a day and age where it
is honestly, so easy to, for me,this is my second ever episode.
But it was honestly very easy toget this going. And I think it's
so cool that we have all thesethings that make up setting like
the shop and the logistics,doing all of that stuff online.
(38:29):
Like there's so many kind ofpartners out there that make it
turn key. So that's really cool.
Do you like if you don't mind measking like, what's the general
size of your business? Like, howmany orders have you filled? How
big is your business right now?
Claire Zhong (38:47):
Yeah, so I think we have like order of like 100,
like hundreds or so ordershundreds or so customers as
well. And yeah, I think thatrepresents we, our growth has
been pretty stable over the pastyear or so. But you know, we've
(39:07):
not really departed or divorcedfrom like our initial product
line, we've had one product inseveral colorways we've just
launched kind of a similarproduct, which is like the baggy
flop. So yeah, I think that'skind of the general size of our
business right now. With prettystable grows. And to be honest,
(39:29):
in terms of investing more intothat growth, it'll be something
that I have to be quiteconsidered about just because
it's just myself. And, you know,I have a full time job. This is
something that I'm doing on theside. And I think, you know, all
the amazing reasons why Viy hasbeen so rewarding, you know, the
(39:52):
fact that it's taken on a lifeof its own, like I've been able
to see and react to the way thatour customers kind of wear baggy
and interpret baggy. Those areall the same brief as I think we
should be, like, I guess,cognizant and heed why kind of
like lots of grows, especiallyin kind of fashion businesses
(40:14):
can be something that you needto be aware of as well, just
because it can take on a life ofits own, you can lose like your
creative voice in the entireprocess. And that's something
that I'm here to not do. Norwill it be something that I'll
be able to contend with, justwith my capacity right now. But
yeah,
Rhaime Kim (40:31):
right now, you're essentially a one woman show, I
would imagine, and you have atailor, as well, who helps you
create the bags? What does yourgeneral like, kind of your
operational workflow look like?
Do you keep inventory? How doyou fulfill the orders? It
(40:52):
sounds like you are fillingthem, yourselves yourself and
shipping it?
Claire Zhong (40:58):
Yeah, it's pretty chaotic, to be honest with you.
And I think the kind of I, Ifollow a lot of kind of similar
size sellers on Depop, andsocial media as well. And I
think sometimes the illusionthat folk give is that they have
everything kind of in order,they have this like super
(41:18):
seamless workflow where they canfulfill everything and be super
streamlined with everything.
That's definitely not what it iswith me. Yeah, we have kind of
like ad hoc drops. So we kind ofproduce in very small
quantities, which I think isanother reason we haven't been
able to grow. Loads. Becausethese bags are handmade, the
(41:41):
tailor can make maybe one or twoa date. And they're obviously
not working full time on this atall. So we produce some very,
very small quantities, thefabric is deadstock, and overall
fabric. So actually, even if itis the same color, there could
be sometimes some variants justbased on what fabric we get. So
(42:03):
definitely produce in smallquantities, they get sent to me,
and I restock the inventory. AndI do these drops, which I mark
it on social media. And thenwhen they sell out, they sell
out. And then I fulfilled ordersmyself. I have like I print
labels if they're in the UK,otherwise, I go to the post
(42:23):
office, if they'reinternational, it's quite
manual, I literally write outall of the addresses on my own
definitely an easier way to dothat swab. And it's something
that I know it's something Iwant to definitely improve on.
Like I asked my boyfriend, I waslike, What is one thing you
would change about baggie? Andhe was like, the extremely
laborious way that you fulfillas well as your pocket? Yeah.
(42:46):
Because the pack? Yeah, becauseI do everything myself to keep
costs low. I just use prettybasic packaging, whereas I don't
know if you've ever shopped fromcertain small businesses, I
think what really kind of levelsthem up? Is that that like
beautiful packaging that end toend experience you get with like
the personalized No, like tissuepaper, all of that. So that's
(43:08):
something that yeah, 100% wouldtake our business to the next
level. But right now it's it'spretty chaotic and ad hoc, to be
honest,
Rhaime Kim (43:17):
but you make it work. And you still have clients
from all over the world. So butcan definitely see how like this
is I mean, it I don't know howyou get it done, you know, but
what are your current saleschannels? Are you on Depop? You
have an online shop, where areyou listed? And where do you
(43:40):
seem to get the most orders. So
Claire Zhong (43:43):
I sell everything on my website by Guillain
newgarden.com. Previously, I wasselling on a sauce marketplace
Depop as well as Etsy. Cool, butI mean, because of like the
margins that they take, I justkind of deprioritize those
channels. But it's a great way Ithink to kind of get started and
(44:05):
get your product out there.
Where you know, there's going tobe like an audience, a cohort of
buyers who liked kind of similaritems. So 100% think that those
are great channels that helpedme, I'm sure kind of get started
and build up a customer base,especially with like the number
of followers I had on Depop atthe time, but right now I sell
(44:28):
mainly through my website and Ido my marketing mainly through
Instagram. I did Tik Tok beforeas well, but it's kind of high
lift to be honest. Yeah, mainlyjust
Rhaime Kim (44:43):
what have been like some of the most challenging
aspects of your business.
Claire Zhong (44:50):
So I think at the beginning there was I was seeing
absolutely nothing like it onthe market and that was
challenging because I was like,Is this even? Cute? Is this even
it pretty, like I said, it's notsomething that's my style. And I
felt this pressure to alwayswear my bag. I love bugs in
general, but I was wearing mybag with everything, even with
(45:11):
outfits that didn't go. So Ithink from like, yeah, yeah,
like a creative processperspective, that was
challenging, because it's hardto kind of build confidence at
the beginning, when literallyeverything that you're seeing on
the market are these. And inhindsight, you know, this is the
whole thing with fashion, right,like things look dated really
quickly. But at the time, it wasall of these tiny baguette bags.
(45:37):
And you've even now, I thinkpeople are adopting these tiny
kind of snakeskin PVC stylestructured bags. Whereas I think
I was on like, a completelydifferent kind of direction. But
I did have like, my styleinspiration, like Molly Goddard,
Chet Lowe and and the stuff thatthey were doing, really, for me
(46:00):
felt like it was artful andraise the bar. So that was one
of the challenges. Thatchallenges evolved a little bit.
Now, with kind of brands copyingyour styles, I think this is
something that small businessesuniversally deal with were
bigger labels, AliExpress, so onand so forth, will refer to
(46:20):
small businesses designs, andsell them at much lower price
points. With me, I didn't reallyhave kind of like AliExpress, or
any of that. But there was likea similar retailer based in
Australia, which ripped off bydesign, you know, the dimensions
were exactly the same. I spokeat length about the dimensions
(46:43):
of our bag being really big, andit just seemed a little bit too
serendipitous for it to be, youknow, a coincidence. And
actually, it was an interestingexperience, where when we
confronted this retailer aboutit, they blocked not only
myself, but all of my followerson Instagram. And, yeah, so that
(47:05):
was for me, like beyondadmission of guilt. And then,
only when one of my followerswho has worked with this brand
before reached out that theykind of make claims about seeing
this design elsewhere in Japan.
But anyways, I kind of let thatdrop as Yeah, I know. And I was
like, first of all, even if itwas from Japan, you shouldn't
(47:26):
have copied it. And second ofall, if that's the case, then
show me the pictures, you know.
So that's a challenge. It'snearly like now that ruffles are
becoming all the trend like yousee it just with fancy club, the
kind of rise of big scrunchiescoquette cottage and ballet
(47:48):
styles. I want to kind of thinkthat it's like the world
catching up with these big, moreorganic, more ethereal styles,
as opposed to just beingserendipitous. And I think us
having conviction in that designhas been super great. But then
(48:10):
it does mean that there aregoing to be a lot of designs
that are similar to yours orderivative of yours. And being
able to stay authentic and havea distinct USP, and I guess
value proposition in light ofthat, and be truly
differentiating is is, I guess,a new challenge that we need to
contend contend with.
Rhaime Kim (48:30):
I mean, they say like, imitation is the biggest
compliment or whatever. But Ithink when you're in that
moment, it's a must have beenreally, like really stressful
and frustrating. So yeah, it's,you know, it's pretty awful.
Honestly, I have seen it I have,I know an artist, and I think
her work was also copied byanother artist. And it sounded
(48:57):
like, really, I don't know, Ijust feel like I feel horrible
if I were in that position. Soit sucks that you went through
that. What advice would you giveyourself when you were getting
started on this?
Claire Zhong (49:11):
I think I always think back to the moment where I
started baggy, you know, madethat first prototype, and I
think it was very arbitrary. Itcould have gone either way. I
could have just stuck with theNF T's I could have not pursued
the more analog route. I thinkthe advice I would probably give
(49:33):
myself is you always surpriseyourself. And you might be
surprised by the sort of stylesthat you like, and the art that
you create. And also let yourcustomers and I guess let the
market surprise you as well withhow they interpret and reproduce
(49:57):
your your designs. Um, I thinkit's the advice I would give
anyone, I guess creating theirown product, or starting their
own thing. It's kind of harkenback to what I said at the
beginning. There's so much onusto have that very, very coherent
(50:18):
plan a narrative when when youstart something, and I think
that comes from theproliferation of so much content
around being a founder, raisingmoney, pitch decks, you know,
it's all about being supercogent, and you know, the
elevator pitch. And sometimeswhen people think that they have
something that's a little bitmore like in Kuwait, and, you
(50:40):
know, rudimentary, unformed, itreally shakes your confidence,
but it's going back to thatreliance on your intuition. And
trust in your gut, that you havesomething, you know, valuable to
say and valuable to create. AndI think it's actually done us a
disservice, you know, this overphilosophizing, and over
(51:02):
intellectualizing of what itmeans to be a founder and what
it means to be a creator. Itreally isn't so glamorous. And,
you know, in product management,we have this idea of an MVP. And
it really is true, like, what isthe minimum viable version of
what you're trying to create,that you still think represents
(51:22):
what you want to do, but is solow lift, that you can get it
out to the market, and have themarket give you you know, the
reactions and the insights andthe knowledge you need to evolve
that into something that peoplecontinue to love. And it's
exciting, you know, it'll beexciting. It's more exciting
(51:42):
than scary for me to be able tosee, you know, whether or not
folk love what, what you create.
So I think that really is theadvice that I would give myself
and anyone else who is who istrying to start something,
right, like don't
Rhaime Kim (51:57):
get too mentally bogged down and focus on doing
and creating what you love.
You're a senior product managerat D pop. Is it challenging?
juggling your work with baggy?
And do you see any? I guess youtalked about MVPs the concept of
(52:18):
that helping you charge forwardwith baggy? Is there anything
you've learned through your workand product that's helped you
with baggy?
Claire Zhong (52:26):
Honestly, it's it's not that difficult juggling
my job and baggy, like even whenI was working in consulting, I
found the time to work on, youknow, the accessories business
that I was working on. But Ithink yeah, reflecting on your
question, I think a lot of stuffabout being a product manager
(52:47):
has helped me be, you know, agood CEO and founder of of baggy
as well. Not only from like amethodology perspective, but
also just in, I guess this ideaof like product market fit about
thinking about user needs, it'sobviously a little bit
different, because the problemsthat you're trying to solve with
(53:10):
digital interfaces and apps withmillions and millions of
customers and traffic are goingto be different than creating a
product that people seem to loveand are able to appreciate,
regardless of having this liketrue user need. So definitely
from like, being a founder, andbeing your own, like mini CEO,
(53:31):
which is I guess what all PMSare, that's definitely helped.
And then obviously, the workingin a fashion tech company, and
creative marketplace, there arenatural synergies as well, what
we do at Depop is we try tooptimize our product experience
to convert people and optimizesales that's very similar to
(53:51):
what I do on my ecommerceplatform. So, you know, I've
been able to run experiments onmy product page and run email
campaigns, and play around withproduct listings and the way
that they show and that that's,that's very much, you know,
transferable from the day to dayof what I do at Depop. So I'm
very lucky.
Rhaime Kim (54:11):
Yeah, that's so cool. I guess there are like
things you must observe becauseyou have to understand your
customer who are other businessowners like you with brands to
be a great product manager atDepop. So I can see how that
ends up actually fueling yourknowledge and creating baggy.
What's next for baggy? Youmentioned that there's original
(54:35):
bag there was also a one with aflap. Are you interested in
creating completely differenttypes of bags or focus on a
different category of products?
Or do you think with yourcurrent designs, it's something
that you want to continue makingthat iconic, just baggy bag.
Claire Zhong (54:55):
So we just launched the baggy flat bag
which as you mentioned how is aflop to kind of keep your
belongings secure with ouriconic design. I think in terms
of products, I think we'reinstead of kind of expanding our
product lines, I might actuallyrefine it and take a step back
(55:16):
and see, you know, we've gotinfinity colors, you know, and
that's just, you know, a taxconsequence of bias, exactly a
consequence of bias to action isthat you end up with a lot of
products. And, you know, I I'msure you're kind of familiar
with this idea of tech debt,when you're working in an
experimentation drivenenvironment, you kind of
(55:36):
accumulate layers and layers ofcode that has just been added.
So I think the next step for meis kind of taking a step back,
trying to refine ourproposition, whether that be
cutting out some of our productlines to kind of, you know,
return to the idea of thisminimalist concept of having one
iconic style in a few colors. Ithink that will be one thing
(55:58):
that I do, I will try to thinkabout my end to end fulfillment
and that kind of packagingexperience in a way that's still
sustainable, but in a way that'sconsidered and, you know, gives
that like delightful experiencefor the end customer. And then,
yeah, I think at the outset ofthe call, I talked about NF T's
(56:19):
web three, this idea of digitalart and how that was super
endemic to, you know, ourinitiation as a as a company.
And as a brand. I always thinkabout, you know, the content I
create for baggy, whether thatbe you know, the images I create
for the product page, or tiktoksor just permuting the content
(56:40):
that the UGC that that arisesfrom all of these baggy girls
that we have. I'm trying to finda way to kind of weave that back
into our our initial narrativeof being a web three boutique.
Is there anything about webthree, and this idea of like
minting and tokenizing art thatwe can leverage, I'm still
(57:00):
mulling over that one. But as Imentioned, you know, web three
and crypto blockchainspecifically is something I
continue to want to raiseawareness of in these like women
and underrepresented minoritygroups. So having this like
launch following and community.
Yeah, maybe maybe that'ssomething that that we think
(57:22):
about. But to be honest, no firmplans just yet.
Rhaime Kim (57:26):
Where can we find baggy? And how can the audience
help you?
Claire Zhong (57:31):
Yeah, so you can find us on Instagram at baggy,
baggy dot London, and ourwebsite is baggy. london.com.
And I can get you guys a code aswell. We can do entrepreneurial
15 for 15% off. But otherwise,honestly, I think, you know,
it's great what you're doingcapturing the stories of
(57:53):
founders in all shapes andsizes. And yeah, it just it's
it's a privilege to be able totell my story to your your
following into your audience.
Welcome. Check us out. And yeah,thanks for having me.
Rhaime Kim (58:07):
Yeah, thanks so much, Claire. So for the
audience, go to baggy. Is itbaggy?
Claire Zhong (58:13):
london.com? Yes, by the london.com
Rhaime Kim (58:17):
go to baggy london.com It's baggy with a Y
and entrepreneurial 15. We'llget you 15% off. Claire, thank
you so much. I have been wantingto interview you and talk to
across your different venturesacross the years I've been like
I want to interview about thisand this and now it's baggy and
(58:39):
I am so grateful for your time.
So thanks so much Claire.
Claire Zhong is the founder of Baggy, which is a
London-based brand that makesNFT and real handsewn bags.
Claire and I met at PhillipsAcademy Andover, a boarding
school in Massachusetts, wherewe were the best of friends. So,
Claire, I've been wanting to dothis for a long time. And in my
mind, you're always like thefirst person I interviewed. So
(00:21):
I'm so happy you're here.
Claire Zhong (00:23):
Thanks for having me. I'm so pleased that you've
taken the leap withEntrepreneurial as well, I know
that this is something thatyou've wanted to do to kind of
capture the stories of founders.
So thanks for having me on.
Rhaime Kim (00:36):
One of my memories of you, when we were in high
school, was you falling asleepwith a physics textbook in your
arms in my little chair in myroom. You were super creative
back then. I feel like with yourfull time job, as a product
manager at Depop, and withBaggy, you've kind of found your
(01:00):
tech and like art niche.
Claire Zhong (01:04):
It was a journey getting here. I definitely
didn't think that there wasgoing to be a role in the real
world that kind of satisfied meand satiated me from both like a
tech perspective and art andfashion perspective. But I
really think I've found it. Andluckily, it's something that has
(01:24):
a lot of synergies with my sidepassion projects as well. So
absolutely. You know, it's beena long journey here, but I think
I'm in a happy place right nowwith with where I am.
Rhaime Kim (01:36):
Yeah. Well, tell me about how you got started with
Baggy. When did you get startedand how did the idea come about?
Claire Zhong (01:46):
I've always wanted to create a fashion product.
Over COVID, I learned how to sewI think like a lot of other
folk, I've been selling on Depopfor a while. I think since
university I sold thrifteditems, and secondhand on Depop.
I really enjoyed the styling,the packaging -- the entire
(02:07):
process of creating a brand, andcreating styled items that folk
enjoy. So over COVID, I reallytook that to the next level by
creating handsewn accessorieslike bandanas and scrunchies.
And even little denim bags. Ithink a lot of people were doing
that at the time. And then inlate 2021, I took the next step
(02:30):
to creating an NFT inspiredfashion boutique, Baggy London,
where we sell kind of rufflehandbags. As you kind of
mentioned, we have both an NFTside of the business as well as
an analog real humbug side ofthe business. And the kind of
ladder is where I'm focusingmost of my energy right now.
Rhaime Kim (02:52):
I feel like fashion and creativity like all that
stuff has always been a part ofyour interest. So I'm curious,
when did you first have the ideaof Baggy? And did that start
with like a
Claire Zhong (03:03):
sketch? Of course.
So we started back in the end of2021. And, you know, it's an
interesting story, because ifyou cast your mind back to that
time, it was a time where NF T'swere all the rage, but I've long
had a fascination with kind ofweb three and crypto. I worked
(03:24):
in a blockchain startupincubator in 2016. And my role
at the time was specifically inkind of rallying and connecting
founders who are women andunderrepresented minorities in
blockchain and crypto, as wellas other emerging tech like AR
and VR as well. Back in 2021,and even today, if you took a
(03:44):
look at open sea or any otherNFT marketplace, it was chock
full of traditionally malesubjects and collectibles. You
know, gaming board a yacht club.
I don't know if you've had alook at that. And you know, like
you said, I've always been superinterested in are super
creative. And with NF T's beingheralded as the intersection
(04:05):
between tech and art, I wasexpecting to see art that
obviously resonated with me, andthat I loved as well. But yeah,
I wasn't really seeing anythingthat was nuanced, inspiring or
appealing. I don't know if youremember or no like the metal
Birkin series. But these werelike the first NF T's that
(04:27):
showed me like the transcendentpossibilities that digital art
hard. Just for those who don'tknow, the metal Birkins was
created by a digital artist andthey kind of created a series of
NFT handbags inspired by theBirkin. But they were really
like cool and beautiful. And itwas, you know, quite fitting
(04:48):
because if you think aboutluxury handbags, their value is
definitely super transcendentand symbolic, more than the sum
of its parts just like NF T'sand yeah, these images they were
so Super exciting and artful.
There were all these bags thatwere colorful, textured,
structural, and conceptual,which really inspired me to
create my own series of metalhandbags under the baggy leather
(05:12):
name. And yeah, baggies,founding mission statement was
to raise the profile andaccessibility of web three, and
crypto and women by bridging thereal life world of fashion and
shopping with the more nebulous,intimidating world of web three.
And to answer your question,baggy London, the analog Boggs
was the first kind of weproduction ized, one of our more
(05:37):
kind of realistic designs, andwe actually funded that
production through one of ourNFT sales. And the reason why
we're kind of a web three cryptoBoutique is because our fashion
kind of story and origin issuper inspired by like, the
bigger, more transcendentstructural shapes that digital
art really enables. So we hadthese, like Super Bowl signs
(06:00):
that were, you know, really madepossible by like cutting
collaging and curating imageryin a kind of more digital art
way. So yeah, our first designwas an NFT. That was production
ized. Yeah,
Rhaime Kim (06:13):
I didn't know that baggies, actual for sale was the
NFT concept. So I wonder if in away, you felt like the sale of
the NFT bag meant that the reallife design would also do well?
Or for you was it just like thepracticality of it is easier to
(06:33):
generate a digital version, andthen to production realize it is
a little bit of a differentproblem?
Claire Zhong (06:40):
Yeah, I think you make a good point there. I think
the reason why I've always loveddigital art. And I guess just
like manipulation of images isbecause it's so accessible. And
I think when you're like avisual person, being able to
make possible and make realthings that are just in your
head, with all these shortcutsthat are available to you, you
(07:01):
know, there are so many, youknow, references that we can
derive from so many imagery, somuch imagery that we can
literally just copy and paste inthis, you know, new digital
landscape that we exist in thatit was so much easier for me to
be able to bring to lifesomething through digital means.
(07:22):
But then obviously marrying thatwith my love for style and my
love for fashion and my penchantfor sewing, it kind of just made
sense that now I had you know,800 USD from the sale of an NFT
this was more than enough tofind, or first. I know, and you
know, having hustled and madereal bags, over COVID. And each
(07:45):
bag would take me like three orfour hours to make. And I would
make what like $25 from that. Iwas like I actually didn't want
to do the analog side anymore. Iwas like, let's just keep making
NF T's. But then, you know,well, I wanted to wear these
bags. I wanted my friends towear these bags. Yeah. So that's
why we progressed with the reallife prototype.
Rhaime Kim (08:06):
So you actually so the first bags. Yeah. Is Did you
hand sew them? Do you have asewing machine? Like how did
that work?
Claire Zhong (08:17):
Yeah, good question. So I have a sewing
machine. And like I said, likeover COVID I made like, quite
simple things like bandanasscrunchies. And then also these
like bugs that were a bit shitbecause they didn't have
lighting but I sold themanyways. And I said it took me
three or four hours to makethem. But yeah, of course bug
was made on a sewing machine onlike a brother sewing machine.
(08:41):
It was a lot smaller than thecurrent prototype. Like think
like the Lady Dior like thesmallest size, and it was
actually a top handle bag. Thebag now is actually a lot
bigger. It's like akin to likean A five size and it has more
like a shoulder strap. But yeah,that was that was the first
(09:02):
design that I made.
Rhaime Kim (09:05):
How did you learn how to sew? Did you watch like
YouTube videos or learn it fromsomebody in person?
Claire Zhong (09:13):
Yeah, so I I don't think I like learn how to sew
properly. I'm quite like animpatient person, you know, a
bit of a through line from likedigital art stuff. It's so easy
to take shortcuts, like Imentioned on really quickly
production is something that'sreal and tangible. Sewing is not
(09:35):
like that poultry is not likethat. So I learned how to use a
sewing machine like the basicsof how to thread the needle, how
to get it going, but definitelydidn't like really kind of learn
how to like cut patterns,understand like different
textures and different materialsproperly. Which causes you a lot
(09:57):
of headaches for everyone who'sa seamstress or a dress. Make
her out there, you'll know. Butyeah, it was over COVID I was at
my boyfriend's mom's house. Andshe had a sewing machine. So I
learned how to sew from her andmyself and my boyfriend sister
would work on creating all ofthese accessories to be sold on
Depop. So yeah, that's where mysewing experience comes from.
Rhaime Kim (10:19):
This is like the the nice feminine version of
creating like a software startupin a garage. I guess it's like,
you know, you your boyfriend'smom and your boyfriend, sister?
I think that's really cute. Didyou point of like hands of hand
crafting those first few bags?
Did you have a pet pattern thatwas formally drawn out? I don't
(10:43):
really know how the planning ofthose things like work? Or did
you have a visual representationof what the final product would
look like?
Claire Zhong (10:53):
Yeah, um, what I did was I created like a pattern
through just cardboard. So Iphysically kind of like built
out like, imagine like a 3dmodel, I built out like a body
of the bag. And then basically,like, the key signature of the
bog is like the ruffle on theshoulder strap. So you have to
(11:17):
kind of sew that against the,the handles, so you can't really
kind of emulate that with withcardstock. But that's kind of
how I started it. But toactually get them productionize,
I, my mom actually found atailor. And we still use them
today to make all of our bugs, Isent her the prototype, and my
mom is an absolute superstar.
(11:38):
She's very similar to me, in thesense that she gets things done
super quickly. So I sent it toher and she immediately like the
first line of samplesproductionize. And it was so
amazing for, you know, myselfbeing the impatient person that
I am to kind of see everythingcome to fruition so quickly. But
(11:58):
you know, when I first got thebags back, they were actually a
lot bigger than I thought theywere going to be. And it was
quite jarring. If you cast yourmind back, if anyone, like small
baguette bags, like we're allthe rage news structured mini
bag, it was all about like y2k,90s tiny bags, and I've just got
(12:22):
these huge bags, like fuck offbags that were not called handle
bags, which what was what Iimagined they were huge. And
actually, it's funny because itwas so unlike anything that was
on the market at the time, thatit really like destabilize, like
my entire idea for what bikiewas. And it was really Scarah.
(12:46):
But I'm really glad that westuck to that original
dimension, because the timeshave caught up with and now it's
all about these big organicsilhouettes. And they're
colorful as well. And I think itreally like edifies our kind of
like foundational ethos of beingbig, being colorful taking up
(13:08):
space. Like why do you have tohave a tiny ass bag that doesn't
fit anything? You want a bagthat really makes a statement?
Exactly. And I'm just so gladthat we stuck with that, even
though at the time it was quitejarring.
Rhaime Kim (13:21):
Okay, wait. So you're saying that the
interpretation of the tailor wasto create bags that were
slightly bigger because you werefirst envisioning like a much
smaller baguette kind of trendybag, but you actually ended up
sticking with the larger design.
Is that right?
Claire Zhong (13:38):
Yes. So I think the prototype was a lot smaller,
it was like a top handle bag.
But the depths of the actualbody meant that you couldn't
actually put anything in it. SoI think maybe for the tailor is
also easier to work with justlike bigger dimensions as well.
So it ended up being a lotbigger, but because they're so
colorful, it it felt really bigand it was like finger them and
(14:06):
it's like ruffled so it's likevery voluminous but we stuck
with I think we went with thatinterpretation of it. And it's
so interesting how the bug getsinterpreted from like its
digital form and then freeinterpreted to its analog form
and then reinterpreted throughsomebody else's eyes and this is
a through line that you know I Isee in bodies evolution as well
(14:30):
and power customers wear anddumb the bags. So it's just
yeah, super cool and superexciting to have the bag go
through those evolutions.
Rhaime Kim (14:41):
Yeah, and it really changed and I think something
that I've noticed about youClaire is like you're always
working on different things. AndI think a lot of people say hey,
I have this idea in the back ofmy mind or don't you think this
would be a good idea? Andthey're honestly good ideas. But
I feel like you're always likeactually doing stuff so it It's
cool to see that like youmentioned, you're impatient, I
(15:02):
guess, you can start with NF T'sand like, you know, having
digital products, but then youjust keep on changing as new
inputs and new situations arise,which is, like really cool. You
said that you're like impatient.
And I feel like that's somethingthat's also something I'm trying
to grapple with. But do youthink that that helps in your
(15:25):
creation process? Or is thatsomething you're actively
working on? Like, as you growthe business, you have to become
more patient,
Claire Zhong (15:34):
I think I've done a lot of work to kind of harness
impatience into a virtue. So Ithink, being super self aware, I
think a lot of women kind ofover philosophize or pathologize
the way that they are. Andthat's definitely one of our
strengths, because we're superconsiderate and self aware. But
then sometimes that can workagainst us. And I think going
(15:57):
back to your first point aboutlots of people always talk about
wanting to start something, orthey always have these great
ideas, or they kind of talk itto death. I think it's because
we over index on wanting to havea super coherent kind of plan of
action, as well as like anarrative for what you're doing,
(16:18):
to make it worth doing. Anddefinitely was something that we
observed in baggy as well, like,I had this super lofty goal at
the basic beginning of baggy tosay, you know, what I want to do
is I want to raise awareness ofcrypto and web three, through
baggy. Because I've seen all ofthese, like traditionally male
(16:38):
subjects, I want to proliferateand make, you know, raise the
profile of female subjects ortraditionally morpheme feminine
subjects like fashion andshopping and, and help women
find the sort of art that they'dlike to see in web three. And I
really kind of overintellectualized and, you know,
really tried to narrative eyesthat that side of the business.
(17:02):
But you know, what, like NFT andweb three, it's hard to crack,
it's hard to sell things on thetheory of network, and
especially with what we've seenwith web three, even though it's
something that I definitely wantto revisit in the future, it's
taken me on this journey, whereI just really enjoy making these
bugs and really enjoy seeingthem on my customers. And it's,
(17:24):
it's helped me kind of pivot andlearn from having that product
out to the market. And then Ireally feel like I have reached
product market fit withsomething that is completely
divorced from like the initialgenealogy of I guess what, what
we're trying to do? To answeryour question, I think, you
know, I've really seen the valueof my impatience. You know, even
(17:48):
though I did a lot of work tomake sure that I had a really
coherent story. I'm tooimpatient, be a perfectionist,
I'm too impatient to Yeah, Ijust get things out there, I
create content, I did so muchsocial media activation at the
beginning, even though it gotabsolutely no engagement. But it
was just something that I keptwanting to do. So that's
(18:10):
definitely a trait that's helpedme out throughout throughout the
course of throughout the course,of boggy. And I hope will
continue to be endemic to theway that I am and the way that I
kind of go about beingenterprising and building
ventures in the future as well.
Rhaime Kim (18:25):
Yeah, definitely.
Because I think the easiest wayto learn is by doing right,
there's so much content on theinternet about you can learn how
to do so many different things.
But if you're just always atthat stage of planning and
planning, it's like, trust me,it's like the fastest way you'll
learn is just by your ownmistakes and your own little,
you know, realizations about howto do things the best way. So,
(18:50):
you mentioned that you got yourfirst bags from the tailor. And
I would imagine that your familywas based in Shanghai then is a
tailor, you know, in in Shanghaiand sending the goods between
China and where you are in theUK in London, was there several
(19:11):
weeks in between? And what didthat back and forth process
initially look like? From whenyou share the designs with the
tailor, maybe the time period ittook until when you were you
actually had the final productand were able to start selling
them online? It actually wasn'tvery
Claire Zhong (19:29):
long at all. And we have WeChat so I sent my mom
the designs and she really islike the backbone of the
business. And when I said thatthings get reinterpreted. I
think she probably interpretedthe designs and you know,
communicated that with thetailor in the way that she does.
So I think I I told her, I senther the bag and went to sleep
(19:54):
and then the next morning shehad them done. They were photos
and my
Rhaime Kim (19:58):
WeChat bye That is and so satisfying. But you did
you know, they were that bigwhen you got the photos?
Claire Zhong (20:08):
No. And also just a bit shocking as well. It's
like, it's literally like youhad a dream. And it just
happened. Literally, but yeah,literally that. So yeah, I went
to went to bed woke up saw thephotos, and then it took maybe
like two weeks for the bugs toget to me. But then I'm trying
(20:28):
to remember what it was likebecause I obviously had to like
set up my website. I think wehad Instagram at the time, take
product photos. See this is anexample of my impatience as
well. The product photos thatyou see to this day, are not
actually like product photos Itook of the bags, when they got
(20:48):
to me like with like studiolighting, they were the photos
that my mom took up the bogusing her like shitty android
phone
Rhaime Kim (20:58):
sent over. I had no idea.
Claire Zhong (21:02):
You're not even high quality photos. But I
remember just taking thosephotos and they had like all the
shit in the background of, youknow, just like the Taylor's
work room. I just took thoseimages, I cut the background
out. And I just like chucked iton some like, random, like,
picture on my camera roll. And Iwas like, Oh, that's good
enough. And those are the sameimages that are like used and
(21:25):
circulated and reproduced forbaggy today, we have like 1.4
million, like read pins onPinterest on some of these
images. So it really does showthat cool. That's yeah, there's
no, there's no correlationbetween how much effort you put
into something. Andserendipitously, you know how
much people resonate with them?
Rhaime Kim (21:47):
Yeah, and that's a really interesting, like, kind
of conclusion you made there.
Because I mean, I guess we allonly have 24 hours in a day. And
so it's like, how did thingscatch on like, like you said,
sometimes it's unexpected. It'sprobably like a concept that
like, resonates with somebody,not necessarily about the
technical quality of thephotographs and stuff. But I
honestly would have neverguessed. So both your mom, maybe
(22:11):
she's a good photographer, butyou're probably also good, like,
editor.
Claire Zhong (22:15):
Yeah, I think as product managers, you always
learn to, you know, to kind ofdiscern patterns in the things
that you're doing, you know,every experiment that you've run
is, is like, you're testinghypotheses, and you're iterating
with the learnings from thosehypotheses towards like, an end
goal. And you have this likestrategic direction that you're
(22:36):
slowly codifying through all ofyour learnings. And generally,
there are trends and things areillogical, sometimes things are
random. But when it comes tolike, the visual medium, and
with fashion, there are trendsthere as well. But I do think
that it is generally like quiterandom, like when I've run
Instagram ads, like there reallyis no rhyme or reason with what
(22:59):
sort of imagery, what sort ofcomposition and what sort of,
yeah, just like style ofphotography works well and
resonates with Yeah, so I dothink that like bias to action
helps in those scenarios.
Because as long as it's stuffthat you're happy creating, and
it's stuff that you're you feelis authentic to you, you're
gonna enjoy doing it. And beingable to kind of propagate that
(23:24):
to a wider audience will justgive you a higher chance of
success in terms of Yeah, likegetting your product out there.
Rhaime Kim (23:34):
I don't know if you know your personality thing you
but are you like I likeintuitive or whatever?
Intuition. Is it?
Claire Zhong (23:41):
What's the opposite of what is the opposite
of intuitive one? I think I amthough, I'm 100% an intuitive
person.
Rhaime Kim (23:51):
Yeah, that's what it sounds like. Because I love
advice like that. Because, Imean, even for me with this
podcast, I just want to create,you know, and I try to do my
studying and listen to otherpeople's stuff. I think it's
important to learn about otherpeople's lessons because they
can save you time. Butultimately, if you're really
(24:13):
trying to kind of stampsomething that somebody else
did, my belief is that it's notgoing to work as well as it had
for that person because theyfigured it out and they have
some kind of special sauce. Soit's cool to hear that, you
know, you're just kind ofputting things out there that
you like, and then it's just agame of experimentation. Really,
(24:33):
you don't always know what'sgonna
Claire Zhong (24:35):
hit for sure. But I think the difference perhaps,
is, you know, it's so importantthat and this is something I've
learned and I'm sure you have aswell like you said, this is
something you've always wantedto do even if no one listens,
you know you're gettingsomething out of it. You're
getting to hear all of thesepeople's stories and it's just
(24:56):
something that you're passionateabout. Similarly with with baggy
like being able to create theselike visual stories on kind of
visual mediums. And a way ofkind of bringing the product to
life is something I'm going toenjoy doing, regardless of who's
liking or buying my bags. And Ithink kind of, you know, it
really comes down to like, whyyou're doing something, if
(25:18):
you're doing something becauseyou think that you're gonna go
viral, or you're you're going tohit the jackpot or get lucky,
then that's the wrong reason todo it. Because statistically,
that's not going to happen. Andit's not happened for me either.
You know, there wasn't that ahamoment, there was no viral
moment for me, I never wentviral. And you know, it's slow
(25:39):
and steady, it's not glamorous.
So if you don't enjoy thatprocess, then you're not going
to, you're it's not going toendure, and you're not going to
be around in x months time. So Ireally think that like finding
that thing that reallyrepresents not only like the
outcome and output, but youknow, a means of creating that
(26:01):
really, you really enjoy it issuper, super important. What's
been the,
Rhaime Kim (26:06):
what was it like to have your first analog bag sale?
So your physical bag,
Claire Zhong (26:13):
so I kind of mentioned that it took like one
day for the bag to actually comeinto fruition? Which, yeah, but
then to get my first sale, thatwas definitely longer. I think
it might have been actuallylike, a few weeks. And that was
super challenging and superdiscouraging. And it does kind
of put into question here. Like,there are folks out there who
(26:35):
put years and years of r&d intocreating things, people who went
to fashion school, people whoare so learned about, you know,
fashion, fashion houses,creative directors over the
years for all of these massivefashion houses, and it does just
knock your confidence in termsof flow, there's a reason that
so much time and effort goesinto it. Nobody is buying my
(26:57):
Boggs, you know. And yeah, Iremember literally sitting in
front of the TV, and like, beinglike to my boyfriend, like I've
got no sales. And then like thenext hour being like, I've
gotten no sales and he's likeshut up. And it was really
discouraging, because the bagwas so different. So unlike
anything on the market, I reallyhad no evidence to suggest that
(27:18):
I would make even one sale. Youknow, obviously I had experience
selling other things likevintage or thrifted clothes, but
the very nature of intentionthrifted clothes is that they've
been worn before you have thesocial that somebody's worn
before. And even the handmadeaccessories I made, you know,
they were pretty derivative ofother things that you saw on the
(27:38):
market. And that's what makesthem I guess, like purchasable
sellable. So this felt a lotmore risky, a lot more personal.
But yeah, my approach really waslike quantity over quality at
the time. Lots of social media,lots of content. My boyfriend
sister told me that my videosare super, too good millennials.
(27:59):
So we had to pivot from that aswell. But then eventually, my
first sale was actually not froma friend it was from just a
random person. So that was supershocking. Oh my god. Yeah. And
so real, super surreal. Iremember like looking up their
name on social media being like,they must be a freak. And no,
(28:20):
they were just a normal, fashionloving girl. And that was
honestly so exciting. And soamazing. And then I started
getting some sales from myfriends as well, which is
obviously great. And then Ithink, yeah, like they were
them, their friends, ask themwhere they get that from, and
then the cycle kind of continuesfrom there.
Rhaime Kim (28:39):
Because it's so iconic, right? Like your bags, I
guess you're saying thatactually the Taylor's
interpretation, your mom's maybe of the bag being much bigger.
And because it has a pop ofcolor and the ruffle, it's very
loud. Like, it's a statementpiece. If somebody's wearing it.
I feel like I could totally seesomebody being like, Oh, where'd
you get that from? Like, youknow, especially if it's like
the hot pink color.
Claire Zhong (29:00):
Yeah, and it kind of a lot of my friends told me
initially, like, you know, thisis the only thing that I wear,
that gets me a lot ofcompliments. And I was
reflecting on that. And I waslike, it doesn't really mean
necessarily that they love it.
You know, when somebody justwears something that's a little
bit out there, you haven't evenhad the time to decide whether
or not you like it or you don'tlike it, you're going to comment
(29:22):
on it and you're just going tonaturally what you're gonna say
is like, I like that, but then Ithink that's kind of what's
exciting and fun about fashion.
Anyways, like you don't need toimmediately like like something
or make that decision. It justneeds to be memorable. And then
with times and with with Yeah,just like the times catching on
(29:43):
and with all of the differentcultural symbols that kind of
evolve, people will like it andlearn to love it. And I think
that actually is what makescertain fashion pieces more
iconic and more enduring. Yeah,so So yeah, I guess my takeaway
from that is like, people don'tneed to like it immediately. But
(30:06):
the fact that it's memorable, Ithink has really made beckylyn
than the success that it hasbeen to date.
Rhaime Kim (30:12):
Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, what you're
saying about that it's likeBirkenstocks or crocs. It's like
you first look at it. And you'relike, yes. kind of shocking. But
then you got it. Yeah. Or evenjust when this trends change,
you're like, Oh, thosesunglasses look weird. I think
it's a little bit extra. Andthen you keep looking at it. And
you're like, you know what, Ikind of want it now. So yeah, I
(30:35):
guess? Yeah, yeah, it's cool. Ithink because your bags are such
a statement piece. I guess theyend up marketing themselves.
Claire Zhong (30:44):
Yeah, I think I agree with you. I love the
marketing side of things.
Predominantly, because theymarket themselves, like, like
you said, and, you know, I wasgonna say earlier to your point
about Crocs or sunglasses. Iwork at Depop we say this thing
(31:04):
where style is a function ofclothes, and the people that
wear them, I want to add tothat, as well. It's probably a
function of the uploads thepeople as well as the time and
the zeitgeist that they existwithin. And I think that's so
what's so wonderful even withwhat I've observed. Baaghi is
like the constant is like thebag we've only had one style,
(31:26):
which is also something that I'msuper proud of, because you
know, with the cultivation ofmicro trends and sustainability
in fashion, you really don'twant to be feeding into that.
But I guess when you crossclothes and people and time what
you get is this like abundantreflection of clothes and items
being styled and worn again andagain, each time reproducing and
(31:49):
being you know, derivative ofsymbols that exists within the
time. But then each time thewearer and the person kind of
adds like their unique essenceto it. And it's what I love
about this whole journey withbaggy as well. It's what makes
fashion like not obvious. When Istarted this brand, you know
where this colorful, roughlybog, you immediately think more
(32:12):
like a cottage coquette vibe,you know, and that's not really
my style, you know, mean? Likethis maximalist vibe, and that's
definitely direction thatenvisioned the brand taking on
in absence of any of the girlsor people wearing them. But then
over time, even over these pastlike two or so years, I've seen
(32:33):
girls wear the bags and so manydifferent styles like
minimalist, grungy, moreromantic, more scandium
interesting, you know, likeHawaii, stylings, girls like
putting claw clips and bows andeven like low of a brooches on
them. And obviously, we have allof these colors and styles
beyond categorization that I'msure you know what we'll
(32:55):
continue to see. And yeah,that's what makes this whole,
like seeing bags on customers.
Super exciting. And even if thebag itself doesn't really change
the context within which itexists. And the fact that style
is this amazing function ofbaggy, but then also baggy
(33:16):
girls, is actually what justmakes all of this super, super
exciting
Rhaime Kim (33:20):
recently, did you bump into somebody who was
wearing the baggy bags?
Claire Zhong (33:26):
Oh my god. Yeah, like that really was my I made a
moment. It really is crazy. AndI was doing the math in my head
being like, okay, what are thechances but anyways, I'll tell
you because it's it was such agreat moment. For me. I was just
walking in Shoreditch after thegym or something. And I saw on
the distance this girl with thisdenim baggy bag, and I ran up to
(33:49):
her and I was like, where's yourbag from? And she was like baggy
London. I can tell it from theway that she was saying it can.
Yeah, I can tell from the wayshe was saying it. Like it was
kind of blase that like she getsthis question a lot, you know,
and I was just like, I'm baggy.
Baggy leaded. Oh, my God was sheshook. I was like, I'm baggy
(34:10):
London. And then I was alsolike, as I was walking was
actually just about to postsomething on our Instagram. So I
was like, showing her I waslike, Well, yeah, I'm baggy
London. And she was like, oh mygod, I love what you do. And
then anyways, obviously, thishas never happened to me before.
So I just asked to take apicture of her and her friends
and she looked so cute. She waswearing it with like, the most
adorable outfit and her friendslooked adorable as well. And it
(34:32):
was a Sunday and it's like justa perfect like Sunday type of
bag. They were going to likethey had just been to the flower
market or something. They hadthese like cute flowers on them.
But yeah, it was super surreal.
I remember having like said byeto them. I immediately like cold
everyone I told my parents and Iremember sending the photo to my
parents being like, they'regonna think this is my friend.
(34:56):
These are my friends. I need tomake it very clear that I bumped
into these people, and they werewearing my bag. But it's
actually so interesting.
Literally stranger danger. Andit's also like incentivized me
to like be outed about more likea simple walk to the post office
now is more exciting because Ikeep my eyes peeled being like,
(35:17):
maybe someone's wearing abaggie. And I also might ask my
boyfriend to do some likeaddress heat mapping, and see if
there's like any sort of likenetwork effects of, you know,
people in East London, maybe arewearing the bag and telling
their friends, but yeah, super,super exciting stuff.
Rhaime Kim (35:38):
Do you have a lot of customers? Like, is there a
typical profile of yourcustomer? From what you're
describing? Like? Maybe not, butare there a certain like, maybe
you have a lot of Londoncustomers, given where you're
physically based right now? Orlike, do you find that baggy
resonates a lot with like, GenZ? or certain, like age groups
(35:58):
or personalities? Like have younoticed any patterns with your
audience? And do you have atarget audience as of now,
Claire Zhong (36:05):
I will say that all my customers are usually
female. So that's one thing. Andthen I guess, like on Instagram,
anyone who's used like Instagramads, you can like have these
like targeting profiles. Andwhat I usually do is like 18, to
like 50 years old, both genders,UK, US, because it's just like
(36:29):
large markets, English speaking.
And then either I do like, aresimilar to your followers on
baggy, which obviously is justlike, reproduces itself. Or you
can choose like interests. Solike interests and fashion
accessories. And then usuallythat means that the people who
are seeing the ads, the rightpeople kind of find you. But
(36:50):
yeah, I do have a lot of Londonbased customers, they all kind
of coalesce around East London,which is interesting. I
personally live kind of inCentral East. But yeah, I think
there's a lot of like, boutiquelabels that originate from from
East London. And then I also getcustomers from like, the wider
UK, folk from Australia. Andthen a lot of people from the US
(37:14):
as well. And in the US, it'sreally like you get like the
bicoastal representation likeNew York, California, but then I
also have like a lot of likeFloridians from Utah randomly.
Lots of Southerners buying mybat. Yeah, people from Texas,
but then also like Mississippi,Boston, um, but then yeah, like,
(37:34):
I also have customers from, likeSingapore, and Saudi Arabia,
and, you know, everywhere inEurope. Like, it is, it's not
like I have big representationin each of these geographies.
But just like being able to saythat like you last week, I
posted a package to, you know,check. And then today I'm
(37:59):
posting, you know, the UK orderslike is, is just, yeah,
something that's quite, quiteamazing.
Rhaime Kim (38:07):
And I think that's the beauty of the internet. I
think it's we're so lucky toexist in a day and age where it
is honestly, so easy to, for me,this is my second ever episode.
But it was honestly very easy toget this going. And I think it's
so cool that we have all thesethings that make up setting like
the shop and the logistics,doing all of that stuff online.
(38:29):
Like there's so many kind ofpartners out there that make it
turn key. So that's really cool.
Do you like if you don't mind measking like, what's the general
size of your business? Like, howmany orders have you filled? How
big is your business right now?
Claire Zhong (38:47):
Yeah, so I think we have like order of like 100,
like hundreds or so ordershundreds or so customers as
well. And yeah, I think thatrepresents we, our growth has
been pretty stable over the pastyear or so. But you know, we've
(39:07):
not really departed or divorcedfrom like our initial product
line, we've had one product inseveral colorways we've just
launched kind of a similarproduct, which is like the baggy
flop. So yeah, I think that'skind of the general size of our
business right now. With prettystable grows. And to be honest,
(39:29):
in terms of investing more intothat growth, it'll be something
that I have to be quiteconsidered about just because
it's just myself. And, you know,I have a full time job. This is
something that I'm doing on theside. And I think, you know, all
the amazing reasons why Viy hasbeen so rewarding, you know, the
(39:52):
fact that it's taken on a lifeof its own, like I've been able
to see and react to the way thatour customers kind of wear baggy
and interpret baggy. Those areall the same brief as I think we
should be, like, I guess,cognizant and heed why kind of
like lots of grows, especiallyin kind of fashion businesses
(40:14):
can be something that you needto be aware of as well, just
because it can take on a life ofits own, you can lose like your
creative voice in the entireprocess. And that's something
that I'm here to not do. Norwill it be something that I'll
be able to contend with, justwith my capacity right now. But
yeah,
Rhaime Kim (40:31):
right now, you're essentially a one woman show, I
would imagine, and you have atailor, as well, who helps you
create the bags? What does yourgeneral like, kind of your
operational workflow look like?
Do you keep inventory? How doyou fulfill the orders? It
(40:52):
sounds like you are fillingthem, yourselves yourself and
shipping it?
Claire Zhong (40:58):
Yeah, it's pretty chaotic, to be honest with you.
And I think the kind of I, Ifollow a lot of kind of similar
size sellers on Depop, andsocial media as well. And I
think sometimes the illusionthat folk give is that they have
everything kind of in order,they have this like super
(41:18):
seamless workflow where they canfulfill everything and be super
streamlined with everything.
That's definitely not what it iswith me. Yeah, we have kind of
like ad hoc drops. So we kind ofproduce in very small
quantities, which I think isanother reason we haven't been
able to grow. Loads. Becausethese bags are handmade, the
(41:41):
tailor can make maybe one or twoa date. And they're obviously
not working full time on this atall. So we produce some very,
very small quantities, thefabric is deadstock, and overall
fabric. So actually, even if itis the same color, there could
be sometimes some variants justbased on what fabric we get. So
(42:03):
definitely produce in smallquantities, they get sent to me,
and I restock the inventory. AndI do these drops, which I mark
it on social media. And thenwhen they sell out, they sell
out. And then I fulfilled ordersmyself. I have like I print
labels if they're in the UK,otherwise, I go to the post
(42:23):
office, if they'reinternational, it's quite
manual, I literally write outall of the addresses on my own
definitely an easier way to dothat swab. And it's something
that I know it's something Iwant to definitely improve on.
Like I asked my boyfriend, I waslike, What is one thing you
would change about baggie? Andhe was like, the extremely
laborious way that you fulfillas well as your pocket? Yeah.
(42:46):
Because the pack? Yeah, becauseI do everything myself to keep
costs low. I just use prettybasic packaging, whereas I don't
know if you've ever shopped fromcertain small businesses, I
think what really kind of levelsthem up? Is that that like
beautiful packaging that end toend experience you get with like
the personalized No, like tissuepaper, all of that. So that's
(43:08):
something that yeah, 100% wouldtake our business to the next
level. But right now it's it'spretty chaotic and ad hoc, to be
honest,
Rhaime Kim (43:17):
but you make it work. And you still have clients
from all over the world. So butcan definitely see how like this
is I mean, it I don't know howyou get it done, you know, but
what are your current saleschannels? Are you on Depop? You
have an online shop, where areyou listed? And where do you
(43:40):
seem to get the most orders. So
Claire Zhong (43:43):
I sell everything on my website by Guillain
newgarden.com. Previously, I wasselling on a sauce marketplace
Depop as well as Etsy. Cool, butI mean, because of like the
margins that they take, I justkind of deprioritize those
channels. But it's a great way Ithink to kind of get started and
(44:05):
get your product out there.
Where you know, there's going tobe like an audience, a cohort of
buyers who liked kind of similaritems. So 100% think that those
are great channels that helpedme, I'm sure kind of get started
and build up a customer base,especially with like the number
of followers I had on Depop atthe time, but right now I sell
(44:28):
mainly through my website and Ido my marketing mainly through
Instagram. I did Tik Tok beforeas well, but it's kind of high
lift to be honest. Yeah, mainlyjust
Rhaime Kim (44:43):
what have been like some of the most challenging
aspects of your business.
Claire Zhong (44:50):
So I think at the beginning there was I was seeing
absolutely nothing like it onthe market and that was
challenging because I was like,Is this even? Cute? Is this even
it pretty, like I said, it's notsomething that's my style. And I
felt this pressure to alwayswear my bag. I love bugs in
general, but I was wearing mybag with everything, even with
(45:11):
outfits that didn't go. So Ithink from like, yeah, yeah,
like a creative processperspective, that was
challenging, because it's hardto kind of build confidence at
the beginning, when literallyeverything that you're seeing on
the market are these. And inhindsight, you know, this is the
whole thing with fashion, right,like things look dated really
quickly. But at the time, it wasall of these tiny baguette bags.
(45:37):
And you've even now, I thinkpeople are adopting these tiny
kind of snakeskin PVC stylestructured bags. Whereas I think
I was on like, a completelydifferent kind of direction. But
I did have like, my styleinspiration, like Molly Goddard,
Chet Lowe and and the stuff thatthey were doing, really, for me
(46:00):
felt like it was artful andraise the bar. So that was one
of the challenges. Thatchallenges evolved a little bit.
Now, with kind of brands copyingyour styles, I think this is
something that small businessesuniversally deal with were
bigger labels, AliExpress, so onand so forth, will refer to
(46:20):
small businesses designs, andsell them at much lower price
points. With me, I didn't reallyhave kind of like AliExpress, or
any of that. But there was likea similar retailer based in
Australia, which ripped off bydesign, you know, the dimensions
were exactly the same. I spokeat length about the dimensions
(46:43):
of our bag being really big, andit just seemed a little bit too
serendipitous for it to be, youknow, a coincidence. And
actually, it was an interestingexperience, where when we
confronted this retailer aboutit, they blocked not only
myself, but all of my followerson Instagram. And, yeah, so that
(47:05):
was for me, like beyondadmission of guilt. And then,
only when one of my followerswho has worked with this brand
before reached out that theykind of make claims about seeing
this design elsewhere in Japan.
But anyways, I kind of let thatdrop as Yeah, I know. And I was
like, first of all, even if itwas from Japan, you shouldn't
(47:26):
have copied it. And second ofall, if that's the case, then
show me the pictures, you know.
So that's a challenge. It'snearly like now that ruffles are
becoming all the trend like yousee it just with fancy club, the
kind of rise of big scrunchiescoquette cottage and ballet
(47:48):
styles. I want to kind of thinkthat it's like the world
catching up with these big, moreorganic, more ethereal styles,
as opposed to just beingserendipitous. And I think us
having conviction in that designhas been super great. But then
(48:10):
it does mean that there aregoing to be a lot of designs
that are similar to yours orderivative of yours. And being
able to stay authentic and havea distinct USP, and I guess
value proposition in light ofthat, and be truly
differentiating is is, I guess,a new challenge that we need to
contend contend with.
Rhaime Kim (48:30):
I mean, they say like, imitation is the biggest
compliment or whatever. But Ithink when you're in that
moment, it's a must have beenreally, like really stressful
and frustrating. So yeah, it's,you know, it's pretty awful.
Honestly, I have seen it I have,I know an artist, and I think
her work was also copied byanother artist. And it sounded
(48:57):
like, really, I don't know, Ijust feel like I feel horrible
if I were in that position. Soit sucks that you went through
that. What advice would you giveyourself when you were getting
started on this?
Claire Zhong (49:11):
I think I always think back to the moment where I
started baggy, you know, madethat first prototype, and I
think it was very arbitrary. Itcould have gone either way. I
could have just stuck with theNF T's I could have not pursued
the more analog route. I thinkthe advice I would probably give
(49:33):
myself is you always surpriseyourself. And you might be
surprised by the sort of stylesthat you like, and the art that
you create. And also let yourcustomers and I guess let the
market surprise you as well withhow they interpret and reproduce
(49:57):
your your designs. Um, I thinkit's the advice I would give
anyone, I guess creating theirown product, or starting their
own thing. It's kind of harkenback to what I said at the
beginning. There's so much onusto have that very, very coherent
(50:18):
plan a narrative when when youstart something, and I think
that comes from theproliferation of so much content
around being a founder, raisingmoney, pitch decks, you know,
it's all about being supercogent, and you know, the
elevator pitch. And sometimeswhen people think that they have
something that's a little bitmore like in Kuwait, and, you
(50:40):
know, rudimentary, unformed, itreally shakes your confidence,
but it's going back to thatreliance on your intuition. And
trust in your gut, that you havesomething, you know, valuable to
say and valuable to create. AndI think it's actually done us a
disservice, you know, this overphilosophizing, and over
(51:02):
intellectualizing of what itmeans to be a founder and what
it means to be a creator. Itreally isn't so glamorous. And,
you know, in product management,we have this idea of an MVP. And
it really is true, like, what isthe minimum viable version of
what you're trying to create,that you still think represents
(51:22):
what you want to do, but is solow lift, that you can get it
out to the market, and have themarket give you you know, the
reactions and the insights andthe knowledge you need to evolve
that into something that peoplecontinue to love. And it's
exciting, you know, it'll beexciting. It's more exciting
(51:42):
than scary for me to be able tosee, you know, whether or not
folk love what, what you create.
So I think that really is theadvice that I would give myself
and anyone else who is who istrying to start something,
right, like don't
Rhaime Kim (51:57):
get too mentally bogged down and focus on doing
and creating what you love.
You're a senior product managerat D pop. Is it challenging?
juggling your work with baggy?
And do you see any? I guess youtalked about MVPs the concept of
(52:18):
that helping you charge forwardwith baggy? Is there anything
you've learned through your workand product that's helped you
with baggy?
Claire Zhong (52:26):
Honestly, it's it's not that difficult juggling
my job and baggy, like even whenI was working in consulting, I
found the time to work on, youknow, the accessories business
that I was working on. But Ithink yeah, reflecting on your
question, I think a lot of stuffabout being a product manager
(52:47):
has helped me be, you know, agood CEO and founder of of baggy
as well. Not only from like amethodology perspective, but
also just in, I guess this ideaof like product market fit about
thinking about user needs, it'sobviously a little bit
different, because the problemsthat you're trying to solve with
(53:10):
digital interfaces and apps withmillions and millions of
customers and traffic are goingto be different than creating a
product that people seem to loveand are able to appreciate,
regardless of having this liketrue user need. So definitely
from like, being a founder, andbeing your own, like mini CEO,
(53:31):
which is I guess what all PMSare, that's definitely helped.
And then obviously, the workingin a fashion tech company, and
creative marketplace, there arenatural synergies as well, what
we do at Depop is we try tooptimize our product experience
to convert people and optimizesales that's very similar to
(53:51):
what I do on my ecommerceplatform. So, you know, I've
been able to run experiments onmy product page and run email
campaigns, and play around withproduct listings and the way
that they show and that that's,that's very much, you know,
transferable from the day to dayof what I do at Depop. So I'm
very lucky.
Rhaime Kim (54:11):
Yeah, that's so cool. I guess there are like
things you must observe becauseyou have to understand your
customer who are other businessowners like you with brands to
be a great product manager atDepop. So I can see how that
ends up actually fueling yourknowledge and creating baggy.
What's next for baggy? Youmentioned that there's original
(54:35):
bag there was also a one with aflap. Are you interested in
creating completely differenttypes of bags or focus on a
different category of products?
Or do you think with yourcurrent designs, it's something
that you want to continue makingthat iconic, just baggy bag.
Claire Zhong (54:55):
So we just launched the baggy flat bag
which as you mentioned how is aflop to kind of keep your
belongings secure with ouriconic design. I think in terms
of products, I think we'reinstead of kind of expanding our
product lines, I might actuallyrefine it and take a step back
(55:16):
and see, you know, we've gotinfinity colors, you know, and
that's just, you know, a taxconsequence of bias, exactly a
consequence of bias to action isthat you end up with a lot of
products. And, you know, I I'msure you're kind of familiar
with this idea of tech debt,when you're working in an
experimentation drivenenvironment, you kind of
(55:36):
accumulate layers and layers ofcode that has just been added.
So I think the next step for meis kind of taking a step back,
trying to refine ourproposition, whether that be
cutting out some of our productlines to kind of, you know,
return to the idea of thisminimalist concept of having one
iconic style in a few colors. Ithink that will be one thing
(55:58):
that I do, I will try to thinkabout my end to end fulfillment
and that kind of packagingexperience in a way that's still
sustainable, but in a way that'sconsidered and, you know, gives
that like delightful experiencefor the end customer. And then,
yeah, I think at the outset ofthe call, I talked about NF T's
(56:19):
web three, this idea of digitalart and how that was super
endemic to, you know, ourinitiation as a as a company.
And as a brand. I always thinkabout, you know, the content I
create for baggy, whether thatbe you know, the images I create
for the product page, or tiktoksor just permuting the content
(56:40):
that the UGC that that arisesfrom all of these baggy girls
that we have. I'm trying to finda way to kind of weave that back
into our our initial narrativeof being a web three boutique.
Is there anything about webthree, and this idea of like
minting and tokenizing art thatwe can leverage, I'm still
(57:00):
mulling over that one. But as Imentioned, you know, web three
and crypto blockchainspecifically is something I
continue to want to raiseawareness of in these like women
and underrepresented minoritygroups. So having this like
launch following and community.
Yeah, maybe maybe that'ssomething that that we think
(57:22):
about. But to be honest, no firmplans just yet.
Rhaime Kim (57:26):
Where can we find baggy? And how can the audience
help you?
Claire Zhong (57:31):
Yeah, so you can find us on Instagram at baggy,
baggy dot London, and ourwebsite is baggy. london.com.
And I can get you guys a code aswell. We can do entrepreneurial
15 for 15% off. But otherwise,honestly, I think, you know,
it's great what you're doingcapturing the stories of
(57:53):
founders in all shapes andsizes. And yeah, it just it's
it's a privilege to be able totell my story to your your
following into your audience.
Welcome. Check us out. And yeah,thanks for having me.
Rhaime Kim (58:07):
Yeah, thanks so much, Claire. So for the
audience, go to baggy. Is itbaggy?
Claire Zhong (58:13):
london.com? Yes, by the london.com
Rhaime Kim (58:17):
go to baggy london.com It's baggy with a Y
and entrepreneurial 15. We'llget you 15% off. Claire, thank
you so much. I have been wantingto interview you and talk to
across your different venturesacross the years I've been like
I want to interview about thisand this and now it's baggy and
(58:39):
I am so grateful for your time.
So thanks so much Claire.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.