April 7, 2025 • 34 mins
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Humanoid robots are no longer just the stuff of science fiction. They’re here, and they’re getting smarter, more capable, and more integrated into daily life. But what does that mean for the future of work, society, and even human identity? In this episode of Entropy Rising, Jacob and Lucas dive deep into the world of humanoid robotics, exploring their potential, challenges, and the massive implications they have for the economy and beyond.
We start by breaking down why humanoid robots make sense—why engineers and tech companies are pushing for robots with human-like bodies instead of simpler, specialized machines. The answer? Our world is built for humans. From navigating stairs to handling objects designed for human hands, robots that mimic our form have a built-in advantage when it comes to integration into homes, workplaces, and even healthcare.
But if robots can do everything we can—only better—what happens to human jobs? We explore the real economic risks of automation, whether universal basic income is a viable solution, and how a poorly managed transition could lead to the largest wealth transfer in history. Could we be facing a future where only a handful of people control all labor, while the rest of society is left struggling to find purpose? Or will robots free us from work and usher in a utopian era of creativity and leisure?
The conversation also touches on real-world applications beyond just replacing workers. From home healthcare to firefighting and emergency response, humanoid robots could save lives and transform entire industries. But there are risks—how do we make sure these machines are safe, ethical, and used responsibly?
And then there’s the big question: Are we heading toward a Blade Runner-style dystopia, or something closer to Star Trek? Jacob and Lucas weigh the possibilities and what needs to happen to ensure AI-driven automation benefits society instead of destabilizing it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lucas (00:00):
but realistically, when we get into thinking of this
(00:02):
utopian society, it's all justgoing to be luxury.
that's, I hope so, right?
Right.
You know, of course, it has thatchance of going Blade Runner?
Yeah, Blade Runner, right?
You have replicants and stuff islike, you know, it seems like it
should be utopian, but it'sactually dystopian.
Jacob (00:24):
Hello and welcome to Entropy Rising, where we talk
about science and futurism.
I'm your host to Jacob.
And as always, I'm here with mywonderful co host, Lucas.
Lucas, how are you doing today?
Lucas (00:34):
Doing wonderful, Jake.
How are you today?
Jacob (00:35):
I'm doing great.
You know, we're sitting hererecording.
I can never complain about that.
That's always a good day in mybook.
Lucas (00:40):
Absolutely.
Jacob (00:41):
So today's topic is humanoid robotics, which is
something we brought up that wewanted to talk about in our Q& A
episode.
And.
I think it's gonna be a fairlyinteresting discussion.
I know I always say that, but
Lucas (00:51):
yeah, no, it's a really exciting topic that I feel like
we're going to be getting into.
you see it a lot in the sciencefiction movies.
So I think it'll be a lot of funfor both us and our viewers.
Jacob (01:00):
Absolutely.
And a lot closer to home.
You know, we're typicallytalking about space and things
happening hundreds, maybe evenhundreds of thousands of years
away.
But this is really somethingthat We're already seeing now.
Lucas (01:09):
Something that we can all, either look forward to or
dread seeing in our future.
So, you know, humanoid robotshave been a staple of science
fiction since, even before itwas really called science
fiction.
I mean, clockwork men have beenaround in writings since the
late 1800s.
And, when you get a little moreadvanced, we start running into
traditional humanoid robots andworks like Asimov and, of
(01:31):
course, the Jetsons had a veryfamous one, Rosie.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, they're always taking upthese roles of, servitude or,
you see them in things like,Blade Runner or iRobot where
they take up a more crazydystopian approach.
Oh yeah, in science fiction theyhave, they span the gamut, but
you are right, they do come up alot in both positive and
negative lights.
Jacob (01:51):
But despite seeing humanoid robots in science
fiction for, well over a centuryat this point, we really haven't
seen humanoid robots break outinto real life, Which is crazy,
because robots have beencatching on for a while now.
I mean, robots on factory floorshave been around since, what,
like, the 70s is when thosereally started catching on?
And you had, robotic armsreplacing, workers.
(02:12):
And now it's gotten to the pointwhere we have some factories
that are almost fully automated.
But these aren't humanoidrobots, of course.
These are just robotic arms.
so it does beg the question, whyhumanoid robots, what advantage
do humanoid robots have, and arewe actually going to use these
in the real world, or are theystrictly science fiction?
Lucas (02:27):
that's definitely a great point.
I feel like the robots that arein the factories, like car
manufacturing and mostly you seethem a lot in metalworking,
welding, things like that.
They have their place.
but when we go into what a realfuture where robots can start
getting into the workforce andespecially getting into our
homes.
we view them as humanoid becausewe want them to be able to do
whatever we can do, but can't bethere to do at that time with
(02:50):
confidence.
Jacob (02:51):
That's a fair point.
our world is made for humans byhumans.
So mimicking the human form,while it does lead to a more
complex design overall, it meansit's going to work in any
environment.
Lucas (03:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
You see that a lot with stairs.
Yeah.
Would be one of the biggestdefeaters of robotics today.
if you have a flight of stairs,they either can't go up or can't
go down.
Jacob (03:10):
Oh yeah, so having a bipedal robot means that they
can interact in environmentsdesigned for humans, no problem.
And then by having a robot thathas, human hands with five
fingers, that's morecomplicated.
It means you don't need to goout and buy a variety of special
tools to go along with yourrobot.
it can already use everythingyou already own.
If you're a company, that couldsave you tens of thousands,
(03:32):
hundreds of thousands ofdollars.
Lucas (03:34):
Yeah.
Or, like you were saying in yourhome, cooking, that would be a
great example.
I love home cooked meals, butcooking is such a chore.
Yes.
Especially after a long workday.
they develop robots nowadaysthat are specialized for cooking
pre planned meals that can beput into a pot, but you still
have to do some of the work, andthen they're still messy, and
(03:54):
sometimes, or usually the foodisn't even that good.
Jacob (03:57):
I've seen those, and they're not very good.
It's like, basically a stirrerbuilt in, and the one I saw, you
still had to dice everythingyourself, and you loaded it into
pods, and it just dropped it in.
I really can't think of a way toautomate cooking without
essentially using a human form,two arms.
Lucas (04:11):
Exactly, because like you were saying, they can then
utilize all the tools that youalready have in your kitchen.
Your knives, your pots, yourpans, your oil, your food.
They can put it all together theway that you would want it to.
And really all that you have todo is pull a recipe off
Pinterest and give it to it.
Jacob (04:25):
you might not even need to do that.
most of these robots have sometype of AI built into them.
So if you just tell it, hey, Iwant some pasta.
It can go through, find a recipeor make one on its own and just
make it for you.
So you don't even need to thinkabout what you want.
Just tell it the general vibeyou're going for.
I want Italian food tonight.
And then it'll go find somethingmaybe even based on what it
knows about you, pick out arecipe and make it for you.
Lucas (04:46):
Yeah.
that is really the peak of whereyou get when it comes to
robotics, and that's whyhumanoid robotics, I feel like,
are The big thing that everybodylooks forward to
Jacob (04:55):
I agree I mean if I had to summarize it in a word I
would say why should we mimicthe human form is because that
gives you a general purposerobot that can do Pretty much
anything.
Yeah, if you want it to cook ifyou want it to clean if you want
it to go repair your car Pick
Lucas (05:09):
up your kids
Jacob (05:10):
from
Lucas (05:10):
school.
Jacob (05:10):
Yeah, exactly you know, we're talking about domestic
tasks right now, but this alsoapplies for businesses and
companies if you have arestaurant and you're trying to
automate a part of thatrestaurant, maybe a part of that
cooking process.
You might have to spend hundredsof thousands of dollars to build
an automated cooker, whatevercooking machine.
but you still need to employsomebody to maybe do the prep
work.
Whereas with a general purposerobot, it can do the prep work
(05:32):
and then it can use yourpreexisting grill, your
preexisting equipment.
You don't need to redesign yourkitchen around the station.
It'll just show up, do what youneed it to do around the clock.
No issues.
Lucas (05:42):
Yeah.
And When we're thinking aboutthat how are we going to be able
to program a machine that can goaround and make any device that
a human can make, handlematerials the way that they need
to be handled, like not grab a,an egg and just break it in its
hand.
It needs to have that tactilefeel.
it needs to be able to gothroughout your home, go up your
stairs, mow your yard, analyzeeverything around it.
(06:04):
What's going to go intosomething like that?
And really, what comes to mindis just artificial intelligence.
Jacob (06:10):
Yeah, I definitely think these robots are going to need
to have some sort of learningalgorithm built into it so that
you can interact with it in anatural way, having a humanoid
form does no good if you need tohave a highly experienced,
skilled programmer to show up toyour house and program every
single move this is going totake.
And that's a limitation with alot of robots right now, robotic
arms.
(06:30):
Yes, they replace a job, andthey're simpler once they're up
and running, but you need ahighly skilled operator to
program this thing to work.
And usually these things onlyhave a few axes of movement.
When you think of a humanoidrobot, how many different axes
of movement it has, there's noway that this is going to be
economical or useful unless,like you said, it has some type
of AI.
Where it can control itself.
(06:51):
You can show it how to dosomething or tell it to do
something.
And it can learn from its ownenvironment and figure it out
and do it itself.
Lucas (06:56):
Yeah.
when you think about robots now,especially robots that work in
the home, like Roombas.
will scan your home for you.
But their work is a verystraight line.
Yeah.
Drive around the barrier thatyou've created and suck up stuff
while you're doing that.
Where a robot, it could come inand it could scan your home,
figure out what's your kitchenand your living room.
But like you said, you'd have tohave a programmer come in and
(07:19):
teach it essentially how to makeevery single recipe, cut every
vegetable, walk up that certainflight of stairs.
it just, it's not going to belike that.
It's going to be somethingthat's going to be in your home.
Jacob (07:29):
Absolutely.
It needs to have some sort ofAI.
And I would say, even if it'snot going to be in your home,
even on an enterprise sense,like for businesses.
If you want to make this a massmarket appeal, what you really
need to do if you want to takeadvantage of economies of scale,
then it needs to be very userfriendly.
And that seems like a naturalplace to put something like a
natural language program where Ican tell it in English or
(07:51):
whatever language what to do andit can interpret what I mean by
its surroundings and then go dothat task.
That is definitely going to bethe dream of robotics, and that
is something I think we'requickly approaching.
Lucas (08:03):
Oh yeah, that's in the very near future.
I'd say 20, 2050 for sure.
Yeah,
Jacob (08:07):
I think so.
I think we could see that.
I mean, we're already basicallyseeing it now.
And really the biggestlimitation with these things for
the longest time has been bothbatteries and computational
power.
And both of those are quicklybeing solved.
Every single day we're makingstrives in both of those
categories.
Yeah.
Lucas (08:25):
Yeah, definitely.
Jacob (08:26):
Another thing to keep in mind when we're talking about
mimicking the human form is thatit also makes it easier to
accept socially.
we already know how to interactwith humans.
We're not surprised when we seea human doing something.
So having a robot that lookslike a human and acts like a
human, I think will also make iteasier for people just to
naturally understand how to doit and accept it as part of
their home or as part of theirlarger community.
(08:47):
I
Lucas (08:47):
mean, absolutely.
But that's a very blurred linewhen you talk about that.
Because if you have a robot thatmostly looks like a human and
mostly acts like a human, thenit's creepy.
There is an uncanny valley.
Jacob (09:00):
There's definitely an uncanny valley.
And I really think we shouldjust stay away from that and
just make these very robotlooking.
Lucas (09:06):
Yeah, I definitely agree.
And realistically, I feel likethat would be a lot more
acceptable.
We'll have something that almostyou won't feel bad for having to
do all this labor.
and then as far as, us startingto accept that into our
factories or in our workforce orin our homes, we already have,
it's been a silent handoff thatwe've been doing slowly since
(09:28):
the first Roomba came out, youknow, and even before then with
computers in our homes, thingslike that.
we're just giving these smalltasks, but very streamlined
tasks over to other things thatwill do it for us.
And, we're seeing it more now inour cars and our factories.
So, I definitely don't thinkit's going to be this huge
robots are going to come out ofnowhere and take over
everything.
We're already starting to acceptthat now.
Jacob (09:49):
Oh, absolutely.
And I do think the humanoid formcan help with that a little bit.
Especially if we design thesethings to look a little bit
more, rounded and friendlyversus trying to, I don't think
we should mimic humans too much,right?
Um, But, something you didmention earlier that I thought
was interesting was you pointedout that non humanoid robots
will still have a place insociety.
And I absolutely agree withthat.
(10:10):
I don't think humanoid robotsare going to be a one size fits
all solution.
And you're going to have to go acase by case basis and figure
out when do I need a humanoidrobot or when will a simpler
custom built machine do the samejob?
Yeah.
Because, when you're thinkingabout something like an assembly
line, for example, If you justneed to make the same weld on
the same piece of metal all day,every day, having a much more
(10:31):
complicated robot that has legsand articulating hands makes no
sense.
That's just a lot of extra costwhen a simpler, custom built
thing will do the same job,arguably even better and for
cheaper.
Lucas (10:42):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
When we're talking aboutapplications and factories, or
anything like that You don'tneed a robot that can do
everything.
You just need a robot that cando that thing.
Jacob (10:54):
Yeah, exactly.
when you read older sciencefiction, you will see humanoid
robots operating checkout kiosksat grocery stores and stuff like
that.
Of course, now we see that's notthe case.
That's not how you do it.
It's much simpler just to havean automated machine that people
can check themselves out in.
Yeah.
And I think that's also going tobe the case going forward.
while I do think there are a lotof tasks that only a humanoid
(11:15):
robot could do efficiently,there are also a fair amount of
tasks where you wouldn't needand or want a humanoid robot
just because why have the extracomplexity if you can get away
with not needing it?
Lucas (11:24):
Yeah, and the cost, and you would have to custom make it
for a lot of those positions.
Like, not every robot coming offthe line will have the ability
to use, welding equipmentbecause that could be something
that's very niche.
Yeah,
Jacob (11:35):
exactly.
don't think every humanoid robotis going to have the same level
of detail.
For example, you might not havea fully articulated hand for
every robot.
you know, hands are verycomplicated things.
So maybe they'll just have auniversal mount where you can
mount certain tools.
Lucas (11:48):
Absolutely.
Jacob (11:49):
but I can also see some specific jobs that humanoid
robots would do really well.
That's just not something that'sachievable without that type of
form.
Lucas (11:57):
what first comes to mind would be like healthcare.
Jacob (11:59):
yeah, I think healthcare alone will be revolutionized by
something like, humanoid robotsthat are affordable.
Lucas (12:03):
Yeah, a job they could fill really well would be like
in home healthcare.
Jacob (12:07):
Oh, yeah, that one would be a big one.
Lucas (12:09):
because, nobody wants to put their loved ones in a home,
but we have to do it bynecessity because you have to
continue your life.
You have a job and you have yourown family and children and You
can't provide the care that isneeded for those family members.
Jacob (12:22):
And it's also very expensive to hire round the
clock care.
Even if you want to keep them athome, a lot of people just can't
afford to do that.
Lucas (12:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
So if we had a robot that coulddo that and could do everything
else for you while it's doingthat, but it could even be more
specialized.
It could have.
a faceplate on it that coulddisplay, like smiling faces or
something that's lessfrightening to an elderly person
in your family, or they couldhave specialized hands that are
softer to the touch that bringcomfort to someone.
(12:50):
So I could definitely see
Jacob (12:51):
stuff like that.
I just also think having thesefor people living with
disabilities, having somethingthat's literally always there to
help you transfer in and out ofyour bed or to go and get you
things to make you food.
that would be a huge quality oflife improvement for many
people.
Oh yeah.
And a lot of people can't affordthat.
Uh, not to mention, you candefinitely see some subscription
models coming up for these,especially if you have these for
(13:12):
end of life care where they mayonly need to rent it for a few
years.
So you could have an insurancecompany that makes the initial
purchase for one of these, maybeit's expensive, maybe it's like
200, 000, but they're able touse it for 10, 15 years, when
you break that down over thelifetime of the unit.
Way cheaper than a nurse,especially if you were talking
about round the clock care, 24 7care.
Lucas (13:32):
Yeah, I mean it could replace, like you were saying, a
lot of what hospice brings topeople, where it's like you have
nursing staff that come andcheck on them and Provide them
with cleanings, things likethat.
the robot can maintain a lot ofthat, for whenever they need it.
Jacob (13:47):
Absolutely, and I think that would revolutionize,
healthcare in general, and justbring a huge quality of life
improvement for many people.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it wouldn't surprise me tosee these robots being used by
people who wouldn'ttraditionally get around the
clock care.
I'm thinking of elderly peoplewho are not at the point yet
where they need round the clockcare.
(14:07):
But if there's a cheap andreadily available source of
labor like a humanoid robot,then it might make sense to
start implementing it earlier tohelp maintain or do some jobs
they're not able to do anymore.
And it could also save lives.
I mean As someone's gettingolder, having a robot to clean
the gutters, so to speak, and,to take riskier activities that
they can no longer do.
that could really help minimizethe risk of falls, or to have a
(14:30):
robot there in case they dofall.
Yeah.
And it can now help them, um,maybe even provide some first
aid care, and then contact,emergency services.
How many lives do you think thatcould save alone?
Lucas (14:40):
it, yeah, it would be revolutionary.
It really would.
and they could go even furtherthan that and go into sensing,
changes in blood pressure,changes in heart rate, how your
metabolic rate's going and theycould sense diseases in you.
and at that point they couldeven move into the healthcare
field further, start working asdiagnosticians, nurses, like we
(15:02):
could use them everywhere.
Jacob (15:03):
Yeah, That's a great point.
If you've got these, healthcentric robots already, one
hand, they could help you bymaking you lunch and, caring for
your daily needs, but they mightalso be built in with a bunch of
diagnostic tools like you werementioning to give live, health
updates to a medical expert, ormaybe an AI model overseen by a
medical expert, that could alsoreally improve longevity of
people, and it might mean thatpeople are getting better
(15:25):
outcomes.
Thank you.
Basically round the clockmedical care and issues are
being brought up almost in realtime versus waiting for the next
checkup.
Lucas (15:33):
And I know, when we were talking a little earlier, you
were also talking about likefirst responders.
Oh yeah, that's a great one.
you know how they could beequipped with specialized
equipment to where they get offthe ambulance to an emergency
situation and they can Stabilizeand position and then,
administer all the medicationsthat would be needed to either
(15:55):
start the healing process, stopdamage, or make the person
comfortable in their lastmoments.
in that situation,
Jacob (16:02):
absolutely.
I mean, like you were saying,first aid would could be huge.
imagine how much kit a robot cancarry versus a human,
firefighting or rescuesituations.
You know, if you have a house onfire, firefighters have to risk
their life to go and saveanother person.
It would be nice if you couldhave the benefit of going and
trying to save that personwithout having to risk other
lives in the process.
(16:22):
Yeah.
I get into this, Okay.
Weird streak sometimes where Iwatch these cave diving videos
and if you watch these videos itis crazy how many times someone
gets trapped or lost in one ofthese caves and the first
responders also die trying tosave them.
Lucas (16:38):
Yeah, I mean that, I don't know about other people,
but my claustrophobia, Icouldn't get anywhere near, if
my friend were to get lost in acave, that's it.
Like I'm not going back.
Jacob (16:49):
But that's another example where I've seen some
where the person's even stillalive, but they have to do a
cost benefit analysis of wherethat person is located.
There's just too much of a riskto first responders to go get
them.
So we have to either wait forconditions to improve or.
You know say sorry so havingrobots that could take those
huge risks And still try to savepeople
Lucas (17:11):
would be huge and be more effective at saving people than
we would be
Jacob (17:14):
Yeah, it's funny We're talking about humanoid robots
and I still think those make alot of sense but you could also
have non humanoid forms forspecific situations like maybe
You know, to help dig throughrubble and stuff like that.
Lucas (17:25):
yeah.
And just like sense humanbodies, things like that.
And then, another applicationthat everybody sees in sci fi
movies, everywhere from StarWars to Blade Runner to really
just any movie in the future,you have police robots.
Jacob (17:39):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Lucas (17:40):
And military robots.
Jacob (17:41):
That definitely gets into a lot of ethical questions and
definitely, can lean toward theDystopian, but they don't
necessarily have to be there canbe some good uses for them.
Yeah, you know people do have torisk their lives in dangerous
situations, so Being able tosubdue someone who's trying to
harm others without puttinghumans in harm's way could be a
huge benefit
Lucas (18:01):
Yeah, I mean you gotta think you wouldn't want to make
a robot that would harm peopleEven if they were an offender,
because that sort of goesagainst what would make people
feel comfortable here at home.
If robots had the programmingability to go out there and
start harming people, then, butthis is definitely something
that we can touch on more later,but I just think that is a
concept that will be inevitableas well.
Jacob (18:23):
I definitely think that's going to happen, and I foresee
us doing an entire episode justtalking about the military
components of, robots, because,we already have drones and
stuff.
that is, uh Whole ethical bundleand I would love to dive into
it.
I think that's beyond the scopeof today's episode Yeah, we just
we
Lucas (18:38):
could definitely do just a whole episode on that
Jacob (18:40):
Yes, but just to say what we can in this episode I do
definitely think that's anotherapplication for these and 100
percent I think you would seeSome type of humanoid robotic
form enter militaries once theybecome cheap, especially once
they're cheaper than a normalsoldier
Lucas (18:55):
Absolutely,
Jacob (18:56):
just one last Real world application I can see for these
is when you think about the homehow much of our life is spent on
domestic tasks You know, youalready mentioned cooking but
also cleaning folding laundryAnd we have seen robots enter
the domestic market.
Roomba being a famous one.
I have a litter robot thathandles my cat's waste.
(19:16):
there's all kinds of robotsalready entering the domestic
market.
But there are certain tasks thatjust can't be automated
effectively for a home use.
If they can be, it's not, like Isaid, it's just not worth the
money.
Um, one that comes to mind forme is like folding laundry.
I think I saw there is a machinethat can fold laundry for you,
but it's like eight or 9,
Lucas (19:38):
000.
It is very expensive.
But when you think just talkingabout folding laundry for a
second, because I know we allhate it so much.
the average person spends 84days of their life folding
laundry.
That's crazy.
That's just folding laundry.
That's not putting it in thewasher, that's not putting it in
the dryer.
Just folding it.
That's absolutely insane.
(19:58):
those specialized robots, we'renot going to purchase those
because all that they can do isfold laundry.
But when you throw into accountthat if you were to buy a
humanoid robot that can doeverything for you, and just on
folding laundry, it saves you 84days of your life.
That's incredible.
Jacob (20:15):
That's, I fully agree and that was actually the point I
was going to make 9, 000 on arobot to fold laundry isn't
worth it, but 20, 000 on a robotthat can do everything,
including folding laundry, eventhough it's more expensive
overall, I think is a bettervalue proposition.
Lucas (20:29):
it's just crazy to think about because you're essentially
gaining years of your life back.
and that, that's just in, inyour home on doing these menial
tasks.
Jacob (20:39):
Yeah, no, I agree.
I think we're definitely goingto see these in the domestic
market and, I think it's goingto change how people live their
lives.
Lucas (20:46):
Yeah.
But now when we talk about,these robots and how expensive
they are, how affordable willthat actually be for the home?
Jacob (20:52):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I don't know the specific perunit cost right now.
I do know some companies havefloated around the 20, 000 to
30, 000 mark as a goal, whichsounds like a lot of money to be
fair.
It is, but I think that makessense.
If we can build these robots andsell them for the same price
that a car cost, for example, Ibelieve people would buy them in
droves.
Lucas (21:13):
Yeah.
especially if you can financethem.
Yeah.
Or Or lease them.
Or rent them.
Jacob (21:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, for what you wanna do,if we can take the car model and
apply it for robots.
I see no reason why peoplewouldn't do it.
I know people who already buycars.
They really shouldn't.
I think the average new car inAmerica or the average person
buys a car.
I think it's what, five to sevenyears is car ownership in
America.
Five to seven years.
Yeah.
Lucas (21:34):
Yeah.
I could definitely see that.
Jacob (21:35):
Weirdly enough, I could actually see humanoid robots
competing with cars in terms ofwhat people are buying.
People might choose not toupgrade their car opting instead
to buy one of these humanoidrobots because the value
proposition is huge.
Lucas (21:48):
Yeah.
And not just value that you'readding like back into your life,
but you now have all the sparetime where you could do side
ventures.
You can, fulfill a creativeoutlet.
You can start up a smallbusiness on the side, maybe
Jacob (22:00):
a podcast.
Lucas (22:01):
You could do a podcast.
Yeah, exactly.
You have all of this extra time,so you can see it as not just a
drain.
And, cars aren't drains either,they're of course investments as
well, because you have to beable to get places.
Jacob (22:13):
It's an investment in the sense that in America you have
to have one, but it isdefinitely a drain, it only
depreciates.
Lucas (22:18):
yes, but this humanoid robot actively adds not just
value, but time back to yourlife, which is one of the most
priceless things.
Jacob (22:24):
I absolutely agree, and even if the robot itself does
depreciate, the value it'sgiving to your life is, for me,
very worth it.
I would happily take on A carpayment, if that meant all of
the duties I didn't want to doare now gone.
Lucas (22:36):
Yeah, but that is, of course, assuming that they can
get it to that 20, 000 to 30,000 range.
a lot of the larger companies,they're saying that they can hit
that, but some of them are alsosaying for a robot that can
really do everything and do itwell, you're looking at 80, 000.
And at that point, it becomesmore unapproachable.
But when we were talking aboutthis and this was a while ago,
(22:57):
but you mentioned how therecould be like tears of the
robot, somebody, maybe right nowhas a humanoid robot in their
home that does some things.
but that robot was 200, 000 aslike a trial run.
But three years in the future,after a couple of updates, they
can now rent that out to otherpeople for a cheaper price.
And you'll essentially have.
(23:17):
People who have the newerversions and then used versions,
just like with cars.
Jacob (23:22):
Absolutely.
I could see that happening.
especially as these get moreestablished, there's going to be
a secondhand market, of course.
And you were mentioning thecost, how they were saying right
now, 80, 000 is the best theycan, they're reaching.
But another benefit of using thehumanoid form for robots is
because it's this generalpurpose you can tap into
multiple markets at once, youknow, a robot that can cook for
(23:44):
you can cook at a restaurant.
And that gives you hugeeconomies of scale.
you can definitely targetbusinesses to fund a bulk of the
initial startup cost.
And then eventually over time asthe equipment gets cheaper, re
market them a little bit, maybeless durable materials, for home
use.
Lucas (23:59):
I could absolutely see that.
it would just be difficultbecause those companies like
restaurants, I'm sure if they'rewilling to go with yours, they'd
be looking to maybe purchasefour or five at a discount from
the manufacturer.
That's true too.
But, um, but you could see themlike in, you know, Star Wars
movies, we see these old wornout droids that are used for
these more menial tasks.
(24:19):
And it definitely could end upbeing something like that where
cooking in restaurants, takingout trash, sweeping the floors
are done more by the older botsthat are given to them by people
who are just trying to sell themoff.
Jacob (24:30):
It does make me wonder how that'll change things like
going to restaurants though, ifyou can get the same quality of
food made for you in your ownhome.
Lucas (24:37):
That's actually a good point.
when we're talking about the hitthat these robots will have to
our economy, as far as likerestaurants and things, it's
going to be broad in so manyways.
Jacob (24:48):
Yeah.
Lucas (24:48):
but that's one that I have never really thought of.
I guess you would just be doingit for the atmosphere, but
realistically you could haveyour robots set you up a pretty
nice atmosphere just at home.
Jacob (24:58):
Absolutely.
I definitely think for likesocial situations, you might do
it, but I could definitely seepeople opting to go out less
because, why pay an extrasurcharge to have the same robot
make the same food at arestaurant versus just having
your robot that you've alreadypaid off and make it at home,
right?
Yeah.
Lucas (25:14):
they would have to start offering something more premium
to get more people to come out,but either way, it's good for
the consumer because you eitherspend less money by going out
less or you get a betterexperience by spending that
extra money.
Jacob (25:28):
Yeah, true.
it's definitely going to beinteresting to see how all that
plays out.
that does bring up a good pointthough.
'cause not only will people bemaybe less likely to go out and
engage in the economy if theyare, robot can handle making
this stuff at home.
But maybe they'll also be kickedout of the economy, right?
if you have robots that can doevery single job better,
cheaper, faster, is there a riskthat's just going to make humans
(25:50):
non competitive in the labormarket?
Lucas (25:52):
that is by far the biggest concern of everyone.
I'm sure it's the first thingthat crossed our viewers minds
when they looked up this,episode is, yeah, they sound
great, but What am I going to doto make money?
Because like you said, we have arobot that can do everything you
can do but better and cheaperfor these companies, then why?
Then why would they employpeople anymore?
(26:13):
And there are a few differentsolutions that, can be put in
place to this.
But it's either we're headingtowards a dystopian future or a
utopian.
Okay.
One where we can have theserobots do everything in the
workforce, all the jobs that wereally don't want to be doing.
And we get essentially like abase stipend or universal basic
(26:33):
income of some type.
And then we're able to just livecomfortably and express our more
creative side as humanindividuals.
Jacob (26:40):
Would definitely be, I think the best outcome here.
Absolutely.
Do you think that's realistic?
Lucas (26:44):
I definitely think that it could be, but there, of
course, the world is run withgreed, and, and, and power, and,
giving up that, essentiallytaking out the core fundamental
of human society, which is work,you,
Jacob (27:03):
Yeah, because there is definitely a concern that if you
invent humanoid robots that cando labor cheaper, there could
potentially be the largesttransfer of wealth to the top 1
percent or whatever.
ever seen.
we could potentially seehumongous, discrepancies between
the lower and upper class, androbots could play a role in
making that worse in the worstcase scenario.
Lucas (27:20):
Yeah, you would be essentially looking at people
who hold all the power and allthe wealth and then our entire
workforce who are reduced tonothing but desperation.
Jacob (27:30):
So that's also a concern.
I definitely think you could seesome sort of regulation behind
robots going forward.
I don't know necessarily if youwould have companies outright
ban robots.
maybe some will, there's a lotof countries out there.
but I think they're just, toogood, right?
I couldn't imagine us justcollectively deciding to ban
them.
Lucas (27:47):
Yeah, it's definitely a clear step into the future of
humanity and the way that weprogress because all the
advancements are too big to giveup on just because we can't
control a corporate greed or agovernment power trip.
Jacob (28:03):
I definitely don't foresee banning them being the
most popular option, I candefinitely see a situation maybe
where companies pay a tax forevery robot they have maybe as a
way to fund, like, a universalbasic income situation where
every time you have a robotreplace a human's job, you now
have to pay into a tax to Offsetthe cost of the government
funding that person.
Lucas (28:23):
Yeah, are we charging the company that produced the robot?
Or are we charging the companythat employed the robot?
Jacob (28:29):
True.
I feel like catching it at theend would make more sense.
Charging the company that isreplacing the job, right?
I could also see situationswhere maybe there's tax
incentives if you have a certainsize of human workforce, If you
have X amount of employees forevery certain amount of revenue
you produce, you get a taxbenefit.
Yeah.
And I mean, you can justify thattax benefit by saying that
(28:51):
you're helping the economy andyou're leading to the government
needing to support these peopleless.
So it would even make sense tocharge these companies less.
Lucas (28:58):
It definitely would.
And this is such a huge issuebecause when we think of
advancements in the past, wehad, checkout machines replace
clerks and we had, the computerreplace the typewriter, but
those have always created morejobs for us to go into.
with this, it's going to bedifferent.
Jacob (29:16):
It's everything.
Lucas (29:17):
Yes, it's not going to be those little jumps that create
new jobs.
This will be like moving fromthe candle to the light bulb.
We are essentially creating anew step into the future for
humanity, and we're going tohave to figure out a way to
balance that.
Jacob (29:33):
Yeah, there's a real risk we might actually just be
replacing ourselves, right?
Lucas (29:36):
yeah, we definitely could be.
And, you know, Don't even get mestarted on the AI uprising.
Jacob (29:41):
Well, yeah, it's funny you mention AI because it feels
like, you know, AI just came inover the last five years and is
a huge risk of replacing all thethinking jobs.
And now humanoid robots might becoming in to replace all the
manual jobs as well.
Lucas (29:52):
Yeah, when you think of it that way, what do we even do?
Yeah, I hope.
Why are we here?
I hope you're right.
Jacob (29:57):
I hope it's the, Utopian future where we get to pursue
passion and creativity andreally just do whatever we want
to do.
Cause I don't know about you.
I don't really enjoy going towork.
I would definitely, if I couldget rid of that, I would do it.
And I think most people wouldtoo, so long as I could still.
Lucas (30:15):
Yeah, of course, and that, that comes with all those
different issues that we broughtup before.
It also comes with humancompetitiveness.
a lot of people, they buy nicecars so that they can show off
their friends or they buy nicehouses.
They purchase nice things.
But if we're all on universalbasic income.
And it's not going to be, youmake more money, so you buy
(30:36):
this.
That's just what you decided tospend your amount on.
So maybe you have a nice car,but this guy has a really nice
kitchen in his house because hedecided to spend on a
renovation, things like that.
So
Jacob (30:47):
I always see universal basic income as like a basis,
but you can still earn moneyoutside of that.
Of
Lucas (30:51):
course.
Yeah.
Because people will always wantproducts made by people.
That's special, specialistartisans, content like podcast
videos.
Of course, we see out there allthe time on, YouTube and even in
some TV shows, you haveartificial intelligence that
creates everything.
And although it is informative,it's really not the same as
(31:13):
watching a human being presentthat information to you.
Jacob (31:16):
I fully agree.
You can go and buy custom madeshoes, handmade shoes, even
today, even though That's notthe cheapest option.
There's no reason to do it otherthan it's just nice to have.
there's a craftsmanship behindit.
And even if you have twoproducts that are around the
same amount of quality, whenmade by a person, when made by a
robot, the fact that human handsmade this will always carry a
(31:36):
certain amount of value topeople, I believe, as it should,
as a luxury though.
Lucas (31:40):
Yes.
Yeah, but realistically, when weget into thinking of this
utopian society, it's all justgoing to be luxury.
that's, I hope so, right?
Right.
You know, of course, it has thatchance of going Blade Runner?
Yeah, Blade Runner, right?
You have replicants and stuff islike, you know, it seems like it
should be utopian, but it'sactually dystopian.
And then it's, that's Mindbending thriller type thing.
(32:02):
We, we could live in that futuretoo.
Jacob (32:04):
I'm personally hoping we don't.
I would, I really wanted theStar Trek future, but it seems
like every day we're gettingfurther and further away from
that.
Yeah, though, I think mostpeople do miss the Star Trek
didn't get good until afterWorld War three.
So
Lucas (32:18):
Break some eggs to make an omelet.
Yeah, let's maybe
Jacob (32:21):
we don't want the Star Trek future.
We want our own future That'sutopian with robots and we're
free to make podcast all day.
Lucas (32:27):
wouldn't that be a beautiful?
Yeah, exactly
Jacob (32:31):
Well, Lucas, I think that's all I have to say about
humanoid robots.
How about you?
Lucas (32:35):
Yeah, I covered a lot, learned a lot from you.
I think that's, that's awesome.
Jacob (32:39):
Yeah, so I just want to let everyone know that We have
started a Patreon.
so if you want to support theshow, that's a great way to do
it.
You also get access to episodesa week before everyone else.
Lucas (32:49):
And of course, you know, if.
It's not something that you canafford, don't donate to that.
Please do not go broke
Jacob (32:54):
funding our podcast.
This is something we enjoydoing.
it's okay.
But if you do want to supportthe show and speed up our
ability to transition to thingslike adding video, that's a
great way to do it.
And like I said, you do getaccess to episodes a week early
and we're always going to betrying to find new benefits to
add there.
Yeah.
Lucas (33:10):
And we do appreciate anything that you do to help.
Thank you so much.
Jacob (33:13):
Absolutely.
Lucas, thank you so much forjoining today.
I hope everyone enjoyed theepisode.
Lucas (33:18):
Yeah.
Thank you for having me, Jake.
You have a great rest of yourday.
but realistically, when we get into thinking of this
(00:02):
utopian society, it's all justgoing to be luxury.
that's, I hope so, right?
Right.
You know, of course, it has thatchance of going Blade Runner?
Yeah, Blade Runner, right?
You have replicants and stuff islike, you know, it seems like it
should be utopian, but it'sactually dystopian.
Jacob (00:24):
Hello and welcome to Entropy Rising, where we talk
about science and futurism.
I'm your host to Jacob.
And as always, I'm here with mywonderful co host, Lucas.
Lucas, how are you doing today?
Lucas (00:34):
Doing wonderful, Jake.
How are you today?
Jacob (00:35):
I'm doing great.
You know, we're sitting hererecording.
I can never complain about that.
That's always a good day in mybook.
Lucas (00:40):
Absolutely.
Jacob (00:41):
So today's topic is humanoid robotics, which is
something we brought up that wewanted to talk about in our Q& A
episode.
And.
I think it's gonna be a fairlyinteresting discussion.
I know I always say that, but
Lucas (00:51):
yeah, no, it's a really exciting topic that I feel like
we're going to be getting into.
you see it a lot in the sciencefiction movies.
So I think it'll be a lot of funfor both us and our viewers.
Jacob (01:00):
Absolutely.
And a lot closer to home.
You know, we're typicallytalking about space and things
happening hundreds, maybe evenhundreds of thousands of years
away.
But this is really somethingthat We're already seeing now.
Lucas (01:09):
Something that we can all, either look forward to or
dread seeing in our future.
So, you know, humanoid robotshave been a staple of science
fiction since, even before itwas really called science
fiction.
I mean, clockwork men have beenaround in writings since the
late 1800s.
And, when you get a little moreadvanced, we start running into
traditional humanoid robots andworks like Asimov and, of
(01:31):
course, the Jetsons had a veryfamous one, Rosie.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, they're always taking upthese roles of, servitude or,
you see them in things like,Blade Runner or iRobot where
they take up a more crazydystopian approach.
Oh yeah, in science fiction theyhave, they span the gamut, but
you are right, they do come up alot in both positive and
negative lights.
Jacob (01:51):
But despite seeing humanoid robots in science
fiction for, well over a centuryat this point, we really haven't
seen humanoid robots break outinto real life, Which is crazy,
because robots have beencatching on for a while now.
I mean, robots on factory floorshave been around since, what,
like, the 70s is when thosereally started catching on?
And you had, robotic armsreplacing, workers.
(02:12):
And now it's gotten to the pointwhere we have some factories
that are almost fully automated.
But these aren't humanoidrobots, of course.
These are just robotic arms.
so it does beg the question, whyhumanoid robots, what advantage
do humanoid robots have, and arewe actually going to use these
in the real world, or are theystrictly science fiction?
Lucas (02:27):
that's definitely a great point.
I feel like the robots that arein the factories, like car
manufacturing and mostly you seethem a lot in metalworking,
welding, things like that.
They have their place.
but when we go into what a realfuture where robots can start
getting into the workforce andespecially getting into our
homes.
we view them as humanoid becausewe want them to be able to do
whatever we can do, but can't bethere to do at that time with
(02:50):
confidence.
Jacob (02:51):
That's a fair point.
our world is made for humans byhumans.
So mimicking the human form,while it does lead to a more
complex design overall, it meansit's going to work in any
environment.
Lucas (03:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
You see that a lot with stairs.
Yeah.
Would be one of the biggestdefeaters of robotics today.
if you have a flight of stairs,they either can't go up or can't
go down.
Jacob (03:10):
Oh yeah, so having a bipedal robot means that they
can interact in environmentsdesigned for humans, no problem.
And then by having a robot thathas, human hands with five
fingers, that's morecomplicated.
It means you don't need to goout and buy a variety of special
tools to go along with yourrobot.
it can already use everythingyou already own.
If you're a company, that couldsave you tens of thousands,
(03:32):
hundreds of thousands ofdollars.
Lucas (03:34):
Yeah.
Or, like you were saying in yourhome, cooking, that would be a
great example.
I love home cooked meals, butcooking is such a chore.
Yes.
Especially after a long workday.
they develop robots nowadaysthat are specialized for cooking
pre planned meals that can beput into a pot, but you still
have to do some of the work, andthen they're still messy, and
(03:54):
sometimes, or usually the foodisn't even that good.
Jacob (03:57):
I've seen those, and they're not very good.
It's like, basically a stirrerbuilt in, and the one I saw, you
still had to dice everythingyourself, and you loaded it into
pods, and it just dropped it in.
I really can't think of a way toautomate cooking without
essentially using a human form,two arms.
Lucas (04:11):
Exactly, because like you were saying, they can then
utilize all the tools that youalready have in your kitchen.
Your knives, your pots, yourpans, your oil, your food.
They can put it all together theway that you would want it to.
And really all that you have todo is pull a recipe off
Pinterest and give it to it.
Jacob (04:25):
you might not even need to do that.
most of these robots have sometype of AI built into them.
So if you just tell it, hey, Iwant some pasta.
It can go through, find a recipeor make one on its own and just
make it for you.
So you don't even need to thinkabout what you want.
Just tell it the general vibeyou're going for.
I want Italian food tonight.
And then it'll go find somethingmaybe even based on what it
knows about you, pick out arecipe and make it for you.
Lucas (04:46):
Yeah.
that is really the peak of whereyou get when it comes to
robotics, and that's whyhumanoid robotics, I feel like,
are The big thing that everybodylooks forward to
Jacob (04:55):
I agree I mean if I had to summarize it in a word I
would say why should we mimicthe human form is because that
gives you a general purposerobot that can do Pretty much
anything.
Yeah, if you want it to cook ifyou want it to clean if you want
it to go repair your car Pick
Lucas (05:09):
up your kids
Jacob (05:10):
from
Lucas (05:10):
school.
Jacob (05:10):
Yeah, exactly you know, we're talking about domestic
tasks right now, but this alsoapplies for businesses and
companies if you have arestaurant and you're trying to
automate a part of thatrestaurant, maybe a part of that
cooking process.
You might have to spend hundredsof thousands of dollars to build
an automated cooker, whatevercooking machine.
but you still need to employsomebody to maybe do the prep
work.
Whereas with a general purposerobot, it can do the prep work
(05:32):
and then it can use yourpreexisting grill, your
preexisting equipment.
You don't need to redesign yourkitchen around the station.
It'll just show up, do what youneed it to do around the clock.
No issues.
Lucas (05:42):
Yeah.
And When we're thinking aboutthat how are we going to be able
to program a machine that can goaround and make any device that
a human can make, handlematerials the way that they need
to be handled, like not grab a,an egg and just break it in its
hand.
It needs to have that tactilefeel.
it needs to be able to gothroughout your home, go up your
stairs, mow your yard, analyzeeverything around it.
(06:04):
What's going to go intosomething like that?
And really, what comes to mindis just artificial intelligence.
Jacob (06:10):
Yeah, I definitely think these robots are going to need
to have some sort of learningalgorithm built into it so that
you can interact with it in anatural way, having a humanoid
form does no good if you need tohave a highly experienced,
skilled programmer to show up toyour house and program every
single move this is going totake.
And that's a limitation with alot of robots right now, robotic
arms.
(06:30):
Yes, they replace a job, andthey're simpler once they're up
and running, but you need ahighly skilled operator to
program this thing to work.
And usually these things onlyhave a few axes of movement.
When you think of a humanoidrobot, how many different axes
of movement it has, there's noway that this is going to be
economical or useful unless,like you said, it has some type
of AI.
Where it can control itself.
(06:51):
You can show it how to dosomething or tell it to do
something.
And it can learn from its ownenvironment and figure it out
and do it itself.
Lucas (06:56):
Yeah.
when you think about robots now,especially robots that work in
the home, like Roombas.
will scan your home for you.
But their work is a verystraight line.
Yeah.
Drive around the barrier thatyou've created and suck up stuff
while you're doing that.
Where a robot, it could come inand it could scan your home,
figure out what's your kitchenand your living room.
But like you said, you'd have tohave a programmer come in and
(07:19):
teach it essentially how to makeevery single recipe, cut every
vegetable, walk up that certainflight of stairs.
it just, it's not going to belike that.
It's going to be somethingthat's going to be in your home.
Jacob (07:29):
Absolutely.
It needs to have some sort ofAI.
And I would say, even if it'snot going to be in your home,
even on an enterprise sense,like for businesses.
If you want to make this a massmarket appeal, what you really
need to do if you want to takeadvantage of economies of scale,
then it needs to be very userfriendly.
And that seems like a naturalplace to put something like a
natural language program where Ican tell it in English or
(07:51):
whatever language what to do andit can interpret what I mean by
its surroundings and then go dothat task.
That is definitely going to bethe dream of robotics, and that
is something I think we'requickly approaching.
Lucas (08:03):
Oh yeah, that's in the very near future.
I'd say 20, 2050 for sure.
Yeah,
Jacob (08:07):
I think so.
I think we could see that.
I mean, we're already basicallyseeing it now.
And really the biggestlimitation with these things for
the longest time has been bothbatteries and computational
power.
And both of those are quicklybeing solved.
Every single day we're makingstrives in both of those
categories.
Yeah.
Lucas (08:25):
Yeah, definitely.
Jacob (08:26):
Another thing to keep in mind when we're talking about
mimicking the human form is thatit also makes it easier to
accept socially.
we already know how to interactwith humans.
We're not surprised when we seea human doing something.
So having a robot that lookslike a human and acts like a
human, I think will also make iteasier for people just to
naturally understand how to doit and accept it as part of
their home or as part of theirlarger community.
(08:47):
I
Lucas (08:47):
mean, absolutely.
But that's a very blurred linewhen you talk about that.
Because if you have a robot thatmostly looks like a human and
mostly acts like a human, thenit's creepy.
There is an uncanny valley.
Jacob (09:00):
There's definitely an uncanny valley.
And I really think we shouldjust stay away from that and
just make these very robotlooking.
Lucas (09:06):
Yeah, I definitely agree.
And realistically, I feel likethat would be a lot more
acceptable.
We'll have something that almostyou won't feel bad for having to
do all this labor.
and then as far as, us startingto accept that into our
factories or in our workforce orin our homes, we already have,
it's been a silent handoff thatwe've been doing slowly since
(09:28):
the first Roomba came out, youknow, and even before then with
computers in our homes, thingslike that.
we're just giving these smalltasks, but very streamlined
tasks over to other things thatwill do it for us.
And, we're seeing it more now inour cars and our factories.
So, I definitely don't thinkit's going to be this huge
robots are going to come out ofnowhere and take over
everything.
We're already starting to acceptthat now.
Jacob (09:49):
Oh, absolutely.
And I do think the humanoid formcan help with that a little bit.
Especially if we design thesethings to look a little bit
more, rounded and friendlyversus trying to, I don't think
we should mimic humans too much,right?
Um, But, something you didmention earlier that I thought
was interesting was you pointedout that non humanoid robots
will still have a place insociety.
And I absolutely agree withthat.
(10:10):
I don't think humanoid robotsare going to be a one size fits
all solution.
And you're going to have to go acase by case basis and figure
out when do I need a humanoidrobot or when will a simpler
custom built machine do the samejob?
Yeah.
Because, when you're thinkingabout something like an assembly
line, for example, If you justneed to make the same weld on
the same piece of metal all day,every day, having a much more
(10:31):
complicated robot that has legsand articulating hands makes no
sense.
That's just a lot of extra costwhen a simpler, custom built
thing will do the same job,arguably even better and for
cheaper.
Lucas (10:42):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
When we're talking aboutapplications and factories, or
anything like that You don'tneed a robot that can do
everything.
You just need a robot that cando that thing.
Jacob (10:54):
Yeah, exactly.
when you read older sciencefiction, you will see humanoid
robots operating checkout kiosksat grocery stores and stuff like
that.
Of course, now we see that's notthe case.
That's not how you do it.
It's much simpler just to havean automated machine that people
can check themselves out in.
Yeah.
And I think that's also going tobe the case going forward.
while I do think there are a lotof tasks that only a humanoid
(11:15):
robot could do efficiently,there are also a fair amount of
tasks where you wouldn't needand or want a humanoid robot
just because why have the extracomplexity if you can get away
with not needing it?
Lucas (11:24):
Yeah, and the cost, and you would have to custom make it
for a lot of those positions.
Like, not every robot coming offthe line will have the ability
to use, welding equipmentbecause that could be something
that's very niche.
Yeah,
Jacob (11:35):
exactly.
don't think every humanoid robotis going to have the same level
of detail.
For example, you might not havea fully articulated hand for
every robot.
you know, hands are verycomplicated things.
So maybe they'll just have auniversal mount where you can
mount certain tools.
Lucas (11:48):
Absolutely.
Jacob (11:49):
but I can also see some specific jobs that humanoid
robots would do really well.
That's just not something that'sachievable without that type of
form.
Lucas (11:57):
what first comes to mind would be like healthcare.
Jacob (11:59):
yeah, I think healthcare alone will be revolutionized by
something like, humanoid robotsthat are affordable.
Lucas (12:03):
Yeah, a job they could fill really well would be like
in home healthcare.
Jacob (12:07):
Oh, yeah, that one would be a big one.
Lucas (12:09):
because, nobody wants to put their loved ones in a home,
but we have to do it bynecessity because you have to
continue your life.
You have a job and you have yourown family and children and You
can't provide the care that isneeded for those family members.
Jacob (12:22):
And it's also very expensive to hire round the
clock care.
Even if you want to keep them athome, a lot of people just can't
afford to do that.
Lucas (12:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
So if we had a robot that coulddo that and could do everything
else for you while it's doingthat, but it could even be more
specialized.
It could have.
a faceplate on it that coulddisplay, like smiling faces or
something that's lessfrightening to an elderly person
in your family, or they couldhave specialized hands that are
softer to the touch that bringcomfort to someone.
(12:50):
So I could definitely see
Jacob (12:51):
stuff like that.
I just also think having thesefor people living with
disabilities, having somethingthat's literally always there to
help you transfer in and out ofyour bed or to go and get you
things to make you food.
that would be a huge quality oflife improvement for many
people.
Oh yeah.
And a lot of people can't affordthat.
Uh, not to mention, you candefinitely see some subscription
models coming up for these,especially if you have these for
(13:12):
end of life care where they mayonly need to rent it for a few
years.
So you could have an insurancecompany that makes the initial
purchase for one of these, maybeit's expensive, maybe it's like
200, 000, but they're able touse it for 10, 15 years, when
you break that down over thelifetime of the unit.
Way cheaper than a nurse,especially if you were talking
about round the clock care, 24 7care.
Lucas (13:32):
Yeah, I mean it could replace, like you were saying, a
lot of what hospice brings topeople, where it's like you have
nursing staff that come andcheck on them and Provide them
with cleanings, things likethat.
the robot can maintain a lot ofthat, for whenever they need it.
Jacob (13:47):
Absolutely, and I think that would revolutionize,
healthcare in general, and justbring a huge quality of life
improvement for many people.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it wouldn't surprise me tosee these robots being used by
people who wouldn'ttraditionally get around the
clock care.
I'm thinking of elderly peoplewho are not at the point yet
where they need round the clockcare.
(14:07):
But if there's a cheap andreadily available source of
labor like a humanoid robot,then it might make sense to
start implementing it earlier tohelp maintain or do some jobs
they're not able to do anymore.
And it could also save lives.
I mean As someone's gettingolder, having a robot to clean
the gutters, so to speak, and,to take riskier activities that
they can no longer do.
that could really help minimizethe risk of falls, or to have a
(14:30):
robot there in case they dofall.
Yeah.
And it can now help them, um,maybe even provide some first
aid care, and then contact,emergency services.
How many lives do you think thatcould save alone?
Lucas (14:40):
it, yeah, it would be revolutionary.
It really would.
and they could go even furtherthan that and go into sensing,
changes in blood pressure,changes in heart rate, how your
metabolic rate's going and theycould sense diseases in you.
and at that point they couldeven move into the healthcare
field further, start working asdiagnosticians, nurses, like we
(15:02):
could use them everywhere.
Jacob (15:03):
Yeah, That's a great point.
If you've got these, healthcentric robots already, one
hand, they could help you bymaking you lunch and, caring for
your daily needs, but they mightalso be built in with a bunch of
diagnostic tools like you werementioning to give live, health
updates to a medical expert, ormaybe an AI model overseen by a
medical expert, that could alsoreally improve longevity of
people, and it might mean thatpeople are getting better
(15:25):
outcomes.
Thank you.
Basically round the clockmedical care and issues are
being brought up almost in realtime versus waiting for the next
checkup.
Lucas (15:33):
And I know, when we were talking a little earlier, you
were also talking about likefirst responders.
Oh yeah, that's a great one.
you know how they could beequipped with specialized
equipment to where they get offthe ambulance to an emergency
situation and they can Stabilizeand position and then,
administer all the medicationsthat would be needed to either
(15:55):
start the healing process, stopdamage, or make the person
comfortable in their lastmoments.
in that situation,
Jacob (16:02):
absolutely.
I mean, like you were saying,first aid would could be huge.
imagine how much kit a robot cancarry versus a human,
firefighting or rescuesituations.
You know, if you have a house onfire, firefighters have to risk
their life to go and saveanother person.
It would be nice if you couldhave the benefit of going and
trying to save that personwithout having to risk other
lives in the process.
(16:22):
Yeah.
I get into this, Okay.
Weird streak sometimes where Iwatch these cave diving videos
and if you watch these videos itis crazy how many times someone
gets trapped or lost in one ofthese caves and the first
responders also die trying tosave them.
Lucas (16:38):
Yeah, I mean that, I don't know about other people,
but my claustrophobia, Icouldn't get anywhere near, if
my friend were to get lost in acave, that's it.
Like I'm not going back.
Jacob (16:49):
But that's another example where I've seen some
where the person's even stillalive, but they have to do a
cost benefit analysis of wherethat person is located.
There's just too much of a riskto first responders to go get
them.
So we have to either wait forconditions to improve or.
You know say sorry so havingrobots that could take those
huge risks And still try to savepeople
Lucas (17:11):
would be huge and be more effective at saving people than
we would be
Jacob (17:14):
Yeah, it's funny We're talking about humanoid robots
and I still think those make alot of sense but you could also
have non humanoid forms forspecific situations like maybe
You know, to help dig throughrubble and stuff like that.
Lucas (17:25):
yeah.
And just like sense humanbodies, things like that.
And then, another applicationthat everybody sees in sci fi
movies, everywhere from StarWars to Blade Runner to really
just any movie in the future,you have police robots.
Jacob (17:39):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Lucas (17:40):
And military robots.
Jacob (17:41):
That definitely gets into a lot of ethical questions and
definitely, can lean toward theDystopian, but they don't
necessarily have to be there canbe some good uses for them.
Yeah, you know people do have torisk their lives in dangerous
situations, so Being able tosubdue someone who's trying to
harm others without puttinghumans in harm's way could be a
huge benefit
Lucas (18:01):
Yeah, I mean you gotta think you wouldn't want to make
a robot that would harm peopleEven if they were an offender,
because that sort of goesagainst what would make people
feel comfortable here at home.
If robots had the programmingability to go out there and
start harming people, then, butthis is definitely something
that we can touch on more later,but I just think that is a
concept that will be inevitableas well.
Jacob (18:23):
I definitely think that's going to happen, and I foresee
us doing an entire episode justtalking about the military
components of, robots, because,we already have drones and
stuff.
that is, uh Whole ethical bundleand I would love to dive into
it.
I think that's beyond the scopeof today's episode Yeah, we just
we
Lucas (18:38):
could definitely do just a whole episode on that
Jacob (18:40):
Yes, but just to say what we can in this episode I do
definitely think that's anotherapplication for these and 100
percent I think you would seeSome type of humanoid robotic
form enter militaries once theybecome cheap, especially once
they're cheaper than a normalsoldier
Lucas (18:55):
Absolutely,
Jacob (18:56):
just one last Real world application I can see for these
is when you think about the homehow much of our life is spent on
domestic tasks You know, youalready mentioned cooking but
also cleaning folding laundryAnd we have seen robots enter
the domestic market.
Roomba being a famous one.
I have a litter robot thathandles my cat's waste.
(19:16):
there's all kinds of robotsalready entering the domestic
market.
But there are certain tasks thatjust can't be automated
effectively for a home use.
If they can be, it's not, like Isaid, it's just not worth the
money.
Um, one that comes to mind forme is like folding laundry.
I think I saw there is a machinethat can fold laundry for you,
but it's like eight or 9,
Lucas (19:38):
000.
It is very expensive.
But when you think just talkingabout folding laundry for a
second, because I know we allhate it so much.
the average person spends 84days of their life folding
laundry.
That's crazy.
That's just folding laundry.
That's not putting it in thewasher, that's not putting it in
the dryer.
Just folding it.
That's absolutely insane.
(19:58):
those specialized robots, we'renot going to purchase those
because all that they can do isfold laundry.
But when you throw into accountthat if you were to buy a
humanoid robot that can doeverything for you, and just on
folding laundry, it saves you 84days of your life.
That's incredible.
Jacob (20:15):
That's, I fully agree and that was actually the point I
was going to make 9, 000 on arobot to fold laundry isn't
worth it, but 20, 000 on a robotthat can do everything,
including folding laundry, eventhough it's more expensive
overall, I think is a bettervalue proposition.
Lucas (20:29):
it's just crazy to think about because you're essentially
gaining years of your life back.
and that, that's just in, inyour home on doing these menial
tasks.
Jacob (20:39):
Yeah, no, I agree.
I think we're definitely goingto see these in the domestic
market and, I think it's goingto change how people live their
lives.
Lucas (20:46):
Yeah.
But now when we talk about,these robots and how expensive
they are, how affordable willthat actually be for the home?
Jacob (20:52):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I don't know the specific perunit cost right now.
I do know some companies havefloated around the 20, 000 to
30, 000 mark as a goal, whichsounds like a lot of money to be
fair.
It is, but I think that makessense.
If we can build these robots andsell them for the same price
that a car cost, for example, Ibelieve people would buy them in
droves.
Lucas (21:13):
Yeah.
especially if you can financethem.
Yeah.
Or Or lease them.
Or rent them.
Jacob (21:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, for what you wanna do,if we can take the car model and
apply it for robots.
I see no reason why peoplewouldn't do it.
I know people who already buycars.
They really shouldn't.
I think the average new car inAmerica or the average person
buys a car.
I think it's what, five to sevenyears is car ownership in
America.
Five to seven years.
Yeah.
Lucas (21:34):
Yeah.
I could definitely see that.
Jacob (21:35):
Weirdly enough, I could actually see humanoid robots
competing with cars in terms ofwhat people are buying.
People might choose not toupgrade their car opting instead
to buy one of these humanoidrobots because the value
proposition is huge.
Lucas (21:48):
Yeah.
And not just value that you'readding like back into your life,
but you now have all the sparetime where you could do side
ventures.
You can, fulfill a creativeoutlet.
You can start up a smallbusiness on the side, maybe
Jacob (22:00):
a podcast.
Lucas (22:01):
You could do a podcast.
Yeah, exactly.
You have all of this extra time,so you can see it as not just a
drain.
And, cars aren't drains either,they're of course investments as
well, because you have to beable to get places.
Jacob (22:13):
It's an investment in the sense that in America you have
to have one, but it isdefinitely a drain, it only
depreciates.
Lucas (22:18):
yes, but this humanoid robot actively adds not just
value, but time back to yourlife, which is one of the most
priceless things.
Jacob (22:24):
I absolutely agree, and even if the robot itself does
depreciate, the value it'sgiving to your life is, for me,
very worth it.
I would happily take on A carpayment, if that meant all of
the duties I didn't want to doare now gone.
Lucas (22:36):
Yeah, but that is, of course, assuming that they can
get it to that 20, 000 to 30,000 range.
a lot of the larger companies,they're saying that they can hit
that, but some of them are alsosaying for a robot that can
really do everything and do itwell, you're looking at 80, 000.
And at that point, it becomesmore unapproachable.
But when we were talking aboutthis and this was a while ago,
(22:57):
but you mentioned how therecould be like tears of the
robot, somebody, maybe right nowhas a humanoid robot in their
home that does some things.
but that robot was 200, 000 aslike a trial run.
But three years in the future,after a couple of updates, they
can now rent that out to otherpeople for a cheaper price.
And you'll essentially have.
(23:17):
People who have the newerversions and then used versions,
just like with cars.
Jacob (23:22):
Absolutely.
I could see that happening.
especially as these get moreestablished, there's going to be
a secondhand market, of course.
And you were mentioning thecost, how they were saying right
now, 80, 000 is the best theycan, they're reaching.
But another benefit of using thehumanoid form for robots is
because it's this generalpurpose you can tap into
multiple markets at once, youknow, a robot that can cook for
(23:44):
you can cook at a restaurant.
And that gives you hugeeconomies of scale.
you can definitely targetbusinesses to fund a bulk of the
initial startup cost.
And then eventually over time asthe equipment gets cheaper, re
market them a little bit, maybeless durable materials, for home
use.
Lucas (23:59):
I could absolutely see that.
it would just be difficultbecause those companies like
restaurants, I'm sure if they'rewilling to go with yours, they'd
be looking to maybe purchasefour or five at a discount from
the manufacturer.
That's true too.
But, um, but you could see themlike in, you know, Star Wars
movies, we see these old wornout droids that are used for
these more menial tasks.
(24:19):
And it definitely could end upbeing something like that where
cooking in restaurants, takingout trash, sweeping the floors
are done more by the older botsthat are given to them by people
who are just trying to sell themoff.
Jacob (24:30):
It does make me wonder how that'll change things like
going to restaurants though, ifyou can get the same quality of
food made for you in your ownhome.
Lucas (24:37):
That's actually a good point.
when we're talking about the hitthat these robots will have to
our economy, as far as likerestaurants and things, it's
going to be broad in so manyways.
Jacob (24:48):
Yeah.
Lucas (24:48):
but that's one that I have never really thought of.
I guess you would just be doingit for the atmosphere, but
realistically you could haveyour robots set you up a pretty
nice atmosphere just at home.
Jacob (24:58):
Absolutely.
I definitely think for likesocial situations, you might do
it, but I could definitely seepeople opting to go out less
because, why pay an extrasurcharge to have the same robot
make the same food at arestaurant versus just having
your robot that you've alreadypaid off and make it at home,
right?
Yeah.
Lucas (25:14):
they would have to start offering something more premium
to get more people to come out,but either way, it's good for
the consumer because you eitherspend less money by going out
less or you get a betterexperience by spending that
extra money.
Jacob (25:28):
Yeah, true.
it's definitely going to beinteresting to see how all that
plays out.
that does bring up a good pointthough.
'cause not only will people bemaybe less likely to go out and
engage in the economy if theyare, robot can handle making
this stuff at home.
But maybe they'll also be kickedout of the economy, right?
if you have robots that can doevery single job better,
cheaper, faster, is there a riskthat's just going to make humans
(25:50):
non competitive in the labormarket?
Lucas (25:52):
that is by far the biggest concern of everyone.
I'm sure it's the first thingthat crossed our viewers minds
when they looked up this,episode is, yeah, they sound
great, but What am I going to doto make money?
Because like you said, we have arobot that can do everything you
can do but better and cheaperfor these companies, then why?
Then why would they employpeople anymore?
(26:13):
And there are a few differentsolutions that, can be put in
place to this.
But it's either we're headingtowards a dystopian future or a
utopian.
Okay.
One where we can have theserobots do everything in the
workforce, all the jobs that wereally don't want to be doing.
And we get essentially like abase stipend or universal basic
(26:33):
income of some type.
And then we're able to just livecomfortably and express our more
creative side as humanindividuals.
Jacob (26:40):
Would definitely be, I think the best outcome here.
Absolutely.
Do you think that's realistic?
Lucas (26:44):
I definitely think that it could be, but there, of
course, the world is run withgreed, and, and, and power, and,
giving up that, essentiallytaking out the core fundamental
of human society, which is work,you,
Jacob (27:03):
Yeah, because there is definitely a concern that if you
invent humanoid robots that cando labor cheaper, there could
potentially be the largesttransfer of wealth to the top 1
percent or whatever.
ever seen.
we could potentially seehumongous, discrepancies between
the lower and upper class, androbots could play a role in
making that worse in the worstcase scenario.
Lucas (27:20):
Yeah, you would be essentially looking at people
who hold all the power and allthe wealth and then our entire
workforce who are reduced tonothing but desperation.
Jacob (27:30):
So that's also a concern.
I definitely think you could seesome sort of regulation behind
robots going forward.
I don't know necessarily if youwould have companies outright
ban robots.
maybe some will, there's a lotof countries out there.
but I think they're just, toogood, right?
I couldn't imagine us justcollectively deciding to ban
them.
Lucas (27:47):
Yeah, it's definitely a clear step into the future of
humanity and the way that weprogress because all the
advancements are too big to giveup on just because we can't
control a corporate greed or agovernment power trip.
Jacob (28:03):
I definitely don't foresee banning them being the
most popular option, I candefinitely see a situation maybe
where companies pay a tax forevery robot they have maybe as a
way to fund, like, a universalbasic income situation where
every time you have a robotreplace a human's job, you now
have to pay into a tax to Offsetthe cost of the government
funding that person.
Lucas (28:23):
Yeah, are we charging the company that produced the robot?
Or are we charging the companythat employed the robot?
Jacob (28:29):
True.
I feel like catching it at theend would make more sense.
Charging the company that isreplacing the job, right?
I could also see situationswhere maybe there's tax
incentives if you have a certainsize of human workforce, If you
have X amount of employees forevery certain amount of revenue
you produce, you get a taxbenefit.
Yeah.
And I mean, you can justify thattax benefit by saying that
(28:51):
you're helping the economy andyou're leading to the government
needing to support these peopleless.
So it would even make sense tocharge these companies less.
Lucas (28:58):
It definitely would.
And this is such a huge issuebecause when we think of
advancements in the past, wehad, checkout machines replace
clerks and we had, the computerreplace the typewriter, but
those have always created morejobs for us to go into.
with this, it's going to bedifferent.
Jacob (29:16):
It's everything.
Lucas (29:17):
Yes, it's not going to be those little jumps that create
new jobs.
This will be like moving fromthe candle to the light bulb.
We are essentially creating anew step into the future for
humanity, and we're going tohave to figure out a way to
balance that.
Jacob (29:33):
Yeah, there's a real risk we might actually just be
replacing ourselves, right?
Lucas (29:36):
yeah, we definitely could be.
And, you know, Don't even get mestarted on the AI uprising.
Jacob (29:41):
Well, yeah, it's funny you mention AI because it feels
like, you know, AI just came inover the last five years and is
a huge risk of replacing all thethinking jobs.
And now humanoid robots might becoming in to replace all the
manual jobs as well.
Lucas (29:52):
Yeah, when you think of it that way, what do we even do?
Yeah, I hope.
Why are we here?
I hope you're right.
Jacob (29:57):
I hope it's the, Utopian future where we get to pursue
passion and creativity andreally just do whatever we want
to do.
Cause I don't know about you.
I don't really enjoy going towork.
I would definitely, if I couldget rid of that, I would do it.
And I think most people wouldtoo, so long as I could still.
Lucas (30:15):
Yeah, of course, and that, that comes with all those
different issues that we broughtup before.
It also comes with humancompetitiveness.
a lot of people, they buy nicecars so that they can show off
their friends or they buy nicehouses.
They purchase nice things.
But if we're all on universalbasic income.
And it's not going to be, youmake more money, so you buy
(30:36):
this.
That's just what you decided tospend your amount on.
So maybe you have a nice car,but this guy has a really nice
kitchen in his house because hedecided to spend on a
renovation, things like that.
So
Jacob (30:47):
I always see universal basic income as like a basis,
but you can still earn moneyoutside of that.
Of
Lucas (30:51):
course.
Yeah.
Because people will always wantproducts made by people.
That's special, specialistartisans, content like podcast
videos.
Of course, we see out there allthe time on, YouTube and even in
some TV shows, you haveartificial intelligence that
creates everything.
And although it is informative,it's really not the same as
(31:13):
watching a human being presentthat information to you.
Jacob (31:16):
I fully agree.
You can go and buy custom madeshoes, handmade shoes, even
today, even though That's notthe cheapest option.
There's no reason to do it otherthan it's just nice to have.
there's a craftsmanship behindit.
And even if you have twoproducts that are around the
same amount of quality, whenmade by a person, when made by a
robot, the fact that human handsmade this will always carry a
(31:36):
certain amount of value topeople, I believe, as it should,
as a luxury though.
Lucas (31:40):
Yes.
Yeah, but realistically, when weget into thinking of this
utopian society, it's all justgoing to be luxury.
that's, I hope so, right?
Right.
You know, of course, it has thatchance of going Blade Runner?
Yeah, Blade Runner, right?
You have replicants and stuff islike, you know, it seems like it
should be utopian, but it'sactually dystopian.
And then it's, that's Mindbending thriller type thing.
(32:02):
We, we could live in that futuretoo.
Jacob (32:04):
I'm personally hoping we don't.
I would, I really wanted theStar Trek future, but it seems
like every day we're gettingfurther and further away from
that.
Yeah, though, I think mostpeople do miss the Star Trek
didn't get good until afterWorld War three.
So
Lucas (32:18):
Break some eggs to make an omelet.
Yeah, let's maybe
Jacob (32:21):
we don't want the Star Trek future.
We want our own future That'sutopian with robots and we're
free to make podcast all day.
Lucas (32:27):
wouldn't that be a beautiful?
Yeah, exactly
Jacob (32:31):
Well, Lucas, I think that's all I have to say about
humanoid robots.
How about you?
Lucas (32:35):
Yeah, I covered a lot, learned a lot from you.
I think that's, that's awesome.
Jacob (32:39):
Yeah, so I just want to let everyone know that We have
started a Patreon.
so if you want to support theshow, that's a great way to do
it.
You also get access to episodesa week before everyone else.
Lucas (32:49):
And of course, you know, if.
It's not something that you canafford, don't donate to that.
Please do not go broke
Jacob (32:54):
funding our podcast.
This is something we enjoydoing.
it's okay.
But if you do want to supportthe show and speed up our
ability to transition to thingslike adding video, that's a
great way to do it.
And like I said, you do getaccess to episodes a week early
and we're always going to betrying to find new benefits to
add there.
Yeah.
Lucas (33:10):
And we do appreciate anything that you do to help.
Thank you so much.
Jacob (33:13):
Absolutely.
Lucas, thank you so much forjoining today.
I hope everyone enjoyed theepisode.
Lucas (33:18):
Yeah.
Thank you for having me, Jake.
You have a great rest of yourday.
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