December 16, 2024 • 41 mins
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Join Jacob and Lucas in this episode of Entropy Rising as they explore the fascinating future of cybernetics and mind uploading. Imagine a world where brain implants boost your intelligence, robotic limbs move with your thoughts, and your consciousness can be transferred into a digital utopia. They discuss the benefits and risks of these groundbreaking technologies, including ethical questions about identity, control, and the price of immortality.
The conversation covers a wide range of topics, from the practical implications of cybernetic enhancements to the societal impact of a future where the lines between human and machine are increasingly blurred. Jacob and Lucas delve into the possibility of using neural implants to cure diseases, enhance cognitive abilities, and even eliminate social anxiety. But they also ponder the darker side: what happens when only the wealthy can afford these enhancements? How do we ensure these technologies are used ethically, without compromising our humanity?
As they imagine a future where mind uploading allows people to escape the limits of biology, they explore the philosophical question of what it means to truly exist. Is a digital copy of your mind still you? Could a consciousness living inside a machine ever be as authentic as a biological one? The hosts tackle these questions with humor and curiosity, offering different perspectives on the pros and cons of living in a cybernetic world.
The episode also touches on the concept of a digital afterlife, where people could theoretically live forever within a simulated environment. Jacob and Lucas discuss the potential for a utopian existence free from physical constraints, but also the potential for exploitation and control. What if an uploaded mind could be punished or manipulated? Would living forever truly be a blessing, or could it become a nightmare?
Tune in for an engaging discussion that blends futuristic speculation with humor, challenging you to think deeply about what comes next for humanity. Whether you're excited about the potential of technology to enhance our lives or wary of the risks involved, this episode of Entropy Rising will leave you with plenty to consider about the future of human evolution.
Website: https://www.entropy-rising.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jacob (00:00):
Maybe there's certain laws that say if You know commit
(00:02):
murder or something like that.
We won't let you upload to thematrioshka brand and You're
literally just denied anafterlife Or they say, okay,
you can be uploaded, but there'sgoing to be certain punishments
and if you're an artificialuploaded consciousness, you can
have suffering beyond beliefHello and welcome to Entropy
(00:27):
Rising where we talk aboutscience and futurism.
I'm your host, Jacob, and I'mhere with my co host, Lucas.
Lucas, how are you doing?
Lucas (00:33):
I'm doing great, Jake.
How are you doing today?
Jacob (00:35):
I'm doing good.
I'm really looking forwardto jumping into everything
we have to talk about today.
I did want to, real quick beforewe dive into the conversation,
I just wanted to say thankyou to everyone who's been
following us over on threads.
we're reaching almost200 followers on
threads, which is crazy.
Lucas (00:48):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Thank you, everybody.
That's awesome
Jacob (00:51):
Absolutely.
And if you've been engagingon Threads, I've been the
one that you're talking to.
so if you want to carry onthese conversations, Threads
is a great place to do it.
And if you've coming here fromThreads, welcome to the show.
Lucas (01:02):
Yeah, welcome.
Jacob (01:02):
And last thing is just thank you to everyone who's
been following the show.
We've gotten a fewsubscribers on YouTube and
some followers on Spotify.
So if that's you, you know,we really appreciate it.
And we're glad you'refollowing along to hear
what we have to say.
Lucas (01:13):
Yeah, it means the world to us.
Jacob (01:15):
Alright, let's not delay the conversation though.
this week we have someinteresting topics.
I know you specificallyreally wanted to talk
about cybernetics.
Yeah.
And I saw your list of notes.
I'm excited to hear whatyou have to say about it.
Lucas (01:26):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I just wanted todive into, the bizarre
world of, cybernetics.
Get into it a little bit, howit's changing our lives, where
it might take us in the future.
And, just imagine a worldwhere, you can be wired
to the internet or, uploadyourself into something or,
modify your body in some way.
Jacob (01:42):
For anyone who's unaware, can you give like
a quick, rundown of whatexactly is cybernetics?
Like a workingdefinition for it?
Lucas (01:47):
Absolutely.
let's break it down, right?
Cybernetics is the studyof systems that manage
and control information.
The term was firstcoined by Norbert Weiner.
In the 1940s, and it's allabout understanding how
systems, whether biologicalor mechanical communicate
and regulate themselves.
In the case of cybernetics andenhancements, we're talking
about connecting the human bodywith machines in a way that
(02:08):
allow for real time feedback.
That means devices likebrain implants, exoskeletons,
even prosthetic limbs.
That could communicate withthe nervous system, making us
more efficient and capable.
Jacob (02:19):
That makes sense.
when I think of cybernetics,I do specifically think of,
like the nervous system,like brain implants.
I guess also prosthetics,but more about how they
connect to our nervous system.
Lucas (02:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's the difference betweenjust having a plastic leg
or having something that hastactile feel and that you can
move around using your brain.
That's what separates those two.
Jacob (02:37):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
Lucas (02:39):
so I just want you to imagine this, right?
it's the near future.
you've gone througha procedure to have a
neural implant installed.
The idea is that you'll beable to enhance your cognitive
abilities, improve memory.
Process information faster andeven connect to the internet
directly with your thoughts.
But then things start to geta little bit too connected.
Jacob (02:58):
Yeah.
Lucas (02:59):
So at first everything works great.
You're more productive.
You're learning fasterand you feel like you're
finally on top of your game.
But then one day your implantstarts doing things on its own.
Sending messages, accessingdata, even controlling
your body in subtle ways.
Like suddenly your hands aretyping out emails when you're
not even thinking about it.
And it's like you havea mind of its own.
(03:19):
And you're not sureif you should be
impressed or terrified.
Jacob (03:23):
Okay, so you're making like a hypothetical
situation where I guess likethe implant starts, taking
patterns of your own behaviorand maybe overlaying them
over your, before you'reeven planning on doing it.
Lucas (03:33):
Right?
Because that would be what isputting essentially another
brain In your brain would do.
Jacob (03:40):
it makes sense.
I know there's a tick tocker.
he has a cybernetic leg and hetalks about how it literally
uses machine learning to learnhis gate and learn how he
walks and it predicts how itshould swing out and stuff just
based on this training data.
Lucas (03:53):
Yeah.
that's crazy to thinkabout, but it is like now.
We're creating these things,you know, you have neural link
that's coming out that they'rehaving advancements and that's
being able to help people whoweren't able to control their
limbs before they, connectedto your brain and directly
to your nervous system.
And suddenly using aconnection between those two,
(04:13):
you're able to manipulateyour body once more.
using that connection insteadof your actual nervous system,
Jacob (04:20):
I really do think that's going to be the true melding of
the virtual and technologicalworld with the biological.
Lucas (04:26):
Absolutely.
so here's where thingsabout cybernetics start to
get, pretty interesting.
So you imagine a futurewhere everybody has access
to cybernetic enhancements.
Suddenly you're not learningthings like reading books
or watching tutorials.
You're downloading informationdirectly into your brain.
You need to learn a newlanguage for a trip.
(04:47):
Boom.
You got it.
Jacob (04:49):
now that sounds nice in and of itself.
Lucas (04:51):
Yeah.
but the list can go on and onwith what you can do, right?
You want to ace a bigpresentation done.
You can learn how todo public speaking.
You can have it completelytake over, get rid of
all that social anxiety.
You can have it pump differenthormones or stimulants into your
body, whatever you would need.
To be able to performthat action at a hundred
percent efficiency.
Jacob (05:11):
that would also cure a lot of mental illness.
Lucas (05:13):
Absolutely.
you could have it to whereit regulates, everything
in your body, you wantto be a lower weight, you
want to be more muscular.
you want to be ableto go out and be more
charismatic, everythingexcept for your appearance.
and even that can bemodified in the future, but
that's a different topic.
But, uh, cybernetics canessentially do that for you.
Jacob (05:34):
That's crazy.
Cause I really only thoughtabout it in terms of just
a brain computer interface,not changing other aspects
of how your body functions.
Lucas (05:40):
Yeah.
it really is a crazy.
world to think about,where whatever problem you
could be facing mentally,you can overcome that.
And then of course thereis the physical people
who have disabilities or.
who have, lost limbs fromcertain things, they can
be replaced with machinesthat, link up with your brain
(06:00):
and it can be seamless, thetransition between the two.
Jacob (06:04):
the biggest one I think of is like paralysis,
which we saw the first patientwho received a neuro link
implant, was quadriplegic.
And that, I can't imaginethe quality of life
improvement that has to be.
Lucas (06:13):
it has to be incredible.
It's hard to think about.
What it would be like to notbe able to use your limbs, to
not be able to use your legsor your arms, and essentially
just be trapped in your head.
And then, it's unfathomableto think about what it
would be like to get thatback after that time.
Jacob (06:31):
Yeah, even just a basal level of connection, to be
able to control a computeragain, it's just huge.
Lucas (06:36):
It absolutely is.
Jacob (06:37):
I guess one of my biggest questions, something we've
touched on a little bit onthe show, is how is that going
to affect society if everyonehas access to this technology?
Lucas (06:44):
It's a great question.
So picture this, right?
Your implant connects toa vast network of data.
And in the middle of aconversation, you're able to
pull up the history of thetopic you're discussing, every
scientific fact, every famousquote, every counterpoint, and
then what happens to the valueof human creativity, right?
Do we lose the need forindependent thought if all the
(07:05):
knowledge we could ever need isalways available in our heads?
Jacob (07:09):
Ooh, this is actually reminding me, I don't if I
feel like I bring this authorup every single episode,
but Alistair Reynolds.
there's a subset of humanityin his, revelation space
novels called the ca joiners,who essentially have brain to
brain connection, and they'reinterconnected in this hive of
humanity, and they can shareentire concepts to each other.
They don't use, theythink talking is too slow.
(07:31):
They can basically just beam anentire concept to someone else.
Yeah.
Lucas (07:35):
like thinking about that, will we lose part of
ourselves, And doing that,cause that sounds amazing at
first, but it's almost likea similar thing with, shorts,
like it's just skippingstuff or not really skipping,
but just compressing right.
Information being able tosend that to each other
and just immediately havethat you sort of lose the.
(07:56):
the feeling that you getwith having an in depth
Jacob (07:58):
conversation with somebody, or is it going
to be more in depth?
something that they explorein that same book series is
that they feel like talkingto somebody, you can't convey
the same depth of knowledgeand experience that you can
through this direct brain tobrain connection, because I'm
not just sending you my words.
I can send you my thoughts,my emotions, my point
of view on a topic.
So maybe it'll allow foreven better communication.
(08:20):
It
Lucas (08:20):
definitely could.
I mean, going in the oppositedirection, people have always
said that a lot of times, whenyou're having a conversation
with someone and it's reallyemotional, I myself, I get
lost with words, right?
They can't conveyhow I'm feeling.
So you're right.
It can go in the otherdirection and really create
an even stronger connectionthrough that conversation or
(08:42):
whatever we would call it.
the sharing of that concept, butthat is a very interesting idea.
and on the flip side, rightnow, think about the job market.
A cybernetic enhancementbecomes more widespread.
The bar for what's considerednormal might shift.
If someone has a cognitiveimplant that lets them learn
complex tasks instantly,suddenly it's not about
(09:03):
who can learn the fastest.
But who can think the mostcritically or innovatively?
Cybernetics would level theplaying field in some ways,
but it could also create aneven more competitive society.
If you're not enhanced,do you fall behind?
Jacob (09:16):
That is a fair point.
I mean, this is kind of the sameethical dilemma that comes up
with things like gene editing.
if you have the money to makeyour offspring have better
genes so they can performbetter, that gives them an
unfair advantage in life.
And especially with cybernetics,if presumably when this is a
new technology, it is goingto be fairly expensive.
So if I can pay to have acompetitive advantage to you,
(09:37):
that's, yeah, that's, there's alot of ethical dilemmas there.
Lucas (09:40):
Absolutely.
I feel like the only waythat it would really be You
know, acceptable as if itwas available to everyone.
Yeah,
Jacob (09:48):
but it's going to be expensive at first.
I imagine, of course, maybea long way down the road
cybernetics are consideredA normal thing everyone has
access to them But I feel likeeven then there's a potential
that you might have, youknow The b grade cybernetics
and I might have the moreexpensive ones that allow Maybe
faster cognitive ability, Ican reason faster than you
(10:08):
gives me a wider access toinformation, or maybe I can
retrieve that information at afaster rate than you and still
gives me a competitive edge.
Lucas (10:16):
I feel like there has to be that competitive edge.
There has to be somethingthat people are driving.
To push forward, to be ableto, one up the guy next to you.
I feel like that is, although,it's cruel to the people that
aren't at that top level.
It's needed in a societyto be able to drive people.
Jacob (10:33):
But I feel like, in our society, that drive is it more
or less levels the playingfield and you might have more
money than me, but I can still.
Study math, study physics, and,I'll perform you if I really,
dive into it, or at leastthere's this thought that I can.
But with cybernetics, youcan literally just pay
to be smarter than me.
Yeah! Yeah!If I don't have the money,
and there's nothing I can, itdoesn't matter how much studying
(10:54):
I can do, if you can pay tothink twice as fast as I can.
Lucas (10:58):
maybe the first ones that come out, like the
first cybernetic implants,they'll be on a lower level,
but that'll advance quickly.
And that gap between whatthey can and can't do will
become smaller and smaller.
Jacob (11:09):
That is true.
I mean, over the courseof hundreds of years,
presumably, it'll be almostlike smartphones, or even
some basic model smartphones.
They'll do all thethings a new one can do.
I imagine with cybernetics,it'll probably be
a similar trend.
Lucas (11:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, um, talking about thefuture, let's say everyone
is walking around with someform of neural implant.
This can mean that your brainis, constantly analyzing
emotions, behaviors, andeven interactions with other
people, which is crazy.
Yeah, that
Jacob (11:38):
is kind of wild to think about.
Lucas (11:39):
think about how that might change dating, right?
Let's say that you're out withsomeone and they're wearing
a neural interface too.
They can literallyread your emotions.
And in turn, youcan read theirs.
Every awkward pause or unspokenthought would be laid bare.
Jacob (11:57):
Yeah.
I feel like you wouldalmost need to have some
sort of neural, block.
a certain level that peoplejust can't see into without you
granting it permission, almostlike with like iPhones, right?
You can, turn off read receipts.
I feel like you would needthat for your, your implants.
So people can't seecertain levels of your
emotion or something.
Lucas (12:12):
Absolutely.
I mean, especially talking aboutlike with people that you're
trying to court, right, in a wayit would almost be the polite
thing to do in the future isallow for someone to have that.
I don't want to say shame,but that privacy of emotion.
Yeah,
Jacob (12:28):
exactly.
That might be the sign of atrusting relationship is like,
Oh yeah, I don't, he doesn'tshare his emotion with me.
Not like in the toxic waythat happens today, but
like on a literal level ofno, he, that's blocked off.
I can't just read his mind.
I actually have to askhim what's going on.
Yeah.
But that also does open thedoor to a lot of, potential,
abuse situations, if you forcesomebody to have their mind
(12:48):
laid bare to you, so you cansee every single thought, how
could they even think abouttrying to escape that situation?
And not only on the domesticfront, but even in a corporate
world, what if your employerforces you to keep a certain
level of that open to them?
So they know maybe even assoon as you know, that you
want to leave that job.
Yeah.
Lucas (13:05):
I mean that ties into what, some people
view as could be dystopian.
Jacob (13:09):
I, yeah, that definitely could be dystopian and it
might be necessary that, Evenif these technologies can
allow that level of depth andunderstanding, the manufacturer
might have to lock that offbecause even giving people
the option to do that, if theypersonally would want to, could
put other people in such anawkward position that it's just
like, we're just going to lockthat off and let no one have it.
Lucas (13:29):
Yeah.
I mean, just imagine the stressthat you would feel going into
a date or a workplace and you'relike, okay, my entire self.
is on display immediately,the anxiety would be crazy.
But then of course, you couldhave a cybernetic implant
that reduces your anxiety.
Jacob (13:48):
Yeah.
at
Lucas (13:49):
that
Jacob (13:49):
point
Lucas (13:49):
though, how much of that is still you?
Exactly.
Exactly.
It's almost like you, youare trading your humanity.
For, being what societyviews is better.
Jacob (13:59):
I will say if you like this topic, you really should
consider reading the revelationspace series, specifically
the parts of that have to dowith the conjoiners, because
that's all their society isthe super connected hive mind,
almost you still function as anindividual within that society.
But there is this almost layerabove the corporeal world
where it's just like this webof thought and experience.
(14:21):
And, the conjoiners in thisbook, that's the name for the
people in the society, theydo not do well by themselves.
They need to beconnected to this.
It almost be like takingsomeone, like a kid today and
getting rid of the internet,but times a hundred, they feel
very disconnected and isolated.
And, I love the way thisauthor does stuff because it
sounds very dystopian and verymuch like the Borg from Star
Trek, but by all accounts,anyone who enters into this
(14:44):
subset of humanity loves it.
And it never wants to go back.
Lucas (14:49):
Yeah, but is it still them?
If they'd entered in?
That is
Jacob (14:53):
the open question in the book.
It's can I trustthat to still be you?
Because your mind's connectedto everyone else all the time.
Lucas (14:58):
Yeah, it reminds me of of a book I read.
I can't rememberthe title of it.
But it's essentiallywhen you turn 16.
you go and you'remade beautiful.
there's a surgery that youget to be beautiful and pretty
much the struggle betweenthe book is that to become
beautiful, they essentiallycut out a part of you, like
(15:19):
your cognitive thinking.
it was really interestingcause it relates to this a lot.
Now, of course for themit was physical beauty,
but it's the same idea.
You would be losing a pieceof yourself to be able to join
in on a gestalt consciousness.
Jacob (15:31):
Yeah, exactly.
I, for one would probably do it.
Lucas (15:34):
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, you know,just because I'm a huge tech
buff, like I bring it on.
Yeah, exactly.
But I can definitelysee where it would.
make me sad to losethat piece of myself.
But at the same time, onceyou're there, it doesn't matter.
It's the same thing.
Like when you're dead, Yeah.
We don't want to die, but whenyou're dead, it doesn't matter.
Jacob (15:54):
And would you be sad?
Cause you can take theinfluence can make you happy.
So I guess that's thehypothetical question.
It's a little philosophical,but would you rather be sad,
but no, that's true sadnessin your true self, or just be
happy and live in bliss, but.
have the notion,that's not truly you.
Lucas (16:10):
that's hard, right?
Because, because it's, is it
Jacob (16:13):
me?
I'm going to take being happy.
I don't see the downside.
Lucas (16:16):
Yeah.
but is it you reallybeing happy anymore?
Imagine not being able tohave your individual thought.
Yeah.
Jacob (16:22):
Now that's yeah, that's another
Lucas (16:24):
level of extreme, but right.
but I do under, I woulddefinitely take blissful
happiness, especially ifit could be for everyone,
because there's a lot morepeople in this world that
are miserable than the.
Happy, right?
if us all being happy,but losing a little bit
of ourselves, I feel likethat would be something
that's worth it to getrid of all that misery.
(16:44):
But if it's selective.
I don't know how it would react.
I it's a hardquestion to ponder.
Jacob (16:50):
That's true.
I think we've gone a littleoff the rails though,
from cybernetics, maybe.
Lucas (16:53):
Yeah, we did.
okay.
So let's go into theethics of cybernetics.
Jacob (16:57):
Yeah.
Lucas (16:58):
so getting serious for a second.
One of the biggest concernswith the rise of cybernetics
is the ethics behind it.
What happens when only thewealthy can afford brain
implants or body enhancements?
You're already starting to seethe divide in things like access
to healthcare and education.
Could cybernetic enhancementsbecome another tool for
the rich to get ahead?
(17:18):
Leaving the restof society behind.
So touching on that,and then there's the
issue of consent, right?
If everybody's gettingupgrades, how do we
decide what's too much?
Jacob (17:30):
Okay.
when you say consent, I assumeif everyone's getting upgrades,
do they not have the option?
Lucas (17:35):
is it okay to enhance someone's brain to the
point where they lose theirown sense of identity?
What happens, when AI startsto take over decisions, making
for people, we're entering aworld where the lines between
humanity and technology aregoing to get blurred, and fast.
Jacob (17:50):
I got you.
when it comes to, you'retalking about the consent side
of it, I feel like a personneeds to have control over
the cybernetics they have.
But imagine a world,where you, you come out.
And you get animplant, you're saying.
this is not happeningin your lifetime.
This is already, thetransition to cybernext
has already happened.
You're born into this worldand it's, it just gets put
(18:12):
into you at a young age.
Exactly.
Like it just happened.
It's
Lucas (18:16):
like at age five, you get your first implant to be able to
communicate with your friends.
Jacob (18:21):
Makes me think about kind of social media now,
where you have kids who aregetting social media accounts
made for them at a young ageand they grow up with it.
Lucas (18:28):
Yeah, you can definitely see it that way, right?
And those kids could bemore socially adept or
it could be worse off.
We really don't know yet,but the kids with cybernetic
implants, they're going tobe ahead in school, right?
They're going to be aheadsocially because they
can communicate better.
They'll be able to startreading emotions better.
there'll be betterat public speaking.
So is it really a choice ordo you have to do that for
(18:52):
your child just that theycan make it in the world?
Jacob (18:55):
I can say, yeah, that's a huge ethical question.
It's not just goingto be for children.
It's going to be for people.
It's almost like havinga smartphone today.
I can opt not to be on theinternet and have a smartphone,
but I'm not going to be ableto get a job, but times 10,
because now we're talkingabout an invasive, piece of
technology that's going to beincorporated into your brain.
So you.
Ethically, if you havethe option not to opt into
this technology, but itostracizes you from society,
(19:19):
is that really an option?
I don't think that's an option.
I mean, yeah, it's not,
Lucas (19:22):
but that, again is I think that's an
ethical issue, right?
Because at that point,then why not just put the
implants into the embryos?
Jacob (19:29):
Yeah.
Lucas (19:30):
like just have the machine grow within
because it could be.
like a biomass that isessentially an implant that
programmed to grow in acertain way and accept the
implant and build onto it,
Jacob (19:42):
funny enough, as the extreme option, that might be
the more egalitarian optionif everyone's got it and then
no one had to say so, maybethat's just the way to go.
I say, you know what, Let'sremove the ethics of choice
and just say everyone gets itand everyone gets the same one.
We're all on the same level.
We all get to enjoythis blissful happiness.
Is it you?
What does it matter?
What was you withoutthis if you've had it
since an embryo anyways?
Lucas (20:02):
Yeah, but that's how ethics is, right?
It never matters for the Peoplethat are going into it, it
matters for the people makingthe decisions to do that.
So for us not growing up withthose implants and people,
fearing what that could belike, how their offspring will
no longer be like them in away they're going to live a
completely different life.
(20:22):
it's hard to make that decisionand that's where those ethics
really come in because forthose people who a hundred
years in the future havealready been, they're the
fifth, sixth generation thathas had this happen to them.
It's not going to matterto them because that's
what they know now.
Jacob (20:36):
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I don't have anethical answer for that.
Lucas (20:38):
Yeah, it's hard, right?
But it could bethe future, right?
It could be, like you said,the egalitarian way, offering
that to everybody might bebetter than it being a selective
choice for only the rich.
Yeah.
Only the people thatfeel like they deserve
Jacob (20:52):
it.
Because that isthe issue I have.
This is just going tobenefit rich people and
widen the gap between thehaves and the have nots.
Lucas (20:58):
realistically, I just don't see a future.
I see a future whereeverybody might have them.
But the rich willalways have it.
Jacob (21:06):
Yeah, seems to be the case.
Lucas (21:07):
Yeah.
All right.
So, um, you know, pretty much,the future of cybernetics, it's
exciting, a little, unnerving,but we could all be walking
around with enhancementsthat make us faster, smarter,
healthier, maybe even moreemotionally intelligent, right?
But let's face it, none ofus are ready for the day when
our toaster starts, offering,unsolicited relationship advice.
Jacob (21:29):
Hey, as long as it's good advice.
I guess so.
Yeah.
Um, well, something I thinkthat is closely related
to cybernetics, and we'vedefinitely already touched
on small parts of it in theearlier discussion, is going to
be the idea of mind uploading.
Lucas (21:42):
Oh yeah.
I know that you wereexcited about that.
Jacob (21:44):
Yeah.
it's almost like takingcybernetics, I think,
to its logical extreme.
It's not just augmenting thehuman brain with technology.
It's running the humanbrain on technology.
Lucas (21:55):
Now, when you say running the human brain on
technology, can you give mea little bit of an in depth
thought of how that would work?
Jacob (22:02):
yeah, absolutely.
Actually, before we go intothe mechanics of it though, one
of the, I feel like elephantsin the room that we should,
discuss with mind uploadingis actually a little bit of
the philosophy behind it.
I don't want to dive into thistoo much, but I actually did
run a poll on our threads askingif you upload your brain to a
computer, is that still you?
(22:22):
And it seemed likea, an open question.
Overwhelming majority of thepeople said that is not you
anymore, that is a copy of you.
And I definitely get why peoplefeel like that, and in many
ways I feel like that too.
So I think, I just want todispel this notion of, you
see it in science fictionall the time, you put on a
cap, you download your braininto a computer, and now,
you can live on forever inthis technological utopia.
(22:43):
That's realistically not goingto be how this works, because
if you try to upload a copy ofyour brain onto a computer, I
don't think that's you anymore.
Lucas (22:50):
So what if you were to do that, but there was no
longer like you and your body?
Jacob (22:57):
Yeah.
So it's the idea of if youupload a copy in your brain,
but the upload process killsthe original, you know?
Okay, so, at that point, youknow, it's almost like the
Star Trek, teleporter, thing.
Isn't that still you?
for all intents and purposes,sure, you could call that you,
but I still think it's thesame thing as, the you and
your body dying so that anotherversion of you can live on.
(23:18):
Now, if that's the only option,I could see people opting
for that at the end of theirnatural lives anyways, but I
don't think many people aregoing to be able to do that
in their twenties, right?
Lucas (23:27):
no, because it would still be, it would
be scary because in a wayyou're dying and you're just
crossing your fingers open,man, whatever consciousness
is that transferred over.
Jacob (23:37):
Yeah, exactly.
So I feel like the only waypeople are opting for that
is if they're already dying.
Anyways, if you're, atthe end of your natural
lifespan, you don't havelong to live at that point.
Sure.
Whatever.
You can upload my brain atthe computer, even if it kills
me, because, Let's just hopethis gives me something right
now, but I do want to, comparethat to something, Alistair
(23:57):
Reynolds covers this in a greatnovel called house of sons.
There's a character inthis book who through
cybernetics, he slowlyaugments his brain over time.
into being basically a computer.
And it happens over the courseof 50, 60 years, and the
book goes on to say almostneuron by neuron level, where,
over his life he eventuallyjust becomes a computer.
(24:19):
His brain is goes frombeing organic to 100 percent
cybernetic, and at thatpoint he's able to transfer
his consciousness around,but the key aspect of this
version of mind uploadingis he has a continuous
stream of consciousness.
There's never this onepoint where he gets
uploaded to a computer.
It happens slowly overa long period of time.
It's like a brain of Theseus.
Lucas (24:38):
Yeah.
It's, so you're slowlytaking out little pieces,
putting them back in.
replacing them withcomponents that can take
over that part of the brain.
that is interesting, but it'shard to think about because
you can also just think thatat one point when he took out
one of those pieces and put itback in, that's when he died.
Jacob (24:56):
Yeah, I see.
I disagree.
I think at that pointit really is you.
I mean, there's no differencebecause at that point you
might argue somebody who getseven like a tiny concussion
and a single neuron dies.
You're not going to saythat's not them anymore.
So what's the difference ifyou replace that neuron with
an artificial neuron thatdoes the exact same thing
Lucas (25:13):
It's just the whole thought of what
is consciousness, right?
that, that causesissues, going from there.
But I'd definitely be morecomfortable with doing
it that way, but it'sstill the same end result.
So why would the.
why would it be different?
Jacob (25:28):
I think it's the continuity of consciousness.
Okay.
You're never going to sleepand then hoping another
version of you wakes up.
You're there forthe whole process.
Lucas (25:36):
that, that is really cool to think about, but it
also makes me feel like I wouldhave just as much faith was
with a complete upload becauseit's going into the, it's
all becoming the same thing.
You're completely replacingyour brain with a machine.
It's just one of them.
Like you said, you neverbroke consciousness, but.
Who's to say that I, wouldn'topen my eyes and still be
(25:59):
me inside of the, machinebrain that was completely.
recreated.
Does that make sense?
Jacob (26:04):
Yeah.
But I think people wouldfeel a lot more comfortable.
Lucas (26:06):
Oh, absolutely.
Jacob (26:07):
I would 100
Lucas (26:08):
percent over 60 years.
I just get to makemy brain a mortal.
Yeah.
And
Jacob (26:13):
by the end of it, you're an uploaded
artificial consciousness.
yeah.
That would be cool.
I love that solution to theproblem because I feel like
that is the best of both worlds.
You get to live on forever asan artificial consciousness,
but you're not really asmuch bringing in the question
of, is that still you?
There's still some questions,sure, but I think to a
(26:34):
lot more people, it feelslike a satisfying answer.
I still can see that being me.
I personally can stillsee that being me.
Lucas (26:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
So how would that work?
what would the architectureof a brain like that be?
Jacob (26:47):
Yeah.
one, one quick note is whenwe're talking about the
architecture of the brain isthat Even if you can design
a more efficient way for abrain to run on a computer, you
might opt for a less efficientway that mimics biology, or
mimics the current way ourbrain is set up with the neural
pathways, just to keep itstill being you, in some ways.
And as for where we're goingto run these things, there's
a couple of options, but onethat I particularly love is the
(27:11):
concept of a matrioshka brain.
Have you ever heard of that?
Are you familiarwith that at all?
I have heard of it, but,what does that end up?
Yeah.
Just to make sure thateveryone's on the same page.
a matryoshka brain is basicallyif you take a Dyson swarm.
And to those who don't know,a Dyson swarm is essentially
a bunch of solar collectorsthat you can put in orbit
around a star that will collectall that energy of a star.
(27:32):
And at that point,it's a Dyson swarm.
If it connects all thatenergy, or even if it
collects a percentage ofthat energy, we can still say
it's a partial Dyson swarm.
What makes it a Matrioshkabrain is if you then use
all of that collected energyjust to run a Dyson swarm.
a computer simulationfor artificial
uploaded intelligences.
Now you've got two options.
one of the crazy options is ifyou can use all that energy in
(27:54):
the matriarchs brain to run asingle, intelligence and have
a really super intelligentAI, or you could potentially
use all that computationalpower to run multiple human
level intelligences andmultiples doing a lot of
work there because you couldpotentially do quadrillions
of uploaded consciousnesswith this much energy and
that much computational power.
Lucas (28:13):
Yeah, it's almost like you can create an entire
galaxy of simulated events.
Jacob (28:19):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, yeah, you can havejust in one star quadrillions
of uploaded consciousness,all in the mantriuska
brain, all uploaded.
Lucas (28:27):
so why would we do that instead of having
them running on Earth?
Jacob (28:31):
Yeah, no, that's a great point.
one of the ones that I think isthe most obvious is just energy.
there's a lot more energyin our star than on Earth.
So being able to harness thefull energy of the star is just
gonna You can run more people.
you can also potentiallysee this as a way to
preserve the Earth.
Do you really want to turnthe Earth into a giant planet?
to run artificial intelligences,maybe if there's no biological
(28:51):
beings left, but, I think it'smuch more likely you want to
get them off of Earth so thatEarth can stay a pristine
thing for the biological, andyou can have the technological
civilization running, inthe cloud, so to speak.
And a final thing, and thisis the one that I think is
the most important, is bydistributing the consciousness
through, what we hundreds ofmillions of orbital satellites
(29:12):
that are orbiting the, star.
You are giving afailsafe of sorts.
You don't need to worryabout an asteroid coming in
and taking out the planetand killing quadrillions of
people, Sure, you might havesome satellites fail, but as
long as you're not running asingle consciousness on only
one satellite, it's safe.
you could potentially spread aconsciousness out over hundreds
or even thousands of satellitesof these orbital, installations.
(29:34):
That way, even losing one or twonodes isn't going to kill you
as an uploaded consciousness.
Lucas (29:38):
It would almost be like creating them as neurons.
Jacob (29:40):
Yeah, exactly.
the only catch to doinga distributed model of
consciousness like thatis the the speed of your
thoughts is going to slowdown depending on how many
nodes you try to incorporate,just due to light delay.
if you try to spread yourconsciousness out on every
single node of a Dyson swarm,a single thought for you
might take hundreds, eventhousands of years in real time.
(30:02):
vice versa though, if you canconcentrate your consciousness
into a single node, you mightbe able to experience subjective
hundreds of years in a second.
Lucas (30:10):
Yeah, but if, if that's what's happening to
quadrillions of people'sconsciousness, and that's
what they're experiencing,and it's more efficient and
safer to do it that way, itwouldn't be like experiencing
that for you because yourthoughts would be your thoughts.
So it's just in the, in theuniverse, they're taking
100 years to have a thought.
Instead of one, but thatdoesn't matter to you anymore.
Jacob (30:32):
True.
But you could stillsee situations.
potentially, if you have awhole society of uploaded
consciousness, if I needto think faster than
you, then I might have tobring my consciousness a
little more to bring your
Lucas (30:43):
satellites closer together
Jacob (30:44):
maybe not physically move the satellites, but
move the data closer togetherand make sure that I'm only
occupying satellites thatare within a certain sphere
of influence of each other.
Lucas (30:53):
Yeah.
It's I want this hexagon ofsatellites here so that I can
bounce my ideas around, withinsix months instead of 10 years.
Exactly.
And see the rich canstill have their spot.
yeah.
Jacob (31:05):
I could potentially see a situation, if you have a Dyson
swarm matrioshka brain, wherethe rich, or those who have
more material resources, areable to occupy the satellites
that are closer to the star,which gives them more energy,
lets them run their, it's calledframe jacking, lets them run
their simulated experiences at amuch higher frame rate, so they
can experience much more time.
(31:27):
relative to, let's justcall it standard time,
the galactic normal time.
So they might be able to movetheir consciousness inwards
to that matrioshka brain andhave subjective, years, in a
matter of minutes or seconds,whereas, the people who maybe
don't have as much a benefitor for whatever reason, want
to be more spread out, mighttake on the outer shells
in the matrioshka brain.
(31:47):
And for them, a subjectiveyear might actually be like
hundreds of years in real time.
So they just get to
Lucas (31:53):
experience more life.
Jacob (31:55):
Yeah.
you can 100 percent saythat's going to be more life
because if that Dyson swarmmatrioshka brain only lasts
for a certain amount oftime, there's only so much
time in the universe, right?
Yeah.
If you can run your simulationfaster, you get more of that.
Lucas (32:08):
Absolutely.
it really is just.
The fight for, I guess, wouldthat be considered health?
Jacob (32:14):
I don't know what you would call that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Health or life, I guess.
Lucas (32:20):
Yeah.
just, it's weird to say,you're buying more life
because we can't do thatright now, but that could
be a reality in the future.
Jacob (32:26):
And if you have, other uploaded consciousnesses
that you want to visit,you have to make sure your
frame rate can match theirs.
So you might have to slowyourself down if they're a
consciousness that exists on theouter shells of this, matrioshka
brain, just so that you canhave the similar, levels of.
Experience.
Lucas (32:39):
Yeah.
it's interesting to thinkabout what would the impacts
of that be on society?
Jacob (32:44):
one of the ways that I personally think would be fun
if this worked its way out isimagine if we actually kept
humans on earth as biologicalbeings, but we said, okay.
After a certain amount oftime as a biological human,
your brain can be uploadedto the matrioshka brain.
And maybe, if you can imaginein this situation, you might
have way more people existingas uploaded consciousness in
(33:06):
the matrioshka brain than thereare biological humans on earth.
But that would serve as aninteresting way to keep the
species propagating and tocreate new consciousness.
Could you make artificial ones?
Maybe, but it seems, ifyou already have the brain
uploading technology, itseems better to do it in the
biological way and then uploadconsciousness after the fact.
Yeah, but My thought is if thisis the case, if you do this, if
(33:29):
you have biological humans onearth, they live for a certain
amount of time and then afterthat time they upload themselves
to the matriarchal brain.
That's almost like aguaranteed afterlife.
Not only is it a guaranteedafterlife, but you actually
have your ancestors comingand, talking to you directly.
your mother, your grandmother,They might still come and have
conversations with you whileyou're this biological being.
Lucas (33:49):
yeah, that, that does, that sounds amazing.
it makes me question whatit would be like for.
religions at that point, they'relike, wait, would they be
like, don't follow the machine.
The machine is evil.
Jacob (34:02):
There will probably be some, people who choose not to
go this route who want to havejust the corporeal biological
experience I could 100 percentsee people saying you're denying
yourself a true afterlife.
But I think the vast majorityof people are going to
take the guaranteed thing.
Of course.
But imagine just whatthat, what would that do
for society knowing that.
There really is an afterlifeand not only is it the case
that If you're bad in this life,you're going to be judged in the
(34:25):
afterlife and you can guaranteeit but also what if you do
horrible things in this lifeand you're not only just facing
life imprisonment You couldbe either denied an afterlife.
Maybe there's certain lawsthat say if You know commit
murder or something like that.
We won't let you upload to thematrioshka brand and You're
literally just denied anafterlife Or they say, okay,
you can be uploaded, but there'sgoing to be certain punishments
(34:48):
and if you're an artificialuploaded consciousness, you can
have suffering beyond belief.
Lucas (34:53):
Yeah.
they could put you in quiteliterally any situation.
Yeah,
Jacob (34:56):
exactly.
Cause it's all artificial.
Horrific.
And not just you, they canmake a thousand copies of you
and a million copies of youand put them all in horrible
situations and really maximizethe suffering of you, depending
how much you really pissedoff your AI overlords, right?
Lucas (35:10):
that would really be something.
Yeah.
No, I feel like peoplewould definitely be on
their best behavior.
Jacob (35:17):
Yeah, I wonder what that would do to society.
I wonder how much thatwould change also the people
who are trying to gathervast amounts of wealth.
Cause it doesn't reallymatter anymore, does it?
If you're talking aboutliving hundreds of thousands,
millions of years as anoblivious consciousness,
the 50, 60 years as a humanis a blink of the eye.
So, why be greedy at all?
You should try to be I thinkmost people would just say,
(35:38):
let me do the best I can.
Lucas (35:40):
It's just like a little stepping stone.
Yeah, exactly.
It's crazy that you said,like murder because thinking
about it, what would murderbe like if you were to take
that opportunity for somebody?
Jacob (35:50):
Yeah, that's something else I was thinking about
too, We already look atmurder as a horrible,
horrendous thing to do.
And typically peoplelook at, the younger the
victim, the worse it is.
Because people, I think,measure, how bad an act
is by how much you'redenying of somebody.
Yeah.
And the younger they are, you'redenying them even more life.
You might say they nevergot a chance to live.
imagine taking the life ofsomeone who had potential
(36:12):
millions of years oflife ahead of them.
I could see the penalties forthat just becoming, harsh.
I could see that being lookedon way worse than it is today.
Lucas (36:21):
Yeah, the multi million creation of
yourself of suffering.
Yeah.
Because that, you'retalking about, You denied
the possibility for themto be uploaded into a
Matrioshka brain, you'redenying them of, you wouldn't
even see it on the span ofwhat their life could be.
Well, even
Jacob (36:38):
if they're 50, it's still, it's yeah.
Lucas (36:40):
it's like such a small amount.
Of what they couldhave experienced.
Jacob (36:44):
you know, I think I've heard, uh, there's been
some cultures that you havethis idea of not just killing
the man, but killing a soul.
It really would bejust the same thing.
Lucas (36:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It would, that, thatwould be terrible.
Now I'm thinking about that,like what would separate us in
that afterlife if we were there?
like our AI overlords, likeyou said, would they have
more access to The brain orto what they could do with
that type of technology orwould we all be on the same?
Jacob (37:09):
So you can imagine the society of upload
consciousnesses could be reallyjust the sky's the limit you can
do whatever you want Potentiallyyou would have some type of
overseer administrator Type rolenow whether that would be an
ai and artificial intelligence,or maybe that would be an
elected governance, you knowthat actually Is responsible
for picking rules that this onethat controls the physical Dyson
(37:32):
swarm of the society within it.
But it's odd to think about too,because you could have, hundreds
of thousands of millions ofdifferent societies that never
connect to each other with them.
That's a matrioshkabrain as well.
if you wanted to, you don't everhave to talk to another actual.
Uploaded mind again, youcould create your own
paradise and populate it withpresumably You know enough
(37:54):
artificial intelligence.
That's maybe not like ageneral AI but enough to
make you feel like you'recommunicating with people and
Fulfill your social needs andnever actually see another
artificial intelligence andjust live within your own Eden
Lucas (38:04):
Yeah, it would be
Jacob (38:05):
whatever you
Lucas (38:06):
wanted that life
Jacob (38:07):
to be.
Yeah, exactly.
So Yeah, the sky's the limit.
Really, you can dowhatever you want.
Now, the governance of it,that would be interesting
too, because it does occupyan actual physical space.
And presumably, someone'sgoing to need to keep up
with the maintenance of that.
Lucas (38:22):
Yeah, and the protection of that, and and all of that.
So, Perhaps in a way of payingfor itself, you have to serve
so many years in physical life.
Yeah, I could see that.
Contributing to the brain.
Jacob (38:34):
Yeah, that's the price you pay for admittance
into it is, you are as aphysical biological human,
the keeper of the Dyson swarm.
you.
Do whatever needs to bedone, help with maintenance
or, maybe help constructnew nodes that get launched
or whatever needs to bedone in the physical world.
And after you've done your partand maybe I create a new beings,
you yourself get uploaded.
Lucas (38:54):
Yeah.
And that's interestingto think about too.
would people still seek pleasurein this life or would it all
be just hard labor becausewhat's coming is infinite.
Jacob (39:07):
I mean, you've probably seen the
psychological studies, right?
If you promise somebodysomething right now or something
better in the future, mostpeople take the thing right now.
People can be really badabout delayed gratification.
So I don't think people aregoing to fully sacrifice
their biological life.
But I do think you might havea situation of a little more
temperance than some peoplein modern society have.
(39:30):
Just because, Youknow what's coming.
It's there.
You can touch it.
You can see it.
So there is somethingto look forward to.
Lucas (39:37):
Absolutely.
the
Jacob (39:38):
last thing I want to touch on, on the idea of
uploading minds to like aMatrioshka brain or even,
this applies to, AI justovertaking us, you're familiar
with the Fermi Paradox, whichis just the question of, and
we'll make a whole episodeon this, but the question of
where is all the alien life?
And like I said, we'll makea whole episode of this.
I just want to quickly touchon this because some people
(39:59):
propose this is a solutionto the Fermi Paradox.
And.
It's not, there's acouple of reasons for it.
One of the biggest onesis, to make a matrioshka
brain that already defeatsthe Fermi paradox, because
that is a mega structurethat would be observable
from alien civilizations.
So if this is what's happening,if all the civilizations are
realizing why go and explorethe stars when we can just stay
at home and make matrioshkabrain, that's still something
(40:20):
that would be observablefrom other civilizations.
And, on top of that, youstill need physical resources,
and while you can handlequadrillions of uploaded
consciousness, you can'thandle infinite of them.
So, presumably, thiscivilization would still
want to expand to other starsand spread nodes and create
more Matrioshka brains.
There's no reason theywouldn't want to expand
(40:42):
in the physical world.
they might do so slower,but they would still do it.
Lucas (40:47):
Yeah.
thinking about.
just like the great filtersof what it could be, and what
would stop people from, beingable to expand in that way.
it would make sensepeople thinking that could
be a solution, right?
that entire thought of,Oh, you can just upload
and outlive the universe.
Yeah.
but, even if they were usinglike an artificial intelligence,
creating machines to go outand expand, like you said, we
(41:09):
would still see signs of that.
Jacob (41:11):
Yeah.
even if they never lefttheir solar system, if
they just built this Thatis something we would see.
Lucas (41:16):
Yeah,
Jacob (41:16):
because it would glow really bright in
the infrared spectrum butemit no visible light.
That's the telltalesign of a Dyson swarm.
Lucas (41:22):
Yeah, just putting off all of that heat, but having
none of that, because allthat energy is being absorbed.
Yeah, that definitelymakes sense.
Jacob (41:29):
I just wanted to cover that one last part and other
than that, I don't really haveanything else to add to this.
Lucas (41:34):
Yeah, I think that was a really interesting topic.
Yeah.
It's awesome.
Lucas, thanks for being here.
Thank you for having me, Jake.
Maybe there's certain laws that say if You know commit
(00:02):
murder or something like that.
We won't let you upload to thematrioshka brand and You're
literally just denied anafterlife Or they say, okay,
you can be uploaded, but there'sgoing to be certain punishments
and if you're an artificialuploaded consciousness, you can
have suffering beyond beliefHello and welcome to Entropy
(00:27):
Rising where we talk aboutscience and futurism.
I'm your host, Jacob, and I'mhere with my co host, Lucas.
Lucas, how are you doing?
Lucas (00:33):
I'm doing great, Jake.
How are you doing today?
Jacob (00:35):
I'm doing good.
I'm really looking forwardto jumping into everything
we have to talk about today.
I did want to, real quick beforewe dive into the conversation,
I just wanted to say thankyou to everyone who's been
following us over on threads.
we're reaching almost200 followers on
threads, which is crazy.
Lucas (00:48):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Thank you, everybody.
That's awesome
Jacob (00:51):
Absolutely.
And if you've been engagingon Threads, I've been the
one that you're talking to.
so if you want to carry onthese conversations, Threads
is a great place to do it.
And if you've coming here fromThreads, welcome to the show.
Lucas (01:02):
Yeah, welcome.
Jacob (01:02):
And last thing is just thank you to everyone who's
been following the show.
We've gotten a fewsubscribers on YouTube and
some followers on Spotify.
So if that's you, you know,we really appreciate it.
And we're glad you'refollowing along to hear
what we have to say.
Lucas (01:13):
Yeah, it means the world to us.
Jacob (01:15):
Alright, let's not delay the conversation though.
this week we have someinteresting topics.
I know you specificallyreally wanted to talk
about cybernetics.
Yeah.
And I saw your list of notes.
I'm excited to hear whatyou have to say about it.
Lucas (01:26):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I just wanted todive into, the bizarre
world of, cybernetics.
Get into it a little bit, howit's changing our lives, where
it might take us in the future.
And, just imagine a worldwhere, you can be wired
to the internet or, uploadyourself into something or,
modify your body in some way.
Jacob (01:42):
For anyone who's unaware, can you give like
a quick, rundown of whatexactly is cybernetics?
Like a workingdefinition for it?
Lucas (01:47):
Absolutely.
let's break it down, right?
Cybernetics is the studyof systems that manage
and control information.
The term was firstcoined by Norbert Weiner.
In the 1940s, and it's allabout understanding how
systems, whether biologicalor mechanical communicate
and regulate themselves.
In the case of cybernetics andenhancements, we're talking
about connecting the human bodywith machines in a way that
(02:08):
allow for real time feedback.
That means devices likebrain implants, exoskeletons,
even prosthetic limbs.
That could communicate withthe nervous system, making us
more efficient and capable.
Jacob (02:19):
That makes sense.
when I think of cybernetics,I do specifically think of,
like the nervous system,like brain implants.
I guess also prosthetics,but more about how they
connect to our nervous system.
Lucas (02:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's the difference betweenjust having a plastic leg
or having something that hastactile feel and that you can
move around using your brain.
That's what separates those two.
Jacob (02:37):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
Lucas (02:39):
so I just want you to imagine this, right?
it's the near future.
you've gone througha procedure to have a
neural implant installed.
The idea is that you'll beable to enhance your cognitive
abilities, improve memory.
Process information faster andeven connect to the internet
directly with your thoughts.
But then things start to geta little bit too connected.
Jacob (02:58):
Yeah.
Lucas (02:59):
So at first everything works great.
You're more productive.
You're learning fasterand you feel like you're
finally on top of your game.
But then one day your implantstarts doing things on its own.
Sending messages, accessingdata, even controlling
your body in subtle ways.
Like suddenly your hands aretyping out emails when you're
not even thinking about it.
And it's like you havea mind of its own.
(03:19):
And you're not sureif you should be
impressed or terrified.
Jacob (03:23):
Okay, so you're making like a hypothetical
situation where I guess likethe implant starts, taking
patterns of your own behaviorand maybe overlaying them
over your, before you'reeven planning on doing it.
Lucas (03:33):
Right?
Because that would be what isputting essentially another
brain In your brain would do.
Jacob (03:40):
it makes sense.
I know there's a tick tocker.
he has a cybernetic leg and hetalks about how it literally
uses machine learning to learnhis gate and learn how he
walks and it predicts how itshould swing out and stuff just
based on this training data.
Lucas (03:53):
Yeah.
that's crazy to thinkabout, but it is like now.
We're creating these things,you know, you have neural link
that's coming out that they'rehaving advancements and that's
being able to help people whoweren't able to control their
limbs before they, connectedto your brain and directly
to your nervous system.
And suddenly using aconnection between those two,
(04:13):
you're able to manipulateyour body once more.
using that connection insteadof your actual nervous system,
Jacob (04:20):
I really do think that's going to be the true melding of
the virtual and technologicalworld with the biological.
Lucas (04:26):
Absolutely.
so here's where thingsabout cybernetics start to
get, pretty interesting.
So you imagine a futurewhere everybody has access
to cybernetic enhancements.
Suddenly you're not learningthings like reading books
or watching tutorials.
You're downloading informationdirectly into your brain.
You need to learn a newlanguage for a trip.
(04:47):
Boom.
You got it.
Jacob (04:49):
now that sounds nice in and of itself.
Lucas (04:51):
Yeah.
but the list can go on and onwith what you can do, right?
You want to ace a bigpresentation done.
You can learn how todo public speaking.
You can have it completelytake over, get rid of
all that social anxiety.
You can have it pump differenthormones or stimulants into your
body, whatever you would need.
To be able to performthat action at a hundred
percent efficiency.
Jacob (05:11):
that would also cure a lot of mental illness.
Lucas (05:13):
Absolutely.
you could have it to whereit regulates, everything
in your body, you wantto be a lower weight, you
want to be more muscular.
you want to be ableto go out and be more
charismatic, everythingexcept for your appearance.
and even that can bemodified in the future, but
that's a different topic.
But, uh, cybernetics canessentially do that for you.
Jacob (05:34):
That's crazy.
Cause I really only thoughtabout it in terms of just
a brain computer interface,not changing other aspects
of how your body functions.
Lucas (05:40):
Yeah.
it really is a crazy.
world to think about,where whatever problem you
could be facing mentally,you can overcome that.
And then of course thereis the physical people
who have disabilities or.
who have, lost limbs fromcertain things, they can
be replaced with machinesthat, link up with your brain
(06:00):
and it can be seamless, thetransition between the two.
Jacob (06:04):
the biggest one I think of is like paralysis,
which we saw the first patientwho received a neuro link
implant, was quadriplegic.
And that, I can't imaginethe quality of life
improvement that has to be.
Lucas (06:13):
it has to be incredible.
It's hard to think about.
What it would be like to notbe able to use your limbs, to
not be able to use your legsor your arms, and essentially
just be trapped in your head.
And then, it's unfathomableto think about what it
would be like to get thatback after that time.
Jacob (06:31):
Yeah, even just a basal level of connection, to be
able to control a computeragain, it's just huge.
Lucas (06:36):
It absolutely is.
Jacob (06:37):
I guess one of my biggest questions, something we've
touched on a little bit onthe show, is how is that going
to affect society if everyonehas access to this technology?
Lucas (06:44):
It's a great question.
So picture this, right?
Your implant connects toa vast network of data.
And in the middle of aconversation, you're able to
pull up the history of thetopic you're discussing, every
scientific fact, every famousquote, every counterpoint, and
then what happens to the valueof human creativity, right?
Do we lose the need forindependent thought if all the
(07:05):
knowledge we could ever need isalways available in our heads?
Jacob (07:09):
Ooh, this is actually reminding me, I don't if I
feel like I bring this authorup every single episode,
but Alistair Reynolds.
there's a subset of humanityin his, revelation space
novels called the ca joiners,who essentially have brain to
brain connection, and they'reinterconnected in this hive of
humanity, and they can shareentire concepts to each other.
They don't use, theythink talking is too slow.
(07:31):
They can basically just beam anentire concept to someone else.
Yeah.
Lucas (07:35):
like thinking about that, will we lose part of
ourselves, And doing that,cause that sounds amazing at
first, but it's almost likea similar thing with, shorts,
like it's just skippingstuff or not really skipping,
but just compressing right.
Information being able tosend that to each other
and just immediately havethat you sort of lose the.
(07:56):
the feeling that you getwith having an in depth
Jacob (07:58):
conversation with somebody, or is it going
to be more in depth?
something that they explorein that same book series is
that they feel like talkingto somebody, you can't convey
the same depth of knowledgeand experience that you can
through this direct brain tobrain connection, because I'm
not just sending you my words.
I can send you my thoughts,my emotions, my point
of view on a topic.
So maybe it'll allow foreven better communication.
(08:20):
It
Lucas (08:20):
definitely could.
I mean, going in the oppositedirection, people have always
said that a lot of times, whenyou're having a conversation
with someone and it's reallyemotional, I myself, I get
lost with words, right?
They can't conveyhow I'm feeling.
So you're right.
It can go in the otherdirection and really create
an even stronger connectionthrough that conversation or
(08:42):
whatever we would call it.
the sharing of that concept, butthat is a very interesting idea.
and on the flip side, rightnow, think about the job market.
A cybernetic enhancementbecomes more widespread.
The bar for what's considerednormal might shift.
If someone has a cognitiveimplant that lets them learn
complex tasks instantly,suddenly it's not about
(09:03):
who can learn the fastest.
But who can think the mostcritically or innovatively?
Cybernetics would level theplaying field in some ways,
but it could also create aneven more competitive society.
If you're not enhanced,do you fall behind?
Jacob (09:16):
That is a fair point.
I mean, this is kind of the sameethical dilemma that comes up
with things like gene editing.
if you have the money to makeyour offspring have better
genes so they can performbetter, that gives them an
unfair advantage in life.
And especially with cybernetics,if presumably when this is a
new technology, it is goingto be fairly expensive.
So if I can pay to have acompetitive advantage to you,
(09:37):
that's, yeah, that's, there's alot of ethical dilemmas there.
Lucas (09:40):
Absolutely.
I feel like the only waythat it would really be You
know, acceptable as if itwas available to everyone.
Yeah,
Jacob (09:48):
but it's going to be expensive at first.
I imagine, of course, maybea long way down the road
cybernetics are consideredA normal thing everyone has
access to them But I feel likeeven then there's a potential
that you might have, youknow The b grade cybernetics
and I might have the moreexpensive ones that allow Maybe
faster cognitive ability, Ican reason faster than you
(10:08):
gives me a wider access toinformation, or maybe I can
retrieve that information at afaster rate than you and still
gives me a competitive edge.
Lucas (10:16):
I feel like there has to be that competitive edge.
There has to be somethingthat people are driving.
To push forward, to be ableto, one up the guy next to you.
I feel like that is, although,it's cruel to the people that
aren't at that top level.
It's needed in a societyto be able to drive people.
Jacob (10:33):
But I feel like, in our society, that drive is it more
or less levels the playingfield and you might have more
money than me, but I can still.
Study math, study physics, and,I'll perform you if I really,
dive into it, or at leastthere's this thought that I can.
But with cybernetics, youcan literally just pay
to be smarter than me.
Yeah! Yeah!If I don't have the money,
and there's nothing I can, itdoesn't matter how much studying
(10:54):
I can do, if you can pay tothink twice as fast as I can.
Lucas (10:58):
maybe the first ones that come out, like the
first cybernetic implants,they'll be on a lower level,
but that'll advance quickly.
And that gap between whatthey can and can't do will
become smaller and smaller.
Jacob (11:09):
That is true.
I mean, over the courseof hundreds of years,
presumably, it'll be almostlike smartphones, or even
some basic model smartphones.
They'll do all thethings a new one can do.
I imagine with cybernetics,it'll probably be
a similar trend.
Lucas (11:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, um, talking about thefuture, let's say everyone
is walking around with someform of neural implant.
This can mean that your brainis, constantly analyzing
emotions, behaviors, andeven interactions with other
people, which is crazy.
Yeah, that
Jacob (11:38):
is kind of wild to think about.
Lucas (11:39):
think about how that might change dating, right?
Let's say that you're out withsomeone and they're wearing
a neural interface too.
They can literallyread your emotions.
And in turn, youcan read theirs.
Every awkward pause or unspokenthought would be laid bare.
Jacob (11:57):
Yeah.
I feel like you wouldalmost need to have some
sort of neural, block.
a certain level that peoplejust can't see into without you
granting it permission, almostlike with like iPhones, right?
You can, turn off read receipts.
I feel like you would needthat for your, your implants.
So people can't seecertain levels of your
emotion or something.
Lucas (12:12):
Absolutely.
I mean, especially talking aboutlike with people that you're
trying to court, right, in a wayit would almost be the polite
thing to do in the future isallow for someone to have that.
I don't want to say shame,but that privacy of emotion.
Yeah,
Jacob (12:28):
exactly.
That might be the sign of atrusting relationship is like,
Oh yeah, I don't, he doesn'tshare his emotion with me.
Not like in the toxic waythat happens today, but
like on a literal level ofno, he, that's blocked off.
I can't just read his mind.
I actually have to askhim what's going on.
Yeah.
But that also does open thedoor to a lot of, potential,
abuse situations, if you forcesomebody to have their mind
(12:48):
laid bare to you, so you cansee every single thought, how
could they even think abouttrying to escape that situation?
And not only on the domesticfront, but even in a corporate
world, what if your employerforces you to keep a certain
level of that open to them?
So they know maybe even assoon as you know, that you
want to leave that job.
Yeah.
Lucas (13:05):
I mean that ties into what, some people
view as could be dystopian.
Jacob (13:09):
I, yeah, that definitely could be dystopian and it
might be necessary that, Evenif these technologies can
allow that level of depth andunderstanding, the manufacturer
might have to lock that offbecause even giving people
the option to do that, if theypersonally would want to, could
put other people in such anawkward position that it's just
like, we're just going to lockthat off and let no one have it.
Lucas (13:29):
Yeah.
I mean, just imagine the stressthat you would feel going into
a date or a workplace and you'relike, okay, my entire self.
is on display immediately,the anxiety would be crazy.
But then of course, you couldhave a cybernetic implant
that reduces your anxiety.
Jacob (13:48):
Yeah.
at
Lucas (13:49):
that
Jacob (13:49):
point
Lucas (13:49):
though, how much of that is still you?
Exactly.
Exactly.
It's almost like you, youare trading your humanity.
For, being what societyviews is better.
Jacob (13:59):
I will say if you like this topic, you really should
consider reading the revelationspace series, specifically
the parts of that have to dowith the conjoiners, because
that's all their society isthe super connected hive mind,
almost you still function as anindividual within that society.
But there is this almost layerabove the corporeal world
where it's just like this webof thought and experience.
(14:21):
And, the conjoiners in thisbook, that's the name for the
people in the society, theydo not do well by themselves.
They need to beconnected to this.
It almost be like takingsomeone, like a kid today and
getting rid of the internet,but times a hundred, they feel
very disconnected and isolated.
And, I love the way thisauthor does stuff because it
sounds very dystopian and verymuch like the Borg from Star
Trek, but by all accounts,anyone who enters into this
(14:44):
subset of humanity loves it.
And it never wants to go back.
Lucas (14:49):
Yeah, but is it still them?
If they'd entered in?
That is
Jacob (14:53):
the open question in the book.
It's can I trustthat to still be you?
Because your mind's connectedto everyone else all the time.
Lucas (14:58):
Yeah, it reminds me of of a book I read.
I can't rememberthe title of it.
But it's essentiallywhen you turn 16.
you go and you'remade beautiful.
there's a surgery that youget to be beautiful and pretty
much the struggle betweenthe book is that to become
beautiful, they essentiallycut out a part of you, like
(15:19):
your cognitive thinking.
it was really interestingcause it relates to this a lot.
Now, of course for themit was physical beauty,
but it's the same idea.
You would be losing a pieceof yourself to be able to join
in on a gestalt consciousness.
Jacob (15:31):
Yeah, exactly.
I, for one would probably do it.
Lucas (15:34):
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, you know,just because I'm a huge tech
buff, like I bring it on.
Yeah, exactly.
But I can definitelysee where it would.
make me sad to losethat piece of myself.
But at the same time, onceyou're there, it doesn't matter.
It's the same thing.
Like when you're dead, Yeah.
We don't want to die, but whenyou're dead, it doesn't matter.
Jacob (15:54):
And would you be sad?
Cause you can take theinfluence can make you happy.
So I guess that's thehypothetical question.
It's a little philosophical,but would you rather be sad,
but no, that's true sadnessin your true self, or just be
happy and live in bliss, but.
have the notion,that's not truly you.
Lucas (16:10):
that's hard, right?
Because, because it's, is it
Jacob (16:13):
me?
I'm going to take being happy.
I don't see the downside.
Lucas (16:16):
Yeah.
but is it you reallybeing happy anymore?
Imagine not being able tohave your individual thought.
Yeah.
Jacob (16:22):
Now that's yeah, that's another
Lucas (16:24):
level of extreme, but right.
but I do under, I woulddefinitely take blissful
happiness, especially ifit could be for everyone,
because there's a lot morepeople in this world that
are miserable than the.
Happy, right?
if us all being happy,but losing a little bit
of ourselves, I feel likethat would be something
that's worth it to getrid of all that misery.
(16:44):
But if it's selective.
I don't know how it would react.
I it's a hardquestion to ponder.
Jacob (16:50):
That's true.
I think we've gone a littleoff the rails though,
from cybernetics, maybe.
Lucas (16:53):
Yeah, we did.
okay.
So let's go into theethics of cybernetics.
Jacob (16:57):
Yeah.
Lucas (16:58):
so getting serious for a second.
One of the biggest concernswith the rise of cybernetics
is the ethics behind it.
What happens when only thewealthy can afford brain
implants or body enhancements?
You're already starting to seethe divide in things like access
to healthcare and education.
Could cybernetic enhancementsbecome another tool for
the rich to get ahead?
(17:18):
Leaving the restof society behind.
So touching on that,and then there's the
issue of consent, right?
If everybody's gettingupgrades, how do we
decide what's too much?
Jacob (17:30):
Okay.
when you say consent, I assumeif everyone's getting upgrades,
do they not have the option?
Lucas (17:35):
is it okay to enhance someone's brain to the
point where they lose theirown sense of identity?
What happens, when AI startsto take over decisions, making
for people, we're entering aworld where the lines between
humanity and technology aregoing to get blurred, and fast.
Jacob (17:50):
I got you.
when it comes to, you'retalking about the consent side
of it, I feel like a personneeds to have control over
the cybernetics they have.
But imagine a world,where you, you come out.
And you get animplant, you're saying.
this is not happeningin your lifetime.
This is already, thetransition to cybernext
has already happened.
You're born into this worldand it's, it just gets put
(18:12):
into you at a young age.
Exactly.
Like it just happened.
It's
Lucas (18:16):
like at age five, you get your first implant to be able to
communicate with your friends.
Jacob (18:21):
Makes me think about kind of social media now,
where you have kids who aregetting social media accounts
made for them at a young ageand they grow up with it.
Lucas (18:28):
Yeah, you can definitely see it that way, right?
And those kids could bemore socially adept or
it could be worse off.
We really don't know yet,but the kids with cybernetic
implants, they're going tobe ahead in school, right?
They're going to be aheadsocially because they
can communicate better.
They'll be able to startreading emotions better.
there'll be betterat public speaking.
So is it really a choice ordo you have to do that for
(18:52):
your child just that theycan make it in the world?
Jacob (18:55):
I can say, yeah, that's a huge ethical question.
It's not just goingto be for children.
It's going to be for people.
It's almost like havinga smartphone today.
I can opt not to be on theinternet and have a smartphone,
but I'm not going to be ableto get a job, but times 10,
because now we're talkingabout an invasive, piece of
technology that's going to beincorporated into your brain.
So you.
Ethically, if you havethe option not to opt into
this technology, but itostracizes you from society,
(19:19):
is that really an option?
I don't think that's an option.
I mean, yeah, it's not,
Lucas (19:22):
but that, again is I think that's an
ethical issue, right?
Because at that point,then why not just put the
implants into the embryos?
Jacob (19:29):
Yeah.
Lucas (19:30):
like just have the machine grow within
because it could be.
like a biomass that isessentially an implant that
programmed to grow in acertain way and accept the
implant and build onto it,
Jacob (19:42):
funny enough, as the extreme option, that might be
the more egalitarian optionif everyone's got it and then
no one had to say so, maybethat's just the way to go.
I say, you know what, Let'sremove the ethics of choice
and just say everyone gets itand everyone gets the same one.
We're all on the same level.
We all get to enjoythis blissful happiness.
Is it you?
What does it matter?
What was you withoutthis if you've had it
since an embryo anyways?
Lucas (20:02):
Yeah, but that's how ethics is, right?
It never matters for the Peoplethat are going into it, it
matters for the people makingthe decisions to do that.
So for us not growing up withthose implants and people,
fearing what that could belike, how their offspring will
no longer be like them in away they're going to live a
completely different life.
(20:22):
it's hard to make that decisionand that's where those ethics
really come in because forthose people who a hundred
years in the future havealready been, they're the
fifth, sixth generation thathas had this happen to them.
It's not going to matterto them because that's
what they know now.
Jacob (20:36):
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I don't have anethical answer for that.
Lucas (20:38):
Yeah, it's hard, right?
But it could bethe future, right?
It could be, like you said,the egalitarian way, offering
that to everybody might bebetter than it being a selective
choice for only the rich.
Yeah.
Only the people thatfeel like they deserve
Jacob (20:52):
it.
Because that isthe issue I have.
This is just going tobenefit rich people and
widen the gap between thehaves and the have nots.
Lucas (20:58):
realistically, I just don't see a future.
I see a future whereeverybody might have them.
But the rich willalways have it.
Jacob (21:06):
Yeah, seems to be the case.
Lucas (21:07):
Yeah.
All right.
So, um, you know, pretty much,the future of cybernetics, it's
exciting, a little, unnerving,but we could all be walking
around with enhancementsthat make us faster, smarter,
healthier, maybe even moreemotionally intelligent, right?
But let's face it, none ofus are ready for the day when
our toaster starts, offering,unsolicited relationship advice.
Jacob (21:29):
Hey, as long as it's good advice.
I guess so.
Yeah.
Um, well, something I thinkthat is closely related
to cybernetics, and we'vedefinitely already touched
on small parts of it in theearlier discussion, is going to
be the idea of mind uploading.
Lucas (21:42):
Oh yeah.
I know that you wereexcited about that.
Jacob (21:44):
Yeah.
it's almost like takingcybernetics, I think,
to its logical extreme.
It's not just augmenting thehuman brain with technology.
It's running the humanbrain on technology.
Lucas (21:55):
Now, when you say running the human brain on
technology, can you give mea little bit of an in depth
thought of how that would work?
Jacob (22:02):
yeah, absolutely.
Actually, before we go intothe mechanics of it though, one
of the, I feel like elephantsin the room that we should,
discuss with mind uploadingis actually a little bit of
the philosophy behind it.
I don't want to dive into thistoo much, but I actually did
run a poll on our threads askingif you upload your brain to a
computer, is that still you?
(22:22):
And it seemed likea, an open question.
Overwhelming majority of thepeople said that is not you
anymore, that is a copy of you.
And I definitely get why peoplefeel like that, and in many
ways I feel like that too.
So I think, I just want todispel this notion of, you
see it in science fictionall the time, you put on a
cap, you download your braininto a computer, and now,
you can live on forever inthis technological utopia.
(22:43):
That's realistically not goingto be how this works, because
if you try to upload a copy ofyour brain onto a computer, I
don't think that's you anymore.
Lucas (22:50):
So what if you were to do that, but there was no
longer like you and your body?
Jacob (22:57):
Yeah.
So it's the idea of if youupload a copy in your brain,
but the upload process killsthe original, you know?
Okay, so, at that point, youknow, it's almost like the
Star Trek, teleporter, thing.
Isn't that still you?
for all intents and purposes,sure, you could call that you,
but I still think it's thesame thing as, the you and
your body dying so that anotherversion of you can live on.
(23:18):
Now, if that's the only option,I could see people opting
for that at the end of theirnatural lives anyways, but I
don't think many people aregoing to be able to do that
in their twenties, right?
Lucas (23:27):
no, because it would still be, it would
be scary because in a wayyou're dying and you're just
crossing your fingers open,man, whatever consciousness
is that transferred over.
Jacob (23:37):
Yeah, exactly.
So I feel like the only waypeople are opting for that
is if they're already dying.
Anyways, if you're, atthe end of your natural
lifespan, you don't havelong to live at that point.
Sure.
Whatever.
You can upload my brain atthe computer, even if it kills
me, because, Let's just hopethis gives me something right
now, but I do want to, comparethat to something, Alistair
(23:57):
Reynolds covers this in a greatnovel called house of sons.
There's a character inthis book who through
cybernetics, he slowlyaugments his brain over time.
into being basically a computer.
And it happens over the courseof 50, 60 years, and the
book goes on to say almostneuron by neuron level, where,
over his life he eventuallyjust becomes a computer.
(24:19):
His brain is goes frombeing organic to 100 percent
cybernetic, and at thatpoint he's able to transfer
his consciousness around,but the key aspect of this
version of mind uploadingis he has a continuous
stream of consciousness.
There's never this onepoint where he gets
uploaded to a computer.
It happens slowly overa long period of time.
It's like a brain of Theseus.
Lucas (24:38):
Yeah.
It's, so you're slowlytaking out little pieces,
putting them back in.
replacing them withcomponents that can take
over that part of the brain.
that is interesting, but it'shard to think about because
you can also just think thatat one point when he took out
one of those pieces and put itback in, that's when he died.
Jacob (24:56):
Yeah, I see.
I disagree.
I think at that pointit really is you.
I mean, there's no differencebecause at that point you
might argue somebody who getseven like a tiny concussion
and a single neuron dies.
You're not going to saythat's not them anymore.
So what's the difference ifyou replace that neuron with
an artificial neuron thatdoes the exact same thing
Lucas (25:13):
It's just the whole thought of what
is consciousness, right?
that, that causesissues, going from there.
But I'd definitely be morecomfortable with doing
it that way, but it'sstill the same end result.
So why would the.
why would it be different?
Jacob (25:28):
I think it's the continuity of consciousness.
Okay.
You're never going to sleepand then hoping another
version of you wakes up.
You're there forthe whole process.
Lucas (25:36):
that, that is really cool to think about, but it
also makes me feel like I wouldhave just as much faith was
with a complete upload becauseit's going into the, it's
all becoming the same thing.
You're completely replacingyour brain with a machine.
It's just one of them.
Like you said, you neverbroke consciousness, but.
Who's to say that I, wouldn'topen my eyes and still be
(25:59):
me inside of the, machinebrain that was completely.
recreated.
Does that make sense?
Jacob (26:04):
Yeah.
But I think people wouldfeel a lot more comfortable.
Lucas (26:06):
Oh, absolutely.
Jacob (26:07):
I would 100
Lucas (26:08):
percent over 60 years.
I just get to makemy brain a mortal.
Yeah.
And
Jacob (26:13):
by the end of it, you're an uploaded
artificial consciousness.
yeah.
That would be cool.
I love that solution to theproblem because I feel like
that is the best of both worlds.
You get to live on forever asan artificial consciousness,
but you're not really asmuch bringing in the question
of, is that still you?
There's still some questions,sure, but I think to a
(26:34):
lot more people, it feelslike a satisfying answer.
I still can see that being me.
I personally can stillsee that being me.
Lucas (26:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
So how would that work?
what would the architectureof a brain like that be?
Jacob (26:47):
Yeah.
one, one quick note is whenwe're talking about the
architecture of the brain isthat Even if you can design
a more efficient way for abrain to run on a computer, you
might opt for a less efficientway that mimics biology, or
mimics the current way ourbrain is set up with the neural
pathways, just to keep itstill being you, in some ways.
And as for where we're goingto run these things, there's
a couple of options, but onethat I particularly love is the
(27:11):
concept of a matrioshka brain.
Have you ever heard of that?
Are you familiarwith that at all?
I have heard of it, but,what does that end up?
Yeah.
Just to make sure thateveryone's on the same page.
a matryoshka brain is basicallyif you take a Dyson swarm.
And to those who don't know,a Dyson swarm is essentially
a bunch of solar collectorsthat you can put in orbit
around a star that will collectall that energy of a star.
(27:32):
And at that point,it's a Dyson swarm.
If it connects all thatenergy, or even if it
collects a percentage ofthat energy, we can still say
it's a partial Dyson swarm.
What makes it a Matrioshkabrain is if you then use
all of that collected energyjust to run a Dyson swarm.
a computer simulationfor artificial
uploaded intelligences.
Now you've got two options.
one of the crazy options is ifyou can use all that energy in
(27:54):
the matriarchs brain to run asingle, intelligence and have
a really super intelligentAI, or you could potentially
use all that computationalpower to run multiple human
level intelligences andmultiples doing a lot of
work there because you couldpotentially do quadrillions
of uploaded consciousnesswith this much energy and
that much computational power.
Lucas (28:13):
Yeah, it's almost like you can create an entire
galaxy of simulated events.
Jacob (28:19):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, yeah, you can havejust in one star quadrillions
of uploaded consciousness,all in the mantriuska
brain, all uploaded.
Lucas (28:27):
so why would we do that instead of having
them running on Earth?
Jacob (28:31):
Yeah, no, that's a great point.
one of the ones that I think isthe most obvious is just energy.
there's a lot more energyin our star than on Earth.
So being able to harness thefull energy of the star is just
gonna You can run more people.
you can also potentiallysee this as a way to
preserve the Earth.
Do you really want to turnthe Earth into a giant planet?
to run artificial intelligences,maybe if there's no biological
(28:51):
beings left, but, I think it'smuch more likely you want to
get them off of Earth so thatEarth can stay a pristine
thing for the biological, andyou can have the technological
civilization running, inthe cloud, so to speak.
And a final thing, and thisis the one that I think is
the most important, is bydistributing the consciousness
through, what we hundreds ofmillions of orbital satellites
(29:12):
that are orbiting the, star.
You are giving afailsafe of sorts.
You don't need to worryabout an asteroid coming in
and taking out the planetand killing quadrillions of
people, Sure, you might havesome satellites fail, but as
long as you're not running asingle consciousness on only
one satellite, it's safe.
you could potentially spread aconsciousness out over hundreds
or even thousands of satellitesof these orbital, installations.
(29:34):
That way, even losing one or twonodes isn't going to kill you
as an uploaded consciousness.
Lucas (29:38):
It would almost be like creating them as neurons.
Jacob (29:40):
Yeah, exactly.
the only catch to doinga distributed model of
consciousness like thatis the the speed of your
thoughts is going to slowdown depending on how many
nodes you try to incorporate,just due to light delay.
if you try to spread yourconsciousness out on every
single node of a Dyson swarm,a single thought for you
might take hundreds, eventhousands of years in real time.
(30:02):
vice versa though, if you canconcentrate your consciousness
into a single node, you mightbe able to experience subjective
hundreds of years in a second.
Lucas (30:10):
Yeah, but if, if that's what's happening to
quadrillions of people'sconsciousness, and that's
what they're experiencing,and it's more efficient and
safer to do it that way, itwouldn't be like experiencing
that for you because yourthoughts would be your thoughts.
So it's just in the, in theuniverse, they're taking
100 years to have a thought.
Instead of one, but thatdoesn't matter to you anymore.
Jacob (30:32):
True.
But you could stillsee situations.
potentially, if you have awhole society of uploaded
consciousness, if I needto think faster than
you, then I might have tobring my consciousness a
little more to bring your
Lucas (30:43):
satellites closer together
Jacob (30:44):
maybe not physically move the satellites, but
move the data closer togetherand make sure that I'm only
occupying satellites thatare within a certain sphere
of influence of each other.
Lucas (30:53):
Yeah.
It's I want this hexagon ofsatellites here so that I can
bounce my ideas around, withinsix months instead of 10 years.
Exactly.
And see the rich canstill have their spot.
yeah.
Jacob (31:05):
I could potentially see a situation, if you have a Dyson
swarm matrioshka brain, wherethe rich, or those who have
more material resources, areable to occupy the satellites
that are closer to the star,which gives them more energy,
lets them run their, it's calledframe jacking, lets them run
their simulated experiences at amuch higher frame rate, so they
can experience much more time.
(31:27):
relative to, let's justcall it standard time,
the galactic normal time.
So they might be able to movetheir consciousness inwards
to that matrioshka brain andhave subjective, years, in a
matter of minutes or seconds,whereas, the people who maybe
don't have as much a benefitor for whatever reason, want
to be more spread out, mighttake on the outer shells
in the matrioshka brain.
(31:47):
And for them, a subjectiveyear might actually be like
hundreds of years in real time.
So they just get to
Lucas (31:53):
experience more life.
Jacob (31:55):
Yeah.
you can 100 percent saythat's going to be more life
because if that Dyson swarmmatrioshka brain only lasts
for a certain amount oftime, there's only so much
time in the universe, right?
Yeah.
If you can run your simulationfaster, you get more of that.
Lucas (32:08):
Absolutely.
it really is just.
The fight for, I guess, wouldthat be considered health?
Jacob (32:14):
I don't know what you would call that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Health or life, I guess.
Lucas (32:20):
Yeah.
just, it's weird to say,you're buying more life
because we can't do thatright now, but that could
be a reality in the future.
Jacob (32:26):
And if you have, other uploaded consciousnesses
that you want to visit,you have to make sure your
frame rate can match theirs.
So you might have to slowyourself down if they're a
consciousness that exists on theouter shells of this, matrioshka
brain, just so that you canhave the similar, levels of.
Experience.
Lucas (32:39):
Yeah.
it's interesting to thinkabout what would the impacts
of that be on society?
Jacob (32:44):
one of the ways that I personally think would be fun
if this worked its way out isimagine if we actually kept
humans on earth as biologicalbeings, but we said, okay.
After a certain amount oftime as a biological human,
your brain can be uploadedto the matrioshka brain.
And maybe, if you can imaginein this situation, you might
have way more people existingas uploaded consciousness in
(33:06):
the matrioshka brain than thereare biological humans on earth.
But that would serve as aninteresting way to keep the
species propagating and tocreate new consciousness.
Could you make artificial ones?
Maybe, but it seems, ifyou already have the brain
uploading technology, itseems better to do it in the
biological way and then uploadconsciousness after the fact.
Yeah, but My thought is if thisis the case, if you do this, if
(33:29):
you have biological humans onearth, they live for a certain
amount of time and then afterthat time they upload themselves
to the matriarchal brain.
That's almost like aguaranteed afterlife.
Not only is it a guaranteedafterlife, but you actually
have your ancestors comingand, talking to you directly.
your mother, your grandmother,They might still come and have
conversations with you whileyou're this biological being.
Lucas (33:49):
yeah, that, that does, that sounds amazing.
it makes me question whatit would be like for.
religions at that point, they'relike, wait, would they be
like, don't follow the machine.
The machine is evil.
Jacob (34:02):
There will probably be some, people who choose not to
go this route who want to havejust the corporeal biological
experience I could 100 percentsee people saying you're denying
yourself a true afterlife.
But I think the vast majorityof people are going to
take the guaranteed thing.
Of course.
But imagine just whatthat, what would that do
for society knowing that.
There really is an afterlifeand not only is it the case
that If you're bad in this life,you're going to be judged in the
(34:25):
afterlife and you can guaranteeit but also what if you do
horrible things in this lifeand you're not only just facing
life imprisonment You couldbe either denied an afterlife.
Maybe there's certain lawsthat say if You know commit
murder or something like that.
We won't let you upload to thematrioshka brand and You're
literally just denied anafterlife Or they say, okay,
you can be uploaded, but there'sgoing to be certain punishments
(34:48):
and if you're an artificialuploaded consciousness, you can
have suffering beyond belief.
Lucas (34:53):
Yeah.
they could put you in quiteliterally any situation.
Yeah,
Jacob (34:56):
exactly.
Cause it's all artificial.
Horrific.
And not just you, they canmake a thousand copies of you
and a million copies of youand put them all in horrible
situations and really maximizethe suffering of you, depending
how much you really pissedoff your AI overlords, right?
Lucas (35:10):
that would really be something.
Yeah.
No, I feel like peoplewould definitely be on
their best behavior.
Jacob (35:17):
Yeah, I wonder what that would do to society.
I wonder how much thatwould change also the people
who are trying to gathervast amounts of wealth.
Cause it doesn't reallymatter anymore, does it?
If you're talking aboutliving hundreds of thousands,
millions of years as anoblivious consciousness,
the 50, 60 years as a humanis a blink of the eye.
So, why be greedy at all?
You should try to be I thinkmost people would just say,
(35:38):
let me do the best I can.
Lucas (35:40):
It's just like a little stepping stone.
Yeah, exactly.
It's crazy that you said,like murder because thinking
about it, what would murderbe like if you were to take
that opportunity for somebody?
Jacob (35:50):
Yeah, that's something else I was thinking about
too, We already look atmurder as a horrible,
horrendous thing to do.
And typically peoplelook at, the younger the
victim, the worse it is.
Because people, I think,measure, how bad an act
is by how much you'redenying of somebody.
Yeah.
And the younger they are, you'redenying them even more life.
You might say they nevergot a chance to live.
imagine taking the life ofsomeone who had potential
(36:12):
millions of years oflife ahead of them.
I could see the penalties forthat just becoming, harsh.
I could see that being lookedon way worse than it is today.
Lucas (36:21):
Yeah, the multi million creation of
yourself of suffering.
Yeah.
Because that, you'retalking about, You denied
the possibility for themto be uploaded into a
Matrioshka brain, you'redenying them of, you wouldn't
even see it on the span ofwhat their life could be.
Well, even
Jacob (36:38):
if they're 50, it's still, it's yeah.
Lucas (36:40):
it's like such a small amount.
Of what they couldhave experienced.
Jacob (36:44):
you know, I think I've heard, uh, there's been
some cultures that you havethis idea of not just killing
the man, but killing a soul.
It really would bejust the same thing.
Lucas (36:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It would, that, thatwould be terrible.
Now I'm thinking about that,like what would separate us in
that afterlife if we were there?
like our AI overlords, likeyou said, would they have
more access to The brain orto what they could do with
that type of technology orwould we all be on the same?
Jacob (37:09):
So you can imagine the society of upload
consciousnesses could be reallyjust the sky's the limit you can
do whatever you want Potentiallyyou would have some type of
overseer administrator Type rolenow whether that would be an
ai and artificial intelligence,or maybe that would be an
elected governance, you knowthat actually Is responsible
for picking rules that this onethat controls the physical Dyson
(37:32):
swarm of the society within it.
But it's odd to think about too,because you could have, hundreds
of thousands of millions ofdifferent societies that never
connect to each other with them.
That's a matrioshkabrain as well.
if you wanted to, you don't everhave to talk to another actual.
Uploaded mind again, youcould create your own
paradise and populate it withpresumably You know enough
(37:54):
artificial intelligence.
That's maybe not like ageneral AI but enough to
make you feel like you'recommunicating with people and
Fulfill your social needs andnever actually see another
artificial intelligence andjust live within your own Eden
Lucas (38:04):
Yeah, it would be
Jacob (38:05):
whatever you
Lucas (38:06):
wanted that life
Jacob (38:07):
to be.
Yeah, exactly.
So Yeah, the sky's the limit.
Really, you can dowhatever you want.
Now, the governance of it,that would be interesting
too, because it does occupyan actual physical space.
And presumably, someone'sgoing to need to keep up
with the maintenance of that.
Lucas (38:22):
Yeah, and the protection of that, and and all of that.
So, Perhaps in a way of payingfor itself, you have to serve
so many years in physical life.
Yeah, I could see that.
Contributing to the brain.
Jacob (38:34):
Yeah, that's the price you pay for admittance
into it is, you are as aphysical biological human,
the keeper of the Dyson swarm.
you.
Do whatever needs to bedone, help with maintenance
or, maybe help constructnew nodes that get launched
or whatever needs to bedone in the physical world.
And after you've done your partand maybe I create a new beings,
you yourself get uploaded.
Lucas (38:54):
Yeah.
And that's interestingto think about too.
would people still seek pleasurein this life or would it all
be just hard labor becausewhat's coming is infinite.
Jacob (39:07):
I mean, you've probably seen the
psychological studies, right?
If you promise somebodysomething right now or something
better in the future, mostpeople take the thing right now.
People can be really badabout delayed gratification.
So I don't think people aregoing to fully sacrifice
their biological life.
But I do think you might havea situation of a little more
temperance than some peoplein modern society have.
(39:30):
Just because, Youknow what's coming.
It's there.
You can touch it.
You can see it.
So there is somethingto look forward to.
Lucas (39:37):
Absolutely.
the
Jacob (39:38):
last thing I want to touch on, on the idea of
uploading minds to like aMatrioshka brain or even,
this applies to, AI justovertaking us, you're familiar
with the Fermi Paradox, whichis just the question of, and
we'll make a whole episodeon this, but the question of
where is all the alien life?
And like I said, we'll makea whole episode of this.
I just want to quickly touchon this because some people
(39:59):
propose this is a solutionto the Fermi Paradox.
And.
It's not, there's acouple of reasons for it.
One of the biggest onesis, to make a matrioshka
brain that already defeatsthe Fermi paradox, because
that is a mega structurethat would be observable
from alien civilizations.
So if this is what's happening,if all the civilizations are
realizing why go and explorethe stars when we can just stay
at home and make matrioshkabrain, that's still something
(40:20):
that would be observablefrom other civilizations.
And, on top of that, youstill need physical resources,
and while you can handlequadrillions of uploaded
consciousness, you can'thandle infinite of them.
So, presumably, thiscivilization would still
want to expand to other starsand spread nodes and create
more Matrioshka brains.
There's no reason theywouldn't want to expand
(40:42):
in the physical world.
they might do so slower,but they would still do it.
Lucas (40:47):
Yeah.
thinking about.
just like the great filtersof what it could be, and what
would stop people from, beingable to expand in that way.
it would make sensepeople thinking that could
be a solution, right?
that entire thought of,Oh, you can just upload
and outlive the universe.
Yeah.
but, even if they were usinglike an artificial intelligence,
creating machines to go outand expand, like you said, we
(41:09):
would still see signs of that.
Jacob (41:11):
Yeah.
even if they never lefttheir solar system, if
they just built this Thatis something we would see.
Lucas (41:16):
Yeah,
Jacob (41:16):
because it would glow really bright in
the infrared spectrum butemit no visible light.
That's the telltalesign of a Dyson swarm.
Lucas (41:22):
Yeah, just putting off all of that heat, but having
none of that, because allthat energy is being absorbed.
Yeah, that definitelymakes sense.
Jacob (41:29):
I just wanted to cover that one last part and other
than that, I don't really haveanything else to add to this.
Lucas (41:34):
Yeah, I think that was a really interesting topic.
Yeah.
It's awesome.
Lucas, thanks for being here.
Thank you for having me, Jake.
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